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I've never played a game that cators to grief play as much as this one

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IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:57:00 - [301] Originally by: Bhaal So because my opinion is different than yours, I'm of lesser intelligence? Sure, ok You don't have an opinion, Bhaal. You have an agenda. Two different things..
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:59:00 - [302] I'm sorry but I don't agree that CCP needs to change the game enough to account for the actions of every stupid, lazy moron. There has to be a balance of rules and intelligent play. I think there is a good a balance now. Suicide alting is much less lucritive and more skill intensive than it used to be. You used to only need a Kestrel with cruise missiles. Now it usually takes at least a T3/4 cruiser, which means you really have to run into someone that is pretty stupid to make any money. Agreed, The only diffrence between someone who hauled there high end gear and got there, and someone who hauled there high end gear and got owned in <0.5 space, is ... Someone was lucky enough to catch the hauler flyer when he made the mistake of undocking in the hauler with that much Isk in the cargo bay. It's not lame tactic, it's not a Exploit it's a mistake made by the hauler and someone caught him/her out. The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:01:00 - [303] Originally by: Bhaal So because my opinion is different than yours, I'm of lesser intelligence? No, it's because I can argue against your points with historical facts, evidence and sane analogies. All you can do is say "PK'ers are bad!"
Osia Gallente Astrum Contract Services Group	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:05:00 - [304] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to make it a whole lot harder to do, they need to make it as hard as they plan to make invention... I'm sorry but I don't agree that CCP needs to change the game enough to account for the actions of every stupid, lazy moron. There has to be a balance of rules and intelligent play. I think there is a good a balance now. Suicide alting is much less lucritive and more skill intensive than it used to be. You used to only need a Kestrel with cruise missiles. Now it usually takes at least a T3/4 cruiser, which means you really have to run into someone that is pretty stupid to make any money. One of the keys though is no matter how big the Tech I ship needed to conduct the business of suicide attacks insurance payout will cover 95% of the cost. This is simple fact. As a result of this fact suicide attacks are trivial to execute and incur almost no loss to the attacker. At best the attacker simply must wait 15 minutes before continuing to ply his trade. Thus I ask what was the point of the attacker's ship loss? In fact I would go farther and ask why bother with security rating for systems? The current system suggests anything but balance. --- Logistics XO, Astrum Contract Services Group
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:08:00 - [305] Edited by: Bhaal on 07/11/2006 21:08:50 Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Bhaal So because my opinion is different than yours, I'm of lesser intelligence? No, it's because I can argue against your points with historical facts, evidence and sane analogies. All you can do is say "PK'ers are bad!" I have viewed many things in EVE as being bad for the game over the years, and I've had countless ppl like you telling me how wrong my viewpoint is/was. However I'm happy with a lot of the changes I have seen CCP make in relation to those "bad things" So I'm going to keep expressing my opinions... IMO PK'ers are bad for an MMO, PvP'ers are not... Suicide gankers are PK'ers. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:09:00 - [306] There playing the game how they see fit, making isk off other players mistakes, no diffrent to Escrow scammers or that Lofty guy. The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:10:00 - [307] Hey guys, The way i see both sides at least so far, is that 1. One side says: Make it very hard if not impossible to suicide gank people in high sec, b/c it's high sec, 2. The other side saying: You n00b, this is your own fault, it's your fault for being incompetent/lazy/unprepared, etc, because you get killed. The truth of the matter is I guess to find a way for people to have the following work together: 1. Keep people from shooting anything with a slightly larger profit margin than their loss, just because you get "some profit" 2. Make people use common sense and reason when transporting something of high value. What the problem is for people making point 1 is that if even the guy was in a T2 barge (in the above situation)he/she would have died anyhow, and that that shouldn't be allowed, not at least in high sec. The problem to people making statement #2, is that if they have been more careful and used the proper caution and all means available in Eve, they could easily escaped that situation. After the above said... IMHO High sec should be secure enough so that people that have taken all precautions, i.e, run scouts, and found nothing suspicious/have a T2 barge to use/used a BS or a Command to transfer the goods, and do not fall asleep while "driving" should not suffer the fate of the OP. The problem I guess is that even if that is the case, i.e. taking all precautions for people to still scan you and arrange a group to take you out. The solutions IMO? There should be deterrents that prevent small to med sized (i.e. 10-50mil) margins yields from such operations. And if a person such as the OP are in a position where they risk "all they have" i.e. i assume worth along the lines of several hundred to a bil ISK, they should take even extra precautions to avoid the fate the OP had. If they do not do that, the suicide gankers should still have their way. Although because of the deterrents and the extra precautinos by players, suicide gankers should have been discouraged to the point where it would be utterly dull to scan ships all day and find either no good loot ships, or good well armored ships in gangs, or with escorts, that prevents them from using their tactic. sorry for the long post
eLusi0n Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:11:00 - [308] Edited by: eLusi0n on 07/11/2006 21:12:36 LOL, owned. /agree Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 07/11/2006 16:24:48 Originally by: Rekindle What is more lame is that there is a subset of the community that think this is what pvp is. Piracy /= PvP. Lame is not realizing that. Attacking the inexperienced and deffenseless (or lazy and stupid in this case) to take their assets is not griefing, it's smart piracy.
Osia Gallente Astrum Contract Services Group	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:12:00 - [309] Originally by: Ki An T2 haulers are not "required" per se. However, if you plan to carry so much cargo as to make suiciding you actually worth while (Simple maths really. Just figure the value of the total amount of ships required to one-volley your ship, subtract insurance payout for those ships, multiply by two to take account of stuff blowing up and you have a nice figure to keep under) you are better off by ferrying it in a tough, tanked ship (think armored car). /Ki Based on my experience in game, and the experience shared in suggestions in this thread alone there seems to be strong evidence that T2 transports are required in today's EVE. Simply put, with insurance for ship losses to Concord I wouldn't need to carry more than 5% of the worth of each of the ships involved in the attack for the attacker to make a profit. When tech I ships are being used for the attack that sum is relatively small. Thus the number of attacks of this fasion is extremely high. --- Logistics XO, Astrum Contract Services Group
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:23:00 - [310] Originally by: Osia One of the keys though is no matter how big the Tech I ship needed to conduct the business of suicide attacks insurance payout will cover 95% of the cost. I agree with you and don't have a real argument against payouts not being made to people killed by CONCORD. This'll probably hurt as many newbs as it protects, however. I can't tell you how many newbs have accidentally activated a module like a smartbomb or ecm burst in empire simply by mistake and lost their ship. But you see I'm pretty much against rules designed to protect people from being stupid, in life and in Eve, especially when these rules infringe on the joy/comfort of others who are intelligent and responsible.

Ki An Gallente Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:41:00 - [311] Originally by: Osia Based on my experience in game, and the experience shared in suggestions in this thread alone there seems to be strong evidence that T2 transports are required in today's EVE. Simply put, with insurance for ship losses to Concord I wouldn't need to carry more than 5% of the worth of each of the ships involved in the attack for the attacker to make a profit. When tech I ships are being used for the attack that sum is relatively small. Thus the number of attacks of this fasion is extremely high. While this is true to a certain extent, there are a few factors that prevent every hauler in high-sec from falling victim to this kind of attack. 1. The gankers can't be certain that all - or even half - of the cargo survives the attack. Thus, they tend to go for extremely rich loads, more or less guaranteeing a profit. - Solution, carry less per load. 2. Mods used for this kind of attack must be taken into account as well, as not all of them will survive the attack. I did not include them in my little count-up above, but I should have. I don't know the sum-total of the mods required for a suicide attack, but I'm guessing that for a BS they would be in the region of 5 million. 3. A well tanked T1 hauler can withstand attack for some time. A Iteron V with crap skills have over 1000 armor hitpoints, not counting shields or structure. To insta-pop this a massive amount of force is required. Fit a couple of passive hardeners instead of expanders and there is no way for the gankers to guarantee a kill. These three, as I can see it, are the main reasons suicide-ganking is not that common (in which I mean it happens to a fraction of the playerbase, and that fraction is pretty low). If more people would concider these points, suicide ganking would drop dramatically, as the pirates doing this are almost as lazy as their victims, and will not pursue a cause of action that does not guarantee profit. There is also the issue of a sec-drop as penalty for these attacks. It may be argued that these pirates use disposable alt to minimize the effects of sec-drop, but I have yet to see any evidence for this, and if anyone knows of such an occurence, feel free to petition it as it is an exploit to use disposable alts. /Ki
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:55:00 - [312] Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 21:58:18 Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 21:56:06 no more " you stupid idiot you flew an iteron in empire space" responses are required - we're beyond that No more " you should have had module x" fitted - we're beyond that too I was not in .4 space, i was not in 0.0 space, I was attacked and I had no recourse once concord killed them. I dont debate that this is a tactic and I should have known better but taht does not digress from teh fact it was UTTERLY LAME and CHEAP and I'm not afriad to stand up agasinst all the pvp wananbes to say it. Real pvp'rs are off pvp'ing anyway. This issue is best put by Bhaal. This tactic allows you to stand by a guard kill someone and loot thier crap right in front of them. If that is not grief play then wth is? To anyone who is afraid this game will turn into WoW if it forces you to play a balanced and fair game let me buy you a tin foil hat. I think half the people that proport to be pvp'rs are just griefers in sheeps clothing anyway. PvP is a dieing art and is being contaminated with grief tactics and grief players who dont have a pair big enough to play on even playing fields....this is why people are left resorting to tactics like sitting on a gate in jita drooling like a dog just waiting at teh chance to abuse a game mechanic for their benefit. I dont expect to make many friends with my opinions, I found that this community is generally made up of very hostile people anyway. When you boil down this issue to the reality of the situation yes i shoudl have known better but thats not really my point anymore. -------------------------------------------
Lord Dynastron	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:03:00 - [313] I knew something felt wrong abou this whole topic,,, and it took me a little while over lunch to think it thru..... This is NOT suicide bombing at all! Your pod is not destroyed, only your ship. No,,, what we have here are (in the case of a Raven) a 30million isk missle. So, in reality, you are allowed to fire 30 million isk doomsday missles in High-Sec space with ZERO reprocussions!!! Simple as that.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:20:00 - [314] Originally by: Lord Dynastron I knew something felt wrong abou this whole topic,,, and it took me a little while over lunch to think it thru..... This is NOT suicide bombing at all! Your pod is not destroyed, only your ship. No,,, what we have here are (in the case of a Raven) a 30million isk missle. So, in reality, you are allowed to fire 30 million isk doomsday missles in High-Sec space with ZERO reprocussions!!! Simple as that. Exactly and that is why this should be corrected, the fact you can find out in advance by scanning the cargo to know pretty much what you will recover for your 30 mill doomsday missle makes it even worse. It is exploiting game mechanics to do something you really are not supposed to do, otherwise concord wouldnt attack people who agressed in empire to start with.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:20:00 - [315] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Originally by: Sendraks Why can't you fly a ship that can withstand the attacks of suicide bombers? Well, it has to be said I think he messed up badly by not having his stuff in a decent ship I can't believe how people can honestly say that. Haulers are made for empire, transporters are made for low-sec/0.0. (period). We're talking about a heavily abused design flaw, nothing less nothing more. Yes suicide ganking someone is designed, suicide ganking someone with a trial account and picking up the loot with your main/hauler without any risk whatsoever is not. It's not even PvP, it's a griefers PvE dream, yes that's right PvE. Where is the risk for the so-called pirate? There isn't. Where is the versus part in the PvP, there isn't, hence we're talking looting players where they shouldn't be looted. Mind you it's not the ship destruction that's the issue, it's the ability to loot them without consequence that is the issue. May as well remove Concord all together. I bet plenty of people have quit because of this. IMHO the issue lays with the devs actually taking pride in the controversy that this kind of griefing causes, and therefor not seeing this as a priority to fix (if they want to fix it; that is if they even want to fix it). For the record I have never been ganked like that myself. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:27:00 - [316] In EVE, and in life, there are the greifers, the gankers, those who look out for themselves and further themselves any way possible, then there are the born victims. People like my good self are the former, people like you are the latter and thinking the way you do, you always be a victim. So you got your ** ** up? No one is to blame but you, except you can't bring yourself to place that blame smack bang on your head. One of the main attractions of EVE for most people I've talked to is that the game and the developers don't hold your hand and kiss your arse better when it gets kicked. So you lost everything you've owned after playing? Who cares? Why make a thread about it? Move on or quit the game, if you don't like the way EVE works then simply don't play the game. People like you sometimes make me think you get yourself killed in these ways just so you can get all uppity and self righteous. Quote: You should have outfitted module X,Y and Z to avoid such ganks. Again, this is like saying you should put on a radiation suit to avoid the nuclear testing in your back yard: Just because its happening doesn't mean you have to automatically accept it. You wouldn't HAVE to put on a radiation suit if there was nuclear testing in your back yard, just like you wouldn't HAVE to fit an MWD or Nanos or WCS or a tank or whatever to avoid being ganked. Doesn't change the fact that not doing either still results in you dying though. At the end of the day, people will do whatever they want. Suicide ganking might be changed it might not so you either have to adapt to what other people do or get screwed over by them and no matter how many times you scream that your own straight up refusal to protect yourself is everyone else's fault but your own, you have to (sorry to bring out the old chestnut) ADAPT OR DIE. Oh and also: STOP WHINING Originally by:** Rekindle I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything I own.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:28:00 - [317] Here's something the devs should be able to relate to... People enjoy pvp and pve. People, for the most part, accept that if they die in pvp (or lose a ship) they will lose resources (ISK) and property to the winner. There are people here who say EVE is 100% pvp, then run off to kill npc's to make ISK's. EVE is partly pve. There are a lot more pve players willing to get into pvp than most pvp players think, but what puts them off is not the thought of losing ships or ISK's, it is the random killing by pk's. Devs, why did Fel die off? Because Tram came out. Why is there a Tram? Because players were sick of being randomly killed by pk's. Were they sick of pvp? No, because they created guilds in Tram and fought all the time. It is pk's that drive players away from pvp. Stop pk's and i'll guarantee that low-sec will see more players. ...IMO Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:32:00 - [318] Originally by: Alowishus I think some of you should quit Eve and play a different game. You don't join a basketball game and complain when it's not football, do you? But we would complain if we'd play a basketball game where the other team doesn't have a basket, and that Sir is the issue. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:36:00 - [319] Originally by: Ikvar So you lost everything you've owned after playing? Who cares? Why make a thread about it? Move on or quit the game, if you don't like the way EVE works then simply don't play the game. People like you sometimes make me think you get yourself killed in these ways just so you can get all uppity and self righteous. Whos being sell rigteous here? I'm pointing out an obvious flaw in game mechanics which you rebute by flames and insults. -------------------------------------------
Arii Smith	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:36:00 - [320] Danger is fun. Case closed.

Arii Smith	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:37:00 - [321] Originally by: Rekindle Originally by: Ikvar So you lost everything you've owned after playing? Who cares? Why make a thread about it? Move on or quit the game, if you don't like the way EVE works then simply don't play the game. People like you sometimes make me think you get yourself killed in these ways just so you can get all uppity and self righteous. Whos being sell rigteous here? I'm pointing out an obvious flaw in game mechanics which you rebute by flames and insults. You dolt, it is NOT an obvious flaw in the game mechanics that is what everyone is arguing about. It is obvious to me that it is NOT a flaw, and obvious to you that it IS a flaw. Do you see why people are talking in this thread now?
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:38:00 - [322] They take a sec hit for doing so. While not much they still take one. The hauler has more options to avoid them, then they do of attacking the hauler. Secure space is not 100% secure, it never should be. The guy who loots the cans after, I think he gets can flagged and you have kill rights on him but i'm not 100% sure on that. It's almost a "I quit Eve" option for players that lose everything to one of these, however even the smallest bit of thinking and planning it's 90-100% easy to avoid. I don't mean any offense by saying that. The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Lord Dynastron	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:39:00 - [323] Originally by: Arii Smith Danger is fun. Case closed. You would think this would be a very popular epitaph
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:44:00 - [324] I said; leave the frickin' monkey! Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:46:00 - [325] Originally by: Lord Dynastron Originally by: Arii Smith Danger is fun. Case closed. You would think this would be a very popular epitaph Good one! Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:47:00 - [326] Originally by: Arii Smith You dolt, it is NOT an obvious flaw in the game mechanics that is what everyone is arguing about. It is obvious to me that it is NOT a flaw, and obvious to you that it IS a flaw. Do you see why people are talking in this thread now? Yeah its called an opinion, a perspective, a point of view. one of us is capable of forming a thought without degrading into personal attacks on the other. Anyway, this thread is running its course. Tehre IS an issue and it is a FLAw in the game mechanics that allows this to happen its obvious by the consequences. nn all. -------------------------------------------
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:47:00 - [327] Originally by: Rekindle no more " you stupid idiot you flew an iteron in empire space" responses are required - we're beyond that No more " you should have had module x" fitted - we're beyond that too I was not in .4 space, i was not in 0.0 space, I was attacked and I had no recourse once concord killed them. I dont debate that this is a tactic and I should have known better but taht does not digress from teh fact it was UTTERLY LAME and CHEAP and I'm not afriad to stand up agasinst all the pvp wananbes to say it. Real pvp'rs are off pvp'ing anyway. This issue is best put by Bhaal. This tactic allows you to stand by a guard kill someone and loot thier crap right in front of them. If that is not grief play then wth is? To anyone who is afraid this game will turn into WoW if it forces you to play a balanced and fair game let me buy you a tin foil hat. I think half the people that proport to be pvp'rs are just griefers in sheeps clothing anyway. PvP is a dieing art and is being contaminated with grief tactics and grief players who dont have a pair big enough to play on even playing fields....this is why people are left resorting to tactics like sitting on a gate in jita drooling like a dog just waiting at teh chance to abuse a game mechanic for their benefit. I dont expect to make many friends with my opinions, I found that this community is generally made up of very hostile people anyway. When you boil down this issue to the reality of the situation yes i shoudl have known better but thats not really my point anymore. You're saying piracy is griefing. Maybe piracy does cause you grief but it is an intended part of the game. Griefing as most people know it is something else entirely. Griefing in MMORPGs is something one does only to cause people grief. These people may have caused you grief, but they also stole your stuff. That makes it piracy. If they blew you up for no reason at all and didn't collect your loot, that's griefing. Otherwise it's piracy, and if you don't like piracy then don't play Eve. Additionally only CCP states what is an exploit of game mechanics. Not you. As of now, this is not an exploit. This is using two paid accounts to commit an act of piracy. Just because you disagree with the tactic does not make it wrong or invalid, and it certainly doesn't make it an exploit. And lastly, ffs quit your whining.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:48:00 - [328] Edited by: DrAtomic on 07/11/2006 22:50:10 Originally by: Arii Smith Originally by: Rekindle Originally by: Ikvar So you lost everything you've owned after playing? Who cares? Why make a thread about it? Move on or quit the game, if you don't like the way EVE works then simply don't play the game. People like you sometimes make me think you get yourself killed in these ways just so you can get all uppity and self righteous. Whos being sell rigteous here? I'm pointing out an obvious flaw in game mechanics which you rebute by flames and insults. You dolt, it is NOT an obvious flaw in the game mechanics that is what everyone is arguing about. It is obvious to me that it is NOT a flaw, and obvious to you that it IS a flaw. Do you see why people are talking in this thread now? If it's not an obvious flaw in the game then why is Concord there? Why does Concord whack the offender into oblivion? You are saying it was designed so that Concord whacks the offender giving people living in 0.0 a false sense of security (even being told so in the tutorial) all to reach the designed use of a scoop up alt on a trial account? Next thing you'll be claiming that haulers are made of paper because of the exact same reason. /hands out tin-foil hat. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:50:00 - [329] Originally by: Rekindle Originally by: Arii Smith You dolt, it is NOT an obvious flaw in the game mechanics that is what everyone is arguing about. It is obvious to me that it is NOT a flaw, and obvious to you that it IS a flaw. Do you see why people are talking in this thread now? Yeah its called an opinion, a perspective, a point of view. one of us is capable of forming a thought without degrading into personal attacks on the other. Anyway, this thread is running its course. Tehre IS an issue and it is a FLAw in the game mechanics that allows this to happen its obvious by the consequences. nn all. You lost everything because they used an item thats seeded by the game NPC market, looked at your unhidden cargo in your weak ship and went.... Hey we can kill that guy and make us some nice profit for a sec hit.... I'm sorry but how the HELL is that a flaw in the game mechanics ?. The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Rekindle	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:51:00 - [330] Edited by: Rekindle on 07/11/2006 22:52:24 Originally by: Alowishus [:roll: You're saying piracy is griefing. Maybe piracy does cause you grief but it is an intended part of the game. And lastly, ffs quit your whining. That is exactly what I am Not saying. Thanks for putting words into my mouth but I have had many brushes with pirates and im not against that form of game play whatsoever. We just have differing view on what" piracy" is and what risk vs reward is. Saying this is piracy is saying logging in /out during fleet ops is uber pvp. Give your head a shake man! -------------------------------------------



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