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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
   |
Posted - 2015.05.13 02:43:22 -
[1] - Quote
Anyone who has ever flown a battleship in the EVE Universe, will understand what I mean when I say they are the most riskiest thing to fly with the least amount of reward. Pilots of battleships are flying a slow moving, inaccurate glass cannon(even when properly T2/faction fit.) Pilots of almost every other combat ship class can survive better than a battleship. As it stands now battleships are an under classed vessel that is surely loosing it's place in the game.
The first reason why battleships are worthless is, they have the most trouble hitting targets. Since the game is based on smaller+faster = miss to larger guns, Battleships carrying the largest guns miss everything smaller than it. Now players can manipulate fittings and rigs to make it easier to hit a smaller ships, but no amount of fittings will make a battleship efficient at hitting small targets.
Second, battleships move slow. Some would argue that a larger(mass) ship should move slower, and they are correct. But using this methodology, a ship that is 100x more massive, has only 17x times more armor. Now why would things scale so differently in armor? Because, the game designers want battleships to die to smaller ships. This quote from Evelopedia: "Smaller swarms of ships are able to overwhelm the battleships systems and larger capitol ships with sufficient tracking can be accurate enough to cause quite serious damage, ..." The truth is that, any smaller combat ship can destroy a battleship, and they are designed to be destroyed by larger capital ships too.
Battleships now have the role of PVE combat ships now as in PVP they are liabilities. Don't waste your skill points. As the thousands of skill points wasted on battleships would be better spent in cruiser or other skills. |
Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
34
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 03:59:07 -
[2] - Quote
I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 04:24:08 -
[3] - Quote
Good day for a good Man.
I still belive in a statement that there are no bad ships but a lot of pilots who can't fly those well.
A gang of frigs could catch and take down a lonely battleship. True.
A gang of battleships could catch and take down a lonely frig. False?
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 04:30:36 -
[4] - Quote
Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I wish I had you wisdom before injecting the skill.
btw here are some discussions concerning BC/T2/T3 for lvl 4's :https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=480792
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3419280
sounds like they work well enough. |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
464
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 05:22:53 -
[5] - Quote
Battleships are very, very, very, very Important in the current Wormhole meta and are a must have train to at least level 1.
(we use them to collapse wormholes)
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 05:26:24 -
[6] - Quote
Iyokus Patrouette wrote:Battleships are very, very, very, very Important in the current Wormhole meta and are a must have train to at least level 1.
(we use them to collapse wormholes)
You bring up another interesting point in that they are discriminated against by certain areas of game play.
Thank you for your contribution. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1004
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:07:13 -
[7] - Quote
So, the real question is:
What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls. |
Klaus Tylar
Tylar United Freight
93
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:17:53 -
[8] - Quote
Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:30:02 -
[9] - Quote
Klaus Tylar wrote:Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable.
So a battleship is like using a shoe when a hammer is not around? The obvious instrument for bashing structures is the dread. |
Klaus Tylar
Tylar United Freight
93
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:33:27 -
[10] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Klaus Tylar wrote:Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable. So a battleship is like using a shoe when a hammer is not around? The obvious instrument for bashing structures is the dread.
Two key words in my post you seemed to have missed; 'inaccessible or undesirable'. So... Basically, people faffing about with POCOs and POSes in highsec. I'd also like to argue against your analogy and offer a different one- Why use a sword if a dagger will suffice? |
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Traejun DiSanctis
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:33:38 -
[11] - Quote
As it stands, and with few exceptions, battleships are PvE boats. End of story. As the contributions above suggest, Battleship value in PvE is pretty much relegated to structure bashing and perhaps some niche fleets (supercap killing?). But, for L4's, the 2 best ships I can think of are battleships - Machariel and Rattlesnake. That is their most well-suited role, high end PvE. Sure, you can do L4's in a Tengu or a Gila, but I can do it faster in a Mach or 'Snake. Given the PvE is purely a money-making endeavor, efficiency is king. Those BB's will do it more efficiently in almost all respects - the only exception to that being blitzing, at which point you go get a T3 for the speed.
Let's also not forget Incursions - where the Nightmare is king.
That said, I do wish Battleships had a bigger role in the game. Certainly more than the niche role it seems to have. Unfortunately, given the cost of buying/fitting and the immense amount of skill training required to fit them properly, they are unlikely to play a bigger role in PvP at this time. Maybe ever. As for PvE, their place is secure and unlikely to be obsoleted any time soon.
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Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
400
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:45:15 -
[12] - Quote
Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo.
When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else.
Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk.
If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one.
Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'.
In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V.
And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly.
Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task.
But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks. |
Valkin Mordirc
974
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:46:09 -
[13] - Quote
There are a lot of uses for Battleships then what you are eluding to,
Yes they do need tweaked, I'll agree to that. BUT they all have very good uses. I'll cover what I know,
Domi's and Geddons make for great POS bashers. The Spider RR tank they can field is more then enough to handle defending gangs and the POS weapons systems.
Any RHML fitted battleship with wreck small cruiser gangs,
Ravens ARE the PVE boats,
Hype's are good DPS ships in small local repped defending fleets.
The Mega is a very good gank ship, a good fleet ship, and overall a very well balanced BS
The 90% web Vindi can easily take out smaller targets.
A Shield Mach is a war machine.
The Bhaal is irreplaceable in Wormhole Defensive fleets, and anti-cap roles.
The Nestor is a mini-carrier and reps just about as much as full blown carrier.
The Rattlesnake can dish out some HEAVY Dps with it's drones.
The Navy Mega is a slightly better Mega,
The Navy Domi can get upwards of like 1700DPS so it very easy to gank with.
Scorp Navy issue is a shield brick.
Like really. They hav uses. Saying that they are not important to have at least one of these ships is limiting yourself.
The Battleships that have problems, Are the Rokh which is outperformed by the Naga. The Scorpion which is outperformed by the Rook and Falcon, And I've personally haven't had the chance to mess around with the Matar battleships, so I can't go into that.
But what I'm trying to say is. They are not as bad as you say they are.
EDIT: Also Judging by the Typhoon you lost, I really don't think you have any idea how to fly Battleships to begin with.
EDIT2: And the Tempest.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 06:55:07 -
[14] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.
For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov. |
Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
400
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:29:45 -
[15] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks. For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov.
The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps.
That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed.
If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre?
NOT worth the SP.
And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes.
Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes.
Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/ |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:36:35 -
[16] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:There are a lot of uses for Battleships then what you are eluding to,
Yes they do need tweaked, I'll agree to that. BUT they all have very good uses. I'll cover what I know,
Domi's and Geddons make for great POS bashers. The Spider RR tank they can field is more then enough to handle defending gangs and the POS weapons systems.
Any RHML fitted battleship with wreck small cruiser gangs,
Ravens ARE the PVE boats,
Hype's are good DPS ships in small local repped defending fleets.
The Mega is a very good gank ship, a good fleet ship, and overall a very well balanced BS
The 90% web Vindi can easily take out smaller targets.
A Shield Mach is a war machine.
The Bhaal is irreplaceable in Wormhole Defensive fleets, and anti-cap roles.
The Nestor is a mini-carrier and reps just about as much as full blown carrier.
The Rattlesnake can dish out some HEAVY Dps with it's drones.
The Navy Mega is a slightly better Mega,
The Navy Domi can get upwards of like 1700DPS so it very easy to gank with.
Scorp Navy issue is a shield brick.
Like really. They hav uses. Saying that they are not important to have at least one of these ships is limiting yourself.
The Battleships that have problems, Are the Rokh which is outperformed by the Naga. The Scorpion which is outperformed by the Rook and Falcon, And I've personally haven't had the chance to mess around with the Matar battleships, so I can't go into that.
But what I'm trying to say is. They are not as bad as you say they are.
EDIT: Also Judging by the Typhoon you lost, I really don't think you have any idea how to fly Battleships to begin with.
EDIT2: And the Tempest.
So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride 
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:37:41 -
[17] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks. For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov. The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps. That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed. If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre? NOT worth the SP. And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes. Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes. Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/
No no. I am saying all they can do is LVL 4's and T3s can do those well enough too. The only thing battleships have going for them is insurance. |
Valkin Mordirc
974
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:00:10 -
[18] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride
It's not a stab at your pride. If it was I would have commented on the fact that you were so salty after losing a battleship you came here to post about how crap they are. I only said the reason you lost a battleship is because you have no clue on how to fit them. If that hurts your feelings, then...Whatever.
Don't cherry pick information it doesn't do anyone any favours and you end up hurting yourself because you to concerned about being right that you are ignoring useful information.
Yes CCP does seem have bias for Gal ships, Judging on how many Pirate Faction ships need the Gallente ship skill, but thats not the point,
Battleships are also not solo ships. If you expect to go out into lowsec and solo in battleship you are silly and will most likely die in a ball of flames. There are times where you find a perfect set up where you CAN solo with a battleship, and you can do it if your okay with dying in a fire five times before you do, the most power to you honestly.
I gave a list what Battleships do.
You are moving your goal post from, All battleships suck. To only certain battleships suck.
So, my question to you now is, Are you here to Whine, Troll, or figure how you can be better at this game and have fun with it?
#DeleteTheWeak
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:19:09 -
[19] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:So Megathron/Droneboats and high SP/cost faction ships are the only way to do it huh? Sounds like a bias on CCP's part to Gallente. I am not talking about fleets, A fleet of T3s would kill any fleet of battleships. And nice stab at my pride It's not a stab at your pride. If it was I would have commented on the fact that you were so salty after losing a battleship you came here to post about how crap they are. I only said the reason you lost a battleship is because you have no clue on how to fit them. If that hurts your feelings, then...Whatever. Don't cherry pick information it doesn't do anyone any favours and you end up hurting yourself because you to concerned about being right that you are ignoring useful information. Yes CCP does seem have bias for Gal ships, Judging on how many Pirate Faction ships need the Gallente ship skill, but thats not the point, Battleships are also not solo ships. If you expect to go out into lowsec and solo in battleship you are silly and will most likely die in a ball of flames. There are times where you find a perfect set up where you CAN solo with a battleship, and you can do it if your okay with dying in a fire five times before you do, the most power to you honestly. I gave a list what Battleships do. You are moving your goal post from, All battleships suck. To only certain battleships suck. So, my question to you now is, Are you here to Whine, Troll, or figure how you can be better at this game and have fun with it?
No you gave a list of faction BS and Gallente stuff. For the skill points, Battleships aren't worth it. No ship in EVE is really a solo ship. Battleships are just so gimped, it is understood that you have to have another ship, because if a solo frig,cruiser,etc... gets proper range it is over. You haven't even flown all of them. I have flown all races battleships and I am telling you the class as a whole is crap. And all you did was cherry pick. Sure the: "Gallente ships can hit smaller stuff as they get bonuses no other battleships except the Apoc gets, so battleships are still viable!" is pure nonsense bordering on fanboyism.
Nice stab at my pride again. I see I have met someone who really loves his three legged dog here. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:36:30 -
[20] - Quote
What is your methodolgy when measure BS effectivness / efficiency?
I read some lame comments and nothing else from your side, and then you started verbal dueling.
You are fail to learn the way of successfull BS piloting. Feel sorry for that. |
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:39:09 -
[21] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks. For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov. The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps. That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed. If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre? NOT worth the SP. And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes. Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes. Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/
Don't bring that rhetorical crap in here! Your argument is a battleship is good for boring structure wars. Anything else they do worse than smaller ships. Hell you could use a logi role cruiser and heavy guns BC to structure bash. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:40:09 -
[22] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks. For the SP investment they aren't worth it. You will be 6 months or more trying to fit a fail designed ship. T1 battleships are way under powered for the SP investment. T3 outperform them in lvl 4's now. Only Marauders and faction battleships make it worth flying a battleships for lvl 4 missions. You get more mileage out of Cruiser V than BS V. Also, structure bashing is going away in the new sov changes so their use there wont be needed as much in sov. The L4 **** is because of warpspeed, not because of performance, application or dps. That's why the Mach is still a top tier mission runner. Cause of warpspeed. If you think that a small area of the game - L4s - is a way to measure cost / effectiveness of battleships, then please start threads about anything non T3 because for L4 they are sooooo bad. Dictors for example, wow, how am i going to do an AE in my Sabre? NOT worth the SP. And for Nullsec, you forget about the FIGHTS that usually are or should happen prior to structure bashes. Those fights will change through fozzie sov, of course, but dropping a BS fleet will still be a good way to brawl command nodes. Edit: http://crossingzebras.com/small-gang-tier-list-part-4-battleships/ Don't bring that rhetorical crap in here! Your argument is a battleship is good for boring structure wars. Anything else they do worse than smaller ships. Hell, you could use a logi role cruiser and a heavy guns BC to structure bash.
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Valkin Mordirc
974
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:47:17 -
[23] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:No you gave a list of faction BS and Gallente stuff. For the skill points, Battleships aren't worth it. No ship in EVE is really a solo ship. Battleships are just so gimped, it is understood that you have to have another ship, because if a solo frig,cruiser,etc... gets proper range it is over. You haven't even flown all of them. I have flown all races battleships and I am telling you the class as a whole is crap. And all you did was cherry pick. "Sure the Gallente ships can hit smaller stuff as they get bonuses no other battleships except the Apoc gets, so battleships are still viable!" is pure nonsense bordering on fanboyism. Nice stab at my pride again . I see I have met someone who really loves his three legged dog here.
You didn't answer my question, but I may have found the answer.
You refuse to listen, judging by your fits you have no idea how to actually fit for PVP. I'm sure some poor sob once tried to teach you and you only listened to parts you wanted to hear. I true travesty for the person who tried to show you. To have effort wasted like that.
I know guy like that. He had a Charon and he needed to pick up Ore in a highsec island. No matter how many times I told him that bringing a freighter into lowsec was asking for trouble he ignored me. His name was Bobo. And Bobo lost a Charon that day. All because he was so focused on his idea, that when someone told he was being stupid he got defensive and would no longer listen. The next day, he was bringing a second charon to that same island. He got lucky that time, and made it through. He then gloated on how he was right. How he could take a charon through lowsec and not die.
You see where I'm going with this?
Your a Bobo.
Players like you. Who only want people to agree with what they say. So much to the point that logic doesn't matter just as long as they feel that they are right. That somehow they aren't the ones who are stupid. It's the GAMES fault. It's the ships fault. Well guess what? It's not. Everytime you switch the blame to something you brush off, your not going to learn. You're not going to get better.
I tried to show you that your idea of battleships being **** isn't completely right. Battleships need tweaks, but they are not useless. But you're so intent on being "right" that you ignore relevant information, that a the majority of players on this thread have told you.
I don't mean to take stabs at your pride, I honestly don't. If your pride wasn't so fragile maybe it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe you wouldn't need to be so defensive when you do something wrong. You do know it's okay to make a mistake right? That dying isn't the problem. It's when you refuse to find a solution to you dying and blame it on something else, "Lag", "A ****** ship" or "Mechanics" is what your biggest problem is.
If you don't change that kind of attitude, It's only going to make you quit faster or make you rage harder.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
573
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:51:33 -
[24] - Quote
hey if a solo frig aggressed a battleship i doubt its dps would do much to a properly fit battleship, neuts smartbombs and light drones.
your typhoon fit is pretty terrible tbh, it looks like you just quickly skilled it up and fitted a load of mission loot to it
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:15:34 -
[25] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
snark!
Look. I am not saying CCP needs to change anything. I am recommending to players, hopefully newer ones, instead of taking the mission ship route, take the lesser traveled T2/T3 route. They will get the superior ship faster and be able to do more fun EVE stuff than if they scaled to battleship. It is not about my ship loss rate or proper fittings. It is about being able to do more with our time as players and enjoying all of EVE. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
573
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:21:18 -
[26] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:
snark!
Look. I am not saying CCP needs to change anything. I am recommending to players, hopefully newer ones, instead of taking the mission ship route, take the lesser traveled T2/T3 route. They will get the superior ship faster and be able to do more fun EVE stuff than if they scaled to battleship. It is not about my ship loss rate or proper fittings. It is about being able to do more with our time as players and enjoying all of EVE.
lesser traveled t2/t3? you probably looking at the same time to skill into a t3 cruiser as you are a battleship
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:24:19 -
[27] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:
snark!
Look. I am not saying CCP needs to change anything. I am recommending to players, hopefully newer ones, instead of taking the mission ship route, take the lesser traveled T2/T3 route. They will get the superior ship faster and be able to do more fun EVE stuff than if they scaled to battleship. It is not about my ship loss rate or proper fittings. It is about being able to do more with our time as players and enjoying all of EVE. lesser traveled t2/t3? you probably looking at the same time to skill into a t3 cruiser as you are a battleship
yeah, but you get to fly T2 on the way, and you can do more. |
Ahed Sten
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:37:03 -
[28] - Quote
Remind me again why noobs are giving bad advice about a ship class they can't even fly properly? |
HoruSeth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:19:31 -
[29] - Quote
Ahed Sten wrote:Remind me again why noobs are giving bad advice about a ship class they can't even fly properly?
signed! |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
308
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:41:17 -
[30] - Quote
Ah, but you'll be ready when CCP invariably makes a change that brings BS's back to top of the heap again.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10964
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:16:52 -
[31] - Quote
When a person (especially a noob) claims something can't be done (and even goes so far as to tell other people to not do something), they are really just trying to protect their egoes against the sting of failure. THEY can't do it so they think no one else can either.
Of course we all know that this is not true. Yes Battleships take more (player) skill, game knowledge and preparation/support to use in pvp than some other ships. But in the right hands they are unmatchable by ANYTHING else. |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
Absolute Defiance
592
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:01:10 -
[32] - Quote
Well, i already had trained all of my Battleship skills to level 5 back in 2008 (yes, i have been playing since 2004). I first started to use a Raven in late 2005 both for missions and PVP. Then i went to the Tempest in 2006 which by the way i did love at that time. I did use it for a long time before i gave the Megathron a go in late 2007 / early 2008.
After i started to use the Megathron, i was sold on it. And since then i have been a huge fan of the Megathron and i'm still a big fan of the Megathron hull. So i have been using the normal Megathron, Navy Megathron, Vindicator and the Kronos lately.
But the fact is that i'm very specialized in Battleships today. I feel more comfortable in a Battleship than i do with smaller ships. I know how to effectively use the Battleships i use 100% fully out and how to fit them correctly. Yes i usually don't fly Battleships alone, but they are TONS of fun in Battleship fleets.
I actually make videos of flying Battleships to. So you can watch my videos here.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u2YSu0ugts
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-_61zfTE8
The 1st video from Tama i was using an Armageddon for the first time. So i had no idea on how it would go in that fight.
But the simple fact is that if you know what you are doing, Battleships can be extremely effective in PVP.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
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Switch Savage
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
81
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:22:45 -
[33] - Quote
Rapid heavies and a neut would have dropped that Svipul you died to so fast, he would have wondered what hit him. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1029
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:27:17 -
[34] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:A gang of frigs could catch and take down a lonely battleship. True.
A gang of battleships could catch and take down a lonely frig. False?
One of those cases requires a whole lot of stupidity on the pilot's account. |
Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
37
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 17:06:51 -
[35] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Exotic Matters wrote:I have 2 combat toons with 15m and 12m skillpoints and NO battleship or large weapon system skill trained. So I must agree with you. Unless you want to do PvE, skills toward T2/T3 cruisers and smaller are much more useful. Maybe I will get around to battleships in another 6 mo. When i did start my "combat alt", it had ~14 m SP at some point and could only fly a Rifter, nothing else. Take your 15m SP and put them into a discussion where they suffice to join the talk. If you don't have the necessary Support skills for Battleships (which exceed 15m SP by a fair amount) then don't expect that it'd be a good idea to fly one. Battleships are magnificent Ships that provide strong tank and dps at a reasonable price, and if used with (a lot of) other battleships, become less and less skillpoint demanding, as the only thing you have to achieve is 'fit in'. In my mind, i have about 7-8 BS that i consider 'strong' and would fly, if i only had the guns to V or the respective BS skill to V. And a few more that i'd still like to be able to fly. Don't expect a fat space whale to be the best choice for any task. But they certainly are the best choice for some tasks.
Most people are undocking in battleships when having less that 1/2 of my current skillpoints.
What, my opinion doesn't matter because I only have X number of skillpoints. The truth is I put in so many hours of gameplay that I had enough experience to make an informed decision to not to train battleships and instead focus my skill training on cruisers. (1137 kills on main toon, 286 on second). After playing 3-4 hours a day for 9 months I see what works and what doesn't work that well.
I agree that the support skills are extremely important, and are generally neglected by many.
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
38
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Posted - 2015.05.13 19:47:47 -
[36] - Quote
Skill points go further in smaller ships. The whole "but battleships are best flown in a gang" or "needs support skills to fit properly" is not relevant to the discussion. I acknowledge all of that because, that is true for any ship class you fly. Why fly a larger ship when smaller ships can do the job better most of the time. Valid exceptions to structure bashing, because we know how many people just sign right up for that kind of game play. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 20:13:41 -
[37] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408828
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408646 |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
352
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 20:47:14 -
[38] - Quote
SP doesn't matter. If you fit your battleship with the proper meta 4 modules and are a l33t pvp'er, you will be victorious. |
Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
243
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 03:41:21 -
[39] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Anyone who has ever flown a battleship in the EVE Universe, will understand what I mean when I say they are the most riskiest thing to fly with the least amount of reward. Pilots of battleships are flying a slow moving, inaccurate glass cannon(even when properly T2/faction fit.) Pilots of almost every other combat ship class can survive better than a battleship. As it stands now battleships are an under classed vessel that is surely loosing it's place in the game.
The first reason why battleships are worthless is, they have the most trouble hitting targets. Since the game is based on smaller+faster = miss to larger guns, Battleships carrying the largest guns miss everything smaller than it. Now players can manipulate fittings and rigs to make it easier to hit a smaller ships, but no amount of fittings will make a battleship efficient at hitting small targets.
Second, battleships move slow. Some would argue that a larger(mass) ship should move slower, and they are correct. But using this methodology, a ship that is 100x more massive, has only 17x times more armor. Now why would things scale so differently in armor? Because, the game designers want battleships to die to smaller ships. This quote from Evelopedia: "Smaller swarms of ships are able to overwhelm the battleships systems and larger capitol ships with sufficient tracking can be accurate enough to cause quite serious damage, ..." The truth is that, any smaller combat ship can destroy a battleship, and they are designed to be destroyed by larger capital ships too.
Battleships now have the role of PVE combat ships, in PVP they are liabilities. Don't waste your skill points. As the thousands of skill points wasted on battleships would be better spent in cruiser or other skills.
I've flown plenty of BS. The less desirable matar ones too, and i don't understand what you mean. "inaccurate", yep. But you can work around that with a proper fit, and actually putting thought into your fit instead of dumping random modules into it. Good piloting skills help too.
Quote:no amount of fittings will make a battleship efficient at hitting small targets.
This made me chuckle. My solo BS kills frigs/t3d/cruisers/bc's pretty easily. I've used RHML t1 phoon, cruise missile phoon, tempest FI. My T1 phoon gets around 100k EHP and does 800-1100dps. Hell, i've even frigate hunted in a tornado (still uses large guns), and could brawl them down at 2-5km. Just need to understand game mechanics, and know how to bait fights and work them to your advantage. Sorry you can't just click approach and pwn, you need to have some skill, and knowledge in setting up the fight.
With proper fitting, you can escape from smaller ships fairly easily. Most smaller ships are kiting at point range. CCP made this nice little module called a micro jump drive. Long pointed and can't catch them? MJD away to freedom.
Quote:The truth is that, any smaller combat ship can destroy a battleship
The truth? Says who? Speak for yourself, but ANY smaller combat ship cannot kill a BS when properly fit. All or nothing statements like that make you look ignorant. Maybe a ship like yours could be killed by a smaller ship, but my fits revolve around application for this reason. They do not have this issue. Learn to fit/fly.
I have minny BS/BC to 5, and i have more fun in these ships than when i was roaming in frigs. I get plenty of fights, and get lots of kills. Because people like you underestimate them, and think "oh he can't hit me hurr hurr".... "wait why did i die in 4 shots".
Don't discourage people to fly a ship class just because you're bad at it.
Disclaimer: BS are not where they should be by any stretch, but they are not useless, and i still find uses for them in a solo role.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
353
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 03:44:56 -
[40] - Quote
Gotta put a heavy neut in that utility high. Frigate problems done. |
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
196
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Posted - 2015.05.14 05:24:23 -
[41] - Quote
well large gun 5 and battleship 5 come out to be 1.28 million and 2.048 million skill points (0.362million for lv 4) so if you aren't going to max it t2 guns and ship lv 4 only cost 1.6 million skillpoints. which is nothing considering the amount of sp support skills in general cost. |
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
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Posted - 2015.05.14 07:49:01 -
[42] - Quote
If you don't train Battleships, at least train the weapon systems. Oracle, Tornado, Naga and Talos are all fun boats, and can be really useful. |
Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
103
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 10:01:35 -
[43] - Quote
I like battleships |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1179
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:43:25 -
[44] - Quote
I'll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk
Battleships rock the house, they simply require more than average skillpoints to fly and understand correctly. When to deploy them is the key. |
Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
176
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:22:59 -
[45] - Quote
All ships require support skills i really dont understand what makes battleships need "omg supportskills", maybe bit more drones than cruisers but thats pretty much it.
However i do agree that atm battleships arent that dangerous, they should have secondary weaponbatteries of small weapons or something which wouldnt increase their long range capabilities but would make engaging smaller craft nearby easier. And no drones dont count. |
Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
244
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:56:08 -
[46] - Quote
Termy Rockling wrote:All ships require support skills i really dont understand what makes battleships need "omg supportskills", maybe bit more drones than cruisers but thats pretty much it.
However i do agree that atm battleships arent that dangerous, they should have secondary weaponbatteries of small weapons or something which wouldnt increase their long range capabilities but would make engaging smaller craft nearby easier. And no drones dont count.
So you want a ship that can kill small and big things with no drawbacks? So instead of frigate/cruisers online, it will become Battleships online because they have nothing to counter them.
Neuts, learn to use them. Whether big or small, a ship tends to not function when it has no cap.
Yes, drones do count. BS can hit smaller targets when you fit for it and know how to fly.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
991
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:14:51 -
[47] - Quote
We use them all the time in WH space. Baiting null bears is a good use for them. They have the tank to hang in there until the backup arrives and sometimes they just sit in the belt and solo every null bear in system.
https://zkillboard.com/character/326661701/page/2/
Here's the thing.
Rifters are awesome from day one. BS take time. You can't just train gallente BS and large hybrids both to level 3 and think the ship should be great. Turret BS come into their own about the time you have 8-9 million skillpoint.... in gunnery AND a bunch of other stuff supporting it. Your engineering skills have to be up there. Your tanking skills have to be up there. A lot of folks think BS suck because they hop into them before they are ready. You can't even fit a BS properly without the fitting skills at 4 or 5.
Let's not forget these beasts are just shy of a capital ship. A player w/ 20 million SP shouldn't even try to form an opinion on the goodness or badness of a BS - they aren't in a position to make an informed decision on the matter. Just because you can sit in a BS and fill all the module and rig slots doesn't mean you're ready to fly one.
I just came across a triple rep hyperion fit that is just awesome. You can't even fit a full set of guns, 3 reps and 2 cap boosters on a hyperion w/out a lot of maxed out skills. A well flown BS doesn't just happen. You have to earn it w/ patience and SP.
If you want to fly a BS and be good at it just realize it's a commitment. There are no good BS pilots in the class of 2015 and few if any in the class of 2014. You can do it in a year, but you have to be really focussed to a fit.
BS are great ships, you just have to earn their greatness.
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
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Posted - 2015.05.14 20:52:23 -
[48] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:We use them all the time in WH space. Baiting null bears is a good use for them. They have the tank to hang in there until the backup arrives and sometimes they just sit in the belt and solo every null bear in system. https://zkillboard.com/character/326661701/page/2/
Here's the thing. Rifters are awesome from day one. BS take time. You can't just train gallente BS and large hybrids both to level 3 and think the ship should be great. Turret BS come into their own about the time you have 8-9 million skillpoint.... in gunnery AND a bunch of other stuff supporting it. Your engineering skills have to be up there. Your tanking skills have to be up there. A lot of folks think BS suck because they hop into them before they are ready. You can't even fit a BS properly without the fitting skills at 4 or 5. Let's not forget these beasts are just shy of a capital ship. A player w/ 20 million SP shouldn't even try to form an opinion on the goodness or badness of a BS - they aren't in a position to make an informed decision on the matter. Just because you can sit in a BS and fill all the module and rig slots doesn't mean you're ready to fly one. I just came across a triple rep hyperion fit that is just awesome. You can't even fit a full set of guns, 3 reps and 2 cap boosters on a hyperion w/out a lot of maxed out skills. A well flown BS doesn't just happen. You have to earn it w/ patience and SP. If you want to fly a BS and be good at it just realize it's a commitment. There are no good BS pilots in the class of 2015 and few if any in the class of 2014. You can do it in a year, but you have to be really focussed to a fit. BS are great ships, you just have to earn their greatness. Thank you for explaining the magnitude of the situation. There is some truth here and I feel you are teaching/making good points.
We are talking over a year of SP progress. That is a ridiculous amount of time spent to fly a ship for it's limited use. While the support skills can translate into other ships, I don't think the amount of commitment is worth it. If I were to start in the game I would want some one to tell me that, for the amount of time it takes for the ship to be less of a liability, I would have to pay CCP $180 USD. And even then the ship is the least likely survive a gate camp which will happen if you take it into low/null sec. What is the reward from the risk of that hull? How does 1 year of skill training pay off? Where is the fun for my $180?
I feel like focusing on a smaller hull will make for a more fun year. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
992
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:54:46 -
[49] - Quote
We get it dude. You have a problem w/ BS.
That doesn't make them bad or your opinons right. Go stomp on a kitten or something to get this out of your system. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
992
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:09:13 -
[50] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:We use them all the time in WH space. Baiting null bears is a good use for them. They have the tank to hang in there until the backup arrives and sometimes they just sit in the belt and solo every null bear in system. https://zkillboard.com/character/326661701/page/2/
Here's the thing. Rifters are awesome from day one. BS take time. You can't just train gallente BS and large hybrids both to level 3 and think the ship should be great. Turret BS come into their own about the time you have 8-9 million skillpoint.... in gunnery AND a bunch of other stuff supporting it. Your engineering skills have to be up there. Your tanking skills have to be up there. A lot of folks think BS suck because they hop into them before they are ready. You can't even fit a BS properly without the fitting skills at 4 or 5. Let's not forget these beasts are just shy of a capital ship. A player w/ 20 million SP shouldn't even try to form an opinion on the goodness or badness of a BS - they aren't in a position to make an informed decision on the matter. Just because you can sit in a BS and fill all the module and rig slots doesn't mean you're ready to fly one. I just came across a triple rep hyperion fit that is just awesome. You can't even fit a full set of guns, 3 reps and 2 cap boosters on a hyperion w/out a lot of maxed out skills. A well flown BS doesn't just happen. You have to earn it w/ patience and SP. If you want to fly a BS and be good at it just realize it's a commitment. There are no good BS pilots in the class of 2015 and few if any in the class of 2014. You can do it in a year, but you have to be really focussed to a fit. BS are great ships, you just have to earn their greatness. Thank you for explaining the magnitude of the situation. There is some truth here and I feel you are teaching/making good points. We are talking over a year of SP progress. That is a ridiculous amount of time spent to fly a ship for it's limited use. While the support skills can translate into other ships, I don't think the amount of commitment is worth it. If I were to start in the game I would want some one to tell me that, for the amount of time it takes for the ship to be less of a liability, I would have to pay CCP $180 USD. And even then the ship is the least likely survive a gate camp which will happen if you take it into low/null sec. What is the reward from the risk of that hull? How does 1 year of skill training pay off? Where is the fun for my $180? I feel like focusing on a smaller hull will make for a more fun year.
You're looking at the game all wrong. To get good at flying a BS you should go play eve for 2years and have a blast doing it. Do that in frigates, cruisers, BC you can even dable in mining.... whatever makes you happy. At the 2 year point get serious about the BS facet of the game and dive in prepared and ready to go. Don't mope around for 2 years because you weren't born as a BS ace.
I'm a good dread pilot and a good carrier pilot. Which one you might ask. All of them. Here's the thing. I didn't even think about training any capital ships until I crossed over 100million SP. I didn't think about sitting in a faction BS until I had both of the requisite racial BS trained to 5. Did I have to wait that long? Heck no. In my first year I lost 12 megas running L3 and L4 missions because I wasn't ready to be in one and did it anyhow. I learned the hard way to have patience. When I finally got smart I flew assault frigates and cruisers and had a blast. Once I was ready I got into bigger things, but I didn't mope around complaining - I went out there in what I could fly well and had a super time.
EVE isn't about being able to fly a BS. EVE is about going out there meating a few dudes online, hanging w/ the ones you get along with and BLOWINGSHITUP. Don't get frustrated. Go do something else that is fun and in the background keep an eye on the bigger ships. When you're ready stop having on kind of fun and begin another. Slow and steady and laugh about all of it.
Right now my favorite ship for what I'm doing is the orthrus. I've never liked to fly capital ships and only do that when necessary. My all time favorite ship is the enyo. I flew the crap out of those things way before AF got some love and became cool. |
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:14:03 -
[51] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Termy Rockling wrote:All ships require support skills i really dont understand what makes battleships need "omg supportskills", maybe bit more drones than cruisers but thats pretty much it.
However i do agree that atm battleships arent that dangerous, they should have secondary weaponbatteries of small weapons or something which wouldnt increase their long range capabilities but would make engaging smaller craft nearby easier. And no drones dont count. So you want a ship that can kill small and big things with no drawbacks? So instead of frigate/cruisers online, it will become Battleships online because they have nothing to counter them. Neuts, learn to use them. Whether big or small, a ship tends to not function when it has no cap. Yes, drones do count. BS can hit smaller targets when you fit for it and know how to fly.
I had to chuckle. Battleships online? The biggest drawbacks battleships have is that they are slow to move and slow to lock. Players don't have to engage a battleship ever. It doesn't survive against gangs just like every other ship in this game. But if CCP did decide to make some changes as was suggested, the ship class would fit the quote dev description in the OP. Ya know the "swarms of smaller ships"? Drones don't count because some battleships have drone bonus, but most do not. If drones are the anti smaller ships, why not give all battleships a drone bonus? Or at least one in the battleship class kinda like what they did with the new battle cruisers? Not all battleships can fit neuts effectively for PVP either. Perhaps CCP should design battleships with a reduction to neut fitting reqs? |
Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
177
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 22:53:44 -
[52] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Termy Rockling wrote:All ships require support skills i really dont understand what makes battleships need "omg supportskills", maybe bit more drones than cruisers but thats pretty much it.
However i do agree that atm battleships arent that dangerous, they should have secondary weaponbatteries of small weapons or something which wouldnt increase their long range capabilities but would make engaging smaller craft nearby easier. And no drones dont count. So you want a ship that can kill small and big things with no drawbacks? So instead of frigate/cruisers online, it will become Battleships online because they have nothing to counter them. Neuts, learn to use them. Whether big or small, a ship tends to not function when it has no cap. Yes, drones do count. BS can hit smaller targets when you fit for it and know how to fly.
You didnt really read the post properly, just instantly started slinging standard replies 
I just find it funny that t1 frigate can kill a battleship alone, the size difference alone should mean that the small guy cannot do so much.
Also i know the "basics" of EVE so no need to play the broken record. |
Paranoid Loyd
5143
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:02:12 -
[53] - Quote
A frigate can only kill a BS if it is properly fit and the BS is improperly fit for the fight. That is the way it should be.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:39:06 -
[54] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:He did read it properly and his standard replies are the correct answers. A frigate can only kill a BS if it is properly fit and the BS is improperly fit for the fight. That is the way it should be.
He totally skipped the part where i mentioned that all ships need support skills, not only battleships.
He also instantly assumed that i would like to get some supership, which wasnt the case.
No idea how he pulled the no drawbacks bit from mentioning small guns, they already made rapid heavies so guns may or may not be coming sometime.
I shouldnt expect sensible replies though, the HTFU crowd is too overwhelming anyway (and since my killboard is pretty much empty, i know nothing about anything).
Fly safe, or dangerously, just have fun. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:40:14 -
[55] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:He did read it properly and his standard replies are the correct answers. A frigate can only kill a BS if it is properly fit and the BS is improperly fit for the fight. That is the way it should be.
Again we go about the properly fit cycle. Any ship can be properly fit to beat any improperly fit ship. Battleships are still out classed as properly fitting a smaller ship would pay off better. The problem with this side of the debate is that it doesn't address the hull, it merely talks about how you could, with loads of resources and time, fly a battleship that can kill something smaller. No one has yet mentioned a combat role, besides bait, where battleships shine. For all that time you sunk into training for a battleship, you could accomplish more with smaller hulls.
And battleships should have some defense against smaller ships. If a frig and battle cruiser can get bonuses to large weapon systems, why can't a battleship get bonuses to smaller weapon systems? |
Paranoid Loyd
5145
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:43:08 -
[56] - Quote
They do have defense against smaller ships. Do you need me to repeat what they are again? You don't need a bonused weapon system to be effective.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:57:22 -
[57] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:They do have defense against smaller ships. Do you need me to repeat what they are again? You don't need a bonused weapon system to be effective.
If all you have is drones, you might as well just stop. Some T1 hull cruisers has more drone space than most battleships, making them more equipped to take on targets of any size than a battleship. |
Paranoid Loyd
5145
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:12:00 -
[58] - Quote
Drones are all you need to kill a frigate, not sure why you keep dismissing them. Neuts can also be used. Lower tier guns can be used to great effect when combined with webs and/or tracking mods. Not to mention there is nothing stopping you from putting med or small guns on your ship.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:26:28 -
[59] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Drones are all you need to kill a frigate, not sure why you keep dismissing them. Neuts can also be used. Lower tier guns can be used to great effect when combined with webs and/or tracking mods. Not to mention there is nothing stopping you from putting med or small guns on your ship.
Did you read? Not all battleships can field a sufficient amount of drones with effective damage to destroy all smaller targets. Some T2/T3 ships laugh at drones. The rest of your post is just trying too hard.
|
Paranoid Loyd
5145
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:29:11 -
[60] - Quote
If we are not talking about frigates, a properly flown ship can easily hit cruisers and BCs with large guns. I'm not trying hard, I am giving you solutions, if you choose to ignore them that is your choice.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
|
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:44:42 -
[61] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:If we are not talking about frigates, a properly flown ship can easily hit cruisers and BCs with large guns. I'm not trying hard, I am giving you solutions, if you choose to ignore them that is your choice.
Again with the properly flown stuff. A properly flown (your ship here) will destroy any other ship. |
Capt Sephiroth
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:45:12 -
[62] - Quote
another thing is that you are comparing t3 cruisers with t1 hulls, if you want to compare t2 cruisers then compare them to t2 battleships. I am sure that a t1 cruiser will have fun vs any of the t1 battleships.
And in one of your posts you said that a fleet of t3s would lose to a fleet of battleships which really isn't the case. Battleships outdps any t3, if both fleets were to go long range, battleships have the edge, if they go for short range, again battleships have the edge, except well torpedoes cause well application. If anything battleships have more meat on them so that logi would catch a bs when a cruiser hull would go boom. And here drones come into effect as well since most of the t3's cant even fly a set of drones while most battleships can field medium and some even heavy drones. Just some random imagining of brawling fleet of t3's entering a group of vindicators.
The reason that battleships aren't used in mass in null is ok for maneuverability but stronger reason is they are quite vulnerable to bomber fleets, and I feel from reading what many null players said in the past that that is the one of the main reasons cruiser hulls are used more.
One constant batter from OP side is that the time it takes for you to be able to properly fly a battleship is bigger than that of a cruiser hull. Many people have already said this that support skills are the same, difference being in only the battleship and large t2 weapons.
Just one more thing to add before I leave this to other more experienced players to try and show others how you are wrong. If anything you just said was true then on alliance tournaments you wouldn't see a single battleship seeing as they cost so many points and yet you did and some of them were one of the main reasons they won. (hull tanked typhoon ftw!!!!) |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:46:37 -
[63] - Quote
Capt Sephiroth wrote:another thing is that you are comparing t3 cruisers with t1 hulls, if you want to compare t2 cruisers then compare them to t2 battleships. I am sure that a t1 cruiser will have fun vs any of the t1 battleships.
And in one of your posts you said that a fleet of t3s would lose to a fleet of battleships which really isn't the case. Battleships outdps any t3, if both fleets were to go long range, battleships have the edge, if they go for short range, again battleships have the edge, except well torpedoes cause well application. If anything battleships have more meat on them so that logi would catch a bs when a cruiser hull would go boom. And here drones come into effect as well since most of the t3's cant even fly a set of drones while most battleships can field medium and some even heavy drones. Just some random imagining of brawling fleet of t3's entering a group of vindicators.
The reason that battleships aren't used in mass in null is ok for maneuverability but stronger reason is they are quite vulnerable to bomber fleets, and I feel from reading what many null players said in the past that that is the one of the main reasons cruiser hulls are used more.
One constant batter from OP side is that the time it takes for you to be able to properly fly a battleship is bigger than that of a cruiser hull. Many people have already said this that support skills are the same, difference being in only the battleship and large t2 weapons.
Just one more thing to add before I leave this to other more experienced players to try and show others how you are wrong. If anything you just said was true then on alliance tournaments you wouldn't see a single battleship seeing as they cost so many points and yet you did and some of them were one of the main reasons they won. (hull tanked typhoon ftw!!!!)
Actually I am comparing time/skill investment . Assume the people flying the T3s aren't dummies, there is no way a T3 fleet would lose to a battleship fleet. Go ahead Google it. |
Capt Sephiroth
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:50:03 -
[64] - Quote
as many said and will say, well worth it cause they outclass smaller hulls in most ways except in maneuverability and being more vulnerable to bombers. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:52:48 -
[65] - Quote
Capt Sephiroth wrote:as many said and will say, well worth it cause they outclass smaller hulls in most ways except in maneuverability and being more vulnerable to bombers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqN2easmtGw
The battleships died first.... |
Paranoid Loyd
5145
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 00:53:07 -
[66] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:If we are not talking about frigates, a properly flown ship can easily hit cruisers and BCs with large guns. I'm not trying hard, I am giving you solutions, if you choose to ignore them that is your choice. Again with the properly flown stuff. A properly flown (your ship here) will destroy any other ship.
What I said is true, what you said is not true and after reviewing the loss that caused this post I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference of what I said and what you said.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Capt Sephiroth
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:01:58 -
[67] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Capt Sephiroth wrote:as many said and will say, well worth it cause they outclass smaller hulls in most ways except in maneuverability and being more vulnerable to bombers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqN2easmtGw
The battleships died first....
You do realize that the fleet members of the person that recorded a video brought in 3 dreads right to blap them, 2 revelations and a moros? |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:03:07 -
[68] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:If we are not talking about frigates, a properly flown ship can easily hit cruisers and BCs with large guns. I'm not trying hard, I am giving you solutions, if you choose to ignore them that is your choice. Again with the properly flown stuff. A properly flown (your ship here) will destroy any other ship. What I said is true, what you said is not true and after reviewing the loss that caused this post I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference of what I said and what you said.
I have more knowledge about the subject and you don't want to do the research.You have nothing to contribute. I understand. You should look at that video I linked. You might learn something. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:05:49 -
[69] - Quote
Capt Sephiroth wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Capt Sephiroth wrote:as many said and will say, well worth it cause they outclass smaller hulls in most ways except in maneuverability and being more vulnerable to bombers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqN2easmtGw
The battleships died first.... You do realize that the fleet members of the person that recorded a video brought in 3 dreads right to blap them, 2 revelations and a moros?
It desn't matter the OP said battleships suck against Caps and smaller ships. There was a fleet of battleships that could not kill the larger or smaller ships to save its life. If the battleships had been in something smaller, the caps would not have mattered. |
Capt Sephiroth
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:13:08 -
[70] - Quote
I am sorry sir but you have no clue on how stuff works. It wasn't a fleet of battleships, but a combined fleet of t3, bs and an archon as a logi. They got baited out and the cameraman's fleet numbered 3x more than the opposing fleet and brought in 3 capitals that can hit cruisers as well as battleships, you notice how they cyno-ed them bit further away. And another thing rewatch that video cause the 1st thing that is shown to die is a loki, not a battleship. You have ALOT to learn and I will not indulge into further discussions in this thread cause the only person saying anything remotely to what you suggest is well you and you have been proven and told by many other FAR FAR more experienced and knowledgeable people that you are wrong and need to reconsider your views and learn how to play the game in general.
Best regards and hope you see reason
Capt Sephiroth |
|
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
42
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:31:37 -
[71] - Quote
Capt Sephiroth wrote:I am sorry sir but you have no clue on how stuff works. It wasn't a fleet of battleships, but a combined fleet of t3, bs and an archon as a logi. They got baited out and the cameraman's fleet numbered 3x more than the opposing fleet and brought in 3 capitals that can hit cruisers as well as battleships, you notice how they cyno-ed them bit further away. And another thing rewatch that video cause the 1st thing that is shown to die is a loki, not a battleship. You have ALOT to learn and I will not indulge into further discussions in this thread cause the only person saying anything remotely to what you suggest is well you and you have been proven and told by many other FAR FAR more experienced and knowledgeable people that you are wrong and need to reconsider your views and learn how to play the game in general.
Best regards and hope you see reason
Capt Sephiroth
1.Say what you will dude. The battleships did not add anything beneficial. If battleships could handle swarms of ships, 3Xs the smaller ships should have been no problem.
2. Capitals can hit cruisers? Yeah better than battleships can huh?
3. Of course my mistake a loki was lost first. (bigger threat than a battleship huh?) |
Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
245
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:32:41 -
[72] - Quote
Termy Rockling wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Termy Rockling wrote:All ships require support skills i really dont understand what makes battleships need "omg supportskills", maybe bit more drones than cruisers but thats pretty much it.
However i do agree that atm battleships arent that dangerous, they should have secondary weaponbatteries of small weapons or something which wouldnt increase their long range capabilities but would make engaging smaller craft nearby easier. And no drones dont count. So you want a ship that can kill small and big things with no drawbacks? So instead of frigate/cruisers online, it will become Battleships online because they have nothing to counter them. Neuts, learn to use them. Whether big or small, a ship tends to not function when it has no cap. Yes, drones do count. BS can hit smaller targets when you fit for it and know how to fly. I just find it funny that t1 frigate can kill a battleship alone, the size difference alone should mean that the small guy cannot do so much. Also i know the "basics" of EVE so no need to play the broken record.
Yes, when the BS pilot is dumb and doesn't fit for application/utility, and instead focuses on max gank and or tank. Then a t1 frigate can solo a BS. But, that t1 frigate pilot has to be smart enough to shoot the BS drones immediately, and the BS pilot needs to be dumb enough to not know how to cycle drones. The BS pilot also needs to be dumb enough to not fit a neut, web, Rigors/TP/TE/TC's etc to be held down by a t1 frig.
These scenario's are from unexperienced BS pilots who think they know everything, and just assume that BS should be the best. They think all that dps and tank means they can't die, but they forget that they are using LARGE weapons, and between tracking and sig radius, they don't track small targets well for that very reason. Having a BS beat everything below it, means people would just fly BS all the time, since they can engage any target. And they know in a BS, they can kill anything, and flying anything but BS is foolish since if you come across a BS, you'll die.
You want proof, look at the ishtar, it is so flexible at killing any target, thats why its the 3rd most used ship in the game right now. Behind the Svipul (which is new) as its still pretty powerful for a destroyer, and sabre, which is the most popular null bubbler.
Quote:You didnt really read the post properly, just instantly started slinging standard replies
You said dumb standard things, so you get the same standard replies when dumb things are spoken.
Quote:Also i know the "basics" of EVE so no need to play the broken record.
Great, so you know how to approach, warp, and lock a target. EVE has more levels than "Basic". If you knew more than the "basics" then you wouldn't be asking "what makes BS require more support skills than all the other ships".
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Valkin Mordirc
977
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:24:42 -
[73] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I have more knowledge about the subject .
https://beta.eve-kill.net/character/90226855/
Doubtful
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
44
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 05:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
Yes I lost a PVE fit battleship. It doesn't invalidate the OP. If this is all you have than you should go elsewhere before you violate the forum rules. |
Valkin Mordirc
977
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:15:52 -
[75] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes I lost a PVE fit battleship. It doesn't invalidate the OP. If this is all you have than you should go elsewhere before you violate the forum rules.
Mhm, and you obviously have no idea on how to fly battleships.
And my link was your K/B showing that you don't know how to fly Battleships, Soooo if that is irrelevant, that means that your own personal experience is worthless? Making your OP a salty rage filled, nonsense of a person who wants CCP to make battleships the be all end of ships like he thought they were?
Good to know thanks.
#DeleteTheWeak
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
894
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:36:18 -
[76] - Quote
This thread makes me giggle....
OP just an FYI fleets are usually made up of more than one ship... you say battleships cant hit cruisers or frigs.... add in a couple of webbing loki's (prob what died in that vid), bubbles, TP's... then watch as they steam roll whatevers on grid.
What you dont seem to realise is that the meta in this game changes. Fleets change to counter whatever fleet was the counter before them. Ishtars were the flavor of the month down to broken'ness, before that there was alpha fleet, tengu's, drake fleet, zealots.... each the counter to something else or whatever was happening in game at the time. Some brightspark might find that cruise ravens is the next big thing... who knows... but just because battleships arent used right now doesnt mean theyre broken...
No Worries
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
994
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 15:37:02 -
[77] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:If we are not talking about frigates, a properly flown ship can easily hit cruisers and BCs with large guns. I'm not trying hard, I am giving you solutions, if you choose to ignore them that is your choice. Again with the properly flown stuff. A properly flown (your ship here) will destroy any other ship. What I said is true, what you said is not true and after reviewing the loss that caused this post I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference of what I said and what you said. I have more knowledge about the subject and you don't want to do the research.You have nothing to contribute. I understand. You should look at that video I linked. You might learn something.
I've looked at your kb. I'd say you basically have zero knowledge. Please show us your main or admit you don't KNOW what you're talking about. This is getting kind of rediculous. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1234
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 16:16:19 -
[78] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Klaus Tylar wrote:Battleships can be useful as cheap structure bashing implements, particularly in situations where dreads are either inaccessible or undesirable. So a battleship is like using a shoe when a hammer is not around? The obvious instrument for bashing structures is the dread.
Your lack of understanding of game mechanics makes the proper replies required to be a small novel.
In short, Battleships are quite viable most well balanced fleets. If you don't think so, don't fly one.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
450
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:13:10 -
[79] - Quote
A man who thinks battleships are worthless does not understand how to use battleships.
A man who thinks frigates are worthless does not understand how to use frigates.
Knowing what to fly, how to fly it, and when to fly it is important. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
354
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 19:39:08 -
[80] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:A man who thinks battleships are worthless does not understand how to use battleships.
A man who thinks frigates are worthless does not understand how to use frigates.
Knowing what to fly, how to fly it, and when to fly it is important.
All ships have their uses. Someone are just less useful than others.
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
52
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:14:06 -
[81] - Quote
With the exception of a few pilots most of you are missing the point and need to re read the OP. I could care less how you fit or fleet a battleship. I am saying: with all the other choices around, there is no good reason to use one. If battleships are your "love boat", that's fine. But don't pretend that you need one or that they play a significant role outside of PVE and structure bashing.
You can PVP in any combat ship, but there really is not a role that battleships do very well that another ship could do with less SP requirements and more efficiency.
EX:
You wanna snipe? Use the large guns BC
Tanking? Just outmaneuver them a la (T2/T3)
Wanna clear out smaller ships? Use Amarr or Gallente crusier or frig
You wanna kill other battleships? Use cap ships
The reasoning:
If you scale the ships based on mass, you are at the top of the scale in the battleship (excluding superior cap ships). It doesn't have any of the advantages that speed and size give you (minimal advantage against a dreadnought). Your weapons systems are the least likeliest to hit for full damage in the game. Yet it has some of the highest skill point requirements. There really isn't a lot of value in the ship class.
I acknowledge that faction battleships have advantages, but for the cost and skill points, you are risking a lot when there are plenty of other choices.
I will say it again. A fleet of properly fit ships is always going to to be better than a solo poorly fit ship. A fleet of properly fit ships is not always better than a fleet of properly fit other ships. |
Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:25:15 -
[82] - Quote
THE EMPRESS NEEDS HER BOAT FINISHED TO DEFEAT THE DRIFTERS!
- Petition to Finish the Aeon Model -
http://i.imgur.com/myo5mKg.jpg
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5748552#post5748552 |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
52
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:18:33 -
[83] - Quote
Tidy up a bit. |
big miker
Rifterlings
The WeHurt Initiative
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:43:33 -
[84] - Quote
With a **** ton of nano battleship experience I can say that a large bunch of battleships are fine. Apart from warp-speed, I still find that battleships should warp at aprox 2.5 au/s. Other than that there's a couple of battleship that need a small buff / tweaking. Mainly the Tempest.
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Bombers in 0.0 might be a little bit too good at countering battleships though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFi_i8y84p8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXTS7Lpt0WI
^ Proof of having experience ^
Latest video: Ferocious 5.0 sporting a nano Nightmare!!
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Paranoid Loyd
5164
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:03:52 -
[85] - Quote
Wow, look at that, Big Miker hitting smaller ships with big guns, and OMG in the first clip they are unbonused! How is this possible? 
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
big miker
Rifterlings
The WeHurt Initiative
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:07:23 -
[86] - Quote
big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Latest video: Ferocious 5.0 sporting a nano Nightmare!!
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Paranoid Loyd
5164
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:11:39 -
[87] - Quote
big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 2 of the 4 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
52
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 00:11:26 -
[88] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me.
You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ?
I really can't spell it out any easier for you than that. This is about battleships being one of the silliest ships to fly because, other smaller ships can do it better. You seem to be only focused on hitting smaller ships. Yes a battleship can specialize to hit a smaller ship, but it has to more than other ships in the game. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
52
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 00:17:24 -
[89] - Quote
big miker wrote:With a **** ton of nano battleship experience I can say that a large bunch of battleships are fine. Apart from warp-speed, I still find that battleships should warp at aprox 2.5 au/s. Other than that there's a couple of battleship that need a small buff / tweaking. Mainly the Tempest. They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily. Bombers in 0.0 might be a little bit too good at countering battleships though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFi_i8y84p8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXTS7Lpt0WI^ Proof of having experience ^
I would love to discuss the tempest with you on another thread. Oh boy the things I have to say about that ship! |
Valkin Mordirc
981
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 02:56:06 -
[90] - Quote
Quote:EX:
You wanna snipe? Use the large guns BC
This is true, the Rokh is in a bad place as it doesn't fill it's intended role. Same with the Tornado and Oracle, however sometime you do need a BS sized tank, the RnK Golden Fleet is prime example for it.
Quote:
Tanking? Just outmaneuver them a la (T2/T3)
When it comes to small gang and fleet fights, Webs from Loki's and Huggins negate this, any BS fleet will have these to support them. Just like any other fleet will have a support wing. BS'es still out DPS T3's and when a T3 is being painted webbed and scrammed full damage is applied fairly well.
Quote:
Wanna clear out smaller ships? Use Amarr or Gallente crusier or frig
Actually The Cerb/Orthrus or dare I say it Barghest would be the best choice for taking out smaller ships, so medium blasters and Pulses can't track frigates with out web support, and if you need to kill cruisers the Barghest is king with RHML's and it's impressive speed.
Quote:You wanna kill other battleships? Use cap ships
Please tell me where you keep your combat fitted Dread in Highsec. Also Cap ships take longer to skill into then battleships so I don't understand why you are saying this.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Frank Armour
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 02:56:52 -
[91] - Quote
I think I get it.
You're looking at Frigate and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in any circumstance.
You're looking at Cruiser and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in many circumstance.
And the list goes on and on until you hit Battleships!
TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = UnManageable, NO fun and only needed in very very "very" special occasion which also create the equation --> TIME TO TRAIN (a.k.a. The years long training) + Cost associated = Finally get to use your nice BS once a month if you're really driven/lucky or just in a good corp)
I'm new to the game (only 2 months in) and my goal is to fly Battleship/Marauder. That's the whole reason I was reading this post. And after hearing both side of the battle... I'm more determined to get a BS/Mar than ever!
I love BS! They are big slow ass ships that are just like the Defensive Lineman in Football. You can't expect them to run fast or catch the ball but they're just as essential. Although this comparison isn't the greatest, you should'nt expect anything else from them.
Go forward into an other hull. Get yourself all kinds of other sexy ships. All this thread has told anyone is that you don't like Battleships cause if you did, you'd be like all the others defending the BS for his use. Accepting the fact it's not the greatest ship but knowing improvement could be made.
And as far as the training time... I'm starting to realize that any ship could take an incredible amount of Skill point/Time if you're dedicated to it!
Just my 2cents |
Daerrol
Quantum Singularities
Half Massed
159
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 03:24:54 -
[92] - Quote
3 really fun fights I've ever been in:
Taking on Lazorhawks in Apoc Navies
Fighting Capitals in a Bhaalgorn
Soloing in an armageddon
BS don't happen much but when they do 100% pure sex |
Wander Prian
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
67
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 11:38:52 -
[93] - Quote
Using a battleship might not be the most common choice to go for, but there are some situations that a battleship is the right tool to use. I can kinda agree that newer players might want to stick to smaller ships at first, but I don't go telling them to NOT train battleships. Eve is a game of knowledge. You need to know what tool (ship) to use to solve a problem.
As a wormhole-dweller, we have to think about the mass of the fleet we bring through a wormhole. You don't usually see many battleships in our fleet's, but there are a few that are quite often seen in fleets, because they do something that no other ship can. Personally I love flying Bhaalgorns in pvp. Or the Armageddon. I've seen people use the Nestor as a replacement for guardians. And of course there is the Vindicator for t3-melting dps and the ability to make a dreadnaught hit a frigate |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
255
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 13:39:01 -
[94] - Quote
Frank Armour wrote:I think I get it.
You're looking at Frigate and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in any circumstance.
You're looking at Cruiser and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in many circumstance.
And the list goes on and on until you hit Battleships!
TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = UnManageable, NO fun and only needed in very very "very" special occasion which also create the equation --> TIME TO TRAIN (a.k.a. The years long training) + Cost associated = Finally get to use your nice BS once a month if you're really driven/lucky or just in a good corp)
I'm new to the game (only 2 months in) and my goal is to fly Battleship/Marauder. That's the whole reason I was reading this post. And after hearing both side of the battle... I'm more determined to get a BS/Mar than ever!
I love BS! They are big slow ass ships that are just like the Defensive Lineman in Football. You can't expect them to run fast or catch the ball but they're just as essential. Although this comparison isn't the greatest, you should'nt expect anything else from them.
Go forward into an other hull. Get yourself all kinds of other sexy ships. All this thread has told anyone is that you don't like Battleships cause if you did, you'd be like all the others defending the BS for his use. Accepting the fact it's not the greatest ship but knowing improvement could be made.
And as far as the training time... I'm starting to realize that any ship could take an incredible amount of Skill point/Time if you're dedicated to it!
Just my 2cents
I dont know where you got 'essential' from as you generally see fleets and gangs without any. But hey you can say that about most things. So im not sure anything is 'essential' except for logi. Anyway id say battleships are a tad too niche currently and mostly seeing use in pve is an unfortunate distinction they posses. |
Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
248
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 14:50:04 -
[95] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Frank Armour wrote:I think I get it.
You're looking at Frigate and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in any circumstance.
You're looking at Cruiser and you're telling yourself, TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = Manageable, fun and a good overall ship to use in many circumstance.
And the list goes on and on until you hit Battleships!
TIME TO TRAIN + Cost Associated = UnManageable, NO fun and only needed in very very "very" special occasion which also create the equation --> TIME TO TRAIN (a.k.a. The years long training) + Cost associated = Finally get to use your nice BS once a month if you're really driven/lucky or just in a good corp)
I'm new to the game (only 2 months in) and my goal is to fly Battleship/Marauder. That's the whole reason I was reading this post. And after hearing both side of the battle... I'm more determined to get a BS/Mar than ever!
I love BS! They are big slow ass ships that are just like the Defensive Lineman in Football. You can't expect them to run fast or catch the ball but they're just as essential. Although this comparison isn't the greatest, you should'nt expect anything else from them.
Go forward into an other hull. Get yourself all kinds of other sexy ships. All this thread has told anyone is that you don't like Battleships cause if you did, you'd be like all the others defending the BS for his use. Accepting the fact it's not the greatest ship but knowing improvement could be made.
And as far as the training time... I'm starting to realize that any ship could take an incredible amount of Skill point/Time if you're dedicated to it!
Just my 2cents I dont know where you got 'essential' from as you generally see fleets and gangs without any. But hey you can say that about most things. So im not sure anything is 'essential' except for logi. Anyway id say battleships are a tad too niche currently and mostly seeing use in pve is an unfortunate distinction they posses.
Theyre niche` because barely anyone flies BCs anymore. If BCs could actually counter cruisers effectively, then BCs would be more common. Meaning BS have a role to fill by killing BCs. Currently, people ignore BCs and just train t2/t3 cruisers. That is why its cruisers online atm.
The ship food chain is broken because of BCs which has put BS in niche' roles since their targets of oppertunity are no where to be found.
Shameless plug incoming: see thread in my sig.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Stitch Kaneland
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
248
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Posted - 2015.05.16 15:05:30 -
[96] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me. You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ?
Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse).
If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills.
When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
293
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 15:21:10 -
[97] - Quote
As long as the rattlesnake exists this argument as a whole is bullshit. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1016
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 17:06:29 -
[98] - Quote
This is one of the best pilots in the game, flying one of the fastest frigates in the game.
I mean, this guy can fly a ship.
But guess who ruined his day in this fight? The battleship.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=26386714
I have to say, I don't like the current meta of frigates online, but most BS pilots know what it takes to kill frigates, and it can be done.
I've had decent success with a duel neut Tempest, scram/web/TP/neut = blap, but lots of ships can do the job.
The problem is blobs. Even a tiny fleet of frigates and destroyers can pump out amazing DPS. By the time you kill 2 or 3 of them you're in trouble.
They killed the Drake, because at one point, a blob of them was considered OP.
They should do the same to little ships. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
53
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Posted - 2015.05.17 02:31:14 -
[99] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me. You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ? Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse). If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills. When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
Nope. I am not going to let you not include T3s. Again if you re read the first post you will see that I couldn't care less about what fit you used to kill a frig or cruiser, just that for the SP invested, battleships don't do anything smaller ships or cap ship can do better. Except for high sec structure fights/PVE.
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Valkin Mordirc
992
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Posted - 2015.05.17 03:19:33 -
[100] - Quote
You know with your sort of tenacity not to give in to literally EVERYONE telling you, that Battleships are worth while, you cling to your own opinion that they are not.
If you only put that sort of attitude into becoming a better Battleship pilot.
#DeleteTheWeak
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15914
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:05:36 -
[101] - Quote
What a silly thread.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 08:23:47 -
[102] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Nope. I am not going to let you not include T3s. Again if you re read the first post you will see that I couldn't care less about what fit you used to kill a frig or cruiser, just that for the SP invested, battleships don't do anything smaller ships or cap ship can do better. Except for high sec structure fights/PVE.
Ok ok so T3's ... they do a lot of things too well (needs moar nerf), and some do specific things really really well which make FC's go cross eyed.
But theyre still not the end all. And SP wise there isnt much between a T3 and a BS....
You say that there is always another ship that will do the job better than a BS... fine... Some fleet ships that are pretty basic...
Please show me a sub cap that isnt a BS that can hit with an alpha 10000dmg out to 70km with over 100k hp? (Maelstrom)
Or perhaps 800dps at 80km with over 150k hp? (Abaddon)
Wont touch Navy or faction ships because that might be a bit unfair... and cost seems to be a problem for you... (no srp?)
No Worries
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
139
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Posted - 2015.05.18 08:58:15 -
[103] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:
snark!
Look. I am not saying CCP needs to change anything. I am recommending to players, hopefully newer ones, instead of taking the mission ship route, take the lesser traveled T2/T3 route. They will get the superior ship faster and be able to do more fun EVE stuff than if they scaled to battleship. It is not about my ship loss rate or proper fittings. It is about being able to do more with our time as players and enjoying all of EVE.
are you serious? lesser traveled than T3? if you belong to a group that has a "home" and assets to defend then you better have that BS trained to level 5 or you'll loose it.
Just Add Water
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1238
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Posted - 2015.05.18 18:30:51 -
[104] - Quote
Quote:You wanna snipe? Use the large guns BC
Tanking? Just outmaneuver them a la (T2/T3)
Wanna clear out smaller ships? Use Amarr or Gallente crusier or frig
You wanna kill other battleships? Use cap ships
You want to get sniped back? Fly a weak tank BC.
Speed tank? Web/point.
Hitting flies with a sledgehammer is for idiots. That hardly means sledgehammers are useless.
Cap ships dont go in hisec and most wspace, and are gankbait when they do. Ironically, to battleships.
As I said, your lack of understanding of mechanics constitutes a small novel. I suggest Eve U.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
10
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Posted - 2015.05.18 19:41:32 -
[105] - Quote
Meh, some people would argue that I'm a battleship pilot (sub cap pilot really), but I never once felt like they were weak. Maybe people are just bad at using them. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
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Posted - 2015.05.18 21:06:07 -
[106] - Quote
On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15922
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 21:08:43 -
[107] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 21:24:22 -
[108] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship.
Dismissed as circumstantial. |
Paranoid Loyd
5208
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Posted - 2015.05.18 21:26:59 -
[109] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship. Dismissed as circumstantial.
Dismissed as clueless.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
610
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Posted - 2015.05.18 21:34:23 -
[110] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I will say it again. A fleet of properly fit ships is always going to to be better than a solo poorly fit ship. A fleet of properly fit ships is not always better than a fleet of properly fit other ships.
hey i see alot of people using battleships to counter the ishtar, thats a t2 cruiser so whats the crack?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1007
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Posted - 2015.05.18 21:36:01 -
[111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:What a silly thread.
Coming from a guy that has never actually flown a BS. The nerve.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15924
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 22:00:44 -
[112] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Dismissed as circumstantial.
We just put Delve to the torch again with domi fleet as our primary doctrine.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15924
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 22:04:13 -
[113] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:baltec1 wrote:What a silly thread. Coming from a guy that has never actually flown a BS. The nerve.
Turns out he has. Two poorly fitted PVE battleships that were killed by a solo destroyer and a fleet with a token drake
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Azn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2015.05.18 23:34:11 -
[114] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Shot some red crosses in lowsec in my terrible BS and got owned by a Svipul.
I'm pretty pissed because I should have been able to beat him, after all I paid more for my ship and skills / awareness / experience mean nothing.
Here's what you should do if you're terrible. Don't train for battleships. In fact, don't train for anything bigger than a frigate.
Am I close? |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1241
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Posted - 2015.05.19 02:38:47 -
[115] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
FFS.
Because battleships do significantly more damage, and can receive more damage, that's why.
I don't really give 2 ***** about paper DPS myself. We're talking real time in game damage.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1132
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Posted - 2015.05.19 05:54:09 -
[116] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:What a silly thread.
I remember writing a post about for the SP invested t1 frigs are way better than t3 cruisers, but I think I forgot to hit post, and/or thought it was just too silly and deleted it... the longer this thread goes on the less silly it seems.
@ChainsawPlankto
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1216
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Posted - 2015.05.19 06:49:39 -
[117] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship. Dismissed as circumstantial.
Perhaps some hard evidence?
Or should I say some MORE since you ignored the golem stomping ALL THE THINGS.
Also, dismissing Baltecs advice on battleships is like ignoring a doctor in favour of listening to the guy in the park shouting at the trees... |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 07:55:56 -
[118] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Theoretic fleets??? Battleship fleets are REAL dude 
Paper Dps? They DO put out a lot of dps... is pretty easy to compensate for tracking or similar in a fleet, which means your apparent paper dps suddenly starts smashing all the little cruisers.
No Worries
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
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Posted - 2015.05.19 08:20:37 -
[119] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship. Dismissed as circumstantial. Perhaps some hard evidence?Or should I say some MORE since you ignored the golem stomping ALL THE THINGS. Also, dismissing Baltecs advice on battleships is like ignoring a doctor in favour of listening to the guy in the park shouting at the trees...
I didn't dismiss him out a lack of respect. I respect all of the folks on this forum, but his reply was off topic. I don't care what you fit the ship with, or for what role. I am just saying it isn't the ship the designers make it out to be. They are fun to fly, but are largely impractical for too much of the game. Especially for the skill points required. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
611
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 08:23:03 -
[120] - Quote
best thing i ever done was train battleship to lvl 5, fck t3's when you have marauders and blops
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15931
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 09:31:26 -
[121] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I didn't dismiss him out a lack of respect. I respect all of the folks on this forum, but his reply was off topic. I don't care what you fit the ship with, or for what role. I am just saying it isn't the ship the designers make it out to be. They are fun to fly, but are largely impractical for too much of the game. Especially for the skill points required.
How was it off topic?
You said fly destroyers and BC, I said battleships will crush them. That is entirely on topic.
Also how are they impractical?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Switch Savage
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
82
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 10:05:21 -
[122] - Quote
I have only recently got into BS PvP but been having fun along with reasonable success in the Dominix. The only issue i have with them is the outright miserable lock time on anything smaller than a cruiser. Whilst Sebo's are an option the mids are very precious for much needed utility and you can rarely afford the luxury to fit one. That said they are not platforms to be taking out frigates and they might end up being too strong if you buffed the lock time.
Perhaps I am wearing rose tinted glasses however since the Domi is clearly one of the best choices for solo/small gang, (good application/good slot layout) but i have yet to think they are bad in anyway with well thought out fits. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
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Posted - 2015.05.19 10:31:56 -
[123] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:I have only recently got into BS PvP but been having fun along with reasonable success in the Dominix. The only issue i have with them is the outright miserable lock time on anything smaller than a cruiser. Whilst Sebo's are an option the mids are very precious for much needed utility and you can rarely afford the luxury to fit one. That said they are not platforms to be taking out frigates and they might end up being too strong if you buffed the lock time.
Perhaps I am wearing rose tinted glasses however since the Domi is clearly one of the best choices for solo/small gang, (good application/good slot layout) but i have yet to think they are bad in anyway with well thought out fits.
The Domi is in a class of its own. It is a really good ship. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16396
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Posted - 2015.05.19 10:51:18 -
[124] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:I have only recently got into BS PvP but been having fun along with reasonable success in the Dominix. The only issue i have with them is the outright miserable lock time on anything smaller than a cruiser. Whilst Sebo's are an option the mids are very precious for much needed utility and you can rarely afford the luxury to fit one. That said they are not platforms to be taking out frigates and they might end up being too strong if you buffed the lock time.
Perhaps I am wearing rose tinted glasses however since the Domi is clearly one of the best choices for solo/small gang, (good application/good slot layout) but i have yet to think they are bad in anyway with well thought out fits.
Check out the geddon
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
297
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Posted - 2015.05.19 12:16:29 -
[125] - Quote
Or the phoon. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 13:14:22 -
[126] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Check out the geddon
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Or the phoon.
Dont even get started on Pirate or Navy BattleShips....
No Worries
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
297
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Posted - 2015.05.19 13:58:50 -
[127] - Quote
No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1241
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 16:17:04 -
[128] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:afkalt wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:On paper damage and theoretical fleets, are impractical for this discussion. On paper, battleships put out a lot of damage. In practice, they are not so impressive.
Again, there are very few practical reasons to use a battleship. Yes you can fit one to be a flyswatter. But why not fly a destroyer? Or a battle cruiser?
Because both of those melt before a well fitted and flown battleship. Dismissed as circumstantial. Perhaps some hard evidence?Or should I say some MORE since you ignored the golem stomping ALL THE THINGS. Also, dismissing Baltecs advice on battleships is like ignoring a doctor in favour of listening to the guy in the park shouting at the trees... I didn't dismiss him out a lack of respect. I respect all of the folks on this forum, but his reply was off topic. I don't care what you fit the ship with, or for what role. I am just saying it isn't the ship the designers make it out to be. They are fun to fly, but are largely impractical for too much of the game. Especially for the skill points required.
But you endorse the big BC's, which take 95% of the SP to effectively fly as a BS. Brilliant. I can see you sat down and did the math on this.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15932
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 16:21:39 -
[129] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible.
You missed out the mega, hype, apoc, scorpion, pest, navy pest, navy mega, kronos, golem and so on. Hell even the old maelstrom and rohk alpha fleets are still very viable in low and highsec wars.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
615
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 17:24:36 -
[130] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible. You missed out the mega, hype, apoc, scorpion, pest, navy pest, navy mega, kronos, golem and so on. Hell even the old maelstrom and rohk alpha fleets are still very viable in low and highsec wars.
Ffs why does everyone forget the vargur, navy apoc, vindicator, paladin and phoon fleet issue
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
265
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 18:07:01 -
[131] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible.
I dont see how you can dismiss the vindi. |
Klaus Tylar
Tylar United Freight
103
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 19:22:19 -
[132] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible.
I find your lack of Rokh on that list quite disturbing. |
Cetaphil Thrace
Mikagami
27
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 21:27:07 -
[133] - Quote
I honestly don't know about you OP, but if a frig is approaching my Mach, its dead before it can get 50km. If not it will quickly die to drones. As for multiple frigs, well same fate cause it only takes one shot from the mach. just sayin |
Valkin Mordirc
1006
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 23:29:30 -
[134] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:No i think thats about it, domi, geddon and phoon, maybe raven. From navy an pirate stuff navy domi, mach and rattler - rest is terrible.
So Bhalgorn, Vindi, Mach, from the private line are ****?
....Why?
#DeleteTheWeak
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Derrick Diggler
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 00:05:23 -
[135] - Quote
This is such a silly thread. but ok.
So battleships are horrible and should not be trained.... Battleship fleets will get obliterated EVERY time by t3 fleets ....
Imperium : Dominix doctrine after Mega doctrine. Staples for any large fight. We have dunked quite a few t3 fleets. Just saying.
TRI : Rattlesnake doctrine
Provi Block : Nightmare doctrine
NC. (or thereabouts) : Raven doctrine
PL: TFI doctrine
Lots of people flying Machariels as well. Either mixed in or as a stand alone.
Also navy apocs are quite popular (I know CO2 flies those). Probably missing a few too.
To say battleships are bad because you do not like them is ... silly ... like this thread ... |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp.
Mordus Angels
70
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 03:25:22 -
[136] - Quote
Delete T3 anything, and remove bonused heavy and sentry drones from smaller ship classes.
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 09:33:22 -
[137] - Quote
All the navy and pirate BS have theyre strengths and uses (yes even the nestor... a bill isk hull tho lol)
My only issue with BS's are theyre vulnerability to Bombs, and slow allign/warp in general ... Everything else is just meta
No Worries
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 20:55:06 -
[138] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:All the navy and pirate BS have theyre strengths and uses (yes even the nestor... a bill isk hull tho lol)
My only issue with BS's are theyre vulnerability to Bombs, and slow allign/warp in general ... Everything else is just meta
Armour BS fleets don't worry about bombs and align/warp times are easily delt with.
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Eridon Hermetz
Ghosts'n Stuff
31
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 21:04:25 -
[139] - Quote
see the light guys , and fly black ops , they are completely fine in the current meta properly fitted/flyed !
how to not fly trough gate and lost time ? black ops and their ability to jump directly on top of your target ! bwahahaha |
Shin Katsumoto
Vulcan Industries
Alternate Allegiance
5
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 22:08:13 -
[140] - Quote
Battleships are large loot pinatas and CCP recently said that they will not be improving them so I guess they want them to be loot pinatas? And it makes sense too since many people want to fly a large shiny ship because it is large and shiny so that makes them the perfect loot pinatas.
They should have much better tank than they do. |
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:12:53 -
[141] - Quote
Seeing as how speed plays such a large role in tanking of this game, battleships tank the least from aggregate damage in any fight. Frigates, because of a smaller sig rad and possibly faster speed tank the most in aggregate damage.
To answer the fleet of battleships v. the fleet of frigates question. A fleet of battleships would have to fit specifically to shoot smaller ships to survive (obviously) However when fleet compositions change with a mix of smaller and larger (non battleships), the battleship fleet's chances of winning drop exponentially.
In other words if a battlship fits to fight frigates, it will die to larger ships.
Obvious exceptions include: drone boats, ships with tracking and neut bonuses. The battleships without such bonuses become huge liabilities.
The disadvantage is not the fit, but how sig/speed effect damage. For the skill points smaller ships can tanke easier than larger ships because they should take less damage. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1062
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 10:11:35 -
[142] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Seeing as how speed plays such a large role in tanking of this game, battleships tank the least from aggregate damage in any fight. Frigates, because of a smaller sig rad and possibly faster speed tank the most in aggregate damage.
To answer the fleet of battleships v. the fleet of frigates question. A fleet of battleships would have to fit specifically to shoot smaller ships to survive (obviously) However when fleet compositions change with a mix of smaller and larger (non battleships), the battleship fleet's chances of winning drop exponentially.
In other words if a battlship fits to fight frigates, it will die to larger ships.
Obvious exceptions include: drone boats, ships with tracking and neut bonuses. The battleships without such bonuses become huge liabilities.
The disadvantage is not the fit, but how sig/speed effect damage. For the skill points smaller ships can tanke easier than larger ships because they should take less damage.
If 2 such fleets collide and the BS pilots aren't completely braindead, then frigs will die by the second due to webs and paints. You can outrun the tracking of one BS, but you can't keep transversal up on a gang of them while dualwebbed and dualpainted.
Just Huginn/Rapier/Loki DDD up for drone bunny assign, free fire on frigs :D No, frigs don't tank through 150 warrior IIs, and smartbombing frigs are rare. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 10:38:03 -
[143] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:All the navy and pirate BS have theyre strengths and uses (yes even the nestor... a bill isk hull tho lol)
My only issue with BS's are theyre vulnerability to Bombs, and slow allign/warp in general ... Everything else is just meta
Armour BS fleets don't worry about bombs and align/warp times are easily delt with.
Depends on the number of bombs
And i mean mainly for moving from system to system (finding fights), JB's and titans arent available all the time
Aza Ebanu wrote:Seeing as how speed plays such a large role in tanking of this game, battleships tank the least from aggregate damage in any fight. Frigates, because of a smaller sig rad and possibly faster speed tank the most in aggregate damage.
To answer the fleet of battleships v. the fleet of frigates question. A fleet of battleships would have to fit specifically to shoot smaller ships to survive (obviously) However when fleet compositions change with a mix of smaller and larger (non battleships), the battleship fleet's chances of winning drop exponentially.
In other words if a battlship fits to fight frigates, it will die to larger ships.
Obvious exceptions include: drone boats, ships with tracking and neut bonuses. The battleships without such bonuses become huge liabilities.
The disadvantage is not the fit, but how sig/speed effect damage. For the skill points smaller ships can tanke easier than larger ships because they should take less damage.
 duuuuuuuuuuude!!! what are you on?
A fleet BS will (at least) have 10 to 15 TIMES the hitpoints of the best tanked frigate... Better Logistic support... And support ships that will allow said battleships to pwn every frigate that comes close.... And thats not refitting at all to deal with smaller ships....
But heres the main reason why battleships dont worry about frigates... MOST can at the very least field a flight of light drones (no bonuses)... multiply that by the number of battleships... assign to say.... a hic? Lach? Hug?and suddenly you have Hundreds of drones buzzing around your head.
Most battleships wont even waste the ammo to shoot you.
No Worries
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15940
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:12:38 -
[144] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:Depends on the number of bombs
It would take over 100 bombs to take out an armour BS fleet.
ChromeStriker wrote:And i mean mainly for moving from system to system (finding fights), JB's and titans arent available all the time
I have BS that give assault frigates a run for their money.
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Vibiana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:58:48 -
[145] - Quote
You mean meta/t2 fit domi?
Sure it is cheap and bang of the buck.
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
895
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:03:03 -
[146] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Depends on the number of bombs It would take over 100 bombs to take out an armour BS fleet. ChromeStriker wrote:And i mean mainly for moving from system to system (finding fights), JB's and titans arent available all the time I have BS that give assault frigates a run for their money.
... 48 ish against max tanked abbadons... in 8 wings of 6....
yes yes we all have a nano battleship... tbh however much fun that is... would rather go that fast and not waste the slots... a guy can dream
No Worries
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1241
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Posted - 2015.05.22 14:39:03 -
[147] - Quote
A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1031
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 17:37:07 -
[148] - Quote
I just want to say,
I've been on a BS roam where we had a mixed fleet (Kitchen Sink) of random BS. 8 to 10 of us, I can't really remember.
We came across a 15 to 18 man frigate fleet with 1 RR Domi.
What I do remember is, the frigates popped so fast, you couldn't call primaries. Just target a random and start shooting.
Saved the Domi for last. With a couple bumps, it was all over before he made it back to the gate.
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 18:56:05 -
[149] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Seeing as how speed plays such a large role in tanking of this game, battleships tank the least from aggregate damage in any fight. Frigates, because of a smaller sig rad and possibly faster speed tank the most in aggregate damage.
To answer the fleet of battleships v. the fleet of frigates question. A fleet of battleships would have to fit specifically to shoot smaller ships to survive (obviously) However when fleet compositions change with a mix of smaller and larger (non battleships), the battleship fleet's chances of winning drop exponentially.
In other words if a battlship fits to fight frigates, it will die to larger ships.
Obvious exceptions include: drone boats, ships with tracking and neut bonuses. The battleships without such bonuses become huge liabilities.
The disadvantage is not the fit, but how sig/speed effect damage. For the skill points smaller ships can tanke easier than larger ships because they should take less damage. If 2 such fleets collide and the BS pilots aren't completely braindead, then frigs will die by the second due to webs and paints. You can outrun the tracking of one BS, but you can't keep transversal up on a gang of them while dualwebbed and dualpainted. Just Huginn/Rapier/Loki DDD up for drone bunny assign, free fire on frigs :D No, frigs don't tank through 150 warrior IIs, and smartbombing frigs are rare.
1. Falcon jam the webbing BS, sensor damp the BS.
2. It wont live long enough to web anything. Battleships cannot tank aggregate damage effectively.
3. Rinse repeat |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:00:02 -
[150] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.
It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament.
I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". |
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:41:21 -
[151] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Falcon jam the webbing BS, sensor damp the BS.
Falcon ruins the day of just about any ship although battleships fair better than smaller ships. Thankfully falcons are a rare sight these days.
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Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
64
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 20:10:50 -
[152] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Falcon jam the webbing BS, sensor damp the BS.
Falcon ruins the day of just about any ship although battleships fair better than smaller ships. Thankfully falcons are a rare sight these days.
its because between the compensation skills and the nerfing the falcon took its just not worth bringing a falcon alt. Which is why everyone has a booster alt instead. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 21:57:54 -
[153] - Quote
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Falcon jam the webbing BS, sensor damp the BS.
Falcon ruins the day of just about any ship although battleships fair better than smaller ships. Thankfully falcons are a rare sight these days. its because between the compensation skills and the nerfing the falcon took its just not worth bringing a falcon alt. Which is why everyone has a booster alt instead.
It doesn't matter. Any e war cruiser will ruin the whole fleet's day. Could a battleship sensor jam a frig? sure, but how specialized would you have to be to pull that off?
Second death to battleship tactic:
Fit a smartbomb on your cruiser
CCP quote:
"Their medium size offers more room for various functional outfitting, and extra punch capable of ripping though unprepared battleships. Their weapons are also light enough to decently track and destroy frigates." |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:06:56 -
[154] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Gh0stBust3rs wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Falcon jam the webbing BS, sensor damp the BS.
Falcon ruins the day of just about any ship although battleships fair better than smaller ships. Thankfully falcons are a rare sight these days. its because between the compensation skills and the nerfing the falcon took its just not worth bringing a falcon alt. Which is why everyone has a booster alt instead. It doesn't matter. Any e war cruiser will ruin the whole fleet's day. Could a battleship sensor jam a frig? sure, but how specialized would you have to be to pull that off? Second death to battleship tactic: Fit a smartbomb on your cruiser CCP quote: "Their medium size offers more room for various functional outfitting, and extra punch capable of ripping though unprepared battleships. Their weapons are also light enough to decently track and destroy frigates."
What exactly is a cruiser gang fitted with smartbombs going to do to a fleet of blaster megathrons other than melt?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:11:32 -
[155] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote: duuuuuuuuuuude!!! what are you on? A fleet BS will (at least) have 10 to 15 TIMES the hitpoints of the best tanked frigate... Better Logistic support... And support ships that will allow said battleships to pwn every frigate that comes close.... And thats not refitting at all to deal with smaller ships.... But heres the main reason why battleships dont worry about frigates... MOST can at the very least field a flight of light drones (no bonuses)... multiply that by the number of battleships... assign to say.... a hic? Lach? Hug?and suddenly you have Hundreds of drones buzzing around your head. Most battleships wont even waste the ammo to shoot you.
The best tanked frigate will only take < 1/2 of the battleship's damage. Your know nothing about fitting smaller ships. A cruiser could wipe out a battleships drones in seconds. BCs can tank almost as well and gank as well as battleships. In addition to their smaller sig, they can mitigate the aggregate damage of the battleship fleet. Yes a battleship better tank at least that well because, it can not mitigate any damage with it's sig. No matter what hits it, it will likely hit for full damage.
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
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Posted - 2015.05.22 22:27:25 -
[156] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:]
What exactly is a cruiser gang fitted with smartbombs going to do to a fleet of blaster megathrons other than melt?
It doesn't matter. People always hid behind the Megathron/Domi. Those battleships make the mpst sense, but the majority of BS is this game don't. Megathrons have perfect gank, perfect tank, and a good slot configuration. This is rare among the battleship line up.
However, they rarely get a lock on smaller ships. And a falcon will make it a chancy, but one sided fight here. And if anyone ever used a sensor damp on it... The Mega would have to sacrifice speed or web and therefore will never catch it's prey. Its a cool but very needy ship. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:28:14 -
[157] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
The best tanked frigate will only take < 1/2 of the battleship's damage.
Half the damage from a battleships weapons is still enough to alpha a lot of frigates
Aza Ebanu wrote:
A cruiser could wipe out a battleships drones in seconds.
And said cruiser will be getting slammed by the battleships main weapons.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
BCs can tank almost as well and gank as well as battleships.
Gonna need to see this BC and fit.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:31:08 -
[158] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:]
What exactly is a cruiser gang fitted with smartbombs going to do to a fleet of blaster megathrons other than melt? It doesn't matter. People always hid behind the Megathron/Domi. Those battleships make the mpst sense, but the majority of BS is this game don't. Megathrons have perfect gank, perfect tank, and a good slot configuration. This is rare among the battleship line up. However, they rarely get a lock on smaller ships. And a falcon will make it a chancy, but one sided fight here. And if anyone ever used a sensor damp on it... The Mega would have to sacrifice speed or web and therefore will never catch it's prey. Its a cool but very needy ship.
And what is your falcon going to do when faced with a golem?
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:21:29 -
[159] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:]
What exactly is a cruiser gang fitted with smartbombs going to do to a fleet of blaster megathrons other than melt? It doesn't matter. People always hid behind the Megathron/Domi. Those battleships make the mpst sense, but the majority of BS is this game don't. Megathrons have perfect gank, perfect tank, and a good slot configuration. This is rare among the battleship line up. However, they rarely get a lock on smaller ships. And a falcon will make it a chancy, but one sided fight here. And if anyone ever used a sensor damp on it... The Mega would have to sacrifice speed or web and therefore will never catch it's prey. Its a cool but very needy ship. And what is your falcon going to do when faced with a golem?
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:43:29 -
[160] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.
Translation:
You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
65
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:56:32 -
[161] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.
Translation: You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.
Come on now Baltec1 The newbie doesnt understand that this is a paper rock scissors game.
Yes you can fit some smartbombs to cruisers to kill things like drones. But what about webs scrams and target painters all of which make you easier to hit?
What about the fact that if you swiss army knife your fits as much as he is talking you dont actually have the damage to kill a bs?
BCs sig radius are big enough to be easily track by L guns.
I am almost tempted to let him pick a battleship for me to fit and he can bring 5 friends and we shall see who wins. |
Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
65
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:26:28 -
[162] - Quote
btw battleships are supposed to be high sp plaforms. just because most nullsec fleet fits are lower sp to get more numbers doesnt mean you shouldnt aim higher if you want to solo or small gang with battleships. |
Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:47:54 -
[163] - Quote
I'm an small ship pilot .. check my killboard, I fly mostly frigs. But I must say flying in a Baltec1 megathron ganked was one of the most stupid fun I ever had .. .100 Battleships with an awesome range, you melt stuff ... Most new player just rush to fast into ships. Heck even after flying tons of small **** I even are not competent in a slicer for example ... that small laser train ;) So I conclude the slicer is **** because .. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 04:17:24 -
[164] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.
Translation: You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.
You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 04:21:51 -
[165] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.
Translation: You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options. You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.
Make a fit and say what skills are needed for a cruiser and see if any of the BS supporters can match it (with skill im mor etalking about time to train from new made character)
Make a baseline for what you think is worth the train and compare that to what a BS need for equal benefit. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15943
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 04:55:47 -
[166] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.
It takes just as long to skill into t2 cruisers/frigates and even longer for things like command ships and t3. SP is a non argument. You want long skill trains? You can have the SP to fly a competent raven in the time it takes to train caldari dread V
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Traejun DiSanctis
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
130
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:34:15 -
[167] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.
Translation: You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options. You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.
It very much depends on what you're doing. Many L4's and pretty much all L5's are best done in a Battleship. There are also certain other PvE endeavors in which a Battleship is the more efficient choice - full clearing (not blitzing) missions come to mind.
That said, I generally agree with you. The time investment required to train into the hull and necessary weapons/modules is better applied to getting into smaller T2 hulls, which are inherently more efficient in terms of the SP:Productivity ratio. When I first got into EvE, I trained into battleships because I thought it was the only way to do L4's and L5's (mind you, this was before T3 Strategic Cruisers). In hindsight, I should have trained into HAC's earlier on. |
Valkin Mordirc
1020
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 09:02:59 -
[168] - Quote
This guy went from
All Battleships suck
All T1 Battleships Suck, my experience proves it
All T1 exclude drone and Gal Battleships suck
All Battleships suck because the SP req is to high
Everyone should instead train to t3's and HAC's because it's...easier....lol
Tis a Silly thread indeed.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1033
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 12:02:41 -
[169] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.
It takes just as long to skill into t2 cruisers/frigates and even longer for things like command ships and t3. SP is a non argument. You want long skill trains? You can have the SP to fly a competent raven in the time it takes to train caldari dread V
You can't beat a stupidity tank on the forums. This BS hater is in GODMODE. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 21:36:20 -
[170] - Quote
I don't see the problem here. This is good advice based on the game design principles. No ship has a superior tank except speed and signature. That is why CCP had to re-design speed/sig tanking. Speed/sig tanking is still one of the best ways to mitigate damage. Therefore, battleships tank the least because, they have the highest sig and slowest speed. Ship HP mean less than the ability to reduce damage by speed and sig. So players should stay in smaller ships, anything else is just a waste of skill points.
Everyone opposed to my post has the same things in common with their ideas:
1.Battleships need support (from smaller ships)
2. You have to fit it right (Anti speed modules)
3. It has to fit a bunch of tank (because it soaks up more damage than any other ship(cap ships excluded))
4. They are fine if they are (have natural bonus to anti speed/drones, tracking speed, or some other anti small ship )
5. No counter to cap ships except: "run for your lives".
6. SP requirements are higher for other ships if you want to fly a battleship without core skills & weapons.... (no need to comment)
7. Snark
That's all they've got. Typical responses from the "play the game my way" crowd. They must trade battleships in the market and don't want the bad press to slow down their sales.
If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15949
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 23:40:07 -
[171] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?
They aren't.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 00:19:26 -
[172] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?
They aren't.
Not according to the feedback from this post. |
Valkin Mordirc
1022
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 03:16:43 -
[173] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?
They aren't. Not according to the feedback from this post.
I thought you said you didn't want a solo boat?
Your a pancake man,
Flip floppity.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1245
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 04:53:22 -
[174] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship".
1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships.
2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck".
My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 07:53:01 -
[175] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". 1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships. 2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. 3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck". My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.
Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15958
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 08:21:59 -
[176] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 16:01:43 -
[177] - Quote
They aren't. [/quote]
I cried a little bit when I saw that. Tears of joy. Just, there was something so beautiful about that. I am completely amazed by the skill and fortitude displayed by that gentlemen. I didn't know such a thing were possible. Especially with such a thing as missiles, I hear so often that missiles are a joke in PvP but that man freaking made it look easy.
I still can't quite understand what I just saw. Like, all that massive DPS and yet he managed to keep his shields up. And that smartbomb he never used even when surrounded by drones, like did he just decide clearing out enemy drones would make it too easy???
I am completely and utterly flaberghasted. Much respect for that man.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Perihelion Olenard
208
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Posted - 2015.05.24 18:16:16 -
[178] - Quote
That's a few billion of isk into the ship and modules. In the video he said he lost marauders to fleets with logistics, neuts, or capital ships/black ops. Still, they can be impressive against the right fleet composition. That can be said of any combat ship, though.
I fly a Kronos, but it is a PvE fit. I'm still debating whether to train Marauders 5 and have one for PvP once I get back into it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15965
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 21:19:55 -
[179] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:That's a few billion of isk into the ship and modules. In the video he said he lost marauders to fleets with logistics, neuts, or capital ships/black ops. Still, they can be impressive against the right fleet composition. That can be said of any combat ship, though.
I fly a Kronos, but it is a PvE fit. I'm still debating whether to train Marauders 5 and have one for PvP once I get back into it.
Do it, you wont regret it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
2429
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 06:08:43 -
[180] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
As an experienced highsec douchebag I can attest to this being a totally unrealistic scenario. The typical highsec battleship fleet consists of Vindicators/Navy Megathrons/Typhoon fleet issues with Bhaalgorns/Armageddons with Guardian logistics. They pack so much webbing and neuting power and hit point buffer that even a large, organized assault frigate gang wouldn't go near them with a ten foot barge pole.
And because neutral alts and knowing who can shoot you any substantial fleet sees an opposing fleet coming 95% of the time. Even if a a frigate fleet caught a straggler from a battleship fleet because they by chance didn't notice the main fleet they'd bail immediately when 10 more faction battleships and remote reps landed.
Battleship doctrines (when the involved parties actually have defined doctrines) are still fairly dominant in "serious" highsec engagements. The only thing more common is armor T3s.
When I go to the home system of some other mercenary alliance the thing I expect to see them bring out to shoot back is vindicators and guardians, not enyos. |
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1245
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 15:57:18 -
[181] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". 1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships. 2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. 3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck". My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web. Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people.
I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1832
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 17:30:50 -
[182] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.
Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 18:58:09 -
[183] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone. Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle.
They are all waiting for his Ancillary Shield Booster to reload, not even thinking that he could be using a normal booster + cap booster !
He was also very good at taking some armor dmg to make people think he almost died (even if not planned that way)
When you see a heavy shield tank start taking armor dmg you dont leave and cut your losses you throw all you have at it to get that kill |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
64
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:12:09 -
[184] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break. It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament. I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship". 1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships. 2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. 3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs. Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck". My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web. Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships. First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people. I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1245
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Posted - 2015.05.26 04:05:18 -
[185] - Quote
Quote:...
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
Its actually an excellent analogy. It would take 2 hours to walk to work at 4 mph or 15 minutes driving the speed limit. Doing a level 4 mission in a Vargur vs a Hurricane would produce a very similar ratio of completion times.
A situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game has already been presented, bashing a POS in a C1 - C4 wormhole, or hisec. level 4 missions are another. Running sites in a c3 wormhole is another. Rattng in many low and null systems is another. Incursions are another. There are numerous killmails where a lone battleship is the victor.
And dont try to change the argument to t1 battleship, as everything above a t1 battleship requires training BS in the first place.
Your answer to my air conditioning analogy is yet another strawman fallacy. You do not have to rent your dwelling in AZ. It is neither a legal nor actual requirement to live there.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15966
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 04:16:10 -
[186] - Quote
Aza Eban wrote:
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
Any t1 or t2 cruiser vs rapid heavy raven. The raven will moonwalk its way to victory without breaking a sweat.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Cetaphil Thrace
Mikagami
28
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 17:37:30 -
[187] - Quote
Hell yes awesome video! |
Perihelion Olenard
208
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Posted - 2015.05.26 18:46:29 -
[188] - Quote
That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1659
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:36:45 -
[189] - Quote
Either way, an excellent video. A well made fake, as BS's obviously suck. Right?
The Golem vid was simply enthralling also.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15977
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 03:31:55 -
[190] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. It looks like he was fit to be in a fleet with logistics.
It was trying to bump the hype off the gate.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
78
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 05:17:49 -
[191] - Quote
Just because I cant help myself this id----newb in need of training joined IRC... He is doomed to fail now.
Lost another Typhoon as well https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/46920196/ |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16007
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 10:18:35 -
[192] - Quote
Yet another pve fit
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 10:30:29 -
[193] - Quote
Battleships are so bad it was a T2 Battleship and a frigate using battleship weapons that killed him :P |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
897
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 13:42:09 -
[194] - Quote
the real travesty is the T1 fit and NO rigs :(
No Worries
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Cetaphil Thrace
Mikagami
28
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Posted - 2015.05.31 19:23:03 -
[195] - Quote
That fit was terrible, and he wasn't killed by a frig, it was a team including a bs |
Walter Pryst
Mediocracy
0
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Posted - 2015.06.01 00:42:15 -
[196] - Quote
So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:
* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot
* up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this
* damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping
You can call me Walt
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 20:52:54 -
[197] - Quote
Walter Pryst wrote:So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:
* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot
* up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this
* damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping
Well thought. |
Devasha Detrasha
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.08 09:08:16 -
[198] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:big miker wrote:big miker wrote:
They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me. You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ? Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse). If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills. When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?
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SHADOWWALKER shadows
Haight Industries LLC
Absolute Damage Inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.06.08 11:07:06 -
[199] - Quote
You clearly have not been in a marauder, train for a kronos with t2 fit and you will be amazed at its effectivness(talking in terms of pve) over 1000 dps for my kronos on another toon of mine. I live in wormholes and use the kronos to solo c4 sites which is making me easily 200mil an hour (does depend on the number of combat sites are in the hole at that given time. Some other examples of battleships being used in pvp though, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parsL-K9l6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHdM0sqLDk and an example of how my kronos fitted(similar but not exact) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waACuI-T3X8 |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
299
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 14:19:44 -
[200] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Devasha Detrasha wrote:
Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse).
If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills.
When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.
So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?
Heavy neuts will insta-cap a frig and normally 2 cycle a cruiser. The catch with heavies is long cycle time. A frig with a nos will be able to keep cap managable under heavy neut. A cap boosted cruiser or frig will also be able to manage. However, if they have a cap dependent active tank they will start to run into trouble.
Its best used at neuting tackle right as they come in to 20-24km as they will have mwd shut down and will drift into you. Very easy to kill at that point.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 15:34:10 -
[201] - Quote
Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.
Nothing wrong with a sizable group of people unhappy with content letting their sub lapse for a week to demonstrate this. I think it is in everyone's interest to send a message, rather than let enough straws build up to break the camel for good.
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Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
638
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:13:50 -
[202] - Quote
Battleships are the victims of cumulative module nerfs:
ECM.
Nos.
Webs.
These utility modules meant that the pure slot-advantage of a BS allowed them to be useful and effective where frigates/cruisers could not. I'm not saying these modules shouldn't have been nerfed, just that the consequences are now apparent.
Now they have weapons that can only hit other BS or heavily tackled smaller targets, they are too hard to move long distances and logistics for re-arming a fleet with lost BS are insanely impractical.
Long story short battleships don't have anything they do well enough to justify them being used over HAC's or attack battlecruisers. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:49:17 -
[203] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
I applaud your pointing out the stupidity of some of the statements in the thread but the fact remains that other than drone boats, HAC's and T3's make up 90% of eve fleet combat. It's not an argument; If BS where better, they'd be used more... they aren't, so they don't get used in PVP.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
(from this dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla?_ga=1.32444796.391044756.1431445780)
Only Cruiser (assume this means t1) and HAC do more overall dmg in PvP than battleship, T3 Cruisers are slightly behind and frigates behind there again is longer behind battleship than battleship is behind HAC.
Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
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Miss Moist
I is a Ferret
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 01:40:45 -
[204] - Quote
Got to wonder how much of the BS damage is made up entirely of the Dominix and POCO bashing. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
91
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 05:37:24 -
[205] - Quote
SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote:
Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP:
Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
|
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
91
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 05:42:59 -
[206] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.
Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. |
BeeHaw Bocadotsu
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 06:37:30 -
[207] - Quote
LOLOL, Dis killboard gave me back my 6 pack abs, LOLOLOLOL
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1353
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 11:14:28 -
[208] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash.
If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1088
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 11:17:51 -
[209] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too.
Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go.
Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 11:34:14 -
[210] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash. If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck
Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong.
T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps).
Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game.
If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad? |
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Eridon Hermetz
Ghosts'n Stuff
Drama Sutra
33
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 11:47:39 -
[211] - Quote
IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD)
T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
302
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 14:51:41 -
[212] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote: Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP: Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
How exactly is it a liability to pvp in one? My typhoon begs to differ, both t1 and FI. Also you have insurance, after insurance a t1 BS costs roughly 60-80m depending on fit. Show me a cruiser that can shoot 800-1k dps out to 60km, that has 100k+ EHP, 24km neut(s) and can fit an MJD to escape from things faster than you. All the while costing 60-80m. You won't find one.
Just the past couple days ive killed t3d, AF, and faction cruisers in my phoon. While doing this ive been chased by blobs, fought linked ships, got around gate camps and avoided many attempts at being probed down (70 SS FI phoon.. heh gl prober). So, ive avoided all the usual compliants about BS and came out on top.
Im sry your PVE phoon keeps dying because you dont know how to be aware of your surroundings, but that is not the BS' fault, but the pilot flying it.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
RAZOR Alliance
565
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 15:00:21 -
[213] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:So, the real question is:
What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls.
Double their EHP. For starters.
Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Quantum Singularities
Half Massed
57
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 16:38:59 -
[214] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Double their EHP. For starters.
Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds. If you go that route, you'd have to increase repair/boost amount, otherwise the Hyperion and Maelstrom might fall behind horribly
That said, I've had some success with battleships in PvP with mixed fleets with battleships as support. No, you probably can't catch a cruiser gang with your battleship gang, but the cruiser wing of your gang can catch them and then you drop the hammer with your Armageddon, Megathron or Tempest. They're good when speed isn't an issue, and when you have stasis webs and sometimes target painters to make sure your guns can hit. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:06:49 -
[215] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...
Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash. If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong. T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps). Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game. If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad?
Read the OP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:29:30 -
[216] - Quote
But it's wrong....
Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.
You see a good number of battleship videos where they're smashing entire gangs and that's ONE battleship. The usually don't have more because everyone would just run away. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:19:27 -
[217] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.
Indeed this is true. Being less agile in EVE means being a punching bag. Again VNI has an advantage that although a battleship can do more damage, makes it less preferred. In other words the risks aren't really worth it. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:26:54 -
[218] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go. Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away.
Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
|
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:05:01 -
[219] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
The isk argument goes out the door when you start flying t2/t3 cruisers, after insurance they cost 2-3 or more times as much as T1 battleships.
For SP invested i once again ask you to show us a Cruiser (t2/t3) fitting with X number of SP so the people defending battleships can counter you argument (that you felt the need to make this post for)
Give us a baseline for ISK/SP/Fitting (dps/tank/whatever). |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1088
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:19:18 -
[220] - Quote
You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better) |
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:31:39 -
[221] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Ignoring the last 10 pages.
If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.
The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.
If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs. Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too. Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go. Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away. Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
What isk and skills? They cost less than a HAC after insurance and fitting and can be flown (much) quicker.
They could do with more off-grid mobility, i.e. travel help. to make them less annoying to roam with, that's about it. That's also what's really holding them back from their full potential as it stops folks taking them out as it shortens the potential route over the course of a fixed time window. i.e. not fun.
Naff all to do with them not having enough grunt once they land though.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:08:09 -
[222] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better)
Yes I agree that you shouldn't discuss this issue on this forum. You are too busy reading kill boards instead of the OP. All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bashing. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9173
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:32:23 -
[223] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD)
T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents
But it's the same with most all subcaps. You train T1 to train T2. T2 is usually better than T1, at least for specific roles. T1's are insurable thus far-far cheaper to operate. imo this thread makes absolutely no sense. OP doesn't like T1 BS', but he says his opinion doesn't apply to Marauders. So don't train BS but training for a Marauder is ok? How do you do that w/o training for T1 BS first?? Have you even flown any BS on the test server, OP? This thread just seems like a long troll. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 02:02:21 -
[224] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD)
T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents But it's the same with most all subcaps. You train T1 to train T2. T2 is usually better than T1, at least for specific roles. T1's are insurable thus far-far cheaper to operate. imo this thread makes absolutely no sense. OP doesn't like T1 BS', but he says his opinion doesn't apply to Marauders. So don't train BS but training for a Marauder is ok? How do you do that w/o training for T1 BS first?? Have you even flown any BS on the test server, OP? This thread just seems like a long troll.
When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE? |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 02:53:20 -
[225] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE?
To kill entire fleets alone.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 03:02:33 -
[226] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE?
Find a combination of 2 sub Battleships that a will kill a good Marauder, |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 04:12:10 -
[227] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
Who is talking theory?
I have shown you a number of videos of battleships ripping apart up to 40 man fleets solo. Here is a solo typhoon and a raven vs your "superior fast tankers"
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16101
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 04:14:18 -
[228] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:RavenPaine wrote:So, the real question is:
What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls. Double their EHP. For starters. Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
You were saying?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
27
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 08:22:52 -
[229] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc
Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD)
T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)
my 2 cents
Would you engage my typhoon fleet?, i am not sure
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Eridon Hermetz
Ghosts'n Stuff
Drama Sutra
34
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 09:28:43 -
[230] - Quote
huehuehuehuehue !
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9194
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 10:04:45 -
[231] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:When and why would you fly a marauder over a another ship outside of PVE?
And you play..... EVE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUE8LWAUhSg
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Switch Savage
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
116
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 10:10:27 -
[232] - Quote
Aza Ebanu you can sit and say T1 Battleships are only useful for structure grinding. But to do so you have to flat out ignore the people out there every day using them successfully in solo and small gang environments. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
304
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 14:43:51 -
[233] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.
If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.
Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better) Yes I agree that you shouldn't discuss this issue on this forum. You are too busy reading kill boards instead of the OP. All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bashing.
Reviewing your KB is a good way to deteemine how much experience you have with the class in question (in your case, almost non-existant). Seriously, youre flying a BS with t1 fittings and then ***** about BS being bad?.. BS arent bad, youre just not skilled for them in the least.
To answer your question though
Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash.
PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD.
Ive already presented you an example in which you did not respond to, but responded to everyone elses. But ill try again. What other ship can get over 100k EHP, do 800-1200dps, fit an MJD, and fit heavy neuts? There isnt one that can do all of that at once. Except battleships.
The other thing to keep in mind is because BS are rarely seen rolling around solo, they are great bait ships. Someone sees a lonely BS and thinks "easy kill" when theyre in their 5-10 man gang. I get good fights that i may not get in something like a gila/ishtar/deimos etc because they know those ships are deadly to other cruisers/frigs. For BS, when they see it, they think someone like you (unskilled, lack of experience, t1 garbage) is flying it and will be easy to overwhelm.
When their tackle jackdaw or svipul die in 3 vollies they immediately regret their decisions and leave.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
604
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 17:20:56 -
[234] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:huehuehuehuehue !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Y4keqTV6w
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 23:17:19 -
[235] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:Aza Ebanu you can sit and say T1 Battleships are only useful for structure grinding. But to do so you have to flat out ignore the people out there every day using them successfully in solo and small gang environments.
Oh I don't doubt that Battleships can be successful in a fleet. or a gang for that matter. I just feel like battleships don't fulfill a role other ships could take and even be better at it. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 23:27:16 -
[236] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash. PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD.
That is provided your battleship's layout/role supports fitting neuts. .... |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
307
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 01:52:23 -
[237] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:All you have to do is figure out a reason to fly a battleship outside of PVE and high sec POS bash. PvP, more specifically, either solo or being supported by a gang. The dps/utility a BS brings with is very useful when fit properly. No cruiser can match heavy neuts, nor can they fit MJD. That is provided your battleship's layout/role supports fitting neuts. ....
Then don't use those battleship's to solo in. Not all battleships are viable in a solo role. Some work better in fleet settings, and require support ships. They can still fit MJD though, something cruisers cannot fit.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Kestral Anneto
The Founding Four
Fidelas Constans
66
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 07:28:15 -
[238] - Quote
the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb. |
Valkin Mordirc
1105
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 07:54:53 -
[239] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb.
The only thing that would fix is making it Battleships Online rather than Cruiser's online.
Shifting the balance from one side to the other is not balance your only tipping the scale to something else. The only thing you get from that is Power Creep
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kestral Anneto
The Founding Four
Fidelas Constans
66
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 08:00:56 -
[240] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:the easy way to fix battleships is give them a jump drive that has (max skill) range of 2.5LY and a Point defense system (High slot module), that has a set % chance of destroying an incoming bomb. The only thing that would fix is making it Battleships Online rather than Cruiser's online. Shifting the balance from one side to the other is not balance your only tipping the scale to something else. The only thing you get from that is Power Creep
Maybe, however, cruisers would still have a place (in this scenario). Solo PvP? Frigate/Dezzie. Small Gang? Cruiser/Maybe Battlecruiser. Big fleet actions? Battleships/Capital ships.
When you start getting 50+ people in a fleet, you SHOULD be aiming to use the best weapons platform for a prolonged fight, and that should be the larger ships.
As I see it, cruisers are for raiding, get in, mess your target/area up and get out again. |
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 08:27:33 -
[241] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland I'm surprised to see a person like you posting in a troll thread like this, cmon you know better. And stop trying to correct him everyone please. Everyone has their own way of doing things, there's no point in arguing with him about his way of viewing. Um does anyone know where the OP resides, I just like to drop in to say hi to em? |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 08:40:15 -
[242] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Stitch Kaneland I'm surprised to see a person like you posting in a troll thread like this, cmon you know better. And stop trying to correct him everyone please. Everyone has their own way of doing things, there's no point in arguing with him about his way of viewing. Um does anyone know where the OP resides, I just like to drop in to say hi to em?
The point of arguing is tha tpeople that later find this thread will have 10-15pages of why/how battleships are usefull instead of a 2page whine about them being useless :P |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 09:05:21 -
[243] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Stitch Kaneland I'm surprised to see a person like you posting in a troll thread like this, cmon you know better. And stop trying to correct him everyone please. Everyone has their own way of doing things, there's no point in arguing with him about his way of viewing. Um does anyone know where the OP resides, I just like to drop in to say hi to em? The point of arguing is tha tpeople that later find this thread will have 10-15pages of why/how battleships are usefull instead of a 2page whine about them being useless :P
Atm most already know that T1 BSs roles are mostly limited to PVE. If they want to know why then all they have to do is go to Stitch Kaneland's thread (it's in his signature)
As for PVP, MOST people that uses T1 BSs for pvp know HOW, WHEN, and WHERE to use them. This OP is one of the few who don't.
With the exception of the RHML platforms most turret based t1 BS's needs to be accompanied with other smaller ships to be successful in pvp, otherwise they'd get TDed, SDed, and ECMed like there's no tomorrow. But if it's solo with no ewar involvement then there is NO REASON for a competent BS pilot to lose to a smaller class ship.
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Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
702
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 10:02:10 -
[244] - Quote
I love my Megathron. It's brilliant.
I love my Macharial. It's brilliant.
I love my Typhoon. It's brilliant.
I love my Hyperion. It's brilliant.
I love my Raven. It's brilliant.
I love my Dominix. It's brilliant.
I love my Armageddon. It's brilliant.
I love my Rattlesnake. It's brilliant.
I love my Golem. It's brilliant.
I love my Kronos. It's brilliant.
The other battleships are all just a bit "meh" to me. I want to get intop flying a Tempest but I'm just not thrilled by it's lack of any focus.
Maybe the BS's are a little underpowered but not by much. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 20:41:55 -
[245] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
Atm most already know that T1 BSs roles are mostly limited to PVE. If they want to know why then all they have to do is go to Stitch Kaneland's thread (it's in his signature)
As for PVP, MOST people that uses T1 BSs for pvp know HOW, WHEN, and WHERE to use them. This OP is one of the few who don't.
With the exception of the RHML platforms most turret based t1 BS's needs to be accompanied with other smaller ships to be successful in pvp, otherwise they'd get TDed, SDed, and ECMed like there's no tomorrow. But if it's solo with no ewar involvement then there is NO REASON for a competent BS pilot to lose to a smaller class ship.
1. You say they are limited to PVE, yet you say that they have a very circumstantial use. Every ship has a circumstantial use.
2. No ship, below a battleship, needs to take all of the damage a large weapons has to go boom.
3. They can tank a smaller ship for a while, but not really T2/T3crusiers/BCs
4. Slow warp speed means you can not chase anything down, so you have to be a victim there unless you are in a gang in which, you might want to fly something else to not slow everyone else down.
5. They can be used in fleet as intimidation, but wouldn't really be successful in a blob as it can not mitigate most of the damage like a smaller faster ship can.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16124
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 21:16:10 -
[246] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
3. They can tank a smaller ship for a while, but not really T2/T3crusiers/BCs
There are a dozen videos in theis thread that shows your statement is not true.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
4. Slow warp speed means you can not chase anything down, so you have to be a victim there unless you are in a gang in which, you might want to fly something else to not slow everyone else down.
I out run assault frigates in my battleships. Getting them to warp as fast as a cruiser is very easy but they are good enough right out of the box for hunting stuff down.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
5. They can be used in fleet as intimidation, but wouldn't really be successful in a blob as it can not mitigate most of the damage like a smaller faster ship can.
The fleet that burned test out of fountain. Also known as the flight of the 900 megathrons.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 22:44:33 -
[247] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
3. They can tank a smaller ship for a while, but not really T2/T3crusiers/BCs
There are a dozen videos in theis thread that shows your statement is not true. Aza Ebanu wrote:
4. Slow warp speed means you can not chase anything down, so you have to be a victim there unless you are in a gang in which, you might want to fly something else to not slow everyone else down.
I out run assault frigates in my battleships. Getting them to warp as fast as a cruiser is very easy but they are good enough right out of the box for hunting stuff down. Aza Ebanu wrote:
5. They can be used in fleet as intimidation, but wouldn't really be successful in a blob as it can not mitigate most of the damage like a smaller faster ship can.
The fleet that burned test out of fountain. Also known as the flight of the 900 megathrons.
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
2. I've heard that Gallente Battleships have advantages. |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
606
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 23:04:36 -
[248] - Quote
Gonna post again.
You will lose fights like this if you don't train for Battleships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9rDDcT7nqY
That kind of fights is what i'm good and experienced at doing. So are you gonna be a whimp and not go into such fights just because someone can't figure out how to use Battleships like a pro and have to whine about it on the forums?
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16127
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 23:28:12 -
[249] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
You say BS are no good, we show you videos of said battleships ripping apart entire fleets of ships you consider better.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. I've heard that Gallente Battleships have advantages.
Matari have a ship that gets 11,300 alpha. Name a cruiser that can match that.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9367
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 23:46:12 -
[250] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
Because you're on dial-up?
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:08:52 -
[251] - Quote
Because Video = not on the topic. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 01:31:30 -
[252] - Quote
I saw your KB OP. That Phoon you flown looks pitiful. Even if you do not yet possess actual pvp skill, if you had a proper fit you should not have lost to that Svipul. There's no way I would engage a Phoon if I was in my Svipul mostly because I'm still a noob myself at pvp but also because at the very least I'm gonna assume it's fit something like this:
Decent T2 PVP Phoon fit
High Slots
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II with Inferno fury heavy missiles
Mid Slots
Large Micro Jump Drive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II with Navy 800's
Low Slots
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II or Large Ancillary Armor Repairer with Nano Paste
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Rig Slot
Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Anti Kinetic Pump I
Drones to taste
5x Wasps II
If you can't fit for T2, then don't you dare try to fly a Phoon. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 02:15:37 -
[253] - Quote
Was proud of a newer player as we discussed this thread, and he could see the wisdom in it. He is now headed for T2/T3 cruisers. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:11:15 -
[254] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
Ofc its not what your looking for, it dont fit your theory...
Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. I've heard that Gallente Battleships have advantages.
Gallente Battleships being good is not the same as no other battleship being good, Gallente also have the best HAC and some realy good cruisers. Im not sure overlooking Gallente would hurt the overall Battleship:cruiser ratio |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:14:59 -
[255] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
Ifc its not what your looking for, it dont fit your theory... Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. I've heard that Gallente Battleships have advantages.
Gallente Battleships being good is not the same as no other battleship being good, Gallente also have the best HAC and some realy good cruisers. Im not sure overlooking Gallente would hurt the overall Battleship:cruiser ratio
You're not sure? Why don't you try?
Take Gallente battleships from the game and tell me which T1 battleships are best(better than a T2/T3 cruiser/BC) in non PVE activity. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:24:56 -
[256] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Matari have a ship that gets 11,300 alpha. Name a cruiser that can match that.
Name a cruiser that needs that. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:25:48 -
[257] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
1. Videos = not what I'm asking for
Ifc its not what your looking for, it dont fit your theory... Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. I've heard that Gallente Battleships have advantages.
Gallente Battleships being good is not the same as no other battleship being good, Gallente also have the best HAC and some realy good cruisers. Im not sure overlooking Gallente would hurt the overall Battleship:cruiser ratio You're not sure? Why don't you try? Take Gallente battleships from the game and tell me which T1 battleships are best(better than a T2/T3 cruiser/BC) in non PVE activity.
You have been shown video evidence of diffrent (not gallente) Battleship killing gangs of frig-BC (cant remember if there were any T3 in those vids)
Removing just Gallente BS from the game would seriously screw the battleship:cruiser ratio, but removing Gallente cruisers would likely screw the ratio about as much the other way.
I will again ask you to show an example of where cruiser (t2/t3) is more cost and SP effective than battleships, you keep forgetting to answer any direct question and just reset to your "BS are bad" default line. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:31:48 -
[258] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
You have been shown video evidence of diffrent (not gallente) Battleship killing gangs of frig-BC (cant remember if there were any T3 in those vids)
Removing just Gallente BS from the game would seriously screw the battleship:cruiser ratio, but removing Gallente cruisers would likely screw the ratio about as much the other way.
I will again ask you to show an example of where cruiser (t2/t3) is more cost and SP effective than battleships, you keep forgetting to answer any direct question and just reset to your "BS are bad" default line.
Your question is answered in the OP.
1. Just click on the "1"
2. Read
3. Be enlightened
I have never said battleships are so bad. As I read the OP, it reads more like they are unnecessary rather than bad. Tell me what you absolutely need a battleship for? |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 03:45:33 -
[259] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Tell me what you absolutely need a battleship for?
What do yo you need Cruisers for, what do you need frigates for, what do you need destroyers for, what do you need battlecruisers for and what do you need dreadnought/carriers for?
Any single class of ships can be removed and some other ship would take its role (other than a few T2 ships) |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 04:11:03 -
[260] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Tell me what you absolutely need a battleship for? What do yo you need Cruisers for, what do you need frigates for, what do you need destroyers for, what do you need battlecruisers for and what do you need dreadnought/carriers for? Any single class of ships can be removed and some other ship would take its role (other than a few T2 ships)
Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles
Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates
Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles
Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets
Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals
Dread: Siege
These seem like what CCP intended. |
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 04:33:53 -
[261] - Quote
Frigates: Ill give you that frigs are cheap and its hard to replace them when the only real reason to use one is their cost :P
Destroyers: As shown in the videos linked in this thread, Battleship will and do kill frigates/drones so im sure we dont "absolutely need" Destroyers for this.
Cruisers: They can fulfull a varity of roles as you say, but what roles can only a cruiser do, in order for someone to "absolutely need" Cruisers there would have to be something no other ships can do.
Battlecruisers: Battleships deal more damage with more hardiness to survive. Again Battleships can kill smaller targets with the help of web/tp and this have ben proven in videoes linked in this thread before.
Carriers: bridge some logisitcs cruisers and you have mobile repairs, so their role can be taken by other classes.
Dread: They deal alot of dps while sieged, SC match that dps tho so they can take over without needing to sit still for 5min. They have less tracking than the Battleships you say cant hit smaller ships, and structure bashing is something battleships also do very well (need larger numbers, but without numbers backing you its suicide to drop a dread anyway)
So there is no ship class that is "absolutely needed", why should Battleships have to be any diffrent?
Battleships can, as shown in videos you dismiss as "not what your looking for", kill frigates and they deal the most damage of any subcapital ship. They also have a longer range than smaller ships (not counting BC with large guns), together with more EHP than almost any subcapital (some t2t3 setups get more ehp, but with alot shorter range and less dps) |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 04:41:51 -
[262] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles
Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates
Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles
Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets
Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals
Dread: Siege
These seem like what CCP intended.
Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense.
Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement.
All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE.
If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one.
And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely.
If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 05:36:17 -
[263] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles
Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates
Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles
Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets
Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals
Dread: Siege
These seem like what CCP intended.
Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense. Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement. All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE. If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one. And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely. If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.
But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.
Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 05:58:09 -
[264] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles
Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates
Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles
Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets
Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals
Dread: Siege
These seem like what CCP intended.
Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense. Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement. All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE. If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one. And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely. If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise. But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet. Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.
First i have to ask, why do you need 20vs40 for your T3 cruiser gang to win, if battleships are so bad would you not make a better point by using equal numbers or more battleships (if you truly think BS are as crap as you say)
What other 20man gang would win against these 40 T3s? Do you think Cruiser/HAC/T3 would do better against 2x their numbers of T3? |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 06:12:14 -
[265] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
First i have to ask, why do you need 20vs40 for your T3 cruiser gang to win, if battleships are so bad would you not make a better point by using equal numbers or more battleships (if you truly think BS are as crap as you say)
What other 20man gang would win against these 40 T3s? Do you think Cruiser/HAC/T3 would do better against 2x their numbers of T3?
Are you doubting the battleship can take out two measly T3s before going pop? What if they were T2s instead, would the battleships stand a better chance then? T1s? |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9393
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 06:14:10 -
[266] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Frigates: Ill give you that frigs are cheap and its hard to replace them when the only real reason to use one is their cost :P But then the difference between a good T2 frig (and you know you want it  ) vs a T1 BS can be about the same price wise, especially as you add insurance coverage which the T2 is sort of pointless with. In fact, I rather view the typical T1 BS with T2 components (not counting rigs) as rather disposable.
For a newbie, sure it would be absolutely daunting to loose that barely fit raven, but for someone with enough skill and game exp, what an hour to replace? (with added insurance payout etc). imo it's all you really need for a T1 BS, but for the quick frig fights it's hard to skimp especially facing possibly many larger targets and needing to succeed (to break shields etc.). So his cost argument, doesn't really phase most players that know better. It seems more aimed at discouraging newbies, the thread.
Same applies to the SP cost. You are a vet, likely maxed your cruiser skills as I have. What am I going to do, OP, waste it all on PI? Leet mining skills? Hauling?? I'm a combat pilot/s, I know the worth of having all options at my disposal (apart from caps, no interest there). And quite frankly, I don't stick to the latest doctrine opinion, I've been here long enough to know that is always changing here, a need to adapt, and you are better off just flying what you find to be fun for you. I don't like themepark mentality, it's why the sandbox has been my fav for a couple decades, the options are there for you and all viable in some form.
The videos don't lie, they are just not expedient for scaring newbies as the OP would like. I recommend getting off the soapbox and having an actual discussion with the vets here, they may enlighten you on a thing or two. You might even find a fresh new way to play this... reality.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 06:56:21 -
[267] - Quote
Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 07:11:04 -
[268] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.
Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.
First off, the T3 is most likely triple the cost of the BS. But lets just say it's double the cost. 500 mill vs 250 mil.
40 vs 20 = quadruple the fleet cost. If I just killed 9 or 10 of them, the fight would be even, isk wise.
Can I get 20 BS to insta-pop T3's?
Well yes I can.
If they fly at close range I can tackle them, neut, web, whatever.
At close range...I might kill them faster than I could target them.
If they fly at long range, transversal is better for me, and they can't hard tackle my fleet.
My 20 man BS fleet can field 100 drones and has maybe 60 utility slots, for neuts, damps, TP, etc.
My large weapons can reach out further than their medium weapons. Their range may be my best asset.
Would I want to run into a 40 man T3 fleet? No, but I wouldn't run from it.
As a pilot, would I sacrifice my BS to get T3 kills? Every day, yep I would. Just 1 would be a great trade, but 2 to 10 would be epic fun. Either way, I'm only risking 1 BS for the opportunity.
Random numbers:
Focused fire from 40 T3:
500 DPS, ROF every 4 seconds = 2000 Alpha x 40 = 80,000 Alpha My BS could take 80,000 though with any average tank. Would need to be 2 shotted at minimum.
Focused fire from 20 BS:
1000 DPS. ROF every 6 seconds = 6000 Alpha, x 20 = 120,000 Alpha. T3's be exploding.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 07:30:28 -
[269] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:
Circumstantial
Random numbers:
Fiction
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1917
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 07:49:08 -
[270] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.
Weren't pretty much ALL of those videos showing solo battleships taking on larger numbers of ships?
I know the one with the Armageddon was all about it.
There were others as well.
I know you don't like the videos, but they are quite literally proof that counters many of the statements you made.
To say that they are not relevant to the discussion is simply false.
It's not unmanly to admit to having been in error.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 07:56:53 -
[271] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Circumstantial
Random numbers:
Fiction
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.
The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.
It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.
My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.
Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 07:59:28 -
[272] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable. Weren't pretty much ALL of those videos showing solo battleships taking on larger numbers of ships? I know the one with the Armageddon was all about it. There were others as well. I know you don't like the videos, but they are quite literally proof that counters many of the statements you made. To say that they are not relevant to the discussion is simply false. It's not unmanly to admit to having been in error.
I never said anything about the videos except they weren't relevant to the discussion. The only "statements" I've made are in the OP which I'm sure you haven't read yet.  |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
606
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:03:52 -
[273] - Quote
Videos are a very good evidence on how things works. The only reason you don't like to see the videos as evidences is because you know we can give tons after tons with video evidences that pretty much invalidates your arguments here.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:08:44 -
[274] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:[
We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.
The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.
It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 )
Unless you consider running away as a counter.
My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.
Define "win"
After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops.
Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?
You wouldn't have to be doing math if you would just read the OP. I am happy to read your musings on fleet doctrine, but they have nothing to do with the thread. And yes I have been in EVE long enough to know that you should pick your targets so warping away is indeed a tactic. Matter of fact, it is yet another advantage that smaller ships have over battleships. Unfortunately, it is usually more difficult for a battleship to get way. This mean it will have difficulty dictating the types of engagements they find themselves in. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:10:56 -
[275] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Videos are a very good evidence on how things works. The only reason you don't like to see the videos as evidences is because you know we can give tons after tons with video evidences that pretty much invalidates your arguments here.
Videos are good, but they don't have anything to do with the OP. Go ahead read it! |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
116
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:14:54 -
[276] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.
Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.
stupid comparison really, as many have pointed out already.
Just to make it furtherly useless, i'+¼ll add that 20 (and less are needed for the job) arty BS (let's say TFI) shooting into resist hole are gonna volley T3s out of the field. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
756
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:16:06 -
[277] - Quote
guess op didnt watch o7 show...
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1917
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:25:53 -
[278] - Quote
Did read OP.
Subsequently read 13 more pages of arguments and evidence to the contrary.
Watched goalposts shuffle around a bit.
As far as risk, as pointed out above a T3 is gonna run you a great deal more than a BS that's T2 fitted. Actually, a well fit HAC/HIC will too generally.
Hitting smaller ships... I routinely attempt to provoke BS pilots into aggressing my assault frigate. Sometimes they do. Someday I hope you also get to experience the joy of having precision cruise missiles that are backed with rigors and a target painter absolutely shred your speed/sig tanked AF. It was an eye opener for me, and I was rocking a full set of mid-grade halos at the time.
I have a strange feeling that the rapid heavy/target painter/rigor combo must feel somewhat similar to cruisers. Battlecruisers will likely have little time to savor the experience. And those are just the missile boats...
I wont go into the living nightmare that drone boats bring to the field.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:43:08 -
[279] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Circumstantial
Random numbers:
Fiction
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win? We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is. The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right. It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 ) Unless you consider running away as a counter. My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS. Define "win" After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops. Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?
That is all you'd lose from flying a terror like the Phoon?? or even the Hyperion? Hmm, I seeeeee so that's why low-sec incursion fleets mainly consist of T1 BSs.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
94
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:52:43 -
[280] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Did read OP.
Subsequently read 13 more pages of arguments and evidence to the contrary.
Watched goalposts shuffle around a bit.
As far as risk, as pointed out above a T3 is gonna run you a great deal more than a BS that's T2 fitted. Actually, a well fit HAC/HIC will too generally.
Hitting smaller ships... I routinely attempt to provoke BS pilots into aggressing my assault frigate. Sometimes they do. Someday I hope you also get to experience the joy of having precision cruise missiles that are backed with rigors and a target painter absolutely shred your speed/sig tanked AF. It was an eye opener for me, and I was rocking a full set of mid-grade halos at the time.
I have a strange feeling that the rapid heavy/target painter/rigor combo must feel somewhat similar to cruisers. Battlecruisers will likely have little time to savor the experience. And those are just the missile boats...
I wont go into the living nightmare that drone boats bring to the field.
What evidence? |
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 08:55:33 -
[281] - Quote
Contrary to the OP's intention, this thread has gotten me pretty interested in T1 BSs (especially that RHML Phoon) since up till now all I ever trained was T3 Cruisers and down. |
z'kroh
Caldari Fire Demons
The Southern Syndicate
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 10:06:21 -
[282] - Quote
I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1097
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 10:08:47 -
[283] - Quote
z'kroh wrote:And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal
CCP is working to get you into a rokh on grid right now, cross check the fleet warp changes ;) |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9417
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 10:21:41 -
[284] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships really shine in PVE. They can tank loads of damage, enough damage to break NPC tanks. PVE is nothing like PVP in EVE however. Battleships will not make taking on larger numbers of ships viable.
You should email that to CCP. Like: CCP L2P HTFU or GTFO for fitting PvP BS's on your lousy o7 show today. It was FAKE! The cake is a LIE! All those cruisers you decimated were just other CCP employees pretending to be random players. The LIES!
Oh wait, that's a video, doesn't count, riiight..
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16138
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 10:49:52 -
[285] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
By your own numbers the battleships lose because they fire slower. In addition, they have to target the T3 first. All of that would leave the battleships vulnerable. EVE battles are too complex for this kind of on paper play.
Alpha fleet: Removed t3 cruisers every volley, primary doctrine for several years, losses per fight were as low as zero while the enemy cruiser fleets suffered total losses.
Baltec Fleet: Also alpha'ed its way through everything not a battleship.
Domi Fleet: Currently the primary doctrine, rips its way through t3 fleets like a knife through butter.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:07:30 -
[286] - Quote
z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal
Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:59:21 -
[287] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank.
Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
95
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 17:59:05 -
[288] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
By your own numbers the battleships lose because they fire slower. In addition, they have to target the T3 first. All of that would leave the battleships vulnerable. EVE battles are too complex for this kind of on paper play.
Alpha fleet: Removed t3 cruisers every volley, primary doctrine for several years, losses per fight were as low as zero while the enemy cruiser fleets suffered total losses. Baltec Fleet: Also alpha'ed its way through everything not a battleship. Domi Fleet: Currently the primary doctrine, rips its way through t3 fleets like a knife through butter.
I can't argue on the behalf of pilots who can not fit for the engagement. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 00:22:56 -
[289] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank. Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy.
Is it best fitted with reps or plates? What can it be used for? Solo? Bait? WHs? Ratting?
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 01:56:01 -
[290] - Quote
More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships. |
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1197
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 03:42:05 -
[291] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships.
thank you for sharing that deep and significant observation! I never would have guessed that there would be trade offs between different ship classes. I don't even know how I will use this profound new idea. My whole vision of eve has been flipped upside down. A rifter has a sig radius of 35m, where a raven has a sig of 410m. Not to mention the rifter is much faster! those are some pretty interesting advantages!
I will take these new ideas and think of new roles that smaller ships are better at than larger ships, and at the same time larger ships will be better at some things than smaller ships! Its almost as if it was by design
@ChainsawPlankto
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 03:45:46 -
[292] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships. thank you for sharing that deep and significant observation! I never would have guessed that there would be trade offs between different ship classes. I don't even know how I will use this profound new idea. My whole vision of eve has been flipped upside down. A rifter has a sig radius of 35m, where a raven has a sig of 410m. Not to mention the rifter is much faster! those are some pretty interesting advantages! I will take these new ideas and think of new roles that smaller ships are better at than larger ships, and at the same time larger ships will be better at some things than smaller ships! Its almost as if it was by design
A lot of players don't know half of that. You should consider yourself fortunate. |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
607
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 03:59:38 -
[293] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships.
Ehm ok. Did you know that Dreads have 'significant advantages' over Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Battleships when it comes to shooting POS'es and stations?
The simple fact is that you can't say that smaller ships have advantages over biggers ships and then makes us believe that Battleships are worser than smaller ships at everything as there are 1 million ways you can use a Battleship that have way more advantages over smaller ships.
Facts 101.
Yes, i have something i can say about this as i have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i have experience in flying all types of ships up to Marauders / Battleships.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16167
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 04:11:16 -
[294] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank. Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy. Is it best fitted with reps or plates? What can it be used for? Solo? Bait? WHs? Ratting?
Plates. Babbons have a long history as being a heavy and hard to remove fleet often fitted with projectile weapons.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 04:43:49 -
[295] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:More new players and even some older ones have accepted the fact that smaller ships have significant advantages over battleships. Ehm ok. Did you know that Dreads have 'significant advantages' over Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Battleships when it comes to shooting POS'es and stations? The simple fact is that you can't say that smaller ships have advantages over biggers ships and then makes us believe that Battleships are worser than smaller ships at everything as there are 1 million ways you can use a Battleship that have way more advantages over smaller ships. Facts 101. Yes, i have something i can say about this as i have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i have experience in flying all types of ships up to Marauders / Battleships.
Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship. |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
607
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 04:54:01 -
[296] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship.
We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things.
Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 05:06:53 -
[297] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship. We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things. Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned.
Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships.
Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong?
A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers.
Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship? |
Valkin Mordirc
1107
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 05:18:36 -
[298] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships. Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong? A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers. Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?
:Tinfoil:
#DeleteTheWeak
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
608
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 05:21:22 -
[299] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I understand EVE Online very well.
Well, i hardly believes that as you are a 2015 character while i'm a 2004 character. I do understand how the ships works in every possible scenarios while you barely knows anything about that.
Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships.
What about the 2x Vagabonds and 1x Hurricane that attacked me in my Vindicator in Perimeter where all died in 1 minute to me?
Wasn't i supposed to die here as Cruisers are so much better than Battleships?
I had 80% armor left when they all was dead.
Battleships are fine if you have brain to use them correctly.
And this is not about what dies to what. It's all about what is the best ship for the job you are going to do. I can take my Vargur (that i currently have) and put it up against a 20 man Cruiser fleet. Who do you think will win here if they are just a normal t1 cruiser fleet roaming around that want to kill stuffs?
Aza Ebanu wrote:Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?
I fly Battleships 95% of the times i use a ships. I'm heavily specialized in using Battleships. And i have been that since 2008.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 05:58:39 -
[300] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I understand EVE Online very well. Well, i hardly believes that as you are a 2011 character while i'm a 2004 character. I do understand how the ships works in every possible scenarios while you still have a loooooong long way left to get up to the experience level as i have about flying Battleships. I have Been flying Battleships since the middle of 2005. Heck, even all of my PVP videos where i fly my own ships from EVE is Battleships only to. Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships. What about the 2x Vagabonds and 1x Hurricane that attacked me in my Vindicator in Perimeter where all died in 1 minute to me (yeah, you find those kills on my killboard aswell)? Wasn't i supposed to die here as Cruisers and Battlecruisers are so much better than Battleships? I had 80% armor left when they all was dead. The bottom line is, Battleships are totally fine if you have brain to use them correctly. And this is not about what dies to what. It's all about what is the best ship for the job you are going to do. I can take my Vargur (that i currently have) and put it up against a 15 man Cruiser fleet. Who do you think will win here if they are just a normal t1 cruiser fleet roaming around that want to kill stuffs? Aza Ebanu wrote:Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship? I fly Battleships 95% of the times i use a ship. I'm heavily specialized in using Battleships. And i have been highly specialized in Battleships since 2008, but have been using Battleships since middle of 2005.
That was then. This is now. And as I said, I am not counting faction battleships in the argument. Everyone goes to faction battleship, or droneboat/Gallente. Bottom line is: there are more practical ships than battleships.
UPON FURTHER REVIEW: Looks like you are a blob legend. No wonder you don't believe there are any under powered ships. All you do is blob everything to death. My goodness! |
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 06:01:00 -
[301] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship. We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things. Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned. Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships. Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong? A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers. Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?
Ehh...
Chainsaw has only 27 losses his whole career, 16 of them are BS hulls.
He has 400 kills sitting in Amarr BS and another 50 or so in other race BS.
450/16 makes him very qualified to state the facts of his experience.
NightmareX I have known of and seen since my start in EVE.
He plays for PvP and has probably tried flying every ship in the game that he thought was viable.
Nearly a thousand kills, with 600 of them from BS hulls.
Less than 40 losses.
He is also very qualified to state facts from his experience in EVE.
You have 21 fights total, and 2 confirmed kills.
2/21 says to me that you aren't qualified to make ANY PvP assumptions, or give any advice on any ship class.
For you to ignore or dismiss comments that guys like this give is either severe learning issues or trolling.
I feel like this is a 15 page troll, and has no relevant information to add to the forums.
A lock seems to be the best option at this point.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
98
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 06:15:05 -
[302] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship. We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things. Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned. Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships. Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong? A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers. Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship? Ehh... Chainsaw has only 27 losses his whole career, 16 of them are BS hulls. He has 400 kills sitting in Amarr BS and another 50 or so in other race BS. 450/16 makes him very qualified to state the facts of his experience. NightmareX I have known of and seen since my start in EVE. He plays for PvP and has probably tried flying every ship in the game that he thought was viable. Nearly a thousand kills, with 600 of them from BS hulls. Less than 40 losses. He is also very qualified to state facts from his experience in EVE. You have 21 fights total, and 2 confirmed kills. 2/21 says to me that you aren't qualified to make ANY PvP assumptions, or give any advice on any ship class. For you to ignore or dismiss comments that guys like this give is either severe learning issues or trolling. I feel like this is a 15 page troll, and has no relevant information to add to the forums. A lock seems to be the best option at this point.
I appreciate your opinion and I appreciate your affinity for mathematics. I don't count blobs as successful PVP especially when you are in a battleeship. It is the easiest/safest form of EVE gameplay there is, and is worse than one of those no risk MMOs. Wasn't it you who said something about a "kitchen sink" fleet? No wonder, you support blob gameplay as well. Its probably why you got miffed when the battleships were outnumbered by T3s.
Battleships have some flaws when they must be flown in blobs. |
Valkin Mordirc
1107
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 06:43:15 -
[303] - Quote
The more you run your mouth Aza, the more people are going to see your lack of understanding.
So keep arguing your idiotic point. Everytime you post. The more people will see that you have no idea what you are talking about, the more you post, the more people will see that you don't understand a damned thing about how the mechanics work and all you are is a small whining **** beating his hands on the floor in a fit not because you CAN'T understand, because I fully believe you have the capability of being a decent player in EVE. It's because you REFUSE to listen to logic, from people who are actively telling you that your idea is wrong, by actively doing what you say is impossible day by day.
Basically your an idiot. And you are the only one to blame for being an idiot. Congratz lol.
#DeleteTheWeak
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 06:47:20 -
[304] - Quote
'MMO' is the key label here.
EVE's major concept revolves around corporation structures that join alliance structures.
Fleets are the direct, and intended result from that. Well organized fleets with a bunch of good pilots is some of the best fun in all of eve.
A solo battleship has just as much chance of survival as a solo Tengu or a solo Merlin or a solo *anything else*.
If a solo pilots starts jumping gates in lowsec or null, he could have any number of possible engagements.
He could get blobbed though , and it wouldn't matter what ship he was in.
But he could run into 3 bc pilots and kill them all. A battleship would give him the best chance to do that.
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
99
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:12:19 -
[305] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:'MMO' is the key label here.
EVE's major concept revolves around corporation structures that join alliance structures.
Fleets are the direct, and intended result from that. Well organized fleets with a bunch of good pilots is some of the best fun in all of eve.
A solo battleship has just as much chance of survival as a solo Tengu or a solo Merlin or a solo *anything else*.
If a solo pilots starts jumping gates in lowsec or null, he could have any number of possible engagements.
He could get blobbed though , and it wouldn't matter what ship he was in.
But he could run into 3 bc pilots and kill them all. A battleship would give him the best chance to do that.
So... you are confessing that to win EVE, it is about having the bigger blob? If so, you are validating my point that players should find something else to train for. If it doesn't matter too much what you bring to the blob, why waste the time and isk to field a battleship when a BC will do just as well?
Just trying to help people realize the content eventuality is blobs. Thank you for being sharp enough to bring these facts out |
Valkin Mordirc
1108
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:14:52 -
[306] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:'MMO' is the key label here.
EVE's major concept revolves around corporation structures that join alliance structures.
Fleets are the direct, and intended result from that. Well organized fleets with a bunch of good pilots is some of the best fun in all of eve.
A solo battleship has just as much chance of survival as a solo Tengu or a solo Merlin or a solo *anything else*.
If a solo pilots starts jumping gates in lowsec or null, he could have any number of possible engagements.
He could get blobbed though , and it wouldn't matter what ship he was in.
But he could run into 3 bc pilots and kill them all. A battleship would give him the best chance to do that.
So... you are confessing that to win EVE, it is about having the bigger blob? If so, you are validating my point that players should find something else to train for. If it doesn't matter too much what you bring to the blob, why waste the time and isk to field a battleship when a BC will do just as well? Just trying to help people realize the content eventuality is blobs. Thank you for being sharp enough to bring these facts out
lolwat?
The **** game have you been playing not to understand that Blobs are a thing?
Also.
I thought you said you didn't want Battleships to be ubersolo ships?
****. XD
#DeleteTheWeak
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
608
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:24:09 -
[307] - Quote
Not only did i use a Raven as my first real PVP Battleship in 2005, but i was actually part of the first Dreadnought kill in EVE's history aswell that was my first kill in a Battleship as you can see here: https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/-4640929/
Hell yeah, some advertisement of myself in a Battleship is needed sometimes .
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
100
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:35:23 -
[308] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Not only did i use a Raven as my first real PVP Battleship in 2005, but i was actually part of the first Dreadnought kill in EVE's history aswell that was my first kill in a Battleship as you can see here: https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/-4640929/Hell yeah, some advertisement of myself in a Battleship is needed sometimes .
All readers, take a really good look at the fit on that Moros. Then look at how many NightmareX was fleeted with.
Next read this fit: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Moros
You can make your on judgement of NightmareX's battleship skills. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1931
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:41:54 -
[309] - Quote
Mostly here for the popcorn and the slow roasting of the OP.
That and the kickass solo battleship pvp vids. Those things are gold.
I know it's unthinkable, but a simple 'okay, I was wrong' will likely stop the application of red hot pokers.
Have it your way.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Valkin Mordirc
1108
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:44:04 -
[310] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Mostly here for the popcorn and the slow roasting of the OP.
That and the kickass solo battleship pvp vids. Those things are gold.
I know it's unthinkable, but a simple 'okay, I was wrong' will likely stop the application of red hot pokers.
Have it your way.
He's resorted to ignoring me.
It's wonderful xD
#DeleteTheWeak
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1932
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 07:50:32 -
[311] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Mostly here for the popcorn and the slow roasting of the OP.
That and the kickass solo battleship pvp vids. Those things are gold.
I know it's unthinkable, but a simple 'okay, I was wrong' will likely stop the application of red hot pokers.
Have it your way. He's resorted to ignoring me. It's wonderful xD
Is okay. You're not all that he's ignoring.
Honestly, aside from CAM I didn't think that any Fox News correspondents played EVE.
Learn something new every day.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1198
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 08:04:26 -
[312] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank. Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy. Is it best fitted with reps or plates? What can it be used for? Solo? Bait? WHs? Ratting?
throw some plates up on that! decent damage and projection, and no one wants to primary it. I'd say it's more of a small/mid sized gang ship. I'd say people would expect it to be bait, so it doesn't work out well as bait. Cap can be an issue, helps to have some logi that can give you some, or bring cap boosters.
@ChainsawPlankto
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
608
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 08:27:48 -
[313] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Not only did i use a Raven as my first real PVP Battleship in 2005, but i was actually part of the first Dreadnought kill in EVE's history aswell that was my first kill in a Battleship as you can see here: https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/-4640929/Hell yeah, some advertisement of myself in a Battleship is needed sometimes . All readers, take a really good look at the fit on that Moros. Then look at how many NightmareX was fleeted with. Next read this fit: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Moros
You can make your on judgement of NightmareX's battleship skills.
You're not even old enough in EVE to realize that the fit you are seeing is not what the Moros had fitted. That killmail is so old that the killmail have been bugged on killboards through the years. It's missing 60% of the modules it had fitted on the Moros because of that.
Not only that, but did you see any less peoples on the first Titan killmail for example?
Nope, because there was a butt load of peoples on the first Titan kill.
We wasn't that many against that Moros (we was the whole 12 peoples where 9 out of that was Battleships) considering that we was fighting the biggest and most expensive ship at that time. So i think you need to wake up a little here.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1198
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 08:37:29 -
[314] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships have some flaws when they must be flown in blobs.
funny thing to say when the main killer of battleships, at least in my experience, is blobs of smaller ships. Vs a few smaller ships they are usually pretty easy to kill or fend off. Heavy neuts do bad things to most small ships.
Aza Ebanu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Not only did i use a Raven as my first real PVP Battleship in 2005, but i was actually part of the first Dreadnought kill in EVE's history aswell that was my first kill in a Battleship as you can see here: https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/-4640929/Hell yeah, some advertisement of myself in a Battleship is needed sometimes . All readers, take a really good look at the fit on that Moros. Then look at how many NightmareX was fleeted with. Next read this fit: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Moros
You can make your on judgement of NightmareX's battleship skills.
do note that prior to late 2007 killmails only displayed the destroyed fittings, and from the items that do show up the fitting doesn't look to be out of the ordinary. And I'm not sure if rigs were in game in 2005. That and an out of siege moros used to do BS level damage with just its drones.
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Mostly here for the popcorn and the slow roasting of the OP.
That and the kickass solo battleship pvp vids. Those things are gold.
I know it's unthinkable, but a simple 'okay, I was wrong' will likely stop the application of red hot pokers.
Have it your way. He's resorted to ignoring me. It's wonderful xD
make a few good points and these people tend to do that.
And yea I do own 3 BS BPOs. but I did mention that I have pretty much never used them. and IMO the biggest value I have in them is that CCP changed their prices
my PVP is a bit dated. But it is almost all small gang or solo. battleships have always been strong. imo the biggest weakness is getting shut down by ewar and chewed up by a gang of smaller ships. one of the t3s biggest strength is the large buffer and high resists, that on there own don't really mean a lot, but in a blob where you are likely to have logi, become very strong.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 09:28:34 -
[315] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:z'kroh wrote:I want to fly Abaddon. And Sniper-Rokh. 253 km optimal Doesn't the Abaddon have serious cap issues? You're better off with the Hyperion with that massive tank. Baddon is one of the best bricks money can buy. Is it best fitted with reps or plates? What can it be used for? Solo? Bait? WHs? Ratting? throw some plates up on that! decent damage and projection, and no one wants to primary it. I'd say it's more of a small/mid sized gang ship. I'd say people would expect it to be bait, so it doesn't work out well as bait. Cap can be an issue, helps to have some logi that can give you some, or bring cap boosters.
I have a alt that can fly the Baddon (training for the Paladin) so I was wondering if this ship had any use besides bait with that huge 192 ehp with dual 1600 steel plates + links.
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
608
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 09:40:21 -
[316] - Quote
And to make it even more funnier. I even was a part of the fight where we killed the most Motherships (yes they was called it that way back then) at the same time back in 2009 aswell. We killed 5 Motherships at the same time that time.
And the good thing here is that i even made a video from it .
Here is the video: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/NightmareX/EQI2-2MSKILLS.wmv
And here is the actual killmails: https://beta.eve-kill.net/character/1896934808/groupID/659/
Now, i didn't use a Battleship there, but a Vagabond. But the point here is that i actually have achieved quite alot through the years i have been doing PVP long time before you OP even started to play EVE. So i can back up myself with evidences on what i have been doing.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 10:14:31 -
[317] - Quote
At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
Show me a single ship that will reliably alpha enemy logistics off the field. (One shot - not 2 or 3 - if there's one logi, there will be more - so multiple shots can be repped through.)
Need a Maelstrom or Tempest for this. Mega? I dunno - I haven't done much with those.
Show me a ship that can neut out an enemy triage carrier while being focused by an enemy fleet? Need a Geddon for this, and it contributes dps or ewar drones to the fight as well.
Then there are spider tank domis... find me three ships that will tank and dps as well as those for equitable cost and skillpoint investment.
You need a T1 Battleship to AoE jam a fleet and survive. Scorpion. The alternative is many cruisers or frigs.
You need Battleships to pipe-bomb a fleet. (Unless you are going to dump caps/supers to pipe-bomb - which is far more skill / cost intensive)
You need a battleship to hit at extreme (200-250km - Entosis sov, this may become a thing) range. Rokh etc.
Then, training Battleships gets you Pirate battleships, Marauders, Blops, Faction Battleships, and leads nicely into dreads. Training cruisers won't get you those - so you need to train BS.
Battleships wouldn't be the first thing I advise a newbro to train for - they are better off training for closer goals, and work their way towards the bigger things. I would definitely have battleships on the list of things to work to - ESPECIALLY if you are planning on Null / Wormhole life.
If you are in a position where moving isn't a big option (Entosis sov? No remote reps, so that buffer is gonna be important) Battleships will hold a field far easier than frigs, cruisers, dessies or BCs. And they'll do it cheaper.
If you have the guys - anything will work. If you have a limit on the number of guys you can bring, but need to fill many roles on the fly - Battleships have the utility to do this.
I'm not terribly experienced in pvp - but these are the things I would say Battleships are needed for.
Having said that, I would like to see Battleships warp a little faster - but rigs / macharial / lowslots / implants can fix this.
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1098
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 11:10:52 -
[318] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
Ashimmu and 1-2 Svipuls. You're welcome. Also works against marauders solo farming c4s. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16172
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 12:02:07 -
[319] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
That was then. This is now. And as I said, I am not counting faction battleships in the argument. Everyone goes to faction battleship, or droneboat/Gallente. Bottom line is: there are more practical ships than battleships.
UPON FURTHER REVIEW: Looks like you are a blob legend. No wonder you don't believe there are any under powered ships. All you do is blob everything to death. My goodness!
This is now.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1935
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 12:32:26 -
[320] - Quote
And as usual, baltec1 delivers the proof via video... which is apparently absolutely not admissible due to being, well... proof.
Also these vids made me want to pew with my ravens. Sadly, my alliance is all about the armor... so I'll just fit up a geddon instead.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16175
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 12:34:32 -
[321] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: I don't count blobs as successful PVP especially when you are in a battleeship It is the easiest/safest form of EVE gameplay there is
Take a battleship on an assault frigate fleet vs tengus and live. I look forwards to seeing you try.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16175
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 12:35:32 -
[322] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:And as usual, baltec1 delivers the proof via video... which is apparently absolutely not admissible due to being, well... proof.
Also these vids made me want to pew with my ravens. Sadly, my alliance is all about the armor... so I'll just fit up a geddon instead.
I tried an armour raven before, very funny anti-frig ship.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1936
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 12:49:43 -
[323] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:And as usual, baltec1 delivers the proof via video... which is apparently absolutely not admissible due to being, well... proof.
Also these vids made me want to pew with my ravens. Sadly, my alliance is all about the armor... so I'll just fit up a geddon instead. I tried an armour raven before, very funny anti-frig ship.
That's just trollish.
'Shields are down! We got this! ....dafuq?!?'
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
313
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 14:32:56 -
[324] - Quote
Fairly certain this has become a troll. Pretty sure he knows he's wrong probably past page 2, but keeps moving the goal posts of his arguement to keep the conversation going.
Ive provided plenty of proof as well as others that ive killed everything smaller than a BS with my BS. This includes AF, 10mn T3d, cruisers, and BC. If i had a fight with a CS, im fairly sure i could win as well, except maybe against a sleip/claymore as those are extremely powerful ships when equipped with links/implants (most are).
I am a solo BS/BC pilot that flies in LS looking for fights, fighting blobs and generally being a pain in the ass to my targets. They cannot longpoint me to hold me. With current fit, i qm extremely hard to jam and probe down. They have to dedicate scram fit ships which i will quite literally vaporize in a few shots. Right now im on a 18 person kill streak and am 5th on top character on the KB for typhoon FI (was 3rd but week changed).
So the whole arguement about BS dying to smaller things everytime is wrong. When you fly your BS with t1 fittings, no skill, and even poorer understanding of game mechanics, you die. As OP has experienced.
Note: When i say solo, i mean full on solo. No scouts, no links, no blob hiding 1j out.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp.
Mordus Angels
77
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 14:38:33 -
[325] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados? |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 18:40:19 -
[326] - Quote
Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around. The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16185
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 18:52:51 -
[327] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around. The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this.
Yet we see videos of battleships crushing said smaller ships.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
101
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 18:53:54 -
[328] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around. The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this. Yet we see videos of battleships crushing said smaller ships.
Yet we see killboards of cruiser sized hulls all over the place. |
Valkin Mordirc
1110
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 19:17:40 -
[329] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around. The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this. Yet we see videos of battleships crushing said smaller ships. Yet we see killboards of cruiser sized hulls all over the place.
HEY. CRUISERS ARE POPULAR! WTF I DIDN'T KNOW THIS. IT'S LIKE MY LIFE IS A LIE!
And for some reason I'm specced into Cruisers...Waaiiit.
Regardless 'snark' aside.
https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/47211135/
https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/47217304/
https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/47160968/
Literally the first page for Solo kills with Ravens shows kills on Cruiser,
And the only solo losses are PVE fitted Ravens.
Also! https://zkillboard.com/kill/47235026/
Sig tanking sure did save this dude. Died in two volleys.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
104
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:18:54 -
[330] - Quote
Flying in a battleship means wasted ISK and time. Cruiser blobs are where the action is. Most battleships do not/ can not survive them. Almost all null sec fleets use T2/T3 crusier doctrines. Just look at the killboards. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16191
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 20:59:57 -
[331] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Flying in a battleship means wasted ISK and time. Cruiser blobs are where the action is. Most battleships do not/ can not survive them. Almost all null sec fleets use T2/T3 crusier doctrines. Just look at the killboards.
Im looking at the Imperium doctrines. Our main doctrine is currently Dominix fleet.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10059
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:21:42 -
[332] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados?
Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut.
I would not be quick but it would work.
=]|[=
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
105
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 21:27:34 -
[333] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Flying in a battleship means wasted ISK and time. Cruiser blobs are where the action is. Most battleships do not/ can not survive them. Almost all null sec fleets use T2/T3 crusier doctrines. Just look at the killboards. Im looking at the Imperium doctrines. Our main doctrine is currently Dominix fleet.
I'm sure it is. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 23:47:42 -
[334] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
Ashimmu and 1-2 Svipuls. You're welcome. Also works against marauders solo farming c4s.
Is that really all it takes to down a Paladin? If so then the passive Rattlers are far and away the best ships for soloing C4's. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
113
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 23:50:17 -
[335] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
Ashimmu and 1-2 Svipuls. You're welcome. Also works against marauders solo farming c4s. Is that really all it takes to down a Paladin? If so then the passive Rattlers are far and away the best ships for soloing C4's.
But we aren't talking about t2 battleships are we? |
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 23:56:30 -
[336] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados? Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut. I would not be quick but it would work.
I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever.
Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.
Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess?
In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
115
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 23:59:19 -
[337] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados? Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut. I would not be quick but it would work. I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever. Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them. Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess? In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them, like.....
Come on. I know you can complete that statement. |
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:09:35 -
[338] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:
Show me a single ship that will reliably alpha enemy logistics off the field. (One shot - not 2 or 3 - if there's one logi, there will be more - so multiple shots can be repped through.)
Need a Maelstrom or Tempest for this. Mega? I dunno - I haven't done much with those.
Show me a ship that can neut out an enemy triage carrier while being focused by an enemy fleet? Need a Geddon for this, and it contributes dps or ewar drones to the fight as well.
Then there are spider tank domis... find me three ships that will tank and dps as well as those for equitable cost and skillpoint investment.
You need a T1 Battleship to AoE jam a fleet and survive. Scorpion. The alternative is many cruisers or frigs.
You need Battleships to pipe-bomb a fleet. (Unless you are going to dump caps/supers to pipe-bomb - which is far more skill / cost intensive)
You need a battleship to hit at extreme (200-250km - Entosis sov, this may become a thing) range. Rokh etc.
Then, training Battleships gets you Pirate battleships, Marauders, Blops, Faction Battleships, and leads nicely into dreads. Training cruisers won't get you those - so you need to train BS.
Battleships wouldn't be the first thing I advise a newbro to train for - they are better off training for closer goals, and work their way towards the bigger things. I would definitely have battleships on the list of things to work to - ESPECIALLY if you are planning on Null / Wormhole life.
If you are in a position where moving isn't a big option (Entosis sov? No remote reps, so that buffer is gonna be important) Battleships will hold a field far easier than frigs, cruisers, dessies or BCs. And they'll do it cheaper.
If you have the guys - anything will work. If you have a limit on the number of guys you can bring, but need to fill many roles on the fly - Battleships have the utility to do this.
I'm not terribly experienced in pvp - but these are the things I would say Battleships are needed for.
Having said that, I would like to see Battleships warp a little faster - but rigs / macharial / lowslots / implants can fix this.
These?
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:10:24 -
[339] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Fairly certain this has become a troll. Pretty sure he knows he's wrong probably past page 2, but keeps moving the goal posts of his arguement to keep the conversation going.
Ive provided plenty of proof as well as others that ive killed everything smaller than a BS with my BS. This includes AF, 10mn T3d, cruisers, and BC. If i had a fight with a CS, im fairly sure i could win as well, except maybe against a sleip/claymore as those are extremely powerful ships when equipped with links/implants (most are).
I am a solo BS/BC pilot that flies in LS looking for fights, fighting blobs and generally being a pain in the ass to my targets. They cannot longpoint me to hold me. With current fit, i am extremely hard to jam and probe down. They have to dedicate scram fit ships which i will quite literally vaporize in a few shots. Right now im on a 18 person kill streak and am 5th on top character on the KB for typhoon FI (was 3rd but week changed).
So the whole arguement about BS dying to smaller things everytime is wrong. When you fly your BS with t1 fittings, no skill, and even poorer understanding of game mechanics, you die. As OP has experienced.
Note: When i say solo, i mean full on solo. No scouts, no links, no blob hiding 1j out.
A rare samurai eh, there are only a few people like you left in eve. Having a falcon, or logi in waiting when soloing is one thing, but a link booster is still a valid option for a true soloist, so nothing at all wrong with a link booster Stitch. My old 2012 toon died countlessly due to not having links, so today I don't go anywhere without them. Also could you send me a message in game about this statement you made "With current fit, i am extremely hard to jam and probe down". Almost everyone uses an ecm and logi ship in small gangs, please tell me how you overcome these cheap tactics when soloing in your BS/BC? |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
115
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:13:41 -
[340] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:
Show me a single ship that will reliably alpha enemy logistics off the field. (One shot - not 2 or 3 - if there's one logi, there will be more - so multiple shots can be repped through.)
Need a Maelstrom or Tempest for this. Mega? I dunno - I haven't done much with those.
Show me a ship that can neut out an enemy triage carrier while being focused by an enemy fleet? Need a Geddon for this, and it contributes dps or ewar drones to the fight as well.
Then there are spider tank domis... find me three ships that will tank and dps as well as those for equitable cost and skillpoint investment.
You need a T1 Battleship to AoE jam a fleet and survive. Scorpion. The alternative is many cruisers or frigs.
You need Battleships to pipe-bomb a fleet. (Unless you are going to dump caps/supers to pipe-bomb - which is far more skill / cost intensive)
You need a battleship to hit at extreme (200-250km - Entosis sov, this may become a thing) range. Rokh etc.
Then, training Battleships gets you Pirate battleships, Marauders, Blops, Faction Battleships, and leads nicely into dreads. Training cruisers won't get you those - so you need to train BS.
Battleships wouldn't be the first thing I advise a newbro to train for - they are better off training for closer goals, and work their way towards the bigger things. I would definitely have battleships on the list of things to work to - ESPECIALLY if you are planning on Null / Wormhole life.
If you are in a position where moving isn't a big option (Entosis sov? No remote reps, so that buffer is gonna be important) Battleships will hold a field far easier than frigs, cruisers, dessies or BCs. And they'll do it cheaper.
If you have the guys - anything will work. If you have a limit on the number of guys you can bring, but need to fill many roles on the fly - Battleships have the utility to do this.
I'm not terribly experienced in pvp - but these are the things I would say Battleships are needed for.
Having said that, I would like to see Battleships warp a little faster - but rigs / macharial / lowslots / implants can fix this.
These?
All those thingscould be done by a T2/T3 cruiser/BC/. Besides, that requires a fleet for half of those things, and it doesn't matter what you bring to the blob. |
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Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:18:05 -
[341] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:
Show me a single ship that will reliably alpha enemy logistics off the field. (One shot - not 2 or 3 - if there's one logi, there will be more - so multiple shots can be repped through.)
Need a Maelstrom or Tempest for this. Mega? I dunno - I haven't done much with those.
Show me a ship that can neut out an enemy triage carrier while being focused by an enemy fleet? Need a Geddon for this, and it contributes dps or ewar drones to the fight as well.
Then there are spider tank domis... find me three ships that will tank and dps as well as those for equitable cost and skillpoint investment.
You need a T1 Battleship to AoE jam a fleet and survive. Scorpion. The alternative is many cruisers or frigs.
You need Battleships to pipe-bomb a fleet. (Unless you are going to dump caps/supers to pipe-bomb - which is far more skill / cost intensive)
You need a battleship to hit at extreme (200-250km - Entosis sov, this may become a thing) range. Rokh etc.
Then, training Battleships gets you Pirate battleships, Marauders, Blops, Faction Battleships, and leads nicely into dreads. Training cruisers won't get you those - so you need to train BS.
Battleships wouldn't be the first thing I advise a newbro to train for - they are better off training for closer goals, and work their way towards the bigger things. I would definitely have battleships on the list of things to work to - ESPECIALLY if you are planning on Null / Wormhole life.
If you are in a position where moving isn't a big option (Entosis sov? No remote reps, so that buffer is gonna be important) Battleships will hold a field far easier than frigs, cruisers, dessies or BCs. And they'll do it cheaper.
If you have the guys - anything will work. If you have a limit on the number of guys you can bring, but need to fill many roles on the fly - Battleships have the utility to do this.
I'm not terribly experienced in pvp - but these are the things I would say Battleships are needed for.
Having said that, I would like to see Battleships warp a little faster - but rigs / macharial / lowslots / implants can fix this.
These? All those thingscould be done by a T2/T3 cruiser/BC/. Besides, that requires a fleet for half of those things, and it doesn't matter what you bring to the blob.
lol - ok. I got baited - this thread is still cool though - learnt lots about Battleships' capabilities that I didn't know before - gonna try some out |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:28:30 -
[342] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
Ashimmu and 1-2 Svipuls. You're welcome. Also works against marauders solo farming c4s. Is that really all it takes to down a Paladin? If so then the passive Rattlers are far and away the best ships for soloing C4's. But we aren't talking about t2 battleships are we?
Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.
Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.
I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.
You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
115
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 00:33:45 -
[343] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:[
Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.
Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.
I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.
You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 01:22:31 -
[344] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:[
Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.
Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.
I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.
You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
Nor should never ending trolling should be tolerated. When a person trolls as long as you do, personal attacks will become UNAVOIDABLE.. And my statement wasn't a personal attack, it was my opinion on your constant whining and whimpering on not being able to fly a T2/T3C because you trained for the BS which you are agonizing over atm.
Whining in the threads isn't a wise way of relieving your pain of not being able to fly the T2/T3C's, the only way is for you to either start cross training into the T2/T3C class, start up another char that specializes in T2/T3C's, or go to eve bazaar and buy you a char that can fly them (assuming you got the iskies). |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
118
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 01:30:25 -
[345] - Quote
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
426
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 01:51:43 -
[346] - Quote
I suspect one of the main reasons battleships have seemed irrelevant of late is the multi-year reign of the Ishtar as the king of the battlefield, with its ability to project battleship DPS at battleship engagement range whilst being utterly concerned with such nonsense as transversal, thus employing a devastating speed tank on top of a still outsized buffer, and bringing to the table a mobility which rendered the battleship class unable to compete.
I think we'll see more BS slugging matches as the sentry Ishtar becomes less of a dominant force at 100k+ range. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16197
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 03:50:26 -
[347] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.
And we used video evidence that shows battleships ripping apart your t2/t3 cruisers with ease.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 05:44:38 -
[348] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.
If you are so knowledgeable about game mechanics, why on earth was your ship fit like this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=46920196
or this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851
And how could you lose a ship in .5 space fit like this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851
Because a pro mechanics guy like yourself would never undock with any of those.
Is it possible you made a mistake?
Is it possible you don't have a clue how to fit a battleship?
Is it possible that you aren't even skilled enough to properly fit a T1 battleship? |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
119
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 05:55:06 -
[349] - Quote
The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:03:48 -
[350] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice.
You are not qualified to give that advice.
It is bad advice. |
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1946
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:03:59 -
[351] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados? Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut. I would not be quick but it would work. I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever. Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them. Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess? In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them.
Not to be a turd about it, but having some experience doing horrid things to battleships with an ishkur... the Hype has no drones after about 2 minutes tops. You kill them first as a frigate... always. After that, unless the beastie is more than cap stable that small neut combined with liberal application of Void WILL crack that nut open. As Ralph stated though, it's not a fast process. It's quite literally a death of a thousand cuts. If the BS has any buddies within ten jumps they can usually rescue them from this however. The Domi is actually much scarier to a frigate as those things can be a literal hive of frig killing drones.
I'm not arguing the validity of battleships though. The evidence of their effectiveness and versatility that's been presented in this thread is overwhelming. Most of them are as cheap as a T2 cruiser, cheaper in some cases.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
609
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:12:11 -
[352] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around.
Again, that's just your own opinion after the few years you have been playing. You don't have the experience enough yet to say if the Battleships are any sub-par to T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates.
Battleships are superior in many ways over T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates. It just depends on what you are going to do.
Aza Ebanu wrote:The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this.
I can guarantee you that a fleet of 4 Megathrons is going to massacre a Cruiser fleet of 15 peoples if the Megathrons have fitted their ships for that type of fights.
Lets twist you argument a little. You say that a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms a battleship?
What if you try to bring a single cruiser to a single battleship to see how that goes instead?
I'm sure you you know that you comparsion doesn't work, because if i decide to bring a blob of 15 Battleships and 5 Logistics, you need at least 60 cruisers to pose any danger to us. So you need 60 peoples while we need 20.
Tru 20 Battleships vs 20 Cruisers without any logistics on both sides. Then lets see who will win here. Yes, the Battleship fleet will massacre the Cruiser fleet.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
119
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:13:30 -
[353] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice. You are not qualified to give that advice. It is bad advice.
How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character. Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships. |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp.
Mordus Angels
78
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:14:31 -
[354] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:
Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.
I killed a triple rep myrm on my own while solo roaming in a nado. Yes; I know that solo tornados are laughably dumb, I have about 20 tornado fail mails to prove it.
but if the stars and the moon align and you so happen to come across an active tanked anything while in a 1400 fit tornado, good time will ensue.
3 tornados will hit for max damage against anything with a BS sig, fired at once they could delete 36000 EHP, without buffer mods you're bleeding into the next layer every salvo and hype will never catch a nado. kill the drones obviously so all the hype has to fight back with in its blaster which can project well past heated long point range, but you could just juggle points and pull range.
also I've taken out a tripple reped hype with a gang of 4 players, 2 of which were wasted and sleep deprived. in caracals....... with venture tackle.
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
609
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:18:55 -
[355] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.
Your killboard says you have no experience in flying battleships while i do. So don't lie about that everyones killboard says it, because mine don't.
And with my experience in flying battleships all since 2005, i can pretty much say that you are wrong about battleships here.
You have got evidenced after evidences that we are right about Battleships. How many evidences do you need before you are happy?
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:43:10 -
[356] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice. You are not qualified to give that advice. It is bad advice. How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.
I know because of those fits. You could have 5 characters for all I know. You might be a great miner, or a great trader, or the best freighter pilot in all of EVE. But those fits show that you have zero knowledge of BS fitting and next to nothing of PvP experience.
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Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:53:52 -
[357] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.
hmm 3 tornados? Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut. I would not be quick but it would work. I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever. Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them. Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess? In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them. Not to be a turd about it, but having some experience doing horrid things to battleships with an ishkur... the Hype has no drones after about 2 minutes tops. You kill them first as a frigate... always. After that, unless the beastie is more than cap stable that small neut combined with liberal application of Void WILL crack that nut open. As Ralph stated though, it's not a fast process. It's quite literally a death of a thousand cuts. If the BS has any buddies within ten jumps they can usually rescue them from this however. The Domi is actually much scarier to a frigate as those things can be a literal hive of frig killing drones. I'm not arguing the validity of battleships though. The evidence of their effectiveness and versatility that's been presented in this thread is overwhelming. Most of them are as cheap as a T2 cruiser, cheaper in some cases. Edit: and MUCH cheaper than a well fit T3.
Well, Today I learned!
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 08:38:39 -
[358] - Quote
This thread deserves an oscar. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1199
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 08:52:43 -
[359] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:
Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.
I killed a triple rep myrm on my own while solo roaming in a nado. Yes; I know that solo tornados are laughably dumb, I have about 20 tornado fail mails to prove it. but if the stars and the moon align and you so happen to come across an active tanked anything while in a 1400 fit tornado, good time will ensue. 3 tornados will hit for max damage against anything with a BS sig, fired at once they could delete 36000 EHP, without buffer mods you're bleeding into the next layer every salvo and hype will never catch a nado. kill the drones obviously so all the hype has to fight back with in its blaster which can project well past heated long point range, but you could just juggle points and pull range. also I've taken out a tripple reped hype with a gang of 4 players, 2 of which were wasted and sleep deprived. in caracals....... with venture tackle.
at which point you just... warp off
or in point range a hype does damage with null to a tornado. then again the nados might win the damage race. then again arty doesn't have the best tracking. A MJD would also be a rather strong move.
hype has pretty bad cap regen so the ishkur will probably wear it down eventually. Those things are very resilient, plus their resists are pretty awesome. that said scale it up a bit, and well, I don't think it looks good for the ishkurs. eventually one or more of the hypes is going to get good transversial, and/or have neuts to shut down the ishkur.
whoever said ashimmu is probably right, but I would have said curse. don't know if I like being in unmodified medium neut range of a hype in a cruiser.
Not sure a hypothetical 1vN is even useful. Just look at burner missions, can come up with a gimicky setup that can beat just about anything. and then there is the does it scale test.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1199
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 08:55:22 -
[360] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly larger ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from the OP. I use killboard info to back up my point.
@ChainsawPlankto
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BeeHaw Bocadotsu
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 11:22:24 -
[361] - Quote
LOLOLOLOL
You can become a star comedian with dat killboard of yurs xD |
BeeHaw Bocadotsu
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 11:34:45 -
[362] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:This thread deserves an oscar.
Indeed, I always get a good chuckle when I come to this thread.......because of dat Killboard, lololololol.
Op, fear the power of my mighty Buzzard, lololol
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
315
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 13:01:44 -
[363] - Quote
Well he's obviously so knowledgable about game mechanics, he knows that rigs are for sucka's. Also situational awareness, whatsthat?
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
124
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 19:19:04 -
[364] - Quote
Battleships are designed to be lumbering targets, and can't tank all the damage they are susceptible to. |
NightmareX
Lakagigar
610
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 02:40:16 -
[365] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Battleships are designed to be lumbering targets, and can't tank all the damage they are susceptible to.
Battleships are still great and superior to smaller ships in alot of different things. Smaller ships are also great and are superior to Battleships in many ways to. The problem is that you are only looking at what the smaller ships are good at over the Battleships while ignoring what the Battleships are good at over the smaller ships. You can't just look at it that way and then say that the smaller ships are better than Battleships and that's it. Because that's wrong.
Do you have problems to understand that?
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1248
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 03:15:13 -
[366] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
N¦¦o¦¦t¦¦ ¦¦a¦¦b¦¦o¦¦u¦¦t¦¦ ¦¦m¦¦y¦¦ ¦¦k¦¦i¦¦l¦¦l¦¦b¦¦o¦¦a¦¦r¦¦d¦¦.¦¦
Complete with evidence obtained from said killboard and otherwise that directly contradicts said thesis.
Fixed that for you.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Sespria Secantus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 03:53:17 -
[367] - Quote
Hmm, This is one of the weirdest thread I've ever read. Well I'm bored right now, so I'll enlighten you.
BS in their current Meta are mostly used for isk making, not PVP for nooblets like yourself deary. Only experience veterans who specialize in using them for pvp mayhem are really good at using them for such. But in the right hands with experience they are absolutely devastating that can wreck havoc to the unprepared small/mid size gang. And most of these pilots started pvping in frigates and cruisers before elevating their pvp into BSs.
For their LONG training investment there is no reason for nooblets to train for a BS if they're looking to pvp. Frigates and cruisers are very good right now for pvp, have a much shorter train time and are more enjoyable to fly then BSs as there are many tactics and skills that you have to learn & master to be successful with them.
So if you're posting this thread to warn newer players not to train for BS if you want to pvp, then I agree with you, they shouldn't. Especially not when all the Faction Frigates, AF's, T3Ds, T1C-T3Cs running rampant all over the places. Why? Because they're the most fun to fly and relatively easy to get into, not because they're more powerful than BSs. If a T2 cruiser pilot would to engage a T1 BS pilot with equal pvp skills, the T1 BS pilot would completely destroy the T2C pilot due to the power of heavy neuts if in short range and unmatched range projection if at long range.
So to summarize, if intending to pvp, newer pilots should train for frigates/destroyers and cruisers and leave the BSs to the veteran warmongers. If they want to make some isk and to be able to plex after 8 months into the game, then they better train for BSs. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9621
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 04:44:34 -
[368] - Quote
About the whole killboard thing, I don't understand how the op can say BS is good or bad when I don't even see any pvp BS fits there. Did I miss something? I see mission runner type fits. I see miner fits. Some "wtf you undock for?!?" fits. But I don't seem to see any actual BS pvp fits....
Then he cherry picks certain data and ignores everything and everybody else, while having 0 personal-experience with it even though he could... even if not here at least on sisi. It would seem the only real exp with a BS is getting his mission ship ganked again and again by cruisers. That experience doesn't necessarily make BS better or worse, it just reflects on the poor situational awareness of the pilot it would seem, much reflected in this thread in some ways.
Well... I hope somehow things can get better for you OP, sincerely. If anything, I think your whole situation shown under the surface would seem to not keep newbies from training BS, but more so to entirely keep them from ever stepping foot out of highsec if you are the shining example of a success story |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
152
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 07:46:28 -
[369] - Quote
Pay attention readers to the folks who say battleships have their use and never mention it. When they do, a whole host of other ships can fulfill that role as well. I especially like the tanking excuses. Why? because a smaller ship doesn't need that much tank to survive it can just sig/speed tank and the damage goes away. Look at their killboards. do they fly battleships often? You must admit they are successful at EVE Online.
The proof is in the pudding so to speak.Pretty as they are, battleships are not worth the SP investment. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
769
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 08:49:00 -
[370] - Quote
yes they are, if you dont train battleships then your merely a 1 ship tackle pilot, be as well just being an alt to a more skilled char.
battleships are great now stop giving out bad information to noobs who might be reading this.
good luck doing lvl 4's, lvl 5's, wh escalations, ded sites etc efficiently with a t3.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 09:35:37 -
[371] - Quote
Speaking of BS kills, you need to check this one out: https://zkillboard.com/kill/38164081/
The problem I have with Battleships is that new players rush to get into them without having skills to fly them well and loose. They always rush into bigger ships because they get more DPS when the smaller ships but what they don't think about is that they would get more DPS if they trained to fly small ships well.
Battleships have a place when flown well and you have the skills to fly them. Granted they do about the same DPS as a cruiser but they can apply their DPS from further away and they can take more from their enemies.
If you don't want to fly them, no one is forcing you to but they do have a purpose. The warp speed does suck though. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
769
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 10:08:07 -
[372] - Quote
a cruiser does not do the same dps as a battleship!
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Portiko
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 10:20:40 -
[373] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:a cruiser does not do the same dps as a battleship!
They do the same dps as frigs, cruisers and bses with selectable damage for both short and long range weapons on the fly and his name was einst... ishtar.
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Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 15:04:53 -
[374] - Quote
Wow, The OP of this thread must be an Arch Troll with complete immunity to all forms of logic and reasoning. I bet even the Devs are amazed at how formidable the OP's trolling prowess is.
OP you should go play WoW, you'd be unstoppable. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11403
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 16:00:52 -
[375] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:Wow, The OP of this thread must be an Arch Troll with complete immunity to all forms of logic and reasoning. I bet even the Devs are amazed at how formidable the OP's trolling prowess is.
OP you should go play WoW, you'd be unstoppable.
Probably not an intentional troll (you can tell those), but someone with a not so great reasoning process.
This thread and the OPs resistance to the info given actually reminds me of how I was 15 years ago *insert wavy lflashback lines here*
I've been a long time Battletech fan (going on 29 years now), so back in 2000 I was super amped to start playing Mechwarrior 4 (MW3 had long since gotten stale, it's peer-to-peer multiplayer was a lag fest). It was great at 1st, but people being people, the Min/maxxing commenced and so created a not so great situation: Most weapons were useless, 1 weapon (Extended Range Large lasers) were kings and every other weapon except a few like Gauss Rifles stayed on the shelf (thus my personal term for them, "shelf weapons").
We talked about the situation on forums. Part of that discussion was that while stark imbalances did exist, some of the weapons weren't "bad", they just required actual skill to use. Back then I was all like "no, those weapons are bad and they need to be buffed!".
One day, a fellow forum goer challenged me and others to a demonstration on the MW4 server he hosted. He took underused mechs with underused weapons like Autocannon/5s and Short Ranged Missiles (SRMs) and with a smaller team (his 4 mechs against our 12) proceeded to hand us our asses, one bloodied cheek at a time. He proved his point. I still wasn't convinced. I said "it tells you something that you need an elite player to make those weapons and mechs work". He said to me over comms and what he said altered my world view.
He said "think about this. You see that these mechs and weapons can work in the right hands. If you buff them to the point that anyone can use them , what do you think I and people like me would be able to do with them".
My mind was blown. I had now way of knowing this then, but I had come up against a version of Malcanis' Law even before there was an EVE Online to apply it too lol. If the developers of MW4 had followed my 'advice' and buffed those little used weapons, the end result would have been more massive imbalances as the really good players just used them to lord over everyone , it would have just shifted the problem.
If CCP ever made battleships "useful" to averaged skilled players ie most of us, What would the Big Mikers of the EVE universe be able to do with those things. They can already slaughter 10 man fleets of smaller ships, what , would they be able to take on 50 man fleets of small ships? The end result would just be what I just described plus people not flying other ships because BSs are the 'go to fotm thing'.
That's all to say that battleships are probably best left alone, because trying to 'fix' them could backfire and make for an even worse situation than what we have now.
|
Freya Sertan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 16:18:58 -
[376] - Quote
Well, I'll give the OP credit for at least trying PVE. PVE in nullsec, no less.
I will not give the OP credit for trying nullsec PVE in a T1, PVE fit battleship. Yes, you are going to fail with that constantly. The problem is you, not battleships. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2310
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 18:04:46 -
[377] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Probably not an intentional troll (you can tell those), but someone with a not so great reasoning process. This thread and the OPs resistance to the info given actually reminds me of how I was 15 years ago *insert wavy lflashback lines here* I've been a long time Battletech fan (going on 29 years now), so back in 2000 I was super amped to start playing Mechwarrior 4 (MW3 had long since gotten stale, it's peer-to-peer multiplayer was a lag fest). It was great at 1st, but people being people, the Min/maxxing commenced and so created a not so great situation: Most weapons were useless, 1 weapon (Extended Range Large lasers) were kings and every other weapon except a few like Gauss Rifles stayed on the shelf (thus my personal term for them, "shelf weapons"). We talked about the situation on forums. Part of that discussion was that while stark imbalances did exist, some of the weapons weren't "bad", they just required actual skill to use. Back then I was all like " no, those weapons are bad and they need to be buffed!". One day, a fellow forum goer challenged me and others to a demonstration on the MW4 server he hosted. He took underused mechs with underused weapons like Autocannon/5s and Short Ranged Missiles (SRMs) and with a smaller team (his 4 mechs against our 12) proceeded to hand us our asses, one bloodied cheek at a time. He proved his point. I still wasn't convinced. I said "it tells you something that you need an elite player to make those weapons and mechs work". He said to me over comms and what he said altered my world view. He said "think about this. You see that these mechs and weapons can work in the right hands. If you buff them to the point that anyone can use them , what do you think I and people like me would be able to do with them". My mind was blown. I had no way of knowing this then, but I had come up against a version of Malcanis' Law even before there was an EVE Online to apply it too lol. If the developers of MW4 had followed my 'advice' and buffed those little used weapons, the end result would have been more massive imbalances as the really good players just used them to lord over everyone , it would have just shifted the problem. If CCP ever made battleships "useful" to averaged skilled players ie most of us, What would the Big Mikers of the EVE universe be able to do with those things. They can already slaughter 10 man fleets of smaller ships, what , would they be able to take on 50 man fleets of small ships? The end result would just be what I just described plus people not flying other ships because BSs are the 'go to fotm thing'. That's all to say that battleships are probably best left alone, because trying to 'fix' them could backfire and make for an even worse situation than what we have now.
It took 19 pages, but someone finally won this interminable thread. Congratulations. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
165
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 18:28:04 -
[378] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:Wow, The OP of this thread must be an Arch Troll with complete immunity to all forms of logic and reasoning. I bet even the Devs are amazed at how formidable the OP's trolling prowess is.
OP you should go play WoW, you'd be unstoppable. Probably not an intentional troll (you can tell those), but someone with a not so great reasoning process. This thread and the OPs resistance to the info given actually reminds me of how I was 15 years ago *insert wavy lflashback lines here* I've been a long time Battletech fan (going on 29 years now), so back in 2000 I was super amped to start playing Mechwarrior 4 (MW3 had long since gotten stale, it's peer-to-peer multiplayer was a lag fest). It was great at 1st, but people being people, the Min/maxxing commenced and so created a not so great situation: Most weapons were useless, 1 weapon (Extended Range Large lasers) were kings and every other weapon except a few like Gauss Rifles stayed on the shelf (thus my personal term for them, "shelf weapons"). We talked about the situation on forums. Part of that discussion was that while stark imbalances did exist, some of the weapons weren't "bad", they just required actual skill to use. Back then I was all like " no, those weapons are bad and they need to be buffed!". One day, a fellow forum goer challenged me and others to a demonstration on the MW4 server he hosted. He took underused mechs with underused weapons like Autocannon/5s and Short Ranged Missiles (SRMs) and with a smaller team (his 4 mechs against our 12) proceeded to hand us our asses, one bloodied cheek at a time. He proved his point. I still wasn't convinced. I said "it tells you something that you need an elite player to make those weapons and mechs work". He said to me over comms and what he said altered my world view. He said "think about this. You see that these mechs and weapons can work in the right hands. If you buff them to the point that anyone can use them , what do you think I and people like me would be able to do with them". My mind was blown. I had no way of knowing this then, but I had come up against a version of Malcanis' Law even before there was an EVE Online to apply it too lol. If the developers of MW4 had followed my 'advice' and buffed those little used weapons, the end result would have been more massive imbalances as the really good players just used them to lord over everyone , it would have just shifted the problem. If CCP ever made battleships "useful" to averaged skilled players ie most of us, What would the Big Mikers of the EVE universe be able to do with those things. They can already slaughter 10 man fleets of smaller ships, what , would they be able to take on 50 man fleets of small ships? The end result would just be what I just described plus people not flying other ships because BSs are the 'go to fotm thing'. That's all to say that battleships are probably best left alone, because trying to 'fix' them could backfire and make for an even worse situation than what we have now.
Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail. |
Freya Sertan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 18:49:03 -
[379] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:Wow, The OP of this thread must be an Arch Troll with complete immunity to all forms of logic and reasoning. I bet even the Devs are amazed at how formidable the OP's trolling prowess is.
OP you should go play WoW, you'd be unstoppable. Probably not an intentional troll (you can tell those), but someone with a not so great reasoning process. This thread and the OPs resistance to the info given actually reminds me of how I was 15 years ago *insert wavy lflashback lines here* I've been a long time Battletech fan (going on 29 years now), so back in 2000 I was super amped to start playing Mechwarrior 4 (MW3 had long since gotten stale, it's peer-to-peer multiplayer was a lag fest). It was great at 1st, but people being people, the Min/maxxing commenced and so created a not so great situation: Most weapons were useless, 1 weapon (Extended Range Large lasers) were kings and every other weapon except a few like Gauss Rifles stayed on the shelf (thus my personal term for them, "shelf weapons"). We talked about the situation on forums. Part of that discussion was that while stark imbalances did exist, some of the weapons weren't "bad", they just required actual skill to use. Back then I was all like " no, those weapons are bad and they need to be buffed!". One day, a fellow forum goer challenged me and others to a demonstration on the MW4 server he hosted. He took underused mechs with underused weapons like Autocannon/5s and Short Ranged Missiles (SRMs) and with a smaller team (his 4 mechs against our 12) proceeded to hand us our asses, one bloodied cheek at a time. He proved his point. I still wasn't convinced. I said "it tells you something that you need an elite player to make those weapons and mechs work". He said to me over comms and what he said altered my world view. He said "think about this. You see that these mechs and weapons can work in the right hands. If you buff them to the point that anyone can use them , what do you think I and people like me would be able to do with them". My mind was blown. I had no way of knowing this then, but I had come up against a version of Malcanis' Law even before there was an EVE Online to apply it too lol. If the developers of MW4 had followed my 'advice' and buffed those little used weapons, the end result would have been more massive imbalances as the really good players just used them to lord over everyone , it would have just shifted the problem. If CCP ever made battleships "useful" to averaged skilled players ie most of us, What would the Big Mikers of the EVE universe be able to do with those things. They can already slaughter 10 man fleets of smaller ships, what , would they be able to take on 50 man fleets of small ships? The end result would just be what I just described plus people not flying other ships because BSs are the 'go to fotm thing'. That's all to say that battleships are probably best left alone, because trying to 'fix' them could backfire and make for an even worse situation than what we have now. Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail.
No. YOUR battleships are designed to fail because you have no idea how to use one.
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1067
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 18:53:04 -
[380] - Quote
I've decided to flip my point of view. I am convinced and I now see the truth.
I'd like to have my battleships get a serious buff.
Warp speed-200% increase
Base speed- 300% increase
Weapons tracking- 300% increase
More slots
More HP
More drones
More range for every module mounted
I can't believe I didn't get on board sooner... |
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11410
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 18:55:31 -
[381] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail.
The difference here is that I had the openness and ability to understand why I was wrong back then. That you don't demonstrates some of the things a few dozen people have said about you in this thread you made. You can get mad at me for saying that, and if that makes you feel better good, but you are deluding yourself.
Battleships are not solopwnmobiles for a reason. You can solo with them, but only if you are actually good at the game There are very good reasons why different ship classes are good for different things cruisers are useful, but so at Battleships in the right circumstances... You seem to want some kind of "I Win" button and that's wrong.
A question that I have that you haven't mentioned yet is why you worry about what other people are doing? If everyone thought like you, those people in those videos many of us have linked (that you dismissed) wouldn't be doing incredible things in battleships. Hell, if Baltec though like you there'd have been no "Baltec Fleet" which was a thing of beauty to behold.
I think you just trying to compensate for you personal inability here.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
165
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 19:51:09 -
[382] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail.
The difference here is that I had the openness and ability to understand why I was wrong back then. That you don't demonstrates some of the things a few dozen people have said about you in this thread you made. You can get mad at me for saying that, and if that makes you feel better good, but you are deluding yourself. Battleships are not solopwnmobiles for a reason. You can solo with them, but only if you are actually good at the game There are very good reasons why different ship classes are good for different things cruisers are useful, but so at Battleships in the right circumstances... You seem to want some kind of "I Win" button and that's wrong. A question that I have that you haven't mentioned yet is why you worry about what other people are doing? If everyone thought like you, those people in those videos many of us have linked (that you dismissed) wouldn't be doing incredible things in battleships. Hell, if Baltec though like you there'd have been no "Baltec Fleet" which was a thing of beauty to behold. I think you just trying to compensate for you personal inability here.
As usual, not a single objective point in you entire post. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11412
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 22:21:01 -
[383] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail.
The difference here is that I had the openness and ability to understand why I was wrong back then. That you don't demonstrates some of the things a few dozen people have said about you in this thread you made. You can get mad at me for saying that, and if that makes you feel better good, but you are deluding yourself. Battleships are not solopwnmobiles for a reason. You can solo with them, but only if you are actually good at the game There are very good reasons why different ship classes are good for different things cruisers are useful, but so at Battleships in the right circumstances... You seem to want some kind of "I Win" button and that's wrong. A question that I have that you haven't mentioned yet is why you worry about what other people are doing? If everyone thought like you, those people in those videos many of us have linked (that you dismissed) wouldn't be doing incredible things in battleships. Hell, if Baltec though like you there'd have been no "Baltec Fleet" which was a thing of beauty to behold. I think you just trying to compensate for you personal inability here. As usual, not a single objective point in you entire post.
Those are some mighty powerful ego defense mechanisms you have there, but the problem with that is they don't serve you in the long run. Learning the flaws in your thinking (like I did then, and as I continue to do) stings at 1st but it makes you stronger, but doing what you are doing hurts down the road.
Either way, it's your life, but damn man. Just damn.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 00:09:41 -
[384] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:I've decided to flip my point of view. I am convinced and I now see the truth.
I'd like to have my battleships get a serious buff.
Warp speed-200% increase
Base speed- 300% increase
Weapons tracking- 300% increase
More slots
More HP
More drones
More range for every module mounted
I can't believe I didn't get on board sooner...
Yep lol, also give them a Doomsday Device in the high slot which is needed to help SOME pilots get rid of that pesky Atron that's eaten it's way into a certain BS pilot's hull.
|
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
165
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 00:20:43 -
[385] - Quote
Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 01:33:01 -
[386] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand.
Their are tons of reasons in this thread that fully explains the reason to train for BSs and how to FIT & fly them, assuming the person reading them doesn't have a comprehension deficiency.
|
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2311
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 01:39:22 -
[387] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand.
No offense, but the reasons to fly them have come up many, many times in this thread. Primarily it comes down to two things.
First, a highly capable solo battleship can take on swarms of smaller ships. It isn't easy and it isn't for everyone. But it has been done, can be done, and is a direct result of game design.
Second, battleships in groups are more effective with smaller numbers than cruisers in groups. That was the point of the discussion circa page 8. Battleships simply scale more effectively because they can push out more damage per ship and can catch reps more effectively than cruisers.
It's actually not that hard to apply damage from a battleship, but you have to do it deliberately. It's easier to fly cruisers as a general rule, but that doesn't mean battleships don't have a unique role to play. |
Aza Ebanu
HC - Serenity
166
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 01:51:37 -
[388] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. No offense, but the reasons to fly them have come up many, many times in this thread. Primarily it comes down to two things. First, a highly capable solo battleship can take on swarms of smaller ships. It isn't easy and it isn't for everyone. But it has been done, can be done, and is a direct result of game design. Second, battleships in groups are more effective with smaller numbers than cruisers in groups. That was the point of the discussion circa page 8. Battleships simply scale more effectively because they can push out more damage per ship and can catch reps more effectively than cruisers. It's actually not that hard to apply damage from a battleship, but you have to do it deliberately. It's easier to fly cruisers as a general rule, but that doesn't mean battleships don't have a unique role to play.
1. Swarms of what kind of smaller ships?
2. Effective for what?
3. I said the same thing. They have to fit completely to fight smaller ships.
No offense but, read the OP. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1069
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 02:18:02 -
[389] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand.
It's already been established that your original points are lies, ignorance, and hogwash.
You are not qualified to give advice on ships and fittings.
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
166
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 02:20:00 -
[390] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. It's already been established that your original points are lies, ignorance, and hogwash. You are not qualified to give advice on ships and fittings.
Yeah what part?
Who established it?
Are you the grand EVE Online "qualifier" now?
Get over yourself. Learn to be more objective and stay on topic. |
|
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1069
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 02:35:21 -
[391] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. It's already been established that your original points are lies, ignorance, and hogwash. You are not qualified to give advice on ships and fittings. Yeah what part? Who established it? Are you the grand EVE Online "qualifier" now? Get over yourself. Learn to be more objective and stay on topic.
Your very first sentence states that battleships are the most risk to fly. That is a lie. (Just 1 of many)
Every poster who has posted battleship experience has established that you are ignorant to the qualities of battleships.
Your killboard confirms it.
I'm not the grand EVE qualifier. But I can certainly say that YOU are NOT qualified.
I'm not really all about myself. I am 100% objective on all ships in EVE.
The fact that you are not qualified IS on topic.
|
Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 03:35:11 -
[392] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Is a constant excuse for poor game design. the inverse works in this case too. What if the players in cruisers aren't that good? What if the players in cruisers are elite and they still kill battleships? The problem with this thinking is that it makes assumptions. It is clear for players who understand EVE game mechanics that battleships are liabilities, that's why most players fly some sort of medium hull. Battleships are not the kings of tanking , and they are not the best damage dealers in the game. In order to deal full damage, they have to have support, or be going up against a pilot who is careless. Battleships are designed to fail.
The difference here is that I had the openness and ability to understand why I was wrong back then. That you don't demonstrates some of the things a few dozen people have said about you in this thread you made. You can get mad at me for saying that, and if that makes you feel better good, but you are deluding yourself. Battleships are not solopwnmobiles for a reason. You can solo with them, but only if you are actually good at the game There are very good reasons why different ship classes are good for different things cruisers are useful, but so at Battleships in the right circumstances... You seem to want some kind of "I Win" button and that's wrong. A question that I have that you haven't mentioned yet is why you worry about what other people are doing? If everyone thought like you, those people in those videos many of us have linked (that you dismissed) wouldn't be doing incredible things in battleships. Hell, if Baltec though like you there'd have been no "Baltec Fleet" which was a thing of beauty to behold. I think you just trying to compensate for you personal inability here. As usual, not a single objective point in you entire post. Those are some mighty powerful ego defense mechanisms you have there, but the problem with that is they don't serve you in the long run. Learning the flaws in your thinking (like I did then, and as I continue to do) stings at 1st but it makes you stronger, but doing what you are doing hurts down the road. Either way, it's your life, but damn man. Just damn.
I told ya.... Behold the power of the Arch Troll. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1248
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 03:37:23 -
[393] - Quote
Good Reasons to fly BS given:
Wormhole PvE and PvP. Low Sec Pve and PvP. Nullsec PvE and PvP. Missions and wars in hisec. Incursions. Killboards will verify that the BS is good for the PvP end. Wallets will verify that they take care of business in PvE. Lots of ships have lots of roles. Fly intelligently.
@ Jenn, I had this...
https://www.c64-wiki.de/index.php/BattleTech_%E2%80%93_The_Crescent_Hawk%27s_Inception
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1965
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 04:10:10 -
[394] - Quote
Sooo much time spent on Crescent Hawk Inception.
I could swear I have a DOSbox version of it somewhere.
Mech Commander Gold was another fun one.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 04:29:34 -
[395] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:
Your very first sentence states that battleships are the most risk to fly. That is a lie. (Just 1 of many)
Some objective gameplay reasons:
1. least likely to survive a gatecamp
2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank
RavenPaine wrote:
Every poster who has posted battleship experience has established that you are ignorant to the qualities of battleships.
Your killboard confirms it.
this is not my only character and, I don't get my jollies by posting to some 3rd party site about my video game activities.
RavenPaine wrote:
I'm not the grand EVE qualifier. But I can certainly say that YOU are NOT qualified.
Please! You are worse off than everyone else because, you're too close minded to listen to truth.
RavenPaine wrote:
I'm not really all about myself. I am 100% objective on all ships in EVE.
The fact that you are not qualified IS on topic.
Just like I said before, you've got nothing to argue with. I fear you are getting too emotional to continue peacefully. So this is my last response to your comments. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9709
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 04:43:54 -
[396] - Quote
ftfy
|
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 05:17:43 -
[397] - Quote
i feel compelled to train into battleships!
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 06:13:54 -
[398] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:i feel compelled to train into battleships!
The Rattlesnake is king of T1 BSs. Can do it all, PVEing, PVPing, Baiting, Ratting, Anoms, and even DEDs.
|
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1071
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 07:02:14 -
[399] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Your very first sentence states that battleships are the most risk to fly. That is a lie. (Just 1 of many)
Some objective gameplay reasons: 1. least likely to survive a gatecamp 2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank RavenPaine wrote:
Every poster who has posted battleship experience has established that you are ignorant to the qualities of battleships.
Your killboard confirms it.
this is not my only character and, I don't get my jollies by posting to some 3rd party site about my video game activities. RavenPaine wrote:
I'm not the grand EVE qualifier. But I can certainly say that YOU are NOT qualified.
Please! You are worse off than everyone else because, you're too close minded to listen to truth. RavenPaine wrote:
I'm not really all about myself. I am 100% objective on all ships in EVE.
The fact that you are not qualified IS on topic.
Just like I said before, you've got nothing to argue with. I fear you are getting too emotional to continue peacefully. So this is my last response to your comments.
Most likely to survive a gate camp.... That's how bait works silly.
Taking full damage is the objective sometimes. It keeps the prey from jumping the gate.
Battleclinic gets your killmails auto-posted from eve. I know you have other characters.. every subscription gets 3 characters.
I'm worse than everyone else because I call your bullshit? Blunt, I admit, but not close minded.
You are the guy with the blinders on. You are the guy that ignores video proof of achievement. VIDEO. PROOF. A pretty powerful tool that you seem to dismiss at will. Organizations like the FBI and CIA generally take video proof very seriously.
I have another character too. Between the two of them I have about 600 BS kills. That is plenty to argue with.
And you misjudge my emotions. This stuff makes my day. It's fun to pick you apart. |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
120
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 07:31:55 -
[400] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank
.
cruisers vs cruisers, if your fleet isn't applying full damage on other cruisers you clearly brought the wrong tool or your FC ****** up |
|
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NightmareX
Lakagigar
611
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 10:47:58 -
[401] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:1. least likely to survive a gatecamp
2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank
So in other words, carriers, dreads, super carriers and titans are also useless over Battleships then since they also takes full damage in fleet from smaller ships?
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:
1: Asteroid Madness
2: Clash of the Empires
3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
|
Portiko
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 11:10:43 -
[402] - Quote
If I can give my take on BS balance, I feel the meta could be fleshed out a bit by buffing BSes a great deal. They should be given 2xEHP and 2-3xDPS. This will make them extremely OP and also greatly increase the EHP of the blob, however, the EHP of the blob is nerfed due to the huge DPS buffs BSes receive (i.e greater BS DPS = things die faster). BSes basically become mini-dreads and as such should be removed from highsec. BCs should be rebalanced to reflect something more similar to the current state of BSes, with the class fleshed out as a whole to include pirate BCs and a wider line-up of T2 options for BCs. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 11:16:30 -
[403] - Quote
Azu, you're a 2011 toon, 2 years older than myself so tell me, On your KB how come your ships aren't at least T2 fitted?
Why don't you fit a web and a heavy neut on your BSs you intend to pvp in?
How come you can't fly T2 ships?
Are BSs the only ships you trained for?
When you engage in PVP, How do you set up and pick your fights and where? |
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
22
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 11:18:29 -
[404] - Quote
It's ok. He knows what he's doing.
He's getting more and more overt.
Is it too early to cite Godwin's Law yet? Is that when this thread stops OP? |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 12:32:30 -
[405] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:It's ok. He knows what he's doing.
He's getting more and more overt.
Is it too early to cite Godwin's Law yet? Is that when this thread stops OP?
Well the ones he can't answer, he ignores.
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
776
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 12:40:10 -
[406] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Some objective gameplay reasons:
1. More likely to survive a gatecamp than a cruiser
fixed that for ya bud
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1106
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 12:44:12 -
[407] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Blackfeathers wrote:It's ok. He knows what he's doing.
He's getting more and more overt.
Is it too early to cite Godwin's Law yet? Is that when this thread stops OP? Well the ones he can't answer, he ignores.
But battleships have bigger engines, how come they cannot kite frigates. And they also on't rep as fast as frigates, frigate reps rep each 3seconds, BS reps take 10seconds. Battleships are completely useless. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1970
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 12:54:08 -
[408] - Quote
OP has a mad ego tank and will not waver, no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented to him.
No matter how many different sources it originates from.
No matter what.
This thread is now about MechWarrior and it's various subgames.
Discussion of the merits of bacon is also acceptable.
While somewhat off topic, further videos of battleships stomping fleets solo are also quite welcome.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Valkin Mordirc
1114
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 13:11:28 -
[409] - Quote
The last mech game I played was Front Mission 3 on the PS2. Such a great game.
Any suggest on current gen Mech games? Because I would mind trying one out.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
121
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 13:11:37 -
[410] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Azu, you're a 2011 toon, 2 years older than myself so tell me, On your KB how come your ships aren't at least T2 fitted?
well that doesnt' mean much really, my char is 2 years something old but i got barely more than a year of training, did a single month after free trial then had to quit and came back a lot of time later xD |
|
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1971
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 13:33:07 -
[411] - Quote
and that ricochets us back to player knows vs character sp, but that's whole different can of worms.
Valkin, I haven't kept up on the mech games lately so I don't have much good info in that dept. Last one I tried was 'mech assault' or some other idiocy like that for the xbox many years ago. It gave me the sads. I like explosions as much as anyone else, but I also like torso twists and the ability to move the targeting reticule from center screen, so MW3/4? I don't recall really was a turnoff for me.
Any really decent mech game requires mech customization though. Without that it's just a shooter with really big hardware.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11419
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 14:47:34 -
[412] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:OP has a mad ego tank and will not waver, no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented to him.
No matter how many different sources it originates from.
No matter what.
There is a name for that.
Quote:
This thread is now about MechWarrior and it's various subgames.
Discussion of the merits of bacon is also acceptable.
While somewhat off topic, further videos of battleships stomping fleets solo are also quite welcome.
EDIT: I've always been fond of the Jenner personally, as I started with the tabletop game playing with Solaris VII arena rules with a couple of nerds I worked with. Found that the all laser variant was great for harassing fire while moving, and could deliver a pretty punishing alpha strike. However, it courted shutdown when using it's alpha unless standing in water. Light mechs, while fragile, are a heck of a lot of fun to play.
I've always been a medium mech guy (though I also love heavies like the Crusader, Rifleman, Thunderbolt and Warhammer, 3025 ear battletech 4 LIFE lol). Players of Battletech tended to laugh at me, but my favorite was the Vanilla Wolverine. It just worked lol.
In MW4 i mostly pilots Buishwackers, Dragons and Lokis, with the odd Thanatos for craps and giggles lol. Maybe I've outgrown it, I can't really seem to get into MWO. |
Freya Sertan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
172
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 14:52:47 -
[413] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:The last mech game I played was Front Mission 3 on the PS2. Such a great game. Any suggest on current gen Mech games? Because I would mind trying one out.
FM3 was brilliant. Love love love that series. |
Miss Moist
I is a Ferret
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 17:20:22 -
[414] - Quote
Like Jenn aSide said, battleship balance isn't that bad, it just has a much higher skill requirement than most other ships which is quite a good thing really. Gives players something to aim for in the long term.
The pirate faction ships are all pretty good with much more tank and DPS than others plus a trait of some sort that helps overcome a BSs biggest disadvantages (mobility and damage application) like the Vindis webs or the Machs speed.
T1 BSs are not that bad either with the Typhoon, Dominix, Armageddon and Raven all seeing use along with anything else that can do drones, neutralizers and rapid heavies. Armor tanking and having mid slots for utility/prop/tackle helps allot for these ships as well. Navy faction variants are usually just beefed up versions of those.
It would be nice if some of the slower purely turret based ships like the Rokh, Abaddon, Maelstrom and the Apocalipse got a bit of a look at though. A few more utility mids/highs maybe. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
169
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 18:01:37 -
[415] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank
.
cruisers vs cruisers, if your fleet isn't applying full damage on other cruisers you clearly brought the wrong tool or your FC ****** up
True, but the point still stands that smaller ships have the ability to avoid damage better than battleships. In a fleet, it is significant because you can not HP tank tank much damage. It is the way the game is designed. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
69
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 01:05:33 -
[416] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:i feel compelled to train into battleships! The Rattlesnake is king of T1 BSs. Can do it all, PVEing, PVPing, Baiting, Ratting, Anoms, and even DEDs.
What if I told you......
I feel compelled to train into a Redeemer?
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 02:54:37 -
[417] - Quote
Miss Moist wrote:Like Jenn aSide said, battleship balance isn't that bad, it just has a much higher skill requirement than most other ships which is quite a good thing really. Gives players something to aim for in the long term.
The pirate faction ships are all pretty good with much more tank and DPS than others plus a trait of some sort that helps overcome a BSs biggest disadvantages (mobility and damage application) like the Vindis webs or the Machs speed.
T1 BSs are not that bad either with the Typhoon, Dominix, Armageddon and Raven all seeing use along with anything else that can do drones, neutralizers and rapid heavies. Armor tanking and having mid slots for utility/prop/tackle helps allot for these ships as well. Navy faction variants are usually just beefed up versions of those.
It would be nice if some of the slower purely turret based ships like the Rokh, Abaddon, Maelstrom and the Apocalipse got a bit of a look at though. A few more utility mids/highs maybe.
Or in case of the Baddon, lots more cap, I mean a lot more.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1209
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 04:58:13 -
[418] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Doctor Knuckles wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank
.
cruisers vs cruisers, if your fleet isn't applying full damage on other cruisers you clearly brought the wrong tool or your FC ****** up True, but the point still stands that smaller ships have the ability to avoid damage better than battleships. In a fleet, it is significant because you can not HP tank tank much damage. It is the way the game is designed.
Smaller ships do less damage, and get more avoidance, and in turn BS get more damage and more hp. Mind blowing I know
and with Front Mission I only played the SNES version on roms, and at one point I wiped out my friend's saved data and still feel like an ass about it 10+ years later. One friend got it for PS2 or something and said it just wasn't the same.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Icarius
The Wings of Maak
28
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Posted - 2015.06.17 14:21:57 -
[419] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand.
I am alone
I need a ship
I have to tank a full spawn of navy faction npcs while i am killng someone in ... whatever you want except capitals.
I have to tank 900dps from the navy faction, dual damp, dual web, dual heavy neutras + the dps of my victim. Average time on battlefield is 1 minute.
I want to survive too, it s not a suicide
Can you help me? (you are not allowed to check killboards)
thx |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1073
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 17:23:15 -
[420] - Quote
Icarius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. I am alone I need a ship I have to tank a full spawn of navy faction npcs while i am killng someone in ... whatever you want except capitals. I have to tank 900dps from the navy faction, dual damp, dual web, dual heavy neutras + the dps of my victim. Average time on battlefield is 1 minute. I want to survive too, it s not a suicide Can you help me? (you are not allowed to check killboards) thx
You may need time to de-agress so you can dock or jump a gate too.
I would recommend a.. (thinking for .5 seconds) Battleship!!
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
369
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 18:02:53 -
[421] - Quote
@OP: I would disagree. Battleships are as important a platform as any other. Their specific engagement window is just smaller. The ability to escalate to battleships and caps is often more important than doing so. That being said, the mentality behind bs, the 'NY battleship should wreck everything' idea, must be changed. But people need to fly them to learn this. We also need people to fly them so we can continue to push on their legitimate problems that do need fixed.
The Law is a point of View
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
170
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 06:47:16 -
[422] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:@OP: I would disagree. Battleships are as important a platform as any other. Their specific engagement window is just smaller. The ability to escalate to battleships and caps is often more important than doing so. That being said, the mentality behind bs, the 'NY battleship should wreck everything' idea, must be changed. But people need to fly them to learn this. We also need people to fly them so we can continue to push on their legitimate problems that do need fixed.
Please elaborate how battleships are preferred for these activities. |
Traejun DiSanctis
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
150
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 06:54:04 -
[423] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Kenrailae wrote:@OP: I would disagree. Battleships are as important a platform as any other. Their specific engagement window is just smaller. The ability to escalate to battleships and caps is often more important than doing so. That being said, the mentality behind bs, the 'NY battleship should wreck everything' idea, must be changed. But people need to fly them to learn this. We also need people to fly them so we can continue to push on their legitimate problems that do need fixed.
Please elaborate how battleships are preferred for these activities.
I don't think he was actually advocating battleships as preferred over other ships. They do, however, have their place. Structure bashing and Cap killing, to name only a couple. Certain battleships are also preferred for ratting over anything else. Sure, the Ishtar can rat well... but I'll do better in my Rattlesnake, Vindicator, Machariel and/or any Marauder.
That's not even mentioning certain Battleship fleet doctrines that absolutely annihilate opposing fleets. RHML Ravens and Arty Typhoons, just to name a couple. |
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
29
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 08:46:01 -
[424] - Quote
Aza Ebanu
I still waiting your answer |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
814
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 08:47:39 -
[425] - Quote
this thread became redundant a long time ago
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
370
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 10:05:44 -
[426] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:this thread became redundant a long time ago
Apparently it did not. It seems there is still a strong mentality that bs are useless. They are not, they are just more difficult to use effectively. They do need a more clearly defined role in the former of t3's not invading on their role as much as they do
The Law is a point of View
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Valkin Mordirc
1129
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 10:21:32 -
[427] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lan Wang wrote:this thread became redundant a long time ago Apparently it did not. It seems there is still a strong mentality that bs are useless. They are not, they are just more difficult to use effectively. They do need a more clearly defined role in the former of t3's not invading on their role as much as they do
That "Strong Mentality" is coming from the OP who is belligerently ignoring everyone else who is telling him is wrong.
IE: Redundant
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
370
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 12:42:50 -
[428] - Quote
Which is why I was just reading something over in F and I the other day about bs and them needing to be better, and see threads like that crop up fairly regularly.
The Law is a point of View
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
814
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 12:52:19 -
[429] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Which is why I was just reading something over in F and I the other day about bs and them needing to be better, and see threads like that crop up fairly regularly.
they can be better yes, but the op is specifically telling people to NOT train into battleships because they are useless which is bullsh!t, maybe they are for the OP who throws random mission loot on battleships then dies while solo.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16246
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 00:45:31 -
[430] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Which is why I was just reading something over in F and I the other day about bs and them needing to be better, and see threads like that crop up fairly regularly.
All started by people who don't fly them and think they are broken because they work differently to the cruisers and frigates they are used to.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
170
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Posted - 2015.06.20 02:34:50 -
[431] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Which is why I was just reading something over in F and I the other day about bs and them needing to be better, and see threads like that crop up fairly regularly. they can be better yes, but the op is specifically telling people to NOT train into battleships because they are useless which is bullsh!t, maybe they are for the OP who throws random mission loot on battleships then dies while solo.
Nope! I never said anything like that. See, you forgot to read the OP or you have no reading comprehension. I said for most thingsother ships can usually do it just as well or better. If a player uses the SP required to adequately fly battleships, too fly smaller hulls, they will find EVE more satisfying. No one has proved it false. I have seen a lot of snark though. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2035
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 04:04:14 -
[432] - Quote
Honestly I think the Warhammer is pretty much the iconic representation of the Inner Sphere's mechs, just as the MadCat pretty much is the poster child for the Clan.
I do favor the lighter, faster mechs personally. I don't mind sacrificing the durability and firepower for the extra speed and maneuverability. Especially if jump jets are involved. LOVE those things. So for me it's a Jenner for the inner sphere, but if I'm driving a clan mech I really REALLY like the Puma. If you go with the jump jet and ER Large laser variation of it you have a super fast lil bastich that can work the terrain really well while packing a pretty impressive punch for a light mech.
Despite the high heat output I do like the lasers, as they can strike targets that are underwater.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
9986
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Posted - 2015.06.20 04:54:03 -
[433] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:" The truth is that, any smaller combat ship can destroy a battleship, and they are designed to be destroyed by larger capital ships too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
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Perihelion Olenard
208
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 06:11:52 -
[434] - Quote
In spite of what has been said about battleships being bad, I think I'll use my Kronos in PvP one day after getting Marauders V. I may even consider buying the new Kronos police skin. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1249
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 18:58:03 -
[435] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lan Wang wrote:this thread became redundant a long time ago Apparently it did not. It seems there is still a strong mentality that bs are useless. They are not, they are just more difficult to use effectively. They do need a more clearly defined role in the former of t3's not invading on their role as much as they do
The only way its not redundant is if you consider it hyper-redundant, which IMHO is warranted. OP claims BS's arent the best for any role, people repeatedly post otherwise, OP denies it.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
170
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 19:54:14 -
[436] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Lan Wang wrote:this thread became redundant a long time ago Apparently it did not. It seems there is still a strong mentality that bs are useless. They are not, they are just more difficult to use effectively. They do need a more clearly defined role in the former of t3's not invading on their role as much as they do The only way its not redundant is if you consider it hyper-redundant, which IMHO is warranted. OP claims BS's arent the best for any role, people repeatedly post otherwise, OP denies it.
Truth should be redundant. I never said battleships aren't best at any role. You sir are full of malarkey. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 22:30:06 -
[437] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:If a player uses the SP required to adequately fly battleships, to fly smaller hulls, they will find EVE more satisfying. No one has proved it false. I have seen a lot of snark though.
With the SP needed to fly a HAC instead of a BS you have enough to get most of the core/fitting/tank/weapon skills to 4. Not to mention that most of the skills you need in order to fly a BS good are skill you also need to fly a T2 cruiser good (other than large weapon/t2 large weapon and MJD skill if you decide to go for it)
T1 Battleship vs T2 cruiser will give BS the win for least SP needed AND least isk lost on destruction |
Ahed Sten
31
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Posted - 2015.06.21 07:53:22 -
[438] - Quote
This thread was past it's expiration date two months ago when I first saw it, how the hell is it still on page 1 and why do people continue to waste their time? OP has obviously made some undeniable truths very clear for the rest of you naysayers.
You're right, OP. Battleships are terrible ships and you should never, ever fly one. They serve no purpose in this game whatsoever, they're outclassed by everything from Frigates to Supers and they're a total waste of skill points. You totally hit the nail on the head with your astute observations, and I support your decision to never train or fly any of them! Thumbs up!
*Sneaks off to do fun battleship stuff in a battleship with other battleships.*
...
You know that OP is bad.
Everyone that has read this knows that OP is bad.
OP probably even knows that OP is bad but can't admit it.
Now can we please stop publicizing the OP and his bad ideas? |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
189
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 09:56:47 -
[439] - Quote
I do surely plan to train them especially for PVP. I find most of the battle cruisers less worth to train that battleships. Probably this sort of threads are started by frigate pilots who can't imagine piloting a ship moving at speeds lower than 10000 m/s.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1249
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 17:38:09 -
[440] - Quote
Quote:
Truth should be redundant. I never said battleships aren't best at any role. You sir are full of malarkey.
Quote:battleships are worthless
Its OK, you don't have to read what you wrote; we did.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10155
|
Posted - 2015.06.21 21:46:59 -
[441] - Quote
Ahed Sten wrote:Now can we please stop publicizing the OP and his bad ideas?
One of the best threads on BS supremacy for some time. Thanks, OP!
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16256
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 11:58:07 -
[442] - Quote
Ahed Sten wrote:This thread was past it's expiration date two months ago when I first saw it, how the hell is it still on page 1 and why do people continue to waste their time? OP has obviously made some undeniable truths very clear for the rest of you naysayers.
You're right, OP. Battleships are terrible ships and you should never, ever fly one. They serve no purpose in this game whatsoever, they're outclassed by everything from Frigates to Supers and they're a total waste of skill points. You totally hit the nail on the head with your astute observations, and I support your decision to never train or fly any of them! Thumbs up!
*Sneaks off to do fun battleship stuff in a battleship with other battleships.*
...
You know that OP is bad.
Everyone that has read this knows that OP is bad.
OP probably even knows that OP is bad but can't admit it.
Now can we please stop publicizing the OP and his bad ideas?
Ironically this thread has seen new pilots take up flying battleships and provided a good many tips and fits for people to try out.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ahed Sten
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 15:32:34 -
[443] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ahed Sten wrote:This thread was past it's expiration date two months ago when I first saw it, how the hell is it still on page 1 and why do people continue to waste their time? OP has obviously made some undeniable truths very clear for the rest of you naysayers.
You're right, OP. Battleships are terrible ships and you should never, ever fly one. They serve no purpose in this game whatsoever, they're outclassed by everything from Frigates to Supers and they're a total waste of skill points. You totally hit the nail on the head with your astute observations, and I support your decision to never train or fly any of them! Thumbs up!
*Sneaks off to do fun battleship stuff in a battleship with other battleships.*
...
You know that OP is bad.
Everyone that has read this knows that OP is bad.
OP probably even knows that OP is bad but can't admit it.
Now can we please stop publicizing the OP and his bad ideas? Ironically this thread has seen new pilots take up flying battleships and provided a good many tips and fits for people to try out.
Hmm, good point. |
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 03:29:39 -
[444] - Quote
Ugh huh, I missed the part about that low risk with that high insurance payout. I have Amarr BS lev 5, so I'm thinking about ratting in a Baddon. Still trying to figure out what to use the Geddon for IMO. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16278
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 05:21:40 -
[445] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Still trying to figure out what to use the Geddon for IMO.
Curse on steroids.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Valkin Mordirc
1153
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Posted - 2015.06.24 18:06:31 -
[446] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Ugh huh, I missed the part about that low risk with that high insurance payout. I have Amarr BS lev 5, so I'm thinking about ratting in a Baddon. Still trying to figure out what to use the Geddon for IMO.
Marauder murderer.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1115
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 19:15:21 -
[447] - Quote
I've read the entire thread. I've done a lot of thinking on it. I have the solution to this problem. All ships should be auto ballanced to equalize pilot skills in all circumstances.
If pilot A has better guns and more skills than pilot B, then pilot A's damage output should be throttled down so the mathematical damage of each ships guns is equivalent. Ibis vs Mega.... the ibis civilian blasters get an appropriate damage and range boost to auto balance them against the megathron opponent. Shields, armor, cap..... all get auto balanced to the ship you are engaged with. For multiple ships the various stats will be equalized across fleets. If all else fails and Pilot A is just better at eve than Pilot B then A's damage will be reduced further on the fly and B's tanking ability will get a boost on the fly. All fights will end in ties. There will be no losers.
Benefits:
1 - no losers
2 - no ouchy feelings
3 - no need to buy insurance
4 - no losing ships
5 - risk aversion removed from the game
6 - everyone can fly the best ships and implants
7 - super pilots can stop whining about docking
8 - you don't have to bother fitting a tank
9 - you only need to fit 1 gun (and it doesn't even matter which)
10 - Pheonix will become relevant
Downsides:
1 - won't be able to complete missions
2 - only income will be PI, mining, moon goo and scamming
3 - no more faction or meta module drops
4 - there may be some lag as the servers continuously rescale everything on the fly |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1077
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 01:44:39 -
[448] - Quote
Sounds like a very well thought out plan. Total balance and fair play for all.
I would still fly a battle ship though.
With names like 'Typhoon', 'Armageddon', 'Megathron', etc, it would still feel like I won |
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.25 03:00:22 -
[449] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Ugh huh, I missed the part about that low risk with that high insurance payout. I have Amarr BS lev 5, so I'm thinking about ratting in a Baddon. Still trying to figure out what to use the Geddon for IMO. Marauder murderer.
Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10306
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Posted - 2015.06.25 04:50:40 -
[450] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
Don't fly alone and/or unskilled? If you backtrack through the thread, there are vid links of marauders (Paladin included) just decimating cruiser fleets. Even MJD escapes after annihilating a good many cruiser ganker attempts. Of course, if you fit like the OP, forget it
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Sespria Secantus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.25 07:02:35 -
[451] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
Don't fly alone and/or unskilled? If you backtrack through the thread, there are vid links of marauders (Paladin included) just decimating cruiser fleets. Even MJD escapes after annihilating a good many cruiser ganker attempts. Of course, if you fit like the OP, forget it
You got me, I didn't see all the videos. And hell no, I don't fit my BSs nowhere near as pitiful as the OP's T1 abandoned junkyard fits. All of my fits are solid T2/faction fitted with excellent cap stability but heavy neut pressure are always brought to take down a Marauder, why?. Sigh, I just wished that CCP would include some kind of neut resistance while in Bastion Mode.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1116
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Posted - 2015.06.25 11:56:20 -
[452] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Webvan wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
Don't fly alone and/or unskilled? If you backtrack through the thread, there are vid links of marauders (Paladin included) just decimating cruiser fleets. Even MJD escapes after annihilating a good many cruiser ganker attempts. Of course, if you fit like the OP, forget it You got me, I didn't see all the videos. And hell no, I don't fit my BSs nowhere near as pitiful as the OP's T1 abandoned junkyard fits. All of my fits are solid T2/faction fitted with excellent cap stability but heavy neut pressure are always brought to take down a Marauder, why?. Sigh, I just wished that CCP would include some kind of neut resistance while in Bastion Mode.
Bastion mode has 1 weakness I think - neut pressure. It's really not reasonable to want to remove it. There needs to be at least 1 way (other than overwhelming numbers) to beat a ship. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
338
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 15:08:40 -
[453] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Webvan wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
Don't fly alone and/or unskilled? If you backtrack through the thread, there are vid links of marauders (Paladin included) just decimating cruiser fleets. Even MJD escapes after annihilating a good many cruiser ganker attempts. Of course, if you fit like the OP, forget it You got me, I didn't see all the videos. And hell no, I don't fit my BSs nowhere near as pitiful as the OP's T1 abandoned junkyard fits. All of my fits are solid T2/faction fitted with excellent cap stability but heavy neut pressure are always brought to take down a Marauder, why?. Sigh, I just wished that CCP would include some kind of neut resistance while in Bastion Mode.
XLASBs work well against neut pressure. Course that only makes 2 marauders viable. Having an extra mid on the pal/kronos for dual cap boosters would help them not die to the first geddon that lands 20km away.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Perihelion Olenard
208
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 18:20:40 -
[454] - Quote
You can fit two heavy faction cap boosters on the Kronos if you forgo a propulsion module and settle with dual repairers. That's with neutron blasters. |
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 01:42:22 -
[455] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Webvan wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Thought so, I'm starting to get the feeling that training for this Paladin is a waste of SP. If you to take it anywhere outside HS to try and do C4's, it just seems like local spikes waaaaay up all of a sudden. Even in WH that was pretty quiet (checked with scouting alt), it doesn't stay quiet for long. The marauders are nothing but gank magnets. Would love to try and do WH's in a couple of Baddons, but the cap recharge rate on those ships even with 5 cap mods/rigs is beyond pathetic.
Don't fly alone and/or unskilled? If you backtrack through the thread, there are vid links of marauders (Paladin included) just decimating cruiser fleets. Even MJD escapes after annihilating a good many cruiser ganker attempts. Of course, if you fit like the OP, forget it You got me, I didn't see all the videos. And hell no, I don't fit my BSs nowhere near as pitiful as the OP's T1 abandoned junkyard fits. All of my fits are solid T2/faction fitted with excellent cap stability but heavy neut pressure are always brought to take down a Marauder, why?. Sigh, I just wished that CCP would include some kind of neut resistance while in Bastion Mode. Bastion mode has 1 weakness I think - neut pressure. It's really not reasonable to want to remove it. There needs to be at least 1 way (other than overwhelming numbers) to beat a ship.
It's a weakness that should be remove for a 1.5 bill isk ship. Neuts, neuts and more neuts is all they bring in blobs making neuts overused and abused. There should be at least a few ships with some kind of nuet resistance and If there is a ship that needs some kind of neut resistance, it's definitely the Marauders. That way it would force cheap gangs to bring that 5k+ dps to take down a Marauder or stay home. |
Pam Demonium
Spy Satellite Network
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 06:28:25 -
[456] - Quote
As long as the big ships are taken the heat, we cruiser jockeys can sit back and lay down DPS
"Your have to know when to foldem, and when to run away" Unlike those space bricks, we cruisers are mobile around the field
Have nuttin bigger then cruiser, and like it that way |
Lan Wang
V I R I I
Triumvirate.
840
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:10:41 -
[457] - Quote
Pam Demonium wrote:As long as the big ships are taken the heat, we cruiser jockeys can sit back and lay down DPS
"Your have to know when to foldem, and when to run away" Unlike those space bricks, we cruisers are mobile around the field
Have nuttin bigger then cruiser, and like it that way
wot? you're killboard is blank 
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16296
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 11:03:16 -
[458] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:
It's a weakness that should be remove for a 1.5 bill isk ship. Neuts, neuts and more neuts is all they bring in blobs making neuts overused and abused. There should be at least a few ships with some kind of nuet resistance and If there is a ship that needs some kind of neut resistance, it's definitely the Marauders. That way it would force cheap gangs to bring that 5k+ dps to take down a Marauder or stay home.
Removing the only weakness these ships have is a bad idea. Most gangs don't bother with neuts these days or dedicate just one ship for the job which means if you remove the irritant first they are free game.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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dor amwar
Interstellar Renegades
Advent of Fate
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 11:57:31 -
[459] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
stuff
bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2063
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 06:46:22 -
[460] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5oeP6RRE3M
Apparently Ravens suck too.
Hooked on this guy's videos now, thanks baltec1
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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|
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2072
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 16:19:55 -
[461] - Quote
dor amwar wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
stuff
bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore.
You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results.
The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16304
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 21:26:28 -
[462] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:dor amwar wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
stuff
bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore. You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results. The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances.
Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10463
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 03:03:41 -
[463] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus. I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16304
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 05:06:42 -
[464] - Quote
Webvan wrote:baltec1 wrote:Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus. I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose.
Fleet work. A fleet of rooks vs slippery petes is a lot of dead rooks.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16598
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 09:56:28 -
[465] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Webvan wrote:baltec1 wrote:Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus. I would think that force recon would be a given, since Tengu or any strategic cruiser does not have the d-scan immunity benefit. All depends what you are doing with them though I suppose. Fleet work. A fleet of rooks vs slippery petes is a lot of dead rooks.
For the purposes of this hypothetical exercise, can we imagine that bombers have been nerfed appropriately?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1128
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 12:25:08 -
[466] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:dor amwar wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
stuff
bs might still have a role in a few places, but i think the role of many ships were replaced by t3 ships long ago. they can be fast, gank, tank, multi-role ... just depends on how you fit them. t3 doesn't have a role, they just take the space of others because they can do x better than that class of ship and still do y... do the damage of a bs, but still be as fast as a cruiser, be as fast as a frigate, and do the damage of a bc. yes, more expensive, but isk doesn't matter anymore. You can use a multi-role ship for plenty of things, but your toolbox has many tools in it. Each tool has uses that it excels at. Each class of ship has it's uses, and when utilized by a craftsman who is truly masterful in that particular tool... well, it can produce beautiful results. The T3 ships do not render the other ship classes obsolete so much as provide a sort of 'multi-tool' which can be employed when you lack the ideal tool, or moreso, craftsman for the job. They let you do more with less pilots, yes. They also are not as well suited as the tools they try to emulate for the jobs at hand. They're plenty powerful, but to say that they supplant the ships they try to emulate is not wholly accurate... almost as good isn't good enough in many circumstances. Give me a reason to make a fleet with any caldari ship that would be better than using tengus.
Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16307
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 14:24:43 -
[467] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man.
This is true and hilarious but t3s are way overpowered for cruisers and still need their savage beating with the nerfbat.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1128
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:53:04 -
[468] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
Maybe not a fleet, but the mating call of a bait raven can be reisted by no man.
This is true and hilarious but t3s are way overpowered for cruisers and still need their savage beating with the nerfbat.
Agreed. I made a moral decision early on in the wh T3 era to not fly them. I do occaisionally (no one is perfect).
As to your challenge.... I would say condors can out do tegus at being condors. That's all I can think of though. There are probably a couple of T2 caldari frig fleets better than the equivalent tengu build. Pulling in price point and the dreaded SP loss I'd say caldari frigs can outperform in a few instances.
Here's the real question, and you can only pick one. Would you rather
1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16307
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 09:34:23 -
[469] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)
I would slap the ishtar silly any day of the week. T3 are stupidly overpowered but sentry ishtars are a plague that saps the fun out of everything they go near.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1129
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 15:47:40 -
[470] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
1. Sentries become BS only weapons to finally balance all that crap out
2. Beat t3s like the were the copy machine in Office Space (most graphically violent movie scene - ever)
I would slap the ishtar silly any day of the week. T3 are stupidly overpowered but sentry ishtars are a plague that saps the fun out of everything they go near.
I look at it differently. The ishtar was fine (if not underused and in need of some small loving). Then the drone modules were added to the game. Soon after that the ishtar and archon fleets became the 'go to' ships (the archon was already in a good spot the addition of modules buffing drones just put it over the top). Nothing on the ishtar changed to make it OP. The introduction of the drone modules are what did it. Not wanting to get in the way of progress (drone modules added some new depth to the game) I'm in favor of taking the sentries away from all but BS platforms. The istar nor the archon need a good slapping, the sentry drone just needs to be limited to a good home (that would be BS hulls).
I notice you didn't say ishtars are a plague, but you did say sentry ishtars.
Other than that I agree. Fix the sentry problem and then go to work on the unfun T3 cruiser doctrines.
What a nice sideways buff to BS if they were the only hull to deploy sentry drones. |
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Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 04:48:55 -
[471] - Quote
The T3Cs have been around for ages now and are very popular. I'd go on the record and say they are the most enjoyable ships to fly in eve. Nerfing such ships to meet your standards Baltec1, would mean the end of eve.
Not everyone enjoys flying Fleet BSs xD. |
Lilith Folkvardr
Nocx Initiative
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 05:39:52 -
[472] - Quote
Okay.. I wasn't going to add to this thread but I just have to say a few things..
Firstly OP, 'batlec1' is known throughout the game as an incredible Battleship pilot for PvP (An a particular Marauder that can **** a gate camp), in fact, if I am right, he even has a long running joke about the Mega, where he will take it anywhere. Adding to that, he has more experience then you do, not just in Battleship hulls, but in the game as a whole.
Secondly, 'Paranoid Lloyd' has more experience in PvP then you ever will, and has valuable knowledge, so, good on you for pissing on that, great idea.. *Sarcasm*
Thirdly, there are also a lot of pilots whom have commented here who, if you took the time to check their zKillboards, you would see that at least 2 of them have solo'd in a BS hull, one gettings 9 kills against a Cruiser fleet, and oh.. Didn't die, yeah..
Fourthly, look at YouTube, there are tones of pilots who fly a BS into Null or Low Sec, get jumped on by an entire fleet, and either A, **** the entire fleet solo, or B, **** 90% of the fleet and die in glorious flames, A few honorable mentions is Mr Hyde113 from Black Legion, one of the 2 reasons for me becoming (On my old account, and spec'ing for it on this character) a solo PvP'er in BS hulls, then there is Otto Von Bismark (The other reason), his work with the Tyhoon is amazing, there is also a few by Johny Pew too.
If you even took one look at this you would understand that BS can be incredible, a Frigate or Cruiser can be incredibly amazing and effective, in the hands of someone who is skilled and trained into that type of ship, but give it to someone unskilled and untrained for it? It will die to anything, same goes for a BS, and stop saying that you know what you are talking about, I looked at your zKillboard, and your fits are rubbish, and T1, not even Meta 4 stuff for the majority of it, you, Mr. OP, have not the slightest idea, based on your zKillboard (And if this is an Alt, then please, show us your main with all this knowledge and skill you say you have), that you don't know the first thing about BS PvP, or even PvP for that matter.
- A trained BS pilot can and will solo a fleet of Frigates/Destroyers/Cruisers.
- A BS can tank upwards of 70k EHP, which most tank fits sitting at the 150-200k EHP. (Without links Or Implants)
- A BS can, and will, volley a Frigate off the map even with only half it's damage hitting.
- A BS can, and will, out DPS, in both tank and damage, a Cruiser, and in some cases, a fleet (Depending on composition).
- A BS shortest range is the maximum range of a Frigate, with most BS being able to hit at 50-100km (Depending on Weapons).
- A BS can and will escape any situation if fit with a MWD and MJD.
- BS can and will our DPS and range and tank any, and all T3 fleets, by a massive margin.
- Some BS (Nanophoon) can out run a BC, I have even seen builds that out do a Cruiser.
- A BS can have tank, DPS, Speed, Utility, all in one package.
Now, deny these facts all you want, it is already common knowledge of those who have read this thread, that you know nothing about Battleships, and are unwilling to learn, you say that a T3 Cruiser can out tank a BS cause of speed, you are right, but can it get the smae ratio of Speed, DPS, Tank, and utility? No it can not, you say a Frigate can kill a BS solo, you ahve never heard of a Neut, of Drones, of Missile systems, hell, do you even know what traversal is? Watch Wreaking Crew's Solo PvP tournament video, there is a amazing pilot in a Naga that can hit and destroy a Taranis, a bloody Interceptor.
All ships in EVE can be amazing, in the right hands, of a dedicated pilot, who knows how to fly it, with the skills to fly it, but since you are so stuck in your ways, I will challenge you to a duel when I get Lilith's skills up to where my old mains was (Which, btw, was under 9mil SP, Lilith was meant as a Hauling Alt, but RL reasons had to make her my main, she was my favorite) and you can have fun solo'ing my Typhoon that can perma tank a 1100 DPS and dish out 560 (That is to an Assault Frigate, thank god for math and graphs) while being able to Web, TP, and Neut an entire Frigates Cap in one cycle.
Mate, these people tried to help you, but you wanted to be a troll, or be a child, I haven't decided, and you threw it in there faces cause they told you were you were wrong, seriously man, we are a community and people like you, that think you know everything better then anyone else, even those who are know publicly for there skills, ruin that with your immaturity, you want to whine like a child? By a pink diary, write it all in there, and put your My Little Pony lock on it. If you want to find out why your fits suck, and why you are having no luck with BS, then post on the forums and get help and acknowledge it when it is given from someone with more knowledge and skill then yourself, I mean, you wouldn't argue with an electrician how to wire a switch board or with a soldier about removing a land mine if you were a fry cook, would you? Same thing applies here.
I really hope you shut up, and look at these posts, and see what people are saying, your view is that way because of your skill, experience and personality, the combined skills and experience of even half the pilots that commented is a million times what you will ever have, and all you took from all of it was what you could nit pick to try and prove to pilots much more experianced then you that you were right, which ended up making yourself look even more newbish. We are here to help, if you don't want help then don't post, and be rude to those who try and help you.
That is all.
First post outside of the New Citizens forums! :D |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1133
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 12:09:28 -
[473] - Quote
Lilith - if you ever want to play wh online - send me a mail. |
Lilith Folkvardr
Nocx Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 12:39:11 -
[474] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Lilith - if you ever want to play wh online - send me a mail.
Going to sound like a moron.. But what is WH Online? Wormholes? Who is this something different? |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
899
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 13:04:26 -
[475] - Quote
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:Okay.. I wasn't going to add to this thread but I just have to say a few things..
Welcome to the fun that is 'Ships & Modules'
We're all already igonring what the OP says lol.... just so happens its actually kicked off a constructive discusion on BS's
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:- A BS can and will escape any situation if fit with a MWD and MJD.
This just isnt true One Scram will ruin your day
No Worries
|
Lilith Folkvardr
Nocx Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 13:52:31 -
[476] - Quote
Quote:This just isnt true Blink One Scram will ruin your day
I am yet to meet a Frigate that can keep me Scrammed when I am using Rapid Heavies :D let alone one of their friends to fill that job after his buddy died in 2 hits, haha! :D I love my Typhoon :P |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
899
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 15:08:28 -
[477] - Quote
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:Quote:This just isnt true Blink One Scram will ruin your day I am yet to meet a Frigate that can keep me Scrammed when I am using Rapid Heavies :D let alone one of their friends to fill that job after his buddy died in 2 hits, haha! :D I love my Typhoon :P Though I have had issues with brick fits with Scrams on a Cruiser hull, bloody Mallers..
Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol
I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater.
No Worries
|
Lilith Folkvardr
Nocx Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 23:32:05 -
[478] - Quote
Quote:Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol
[Stiletto, Fleet]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Coreli C-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater.
It isn't Cruisers in general, I have no problem slaughtering them with my build, it is just bloody brick fit Mallers, haha! Always struggle to remove them before his BS friends warp in, haha! But my build isn't meant to take on Cruisers like that, this is for small Frigate/Destroyer fleets I see so much in Low Sec FW area's, and it is just a rapetrain in it's effectiveness.
That Stiletto looks like a good ship, however, given it is using a Scram, it has to be within 11.3km I think, my heated Web can and will catch it, that is when it pops, in 2 volleys unless your fast on the ASB, then maybe 3, not to worried about Frigates Scramming me like I said, I can handle them, it is just Maller bricks, haha!
Also, good to see a Typhoon pilot, all my mates tell me it is the worst ship, but I love it for PvP, amazing application and survivability, never tried a FI Typhoon though.. To expensive for my tastes, that and I don't want to pilot FI stuff, for RP reasons at least with Lilith :) that and less people will engage a FI i feel, which would be sad :( |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16309
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 23:33:43 -
[479] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:The T3Cs have been around for ages now and are very popular. I'd go on the record and say they are the most enjoyable ships to fly in eve. Nerfing such ships to meet your standards Baltec1, would mean the end of eve.
Not everyone enjoys flying Fleet BSs xD.
No it won't. T3s are way overpowered and have needed a savage nerf for years now.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
356
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 17:07:08 -
[480] - Quote
Lilith Folkvardr wrote:Quote:Unfortunatly cruisers are a thing, which is one of the main arguments with BS's. Also you seem to be talking solo and smaller size fights... peeps only need to keep a scram on you long enough untill theyre friends arrive lol
[Stiletto, Fleet]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Coreli C-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50
Warp Scrambler II
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
I have a similar fit phoon too, so i know what your saying, but when you take it into a fight with say 20 other pilots... the arguement for cruisers or frigates becomes greater. It isn't Cruisers in general, I have no problem slaughtering them with my build, it is just bloody brick fit Mallers, haha! Always struggle to remove them before his BS friends warp in, haha! But my build isn't meant to take on Cruisers like that, this is for small Frigate/Destroyer fleets I see so much in Low Sec FW area's, and it is just a rapetrain in it's effectiveness. That Stiletto looks like a good ship, however, given it is using a Scram, it has to be within 11.3km I think, my heated Web can and will catch it, that is when it pops, in 2 volleys unless your fast on the ASB, then maybe 3, not to worried about Frigates Scramming me like I said, I can handle them, it is just Maller bricks, haha! Also, good to see a Typhoon pilot, all my mates tell me it is the worst ship, but I love it for PvP, amazing application and survivability, never tried a FI Typhoon though.. To expensive for my tastes, that and I don't want to pilot FI stuff, for RP reasons at least with Lilith :) that and less people will engage a FI i feel, which would be sad :(
Ive flown pvp FI phoon. Pretty beast with RHML. Better than t1 phoon tbh, because you get more damage per clip. Where as a RoF bonus just empties your clip faster, doesnt heat as well etc. FI gets more tank than t1, plus a 2nd heavy neut. Between 2 heavy neuts and MJD, its hard to hold it down. Not to mention being able to field 5 heavies and still have room for a set of med/lights.
Im confident my phoon could obliterate that stiletto. Its killed pre-nerf 10mn t3ds no problem.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1786
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Posted - 2015.07.02 20:43:00 -
[481] - Quote
Okay, time for me to weigh in here.
I've been playing on and off for a long time (started in late 2006). In that time a lot has changed. Early on in EvE, battleships composed the bulk of large fleets when facing off against each other. Nothing else had the reach to hit targets and the durability to survive being primary long enough to either warp off or get reps. I got in a lot of experience flying rail Megas in nullsec fleets and brawling boats in hisec wardecs before my extended EvE-vacation in 2010, and when I left battleships were in a pretty good place.
I came back about a year ago and found battleships to be very rarely used outside of PvE and certain niche PvP cases. The warp speed changes had slowed them down, bombs made them vulnerable in nullsec, and T3s could often do the same job while maintaining better mobility. But in spite of that, battleships are still used by a handful of folks to incredibly good effect even if the masses have turned their backs on them.
What I've noticed is that the folks who still fly battleships as front-line combat ships have, by and large, been flying them for a long time. It's not the newer groups who are using them, it's the old guard who have been flying them for years. You could say that they just use them out of a sense of nostalgia, but I disagree.
You have to know how to fit and fly a battleship to use them effectively.
This may sound like an obvious statement, but I'm amazed by how many newer players I've talked to don't get this. Flying battleships takes skill, and I'm not referring to skillpoints. You can't just fit a battleship like an oversize cruiser or an undersized dreadnaught and expect it to fight well. You have to play to their strengths; which are range, damage output, durability; and use planning and guile to overcome their weaknesses, which are low mobility, slow lock speed, and reduced application. You need to know when to use battleships, how to use them, and where they should be on the battlefield. Chasing around a group of cruisers with a pure battleship fleet would be folly, but dropping a battleship or two in the middle of a cruiser brawl after you've already engaged can be highly effective.
Said another way, in order to fly battleships well you need a solid FC who really knows battleships, or at least be a player with the same knowledge who can apply it to other fleets with some degree of autonomy or use it solo. And from what I can tell, those players are in relatively short supply these days.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.03 01:21:56 -
[482] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:The T3Cs have been around for ages now and are very popular. I'd go on the record and say they are the most enjoyable ships to fly in eve. Nerfing such ships to meet your standards Baltec1, would mean the end of eve.
Not everyone enjoys flying Fleet BSs xD. No it won't. T3s are way overpowered and have needed a savage nerf for years now.
A savage nerf will ruin these ships, ships that thousands of pilots in eve fly and greatly enjoy. The sub rate for eve now is the lowest I've seen in the 3 years I've played this game, the annihilation of T3Cs would be the final blow for eve old timer.
You seem to judge ships based on their roles in fleets, but you forgot old timer that not everyone plays this game in fleets. Believe it or not some pilots in eve actually play this game solo. And from a solo standpoint the T3Cs are definitely not OP. T3Cs have very tiny cargo holds and cap capacity which means all it takes is just ONE heavy neut to ruin any T3Cs day. Not to mention that you lose SP when you die in these ships xD. They are SLOW even when using the fuel catalyst sub, the fastest speed you can reach is around 1.3k m/s (with links, bling, & implants). The only attribute that is a little high is their base ehp which is around T2 BC level. Other than that, if anything these ships can use a buff and if CCP would be so kind, they can add an off setting ROLE bonus to these ships like:
*CANNOT BE USE IN FLEETS.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10569
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Posted - 2015.07.03 04:09:47 -
[483] - Quote
It's been almost two weeks since Baghdad Bob posted in his own soapbox thread here. He biomass? 
Common man, you can do it. It's not over! *fans the remaining embers* |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2015.07.03 04:50:27 -
[484] - Quote
Webvan wrote:It's been almost two weeks since Baghdad Bob posted in his own soapbox thread here. He biomass? Common man, you can do it. It's not over! *fans the remaining embers*
Probably got temp banned for excessive trolling.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16312
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Posted - 2015.07.03 13:40:54 -
[485] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
A savage nerf will ruin these ships, ships that thousands of pilots in eve fly and greatly enjoy. The sub rate for eve now is the lowest I've seen in the 3 years I've played this game, the annihilation of T3Cs would be the final blow for eve old timer.
You seem to judge ships based on their roles in fleets, but you forgot old timer that not everyone plays this game in fleets. Believe it or not some pilots in eve actually play this game solo. And from a solo standpoint the T3Cs are definitely not OP. T3Cs have very tiny cargo holds and cap capacity which means all it takes is just ONE heavy neut to ruin any T3Cs day. Not to mention that you lose SP when you die in these ships xD. They are SLOW even when using the fuel catalyst sub, the fastest speed you can reach is around 1.3k m/s (with links, bling, & implants). The only attribute that is a little high is their base ehp which is around T2 BC level. Other than that, if anything these ships can use a buff and if CCP would be so kind, they can add an off setting ROLE bonus to these ships like:
*CANNOT BE USED IN FLEETS.
Same argument was used for the nano nerf which impacted every single ship, EVE thrived. Same argument was used again for tracking titans, drone swarm supers and everything else that was overpowered.
Cruisers should not be getting top end cruiser speeds, very low sigs, battlecruiser firepower, high end battleship tanks all while being cap stable. The need a savage nerf because of how out of whak they are for their class. They are cruisers, they need the stats of a cruiser not shiptypes two classes above them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
899
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Posted - 2015.07.03 14:11:06 -
[486] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:
A savage nerf will ruin these ships, ships that thousands of pilots in eve fly and greatly enjoy. The sub rate for eve now is the lowest I've seen in the 3 years I've played this game, the annihilation of T3Cs would be the final blow for eve old timer.
You seem to judge ships based on their roles in fleets, but you forgot old timer that not everyone plays this game in fleets. Believe it or not some pilots in eve actually play this game solo. And from a solo standpoint the T3Cs are definitely not OP. T3Cs have very tiny cargo holds and cap capacity which means all it takes is just ONE heavy neut to ruin any T3Cs day. Not to mention that you lose SP when you die in these ships xD. They are SLOW even when using the fuel catalyst sub, the fastest speed you can reach is around 1.3k m/s (with links, bling, & implants). The only attribute that is a little high is their base ehp which is around T2 BC level. Other than that, if anything these ships can use a buff and if CCP would be so kind, they can add an off setting ROLE bonus to these ships like:
*CANNOT BE USED IN FLEETS.
Same argument was used for the nano nerf which impacted every single ship, EVE thrived. Same argument was used again for tracking titans, drone swarm supers and everything else that was overpowered. Cruisers should not be getting top end cruiser speeds, very low sigs, battlecruiser firepower, high end battleship tanks all while being cap stable. The need a savage nerf because of how out of whak they are for their class. They are cruisers, they need the stats of a cruiser not shiptypes two classes above them.
I would go as far to say they need less tank than a "tanky" cruiser when fit that way, less speed than the "faster" cruisers etc etc... as it stands now if someone says "I need a cruiser to do X", X is a T3 cruiser way too often...
T3's offer variation in a single ship, but shouldnt be "better" than another dedicated cruisers role.
AND they shouldnt be able to fit for tank and dps and speed and whatever... pick one. make it good. but not the go to for tha roll. (better to have a Vaga if you want speed, better to have a deimos for damage etc)
No Worries
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Perihelion Olenard
208
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Posted - 2015.07.04 08:08:09 -
[487] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Same argument was used for the nano nerf which impacted every single ship, EVE thrived. Same argument was used again for tracking titans, drone swarm supers and everything else that was overpowered.
Cruisers should not be getting top end cruiser speeds, very low sigs, battlecruiser firepower, high end battleship tanks all while being cap stable. The need a savage nerf because of how out of whak they are for their class. They are cruisers, they need the stats of a cruiser not shiptypes two classes above them.
It is why I have no reason to train command ships on this character. Why would I fly an Eos or Astarte for pure combat when I can fly a Proteus with more bonuses, particularly the relatively long warp scramble range? My slave set makes my buffer pretty crazy for a cruiser, even with several low slots towards weapon damage. My MWD requires hardly any capacitor. Blaster projection with null is good with a blaster setup. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
1205
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Posted - 2015.07.04 12:35:49 -
[488] - Quote
astarte is cheaper and honestly does more damage and can tank more dps. |
Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.04 14:15:22 -
[489] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:
A savage nerf will ruin these ships, ships that thousands of pilots in eve fly and greatly enjoy. The sub rate for eve now is the lowest I've seen in the 3 years I've played this game, the annihilation of T3Cs would be the final blow for eve old timer.
You seem to judge ships based on their roles in fleets, but you forgot old timer that not everyone plays this game in fleets. Believe it or not some pilots in eve actually play this game solo. And from a solo standpoint the T3Cs are definitely not OP. T3Cs have very tiny cargo holds and cap capacity which means all it takes is just ONE heavy neut to ruin any T3Cs day. Not to mention that you lose SP when you die in these ships xD. They are SLOW even when using the fuel catalyst sub, the fastest speed you can reach is around 1.3k m/s (with links, bling, & implants). The only attribute that is a little high is their base ehp which is around T2 BC level. Other than that, if anything these ships can use a buff and if CCP would be so kind, they can add an off setting ROLE bonus to these ships like:
*CANNOT BE USED IN FLEETS.
Same argument was used for the nano nerf which impacted every single ship, EVE thrived. Same argument was used again for tracking titans, drone swarm supers and everything else that was overpowered. Cruisers should not be getting top end cruiser speeds, very low sigs, battlecruiser firepower, high end battleship tanks all while being cap stable. The need a savage nerf because of how out of whak they are for their class. They are cruisers, they need the stats of a cruiser not shiptypes two classes above them.
That was a long time ago, when eve was still a relatively new and refreshing game with many unexplored possibilities. You think the same thing would happen again where eve has reach the deadlock stage (meaning newer players are much rarer now as eve has now become a veteran only game). Among the vets of eve, I'd say a good 75% of them fly T3C extensively. Whoever thought of the idea of bringing out the T3Cs outdid themselves and now the T3Cs are a mainstay ship class in eve. The only way CCP would get away with destroying them is if they replace them with another ship class that replicated their previous uses. Right now I'd say the only ship class that can do that are the CSs, that is assuming CCP intends on taking care of these forgotten hulls. |
Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.04 14:28:40 -
[490] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:astarte is cheaper and honestly does more damage and can tank more dps.
Only for a limited time. This ship doesn't have as good a cap as the Proteus. Proteus can permatank 900 dps while doing 750 dps using cap matrix sub.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16320
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Posted - 2015.07.04 19:45:59 -
[491] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
That was a long time ago, when eve was still a relatively new and refreshing game with many unexplored possibilities. You think the same thing would happen again where eve has reach the deadlock stage (meaning newer players are much rarer now as eve has now become a veteran only game). Among the vets of eve, I'd say a good 75% of them fly T3C extensively. Whoever thought of the idea of bringing out the T3Cs outdid themselves and now the T3Cs are a mainstay ship class in eve. The only way CCP would get away with destroying them is if they replace them with another ship class that replicated their previous uses. Right now I'd say the only ship class that can do that are the CSs, that is assuming CCP intends on taking care of these forgotten hulls.
Again, the same argument you just made were used when CCP did the nano nerf.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16644
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Posted - 2015.07.04 21:09:19 -
[492] - Quote
I'm flying a Battleship right now!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.05 00:12:04 -
[493] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:
That was a long time ago, when eve was still a relatively new and refreshing game with many unexplored possibilities. You think the same thing would happen again where eve has reach the deadlock stage (meaning newer players are much rarer now as eve has now become a veteran only game). Among the vets of eve, I'd say a good 75% of them fly T3C extensively. Whoever thought of the idea of bringing out the T3Cs outdid themselves and now the T3Cs are a mainstay ship class in eve. The only way CCP would get away with destroying them is if they replace them with another ship class that replicated their previous uses. Right now I'd say the only ship class that can do that are the CSs, that is assuming CCP intends on taking care of these forgotten hulls.
Again, the same argument you just made were used when CCP did the nano nerf.
I'm not that experienced enough nor are others around my age to just flock to another ship class when they all of a sudden become useless. If CCP removed the Tengu and Protues from it's current place in eve, I would be lost as what to fly in eve. The Cerberus and Deimos don't come close to the versatility that their T3 big brothers provide. What other ship class could replace them? If they leave the void empty, I'm 95% certain it would have a whiplash effect and the sub rate would drop another 30-40% (including myself & alts). Unless they buff the CSs (t2 BCs) to match the current T3Cs standards, the consequences would be dire old timer.
Man I just hope when CCP decides to open a forum discussion on rebalancing the T3Cs, that they DON'T take your advice. Old timers like yourself have forgotten what's it like for newer players when they're finally able to get a handle on a game like eve.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10704
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Posted - 2015.07.05 00:54:14 -
[494] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
I'm not that experienced enough nor are others around my age to just flock to another ship class when they all of a sudden become useless. If CCP removed the Tengu and Protues from it's current place in eve, I would be lost as what to fly in eve. The Cerberus and Deimos don't come close to the versatility that their T3 big brothers provide. What other ship class could replace them? If they leave the void empty, I'm 95% certain it would have a whiplash effect and the sub rate would drop another 30-40% (including myself & alts). Unless they buff the CSs (t2 BCs) to match the current T3Cs standards, the consequences would be dire old timer.
Man I just hope when CCP decides to open a forum discussion on rebalancing the T3Cs, that they DON'T take your advice. Old timers like yourself have forgotten what's it like for newer players when they're finally able to get a handle on a game like eve.
Expect it, EVE is always in the process of rebalancing and meta changes. Everyone has gone through it. We adapt. If you had been here during the long night, the time of original WiS development focus, you might appreciate the constant ship changes now compared to the broken then.
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Ortilus Orsides
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.05 01:45:35 -
[495] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Ortilus Orsides wrote:
I'm not that experienced enough nor are others around my age to just flock to another ship class when they all of a sudden become useless. If CCP removed the Tengu and Protues from it's current place in eve, I would be lost as what to fly in eve. The Cerberus and Deimos don't come close to the versatility that their T3 big brothers provide. What other ship class could replace them? If they leave the void empty, I'm 95% certain it would have a whiplash effect and the sub rate would drop another 30-40% (including myself & alts). Unless they buff the CSs (t2 BCs) to match the current T3Cs standards, the consequences would be dire old timer.
Man I just hope when CCP decides to open a forum discussion on rebalancing the T3Cs, that they DON'T take your advice. Old timers like yourself have forgotten what's it like for newer players when they're finally able to get a handle on a game like eve.
Expect it, EVE is always in the process of rebalancing and meta changes. Everyone has gone through it. We adapt. If you had been here during the long night, the time of original WiS development focus, you might appreciate the constant ship changes now compared to the broken then.
Maybe, maybe not. Watching videos of the 100mn Tengu in it's glory days was an delightful experience....sigh if only I was playing eve during those days.
And yes when they were that strong I can understand your reasoning (baltec1) for wanting to destroy them, but they are nowhere near that strong now. I wouldn't be surprise if baltec1 was victimized by these OP ships in those days, which explains his prejudice attitude towards them now.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16320
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Posted - 2015.07.05 05:04:34 -
[496] - Quote
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
I'm not that experienced enough nor are others around my age to just flock to another ship class when they all of a sudden become useless. If CCP removed the Tengu and Protues from it's current place in eve, I would be lost as what to fly in eve. The Cerberus and Deimos don't come close to the versatility that their T3 big brothers provide. What other ship class could replace them? If they leave the void empty, I'm 95% certain it would have a whiplash effect and the sub rate would drop another 30-40% (including myself & alts). Unless they buff the CSs (t2 BCs) to match the current T3Cs standards, the consequences would be dire old timer.
Man I just hope when CCP decides to open a forum discussion on rebalancing the T3Cs, that they DON'T take your advice. Old timers like yourself have forgotten what's it like for newer players when they're finally able to get a handle on a game like eve.
What do you think we did when CCP took away our 8 heatsink geddons? Or when they took away the ability for cruisers and frigates to outrun missiles?
Your argument is hollow, you will adapt to whatever the new fotm is when t3 cruiser get put in their correct place just like every other "inexperienced" player did back when their overpowered toy got fixed.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1821
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Posted - 2015.07.05 13:22:31 -
[497] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cruisers should not be getting top end cruiser speeds, very low sigs, battlecruiser firepower, high end battleship tanks all while being cap stable. The need a savage nerf because of how out of whak they are for their class. They are cruisers, they need the stats of a cruiser not shiptypes two classes above them.
Any two of those things simultaneously on a T3 wouldn't be inherently broken. Some combinations of three may even be acceptable.
But all of them at once is too much.
No one ship class should be able to do it all, and do it all so well.
And no, price is not a justification. In the era of massive alliance SRPs replacing lost T3s en masse, balancing by price is utterly ineffective.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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