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I've never played a game that cators to grief play as much as this one

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Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:55:00 - [61] Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 03:01:04 Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 02:58:46 Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Rekindle The truth is I've played far too many MMORPG games and anyone who clearly has experience should look at the issue of gate campers in NPC patrolled space with some suspicion and question it. I havent yet disagreed with the notion that it IS a game mechanic-- perhaps it was stupid of me to attempt to work the way I did within that mechanic. that does not, however, take away from my orignal notion that the mechanic is stupid and its broken. No matter how often you narrow minded types flame me, call me a stupid noob idiot who knew better, I will maintain my belief (which I'll add attacks no one, trolls no one) that the mechanic , as it is, is designed to support grief play and we wouldnt be having this conversation it if wasnt condusive to such. There's your problem. You're comparing EVE with your knowledge of other MMORPGs. But that is something that you can't do because EVE is nothing like other MMORPGs. The mechanics are designed so that it is easy to lose stuff and that's why it's called pirating and not griefing in EVE. Having stuff lost so easily is what keeps the EVE economy running. Games with no loss all have really bad economies (which are usually also controlled by chinese currency sellers.) As I said in an earlier post, removing the ability to sucide gank will ruin the EVE economy due to both less stuff needing to be replaced and invincible macrominers. It would also remove all of the skill and strategy needed to move expensive stuff around; you might as well just let people teleport all their stuff between stations in high sec... So you need to choose: Do you want to play a game controlled by chinese macroers where RMTers are better than the real players? Or do you want to play a game with a strong economy where everyone has an equal chance as long as they use some intelligence? That is such terribly flawed logic I don't know where to begin. Are you actually suggestioning that gold farmers will take over the eve economy and mudflation will run rampant if gate gankers are not allowed to continue sitting at gates like Jita and other places? We have players running 15 macro miners at once for weeks on end and you think that allowing me to fly through empire space with the expectation that guards will act as designed designed is going to turn EvE into WoW. This is why I can't take half the flames some of you people dish out seriously. Have you actually listened to yourselves? Some these were the types of arguments taht were put to bed 10 years ago. My god. Ps. your comment about the racial origns of gold farmers is pretty narrow minded don't ya think? Most Gold farmers are actually not from Asia. -------------------------------------------
Ravelin Eb Minmatar Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:08:00 - [62] If you were moving valuable BPO's and the like. then you really should wait for just before or just after downtime and travel in a small ship with stabs/mwd etc. after two years you should know what kinda precuations to take to prevent things like that happening.
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:11:00 - [63] I believe the ability to loose everything you own in a matter of seconds is a big plus and one of the reasons I still play this game. Click above for my killboard stats.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:53:00 - [64] Originally by: Rekindle That is such terribly flawed logic I don't know where to begin. Are you actually suggestioning that gold farmers will take over the eve economy and mudflation will run rampant if gate gankers are not allowed to continue sitting at gates like Jita and other places? We have players running 15 macro miners at once for weeks on end and you think that allowing me to fly through empire space with the expectation that guards will act as designed is going to turn EvE into WoW. See, that is why you're a troll. You insulted me and gave no facts against my claims. First of all, the guards already act as designed. Read the player guide as five people in this thread already told you to. They are just like the real life police. They can't always stop a crime, but they will punish the criminal. You must defend yourself until they arrive and in 0.5 it takes them awhile. It's not hard to do and will be even easier after the next patch gives you 50% more shield/armor and allows you to warp straight into jumping/docking range. Secondly, if my logic is so flawed, than explain to me why EVE's economy is better than any other MMORPG's economy and why our economy isn't controlled by RMT'ers like most of the other games? What's the main difference between EVE and those other games? The fact that we can kill anyone we want to and make them actually lose stuff! Without this ability, macrominers and RMT'ers will take over the game. They have done it to every other game and I see nothing else that will stop them here. CCP won't ban them all just like none of the other game companies do. Sure we already have alot of macrominers, but we have people who get enjoyment from repeatedly suicide ganking them all day. Without the sucide ganking, not only would the current macrominers be making alot more money, but we'd have many many more people running macrominers. I would predict that within one year of removing suicide ganking, there will be at least one group of macrominers in every system in high sec. The market would become flooded with minerals and prices will drop. People would than build T1 ships just to self destruct them and get the insurance as it would be profitable for them. Doing so will add tons of ISK into the economy and cause the prices of T2 ships to raise so high that only RMT'ers could afford them. If that sounds unbelievable to you, than you havn't played as many MMORPGs as you claim. So how about you try and respond with facts this time instead of flaming again? _______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:01:00 - [65] The way I see it, they did you a favor.... Imagine all the fun you had in the last two years aquireing your little bits. They didn't take that, the fun away. Now you can have more fun getting new stuff..... Trading 101
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:10:00 - [66] Oh we could go on. Like I could say there are legimate gold sinks all over the eve universe- insurance, tax, clone costs, ships lost to legimate pvp and pve encounters but then you would come up with some other reason why you feel its a legit tactic for some group of gankers to sit a empire gate taking concord hits so they can score a bit of loot.....How exactly to the looters sink their the stuff they steal? Its too bad this community can't talk about something legitimately without it turning into personal attacks. Its a tactic that results from something that was not designed - it has to do with the fact the time lapse between then the guards are triggered and when they arrive is greater than the time it takes for a t1 iteron to blow up. Some of you suggest that the solution is to not fly an iteron in high sec space - well if you want to cure a head ache by cutting of the head I guess that works too. See, there is dieing to a legit pvp encounter and there is dieing to cheap ass tactics. Tonight I encountered the latter and I put it in the same cateogory as logging out in combat, BM copying, and other less than prestigious "techniques" this game offers to augment pvp encounters. I'll step out of this thread and agree to disagree with you all. I'm obviously in the minority here which is fine, I guess. -------------------------------------------
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:14:00 - [67] What the holy hell? I've only played EVE for less then a year total (took a 6 month break) and the moment I saw "Iteron V" and "all my stuff" it was not only obvious what had happened but patently obvious that it was always going to happen. You were wearing all your bling through Harlem, it was totally worth clonking you on the head and taking all your stuff. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:14:00 - [68] Originally by: Kaaii The way I see it, they did you a favor.... Imagine all the fun you had in the last two years aquireing your little bits. They didn't take that, the fun away. Now you can have more fun getting new stuff..... a most optimistic view point on things Kaaii....I appreciate that at this point actually. I can't help but equate the stuff lost to the amount of freakin time I spent acquiring it- its not really the stuff as much as it is time wasted to some ass clown that bothers me so much. I think one of the solutions is i need to stop playing games that caters to griefers under the ruse of legitimate pvp. Thanks for the uplift though :) -------------------------------------------
Lunarmist	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:18:00 - [69] Well, this game is a mmog. Collectivly have more players with anti social behavior than any other online games on the market. This however is the selling point of this game. From what I understand, ccp want their game to be like this from start. Thus, if people who cannot handle it or don't like such player base, they should find another game to play. This is the exact reason I give a warning to everybody I know who wants to try this game. Pretty much all of them left game within 4 months. Why? Because they didn't like the game atmosphere. I think OP should've learned something during the 2 years+ experience in this game. Suicide bombing at gate is so common nowdays, you really should consider it before moving all your stuff in a t1 cargo ship. It is asking for trouble I tell ya. But, OP is right, this game is indeed have more jerks and griefers than another games.
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:20:00 - [70] Sorry about your loss, man. Suicide ganking is lame, and I personally believe that we shouldn't have to worry about that stuff. But it's probably not going to go away. There are a few ways to stick it to the suicide gankers: When hauling important BPOs and BPCs, use a heavily tanked BS/BC Just say YES to shrink wrap Use a freighter, or a T2 industrial with a decent tank Don't sell your goods in Jita A note about shrink wrap - in order for shrink wrap to be any good, you need to fake out the suicide gankers a couple times first. As it is now, they will probably presume that if you bothered to shrink wrap it, it must be good. But after they lose their ships for a load of shrinkwrapped Veldspar a couple times.... muwahahahahaha

Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:39:00 - [71] Edited by: Brechan Skene on 07/11/2006 04:39:58
Kitchie	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:51:00 - [72] Hi Rekindle, I'm a full time hauler and I do feel for you though I have to admit, my sympathy is limited. I've only been playing for a few months but in my early days, I also got ganked and lost my Iteron IV. The gank was purely for my Local Hull Expanded Cargo (x4) but at least all but one of them was destroyed so I felt better about that. Anyway, I decided a transport ship was a must after that and now fly an Occator but even with that, when I'm carrying 750 mill - 1.5 bill worth of stuff, I'm as nervous as a musical cat about to be orchestrated! I almost only ever fly through high sec, secure space, but to be honest, if wasn't for the risk, even if only slight, a) I would never have bothered with t2 transports and b) I would never even bother looking at my screen during hauls. Could you imagine how crowded the gates would get in Jita if everyone could safely AFK haul all their valuables there? There'd be hundreds of haulers just floating there waiting for their lazy pilots to come back to their PCs! My biggest criticism of suicide ganking is that there is no comeback. You can have a friend escorting you but he can do nothing about the ganker's hauler picking up your stuff or he'll be Concorded as well. No pod kill so no kill rights, just a 15 min aggression countdown on the ganker that he will avoid. It is lame to the extent that there is no skill involved and almost no penalty for it but I guess it some people's idea of fun..... a bit like 150km gate sniping.... But we just learn to live with it.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:44:00 - [73] Originally by: Rekindle Oh we could go on. Like I could say there are legimate gold sinks all over the eve universe- insurance, tax, clone costs, ships lost to legimate pvp and pve encounters but then you would come up with some other reason why you feel its a legit tactic for some group of gankers to sit a empire gate taking concord hits so they can score a bit of loot.....How exactly to the looters sink their the stuff they steal? Taxes and clones are so cheap that they're almost irrelavant. Every other game also has some minor currency sinks but it hasn't helped them against the RMT'ers. Insurance isn't a sink; it adds more money into the economy than it removes. And losing ships in PvE? Is that a joke? The fact is that suicide ganking is a part of legitimate PvP as this is a game designed around non-consensual PvP and without non-consensual PvP, there would be nothing that seperates EVE from other games and the RMT'ers would take over! Originally by: Rekindle Its too bad this community can't talk about something legitimately without it turning into personal attacks. I agree. It's a shame that you keep posting flames and insulting the EVE community when we try to give you advice. Originally by: Rekindle Its a tactic that results from something that was not designed - it has to do with the fact the time lapse between then the guards are triggered and when they arrive is greater than the time it takes for a t1 iteron to blow up. For the love of god. Now you're really trolling. The time lapse IS by design. That is why it increases as you move from 1.0 to 0.5 space. That is why the player guide on this very website warns you that the police won't always protect you, they just kill the criminal. Originally by: Rekindle Some of you suggest that the solution is to not fly an iteron in high sec space - well if you want to cure a head ache by cutting of the head I guess that works too. More trolling... That's like complaining that you can't bring a Vexor to a 200km fleet battle... Each ship has a specific purpose! A T1 Indy is weak but has a large cargo so it's purpose is to carry cheap stuff. A T2 Indy has less cargo but a really strong tank so it's purpose is to carry expensive stuff. Originally by: Rekindle See, there is dieing to a legit pvp encounter and there is dieing to cheap ass tactics. Tonight I encountered the latter and I put it in the same cateogory as logging out in combat, BM copying, and other less than prestigious "techniques" this game offers to augment pvp encounters. I'll step out of this thread and agree to disagree with you all. I'm obviously in the minority here which is fine, I guess. If you complain about people logging out or using BMs to cause lag, than you will be in the majority, but suicide ganking is by design. For the record, I (and most of the other posters here) have never suicide ganked anyone nor have we ever been killed by any, *but we like the fact that someone may attempt to kill us at any time!* I don't know why I waste so much time responding to people who are clearly trolling... they just ignore everything I write anyway... _______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
Unknown Subject Sound of Silence	Posted - 2006.11.07 06:08:00 - [74] after 2 years of gameplay you should have known what people are like. you should have known not to transport high value BPOs in anything other than a ceptor or covert ops even thru high sec, you should know not to put all your eggs into one basket, especially if those lovely yellow dots show up on your route, and finally if you accept this method of gameplay, you should know not to come whining on the forum and then wonder why people flame you. you deserved it.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.11.07 06:23:00 - [75] As you've undoubtably discovered by now, this game is unforgiving to cardinal human error of the sort you've comitted, if you've infact gone down as described. Indeed, what better way to learn than upon a costly error in judgement.
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:05:00 - [76] Originally by: Dee Ellis I guess you walk in downtown Chicago on Friday nights, alone, in a dress, right? Wearing diamonds. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Rekindle Originally by: Cipher7 I accepted a long time ago that Eve is Juvi Grieferville. 2 years and you didn't know? Yeah and its reflected quite well on the boards for the most part too. You come on, express an opinion on something and instead of people trying to maturely discuss the topic they insult you instead. There's nothing left for me here. There's nothing to discuss really. it sucks to be you, yes it's allowed, yes it's your own fault. and yes this is topic 4000 on this matter and people never ever learn. WANNA WHINE??? VISIT ME
Shagrath Xarra	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:16:00 - [78] This thread is really none of my business but I stumbled across it reading these boards because I am currently a bit bored and sometimes I just read these boards to gather information since I am still fairly new in the game. I have to say the OP is a very irritating and whinny person. He is also not very smart. He loses all of his stuff because he didn't handle the situation like he was suppose to. Not to mention he has two years into the game so lack of knowledge is not an excuse. He comes to this board and cries about a "game mechanic" which he continues to label an exploit and the persons using it as "griefers." However, instead of acknowledging that he did in fact screw up even after numerous people gave him unlimited suggestions to what he could have done differently, he ignores that and just keeps rambling on about how everyone is flaming him because "they don't want to talk about the topic" in the manner in which he does. Here is the real deal Mr. Rekindle: Nobody cares that you consider this griefing and that it seems unfair to you. The bottom line is it should have never happened in the first place if you did what you were suppose to do to prevent it. Arguing that it is "lame" and doesn't belong in the game will get you nowhere here. I am only 2 months old in this game and I apparently know more about it than you do. "You should have known better" is the only thing relevant to discuss here whether you agree or not.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:17:00 - [79] Heh, it isnt even griefers perse, this game heavily caters to skilless pvper's and literally encourages them to fight noobs and avoid competitive figths. Most anyone who enjoys good pvp left eve long time ago or plays eve to get off thier pve rocks, or just doesnt know what to do so they stay in eve. Eve pvp isone of the worst iterations of pvp i seen in a long time, hence why EVE population stays low, for what is over all a very good game.
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:39:00 - [80] Originally by: Rekindle Read people , read. I perfectly understand this is accepted game play...thats my point. The fact that non combat characters can't move their crap through safe space is grief at its very core. NO SPACE IS SAFE....0.5 aint that safe anyway bordering many many 0.4 sectors T1 hauler???? Dude you've been playing 2 years ive been playing a month and even ive learnt that if i wanna haul all my assorted junk through space its better to do it the long way and take a while and stick to 0.7 and above.... ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~

Bonny Cloud	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:47:00 - [81] With Kali and warp to 0 everybody who is losing money cause of suicide ganks in Empire should leave this game immediatly. In your case: you still would be rich if you had been a little bit more careful. Im sorry for you but it probably will never again happen to you .
Azrael Maxim Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:48:00 - [82] You have 2 clear choices. 1.Quit. 2.Get over it, and continue to have fun in eve.
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:02:00 - [83] Quote: once again I would question whos trolling who here. I come on here to express an opinion on a mechanic taht is obviously broken NO IT ISNTand the usual suspects of eve forum posters take the opportunity to pounce on me like im some stupid noob whos never played an MMORPG game.Yes someone who cant read the players guide I have modified the above quote....Read the players guide....and stop moaning! ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~
Tudor Minmatar Revolt	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:09:00 - [84] who cares, your loos is nothing compaired to others, its just isk and isk can be gathered again.. stop whining get ower it, and go kill some gatecampers.. to ccp... there should be ways to intercept the high sec killers.. they shouldent be able to go anywhere safe.. i sugest that those criminal flagged bastids can be seen in the ower view so that we can warp to em at all time.
Electric Cucumber Amarr Extinction Level Event	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:14:00 - [85] It's all your fault
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:17:00 - [86] Originally by: Tudor who cares, your loos is nothing compaired to others, its just isk and isk can be gathered again.. stop whining get ower it, and go kill some gatecampers.. to ccp... there should be ways to intercept the high sec killers.. they shouldent be able to go anywhere safe.. i sugest that those criminal flagged bastids can be seen in the ower view so that we can warp to em at all time. I do agree that police should be a little more hard hitting in hi-sec ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:22:00 - [87] Originally by: Rekindle Read people , read. I perfectly understand this is accepted game play...thats my point. The fact that non combat characters can't move their crap through safe space is grief at its very core. I think you are confusing grief and griefing. greif = something that causes great unhappiness (etc) griefing = deliberately doing something to discomfort another player. Its the intention behind the action that makes griefing, griefing. That is why it is so hard to pin down. The intention of the high sec pirates there was to steal your stuff and profit from it. The grief caused is an after effect. Did they know you? Did they know that you had everything you "owned in your hauler? I doubt it. The game supports trying to claw your way up to the top with any means necessary. This ultimately will lead to conflict with others but does not mean that people are griefers or that this is greifing. _______
thetwilitehour Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:24:00 - [88] Originally by: Rekindle I was not at war with them, I wasn't afk, I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything (and I mean everything) I own in the form of Bpos/Bpcs/ [Emphasis added] Why were you carrying bpos and bpcs in a t1 hauler? Personally I like that there is no such thing as "safe" space in Eve. There is always a relative degree of risk, which allows the players to make the decisions. You made a decision to carry all your assets in 1 t1 hauler, you made the decision to fly through .5 space without isntas. Do I think its unfortunate? Yes. Do I think with a slight bit of hassle you could've minimized your risks? Yes. Removing ganking like this would have no real impact on eve in general. It wont cause inflation or deflation, but it will change the feel of the game. And ultimately your main point about "a griefers playground" is pretty patently false. These guys werent griefing you (at least according to what you said) they simply made a risk assessment and decided to blow your ass up and lose a ship take a security hit so that they could loot your ship. You made a risk assessment that you could haul everything you own in one ship through a 0.5 system without encountering such a group. Griefing would be constantly suiciding you, which in truth you can do in eve, but its really a lot of work. Honestly you just come across as bitter and lashing out. And I am sorry it happened to you.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:38:00 - [89] Originally by: Eternal Fury First, they should be in secure cargo containers. This way, even if you are popped, you can retrieve the cargo unless they blow the can's up. Actually I just want to correct that misconception. If you pop your cans spill into space. Regardless of password, they're then scoopable unless anchored. So an unfriendly hauler can just scoop and repack the cans. Quote: 2nd, WTF are you useing a T1 Industrial. If you HAVE to use an indy, at LEAST use a T2 one. They at least have better defences, and a greater chance at getting though. A Blockade runner can take a few hits from Battleships, let alone suicide Kessies. And if you've been playing for 2 years, you should be able to use T2 Indy's no problem. Agreed there - T2 haulers aren't _that_ expensive, but they're much superior in terms of protecting your stuff. The same's true of freighters. Oh yes, they can still be suicide ganked, but it takes an awful lot more effort. My only real grumble about the whole practice is it's getting a bit ridiculous. I mean, I know a lot of people who could afford to use suicide ships _all day_ and still not care about the losses. Killrights are a step in the right direction, but I still think insurance shouldn't be paid if concord was on the killmail.
Mallikanth Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:38:00 - [90] Edited by: Mallikanth on 07/11/2006 08:39:26 [Edited for (some) spelling] Fact: I work 200m from a police station. Yesterday a man was murdered and a woman badly injured a further 500m from the Police station in their own (secure?) flat. Correlation to Eve: I live or work in Secure Space. Concord are not far away at any time yet I get my ship, goods and clone destroyed. Difference: Eve is a game and no one ever gets hurt (only emotionally?). I appreciatte the OP's point of view and feeling of hurt as I've been in a similar situation once. Give it a day or so and take stock - move on if you can and tackle the game again with a hard lesson learnt. I won't preach on game mechanics / gameplay etc. Enough to say I love the game. All aspects of it - even the ones that hurt my ISK balance! The difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it usually turns out to be impossible



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