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I've never played a game that cators to grief play as much as this one

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Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:29:00 - [151] Quote: Consider this: The game is exactly the way the creators envisioned it. You can do certain things in this game that you cant do in others. Thats what makes it great. I would argue that the game is NOT exactly what the DEV's envisioned... That's why they have to keep changing major game mechanics that players find a way to exploit... Since day 1 the DEV's have had to deal with this... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:33:00 - [152] Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 13:27:57 This game caters to griefers by making non pvp targets fodder for people who spend 10-15 hours a day sitting a gate waiting for stuff to come through -- that is the crux of the eve experience. They only do this because they can. They are allowed to do it. They can even shoot you if they pay the price. Its not griefplay. They werent out there to particulary hurt YOU! So its not grief. Had they followed you around for weeks doing this its something else. Yes they have a poor sense of entertainment, but I would do exactly the same if isk where in dire need and I needed them very quickly. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:35:00 - [153] Originally by: Bhaal I would argue that the game is NOT exactly what the DEV's envisioned... That's why they have to keep changing major game mechanics that players find a way to exploit... Since day 1 the DEV's have had to deal with this... If they didnt want people to shoot other people in high-sec space they would have jammed all guns by default in theese systems. They have not, and dont intend to as far as I know. as someone said, its high-security... not complete security. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:36:00 - [154] Originally by: Rekindle I Empire space in high sec space, outside the paradigm of empire war, is a consentual pvp zone. Sorry, you're wrong. I realise that this is what you belive and underpins your entire argument, but it is fundamentally wrong. Originally by: Rekindle Eve has a similar system except its not sufficient enough to protect everyone, just people in certain ships. It is sufficient to protect anyone with the presence of mind to fit their ship on the basis that it could be attacked at any time, anywhere. This is not limited to just people in T2 ships or freighters. Originally by: Rekindle I propose such as system encourages grief play, something I continue to believe regardless of how much advice, flaming or insulting some of you may dish out here. In short, you came here not prepared to listen to anyone other than those whose opinions matched your own. Originally by: Rekindle Again, this is like saying you should put on a radiation suit to avoid the nuclear testing in your back yard: Just because its happening doesn't mean you have to automatically accept it. This is quite a ridiculous comparison. It is an accepted fact that this kind of piracy can occur anywhere within Eve. It not accepted that Nuclear testing can occur anywhere on earth. A better comparison would be that you can be robbed, anywhere, at any time. Therefore, it is wise to take the necessary precautions to sa*uard yourself from this within the limits of what the law allows. Originally by:** Rekindle Iteron m5 ships are used to transport trit - thats it - if you want the luxury of moving other items spend the 1 bil on a freigther or 100mil on t2 hauler. or ship x y z to avoid a broken game mechanic, because its fine the way it is and it helps the economy. Because its impossible to fit an Iteron 5 to withstand an attack for any length of time? Originally by: Rekindle This game caters to griefers by making non pvp targets fodder for people who spend 10-15 hours a day sitting a gate waiting for stuff to come through -- that is the crux of the eve experience. If someone is prepared to spend 10-15 hours of their day waiting on the offchance that a single big payout poorly fitted craft might come through a gate near them, then I take my hat off to them for their dedication. Of course, if people fitted their freighters so they were not so susceptable to attack, then these pirates would be waiting a good deal longer to be attacked.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:37:00 - [155] Originally by: Rekindle I propose such as system encourages grief play, something I continue to believe regardless of how much advice, flaming or insulting some of you may dish out here. (Learn to attack the idea, not the person - its really quite shallow and immature). You keep using this term. I do not think you know what it means. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:37:00 - [156] again our understandings differ: Wikipedia Generally, players are griefers if their in-game conduct violates the norms, either explicit or implied, of in-game society in such a way as to frustrate and anger other players. Actions considered to constitute griefing include but are not limited to: kill stealing, player killing, spamming, team killing, ninja looting, spawn camping, and corpse camping. Using exploits in order to harass other players also constitutes griefing. -------------------------------------------
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:40:00 - [157] Originally by: Rekindle again our understandings differ: Wikipedia Generally, players are griefers if their in-game conduct violates the norms, either explicit or implied, of in-game society in such a way as to frustrate and anger other players. Actions considered to constitute griefing include but are not limited to: kill stealing, player killing, spamming, team killing, ninja looting, spawn camping, and corpse camping. Using exploits in order to harass other players also constitutes griefing. And yes... all is allowed within game rules. Where ever you are in EVE you can do it. Depending on where though, there is a price. Try to understand it, please mate. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:44:00 - [158] Originally by: Lorn Yeager Originally by: Bhaal I would argue that the game is NOT exactly what the DEV's envisioned... That's why they have to keep changing major game mechanics that players find a way to exploit... Since day 1 the DEV's have had to deal with this... If they didnt want people to shoot other people in high-sec space they would have jammed all guns by default in theese systems. They have not, and dont intend to as far as I know. as someone said, its high-security... not complete security. Dude, gimme a break. I'm not against firing a gun on another player in empire. What I'm against is players allowed to kill a hauler, use an alt to get the loot, the only one that can fire at the alt legally is in a pod with no guns, and the original attacker gets a full refund on his ship for getting killed by the police for commiting a crime. There is a very specific procedure involved to get around the Concord game mechanic. it's an obvious exploit. At the very least it's insurance fraud... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:47:00 - [159] Quote: The act of piracy due to the victim not taking proper acction to prevent it.... No, that act of piracy due to the aggressor exploiting game mechanics. Quote: piracy (please stop calling it "griefing" its very immature) please stop calling it piracy, it's lying. Quote: the reality is the risk vs reward pardigm of this game is so majorly messed up its not funny. I have to agree there. The pirates who hang around .5 waiting for an easy kill are lame. The player who is not used to pvp, and who's ship isn't set up for pvp risks losing much...while the pirate risks virtually nothing yet recieves the rewards. I don't understand those who say that suicide killing is just part of the game. Like life, the number one rule should be survive! The penalty for dying should be something that discourages suicide attacks. Or if that isn't possible because it would ruin the fun of the game then create game mechanics which stop suicides happening. I've seen this suicide tactic in other games and find it rediculous and also the most immersion-breaking thing in games. If someone tells me to kill myself for any reward i'll give him a grenade and tell him where to shove it! Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:48:00 - [160] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Lorn Yeager Originally by: Bhaal I would argue that the game is NOT exactly what the DEV's envisioned... That's why they have to keep changing major game mechanics that players find a way to exploit... Since day 1 the DEV's have had to deal with this... If they didnt want people to shoot other people in high-sec space they would have jammed all guns by default in theese systems. They have not, and dont intend to as far as I know. as someone said, its high-security... not complete security. Dude, gimme a break. I'm not against firing a gun on another player in empire. What I'm against is players allowed to kill a hauler, use an alt to get the loot, the only one that can fire at the alt legally is in a pod with no guns, and the original attacker gets a full refund on his ship for getting killed by the police for commiting a crime. There is a very specific procedure involved to get around the Concord game mechanic. it's an obvious exploit. At the very least it's insurance fraud... Lets have a look at it then. What would you propose we did about it. People are allowed multiple accounts. People are allowed a friend ingame (to grab the loot). People are allowed to shoot at haulers. Should haulers become invincible? (just teasing you there) Dont question the knife, but the hand that leads it. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls

Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:49:00 - [161] Originally by: Rekindle Wikipedia Generally, players are griefers if their in-game conduct violates the norms, either explicit or implied, of in-game society in such a way as to frustrate and anger other players. The act of piracy does not violate the norms of the Eve in game society. While it is not the occupation of the majority, it is not an action which is outside of the "norms" for the game and is, in fact, an accepted part of the game.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Necroborg The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:52:00 - [162] Originally by: Bhaal What I'm against is players allowed to kill a hauler, use an alt to get the loot, the only one that can fire at the alt legally is in a pod with no guns, and the original attacker gets a full refund on his ship for getting killed by the police for commiting a crime. There is a very specific procedure involved to get around the Concord game mechanic. it's an obvious exploit. Nonsense. This is not an exploit if another 'character' picks up the loot. Simple rule, don't travel with all your stuff in a hauler that can be killed within seconds. No need to dumb down Eve to stop people being dumb enough to lose. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:53:00 - [163] Rule #1 of mmorpg games - if you give players the option to grief (as previously defined by me for the naysayers) they will use it. If you want to make a massive multiplayer game work and not get the rep of being a game that is a griefer's play ground you need to close the gaps for grief play - not say its an accepted method. The solution to this is quite simple - the risk to a hauler needs to be balanced a bit more. Maybe if you're in a hauler the security rating of a system should change? Or if some ass clown decides to fire at a ship in empire the penality should be increased to properly measure up against the risk that people take moving their hangars from one part of space to another. -------------------------------------------
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [164] Originally by: Wolfways please stop calling it piracy, it's lying. How is it "lying?" The act of destroying another ship in order to sieze its cargo is piracy. Originally by: Wolfways The player who is not used to pvp, and who's ship isn't set up for pvp risks losing much...while the pirate risks virtually nothing yet recieves the rewards. I consider myself to be a player who is not used to PvP, yet I fit my ship against such predations. I do see where you are coming from, but I really don't see why you think it is such an issue when it is so easy to protect yourself against this kind of behaviour. All I see being suggested is that players should have "risk free" gaming, because they can't be bothered to make the effort to take precautions.
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [165] Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 07/11/2006 13:57:21 Originally by: Rekindle Rule #1 of mmorpg games - if you give players the option to grief (as previously defined by me for the naysayers) they will use it. If you want to make a massive multiplayer game work and not get the rep of being a game that is a griefer's play ground you need to close the gaps for grief play - not say its an accepted method. The solution to this is quite simple - the risk to a hauler needs to be balanced a bit more. Maybe if you're in a hauler the security rating of a system should change? Or if some ass clown decides to fire at a ship in empire the penality should be increased to properly measure up against the risk that people take moving their hangars from one part of space to another. Why should the hauler have higher protection by default than the T1 cruiser flying next to him? Imagine the number of T1 cruisers out there fittet with mining lasers or, even a well fitted combat cruiser with a low experienced player. And, its not grief. Its just you who feels hurt in a very deep way. Im sorry for that. But try to accept that the game you play allow these things by default. Oh, and if you want to move all you have - why do it in ONE hauler. And not three? And why not in a transport ship? They can withstand heavy fire you know. ;-) Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:57:00 - [166] Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitched.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:02:00 - [167] Quote: Lets have a look at it then. What would you propose we did about it. Impose more penalties: 1) No insurance for death by Concord. 2) No insurance for corp war death, in empire or anywhere else, you're at war, no insurance company should want to insure a ship being used in warfare, that's for alliances & corps to handle, not an NPC insurance system. 3) Along with the sec hit, impose a system arrest warrant for the attacker, if he shows up in the system where the last crime was committed within 7 days, Concord blows up his ship. Remove the repetitive/farming nature of this tactic. Impose more severe penalties so only the extreme cases/targets are hit with this method, and not allow it to occur as an every day farming technique for haulers in empire space. This is too rampant, and players are flocking to this method of gameplay, when CCP needs to provide them with more pirate/ganking opportunities elsewhere. If you think lvl 4 agent mission farming in empire is a joke, I don't see how you can't similarily call this a joke... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:07:00 - [168] How in god's name can you conclude that high-sec piracy is a 'farming' activity? --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Cell Satimo Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:09:00 - [169] No player in their right mind carries BPOs in an industrial ship, Anywhere, Ever. A freighter, battleship, battlecruiser, Interceptor maybe... There were measures (you yourself) are aware of, and common sense (don't move everything at once) for not getting concorddokened. EvE doesn't support grief play, it supports Darwinian selection. Eve Web-Ring Your guide to all sites In-Game and Out. Works in IGB
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [170] Edited by: Bhaal on 07/11/2006 14:11:31 Originally by: James Duar How in god's name can you conclude that high-sec piracy is a 'farming' activity? Go to Jita and take a look at all of them hanging at gates, it's absurd. These "pirates" hang out in front of the cops all day out in front of wal-mart picking ppl off and stealing their goods... Can you honestly say that this is what CCP envisioned 1.0 space to be? Really? If so, you're foolish... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus

Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [171] Tarazed Aquilae learn to read someone's thread before you actually insult them. If you can't be bothered to read the thread you really have no business making personal attacks. -------------------------------------------
Ki An Gallente Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:12:00 - [172] Originally by: Bhaal Impose more penalties: 1) No insurance for death by Concord. 2) No insurance for corp war death, in empire or anywhere else, you're at war, no insurance company should want to insure a ship being used in warfare, that's for alliances & corps to handle, not an NPC insurance system. 3) Along with the sec hit, impose a system arrest warrant for the attacker, if he shows up in the system where the last crime was committed within 7 days, Concord blows up his ship. Remove the repetitive/farming nature of this tactic. Impose more severe penalties so only the extreme cases/targets are hit with this method, and not allow it to occur as an every day farming technique for haulers in empire space. This is too rampant, and players are flocking to this method of gameplay, when CCP needs to provide them with more pirate/ganking opportunities elsewhere. If you think lvl 4 agent mission farming in empire is a joke, I don't see how you can't similarily call this a joke... Hmmm... worth thinking about. Makes it more real. If this is instituted though, you'de have to institute a similar response from NPC pirate corps. Say a mission runner gets "Pirate Invasion". He completes it and the next day he gets it again, only this time the pirates in the mission got smart and lay a trap for the mission runner. Would make it more real too, right? /Ki
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:12:00 - [173] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 07/11/2006 14:11:31 Originally by: James Duar How in god's name can you conclude that high-sec piracy is a 'farming' activity? Go to Jita and take a look at all of them hanging at gates, it's absurd. These "pirates" hang out in front of the cops all day out in front of wal-mart picking ppl off and stealing their goods... Can you honestly say that this is what CCP envisioned 1.0 space to be? Really? If so, you're foolish... Thanks, in less than my 500 paragraphs I've written today you've just summed it up. -------------------------------------------
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:12:00 - [174] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Wolfways please stop calling it piracy, it's lying. How is it "lying?" The act of destroying another ship in order to sieze its cargo is piracy. Originally by: Wolfways The player who is not used to pvp, and who's ship isn't set up for pvp risks losing much...while the pirate risks virtually nothing yet recieves the rewards. I consider myself to be a player who is not used to PvP, yet I fit my ship against such predations. I do see where you are coming from, but I really don't see why you think it is such an issue when it is so easy to protect yourself against this kind of behaviour. All I see being suggested is that players should have "risk free" gaming, because they can't be bothered to make the effort to take precautions. By calling yourself a pirate you admit that you are taking on at least a small amount of the roleplay that is indicated in the games background. To me that is completely different to the player who exploits game mechanics to achieve a kill and/or loot at the expense of another player. I call that player a griefer. I personally don't want a risk free game. What i do want is for EVE to be more realistic in the punishment of criminals, and not punish those who are the victims of the criminals. Obviously i'm not talking about permadeath or anything like that, but something at least. I know of one game where if you are caught commiting a crime you are stripped of all your possessions and sent to jail. In jail you can try to escape by performing missions, actions, and bribing gards, to escape. Sounds good to me Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
eLusi0n Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:14:00 - [175] If you want to know what a griefing playground is, go play Lineage 2. If you want to go to grief-hell, then play on this server. This debate on legitimacy and lack-there-of could go on forever. "Some people grin and bear it, others smile and change it, but the ones who frown and dwindle on it will never progress." Move along.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:16:00 - [176] Quote: Hmmm... worth thinking about. Makes it more real. If this is instituted though, you'de have to institute a similar response from NPC pirate corps. Say a mission runner gets "Pirate Invasion". He completes it and the next day he gets it again, only this time the pirates in the mission got smart and lay a trap for the mission runner. Would make it more real too, right? Anything to make the PvE in this game less monotonous is good I think... I'm not a big time mission runner, just doesn't fit in an MMO too well... Anything to liven up missions would be good, as they are certainly repatative & over farmed, same with plexes... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Steven Dynahir Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:20:00 - [177] Originally by: Rekindle See, there is dieing to a legit pvp encounter and there is dieing to cheap ass tactics. Tonight I encountered the latter and I put it in the same cateogory as logging out in combat, BM copying, and other less than prestigious "techniques" this game offers to augment pvp encounters. You are right. Personally I consider all of those as bad game design, all of which could have been fixed if CCP would have decided to do so. Lets consider a few things that could have been done. 1. Destroying a ship in Empire space All involved characters should have their ship confiscated by concord, 33% of their empire equity from account (yes, from all alts) confiscated for the loss compensation, involved character slot locked out for 6 months and a -2 sec hit for each alt per each account involved. 2. Destroying a POD in Empire space All involved parties should have their ship confiscated by concord, 66% of their empire equity from account (yes, from all alts) confiscated for the loss compensation, involved character slot locked out for 18 months and a -5 sec hit for each alt per each account involved. Yes, that would mean that if you had 3 characters, of which one blows a ship up, you'd end up with two characters with 2/3 of their assets and no access to hi-sec. And your friend looting the stuff would be in the same mess. Harsh? No. Kill a guy in RL get a 10 years of government paid food & apartment. --- Sell orders Recruitment

Tirg Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:21:00 - [178] Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 13:27:57 I'm comparing this to other games that have created consentual and non consentual zones of pvp encounters (well, well, well before WoW). In many games if you attack within the range of "guarded space" you get insta wacked. Eve has a similar system except its not sufficient enough to protect everyone, just people in certain ships. However, in Ultima, you could get theived in town. They would go grey, you could call the guards, they'd get instawhacked, but you wouldn't get your item back. He was smart enough to pass that item off to his buddy before dieing, or his buddy looted him and passed it to a 3rd guildmate, before he also got whacked. The person traded to never got whacked:) Sound familiar? Now your sig is mine MUAHAHAHAHAHA - Xorus

Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:24:00 - [179] Originally by: Bhaal Go to Jita and take a look at all of them hanging at gates, it's absurd. So a widespread activity, but only commonplace in certain areas. Solution for players: avoid those areas. If you want to mix with the rest of the livestock in Jita, you should expect periodic culling. The power is entirely in the hands of the players to avoid this sort of piracy, therefore I don't see the "act" in itself as a problem. If players could do nothing about it, then yes, the OP might have a point. As it stands, it is entirely avoidable, hence the OPs lack of point. However, I do agree with some of your suggestions for increasing the penalities on high sec piracy. Originally by: Bhaal Can you honestly say that this is what CCP envisioned 1.0 space to be? Really? Can you honestly say that 500 people in Jita, flying around with billions of ISK worth of cargo with absolutely no risk what-so-ever is what CCP envisioned?
Changaroo State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:28:00 - [180] I would actually prefer to hear the opinion of a dev rather than a GM. In the end it is they who are invoking the "hamsters of doom" to change the game and the GM's.



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