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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Garai Nolen
Xyjax
16
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:09:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:CCP has NO idea where the line is.. They just make it up as the drama heats up.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
CCP made business decisions that were clearly favorable to their bottom line for a long time. Then a community backlash arose (for understandable reasons) and, like any company, they are being forced to balance those business decisions against the potential business impact of community outrage.
CCP has no idea where the line is because there IS NO meaningful line and, further, there doesn't need to be. The line is wherever it needs to be, today, to make sure EVE keeps running and CCP stays afloat. For 3 years nobody cared about Somer RMT because 1) the community didn't seem to care much and 2) the specific form of their RMT did not cause any of the traditional issues that RMT can produce in a game. Ergo it makes total business sense that CCP turned a blind eye for as long as that scenario continued. And for GOOD REASONS.
Then a community backlash occurred and CCP responded, as any company must, in order to placate their customer base. This happens all the time in business and is in no way surprising.
Again, it's important to remember that RMT is banned not because it is inherently evil but because of the damage it frequently causes to the game and community (hacked accounts, botting, etc.) You simply cannot say "Somer was doing RMT therefore they are evil" and "CCP ignored Somer doing RMT therefore they are evil (and clueless and stupid and unable to establish a firm boundary)" because RMT ITSELF is not now and never has been the actual problem they are trying to address with an anti-RMT stance in the EULA.
EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/ |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1225
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:10:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Andski wrote:Man you've really been showcasing mod abilities in this thread: endless quotes per post, images, oh boy It's almost as if there is real forum software buried under here. They just haven't unchecked the [Sucks] box in the config section for us regular users. edit: the IRONY /and divine confirmation.
The images are linked from external sites, i hope they never enable that feature for monkey class users, but i guess it would be fun to datamine ip/browser info and try and match it to users to detects alts and other fun stuff. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Suzie Swindle
Code Enforcement and Compliance Agency
6
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:11:00 -
[1053] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Suzie Swindle wrote:
Does CCP need to do some internal work to make sure someone doesn't try to pull this type of crap again... yes... but thats internal and they will most likely be doing this now (or I hope so),
You would of though after what happened last time they would have but apparently they haven't.. big surprise...
Going to the vp of sales is abit different then going through a gm, and when someone put up a proposal that says "I wont give any extra isk", well you kind of have to wait for them to actually do this... you cant (or atleast almost none of us can) see what will happen when someone does a 180 on that until they actually...
I thought it was clear after last year with the NO offering incentives to get people to click your link so you can get a kickback... |
De'Veldrin
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2906
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:14:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Suzie Swindle wrote:I am surprised at how many dont seem to understand the difference between CCP letting groups pay people in isk for content to place on their site while making real life money from adds, and that of how somers was using its affiliate status to perform a kickback type deal....
I am willing to bet that a substantial number of these people are not ignorant at all. I'm curious to know what they're actual motivations are, however.
De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null. |
Annie Getyourgun
Snow Leopard Situs
25
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:15:00 -
[1055] - Quote
While there are eyes on the thread, is there any reason that since ETC is dead, long live PLEX happened, we cannot have referral links point directly to the EVE Online Account Management website (similar to how Buddy account referral links work)?
The list of 3rd Party Retailers still has this bit about ETC's
Many of our players subscribe to EVE directly; however, some prefer to pay for their game time using other methods, such as EVE Time Codes. This page lists the websites and services that offer EVE Starter Packs and EVE Time Codes (ETCs). Remember you can also trade ETC with other players or buy PLEX.
but it seems that any of the sites listed has their ETC as 'out of stock' if they continue to list them at all.
What is the limitation preventing this from happening, as a change such as this would surely help to separate some of the grey area back into black and white? |
Prince Kobol
2069
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:15:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Suzie Swindle wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Suzie Swindle wrote:
Does CCP need to do some internal work to make sure someone doesn't try to pull this type of crap again... yes... but thats internal and they will most likely be doing this now (or I hope so),
You would of though after what happened last time they would have but apparently they haven't.. big surprise... Going to the vp of sales is abit different then going through a gm, and when someone put up a proposal that says "I wont give any extra isk", well you kind of have to wait for them to actually do this... you cant (or atleast almost none of us can) see what will happen when someone does a 180 on that...
What I mean is that yet again lack of communication is the root cause to all this drama.
Even Falcon alluded to it before that
"Basically, a breakdown in communication with people not knowing who to contact during the transition of the Community Team's leadership to me, and a few other factors"
It is the same sorry story with CCP and it is getting pretty tiring.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11036
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:27:00 -
[1057] - Quote
dexington wrote:The images are linked from external sites, i hope they never enable that feature for monkey class users, but i guess it would be fun to datamine ip/browser info and try and match it to users to detects alts and other fun stuff.
If that's the primary concern they can simply require images posted on the forums to be hosted on imgur, tinypic, eve-files etc. Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar |
Garai Nolen
Xyjax
16
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:28:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:What I mean is that yet again lack of communication is the root cause to all this drama.
Welcome to business reality?
Here's a not-secret; the source of 99% of business drama/issues/problems/failures is a LACK OF COMMUNICATION. Reasonable people (which is all a business is; a lot of individual, reasonable people) when in possession of ALL the facts tend to come to pretty similar, sane, and reasonable conclusions. Ergo, the most likely reason poor decisions happen is because some of the people involved do NOT possess all of the information. The most likely culprit for that? Poor communication.
As a result, every business failure you ever analyse is going to have, at its root, "lack of communication" as a major contributing factor, if not THE primary factor, for that failure to occur.
This will never change, and it will never be fixed. CCP, like every other business on planet Earth, will continue to struggle with internal communication and will occasionally screw up as a result of missing something in this process.
It is in no way indicative of a fault specific to CCP nor does it imply they are somehow a below-average company. In fact, it makes them pretty ordinary and typical. EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/ |
Prince Kobol
2069
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:31:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Garai Nolen wrote:
will continue to struggle with internal communication and will occasionally screw up as a result of missing something in this process.
You need to replace occasionally with constantly |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1226
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:34:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Andski wrote:dexington wrote:The images are linked from external sites, i hope they never enable that feature for monkey class users, but i guess it would be fun to datamine ip/browser info and try and match it to users to detects alts and other fun stuff. If that's the primary concern they can simply require images posted on the forums to be hosted on imgur, tinypic, eve-files etc.
CCP being CCP i guess the primary concern would be the inappropriate visual content, that needs to be removed manually and the work involved in doing so. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
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Edward Harris
Lazerhawks
32
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:41:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Hendrick Tallardar wrote: Welcome to any company in the world that provides a service. They can change their policies at anytime goons want and for any reason, your EULA/TOS agreement affirms you understand that. The assumption that CCP just decided that goons being mad at Somer was enough to change policy overnight is pretty juvenile in understanding business operations. Goons aren't the best at running a company, but they're doing this by the seat of their pants.
fixed. |
Anslo
Scope Works
7463
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:45:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Garai Nolen wrote:
will continue to struggle with internal communication and will occasionally screw up as a result of missing something in this process.
You need to replace occasionally with constantly He's right though. Even at the Federal level we have these kinds of communication issues with subjects far more serious and with dire repercussions should they not be addressed. And we have a metric **** ton of procedures made to prevent communication errors. But they still happen.
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Hendrick Tallardar
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
186
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:46:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Edward Harris wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote: Welcome to any company in the world that provides a service. They can change their policies at anytime goons want and for any reason, your EULA/TOS agreement affirms you understand that. The assumption that CCP just decided that goons being mad at Somer was enough to change policy overnight is pretty juvenile in understanding business operations. Goons aren't the best at running a company, but they're doing this by the seat of their pants.
fixed.
You sound incredibly butthurt over Goons. How many space pixels did they blow up that belonged to you? LeeSsang. Never Forget. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11039
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:46:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Goonspiracy Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar |
Dilligafmofo
Sandman Plc
290
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:49:00 -
[1065] - Quote
I have been unable to speak to a goon for months. I can't stand the smell of CCP shite on their breaths |
Prince Kobol
2069
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:05:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Garai Nolen wrote:
will continue to struggle with internal communication and will occasionally screw up as a result of missing something in this process.
You need to replace occasionally with constantly He's right though. Even at the Federal level we have these kinds of communication issues with subjects far more serious and with dire repercussions should they not be addressed. And we have a metric **** ton of procedures made to prevent communication errors. But they still happen.
I am not arguing that its not a common problem, but that doesn't I have to accept it.
Every time something like this happens its "we need to be better at communication" and nothing happens.
When ever CCP want to introduce a new mechanic and we as p[players tell them that its really stupid and will be exploited they don't listen and what happens, it gets exploited.
How many times are CCP going to do something like this, give the excuse that it was down to poor communication and then nothing changes. |
Anslo
Scope Works
7481
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:09:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Honestly, this seems less communication and more contract language related. I bet their legal team missed something in the terms of the agreement between CCP and SOMER and SOMER silently exploited the loop hole.
CCP's communication issues are actually better as evidenced by Falcon being on top of update provisions for the community. After business agreements like with CCP and SOMER, there isn't some constant checking up on communication that's normally done. The contract technically does the communicating, if that makes sense.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:12:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Edward Harris wrote:Hendrick Tallardar wrote: Welcome to any company in the world that provides a service. They can change their policies at anytime goons want and for any reason, your EULA/TOS agreement affirms you understand that. The assumption that CCP just decided that goons being mad at Somer was enough to change policy overnight is pretty juvenile in understanding business operations. Goons aren't the best at running a company, but they're doing this by the seat of their pants.
fixed.
If we were running the company, I promise, nullsec would be a lot less stagnant, and a lot more accessible. |
Prince Kobol
2070
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:16:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Honestly, this seems less communication and more contract language related. I bet their legal team missed something in the terms of the agreement between CCP and SOMER and SOMER silently exploited the loop hole.
CCP's communication issues are actually better as evidenced by Falcon being on top of update provisions for the community. After business agreements like with CCP and SOMER, there isn't some constant checking up on communication that's normally done. The contract technically does the communicating, if that makes sense.
Look, I know you are trying to defend CCP, but even Falcon said himself this was down to a communication problem. Apparently who ever was not able to find out who was on the Community Team, I guess people don't like talking to each other in Iceland
Also Falcon said himself he only found out because the CSM alerted CCP to the problem.
No matter which way you swing it, this was a mess which should of never of happened but CCP being CCP I am willing bet anything that in another few months we will be talking about CCP's lack of communication after another screw up |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3400
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:34:00 -
[1070] - Quote
I am curious what percentage of plex sales went through the Somer-Blink website, and what kind of impact this will have on sales of plexes.
I imagine the goon Pravda site will pick up some slack, but Markee Dragon (or however you spell his name), must be scrambling today. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11237
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:35:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Derrick Miles wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"This medic has saved hundreds of lives. We should definitely overlook the fact that he beats his wife." Jonah Gravenstein wrote:He's getting hammered because he attempted to circumvent the rules regarding the monetisation of CCPs intellectual property.
His charitable donations do not excuse that, just as they didn't excuse Bernie Madhoff when he got clobbered for running a huge Ponzi and ripping people off for their pensions. While RMT is bad, I'm not sure it rates on the scale of wife-beating and stealing pensions. Nobody suggested anything about scale. It's just an analogy. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5845
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:45:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I am curious what percentage of plex sales went through the Somer-Blink website, and what kind of impact this will have on sales of plexes.
I imagine the goon Pravda site will pick up some slack, but Markee Dragon (or however you spell his name), must be scrambling today.
Markee has his fingers in a lot of pies. I doubt he's scrambling over losing an affiliate that likely gave him much less than 1% of his total sales.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
711
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:57:00 -
[1073] - Quote
dexington wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Andski wrote:Man you've really been showcasing mod abilities in this thread: endless quotes per post, images, oh boy It's almost as if there is real forum software buried under here. They just haven't unchecked the [Sucks] box in the config section for us regular users. edit: the IRONY /and divine confirmation. The images are linked from external sites, i hope they never enable that feature for monkey class users, but i guess it would be fun to datamine ip/browser info and try and match it to users to detects alts and other fun stuff. you're half a decade too late on that idea heh |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15741
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:12:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Andski wrote:Here's a rough timeline of events:
- Somerset Mahm proposes a PLEX referral incentive model to CCP for approval. It is approved and he later implements a referral incentive, creating a buyback program for PLEX purchased through his referral link at above market prices.
- Somebody discovered that SOMERblink has created a new incentive to buy PLEX via their referral link. This was posted to Reddit, discussed there and it made its way to the forums.
- The discussions about this catch the attention of the CSM, and it makes its way to the desk of CCP Falcon, CCP's community coordinator, who mentions that he was surprised by this and unaware.
- SOMERblink is asked to put this promotion on hold for the meantime. They do so, and publish private correspondence with CCP's VP of Sales, along with the document they presented to her proposing their new incentive model.
- Players who read this document realize that the proposal was undoubtedly written with the intention of deceiving the reader into believing that there would be the incentive was not based on ISK or assets.
- CCP's conclusion is that the incentive implemented by SOMER was not what they approved. In response, SOMERblink shuts down indefinitely and refunds outstanding deposits.
So who acted in bad faith? CCP, by approving an ambiguously worded proposal and then deciding that what was implemented was not what they approved, or Somer, by writing an ambiguously worded proposal, deceiving CCP and essentially implementing a similar referral incentive to what CCP previously made him discontinue?
there are missing points of data on this timeline.. I'd like to know when each significant component of the Markee Dragon <-> ETC <-> SOMER kickback scheme appeared.
that affiliate is exclusive to Somer's ETC buy price deal, a I'm exploring the possibility that it occurred along the way (rather than being a diabolical plan all along.)
Things like: when were the referral kickback terms hammered out between Somer and MD/ Marcus Ikenffeffer
when did Somer begin buying ETCs from players at the 'best price in New Eden' deal price
and the big question: when did SOMER make the referrals from MD mandatory on his end / and announce that he would refuse ETCs acquired elsewhere.
I'm working on the assumption that the plan SOMER gave to CCP was his honest plan. perhaps something changed along the way, for database reasons / convenience / undercutters who might dump their stock onto SOMER for personal gain / whatever... what I'm trying to pointpoint (if there is one), is an event(s) or decision(s) that altered the original un-biased scope of SOMER's ETC purchase offer (from everyone to only those purchased from MD).
justifiably or not.
if it turns out the MD <-> ETC <-> SOMER thing was always the plan, there are still possible, practical, understandable reasons why the source of the ETC needed verification. It's possible the arrangement with MD wasn't merely a good o'l boy agreement--it could be a more significant business pact between MD and SOMER, all due to SOMER's altruistic ETC purchase deal.
if SOMER declares himself an instant 110% ETC dumping point, it would look very appealing to ETC resellers who received their stock at wholesale prices... to use alts and redeem their ETC to SOMER, effectively netting a double profit with no middle-man (a player) ...albeit in ISK. 12xPLEX worth of ISK, after turning in a 10 pack of PLEX (5xETC) which were purchased from CCP for a reduced rate, perhaps 70% value
the ETC reseller can potentially take their wholesale stack of 5 ETC (purchased at a reduced price because authorized reselller, trade with good guy SOMER, and end up with 12 PLEXs' value in ISK... as often as he refilled his stack of ETC from CCP.
with this pact between SOMER and MD, MD could keep his prices high, knowing that SOMER customers have no choice but to pay it, because he is the only ETC re-seller endorsed by SOMER, and SOMER's plan to entice players to buy PLEX with ISK -works-. other ETC re-sellers can do whatever they want with their prices to out-compete each other, but doing so affects only their bottom line, not MD.
Think about it. ETC sellers have a stock from CCP and as wholesalers they received a discounted price on that ETC stock, because affiliate. If SOMER's offer was open to ALL ETC holders regardless of source, any ETC re-seller could take their ETC (which they purchased at below market price, to resell and profit), and sell it to SOMER for a margin over what they stood to make by selling it to a player.
When MD's prices are able to maintain healthy profitable resale prices due to his pact with SOMER, that leaves a healthy profit from his ETC sales. when the benefit is mutual (MD agrees to not redeem his own ETC to SOMER for the deal), and MD is grateful to SOMER for effectinvely 'niche'ing his store, perhaps a kickback is in order, as a matter of 'hey thanks for keeping my family fed and my bills paid, I wish I could do something for you, but I'm afraid of awakening the pitchfork regiment--what can I do to repay you for the market stability you provide me?
ISK? ETC? PLEX? something to balance the books in this arragnement .. what do you think? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15741
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:25:00 -
[1075] - Quote
broken post. redoing. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Cherry Yeyo
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:26:00 -
[1076] - Quote
I think if CCP stood up and said: "Yo, its gonna cost some PLEX sales but Markee Dragon and Somer have caused us nothing but problems and slippery slopes for years now so we're gonna end that relationship" all the community would cheer. CCP Rise>Sentry drones have enormous downsides |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3687
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:26:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Becoming a Markee Dragon affiliate isn't a hard thing. There were likely further negotiations, because of volume. http://store.markeedragon.com/affiliate/signupform.php
As for the rest:
Why would an Plex code seller (no ETCs any more) want to convert plex to ISK? That's spending real money, and getting virtual money which they can't use to buy more plex codes? This isn't one or two plex. This is hundreds.
They don't sell plex. They sell codes which can become plex. Plex are useless to them.
Also, the moment that you would allow someone to cycle plex to isk, at a higher than market rate, without any other limitation, you open yourself up to someone buying plex with isk, selling to you for more isk, buying plex with some of that isk, then repeating. So it was always going to be tied to a reseller.
Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3687
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:28:00 -
[1078] - Quote
bah. double. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
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CCP Falcon
8242
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:30:00 -
[1079] - Quote
A response by CCP has been posted here.
Please use that thread for further discussion, this one will be locked now.
Cheers,
- F CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3 |
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