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DarkElf
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.12.19 19:57:00 -
[301]
 Originally by: Spacehulk
In response to a few of the above posts :
Originally by: DarkElf
ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe.
A jammer should not be close to a target. I never was unless they warp next to me. Remember we are support.
you just repeated exactly what i said in case u didn't realise. my point was that jammers are a ranged weapon and they should be used at range because u are support and u can'tbe so easily killed by most ships if ur 80km out.
DE
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Galum Arfamon
Red 42
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Posted - 2006.12.19 21:21:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Dreez
ECM on any ship that does not have ECMstrength bonus should be
a waste of medslot. But ECM used on a ship build for EW, like
scorpion or blackbird, should be suprTme.
That way we wont get anymore Multispecc domis/ishtars, and the
pilots which has trained for EW-specc will finally be usefull.
Right on target. Scorp and BBs have NOTHING BUT ECM to protect themselves. Granted they are fleet support ships, but everybody flying them know you're primary in any fleet combat.
We EMC pilots can't tank, and now We can't even efficiently jam anymore :( I was used to have a target painted on my hull in my BB or Scorp, but at least I was useful in a fleet.. not anymore..
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.19 23:24:00 -
[303]
Originally by: DarkElf
Originally by: Spacehulk
In response to a few of the above posts :
Originally by: DarkElf
ppl have got used to being able to warp right on top of a target and scram and perma jam them and be safe. that's not how it's supposed to be. warp in at range like jammers are designed for and most of the time ur safe.
A jammer should not be close to a target. I never was unless they warp next to me. Remember we are support.
you just repeated exactly what i said in case u didn't realise. my point was that jammers are a ranged weapon and they should be used at range because u are support and u can'tbe so easily killed by most ships if ur 80km out.
DE
Aye...
However as we all know this is not always an option.
Also...
I have often had to act as cover for my (mostly) short rng gangs vs snipers. Jamming (especially battleship targets, which is what most snipers are) at 200km and above was preety difficult even with good skills. Right now i dare not try it. :)
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Alchimista
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Posted - 2006.12.21 18:54:00 -
[304]
Remove ECM and give to those caldari craping ships different bonuses, or boost those jamm!!!
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Maxamus Rex
Caldari
Nevada Space Salvage
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Posted - 2006.12.21 20:19:00 -
[305]
I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story.
Millions for defence not one penny in trubute |
Caztra Tor
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Posted - 2006.12.21 23:03:00 -
[306]
/signed in agreement w/ op
With all due respect, CCP you could at least give us our freaking points spent on specializing in the now krap EW skills. Thank you for your time, I hate wasting mine.
Caztra Tor
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Alchimista
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Posted - 2006.12.22 11:31:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Maxamus Rex
I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story.
As you said, yuo dont know what we are talking about....
we are talking about caldari dedicated ships, not thorax or something else that have differet bonuses, can make damage and tank, but just the so called "dedicated" ships.
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.22 11:40:00 -
[308]
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 22/12/2006 11:39:49
Originally by: Maxamus Rex
I do not know what you guys are talking about ecm is nerf'ed to hard. last night 2 thorax's jammed my drake and had me locked down, lucky for me they could not break my tank and i pounded them with fof's till they warped off but that is an other story.
Are you sure they were using ECM? A lot of people including many of my own gangs have turned to using excessive amounts of dampeners  . The effect is quite similar.
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Crimpp
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Posted - 2006.12.22 15:02:00 -
[309]
All that needs to be said has been said.
(Just keeping this on the front page....)
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.22 17:54:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Crimpp
All that needs to be said has been said.
(Just keeping this on the front page....)
And still no dev love for us... or even a compasionate pat on the back... or ruthless stare..
We are indeed doomed. 
Btw i want a "doomed" smiley. Could we get that please?
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Tollpan
Caldari
The X-Trading Company
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.24 22:21:00 -
[311]
CCP should adjust the bonuses of the ew-ships or they can remove them from the game completely, because right now they are totally useless.
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- nihil magis stimulans quam successus - |
Lunanie
Final-Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.12.26 00:21:00 -
[312]
The idea was good.... no ECM domi's anymore but now all Caldari ECM ships are kinda useless 
Plz give Caldari pilots a compensation for the skills or fix it because it's not even funny how useless ECM ships are now.
No tank and if it loses 1 cycle against multiple ships (or even 1) it's going down before u can say "wtf".
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Kamikaaazi
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Posted - 2006.12.26 00:27:00 -
[313]
i self destructed my scorpions just to get my insurance money back. Too bad i cant do that with my rook/falcon...
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Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.12.27 20:02:00 -
[314]
When looking at low slot jamming enhancers variations, tech II is listed, does it exist ingame?
Not that it does any good to fly a ship without lowslots, but I'd like to know anyway.
____________________
A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Alchimista
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Posted - 2006.12.28 13:49:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Sorja
When looking at low slot jamming enhancers variations, tech II is listed, does it exist ingame?
Not that it does any good to fly a ship without lowslots, but I'd like to know anyway.
AFAIK they exist, but still not on commerce....anyways they will come to cost more than the ship they are going to fit, so prolly useless. 
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Takahashi Chiaki
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.28 14:11:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Alchimista
AFAIK they exist, but still not on commerce....anyways they will come to cost more than the ship they are going to fit, so prolly useless.
Signal Distortion Amplifier II - 6M.
quite affordable, imho..
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DarkElf
Caldari
DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts
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Posted - 2006.12.28 14:15:00 -
[317]
ok i don't see the problem with ecm tbh guys. i just fought 2 scorps and a raven in my domi with twin conjunctive eccm on. Both scorp pilots were only about a year old and they still got quite a few cycles on me. i found out from their loot and killmails  that they were only using multis. there is no way that they should jam me that much with multis if i'm sacrificing 2 of my mid slots to counter them. yes all 3 died but the fight took 9 dam minutes because i was jammed so much.
i'm sure i'm gonna get attacked by ecm uses for saying this but it seemed pretty good still to me.
ps they both had 4 hypnos sig amps in lows (which all 8 went frickin pop  ) maybe that's what made them decent.
DE
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:33:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 28/12/2006 23:34:33
Originally by: DarkElf
ok i don't see the problem with ecm tbh guys. i just fought 2 scorps and a raven in my domi with twin conjunctive eccm on. Both scorp pilots were only about a year old and they still got quite a few cycles on me. i found out from their loot and killmails that they were only using multis. there is no way that they should jam me that much with multis if i'm sacrificing 2 of my mid slots to counter them. yes all 3 died but the fight took 9 dam minutes because i was jammed so much.
i'm sure i'm gonna get attacked by ecm uses for saying this but it seemed pretty good still to me.
ps they both had 4 hypnos sig amps in lows (which all 8 went frickin pop ) maybe that's what made them decent.
DE
I hope you didnt fight them solo.
If so how on earth is this considered balanced. 3bs(1 year old players, 2 tier1,1 tier2 bs, 2 of these ecm ships) vs 1bs(tier1 bs) and you manage to kill at least 2 of them...
And people say ECM is overpowered even....
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:46:00 -
[319]
Edited by: Aramendel on 28/12/2006 23:47:17
Maybe you missed that he had 2* ECCM fitted. It was an anti-setup.
If a blastermega encounters 3 sniper-rohks at point blank range those rohks will die, too. That does hardly make sniper BSs obsolete/weak. It just means that there are ways to counter them.
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Majin82
Caldari
g guild
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:51:00 -
[320]
I found a new use for the scorpion!
Since I wasted all that time training ECM and wasyed money on Top end Named Mutli's and Race ECM I decided that the scorpion needed a new role!
We all know it has a sad damage output and the tank can be crazy so I though about what it could do now. I give you the silly...
Nos-ion support ship!
6 x Heavy Nos
2 x Invul.
2 x LSE
1 x MWD
1 x XL SB
1 x Web
1 x Scram
This ship is more useful then I thought it would be. I have used it to help me Corp mates out. I move in to range, Nos away, and lock down, while everyone else drops down the death on the target.
While I admit it's a silly setup it at least gives the scorp a job again!
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Proud member of G Guild! |
Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:51:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 28/12/2006 23:47:17
Maybe you missed that he had 2* ECCM fitted. It was an anti-setup.
If a blastermega encounters 3 sniper-rohks at point blank range those rohks will die, too. That does hardly make sniper BSs obsolete/weak. It just means that there are ways to counter them.
Wait a minute are you saying ECCM acutally works? ECCM not working was one of the main reasons for the ECM nerf in the first place... Even after the ECCM buff people were crying it does nothing...
BTW... I know it works... However i find it funny people are realizing this only now that ECM is worthless.
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Zed Nash
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Posted - 2006.12.29 18:05:00 -
[322]
11 pages of "OMG ECM IS NERFED!!!!" but I have yet to see any definitive testing.
As a chance-based system, you will get failures regardless of skills, accept it. Heck, you can even get a solid string of failures on a perfectly functioning chance-based system.
Using one example of a failed jam as an example of a broken chance-based system isn't exactly definitive proof. All examples brought to this thread are "one time........." which doesn't make for a very compelling arguement.
Has anyone EXTENSIVELY tested ECM since the patch?
By "extensively" I mean:
1. Tested successes for racial ECM against same-race ships over multiple engagements, not 1 or 2 but more like 40 or 50, for a base success rate on racials?
2. Tested successes for multispec ECM against a wide range of ships over mutliple engagements, again not 1 or 2, for a base success rate on multispecs?
3. Tested again with 1, 2 and 3 lowslot mods again over multiple engagements to determine exactly how they affect success percentages?
4. Tested yet AGAIN with ECM rigs again over mutliple engagements to determine how they affect base success percentages?
5. Tested another time with ECCM to determine how they affect success rates overall?
This is how you get a dev response, numbers and definitive proof. Not crying and whining and just simply stating it's nerfed because "one time............"
I've seen very few numbers in all 11 pages of this thread, and the only ones bringing them are those who say THEY ARE FINE, says something.
I don't have an opinion, but if you're going to state things are broken, back it up or shut up.
"Maya Rkell is my online stalker." |
Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 18:23:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Zed Nash
11 pages of "OMG ECM IS NERFED!!!!" but I have yet to see any definitive testing.
As a chance-based system, you will get failures regardless of skills, accept it. Heck, you can even get a solid string of failures on a perfectly functioning chance-based system.
Using one example of a failed jam as an example of a broken chance-based system isn't exactly definitive proof. All examples brought to this thread are "one time........." which doesn't make for a very compelling arguement.
Has anyone EXTENSIVELY tested ECM since the patch?
By "extensively" I mean:
1. Tested successes for racial ECM against same-race ships over multiple engagements, not 1 or 2 but more like 40 or 50, for a base success rate on racials?
2. Tested successes for multispec ECM against a wide range of ships over mutliple engagements, again not 1 or 2, for a base success rate on multispecs?
3. Tested again with 1, 2 and 3 lowslot mods again over multiple engagements to determine exactly how they affect success percentages?
4. Tested yet AGAIN with ECM rigs again over mutliple engagements to determine how they affect base success percentages?
5. Tested another time with ECCM to determine how they affect success rates overall?
This is how you get a dev response, numbers and definitive proof. Not crying and whining and just simply stating it's nerfed because "one time............"
I've seen very few numbers in all 11 pages of this thread, and the only ones bringing them are those who say THEY ARE FINE, says something.
I don't have an opinion, but if you're going to state things are broken, back it up or shut up.
Is this really nessecary? I was under the impression we knew how the ECM random enginge works.
This formula is used:
A / B = D
(100)D = E
A = ECM jamming strength for the intended sensor type
B = The target ships Sensor strength
D = Unfinal decimal of success
E = 100 times D, which will show you the final percentage.
Meaning E will the chance you have of jamming a specific ship.
Example against an Apocalypse:
6 radar jamming strength / 20 sensor strength on the apoc = .3
100 * .3 = 30
This means a 30% chance to jam the apoc per ECM with a strenght of 6(multispec ECM with good skills and on a dedicated ECM ship - pre KALI).
If you are using multiple jammers on a single target we have the wonderfull world of mathematics to help us out yet again:
Chance_to_jam = {1-[(1-E1)*(1-E2)*...*(1-En)]}*100
With Ez, E2... En being each of your jammers' chance to jam the ship.
If all your jammers are equal, E1=E2=En, of course, and the formula is:
Chance_to_jam = {1-[(1-E)^n]}*100
n being your number of jammers on the target.
Example 1:
ECM1=30%
ECM2=40%
Chance_to_jam = 1 - [(1-0.30)*(1-0.40)] =1 - [0.70*0.60] = 58% chance to jam.
Example 2, lets look at the supposed Megatron vs 4 jammers in unskilled hands:
4 jammers, all the same, E=22.8%
{1 - [(1-0.228)^4]}*100 = {1 - [0.772^4|}*100 = {1 - 0.355}*100 = 64.5% chance to jam.
Bear in mind the values used are pre kali and on ECM ships.
I really dont see the need for specific testing. As a an ex ECM ship pilot i have done plenty of proper combat testing and it seems to conform to these formulas. If i run the maths now i get numbers which are just not worth using.
And no... I wont calculate it for you. I dont feel like doing it right now. I have already written an extensive guide for prekali ECM, complete with statistics, tests and such and dont feel like writing another one now that i no longer use ECM. If you wish i can make my original guide available.
The formulas used above are not originally mine they were ripped form a a different poster on a different forum which would, i suspect, rather remain anonymous.
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Zed Nash
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Posted - 2006.12.29 18:45:00 -
[324]
Edited by: Zed Nash on 29/12/2006 18:45:40
Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan
Bear in mind the values used are pre kali and on ECM ships.
Pre-Kali..........
So folks who feel it's broken have the math, they can now gather the numbers post-Kali to show that ECM is not viable, or viable depending on the outcome.
Like I said, I don't have an opinion either way. I don't fly ECM ships (SD guy here, Gal specialized), but they're definately an interesting course I've been considering. I would like to know if those who feel it's not worth flying can back it up, especially given the current anti-hype surrounding them, underestimation is a valuable asset in the field.
If we know that only 1 in 8 jams is successful on average (as an example), through extended testing, then we know for a fact, undisputably, that the system is not viable and should be looked into. If 1 in 2, then we know the system is immensly valuable and shouldn't be overlooked.
Chance-based systems work on the law of averages, using an isolated example of a string of failures isn't proof the system is broken, just that you had bad luck.
"Maya Rkell is my online stalker." |
Judge Glar
Minmatar
Fallen Angel's
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.29 22:37:00 -
[325]
Yeah. I think ewar is broken too. With a black bird using multis and 50% ewar skills, I have about a 13% chance per jammer to lock out a Raven.
Notwithstanding, I just jammed a Raven 4 out of 4 times using only two cheezy multis. I fit 4 x sensor damper and 2 x multi. If the multi's hit, it's icing.
Would be nice to use dedicated ewar tho. Fitting 6 multis on blackbird guarantees nothing other than that you will be called primary.
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Trillian Mcmillan
Cry Me A River Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.31 14:20:00 -
[326]
Another thread reminded me to point this out.
How many ECM ships have you seen in battle since Kali 1?
Please remeber that not every time you see the "jamming bar" and lose lock its due to ECM. Sensor dampeners have exactly the same effect if they are used properly.
I am an active pvper. Since Kali i remeber fighting exactly one ECM ship.
This was a Rook and happened just a few days after the patch. The word fightign here being used in the most broad possible prespective since the gang which included it outnumbered and out gunned us badly so we ran like hell :). No killmails were created in the encounter.
Since that rook i dont remeber seeing a single ECM ship on scanner (barring a couple of, presumably, mission running, tanked to hell Scorps) let alone fighting one.
I remeber fighting a Drake which fitted a single multispec. This was a guy we probed out on a mission earlyer that day and when he came back to do another mission he had that silly module fitted. In an attempt to fend us off should he probed again, i guess. He avoided death by paying the ransom when he was in structure...
I took two of my own scorps fitted with ECM to a suicide attacks on other pirates to have some fun and get insurance. Of course the suicide was more than just sucsefull (they did have carp fittings i admit, as i was taking them out to lose them).
So...
Since Kali i have seen:
1 rook which was acutally used to pvp
a couple of scorps which were likely running missions and likely didnt have any ECM fitted at all. Mind you i have never managed to probe a scorp since Kali so i havent actually seen them any closer than my scanner screen.
2 ECM Scorps which went out with the specific intent to die in combat and were piloted by myself.
I have no idea in how many battles i participated in since the patch, not every battle results in a killmail and its certainly not always me who gets the killmail, but i have counted 36 killmails which were mailed to me since the Kali patch.
Is that a good statistic for showing that ECM ships have been overnerfed?
PS
For any of you wise asses out there. I have preformed ECM dedicated ship tests since kali in simualted battles vs alts and corp mates to confirm my opinion that it wasnt worth it anymore. I am not including these in numbers above for obvious reasons.
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Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.12.31 16:27:00 -
[327]
I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec
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Cache Clearer |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.31 17:09:00 -
[328]
Originally by: HIdden Canary
Tuxford said in a blog once Quote:
"In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships. They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down"
Fair enough you sacrifice tank for jammers but when a dedicated ECM ship in new kali cant even jam a Vaga (strenght 14) with 6 multi specs and all its lows full of signal amps (hypnos) and battleship 5 makes me wonder..
Tuxford said the problem was tanking and jamming together which is fair enough but instead you made jammers weak even on the ship thats specialiszed in it and taken there tank away meaning a failed jam will happen and you die. the scorpion has little damge output anyways and now has the same bonuses as a Cruiser (blackbird) whats that about?
Its supposted to be Quote:
the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match.
but in reality it has no DPS and at this point it cant even jam a Cruiser with 6 multis or tank :P ... ???
Why bother fitting 6 multi ecms when you can fit 6 damps and damp anything down to pretty much zero with 100% chance of success?
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Mr Vrix
Pegasus Mining and Securities
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.12.31 17:49:00 -
[329]
How about if...
They made,
Nos a random cyle affair?
SD`s a randon cycle affair?
Warp scrambling a random cycle affair?
Webbing a random cycle affair?
TD a random cycle affair?
Target painters a random cycle affair?
Get the picture?
I fly 90% Caldari. 100% of the time I used to fit EW. Now I tend to mix it up with dampeners,EW and TD`s.
When I fly through a gate camp, why shouldn`t that scrambler be random? Why shouldn`t that bubble someone set at the gate to catch people be random?
When in a fight, why does NOS always work?
If you applied the same logic to all of the above, as they have to EW the game as we know it would be totally about chance. Not the skills that people have trained long and hard for.
I agree totally, that in a Scorp, I should not be able to hold down 4,5,6 or more BS`s, regardless of my skills,fittings. I should not be able to change the outcome of any engagement totally by messing with this many BS`s, But I should be able to guarantee that any ship I am asked to jam, unless has counter measures, is done correctly.
With the changes to WCS`s, anyone that is fitting them for PvP is putting themselfs in a huge huge disadantage. So we have scrambling almost a certain bet now. ( ok not 100%, but almost). Imagine if that was also random? Doesn`t quite sit straight does it?
So, we all agree that EW was overpowered before, and the majority that use Caldari ships, know we have been kicked in the teeth a little.
What I would like to see is, no other ships but caldari can even fit EW. maybe along the lines of the manticore, not enough grid to fit a CM launcher, but due to bonus it can.Keep the bonus`s as they are already to the mods. Remove the random chance of jamming, and lower ships Jam strength significantly. A Scorp should perma jam a frig, almost always jam a cruiser, and with enough fittings can jam a BS. NOT 5 or 6 as it was before. But heck, in a fleet fight should be able to lock down 1 or 2 for the duration.
This will of course not sit well with many, as they want to fly their frigs/cruisers around, 100% being able to web,scramble,nos,TD,TP without any hinderance to themselves.
Scorp is weak both in dps and tanking, thats the risk we take for flying the best ship in the game for EW, just now needs arranging so it IS the best in game.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.31 17:53:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Grez
I've read over most of this thread, and it just seems like a lot of you just want to be able to perminantly jam one ship with one racial or multispec
No, I just want to jam something vaguely reliably if I use 6 of them on my falcon.
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