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I've never played a game that cators to grief play as much as this one

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Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:54:00 - [331] Originally by: Rekindle Tehre IS an issue and it is a FLAw in the game mechanics that allows this to happen its obvious by the consequences. Your opinion, which CCP and the majority of Eve disagrees with. So I guess your best bet is to quit Eve. And possibly make your own MMORPG where whatever you say goes. But here, the reality of it is your opinion is misguided.
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:57:00 - [332] Originally by: Rekindle Originally by: Ikvar So you lost everything you've owned after playing? Who cares? Why make a thread about it? Move on or quit the game, if you don't like the way EVE works then simply don't play the game. People like you sometimes make me think you get yourself killed in these ways just so you can get all uppity and self righteous. Whos being sell rigteous here? I'm pointing out an obvious flaw in game mechanics which you rebute by flames and insults. You just take what I say as flames and insults because you still think you're right. Originally by: Rekindle I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything I own.
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:00:00 - [333] Edited by: Taaketa Frist on 07/11/2006 23:01:17 Heres a similar situation for you. My buddy is in his suicide ship. I'm in my hauler, cloaked at a gate or just floating about. Hes busy scanning obvious AFK haulers for nice cargo, he spots one with 1.5 billion ISK of stuff NOT in cargo containers (which increases the chance of the stuff being destroyed in swoop since its the container that blows up and not the items in the can) So he thinks "sweet, we got a target time for shooty shooty Concord won't be able to respond fast enough." Then his buddy loots the can and goes and hides again with his good old cloaking device. This situation is no different if it happened to be the suicide pilot's alt. I have no issue with this kind of this play as it COUNTERABLE and PUNISHMENT is served. (And whoever said transports where for deep space only, no they weren't. They were for better protection of hauling simply because this kind of play became popular and a counter needed to be put in place.) Originally by: DrAtomic If CCP would do a poll based on one vote per creditcard (so multiple accounts donot get multiple votes) I'm very sure that 80% would judge this kind of gameplay griefing/pk-ing and an unwanted feature that was designed as empire security system. Good thing I pay with two cards then. I still win. -------------- Dang nabit
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:00:00 - [334] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Rekindle Tehre IS an issue and it is a FLAw in the game mechanics that allows this to happen its obvious by the consequences. Your opinion, which CCP and the majority of Eve disagrees with. So I guess your best bet is to quit Eve. And possibly make your own MMORPG where whatever you say goes. But here, the reality of it is your opinion is misguided. No the reality is that the majority of EvE agrees. However what you'll find on the boards here are the majority of the pirates, pk-ers and pvp-ers. My bet is that the forum posters are 5% carebears (by lack of a better word) and 95% of pirates, pk-ers and pvp-ers. It's called vocal minority versus silent majority. If CCP would do a poll based on one vote per creditcard (so multiple accounts donot get multiple votes) I'm very sure that 80% would judge this kind of gameplay griefing/pk-ing and an unwanted feature that was designed as empire security system. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:01:00 - [335] Originally by: Rekindle We just have differing view on what" piracy" is and what risk vs reward is. Saying this is piracy is saying logging in /out during fleet ops is uber pvp. Again, your opinion. One that is not shared by many. We all have our opinions of what is lame. Mine mostly fall in line with the logical majority of Eve and not the rare whiner who transports BPOs in T1 haulers.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:02:00 - [336] Originally by: Alowishus No the reality is that the majority of EvE agrees. Prove it.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:02:00 - [337] When i started playing i thought Concord was there to kill criminals in hi-sec. Whether you die from pirate attack or not is not their problem. I can accept that. What i find hard to accept is that CCP intended the pirates to benefit from the attack anyway. Some say it's risk vs. reward. Well...The hauler, no matter how much precautions he takes is risking everything he carries (which could be worth billions). You're never totally safe in EVE remember. His reward for making it to his destination intact? Other than still having what he had in the first place, nothing. The pk? He risks his ship (virtually nothing with how easy it is to make ISK's), a sec hit (Like it really matters...), and maybe being very bored for hours if no easy target comes along. His reward if he manages to destroy another players ship? Depends on the cargo and ship, but is potentially huge. Risk vs reward for pk's is very one-sided. Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:04:00 - [338] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Alowishus No the reality is that the majority of EvE agrees. Prove it. Fly to jita, explain the question and ask for a vote. Fly to a pirate infested low-sec system and do the same. Add up the numbers of people playing in low-sec versus people playing in empire and viola. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:05:00 - [339] Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 23:07:30 We're here to prove nothing. we're here to express opinions on game play mechanis. We're not here to express who's pee wee is bigger than someone elses. We're not here to say "no you're wrong Coronel sanders". I'm not attacking you or your play style - im talking about a game tactic which is obviously flawed. Please for the love of god stop trying to turn this int oa me vs you debate. Im not against piracy unless your defintion of piracy is equated with exploitation. Its a debate on teh mechanics of the game, not a petition to turn it into wow. my god I thought these debates were settled 10 years ago in UO. Let me get my crayons out and draw this out for people: There is a difference between pvp, between piracy and between grief cheap ass tactics which are clearly in violation of systems that were intended to thwart such tactics. -------------------------------------------
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:06:00 - [340] Originally by: Wolfways Other than still having what he had in the first place, nothing. Then why do it? There must be some reward. Whether it be moving to a new area to join a new corp with better oppurtunities, get a new agent, find a research slot, there is some reward. If not then he's pretty stupid for doing it. That's like saying, "what's the reward for taking an unfitted BS through a chokepoint with 500 BPOs in the hold." Well the lack of reward should be pretty obvious to all and the question doesn't need to be asked.

Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:08:00 - [341] Edited by: Alowishus on 07/11/2006 23:08:47 Originally by: Rekindle we're here to express opinions on game play mechanis. Yes, you are free to express your misguided and unpopular opinions. But if you're going to assert that your odd opinions are accurate, when reality states otherwise, then the burden of proof is on you.
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:10:00 - [342] I want to know where these mythical 5% costs from an insurable ship come from also. Here is a hint, loss = ship cost + insurance cost + module cost - insurance payout. It is going to be more than 5m for a Raven. Also, transports aren't just for 0.0. That is just silly, and using the RP description of a ship to determine its stated purpose is even more silly. They are for transporting high value cargo in more security. Like when you want to avoid a suicide gank. I fail to see what is broken about the mechanics involved in suicide ganking other than some spurious real world examples. It punishes carelessness and acts as an ISK sink. Seems like a win win to me. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:11:00 - [343] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways Other than still having what he had in the first place, nothing. Then why do it? There must be some reward. Whether it be moving to a new area to join a new corp with better oppurtunities, get a new agent, find a research slot, there is some reward. If not then he's pretty stupid for doing it. That's like saying, "what's the reward for taking an unfitted BS through a chokepoint with 500 BPOs in the hold." Well the lack of reward should be pretty obvious to all and the question doesn't need to be asked. So you think that getting to your destination equals the potential reward for the pk? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:13:00 - [344] Originally by: Rekindle Im not against piracy unless your defintion of piracy is equated with exploitation. There you go again with the exploit talk. CCP tells you what the exploits are in this game. CCP also tells you what griefing is in this game. As of now this tactic is neither. You need to learn what an exploit is. You attack someone in high sec and your ship gets destroyed. It's only an exploit if your ship does not get destroyed. What happens after, as far as the looting of your can, whether it was looted by an alt, a friend or a random third party, no exploit has occured. Call it lame if you want. I call transporting BPOs in T1 haulers lame. To each his own. But on the otherhand I whine a lot less than you.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:15:00 - [345] Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways Other than still having what he had in the first place, nothing. Then why do it? There must be some reward. Whether it be moving to a new area to join a new corp with better oppurtunities, get a new agent, find a research slot, there is some reward. If not then he's pretty stupid for doing it. That's like saying, "what's the reward for taking an unfitted BS through a chokepoint with 500 BPOs in the hold." Well the lack of reward should be pretty obvious to all and the question doesn't need to be asked. So you think that getting to your destination equals the potential reward for the pk? No, but on the otherhand you can limit your risk so that the reward/risk factor is better for you. When you do things in Eve that have extreme risk, with no reward and you are taken advantage of, that's your fault.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [346] Originally by: Sammiel I want to know where these mythical 5% costs from an insurable ship come from also. Here is a hint, loss = ship cost + insurance cost + module cost - insurance payout. It is going to be more than 5m for a Raven. Also, transports aren't just for 0.0. That is just silly, and using the RP description of a ship to determine its stated purpose is even more silly. They are for transporting high value cargo in more security. Like when you want to avoid a suicide gank. I fail to see what is broken about the mechanics involved in suicide ganking other than some spurious real world examples. It punishes carelessness and acts as an ISK sink. Seems like a win win to me. But do you think that the pk, who risks virtually nothing by using this game mechanic, should reap the benefits? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:17:00 - [347] Quote: There you go again with the exploit talk. CCP tells you what the exploits are in this game. CCP also tells you what griefing is in this game. As of now this tactic is neither. You need to learn what an exploit is. Now who's showing lack of intlligence How long have you played this game? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Weps Oner	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:19:00 - [348] Edited by: Weps Oner on 07/11/2006 23:20:14 If it were pvp, you would have two parties saying "gg". That sums it up I guess. <dang alt....>
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:19:00 - [349] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways Other than still having what he had in the first place, nothing. Then why do it? There must be some reward. Whether it be moving to a new area to join a new corp with better oppurtunities, get a new agent, find a research slot, there is some reward. If not then he's pretty stupid for doing it. That's like saying, "what's the reward for taking an unfitted BS through a chokepoint with 500 BPOs in the hold." Well the lack of reward should be pretty obvious to all and the question doesn't need to be asked. So you think that getting to your destination equals the potential reward for the pk? No, but on the otherhand you can limit your risk so that the reward/risk factor is better for you. When you do things in Eve that have extreme risk, with no reward and you are taken advantage of, that's your fault. You're avoiding the point of my posts. As i asked above: Quote: But do you think that the pk, who risks virtually nothing by using this game mechanic, should reap the benefits? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:22:00 - [350] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: There you go again with the exploit talk. CCP tells you what the exploits are in this game. CCP also tells you what griefing is in this game. As of now this tactic is neither. You need to learn what an exploit is. Now who's showing lack of intlligence How long have you played this game? Until CCP says it's an exploit, it is not an exploit. There are exploits that people commit that nobody knows is an exploit but when this occurs, historically, CCP makes a statement and begins banning people who continue to use the exploit. Changes to game mechanics are not indicative of an exploit. If that were the case then each time CCP nerfed something it would indicate that anyone who used it prior to the nerf was exploiting game mechanics. Caldari are considered really powerful right now, if missiles are nerfed does that mean using missiles now is an exploit? Please.

Dee Ellis	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:25:00 - [351] Originally by: Weps Oner Edited by: Weps Oner on 07/11/2006 23:20:14 If it were pvp, you would have two parties saying "gg". That sums it up I guess. <dang alt....> You might want to check up on meaning of usage of the term you know...
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:27:00 - [352] Originally by: Wolfways But do you think that the pk, who risks virtually nothing by using this game mechanic, should reap the benefits? That's what smart piracy is, my friend. Do you think sitting in a gate camp of fifty people (thus risking virtually nothing) and insta-popping every person that comes through one by one and looting their can is an exploit? When I'd go around ransoming mining barges in an interceptor, was I exploiting? What about when I'd tank the sentry guns in my Arma and pop haulers and grab their loot with an alt? If it was an exploit, don't you think the sentry guns should instapop me? Low risk vs. high reward, regardless of the risk vs. reward of your victim/opponent, does not make anything an exploit, it just makes you smart.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:41:00 - [353] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways But do you think that the pk, who risks virtually nothing by using this game mechanic, should reap the benefits? That's what smart piracy is, my friend. Do you think sitting in a gate camp of fifty people (thus risking virtually nothing) and insta-popping every person that comes through one by one and looting their can is an exploit? When I'd go around ransoming mining barges in an interceptor, was I exploiting? What about when I'd tank the sentry guns in my Arma and pop haulers and grab their loot with an alt? If it was an exploit, don't you think the sentry guns should instapop me? Low risk vs. high reward, regardless of the risk vs. reward of your victim/opponent, does not make anything an exploit, it just makes you smart. Ah thank you. So bigger rewards should not mean a bigger risk. Finally someone from the "other side" who admits that pvp has nothing to do with risk vs reward. In that case hi-sec should have access to everything low-sec has, like better ores, tougher npc's, etc. Or do you mean that risk vs reward matters, unless players can find a loophole in the game mechanics to use? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
pizdec	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:44:00 - [354] Edited by: pizdec on 07/11/2006 23:46:22 Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 23:07:30 Please for the love of god stop trying to turn this int oa me vs you debate. What just occured to me is that Rekindle is actually trying to be hurt, personally, emotionally. Have you noticed that almost in every reply he repeats: you vs. me, stop calling me idiot, I don't need your judgement. And guess what? It works! He gets slammed once again in the next 10 posts. Bring the flames ppl. The man is in pain. And he likes it.
Dee Ellis	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:46:00 - [355] Stupidity shouldn't equal bigger risk When someone throws money at me instead of knives, I just don't make an effort... When a little T1 frigate charges my BS head first, I don't make an effort either... When someone brings an Oberon and a big ass tanker, I just don't make an effort... However, when someone thinks you can jump around screaming "I'm wearing a platinum rolex and can't fight!!" infront of a gang of thugs, it's just not an efort for them...
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:51:00 - [356] Originally by: pizdec Edited by: pizdec on 07/11/2006 23:46:22 Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 23:07:30 Please for the love of god stop trying to turn this int oa me vs you debate. What just occured to me is that Rekindle is actually trying to be hurt, personally, emotionally. Have you noticed that almost in every reply he repeats: you vs. me, stop calling me idiot, I don't need your judgement. And guess what? It works! He gets slammed once again in the next 10 posts. Bring the flames ppl. The man is in pain. And he likes it. No he's not, he's trying to have a civil debate about his opinion. When people run out of counter arguments they start bashing him, also known as flaming. He has said over and over that he has accepted his losses. He debates however that a game mechanic is flawed. Some people debate with him or against him others resort to flaming and discrediting through lack of argumental skills or maturity. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:54:00 - [357] Originally by: Dee Ellis Stupidity shouldn't equal bigger risk When someone throws money at me instead of knives, I just don't make an effort... When a little T1 frigate charges my BS head first, I don't make an effort either... When someone brings an Oberon and a big ass tanker, I just don't make an effort... However, when someone thinks you can jump around screaming "I'm wearing a platinum rolex and can't fight!!" infront of a gang of thugs, it's just not an efort for them... We're not talking about the stupidity of the person waving cash around. We're talking about the police officer who turns up and knocks you out, then when you wake up says "Well you managed to kill him before i got to you. You might aswell take his cash." Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:56:00 - [358] Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Wolfways But do you think that the pk, who risks virtually nothing by using this game mechanic, should reap the benefits? That's what smart piracy is, my friend. Do you think sitting in a gate camp of fifty people (thus risking virtually nothing) and insta-popping every person that comes through one by one and looting their can is an exploit? When I'd go around ransoming mining barges in an interceptor, was I exploiting? What about when I'd tank the sentry guns in my Arma and pop haulers and grab their loot with an alt? If it was an exploit, don't you think the sentry guns should instapop me? Low risk vs. high reward, regardless of the risk vs. reward of your victim/opponent, does not make anything an exploit, it just makes you smart. Ah thank you. So bigger rewards should not mean a bigger risk. Finally someone from the "other side" who admits that pvp has nothing to do with risk vs reward. In that case hi-sec should have access to everything low-sec has, like better ores, tougher npc's, etc. Or do you mean that risk vs reward matters, unless players can find a loophole in the game mechanics to use? Nope, PvP has nothing to do with risk vs. reward. Only PvE does. But CCP gives you all the tools required to navigate high sec space with almost complete safety and avoid losses to PvPers. In high sec space, maybe PvP isn't voluntary, but dying and losing BPOs is. He didn't have to be lazy and stupid, he chose to do it. He may as well have just jettisoned his cargo in the middle of Jita. If he did that and I looted a BPO would I be exploiting because there is no risk? No. The fact is that you guys don't like the tactic. And I can't even say I'm fond of it really, but I understand it's a valid tactic and if it happens to me I have nobody to blame but myself. On the flip side I won't protest too highly if CCP comes up with a good way to change it. But people need to take some personal responsibility and realize that a lack of total safety is part of this game. And if you think this tactic inidicates the risk in 0.0 is no higher than empire, please bring some BPOs in a hauler out to Curse.
Dee Ellis	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:03:00 - [359] Originally by: Wolfways We're not talking about the stupidity of the person waving cash around. We're talking about the police officer who turns up and knocks you out, then when you wake up says "Well you managed to kill him before i got to you. You might aswell take his cash." Problem is, the guy who got mugged is rushed to the hospital and his stuff thrown into a container by the mugger... A policeman couldn't possibly find all the stuff that belongs. Now, a friend of the mugger comes by and empties the container.. The police aren't looking in that area and won't do anything, besides they can't until the mugged wakes up, he did get blown into tiny bits after all..
pizdec	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:08:00 - [360] Edited by: pizdec on 08/11/2006 00:16:57 Originally by: DrAtomic No he's not, he's trying to have a civil debate about his opinion. When people run out of counter arguments they start bashing him, also known as flaming. He has said over and over that he has accepted his losses. He debates however that a game mechanic is flawed. Some people debate with him or against him others resort to flaming and discrediting through lack of argumental skills or maturity. Yeah, he is. It was obvious 11 pages ago, that his oppinion is in minority. In evry single reply he emphisizes that he is hurt. Personally, I am not going to argue about the subject. Previous 12 pages argued this to death. What caught my attention was his obvious desire to continue grieving his loss. And the loss is huge. No ****.



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