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Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:11:00 - [211] Originally by: Sol Mortis I fly a rook, with skills being recon: 4, signal dispersion: 4, all other ECM skills are 4. I certainly haven't maxed out my ECM skills, but they are quite high. I've only had my rook for a little under three months, and I have a couple scorps and countless blackbirds scattered all over. All of these ships are now worthless to me. I am sick of reading posts from characters who have never flown a Blackbird, Scorpion, Rook, or Falcon fitted for Ewar. These people go out in their Domis and luck-jam every so often with a multi thinking "oh, so it must be this easy in an Ewar ship" ignoring the fact that an ewar ship lacks a decent tank or any means of inflicting damage. Flying electronic warfare is one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in the game, as it is the only chance-governed role in the game. Flying in a rook is high stakes; with the cost of a fitted ship often exceeding 200mil, the durability of an egg, and the only defense (and offense) working ~40% of the time at best. Jamming was already like playing Russian Roulette only with the gun pointed at somebody else, but at least it was a .38 caliber revolver. Now it is like Russian Roulette with a cap gun. Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines. Sunto eccellente
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:23:00 - [212] now it's like russian rouleEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:23:00 - [213] now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE
TDX	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:22:00 - [214] Originally by: DarkElf now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE Why should the people who spent all there time on training these particular skills have to change there ways? Due to it all being screwed up? Your saying that cause you have a totally different way of skills and so on, i bet if they nerfed your setup, you'd be the first to complain. And if you dont like it "sell the ships and train something else up" but that wont happen now will it? So you can stay nice and warm and know your ok. So shut up please and move on to next troff
Lo Rin	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:36:00 - [215] Not sure if this has been posted, cause I'm not reading through 8 pages of this. But it looks like ecm is just support now like the rest of ew. It sucks that ecm ships have gone from strong to just support but that's how it is. Target disrupters mess with turrets but not missles. sensor dampners mess with missles but not up close turrets. And ECM now does an overall reduction in damage instead of reliable lockdowns. ECM seems to be meant for longer battles or fights with multiple enemies. Use 5 ecm modules on 5 different targets over the course of a few minutes and you'll reduce their dps output and ability to ew your side. Also, I don't think any of the ew ships of any race do their best when all they use is one type of ew. And correct me if I'm wrong but caldari ew ships still have the most mid-slots for ew. Since reliably locking down ships is no longer possible, ecm ship users should concentrate on just reducing the overall effectiveness of enemies, I mean you don't have to use all your lows and mids to do that, just as many as you choose to. I could be wrong though.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:47:00 - [216] Edited by: DarkElf on 09/12/2006 13:48:29 Originally by: TDX Originally by: DarkElf now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE Why should the people who spent all there time on training these particular skills have to change there ways? Due to it all being screwed up? Your saying that cause you have a totally different way of skills and so on, i bet if they nerfed your setup, you'd be the first to complain. And if you dont like it "sell the ships and train something else up" but that wont happen now will it? So you can stay nice and warm and know your ok. So shut up please and move on to next troff wow. i love getting smack talk on forums. you are a big man. did u even read what i said? guess not. let me repeat i used to use amarr bs all the time until they got major nerfage so u know what i did? i changed. re trained gallente which are good atm. some day they'll get nerfed so i'll train whatevers good at the time. mmorgg change all the time and u have to adapt. also try not being quite as abusive next time u want to talk. DE EDIT - and if ur gonna talk tough at least post with ur main
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.09 17:25:00 - [217] Darkelf i think youve gone abit mental here, yes that morris guy did over exagerate abit.. but so have you.. Not everyone wants to be " i have the biggest guns " people like to play eve differently thats why we have miners.. we have pvp'ers.. i mean come on.. we have what some people call role players ? if people can play eve differently why cant people go to combat differently.. the way its going people have to have bigger guns and thats it.. dosnt matter about anything lse just have bigger guns that make sure can hit and youve won.. not everyone wants to play like that Darkelf i have to disagree on your previous posts. You know full well ecm is broke and does need a fix. Obviously it shouldnt be amasing but it shouldnt be as crap as its currently gone. Your only use to flying a big fat ship with big fat heavy guns or drones.. and blowing the hell out of someone.. not all of us ( i do ) want to do that. Some people prefer a defensive role instead of offensive.. guns being offensive jammers being defensive. Think you need to review what youve said and leave ecm alone seems you dont use an ecm ship these days :)
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.09 17:43:00 - [218] I mean No offense darkelf but you were asking for the smack ! you did come on to a ECM jamming post and kinda have ago. Ive known you along time and i know your hate ECM but how many times have you asked for ECM support.. How many times have i helped you out of a situation, ECM plays a part in combat even if you Hate it! and i do agree when the game changes you adapt, there is something way wrong with ECM at the min. Ive flown Ecm Ships alot as you know .. and when it comes to a vexor that jams a Domi with 2 cycles (one after the other) and a scorp that cant jam a vaga something is wrong !!! its a joke but since the launch of kali ive been jammed more times by NON jamming ships then ever before !!! the Nerf only F*ED up DEDICATED ecm ships. which are useless now. For example Dark many a time youve Gone i have 2 ravans and a domi blah blah .. need your scorp .. but now it wont be coming out of the hanger till something changes ! Quote:** i have flown ecm ships for a very long time Not since Kali tho m8 way before if i remember right !
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.12.09 20:34:00 - [219] I spent a lot of ISK on Hypnos Multi's for more BB and my scorp and now it's just sitting in my hanger. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:29:00 - [220] Just like everyones Ecm ships dude :P gathering rust !

space bear Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:27:00 - [221] Originally by: Commander Wingpop (...) Ive flown Ecm Ships alot as you know .. and when it comes to a vexor that jams a Domi with 2 cycles (one after the other) and a scorp that cant jam a vaga something is wrong !!! its a joke but since the launch of kali ive been jammed more times by NON jamming ships then ever before !!! the Nerf only F***ED up DEDICATED ecm ships. which are useless now. (...) Sounds more like a bug rather than a nerf to me... So, why claim for a boost when what is obviously needed is a fix on ECM ships ? Maybe this would clear a lot of misunderstanding here ;)
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:20:00 - [222] yes its true ecm ships are naff train something else xD knowledge is power.... guard it well
Pham Sirge VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.10 12:00:00 - [223] Hi all, I fly ECM in fleet(scorp) and its now a joke. I always get called primary, the funny thing is with the current state of ECM Im not even jamming enough ships to have an impact. 99% of the time I dont even get 1 complete cycle off before Im forced to warp out. In small gang it doesnt get much better my jammers fail so often that Im forced to make a run for it, before their tacklers catch me. With no tank and no resistances Im a sitting duck, if my jammers fail one cycle. ECM need drastic change. Im not asking for it to be I-win but in its current state it is worse than tracking(screws any gunnery ship, could use a boost to missile ships) or sensor damps(screws all snipers). I have to give up all my mids and my lows and my rig slots(not that I can even afford them) and I cant even kill anything. , <VTIL> Pham Sirge
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.10 18:28:00 - [224] Originally by: DarkElf rook can still perma jam a bs. Indeed. The keyword here being "can". So CAN a griffin. Or even a dominix :) . In a chance based system anything can happen. This does not mean it happens often enough for someone to depend on it. Originally by: DarkElf big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. Yeh. I did that :) . Doing good so far. Still i miss my EWAR role tough. Just nostaliga i guess.
Spacehulk Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.10 23:46:00 - [225] Sol Mortis nabbed it head on. For those who have no idea on fleet combat, go try it out first. A jammer is primary most of the time and now without being able to tank or jam for one cycle before needing to warp off you are useless. Fights that I have joined, once 3 other BS target your scorp you warp out and have half armour (from an armour tanked ship) left. Both sides use jammers so what applies to me also applies to the jammer in the other group. Once you have max Cruiser, Recon, Battleship and Signal Dispersion skills (All maxed means all lvl 5 .. duh) and you jam for squat then its a problem. ECM is broken worse than before Kali. They used to say ECM is over powered when you had to stack modules on a single ship to jam it. Guess that was way better than it is now. One Scorp could perma Jam 2 ships ... rarely 3 ships ... but would never be worse than that for a fleet battle. With the chance base a Scorp could jam 7-8 ships. Bring back the old system and enhance ECM strength on ECM ships. Strengthen Resistance of an ECM ship so if you need to dedicate jammers on it then you disable it and wont be able to disable another ship. Bring back stacking ECM, increase ECM bonus on EWar ships and increase Gravimetric strength of Ewar ships. 1 Scorp should be able to jam 6 frigates with Racials, 3 Cruisers and 2 BS ... Enough to cause havoc in small groups and not at all in large fleet war. Freedom Technologies
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:55:00 - [226] I agree ECm is either nerfed too far or Broke !
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:06:00 - [227] Yes, this is not a scientific test. Probably because I'm not a scientist... But I was getting so grumpy looking at my $60mil of Falcon sitting in my hangar doing nothing I decided to try some min-max setups... So I packed it full of racial ecms, signal dispersion amps in the lows... signal boosters in the mids... one or two other goodies.... ripped out the heavy missile launchers in the highs to give me the necessary cpu/grid... (left the probe launcher in)... So that means no dps, and nothing more than its naked tank... With extensive and high ecm skills (tho not maxed)I was feeling hopeful the setup may be enough... undocked and attempted to lock a corpie in a frigate fitted with one named eccm. one jam in eight cycles average success rate... Falcon back in hangar, this time repackaged. Was going to test a similar minmax on my rook... but why bother? So... i've been avoiding playing the McDonalds version of Eve for years (big guns v big tanks)... now I don't have a choice, it seems.
Seriya Caldari Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:39:00 - [228] I agree that the ECM specialist ships are hit overly-hard by the nerf. They lose their lowslots and are still much less effective. Also because the jammer base strength is so much weaker, the % bonus that ships and skills grant does way less than it used to. I don't want ECM strength where it used to be pre-nerf but I do think there should be a slight boost. Something like: - Scorpion gets 20% strength per level (not 10%) - Blackbird gets 15% strengh per level (not 10%) - Signal Dispersion skill gives 7.5% per level (not 5%) - Distortion Amps grant 20%-30% instead of 16%-20%
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:04:00 - [229] So basicly.. your saying if i train up for.. lets say an I-Win domi.. then they nerf my I-Win domi that makes it unfair because i put all that time in for my I-Win ship? Thats like saying.. oh its not fair that he gets an air rifle and i get a mini gun.. now im only aloud to use a pistol.. IT STILL WINS.. ECM was.. and potentialy is way overpowerd i mean c'mon one ship able to completly remove a Dreadnoughts ability to lock and shoot? or 5 ships at once?.. you talk as if its the end of EVE as we know it.. yet you don't seem to relise that not being able to tank is one thing but when you use ECM and that effectivly tanks your entire fleet then it's another matter... why the hell should one ship be able to perma disable another? Originally by: Aramendel A harderner also only works against ships firing on you. ECM is effeciently a harderner for your whole gang/fleet.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:32:00 - [230] I can't figure how someone think ECM is balanced when a ship has to sacrifice all of his lows to be somewhat effective. What about requiring from Curse pilots to use all their mids to get the same damage level? This is nonsense. A Scorp, Rook or Falcon should get the same strength as before Kali without using their lows, and the lowslot enhancers should be removed from the game. But chanced based ECM will always be bad. Before the ECM overhaul last year many voiced their concerns about the incredibly stupid idea of chanced based stuff in a combat game. They went on with their change... and the pre-Kali mess happened. So now they pretty much removed ECM from the game and everybody is happy, besides Caldari ECM pilots. CCP needs to revamp the whole ECM concept, it will never work in it's current implementation. If 'partial jamming' was possible, they'd probably have gone that way already, so I guess it's not. So guys, forget it, it will never change and it's better not to fly ECM ships until everybody has forgotten about Scorps or Rooks and we are not called primary anymore. When pigs fly. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.

DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.11 03:50:00 - [231] I've never trained for battleships... I wanted to play something other than the standard punch and tank game.. So, given my ignorance, how much did the I-win Domi's sacrifice to get the "i-win" gun button? At the moment, flying a dedicated ECM boat is flying with an "i-lose" button as they have: 1) no tank, 2) no dps and 3) no strength in their "dedicated" field... All for a nice cheap price in ship, fittings and skill points. I wonder if those who flew the nerfed "i-win" domi's had to retrain the bulk of their skills after the nerf? Meh
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.11 03:55:00 - [232] Agree. I know of a few rook pilots who mothballed or sold their recons because even with max skills they couldnt jam things. - - - These elite slaves are exceptionally well suited for physical labor.
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.11 10:02:00 - [233] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 11/12/2006 10:12:13 Page 8, no offical response. So maybe everything works as expected and/or we are a bunch of whiners. Anyway: Would be nice to know if this is the (new) deal and everything works as expected or if there is a bug with dedicated ECM-ships. Tried to jam a Thorax a week ago with 2 SDA in lows. No successfull cycle in my Scorpion with proper t2-racial until rax went down. Training for damagedealerships now. Better deal then maxing the 2 remaining skills (Caldari BS 5 and Signal Dispersion 5) and still not be able to jam anything while going down as fast (or faster) as pre-Kali. -- Boost ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
Quantasia	Posted - 2006.12.11 11:34:00 - [234] ECM is a specialists work - you have to train rather hard for it to just use it in pvp. After all these ECM nerfs it seems that it has become useless now - and for once and all these kind of SP are wasted until a rebalancing takes place. Some of you might ask why its useless atm - here is the answer : Lets take the typical amarr whiner (let's say DarkElf) - he still can use his SP and ships in PVE to grind etc. He can still (as he admited) learn other guns and BS and still he can use all these support skills for any other gun. For the ECM pilot its nothing he can use anymore .. sad but true, he has, IF he wants to be a damage dealer, to learn from the scratch. the second reason is the play-style of a person. there are really ppl out there we rather be versatile on ew than doing wtfbbquberdamage - why? why not! 2cents from me....
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:13:00 - [235] Any news Tuxford?
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:20:00 - [236] Originally by: Felice Remillard Any news Tuxford? I, too, would be very interested to know if the devs feel ECM ships are fine or they are still being looked into. With all the new stuff Kali brought i cant help but feel the ECM-ship balance issue is getting pushed under the carpet. They were nerfed along with ECM and have been forgotten in the sea of other things which must now be tested and, possibly, balanced.
Seriya Caldari Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.12.12 00:58:00 - [237] Also would be really interested to see the dev's take on ECM, particularly ECM specialist ships post-Revelations.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.12 06:30:00 - [238] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 12/12/2006 06:30:38 Quote: ECM is a specialists work - you have to train rather hard for it to just use it in pvp. Yeah i can say to you with maxed out skills and recon and BS 5 jamming still sucks you still cant jam ! I also would like to see what the devs say because as it stands there nerf just killed ECM dedicated ships ! a good % of caldari ships !
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.13 01:50:00 - [239] Okaaaaay........ All us painfully trained and prepared specialist ECM/covops pilots have been feeling the pain of the ECM nerf... But last night a compatriot found his cruiser repeatedly jammed by a t1 frigate with a hypnos multispec... Lemmie guess: the new "luck" factor in EVE?
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:19:00 - [240] So Tuxford, after this patch has settled down, any chance of a comment in this thread? Cheers, Stein.



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