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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 4746	Posted - 2014.01.17 08:12:00 - [511] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Andski wrote: No **** the hiseccers in this thread would be crying murder if this affected their precious L4/incursion rewards it would be even worse in high sec, you can't even stop some one stealing your payouts. :concord: a flat nerf to income would be better for everyone than the ESS. Like I said before, 15 km or closer to an ESS in high sec should flag you as suspect. It only makes sense. Oh and warp disrupted too. .
Dave Stark 4209	Posted - 2014.01.17 08:23:00 - [512] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Andski wrote: No **** the hiseccers in this thread would be crying murder if this affected their precious L4/incursion rewards it would be even worse in high sec, you can't even stop some one stealing your payouts. :concord: a flat nerf to income would be better for everyone than the ESS. Like I said before, 15 km or closer to an ESS in high sec should flag you as suspect. It only makes sense. Oh and warp disrupted too. that would have to happen. still the ESS isn't an interesting deployable. it doesn't provide fun for anyone, in it's current form. well, ok, it might provide entertainment for 1-2 people using it as a way to harass players but beyond that there's no fun or interesting gameplay to be had from it. that's before we even get past the fact that having an extra character ratting is better than deploying it and guarding it. the numbers, and possibly mechanics really need a revision.
Treborr MintingtonJr Quantum Reality R n D Spaceship Samurai 136	Posted - 2014.01.17 08:25:00 - [513] - Quote GÇó The ESS has a warp bubble with a radius of 15km. Warping to the ESS brings you to the edge of the bubble. This warp bubble has exactly the same functionality as a normal one. Sorry what is the point of this, as much as I love the interceptor being -->"Immune"<-- to bubbles, I'm assuming this is still the case even with these bubbles? Again what is the point of this? Any thief in their right mind would use an interceptor when stealing so this pretty much the same as 0 protection. Make the bubble bigger and change it so interceptors can't warp to zero. How about making the ESS hackable? I'd be willing to live with these damn deployables if they are a challenge to steal...
Rastafarian God 6	Posted - 2014.01.17 08:48:00 - [514] - Quote Andski wrote: No ** the hiseccers in this thread would be crying murder if this affected their precious L4/incursion rewards To be fair, incursions pay out a bit better then L4's but still. I can see the comparison to a L4 but Incursions take more organization to do then ratting does. Ide rather rat in null where Im blue then trust a shiny to a bunch of strangers in the area. But that's besides the point. NO ONE likes it when its harder to make money. Everyone will *. Also if this module where to be implemented in high sec, it would be chaos. You would almost have to program it with a limited engagement timer and it would just turn into a gank fest. I personally am not a fan of this deployable myself but I am having a hard time telling the people that dont like the deployable from the people that just want to *** about Interceptors.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 4746	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:26:00 - [515] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Andski wrote: No **** the hiseccers in this thread would be crying murder if this affected their precious L4/incursion rewards it would be even worse in high sec, you can't even stop some one stealing your payouts. :concord: a flat nerf to income would be better for everyone than the ESS. Like I said before, 15 km or closer to an ESS in high sec should flag you as suspect. It only makes sense. Oh and warp disrupted too. that would have to happen. still the ESS isn't an interesting deployable. it doesn't provide fun for anyone, in it's current form. well, ok, it might provide entertainment for 1-2 people using it as a way to harass players but beyond that there's no fun or interesting gameplay to be had from it. that's before we even get past the fact that having an extra character ratting is better than deploying it and guarding it. the numbers, and possibly mechanics really need a revision. If the ESS can be used in all space; then it would be in constant use in high sec, especially mission hubs. Which means all those mission runners go from 100% to 80% while the other 20% is constantly battled over by those brave enough. "But I am in null, why should I care?" Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. .
Kimmi Chan Tastes Like Purple 588	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:33:00 - [516] - Quote TharOkha wrote: There would less rage if this ESS would be deployable in hisec and lowsec too. I could not agree more. Making this thing a nullsec only thing just seems like a slap in the face. I am a highsec carebear and I am not stupid enough not to recognize this. Andski wrote: No ** the hiseccers in this thread would be crying murder if this affected their precious L4/incursion rewards I've already gone on record a couple of times that a nerf of 5% or even 10% does not bother me. I recognize that I am a faucet. I've also stated multiple times in this thread that this, as well as the general direction that TeamSuperFriends is going with all of these ill conceived deplorable structures, just seems unnecessary and mildly ****. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has.**
Treborr MintingtonJr Quantum Reality R n D Spaceship Samurai 136	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:35:00 - [517] - Quote Just to stop, enhance and or reduce this ~~arguement~~ discussion about putting the ESS in highsec, you forget it has a warp bubble around it...
Fix Sov 31	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:37:00 - [518] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: If the ESS can be used in all space; then it would be in constant use in high sec, especially mission hubs. Which means all those mission runners go from 100% to 80% while the other 20% is constantly battled over by those brave enough. "But I am in null, why should I care?" Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. Except for if the ESS was usable in hisec, the isk which has been siphoned off wouldn't be lost, it would just not necessarily go to the mission runners. The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Dave Stark 4209	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:38:00 - [519] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. last i saw, 90m/hour was the best you'd get from anoms in null. that's still less than 80% of current incursion income (before lp). i'm hardly going to risk my incursion ship to try and get a bit of isk out of a deployable structure when i'm still earning more than any other activity that involves shooting red crosses while watching netflix. so what i'm really saying is; the structure still isn't fun, i'm just losing income. an across the board income nerf is less hassle and achieves the exact same thing.
Lugalbandak Anunnaku Warfare Corp. 415	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:40:00 - [520] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: oh wow I think I got my pubbies mixed up, sorry you all look the same to me The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back

Infinity Ziona Cloakers 1432	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:41:00 - [521] - Quote Vald Tegor wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: No its not anecdotal evidence. Yes, it is. Quote: The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases By definition your personal findings will always be just that - anecdotal evidence. A) Your sample size is no where near representative to determine an average income B) Your sample is not representative of a typical case of a null sec resident You personally camp an entire constellation of hostile space 23/7 with 10 accounts. Your findings are completely irrelevant to the topic. Take a constellation, move in to it with a few hundred guys, then after a few months we can start calculating average income per member per unit of time spent securing that income. You need to edumudicate yourself a bit :) Anecdotal evidence generally refers to a 'story' told regarding an event. "I was walking along a track and was abducted and anal probed by strange alien hillbillies". They provide no hard evidence, such as used anal probes or odd burn marks attributable to possible still fitted spacecraft. Sample size is irrelevant given some data is better than no data, which is what you offer. Data representative of the average null seccers is the opposite of what we need since my stance is that your income is being deliberately curtailed by your voluntary restrictions against utilizing other peoples space due to your bluing every and all in your area out of fear. Don't try to out science me unless you know what basic science is actually about.
Kimmi Chan Tastes Like Purple 589	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:56:00 - [522] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: It is very important that if the ESS is to be released, it can be used in all space and affect all PvE, sans mining I guess. If that is not possible, then it needs to be put on hold until it can be properly implemented. I think this says it all. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has.
AngelFood 20	Posted - 2014.01.17 09:57:00 - [523] - Quote Did they fix control towers yet? Will ess bring more people to null?
March rabbit Federal Defense Union 1179	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:00:00 - [524] - Quote did i miss something in this 26 pages thread? We all know that no 0.0 seccers actually make money in 0.0 because "Incursions and lvl4s are more profitable" => all 0.0 seccers make money in high-sec. This makes ESS totally useless module which cannot hurt anyone. What is all this fluff about now? The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lugalbandak Anunnaku Warfare Corp. 415	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:00:00 - [525] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. last i saw, 90m/hour was the best you'd get from anoms in null. that's still less than 80% of current incursion income (before lp). i'm hardly going to risk my incursion ship to try and get a bit of isk out of a deployable structure when i'm still earning more than any other activity that involves shooting red crosses while watching netflix. so what i'm really saying is; the structure still isn't fun, i'm just losing income. an across the board income nerf is less hassle and achieves the exact same thing. yeah had about 90m a hour in my renting time (-0.02 system) the better isk i got from escalation but thats not always a giving. what you think if ess was possible to deploy ervywhere , still no fun structure? The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Arkady Romanov GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 50	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:02:00 - [526] - Quote March rabbit wrote: did i miss something in this 26 pages thread? We all know that no 0.0 seccers actually make money in 0.0 because "Incursions and lvl4s are more profitable" => all 0.0 seccers make money in high-sec. This makes ESS totally useless module which cannot hurt anyone. What is all this fluff about now? It started with a 5% nullsec rat bounty nerf as a means to try and push the use of the deployable. That annoyed people. Then there was the argument about why you would risk 20% of your income (after you spent 30mill on the deployable) for the chance to claw back that 5%. Pretty much any reasonable argument has already been made, and a great many unreasonable ones too.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 4748	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:03:00 - [527] - Quote Fix Sov wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: If the ESS can be used in all space; then it would be in constant use in high sec, especially mission hubs. Which means all those mission runners go from 100% to 80% while the other 20% is constantly battled over by those brave enough. "But I am in null, why should I care?" Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. Except for if the ESS was usable in hisec, the isk which has been siphoned off wouldn't be lost, it would just not necessarily go to the mission runners. Yes, it would go to players fighting over it. .
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 4748	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:05:00 - [528] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. last i saw, 90m/hour was the best you'd get from anoms in null. that's still less than 80% of current incursion income (before lp). i'm hardly going to risk my incursion ship to try and get a bit of isk out of a deployable structure when i'm still earning more than any other activity that involves shooting red crosses while watching netflix. so what i'm really saying is; the structure still isn't fun, i'm just losing income. an across the board income nerf is less hassle and achieves the exact same thing. Just because YOU don't get involved in the combat aound the ESS does not mean it isn't fun. .
Dave Stark 4210	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:05:00 - [529] - Quote Lugalbandak wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. last i saw, 90m/hour was the best you'd get from anoms in null. that's still less than 80% of current incursion income (before lp). i'm hardly going to risk my incursion ship to try and get a bit of isk out of a deployable structure when i'm still earning more than any other activity that involves shooting red crosses while watching netflix. so what i'm really saying is; the structure still isn't fun, i'm just losing income. an across the board income nerf is less hassle and achieves the exact same thing. yeah had about 90m a hour in my renting time (-0.02 system) the better isk i got from escalation but thats not always a giving. what you think if ess was possible to deploy ervywhere , still no fun structure? not really, i'd still be earning more than null sec so all this basically would be is a nerf to income and a structure to ignore. it wouldn't generate gameplay it'd just mean i'd have to do boring stuff for longer. that really is the underlying issue; the structure just isn't fun. it's making the most tedious part of the game even more tedious.
Dave Stark 4210	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:06:00 - [530] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Easy, with a reduced income from mission runners to 80% it means your 95% is an actual boost to null space. That is of course if you choose to just kill all ESS. So essentially as long as the ESS can go in any space, it is a buff to null. last i saw, 90m/hour was the best you'd get from anoms in null. that's still less than 80% of current incursion income (before lp). i'm hardly going to risk my incursion ship to try and get a bit of isk out of a deployable structure when i'm still earning more than any other activity that involves shooting red crosses while watching netflix. so what i'm really saying is; the structure still isn't fun, i'm just losing income. an across the board income nerf is less hassle and achieves the exact same thing. Just because YOU don't get involved in the combat aound the ESS does not mean it isn't fun. yeah considering 1 person gets the payout for multiple 40 man fleets, the ratio of people having fun vs people not having fun is kinda off there... by a lot.

Xen Solarus Inner 5phere 832	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:06:00 - [531] - Quote Personally, i love it. Even more so with all these null tears. Seems like a great content generator, and i imagine it will cause more than a few fights. What's not to love? We're talking about 5% here..... not exactly game breaking. If you really feel that strongly then don't use them, suck it up, and HTFU. Keep up the good work CCP! Oh, and fix the damn POS' already!!! Post with your main, like a BOSS!
Dave Stark 4210	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:09:00 - [532] - Quote is it me or is the whole "it's good" crowd basically justifying it being good because null sec people are pointing out it's bad, rather than that it's going to actually introduce any interesting and meaningful gameplay? cos i mean, almost every post i see saying "i love it" is almost immediately followed by "nullbear tears" or some variation.
March rabbit Federal Defense Union 1179	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:09:00 - [533] - Quote Arkady Romanov wrote: March rabbit wrote: did i miss something in this 26 pages thread? We all know that no 0.0 seccers actually make money in 0.0 because "Incursions and lvl4s are more profitable" => all 0.0 seccers make money in high-sec. This makes ESS totally useless module which cannot hurt anyone. What is all this fluff about now? It started with a 5% nullsec rat bounty nerf as a means to try and push the use of the deployable. That annoyed people. again: no one makes money in 0.0 anyway. People should not care about it Arkady Romanov wrote: Then there was the argument about why you would risk 20% of your income (after you spent 30mill on the deployable) for the chance to claw back that 5%. +5s implants give you small increase in SP for 5x price faction/deadspace modules give you small increase of 'something' for up to 100x price over T1/T2 when you pimp your pvp ship you increase your cost by times and chance to win by percentages. This is Eve after all. Nothing special with ESS The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jessica Danikov Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 242	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:13:00 - [534] - Quote Fix Lag wrote: Jessica Danikov wrote: I love how, with one forum post, someone believes they speak for thousands of players who are all in agreement. Actually, if you so much as read the feedback thread, you'd see where I'm coming from with that statement. I think there's a big distinction from 'there are people from all these organisations that think it's a bad idea, or have been convinced of such' and being able to talk for all those organisations as their spokesperson or indicating that they are 'all in agreement'. I, for one, like the ESS- especially for all the tears it's generating. I also happen to be part of one of the organisations you listed (for which, internally, opinion on the ESS is divided). Ergo, I can say with certainty that they are not all in agreement. Even without my alliance, there are a number of people who aren't crying over the ESS who belong to other organisations listed as well, so the whole presumption that all those alliances are rising up together in unison in opposition to the ESS is total bullshit and you seem like a presumptive twit for trying to sell that little fiction. I'm just amazed at how the EVE community can seem like a bunch of petulant children sometimes, petrified of change and out to cast themselves as martyrs upon the scales of balancing. The ESS is most epic come-uppance CCP has ever thought of- all the bitter vets who assert their right to impose PVP on others, the concept that 'undocking is consent to PVP', the hardcore nature of nullsec, all that hot air, are now bitterly whining that PVP is being imposed on them when they rat and run anoms. The idea that ratting is risky is a joke- for every stupid loss, there's billions of ISK being made effortlessly. With the ESS CCP are posing the challenge- take a 5% hit, or put some up to gamble in PVP, should anyone come along and try to take it. The general response reveals a great many nullbears' true nature- risk adverse and massively self-entitled, to the point that they'd rather try and throw their political weight around to block such a change rather than adapt. That hypocrisy makes me hope the ESS makes it in- the hilarious reality is it'll probably end up being a gimmick module that you rarely see and all this fuss is just over a measly 5% reduction in some of the best active income in the game (it's soloable and can earn you over 100m ISK/h if done right with minimal risk, it doesn't get much better than that).
Fix Sov 31	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:14:00 - [535] - Quote Xen Solarus wrote: Personally, i love it. Even more so with all these null tears. Seems like a great content generator, and i imagine it will cause more than a few fights. What's not to love? Uh, "great content generator"? In which universe? I've yet to see a single reason for why I should bother to deploy one in any system I were to rat in (not that I rat, but whatever, let's go with it), because we're just talking about a 5% reduction in ticks if the system's ESS-less, it's a 30m investment with a chance of a minor extra payout, which can be stolen by anyone, be they blue, red or neutral. And if an ESS is deployed and someone I don't know comes into system, regardless of color, I might as well assume he's going to go to the ESS and press the button, i.e. I might as well assume a 80% payout instead of 95% payout of today's value. So yeah, not seeing a single reason for why I should bother with an ESS in any way, shape or form, and chances are they'll be banned from most large entities' space to reduce the amount of bullshit drama they would induce over absolutely nothing. The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Vald Tegor Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team 102	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:15:00 - [536] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Vald Tegor wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: No its not anecdotal evidence. Yes, it is. Quote: The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases By definition your personal findings will always be just that - anecdotal evidence. A) Your sample size is no where near representative to determine an average income B) Your sample is not representative of a typical case of a null sec resident You personally camp an entire constellation of hostile space 23/7 with 10 accounts. Your findings are completely irrelevant to the topic. Take a constellation, move in to it with a few hundred guys, then after a few months we can start calculating average income per member per unit of time spent securing that income. You need to edumudicate yourself a bit :) Anecdotal evidence generally refers to a 'story' told regarding an event. "I was walking along a track and was abducted and anal probed by strange alien hillbillies". They provide no hard evidence, such as used anal probes or odd burn marks attributable to possible still fitted spacecraft. Sample size is irrelevant given some data is better than no data, which is what you offer. Data representative of the average null seccers is the opposite of what we need since my stance is that your income is being deliberately curtailed by your voluntary restrictions against utilizing other peoples space due to your bluing every and all in your area out of fear. Don't try to out science me unless you know what basic science is actually about. A story, such as you saying "I ran this site once and got this loot". While your picture might prove the existence of aliens, it does nothing to scientifically prove an abduction rate in the general world population. There is no curtailing of income by voluntary restrictions. It's population density. A single high sec system can support hundreds of concurrent mission runners. You "claim" a dozen systems for yourself with 10 accounts, fail to divide the income by 10 and schedule your entire life around opportune times to run the sites. Then claim to be representative of the average player's income capability. By the letter of what your experiment has "proven", all of Deklein can support a grand total of 7 players with 10 accounts each doing what you do. And making less than 40 mil per hour per account while at it, requiring 23/7 vigilance. Meanwhile, a single level 4 agent can supply not only 70, but north of 700 people with significantly more than 40 mil / hour. In a casual environment with perfect safety. Sounds like null needs a hefty buff. Especially since you have proven how easily this scarce income source can be stolen away from the residents.
Fix Sov 32	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:19:00 - [537] - Quote Jessica Danikov wrote: I, for one, like the ESS- especially for all the tears it's generating. Why? I've seen it touted as a "small gang objective" or a part of the "farms and fields initiative", but it's anything but. For one, it won't be deployed in great numbers, secondly it's not really a small gang objective, and thirdly it's not worth the hassle or the drama it'll invariably bring. If it had been setup so that a system without the ESS (or whatever the module would be called) had been severely reduced in its payouts, and a small gang could either go in and reinforce it, hack it or otherwise mess with it and either reduce the payouts or, maybe even redirect the part of the bounties which would otherwise be paid to the guys who shot the rat ... to them, for the duration of the reinforcement/hack/whatever timer, then it would be a small gang objective or a part of the farms and fields initiative, and it would be something which would be worth deploying. The suggestion CCP came up with, however, isn't. The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Barry Kring Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:32:00 - [538] - Quote I honestly think the idea is perfect for highsec. Make the bubble a bit bigger and everything inside it is fair game, no concord zone. Null has maybe 2-3 ratters per system at best, in hs you can multiply that by 10 meaning significant money worth fighting for.
Lugalbandak Anunnaku Warfare Corp. 415	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:37:00 - [539] - Quote Barry Kring wrote: I honestly think the idea is perfect for highsec. Make the bubble a bit bigger and everything inside it is fair game, no concord zone. Null has maybe 2-3 ratters per system at best, in hs you can multiply that by 10 meaning significant money worth fighting for. im still figuring out wy its only for 0.0, low sec = low sec but in high it could be a nice conflict driver maybe, maybe ccp respons soon. The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Layla Firoue Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 22	Posted - 2014.01.17 10:52:00 - [540] - Quote Lugalbandak wrote: Barry Kring wrote: I honestly think the idea is perfect for highsec. Make the bubble a bit bigger and everything inside it is fair game, no concord zone. Null has maybe 2-3 ratters per system at best, in hs you can multiply that by 10 meaning significant money worth fighting for. im still figuring out wy its only for 0.0, low sec = low sec but in high it could be a nice conflict driver maybe, maybe ccp respons soon. Because in high sec you can not shoot people without them being flagged criminal a.k.a blinky red or CONCORD will fry your ass first, something you can do in 0.0/low sec. So unless there is a huge no CONCORD zone around the structure no one could guard or defend it properly unlike in 0.0/low sec. If you can not grasp that.......



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