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Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 03/12/2006 04:23:17 Heres an idea. The whole system is broke, who care if it was buffed/nerfed it was broke to begin with. Any system that sayd 'Player skill, player skill, player skill... DICE ROLL" is broke. Who gives a ** if the dice roll is broke. The system was broke to begin with. Fix it. (edit: Yes im drunjk.. but my point still stands. kinda) Originally by:** Victor Ramirez using it to get the layout of a new system and a quick belt-check is about as practical as using Google Earth to see if your car is still in front of your house.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:45:00 - [32] Edited by: slothe on 03/12/2006 04:48:55 use racials basically. no more multi-ecm being the i-win button is good imho. oh and as its kinda random, im fairly sure that another player in a similar situation using 6 ecm could jam every time with luck. when i used a scorp for pvp pre-kali im fairly sure i fitted 4 racials and 2 multis - the racials for the bigger ships with higher ecm strength and the multis for frig and cruiser sized support ships. if you use this setup please send me 5 mill isk thanks. oh and i may disagree with the guy above. ecm has been changed many times. long gone are the days of cycle jamming (im in mixed minds whether this is a bad thing) when there was certianty but arguably scorps were overpowered. ecm has been tinkered with many times in the new system which does show that devs are listening to us. i suspect , and hope, the balance of ecm v eccm is good now. we shall see. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:59:00 - [33] i tried taking 2 caldari racials, 1 minmatar and 1 gallente with 2 multis.. i struggled to jam a raven with no eccm i have 40+m sp's and very specialised in jamming with bs 5 etc so im pretty much maxed out for jamming skills.. i also had the damage output of a fish.. i could never have broken its tank... i then tried this same setup vs a domi... the only jammer that was getting jam cycles were the caldari jammers.. wheres the sense in this ? Even if a scorp does perma jam a battle ship... youll never break its tank with the way things are in kali now.. its drones would kill you before you could break its tank easily, especially with you having no tank either because you need to fit the low slots with boosters to increase the strength of your jammers
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:07:00 - [34] Scorps were overpowered in RMR and before but tanking its ability to tank in lows should of sorted that but instead it cant tank and has P**s weak jammers meaning at somepoint your are going to fail especially how fights are now goign to last longer because of increased HP! Even with max skills and racials. Tonight ive tested it alot with hypnos singal amps in the in lows and racials ..the scorp hasnt a chance against a damn BC .. its weak DPS isnt enough to kill anything .. (as long as the BC tanks long enough which is easy now with increase HP)and the drones alone are enought to kill the scorp and thats a scorp with BS 5 and maxed out jammer Skills against my 700k sp in drones .. and you dont see this being wrong ?
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Commander LoC i tried taking 2 caldari racials, 1 minmatar and 1 gallente with 2 multis.. i struggled to jam a raven with no eccm i have 40+m sp's and very specialised in jamming with bs 5 etc so im pretty much maxed out for jamming skills.. then you surely know that caldari ships are the most difficult to jam with highest strength natural eccm. its probably better using sensor dampners on ravens and scorps instead of using ecm. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:11:00 - [36] Originally by: HIdden Canary Tonight ive tested it alot with hypnos singal amps in the in lows and racials ..the scorp hasnt a chance against a damn BC .. its weak DPS isnt enough to kill anything .. (as long as the BC tanks long enough which is easy now with increase HP)and the drones alone are enought to kill the scorp and thats a scorp with BS 5 and maxed out jammer Skills against my 700k sp in drones .. and you dont see this being wrong ? need more info. what was the strength of your racials when fitted. what was the bc. did the bc have eccm? *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:41:00 - [37] Edited by: Commander LoC on 03/12/2006 05:41:52 i guess your not a jammer, i understand what your saying but with my skills and stuff i shoulda jammed him alot of the battle.. not saying all just saying most of but i was only getting very very few cycles. And damps ? lets just forget bonus's to ships and work against them. The point of the ship is jamming.. not dampening.. jamming on scorps was fine before kali.. why break it.. just take away its tank and make it have signal amps in lows as long as it could do what it did before thats understandable.. but they take away the tank and the jamming for it.. its completely useless. Everything weve been trying is with no eccm's either.. imagine whats gonna happen if people fit eccm aswell.. i doubt youll even get a cycle.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:46:00 - [38] Quote: . its probably better using sensor dampners on ravens and scorps instead of using ecm. Then whats the point of ECM dedicated ships then ? if your just putting damps on? you may as well buy an a arazu or lachesis! Quote: what was the bc. Brutix and ferox (tryed both at sep times) Quote: did the bc have eccm? No and i would have to look up strenghts
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:07:00 - [39] Quote: Then whats the point of ECM dedicated ships then ? if your just putting damps on? you may as well buy an a arazu or lachesis! Look cool atm ingame. For everything else, try a Lachesis. If you manage to get your hands on a Sensor Dampener strength rig = win _______ Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:17:00 - [40] I dunno WTF you guys are b#tching about. My mates and I jam everyone we try to jam, ECCM or not. Jamming hasn't changed one bit since Revelations. It's still 100% effective as far as I've seen. ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction

Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:25:00 - [41] Confirmation Bias
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Confirmation Bias Yes, I concur, the OP is indeed suffering from Confirmation Bias. ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:58:00 - [43] my ecm still works.. tho im considering carrying tp/td/damp as well from now on. you never know what might become useful. Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.12.03 07:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. Well yes. Total jam == broken. Partial jam 4tw. the problem is that there needs to be a reason to bring a scorp to the fight. partial jam = death atm. you miss a cycle, and just about anyone can put you into structure in 20 secs. Before, if you missd a cycle, you got a second chance with a 4 slot armor tank. You certainly aren't going to kill somebody with a scorpian. An EW ship with close to max skills needs to be almost positive to perma jam a ship in it's own class. Again, it can't kill something in it's own class before the guys friends can make 30 jumps to save him, so a scorp pilot has to have another friend who can kill the ship it is jamming. look at this scenario, you have 2 enemy BS's camping the GM-EC gate. a raven and a mega. You bring a scorp while your buddy brings a abbadon. your buddy in abbadon jumps in, get's the mega to commit, and webs him. you jump in after, and jam the raven. What you are trying to do is make the mega a 1 vs 1 fight against your friend, with your armor rep drones helping him out plus the pitaful dps of your missels.. the mega is webbed so he can't turn his blasters on you, and BBQ your fragile ship. Say it works out, you keep the raven perma jammed, and you make the formaly 2 vs 2 fight a 1 vs 1 + a frigate or destroyer dps. If you can't rely on keeping the raven perma jammed, then you might as well bring a DPS battleship.
Ishidu Uryuu Caldari N00B SquadroN	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:03:00 - [45] Tux should make ECM like it was in the begining w/o this ****ty roll dice and chance base. All that it should be done that time is add optimal and fall of to ECM.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:06:00 - [46] My battleship is still getting jammed. My m8s falcon is still jamming multiple battleships. And cruiser blobs aren't all fitting ECM anymore. ECM is fine.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:24:00 - [47] Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Stop bringing it to the table. Anything can jam anything else - it is a matter of chance. As for the nerf - I would rather they had reduced the strength by 1/3, instead of 1/2. Rigging brings the specialized ECM ships back up to snuff, but damnit, rigging isn't gonna be common if it takes as long to get as an officer spawn. ECM is nearly useless on non-ECM ships, which isn't how it should be. 20% per level racial bonuses aren't common in the game for a reason - diversity. It's a slight improvement, moving from moderately overpowered to a bit underpowered, but you can't please everyone.
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 10:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Feygor Gaunt Edited by: Feygor Gaunt on 03/12/2006 02:11:55 i like the change it is very good in moment ecm destroy the fun in battles Only if you consider mindless bashing on ships "battle". I have a feeling that EVE devs only like tanking and banging. This is the game of paladins. If you compare EVE and GW(i know, eve is different), EW ships are like Mesmers, Logistic ships are like monks. Battleship, HACs and other ships are like Warriors/Paladins. Logistic ships are useless. Devs are nerfing EW ships all the time. A simple advice to anyone who is willing to play this game for a while. Train for HAC or battleships(TANK and DMG ships). I can assure you that they wont be nerfed like recons or EW ships. But in the end what do i know? I am just a noob with some time to think weird things like this. ______________________________________________________________
Void wolf	Posted - 2006.12.03 12:16:00 - [49] Edited by: Void wolf on 03/12/2006 12:17:39 Edited by: Void wolf on 03/12/2006 12:17:17 "Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Stop bringing it to the table. Anything can jam anything else - it is a matter of chance." They take a ew ship and take the ew out of it, might as well take tanks out of ships to and turrets, missles and "cloak out of cov ops" Do guns or missles work on chance? No they work on math/angle/speeds/sigs that all determends the damage output. why do ships have senser Strength then? If you have say 18 jaming strength in any racial and you jam a ships that got say 14 senser strength, you better be able to prmajam the thing, whats the point of a turret with 150mm sig and a ship with a 400mm sig hit all the time, should the turret by "chance" miss? no it dosen't. They nerfed jamers so hard that you need like 5-7 jams and best skill just to get it up to cruiser/bc senser strangth and even then if you still have higher jaming strength its Still "Chance" you going to miss. So What the point of senser strengths again? they should of made just one and only one type of jam and so its 50% to jam and thats it. The hell With skills, just one skill to use that 50% jamer so its based on luck and nothing to do with math/sience/skils.
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.12.03 12:53:00 - [50] Originally by: HIdden Canary At the min the scorp has exactly the same bonus as its elite cruiser counter part i think ccp didnt really think about the bonuses too well for example a falcon takes you 104 days to train to fly (give or take) with no skills and that doesnt count the jamming skills and it takes you 2 days to fly the black bird and they have the same strenght bonus WTFs that about? Resists and speed. why fly a Hac over a BB, why fly an inti over a frig, why fly a cruiser over an Af. . .```````the list goes on, and it boils down to speed and resits in the end and e-peen for some).

Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:25:00 - [51] Blah blah blah, rabble rabble rabble. Scorps and falcons aren't as good as before granted. Few tweaks would fix that since the ecm multis got nerfed hard, but Rooks are ok, but you need to be VERY good and the new mods need to be out first. Look at this. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:48:00 - [52] I say 'lets apply the ECM dice roll to everything in Eve.' So that ceptors attacking a Cruiser only do damage every 2'nd or 3'rd shot. Nos only hit every 10'th time and drones only launch and attack once every once in a while. Naa.. Seriously. Why not just take the pre kali ECM and nerf it with 50% and then just give the ECM ships a static 100% bonus to ECM. Problem solved and everything is as it should be. And to ppl Whining about A Scorp or Rook being able to jam multiple ships. Well a Curse can TD multiple ships with a 100% chance of success making then useless against everything except static targets. I would like to see TD's affecting missiles too. since the only thing that affects missile users are SD's.
Dar Wento Gallente Fallen Angel's Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 14:27:00 - [53] Edited by: Dar Wento on 03/12/2006 14:27:54 My two ISKs on the jamming-ships... They're supposed to be support-ships to the rest of the gang/fleet and not solo gank-mobiles of doom. Post-Kali you need to fill up your lows with ECM boost-mods and let another ship shield-tank it remotly if/when needed to stay alive. Personally I feel that this is a valid "nerf" to the ECM-capabilities overall. As Tux said, use racial jammers instead of multis and you will do fine. Adapt or die. Regards, /Dar.
R0b1n Ho0d Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.03 16:48:00 - [54] static bonus 'Role Bonus' just like recons get with cyno. Make dedicated ECM ships the only major viable ECM platform.
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:01:00 - [55] Posted - 2006.12.03 14:27:00 - [53] - Quote Edited by: Dar Wento on 03/12/2006 14:27:54 My two ISKs on the jamming-ships... They're supposed to be support-ships to the rest of the gang/fleet and not solo gank-mobiles of doom. Post-Kali you need to fill up your lows with ECM boost-mods and let another ship shield-tank it remotly if/when needed to stay alive. Personally I feel that this is a valid "nerf" to the ECM-capabilities overall. As Tux said, use racial jammers instead of multis and you will do fine. Adapt or die. Regards, /Dar. Im guessing youve jumped the forum and not read what weve said in the past ? weve used racials and there still pretty much useless... your gonna have to fit 8 racials of one race to keep some sort of nice jamming on a ship and your still gonna miss alot of cycles then. ECM is completely broken.. i put a multispec T1 fitted it to my vagabond and it jammed a curse... whats that about ? im still trying stupid weird things but with being in a ECM ship seems to not help at all, dosnt matter what ship your in seems that jammers still work the same on every ship
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:04:00 - [56] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 03/12/2006 17:07:08 Thing is the people that ae going "stop whining" are the ones that only know bout jamming from being jammed but if you actually fly the ships. you would see at this point there is something wrong with the system, ECM ships are supposted to be ECM platforms and are supposted to be support ships but think about it this way, fleet fight first thing usally targeted is a scorp/rook/falcon... so on ... just because of its jamming potental no matter how many jammers you have if you have multiple Bs firing on you are as good as dead, was same pre kail but before if you were called primary you at least had a slight chance of jamming enough to take the initial hits, but now you have to slam most ur jammers on 1 target to semi jam him meaning if your called primary your DEAD simple as ... so whats the point ? they made it a support ship that cant support a fleet correctly
David Koresch Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. QFT. 3 times in a row by a myrmidon --------------------------------- Carebearin' in a hi-sec near you!
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:09:00 - [58] a fleet support ship ? jaming ships cant support themselfs atm nevermind a fleet lol
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:44:00 - [59] You have to set your jamming ships up to jam now, its as simple as that. The Scorp is slightly underpowered I reckon, this could be resolved by increasing the bonus to 20% per level or by providing the Scorpion with an extra lowslot so it can properly take advantage of the new ECM damage mods. The other tier I BS's have 1 more slot than the Scorpion anyway (apart from the Domi which is pretty good already ;E ). Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:52:00 - [60] Quote: extra lowslot so it can properly take advantage of the new ECM damage mods Problem is after 4 modules the stacking pens start kicking in and more mods effects aint noticeable, thanks for trying tho , at least some people care about where eve is going and not just going "whine whine whine " Liek someone said in another post i read the game isnt baout skill or tactics its about who has the biggest guns and the best Tank, brute force over tactics and skill,



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