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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:29:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Wolfways To me that is completely different to the player who exploits game mechanics to achieve a kill and/or loot at the expense of another player. I call that player a griefer.
(emphasis added) Prime example of someone who just doesn't understand the term. ----------
IBTL \o/ |
Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:29:00 -
[182]
Quote: Can you honestly say that 500 people in Jita, flying around with billions of ISK worth of cargo with absolutely no risk what-so-ever is what CCP envisioned?
Uhm, YES!
It's a freaking 1.0 trade hub!
What would you expect?
If CCP didn't expect trade hubs to develop, and very rich industrial corps/individuals to come to power and trade in those hubs, they are in the wrong business...
Piracy & crime is primarily for lower sec, corporate espionage, takeovers & market PvP etc are for higher sec.
Since there are no real good mechanics for white collar crimes, everything is shootie shootie... Even where it's not supposed to be...
------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
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Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:32:00 -
[183]
Quote: However, in Ultima, you could get theived in town. They would go grey, you could call the guards, they'd get instawhacked, but you wouldn't get your item back. He was smart enough to pass that item off to his buddy before dieing, or his buddy looted him and passed it to a 3rd guildmate, before he also got whacked. The person traded to never got whacked:) Sound familiar?
Ok, they made a mistake 20years ago. Lets repeat it.
--- Sell orders Recruitment
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:33:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Tirg
Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 13:27:57 I'm comparing this to other games that have created consentual and non consentual zones of pvp encounters (well, well, well before WoW). In many games if you attack within the range of "guarded space" you get insta wacked. Eve has a similar system except its not sufficient enough to protect everyone, just people in certain ships.
However, in Ultima, you could get theived in town. They would go grey, you could call the guards, they'd get instawhacked, but you wouldn't get your item back. He was smart enough to pass that item off to his buddy before dieing, or his buddy looted him and passed it to a 3rd guildmate, before he also got whacked. The person traded to never got whacked:) Sound familiar?
So you're saying this is acceptable? I still call it exploiting game mechanics.
I'm amazed at the amount of people in this thread who consider suicide as a normal, acceptable way to make ISK's
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Omuro Takeda
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:36:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Rekindle Read people , read.
I perfectly understand this is accepted game play...thats my point. The fact that non combat characters can't move their crap through safe space is grief at its very core.
1. You agree that killing people in high sec is accepted game play; 2. You then call it "grief at its very core"; 3. Comparing that to your statement about UO, where you label "killing people FOR THEIR STUFF" griefing aswell (which is actually called PKing), I can't help but see what you are telling us with this:
You, sir, are insulting every single, devoted to his cause pirate (PK or thiefe), calling him a low life griefer whose ingame occupation is to kill people for no reward or reason whatsoever - only to make them feel bad. Because griefing is exactly this:
Originally by: Elycion A griefer would blow you up just to cause you pain.
You are carrying stuff worth billions IN A HAULER? Wasn't there an easier way to label yourself with a "SHOOT HERE!" sign? A person who has played UO would know he couldn't feel safe anywhere when carrying stuff around - there were thieves in town who could have robbed you without you ever noticing in time. It's people like you that pirates are waiting and searching all their time for, and no, they don't give a **** about your time spent ingame to aquire all that stuff - "Take as much as you can, give nothing back!" I think describes it best
Then you decide to spit on the game, calling the great, free, AND DANGEROUS PvP system a "lame game mechanic", just because you have been played for being too carebear, flying around in a gold mine, thinking CONCORD insta-owns pirates/PKs like the guards did in UO.
Having spent almost two years in the game, you should have known better and never let anthing like this happen to you.
Quote: Rule #1 of mmorpg games - if you give players the option to grief they will use it.
If you want to make a massive multiplayer game work and not get the rep of being a game that is a griefer's play ground you need to close the gaps for grief play - not say its an accepted method.
Last time I checked, EVE was one of the few MMOs whitout serious gameplay restrictions, and we keep having more and more subscribers (meaning those who start are more than those who quit - figured out why?). People play EVE because the thrill of a dangerous virtual world died with UO pre-AOS.
PS: Stop calling piracy griefing, learn to adapt or find an easier MMO for you.
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:36:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir
Originally by: Rekindle See, there is dieing to a legit pvp encounter and there is dieing to cheap ass tactics. Tonight I encountered the latter and I put it in the same cateogory as logging out in combat, BM copying, and other less than prestigious "techniques" this game offers to augment pvp encounters.
You are right. Personally I consider all of those as bad game design, all of which could have been fixed if CCP would have decided to do so.
Lets consider a few things that could have been done.
1. Destroying a ship in Empire space
All involved characters should have their ship confiscated by concord, 33% of their empire equity from account (yes, from all alts) confiscated for the loss compensation, involved character slot locked out for 6 months and a -2 sec hit for each alt per each account involved.
2. Destroying a POD in Empire space
All involved parties should have their ship confiscated by concord, 66% of their empire equity from account (yes, from all alts) confiscated for the loss compensation, involved character slot locked out for 18 months and a -5 sec hit for each alt per each account involved.
Yes, that would mean that if you had 3 characters, of which one blows a ship up, you'd end up with two characters with 2/3 of their assets and no access to hi-sec. And your friend looting the stuff would be in the same mess.
Harsh? No. Kill a guy in RL get a 10 years of government paid food & apartment.
This however is a game. I can play the samaritan or the bad guy. Do not try to compare with real life. If we did that, the whole game it self would fall right through. Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:37:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Wolfways To me that is completely different to the player who exploits game mechanics to achieve a kill and/or loot at the expense of another player. I call that player a griefer.
(emphasis added) Prime example of someone who just doesn't understand the term.
Yeah sorry, i meant exploiter...but as i think neither griefers or exploiters should be allowed (much less encouraged) in games i tend to lump them together.
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:38:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir Ok, they made a mistake 20years ago. Lets repeat it.
Why is it a mistake?
Action 1: Steal item Action 2: Pass item to another player before guards arrive. Action 3: Get whacked by guards. Action 4: Recover item at later date.
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:38:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Wolfways
However, in Ultima, you could get theived in town. They would go grey, you could call the guards, they'd get instawhacked, but you wouldn't get your item back. He was smart enough to pass that item off to his buddy before dieing, or his buddy looted him and passed it to a 3rd guildmate, before he also got whacked. The person traded to never got whacked:) Sound familiar?
So you're saying this is acceptable? I still call it exploiting game mechanics.
I'm amazed at the amount of people in this thread who consider suicide as a normal, acceptable way to make ISK's
Its not normal. By far. But it can be done. Im amased at the number of posters who think that CCP is to blame for thier losses. Blame your attacker - its his fault. He did it. Oveur or Hammerhead did not.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:42:00 -
[190]
Quote: This however is a game. I can play the samaritan or the bad guy. Do not try to compare with real life. If we did that, the whole game it self would fall right through.
You got all the 0.0, low-sec and wardec to be a bad guy. --- Sell orders Recruitment
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar The Necroborg The Sani Sabik
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:43:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 07/11/2006 14:43:35
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote: Can you honestly say that 500 people in Jita, flying around with billions of ISK worth of cargo with absolutely no risk what-so-ever is what CCP envisioned?
Uhm, YES!
It's a freaking 1.0 trade hub!
What would you expect?
There is no such thing as zero crime. The game was designed in certain way to offer an amount of freedom and creativity. If someone is stupid enough to walk around central station with their wallet sticking out their back pocket they are bound to have it stolen. Why should Eve be any different?
Eve is unique and people play this game because of the way it was designed. There are plenty of dumbed down games on the market. Go play one of those if that's what you really want.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:43:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 14:44:45
Originally by: Tirg
Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 13:27:57 I'm comparing this to other games that have created consentual and non consentual zones of pvp encounters (well, well, well before WoW). In many games if you attack within the range of "guarded space" you get insta wacked. Eve has a similar system except its not sufficient enough to protect everyone, just people in certain ships.
However, in Ultima, you could get theived in town. They would go grey, you could call the guards, they'd get instawhacked, but you wouldn't get your item back. He was smart enough to pass that item off to his buddy before dieing, or his buddy looted him and passed it to a 3rd guildmate, before he also got whacked. The person traded to never got whacked:) Sound familiar?
If you got caught stealing the item it was returned as you got insta wacked. not to mention the fact theives have to grind for months to acquire their skills and that was the theiving skill not the ganking a ship at a .5 gate "skill". -------------------------------------------
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Tirg
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:46:00 -
[193]
My point is the OP was refering to UO as a consentual/non-consentual PvP game, with guards who instawhacked. If it didn't happen in a guard's sight, you had to call out for them. If you died before you called, the Pker got away clean. Thieves however, worked right in the bank square:) Maybe the OP forgot this point? I'm one of the carebears who moved to Trammel btw:) I just wished they had left Fel alone, rather than turn it into terror-town.
Now your sig is mine MUAHAHAHAHAHA - Xorus |
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Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:46:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Sendraks Why is it a mistake?
Action 1: Steal item Action 2: Pass item to another player before guards arrive. Action 3: Get whacked by guards. Action 4: Recover item at later date.
If that was an acceptable means of acquiring stuff, then doing it in real life would be ok. (Some do get away it, some do get send away for it)
In game terms, the item should just end up as "stolen". See a guard and get a insta-whack.
--- Sell orders Recruitment
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Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:47:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 07/11/2006 14:43:35
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote: Can you honestly say that 500 people in Jita, flying around with billions of ISK worth of cargo with absolutely no risk what-so-ever is what CCP envisioned?
Uhm, YES!
It's a freaking 1.0 trade hub!
What would you expect?
There is no such thing as zero crime. The game was designed in certain way to offer an amount of freedom and creativity. If someone is stupid enough to walk around central station with their wallet sticking out their back pocket they are bound to have it stolen. Why should Eve be any different?
Eve is unique and people play this game because of the way it was designed. There are plenty of dumbed down games on the market. Go play one of those if that's what you really want.
Freedom & creativity?
That's what you'd call suicide ganking?
Now I've heard it all.
By the way, more restrictions & penalties on the criminals is not going to eliminate suicide ganking, just make it much less prevalent. Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 07/11/2006 14:43:35
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote: Can you honestly say that 500 people in Jita, flying around with billions of ISK worth of cargo with absolutely no risk what-so-ever is what CCP envisioned?
Uhm, YES!
It's a freaking 1.0 trade hub!
What would you expect?
There is no such thing as zero crime. The game was designed in certain way to offer an amount of freedom and creativity. If someone is stupid enough to walk around central station with their wallet sticking out their back pocket they are bound to have it stolen. Why should Eve be any different?
Eve is unique and people play this game because of the way it was designed. There are plenty of dumbed down games on the market. Go play one of those if that's what you really want.
Yes you're right. If someone makes themself an easy target they are bound to be stolen from. But if the thief is caught in the act (say like Concord turning up while the aggressor is killing or looting) he is punished and the victim has his possessions returned. Why should EVE be any different?
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:51:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Bhaal Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Its allways been around you know... But more players = more crime. Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:53:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Tirg My point is the OP was refering to UO as a consentual/non-consentual PvP game, with guards who instawhacked. If it didn't happen in a guard's sight, you had to call out for them. If you died before you called, the Pker got away clean. Thieves however, worked right in the bank square:) Maybe the OP forgot this point? I'm one of the carebears who moved to Trammel btw:) I just wished they had left Fel alone, rather than turn it into terror-town.
That was changed so that if you stole anything in a guard zone half a dozen guards instantly teleported to you and whacked you.
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Futuri
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:54:00 -
[199]
Wow, this thead is alive and kickin'
Originally by: Rekindle
Piracy to me is something that happens in low sec/ zero sec systems. Empire space in high sec space, outside the paradigm of empire war, is a consentual pvp zone. You can not, normally, fire off on someone in empire without their consent (which gets implied when you gang them/flag off something etc).
a) Piracy can happen both in high sec and in low sec. In EVE, piracy means killing for profit, it has nothing to do with the security of the system. b) You can fire on anyone in EVE, anywhere, without their consent. Who told you otherwise?? Even the player guide says so, go read it.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:56:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir If that was an acceptable means of acquiring stuff, then doing it in real life would be ok. (Some do get away it, some do get send away for it)
Who says it is acceptable? It is just a sensible way of trying to ensure that in that setting, the goods you went to the trouble of stealing did not immediately get returned to their owner. If they did, that would ruin the concept of having "theif" as a profession.
Originally by: Steven Dynahir In game terms, the item should just end up as "stolen". See a guard and get a insta-whack.
I agree, but then, how do you go about getting the item back. Should the game have a process where the "owner" can pay a nominal sum so that the item can be identity tagged as being their's? How then, would the owner go about recovering said item without ruining the concept of the "theif" as a valid career choice without CCP implementing a load of stuff to enable thieves to combat this.
In the "real world" (tm) recovering stolen goods is not easy, not even if they have been tagged in some way by the owner. I would rather this were not the case in the real world and that stolen property could be easily returned.
However, in a game as open as Eve, people should be able to opt for the "thief" career path without being "instawhacked" every time they made a theft, providing of course the thefts are appropriately planned.
I would hate to have my property stolen by another Eve player, just as I would hate to have my property stolen in real life. Which is why I take precautions to ensure it doesn't happen in either setting. The difference is, in Eve, if someone steals from me after all my precautions, I really don't mind, because as a "Player" in a "Game" they made the effort to "win" that aspect of "the game" in order to steal from me.
In real life it would just **** me off.
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Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:58:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Originally by: Bhaal Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Its allways been around you know... But more players = more crime.
It has not always been around, 2 years ago it was virtually unheard of, griefers were too busy using JIP camping & other exploits...
As CCP has taken away one griefing method after another, these players move to the next easiest "tactic", the one that requires the least risk for most reward.
They simply need to pay more for their crime, there needs to be more deterrents. Calculating a known loss through a game mechanic to steal is not what I'd call free form profession, I'd call it bad game design...
------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
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Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:01:00 -
[202]
Originally by: James Duar And you reveal your purpose at last. You don't want to play a game with that sort of risk. To which I can add, as many others have, there are plenty of games like that. Go find one.
I've already revealed my purpose, but you seem to still look for it.
Should it be possibile? Yes Should it have some punitive measures? Yes
You take an alt, blow up a hauler and gain free iskies.
or
You blow up a hauler, gain isk, grind few hours a complex for secloss, rince & repeat.
There is no loss for such activity, thus there is no penalty. That is why people do it. For zero penalty free ISK. --- Sell orders Recruitment
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:02:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Bhaal
It has not always been around,
Wrong ;-) sorry man, but you are.
Originally by: Bhaal
2 years ago it was virtually unheard of, griefers were too busy using JIP camping & other exploits...
Indeed, it was unheard off. And yet... I heard of it as I started playing. Allmost 2 years ago. But as the number of players grow - so does this behaviour. As the number of mindless afk hauling alts with billions in cargobays increases - so does this behavior.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:05:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir
Originally by: James Duar And you reveal your purpose at last. You don't want to play a game with that sort of risk. To which I can add, as many others have, there are plenty of games like that. Go find one.
I've already revealed my purpose, but you seem to still look for it.
Should it be possibile? Yes Should it have some punitive measures? Yes
You take an alt, blow up a hauler and gain free iskies.
or
You blow up a hauler, gain isk, grind few hours a complex for secloss, rince & repeat.
There is no loss for such activity, thus there is no penalty. That is why people do it. For zero penalty free ISK.
Yes but by the logic you're applying, you didn't really use anything did you? I mean, you lose your stuff, grind a few hours ratting or in a Lvl 4 or mining, and buy all your stuff again. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:06:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Bhaal on 07/11/2006 15:07:52
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Originally by: Bhaal
It has not always been around,
Wrong ;-) sorry man, but you are.
Originally by: Bhaal
2 years ago it was virtually unheard of, griefers were too busy using JIP camping & other exploits...
Indeed, it was unheard off. And yet... I heard of it as I started playing. Allmost 2 years ago. But as the number of players grow - so does this behaviour. As the number of mindless afk hauling alts with billions in cargobays increases - so does this behavior.
Yes, the behavior grows because it's a tactic that is out of control, and many wannabe pirates see it as an easier way to make ISK than any other form of "piracy"
Broken...
If you can't see it's broken, you're blind, just like those who don't see it as griefing...
In one form or another, this tactic will be forced to change by CCP, we'll just have to have patience... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:07:00 -
[206]
Quote: Who says it is acceptable? It is just a sensible way of trying to ensure that in that setting, the goods you went to the trouble of stealing did not immediately get returned to their owner. If they did, that would ruin the concept of having "theif" as a profession.
lol, what a weird concept. Ever consider not getting caught?
Let's look at reality. You get caught, you don't profit and are punished. The vicctim has most, if not all his possessions returned if possible. You don't get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything.
In EVE. You get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything. You don't get caught, you profit. The victim loses everything.
Why can't people see this?
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Omuro Takeda
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:14:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Bhaal Freedom & creativity?
That's what you'd call suicide ganking?
Now I've heard it all.
By the way, more restrictions & penalties on the criminals is not going to eliminate suicide ganking, just make it much less prevalent. Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Giving a player the choice to try and blow up somebody else in what seems secure space, with a 100% chance of him loosing his ship - THAT's called freedom, yeah. Figuring out how to profit from it is the creative part.
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Bhaal
Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:16:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Bhaal on 07/11/2006 15:18:45
Originally by: Omuro Takeda
Originally by: Bhaal Freedom & creativity?
That's what you'd call suicide ganking?
Now I've heard it all.
By the way, more restrictions & penalties on the criminals is not going to eliminate suicide ganking, just make it much less prevalent. Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Giving a player the choice to try and blow up somebody else in what seems secure space, with a 100% chance of him loosing his ship - THAT's called freedom, yeah. Figuring out how to profit from it is the creative part.
Using an alt to loot & circumvent the system put in place by CCP is not creative, it's an exploit...
If it's so **** creative, why don't you and your buddy go down to the local bank & try it.
Make sure the cops see you holding the money bag.
Then come back and tell us all how creative that is. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:17:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Omuro Takeda
Originally by: Bhaal Freedom & creativity?
That's what you'd call suicide ganking?
Now I've heard it all.
By the way, more restrictions & penalties on the criminals is not going to eliminate suicide ganking, just make it much less prevalent. Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Giving a player the choice to try and blow up somebody else in what seems secure space, with a 100% chance of him loosing his ship - THAT's called freedom, yeah. Figuring out how to profit from it is the creative part.
Figuring out how to exploit the game mechanics is just being creative eh?
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Hellspawn01
Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:25:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Bhaal
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Originally by: Bhaal Right now it's the flavor of the month piracy, you call that freedom?
Its allways been around you know... But more players = more crime.
It has not always been around, 2 years ago it was virtually unheard of, griefers were too busy using JIP camping & other exploits...
As CCP has taken away one griefing method after another, these players move to the next easiest "tactic", the one that requires the least risk for most reward.
They simply need to pay more for their crime, there needs to be more deterrents. Calculating a known loss through a game mechanic to steal is not what I'd call free form profession, I'd call it bad game design...
Agreed. Getting insurance after getting blown away by concord for ganking a hauler in high sec is just wrong. Crime pays #1. Have an alt pick up both cans without consequences is also wrong. Crime pays #2.
Ship lovers click here |
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