Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?

Weren't pretty much ALL of those videos showing solo battleships taking on larger numbers of ships?
I know the one with the Armageddon was all about it.
There were others as well.

I know you don't like the videos, but they are quite literally proof that counters many of the statements you made.
To say that they are not relevant to the discussion is simply false.
It's not unmanly to admit to having been in error.

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We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.

The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.


It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.

My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.

Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?

Videos are a very good evidence on how things works. The only reason you don't like to see the videos as evidences is because you know we can give tons after tons with video evidences that pretty much invalidates your arguments here.

But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.

Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.

We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.

The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.


It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.

My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.

Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?

Did read OP.
Subsequently read 13 more pages of arguments and evidence to the contrary.
Watched goalposts shuffle around a bit.

As far as risk, as pointed out above a T3 is gonna run you a great deal more than a BS that's T2 fitted. Actually, a well fit HAC/HIC will too generally.

Hitting smaller ships... I routinely attempt to provoke BS pilots into aggressing my assault frigate. Sometimes they do. Someday I hope you also get to experience the joy of having precision cruise missiles that are backed with rigors and a target painter absolutely shred your speed/sig tanked AF. It was an eye opener for me, and I was rocking a full set of mid-grade halos at the time.

I have a strange feeling that the rapid heavy/target painter/rigor combo must feel somewhat similar to cruisers. Battlecruisers will likely have little time to savor the experience. And those are just the missile boats...
I wont go into the living nightmare that drone boats bring to the field.

And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal

Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.

Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
By your own numbers the battleships lose because they fire slower. In addition, they have to target the T3 first. All of that would leave the battleships vulnerable. EVE battles are too complex for this kind of on paper play.

I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal

Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank.

Alpha fleet: Removed t3 cruisers every volley, primary doctrine for several years, losses per fight were as low as zero while the enemy cruiser fleets suffered total losses.

Baltec Fleet: Also alpha'ed its way through everything not a battleship.

Domi Fleet: Currently the primary doctrine, rips its way through t3 fleets like a knife through butter.

Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy.

More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships.

thank you for sharing that deep and significant observation! I never would have guessed that there would be trade offs between different ship classes. I don't even know how I will use this profound new idea. My whole vision of eve has been flipped upside down. A rifter has a sig radius of 35m, where a raven has a sig of 410m. Not to mention the rifter is much faster! those are some pretty interesting advantages!

I will take these new ideas and think of new roles that smaller ships are better at than larger ships, and at the same time larger ships will be better at some things than smaller ships! Its almost as if it was by design

More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships.

Is it best fitted with reps or plates? What can it be used for? Solo? Bait? WHs? Ratting?

Ehm ok. Did you know that Dreads have 'significant advantages' over Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Battleships when it comes to shooting POS'es and stations?

The simple fact is that you can't say that smaller ships have advantages over biggers ships and then makes us believe that Battleships are worser than smaller ships at everything as there are 1 million ways you can use a Battleship that have way more advantages over smaller ships.

Facts 101.

Yes, i have something i can say about this as i have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i have experience in flying all types of ships up to Marauders / Battleships.

Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship.

We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things.

Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned.

Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships.

Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong?

A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers.

Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?

I understand EVE Online very well.

Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships.

Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?

Well, i hardly believes that as you are a 2011 character while i'm a 2004 character. I do understand how the ships works in every possible scenarios while you still have a loooooong long way left to get up to the experience level as i have about flying Battleships. I have Been flying Battleships since the middle of 2005. Heck, even all of my PVP videos where i fly my own ships from EVE is Battleships only to.


What about the 2x Vagabonds and 1x Hurricane that attacked me in my Vindicator in Perimeter where all died in 1 minute to me (yeah, you find those kills on my killboard aswell)?

Wasn't i supposed to die here as Cruisers and Battlecruisers are so much better than Battleships?

I had 80% armor left when they all was dead. The bottom line is, Battleships are totally fine if you have brain to use them correctly.

And this is not about what dies to what. It's all about what is the best ship for the job you are going to do. I can take my Vargur (that i currently have) and put it up against a 15 man Cruiser fleet. Who do you think will win here if they are just a normal t1 cruiser fleet roaming around that want to kill stuffs?


I fly Battleships 95% of the times i use a ship. I'm heavily specialized in using Battleships. And i have been highly specialized in Battleships since 2008, but have been using Battleships since middle of 2005.