I don't think I've seen anything from CCP about Black Ops this expansion. Players yes, devs no. Unless I missed something; you got a link?

It looks like this expansion is going to have multiple releases like the last few, so it's possible something will turn up later.

Hi

Been wondering if you guys at CCP is gonna buff the Black ops as there where talks about in this winter expantion, or is that on hold yet again?

Reason why I'm asking is that Black ops, as I think many will agree on, nice alternative to the usual blob tactics of the big alliances in eve, and will allow for smaller group to actually be a massive pain in the butt. So role wise the black ops is pretty much spot on. The stats however needs a wee little buff to actually shine in that role. And to be honest Black ops is such a niche area in pvp that pretty much any buff will not be game breaking in any way shape or form.

What I'd like to see is the following:

Range buff. 2,5LY baseis simple not enough even with JC 5 you can often get in to a situation where you cant even jump from one constalltion in to the constallation ext door. this is in particualr a problem if those two constalltions are in two different regions. Pretty hard raiding null space bording low sec/npc null sec if you have to pass camped regional gate to get access to a specific area. maybe 3,5 or 4LY base would be good enough, 5LY is probably to OP.

Then they need T2 resist and standard T1 slot layout. Dont like the fact that 700mill T2 ships folds like wet nappys if anything sheenze at them.

Would be nice to get the JP fuel consumption lowered or removed. Having blockade runners on tow is anoying.

T3 able to light covert cyno's, though that might be a bit OP.

And no, as much fun it would be, covert ops cloaking Black ops BS's would be seriously overpowered.

So CCP, pretty please with sugar on top, give us a wee little black ops buff[

I swear to god if I see this ******* thread again I will kersplode.

You're probably going to kersplode, then.

They are fine.

Then they need T2 resist and standard T1 slot layout. Dont like the fact that 700mill T2 ships folds like wet nappys if anything sheenze at them.

God no, triple plated and trimarked Redeemers with T2 resists would easily get close to 300k EHP.

CCP has been promising to fix black ops, let's see if they are good at keeping their promises and don't take over 2 years to do it.

I'm for boost, TII resist, MoAR damage, MoAR range, less fuel
No covops cloak though

You never flew a Black ops, right ?

.....it cost a sh*t ton + recquires quite a lot of skills. ....

the same was spoken many times about supercarriers.... they got nerfed....
would not hope this pray will help to blackops......

black ops are not solo pwn ships, supers currently are... black ops are horrible broken. Unfortualy we always have forum trolls saying all black op are so awesome as the redeemer, witch might be the only correct functioning one (not including jump stuffs)

Appart from bridging fleets, it's useless. AND, it's not even good at bridging fleets. AND, it cost a sh*t ton + recquires quite a lot of skills.

Cloaking/cynoing crap is already way too attractive, no need to make this gamestyle even more potent.

While black ops don't actually need a buff, they do need more than one role for the amount of training put into getting in one.

I have suggested before to make them able to fit a cov ops cloak. But when fitted with one, the jump drive is offlined. This way you can have an offensive small fleet role for it or a support for large fleet role depending on your play style.

Not a buff. Not a nerf. Just a broadening of the usefulness of an expensive, skill intensive ship and more in line with what the ship name suggests it's role should be.

Mr Epeen

Post an actual evidence why they need to be buffed! Untill you actually post evidence that confirms this, then shut the hell up.
If you know how to use Black Ops then you will kno thye dont need a buff, not even on jump range.
They can use jump range very very ffectivelly. You just need a well organized working group. Thats where the Black Ops really really work well.

There is plenty of evidence that suggest that they dont need a buff at all, specially in range. A buff will srtainly make them OP.

Burn Eden is a great example on how black ops should be used.
Search, find target, Jump, Snipe, Jump away.

POST PROOF or shut the hell up!

it is so intensive because you can bridge a fleet easelly. Its like a titan. Out poor the troyan army.
Black ops does what is suppose to do > support a fleet. That is out maneuver your opponent, enter an area thats cyno jammed, and opportunity kill/herassment, ability for ninja pos.
They are not meant for engaging a whole fleet straight on. This is wrong! BUT they can still take on a big enough fleet.

ready back to my first post in this topic and click on the link saying 784 days. It redirects u back to the old assembly hall i was running for over 2 yrs. Take a look in there and u will see plenty of evedence of stuff that need changin......

and back to you. You can bridge a whole army into a system that cyno jammed and even gate camped.
infact, this is more than a titan can do. Its a support ship, if it didnt do the bridging then sure but its stupid then.

Tell me where i can find a place where i can insta jump my entire fleet from my main staging point into a cyno jammed system (=sov syetm) full of hostiles without bringing atleast 2 cov op haulers to carry fuel..... Tell me just 1 such a place......

ROFL. AAA noob
Burn Eden does it all the time.

I dont even think u have a qlue about how much fuel each ship uses, let me give u some number out my head (more numbers in link in my forst post). Your BO fuel bay can carry 6666 units of fuel. 1 recon uses 2300 - 2500 of fuel to bridge 4,5 ly. A bomber takes 350 units a BO to jump is 288 (not sure out my head). The bridging fuel part is fail. The systems that lay more than 4.5 ly out of eachother messes everything up. To make them currently usefull by just a slight mark is a rule that they can alwasy jump 1 system whatever the range beween those 2 points it, costing max 4,5ly jump fuel. Bottle next choke point are often camped, are u willing to travel trough there with a handfull of battleships that are sitting dicks jumping torugh normal gates? (1b isk ships)

you are still looking at the problem and not the solution. This is why you fail. ROFL

Analyze
Propose
Fix

The frist 2 things i can do.... the third one is upto CCP..... i wonder where trolling is in that list

PS: plenty of solutions in my old topix (cant link due on work)

You are looking at the problem and just want from the safety of your station/pos to move an army long ranges.
And the response is NO. You are not gonna be allowed to bridge a whole army without a "risk factor". This is not a titan and fractically you are already getting too much features as it is.

Once again, you are looking at something, dont like how it works for you and then you want people change it how you like it.
You are not even bothering to concider a solution.

Everybody that has been sussesful with black ops will tell you, that they dont need a buff.

Look at Burn Eden's killboard. They have been doing it for yearsssss. If you cant do it, then its YOUR fault not eve's

it is so intensive because you can bridge a fleet easelly. Its like a titan. Out poor the troyan army.
Black ops does what is suppose to do > support a fleet. That is out maneuver your opponent, enter an area thats cyno jammed, and opportunity kill/herassment, ability for ninja pos.
They are not meant for engaging a whole fleet straight on. This is wrong! BUT they can still take on a big enough fleet.

Look at Burn Eden's killboard. They have been doing it for yearsssss. If you cant do it, then its YOUR fault not eve's

look mommy, daddy plays with his joystick can i play too??

Because some ppl find things so awesome that they are willing to waste alot of effort on good gank kills. Burn Eden has fixed supply lines with alts for fule, they use the same points over and over once they are settle in the area. On this way u reduce the effort and trouble. Thats why u almost only find them doing it. For the avarage people (BE is not avarage) its too much hassle.

edit: whos the alt nooby hiding behind alts trolling about stuff he has no clue about and too lazy to check facts yourselve to troll,.. even when u get told where it is.

You have no idea what you are talking about... this post is so bad that I can tell you have never flown one.

First, the ship has less of a tank than the T1 version. This was intentionally done by CCP because they planned to buff the ship earlier, admitting outright it was pre-nerfed. The problem was that they never finished balancing the ship!

The bridging distance is so small that often it cannot get into those hostile systems to remove the jammers. And even if done, it's easier (and cheaper) to just pound a conventional fleet in there.

The redeemer is fine but the rest of the ships are useful only as a ganking, bridging platform sitting inside a POS. They are no able to complete their role as heavy hitters.

So, the following needs to be done (not all but at least SOME of these ideas:

1) increase ly range
2) decrease bridging fuel costs by 75%
3) increase resists to T2 levels
4) add covops cloak option if not number 4.


If the ship is supposed to jump to a hostile POS and take out the jammer, it should be able to tank the freaking POS guns.

ROFL....jump to a hostile POS with blackops? facepal. Never was meant to do that. Nutz!

Very mature, i see.
Thats exaclty what you have to do with capitals. You got fuel in positions around for resuply.
Thats exactly what you got to do with black ops.
Black Ops are not suppose to be cost effective. There is nothing cos effective about a 1b ship.
Its about a good herass and kill and outmaneuver your opponent.

You have to get out of your safe zone into danger. You dont get to move a large fleet that easelly. Otherwise use a titan to bridge you.

So your answer to why you cannot do it too is (look mommy, daddy plays with his joystick can i play too??) NOT to use the features/posibilities/advantages availlable to you already. Instead whine or have it changed to how YOU want it.
You want zero risk, all results. NO

BE is not average= there is nothing average about black ops
this way u reduce the effort and trouble=make them op for me please

Black ops ships have the potential to give Med and small alliance/corps the fun of hot dropping with out the need of a titan.

As the ship is now, you need to fit it with cargo expanders in the lows just so you have enough fuel to jump med sized fleets which essentially gimps the armor tanking ships, like the sin.

What i would like to see with this ship is a clear defined role with the ability to use it. If its meant to be a counter to cyno jammers, give it a fuel bay so it can jump the amount of ships needed to do a raid on a cyno jammer.

If the ship is meant as a force multiplier to other black ops ships once bridged, make it so where the ship can be used in combat after it has jumped the cov ops fleet.

If its meant to complement a transport ship and used as a logistical augmenter, than increase the jump range so there is a real benefit to invest all that training time into flying the ship.

This class of ship is simply broken and needs to either be removed or refocused. period!

you lift out the other IF posibility.
If its meant to do herass/snipe? Then it does what is suppose to do. It bridges a significant amount of people. All you need is have fuel on standby in the area. Are you gonna give also add a fuel bay to recon too? How about covert ops? Come on...

They are about 600m, fitted about the same as the average T3.

A T3 can jump via BO portal
A T3 can warp cloaked and still have better resists than a BO BS
A T3 is more agile and able to take out more targets than a BS fleet
A T3 can also be nullified making them even better killers

There is nothing a BO BS can do that a T3 can't do better. Currently a BO BS is only used to portal and nothing else. If that is the role, just make a T2 noctis hull and remove al lthe black ops from the game.

Otherwise they are worthless, useless show of bling. Why bring a redeemer when you can bridge 5 SB and recons at a fraction of the cost, same DPS, and able to warp cloaked?

I was in DNS for a couple years. The logistics in doing black ops drops is well beyond your simple definition. You have to being fuel of every type. A fleet of 10-15 will drain the bay of the BO BS in a single bridge, you have to fill it with cargo expanders otherwise and that's ALL you can fit. If you wanted to do a sustained harassment as you call it... say several drops over the course of a few days, you need to anchor cans or have haulers continually bringing in fuel.

You have ZERO idea on what you're talking about. It is not that simple. Just stop because you're making yourself look even worse. First you use BE as an example, and now you think it's simply "having fuel on standby" without even understanding the needs.

Just stop...

BO does far more than use portal. I am sure BE will tell you that.
BO is a logistic ship that can do snipping/herass. Its very well rounded ship.
T3 cannot do portal something that BO can do very well.

yes anchor cans, a resuply chain. Just like with capitals and fuel requirements having them at station or POS. Nothing new here. I still dont see how you cannot do it and BE can?

You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about. The redeemer is a decent ship but the ONLY one. BE also uses billion ISK fittings, including on their nightmares or machs. They also have much more going on behind the scenes than a roaming gang of Redeemers. You are truely simple minded.

By the way, DNS ganked BE's black ops gang... with stealth bombers. BE do well because of the tactics they use, not the ships. But you don't know that. You're in an NPC corp. You have no idea how they operate jsut what others have told you. You don't know about offgrid boosting, the neutral alts used in conjunction... jesus why am I even trying to answer this.






You're goddamn stupid, plain and simple.

ROFL They dont use just redeemers. Have also you others aswell. You may have not seen it but doesnt mean they dont. I hav seen them using others.
DNS are BE, toe nails, everybody knows that.
Still ignore the question......If be can, why cant you???????????????

You realize I was in DNS, right? DNS is not BE you mongoloid.


They CAN be used. They are pigs. filled with cargo expanders and used to bridge fleets. Sure, you can use them in PVP but they will die, even to a T1 version of themselves. The Redeemer is the least of the broken, in that it can almost do an effective job.

But then ask, why is the Widow, Sin, and Panther ignored?

And why don't YOU fly them? Of wait, you are talking out of your ass. Do you even own a black ops, let alone flown with a black ops fleet?

What part of english you dont understand?
i just told you that widow sin and panther are not ignored. I have been jumped by BE with those ships before.
I do own a redeemer. Your line below is a classic example how much of a noob you are in blackops.
"If the ship is supposed to jump to a hostile POS and take out the jammer, it should be able to tank the freaking POS guns."

ROFL

I understand your lack of comprehension.

BO were originally intended to use covert cyno fields and take down a jammer in addition to harassment "behind enemy lines."

Funny, I can't find Andrea Roche on any killboard. You can't even post with your main, so I'm calling your bluff.

Go ahead and tell yourself how black ops BS are just fine, especially when last check there were less than 500 of them in people's hangers (last official count was ~250 but I'm rounding up with optimistic thinking).

XD
Its an alt.

My god, the stories you tell. BOs are suppose to be used to take out POS and now against Jammers too? facepalm
Keeps me laughing at you XD

Well. Since you are so sure Black ops are fine as they are, how about you come up with some exsamples of where YOU have used black ops to great effect including some killbord battlr reports and such, instead of using an alt to argue your point and using a burden enden as pretty much then only corp you can come up with using black ops with success.

And I think most., and in particular those that have been their victims, can agree on that Burn eden is not you every day typical averange greifer corp.

So how about it.. proof your points with your own experinces instead of pretending that you are the cool allknowing black ops pilot.

Unforgiving.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11449878
cva
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8876616
DNS
Blind Octopus
Stain Empire
and many more

There are plenty more. Some have stopped doing it and some others no longer exist/cant find them.
All very successfull at it too.

I am not telling you who am I. So you are gonna have to live with it.

These is proof that ALL these ships are not only used BUT also are a valid and effective way of playing the game. Therefore they dont need a buff. They rarelly get killed anyway.

goodnight gl hf

Unforgiving.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11449878
cva
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8876616
DNS
Blind Octopus
Stain Empire
and many more

There are plenty more. Some have stopped doing it and some others no longer exist/cant find them.
All very successfull at it too.

I am not telling you who am I. So you are gonna have to live with it.

These is proof that ALL these ships are not only used BUT also are a valid and effective way of playing the game. Therefore they dont need a buff. They rarelly get killed anyway.

goodnight gl hf

[quote=Andrea Roche]

Unforgiving.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11449878
cva
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8876616
DNS
Blind Octopus
Stain Empire
and many more

There are plenty more. Some have stopped doing it and some others no longer exist/cant find them.
All very successfull at it too.

I am not telling you who am I. So you are gonna have to live with it.

These is proof that ALL these ships are not only used BUT also are a valid and effective way of playing the game. Therefore they dont need a buff. They rarelly get killed anyway.

goodnight gl hf

I'm sorry but....you're ********.

Not that I like Morsus Mihi or Vincent himself, but look at you.

You're linking two battlereports.

6 Blackops and a Rapier taking down a PVE Nightmare.

30 BO fleet (With 12 blackops, 4 recons, a T3 and bombers) taking down a Cynabal, a RailDeimos, an Arazu and a Devoter.

I could have killed the Nightmare with a bomber.

I could have killed the second fleet with my Tempest.

How is that a proof of the fact that black ops works ? No they don't. For the 600M they cost and all the skills they require, they are bad. They barely jump next door, they are paperthin (Literally, check their Shield/armor/structure HP in game), they have a good DPS (Like all battleships, I would say), they have LOLBonuses (The Redeemer gets a tracking bonus, which is good. The Sin gets an agility bonus ?), they can't bridge properly a few recons, they need multiple fuel caches or dualboxing a viator...

I'm sorry, but those ships doesn't work like they are supposed to.

Fix :

Split back ops in two categories.

First category, support blackops. Enhanced jumprange (5 LY Base), enhanced fuel bay (Or less fuel consumption /ship/lightyear), practically no DPS.

Second, combat blackops. Actual jumprange, actual fuel bay, T2 resistances, same shield/armor/HP as the tier 3 BS, same DPS as of now (More turret/missile based DPS, less drone DPS). Less sucky bonuses (Like, a Neutralizer duration/Capacitor use on the Redeemer, a falloff bonus on the Panther maybe, a Warp disruptor range bonus on the Sin ?)

Support blackops keep their current model/skin.

Combat blackops get the tier 3 BS model and the skin that goes with it.

Imagine the paintjob of the Widow, on a Rokh.

They are about 600m, fitted about the same as the average T3.

A T3 can jump via BO portal
A T3 can warp cloaked and still have better resists than a BO BS
A T3 is more agile and able to take out more targets than a BS fleet
A T3 can also be nullified making them even better killers

There is nothing a BO BS can do that a T3 can't do better. Currently a BO BS is only used to portal and nothing else. If that is the role, just make a T2 noctis hull and remove al lthe black ops from the game.

Otherwise they are worthless, useless show of bling. Why bring a redeemer when you can bridge 5 SB and recons at a fraction of the cost, same DPS, and able to warp cloaked?

Taking advice on Black Ops from someone in SWA? LOL.

people want pvp and not this kind of play thats acually rather dull and black ops can become op rather easy.

forget it, this is something ccp is not gonna change.
there are many many other things that are fundamental for the game that require change. this is a thing that can be fixed after all the soverenghty and lack of people in 0.0 space issues and other issues.

besides there is no issue here.
sombody else said it before too.
dream on.... not gonna happen. Black ops is op as it is already. Its very easy to jump and snipe and leave instantly. its really really easy to do. fuel and jumping distance is the only thing that actually stops this from been completelly op.

besides if eve turns into this kind of boring play, then eve will die. people want battles, this form is not pvp.

probably not but if they adjust that 1 skill - it shouldn't be difficult to help with the fuel issues. Tweaking ships tank - again, not a major project portion and they could get some fixes rolled out fairly easily.

The only reason NOT to do anything is the whine factor of those who want these things powered over the top and there are a few of them. As such, it's safer for CCP not to touch the ship vs putting in any fixes to them at all. Anything they did that comes up shy of a virtual "god mode" would be too little and cause more anger and that's what they're trying to avoid.

Bummer IMO - I'd really like the Sin fixed up a bit. It's one of the ships I can fly soon (Sin and Panther) and I'd love it if the thing wasn't as lame as it appears right now.

A bit more tank - a touch less fuel use... Not a lot to ask for but not enough for many plays so, I agree; I don't think they'll touch these.

With respect to bridging: You have NOTHING in the game to compare it to except a Titan - want to bring costs into the picture? I think you'll talk a hell of a lot of people out of fixing anything if you are stuck comparing to titans and their costs.

A T3 has to use gates to move around - UNLESS it is being bridged by one of the 2 ships in the game that can do this. A BO doesn't - it has a jump drive as well as a jump portal generator to move others around.

By putting black ops firepower and tank up, what you create is something vastly more desirable than a machariel or any other high-end battleship for PvE use as well as a "solo pwn" mobile for those looking for lulz - one that cannot be stopped from going into any system in the game if a single covert scout ship can get through its gate to lite the cyno.

A covert capable jumping ship, with battleship firepower, no targeting delay after cloak - so it becomes a PvP soloing monster -AND- a PvE ship that ignores gate camps due to an invisible cyno so can't even be caught at its destination. Not a good combination for PvP interaction by other players who aren't using covert ships.

You'd end up with far more PvE players looking to these things and mass PvP players going for the solo. They would be a prefered "I win" ship for ganking across space.

DPS? No. As a matter of fact, reduce the DPS if you increase the range - hell, follow that other 'fix list' and put in a DPS black ops class battleship based on the Tier-3 BS - just no jump drive on that thing so we don't get a soloist ganker wet dream like it would become.

Tough, I can see. Able to move others, I can see. Able to jump around to covert cynos, with improved tank and improved DPS so as to avoid any unwanted fights yet able to jump in on fights with big fire power? No way in hell if we want to keep things visible in this game for PvP.

I'm surpriced you fellas fed the troll for so long. Dont bother, you can tell mile away the crew that would think "hulk is effective and viable pvp ship because I've seen killmails/youtube vid/fancy forum post of ten hulks killing one ship." Same people dont bother looking at the history and dev comments and blogs admitting certain ships did get released pre-nerfed.

as supose to what >> "GET OUT NASTY FACE" rofl. this is an alt
lol i fear you will die from old age waiting for a change in blackops XD gl, you are gonna need it XDDDDDDDD

Post an actual evidence why they need to be buffed! Untill you actually post evidence that confirms this, then shut the hell up.
If you know how to use Black Ops then you will kno thye dont need a buff, not even on jump range.
They can use jump range very very ffectivelly. You just need a well organized working group. Thats where the Black Ops really really work well.

There is plenty of evidence that suggest that they dont need a buff at all, specially in range. A buff will srtainly make them OP.

Burn Eden is a great example on how black ops should be used.
Search, find target, Jump, Snipe, Jump away.

POST PROOF or shut the hell up!

I can't seem to find any Black Ops kills by Andrea Roche.

Fact, more ppl fly titans than black opsGǪ it has been stated a few times on quen ship snapshots, it that because the titan is so cheap or because BO bridging sucks?

I'm not waiting for a change. I'm just calling out snarky coward alts as irrelevant.

only read upto the above part.
the above is not only wrong but biased to prove the point you are trying to make.
There reason why people chose titan instead of BO is cos titan is a super capital. There are many other reason why a titan is better than a BO besides bridging. its nothing to do ith bridging sucks. Titan can bridge any ship type, compare to its counter part that can only do a limited ship type bridging. You completelly ignored the tank, dps and doomsday of titan.

you are day dreaming.
blakc ops are not gonna change cos of the following facts again repeated:

if you look around at killboard with black ops, its is clear they are succesful at what they do.
Once you get jumped by black ops, you got 1 minute or less to survive even when you are in a battleship. Its that fast!
Jumping distance and fuel consumption is the only thing that stops from making this type of game op.

not gonna change like other have said so too

Black Ops are OP as hell.

If you know how to use Black Ops then you will kno thye dont need a buff, not even on jump range.

it is so intensive because you can bridge a fleet easelly. Its like a titan. Out poor the troyan army.
Black ops does what is suppose to do > support a fleet. That is out maneuver your opponent, enter an area thats cyno jammed, and opportunity kill/herassment, ability for ninja pos.
They are not meant for engaging a whole fleet straight on. This is wrong! BUT they can still take on a big enough fleet.

This is not a titan and fractically you are already getting too much features as it is.
Everybody that has been sussesful with black ops will tell you, that they dont need a buff.

i could also quote you similarly but i am too lazy and you are not worht it. the funny thing is that you cant beat this:
if you look around at killboard with black ops, its is clear they are succesful at what they do.
Once you get jumped by black ops, you got 1 minute or less to survive even when you are in a battleship. Its that fast!
Jumping distance and fuel consumption is the only thing that stops from making this type of game op.

i could also quote you similarly but i am too lazy and you are not worht it. the funny thing is that you cant beat this:
if you look around at killboard with black ops, some people are succesful at what they do.
Once you u are stupid enough to not get safe when u see a neutral in system,, and your not aligned when he decloaks and he gets a lock, a tackle and cyno-¦s in a black ops, you might die depending on your tank and friends that could come to help. Its that fast!
Jumping distance, fuel consumption, 2 accounts, another alt with good tackle skills and cyno L5, 2 monitor, fast computer, good multitasking skils, fuel calulations, jumprange calulations, good black op ship skills, perfect navigation skills, good damage skills, racial bs5, 600m hull cost and faction damage mods is the only thing that stops from making this type of game op.

Range buff. 2,5AU baseis simple not enough

Then they need T2 resist and standard T1 slot layout.

Would be nice to get the JP fuel consumption lowered or removed. Having blockade runners on tow is anoying.

T3 able to light covert cyno's, though that might be a bit OP.

And no, as much fun it would be, covert ops cloaking Black ops BS's would be seriously overpowered.

bump out of intrest

lol you are an idiot, that's what they were initially meant for, and why black ops cynos were allowed in jammed systems

BE also uses billion ISK fittings, including on their nightmares or machs. They also have much more going on behind the scenes than a roaming gang of Redeemers. You are truely simple minded..

What part of english you dont understand?

I tried to make a good fit on EFT but i appears that you still get the sig radius penalty from cloaking devises... Is this right?

I would like to get a Black ops ship but i'm not willing to fill my mids with sensor boosters to make it worth flying.

- Black ops have really high base sig res.
- A single sensor booster will make you lock stuff fast.
- You have the option of not using a cloak.

+ The stats doesnt say anything about a bonus to sig penality from cloaks.
+ Filling with sb's? Hope your not planning on using these beautiful ships for losec gatecamps :-D

......
Firstly, I don't like the idea of exclusive pvp/pve ships. All ships should be able to fill both roles, and for the most part they do. (Exceptions being the scorpion, blood raider ships, and combat recons.) Also, I'd like to note to all you folks who will scream "carebear!" that pve really only has a single exclusive pve ship class, marauders, where pvp has several. Secondly, I want to counter a specific notion that people seem to have. Huge alliance vs. alliance fleets are not where the majority of players are. Certainly a lot, and probably the more dedicated players, i.e. the forum posters, are. But most people exist in small, unaffiliated corps with just a few members, like me. I don't have stats on that, but still.... I suppose I should note that I have used my blackops for plexing with a small gang, using the mobility to bypass gatecamps and the guns for fire support, because my corp couldn't support the logistics of blackops pvp.

........

I realize tech 1 is supposed to be multipurpose, and tech 2 is supposed to be more specific, but lets look at HACs. Many people use them both for ratting/plexing and pvping, often with the same fit. My point being that a ship should appeal to a variety of people, even if it focuses on a specific role. Basically, what you or I might do with a black ops is not the same as someone else.

Small corps are not interested in getting black ops because of the logistics required. That's a shame. They're still subcapitals. Imho, their role should be: moving through zero sec unhindered. The application of that role is up to the player.

So here are my suggestions:

1. Increase jump range, and/or significantly reduce fuel usage. Like others have stated, the fuel cost is unmanageable if you want to do anything outside a major operation. I want to be able to move and take my fleet through multiple areas. This is their core ability, it should be the focus of the class, in other words: useful and able for a single pilot to manage.

1. Blackops Cloaking needs to be fixed. The biggest problem I have experienced in the past, is that when people see me in warp, they martial the troops. "Holy Crap, 1 bil ship on scan kill it kill it kill it!" This is a problem. It makes doing anything stealthy difficult. If you are pvping, it gives away your fleet. The solution is just as difficult to manage, though. I hear people saying that a covops cloak (which would solve this) would be OP. That may be true, but the covops cloak sits at the heart of stealth operations. My suggestion is to either: give them a covops cloak, and the standard targeting delay, or do something radical, like get rid of the cloak bonuses altogether and instead give blackops the unique ability not to show up on d-scan (but still with combat probes). It is IN WARP that the black ops must be stealthy, not on the battlefield.

2. More carefully define their combat role. I like the concept of the widow. Its like a big falcon. So I suggest ONE of the following: Give them racial Ewar. I.e. redeemer with TD/Neuts, panther with TP/webs, sin with sensor damps/scramber range, and add another ECM bonus to the widow. Second option, make them snipers. Give them Marauder style weapon setup, 100% damage, and half turrets, 3 to be exact. That way they can fit larger weapons to gain a little dps and a lot of range. Give them an optimal bonus and decent targeting range. Final option, make them super tanky, but with limited dps, sacrilege/damnation style with some other support bonus, maybe command links. (Careful thought would have to go into that one though.)

3. Get rid of the stupid massive drone bays. Heavy drones plus stealth equals fail. Give them 50 bandwidth and 75 capacity, or even just 25/25. Big slow drones are counter-productive for the role. In turn, buff their other weapons systems.

5. Do something radical. One idea is to be able to jump/bridge to a system without a cyno. I imagine when you want to jump, you are taken to the solar system map to choose a location. Cynos always seemed stupid to me, but I guess they make sense for capitals, because anyone can train cyno 1. Not for blackops. People will probably scream at me for this one, but I think with careful thought, it would work nicely. A jump delay would be necessary, like 5 min before you can jump again, or perhaps like a minute charge time. It helps with the stealth and mobility role. I was also not happy about having to start an alt, and train for cyno 5 just to use the blackops functionality. Seems to be a very poor design to demand another character sacrifice a month of training time just so you can use the most basic functionality of your ship.

8. Split the class into two, like force and combat recons. One that is faster and stealthier, but designed to work with fewer ships, or even solo. The pilgrim is excellent at mag/radar sights. I want the same functionality on a bigger ship.

Perhaps:
Ghost ops --> unparalleled stealth movement through null, but no jump portal gen. Good dps, but low hp. Good for some solo work, and ratting/running sights. Like big force recons

Black ops --> Slower, tankier, and meaner than Ghost ops, but not as stealthy. Does have jump portal gen, and possibly ewar.

The widow has the most useful of bonuses.

Yeah, there's nothing quite as useful as an ECM boat with 90mm scan res.

God no, triple plated and trimarked Redeemers with T2 resists would easily get close to 300k EHP.

Yeah, there's nothing quite as useful as an ECM boat with 90mm scan res.

i could also quote you similarly but i am too lazy and you are not worht it. the funny thing is that you cant beat this:
if you look around at killboard with black ops, its is clear they are succesful at what they do.
Once you get jumped by black ops, you got 1 minute or less to survive even when you are in a battleship. Its that fast!
Jumping distance and fuel consumption is the only thing that stops from making this type of game op.

What they really need is for the 3 not the widow to fall in line with it. They should all do Ewar, the fact that there obviously specialized ships for the purpose of fleet projection, and just the Caldari one force multiples is IMHO an over sight that needs to be addressed.

No, warp disruptor, newt, web duh. The other races have 2 Ewar types so probably the more relevant one, go look at there force recons.
Don't act like that wouldn't be awesome to have a second BS with newt bonus, or a BS that deckoaks and throws a point 40k, or webbs you to 2 digit number for speed.

But what about them being just bigger recons? If they could be the recon then couldn't you use your jump portal for lots of SB instead? Don't get me wrong they need bumps all around for shure(10% to one resist thats the lowest of all T2 ships!!!) I have already stated earlyer that I am also for bigger fuel bay/lower fuel use AND further range. Make it a for real T2 with some acule resist and fittings.

So with all that? I think that looks good.

No, warp disruptor, newt, web duh. The other races have 2 Ewar types so probably the more relevant one, go look at there force recons.
Don't act like that wouldn't be awesome to have a second BS with newt bonus, or a BS that deckoaks and throws a point 40k, or webbs you to 2 digit number for speed.

Does a black ops fleet that jumps in, jump back out again after the fight? Or do they have to travel through the gates to get back to where they came from?

Does a black ops fleet that jumps in, jump back out again after the fight? Or do they have to travel through the gates to get back to where they came from?

So what your saying is my widow SHOULD get a range and ecm and ecm burst bounus? ok!
Also lots of the pie ships now have one of there races ewar as a bounus, so what they weren't like that the hole time, they should change back.

Its should be clear to all that the Black Op is still in prenerf form like how lots of stuff usta be release in the olde times of EvE.
The other members of its tree have better resist and higher scan rez than there T1 counter parts.

Also only HAC's, AF's always keep there T1 bonuses, the rest get a change up, that or just my logi in my hanger is missing its sweet mining bonus.

Just because recons can already use it dose not mean more or different types of Ewar in the fleet would be bad, never had my Falcon turned down form a fleet because there was a Lachesis or an other Falcon for that matter.

You are the troll here.

Definitely have to go with a faction cloak bud..

That IS with a faction cloak. Although, it's not like it matters. The difference between Faction and T2 is like 91mm vs 96mm. Woop-de-do.

Don't fit a cloak. I'm serious. It gimps the fit and takes a utility high that has better uses.

-Liang

Without a cloak, a Scorpion is a whole entire hull with a better use than a Widow.

That IS with a faction cloak. Although, it's not like it matters. The difference between Faction and T2 is like 91mm vs 96mm. Woop-de-do.

I'm just gonna keep bumping this until I get a Reply from a DEV!

The Scorpion has a jump drive and a 30% ECM strength bonus? Really?

-Liang

This man speaks the truth.

Though I did swap my redeemer out for a shield tanked panther. Can pretty much out run anything but the usual angel/minie nano stuff.

I think most of the people saying B-ops are OP, are those that gets greifed by them, aka people that want afk cloaking and the like nerfed so they can rat/mine in peace in null sec. With other words the usual turds that run away at the first sign of trouble.

Black ops dont need buffing. They fille a niche playstyle and if that doesnt appeal to you, dont fly it

I would love to see Black Ops ships used more, perhaps a change in mechanics is needed instead of a straight forward buff, there needs to be a reason to use Black Ops instead of the usual bait drake with cyno and a titan-bridge =P

I'm also of the opinion a simple jump range buff would do the trick, maybe coupled with a reduction in fuel use.

Im not saying this change would be bad, just remember they can still use gates, and as part there of is pretty flexible in regards to jump range.

I also have to say that when I first starting using it, I was shocked at how much fuel it cost to portal ships around. Bombers and such aren't too bad. But recons... good Lord! Do they really have to cost 10x the fuel of a frigate? I know it's tied to mass. But lord almighty. That's steep.

Also the base Black Ops jump range goes from 2.5ly to 3.25ly. The range doesn't massively go up, but it helps a ton with inter-region logistics and for god awful regions where all the systems are far apart (Amarr space generally)

If the bo ship can't warp cloaked. give it a mini doomsday. hot drop and doomsday someone then leave would be super!

i couldn't find the dislike button so I'm posting to tell you you're dumb hth

it wouldn't be a titan doomsday. come-on you can't be that simple... could you? SB has the bomb why can't BO ships have a doomsday? :D

Frankly, it shouldn't be a black ops buff. It should be a black ops redo. I mean yeah the jump bridge is useful. But that's all it does. The widow has the most useful of bonuses. But, it is the only one that does. Shouldn't have been the domi that became the black ops ship.

If the bo ship can't warp cloaked. give it a mini doomsday. hot drop and doomsday someone then leave would be super!

black ops are not solo pwn ships, supers currently are... black ops are horrible broken. Unfortualy we always have forum trolls saying all black op are so awesome as the redeemer, witch might be the only correct functioning one (not including jump stuffs)

lol you can forget about it.
The countless of reasons already named by me and a few others more than show that black ops are OP already and its the same reason why none of th DEV will post in this thread or ever will touch on black ops.
There are corporations in eve that have a proven track record for YEARS using black ops with incredible statistic or kill ratio using them!. To come here and talk all the nonsence that black ops need a buff, its really a bad joke cos those statistics blow a hole in all your arguments.

You have only proven that you are a troll, really, so I'm not feeding you. If they were as OP as seemingly only you believes, then CCP can comment as such and at least tell us they won't be buffed. Even if you are right, CCP could be decent enough to say so. You, however, do not speak for CCP, so don't talk like it.

Besides, your constant whining only continues to bump the thread, so please, by all means, continue.

I would love to see some changes for sure...

One thing is the Black OPS battleships themself and another is the current black ops cyno mechanics.
- The battleships themself doesn't see much action apart from very large hotdrops.
- Hotdrops are a little bit too easy to get away with and rarely promotes a fight.

The black ops battleship are unattractive to most people because:
- They cost a fortune
- They are fragile
- They cannot be fully utilized in hi-sec

Black OPS hotdropping is a bit too easy because:
- Agressor usually has full control of wether to engage or not
- If things go wrong every ship can cloak up

I would recommend lowering build cost of black ops battleships to 2/3 of the current prices.
I would recommend increasing the tank on black ops battleships but make them slower.
I would recommend having all races having a dps/tank theme and leave Ewar for recons.
I would recommend putting a limit on the number of ships 1 black ops battleship can bridge pr time.
I would recommend a small delay on ships being cynoed in giving targets a chance to react.
I would recommend a small delay on targeting when making a hotdrop.

Pinky

I don't want to let this thread die until I hear from a DEV.

I would welcome any buff that would allow small gang tactics to become more used in eve. This blob with a bigger blob strategy is maddness and leads to fights being a huge node crashing cluster ****. Also not all players want to be sov alliance slaves.

Sign me up for dropping behind enemy lines with a BLOPS fleet and shoving it right up a Supercarrier or Titans tailpipe. Then we could have some tactic against these ridiculous Super Cap fleets raping their way across EVE with no consequences.

But that just might be ME

Me neither.

The best thing that could be done for BO's would be the removal of local or at least a delayed local. (might clear a few other problems up as well)

This does not address the ships' capabilities, which are fairly weak. It is a T2 battleship with, generally, a battlecruiser's capability in terms of EHP and DPS.

[quote=Morrigu Storm]The best thing that could be done for BO's would be the removal of local or at least a delayed local. (might clear a few other problems up as well)

This is a slightly sore topic as I've got a pair of Widows sitting in low-sec which have proved to
be a less than effective investment.

I'm not currently active but over a three year period my friends and I made Aeschee and its
surroundings a hub of piracy.

As a pirate fleet in low-sec, you are typically looking to keep eyes on local gates
with a view to producing a surprise for enemy forces that you can deal with.

The Black-OPs fleet jump gave that possibility but the practicality did
not add up because of their short range and high fuel cost. It was simply
more effective to manouever fleets through the normal
jump network,

-- Haze