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HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:45:00 - [1] Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ???
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:49:00 - [2] I kinda agree. It should have been nerfed but right now it became too much. The nerf could perhaps only apply to non-ew ships and the dedicated ships gets the full monty as before? Would make more sense imho. Perhaps even making it so that non-ew ships cant even mount EW modules? Cheers, Lowa What if the truth was something else?
Marcus Alkhaar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:55:00 - [3] Gentlemen, may I offer you a bottle of WHINE? Originally by: darth solo I dont blame XS, tbh if i was in there shoes i wouldnt fight us either, its like bringing a caldari mountain sheep to fight a gallante war wolf(u like how i kept that in character
Rugrat	Posted - 2006.12.02 22:59:00 - [4] Marcus Alkhaar, may i offer you a bottle of shut the f*** up ? :)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:02:00 - [5] Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:02:00 - [6] Yeah i totally agree, what has happened to ecm is kinda over-nerfed. No ecm dedicated ships shouldnt be able to use ecm as good as they use to be able too, but ecm dedicated ships should definitly be able to jam pretty much anything.. i understand they can miss cycles its only fair but having to run so many jammers to be able to semi-jam 1 ship is rubbish.. you can no longer jam multiple targets as you struggle to keep one target jammed especially with the crappy dps ecm ships get
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Commander LoC Yeah i totally agree, what has happened to ecm is kinda over-nerfed. No ecm dedicated ships shouldnt be able to use ecm as good as they use to be able too, but ecm dedicated ships should definitly be able to jam pretty much anything.. i understand they can miss cycles its only fair but having to run so many jammers to be able to semi-jam 1 ship is rubbish.. you can no longer jam multiple targets as you struggle to keep one target jammed especially with the crappy dps ecm ships get yes yes, more cheese w/ our whine the point is you should be able to lock ppl down, but you should need to use multiple jammers if you want them locked down full time. you should also have to use some racial, not jsut multi's especially if your target runs eccm. this prevents the one ecm cruiser from locking down 3 perfectly good bs's simultaneously. THAT shouldn't happen, this is why it was nerfed. (that and the whole tech 1 frigate locking down bs's) they cornered ecm to the specialized ships, and they should be able to do their job well if the pilot is smart enough to know its his offense and defense and fit/fly accordingly. fit some more ecm mods, use some lows to boost their effectiveness and dont ever be suprised when your one ECM-multi II fails to keep a thron or whatever jammed forever. no more one cruiser locking down 3-4 targets at a time, thats just silly
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:12:00 - [8] i agree, cruiser shouldnt be able to lock down say 3 targets... either nerf the cruiser or give the scorpion a better boost.. but what makes me laugh is i used 4 multis didnt jam the vaga... i use one caldari racial and it gets 2 cycles straight off. Jamming is still completely stupid. I even have ecm boosters in lows, and i use racials on the right ships they should go on and still not working to well. a ship like a scorpion should be able to jam say 2 battleships for quite sometime.. obviously not permenantly but for a good time it should.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:17:00 - [9] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 02/12/2006 23:19:17 Quote: the point is you should be able to lock ppl down, but you should need to use multiple jammers if you want them locked down full time. you should also have to use some racial, not jsut multi's especially if your target runs eccm. yeah should be able to lock down multi targets with multi jammers but when 6 multis cant even jam 1 Crusier how many do you think a scorp can fit ? Quote: they cornered ecm to the specialized ships yeah which suck at jamming now even with racials its like giving the raven all the luacher points it has and bonuses but giving it bonuses for guns not missiles ,, dont make sense. Quote: fit some more ecm mods, use some lows to boost their effectiveness and dont ever be suprised when your one ECM-multi II fails to keep a thron or whatever jammed forever. no more one cruiser locking down 3-4 targets at a time, thats just silly 4 hypnos in the low slots is what was fitted ! 20% per module .. And when any ships packing ECCM god help any jammer out there because if it cant jam a Target of strenght of 14 with out ECCM then god help it when they have it
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:22:00 - [10] Sounds like a very well thought-out scientific test you ran there.... NOT! /party time, excellent.
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:24:00 - [11] mate if i was to sit here and name every single experiment ive done on every single ship id be here for a very long time... i used one example from what ive tested.. ofc ive tested others.. but this is just one of very stupid ecm nerfs..
Ras Blumin 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:33:00 - [12] Originally by: HIdden Canary yeah should be able to lock down multi targets with multi jammers but when 6 multis cant even jam 1 Crusier how many do you think a scorp can fit ? You could try with 7?
Princess Keela	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:36:00 - [13] kail was supposted to make Ecm more dedicated to the ships like (scorp, rook , falcon and so on) but there that weak even on them with maxed out jamming skills that scorps are Useless Compaired to other Bs in the game now, Sorry but what the changes have done is like taking the domi and not giving it drone bonuses ! the domi is a drone ship so it gets decent DPS with its drones, so why shouldnt ECM ships be able to lock multi targets with a little more ease i mean thay have no DPS, before kail a scorp had a chance 1 vs 1 againt most BS but now they aint got a chance in hell !
mallina Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:41:00 - [14] so you missed ONE jam cycle and think that jamming is now useless you just want to be able to keep 3 people permajammed at the same time :/ ----------- Turbulance
Shi Mun Caldari Aurora Development Corp	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:42:00 - [15] well stop using multispectrals constantly and you just MIGHT have a better success rate. Racials are by far better than multis --------------------------- My EW suggestions:- EW suggestions
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:42:00 - [16] Eve's ecm system is quite weird. I remember miserably failing to jam a tech1 cruiser with 1 eccm in my rook(reconlvl4, signal dispersion lvl4) 5 hypnos multispec before the nerf. Then i logged into test server to change skills and someone was outside the station in a dread and i was in a rook with 5 hypnos lows with ecm boosters and i perma jammed that dread for a while. I am starting to hate this lottery jamming. I also remember jamming a Curse in my frigate fitted with compulsive multispec(sig dispersion lvl4) a while ago. It was a manticore. Really weird!! ______________________________________________________________
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:47:00 - [17] Quote: so you missed ONE jam cycle and think that jamming is now useless 1 jam cycle lol try reading if im useing 6 jammers m8 thats 6 cycles im missing ,, over and over not just 1 i wouldnt complain if it was just 1 .. but if 6 cant even get a cycle on a crusier with maxed out jamming skills whats the chances of anything bigger or multi targets ?
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:58:00 - [18] Learn to play. Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:12:00 - [19] whos amarr ? was that aimed at me ?
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:12:00 - [20] thats not the point... you have dps.. caldari dont.. so stop your bi***ing! caldari supposedly had jammers.. now they dont
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:20:00 - [21] Edited by: HankMurphy on 03/12/2006 00:20:10 Originally by: Commander LoC thats not the point... you have dps.. caldari dont.. so stop your bi***ing! caldari supposedly had jammers.. now they dont "sir this is the fun police. put your keyboard DOWN and step AWAY from the forums!"
chromer one FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:29:00 - [22] on good thing maybe scorpions wont be primarys nor are they EW ships either... thx for the nerf.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:36:00 - [23] Quote: nor are they EW ships either... So right about that !
Kole44	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:22:00 - [24] I gotta agree with the op. My scorp with T2 racials has a strength of 5.7 or so. All the time I spent training ew and caldari cruiser to 5 for a Falcon is now wasted. If I'd known how bad ecm was gonna get nerfed...I would never have trained Caldari cruiser in the first place. Give ecm ships a boost so that they are closer to being as effective as they were before the nerf.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:55:00 - [25] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 03/12/2006 01:59:53 Edited by: HIdden Canary on 03/12/2006 01:59:14 I agree it needs a boost to its ECM so its jammers are as effective. with no tank and good jammers it would be balanced but with both no tank and weak it makes the jamming ships weak as good as dead
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. Well yes. Total jam == broken. Partial jam 4tw. //Maya
Feygor Gaunt Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Feygor Gaunt on 03/12/2006 02:11:55 i like the change it is very good in moment ecm destroy the fun in battles
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:17:00 - [28] as Kole44 said alot of people have spet along time at Training such skills for ships like the falcon and rook where as at this point its a total waste of time i my self fly a rook and even that with Faction jammers and officer jammers it couldnt jam a scorp even once! and that is supposted to be the top JAmming ship ,, my advice to wannable jammer pilots out there is dont bother training for fancy ships like the falcon or rook .. buy a griffin it can't jam just like a falcon or a rook and takes less time ...
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.03 03:54:00 - [29] The Scorp needs 20% per level to ECM strength then all will be right in the world. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:12:00 - [30] At the min the scorp has exactly the same bonus as its elite cruiser counter part i think ccp didnt really think about the bonuses too well for example a falcon takes you 104 days to train to fly (give or take) with no skills and that doesnt count the jamming skills and it takes you 2 days to fly the black bird and they have the same strenght bonus WTFs that about?
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 03/12/2006 04:23:17 Heres an idea. The whole system is broke, who care if it was buffed/nerfed it was broke to begin with. Any system that sayd 'Player skill, player skill, player skill... DICE ROLL" is broke. Who gives a ** if the dice roll is broke. The system was broke to begin with. Fix it. (edit: Yes im drunjk.. but my point still stands. kinda) Originally by:** Victor Ramirez using it to get the layout of a new system and a quick belt-check is about as practical as using Google Earth to see if your car is still in front of your house.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:45:00 - [32] Edited by: slothe on 03/12/2006 04:48:55 use racials basically. no more multi-ecm being the i-win button is good imho. oh and as its kinda random, im fairly sure that another player in a similar situation using 6 ecm could jam every time with luck. when i used a scorp for pvp pre-kali im fairly sure i fitted 4 racials and 2 multis - the racials for the bigger ships with higher ecm strength and the multis for frig and cruiser sized support ships. if you use this setup please send me 5 mill isk thanks. oh and i may disagree with the guy above. ecm has been changed many times. long gone are the days of cycle jamming (im in mixed minds whether this is a bad thing) when there was certianty but arguably scorps were overpowered. ecm has been tinkered with many times in the new system which does show that devs are listening to us. i suspect , and hope, the balance of ecm v eccm is good now. we shall see. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:59:00 - [33] i tried taking 2 caldari racials, 1 minmatar and 1 gallente with 2 multis.. i struggled to jam a raven with no eccm i have 40+m sp's and very specialised in jamming with bs 5 etc so im pretty much maxed out for jamming skills.. i also had the damage output of a fish.. i could never have broken its tank... i then tried this same setup vs a domi... the only jammer that was getting jam cycles were the caldari jammers.. wheres the sense in this ? Even if a scorp does perma jam a battle ship... youll never break its tank with the way things are in kali now.. its drones would kill you before you could break its tank easily, especially with you having no tank either because you need to fit the low slots with boosters to increase the strength of your jammers
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:07:00 - [34] Scorps were overpowered in RMR and before but tanking its ability to tank in lows should of sorted that but instead it cant tank and has P**s weak jammers meaning at somepoint your are going to fail especially how fights are now goign to last longer because of increased HP! Even with max skills and racials. Tonight ive tested it alot with hypnos singal amps in the in lows and racials ..the scorp hasnt a chance against a damn BC .. its weak DPS isnt enough to kill anything .. (as long as the BC tanks long enough which is easy now with increase HP)and the drones alone are enought to kill the scorp and thats a scorp with BS 5 and maxed out jammer Skills against my 700k sp in drones .. and you dont see this being wrong ?
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Commander LoC i tried taking 2 caldari racials, 1 minmatar and 1 gallente with 2 multis.. i struggled to jam a raven with no eccm i have 40+m sp's and very specialised in jamming with bs 5 etc so im pretty much maxed out for jamming skills.. then you surely know that caldari ships are the most difficult to jam with highest strength natural eccm. its probably better using sensor dampners on ravens and scorps instead of using ecm. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:11:00 - [36] Originally by: HIdden Canary Tonight ive tested it alot with hypnos singal amps in the in lows and racials ..the scorp hasnt a chance against a damn BC .. its weak DPS isnt enough to kill anything .. (as long as the BC tanks long enough which is easy now with increase HP)and the drones alone are enought to kill the scorp and thats a scorp with BS 5 and maxed out jammer Skills against my 700k sp in drones .. and you dont see this being wrong ? need more info. what was the strength of your racials when fitted. what was the bc. did the bc have eccm? *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:41:00 - [37] Edited by: Commander LoC on 03/12/2006 05:41:52 i guess your not a jammer, i understand what your saying but with my skills and stuff i shoulda jammed him alot of the battle.. not saying all just saying most of but i was only getting very very few cycles. And damps ? lets just forget bonus's to ships and work against them. The point of the ship is jamming.. not dampening.. jamming on scorps was fine before kali.. why break it.. just take away its tank and make it have signal amps in lows as long as it could do what it did before thats understandable.. but they take away the tank and the jamming for it.. its completely useless. Everything weve been trying is with no eccm's either.. imagine whats gonna happen if people fit eccm aswell.. i doubt youll even get a cycle.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:46:00 - [38] Quote: . its probably better using sensor dampners on ravens and scorps instead of using ecm. Then whats the point of ECM dedicated ships then ? if your just putting damps on? you may as well buy an a arazu or lachesis! Quote: what was the bc. Brutix and ferox (tryed both at sep times) Quote: did the bc have eccm? No and i would have to look up strenghts
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:07:00 - [39] Quote: Then whats the point of ECM dedicated ships then ? if your just putting damps on? you may as well buy an a arazu or lachesis! Look cool atm ingame. For everything else, try a Lachesis. If you manage to get your hands on a Sensor Dampener strength rig = win _______ Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:17:00 - [40] I dunno WTF you guys are b#tching about. My mates and I jam everyone we try to jam, ECCM or not. Jamming hasn't changed one bit since Revelations. It's still 100% effective as far as I've seen. ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:25:00 - [41] Confirmation Bias
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Confirmation Bias Yes, I concur, the OP is indeed suffering from Confirmation Bias. ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.12.03 06:58:00 - [43] my ecm still works.. tho im considering carrying tp/td/damp as well from now on. you never know what might become useful. Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.12.03 07:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. Well yes. Total jam == broken. Partial jam 4tw. the problem is that there needs to be a reason to bring a scorp to the fight. partial jam = death atm. you miss a cycle, and just about anyone can put you into structure in 20 secs. Before, if you missd a cycle, you got a second chance with a 4 slot armor tank. You certainly aren't going to kill somebody with a scorpian. An EW ship with close to max skills needs to be almost positive to perma jam a ship in it's own class. Again, it can't kill something in it's own class before the guys friends can make 30 jumps to save him, so a scorp pilot has to have another friend who can kill the ship it is jamming. look at this scenario, you have 2 enemy BS's camping the GM-EC gate. a raven and a mega. You bring a scorp while your buddy brings a abbadon. your buddy in abbadon jumps in, get's the mega to commit, and webs him. you jump in after, and jam the raven. What you are trying to do is make the mega a 1 vs 1 fight against your friend, with your armor rep drones helping him out plus the pitaful dps of your missels.. the mega is webbed so he can't turn his blasters on you, and BBQ your fragile ship. Say it works out, you keep the raven perma jammed, and you make the formaly 2 vs 2 fight a 1 vs 1 + a frigate or destroyer dps. If you can't rely on keeping the raven perma jammed, then you might as well bring a DPS battleship.
Ishidu Uryuu Caldari N00B SquadroN	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:03:00 - [45] Tux should make ECM like it was in the begining w/o this ****ty roll dice and chance base. All that it should be done that time is add optimal and fall of to ECM.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:06:00 - [46] My battleship is still getting jammed. My m8s falcon is still jamming multiple battleships. And cruiser blobs aren't all fitting ECM anymore. ECM is fine.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.03 08:24:00 - [47] Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Stop bringing it to the table. Anything can jam anything else - it is a matter of chance. As for the nerf - I would rather they had reduced the strength by 1/3, instead of 1/2. Rigging brings the specialized ECM ships back up to snuff, but damnit, rigging isn't gonna be common if it takes as long to get as an officer spawn. ECM is nearly useless on non-ECM ships, which isn't how it should be. 20% per level racial bonuses aren't common in the game for a reason - diversity. It's a slight improvement, moving from moderately overpowered to a bit underpowered, but you can't please everyone.
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 10:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Feygor Gaunt Edited by: Feygor Gaunt on 03/12/2006 02:11:55 i like the change it is very good in moment ecm destroy the fun in battles Only if you consider mindless bashing on ships "battle". I have a feeling that EVE devs only like tanking and banging. This is the game of paladins. If you compare EVE and GW(i know, eve is different), EW ships are like Mesmers, Logistic ships are like monks. Battleship, HACs and other ships are like Warriors/Paladins. Logistic ships are useless. Devs are nerfing EW ships all the time. A simple advice to anyone who is willing to play this game for a while. Train for HAC or battleships(TANK and DMG ships). I can assure you that they wont be nerfed like recons or EW ships. But in the end what do i know? I am just a noob with some time to think weird things like this. ______________________________________________________________
Void wolf	Posted - 2006.12.03 12:16:00 - [49] Edited by: Void wolf on 03/12/2006 12:17:39 Edited by: Void wolf on 03/12/2006 12:17:17 "Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Stop bringing it to the table. Anything can jam anything else - it is a matter of chance." They take a ew ship and take the ew out of it, might as well take tanks out of ships to and turrets, missles and "cloak out of cov ops" Do guns or missles work on chance? No they work on math/angle/speeds/sigs that all determends the damage output. why do ships have senser Strength then? If you have say 18 jaming strength in any racial and you jam a ships that got say 14 senser strength, you better be able to prmajam the thing, whats the point of a turret with 150mm sig and a ship with a 400mm sig hit all the time, should the turret by "chance" miss? no it dosen't. They nerfed jamers so hard that you need like 5-7 jams and best skill just to get it up to cruiser/bc senser strangth and even then if you still have higher jaming strength its Still "Chance" you going to miss. So What the point of senser strengths again? they should of made just one and only one type of jam and so its 50% to jam and thats it. The hell With skills, just one skill to use that 50% jamer so its based on luck and nothing to do with math/sience/skils.
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.12.03 12:53:00 - [50] Originally by: HIdden Canary At the min the scorp has exactly the same bonus as its elite cruiser counter part i think ccp didnt really think about the bonuses too well for example a falcon takes you 104 days to train to fly (give or take) with no skills and that doesnt count the jamming skills and it takes you 2 days to fly the black bird and they have the same strenght bonus WTFs that about? Resists and speed. why fly a Hac over a BB, why fly an inti over a frig, why fly a cruiser over an Af. . .```````the list goes on, and it boils down to speed and resits in the end and e-peen for some).
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:25:00 - [51] Blah blah blah, rabble rabble rabble. Scorps and falcons aren't as good as before granted. Few tweaks would fix that since the ecm multis got nerfed hard, but Rooks are ok, but you need to be VERY good and the new mods need to be out first. Look at this. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:48:00 - [52] I say 'lets apply the ECM dice roll to everything in Eve.' So that ceptors attacking a Cruiser only do damage every 2'nd or 3'rd shot. Nos only hit every 10'th time and drones only launch and attack once every once in a while. Naa.. Seriously. Why not just take the pre kali ECM and nerf it with 50% and then just give the ECM ships a static 100% bonus to ECM. Problem solved and everything is as it should be. And to ppl Whining about A Scorp or Rook being able to jam multiple ships. Well a Curse can TD multiple ships with a 100% chance of success making then useless against everything except static targets. I would like to see TD's affecting missiles too. since the only thing that affects missile users are SD's.
Dar Wento Gallente Fallen Angel's Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 14:27:00 - [53] Edited by: Dar Wento on 03/12/2006 14:27:54 My two ISKs on the jamming-ships... They're supposed to be support-ships to the rest of the gang/fleet and not solo gank-mobiles of doom. Post-Kali you need to fill up your lows with ECM boost-mods and let another ship shield-tank it remotly if/when needed to stay alive. Personally I feel that this is a valid "nerf" to the ECM-capabilities overall. As Tux said, use racial jammers instead of multis and you will do fine. Adapt or die. Regards, /Dar.
R0b1n Ho0d Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.03 16:48:00 - [54] static bonus 'Role Bonus' just like recons get with cyno. Make dedicated ECM ships the only major viable ECM platform.
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:01:00 - [55] Posted - 2006.12.03 14:27:00 - [53] - Quote Edited by: Dar Wento on 03/12/2006 14:27:54 My two ISKs on the jamming-ships... They're supposed to be support-ships to the rest of the gang/fleet and not solo gank-mobiles of doom. Post-Kali you need to fill up your lows with ECM boost-mods and let another ship shield-tank it remotly if/when needed to stay alive. Personally I feel that this is a valid "nerf" to the ECM-capabilities overall. As Tux said, use racial jammers instead of multis and you will do fine. Adapt or die. Regards, /Dar. Im guessing youve jumped the forum and not read what weve said in the past ? weve used racials and there still pretty much useless... your gonna have to fit 8 racials of one race to keep some sort of nice jamming on a ship and your still gonna miss alot of cycles then. ECM is completely broken.. i put a multispec T1 fitted it to my vagabond and it jammed a curse... whats that about ? im still trying stupid weird things but with being in a ECM ship seems to not help at all, dosnt matter what ship your in seems that jammers still work the same on every ship
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:04:00 - [56] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 03/12/2006 17:07:08 Thing is the people that ae going "stop whining" are the ones that only know bout jamming from being jammed but if you actually fly the ships. you would see at this point there is something wrong with the system, ECM ships are supposted to be ECM platforms and are supposted to be support ships but think about it this way, fleet fight first thing usally targeted is a scorp/rook/falcon... so on ... just because of its jamming potental no matter how many jammers you have if you have multiple Bs firing on you are as good as dead, was same pre kail but before if you were called primary you at least had a slight chance of jamming enough to take the initial hits, but now you have to slam most ur jammers on 1 target to semi jam him meaning if your called primary your DEAD simple as ... so whats the point ? they made it a support ship that cant support a fleet correctly
David Koresch Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. QFT. 3 times in a row by a myrmidon --------------------------------- Carebearin' in a hi-sec near you!
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:09:00 - [58] a fleet support ship ? jaming ships cant support themselfs atm nevermind a fleet lol
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:44:00 - [59] You have to set your jamming ships up to jam now, its as simple as that. The Scorp is slightly underpowered I reckon, this could be resolved by increasing the bonus to 20% per level or by providing the Scorpion with an extra lowslot so it can properly take advantage of the new ECM damage mods. The other tier I BS's have 1 more slot than the Scorpion anyway (apart from the Domi which is pretty good already ;E ). Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:52:00 - [60] Quote: extra lowslot so it can properly take advantage of the new ECM damage mods Problem is after 4 modules the stacking pens start kicking in and more mods effects aint noticeable, thanks for trying tho , at least some people care about where eve is going and not just going "whine whine whine " Liek someone said in another post i read the game isnt baout skill or tactics its about who has the biggest guns and the best Tank, brute force over tactics and skill,
stainage Gallente Final-Vendetta	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:04:00 - [61] The way i see to fix this is give the Scorpion and other EW ships bigger bonuses. Say like 50% per lvl or something i dont know how much that would give but it seems the best way. Then EW can only be used on EW ships effectively
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. Well yes. Total jam == broken. Partial jam 4tw. the problem is that there needs to be a reason to bring a scorp to the fight. partial jam = death atm. you miss a cycle, and just about anyone can put you into structure in 20 secs. Before, if you missd a cycle, you got a second chance with a 4 slot armor tank. You certainly aren't going to kill somebody with a scorpian. The Scorp is pre-nerfed because of total jams. In a partial jam system, you could give the EW ships a good deal more base toughness and speed, frex. And it makes almost NO difference in a 1v1 compared to today, per my suggestion pre-Kali. And yes, partial jams would work better in bigger fights. Ohnoes! Yes, I'd like it to work differently to tdisruptors and sdamps. Commander LoC, racials are a good deal of what is WRONG with ECM. They nerf RPers who actually try and RP their race, for starters, and then there's the fact they're about as useful as a ton of manure against the OTHER races, etc. - fittings ENTIRELY determine the outcome of the fight, which is boring and plain wrong. The people suggesting static bonuses need to post stats for the T1 ships to replace the T2 ships they just created, incidentally. //Maya
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:55:00 - [63] I brought my Recon to 5 awhile ago. I should have known better because whenever I bring something up to 5, CCP somehow knows and screws me over. Anyway, with Recon 5, Caldari Cruiser 5 and the skill to increase jamming strength up to 4, I was able to get 2 out of 5 cycles on something like a Harpy with a Falcon. I slapped on 2 of the lo slot modules on and got 3 out of 5 on a Blackbird. This is with using the best named jammers. It still seems off to me. Maybe the ship bonus for Caldari EW ships should be increased by another 2.5-5 % per level.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:20:00 - [64] Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 03/12/2006 19:25:34 I also have recon 5 and use expensive jammers "officer and faction" and it does seem off ! alot ,,, ECM isnt right at all Ecm ships are totally useless like LOC said " if they cant support them selfs how the hell can they support a fleet ?
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:50:00 - [65] A solution to this would be simple: Step one: As a rule, the jam can only succeed if the jamming ship's total jamming strength exceeds the target's sensor strength. If no, the jam fails. Step two: Bring jammers back to pre-Revelation strength. You get a system where 1-2 jammer setups get useless except against the few weakest of frigates. Adding one or two backup arrays decreases the chance of being jammed and also defeats weak ECM setups. If you fill your slots with 4 or 5 backup arrays, your sensor strength will not only decrease your enemy succeeding but also deny most ECM setups from being able to jam you first place. After all, before you must have sacrificed many slots you could have used for tanking or damage dealing. What CCP did with Revelations might have been the most time-efficient short term fix. Still, fixes are no repairs and CCP might want to consider to discuss to send in the mechanics ;) _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:51:00 - [66] Strange, I seem to still be getting jammed. But its not a perma jam so I have a chance to do some damage still. Guess what, no more I-WIN. Fly EW with a gang, and it more than makes up for the loss of one ships damage output. In EvE you take risks, I may or may not break his tank before mine fails; you may or may not jam the target enough to kill him, or keep him there for someone else to kill. Jamming was too easy before, and the amount of skill needed is still less to get perfect jamming than a perfect gunboat. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:24:00 - [67] Quote: Jamming was too easy before, and the amount of skill needed is still less to get perfect jamming than a perfect gunboat. No offence but i have MAXED out jamming skills i have recon 5,signal dispersion 5,EW 5,Frequency modulation 5,Etc etc..So you could say PERFECT jamming skills and i cant keep a cruiser jammed.(by on the rook thats also with officer multi specs and faction) so just think if you cant jam a cruiser perm with maxed out skills With out putting multiple modules on them and they have no ECCM then when it comes to fleets what the hell u gonna do ? apart from die ? multiple targets and if they have eccm then you may as well right mouse and self destruct speed the process up :) The other things is you get people that go use racials ? then what the hell is the point of Multi specs ?
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:01:00 - [68] ALso for thos who are goign nothings wrong with them ... go read the other forums too exactly the same issues ! Link 1 Link 2
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:34:00 - [69] You should never be able to permanently jam am equivalent ship class unless you sacrifice all damage dealing capability. And even then its questionable. It would be an instant win condition. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:50:00 - [70] you have seen a scorp in space right ? it has the DPS of a fish !!!
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:04:00 - [71] rofl, man thats stupid. it pretty much has no dps as it is! LOL There are some funny or stupid people on these forums. but no back to reality, seriously its taking away its tank for for signal amps which is reaonable but you should be able to jam a couple of ships if your a support ship because you dont have enough dps to kill any bs solo. Its always going to be a support ship now but for it to be a support ship it needs to be able to jam targets otherwise if it cant jam and it has no tank then its just dead.. might aswell buy a griffin or blackbird.. exactly the same job.. costs less. Same result.. youll either jam or more then likely not.. miss a cycle and there all dead anyways... not worth skilling for a bs or recon go with a griffin.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 06:11:00 - [72] the nerf was too much ! Ecm ships are a total Joke now !Seriously CCP you need to rethink things just read the forums! if you dont see the problem then we are truly lost ! the ammount of people caldari and non caldari that see the problem ! As Tuxford said the problem was every one and there grand mother carrying ECM before kali not dedicated Ecm ships like the scorp! so why have ECM dedicated ships been nerfed ? You try taking a scorp against any other teir one BS now and i garantee you the scorp loses before kali it had a fighting chance (with time cause of DPS)! The only change that needed to be done was to make Ecm a ECM SHIP only thing just like a covert ops cloak on a covert ops ship! That would stop everyone packing ECM and those who know there facing scorps and suck have the choice to put ECCM on simple as ! Instead you've got a whole range of issues now that mount to the ecm problem, but something needs to be done !
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 06:19:00 - [73] Tuxfords blog > They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down Translation> They are supposted to be very powerful and can lockdown 1 cruiser if your lucky but i wouldnt hold your breath and they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down now with no tank, hehe Fix Ecm Ships !
Silent Star	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:40:00 - [74] Currently a griffin has a good chance of jamming a scorp (due to quicker lock time). A blackbird can out-jam a scorp (lock time and # of slots). Neither of these ships should ever have a chance. No frigate has a chance at killing a BS. No cruiser has a chance at killing a dread. They are just too far off to have that type of advantage, and for good reason. Scorp / RECONS should always win in a jam-off.
Marcuis Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:22:00 - [75] I agree its bs what CCP has done to the EW well jamming, I to have lvl5 recon and lvl5 in all jammin skills and still the bb is **** for jammin and so is the scorp even with the jammin mods in low to boost your strength up they have nerf caldri warefare out of the game , I agree have only caldri ew ships used the jammers and no nerfin on strength just like the sphere laucnher, co-ops cloakin etc you get the point, and Jammin isnt over powered thats crap and bs look at the astra and curse with turret distruptor and Nosin for the curse and pilgrim, the gall sensor dampin that can hurt any caldri ship more then jammin does, and whats go with heavy assault launchers range i can only get is 15km if that, what they need to do is change the jammin back to way it was except only the caldri ships whos jammin abilitys allow to have ( BB, Rook , Falcon, Scorp, griffin)and everybody knows caldri ships are the slowest of them all and either shield tank or ew ive had this fight with corp mates and allaince memebers about how jammin is totaly usesless
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:47:00 - [76] Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 04/12/2006 12:53:43 Well atleast the Scorp will make a decent shieldtanker. And a pretty ugly paperweight. Nerf all EW or no EW. Well some bright young lad might say "You can fit a Tracking computer or a sensor booster". Well can't you fit a ECCM? "But the ECCM doesn't give me any bonus if noone tries to jam me" the same lad will say. Well it gives you the bonus of being much harder to jam but if you want to take the risk just go a head. Isn't Eve about risk as someone said? Edit: This doesn't mean that EW should fit in to all ships. ECM for Caldari , Damp for gall, Disrupting for Amarr. And add something nice for the minmatar. (painting is no real EW)
Spanker Absolut Profit	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:53:00 - [77] Don't know what you're talking about tbh, yesterday my drake was constajammed by a oh-look-I-have-a-midslot-open-lets-put-a-multispec-in-it astarte. Same old same old if you ask me. - Shpank
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:56:00 - [78] Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 04/12/2006 13:05:08 Nm. I always mix those damn ship up.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:27:00 - [79] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 04/12/2006 15:28:02 The change to randomfagness was implemented so everyone could use ECM and not only Caldari. But couldnt they use both systems so that if (jamstrength)>(sensorstrength) = permajam : if (jamstrength)<=(sensorstrength) = probability of jam ? "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:32:00 - [80] In that same blog Tuxford also mentioned that maybe the ECM re-adjustment would encourage people to fit racial jammers. I'm sure if you had Ladar Jammers that Vaga would have been locked down. Conversely, i've jammed battleships in a Scorpion for multiple, consecutive cycles using the incorrect racial jammer for the ship's race. Luck is still a big part of ECM.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:36:00 - [81] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 04/12/2006 15:41:18 I am aslo a dedicated ECM pilot. Or was... Atm i kinda scared to undock in a ship which a) cant tank b) cant deal dmg c) cant tackle d) cant really jam anything of the equivalent ship class The nerf to ECM dedicated ships is too much. If ECM is to remain in its current state dedicated ships need a change. Either buff their ECM bonuses or bite the bullet and change their role. EDIT: oh and i forgot i wanted to comment the subject of raical jammers. I do use them. In fact i mostly use them. AS a dedicated ECM pilot i view multispecs as a backup jamming system. My scorps for exmaple genneraly feutre 4-6 racials and 0-2 multispecs. So please dont tell me to fit racilas and everything will be fine. I do. And its not.
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:28:00 - [82] prior to Kali I was getting a 9.6 on tech 2 racials now Im getting a 4.mad...As a dedicated Caldari ECM pilot I want my money back. yes Im whining maybe even shedding some tears. I always have Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook, Scorp fitted and ready to go... repackaged them last night after doing some testing with some corp mates. I think Racial EWAR should have been specialized not nerfed. The Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion should have bonuses that allow them to be the same as they were PRE-Kali. i.e. same point value (I do disagree with a chance system but thats another thread about 20 pages long). Then do the same for sensor dampners, tracking disruptors, and propulsion jamming. make all the EWARs on par with each other. I personally feel that the other EWAR systems dont require a BS level ship because of how they work but it does put everyone on the same playing field. might also give the other races a reason for having tier 3 BS... Im off to eat cheese now
Ione Hunt Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:45:00 - [83] ECM is the devil!!! ________________________________________________
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:05:00 - [84] Quote: ECM is the devil!!! LOL CCP nerfed the devil too ? damn !
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:24:00 - [85] People who say that ECM dedicated ships could permajam before the nerf are just wrong. It was still possible for the ECM ships to miss cycles and then they went down quickly. Now, you miss more often and go down quicker (due to loss of any tank in order to fit ECM 'Damage' mods). The point of the nerf was to hinder those pilots who put ECM on random ships (the Domi for example) when they had a spare slot and could still get a regular jam. This goes a long way to making this harder to achieve (which I think everyone agrees with ) but is has reduced the effectiveness of the ECM dedicated ships which I don't believe was the point of the nerf. I would advocate changing the ECM ships bonuses to make them have the same ECM strength as they had pre-nerf, maybe a touch less as we now have rigs. This way, you could boost the ECM strength using the low slot mods at the expense of your already meagre tank and make these ships what they are - dedicated ECM ships.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:31:00 - [86] The role of a ECM specialist is dead, because who in there right mind would skill for so long for something that doesnt work ? Its like skilling for tech 2 missles getting the lauchers but not having the skills for the missile! Ecm ships such as the scorp/Rook/Falcon/BlackBird were fine before kali thay held a vital part of fleet combat which inho is a double edged sword when it comes flying ecm ships , every single Ecm pilot knows your usally the first to be called as a primary in a fleet engagement! when it comes to soloing in such ships and im talking about pre kali because now it couldnt solo a Frig. Ships such as the scorp and rook they were good but took a decayed to kill a single target! But look at other tier 1 Bs now and before like the Dominix doesnt have a problem engaging multiple targets on its own and usally coming out the victor ! its a very versitile ship! taking away jamming from it did nothing to it but free mids for more toys ! instead with taking such abilitys from non caldari ships you in turn have killed the ships with deadicated ECM bonuses as well!
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:51:00 - [87] ignoring the ship to 5 issue It would take me 3 months to max out my ECM related jam skills that includes the generic ones like the cap bonus etc etc and its just going from 4 to 5 in all cases. Id hate to even look at Recon and BS to 5 whats that another 70 days?? and why do people keep saying "but you have rigs" have they looked at what it takes to build rigs let alone harvest the materials? forget buying them at least for any reasonable amount of time.
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:23:00 - [88] not asking to be able to kill your ship all ECM pilots know they have pitiful damage. If you actually read the thread youll see that dedicated ECM pilots all know they are fleet/gang support. They arent there to do dmg they arent there to do tanking. Dedicated ECM pilots want dedicated ECM on dedicated ECM ships. Those ships are specifically Griffin, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion. NONE of which have a good dmg output. I think the ECM-Nerfers have run up against situations that the ECM purists dont necesarily subscribe to like ECM doms. as for multispecs throw them away force me to fit racials even limit me to 2 or 3 races per scorp. just allow me to jam. matter of fact I cant reemmber the last time I killed a ship with any of my ECM boats... helped the gang sure done the killing nope.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:25:00 - [89] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 18:32:03 Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 18:30:13 Quote: If you have the skillz Jamming is still very affective in the right ships Can you read it is clear you dont fly ecm ships and i appologize if you do ? Thats the thing i have maxed out my jamming skills level 5 in all and that includes cap skills and secondry skills for such ship like the rook ! i have recon 5 caldari battleship 5 and my scorpion with such skills cant jam a cruiser ! thats a BAttleship againt a crusier ! 5 mill again 60mill (give or take) and then you get to my rook ! recon 5 with officer and dread jammers cant jam a cruiser and keep it jammed ! the rook is the best of all the jamming ships ! and it should be able to jam pritty much anything it comes across just like the pilgrim or the cruse can nos out pritty much any BS it comes across ! Quote: A scorp is cheap and if a scorp can shutdown a tempest it is taking away a lot of uber damage. as for this Quote scorp is tier 1 domi is teir 1 same price on market around about and the scorp aint got a chance againt it ! hell the scorp as it stands aint got a chance againt a damn cruise thats set up right ! Quote: Another point is in fleet battles CCP does not want a scorp to jam a bunch of ships but maybe if you had a 3-4 scorps setup for only 1 race you would get the james you need. THen whats the pooint OF ECM ships ? I sure as hell wont be taking current ecm ships in to fleet engagments due to one fact " how can they support a fleet when at the min they cant support them selfs ? ECM ships played a great role in fleet combat and tactics and taking them away from that just turns them in to slug fest and it then comes to 2 things who has more friends and bigger guns ! simple as ! brute force over tactics ! which SUX !!! and if this is what is to become of eve then i will give great thought to quiting !
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:46:00 - [90] Kali killed ECM....that's the point. Just sign up a pubblic petition by all ECM pilots, everything could be ok if the nerf was just to the no-dedicated ships.
Princess Keela	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:57:00 - [91] I appologixze if this double posts ! But 93 people have replyed with support that ecm needs changing ! if CCP doesnt listen to this then i dont know what will make them listen maybe they only listen to miners,mission runners and TECH 2 bpo holders!!!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:09:00 - [92] Originally by: Zixxa ECM is dead. And I forecasted this after very first patch on Sisi, where Tux "forgot" to add ECM bonus to ECM ships. It is honest to remove all Caldari ECM ships from the game. It's not dead ffs, its just a hell of alot more specialised! Sure it needs tweaking but this is as good and as balanced as its ever been, we just need the Scorpion boost! Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:17:00 - [93] Quote: It's not dead ffs, its just a hell of alot more specialised! seriously answer me one Question how can i get more specialised ? I HAVE MAXED OUT JAMMING SKILLS ! (BS 5, RECON 5, Signal dispersion 5,Fequency Modulation 5, EW,5 Faction and officer jammers ) only thing i dont have are rigs ! and ive tested them on the Test server ! and they dont improve S**T so how the hell can it be specialised if im top of the jamming tree ?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:27:00 - [94] Well if you truly have all that then you should be of a comparable of not better level than you were in RMR. I will concede that its the rigs and the SDA's that will make the ship though. You've just got to give it time and wait for the rigs to become a common commodity. Even without the rigs a Rook with your skills and officer modules is a completely formidable ECM platform. You must be talking almost a 50% chance with all that fitted. Probably a jam strength of around 13-14 with racials? Thats a 50-60% chance to jam a battleship. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:37:00 - [95] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 19:41:13 Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 19:39:30 you would think ! but its no where near where it was in RMR ! Even with RIGs ! ECM is too weak now ! even with recon 5 ! my rook cant even keep a ship with 14 signal strenght jammed ! 14 for god sake ! and its the best jammer in game ! welsh wizard do you use jamming ships your self ? because things on paper look nice but in practice it says other wise and just look at the ammount of other people thats behiind it too ? i mean if it was just me i would go far enough screw EW ill fly my other ships! ! BUT ITS NOT JUST MEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yay
Christos Hendez The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:45:00 - [96] Tux can u please reply to this topic. It does seem ECM ships have been smacked hard. Or do u want to get ride of ecm ships altogether? If so what do u propose they become?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:48:00 - [97] Yes, my alt is of a similar level as yourself but I don't have any fancy modules. What I know is that on my Rook I can fit 2 ECM rigs and 2 SDA II's and achieve a racial ECM strength of a little over 14 points. A Rokh has a sensor strength of 24 - At optimal Rook range thats 14/24 = 0.583 or a 58% chance of a successful jam against that ship. Have I tried it? Yes, I probably achieved around 1 jam from 2.5 cycles on average. This suggests that there is another factor coming into play other than the straight division. To this day I still don't know what it is. (Yes I've tried it at close range and smack bang within the middle of my optimal) Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:52:00 - [98] Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 04/12/2006 20:03:34 Signal Strengh means little theys days as JAmming is chance based ! or a SCorp with 24 or a rook with 32 would perma jam anything lower ! with EASE ! but in practice it doesnt ! And it Certainly would be intresting to hear from tuxford but will never happen !
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:12:00 - [99] Dedicated jamming ships; They put out pitiful DPS. This is now worse if you use ECM mods rather than damage mods. They have next to no tank. This is now worse if you use ECM mods rather than plates. They can no longer jam as effectively. If you use damage mods, max out skills and use rigs, you get roughly back to pre-nerf days but as above, you die quicker and put out less damage. These guys just don't solo and now their role in gangs has been massively reduced in effectiveness. Tux - was your plan to kill off the ECM ships or just to stop non-ECM ships from fitting multis and being too effective with them?
Skutter	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:15:00 - [100] Edited by: Skutter on 04/12/2006 20:20:10 The nerf is harsh on specialist ECM ships with a MINIMUM 30% efficiency reduction. Spending the time on the skill training is now simply not worth the effort. Agree with nerfing non-specialist ships (although why increasing ECCM and module strengths wasn't experimented with first I'm unsure). There has been no introduction of chance based modifications for Dampners, Tracking Disrupts, Webifiers, Drone activiation, shield/armor tanking or any other specialisation you can mention ... ECM has had chance based nerf and now gets latest nerf as well, wrong imo.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:17:00 - [101] Originally by: Commander Wingpop Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 04/12/2006 20:03:34 Signal Strengh means little theys days as JAmming is chance based ! or a SCorp with 24 or a rook with 32 would perma jam anything lower ! with EASE ! but in practice it doesnt ! And it Certainly would be intresting to hear from tuxford but will never happen ! You're looking at the wrong number dude, the ECM ships sensor strength has nothing to do with its ability to jam. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:28:00 - [102] I know what i was trying to say was at some point it was like that then they changed it to chance system % as i believe!
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:28:00 - [103] Originally by: Mar Idoun In that same blog Tuxford also mentioned that maybe the ECM re-adjustment would encourage people to fit racial jammers. I'm sure if you had Ladar Jammers that Vaga would have been locked down. Conversely, i've jammed battleships in a Scorpion for multiple, consecutive cycles using the incorrect racial jammer for the ship's race. Luck is still a big part of ECM. Just a point: Even with racials you can't get to were a NON ECM ship was pre-nerf using multis.
Sun Tzuk	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:38:00 - [104] Quote: I am aslo a dedicated ECM pilot. Or was... Atm i kinda scared to undock in a ship which a) cant tank b) cant deal dmg c) cant tackle d) cant really jam anything of the equivalent ship class The nerf to ECM dedicated ships is too much. If ECM is to remain in its current state dedicated ships need a change. Either buff their ECM bonuses or bite the bullet and change their role. EDIT: oh and i forgot i wanted to comment the subject of raical jammers. I do use them. In fact i mostly use them. AS a dedicated ECM pilot i view multispecs as a backup jamming system. My scorps for exmaple genneraly feutre 4-6 racials and 0-2 multispecs. So please dont tell me to fit racilas and everything will be fine. I do. And its not. /agreed Ok this is how it worked out... I'll use the rook as an example... ok EW got gimp 50% across the board. A rook gets 20% increased ECM per level. 1 x .5 x 2 x 1.25 = 1.25 So a player flying a rook with 5 level of recon ship + 5 ranks of signal dispersion would have the same effectiveness jamming other ships as a player with 5 ranks of signal dispersion in a regular ship with no EW bonuses did before the last patch. And thats the best EW gets now! Not very impressive imho...
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:53:00 - [105] Yep Ecm is now soooooo impressive sense the Sarcasm !
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:17:00 - [106] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/12/2006 22:17:48 Originally by: Sun Tzuk Ok this is how it worked out... I'll use the rook as an example... ok EW got gimp 50% across the board. A rook gets 20% increased ECM per level. 1 x .5 x 2 x 1.25 = 1.25 So a player flying a rook with 5 level of recon ship + 5 ranks of signal dispersion would have the same effectiveness jamming other ships as a player with 5 ranks of signal dispersion in a regular ship with no EW bonuses did before the last patch. And thats the best EW gets now! Not very impressive imho... Yes, lets all conventiantly ignore that there is now a 20% lowslot booster for ECM. Fit 2 of those and you get a 40% boost. Add 1 ECM rig and you are with a rook at a +49% boost to ECM - 1% less than pre-kali. What? Need the lows for an 1600mm plate and an EAN2? I thought ECM ships cannot tank? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it too?
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:26:00 - [107] Edited by: Commander LoC on 04/12/2006 22:27:03 how about stfu and read past posts, we do stick the signal amps in lows and rigs arnt available yet and wont be for a short while.. like we've also said in the past things look pretty in paper but when you actually put it in combat its useless. its like its not working on the %.. its like its completely random and going on dice rolls.. ive never been good at dice rolling only dice game i was good at was frustration!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:44:00 - [108] The random feature of ECM sucks, yes, but thats no change at all to RMR. If you want nonrandom effects switch to tracking disruptors or damperners - but also get into situations where your EW system plain out does not work. Fact is: if you use good ECM lowslot mods (hypnos/t2) in the lows of the ECM ships you get only minimal effeciency reductions (> 90% of RMR effeciency).
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:45:00 - [109] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 22:50:49 Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 22:48:39 Ok look at it this way to evem make Ecm even a little effective you need level 5 BS , level 5 signal disruption, the best named mods, and so on.. but every other BS is good at what it does with the lower levels,I fly both caldari and gal Bs so i know what both are like to fly i have gal only to BS 3 and 700k in drones and my domi would eat the scorp alive with out hesitating.. because the scorp sucks at whats its supposted to be good at even with max skills!! i mean pre kali ive killed domis with my scorp solo and i aagree with making it a support ship by taking the tank away ! but at least make it be able to jam good or what is the point because "failure = Fast death" SO what your saying is train all the jamming and BS or recon to 5 to make it effective ? then the same should be done with all the rest ravens and domis should throw our P**s poor DPS till they max out missiles/drones and get level 5s in all !
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:58:00 - [110] O-kay. Just in case I misunderstand you: you are complaining because your scropion cannot anymore solo kill a dominix, which - is considered by many people as the best 1v1 BS in the game - has the weaponsystem which is the least effected by ECM
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:01:00 - [111] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 23:01:13 Originally by: Aramendel O-kay. Just in case I misunderstand you: you are complaining because your scropion cannot anymore solo kill a dominix, which - is considered by many people as the best 1v1 BS in the game - has the weaponsystem which is the least effected by ECM NO im saying with maxed out skills and best mods and faction jammers it cant jam a crusier ! Like loc said try reading the whole of the forum not just the last few posts before replying !
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:07:00 - [112] Originally by: HIdden Canary NO im saying with maxed out skills and best mods and faction jammers it cant jam a crusier ! Like loc said try reading the whole of the forum not just the last few posts before replying ! OH RLY? Originally by: HIdden Canary ...I fly both caldari and gal Bs so i know what both are like to fly i have gal only to BS 3 and 700k in drones and my domi would eat the scorp alive with out hesitating.. because the scorp sucks at whats its supposted to be good at even with max skills!! i mean pre kali ive killed domis with my scorp solo... And the cruiser occurance does not mean anything - it's ECM, sometimes you have bad luck. They only thing which matters is the jamming strength - which is virtually unchanged if you bother to use the lowslot mods.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:13:00 - [113] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 23:13:53 FFS try reading ! I do use low slots !FULL HYPNOS SIGNAL distortion amps !!! and 6 multi specs couldnt jam the cruiser ! before you go use racials i did also! Iv also used Rigs on Test server! and its the same there with rigs ! Aramendel do you actually fly jamming ships out of intrest (if so what level skills ya got in BS/recon, signal distortion??
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:22:00 - [114] Originally by: HIdden Canary FFS try reading ! I do use low slots !FULL HYPNOS SIGNAL distortion amps !!! and 6 multi specs couldnt jam the cruiser ! before you go use racials i did also! Try "reading" yourself. To repeat myself: ECM IS RANDOM Meaning you will have sometimes something which is called "bad luck".
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:25:00 - [115] do you fly scorps ? or rooks ?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:34:00 - [116] Originally by: HIdden Canary do you fly scorps ? or rooks ? Can you read? Can you do math?
Davlin Lotze Raging Destruction	Posted - 2006.12.05 00:36:00 - [117] Edited by: Davlin Lotze on 05/12/2006 00:38:45 Originally by: Lowa I kinda agree. It should have been nerfed but right now it became too much. The nerf could perhaps only apply to non-ew ships and the dedicated ships gets the full monty as before? Would make more sense imho. Perhaps even making it so that non-ew ships cant even mount EW modules? Cheers, Lowa Just get a dampening ship and your gtg. IWIN-mobile to the max. Last night I had a domi damped below 7km when two special elite cruiser\dampening ships and a meager dps support gang killed me without me getting a single lock after the first lock(which itself was broken shortly with damping). I think CCP has a burn eden member working on EW :p
Latex Mistress Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.05 00:38:00 - [118] I understand that a single multi-spec on a non-ECM ship was too powerful. Fine - leave them at RMR strength, increase ECM module CPU requirements by 100% and give EWAR ships (BB, Rook, Falcon, Scorp, Vigil, Stiletto, etc...) a 100% reduction bonus for said modules. If you want to fit multispecs on a Domi, you still can, but it will cost you... As it stands now, I'm with Trillian: no sense in undocking a Falcon atm... LM Latex Mistresss: bringing truth to the truculent one post at a time
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 00:52:00 - [119] This thread is going downhill real fast. Which makes me very sad. ECM dedicated ships need help. Dont turn this into a flamefest, please.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:00:00 - [120] I Totally agree
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:03:00 - [121] Sorry it just makes me angry when people that dont fly the ships start the lecture ! thats all and i agree ECM dedicated ships need help !
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:06:00 - [122] Originally by: mallina so you missed ONE jam cycle and think that jamming is now useless you just want to be able to keep 3 people permajammed at the same time :/ If using correct ECM towards the specific strength, and also utilizing those ECMmodules on a ship designed for EW, i see no reason why not. A Raven can nuke any ship with no problem using t2torps and BCUs, so why should not a specced pilots be able to chainjam multiple ships using EW at good ranges. Please come up with a better arguement next time. Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
Veryez	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:15:00 - [123] If a Scorp w/max skills and 4 boosters in lows can't jam a vaga something is wrong. The Vaga's probability of not being jammed each cycle is less than 6/10000. This sounds more like a bug than a nerf.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 01:22:00 - [124] yeah a vaga ! but only since kalis launch ! and i started the post to make sure it wasnt just me .. and 5 pages of other people with the same thing says its not just me
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:05:00 - [125] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 05/12/2006 02:04:50 It was possibly overnerfed but it needed something radical done as a multi was almost standard fitting on nearly every pvp setup. From a pvp point of view, being permajammed = dead every time, regardless of weak damage output, if whatever you are attacking can never hit you, you will win ... So, the chance system is the way to go but CCP's version may need tweaking ... but if a ship can permajam everything else every time it means that it is overpowered. If that were happening then burn eden, ginger magician and lofty would all be flying scorpions ... the fact that they arent is a good sign that it is either a)balanced or b)a little underpowered But i fully understand the whine, you never get dev luvvin in this game unless you whine for at least 15 or 20 pages ... in about 10 threads alas, poor risk and reward, I knew you well
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:29:00 - [126] i Mean god damn it takes ccp 5 days to fix probes lol so god help ECM !
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 02:41:00 - [127] Originally by: Commander Wingpop i Mean god damn it takes ccp 5 days to fix probes lol so god help ECM ! I believe we will see a change to ECM ships after Deimos is fixed _______ Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
GT Maximus Ascent of Ages R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:16:00 - [128] Edited by: GT Maximus on 05/12/2006 03:18:53 Edited by: GT Maximus on 05/12/2006 03:16:03 My Rook and Scorp are worthless. I've spent 3 days trying every setup I could think of and every one posted on the forums. I'll try again when I can get my hands on the rigs, but until then there is no sense even flying these ships. I hope CCP is listening, and I feel bad for anyone who has spent the time to max out their skills in ECM. Back to training torps.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:27:00 - [129] Multispectrals need to be removed, and total jam needs to be removed and replaced with partial jamming. Being jammed shouldnt make you dead in the water. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Statics A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.12.05 03:32:00 - [130] Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sh*t, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. Thanks CCP! ----------
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.05 04:40:00 - [131] I totally agree a ship setup shouldn't be based on if you can get the rigs or not! thats like saying my raven has massive DPS but i cant get launchers ! I just hope someone is listening to us all !
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.12.05 05:05:00 - [132] Originally by: Statics Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sht, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. Thanks CCP! Nobody is using ECM in the tournament because it was BANNED from the tournament. Why was it banned? It is overpowered, and they realize it makes for boring fights. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?*
Garonis	Posted - 2006.12.05 06:07:00 - [133] Ecm is Broke, simple as that. I undocked with a corp mate, me in my rook, moderate skills (4) withe t2 jammers. i got a good jam maybe 1-7 cycles. this was against a ferrox. the ratio went up slightly when he switched to a caracal. 2-7 or so. whats the point in skilling up, and then going through the expense of buying and fitting out the ship thats supposed to be the hands down best jammer in the game? better to fit a tank and use it as a cheap cerberus... oh wait, thats the even cheaper drake : / Thanks CCP!
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:17:00 - [134] Hmm well. Interesting thread. I fly Rooks, Scorpions and Falcons myself and I absolutely agree that something has to be done. The ECM specialised ships are worthless as they are now. They are paperthin with the damageoutput of wet cardboard -WHICH is fine if they could defend themselves and their gang via ECM. I for one am not using either Rooks, Falcons or Scorpions again before this becomes better balanced. I mean - the problem with ECM in RMR was that everyone was fitting 1 or 2 multispecs for PvP - right?. I never ever saw anybody whine about being jammed by a Rook or a Falcon in combat - only Caracals, Domis and what not. I have nothing against the lowslot SDA's for boosting the ECM - but they should be for ECM dedicated ships only. So you wont find them on a domi for instance. Increase the CPU need to 1000 and lower it for ECM boats. About rigs - well ffs forget about those! They are going to be insanely expensive, and I for one wont be fitting them on a PvP ship that's going to be called primary in every single engagement. Besides - everyone can fit them, so it is hardly a boost to ECM boats. So - what is the use for Caldari Recons now? Dunno...The Rook tanks up nicely, but it is still gonna be called in every engagement because people think it's carrying ECM... I dont care about damage - I want ECM on these boats only. Hell - remove all the fricking gun and turret hardpoints and give some decent ECM output again...would be better that today.
Pham Sirge VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:34:00 - [135] Hi all, My scorp is useless. I am not going to fly a useless ship into combat. Grats, CCP Fleet combat is now BS snipers and tacklers. , <VTIL> Pham Sirge
UBERPWN Amarr LDK	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:36:00 - [136] 2 days before my alt warped into the belt and ended up 5km from the Scorp. Got insta scrammed, webed and jammed. Was tanking that ship for 2 mins with a passive tank in my Hurri and actually manged to fire a volley. Eventually got killed by some cruise missiles and a Hammerhead I - now that is what I call frustrating. So no I don't see how jamming is crap and on the other hand why to use 6 multispec, maby better use 4 racial (for 4 different races) and 2 multispec? I might be wrong though.
Grim Starwind Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.12.05 07:40:00 - [137] Edited by: Grim Starwind on 05/12/2006 07:41:16 EDIT: Oh look, someone else did post this idea just a few posts up. hehehe. Okay, I read the first few posts and couldn't be bothered reading 5 pages. So incase this idea has been posted my bad.. but... RIGHT from the start when they talked about nerfing ECM I had a better idea. (I fly the ecm ships, scorp, rook etc..) anyway, My idea was that instead of nerfing the actual mods so they are useless.. make ALL ecm modes require like LOADS of CPU to fit.. you know, like a covert ops cloak or strip miner. And give the dedicated ecm ships an extra bonus that takes -99.9% cpu need to fit the ecm modules. That way they'd still be good and everyone else would still get nerf. CASE SOLVED?!!
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 09:18:00 - [138] If people think the ECM nerf was so severe then STOP using the ships and modules, its that simple. If the slight nerf is such a big problem for you, you must be doing something wrong. I for one will keep using my ECM ships - they work, its that simple. even with my limited skills im very very effective with ECM's, so how the more skilled (SP wise) players can whine about the effectiveness of these modules i cant quite fathom. Yes your nber "nobody can touch me" ship aint all that untouchable anymore - Stop using and relying on multi's. A high SP char in a rook, with rigs and low boosters will still get a 60+% chance to jam some BS's - and 40-50% on a scorp - dont tell me that 1 module which has that high a chance to incapacitate a battleship, is a weak module. Im simply not buying it.
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:27:00 - [139] I think quite a few people have stopped using their ECM ships. I didn't think the nerf was intended to do that. It seems a shame that 'misuse' of ECM by non-dedicated ships has brought a nerf which has also negatively affected the dedicated ships. I think it was right to stop every PvP setup with a spare mid-slot fitting a multi-spec and for it to be so effective. However, given this has hit specialist ships which are called primary but have no tank (even less now if you try to boost your ECM strength), have highslots but put out very low DPS (i.e. can't solo) and now can't effectively do their role in gang (just before they get popped as primary don't forget) then I think the nerf needs some 'Tweaking'. I like the idea of dooing a 'CovOps Cloak II' on ECM mods and making their CPU massive but giving the ECM ships a bonus (this might also be good for the other forms of EWAR). However, given the change currently implemented, a small boost to the ships ECM bonus would, I think, help the current problems a lot.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:33:00 - [140] I'm inclined to point out the falcon can still jam from like 150km away and merely cloak if it fails to jam. It was abit over nerfed in my opinion but I'm going to adapt, so should you.
Morty DuAquin Caldari Quantar Swords	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:58:00 - [141] why are there allways trolls trying to ridicule a serious topic ^^ Tux should post here asap. and he should tell us if it was intended to overnerf ecm. -- Tuxford: They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down.
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:58:00 - [142] Originally by: Kehmor I'm inclined to point out the falcon can still jam from like 150km away and merely cloak if it fails to jam. It was abit over nerfed in my opinion but I'm going to adapt, so should you. Kehmor, you're right. The Falcon has 2 defenses, range and cloaking. However, if you can't jam then you just have an expensive CovOps frig. The other ships now have just one defence, range which if used properly means you now have a ship with absoultely no DPS which can jam less effectively than before and can still be primaried by long range ships. A slight tweak on the ECM strength on these 5 ships would sort most things out.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:13:00 - [143] Originally by: HIdden Canary Guess thats a no!ROFL seriously when you fly the ship and experience it and not just what its suposted to be on paper then comment It's not a "No", it's a "It doesn't matter". Since you haven't answered my question either I guess it means you haven't finished grade school yet, right? Again, fact is that with the right setup the ECM ships retain their jamming strength. You can whine about it as much as you want to, thats a fact. Not that I have much hope in you realizing this, consideringyou were whining multiple times in this thread how a scorp cannot kill a domi, which is about as stupid as a curse pilot whining he cannot kill a raven. Well...DUH! You are suffering from a severe case of comfirmation bias... Quote: dont you think if it was just me i would of shut up along time ago but alot of people are sayign the same so dont you think theres something there ? Lets see... Jamming is much more skillbased now and also dependant on sacrificing any armortank (which shouldn't matter since multiple people claimed that ECM ships cannot tank anyways) for ecm mods. Obviously this will result in many people trying their previous I-WIN setups, failing and yelling "Ohnoes! ECM is broken!".
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:25:00 - [144] Originally by: HIdden Canary Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ??? you shouldnt be useing multispectrals mr multi's are next to useless you MUST use racial to be effective....and trust me a CURSE can jam a couple cruiser no prob with the right racials... just fit a veriaty of racials and you should be ok better if ya knwo what type of ship your up against "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates un barred and ungarded" http://users.net4u.hr/~maza/gr/sigs/TigerClaw
Exogene	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:39:00 - [145] Edited by: Exogene on 05/12/2006 11:41:39 Edited by: Exogene on 05/12/2006 11:39:53 Originally by: Statics Have we seen any ECM being used in the tournament? Sure saw a lot of damps. ECM has been nuked to worthlessness and to top it off, ECCM & backups are being boosted. Swell. Boost ECCM/Backups, remove multispecs, give us the old racial strengths back. The low slot mod is a piece of sh*t, boost it or ditch it. Increase req's so only certain ships can use ECM, whatever. There are dozens of quality suggestions to this problem that have been consistently ignored. Basing any kind of argument on the use of rigs is utterly preposterus if you know anything about the construction of these things. edit p.s. he didn't use any low slot modules to strengthen his jamming Thanks CCP! First of all jamming is not allowed in the Tournament...Second jamming still works well on non-ECM ships , my m8s tried ECM multispec jamming, a dominix trying to jam a Raven and it was successful most of the time. Jamming was never 100% and never will be so quit your whining already... Edit: p.s. He didn't use any low slots to strengthen is jamming ability
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:41:00 - [146] Someone said that a scorp shouldn't be able to lock down multiple ships in a fleet. Well what happens if a Lachesis put 1 damp on a sniper Tempest or a Curse put 1 T-disrupt on a Apoc? Isn't those ships effectivly out of the game for a good while until they have crossed the distance they need to beable to lock or fire on the other ships in the fleet? And doesn't a Lachesis use 5 damps and a Curse 4 T-disrupts? And there is no randomness in those, they always hit. But the most hillarious comment was that a Blackbird would solo kill a battleship because it can jam. That battleship would probably unjammed get killed by a frigate too.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:56:00 - [147] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Originally by: HIdden Canary Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ??? you shouldnt be useing multispectrals mr multi's are next to useless you MUST use racial to be effective....and trust me a CURSE can jam a couple cruiser no prob with the right racials... just fit a veriaty of racials and you should be ok better if ya knwo what type of ship your up against A typical fleet setup Scorp will have 2 sensor boosters and 3 types of racial jammer in pairs. At the moment I will not use the Scorp anymore which is a shame really since I maxed for jamming and it is now weaker than it was unless I sacrifice plates for the ECM strenfth mod. The scorp and BB allready have crap damage output and a pretty weak tank if they are used for what they were designed. On a side note PPL like you using ECM on ships like the Curse allthough entitled to are the reason the change was brought in because it was far too powerfull on anything. Every mothers son was using it! In short ECM still works on chance based math and therefore some ppl will be jammed maybe even all the time in one encounter. But the fact still remains the strength of it was nerfed and even dedicated EW ships like Scorpions were hit as well and whatever you ppl feel about it for me it sucks! I'm considering sticking 6 T2 sensor dampeners on the Scorp now. Who knows if everyone did that they'd be nerfed as well and they'd be made crappy in a patch even on ships like the Arazu!
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:33:00 - [148] First off, the Rook, if we get a full set of t2 low slot signal dis amps and 2 of the ecm str rigs with lvl 5 recon can have a HIGHER sensor str than before in RMR. We just need the mods. None of the other ships can though. But at the same time... Small tweaks to the str bonuses would fix everything. The scorp and falcon should have a much bigger bonus IMO and all the recon ships should have their ecm bonus applied from the caldari cruiser skill, not the recon ship skill itself. Possibly UP the bonus on the signal distort skill that it gives a bigger bonus to the str of ecms, 5% to say 10%. Blackbird and griffin right now are fine. The shouldn't get the bonus they're getting and hope to jam out BS size ships constantly. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
Quantasia	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:43:00 - [149] Some things in EVE can never be fully appreciated nor understood unless experienced firsthand. Some things in ECM can never be fully understood by someone who neither builds ECM equipment nor runs an operational ECM ship.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:09:00 - [150] Edited by: Aramendel on 05/12/2006 15:13:01 Originally by: Jeanpierre Duvall Well what happens if a Lachesis put 1 damp on a sniper Tempest or a Curse put 1 T-disrupt on a Apoc? Isn't those ships effectivly out of the game for a good while until they have crossed the distance they need to beable to lock or fire on the other ships in the fleet? Nope. Because the SD & TD EW ships have no range bonus and also have a lower base range than ECM to begin with. They can be used to optimal effect up to 50k, with reduced effect within their falloff between 50-100k. Their effeciency at sniping distances of 150-200k is about on par with that of a blastermega. So as anti-longrange EW you can pretty much scratch TDs & SDs. So, what about shortrange? They work effeciently there, but still have compared to ECM a lot of loopholes. A lachesis can disable a BS just nicly there, but 1 damperner will still not bring it below 20k targeting distance. Works for the lachesis, but not if you have gangmates which have to go closer - if you want a real disabling effect (targeting distance of 5k or less) and in order to compensate for the common sensor booster you'll need 3 damperners on a BS target. And solo there is also the problem of targets outrunning you - a lachesis does not have the "breath" to keep a BS or cruiser with a MWD at a distance long enough to kill it. And nevermind frigates, a ÷achesis is an easy target for a small frigate gang. An ECM ship can permajam 1 frogate per jammer and escape there. TDs are even more extreme there. One TD is usually not enough to stop BS sized weapons to hit a cruisersized target unless you have a speedfit. Their effect vs medium sized ACs and blasters is also basically nil - an AC rupture will eat an arbi with 3 TDs alive. And, again, vs frigates you might as well not bother to activate them unless it's a sniper setup with rails or arties. Also, nevermind that unlike dampeners and ECM TDs have no effect at all vs: missiles, nos, warp disruptors, webs, ecm, damperners. And it is also a lot more vulnerable vs drones since they can still be send against it even if they were in the dronebay or at another target when their owner got agressed. ECM has simply no real loopholes. It has the highest base range and neither gets less effecient at closer ranges. It does not care what the target has in it's high slots. It also does not loose effeciency vs smaller targets like dampeners or TDs do, in fact it gets more effecient vs those.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:26:00 - [151] TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! which sucks so either osmething wrogn or the system/nerf is too much
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:34:00 - [152] Something needs doing baout the current state because 85% maybe more of caldari ships are useless now can you say heros to zeros over night !
JFxSummoner	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:38:00 - [153] EW nerf good, but EW ships (rook, scorp, bb, falcon) need a far better better bonus to ecm modules as of now they are almost useless less you are a rook pilot then still you are dissadvantaged.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:48:00 - [154] Originally by: Commander Wingpop as Kole44 said alot of people have spet along time at Training such skills for ships like the falcon and rook where as at this point its a total waste of time i my self fly a rook and even that with Faction jammers and officer jammers it couldnt jam a scorp even once! It's so terrible that you can afford faction and officer jammers. What a lousy game this is! -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:51:00 - [155] Originally by: HIdden Canary TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! He'd just warp away, dude, and you still wouldn't get the kill. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:15:00 - [156] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: HIdden Canary TO be honest the rook out of all ecm ships isnt as bad but that still couldnt jam a vaga ! He'd just warp away, dude, and you still wouldn't get the kill. Totally True but not the point !
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:18:00 - [157] Originally by: Cythrawl First off, the Rook, if we get a full set of t2 low slot signal dis amps and 2 of the ecm str rigs with lvl 5 recon can have a HIGHER sensor str than before in RMR. We just need the mods. None of the other ships can though. Are you sure about that? While I was running numbers while writing my blog entry about ECM (that I just wrote today, in fact), I found that a Blackbird with Caldari Cruiser 5 and a pair of T2 ECM mods could come out almost 6% higher than its old, pre-patch strength. Of course, it would also be short thousands of armor HP since it can't fit any plates in its low slots either. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:18:00 - [158] yep im sure tested it for a long time !
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:29:00 - [159] Then tell me what part of 0.5 (half of the original ECM strength) * 1.4086 (what EveGeek says two stacking penalized T2 amps give) * 1.5 (level five Caldari Cruiser) does not equal 1.05645. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:23:00 - [160] Originally by: GC13 Then tell me what part of 0.5 (half of the original ECM strength) * 1.4086 (what EveGeek says two stacking penalized T2 amps give) * 1.5 (level five Caldari Cruiser) does not equal 1.05645. Erm....if one mod gives 20%, I find it hard to believe that two stacked mods gives 40.86% ? Maybe I'm wrong
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:35:00 - [161] Well, the second mod is penalized to somewhere around 85%. (1 + (0.2 * 0.85)) * 1.2 = 1.404, so it seems to flow about right to me. Unless both EveGeek and I drastically misunderstand the stacking penalty. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
BaneMaker JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:51:00 - [162] Originally by: GC13 Well, the second mod is penalized to somewhere around 85%. (1 + (0.2 * 0.85)) * 1.2 = 1.404, so it seems to flow about right to me. Unless both EveGeek and I drastically misunderstand the stacking penalty. Well it's probably me not getting why two 20% mods stacked can give a 40.4% bonus....Shouldn't it be 1+(0.20)+(0.85*0.20) assuming 20% per mod and 85% effectiveness of the second mod. Thus yielding a total modifier of 1.37 (37%) ?
Naskaya Caldari Elegance Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:13:00 - [163] The BB is fine for the moment, i've managed to jam regulary with one multi and 4 differents racial. No more permajamming, but still efficient with at least one ecm booster in low. The scorp should be brought to 20% strengh to fulfill its role as an EW BS, and the rook should reach about 25%, to mark the difference between T1 and T2. Seems fair to me.
Dire Lonestar Caldari Global Isk Network Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:40:00 - [164] Originally by: Aramendel Yes, lets all conventiantly ignore that there is now a 20% lowslot booster for ECM. Fit 2 of those and you get a 40% boost. Add 1 ECM rig and you are with a rook at a +49% boost to ECM - 1% less than pre-kali. What? Need the lows for an 1600mm plate and an EAN2? I thought ECM ships cannot tank? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it too? You should talk of things you know, because you are pretty ignorant about ECM modules. First of all the low slot ones available to the market are the tech 1 non-named, 16% bonus with stack penalties. So you can dream 40% bonus. Second, the ecm rig too is unavailable and it will be for a long long time. In the meantime should we simply ignore problems to not feed the trolls? Third, a little tanking with a scorpion is required because it's ALWAYS named as primary target and a pilot knows that warping in and out is the only way to avoid being killed in a few seconds. That tank helps him just to have 30 seconds more to do that, not to substain serious damage. Live another day... climb a little higher... find another reason to stay....
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:08:00 - [165] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 06/12/2006 10:10:56 It's pointless to "argue" with Aramendel, so please stop feeding this "ECM is teh ebil and I don't care what you are saying and which numbers you bring"-troll. I like to discuss ECM even with critical minds but I prefer the ones which know what they are talking about and don't twist around others words so it fits for what they try to suggest. -- Buff ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:41:00 - [166] Any word from Tuxford on this?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:54:00 - [167] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 11:00:17 Originally by: BaneMaker Well it's probably me not getting why two 20% mods stacked can give a 40.4% bonus....Shouldn't it be 1+(0.20)+(0.850.20) assuming 20% per mod and 85% effectiveness of the second mod. Thus yielding a total modifier of 1.37 (37%) ? Thats not how stacking of modules (and skills) in eve works - they always* multiply each other. GC13 is correct here. If you have 2 modules which gives you +50% you get 1.5 * 1.5 -> 2.25 of the original value. If you have 2 modules which give you -50% (for example shield/armor harderners) you get 0.5 * 0.5 -> 0.25 of the original value (if there would be no stacking penalities on both cases). If modules would stack like you think 2 55% harderners would give over 100% resistance (after the stacking penality). Originally by: Dire Lonestar You should talk of things you know, because you are pretty ignorant about ECM modules. First of all the low slot ones available to the market are the tech 1 non-named, 16% bonus with stack penalties. So you can dream 40% bonus. Perhaps you should take your own advice. On the market where my shopping alt is right (Heimatar/Rens) now there are 2 +20% hypnos mods available. Quite expensive of cource since they only just got added to the drops and demand is currently a lot higher than supply. But guess what: that are only shortterm problems. Do you see people complaining that HAM are underpowered since there are no t2 modules and onyl few good named for them? No - because this would be utterly moronic. They got only just released. Of cource there will be availability problems at the start - that should be glaringly obvious. But those problems are only shortterm and will solve themselves. They do not require a dev to fix them. Quote: Second, the ecm rig too is unavailable and it will be for a long long time. As said before, even without the rigs you still get over 90% of your previous effeciency. With the rigs you can get more than your old effeciency. They are an added bonus. Quote: In the meantime should we simply ignore problems to not feed the trolls? Whining for boosts because of availability problems which will be over in a month is reasonable? Quote: Third, a little tanking with a scorpion is required because it's ALWAYS named as primary target and a pilot knows that warping in and out is the only way to avoid being killed in a few seconds. That tank helps him just to have 30 seconds more to do that, not to substain serious damage. And why is it called primary? Because it is by leaps and bounds the most dangerous ship in the nenmy fleet. If ECM would be "underpowered" or "ineffective" this would not happen. And nothing stops a scorp to fit 1 or 2 1600mm plates. And have with 2/3 ECM mods 84%/94% of it's old effeciency. And have just the same tank as what other fleet BSs can fit after their guns, tracking enchancers and damagemods. Originally by: Tanya Kovacs It's pointless to "argue" with Aramendel, so please stop feeding this "ECM is teh ebil and I don't care what you are saying and which numbers you bring"-troll. You can say pretty much everything about me, but not that I ignore numbers. Actually, all you seem to do is to ignore mine.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:05:00 - [168] ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great!
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:27:00 - [169] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Did you even read the OP? or anyone else's comments? I'm thinking they've broken ecm atm cos ppl have been trying to jam me and not managed it once. it's fantastic DOWN WITH ECM Yarrrrrrr! DE
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:45:00 - [170] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Pigs will fly when a Scorpion will solo win against 3 other BS. Anyways still comments from NO-ECM pilots = useless
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:57:00 - [171] Originally by: Alchimista Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Pigs will fly when a Scorpion will solo win against 3 other BS. Anyways still comments from NO-ECM pilots = useless isn't that exactly what he just said? scorp can't solo 3 bs because it's a support ship. u just argued with him but made the same point lol. and also not the point whether it can solo or not. the point is ppl are saying it's ecm effectiveness is not what it should be, ie the system is bugged. DE
NIkis	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:26:00 - [172] Edited by: NIkis on 06/12/2006 12:27:34 since the modules been so severely penalized, i would have expected an increase in bonus on dedicated EW ships yea sure .. when pigs fly happy i didnt train ECM more than just the basics will have to sell that scorp tho... gathering dust in hangar for 3 months now oh and for the above posters, scorp solo locking down 2-3 ships is called stalemate not winning.. it just depends whose friends will arrive faster
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:38:00 - [173] Originally by: NIkis since the modules been so severely penalized, i would have expected an increase in bonus on dedicated EW ships i thought they did get a bonus boost didn't they? DE
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Aquae-Sulis	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:26:00 - [174] Originally by: Kagura Nikon ECM is now quite well balanced. It is weak in non ecm sships and as strong in ECM ships as it was on non ecm ships before patch. More than that it would continue broken. A scorpion should not be able to fight aloen against 3 other BS and win because it can keep then jammed forever. EWar is an auxiliar support role.. not a main battle role. SDo no SOLO EWAR SHIPS. And that is great! Bit of a common misconception this one. A Scorpion against 3 Battle Ships wouldn't win even if if permajammed all 3 of them. It's DPS is just too pathetic (a common occurence with all of the ECM dedicated ships). At best it would end up being a stalemate. At worst, the enemy would warp off. Please, stop thinking theses ships were ever effective solo ships. They are not. They are fleet ships with one ability, jamming people. Let them do it.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:28:00 - [175] I find it funny reading the last few pages you can tell who actual flys and who doesnt fly ecm ships ! ECm ships are useless simple as my BAttleship cant jam a Cruiser ! either soemthings wrong or the nerf went too far, sorry but ECM is our main bonus its like making ravnes missiles Chanced based it just wont happen ! so why nerf ECM ships them selfs it was non ecm that needed nerfing.
Kalek Astroth Amarr The Electrocuted	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:01:00 - [176] i think ecm now is fine (speaking as an ecm pilgrim pilot) before was a powerfull device , now it s ok , someone is used to have the i win button , that s no more , i can understand the reasons of the dedicated ecm ships whine s , may be ccp will boost your ship bonus to balance this in next patch but i hope ecm will never come back to the previous (un balanced) strenght
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Kalek Astroth i think ecm now is fine (speaking as an ecm pilgrim pilot) before was a powerfull device , now it s ok , someone is used to have the i win button , that s no more , i can understand the reasons of the dedicated ecm ships whine s , may be ccp will boost your ship bonus to balance this in next patch but i hope ecm will never come back to the previous (un balanced) strenght Sorry, but again someone didnt get the point. You are not an ECM pilot just cause you fit an ECM on your ship. We are talking about dedicated ships (CALDARI) that cant reach the same strenght as RMR, making those "dedicated" ships a piece of crap now.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:18:00 - [178] 90% of original = piece of crap?
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:31:00 - [179] Originally by: Aramendel 90% of original = piece of crap? When talking about a ship whose only form of attack is also it's only real form of defense, which has the shield and armor strength of a paper bag, and whose ECM didn't always work to begin with, then yeah - 90% of original is pretty much a piece of crap.. And that's with giving up all your low slots!.. The Griffin, Blackbird, Rook/Falcon, and Scorp (maybe) all should have gotten a +100% bonus to ECM strength to keep them at RMR levels..
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:55:00 - [180] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 19:57:03 Well, then wait a month till CCP has the rig situation balanced and throw 2 t1 ECM rigs on it. E vola, same strength as pre-kali. Good time to try out these "uber" damperner & tracking disruptor EW to get some perspective how good ecm was compared to other EW systems (and still is). Btw, it's not only ECM which got an effeciency reduction, t2 ammo also got their dps reduced by about 10%.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:23:00 - [181] Originally by: Aramendel Well, then wait a month till CCP has the rig situation balanced and throw 2 t1 ECM rigs on it. E vola, same strength as pre-kali. Good time to try out these "uber" damperner & tracking disruptor EW to get some perspective how good ecm was compared to other EW systems (and still is). Meh.. ECM Rigs are not an adequate compensation.. Two ECM Rigs lower the shields on ships that are already paper-thin.. "Congrats! You're even more vulnerable than before! You've lost all your lows and your preferred racial tanking type sucks donkey balls! But hey, you're right back where you started from. That's good ain't it?".. And frankly that "right back where you started from" wasn't all that great to begin with.. ECM ships shoulda been spared the nerfbat.. And yeah, I switched over to Celestis and damps even before Kali.. Much better IMO..
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:41:00 - [182] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff And yeah, I switched over to Celestis and damps even before Kali.. Much better IMO.. I traded my ECM ships for railboats :) a) expect a river of anti dampener whinage soon (coused by everybody fitting these instead of multispecs on their NON-ewar ships) followed by a nerf to those b) there seems to be a lot of love for caldari snipers Again the ECM dedicated ship nerf was too much. But now i at least have an excuse to tell my gang: "no i wont be flying an ecm ship. i will be flying a ship which kills stuff instead."
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:40:00 - [183] Quote: ECM is now quite well balanced thats the Funnyest thing ive heard !!! Tonight while at a friends a blob squad tryed to gank him ! in his Raven the Squad consisted of a " Brutix,Thorax,Thorax,Ferox,Vexor the brutix had 1 multi spec and the vexor did too ! LET ME point out non of theys ships are get ECM bonuses ships!!! and they cycle jammed my friends raven 5 times !!!! where 1 scorp with 6 multis couldnt jam him once !!! and we kepted the 6 multis while testing going for over 10mins and only got 2 jams ! where as a non jamming ship within a 4 min engagement kept the raven jammed perm with 2 multis!!! on a non ecm ship!!! WHAT THE F**K is that about ? SERIOUSLY ECM NEEDS TO BE FIXED and made just for ECM dedicated ships !!! that will fix the ecm on every ship problem that was happening before !!! PS: They still died ,
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:45:00 - [184] Originally by: Commander Wingpop thats the Funnyest thing ive heard !!! Tonight while at a friends a blob squad tryed to gank him ! in his Raven the Squad consisted of a " Brutix,Thorax,Thorax,Ferox,Vexor the brutix had 1 multi spec and the vexor did too ! LET ME point out non of theys ships are get ECM bonuses ships!!! and they cycle jammed my friends raven 5 times !!!! where 1 scorp with 6 multis couldnt jam him once !!! and we kepted the 6 multis while testing going for over 10mins and only got 2 jams ! where as a non jamming ship within a 4 min engagement kept the raven jammed perm with 2 multis!!! on a non ecm ship!!! WHAT THE F**K is that about ? SERIOUSLY ECM NEEDS TO BE FIXED and made just for ECM dedicated ships !!! that will fix the ecm on every ship problem that was happening before !!! PS: They still died , Weren't you complaining about not being able to jam a single ship with a falcon/rook and faction jammers before? Now your saying 2 multispec jammers on a ship without ECM bonuses jammed a raven 5 cycles in a row? Huh... Sounds like ECM is still pretty damn powerful.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:52:00 - [185] Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 06/12/2006 22:55:16 Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 06/12/2006 22:52:18 NO what im saying is ECM at this point is Messed up big time !!!!!! what im sayign is dedicated ECM ships are crap !!! there bonus means nothin !!! and the nerf of non ECM ships didnt do the job ! it only made the people that specialize and ships designed to jam TOtally useless !!! what i was trying to say was what tuxford said about why the nerf happen ! to take ECM off everyone !! but tonights little party just shows it aint ! and if you flew a ECM dedicated ship like most who have replyed you would see how they suck now right now !!! its like a domi gettign no bonus to drones !
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:25:00 - [186] Originally by: Commander Wingpop NO what im saying is ECM at this point is Messed up big time !!!!!! what im sayign is dedicated ECM ships are crap !!! there bonus means nothin !!! and the nerf of non ECM ships didnt do the job ! it only made the people that specialize and ships designed to jam TOtally useless !!! what i was trying to say was what tuxford said about why the nerf happen ! to take ECM off everyone !! but tonights little party just shows it aint ! and if you flew a ECM dedicated ship like most who have replyed you would see how they suck now right now !!! its like a domi gettign no bonus to drones ! Honestly if you think its somehow bugged then bug report it. Though I'm guessing its working as intended. As far as we know nothing in the ECM formula was changed other than the base strength and bonuses which shouldn't affect the way jams are decided. If a couple multispecs are still nearly perma-jamming a Raven, then the ECM nerf needs to be taken a step farther since it obviously isn't achieving the desired affect making ECM a nearly useless mod on non-ECM ships.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:40:00 - [187] The Nerf to is not working as it should be ! its weaken ships liek the scorp and rook and so on that are suffering from the nerf why have a bonus to the thing when a t1 cruiser can keep a raven jammed perm ? Ecm ships are usless as it stands ! they dont do what there bonus intends them too.Support ship that cant support them selfs ! The only way to fix ECm is to make it only ECM special ships just liek the covert ops cloak is to the covert ops ! or have a high risk putting them on a non ecm ship ! simple as ! i mean whats the point in buying a scorp with no DPS .. no TANK ,,, when you can just buy a domi and still use jammers from the sounds of it ?you have DPS and a insane tank and still jam ?
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:56:00 - [188] Yeah i agree, ECM shouldnt be working on rubbish ships, especially t1 multispecs.. its still all based on a roll of a dice.. the statistics on paper are complete bull$h1t. Only jamming ships should be able to use jammers efficently without it being a dice roll.. dont mind a rubbish ship using jammers but it seems rubbish ships seems to have the same chance as a ecm specialised ship does of jamming things.. completely random.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:59:00 - [189] Originally by: HIdden Canary i mean whats the point in buying a scorp with no DPS .. no TANK ,,, when you can just buy a domi and still use jammers from the sounds of it ?you have DPS and a insane tank and still jam ? Unless there is some kind of bug in the jamming code the Scorp will have a much better chance of jamming a ship due to the higher ECM strength and higher number of jammers it can fit. If the Domi is still too good of a jamming ship then ECM needs to be nerfed further.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:13:00 - [190] Ecm does need nerfing but not on ECM ships ! ECm ships need boosting or ECm needs to be made just for ECm ships simple as !
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:20:00 - [191] Personally I'd say that ECM as it is now needs to be removed completely. Sensor damps need to be split into two different modules: one for only reducing targeting range and another for only reducing targeting speed. To counter these ECCM should give a bonus to only targeting range and sensor boosters should only give a bonus to targeting speed. ECM as it stands is overpowered regardless of its chance of hitting. Being taken out of a fight for 20 seconds is simply too powerful of an effect for 1 single module to be capable of. Change the effect, not the chance.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.07 05:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Personally I'd say that ECM as it is now needs to be removed completely. Sensor damps need to be split into two different modules: one for only reducing targeting range and another for only reducing targeting speed. To counter these ECCM should give a bonus to only targeting range and sensor boosters should only give a bonus to targeting speed. ECM as it stands is overpowered regardless of its chance of hitting. Being taken out of a fight for 20 seconds is simply too powerful of an effect for 1 single module to be capable of. Change the effect, not the chance. No offense and in the nicest possible way but you need tking out of the game in my opinion ! one thing i have to say is i agree the scorp needs a increase but as for the rook it seems ok as it is ! isnt overpowered or under to be honest its just the BS that needs a increase because its way below all the other BS in game ! and sucks !!!
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.07 07:44:00 - [193] Edited by: Alchimista on 07/12/2006 07:46:41 Edited by: Alchimista on 07/12/2006 07:45:24 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Personally I'd say that ECM as it is now needs to be removed completely. Sensor damps need to be split into two different modules: one for only reducing targeting range and another for only reducing targeting speed. To counter these ECCM should give a bonus to only targeting range and sensor boosters should only give a bonus to targeting speed. ECM as it stands is overpowered regardless of its chance of hitting. Being taken out of a fight for 20 seconds is simply too powerful of an effect for 1 single module to be capable of. Change the effect, not the chance. ECM doesnt work all the time (now it's a miracle when it does).....Dampners always do and you may obtain the same result as if you were permajammed, but you can fit a dampner in any kind of ship that can also use drones, tank, have an high DPS. Again we are talking about general ECM, but still missing the point. SHIPS! ECM ships can JUST jamm (when it works)....when it doesnt they are dead, and now they are 90% getting blew up. Simple
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.07 08:39:00 - [194] Two more pages to go until we summon Tuxford. Keep at it everyone
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:15:00 - [195] narr hes prob busy working on new content instead of fixing the current issues lol ! new vids and so on !
Durik Vespid	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:52:00 - [196] Anyone want to buy a Scorpion??? Thanks CCP
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:01:00 - [197] Hmmm.... The volume of sales of Scorpions, Rooks and Falcons seem to have slowed... Prices will probably follow... A few weeks ago I would have been happy to see a drop in price... Now, I'm looking at the Falcon and Rook sitting still in my hangar, generating nothing but lag... and think perhaps I'd better sell now before the price collapses!!!
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.08 08:59:00 - [198] Will be interesting to see what does happen with prices. If they drop low enough then it will probably make more sense to go out in Rooks as they become that much more expendable. Probably goes for the whole Griffin, BB, Falcon/Rook, Scorp line. It's a shame that the nerf really did make these 'One-trick pony' ships less effective . I'm interested to see if the nerf had it's intended effect of removing ECM from ships with a spare mid slot. Anyone?
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.08 10:49:00 - [199] Edited by: Merchantigus on 08/12/2006 10:53:36 Edited by: Merchantigus on 08/12/2006 10:51:51 :( was looking forward to running an ew ship. guess i wont be doing it now :/ maybe they will notice it and fix it. if you guys manage to yell loud enough maybe a real problem will catch their eye for once :) i might suggest popping something up in general as even people with completly retarded *****fest threads tend to get noticed and get their way there. this is an actual problem should get some attention considering some of the "ideas" i've seen get love recently. This would be like if when they changed drones around they forgot to add in the skills to take them back up to strength again :/ I realy like the idea of the stealth bonus thing applying to ew. always thought it should of been like that anyway. would also love to see things go back to the way they where pre rmr. in games with dice rolls running the system it's fine but in eve not a single other thing has a random chance. keep it up guys. maybe by the time i get my skills up high enough on my new char he'll actually be able to do something :D "When still up after 30 hours you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm."
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:57:00 - [200] Originally by: Merchantigus keep it up guys. maybe by the time i get my skills up high enough on my new char he'll actually be able to do something :D I would seriously suggest switching to rails or missiles as far as your training goes. It seems the majority of EVE hates powerfull EWAR of any form and prefer focusing on various way to deal and tank dmg. YAY! Sadly enough.. CCP seems to have given in to thier desiers.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:57:00 - [201] FOr the min i wouldnt bother till CCP listen !
Zebler Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.12.08 20:39:00 - [202] EW does appear to be overly nerfed atm for the dedicated EW ships. Imo, dedicated ships should be able to get back to their pre Kail strengths. They were not overpowered before Kali, the issue was that everyone was fitting jammers. Kali has fixed this, but the ship bonuses for the dedicated EW boats are not high enough. I've parked up my EW ships. I did some testing on hostiles, and its just not worth it. You get FAR better results from a couple of damps, then you do from 6 T2 Multis.
Sol Mortis Caldari Terminal Velocity Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:22:00 - [203] I fly a rook, with skills being recon: 4, signal dispersion: 4, all other ECM skills are 4. I certainly haven't maxed out my ECM skills, but they are quite high. I've only had my rook for a little under three months, and I have a couple scorps and countless blackbirds scattered all over. All of these ships are now worthless to me. I am sick of reading posts from characters who have never flown a Blackbird, Scorpion, Rook, or Falcon fitted for Ewar. These people go out in their Domis and luck-jam every so often with a multi thinking "oh, so it must be this easy in an Ewar ship" ignoring the fact that an ewar ship lacks a decent tank or any means of inflicting damage. Flying electronic warfare is one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in the game, as it is the only chance-governed role in the game. Flying in a rook is high stakes; with the cost of a fitted ship often exceeding 200mil, the durability of an egg, and the only defense (and offense) working ~40% of the time at best. Jamming was already like playing Russian Roulette only with the gun pointed at somebody else, but at least it was a .38 caliber revolver. Now it is like Russian Roulette with a cap gun. Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:33:00 - [204] Originally by: Sol Mortis I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines. Not true.. 'Roids are more effective and tougher..
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:07:00 - [205] Originally by: Sol Mortis I fly a rook, with skills being recon: 4, signal dispersion: 4, all other ECM skills are 4. I certainly haven't maxed out my ECM skills, but they are quite high. I've only had my rook for a little under three months, and I have a couple scorps and countless blackbirds scattered all over. All of these ships are now worthless to me. I am sick of reading posts from characters who have never flown a Blackbird, Scorpion, Rook, or Falcon fitted for Ewar. These people go out in their Domis and luck-jam every so often with a multi thinking "oh, so it must be this easy in an Ewar ship" ignoring the fact that an ewar ship lacks a decent tank or any means of inflicting damage. Flying electronic warfare is one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in the game, as it is the only chance-governed role in the game. Flying in a rook is high stakes; with the cost of a fitted ship often exceeding 200mil, the durability of an egg, and the only defense (and offense) working ~40% of the time at best. Jamming was already like playing Russian Roulette only with the gun pointed at somebody else, but at least it was a .38 caliber revolver. Now it is like Russian Roulette with a cap gun. Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines. I couldn't of said it better my self. HATS OF TOO U DUDE !!!!
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:13:00 - [206] Sol Mortis, i totally agree. But guess what.. were still gonna get some idiot saying omg fill your lows with signal amps and buy some rigs.. then youll get some other noob bulls*itting saying i was in my rook jammed 6 targets with it.. there isnt a problem when hes probabaly specialised in amarrian stuff.. but yeah i totally agree with what ya said :)
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:17:00 - [207] Originally by: Sol Mortis Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. Maybe you should try out the other ewar ships. No, ECM is not the same thing as ewar. Try an arbi and see that an ac rupture as no problems at all to kill you even with multiple TDs on it. Fly a celestis and meet a frigate gang which does not care if you dampen them. Fly a bellicose and ask yourself whatever twisted logic caused CCP to classify target painters as ewar. Try to see the whole situation instead instead of wailing in your small room why ECM was brought back to the mortal plane.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:00:00 - [208] Speaking of Trolls !!
Justin Marr Evisceration.	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:17:00 - [209] Grr, dedicated ECM ships are useless. To ask us to sacrifice some of our survivablitiy in a 200 mill ship in order to gain a 16% strength to ecm...is outrageous. How 'bout we ask you to give up a high slot to increase your dampner strength? Get a clue. Ignorance is Curable, Stupidity is Forever.
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:11:00 - [210] Originally by: Sol Mortis I fly a rook, with skills being recon: 4, signal dispersion: 4, all other ECM skills are 4. I certainly haven't maxed out my ECM skills, but they are quite high. I've only had my rook for a little under three months, and I have a couple scorps and countless blackbirds scattered all over. All of these ships are now worthless to me. I am sick of reading posts from characters who have never flown a Blackbird, Scorpion, Rook, or Falcon fitted for Ewar. These people go out in their Domis and luck-jam every so often with a multi thinking "oh, so it must be this easy in an Ewar ship" ignoring the fact that an ewar ship lacks a decent tank or any means of inflicting damage. Flying electronic warfare is one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in the game, as it is the only chance-governed role in the game. Flying in a rook is high stakes; with the cost of a fitted ship often exceeding 200mil, the durability of an egg, and the only defense (and offense) working ~40% of the time at best. Jamming was already like playing Russian Roulette only with the gun pointed at somebody else, but at least it was a .38 caliber revolver. Now it is like Russian Roulette with a cap gun. Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines. Sunto eccellente
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:11:00 - [211] Originally by: Sol Mortis I fly a rook, with skills being recon: 4, signal dispersion: 4, all other ECM skills are 4. I certainly haven't maxed out my ECM skills, but they are quite high. I've only had my rook for a little under three months, and I have a couple scorps and countless blackbirds scattered all over. All of these ships are now worthless to me. I am sick of reading posts from characters who have never flown a Blackbird, Scorpion, Rook, or Falcon fitted for Ewar. These people go out in their Domis and luck-jam every so often with a multi thinking "oh, so it must be this easy in an Ewar ship" ignoring the fact that an ewar ship lacks a decent tank or any means of inflicting damage. Flying electronic warfare is one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in the game, as it is the only chance-governed role in the game. Flying in a rook is high stakes; with the cost of a fitted ship often exceeding 200mil, the durability of an egg, and the only defense (and offense) working ~40% of the time at best. Jamming was already like playing Russian Roulette only with the gun pointed at somebody else, but at least it was a .38 caliber revolver. Now it is like Russian Roulette with a cap gun. Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. I spent half the frelling summer training up for the !@#$%^& Rook and now it is a roid with engines. Sunto eccellente
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:23:00 - [212] now it's like russian rouleEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:23:00 - [213] now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE
TDX	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:22:00 - [214] Originally by: DarkElf now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE Why should the people who spent all there time on training these particular skills have to change there ways? Due to it all being screwed up? Your saying that cause you have a totally different way of skills and so on, i bet if they nerfed your setup, you'd be the first to complain. And if you dont like it "sell the ships and train something else up" but that wont happen now will it? So you can stay nice and warm and know your ok. So shut up please and move on to next troff
Lo Rin	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:36:00 - [215] Not sure if this has been posted, cause I'm not reading through 8 pages of this. But it looks like ecm is just support now like the rest of ew. It sucks that ecm ships have gone from strong to just support but that's how it is. Target disrupters mess with turrets but not missles. sensor dampners mess with missles but not up close turrets. And ECM now does an overall reduction in damage instead of reliable lockdowns. ECM seems to be meant for longer battles or fights with multiple enemies. Use 5 ecm modules on 5 different targets over the course of a few minutes and you'll reduce their dps output and ability to ew your side. Also, I don't think any of the ew ships of any race do their best when all they use is one type of ew. And correct me if I'm wrong but caldari ew ships still have the most mid-slots for ew. Since reliably locking down ships is no longer possible, ecm ship users should concentrate on just reducing the overall effectiveness of enemies, I mean you don't have to use all your lows and mids to do that, just as many as you choose to. I could be wrong though.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:47:00 - [216] Edited by: DarkElf on 09/12/2006 13:48:29 Originally by: TDX Originally by: DarkElf now it's like russian roulette with a cap gun? what u mean if it goes bad u just get a little mark instead of dying? think u got the analogy mixed up there. stop ur bithcing ecm *****s. rook can still perma jam a bs. i have flown ecm ships for a very long time and have fought them in none ecm ships for a long time. and tbh all the ppl saying all my expensive ecm ships and skillpoints are useless are annoying. big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. it's not like ppl actually have like 10mil sp in ecm related skills, there aren't that many of them. I trained many sp in amarr bs for solo combat long long ago. it became crappy so i trained somehting else. join the big boys now and use a tank and actually get shot in battles. DE Why should the people who spent all there time on training these particular skills have to change there ways? Due to it all being screwed up? Your saying that cause you have a totally different way of skills and so on, i bet if they nerfed your setup, you'd be the first to complain. And if you dont like it "sell the ships and train something else up" but that wont happen now will it? So you can stay nice and warm and know your ok. So shut up please and move on to next troff wow. i love getting smack talk on forums. you are a big man. did u even read what i said? guess not. let me repeat i used to use amarr bs all the time until they got major nerfage so u know what i did? i changed. re trained gallente which are good atm. some day they'll get nerfed so i'll train whatevers good at the time. mmorgg change all the time and u have to adapt. also try not being quite as abusive next time u want to talk. DE EDIT - and if ur gonna talk tough at least post with ur main
Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.09 17:25:00 - [217] Darkelf i think youve gone abit mental here, yes that morris guy did over exagerate abit.. but so have you.. Not everyone wants to be " i have the biggest guns " people like to play eve differently thats why we have miners.. we have pvp'ers.. i mean come on.. we have what some people call role players ? if people can play eve differently why cant people go to combat differently.. the way its going people have to have bigger guns and thats it.. dosnt matter about anything lse just have bigger guns that make sure can hit and youve won.. not everyone wants to play like that Darkelf i have to disagree on your previous posts. You know full well ecm is broke and does need a fix. Obviously it shouldnt be amasing but it shouldnt be as crap as its currently gone. Your only use to flying a big fat ship with big fat heavy guns or drones.. and blowing the hell out of someone.. not all of us ( i do ) want to do that. Some people prefer a defensive role instead of offensive.. guns being offensive jammers being defensive. Think you need to review what youve said and leave ecm alone seems you dont use an ecm ship these days :)
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.09 17:43:00 - [218] I mean No offense darkelf but you were asking for the smack ! you did come on to a ECM jamming post and kinda have ago. Ive known you along time and i know your hate ECM but how many times have you asked for ECM support.. How many times have i helped you out of a situation, ECM plays a part in combat even if you Hate it! and i do agree when the game changes you adapt, there is something way wrong with ECM at the min. Ive flown Ecm Ships alot as you know .. and when it comes to a vexor that jams a Domi with 2 cycles (one after the other) and a scorp that cant jam a vaga something is wrong !!! its a joke but since the launch of kali ive been jammed more times by NON jamming ships then ever before !!! the Nerf only F*ED up DEDICATED ecm ships. which are useless now. For example Dark many a time youve Gone i have 2 ravans and a domi blah blah .. need your scorp .. but now it wont be coming out of the hanger till something changes ! Quote:** i have flown ecm ships for a very long time Not since Kali tho m8 way before if i remember right !
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.12.09 20:34:00 - [219] I spent a lot of ISK on Hypnos Multi's for more BB and my scorp and now it's just sitting in my hanger. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:29:00 - [220] Just like everyones Ecm ships dude :P gathering rust !
space bear Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:27:00 - [221] Originally by: Commander Wingpop (...) Ive flown Ecm Ships alot as you know .. and when it comes to a vexor that jams a Domi with 2 cycles (one after the other) and a scorp that cant jam a vaga something is wrong !!! its a joke but since the launch of kali ive been jammed more times by NON jamming ships then ever before !!! the Nerf only F***ED up DEDICATED ecm ships. which are useless now. (...) Sounds more like a bug rather than a nerf to me... So, why claim for a boost when what is obviously needed is a fix on ECM ships ? Maybe this would clear a lot of misunderstanding here ;)
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:20:00 - [222] yes its true ecm ships are naff train something else xD knowledge is power.... guard it well
Pham Sirge VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.10 12:00:00 - [223] Hi all, I fly ECM in fleet(scorp) and its now a joke. I always get called primary, the funny thing is with the current state of ECM Im not even jamming enough ships to have an impact. 99% of the time I dont even get 1 complete cycle off before Im forced to warp out. In small gang it doesnt get much better my jammers fail so often that Im forced to make a run for it, before their tacklers catch me. With no tank and no resistances Im a sitting duck, if my jammers fail one cycle. ECM need drastic change. Im not asking for it to be I-win but in its current state it is worse than tracking(screws any gunnery ship, could use a boost to missile ships) or sensor damps(screws all snipers). I have to give up all my mids and my lows and my rig slots(not that I can even afford them) and I cant even kill anything. , <VTIL> Pham Sirge
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.10 18:28:00 - [224] Originally by: DarkElf rook can still perma jam a bs. Indeed. The keyword here being "can". So CAN a griffin. Or even a dominix :) . In a chance based system anything can happen. This does not mean it happens often enough for someone to depend on it. Originally by: DarkElf big deal, so sell the ships and train something else up. Yeh. I did that :) . Doing good so far. Still i miss my EWAR role tough. Just nostaliga i guess.
Spacehulk Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.10 23:46:00 - [225] Sol Mortis nabbed it head on. For those who have no idea on fleet combat, go try it out first. A jammer is primary most of the time and now without being able to tank or jam for one cycle before needing to warp off you are useless. Fights that I have joined, once 3 other BS target your scorp you warp out and have half armour (from an armour tanked ship) left. Both sides use jammers so what applies to me also applies to the jammer in the other group. Once you have max Cruiser, Recon, Battleship and Signal Dispersion skills (All maxed means all lvl 5 .. duh) and you jam for squat then its a problem. ECM is broken worse than before Kali. They used to say ECM is over powered when you had to stack modules on a single ship to jam it. Guess that was way better than it is now. One Scorp could perma Jam 2 ships ... rarely 3 ships ... but would never be worse than that for a fleet battle. With the chance base a Scorp could jam 7-8 ships. Bring back the old system and enhance ECM strength on ECM ships. Strengthen Resistance of an ECM ship so if you need to dedicate jammers on it then you disable it and wont be able to disable another ship. Bring back stacking ECM, increase ECM bonus on EWar ships and increase Gravimetric strength of Ewar ships. 1 Scorp should be able to jam 6 frigates with Racials, 3 Cruisers and 2 BS ... Enough to cause havoc in small groups and not at all in large fleet war. Freedom Technologies
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.11 00:55:00 - [226] I agree ECm is either nerfed too far or Broke !
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:06:00 - [227] Yes, this is not a scientific test. Probably because I'm not a scientist... But I was getting so grumpy looking at my $60mil of Falcon sitting in my hangar doing nothing I decided to try some min-max setups... So I packed it full of racial ecms, signal dispersion amps in the lows... signal boosters in the mids... one or two other goodies.... ripped out the heavy missile launchers in the highs to give me the necessary cpu/grid... (left the probe launcher in)... So that means no dps, and nothing more than its naked tank... With extensive and high ecm skills (tho not maxed)I was feeling hopeful the setup may be enough... undocked and attempted to lock a corpie in a frigate fitted with one named eccm. one jam in eight cycles average success rate... Falcon back in hangar, this time repackaged. Was going to test a similar minmax on my rook... but why bother? So... i've been avoiding playing the McDonalds version of Eve for years (big guns v big tanks)... now I don't have a choice, it seems.
Seriya Caldari Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:39:00 - [228] I agree that the ECM specialist ships are hit overly-hard by the nerf. They lose their lowslots and are still much less effective. Also because the jammer base strength is so much weaker, the % bonus that ships and skills grant does way less than it used to. I don't want ECM strength where it used to be pre-nerf but I do think there should be a slight boost. Something like: - Scorpion gets 20% strength per level (not 10%) - Blackbird gets 15% strengh per level (not 10%) - Signal Dispersion skill gives 7.5% per level (not 5%) - Distortion Amps grant 20%-30% instead of 16%-20%
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:04:00 - [229] So basicly.. your saying if i train up for.. lets say an I-Win domi.. then they nerf my I-Win domi that makes it unfair because i put all that time in for my I-Win ship? Thats like saying.. oh its not fair that he gets an air rifle and i get a mini gun.. now im only aloud to use a pistol.. IT STILL WINS.. ECM was.. and potentialy is way overpowerd i mean c'mon one ship able to completly remove a Dreadnoughts ability to lock and shoot? or 5 ships at once?.. you talk as if its the end of EVE as we know it.. yet you don't seem to relise that not being able to tank is one thing but when you use ECM and that effectivly tanks your entire fleet then it's another matter... why the hell should one ship be able to perma disable another? Originally by: Aramendel A harderner also only works against ships firing on you. ECM is effeciently a harderner for your whole gang/fleet.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.11 02:32:00 - [230] I can't figure how someone think ECM is balanced when a ship has to sacrifice all of his lows to be somewhat effective. What about requiring from Curse pilots to use all their mids to get the same damage level? This is nonsense. A Scorp, Rook or Falcon should get the same strength as before Kali without using their lows, and the lowslot enhancers should be removed from the game. But chanced based ECM will always be bad. Before the ECM overhaul last year many voiced their concerns about the incredibly stupid idea of chanced based stuff in a combat game. They went on with their change... and the pre-Kali mess happened. So now they pretty much removed ECM from the game and everybody is happy, besides Caldari ECM pilots. CCP needs to revamp the whole ECM concept, it will never work in it's current implementation. If 'partial jamming' was possible, they'd probably have gone that way already, so I guess it's not. So guys, forget it, it will never change and it's better not to fly ECM ships until everybody has forgotten about Scorps or Rooks and we are not called primary anymore. When pigs fly. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.11 03:50:00 - [231] I've never trained for battleships... I wanted to play something other than the standard punch and tank game.. So, given my ignorance, how much did the I-win Domi's sacrifice to get the "i-win" gun button? At the moment, flying a dedicated ECM boat is flying with an "i-lose" button as they have: 1) no tank, 2) no dps and 3) no strength in their "dedicated" field... All for a nice cheap price in ship, fittings and skill points. I wonder if those who flew the nerfed "i-win" domi's had to retrain the bulk of their skills after the nerf? Meh
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.11 03:55:00 - [232] Agree. I know of a few rook pilots who mothballed or sold their recons because even with max skills they couldnt jam things. - - - These elite slaves are exceptionally well suited for physical labor.
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.11 10:02:00 - [233] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 11/12/2006 10:12:13 Page 8, no offical response. So maybe everything works as expected and/or we are a bunch of whiners. Anyway: Would be nice to know if this is the (new) deal and everything works as expected or if there is a bug with dedicated ECM-ships. Tried to jam a Thorax a week ago with 2 SDA in lows. No successfull cycle in my Scorpion with proper t2-racial until rax went down. Training for damagedealerships now. Better deal then maxing the 2 remaining skills (Caldari BS 5 and Signal Dispersion 5) and still not be able to jam anything while going down as fast (or faster) as pre-Kali. -- Boost ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
Quantasia	Posted - 2006.12.11 11:34:00 - [234] ECM is a specialists work - you have to train rather hard for it to just use it in pvp. After all these ECM nerfs it seems that it has become useless now - and for once and all these kind of SP are wasted until a rebalancing takes place. Some of you might ask why its useless atm - here is the answer : Lets take the typical amarr whiner (let's say DarkElf) - he still can use his SP and ships in PVE to grind etc. He can still (as he admited) learn other guns and BS and still he can use all these support skills for any other gun. For the ECM pilot its nothing he can use anymore .. sad but true, he has, IF he wants to be a damage dealer, to learn from the scratch. the second reason is the play-style of a person. there are really ppl out there we rather be versatile on ew than doing wtfbbquberdamage - why? why not! 2cents from me....
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:13:00 - [235] Any news Tuxford?
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.11 18:20:00 - [236] Originally by: Felice Remillard Any news Tuxford? I, too, would be very interested to know if the devs feel ECM ships are fine or they are still being looked into. With all the new stuff Kali brought i cant help but feel the ECM-ship balance issue is getting pushed under the carpet. They were nerfed along with ECM and have been forgotten in the sea of other things which must now be tested and, possibly, balanced.
Seriya Caldari Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.12.12 00:58:00 - [237] Also would be really interested to see the dev's take on ECM, particularly ECM specialist ships post-Revelations.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.12 06:30:00 - [238] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 12/12/2006 06:30:38 Quote: ECM is a specialists work - you have to train rather hard for it to just use it in pvp. Yeah i can say to you with maxed out skills and recon and BS 5 jamming still sucks you still cant jam ! I also would like to see what the devs say because as it stands there nerf just killed ECM dedicated ships ! a good % of caldari ships !
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.13 01:50:00 - [239] Okaaaaay........ All us painfully trained and prepared specialist ECM/covops pilots have been feeling the pain of the ECM nerf... But last night a compatriot found his cruiser repeatedly jammed by a t1 frigate with a hypnos multispec... Lemmie guess: the new "luck" factor in EVE?
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:19:00 - [240] So Tuxford, after this patch has settled down, any chance of a comment in this thread? Cheers, Stein.
Osiris Occido The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:28:00 - [241] This ECM nerf was long overdue. The less jamming I see, the better. But keeping my opinions to myself, as a case in point to the OP, my vaga two days ago in an op had no problem being jammed multiple times by a hostile scorpion. TSBS Video Vault [35] \| Perfect Quality with WMM
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:32:00 - [242] Edited by: Alchimista on 13/12/2006 18:32:43 If ECMs are so hated by a large part of the community, than take them off and give different bonuses on those (now) useless caldari ships!! But if you think to leave them......BOOST THOSE CRAPING SHIPS!!!
CleverPenguin Caldari VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:11:00 - [243] For the what i wasted too much time and learned rook? Now my rook < pre-revelations scorpion. Ugly jamm, no dps and tank. _________________________________________________________
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.14 14:12:00 - [244] Rook is the only remaining ECM ship which is capable of even remotely relibaly doing its job... Its a sad state of affairs.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.14 14:57:00 - [245] Edited by: DarkElf on 14/12/2006 15:00:49 ECM is overpowered. nerf it! just fill ur lows with sig amps multis are really powerful scorps are a solopwnmobile now rooks can perma jam 10 battleships DarkElf dives under the table for cover DE
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.14 16:41:00 - [246] Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 14/12/2006 15:00:49 ECM is overpowered. nerf it! just fill ur lows with sig amps multis are really powerful scorps are a solopwnmobile now rooks can perma jam 10 battleships DarkElf dives under the table for cover DE Thanks for the bump DE Come on Tuxford - give us a reply!!! Stein gets out broom and starts sweeping under the table whilst permajamming 15 BS's in his Griffin Not.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:38:00 - [247] Come on give us a offical reply!!! because as it stands ECM ship aint work buying or flyin
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:41:00 - [248] Originally by: Commander Wingpop Come on give us a offical reply!!! because as it stands ECM ship aint work buying or flyin I believe lack of response is answer enough, no? We are doomed.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:59:00 - [249] Agreed. IMO Scorps Rooks and Falcons weren't overpowered pre-kali. Now I've parked mine, pending a review. Seriously, in fleet, scorps were helpful, but not overpoweringly so. Always primary is more because they'd die early, and hampered your firepower. Smaller blobs, they were again, not too bad, but ... well other ships were often higher on the priority list, and you only really take 'em out because ravens suck for some engagement types. Falcon suffers from 'covert ops' syndrome - expensive and die when decloaked. Marginally more useful for jamming, but really only marginally. Rooks, are better for small gang than a scorp, but ... well all the other recons were probably better choices... All in all, not especially overpowering even before the bat came around. GOod at their role, yes, but so severely hampered because of that that were only 'reasonable' rather than 'solopwnmobile'. The bonuses really could do with doubling again for scorp and falcon. Probably BB and griffin too. Maybe only +10% on the rook though.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:06:00 - [250] Originally by: XGS Crimson So basicly.. your saying if i train up for.. lets say an I-Win domi.. then they nerf my I-Win domi that makes it unfair because i put all that time in for my I-Win ship? Thats like saying.. oh its not fair that he gets an air rifle and i get a mini gun.. now im only aloud to use a pistol.. IT STILL WINS.. ECM was.. and potentialy is way overpowerd i mean c'mon one ship able to completly remove a Dreadnoughts ability to lock and shoot? or 5 ships at once?.. you talk as if its the end of EVE as we know it.. yet you don't seem to relise that not being able to tank is one thing but when you use ECM and that effectivly tanks your entire fleet then it's another matter... why the hell should one ship be able to perma disable another? The thing is, that was _all_ an 'ECM specialised' ship could do. I know of examples where haulers have tanked a scorp for the 15km to get to jump range - I have a kestrel that does more DPS than my scorp does, albeit at a somewhat shorter range. I never really saw that as overpowered, especially with other options, and a (fairly reasonable) chance their jamming would fail. It's sad, but my fleet scorp's getting fitted with RSDs - at least with those I know I'll have an impact on the fight, and they've _always_ been able to lock down a ship. Now, I think that the number of ECMs on 'non ECM' ships was getting silly, but I never really saw the problems with the 'ECM ships'. Positive sacrifice for the gain and all. Even when tanked on all 4 slots, the scorp still goes down hard. (And really, those lows are for sensor backups and signal amplifiers and _maybe_ a damage control or a plate) shrug never mind, I have a rohk to fly in fleet, and a Drake for smaller skimishes. RIP Scorp.
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:37:00 - [251] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:39:45 Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:37:18 Oh dear, this chance based system somewhat sucks (nothing new, I know). Yesterday, we had a nice engagement but due to some misapprehension we had no Amarr-jammers in gang. But guess what? I jammed a Damnation with Ion II and a Geddon with Phase II. But I couldn't jam a Dominix with 2x Ion II all the time. Scorpion with SDA I with less strength then pre-Kali. Some days ago I couldn't even jam a bloody Thorax with 2x Ion II until it went down (no ECCM fitted). Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. -- Boost ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
k1Lz Delta team Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.15 11:21:00 - [252] Give Scorp the bonuses from rook for jaming i meen, and let every thing how it is now...
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:12:00 - [253] It's a shame, I started to really like the Scorp and it got changed. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Cyriac Keddah Caldari Frontline Defense Force Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.16 02:46:00 - [254] Originally by: Tanya Kovacs Oh dear, this chance based system somewhat sucks (nothing new, I know). Yesterday, we had a nice engagement but due to some misapprehension we had no Amarr-jammers in gang. But guess what? I jammed a Damnation with Ion II and a Geddon with Phase II. But I couldn't jam a Dominix with 2x Ion II all the time. ugh Scorpion with SDA I with less strength then pre-Kali. Some days ago I couldn't even jam a bloody Thorax with 2x Ion II until it went down (no ECCM fitted). Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. Agreed, a non-random system is needed. As it stands ECM is to big a gamble to risk ships bigger than a T1 cruiser over. There is no way to craft a reliable, predictable strategy around ECM as there is around other EWAR. (For instance: RSDs work great if you can keep range, so you can craft a strategy around that, and you know that if you can't keep range you need to bug out.) ECM might work in any situation, but not reliably. And thus it is impossible to strategize around it's use. I'm not saying it should work in every situation, but ECM pilots need to be able to recognize the situations where it fails. Make ECM predictable, even if it means making it weaker. Of course I would prefer it if you made it stronger
Nordvargr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.16 05:36:00 - [255] Originally by: Tanya Kovacs Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:39:45 Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. That's not really a fair comparison between other EW at all. People fit tracking computers because they are useful, and they also happen to counteract tracking disruptors. Likewise, people fit sensor boosters because they are useful, and they also work as a counter to sensor damps. ECCM does nothing on it's own, there is no incentive to fit it other than specifically countering ECM. Other EW ships will encounter some ships that happen to have modules that counter their EW, without the pilot fitting specifically to counter that type of EW. ECM does not deal with that, ECM users do not have to look to see if a ship has sensor boosters activated, or wonder if they are packing a web. And there's a huge problem with ECM working indefinitely. The ship cannot fire back, and there is nothing they can do to prevent this. Sensor damps are contingent on range, if you cannot keep that range the ship is able to shoot you. A sensor damping ship will still have to stand clear of web range of most ships, and this itself has a lot of rammifications. On top of that, ships that are inside the damped locking range are still perfectly vulnerable, just because the EW ship is at range doesn't mean tacklers are safe. Tracking disruptors don't completely take out a ships offensive capabilities either. A person can choose to move away from their target, effectively decreasing the transversal and making something trackable again, or a ranged ship can move closer until it gets into its optimal range again. All ships are still able to use drones, NOS, missiles, and EW of their own when they are tracking disrupted, it affects only turret based guns not the ships ability to fight back. But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.16 06:17:00 - [256] Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass
Spacehulk Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.16 08:16:00 - [257] ECM is overpowering before Revelations if a really small gang came against another small gang with a jammer or a fleet came against another fleet with annoying number of jammers. Thats just the way ECM should work. 2 gangs of 1 jammer in each and 1 damage dealer is a balanced fight where skills and luck on who jams first has the "upper" hand. 2 gangs where 1 has a jammer and a damage dealer and the other have 2 damage dealers .. Duh .. The jammer gang SHOULD win. Its common sense and thats what happens in real life combat. 2 gangs with damage dealers only is a fair fight where, again, skills and luck have a factor. Where the heck was ECM unbalanced and over powered except when damage dealer ships could install jammers and be "jam specialists and damage specialists" .... Bring back ECM to where it was and if we have to sacrifice tankability then we should have the choice of increasing Jam strength further or tank. Breaking something doesn't fix it.
Nordvargr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.16 08:44:00 - [258] Originally by: HIdden Canary Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass So ECM should be buffed until a scorpion can jam an entire fleet so it wont die? The fact that scorpions are always first primaries says ECM is overpowered. If ECM were nerfed into oblivion and wasn't actually a threat, FCs would be calling damage dealers primaries, but ECM still pulls more weight in a battle so the ECM boats are targeted first.
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:15:00 - [259] Originally by: Nordvargr Originally by: HIdden Canary Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass So ECM should be buffed until a scorpion can jam an entire fleet so it wont die? The fact that scorpions are always first primaries says ECM is overpowered. If ECM were nerfed into oblivion and wasn't actually a threat, FCs would be calling damage dealers primaries, but ECM still pulls more weight in a battle so the ECM boats are targeted first. Scorpions are primary coz ECM is chance based, so a scorpion "might" jam upto 7 ships "if" it gets lucky. Its not because ECM is overpowered. People dont want to take a risk so they eliminate the "potential" threat. Get rid of the chance based system, with current jamming strength, nobody would call scorpion primary. ______________________________________________________________
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:52:00 - [260] They're primary in a fleet, because they _might_ put 6 ships out of the fight for 20s before they die. Realistically, it's more like 2, and far more often than I like none at all. Anything smaller than a fleet, and you're just going to die, as even one BS that's not jammed and you'll be dead before your next cycle. 1v1 (which do occasionally happen) you do have a reasonable chance of maintaining a jam. 4 5 jammers is about a 70% chance of jamming a battleship. Even if you do though, you're not actually killing your opponent, as they slowboat to the nearest gate or station. And then your 70% fails, and you die.
ObiAliKonobi mUfFiN fAcToRy Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.16 13:44:00 - [261] They nerfed ecm ? Oh my that is tragic. I am lost for words whatever shall we do.
Altai Saker Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.16 14:34:00 - [262] Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done http://www.omniscient-order.com/
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.16 18:16:00 - [263] ITs funny you can always tell who doesnt fly ecm ships ! Quote: Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... has anyone ever thought that ecm isnt the problem, i mean look at it this way a scorp couldnt take another bs on its own or it would take days ... its the ships or friends the scorp has that takes you down , yeah your jammed for 20s (maybe) enough friends would kill any ship in that! but scorpion on its own wouldnt ! all eves turning in to is tank and gank, its not tactics anymore its who has the most friends and best tank! ecm played a vital part of tactics before kali i mean how many of you while scanning out a fleet saw a scorp in the fleet and then thought twice about it ! or getting a scorp on your side to counter it! Quote: They're primary in a fleet, because they _might_ put 6 ships out of the fight for 20s before they die. Realistically, it's more like 2, and far more often than I like none at all. as any fleet commander knows when you call out a primary its usally jammers first or damage dealers! and look at how fast a scorp would drop pre kali and now look at it ! Ecm needs sorting i my self fly many ships and since kalis launch havent undocked a dedicated ECM ship once ! just because the scorp couldnt jam when its life depended on it !
Crimpp	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:48:00 - [264] CCP.....Re-do EW from the ground up. Make it 'on par' with the rest of EvE. The complexity, the depth, the complete lack of guess work.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:51:00 - [265] Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Pfft, hardly. I fly scorps because they're interesting, not because they're effective. Oh, and they're not bad at getting on killmails because they 'shoot at' a lot of different targets. ECM was overpowered, because everyone was fitting them. Of those though, seriously, how often did you see a scorpion, rook or falcon, or even a griffin? BBs sometimes, but primarily because there weren't really any other 'useful' caldari PvP cruisers. When a mod is overpowered, it shows up on lots and lots of ships. Fine, ECM fits that bill. ECM specialised ships are good at only one thing - their damage output is poor, their tank is rubbish. And now they're even worse than they were. A 4 slots armour tank on a scorpion was never really a threat to anything (and of course, I still assert that at least 2 of those should have been for sensor backups and signal amps). I don't think ECM _specialised_ ships were all that potent anyway - even before the swing of the nerfbat, my scorp had a hard time holding it's own against another BS. It's singular advantage was that it had a chance of jamming ceptors and warping off if things went badly wrong. Well, that and 8 mids is interesting. Scorps used to be a 'sometimes I-win' button, which IMO was reasonable. Now they're 'sometimes I don't get totally owned' ships, that are getting fit with remote sensor dampeners rather than ECMs.
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:01:00 - [266] I guess the question is... Does CCP want a multi-layered, textured games with different options of game-play style for its subscribers? Or does it want a game wholly focussed about battleship versus battleship... At the moment it is clearly only a battleship v battleship game... With the current setup for ECM, the only way I will risk all that expensive equipment on my ecm dedicated ships is if they hugely boost their tank. I succeed with high skills only once every four cycles in a jam. But I can die in one cycle. Would any HAC pilot put up with only hitting their target once in four attempts, but can pop in one? If you're not going to boost ECM, give me a chance like any other t2 cruiser (HAC) to stay in the field a bit longer... give me a tank. Yes, I can fit a tank to these ships. IF I DON'T FIT THE PRIMARY SYSTEM OF THESE SHIPS - ECM!!!! And my t1 cruiser has higer DPS... Until then, I'll continue flying boring "boom - boom" ships until I get sick of it... hopefully by then, there'll be a new option to switch to before I switch off...
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:31:00 - [267] Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Right. Now imagine Noses being nerfed so badly they are only really usefull on the Curse, and even then its debatable. Yes the Pilgrim would have trouble using them too. So much fun, right?
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:43:00 - [268] Edited by: DarkElf on 17/12/2006 12:47:40 Originally by: DuPuy Or does it want a game wholly focussed about battleship versus battleship... At the moment it is clearly only a battleship v battleship game... That is such a load of bull. this game is in no way focussed on bs. in fect all the recons,hacs etc have very powerful weapons and can solo most bs in different ways. bs are being used less and less. yeah ecm does seem broken and no matter how happy it makes me, it does need sorting but don't exaggerate. DE
Sally Caldari R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.17 13:01:00 - [269] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Right. Now imagine Noses being nerfed so badly they are only really usefull on the Curse, and even then its debatable. Yes the Pilgrim would have trouble using them too. So much fun, right? Nope, but its not the case either. Compare the usefullness and power of ECM to the power of tracking disrupters, dampeners, or (my god!) target painters. See the trend? Before Kali ECM was greatly overpowered compared to other types of EW - no question. Now ECM is just somewhat better in most cases. And dont tell us the tales about how ECM ships are useless. Answer just 1 question: what gang will win in fair fight: 3 megathrons + 1 Scorpion or 4 megathrons? I think the answer is pretty obvious for anyone with a clue. -- Stories: #1 --
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 13:19:00 - [270] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 17/12/2006 13:19:52 Originally by: Sally Nope, but its not the case either. Compare the usefullness and power of ECM to the power of tracking disrupters, dampeners, or (my god!) target painters. See the trend? Before Kali ECM was greatly overpowered compared to other types of EW - no question. Now ECM is just somewhat better in most cases. And dont tell us the tales about how ECM ships are useless. Answer just 1 question: what gang will win in fair fight: 3 megathrons + 1 Scorpion or 4 megathrons? I think the answer is pretty obvious for anyone with a clue. Not very constructive of me but... You dont fly these ships do you? As in skilled for them and use them often.
Vidar Kentoran Minmatar Provenance.	Posted - 2006.12.17 13:58:00 - [271] Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 17/12/2006 14:00:23 Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 17/12/2006 13:59:46 Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 17/12/2006 13:58:57 Quote: my vaga two days ago in an op had no problem being jammed multiple times by a hostile scorpion. multiple times? How does that imply ECM is effective? A Vagabond, or any other cruiser-level ship, should be jammed to hell and back permanently by a Scorpion and it should have enough ECM modules left to do the same thing to another Vagabond at the same time. If not 3. Your Vagabond only has 2 more sensor strength than a T1 cruiser. I'm pretty sad, because I wanted to get into ECM, but now practically everyone I speak to tell me that I'm nuts, because it's not worth it, and after reading the posts in this thread, I have to agree. There isn't much point in playing a support ship if, after sacrificing all your survivability and playing a much riskier role because of that, it's still even arguable whether you provide viable support at all.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:17:00 - [272] just as a point for ppl to consider here. if you look at the optimal range for most ecm they are quite some range. if ur warping in at ur optimal jamming range which u should be (support ship remember) then how can most ships kill u really quickly as u say unless they're sniper fit which isn't all that common. u get a cheap ass blackbird at 100km jamming a blastertron or autopest or most ships for that matter and even if they miss a cycle then they don't even get hit while the dmg/tank ships kill the target. ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe. DE
Altai Saker Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:17:00 - [273] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Right. Now imagine Noses being nerfed so badly they are only really usefull on the Curse, and even then its debatable. Yes the Pilgrim would have trouble using them too. So much fun, right? That would actually be a dream come true for me, nos remove alot of the thinking in this game. ECM is still usable, and still powerful, whoever said it should be redesigned is right though. The concept of a chance based system just doesn't flow with eve. http://www.omniscient-order.com/
August Personage Caldari Clarf Inc	Posted - 2006.12.17 15:05:00 - [274] to the people complaining that scorps have no tank and dps: so what? they jam. if you want tanking and dps, go for the raven, it pwns, or the rokh, which pwns, or the drake, which pwns, or the cerberus, which pwns, or the crow, which pwns etc etc etc. catch my drift? to the people who will flame me for the above statement: yes, i do fly scorps. and no, i have no problem with them. yes i have read all the posts and yes this is an alt. to the guy who complained a few pages back that his friend got jammed by a non ecm ship but yet was complaining that ecm is imba, two words for you: probability based. perhaps if you didn't start every post you made with "LOL DID YOU READ MY OTHERPOSTS OMG YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T FLY ECM HSIPZ COS U NOW NOTHING" you would have seen the people saying that before me. if you have a problem with ecm being based upon probabilty, then say that instead of a random series of useless anecdotes which prove nothing, followed by "FIX ECM TUX". (also i now fit, 8 mids, that means 7 racials and 1 sensor booster. 4 lows, 2 sig amps a plate and a distortion amp. before kali, i fit the same, but with 1 extra plate. just incase you were wondering)
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 15:11:00 - [275] Originally by: August Personage to the people complaining that scorps have no tank and dps: so what? they jam. if you want tanking and dps, go for the raven, it pwns, or the rokh, which pwns, or the drake, which pwns, or the cerberus, which pwns, or the crow, which pwns etc etc etc. catch my drift? to the people who will flame me for the above statement: yes, i do fly scorps. and no, i have no problem with them. yes i have read all the posts and yes this is an alt. to the guy who complained a few pages back that his friend got jammed by a non ecm ship but yet was complaining that ecm is imba, two words for you: probability based. perhaps if you didn't start every post you made with "LOL DID YOU READ MY OTHERPOSTS OMG YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T FLY ECM HSIPZ COS U NOW NOTHING" you would have seen the people saying that before me. if you have a problem with ecm being based upon probabilty, then say that instead of a random series of useless anecdotes which prove nothing, followed by "FIX ECM TUX". (also i now fit, 8 mids, that means 7 racials and 1 sensor booster. 4 lows, 2 sig amps a plate and a distortion amp. before kali, i fit the same, but with 1 extra plate. just incase you were wondering) you nhaven't even read this op have u? ppl aren't saying they want a tank on the scorp they are saying that they should be able to jam pretty well if they aren't going to have a tank and they are saying ships like the scorp aren't powerful enough in ecm to warrant no tank atm. DE
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.17 15:16:00 - [276] ECM on any ship that does not have ECMstrength bonus should be a waste of medslot. But ECM used on a ship build for EW, like scorpion or blackbird, should be suprTme. That way we wont get anymore Multispecc domis/ishtars, and the pilots which has trained for EW-specc will finally be usefull. Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 16:27:00 - [277] Originally by: Dreez ECM on any ship that does not have ECMstrength bonus should be a waste of medslot. But ECM used on a ship build for EW, like scorpion or blackbird, should be suprTme. That way we wont get anymore Multispecc domis/ishtars, and the pilots which has trained for EW-specc will finally be usefull. that's exactly what has just been implemented. ecm's nerfed hugely and ecm ships bonus's increased. the problem being discussed here is that ecm ships have been nerfed which they shouldn't have been really. DE
Sally Caldari R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.17 18:26:00 - [278] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Not very constructive of me but... You dont fly these ships do you? As in skilled for them and use them often. I routinely fly BB. Its still best EW cruiser. Scorpion is still very valued in fleet fights, in fact after Kali even more so as now its able to reach T2 snipers. -- Stories: #1 --
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:03:00 - [279] Originally by: Vidar Kentoran multiple times? How does that imply ECM is effective? A Vagabond, or any other cruiser-level ship, should be jammed to hell and back permanently by a Scorpion and it should have enough ECM modules left to do the same thing to another Vagabond at the same time. If not 3. Your Vagabond only has 2 more sensor strength than a T1 cruiser. This is a pretty good example of the twisted mindset here. Guess what happens when 1 single vaga encounters a single curse or lachesis? Dead recon. Because their EW is near ineffective against it. The universal effeciency of ECM is a MAJOR advantage. One can only imagine the complaints if ECM had targets where it just does not work, just like the other EW systems...
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:23:00 - [280] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Vidar Kentoran multiple times? How does that imply ECM is effective? A Vagabond, or any other cruiser-level ship, should be jammed to hell and back permanently by a Scorpion and it should have enough ECM modules left to do the same thing to another Vagabond at the same time. If not 3. Your Vagabond only has 2 more sensor strength than a T1 cruiser. This is a pretty good example of the twisted mindset here. Guess what happens when 1 single vaga encounters a single curse or lachesis? Dead recon. Because their EW is near ineffective against it. The universal effeciency of ECM is a MAJOR advantage. One can only imagine the complaints if ECM had targets where it just does not work, just like the other EW systems... ahem he was talking about a vaga vs a scrop situation... thats a BS and not a recon. And your statment is also an example of a " twisted mindset". ECM is not universally usefull. In fact, since its chance based, its often useless. Now much much more than before and to the point where i no longer fly caldari ewar boats. The "universal" ecm, the infamous "multispec"... I always saw it as a backup system and never fitted it before i had at least one of each racial. If i dedicate >=6 med slots to something and my ship has multiple bonuses for those modules they should function at least somewhat reliable , right? Right now they dont. Not even close to reliable.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:40:00 - [281] Quote: Nope, but its not the case either. Compare the usefullness and power of ECM to the power of tracking disrupters, dampeners, or (my god!) target painters. See the trend? Before Kali ECM was greatly overpowered compared to other types of EW - no question. Now ECM is just somewhat better in most cases. And dont tell us the tales about how ECM ships are useless. Answer just 1 question: what gang will win in fair fight: 3 megathrons + 1 Scorpion or 4 megathrons? I think the answer is pretty obvious for anyone with a clue. The 4 megas would ... and it is clearly obvious you dont fly a scorp just from that post ! for one the scorp would be primary just because of what a crap ship it is now ! wouldnt take long to die ! and it cant jam 3 bs if it tryed ! damn mine with maxed out skills cant jam a vaga ! then its a case of more friends and whos got the more skill points !
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 20:11:00 - [282] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/12/2006 20:12:47 Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan If i dedicate >=6 med slots to something and my ship has multiple bonuses for those modules they should function at least somewhat reliable , right? Not vs all targets, no. Compare ECM vs the other EW systems - far higher range and a far smaller amount of weak/ineffective targets. The other EW ships are not reliable, too. The difference to ECM is that they are "reliable unreliable". When I am in a ship with TD boni I know that I won't do squat against missiles and know that against cruiser (or smaller) sized ACs and blasters I will not see much of an effect. And it won't help me against nos, dampeners, ecm, webs, etc - but I think you get the point. I know where I can rely on my EW system and where not. Now, when I use ECM I play russian roulette to some extend in every combat. Which sucks. But the problem is: the effect of ECM is plain out too strong to make it reliable. Because then you would have en EW system which works reliable gainst everything vs 3 other systems which work reliable only against a few targets. The only way for ECM to loose it's randomness is to change it's effect to something else which isn't effective vs everything.
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.17 20:19:00 - [283] Increase the bonus for ECM-strength on Scorpion and all other ships that is build specifically for using EW, and make it a huge increase aswell. They also need to nerf ECM-drones because atm, any pilot with skill for EW-drones will be able to jam any ship using 5 of those pesky critters. Targetjamming ECM in all forms, be it drones or modules needs to be rendered useless on regular ships. Is that to hard for CCP/Tux to realize ? We also need an equally effective counter towards missiles as TDs are against guns, its about time the Devs figured out a midslot-mod that does exactly that. So boost ECM-ships, nerf targetjamming-drones & mods, give us a "TD" for missiles. Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:03:00 - [284] Originally by: Aramendel Now, when I use ECM I play russian roulette to some extend in every combat. Which sucks. But the problem is: the effect of ECM is plain out too strong to make it reliable. Because then you would have en EW system which works reliable gainst everything vs 3 other systems which work reliable only against a few targets. The only way for ECM to loose it's randomness is to change it's effect to something else which isn't effective vs everything. Ok.. It was my understanding that cladari are meant to have the most powerfull form of ewar. It seems to be a matter of CCP design. A few thigns point to this, for example: 1. compare the four "basic" ewar ships. The blackbird, the celestis, the arbitrator and the bellicose. I wont get into the bellicose. We all know its... lacking. It deserves a thread of its own. Now the remaining three. We can all agree that as far as ewar goes its ECM>dampeners>TDs. Lets looks at these ships and ignore their ewar component. Without ewar the blackbird is clearly the weakest ship. For arguments sake lets assume they all tank equally well (personally i think the bb bites the bullet here too but this can be argued). Both the celestis and the arbitrator have some dps to speak of. The celestis gets a hybrid dmg bonus and a decent dronebay (40m compared to blackbirds 15m). The arbitrator gets a huge dronebay(75m) and a dmg/hp bonus to its drones effectivly making it into a vexor with an ewar bonus. The balckbird has no dmg bonus and a crap drone bay. Conclusion: EWAR asaide, the BB is the weakest of these cruisers and the arbitrator is the most powerfull. This is exact relation to the strenght of ewar systems they are meant to carry. The weakest ship gets the most powerfull system and the strongest ship gets the weakest system. 2. The caldari are the only race to get a dedicated EWAR battleship 3. Caldari recons exclusively focus on their ewar system. Other races recons get powerfull secondary ewar system bonuses in addition to their racial system. These being the scramblers on gallente, the nosferatus on amarr and the webbers on minmatar. From these points i can only conclude that ECm is suppoused to be stronger than other races ewar by the original ccp design which probably blends into some greater balance scheme. Now if you disagree with this... It is a matter waaaaaaaay beyond the scope of the problem which this thread adresses. The thread is suppoused to be about balancing certain ships. Not ECM in genreal. ECM was nerfed. ECM ships got a slight boost. In my opinion, as a dedicated ECM pilot, this boost is nowhere near enough and these ships are currently not worth flying.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:18:00 - [285] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/12/2006 22:18:57 1.) Non-ECM EW cruisers get a damage bonus, ECM cruisers get an range bonus. This is a rather significant one - why do you think are scorps used in fleet fights? Because their EW system is the only one which can be used at these distances. Basically, the lack of (t1) dps bonus of the ECM ships is due to the caldari more range, less damage credo. 2.) And the gallente have the command ship which has the boni for EW. From the background story much points to gallente being a strong EW race, too. Also, the lack of an EW BS of the other races has been under much debate with the tier 3 BS, since it gave caldari 3 difference "specialities" which go from the frig to the BS lvl while the other races have at best 2 specs on the BS lvl. 3.) This is true. But this only applies to the ecm on caldari recon ships being better than the EW on the other races recon ships. Which it is. With this line of argumentation the BB has no justification to be better than the other t1 EW cruisers. On the recon lvl the non-caldari EW cruisers keep their (t1 cruiser) effeciency of their EW system and get from the t2 lvl a bonus to an additional EW system. ECM recons get an additional bonus to ecm, which pushes it's effeciency past that of damperners and TDs which only get the bonus from the t1 skill. ----- Also, there is a very thin line between something being better than its alternatives and being so strong that it is pointless to use anything else. For example take the old gankgeddon. From the background it fit perfectly in the amarr gank & tank credo. Gamebalance wise it made any other dps BS obsolete, though. So it got a nerf. It is still a good ship, but not really superior to other BS. Making ECM reliably effective with it's current effect would make it the "gankgeddon" of the EW systems.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:03:00 - [286] The point of my post was to show that ECM is stronger than the other ewar systems intentionaly. Im preety sure they meant it to be stronger when they made it. The cruisers comparison supports this by showing that the bb is far more dependant on its ewar system than the other races ewar ships. Hence it stands to reason it should use a more powerfull form of ewar. On the command ship topic. Indeed. Gallente use the second most powerfull ewar system. So it might make sence that they would use information warfare links. Still, personally, i dont think it suits them very well. No idea on what might replace it tough should it be changed. As far as the thin line goes.. not sure what to say.. you belive it to be overpowering.. I do not. I can support this by many many failed cycles and ecm ships i have lost :) as i am sure you can somehow support your claim. Its up to CCP to decide on this. And up to us, perhaps, to point out they may have overlooked something. Again... I belive ECM is the strongest EWAR system on purpose. Its not an unintentional balance problem. Or wasnt. It has now become so. The whole thing needs more balancing. Or... You seem to belive that ECM is a mistake in its very concept not only its effectivness. If this is indeed the case than a complete workover is in order. This is not something i wish to discuss. While this would possibly solve all the ECM problems i think it best to leave such major changes to game designers.
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:56:00 - [287] Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 17/12/2006 12:47:40 Originally by: DuPuy Or does it want a game wholly focussed about battleship versus battleship... At the moment it is clearly only a battleship v battleship game... That is such a load of bull. this game is in no way focussed on bs. in fect all the recons,hacs etc have very powerful weapons and can solo most bs in different ways. bs are being used less and less. yeah ecm does seem broken and no matter how happy it makes me, it does need sorting but don't exaggerate. DE Hmmm.... powerful weapons on caldari recons? What, exactly? two heavy missile launcher 2s? Or would you be fitting the ultra-close range heavy assault launchers on a cloaker? As for HACs etc... still all look like Pew Pew types to me...
Vidar Kentoran Minmatar Provenance.	Posted - 2006.12.18 06:29:00 - [288] Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 18/12/2006 06:29:45 Originally by: Aramendel This is a pretty good example of the twisted mindset here. Guess what happens when 1 single vaga encounters a single curse or lachesis? Dead recon. Because their EW is near ineffective against it. The universal effeciency of ECM is a MAJOR advantage. One can only imagine the complaints if ECM had targets where it just does not work, just like the other EW systems... Twisted mindset? Um, ok. I don't see what's twisted at all about expecting an ECM battleship that has pitiful dps and no tank to be able to jam 2-3 cruisers succesfully. Do people really want ECM to be completely worthless? What good is a support battleship that can only negate one cruiser, let alone another actual battleship???? And what the heck do Recons vs HACs have to do with anything? Recons are not battleships.
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.18 14:35:00 - [289] Still no official reponse Tux?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.18 14:48:00 - [290] The problem with ECM it doesn't really make sense. In EVE, your target lock is everything - break that and in 95% of cases you can't do any damage at all to your enemy. In all real-world examples of ECM, jamming of something would never stop you acquiring a target lock unless it was extremely powerful, it would act like a sensor dampener does currently - it would require you to be much closer to your target to filter out the noise. Which brings us to the real crux of the matter - if you wanted to redesign ECM as it is in EVE, it's a real problem working out how it can do what it does in a consistent predictable manner (i.e. not statistical over a length of time in which a battle can be over). I don't really have a solution for this. Possibly ECM as it exists should just go, and all the other forms should be boosted to replace it (and bonus' altered etc.), but that doesn't seem right to my mind and probably not to anyone elses.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.18 15:01:00 - [291] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 17/12/2006 21:29:10 Originally by: Aramendel Now, when I use ECM I play russian roulette to some extend in every combat. Which sucks. But the problem is: the effect of ECM is plain out too strong to make it reliable. Because then you would have en EW system which works reliable gainst everything vs 3 other systems which work reliable only against a few targets. The only way for ECM to loose it's randomness is to change it's effect to something else which isn't effective vs everything. Ok.. It was my understanding that cladari are meant to have the most powerfull form of ewar. It seems to be a matter of CCP design. A few thigns point to this, for example: 1. compare the four "basic" ewar ships. The blackbird, the celestis, the arbitrator and the bellicose. I wont get into the bellicose. We all know its... lacking. It deserves a thread of its own. Now the remaining three. We can all agree that as far as ewar goes its ECM>dampeners>TDs. Lets looks at these ships and ignore their ewar component. Without ewar the blackbird is clearly the weakest ship. For arguments sake lets assume they all tank equally well (personally i think the bb bites the bullet here too but this can be argued). Both the celestis and the arbitrator have some dps to speak of. The celestis gets a hybrid dmg bonus and a decent dronebay (40m). The arbitrator gets a huge dronebay(75m) and a dmg/hp bonus to its drones effectivly making it into a vexor with an ewar bonus. The balckbird has no dmg bonus and no drone bay. Conclusion: EWAR asaide, the BB is the weakest of these cruisers and the arbitrator is the most powerfull. This is exact relation to the strenght of ewar systems they are meant to carry. The weakest ship gets the most powerfull system and the strongest ship gets the weakest system. 2. The caldari are the only race to get a dedicated EWAR battleship 3. Caldari recons exclusively focus on their ewar system. Other races recons get powerfull secondary ewar system bonuses in addition to their racial system. These being the scramblers on gallente, the nosferatus on amarr and the webbers on minmatar. From these points i can only conclude that ECm is suppoused to be stronger than other races ewar by the original ccp design which probably blends into some greater balance scheme. Now if you disagree with this... It is a matter waaaaaaaay beyond the scope of the problem which this thread adresses. The thread is suppoused to be about balancing certain ships. Not ECM in genreal. ECM was nerfed. ECM ships got a slight boost. In my opinion, as a dedicated ECM pilot, this boost is nowhere near enough and these ships are currently not worth flying. Put it into words perfectly. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.18 15:05:00 - [292] Bottom line for THIS thread is; The ECM nerf worked 'reasonably' well with regards to stopping anyone with a spare mid slot fitting a multispec and getting a silly number of jams with it. The ECM nerf didn't work with regards to preventing the ships which are dedicated to it from using ECM effectively (and by that I mean a sensible balance between ECM effectiveness, tank and DPS) as their bonuses were a bit shy of where they 'should' be to make them effective fleet ships. Tux - are you looking at the Caldari ECM hsip bonuses? The whole discussion about whether ECM should be in the game or not are ripe for a thread of their own.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.18 18:36:00 - [293] Originally by: Vidar Kentoran Twisted mindset? Um, ok. I don't see what's twisted at all about expecting an ECM battleship that has pitiful dps and no tank to be able to jam 2-3 cruisers succesfully. Reliably taking out 2-3 cruisers is (from the sensorstrength) about the same as reliably taking out 1-2 BS. The enemy "looses" 1.5 BS, the side with the scorp "looses" 0.5 BS (reduced dps output of the scorp).
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.18 20:00:00 - [294] Originally by: Aramendel Reliably taking out 2-3 cruisers is (from the sensorstrength) about the same as reliably taking out 1-2 BS. The enemy "looses" 1.5 BS, the side with the scorp "looses" 0.5 BS (reduced dps output of the scorp). What? Are you adding values which are completely independant in regards to to the functions they preform then comparing them to another set of added values which are independant of ecah other??? Then assuming the relation you established can be connected to yet antoher set of completely independant random rolls????? What exactly is this supposed to demonstrate even if it did make any sence? Or.. to put it bluntly... WTF!?
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:00:00 - [295] You know I just thought of a great way for ecm to work every ship has a sensor strength and each type of ecm mod has an ecm strength if you put enough ecm on a ship that the ecm strength is greater then the ships sensor strength there jammed oh hang on a sec And yes cycle jamming sucked but it would probably be easier to fix that problem than the current joke of a system we have now.
Spacehulk Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.19 03:07:00 - [296] In response to a few of the above posts : Originally by: DarkElf ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe. A jammer should not be close to a target. I never was unless they warp next to me. Remember we are support. Originally by: Sally I routinely fly BB. Its still best EW cruiser. Scorpion is still very valued in fleet fights, in fact after Kali even more so as now its able to reach T2 snipers. Yes and no and it always was that way, depending on if you used racials and what ammo the other person used. Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan It was my understanding that cladari are meant to have the most powerfull form of ewar. Interesting post you have but ECM isn't the most potent. I am into "EWar" and maybe that gives me (and others too) an insight on whats the best way to kill a Caldari ECM ship using another race's skills. Also Caldari tend to have the worst Scan Resolution making them the slowest to lock. Originally by: Aramendel Reliably taking out 2-3 cruisers is (from the sensorstrength) about the same as reliably taking out 1-2 BS. The enemy "looses" 1.5 BS, the side with the scorp "looses" 0.5 BS (reduced dps output of the scorp). And when a HAC is able to tank and take down a BS its OK cuz its a HAC and someone is selling it for 200 mill, but its still a cruiser ... Oh never mind .. We are talking about how a BS should not be able to jam 2-3 cruisers and why .. Oh nm .. your maths just doesn't make sense. Freedom Technologies
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:09:00 - [297] Quote: Interesting post you have but ECM isn't the most potent. I am into "EWar" and maybe that gives me (and others too) an insight on whats the best way to kill a Caldari ECM ship using another race's skills. Also Caldari tend to have the worst Scan Resolution making them the slowest to lock. If you are into Ewar try the other EW systems. YOu are ECM specced, not Ewar specced. ECM is not the same as ewar, it is only part of it. ECM had and still has major advantages compared to them. Also, caldari have the highest sensor strength and locking range (and their ECM ships use missiles), so they have the highest native "resistance" against all kinds of EW. You cannot just look at the disadvantages. Quote: And when a HAC is able to tank and take down a BS its OK cuz its a HAC and someone is selling it for 200 mill, but its still a cruiser ... Oh never mind .. We are talking about how a BS should not be able to jam 2-3 cruisers and why .. Oh nm .. your maths just doesn't make sense. Not "a BS". Some BS. Under certain, specific situations. For example, a vaga certainly can kill a ratting BS. A raven with cruises will cause it problems though. As will most BS (and BC) pvp setups. Generic pvp setups, mind you, not some to specifically counter the vaga. ECM isn't situation specific to such an extend and has no real "natural" enemies. As for the maths, a vaga has a sensorstrength of 14. BSs between 17-24. If you can jam 3 * 14 point targets reliably you can jam 2 17-24 point targets reliably instead, too. That should be rather obvious. Also, something being a BS does not give it any reason to be "uber". BS are not supposed to be solopownmobiles. A frig can take down one under the right conditions.
Bondage Betty	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:28:00 - [298] Caldari got nerfed! YAY!
Crimpp	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:04:00 - [299] This needs to be addressed...yes, this is a blatant bump in an attempt to foster attention on this subject.
Fortune B	Posted - 2006.12.19 19:02:00 - [300] Hi is there any whare i can read about how ecm works now after kali about the randomness and so.
DarkElf Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.19 19:57:00 - [301] Originally by: Spacehulk In response to a few of the above posts : Originally by: DarkElf ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe. A jammer should not be close to a target. I never was unless they warp next to me. Remember we are support. you just repeated exactly what i said in case u didn't realise. my point was that jammers are a ranged weapon and they should be used at range because u are support and u can'tbe so easily killed by most ships if ur 80km out. DE
Galum Arfamon Red 42	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:21:00 - [302] Originally by: Dreez ECM on any ship that does not have ECMstrength bonus should be a waste of medslot. But ECM used on a ship build for EW, like scorpion or blackbird, should be suprTme. That way we wont get anymore Multispecc domis/ishtars, and the pilots which has trained for EW-specc will finally be usefull. Right on target. Scorp and BBs have NOTHING BUT ECM to protect themselves. Granted they are fleet support ships, but everybody flying them know you're primary in any fleet combat. We EMC pilots can't tank, and now We can't even efficiently jam anymore :( I was used to have a target painted on my hull in my BB or Scorp, but at least I was useful in a fleet.. not anymore..
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:24:00 - [303] Originally by: DarkElf Originally by: Spacehulk In response to a few of the above posts : Originally by: DarkElf ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe. A jammer should not be close to a target. I never was unless they warp next to me. Remember we are support. you just repeated exactly what i said in case u didn't realise. my point was that jammers are a ranged weapon and they should be used at range because u are support and u can'tbe so easily killed by most ships if ur 80km out. DE Aye... However as we all know this is not always an option. Also... I have often had to act as cover for my (mostly) short rng gangs vs snipers. Jamming (especially battleship targets, which is what most snipers are) at 200km and above was preety difficult even with good skills. Right now i dare not try it. :)
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.21 18:54:00 - [304] Remove ECM and give to those caldari craping ships different bonuses, or boost those jamm!!!
Maxamus Rex Caldari Nevada Space Salvage	Posted - 2006.12.21 20:19:00 - [305] I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story. Millions for defence not one penny in trubute
Caztra Tor	Posted - 2006.12.21 23:03:00 - [306] /signed in agreement w/ op With all due respect, CCP you could at least give us our freaking points spent on specializing in the now krap EW skills. Thank you for your time, I hate wasting mine. Caztra Tor
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:31:00 - [307] Originally by: Maxamus Rex I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story. As you said, yuo dont know what we are talking about.... we are talking about caldari dedicated ships, not thorax or something else that have differet bonuses, can make damage and tank, but just the so called "dedicated" ships.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:40:00 - [308] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 22/12/2006 11:39:49 Originally by: Maxamus Rex I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story. Are you sure they were using ECM? A lot of people including many of my own gangs have turned to using excessive amounts of dampeners . The effect is quite similar.
Crimpp	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:02:00 - [309] All that needs to be said has been said. (Just keeping this on the front page....)
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:54:00 - [310] Originally by: Crimpp All that needs to be said has been said. (Just keeping this on the front page....) And still no dev love for us... or even a compasionate pat on the back... or ruthless stare.. We are indeed doomed. Btw i want a "doomed" smiley. Could we get that please?
Tollpan Caldari The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.24 22:21:00 - [311] CCP should adjust the bonuses of the ew-ships or they can remove them from the game completely, because right now they are totally useless. ------------------ - nihil magis stimulans quam successus -
Lunanie Final-Vendetta	Posted - 2006.12.26 00:21:00 - [312] The idea was good.... no ECM domi's anymore but now all Caldari ECM ships are kinda useless Plz give Caldari pilots a compensation for the skills or fix it because it's not even funny how useless ECM ships are now. No tank and if it loses 1 cycle against multiple ships (or even 1) it's going down before u can say "wtf".
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.12.26 00:27:00 - [313] i self destructed my scorpions just to get my insurance money back. Too bad i cant do that with my rook/falcon...
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.27 20:02:00 - [314] When looking at low slot jamming enhancers variations, tech II is listed, does it exist ingame? Not that it does any good to fly a ship without lowslots, but I'd like to know anyway. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.28 13:49:00 - [315] Originally by: Sorja When looking at low slot jamming enhancers variations, tech II is listed, does it exist ingame? Not that it does any good to fly a ship without lowslots, but I'd like to know anyway. AFAIK they exist, but still not on commerce....anyways they will come to cost more than the ship they are going to fit, so prolly useless.
Takahashi Chiaki hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.28 14:11:00 - [316] Originally by: Alchimista AFAIK they exist, but still not on commerce....anyways they will come to cost more than the ship they are going to fit, so prolly useless. Signal Distortion Amplifier II - 6M. quite affordable, imho..
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.28 14:15:00 - [317] ok i don't see the problem with ecm tbh guys. i just fought 2 scorps and a raven in my domi with twin conjunctive eccm on. Both scorp pilots were only about a year old and they still got quite a few cycles on me. i found out from their loot and killmails that they were only using multis. there is no way that they should jam me that much with multis if i'm sacrificing 2 of my mid slots to counter them. yes all 3 died but the fight took 9 dam minutes because i was jammed so much. i'm sure i'm gonna get attacked by ecm uses for saying this but it seemed pretty good still to me. ps they both had 4 hypnos sig amps in lows (which all 8 went frickin pop ) maybe that's what made them decent. DE
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:33:00 - [318] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 28/12/2006 23:34:33 Originally by: DarkElf ok i don't see the problem with ecm tbh guys. i just fought 2 scorps and a raven in my domi with twin conjunctive eccm on. Both scorp pilots were only about a year old and they still got quite a few cycles on me. i found out from their loot and killmails that they were only using multis. there is no way that they should jam me that much with multis if i'm sacrificing 2 of my mid slots to counter them. yes all 3 died but the fight took 9 dam minutes because i was jammed so much. i'm sure i'm gonna get attacked by ecm uses for saying this but it seemed pretty good still to me. ps they both had 4 hypnos sig amps in lows (which all 8 went frickin pop ) maybe that's what made them decent. DE I hope you didnt fight them solo. If so how on earth is this considered balanced. 3bs(1 year old players, 2 tier1,1 tier2 bs, 2 of these ecm ships) vs 1bs(tier1 bs) and you manage to kill at least 2 of them... And people say ECM is overpowered even....
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:46:00 - [319] Edited by: Aramendel on 28/12/2006 23:47:17 Maybe you missed that he had 2* ECCM fitted. It was an anti-setup. If a blastermega encounters 3 sniper-rohks at point blank range those rohks will die, too. That does hardly make sniper BSs obsolete/weak. It just means that there are ways to counter them.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:51:00 - [320] I found a new use for the scorpion! Since I wasted all that time training ECM and wasyed money on Top end Named Mutli's and Race ECM I decided that the scorpion needed a new role! We all know it has a sad damage output and the tank can be crazy so I though about what it could do now. I give you the silly... Nos-ion support ship! 6 x Heavy Nos 2 x Invul. 2 x LSE 1 x MWD 1 x XL SB 1 x Web 1 x Scram This ship is more useful then I thought it would be. I have used it to help me Corp mates out. I move in to range, Nos away, and lock down, while everyone else drops down the death on the target. While I admit it's a silly setup it at least gives the scorp a job again! ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:51:00 - [321] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 28/12/2006 23:47:17 Maybe you missed that he had 2* ECCM fitted. It was an anti-setup. If a blastermega encounters 3 sniper-rohks at point blank range those rohks will die, too. That does hardly make sniper BSs obsolete/weak. It just means that there are ways to counter them. Wait a minute are you saying ECCM acutally works? ECCM not working was one of the main reasons for the ECM nerf in the first place... Even after the ECCM buff people were crying it does nothing... BTW... I know it works... However i find it funny people are realizing this only now that ECM is worthless.
Zed Nash	Posted - 2006.12.29 18:05:00 - [322] 11 pages of "OMG ECM IS NERFED!!!!" but I have yet to see any definitive testing. As a chance-based system, you will get failures regardless of skills, accept it. Heck, you can even get a solid string of failures on a perfectly functioning chance-based system. Using one example of a failed jam as an example of a broken chance-based system isn't exactly definitive proof. All examples brought to this thread are "one time........." which doesn't make for a very compelling arguement. Has anyone EXTENSIVELY tested ECM since the patch? By "extensively" I mean: 1. Tested successes for racial ECM against same-race ships over multiple engagements, not 1 or 2 but more like 40 or 50, for a base success rate on racials? 2. Tested successes for multispec ECM against a wide range of ships over mutliple engagements, again not 1 or 2, for a base success rate on multispecs? 3. Tested again with 1, 2 and 3 lowslot mods again over multiple engagements to determine exactly how they affect success percentages? 4. Tested yet AGAIN with ECM rigs again over mutliple engagements to determine how they affect base success percentages? 5. Tested another time with ECCM to determine how they affect success rates overall? This is how you get a dev response, numbers and definitive proof. Not crying and whining and just simply stating it's nerfed because "one time............" I've seen very few numbers in all 11 pages of this thread, and the only ones bringing them are those who say THEY ARE FINE, says something. I don't have an opinion, but if you're going to state things are broken, back it up or shut up. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.29 18:23:00 - [323] Originally by: Zed Nash 11 pages of "OMG ECM IS NERFED!!!!" but I have yet to see any definitive testing. As a chance-based system, you will get failures regardless of skills, accept it. Heck, you can even get a solid string of failures on a perfectly functioning chance-based system. Using one example of a failed jam as an example of a broken chance-based system isn't exactly definitive proof. All examples brought to this thread are "one time........." which doesn't make for a very compelling arguement. Has anyone EXTENSIVELY tested ECM since the patch? By "extensively" I mean: 1. Tested successes for racial ECM against same-race ships over multiple engagements, not 1 or 2 but more like 40 or 50, for a base success rate on racials? 2. Tested successes for multispec ECM against a wide range of ships over mutliple engagements, again not 1 or 2, for a base success rate on multispecs? 3. Tested again with 1, 2 and 3 lowslot mods again over multiple engagements to determine exactly how they affect success percentages? 4. Tested yet AGAIN with ECM rigs again over mutliple engagements to determine how they affect base success percentages? 5. Tested another time with ECCM to determine how they affect success rates overall? This is how you get a dev response, numbers and definitive proof. Not crying and whining and just simply stating it's nerfed because "one time............" I've seen very few numbers in all 11 pages of this thread, and the only ones bringing them are those who say THEY ARE FINE, says something. I don't have an opinion, but if you're going to state things are broken, back it up or shut up. Is this really nessecary? I was under the impression we knew how the ECM random enginge works. This formula is used: A / B = D (100)D = E A = ECM jamming strength for the intended sensor type B = The target ships Sensor strength D = Unfinal decimal of success E = 100 times D, which will show you the final percentage. Meaning E will the chance you have of jamming a specific ship. Example against an Apocalypse: 6 radar jamming strength / 20 sensor strength on the apoc = .3 100 * .3 = 30 This means a 30% chance to jam the apoc per ECM with a strenght of 6(multispec ECM with good skills and on a dedicated ECM ship - pre KALI). If you are using multiple jammers on a single target we have the wonderfull world of mathematics to help us out yet again: Chance_to_jam = {1-[(1-E1)(1-E2)...(1-En)]}100 With Ez, E2... En being each of your jammers' chance to jam the ship. If all your jammers are equal, E1=E2=En, of course, and the formula is: Chance_to_jam = {1-[(1-E)^n]}100 n being your number of jammers on the target. Example 1: ECM1=30% ECM2=40% Chance_to_jam = 1 - [(1-0.30)(1-0.40)] =1 - [0.700.60] = 58% chance to jam. Example 2, lets look at the supposed Megatron vs 4 jammers in unskilled hands: 4 jammers, all the same, E=22.8% {1 - [(1-0.228)^4]}100 = {1 - [0.772^4\|}100 = {1 - 0.355}100 = 64.5% chance to jam. Bear in mind the values used are pre kali and on ECM ships. I really dont see the need for specific testing. As a an ex ECM ship pilot i have done plenty of proper combat testing and it seems to conform to these formulas. If i run the maths now i get numbers which are just not worth using. And no... I wont calculate it for you. I dont feel like doing it right now. I have already written an extensive guide for prekali ECM, complete with statistics, tests and such and dont feel like writing another one now that i no longer use ECM. If you wish i can make my original guide available. The formulas used above are not originally mine they were ripped form a a different poster on a different forum which would, i suspect, rather remain anonymous.
Zed Nash	Posted - 2006.12.29 18:45:00 - [324] Edited by: Zed Nash on 29/12/2006 18:45:40 Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Bear in mind the values used are pre kali and on ECM ships. Pre-Kali.......... So folks who feel it's broken have the math, they can now gather the numbers post-Kali to show that ECM is not viable, or viable depending on the outcome. Like I said, I don't have an opinion either way. I don't fly ECM ships (SD guy here, Gal specialized), but they're definately an interesting course I've been considering. I would like to know if those who feel it's not worth flying can back it up, especially given the current anti-hype surrounding them, underestimation is a valuable asset in the field. If we know that only 1 in 8 jams is successful on average (as an example), through extended testing, then we know for a fact, undisputably, that the system is not viable and should be looked into. If 1 in 2, then we know the system is immensly valuable and shouldn't be overlooked. Chance-based systems work on the law of averages, using an isolated example of a string of failures isn't proof the system is broken, just that you had bad luck. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Judge Glar Minmatar Fallen Angel's Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.29 22:37:00 - [325] Yeah. I think ewar is broken too. With a black bird using multis and 50% ewar skills, I have about a 13% chance per jammer to lock out a Raven. Notwithstanding, I just jammed a Raven 4 out of 4 times using only two cheezy multis. I fit 4 x sensor damper and 2 x multi. If the multi's hit, it's icing. Would be nice to use dedicated ewar tho. Fitting 6 multis on blackbird guarantees nothing other than that you will be called primary.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.31 14:20:00 - [326] Another thread reminded me to point this out. How many ECM ships have you seen in battle since Kali 1? Please remeber that not every time you see the "jamming bar" and lose lock its due to ECM. Sensor dampeners have exactly the same effect if they are used properly. I am an active pvper. Since Kali i remeber fighting exactly one ECM ship. This was a Rook and happened just a few days after the patch. The word fightign here being used in the most broad possible prespective since the gang which included it outnumbered and out gunned us badly so we ran like hell :). No killmails were created in the encounter. Since that rook i dont remeber seeing a single ECM ship on scanner (barring a couple of, presumably, mission running, tanked to hell Scorps) let alone fighting one. I remeber fighting a Drake which fitted a single multispec. This was a guy we probed out on a mission earlyer that day and when he came back to do another mission he had that silly module fitted. In an attempt to fend us off should he probed again, i guess. He avoided death by paying the ransom when he was in structure... I took two of my own scorps fitted with ECM to a suicide attacks on other pirates to have some fun and get insurance. Of course the suicide was more than just sucsefull (they did have carp fittings i admit, as i was taking them out to lose them). So... Since Kali i have seen: 1 rook which was acutally used to pvp a couple of scorps which were likely running missions and likely didnt have any ECM fitted at all. Mind you i have never managed to probe a scorp since Kali so i havent actually seen them any closer than my scanner screen. 2 ECM Scorps which went out with the specific intent to die in combat and were piloted by myself. I have no idea in how many battles i participated in since the patch, not every battle results in a killmail and its certainly not always me who gets the killmail, but i have counted 36 killmails which were mailed to me since the Kali patch. Is that a good statistic for showing that ECM ships have been overnerfed? PS For any of you wise asses out there. I have preformed ECM dedicated ship tests since kali in simualted battles vs alts and corp mates to confirm my opinion that it wasnt worth it anymore. I am not including these in numbers above for obvious reasons.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.12.31 16:27:00 - [327] I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec --- Cache Clearer
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.31 17:09:00 - [328] Originally by: HIdden Canary Tuxford said in a blog once Quote: "In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down" Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder.. Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about? Its supposted to be Quote: the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match. but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ??? Why bother fitting 6 multi ecms when you can fit 6 damps and damp anything down to pretty much zero with 100% chance of success?
Mr Vrix Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.31 17:49:00 - [329] How about if... They made, Nos a random cyle affair? SD`s a randon cycle affair? Warp scrambling a random cycle affair? Webbing a random cycle affair? TD a random cycle affair? Target painters a random cycle affair? Get the picture? I fly 90% Caldari. 100% of the time I used to fit EW. Now I tend to mix it up with dampeners,EW and TD`s. When I fly through a gate camp, why shouldn`t that scrambler be random? Why shouldn`t that bubble someone set at the gate to catch people be random? When in a fight, why does NOS always work? If you applied the same logic to all of the above, as they have to EW the game as we know it would be totally about chance. Not the skills that people have trained long and hard for. I agree totally, that in a Scorp, I should not be able to hold down 4,5,6 or more BS`s, regardless of my skills,fittings. I should not be able to change the outcome of any engagement totally by messing with this many BS`s, But I should be able to guarantee that any ship I am asked to jam, unless has counter measures, is done correctly. With the changes to WCS`s, anyone that is fitting them for PvP is putting themselfs in a huge huge disadantage. So we have scrambling almost a certain bet now. ( ok not 100%, but almost). Imagine if that was also random? Doesn`t quite sit straight does it? So, we all agree that EW was overpowered before, and the majority that use Caldari ships, know we have been kicked in the teeth a little. What I would like to see is, no other ships but caldari can even fit EW. maybe along the lines of the manticore, not enough grid to fit a CM launcher, but due to bonus it can.Keep the bonus`s as they are already to the mods. Remove the random chance of jamming, and lower ships Jam strength significantly. A Scorp should perma jam a frig, almost always jam a cruiser, and with enough fittings can jam a BS. NOT 5 or 6 as it was before. But heck, in a fleet fight should be able to lock down 1 or 2 for the duration. This will of course not sit well with many, as they want to fly their frigs/cruisers around, 100% being able to web,scramble,nos,TD,TP without any hinderance to themselves. Scorp is weak both in dps and tanking, thats the risk we take for flying the best ship in the game for EW, just now needs arranging so it IS the best in game.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.31 17:53:00 - [330] Originally by: Grez I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec No, I just want to jam something vaguely reliably if I use 6 of them on my falcon.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.31 17:57:00 - [331] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Grez I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec No, I just want to jam something vaguely reliably if I use 6 of them on my falcon. And again, what's stopping you from fitting 6 damps instead of 6 ecm?
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.31 18:03:00 - [332] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 31/12/2006 18:04:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Grez I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec No, I just want to jam something vaguely reliably if I use 6 of them on my falcon. And again, what's stopping you from fitting 6 damps instead of 6 ecm? Multiple wasted ship bonuses for example... On that note.. Whats stopping him form training for an Arazu? Nothing expect some personal reasons most likely... But this is hardly the point of this discussion.
NIkis	Posted - 2006.12.31 18:40:00 - [333] Jamming been nerfed way too much My scorp is rotting in hangar, not been out for 3 months already and not likely to go out soon Just train for dps .. as someone said.. devs like tanking and bashing , not other forms of war And god forbid SD/TP/other e-war be made random... wanna see the playerbase reduced to 1% ?
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.31 18:48:00 - [334] Originally by: NIkis Jamming been nerfed way too much My scorp is rotting in hangar, not been out for 3 months already and not likely to go out soon Just train for dps .. as someone said.. devs like tanking and bashing , not other forms of war And god forbid SD/TP/other e-war be made random... wanna see the playerbase reduced to 1% ? jamming is where it sohuld be. Pwnage PvP Recruitment
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:26:00 - [335] Originally by: Mr Vrix How about if... They made, Nos a random cyle affair? SD`s a randon cycle affair? Warp scrambling a random cycle affair? Webbing a random cycle affair? TD a random cycle affair? Target painters a random cycle affair? None of these instantly under any circumstances disable all modules of your ship which need a target to work. Damperners are closest to the effect of ECM there, but their effect can be overcome simply by flying close. And they also have about 1/4th of the optimal range ECM can get. Give ECM a weaker effect and it can be non-random.
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:40:00 - [336] The thing is, you are either jammed or your not. There's no reduction, so chance kinda has to factor in. To be honest, I was thinking it was nerfed too much. But then we did a lot of jamming practice to prepare to escort a freighter through a long lowsec trip (3 scorps/1 blackbird). Each ship jammed more often then it didn't, and even if every cycle was missed its not long before you can try again. And those were with all multispecs and one jam boost in the lows. Fitting some multispecs combined with racials I'm sure give even better odds. We ended up not being agressed at all, but I was confident we could've gotten the freighter out of harms way easily. My new scorp fitting is two multis and one of each racial for a total of 6 jammers. I'm pretty confident in that setup, we'll see how it goes.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.01 01:54:00 - [337] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 31/12/2006 18:04:05 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Grez I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec No, I just want to jam something vaguely reliably if I use 6 of them on my falcon. And again, what's stopping you from fitting 6 damps instead of 6 ecm? Multiple wasted ship bonuses for example... On that note.. Whats stopping him form training for an Arazu? Nothing expect some personal reasons most likely... But this is hardly the point of this discussion. No his point is "please make ecm enough powerful so i only need to use 1 or 2 of them to jam stuff". His point is NOT how ineffective 6 ecms are. That is MY point.
Naskaya Caldari Elegance Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.01.01 05:32:00 - [338] Maybe Dev could do something to lower the price of signal distortion T2, it's simply ridiculous ^^

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