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HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:26:00 - [151] TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! which sucks so either osmething wrogn or the system/nerf is too much
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:34:00 - [152] Something needs doing baout the current state because 85% maybe more of caldari ships are useless now can you say heros to zeros over night !
JFxSummoner	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:38:00 - [153] EW nerf good, but EW ships (rook, scorp, bb, falcon) need a far better better bonus to ecm modules as of now they are almost useless less you are a rook pilot then still you are dissadvantaged.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:48:00 - [154] Originally by: Commander Wingpop as Kole44 said alot of people have spet along time at Training such skills for ships like the falcon and rook where as at this point its a total waste of time i my self fly a rook and even that with Faction jammers and officer jammers it couldnt jam a scorp even once! It's so terrible that you can afford faction and officer jammers. What a lousy game this is! -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:51:00 - [155] Originally by: HIdden Canary TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! He'd just warp away, dude, and you still wouldn't get the kill. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:15:00 - [156] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: HIdden Canary TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! He'd just warp away, dude, and you still wouldn't get the kill. Totally True but not the point !
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:18:00 - [157] Originally by: Cythrawl First off, the Rook, if we get a full set of t2 low slot signal dis amps and 2 of the ecm str rigs with lvl 5 recon can have a HIGHER sensor str than before in RMR. We just need the mods. None of the other ships can though. Are you sure about that? While I was running numbers while writing my blog entry about ECM (that I just wrote today, in fact), I found that a Blackbird with Caldari Cruiser 5 and a pair of T2 ECM mods could come out almost 6% higher than its old, pre-patch strength. Of course, it would also be short thousands of armor HP since it can't fit any plates in its low slots either. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:18:00 - [158] yep im sure tested it for a long time !
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:29:00 - [159] Then tell me what part of 0.5 (half of the original ECM strength) * 1.4086 (what EveGeek says two stacking penalized T2 amps give) * 1.5 (level five Caldari Cruiser) does not equal 1.05645. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:23:00 - [160] Originally by: GC13 Then tell me what part of 0.5 (half of the original ECM strength) * 1.4086 (what EveGeek says two stacking penalized T2 amps give) * 1.5 (level five Caldari Cruiser) does not equal 1.05645. Erm....if one mod gives 20%, I find it hard to believe that two stacked mods gives 40.86% ? Maybe I'm wrong
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:35:00 - [161] Well, the second mod is penalized to somewhere around 85%. (1 + (0.2 * 0.85)) * 1.2 = 1.404, so it seems to flow about right to me. Unless both EveGeek and I drastically misunderstand the stacking penalty. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:51:00 - [162] Originally by: GC13 Well, the second mod is penalized to somewhere around 85%. (1 + (0.2 * 0.85)) * 1.2 = 1.404, so it seems to flow about right to me. Unless both EveGeek and I drastically misunderstand the stacking penalty. Well it's probably me not getting why two 20% mods stacked can give a 40.4% bonus....Shouldn't it be 1+(0.20)+(0.85*0.20) assuming 20% per mod and 85% effectiveness of the second mod. Thus yielding a total modifier of 1.37 (37%) ?
Naskaya Caldari Elegance Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:13:00 - [163] The BB is fine for the moment, i've managed to jam regulary with one multi and 4 differents racial. No more permajamming, but still efficient with at least one ecm booster in low. The scorp should be brought to 20% strengh to fulfill its role as an EW BS, and the rook should reach about 25%, to mark the difference between T1 and T2. Seems fair to me.
Dire Lonestar Caldari Global Isk Network Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:40:00 - [164] Originally by: Aramendel Yes, lets all conventiantly ignore that there is now a 20% lowslot booster for ECM. Fit 2 of those and you get a 40% boost. Add 1 ECM rig and you are with a rook at a +49% boost to ECM - 1% less than pre-kali. What? Need the lows for an 1600mm plate and an EAN2? I thought ECM ships cannot tank? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it too? You should talk of things you know, because you are pretty ignorant about ECM modules. First of all the low slot ones available to the market are the tech 1 non-named, 16% bonus with stack penalties. So you can dream 40% bonus. Second, the ecm rig too is unavailable and it will be for a long long time. In the meantime should we simply ignore problems to not feed the trolls? Third, a little tanking with a scorpion is required because it's ALWAYS named as primary target and a pilot knows that warping in and out is the only way to avoid being killed in a few seconds. That tank helps him just to have 30 seconds more to do that, not to substain serious damage. Live another day... climb a little higher... find another reason to stay....
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:08:00 - [165] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 06/12/2006 10:10:56 It's pointless to "argue" with Aramendel, so please stop feeding this "ECM is teh ebil and I don't care what you are saying and which numbers you bring"-troll. I like to discuss ECM even with critical minds but I prefer the ones which know what they are talking about and don't twist around others words so it fits for what they try to suggest. -- Buff ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:41:00 - [166] Any word from Tuxford on this?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:54:00 - [167] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 11:00:17 Originally by: BaneMaker Well it's probably me not getting why two 20% mods stacked can give a 40.4% bonus....Shouldn't it be 1+(0.20)+(0.850.20) assuming 20% per mod and 85% effectiveness of the second mod. Thus yielding a total modifier of 1.37 (37%) ? Thats not how stacking of modules (and skills) in eve works - they always* multiply each other. GC13 is correct here. If you have 2 modules which gives you +50% you get 1.5 * 1.5 -> 2.25 of the original value. If you have 2 modules which give you -50% (for example shield/armor harderners) you get 0.5 * 0.5 -> 0.25 of the original value (if there would be no stacking penalities on both cases). If modules would stack like you think 2 55% harderners would give over 100% resistance (after the stacking penality). Originally by: Dire Lonestar You should talk of things you know, because you are pretty ignorant about ECM modules. First of all the low slot ones available to the market are the tech 1 non-named, 16% bonus with stack penalties. So you can dream 40% bonus. Perhaps you should take your own advice. On the market where my shopping alt is right (Heimatar/Rens) now there are 2 +20% hypnos mods available. Quite expensive of cource since they only just got added to the drops and demand is currently a lot higher than supply. But guess what: that are only shortterm problems. Do you see people complaining that HAM are underpowered since there are no t2 modules and onyl few good named for them? No - because this would be utterly moronic. They got only just released. Of cource there will be availability problems at the start - that should be glaringly obvious. But those problems are only shortterm and will solve themselves. They do not require a dev to fix them. Quote: Second, the ecm rig too is unavailable and it will be for a long long time. As said before, even without the rigs you still get over 90% of your previous effeciency. With the rigs you can get more than your old effeciency. They are an added bonus. Quote: In the meantime should we simply ignore problems to not feed the trolls? Whining for boosts because of availability problems which will be over in a month is reasonable? Quote: Third, a little tanking with a scorpion is required because it's ALWAYS named as primary target and a pilot knows that warping in and out is the only way to avoid being killed in a few seconds. That tank helps him just to have 30 seconds more to do that, not to substain serious damage. And why is it called primary? Because it is by leaps and bounds the most dangerous ship in the nenmy fleet. If ECM would be "underpowered" or "ineffective" this would not happen. And nothing stops a scorp to fit 1 or 2 1600mm plates. And have with 2/3 ECM mods 84%/94% of it's old effeciency. And have just the same tank as what other fleet BSs can fit after their guns, tracking enchancers and damagemods. Originally by: Tanya Kovacs It's pointless to "argue" with Aramendel, so please stop feeding this "ECM is teh ebil and I don't care what you are saying and which numbers you bring"-troll. You can say pretty much everything about me, but not that I ignore numbers. Actually, all you seem to do is to ignore mine.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:05:00 - [168] ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great!
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:27:00 - [169] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Did you even read the OP? or anyone else's comments? I'm thinking they've broken ecm atm cos ppl have been trying to jam me and not managed it once. it's fantastic DOWN WITH ECM Yarrrrrrr! DE
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:45:00 - [170] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Pigs will fly when a Scorpion will solo win against 3 other BS. Anyways still comments from NO-ECM pilots = useless
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:57:00 - [171] Originally by: Alchimista Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Pigs will fly when a Scorpion will solo win against 3 other BS. Anyways still comments from NO-ECM pilots = useless isn't that exactly what he just said? scorp can't solo 3 bs because it's a support ship. u just argued with him but made the same point lol. and also not the point whether it can solo or not. the point is ppl are saying it's ecm effectiveness is not what it should be, ie the system is bugged. DE
NIkis	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:26:00 - [172] Edited by: NIkis on 06/12/2006 12:27:34 since the modules been so severely penalized, i would have expected an increase in bonus on dedicated EW ships yea sure .. when pigs fly happy i didnt train ECM more than just the basics will have to sell that scorp tho... gathering dust in hangar for 3 months now oh and for the above posters, scorp solo locking down 2-3 ships is called stalemate not winning.. it just depends whose friends will arrive faster
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:38:00 - [173] Originally by: NIkis since the modules been so severely penalized, i would have expected an increase in bonus on dedicated EW ships i thought they did get a bonus boost didn't they? DE
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Aquae-Sulis	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:26:00 - [174] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Bit of a common misconception this one. A Scorpion against 3 Battle Ships wouldn't win even if if permajammed all 3 of them. It's DPS is just too pathetic (a common occurence with all of the ECM dedicated ships). At best it would end up being a stalemate. At worst, the enemy would warp off. Please, stop thinking theses ships were ever effective solo ships. They are not. They are fleet ships with one ability, jamming people. Let them do it.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:28:00 - [175] I find it funny reading the last few pages you can tell who actual flys and who doesnt fly ecm ships ! ECm ships are useless simple as my BAttleship cant jam a Cruiser ! either soemthings wrong or the nerf went too far, sorry but ECM is our main bonus its like making ravnes missiles Chanced based it just wont happen ! so why nerf ECM ships them selfs it was non ecm that needed nerfing.
Kalek Astroth Amarr The Electrocuted	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:01:00 - [176] i think ecm now is fine (speaking as an ecm pilgrim pilot) before was a powerfull device , now it s ok , someone is used to have the i win button , that s no more , i can understand the reasons of the dedicated ecm ships whine s , may be ccp will boost your ship bonus to balance this in next patch but i hope ecm will never come back to the previous (un balanced) strenght
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Kalek Astroth i think ecm now is fine (speaking as an ecm pilgrim pilot) before was a powerfull device , now it s ok , someone is used to have the i win button , that s no more , i can understand the reasons of the dedicated ecm ships whine s , may be ccp will boost your ship bonus to balance this in next patch but i hope ecm will never come back to the previous (un balanced) strenght Sorry, but again someone didnt get the point. You are not an ECM pilot just cause you fit an ECM on your ship. We are talking about dedicated ships (CALDARI) that cant reach the same strenght as RMR, making those "dedicated" ships a piece of crap now.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:18:00 - [178] 90% of original = piece of crap?
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:31:00 - [179] Originally by: Aramendel 90% of original = piece of crap? When talking about a ship whose only form of attack is also it's only real form of defense, which has the shield and armor strength of a paper bag, and whose ECM didn't always work to begin with, then yeah - 90% of original is pretty much a piece of crap.. And that's with giving up all your low slots!.. The Griffin, Blackbird, Rook/Falcon, and Scorp (maybe) all should have gotten a +100% bonus to ECM strength to keep them at RMR levels..
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:55:00 - [180] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 19:57:03 Well, then wait a month till CCP has the rig situation balanced and throw 2 t1 ECM rigs on it. E vola, same strength as pre-kali. Good time to try out these "uber" damperner & tracking disruptor EW to get some perspective how good ecm was compared to other EW systems (and still is). Btw, it's not only ECM which got an effeciency reduction, t2 ammo also got their dps reduced by about 10%.

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