Originally by: James Duar

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Yes but by the logic you're applying, you didn't really use anything did you? I mean, you lose your stuff, grind a few hours ratting or in a Lvl 4 or mining, and buy all your stuff again.

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Originally by: Bhaal

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Yes, the behavior grows because it's a tactic that is out of control, and many wannabe pirates see it as an easier way to make ISK than any other form of "piracy"

Broken...

If you can't see it's broken, you're blind, just like those who don't see it as griefing...

In one form or another, this tactic will be forced to change by CCP, we'll just have to have patience...

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Yes you're right. If someone makes themself an easy target they are bound to be stolen from.
But if the thief is caught in the act (say like Concord turning up while the aggressor is killing or looting) he is punished and the victim has his possessions returned.
Why should EVE be any different?

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Figuring out how to exploit the game mechanics is just being creative eh?

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Originally by: Bhaal

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Using an alt to loot & circumvent the system put in place by CCP is not creative, it's an exploit...

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Originally by: Rekindle

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what would help is to buff haulers just by a bit so they cant be shot in a hit or two instead of catoring to all griefers in this scenario.

If you werent in a hauler you wouldnt die in a hit or two, why penalize people for moving their gear around in situations where tehy would other wise be %100 protected.

If i were in 0.0 system that would be different. Whats the point of "prefering safer" systems if they're only safe if survive griefers ganking at an empire gate?

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Originally by: Alowishus

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Figuring out how to exploit the game mechanics is just being creative eh?

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Since when is using an alt an exploit?

CCP addressed this by taking cruise missiles away from frigs, it requires much more isk and training time to make a suicide alt, the idea was to make it not worth the effort. It's not CCPs fault that stupid people transport BPOs in a T1 hauler thus making suiciding worth the effort. If people were smart and weren't lazy then suicide alting would not occur. But because there are retards who will put a mess of BPOs in a T1 hauler, this tactic is valid.

And using an alt to do what any other third party can do- pick up a random can in space- is not an exploit. It's simply paying money to be two separate people in Eve. When I NPC hunt in a Raven picking up cans, even with a tractor beam, can be a pain. Is it an exploit to use an alt in a Vigil to loot my cans since a Raven was never meant to go 2000m/s? No, of course not. And I am paying $15 a month to be able to do it.

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Originally by: Bhaal

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Yes, the behavior grows because it's a tactic that is out of control, and many wannabe pirates see it as an easier way to make ISK than any other form of "piracy"

Broken...

If you can't see it's broken, you're blind, just like those who don't see it as griefing...

In one form or another, this tactic will be forced to change by CCP, we'll just have to have patience...

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Login traps and logout saves are also grief tactics.

Login traps - Login out of no where and gank enemies.
Counter - Mass logouts.

Logout traps - Logout of bubbles to save ships and pods. Killers can not get kills.
Counter - Nothing.

Empire suicides - Take sec hits, lose ships. Can make some ISKs.
Counter - Do not put valuables in crap ships.

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Originally by: Bhaal

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2) No insurance for corp war death, in empire or anywhere else, you're at war, no insurance company should want to insure a ship being used in warfare, that's for alliances & corps to handle, not an NPC insurance system.

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Originally by: Seleene

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Client - "You smash them."
MC - "Ooooh! Good! Like to smash!"

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Let's look at reality.
You get caught, you don't profit and are punished. The vicctim has most, if not all his possessions returned if possible.

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Originally by: Wolfways

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You don't get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything.

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Originally by: Wolfways

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In EVE.
You get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything.
You don't get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything.

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Quote:

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I'll say again, its not an exploit, because the players can take measures to guard against it. Its not like spawn camping in an FPS where there is nothing you can do to get rid of the guy killing you each time you spawn.

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Originally by: Bhaal

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I've never lost anything this way, never will, but I can certainly see something is wrong and needs to be fixed...

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Originally by: Rekindle

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1. if you jump trhoguh empire space and 99.99 % of that time is over 1.5 years and you've never had an incident and then you get ganked by a lame game mechanic where is the real problem?

2. if 3000 ppl have this problem where is the real problem? Is it really with the stupid noobs like me who think they can warp through "safe" space or does it rest with a mechanic that allows all by haulers to pass by safely?

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Quote:

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But a .5 system is not downtown Chicago.

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Originally by: Rekindle

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Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 16:17:01
A lot of you have lost sight of what pvp is, really you have. PvP is player vs player combat. Its not logging off, its not mass logins/mass log outs, its not book mark copying, and its not sitting in front of the police to suicide gank haulers as they come through other wise secure space in Jita so the defender has no recourse.

I'm over the fact I've lost my stuff - I have to be or there is no point for me to post here or even log on tonight. It sucks and I think its lame. I do question how long I will play now because I can't get over how much time its taken to acquire that stuff. Yes it was stupid of me to take that type of risk within the dynamic of the game. That doesn't change the fact its lame.

What is more lame is that there is a subset of the community that think this is what pvp is. Give your heads a shake ffs. Do you want a balanced pvp community where you fight other people in the spirit of competition or do you want more options to gank hauler noobs moving through "secure" space?

The same type of element existed in UO and there were those that claimed to be elite PvP'rs. If you're looking for ways to suicide gank yourself to kill haulers through empire space IMHO you're not a pvp player and you dont deserve the title.

A game doesnt have to be unfair to be hard core pvp, a game doesnt have to be endorse griefers to be non care bear.

Let me buy you some tin foil hats.

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Originally by: Rekindle

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What is more lame is that there is a subset of the community that think this is what pvp is.

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Originally by: Rekindle

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Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 16:17:01
A lot of you have lost sight of what pvp is, really you have. PvP is player vs player combat. Its not logging off, its not mass logins/mass log outs, its not book mark copying, and its not sitting in front of the police to suicide gank haulers as they come through other wise secure space in Jita so the defender has no recourse.

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Originally by: Santa Anna

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Originally by: Rekindle

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Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 16:17:01
A lot of you have lost sight of what pvp is, really you have. PvP is player vs player combat. Its not logging off, its not mass logins/mass log outs, its not book mark copying, and its not sitting in front of the police to suicide gank haulers as they come through other wise secure space in Jita so the defender has no recourse.

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At its core, a PVP game is one where the players create the tactics, the rules, the environment in which the other players play. There's no "right" way to PVP. Clearly there's a style that you or I or anyone else prefers, but that style is slightly different for everyone. I shouldn't not use tactic X just because you don't like it -- my choices make your game environment, just like your choices make mine. I can choose how to use the environment my fellow players have provided, and how to contribute to it, but I can't choose to make my own environment.

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Originally by: Alowishus

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Originally by: Alowishus

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Originally by: Wolfways

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Figuring out how to exploit the game mechanics is just being creative eh?

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Since when is using an alt an exploit?

CCP addressed this by taking cruise missiles away from frigs, it requires much more isk and training time to make a suicide alt, the idea was to make it not worth the effort. It's not CCPs fault that stupid people transport BPOs in a T1 hauler thus making suiciding worth the effort. If people were smart and weren't lazy then suicide alting would not occur. But because there are retards who will put a mess of BPOs in a T1 hauler, this tactic is valid.

And using an alt to do what any other third party can do- pick up a random can in space- is not an exploit. It's simply paying money to be two separate people in Eve. When I NPC hunt in a Raven picking up cans, even with a tractor beam, can be a pain. Is it an exploit to use an alt in a Vigil to loot my cans since a Raven was never meant to go 2000m/s? No, of course not. And I am paying $15 a month to be able to do it.

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I'm not talking about just using alts.
The whole idea of killing yourself for profit is rediculous. You don't see that?

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But this isn't the real world. In Eve, two characters are two people. The one who kills himself is not profiting, the one who is picking up the can is. And it costs an extra $15 a month for one person to be able to be two separate people in Eve.

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Originally by: Rekindle

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...loosing literally everything you own...explode everything (and I mean everything) I own in the form of Bpos/Bpcs/mods etc into nothing....

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Quote:

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This is not reality. For posessions to be returne the theif in question must either a) be in possession of the stolen goods or b) be able to tell the police where the goods are. If he doesn't have a) and can't/won't do b), then recovering stolen goods is a time consuming activity with little guarantee of success.

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Originally by: Wolfways

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(if you want to ignore the fact that both characters are owned and used by the same player)

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Originally by: Rekindle

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Granted my view point is a little messed up right now. Having played game for a while now ( 2 years in feb ) and loosing literally everything you own on a retarded game mechanic will have that effect on people. But let me explain:

I spend 80% of my time in 0.0 and %20 of my time in empire. I was on a empire run when a well practiced group blew up my iteron 5 hauler [with high end expanders] in a .5 system. I was not at war with them, I wasn't afk, I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything (and I mean everything) I own in the form of Bpos/Bpcs/mods etc into nothing.

Let me save the naysayers the effort: And explain outright that I understand that this is an accepted method of game play (to shoot and take the Concord hit) and then have your mates loot.

But its specifically because its accepted that I come to the conclusion this game is a griefer playground. I have invested as much time and energy in this game as griefers, yet because I chose to move my stuff through what was suposed to be secure space, I am being penalized and the "material" representation of time is now gone.

If you don't want players to partake in care bearing empire runs then dont bait them with what is 99.99999999% of the time secure space and write off being ganked with a "you should have known better" attitude. Just call this a %100 pvp only game where combat can happen against your 1hp hauler any time anywhere and remove policing altogther or otherwise repair this pathetic game mechanic.

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Originally by: Rekindle

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Any game system that welcomes tradeskill style characters needs to provide reasonable provisions for them to move through from point a to point b

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