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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12254
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 08:42:00 -
[2071] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:You know what I don't get, I loot some scrap worth 300 isk from some wreck the guy probably doesn't even want, and everyone can blow me to bits for 15 mins, but I go around scanning ships and sizing them up for a loss that can go into the Billions of ISK and no suspect flag, not even for 10 seconds, and the scan is pretty much instant giving the mark no chance to resist. How convenient.
Who comes up with this stuff, everyone knows that in EVE the real fight happens before the shooting starts.
You stole something, the scanner did no harm to anyone.
Thats the difference. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
763
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 08:58:00 -
[2072] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:Something which should make you PvPers happy.
I've decided to stay off the forum until I've had a chance to test Kronos with my newest character.
Since that character is still drastically underskilled for the hostile enviorment I perceive High sec now is for solo miners, that will be at least 2 months. T2 shield tank takes less than 12 days to train. Add to that hull upgrades IV, spaceship command V and evasive maneuvering IV and you're ready to go. Remove insurance. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7609
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 10:20:00 -
[2073] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:You know what I don't get, I loot some scrap worth 300 isk from some wreck the guy probably doesn't even want, and everyone can blow me to bits for 15 mins, but I go around scanning ships and sizing them up for a loss that can go into the Billions of ISK and no suspect flag, not even for 10 seconds, and the scan is pretty much instant giving the mark no chance to resist. How convenient.
Who comes up with this stuff, everyone knows that in EVE the real fight happens before the shooting starts. You stole something, the scanner did no harm to anyone. Thats the difference.
I honestly don't know why people think that just crying about it is going to get CCP to attach a mechanical punishment to something that is inherently a non hostile mechanic. Is it a meta hostile mechanic? Yep. But you can't attach mechanical punishments to it because of that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
19502
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 12:17:00 -
[2074] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote: ...Q-ships... If such a thing came to pass, I'd give it about 10 minutes before the a ganker uses one to kill a miner, and about 30 seconds after that the recipient of the gank will be raging in local and/or on the forums.
Most miners can't be bothered to use, or learn to use, the tools they already have. They wouldn't use q-ships either.
Be careful what you wish for, some of the stuff people have asked CCP for in the past has come to pass, and backfired hilariously on the people who asked for it.
Nil mortifi sine lucre |
Morganta
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
1989
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 14:35:00 -
[2075] - Quote
what people like the OP fail to get is that it doesn't matter what you are flying or how its armed
my personal favorite is when someone is mining ice and has a buddy hanging out semi AFK in a faction fit BS for defense.
know what we do?
we alpha gank the BS and if we have enough time we pop the mack too.
sitting afk on a gate with some pricy navy boat? we'll determine what we need to pop you and then do it, so be mindful of those flashy pods flying past you, if you continue to sit there your turn will come. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
658
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:34:00 -
[2076] - Quote
I noticed this a lot recently, the empty freighter thing. I was looking through the KB and trying to see if any had wars or something dumb like that, but no. Just plain old suicide gank. Don't think there's a solution for the pilot apart from just don't undock it. Though if you fit it for travel with an istab and a nano or two you'll minimise the amount of time you're actually in space, which must logically reduce your chances of getting popped. Otherwise, warpy-cloaky all the way. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7610
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:36:00 -
[2077] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote: Don't think there's a solution for the pilot apart from just don't undock it.
Really? You can't think of one? "Don't fly a billion isk killmail through an area that has fifty suicide ganks in the last four hours" leaps to mind for starters.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1938
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:41:00 -
[2078] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:You know what I don't get, I loot some scrap worth 300 isk from some wreck the guy probably doesn't even want, and everyone can blow me to bits for 15 mins, but I go around scanning ships and sizing them up for a loss that can go into the Billions of ISK and no suspect flag, not even for 10 seconds, and the scan is pretty much instant giving the mark no chance to resist. How convenient.
Who comes up with this stuff, everyone knows that in EVE the real fight happens before the shooting starts. You stole something, the scanner did no harm to anyone. Thats the difference.
hah! right, scanning is far more suspicious and harmful then stealing some veldspar.
Of course you don't want suspect flags because an actual fight instead of a gank that pretty much is a guaranteed win scares poor little gankbears. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Dave Stark
6486
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:43:00 -
[2079] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:You know what I don't get, I loot some scrap worth 300 isk from some wreck the guy probably doesn't even want, and everyone can blow me to bits for 15 mins, but I go around scanning ships and sizing them up for a loss that can go into the Billions of ISK and no suspect flag, not even for 10 seconds, and the scan is pretty much instant giving the mark no chance to resist. How convenient.
Who comes up with this stuff, everyone knows that in EVE the real fight happens before the shooting starts. You stole something, the scanner did no harm to anyone. Thats the difference. hah! right, scanning is far more suspicious and harmful then stealing some veldspar. Of course you don't want suspect flags because an actual fight instead of a gank that pretty much is a guaranteed win scares poor little gankbears.
suspect flagging cargo/ship scans won't generate actual fights. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
658
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:43:00 -
[2080] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Victoria Sin wrote: Don't think there's a solution for the pilot apart from just don't undock it. Really? You can't think of one? "Don't fly a billion isk killmail through an area that has fifty suicide ganks in the last four hours" leaps to mind for starters.
Don't be obtuse. You could be the first. There's no way to know. You can't eliminate the risk, only reduce it. But you can't reduce it to zero unless you don't undock it. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7610
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:45:00 -
[2081] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:You know what I don't get, I loot some scrap worth 300 isk from some wreck the guy probably doesn't even want, and everyone can blow me to bits for 15 mins, but I go around scanning ships and sizing them up for a loss that can go into the Billions of ISK and no suspect flag, not even for 10 seconds, and the scan is pretty much instant giving the mark no chance to resist. How convenient.
Who comes up with this stuff, everyone knows that in EVE the real fight happens before the shooting starts. You stole something, the scanner did no harm to anyone. Thats the difference. hah! right, scanning is far more suspicious and harmful then stealing some veldspar. Of course you don't want suspect flags because an actual fight instead of a gank that pretty much is a guaranteed win scares poor little gankbears.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard so far today.
A scanning module costs about fifty thousand isk. It can be fitted to a noobship. If you think it would change anything aside from taking yet another potential set of options away from new players, you're wrong.
The neverending quest of the carebear to "feel better" continues. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7610
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:52:00 -
[2082] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:
Don't be obtuse. You could be the first. There's no way to know.
Yes, there really is. And you think I'm the one being obtuse? That's rich.
Or are we playing the "freighter pilots can't be expected to know that Perimeter, Aufay, and Uedama are common gank systems" game? They're not new players almost by definition. If they don't know where the common ganking systems are, then they're backflipping stupid.
So yeah, there is plenty of ways to know, there are plenty of ways to get around it too. But the sticking point is that they require, *gasp*, effort.
Quote: You can't eliminate the risk, only reduce it. But you can't reduce it to zero unless you don't undock it.
No duh you can't eliminate risk without not undocking in the first place. You act like you should be able to. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:05:00 -
[2083] - Quote
I think ganking in general are a problem. Not so much of the ganking act itself but the hole impact on the lifing in high sec.
It is a known fact also stated by various sources ((like CCP)) that Low Sec and 0.0 offer a far better revenue by taking far higher risks. However talking to various Miners that move to 0.0 Space, they claim it is much safer and quiter There. Your Intel is organized and you can mine Stuff at good margins. However Low is Considered an unordered Place with high risks, in which attacks can apply everywhere. High Sec is claimed to be a secure Area. Enforced by Concord and Faction Security forces. Industrial Operation in Highsec comes there for with less revenue but at the same time with less Risks. So far the theoretic view on the Eve universe by some people.
Gankers contradict this philosophy and damgeing this in a enormous way. 1) Moveing out of a system in another system only avoids an attack if you reduce your earnings. So you may go away but at the same time you loose. It is not much but it still is a descion that is more or less a loose loose choice for the miner. 2) Put a bounty on someone. Well the bounty system is a joke when it comes to ganker. I admit I do not know if it is working at all. 3) you can hunt ganker. Yea that works. A lot of them are not smart. To be honest they do the same dump mistakes as their prey. They just think they are on the safe side. But thats again for someone who takes fun in Mining and building not something he wants to do. And you need some courage to risk your ship attanking the bully in your system.
I think the ganking issue is currently a problem that has to be thought on. This problem could be answered by a good bounty market. There is currently no Market. You can bounty hunt, but it is more something of luck. A System that works around Killrights rather then a random bounty. Which is more direct and efficent.
Another point could to reduce the risk by construction defensive Mining Utlities that in order to cut losses. Remeber not every miner is able to fit tanky hauwlers. I think even a procurer in the hand of a fresh minerpilot is no match for a half competent suicide ganker.
Or improve the win in the Ganking risk areas. Currently you have far less risk in 08 system at by only a small drop in your revenue compared to 0.6 or 0.5 regions. And 0.8 is still gankable territory.
I think the problem is currently not out of hands yet, but it needs to be adressed in some form in the near to mid future.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
658
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:12:00 -
[2084] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No duh you can't eliminate risk without not undocking in the first place. You act like you should be able to.
Please grow up. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7610
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:13:00 -
[2085] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No duh you can't eliminate risk without not undocking in the first place. You act like you should be able to.
Please grow up.
A grown up is someone who accepts and understands that a PvP game has PvP in it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22935
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:28:00 -
[2086] - Quote
Aischa Montagne wrote:High Sec is claimed to be a secure Area. Enforced by Concord and Faction Security forces. I'm going to stop you there. No. Highsec has never been claimed to be a secure area, and it is not being enforced by anything. Highsec is simply an area where aggression comes at a cost GÇö CONCORD is the entity that creates those costs. Now, I know that you hedged this by calling it a GÇ£theoretic view by some peopleGÇ¥, but that's just it: it's a view people have, and an incorrect one at that. It cannot be the basis for any kind of argument or logic because it is just plain old false.
Quote:Gankers contradict this philosophy and damgeing this in a enormous way. No, they don't for the simple reason that the philosophy in question does not exist. It is, as mentioned, just something some people have invented, with no basis in the realities of the game. Just because people have to make compromises does not mean that anything is damaged. In fact, having to find a compromise between two contradictory goals is one of the core obstacles of the game, and in a sense the only proper obstacle the game can provide. Since you set up your own goals, you and you alone are responsible for picking one that compromises as little as possible, and the game mechanics can't (and shouldn't) be an important factor in this.
Quote:I think the ganking issue is currently a problem that has to be thought on. This problem could be answered by a good bounty market. There is currently no Market. You can bounty hunt, but it is more something of luck. A System that works around Killrights rather then a random bounty. Which is more direct and efficent. How is it a problem? It's exceedingly rare. It's trivially easy to avoid. It can be treated as a standard financial risk with expected outcomes if you're inclined to just live with it. Just because all the available solutions (and there are many of them) have downside does not mean that it is a problem either GÇö that's just the nature of choice. There are no silver bullets.
Now, I'll give you credit for taking the view that it should be a player solution instead of Yet Another NerfGäó, but in doing so, you've stumbled over the actual cause of the problems some people feel they're facing: what you're looking for is pretty much already available, but the ones who are supposed to use these tools choose not to. The problem isn't tools or ability or mechanics. The problem is choice GÇö specifically the adamant refusal to choose to use the tools available for various reasons.
Quote:Another point could to reduce the risk by construction defensive Mining Utlities that in order to cut losses. Remeber not every miner is able to fit tanky hauwlers. I think even a procurer in the hand of a fresh minerpilot is no match for a half competent suicide ganker. These already exist, and yes, even a fresh miner can go all defensive and become a hard target. Again, the only issue is that the miners simply don't choose this option, and that's really where the myth comes from: GÇ£I choose not to use these methods, therefore the methods don't existGÇ¥. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:16:00 -
[2087] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aischa Montagne wrote:High Sec is claimed to be a secure Area. Enforced by Concord and Faction Security forces. I'm going to stop you there. No. Highsec has never been claimed to be a secure area, and it is not being enforced by anything. Highsec is simply an area where aggression comes at a cost GÇö CONCORD is the entity that creates those costs. Now, I know that you hedged this by calling it a GÇ£theoretic view by some peopleGÇ¥, but that's just it: it's a view people have, and an incorrect one at that. It cannot be the basis for any kind of argument or logic because it is just plain old false. Quote:Gankers contradict this philosophy and damgeing this in a enormous way. No, they don't for the simple reason that the philosophy in question does not exist. It is, as mentioned, just something some people have invented, with no basis in the realities of the game. Just because people have to make compromises does not mean that anything is damaged. In fact, having to find a compromise between two contradictory goals is one of the core obstacles of the game, and in a sense the only proper obstacle the game can provide. Since you set up your own goals, you and you alone are responsible for picking one that compromises as little as possible, and the game mechanics can't (and shouldn't) be an important factor in this. Quote:I think the ganking issue is currently a problem that has to be thought on. This problem could be answered by a good bounty market. There is currently no Market. You can bounty hunt, but it is more something of luck. A System that works around Killrights rather then a random bounty. Which is more direct and efficent. How is it a problem? It's exceedingly rare. It's trivially easy to avoid. It can be treated as a standard financial risk with expected outcomes if you're inclined to just live with it. Just because all the available solutions (and there are many of them) have downside does not mean that it is a problem either GÇö that's just the nature of choice. There are no silver bullets. Now, I'll give you credit for taking the view that it should be a player solution instead of Yet Another NerfGäó, but in doing so, you've stumbled over the actual cause of the problems some people feel they're facing: what you're looking for is pretty much already available, but the ones who are supposed to use these tools choose not to. The problem isn't tools or ability or mechanics. The problem is choice GÇö specifically the adamant refusal to choose to use the tools available for various reasons. Quote:Another point could to reduce the risk by construction defensive Mining Utlities that in order to cut losses. Remeber not every miner is able to fit tanky hauwlers. I think even a procurer in the hand of a fresh minerpilot is no match for a half competent suicide ganker. These already exist, and yes, even a fresh miner can go all defensive and become a hard target. Again, the only issue is that the miners simply don't choose this option, and that's really where the myth comes from: GÇ£I choose not to use these methods, therefore the methods don't existGÇ¥.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12260
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:26:00 -
[2088] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:hah! right, scanning is far more suspicious and harmful then stealing some veldspar. Of course you don't want suspect flags because an actual fight instead of a gank that pretty much is a guaranteed win scares poor little gankbears.
Yea, your speaking to the people willing to risk trillions of isk in capital brawls. The only people looking for risk free gameplay are the nerf ganking bears. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1940
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:50:00 -
[2089] - Quote
70 pages so far of carebears and gankbears proving they won't undock if it means risking anything of value. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1000
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:53:00 -
[2090] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:70 pages so far of carebears and gankbears proving they won't undock if it means risking anything of value. Carebears risk billions every day... they just aren't aware of it, sometimes. |
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Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:54:00 -
[2091] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:70 pages so far of carebears and gankbears proving they won't undock if it means risking anything of value. I believe it is a discussion of the inability to understand the other position. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12260
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:59:00 -
[2092] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:70 pages so far of carebears and gankbears proving they won't undock if it means risking anything of value.
Only, gankers do undock. Hence all of the bears exploding. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
763
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 19:11:00 -
[2093] - Quote
Aischa Montagne wrote:That is not true for High. The 1-0.8 Systems are quite save. 0.5 System are completly different. I have seen people looseing 30k eHP Procurers there. I think the gain is not worth the risk today.
I disagree. 30k Procurers? You are long enough in the game to know, that a 30k Procurer deserves to diaf. That has nothing to do with risk versus reward.
Also: It's fine to be risk averse. But if you are, you also have to act accordingly. If you don't, it's not CCPs job to fix your individual problems.
Aischa Montagne wrote:So most miners simply do not take fun in an enemy they not realy want and nobody is realy takeing care of gankers. There is no balance.
Remove insurance. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1940
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 19:56:00 -
[2094] - Quote
Carebears cry, CONCORD protect me. Gankbears cry, CONCORD protect my high security Alts.
Result is, PvP = 0
Anyone who's played early Lineage 2, and took part in the almost contrant epic battles knows that EVE needs some of the following.
1) Removal of CONCORD, or at the very least reduce the response time by about 1000%. 2) A better flagging system. (group members flag, flags for scanning, and so on.) 3) No safe areas in high security for criminals that destroyed too many ships of people that don't fight back.
Part of the reason the great battles of EVE happen when someone screws up is because everyone is risk averse and everything is a math equasion. It's like watching Math Majors pretend to do battle. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1002
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 20:58:00 -
[2095] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Carebears cry, CONCORD protect me. Gankbears cry, CONCORD protect my high security Alts.
Result is, PvP = 0
Anyone who's played early Lineage 2, and took part in the almost contrant epic battles knows that EVE needs some of the following.
1) Removal of CONCORD, or at the very least reduce the response time by about 1000%. 2) A better flagging system. (group members flag, flags for scanning, and so on.) 3) No safe areas in high security for criminals that destroyed too many ships of people that don't fight back.
Part of the reason the great battles of EVE happen when someone screws up is because everyone is risk averse and everything is a math equasion. It's like watching Math Majors pretend to do battle. An easy solution would be to simply jump through any of the hundreds of gates or wormholes that lead out of that inherently flawed place called highsec. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
764
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 22:15:00 -
[2096] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:3) No safe areas in high security for criminals that destroyed too many ships or people that don't fight back.
Fixed it for you.
Oh wait, we already have that. Nothing to do here for CCP. Remove insurance. |
Lady Areola Fappington
1976
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 22:20:00 -
[2097] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Sentamon wrote:3) No safe areas in high security for criminals that destroyed too many ships or people that don't fight back.
Fixed it for you. Oh wait, we already have that. Nothing to do here for CCP.
Damn CCP and their mechanic fixing time machine. They only use it to troll good poasters like this. This thread officially has 25% more pssssssshhh than leading competitors. Rick Moranis was never put on death row for shrinking his children. New York exists outside the mind of Billy Joel. A French press is not lifting weights with your tongue out. Lena Dunham is not a girl ventriloquist. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5437
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 22:36:00 -
[2098] - Quote
Somewhere, very early in this thread, I detailed a valid mechanic & even showed a video of how to plow through any system with your slow freighter & prevent ganks, the very same mechanic that people have been using for years tio avoid freighter ganks. It is unsurprising to see that 50 pages onward people still haven't clued in. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1940
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 01:24:00 -
[2099] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Somewhere, very early in this thread, I detailed a valid mechanic & even showed a video of how to plow through any system with your slow freighter & prevent ganks, the very same mechanic that people have been using for years tio avoid freighter ganks. It is unsurprising to see that 50 pages onward people still haven't clued in.
Yeah yeah, people are discussing how to create PvP. Avoidance of gankers has always been easy for all but clueless noobs.
Go back to your blue donut. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5452
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 01:32:00 -
[2100] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Somewhere, very early in this thread, I detailed a valid mechanic & even showed a video of how to plow through any system with your slow freighter & prevent ganks, the very same mechanic that people have been using for years tio avoid freighter ganks. It is unsurprising to see that 50 pages onward people still haven't clued in. Yeah yeah, people are discussing how to create PvP. Avoidance of gankers has always been easy for all but clueless noobs. Go back to your blue donut.
Your last several posts in this thread show otherwise, but please continue on. I wouldn't want any facts to burst your personal protective bubble of ignorance. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
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