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stainage Gallente Final-Vendetta	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:04:00 - [61] The way i see to fix this is give the Scorpion and other EW ships bigger bonuses. Say like 50% per lvl or something i dont know how much that would give but it seems the best way. Then EW can only be used on EW ships effectively
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds strange to me, I keep getting jammed all the time and im very tired of it. Well yes. Total jam == broken. Partial jam 4tw. the problem is that there needs to be a reason to bring a scorp to the fight. partial jam = death atm. you miss a cycle, and just about anyone can put you into structure in 20 secs. Before, if you missd a cycle, you got a second chance with a 4 slot armor tank. You certainly aren't going to kill somebody with a scorpian. The Scorp is pre-nerfed because of total jams. In a partial jam system, you could give the EW ships a good deal more base toughness and speed, frex. And it makes almost NO difference in a 1v1 compared to today, per my suggestion pre-Kali. And yes, partial jams would work better in bigger fights. Ohnoes! Yes, I'd like it to work differently to tdisruptors and sdamps. Commander LoC, racials are a good deal of what is WRONG with ECM. They nerf RPers who actually try and RP their race, for starters, and then there's the fact they're about as useful as a ton of manure against the OTHER races, etc. - fittings ENTIRELY determine the outcome of the fight, which is boring and plain wrong. The people suggesting static bonuses need to post stats for the T1 ships to replace the T2 ships they just created, incidentally. //Maya
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:55:00 - [63] I brought my Recon to 5 awhile ago. I should have known better because whenever I bring something up to 5, CCP somehow knows and screws me over. Anyway, with Recon 5, Caldari Cruiser 5 and the skill to increase jamming strength up to 4, I was able to get 2 out of 5 cycles on something like a Harpy with a Falcon. I slapped on 2 of the lo slot modules on and got 3 out of 5 on a Blackbird. This is with using the best named jammers. It still seems off to me. Maybe the ship bonus for Caldari EW ships should be increased by another 2.5-5 % per level.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:20:00 - [64] Edited by: Commander Wingpop on 03/12/2006 19:25:34 I also have recon 5 and use expensive jammers "officer and faction" and it does seem off ! alot ,,, ECM isnt right at all Ecm ships are totally useless like LOC said " if they cant support them selfs how the hell can they support a fleet ?
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:50:00 - [65] A solution to this would be simple: Step one: As a rule, the jam can only succeed if the jamming ship's total jamming strength exceeds the target's sensor strength. If no, the jam fails. Step two: Bring jammers back to pre-Revelation strength. You get a system where 1-2 jammer setups get useless except against the few weakest of frigates. Adding one or two backup arrays decreases the chance of being jammed and also defeats weak ECM setups. If you fill your slots with 4 or 5 backup arrays, your sensor strength will not only decrease your enemy succeeding but also deny most ECM setups from being able to jam you first place. After all, before you must have sacrificed many slots you could have used for tanking or damage dealing. What CCP did with Revelations might have been the most time-efficient short term fix. Still, fixes are no repairs and CCP might want to consider to discuss to send in the mechanics ;) _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:51:00 - [66] Strange, I seem to still be getting jammed. But its not a perma jam so I have a chance to do some damage still. Guess what, no more I-WIN. Fly EW with a gang, and it more than makes up for the loss of one ships damage output. In EvE you take risks, I may or may not break his tank before mine fails; you may or may not jam the target enough to kill him, or keep him there for someone else to kill. Jamming was too easy before, and the amount of skill needed is still less to get perfect jamming than a perfect gunboat. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:24:00 - [67] Quote: Jamming was too easy before, and the amount of skill needed is still less to get perfect jamming than a perfect gunboat. No offence but i have MAXED out jamming skills i have recon 5,signal dispersion 5,EW 5,Frequency modulation 5,Etc etc..So you could say PERFECT jamming skills and i cant keep a cruiser jammed.(by on the rook thats also with officer multi specs and faction) so just think if you cant jam a cruiser perm with maxed out skills With out putting multiple modules on them and they have no ECCM then when it comes to fleets what the hell u gonna do ? apart from die ? multiple targets and if they have eccm then you may as well right mouse and self destruct speed the process up :) The other things is you get people that go use racials ? then what the hell is the point of Multi specs ?
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:01:00 - [68] ALso for thos who are goign nothings wrong with them ... go read the other forums too exactly the same issues ! Link 1 Link 2
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:34:00 - [69] You should never be able to permanently jam am equivalent ship class unless you sacrifice all damage dealing capability. And even then its questionable. It would be an instant win condition. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:50:00 - [70] you have seen a scorp in space right ? it has the DPS of a fish !!!

Commander LoC	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:04:00 - [71] rofl, man thats stupid. it pretty much has no dps as it is! LOL There are some funny or stupid people on these forums. but no back to reality, seriously its taking away its tank for for signal amps which is reaonable but you should be able to jam a couple of ships if your a support ship because you dont have enough dps to kill any bs solo. Its always going to be a support ship now but for it to be a support ship it needs to be able to jam targets otherwise if it cant jam and it has no tank then its just dead.. might aswell buy a griffin or blackbird.. exactly the same job.. costs less. Same result.. youll either jam or more then likely not.. miss a cycle and there all dead anyways... not worth skilling for a bs or recon go with a griffin.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 06:11:00 - [72] the nerf was too much ! Ecm ships are a total Joke now !Seriously CCP you need to rethink things just read the forums! if you dont see the problem then we are truly lost ! the ammount of people caldari and non caldari that see the problem ! As Tuxford said the problem was every one and there grand mother carrying ECM before kali not dedicated Ecm ships like the scorp! so why have ECM dedicated ships been nerfed ? You try taking a scorp against any other teir one BS now and i garantee you the scorp loses before kali it had a fighting chance (with time cause of DPS)! The only change that needed to be done was to make Ecm a ECM SHIP only thing just like a covert ops cloak on a covert ops ship! That would stop everyone packing ECM and those who know there facing scorps and suck have the choice to put ECCM on simple as ! Instead you've got a whole range of issues now that mount to the ecm problem, but something needs to be done !
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 06:19:00 - [73] Tuxfords blog > They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down Translation> They are supposted to be very powerful and can lockdown 1 cruiser if your lucky but i wouldnt hold your breath and they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down now with no tank, hehe Fix Ecm Ships !
Silent Star	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:40:00 - [74] Currently a griffin has a good chance of jamming a scorp (due to quicker lock time). A blackbird can out-jam a scorp (lock time and # of slots). Neither of these ships should ever have a chance. No frigate has a chance at killing a BS. No cruiser has a chance at killing a dread. They are just too far off to have that type of advantage, and for good reason. Scorp / RECONS should always win in a jam-off.
Marcuis Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:22:00 - [75] I agree its bs what CCP has done to the EW well jamming, I to have lvl5 recon and lvl5 in all jammin skills and still the bb is **** for jammin and so is the scorp even with the jammin mods in low to boost your strength up they have nerf caldri warefare out of the game , I agree have only caldri ew ships used the jammers and no nerfin on strength just like the sphere laucnher, co-ops cloakin etc you get the point, and Jammin isnt over powered thats crap and bs look at the astra and curse with turret distruptor and Nosin for the curse and pilgrim, the gall sensor dampin that can hurt any caldri ship more then jammin does, and whats go with heavy assault launchers range i can only get is 15km if that, what they need to do is change the jammin back to way it was except only the caldri ships whos jammin abilitys allow to have ( BB, Rook , Falcon, Scorp, griffin)and everybody knows caldri ships are the slowest of them all and either shield tank or ew ive had this fight with corp mates and allaince memebers about how jammin is totaly usesless
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:47:00 - [76] Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 04/12/2006 12:53:43 Well atleast the Scorp will make a decent shieldtanker. And a pretty ugly paperweight. Nerf all EW or no EW. Well some bright young lad might say "You can fit a Tracking computer or a sensor booster". Well can't you fit a ECCM? "But the ECCM doesn't give me any bonus if noone tries to jam me" the same lad will say. Well it gives you the bonus of being much harder to jam but if you want to take the risk just go a head. Isn't Eve about risk as someone said? Edit: This doesn't mean that EW should fit in to all ships. ECM for Caldari , Damp for gall, Disrupting for Amarr. And add something nice for the minmatar. (painting is no real EW)
Spanker Absolut Profit	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:53:00 - [77] Don't know what you're talking about tbh, yesterday my drake was constajammed by a oh-look-I-have-a-midslot-open-lets-put-a-multispec-in-it astarte. Same old same old if you ask me. - Shpank
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:56:00 - [78] Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 04/12/2006 13:05:08 Nm. I always mix those damn ship up.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:27:00 - [79] Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 04/12/2006 15:28:02 The change to randomfagness was implemented so everyone could use ECM and not only Caldari. But couldnt they use both systems so that if (jamstrength)>(sensorstrength) = permajam : if (jamstrength)<=(sensorstrength) = probability of jam ? "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:32:00 - [80] In that same blog Tuxford also mentioned that maybe the ECM re-adjustment would encourage people to fit racial jammers. I'm sure if you had Ladar Jammers that Vaga would have been locked down. Conversely, i've jammed battleships in a Scorpion for multiple, consecutive cycles using the incorrect racial jammer for the ship's race. Luck is still a big part of ECM.

Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:36:00 - [81] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 04/12/2006 15:41:18 I am aslo a dedicated ECM pilot. Or was... Atm i kinda scared to undock in a ship which a) cant tank b) cant deal dmg c) cant tackle d) cant really jam anything of the equivalent ship class The nerf to ECM dedicated ships is too much. If ECM is to remain in its current state dedicated ships need a change. Either buff their ECM bonuses or bite the bullet and change their role. EDIT: oh and i forgot i wanted to comment the subject of raical jammers. I do use them. In fact i mostly use them. AS a dedicated ECM pilot i view multispecs as a backup jamming system. My scorps for exmaple genneraly feutre 4-6 racials and 0-2 multispecs. So please dont tell me to fit racilas and everything will be fine. I do. And its not.
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:28:00 - [82] prior to Kali I was getting a 9.6 on tech 2 racials now Im getting a 4.mad...As a dedicated Caldari ECM pilot I want my money back. yes Im whining maybe even shedding some tears. I always have Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook, Scorp fitted and ready to go... repackaged them last night after doing some testing with some corp mates. I think Racial EWAR should have been specialized not nerfed. The Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion should have bonuses that allow them to be the same as they were PRE-Kali. i.e. same point value (I do disagree with a chance system but thats another thread about 20 pages long). Then do the same for sensor dampners, tracking disruptors, and propulsion jamming. make all the EWARs on par with each other. I personally feel that the other EWAR systems dont require a BS level ship because of how they work but it does put everyone on the same playing field. might also give the other races a reason for having tier 3 BS... Im off to eat cheese now
Ione Hunt Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:45:00 - [83] ECM is the devil!!! ________________________________________________
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:05:00 - [84] Quote: ECM is the devil!!! LOL CCP nerfed the devil too ? damn !
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:24:00 - [85] People who say that ECM dedicated ships could permajam before the nerf are just wrong. It was still possible for the ECM ships to miss cycles and then they went down quickly. Now, you miss more often and go down quicker (due to loss of any tank in order to fit ECM 'Damage' mods). The point of the nerf was to hinder those pilots who put ECM on random ships (the Domi for example) when they had a spare slot and could still get a regular jam. This goes a long way to making this harder to achieve (which I think everyone agrees with ) but is has reduced the effectiveness of the ECM dedicated ships which I don't believe was the point of the nerf. I would advocate changing the ECM ships bonuses to make them have the same ECM strength as they had pre-nerf, maybe a touch less as we now have rigs. This way, you could boost the ECM strength using the low slot mods at the expense of your already meagre tank and make these ships what they are - dedicated ECM ships.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:31:00 - [86] The role of a ECM specialist is dead, because who in there right mind would skill for so long for something that doesnt work ? Its like skilling for tech 2 missles getting the lauchers but not having the skills for the missile! Ecm ships such as the scorp/Rook/Falcon/BlackBird were fine before kali thay held a vital part of fleet combat which inho is a double edged sword when it comes flying ecm ships , every single Ecm pilot knows your usally the first to be called as a primary in a fleet engagement! when it comes to soloing in such ships and im talking about pre kali because now it couldnt solo a Frig. Ships such as the scorp and rook they were good but took a decayed to kill a single target! But look at other tier 1 Bs now and before like the Dominix doesnt have a problem engaging multiple targets on its own and usally coming out the victor ! its a very versitile ship! taking away jamming from it did nothing to it but free mids for more toys ! instead with taking such abilitys from non caldari ships you in turn have killed the ships with deadicated ECM bonuses as well!
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:51:00 - [87] ignoring the ship to 5 issue It would take me 3 months to max out my ECM related jam skills that includes the generic ones like the cap bonus etc etc and its just going from 4 to 5 in all cases. Id hate to even look at Recon and BS to 5 whats that another 70 days?? and why do people keep saying "but you have rigs" have they looked at what it takes to build rigs let alone harvest the materials? forget buying them at least for any reasonable amount of time.
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:23:00 - [88] not asking to be able to kill your ship all ECM pilots know they have pitiful damage. If you actually read the thread youll see that dedicated ECM pilots all know they are fleet/gang support. They arent there to do dmg they arent there to do tanking. Dedicated ECM pilots want dedicated ECM on dedicated ECM ships. Those ships are specifically Griffin, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion. NONE of which have a good dmg output. I think the ECM-Nerfers have run up against situations that the ECM purists dont necesarily subscribe to like ECM doms. as for multispecs throw them away force me to fit racials even limit me to 2 or 3 races per scorp. just allow me to jam. matter of fact I cant reemmber the last time I killed a ship with any of my ECM boats... helped the gang sure done the killing nope.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:25:00 - [89] Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 18:32:03 Edited by: HIdden Canary on 04/12/2006 18:30:13 Quote: If you have the skillz Jamming is still very affective in the right ships Can you read it is clear you dont fly ecm ships and i appologize if you do ? Thats the thing i have maxed out my jamming skills level 5 in all and that includes cap skills and secondry skills for such ship like the rook ! i have recon 5 caldari battleship 5 and my scorpion with such skills cant jam a cruiser ! thats a BAttleship againt a crusier ! 5 mill again 60mill (give or take) and then you get to my rook ! recon 5 with officer and dread jammers cant jam a cruiser and keep it jammed ! the rook is the best of all the jamming ships ! and it should be able to jam pritty much anything it comes across just like the pilgrim or the cruse can nos out pritty much any BS it comes across ! Quote: A scorp is cheap and if a scorp can shutdown a tempest it is taking away a lot of uber damage. as for this Quote scorp is tier 1 domi is teir 1 same price on market around about and the scorp aint got a chance againt it ! hell the scorp as it stands aint got a chance againt a damn cruise thats set up right ! Quote: Another point is in fleet battles CCP does not want a scorp to jam a bunch of ships but maybe if you had a 3-4 scorps setup for only 1 race you would get the james you need. THen whats the pooint OF ECM ships ? I sure as hell wont be taking current ecm ships in to fleet engagments due to one fact " how can they support a fleet when at the min they cant support them selfs ? ECM ships played a great role in fleet combat and tactics and taking them away from that just turns them in to slug fest and it then comes to 2 things who has more friends and bigger guns ! simple as ! brute force over tactics ! which SUX !!! and if this is what is to become of eve then i will give great thought to quiting !
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:46:00 - [90] Kali killed ECM....that's the point. Just sign up a pubblic petition by all ECM pilots, everything could be ok if the nerf was just to the no-dedicated ships.



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