And who's fault do you think that is? Do you really believe it's CCP's responsibility to fix this pickle GS is in? They blow up low end miners. Now they're short on low end minerals. Of course they're going to have a hell of a time recruiting low end miners. It'd be na+»ve to think otherwise. Some how they need to fix this themselves. But of course, the easiest solution is to whine to CCP to fix it for them .

And now we know you are delusional.
Lets slap you with some real numbers.
Tippia says 68,000 slots in High sec. Sounds good enough for me.
Assumption. 50% are empty. You all go on about how so many slots are empty if you move away from the trade hubs. So sounds a reasonable ratio.
You also go on about how no significant industry (Exception, Caps/Supers) happens outside of high.

So. 34,000 slots supply New Eden, meaning 34,000 slots for over 500,000 players.

Goons are less than 50,000 players. So less than 10% of EVE. Lets assume for a minute you were 50,000 though to take a massively high end figure. Not sure if that is the alliance or the entire coalition.

34,000*10% = 3,400.
3,400 slots required to supply the Goons.
This is 10-15 Amarr outposts with industrial upgrades. Depending how efficiently you use the slots bonus times. Given goons, I imagine you would manage them pretty well, so lets say 10. (420 maximum potential per outpost, so I'm allowing for about 25% inefficiency here already)
Goons have what, 220 Sov systems between the alliance?
So.... That's about 1 outpost per 20 systems you control. You have 90 outposts already for that matter. So that's 1 Amarr outpost per 9 outposts you ALREADY HAVE.

So..... You are trying to convince me that you don't have a place for the industrialists? The Numbers show you are either lying, or simply haven't tried to provide for them. And are just trying to get High Sec nerfed into the ground so you can make even more isk.

As I have told you seven times now, null sec products are more expensive than importing high sec products. It doesnt matter how many slots you give us so long as high sec has near no costs they will beat us on price and thus, industry in null is not an option.

Terrible

As I have told you seven times now, null sec products are more expensive than importing high sec products. It doesnt matter how many slots you give us so long as high sec has near no costs they will beat us on price and thus, industry in null is not an option.

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us.

We dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends.

Nothing clicks yet?

And this attitude of yours is why you're in the situation you're in. CCP doesn't need to intervene in this problem of yours. The solution is staring you right in the face and you refuse to acknowledge it.

A quick scan in Heimatar where I currently am shows over 50% slots are empty.

But, lets say you are right that it's a terrible assumption and lets assume every single slot in High Sec is being used to maximum capacity....

*Sigh* no its terrible because you say you are going to use figures then through a wild assumtion into the equation

If I was asked to make any call Id say it was closer to 80% free capacity.


Again Ill say, if you think that industry in Null is limited primarily by line availability, you know nothing about Null Sec operations

Without hard figures on free capacity I have to make an assumption there however. And I chose to go on the high useage side. Rather than assume a high free capacity and then have nullbears complain that I was underestimating how much was going on. If you are right and it's 80% free, that means even fewer Amarr stations are needed (All of 4 needed for the entire of the goons to be accurate). Which makes it even easier for Null.

Certainly it's not the only bottleneck, minerals is the other bottleneck, but they can solve that bottleneck without any changes to the game since they already have significant advantages in that field. They just have to stop treating miners & industrialists like dirt. And overcome the years they have built up treating them like such.

Confirmed; you can build an Archon with a production line and some minerals

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Confirmed you didn't bother reading the discussion. Where we are specifically NOT DISCUSSING CAPS.
Since Caps can't be built in high sec anyway. So aren't part of any 'high sec vs null sec' discussion to begin with.
We are discussing sub caps & modules here.

My prediction: Suddenly EVE becomes much more fun, and a better game in general.

I am still reading through the last few pages, but I just wanted to comment that the statement a couple pages back that you should slowboat jump freighters is in the top 5 stupidest things I have ever heard on this forum.

I'd imagine it would be even cheaper to import human capital. Import miners and industrialists to nullsec. Show them the wonders of the untamed wilds of New Eden. Care for them as you would any investment. Pay them an honest wage. And stop shooting at them.

The reason this would be difficult is that you and others in Null have spent the past 5 years or more being shitboxes to these people.

You're asking for CCP to step in and modify game mechanics because you simply can't be bothered to be ******* nice to people.

Emergent gameplay does not always have to involve asshattery. It can also involve actually building an Empire and not something that resembles Somalia.

This. Jeebus, this! If CCP could do anything to make Null more attractive, it would put in mechanisms to punish asshat's, even in Null. To me, all the (interesting) talk about outposts, profit margins, techniques and so on are vastly over-shadowed by the plain and simple fact that there are too many freaking jerks in the game. People who find it 'fun' to !!HTFU!! and stomp all over what someone else is doing to have fun. In a GAME.

I am itching to see null. Never even been close to it before. It's a part of the game that is walled off to me due to the fact that I am unwilling to allow other gamers to ruin my fun. What *I* consider fun, not what *they* think I should think is fun.

Umm.... maybe we haven't highlighted enough the part where the Alliance is guarding the industrialist effort?

This is your problem, since you don't seem to accept what kind of game EVE is. Where i'm from, 'games' are played aggressively and competitively, whether it's the Friday night high school football game or the back yard barbeque Dominoes showdown between me and my cousins lol.

EVE is such a competitive game. It was made with pvp interactions in mind. Your choice to play a game like this when you obviously believe that the people who are playing the game as designed are being 'jerks' demonstrates how mentally unsuited you are to the game.

I honestly marvel at people like you (and there are a lot). I get that different people like different things, but why people would choose to be a misfit in any situation they pay for (and you attitudes about the game and it's players common gameplay make you a misfit) is just so amazing.

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

So you're saying this is the aspect you like about EVE, yet it's the aspect you're asking them to remove.
Not that we didn't know this before, but it bears repeating: you're a moron.

And in the spirit of that competition, what people are saying is "we can't win". "It is impossible to win". "So CCP needs to take their stuff away".

What they're asking for is to not have the entirety of the production in the game dictated by highsec by virtue of NPC slots being superior to player owned ones.

That is not unreasonable.

Have you thought about why they are supierior?.....

One thing I've seen too is the assumption that miners in null will spend more time in stations than mining since they'd have to bail when a red pop's into local. Umm.... maybe we haven't highlighted enough the part where the Alliance is guarding the industrialist effort? That Roq fleet isn't solo out there. They'd be guarded by some soft of defense force, either immediately in the area, or on a gate close by.

This is the part where the Alliance would have to strive to be better than your standard blop fleet. Tactics, strategy, leadership at all levels, etc. Even still there would certainly be mining losses. But all of this would be a grand effort at PGC that has never before been seen in Eve (as best as I know having scanned the intertubes). There might have been efforts to make this happen, but nothing at the level that's being talked about here. This is the kind of thing that immortalizes character names.

What they're asking for is to not have the entirety of the production in the game dictated by highsec by virtue of NPC slots being superior to player owned ones.

That is not unreasonable.

Maybe the industrialist corp is renting the system and this includes security?

Also, being a Nullsec version of Concord has it's own rewards. Pride in keeping your charges alive. Stature in the community (good, not bad). A challenge of your skills at combat, tactics, and strategy. And cheaper ships and gear (since the cost to manufacture out there is less when industrialists are able to do what they do instead of sit around waiting for red's to leave the system)!

First it should be pointed out that this game *needs* carebears. Where else would you get your minerals? Pretty hard to pvp effectively in a mining ship. If every carebear in the game left, you would be starved for easy targets, then once you had eaten through the ore reserves and stockpiled gear, the game would die. It's perfectly appropriate for people like me to play this game.

Secondly, the people guarding the carebears in Eve (realistically, that just means they happen to be in a ship not designed for engaging in combat) are part of the Alliance, and I presume the Alliance income covers the effort. Maybe the industrialist corp is renting the system and this includes security? Also, being a Nullsec version of Concord has it's own rewards. Pride in keeping your charges alive. Stature in the community (good, not bad). A challenge of your skills at combat, tactics, and strategy. And cheaper ships and gear (since the cost to manufacture out there is less when industrialists are able to do what they do instead of sit around waiting for red's to leave the system)!

I thought it was established that Null had even more manufacturing capacity than highsec? That the problem was the asshats in null?

It was also pointed out that refining is inferior to highsec, and I agree that this should be at least normalized. I would support a small 5% or so efficiency rate over highsec. Remember, null has all the ore that highsec has, plus more. **IF** it was safer to get....

Do you have a clue what "renting" means?