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HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:03:00 - [121] Sorry it just makes me angry when people that dont fly the ships start the lecture ! thats all and i agree ECM dedicated ships need help !
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:06:00 - [122] Originally by: mallina so you missed ONE jam cycle and think that jamming is now useless you just want to be able to keep 3 people permajammed at the same time :/ If using correct ECM towards the specific strength, and also utilizing those ECMmodules on a ship designed for EW, i see no reason why not. A Raven can nuke any ship with no problem using t2torps and BCUs, so why should not a specced pilots be able to chainjam multiple ships using EW at good ranges. Please come up with a better arguement next time. Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
Veryez	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:15:00 - [123] If a Scorp w/max skills and 4 boosters in lows can't jam a vaga something is wrong. The Vaga's probability of not being jammed each cycle is less than 6/10000. This sounds more like a bug than a nerf.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:22:00 - [124] yeah a vaga ! but only since kalis launch ! and i started the post to make sure it wasnt just me .. and 5 pages of other people with the same thing says its not just me
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:05:00 - [125] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 05/12/2006 02:04:50 It was possibly overnerfed but it needed something radical done as a multi was almost standard fitting on nearly every pvp setup. From a pvp point of view, being permajammed = dead every time, regardless of weak damage output, if whatever you are attacking can never hit you, you will win ... So, the chance system is the way to go but CCP's version may need tweaking ... but if a ship can permajam everything else every time it means that it is overpowered. If that were happening then burn eden, ginger magician and lofty would all be flying scorpions ... the fact that they arent is a good sign that it is either a)balanced or b)a little underpowered But i fully understand the whine, you never get dev luvvin in this game unless you whine for at least 15 or 20 pages ... in about 10 threads alas, poor risk and reward, I knew you well
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:29:00 - [126] i Mean god damn it takes ccp 5 days to fix probes lol so god help ECM !
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:41:00 - [127] Originally by: Commander Wingpop i Mean god damn it takes ccp 5 days to fix probes lol so god help ECM ! I believe we will see a change to ECM ships after Deimos is fixed _______ Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
GT Maximus Ascent of Ages R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:16:00 - [128] Edited by: GT Maximus on 05/12/2006 03:18:53 Edited by: GT Maximus on 05/12/2006 03:16:03 My Rook and Scorp are worthless. I've spent 3 days trying every setup I could think of and every one posted on the forums. I'll try again when I can get my hands on the rigs, but until then there is no sense even flying these ships. I hope CCP is listening, and I feel bad for anyone who has spent the time to max out their skills in ECM. Back to training torps.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:27:00 - [129] Multispectrals need to be removed, and total jam needs to be removed and replaced with partial jamming. Being jammed shouldnt make you dead in the water. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Statics A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:32:00 - [130] Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sh*t, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. Thanks CCP! ----------

Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.05 04:40:00 - [131] I totally agree a ship setup shouldn't be based on if you can get the rigs or not! thats like saying my raven has massive DPS but i cant get launchers ! I just hope someone is listening to us all !
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.12.05 05:05:00 - [132] Originally by: Statics Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sht, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. Thanks CCP! Nobody is using ECM in the tournament because it was BANNED from the tournament. Why was it banned? It is overpowered, and they realize it makes for boring fights. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?*
Garonis	Posted - 2006.12.05 06:07:00 - [133] Ecm is Broke, simple as that. I undocked with a corp mate, me in my rook, moderate skills (4) withe t2 jammers. i got a good jam maybe 1-7 cycles. this was against a ferrox. the ratio went up slightly when he switched to a caracal. 2-7 or so. whats the point in skilling up, and then going through the expense of buying and fitting out the ship thats supposed to be the hands down best jammer in the game? better to fit a tank and use it as a cheap cerberus... oh wait, thats the even cheaper drake : / Thanks CCP!
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:17:00 - [134] Hmm well. Interesting thread. I fly Rooks, Scorpions and Falcons myself and I absolutely agree that something has to be done. The ECM specialised ships are worthless as they are now. They are paperthin with the damageoutput of wet cardboard -WHICH is fine if they could defend themselves and their gang via ECM. I for one am not using either Rooks, Falcons or Scorpions again before this becomes better balanced. I mean - the problem with ECM in RMR was that everyone was fitting 1 or 2 multispecs for PvP - right?. I never ever saw anybody whine about being jammed by a Rook or a Falcon in combat - only Caracals, Domis and what not. I have nothing against the lowslot SDA's for boosting the ECM - but they should be for ECM dedicated ships only. So you wont find them on a domi for instance. Increase the CPU need to 1000 and lower it for ECM boats. About rigs - well ffs forget about those! They are going to be insanely expensive, and I for one wont be fitting them on a PvP ship that's going to be called primary in every single engagement. Besides - everyone can fit them, so it is hardly a boost to ECM boats. So - what is the use for Caldari Recons now? Dunno...The Rook tanks up nicely, but it is still gonna be called in every engagement because people think it's carrying ECM... I dont care about damage - I want ECM on these boats only. Hell - remove all the fricking gun and turret hardpoints and give some decent ECM output again...would be better that today.
Pham Sirge VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:34:00 - [135] Hi all, My scorp is useless. I am not going to fly a useless ship into combat. Grats, CCP Fleet combat is now BS snipers and tacklers. , <VTIL> Pham Sirge
UBERPWN Amarr LDK	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:36:00 - [136] 2 days before my alt warped into the belt and ended up 5km from the Scorp. Got insta scrammed, webed and jammed. Was tanking that ship for 2 mins with a passive tank in my Hurri and actually manged to fire a volley. Eventually got killed by some cruise missiles and a Hammerhead I - now that is what I call frustrating. So no I don't see how jamming is crap and on the other hand why to use 6 multispec, maby better use 4 racial (for 4 different races) and 2 multispec? I might be wrong though.
Grim Starwind Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:40:00 - [137] Edited by: Grim Starwind on 05/12/2006 07:41:16 EDIT: Oh look, someone else did post this idea just a few posts up. hehehe. Okay, I read the first few posts and couldn't be bothered reading 5 pages. So incase this idea has been posted my bad.. but... RIGHT from the start when they talked about nerfing ECM I had a better idea. (I fly the ecm ships, scorp, rook etc..) anyway, My idea was that instead of nerfing the actual mods so they are useless.. make ALL ecm modes require like LOADS of CPU to fit.. you know, like a covert ops cloak or strip miner. And give the dedicated ecm ships an extra bonus that takes -99.9% cpu need to fit the ecm modules. That way they'd still be good and everyone else would still get nerf. CASE SOLVED?!!
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 09:18:00 - [138] If people think the ECM nerf was so severe then STOP using the ships and modules, its that simple. If the slight nerf is such a big problem for you, you must be doing something wrong. I for one will keep using my ECM ships - they work, its that simple. even with my limited skills im very very effective with ECM's, so how the more skilled (SP wise) players can whine about the effectiveness of these modules i cant quite fathom. Yes your nber "nobody can touch me" ship aint all that untouchable anymore - Stop using and relying on multi's. A high SP char in a rook, with rigs and low boosters will still get a 60+% chance to jam some BS's - and 40-50% on a scorp - dont tell me that 1 module which has that high a chance to incapacitate a battleship, is a weak module. Im simply not buying it.
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:27:00 - [139] I think quite a few people have stopped using their ECM ships. I didn't think the nerf was intended to do that. It seems a shame that 'misuse' of ECM by non-dedicated ships has brought a nerf which has also negatively affected the dedicated ships. I think it was right to stop every PvP setup with a spare mid-slot fitting a multi-spec and for it to be so effective. However, given this has hit specialist ships which are called primary but have no tank (even less now if you try to boost your ECM strength), have highslots but put out very low DPS (i.e. can't solo) and now can't effectively do their role in gang (just before they get popped as primary don't forget) then I think the nerf needs some 'Tweaking'. I like the idea of dooing a 'CovOps Cloak II' on ECM mods and making their CPU massive but giving the ECM ships a bonus (this might also be good for the other forms of EWAR). However, given the change currently implemented, a small boost to the ships ECM bonus would, I think, help the current problems a lot.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:33:00 - [140] I'm inclined to point out the falcon can still jam from like 150km away and merely cloak if it fails to jam. It was abit over nerfed in my opinion but I'm going to adapt, so should you.

Morty DuAquin Caldari Quantar Swords	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:58:00 - [141] why are there allways trolls trying to ridicule a serious topic ^^ Tux should post here asap. and he should tell us if it was intended to overnerf ecm. -- Tuxford: They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down.
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:58:00 - [142] Originally by: Kehmor I'm inclined to point out the falcon can still jam from like 150km away and merely cloak if it fails to jam. It was abit over nerfed in my opinion but I'm going to adapt, so should you. Kehmor, you're right. The Falcon has 2 defenses, range and cloaking. However, if you can't jam then you just have an expensive CovOps frig. The other ships now have just one defence, range which if used properly means you now have a ship with absoultely no DPS which can jam less effectively than before and can still be primaried by long range ships. A slight tweak on the ECM strength on these 5 ships would sort most things out.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:13:00 - [143] Originally by: HIdden Canary Guess thats a no!ROFL seriously when you fly the ship and experience it and not just what its suposted to be on paper then comment It's not a "No", it's a "It doesn't matter". Since you haven't answered my question either I guess it means you haven't finished grade school yet, right? Again, fact is that with the right setup the ECM ships retain their jamming strength. You can whine about it as much as you want to, thats a fact. Not that I have much hope in you realizing this, consideringyou were whining multiple times in this thread how a scorp cannot kill a domi, which is about as stupid as a curse pilot whining he cannot kill a raven. Well...DUH! You are suffering from a severe case of comfirmation bias... Quote: dont you think if it was just me i would of shut up along time ago but alot of people are sayign the same so dont you think theres something there ? Lets see... Jamming is much more skillbased now and also dependant on sacrificing any armortank (which shouldn't matter since multiple people claimed that ECM ships cannot tank anyways) for ecm mods. Obviously this will result in many people trying their previous I-WIN setups, failing and yelling "Ohnoes! ECM is broken!".
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:25:00 - [144] Originally by: HIdden Canary Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ??? you shouldnt be useing multispectrals mr multi's are next to useless you MUST use racial to be effective....and trust me a CURSE can jam a couple cruiser no prob with the right racials... just fit a veriaty of racials and you should be ok better if ya knwo what type of ship your up against "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates un barred and ungarded" http://users.net4u.hr/~maza/gr/sigs/TigerClaw
Exogene	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:39:00 - [145] Edited by: Exogene on 05/12/2006 11:41:39 Edited by: Exogene on 05/12/2006 11:39:53 Originally by: Statics Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sh*t, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. edit p.s. he didn't use any low slot modules to strengthen his jamming Thanks CCP! First of all jamming is not allowed in the Tournament...Second jamming still works well on non-ECM ships , my m8s tried ECM multispec jamming, a dominix trying to jam a Raven and it was successful most of the time. Jamming was never 100% and never will be so quit your whining already... Edit: p.s. He didn't use any low slots to strengthen is jamming ability
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:41:00 - [146] Someone said that a scorp shouldn't be able to lock down multiple ships in a fleet. Well what happens if a Lachesis put 1 damp on a sniper Tempest or a Curse put 1 T-disrupt on a Apoc? Isn't those ships effectivly out of the game for a good while until they have crossed the distance they need to beable to lock or fire on the other ships in the fleet? And doesn't a Lachesis use 5 damps and a Curse 4 T-disrupts? And there is no randomness in those, they always hit. But the most hillarious comment was that a Blackbird would solo kill a battleship because it can jam. That battleship would probably unjammed get killed by a frigate too.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:56:00 - [147] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Originally by: HIdden Canary Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ??? you shouldnt be useing multispectrals mr multi's are next to useless you MUST use racial to be effective....and trust me a CURSE can jam a couple cruiser no prob with the right racials... just fit a veriaty of racials and you should be ok better if ya knwo what type of ship your up against A typical fleet setup Scorp will have 2 sensor boosters and 3 types of racial jammer in pairs. At the moment I will not use the Scorp anymore which is a shame really since I maxed for jamming and it is now weaker than it was unless I sacrifice plates for the ECM strenfth mod. The scorp and BB allready have crap damage output and a pretty weak tank if they are used for what they were designed. On a side note PPL like you using ECM on ships like the Curse allthough entitled to are the reason the change was brought in because it was far too powerfull on anything. Every mothers son was using it! In short ECM still works on chance based math and therefore some ppl will be jammed maybe even all the time in one encounter. But the fact still remains the strength of it was nerfed and even dedicated EW ships like Scorpions were hit as well and whatever you ppl feel about it for me it sucks! I'm considering sticking 6 T2 sensor dampeners on the Scorp now. Who knows if everyone did that they'd be nerfed as well and they'd be made crappy in a patch even on ships like the Arazu!
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:33:00 - [148] First off, the Rook, if we get a full set of t2 low slot signal dis amps and 2 of the ecm str rigs with lvl 5 recon can have a HIGHER sensor str than before in RMR. We just need the mods. None of the other ships can though. But at the same time... Small tweaks to the str bonuses would fix everything. The scorp and falcon should have a much bigger bonus IMO and all the recon ships should have their ecm bonus applied from the caldari cruiser skill, not the recon ship skill itself. Possibly UP the bonus on the signal distort skill that it gives a bigger bonus to the str of ecms, 5% to say 10%. Blackbird and griffin right now are fine. The shouldn't get the bonus they're getting and hope to jam out BS size ships constantly. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
Quantasia	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:43:00 - [149] Some things in EVE can never be fully appreciated nor understood unless experienced firsthand. Some things in ECM can never be fully understood by someone who neither builds ECM equipment nor runs an operational ECM ship.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:09:00 - [150] Edited by: Aramendel on 05/12/2006 15:13:01 Originally by: Jeanpierre Duvall Well what happens if a Lachesis put 1 damp on a sniper Tempest or a Curse put 1 T-disrupt on a Apoc? Isn't those ships effectivly out of the game for a good while until they have crossed the distance they need to beable to lock or fire on the other ships in the fleet? Nope. Because the SD & TD EW ships have no range bonus and also have a lower base range than ECM to begin with. They can be used to optimal effect up to 50k, with reduced effect within their falloff between 50-100k. Their effeciency at sniping distances of 150-200k is about on par with that of a blastermega. So as anti-longrange EW you can pretty much scratch TDs & SDs. So, what about shortrange? They work effeciently there, but still have compared to ECM a lot of loopholes. A lachesis can disable a BS just nicly there, but 1 damperner will still not bring it below 20k targeting distance. Works for the lachesis, but not if you have gangmates which have to go closer - if you want a real disabling effect (targeting distance of 5k or less) and in order to compensate for the common sensor booster you'll need 3 damperners on a BS target. And solo there is also the problem of targets outrunning you - a lachesis does not have the "breath" to keep a BS or cruiser with a MWD at a distance long enough to kill it. And nevermind frigates, a ÷achesis is an easy target for a small frigate gang. An ECM ship can permajam 1 frogate per jammer and escape there. TDs are even more extreme there. One TD is usually not enough to stop BS sized weapons to hit a cruisersized target unless you have a speedfit. Their effect vs medium sized ACs and blasters is also basically nil - an AC rupture will eat an arbi with 3 TDs alive. And, again, vs frigates you might as well not bother to activate them unless it's a sniper setup with rails or arties. Also, nevermind that unlike dampeners and ECM TDs have no effect at all vs: missiles, nos, warp disruptors, webs, ecm, damperners. And it is also a lot more vulnerable vs drones since they can still be send against it even if they were in the dronebay or at another target when their owner got agressed. ECM has simply no real loopholes. It has the highest base range and neither gets less effecient at closer ranges. It does not care what the target has in it's high slots. It also does not loose effeciency vs smaller targets like dampeners or TDs do, in fact it gets more effecient vs those.



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