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Osiris Occido The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:28:00 - [241] This ECM nerf was long overdue. The less jamming I see, the better. But keeping my opinions to myself, as a case in point to the OP, my vaga two days ago in an op had no problem being jammed multiple times by a hostile scorpion. TSBS Video Vault [35] \| Perfect Quality with WMM
Alchimista	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:32:00 - [242] Edited by: Alchimista on 13/12/2006 18:32:43 If ECMs are so hated by a large part of the community, than take them off and give different bonuses on those (now) useless caldari ships!! But if you think to leave them......BOOST THOSE CRAPING SHIPS!!!
CleverPenguin Caldari VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:11:00 - [243] For the what i wasted too much time and learned rook? Now my rook < pre-revelations scorpion. Ugly jamm, no dps and tank. _________________________________________________________
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.14 14:12:00 - [244] Rook is the only remaining ECM ship which is capable of even remotely relibaly doing its job... Its a sad state of affairs.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.14 14:57:00 - [245] Edited by: DarkElf on 14/12/2006 15:00:49 ECM is overpowered. nerf it! just fill ur lows with sig amps multis are really powerful scorps are a solopwnmobile now rooks can perma jam 10 battleships DarkElf dives under the table for cover DE
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.14 16:41:00 - [246] Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 14/12/2006 15:00:49 ECM is overpowered. nerf it! just fill ur lows with sig amps multis are really powerful scorps are a solopwnmobile now rooks can perma jam 10 battleships DarkElf dives under the table for cover DE Thanks for the bump DE Come on Tuxford - give us a reply!!! Stein gets out broom and starts sweeping under the table whilst permajamming 15 BS's in his Griffin Not.
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:38:00 - [247] Come on give us a offical reply!!! because as it stands ECM ship aint work buying or flyin
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:41:00 - [248] Originally by: Commander Wingpop Come on give us a offical reply!!! because as it stands ECM ship aint work buying or flyin I believe lack of response is answer enough, no? We are doomed.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:59:00 - [249] Agreed. IMO Scorps Rooks and Falcons weren't overpowered pre-kali. Now I've parked mine, pending a review. Seriously, in fleet, scorps were helpful, but not overpoweringly so. Always primary is more because they'd die early, and hampered your firepower. Smaller blobs, they were again, not too bad, but ... well other ships were often higher on the priority list, and you only really take 'em out because ravens suck for some engagement types. Falcon suffers from 'covert ops' syndrome - expensive and die when decloaked. Marginally more useful for jamming, but really only marginally. Rooks, are better for small gang than a scorp, but ... well all the other recons were probably better choices... All in all, not especially overpowering even before the bat came around. GOod at their role, yes, but so severely hampered because of that that were only 'reasonable' rather than 'solopwnmobile'. The bonuses really could do with doubling again for scorp and falcon. Probably BB and griffin too. Maybe only +10% on the rook though.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:06:00 - [250] Originally by: XGS Crimson So basicly.. your saying if i train up for.. lets say an I-Win domi.. then they nerf my I-Win domi that makes it unfair because i put all that time in for my I-Win ship? Thats like saying.. oh its not fair that he gets an air rifle and i get a mini gun.. now im only aloud to use a pistol.. IT STILL WINS.. ECM was.. and potentialy is way overpowerd i mean c'mon one ship able to completly remove a Dreadnoughts ability to lock and shoot? or 5 ships at once?.. you talk as if its the end of EVE as we know it.. yet you don't seem to relise that not being able to tank is one thing but when you use ECM and that effectivly tanks your entire fleet then it's another matter... why the hell should one ship be able to perma disable another? The thing is, that was _all_ an 'ECM specialised' ship could do. I know of examples where haulers have tanked a scorp for the 15km to get to jump range - I have a kestrel that does more DPS than my scorp does, albeit at a somewhat shorter range. I never really saw that as overpowered, especially with other options, and a (fairly reasonable) chance their jamming would fail. It's sad, but my fleet scorp's getting fitted with RSDs - at least with those I know I'll have an impact on the fight, and they've _always_ been able to lock down a ship. Now, I think that the number of ECMs on 'non ECM' ships was getting silly, but I never really saw the problems with the 'ECM ships'. Positive sacrifice for the gain and all. Even when tanked on all 4 slots, the scorp still goes down hard. (And really, those lows are for sensor backups and signal amplifiers and _maybe_ a damage control or a plate) shrug never mind, I have a rohk to fly in fleet, and a Drake for smaller skimishes. RIP Scorp.

Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:37:00 - [251] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:39:45 Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:37:18 Oh dear, this chance based system somewhat sucks (nothing new, I know). Yesterday, we had a nice engagement but due to some misapprehension we had no Amarr-jammers in gang. But guess what? I jammed a Damnation with Ion II and a Geddon with Phase II. But I couldn't jam a Dominix with 2x Ion II all the time. Scorpion with SDA I with less strength then pre-Kali. Some days ago I couldn't even jam a bloody Thorax with 2x Ion II until it went down (no ECCM fitted). Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. -- Boost ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
k1Lz Delta team Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.15 11:21:00 - [252] Give Scorp the bonuses from rook for jaming i meen, and let every thing how it is now...
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:12:00 - [253] It's a shame, I started to really like the Scorp and it got changed. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Cyriac Keddah Caldari Frontline Defense Force Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.16 02:46:00 - [254] Originally by: Tanya Kovacs Oh dear, this chance based system somewhat sucks (nothing new, I know). Yesterday, we had a nice engagement but due to some misapprehension we had no Amarr-jammers in gang. But guess what? I jammed a Damnation with Ion II and a Geddon with Phase II. But I couldn't jam a Dominix with 2x Ion II all the time. ugh Scorpion with SDA I with less strength then pre-Kali. Some days ago I couldn't even jam a bloody Thorax with 2x Ion II until it went down (no ECCM fitted). Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. Agreed, a non-random system is needed. As it stands ECM is to big a gamble to risk ships bigger than a T1 cruiser over. There is no way to craft a reliable, predictable strategy around ECM as there is around other EWAR. (For instance: RSDs work great if you can keep range, so you can craft a strategy around that, and you know that if you can't keep range you need to bug out.) ECM might work in any situation, but not reliably. And thus it is impossible to strategize around it's use. I'm not saying it should work in every situation, but ECM pilots need to be able to recognize the situations where it fails. Make ECM predictable, even if it means making it weaker. Of course I would prefer it if you made it stronger
Nordvargr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.16 05:36:00 - [255] Originally by: Tanya Kovacs Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 15/12/2006 09:39:45 Seriously CCP - please think about the whole concept and bring something logical and balanced (well I still believe there can be some balance and not the usual "overpowered then nerfed to stoneage"-thing) with Kali 4 which stops the "I don't want to fit ECCM but ECM is h4x!"-whining but makes the whole jamming thing transparent to everybody. :( And still: it would be nice to read a devblog about this. That's not really a fair comparison between other EW at all. People fit tracking computers because they are useful, and they also happen to counteract tracking disruptors. Likewise, people fit sensor boosters because they are useful, and they also work as a counter to sensor damps. ECCM does nothing on it's own, there is no incentive to fit it other than specifically countering ECM. Other EW ships will encounter some ships that happen to have modules that counter their EW, without the pilot fitting specifically to counter that type of EW. ECM does not deal with that, ECM users do not have to look to see if a ship has sensor boosters activated, or wonder if they are packing a web. And there's a huge problem with ECM working indefinitely. The ship cannot fire back, and there is nothing they can do to prevent this. Sensor damps are contingent on range, if you cannot keep that range the ship is able to shoot you. A sensor damping ship will still have to stand clear of web range of most ships, and this itself has a lot of rammifications. On top of that, ships that are inside the damped locking range are still perfectly vulnerable, just because the EW ship is at range doesn't mean tacklers are safe. Tracking disruptors don't completely take out a ships offensive capabilities either. A person can choose to move away from their target, effectively decreasing the transversal and making something trackable again, or a ranged ship can move closer until it gets into its optimal range again. All ships are still able to use drones, NOS, missiles, and EW of their own when they are tracking disrupted, it affects only turret based guns not the ships ability to fight back. But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out.
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.16 06:17:00 - [256] Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass
Spacehulk Caldari Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.16 08:16:00 - [257] ECM is overpowering before Revelations if a really small gang came against another small gang with a jammer or a fleet came against another fleet with annoying number of jammers. Thats just the way ECM should work. 2 gangs of 1 jammer in each and 1 damage dealer is a balanced fight where skills and luck on who jams first has the "upper" hand. 2 gangs where 1 has a jammer and a damage dealer and the other have 2 damage dealers .. Duh .. The jammer gang SHOULD win. Its common sense and thats what happens in real life combat. 2 gangs with damage dealers only is a fair fight where, again, skills and luck have a factor. Where the heck was ECM unbalanced and over powered except when damage dealer ships could install jammers and be "jam specialists and damage specialists" .... Bring back ECM to where it was and if we have to sacrifice tankability then we should have the choice of increasing Jam strength further or tank. Breaking something doesn't fix it.
Nordvargr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.16 08:44:00 - [258] Originally by: HIdden Canary Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass So ECM should be buffed until a scorpion can jam an entire fleet so it wont die? The fact that scorpions are always first primaries says ECM is overpowered. If ECM were nerfed into oblivion and wasn't actually a threat, FCs would be calling damage dealers primaries, but ECM still pulls more weight in a battle so the ECM boats are targeted first.
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:15:00 - [259] Originally by: Nordvargr Originally by: HIdden Canary Quote: But ECM? The ship can't target, at all, and nothing they do can stop that. Tacklers can come up and web the target and it is unable to lift a finger. If ECM works 100% of the time then the jammed target has NO options. So when a jam cycle fails, the first thing your target will do is shoot at the ECM boat because that is the ONLY thing they can do to counter ECM, kill the ECM user when they have a chance, if they get a chance. Or at least force the ECM user to warp out. But nos on a Curse does the same on certain ships .. no cap means no shooting back, webbing or scrams ! and all thos who say ECM was overpowered try sitting in a ecm ship in a fleet engagement and see if you could jam all that lock you first before you die cause i assure you even before kali scorps died first real fast !! and now even faster because they cant jam to save there ass So ECM should be buffed until a scorpion can jam an entire fleet so it wont die? The fact that scorpions are always first primaries says ECM is overpowered. If ECM were nerfed into oblivion and wasn't actually a threat, FCs would be calling damage dealers primaries, but ECM still pulls more weight in a battle so the ECM boats are targeted first. Scorpions are primary coz ECM is chance based, so a scorpion "might" jam upto 7 ships "if" it gets lucky. Its not because ECM is overpowered. People dont want to take a risk so they eliminate the "potential" threat. Get rid of the chance based system, with current jamming strength, nobody would call scorpion primary. ______________________________________________________________
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:52:00 - [260] They're primary in a fleet, because they _might_ put 6 ships out of the fight for 20s before they die. Realistically, it's more like 2, and far more often than I like none at all. Anything smaller than a fleet, and you're just going to die, as even one BS that's not jammed and you'll be dead before your next cycle. 1v1 (which do occasionally happen) you do have a reasonable chance of maintaining a jam. 4 5 jammers is about a 70% chance of jamming a battleship. Even if you do though, you're not actually killing your opponent, as they slowboat to the nearest gate or station. And then your 70% fails, and you die.

ObiAliKonobi mUfFiN fAcToRy Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.16 13:44:00 - [261] They nerfed ecm ? Oh my that is tragic. I am lost for words whatever shall we do.
Altai Saker Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.16 14:34:00 - [262] Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done http://www.omniscient-order.com/
Commander Wingpop Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.16 18:16:00 - [263] ITs funny you can always tell who doesnt fly ecm ships ! Quote: Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... has anyone ever thought that ecm isnt the problem, i mean look at it this way a scorp couldnt take another bs on its own or it would take days ... its the ships or friends the scorp has that takes you down , yeah your jammed for 20s (maybe) enough friends would kill any ship in that! but scorpion on its own wouldnt ! all eves turning in to is tank and gank, its not tactics anymore its who has the most friends and best tank! ecm played a vital part of tactics before kali i mean how many of you while scanning out a fleet saw a scorp in the fleet and then thought twice about it ! or getting a scorp on your side to counter it! Quote: They're primary in a fleet, because they _might_ put 6 ships out of the fight for 20s before they die. Realistically, it's more like 2, and far more often than I like none at all. as any fleet commander knows when you call out a primary its usally jammers first or damage dealers! and look at how fast a scorp would drop pre kali and now look at it ! Ecm needs sorting i my self fly many ships and since kalis launch havent undocked a dedicated ECM ship once ! just because the scorp couldnt jam when its life depended on it !
Crimpp	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:48:00 - [264] CCP.....Re-do EW from the ground up. Make it 'on par' with the rest of EvE. The complexity, the depth, the complete lack of guess work.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:51:00 - [265] Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Pfft, hardly. I fly scorps because they're interesting, not because they're effective. Oh, and they're not bad at getting on killmails because they 'shoot at' a lot of different targets. ECM was overpowered, because everyone was fitting them. Of those though, seriously, how often did you see a scorpion, rook or falcon, or even a griffin? BBs sometimes, but primarily because there weren't really any other 'useful' caldari PvP cruisers. When a mod is overpowered, it shows up on lots and lots of ships. Fine, ECM fits that bill. ECM specialised ships are good at only one thing - their damage output is poor, their tank is rubbish. And now they're even worse than they were. A 4 slots armour tank on a scorpion was never really a threat to anything (and of course, I still assert that at least 2 of those should have been for sensor backups and signal amps). I don't think ECM _specialised_ ships were all that potent anyway - even before the swing of the nerfbat, my scorp had a hard time holding it's own against another BS. It's singular advantage was that it had a chance of jamming ceptors and warping off if things went badly wrong. Well, that and 8 mids is interesting. Scorps used to be a 'sometimes I-win' button, which IMO was reasonable. Now they're 'sometimes I don't get totally owned' ships, that are getting fit with remote sensor dampeners rather than ECMs.
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:01:00 - [266] I guess the question is... Does CCP want a multi-layered, textured games with different options of game-play style for its subscribers? Or does it want a game wholly focussed about battleship versus battleship... At the moment it is clearly only a battleship v battleship game... With the current setup for ECM, the only way I will risk all that expensive equipment on my ecm dedicated ships is if they hugely boost their tank. I succeed with high skills only once every four cycles in a jam. But I can die in one cycle. Would any HAC pilot put up with only hitting their target once in four attempts, but can pop in one? If you're not going to boost ECM, give me a chance like any other t2 cruiser (HAC) to stay in the field a bit longer... give me a tank. Yes, I can fit a tank to these ships. IF I DON'T FIT THE PRIMARY SYSTEM OF THESE SHIPS - ECM!!!! And my t1 cruiser has higer DPS... Until then, I'll continue flying boring "boom - boom" ships until I get sick of it... hopefully by then, there'll be a new option to switch to before I switch off...
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:31:00 - [267] Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Right. Now imagine Noses being nerfed so badly they are only really usefull on the Curse, and even then its debatable. Yes the Pilgrim would have trouble using them too. So much fun, right?
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:43:00 - [268] Edited by: DarkElf on 17/12/2006 12:47:40 Originally by: DuPuy Or does it want a game wholly focussed about battleship versus battleship... At the moment it is clearly only a battleship v battleship game... That is such a load of bull. this game is in no way focussed on bs. in fect all the recons,hacs etc have very powerful weapons and can solo most bs in different ways. bs are being used less and less. yeah ecm does seem broken and no matter how happy it makes me, it does need sorting but don't exaggerate. DE
Sally Caldari R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.17 13:01:00 - [269] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Originally by: Altai Saker Sounds like a lot of people that got used to ecm being the I-Win button, now that its the I-Sometimes-Win button they are whining... Gratz Tux, work well done Right. Now imagine Noses being nerfed so badly they are only really usefull on the Curse, and even then its debatable. Yes the Pilgrim would have trouble using them too. So much fun, right? Nope, but its not the case either. Compare the usefullness and power of ECM to the power of tracking disrupters, dampeners, or (my god!) target painters. See the trend? Before Kali ECM was greatly overpowered compared to other types of EW - no question. Now ECM is just somewhat better in most cases. And dont tell us the tales about how ECM ships are useless. Answer just 1 question: what gang will win in fair fight: 3 megathrons + 1 Scorpion or 4 megathrons? I think the answer is pretty obvious for anyone with a clue. -- Stories: #1 --
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.17 13:19:00 - [270] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 17/12/2006 13:19:52 Originally by: Sally Nope, but its not the case either. Compare the usefullness and power of ECM to the power of tracking disrupters, dampeners, or (my god!) target painters. See the trend? Before Kali ECM was greatly overpowered compared to other types of EW - no question. Now ECM is just somewhat better in most cases. And dont tell us the tales about how ECM ships are useless. Answer just 1 question: what gang will win in fair fight: 3 megathrons + 1 Scorpion or 4 megathrons? I think the answer is pretty obvious for anyone with a clue. Not very constructive of me but... You dont fly these ships do you? As in skilled for them and use them often.



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