I think this is a great idea.

It would be cool if there was a way to tell which hole is which before warping to it, so we could keep one of them closed for a while if we chose to. That might be making it too easy though

As of Hyperion, we are planning to have K162 signatures appear as soon as the first player jumps through their wormhole connection. This prevents players in the destination system from receiving unfair early intelligence while also ensuring that a vigilant player can determine if a potentially hostile intruder has entered their system through a new wormhole connection.

I think this is a great idea.

It would be cool if there was a way to tell which hole is which before warping to it, so we could keep one of them closed for a while if we chose to. That might be making it too easy though

As a player who lived in a c4 wormhole for quite some time(and no longer does) I'm welcoming the changes of more statics with open arms. I do however believe, that the changes are not really concentrating on the "real" issue with c4's. And there are a few.

1. The logistical part of c4's are a nightmare, they're always behind atleast one WH (c3 or c4) whereas a c3 can connect directly to K-space. While it's awesome for someone doing PvP, to have access to more potential prey it's still as hard as before to do actual fueling, and/or buy a skillbook, update a clone... Or whatever you need in k-space.

2. The sites compared to the isk value, is simply not worth it. C3's offer anomalies that are far easier to run, than in c4's. Not only does the c4's do way more damage, they also neut alot more. But perhaps the biggest difference, is the range of the spawn's.
Most spawns, are at atleast 80-120 km away, which is a major difference compared to any class below, that is more in the range of ~30-60 km away.

A C3 site, average out at about 60-80 million isk, and a c4 at about 100-110.
You can run a c3 solo, you can not(without alot of bling) run a c4 solo. This means you need to team up with a buddy, and that right there halfs your income per site, and to some extend makes it worth less than just doing the c3 yourself.



Otherwise all the other changes seems okay, with abit of iteration.
However one thing i think you should consider, is to increase the amount of WH's of all classes, seeing that it's getting more and more crowded.


/Fonac fanboy of CCP Fozzie!

How is this useful to those who already have a C4 with C2 or C1 static and already get a ton of traffic? I personally think this should be implemented only on C4 systems with static C4s and higher.

Logistics for living in a C4 is not a nightmare. It all depends on the capabilities for planning/execution of the inhabitants.
If anything it will be more difficult now because rolling for a suitable chain to haul through is hindered by two new factors that were not in place before:
a. you need to deal with two statics instead of one (rolling both or leaving a scout on one)
b. mass affects the distance a ship ends up off the wormhole after jumping (using Orca-s to mass the wormhole is more difficult)

... Can a hole have two same-class statics?

So all that said, will the new w-space static for the C4s be guaranteed of a different type than the current static? Or could you possibly have a C4 with a static C4 and another static C4? I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that possibility, but I'm curious.

Just confirming that with the new static mechanic, the K162 side will NOT spawn (un probable) until the residents from the other side jump through. So does this mean one can effectively seal their static until they are ready to jump through?

Just confirming that with the new static mechanic, the K162 side will NOT spawn (un probable) until the residents from the other side jump through. So does this mean one can effectively seal their static until they are ready to jump through?

The new static is indeed guaranteed to be for a different class than your current static.

As per the dev blog no, the additional static can not be to the same system class as the first one.

Currently if residents of a certain WH collapse their static connection and do not warp to the new one the effect is the same. It is not opened.

- A static to a C1 is just going to suck, due to mass limitations on C1 connections. Ever spent 3 hours rolling a hole in battlecruisers? Yeah, that's a C1 :(

- C3 sites vs. C4 sites is a big area of concern. For PvE purposes, if you can live in a C4 effectively enough to warrant choosing them over a C3, then you can do a C5. Otherwise you're better off living in a C3.

I might have my numbers off (it's early), but if I remember right you can't jump a capital through a C4 connection (you can with a C5/C6). That being the case, does it make sense to allow the second C4 static to be a k-space static to low/null (but not to hi-sec?)

The new static is indeed guaranteed to be for a different class than your current static.

There is a pretty large group of people that come to wormhole space specifically to not deal with capitals. There are others who don't want to bother with capital evictions and seeding. With the dual static, the C4 groups now have two Wormholes to farm (aka Both their statics which goes to other wormholes).

First off, while I am glade wormholes and C4s in specific are getting some work done, I have extremely mixed feelings about the changes coming to C4s. This is as person who currently co-runs a C4 hole.

Current the two biggest problems bar far with C4s is the difficult logistics trying to move stuff in and out. But by far and away the biggest problem is the Isk making capability of them. C3s are much easier to run, while C5s have a MUCH higher payouts.

The new changes will improve logistics without a doubt, but the other much bigger problem still remains. Now if you are lucky you will get a new C3 static, but the is very luck based and also in no way improves the C4 its self. PVE is going to become a lot more dangerous with the increased traffic, but the reward will not be increased anywhere near as much.

eve is a game of risk worth reward, so I honestly can't get behind these C4 changes until we see an increased pay out from C4s along side the incoming increased risk.

IGÇÖm not sure what youGÇÖre making in c3's but I know how much you can make solo in a c4...... The only thing I could see being done is lower the stupid spawn ranges and make more than 2 sites viable to run to make isk (do npcs really need to spawn 200+km from warp in?).

C4 income doesnGÇÖt require a buff other than making it more scalable for small-mid size groups it shouldnGÇÖt discourage you to run sites with your corp mates over solo. The duel static does push towards making c4 site running with a couple scout alts less risk free and encourage you to do it as a group but could use some more incentive.

People complaining about money from c4s being too low is a joke. Not high compared to many k-space activities, but for wormholes it is top, bar escalations.
Traffic will also not really change by how many statics you have since you just close them anyways if you don-¦t need them right now. It is already way down since many of the big/good c2-c4/high corps have closed their doors in the past 2 years. Very few people actually like having a c4static for anything other but farming. The number of pvp corps with a c5/6 static c4 is probably in the single digits. Also the c4 guys will always have the capitaladvantage, there are some in almost every c4.
The only thing this changes that people will see static c4s as a useful thing again and so c4s will stop being the australian outback where you log in once every few days, farm your sites and never meet a living soul in weeks.
Also it will already change with the addition of more random holes.

A C3 site, average out at about 60-80 million isk

Really nice seing all the non-C4 residents going "+1, great change", and those that actual living in C4 saying they fear its a bad thing, forcing people to move away from C4 instead of drawing more people into it.. Congrats non-C4 people, you might just get your own personal highway-class of WHs, with no targets in them..

[I dont want to sound rude or personal. But you simply dont know what you're talking about.

iskwise, the numbers are out there. undisbutable numbers.

The thing about having caps, in c4's. Not so sure, i mean, there isn't really a benefit for having one in a c4, other than easy farming is there?

If you need more C4 residents to confirm/deny this being a good thing, why not ask former pilots of SUSU (many now having moved on to NoHo, Hard Knocks etc) and why they left C4 for higher classes. Im sure none of them will say its because it only had 1 static.[/u]

C3s payout an average of 70mill per site while C4s payout an average 90mill, but are much harder, and will now become much less safe. This patch will push more people out of C4s then it will attract them in.

The idea of "adding a new entry point will make them more used" is very short sighted especially due to the fact that their biggest problem was inefficient isk making in the first place. That's why I stated if they want their reward needs to be increased, not only to fix their previous weakness, but to now make them even worth living in with the increased risk.

C4 income doesnGÇÖt require a buff other than making it more scalable for small-mid size groups it shouldnGÇÖt discourage you to run sites with your corp mates over solo. The duel static does push towards making c4 site running with a couple scout alts less risk free and encourage you to do it as a group but could use some more incentive.

As one of the few groups thats actually lived in a C4 for over a year now,

Wow now I feel old.

We are coming up on our second year in C4 space. We are isolated in a C4/C4, not because we are against PVP, but mostly because we wanted to truly feel like we were living out on the ragged edge. I've lived in other WH's and it felt largely pointless in a C2/C3/HS with an easy way back to k-space every day.

At the same time we are a small corp of old farts with busy lives, so we don't have the numbers to hold our own in the cap heavy C5+ world. C4's have given us the right mix of living deep in unknown space, risk, but without worrying that every time I go on a family vacation I'm gonna get a text that we are getting evicted.

That being said I'm not opposed to a second static idea. I would have the same concerns that any C4 dweller has. Which would probably be the same as anyone in say a C1 or C3 finding out they are getting a second static. Mainly hoping whatever second static we get doesn't totally suck and make us want to move out.

On the other hand, our slim PVP pickings have become even more so in recent months. So if a second static can help revialize that I would be happy.

That being said I feel similar to this idea as all the rest. Part of it i like, part of it not so much. But EVE has always been about a changing landscape and we will adjust and adapt.

If I were to make a decision now, personally I would hold off on this change. Not saying don't do it. But first I'd just be happy with C4's getting more random wormholes. Well ANY outgoing random wormholes. If there is going to be an increased number I think that having C4's get them could be enough to revitalize them without totally changing the landscape. If not then the dual static could still be implemented down the road.

C3s payout an average of 70mill per site while C4s payout an average 90mill, but are much harder, and will now become much less safe. This patch will push more people out of C4s then it will attract them in.

The idea of "adding a new entry point will make them more used" is very short sighted especially due to the fact that their biggest problem was inefficient isk making in the first place. That's why I stated if they want their reward needs to be increased, not only to fix their previous weakness, but to now make them even worth living in with the increased risk.

So many bear tears here, really you have had it too good for too long hidden away in chains that don't interconnect with larger chains and that time is over accept it now or leave.

I recently moved to a C4 and I can't wait for the added opportunity this change will provide in PVP and PVE. I will have to await the list of matching the new statics with current WH's to decide if my current home is optimal to my needs or inhabit a new C4.

This is a long overdue change and combine this with the added effort to roll away the statics I can see a lot more C4 chains being open to "explore".

So many bear tears here, really you have had it too good for too long hidden away in chains that don't interconnect with larger chains and that time is over accept it now or leave.

I recently moved to a C4 and I can't wait for the added opportunity this change will provide in PVP and PVE. I will have to await the list of matching the new statics with current WH's to decide if my current home is optimal to my needs or inhabit a new C4.

This is a long overdue change and combine this with the added effort to roll away the statics I can see a lot more C4 chains being open to "explore".

I must say,
Like I Said in my other reply, EVE is already a numbers game, Some players arent looking to fly with 100's of other pilots, but instead all they want is their small portion of space that they can share with a few people to do as they wish!

So many bear tears here, really you have had it too good for too long hidden away in chains that don't interconnect with larger chains and that time is over accept it now or leave.

I recently moved to a C4 and I can't wait for the added opportunity this change will provide in PVP and PVE. I will have to await the list of matching the new statics with current WH's to decide if my current home is optimal to my needs or inhabit a new C4.

This is a long overdue change and combine this with the added effort to roll away the statics I can see a lot more C4 chains being open to "explore".

Not terribly excited simply due to that fact that we've recently occupied a C4 specifically because it had a single C3 static. That environment suited us well. Obviously a concern is what completely random static we will end up with will very much determine the suitability of the hole for us.

Is there any information that could be made available on what combinations C4s will get based on their current static types? Similar to how C2 with C3 will always have a HS. Will a C4 with a current C3 have a specific kind or possible set of additional statics or be totally random?

Overall, I am far more in favor of increased spawns/randomness vs. additional statics in C4 space since the later permanently changes the landscape of our chosen system potentially resulting in the need to move if the result is unfavorable.

EDIT: Clarification on information request and additional thoughts

This'll be interesting. Glad there's no K SPace connection, I like being out in deep space.

How will you be assigning the new statics? Opposite of current as in C1-3's get a C4-6 and vise versa? Or completely random selection?

Blah, no thanks.

More connections is not the issue. You can easily find Wh connections. The problem is finding people online and playing. That is your sticking point. If you reworked PvE content so people would log in to play on a nearly daily basis rather then just to shuffle reaction around or do a little PI. MAKE PVE FUN! that way you will get people logging in. That is how you get player interaction.

Also, remember one of the big draws for Wh living is the isolation. You can be a space hermit in WH space. No place in Eve has the frontier feel that living in a C4 gives you . Adding more statics and increasing the random WH spawn rate will reduce that unique feel. Is it really worth providing a small increase in ganks to potentially eliminate that unique Eve lifestyle?

...

I just wish there was somewhere in eve that smaller corps like mine could fly dangerously and still remain profitable. We had that in our C4, but it looks like it won't last much longer.

If you want isolation go rent a dead end nullsec pocket.

At a much higher cost and you are not holding your own space. You are just a lacky.

I like Wh space. I don't really like the way null sec works. At least not a much as WH space.

Well then get on board and accept this change and start looking at what statics would better suit your corp, or look at another Wh class.

Well then get on board and accept this change and start looking at what statics would better suit your corp, or look at another Wh class.

1. The logistical part of c4's are a nightmare, they're always behind atleast one WH (c3 or c4) whereas a c3 can connect directly to K-space. While it's awesome for someone doing PvP, to have access to more potential prey it's still as hard as before to do actual fueling, and/or buy a skillbook, update a clone... Or whatever you need in k-space.

2. The sites compared to the isk value, is simply not worth it. C3's offer anomalies that are far easier to run, than in c4's. Not only does the c4's do way more damage, they also neut alot more. But perhaps the biggest difference, is the range of the spawn's.
Most spawns, are at atleast 80-120 km away, which is a major difference compared to any class below, that is more in the range of ~30-60 km away.

A C3 site, average out at about 60-80 million isk, and a c4 at about 100-110.
You can run a c3 solo, you can not(without alot of bling) run a c4 solo. This means you need to team up with a buddy, and that right there halfs your income per site, and to some extend makes it worth less than just doing the c3 yourself.

/Fonac fanboy of CCP Fozzie!

Please, add Capital Escalation Wave to the WH-systems of all classes! Let this waves be different in the number of ships or their class. But the situation when you can earn 1 billion per hour in WH C5, and not more than 200 million in C4, is ridiculous.

As a player who lived in a c4 wormhole for quite some time(and no longer does) I'm welcoming the changes of more statics with open arms. I do however believe, that the changes are not really concentrating on the "real" issue with c4's. And there are a few.


2. The sites compared to the isk value, is simply not worth it. C3's offer anomalies that are far easier to run, than in c4's. Not only does the c4's do way more damage, they also neut alot more. But perhaps the biggest difference, is the range of the spawn's.
Most spawns, are at atleast 80-120 km away, which is a major difference compared to any class below, that is more in the range of ~30-60 km away.

Why do you feel the need to add your 5cents every time someone comments with a different view to you? You are insulting people in this thread calling them bears and swinging you d... around like you are the best Pvper alive.

Your argument is actually very flawed. I am clearly a Pvper, my two co-owner of our C4 are Pvpers, one being on the top 10 in Eve list last month, but we use our C4 to fund our Pvp not to create it.

The only thing this patch will do is benefit large wormhole entities while completely screwing over small groups. CCP claim to be wanting to improve desire for C4s while all this patch will do is make them less desirable.

I will say the same thing I have been whining about in this whole thread, CCP if you want to increase risk you need to increase reward, or you are just going to have one more broken system added to your rapidly growing list.

Bullcrap. My corp lived in a c4 and we had several marauder pilots that would make 250-350 mill an hour off running the sites.

Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the introduction of a second static connection for Class 4 wormholes that we announced in our recently released dev blog.

A C3 site, average out at about 60-80 million isk, and a c4 at about 100-110.
You can run a c3 solo, you can not(without alot of bling) run a c4 solo. This means you need to team up with a buddy, and that right there halfs your income per site, and to some extend makes it worth less than just doing the c3 yourself.

That is a threshold problem on any PVE content. When you scale the difficulty and income.. suddenly you reach the point where you cannot run solo, then the real income suddenly HALVES, That makes that exact point of the scale worthless. On other hand if ccp just double the income at that specific point.. then someoen will ultra bling his ship and make a stupid amount of money

Why incursions were more successful? Because the system scales with a lowe and upper limit.

Solution. Make the site rewards not static, make them scale depending on the number of characters that were involved in shoting the things since its spawn up to completion (a minimum amount need to be calcuated to avoid just tricking the system with several alts). At the completion then a last reward is granted.. scaled based on this calculation.

That can solve compeltely the issue you point.

That is a threshold problem on any PVE content. When you scale the difficulty and income.. suddenly you reach the point where you cannot run solo, then the real income suddenly HALVES, That makes that exact point of the scale worthless. On other hand if ccp just double the income at that specific point.. then someone will ultra bling his ship and make a stupid amount of money

Why incursions were more successful? Because the system scales with a lower and upper limit.

Solution. Make the site rewards not static, make them scale depending on the number of characters that were involved in shooting the things since its spawn up to completion (a minimum amount need to be calculated to avoid just tricking the system with several alts). At the completion then a last reward is granted.. scaled based on this calculation.

That can solve completely the issue you point.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're aware that the PVE reward progression isn't ideal across the different wormhole classes, and this is something on our radar. Your CSM members are helping us do a bit of mapping and plan making at the moment on that issue.

We're aware that this change will be less welcomed by those who live in C4s with the intention of isolating themselves, but overall we beleive that this change will be positive for Wormholes as a whole. You may find that C4s with C4/C1 statics and other similar configurations may still meet your needs well.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're aware that the PVE reward progression isn't ideal across the different wormhole classes, and this is something on our radar. Your CSM members are helping us do a bit of mapping and plan making at the moment on that issue.

We're aware that this change will be less welcomed by those who live in C4s with the intention of isolating themselves, but overall we beleive that this change will be positive for Wormholes as a whole. You may find that C4s with C4/C1 statics and other similar configurations may still meet your needs well.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're aware that the PVE reward progression isn't ideal across the different wormhole classes, and this is something on our radar. Your CSM members are helping us do a bit of mapping and plan making at the moment on that issue.

We're aware that this change will be less welcomed by those who live in C4s with the intention of isolating themselves, but overall we beleive that this change will be positive for Wormholes as a whole. You may find that C4s with C4/C1 statics and other similar configurations may still meet your needs well.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

Why not giving C5/6 a second static since those are the ones in the need of content while whining at the same time loosing thier WH open/close(target select) button?
If they need to roll 12 times an evenening(as read somewhere above) to get the desired content, they might be happy with 12 k-162 or wanderings a day?

And btw. fix the spawn ranges accordingly. If its 120km in c4 make it more in higher class holes.
IMHO the real living in C5+, being able to do full escalations in 5 minutes while having ONE safley controlled static.

Well, all that comin changes simply forces smaller groups to form/join bigger ones... *sigh*

Why not giving C5/6 a second static since those are the ones in the need of content while whining at the same time loosing thier WH open/close(target select) button?
If they need to roll 12 times an evenening(as read somewhere above) to get the desired content, they might be happy with 12 k-162 or wanderings a day?

Fozzie, are you in a position to explain the thinking behind how the incoming changes will benefit smaller wormhole groups? Instead of just making it even easier for bigger wormhole alliances to dictate what happens In WH space.

C4s are currently very good for small groups as its safer due to the lower traffic, with the increase in traffic it will become a lot more dangerous, making it much harder to make isk, as well as increasing the risk of having some big entity destroy all your stuff because they are board.

I am glad you are aware that there are discrepancies in isk making, but your response gives the impression that its not something on the top of the list? Would it be safe to assume that the currently announced changes will be the only ones coming this patch at least? It would be nice to know so that we can start moving out of our C4 or not. I don't mean that to be a childish statement, just the harsh reality that making isk making in a C4 even less efficient, and now very dangerous to bat, there is honestly no reason to live in a C4 anymore.

I respect what you guys are doing and I actually don't disagree with adding a new static, I just believe that the benefit should be scaled accordingly with the risk.

PVE is not linear and it shouldnt be. Higher class, higher risk at least during the PVE. Dont you dare fix it. Itll screw small ones. And forcing ppl in C4s to guard more then single entrance, that will SURELY make them more popular.

C2s are so great for mostly simple reason - HIGHSEC. Constant access. C4 with c4 and C5, YAAAY. Logoff.

Giving a second static to C5/c6's would be greatly appreciated then we can leave our one static connected to people like you when you hide in your pos and rage roll the other for targets, I don't think you want that. By giving c4's the second static they are giving you more control over it while still opening up a whole area of space that used to be linear chains of nothing but people logged off or hiding.

how does more static in C4 help? apart from need to guard another place? If I want another chain, roll 6 BS.

Unless your rolling more then 3 connections it really adds no time to rolling unless its hostile you have to wait out polarization anyway so it does give you slightly more risk as there might be someone to try and kill you. But by giving it to the c5/c6 crowd you raise your chance of getting connected to those big bad buggy men who you fear so much and they wont let you roll.

Hello there,

I am CEO of a 3 months old corp. We are a 15 active men (across 25 chars) corp living in a C4 with a C3 static.

Just wanted to say that we are a growing corp and that having another static in our C4 will ruin it. We have chosen C4 because it's the best type of hole we could have hoped for : one static with low traffic, easy to close with orca support (we have no cap pilot), easy to farm with 3 tengus, and a good ground to hunt anom runners soloing the C3's. We pay our ships by farming the C4 when we have anoms spawn. How will we do if T3 fleets gets catapulted in our hole all the time ? We don't have the manpower to stop them, and we basically need to move.

...

EDIT : C5 for us, should have been the next step, not C2 or C3. Don't nerf C4's, add statics in C6's where the highly skilled PvP is.

4. Your carebear attitude disgusts me, and why you like the quiet C4. You might find interacting (even though often violent at first) makes the game more fun, and you'll be surprised how cool the WH community actually is. AKA "hey guys help us kill some nullsec guy 4 jumps from here, join fleet in local" - common ground = killing nullsec people.

Good post but you're thinking is flawed.

1. C4 having 2nd static will just mean better WH management and will help you scan/dscan better, aka getting gud.
2. Extra static = more opportunities of more k-spaces, making logistics easier.
3. You're comparing your C4 static C3 - which is one of the easier wh's to live in. Other C4's are terrible and under utilised when compared to other classes. [insert CCP graphic here]
4. Your carebear attitude disgusts me, and why you like the quiet C4. You might find interacting (even though often violent at first) makes the game more fun, and you'll be surprised how cool the WH community actually is. AKA "hey guys help us kill some nullsec guy 4 jumps from here, join fleet in local" - common ground = killing nullsec people.
5. By the sounds of things, a lower class wormhole may suit better, you can roll it easier and you can still get good c2 > c3 farming wh's.
6. Plenty of experienced pilots live in lower class wh's, I wouldn't call it a step down from a c5. It's just a different life. Moving "up" to a class 5 is actually about active people rather than op skilled characters imo at least.

PVE is not linear and it shouldnt be. Higher class, higher risk at least during the PVE. Dont you dare fix it. Itll screw small ones. And forcing ppl in C4s to guard more then single entrance, that will SURELY make them more popular.

C2s are so great for mostly simple reason - HIGHSEC. Constant access. C4 with c4 and C5, YAAAY. Logoff.

In this thread, farmers gonna whine, pvpers gonna shine.
Small corps gonna tremble.

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're aware that the PVE reward progression isn't ideal across the different wormhole classes, and this is something on our radar. Your CSM members are helping us do a bit of mapping and plan making at the moment on that issue.

We're aware that this change will be less welcomed by those who live in C4s with the intention of isolating themselves, but overall we beleive that this change will be positive for Wormholes as a whole. You may find that C4s with C4/C1 statics and other similar configurations may still meet your needs well.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

I think you will find i have more then 5c and i will throw it around however i feel, and i like how all the C4 residents are coming out and engaging on the WH forums for the first time after never having discussed C4 ideas in the countless threads that have discussed them. (The only person i see in here that has ever discussed C4's is from Sama Guild that i threatened to evict form C4 space and now they have left C4 space..... )

Higher class, more isk risked, but less risk because harder to engade and less traffic is more like it.
C2s are great because access to k-space including lowsec statics and a static of your choosing for your ratting needs.


I-¦ll repeat myself here again: C4 guys, none of those t3blobbing C5 groups you are so scared about have a C4 as a static, so you will see much more impact from the new randoms than from the second static. There are even barely any big C2->c4 groups left.

And you small farming groups should be superhappy, f.e. use the static c4 if you have a few peeps online, otherwise just solofarm the static c3. You have a new static c5? Finally you have access to those big gassites.
Wanna shoot people in the face and not be bored to death? Huge chains to scout with multiple pilots instead of the old C4-C4-C4-c4-c5-I-¦ll shoot myself-c5-c5-null chains.

In this thread, farmers gonna whine, pvpers gonna shine.
Small corps gonna tremble.

C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.

Wow so you consider a C4 where spawns are 125km's away and need at least 3 RR BS's or T3's but only pay a max of 90mill, vs a C3 which can be solo'ed fairly easily and pay out 70mill, or even a C5 which will pay out 700mill per site, to be fair?

Anyone who says C4 sites are fair either does not live in a C4 or is a troll. Ignoring the fact that they will now be a LOT less safer to run, increasing C4 corps expenses exponentially without increasing their profit at all.

I find it funny in a sad and pathetic way how people call C4 dwellers bears. C4 dwellers have had to deal with much harder logistics just to run very unbalanced sites for a meager profit. With the current spawn rate in a C4 it would take 1-2 weeks of running sites to payback a single RR domi fleet lost (3 RR domis) and you want to call that fair??? The more I think about the way CCP are approaching this the more if feels like a slap in the face to anyone currently living in a C4.

C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.

Aight, I will here disagree with you, but please bear in mind, this is merely my own experience and approach.

WE live in C4. Not long ago I made approx 820 millions in single hour by farming C4 with a friend. We used 3 marauders and farm barracks exclusively. And it was magnetar. Without magnetar, the whole thing drops about 33 %. Indeed, C5s pay ALOT more but, important thing is:

If you know how to best farm sites and which ones to farm, you can ensure pretty good income. You are absolutely right some sites are bull**** . Some relics spawn sleepers 200k away. Command post is hell with amount of frigs and cruisers for meager pay. But it is doable if you know the way. That applies to all 1 through 4 WHs.

Also, whats great nwo, you can roll repeatedly and when its good, you stay in static and farm it, or scout, your call. Pays greatly. With addition of 2nd static, you might get chance to farm another place yes, but you will ALWAYS have to watch your back. And that for smaller groups effectively reduces ability to properly gather cash, with extra added risk for what additional reward? I see none.

820 mill personally or divided over the 3 of you? That is 27 sites to give you each 820 mill, which is obviously impossible even if its and empty wormhole that has never been run. And you say you did that all in one hour? You sir are literally God!

More realistically you mean 820 mill over the 3 of you, which is 9 sites, even that in an hour is next to impossible even in the marauders, not to mention that having 9 Barracks's is also next to impossible. We have never had more than 11 sites in total in our C4 magnatar.

Now lets be more realistic, most C4s are occupied by smaller corps who do not have the numbers, skill and isk to move higher or to defend lower C wormholes. I can guarantee most can not and don't use maruaders, and if they did after they patch they would be loosing a lot more isk then they would be making with the increased traffic.

While I don't doubt there are very efficient ways to make isk in a C4 they are still worse then either a C5 or C3 when it comes to PVE, and those more efficient ways will be down the toilet after the patch.

I moved into a C4 for the relative peace and quiet. Please don't turn my system into grand central station...

Peace and quiet, what are you even talking about, are you sitting in your hammock under a shady tree reading a John Grisham novel?

Unless you play at 4-4 undock all day, you-¦d know C4s are epitome of quiet place for retirement. Now.

C4 sites are lame, I have no idea what C4 you live in and why you think they are fine (would be useful to explain that part).

Based on my experience (c4 no effect), a lot of the feedback posted here on C4 PVE is fairly accurate:

- C4 sites are not easy to solo, and IMO nor should they be. At the same time they should reward group work and not penalise it, as it stands C4 sites encourages small corp / solo farming which promotes lock-in mentality to maximise iskies
- Spawn ranges are too far, increasing time waiting for things to get in range
- Data and Relic sites rarely drop anything useful, only reason to hack em is for the "escalation" wave which seems to only happen very rarely
- Gas / Mining barely worth it unless you plan on building in hole
- Site respawn rate is a bit meh

What i generally see is people going to their static for sites, and those tend to be solo / multiboxers.

Dscan is fine, if you are worried about cloakies you need more/better scouts.

The comparison with mission runners is flawed. WH Data / relic / gas sites need to be scanned which offer you a bit more time whilst bearing it up, just like mission runners. Regular WH anomalies do not need to be scanned just like K-space anomalies.

I'm sorry but this is a kick in the teeth. Not only are you drastically changing my home system but you aren't even giving me the information ahead of time to see if it will continue to be suitable for living in? I have never had an account on SISI but unless I can just choose to spawn my character in my home wormhole it would be highly unlikely that I would able to find the WH to check what the static will be. If the static is a c5/c6 the WH will no longer work for us while a C4 or lower we can compete with the corps in those holes.

It is bad enough that you are drastically changing the homes of a lot of people but it's even worse that you aren't going to readily make the information accessible for us to make a decision about the future of our corp.

Been reading all the posts in this thread, while I think a lot of people have great concerns about the new dual statics I will agree that I don't think dual statics are the solution. That's NOT TO SAY I'M AGAINST the idea, but if you want to revamp C4 space then by all means do that.

We currently live in a C4 - C3 static system with no effect. We originally moved in because C4 space was known to be low traffic. After a while we've become pretty bored with our WH due to low isk payouts and we actually crave more pvp action then our WH can supply. This has to be one of the most boring holes to live in - yet peaceful. We have one cap pilot and 2-3 others training for caps and a couple months out. Personally, I would love to see some higher payouts for sites in C4, I think EVERYONE can agree this is THE deterrent from living in C4 space. I would even love to see carrier escalations in a C4 to try and get people to build them in WH space (my own opinion, not saying everyone should agree with that). Obviously make them toned down from a C5 with less payout, but not NEARLY as bad as they are now. Either C4's need to be soloable, or promote group play, not a 50/50 of both witch makes no one want to do it, like it is now.

I'm not at all opposed to the two statics idea, but I do think something needs to happen with the isk payout in C4 sites at the same time. If you can't manage your statics then IMO you probably shouldn't be in WH space. If you don't know how to close off your hole so you can farm in safety then a Google search is not far off. Not saying I'm a WH pro at all by any means. Personally I think CCP could make C4 space very fun. I just don't think dual statics are the only solution, isk really needs to be increased as well.

My PERSONAL ideal scenario for C4 space would be dual statics with 1 carrier escalation in SOME sites. Either C4 sites need to be easier, or slightly harder with more isk payout.

TL;DR
Dual statics are nice, but isk payouts need to be increased as well.

So I've been thinking about it. . .

At first I was very turned off by the idea of another static in my wormhole, but the more I think about it the more I'm starting to warm up to the idea. That being said, it's not going to do anything to help players become more active in C4 space. Just from the law of averages, it might lead to more random accidental encounters just from the increased travel-through they're likely to see, but balance that against the increased need to turtle to survive and the likelihood that many smaller corps will be moving out, you get a lot of empty space.

CCP, if you want larger corps to move in, or you want the current C4 residents to do more pvp, then you need to give us a chance to replace what we lose. As it stands right now, it takes ages to replace even the bare minimum fleet for running the combat sites in there. Whether you're looking at 3 RR Domis, a lone Marauder, or a flock of tengu, the cost for replacing lost ships is too high for C4 corps to remain viable without turtling up.

Say your bare minimum Dominix team is somehow able to run the sites with 3 ships totalling 300m each after fittings. . .
In order to afford a replacement fleet, you'd need to run between 10 and 15 Barracks depending on salvage. Let's say it takes you two weeks to get that many spawned (in my experience, it takes longer). That's about 260 mil in fuel at current Jita prices for one stick. That adds 3 more sites onto the calculation.

Assuming you have NO other expenses, your break even is 13-18 of the best sites in the class before you can afford to lose one bare minimum fleet. Keep in mind, that fleet just barely squeaks by on those sites. The payout for the work just isn't there. People turtle up, not because they're afraid of dying, but because they can't afford to replace their ships on that kind of income.

TL/DR: If you want more activity in C4s, then you need to provide a living wage, yo. People stick to c3s and c5s, avoiding c4s not because of logistics, but because of income potential

I've lived in several C4s over the years, and this change won't be the nail in the coffin of c4 corps that people are suggesting. A second static means your location can appeal to even more types of players which makes it easy to recruit and keep players. C3s are good for high SP solo PVE, C2s are good for lower SP solo PVE. Having both means everybody has something to do.

Pro-tip: Rolling two holes doesn't actually take that much longer than rolling one. Hit first hole, hit second hole, wait out timer.

Now that said, I worry that some c4s will get statics that drastically change the nature of their location. Because of how difficult they are to crash, adding a C1 static to a hole that doesn't have one would be like adding anchovies to cake. Maybe you like anchovies, but you probably don't want them put in your cake. Especially if you're in the middle of eating it (i.e. living there). Likewise, suddenly getting a c5 or c6 static might open your location up much more frequent visits from much larger and experienced PVP corporations. I don't really get why it's problematic to add another static identical to the current one, except for two c1s which would make closing that hole off almost impossible.

Getting the wrong static will most certainly be enough to convince some people to leave and the time that it takes to move in or out of a hole is enough to make a person stop playing entirely, especially if they felt like their hand was forced. It would propbably take each corp more time to move than it would for CCP to find out which holes are occupied. If a hole is empty, I think it's reasonable to add just about any kind of static to it without worry. But if a hole is occupied, here's how I'd institute the changes to avoid ruffling too many feathers.

Hole/Static - New Static
C4/C6 - C2, C3, C4, C5 or 2nd C6.
C4/C5 - C2, C3, C4, 2nd C5 or C6.
C4/C4 - C2, C3 or 2nd C4.
C4/C3 - C2, 2nd C3 or C4.
C4/C2 - 2nd C2, C3 or C4.
C4/C1 - No new static.

If it's just too difficult to change occupied holes one way, and unoccupied holes another then I'd just bite the bullet and use the above chart for all of them. At the very very least, you should announce which holes are getting which statics so players can prepare. If you don't, then you're alienating your wormhole players for no reason. Change is fine if it's reasonable and if this change is done correctly, the corps that live in c4s will benefit more than they lose.

Now that said, I worry that some c4s will get statics that drastically change the nature of their location. Because of how difficult they are to crash, adding a C1 static to a hole that doesn't have one would be like adding anchovies to cake. Maybe you like anchovies, but you probably don't want them put in your cake. Especially if you're in the middle of eating it (i.e. living there). Likewise, suddenly getting a c5 or c6 static might open your location up much more frequent visits from much larger and experienced PVP corporations. I don't really get why it's problematic to add another static identical to the current one, except for two c1s which would make closing that hole off almost impossible.

Why does everyone keep saying c1 statics are near impossible to roll? I live in a c4/c1 right now, and we roll the c1 all the time. When we get an incoming c4 or larger, we have a very difficult time rolling it since the max mass is so much larger, and we still can't fit caps through. Am I missing something crucial here?

I completely agree with this. My corp is planning a move to a c4/c4. With the new change coming, and a second static added, we have been forced to put our operations on hold until this change is rolled out.

Why you may ask? A c4/c4 turning into a c4 with a c4 and c5+ will be bad news bears for the majority of people living in a c4/c4.

You are going to **** a whole host of the few people living in a c4 off if this is something that happens.

-20% corp tax

Here is my tribute to last Frontier Barrack solo in T1 Raven. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK5XPJShggk

Why:

I need around 23mins to solo frontier barrack in that solo run salvage was 85mISK = 221mISK/h that -20% corp tax and shared with my scout I'll get 88.4mISK/h. If this happends income would drop to 59mISK/h.

C4 income is the reason to low activity no carebears to gank.

Then you add the two miningalts so you have to split 4ways. Then another 10% for your CEO-¦s golden POD and monocle fund.
It get-¦s even worse if you have to pay the POSfuel. That-¦s another 500M taken away from that one site you run, so it is like you are loosing 400M. So horrible for running some of the hardest content alone in a T1 ship.

SOE Lv4 in hisec give 100mISK/h you don't need share it with scouts or have towers to fuel and you can spam them as long you like.

Do you really think I have just run one barrack?

Hardest content? I plan to try C5 Garrison solo in sisi but I'm missing couple modules to make raven test fit. I almost quit eve cause of lag of pve challenge before I got in to wormholes. I know it can be done in Vargur already.

EDIT:

Also if you bold anything you should check this if they do this whole day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQ8pU0OBb0.

I probably shouldn't admit this but I'm more afraid of getting ganked in highsec than in a C4. I can't recall a single time I've been dunked on while running sites. Lots of times when rolling, subsequent shens, & fuel/loot runs. Esp the loot run part.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.

In highsec it's easy don't use officer mods and don't shoot other players.

Can we get a date on this happening and will the move request get us some love or will we have to do it the hard way?

Having read all the posts on this thread, I think the entire volume of player feedback can be grouped into three areas:

• I don't live in a C4 but this sounds great
• I used to live in a C4 but logistics was hard, so I moved out
• I live in a C4 now and this sounds harmful

What CCP is not doing is asking successful C4 residents why that type of system is suited to them.

Let me give my opinion from the perspective of a C4 resident who lives there because it is isolated: It is a good stepping-up point for a corporation who don't want to remain in highsec forever, but who also aren't prepared to rent in null or try to carve out some lowsec yet.

My perception of CCP's goals for these wormhole changes seems to be that they do indeed want to promote W-space PVP, make wormholes much less safe, and create an artificial reason for PVP gangs to switch from the T3-dominant meta to frigates so they can travel through new, special wandering WHs.

W-space PVP is dominated by T3 cruiser gangs and Ishtars because they are significantly over-powered in PVP. If you see anything else with them, it might be an interdictor or a command ship (links) in well-organized gangs; but their combat power never comes from anything except cruisers. That's not because wormholes are broken, it's because T3 cruisers are broken. Creating special new wormholes isn't addressing the root problem.

Players crying about the logistics difficulties of certain types of C4 wormhole systems (such as C4-C4) shouldn't live in those. Find something more suitable to you -- there is plenty of empty W-space out there. Also, C4-C4 might not be the best idea and many of them are empty; but that's only a fraction of all C4 systems.

Finally, all the I live in a C4 now and this sounds harmful folks are right -- it will be harmful to them. It will increase their traffic, and they are almost certainly in a C4 specifically to avoid that.

The ability to avoid spawning the other side of your K162 even if you warped to the grid of your static is not a benefit to those isolationists. Why? It works both ways. You will have less warning of someone entering your system. That, plus the addition of new wanderers that you effectively cannot close, and existing C4s gaining a new static (what if it's a kind I hate?) will create significant challenges for people or corps who live in a C4 specifically because they want an isolated base.


In short, the bulk of these changes will harm C4 residents and probably make them less popular than they are now, not more popular. CCP should be able to see this and adjust their plan

Players crying about the logistics difficulties of certain types of C4 wormhole systems (such as C4-C4) shouldn't live in those. Find something more suitable to you -- there is plenty of empty W-space out there. Also, C4-C4 might not be the best idea and many of them are empty; but that's only a fraction of all C4 systems.

C4 corps won't fight; they'll move. Creating a wonderfull gap in C4 space and lack of targets in these areas.

C4 payouts have to be hugely increased at this point to convince some corps to stay there, because they'll have to replace their T3's a lot more than before.

As a longtime low-class resident and CEO of one of the few groups in low-class, that spend the most of our time doing PvP I would like to talk about the upcoming changes to C4s and the other low-class systems.

The changes themselves are OK. BUT as many have already said it here: Where is the financial compensation for the increased risk?
It has already been mentioned here, that what you can currently earn in low-class by PvE - even compared to the High Sec - is a joke and I agree. Who will stay if it gets harsher? Only to call a little part of worthless space your own? Well thank you very much but no. If our targets are no longer able to compensate their losses, I can only advise them to go.

If the C4s will be the new battlegrounds in W-Space then it should be. But give the low-class residents the option to earn enough ISK to stay or to attract others to come in. Or how should we attract other players to join and bring ships that are worth a bil+ for pvp?

As I already said the changes make sense and are necessary, but only if they are simultaneously with the rebalance of the PvE content in the whole w-space. Otherwise 1500 dead systems will remain. The other are 1000 high class or PI WHs. PvE and PvP must always be changed together, otherwise only crap comes out.

What the FAQ is the problem with this? If you can't figure out how to farm your static, you should move out, right now, and let me move in without having to pick a C4 hole I want, and then waste a weekend expunging your flaccid corpses from it.

The problem is we picked our static when we moved in and we know how to farm it. We can easily farm our c3 and we can hold our own in pvp against most c3 corps. We did not pick a c4/c5 or c4/c6 because we cannot farm them and we cannot for the most part pvp against the groups that live in them. If we are given a second static of c5 or c6 that screws us over.

The incumbents rail against the changes because someone's going to hold a knife to their neck and shave their neckbeards. Everyone else (myself included) is salivating at the chance of C4-C4-C4 action. Gurl, it's going to be a bearded lady threesome. A menage a barba.

To all those Q.Q'ing with cheetos in your beards about the lack of ISK in the C4: what the crap? Aside from C5 and C6's where you can escalate each site three times before it despawns, for untold billions, every wormhole has a limit to ISK. The reason C4's have got popular (again) is that nowadays solo players, with 2-4 accounts, can control the statics, and solo in Marauders, and make decent money. I know a guy who dualboxes Paladins in his C4-C4, and rolls to a new C4 every day. he has double the income of living in a C4-C4 than he would living in a C2-Y683.

It is what it is though, so when changes hit you will have to see what your extra static is and either like it or leave it. there will be other C4's that you will like and can take over if your current C4 isn't to your likeing.

P.S i am in the same boat.

Yeah but the fact that they aren't even giving us any warning as to what type of new static we will have is ludicrous. If you are in the same boat then you know that logistics in a c4 is not the easiest thing in the world. Now that is a trade off that was made for being in a secluded WH. What that does mean is it could take some time to actually physically move and set up in a new location. Plus the time that it takes to talk to members and make those decisions ensure everyone is able to get their things out of the hole. This is no small task. This is something we should be able to start doing now if we are going to have to move. Not waiting till patch day to start.

You moved assets into and grew assets into a WH, a dangerous location and you sound like you almost want them to transport your stuff out safely for you.

Changes will go live on SISI before they go live in game as stated by Fozie, so jump on check them out and prepare accordingly. /Shrugs.

fore they go live in game as stated by Fozie, so jump on check them out and prepare accordingly. /Shrugs.

Your right I said please move all of our stuff out of WH for us. Oh wait no I simply asked for time to prepare and do it ourselves if we need to. First of all no one has said when these changes will go on SISI. Even if they went up tomorrow that is only a 2 week period. Also if my character is not in WH on SISI because I have moved it out what are the chances I will just randomly scan down our WH to check it out.

Trolls will troll can't even come on with a real character because all you are trying to do is harass other people. Probably don't even live in a WH.

You don't come around here often do you?

Your post merely backs up my other post earlier where i said you are another one that has never interacted with any of the discussions about C4's that have been had time and time again and now when changes are happening you carry on like you have had no warning at all. But because i disagree with you i am trolling you right? Sure......

No because you take what I am saying and try to say that I am saying things that I am not.

Because I have not been included in the conversation since the beginning my thoughts on the topic are invalid or just because they are different from your thoughts?

Regardless of how long the conversation has been going on the vast majority of people were not included in the process until the Dev Blogs were posted. I have not once complained about getting a second static my complaint is the way it is being rolled out with very little notice.

Also take your pick you can either state that I don't come here often or that I had plenty of warning but not both. As you stated I obviously don't come to the WH forums often and there I did not have any warning until the dev blog was posted. This does not make my opinions invalid as you seem to think.

So I've been thinking about it. . .

At first I was very turned off by the idea of another static in my wormhole, but the more I think about it the more I'm starting to warm up to the idea. That being said, it's not going to do anything to help players become more active in C4 space. Just from the law of averages, it might lead to more random accidental encounters just from the increased travel-through they're likely to see, but balance that against the increased need to turtle to survive and the likelihood that many smaller corps will be moving out, you get a lot of empty space.

CCP, if you want larger corps to move in, or you want the current C4 residents to do more pvp, then you need to give us a chance to replace what we lose. As it stands right now, it takes ages to replace even the bare minimum fleet for running the combat sites in there. Whether you're looking at 3 RR Domis, a lone Marauder, or a flock of tengu, the cost for replacing lost ships is too high for C4 corps to remain viable without turtling up.

Say your bare minimum Dominix team is somehow able to run the sites with 3 ships totalling 300m each after fittings. . .
In order to afford a replacement fleet, you'd need to run between 10 and 15 Barracks depending on salvage. Let's say it takes you two weeks to get that many spawned (in my experience, it takes longer). That's about 260 mil in fuel at current Jita prices for one stick. That adds 3 more sites onto the calculation.

Assuming you have NO other expenses, your break even is 13-18 of the best sites in the class before you can afford to lose one bare minimum fleet. Keep in mind, that fleet just barely squeaks by on those sites. The payout for the work just isn't there. People turtle up, not because they're afraid of dying, but because they can't afford to replace their ships on that kind of income.

TL/DR: If you want more activity in C4s, then you need to provide a living wage, yo. People stick to c3s and c5s, avoiding c4s not because of logistics, but because of income potential

It will become more active as PVP corps will want these WHs.... Its basically their gateway to heaven!



LOL! The points are correct but your conclusion is... the opposite of what you were saying... 1 + 1 equals 11 then?

1. You can run C4 sites in a W-R in Assault Frigates. There are other cheap fits you can use for other variable types...
2. You will now have a second static to farm from. ;)

So in fact you should find things are better after Hyperion. But yes I agree with this and other posts that the isk reward in c4's needs to be better as they are only slightly better than c3's and a LONG way from c5's. Although from what I saw earlier Fozzie has hinted they will fix that soon. :)

So in conclusion... Awesome Change! Keep up the great work Fozzie!

I have said it before, will say it again.
Null sec cartels can't control wh income ingame, so they get the dev's to wreck it.
You think this is bad? Wait until you see the nerfs to T3 ships, wiping out the market for them, killing wh income even further.

+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.

It will become more active as PVP corps will want these WHs.... Its basically their gateway to heaven!



LOL! The points are correct but your conclusion is... the opposite of what you were saying... 1 + 1 equals 11 then?

1. You can run C4 sites in a W-R in Assault Frigates. There are other cheap fits you can use for other variable types...
2. You will now have a second static to farm from. ;)

So in fact you should find things are better after Hyperion. But yes I agree with this and other posts that the isk reward in c4's needs to be better as they are only slightly better than c3's and a LONG way from c5's. Although from what I saw earlier Fozzie has hinted they will fix that soon. :)

So in conclusion... Awesome Change! Keep up the great work Fozzie!

+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.

In fact it would do the opposite. C2's currently hold that niche, the change would make C4s and C2s the same. In fact one could argue that what C4s currently have is niche.

Considering c2's are the best type of system to live in for small gang fights, getting more of these type of systems sounds pretty good to me.

So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets, the more people who leave wormhole the less people there are to shoot at. So if all you care about is getting kills for yourself at least don't be so short sighted as to think that kicking all current C4 holders out is a good thing.