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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1757
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 01:57:46 -
[1291] - Quote
If something has been removed by a moderator I've always seen a post by them talking about why. |

Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
201
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 10:02:09 -
[1292] - Quote
Trepalluim wrote:
I apreciate the effort however i'm looking slightly deeper than that. Going from clone A to clone B Now requires one to leave it's current body behind (read install a new jump clone). That may require the skill or destroy the body i'm leaving behind. There is still the intra-citadel jump case.. timer or not .
so for these new clones states i'm reading if the skill allows it, i can use it.
regardless of what skills one has or doesnt, i'm still curious on that implant / training speed topic since if i drop sub to train "insert race my original race" for free, it will be faster to do so if i have implants, i'm not going to list the situations this can happend in. I'm bringing it up since this is a feedback thread.
Well, alphas are limited to just hop back to the med clone so JCs are not an option and yes, you are likely intended to loose the +5imps if you try. CCP doesn't want to make it cosy for Omegas to hop back and skill for free on alpha. And IMHO anything limited to the alpha skills should not be running around with +5imps. IMHO working as intended. The only use for alphas for someone with a Omega clone would be free skilling for another account that will be later plexed cause even a max skilled Alpha is more or less useless for things you need a second account for. They will most likely limit the amount of alphas logged in simultaneously to stop scouting with alpha fleets.
|

Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 10:48:30 -
[1293] - Quote
Good thing we have http://www.eve-search.com/thread/491738-1/page/42
If you compare the thread before and after the "cleanup" you can not tell me that the posts have not been removed selectively.
Let-¦s compare take a closer look at the timestamps here.
EF = Eve forums ; ES = eve Search
2016-09-06 09:04:16 - EF #1223 = ES post #1231 (Rogasus Hakuli)
2016.09.06 09:51:09 - removed post = Eve-search post #1232 ( Carniflex)
2016-09-06 10:56:19 - EF post #1224 = ES post #1233 (Rogasus Hakuli)
2016.09.06 11:36:49 - EF post #1225 = ES post #1234 (Naomi Felclaw)
2016-09-06 11:44:37 - EF post #1226 = ES post #1235 (March rabbit)
2016.09.06 12:55:26 - removed post = ES post #1236 (Carniflex)
2016.09.06 13:15:45 - removed post = ES post #1237 (posted by Daylan Vokan - quoting post #1236)
2016.09.06 13:25:15 - removed post = ES post #1238 (posted by Carniflex - quoting #1236 & # 1237)
2016.09.06 13:43:04 - removed post = ES post #1239 (by Daylan Vokan)
2016-09-06 14:12:33 - EF post #1227 = ES post #1240 (by Daylan Vokan)
2016.09.06 14:23:22 - removed post = ES post #1241 (by Carniflex)
2016-09-06 14:26:27 - EF post #1228 = ES post #1242 (Carniflex)
2016.09.06 14:33:35 - EF post #1229 = ES post #1243 (Daylan Vokan)
2016.09.06 15:04:57 - removed post = ES post #1244 2016.09.06 15:04:57 (Jessica Starblaze)
2016.09.06 15:37:39 - removed post = ES post #1245 2016.09.06 15:37:39 (Daylan Vokan)
2016-09-06 16:01:37 - EF post #1230 = ES post #1246 (March rabbit)
.....
And it keeps going like that. Now tell me that does not look like posts being removed selectively. |

Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
379
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 10:54:08 -
[1294] - Quote
Well - seems like the 2 pages of discussion has been truly lost from this thread without a trace (other than eve search). Lets see if it vanishes again if I repost the summary of it. I will not speculate in these posts if the previous ones going missing were deliberate act or not.
These posts are, in essence a follow up for posts #1063, #1064 and #1065 in the present thread where in a nutshell I was arguing in favor of giving Alphas only access to T1 frigates but without skill caps as opposed to the current plan in the devblog where the access is up to cruiser size T1 hulls with racial lock and significant level caps on accessible skills.
The numbers: - the "75 mil SP ballpark" is a theoretical unrestricted Alpha with every single skill at level 5 that is even remotely relevant to flying a frigate sized hull with T2 fit except cyno, cloak and e-war skills except point. Without racial restriction so all 4 races trained to the max.
In that scenario the SP distribution would be roughly following: Armor - 4,86 mil SP Drones - 12,54 mil SP Electronic Systems - 0,8 mil SP Engineering - 6,54 mil SP Gunnery - 9,86 mil SP Missiles - 7,65 mil SP Navigation - 4,1 mil SP Rigging - 7,42 mil SP Scanning - 7,2 mil SP Shields - 5,55 mil SP Spaceship command - 2,8 mil SP Targeting - 3,8 mil SP
Total - 73,14 mil SP.
Rounded up to 75 mil SP to account some prerequisites and skills not relevant to flying a frigate sized hull, like Science 4, etc. Adding larger hulls, if deemed necessary somewhere down the road would not change the total SP significantly as it is basically the full list that is relevant for flying a subcapital ship. Just throw in medium guns and drones if adding cruisers and thats it.
I'll leave this time aside the arguments about "fairness" (as the philosophical deliberations on the pay-to-win vs free-to-play are already well discussed in the remaining thread) and focus on technical details and problems pointed in the lost two pages of discussion.
(1) Why would anyone subscribe at all if he could use a 75 mil SP Alpha clone? Having max relevant skills for a T1 frigate hull would still leave in place quite significant restrictions on the pilot capabilities and roles he/she can fulfill. There would be basically no access to industry other than very basic capabilities, no access to large number of market orders or contracts and above all even in the "frigate" niche there would be still quite a number of things worthy of subscription - most prominent among these ofc the T2 hulls and cloaks. For mining - barges are still a LOT better than even a max skilled venture could be (approx 500 m3/min vs 1000+ m3/minute for barge). For exploration - T2 hulls are still significantly enough better at probing. That said the Alphas would be still within spitting distance of Omegas by having a possibility of paying the premium for pirate/faction hulls to compete with T2 ships in the frigate specific content.
(2) SP "farming" and extractors. In thew original discussion which was lost there was no solution offered for that point before these two last pages vanished. My solution - if technically feasible - would be to keep track of what amount of SP has been trained in Alpha state for a specific skill and not allow extraction of SP that has been accumulated during free-to-play periods. For example, Alpha clone has trained "Advanced Weapon Upgrades" up to 200 000 SP. Sometime later when in Omega state he has trained the skill up to level 5 but has decided that he does not need that skill after all and wants to cash out the SP invested in that skill. However, when using the extractor on that skill he can drop it as low as 200 000 SP and not an SP more, because that is the amount that has been trained in "free to play" regime. If keeping track of "free" SP on a individual skill basis is technically not feasible a bit simpler solution would be just to keep track of character total SP which has been added wile the clone is in Alpha state and not allow skill extraction to drop the character under that SP level. Another possibility to make it more inconvenient to "farm" SP on alpha accounts would be adding a requirement that any skill in the skill que must start during the next 24h, meaning that one can not just throw in 5 year training plan but has to remember to log in every once in a while to start another skill.
(3) Injectors and Alphas. Current Alphas as proposed can use them and I honestly do not see a problem if the "unrestricted" Alphas could as well. Every time a injector is extracted CCP gets its cut as somewhere, someone, has spent the real money to make that possible. Yes, that would mean that a fresh dude could push his character up to approx 75 mil and play free forever if he is happy with T1 frigate specific content and the restrictions do not bother him. I am not particularly worried about the servers capability to take the load, to be honest. EVE is huge and we are quite far from the record numbers we have seen in the past simultaneously logged in. That kind of pilots would be minority - probably most of them would be anyway high SP Omegas that have dropped into Alpha state for time being. I.e, they would have already spent about 600 $/EUR on the game to be sitting on that amount of SP assuming quite focused build specific for flying sub-capitals at max level.
to be continued ...
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK!
GOT the bastard.
|

Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
379
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 10:55:15 -
[1295] - Quote
... continiued
(4) Training speed. Alphas have reduced base training rate even in the current proposal and I honestly do not have issue with that. thanx to the EVE market a fresh Alpha can, in theory, catch up with older pilots SP wise without spending real money by grinding up and buying injectors. Similar point could be made about the fact that most of the ship hulls in EVE would be locked for the Alphas - in theory they could grind out enough for a PLEX and unlock all the possible hulls in the game for themselves without spending the real life money in person. In my opinion the most optimal training speed model would be linear training speed pentaly as a function of SP starting at 100% speed at 400 000 SP and reaching 25% training speed at 30 mil SP. The exact numbers and turning points are not as important but that would make it possible to train the basic skills at relatively good speeds while significantly delaying the capability of Alpha to reach the max theoretical SP cap without doing something that gives CCP some income. By the 30 mil SP when the training speed would be about quarter of an Omega account the injectors should be looking quite lucrative for the free-to-play Alpha account for taking the standard free-to-play style shortcut by changing their grind for the money someone else has spent to create that injector.
(5) Why only frigates? Would it not be worse than having access to the heavily restricted cruisers as it is in the current plan by CCP? My argument is that over the recent years CCP has fleshed out the frigate specific content quite well - there are frigate specifc PvP options (FW, frig wormholes, etc) and well as PvE (smaller anoms, L4 burners, frig wormholes, etc). Many of these have specific restrictions that prevent larger hulls come and ruin the party giving the free players a specific niche where they can feel they can be the best (potentially) even as a free to play account. Yes - no T2 hulls and excluding of some modules gives a certain disadvantages but by spending more resources the can attain the similar power levels by using pirate hulls and shinier fits. The key reason for such a heavy restrictions - as far as I understand CCP argument - is to avoid potential shocks in EVE economy. In my opinion starting with with only frigates (but without fitting handicaps present in the original devblog) would be as safe, in essence, as with handicapped cruisers if not even a bit safer. Only existing Omegas would have, in essence, the "full" SP Alphas at the start while the rest of new Alphas would start at rather modest power levels - at the higher end an unrestricted pirate frigate with pimp fit has comparable dps to the restricted cruiser hulls. That would give CCP more time to monitor the change and unlock the larger hulls when deemed that the situation is safe enough for that. In addition what it would allow them to do, in essence, would be sending all the Alphas that did try it but went away for whatever reason an e-mail telling them that oh look wow, we added larger hull to the Alpha access roster! Possibly motivating them to log in again and try EVE again.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK!
GOT the bastard.
|

MrQuisno
SteelandFire Blacksmithing
7
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 13:19:48 -
[1296] - Quote
To not have the system get abused from lots of alts being made up. Their should be a one time charge for all new accounts made. Also the alpha state clones should not be allowed on the test server. Limit the log on mount to 2 accounts only. :) |

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 13:29:51 -
[1297] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:... continiued
(4) Training speed. Alphas have reduced base training rate even in the current proposal and I honestly do not have issue with that. thanx to the EVE market a fresh Alpha can, in theory, catch up with older pilots SP wise without spending real money by grinding up and buying injectors. Similar point could be made about the fact that most of the ship hulls in EVE would be locked for the Alphas - in theory they could grind out enough for a PLEX and unlock all the possible hulls in the game for themselves without spending the real life money in person. In my opinion the most optimal training speed model would be linear training speed pentaly as a function of SP starting at 100% speed at 400 000 SP and reaching 25% training speed at 30 mil SP. The exact numbers and turning points are not as important but that would make it possible to train the basic skills at relatively good speeds while significantly delaying the capability of Alpha to reach the max theoretical SP cap without doing something that gives CCP some income. By the 30 mil SP when the training speed would be about quarter of an Omega account the injectors should be looking quite lucrative for the free-to-play Alpha account for taking the standard free-to-play style shortcut by changing their grind for the money someone else has spent to create that injector.
(5) Why only frigates? Would it not be worse than having access to the heavily restricted cruisers as it is in the current plan by CCP? My argument is that over the recent years CCP has fleshed out the frigate specific content quite well - there are frigate specifc PvP options (FW, frig wormholes, etc) and well as PvE (smaller anoms, L4 burners, frig wormholes, etc). Many of these have specific restrictions that prevent larger hulls come and ruin the party giving the free players a specific niche where they can feel they can be the best (potentially) even as a free to play account. Yes - no T2 hulls and excluding of some modules gives a certain disadvantages but by spending more resources the can attain the similar power levels by using pirate hulls and shinier fits. The key reason for such a heavy restrictions - as far as I understand CCP argument - is to avoid potential shocks in EVE economy. In my opinion starting with with only frigates (but without fitting handicaps present in the original devblog) would be as safe, in essence, as with handicapped cruisers if not even a bit safer. Only existing Omegas would have, in essence, the "full" SP Alphas at the start while the rest of new Alphas would start at rather modest power levels - at the higher end an unrestricted pirate frigate with pimp fit has comparable dps to the restricted cruiser hulls. That would give CCP more time to monitor the change and unlock the larger hulls when deemed that the situation is safe enough for that. In addition what it would allow them to do, in essence, would be sending all the Alphas that did try it but went away for whatever reason an e-mail telling them that oh look wow, we added larger hull to the Alpha access roster! Possibly motivating them to log in again and try EVE again. I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.
This is done very quickly: 3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage Fed navy AB CN Med shield ext Stasis and scram II DCU II FN DDA
CDFE II Anti EM II Anti Therm II
Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.
You think this wont be a problem. |

Anthar Thebess
1632
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 13:41:26 -
[1298] - Quote
How people can abuse alfa clones in WH : Plan is simple, put alfa clone in every WH and be able to monitor activity in this WH. Now it is not about putting every WH we got, but people want to do it for all profitable. C5-C6
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
|

Mikka johna Caboose
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 14:35:23 -
[1299] - Quote
Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status I've a friend that is potentially in that situation |

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 14:48:19 -
[1300] - Quote
Mikka johna Caboose wrote:Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status I've a friend that is potentially in that situation Q: What happens if my subscription ends while I'm logged in, will I be converted to Alpha in the middle of a fight?
A: In these cases, you will remain an Omega until the next time you log out. We won't ever turn skills off during the middle of a session. |
|

Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
379
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 15:30:48 -
[1301] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote: I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.
This is done very quickly: 3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage Fed navy AB CN Med shield ext Stasis and scram II DCU II FN DDA
CDFE II Anti EM II Anti Therm II
Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.
Speed 1100ms 9-11k ehp Easy to switch damaged types.
You think this wont be a problem.
Yes. That would indeed be a possibility and I personally do not see a huge problem with that for following reasons: (1) high price - while I do not consider price a balancing factor (and neither do devs as far as I have seen) it is also not irrelevant thing either in everyday life of EVE, (2) the numbers are comparable to the current very restricted Alpha capabilities with the cruisers, (3) the setup has vulnerabilities which can be used to counter it with similar numbers but a bit cheaper fits for the pvp purposes, most notable ofc the ability to kill some drones and/or severy limit their effectivity by outrunning the worms and/or its drones, (4) if talking about my initial three post wall of text proposal specifically these worms would be unable to assign drones so it is not possible to easily abuse that swarm by running multiple clients simultaneously and have one or two "triggers" directing all that dps in half automated way. Ofc my initial proposal also consisted a suggestion to limit Alphas to max two simultaneous accounts logged in at the same time, if technically feasible. As far as I understand the dev answers here and elsewhere there might be some technical difficulties with that one though.
Actually this example worm fit is a very good example, in my opinion, why an unrestricted T1 frigate limited Alpha would be OK. It is actually competitive with T2 AF fits in some scenarios which is exactly one of the points I have been driving for. An AF fit that is comparable in its capabilities is somewhat cheaper than the reasonably pimp pirate hull, meaning that the Omega has advantage - because he has to grind for less time for achieving that than Alpha but Alpha can get close enough to have a good possibility of winning the engagement just at the greater time (grind) investment.
I believe such a worm fit would be fun to fly for Alphas. They would win some engagements, there is a significant amount of grind-time on line for them so they would probably get pretty good adrenaline rush out of it and if that is what they are after they would get hooked in EVE. A fast combat with small ships is one of the best things the EVE can offer for a pilot trying out EVE. There is A LOT of pilot individual skill involved, meaning a lot of potential to "git guud", the pilot can in general pick his/her engagements and is slippery enough to escape if Omegas bring overwhelming force while the setup has enough bite to punish anyone who thinks "lol its just dozen frigates".
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK!
GOT the bastard.
|

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 15:45:46 -
[1302] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.
This is done very quickly: 3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage Fed navy AB CN Med shield ext Stasis and scram II DCU II FN DDA
CDFE II Anti EM II Anti Therm II
Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.
Speed 1100ms 9-11k ehp Easy to switch damaged types.
You think this wont be a problem.
Yes. That would indeed be a possibility and I personally do not see a huge problem with that for following reasons: (1) high price - while I do not consider price a balancing factor (and neither do devs as far as I have seen) it is also not irrelevant thing either in everyday life of EVE, (2) the numbers are comparable to the current very restricted Alpha capabilities with the cruisers, (3) the setup has vulnerabilities which can be used to counter it with similar numbers but a bit cheaper fits for the pvp purposes, most notable ofc the ability to kill some drones and/or severy limit their effectivity by outrunning the worms and/or its drones, (4) if talking about my initial three post wall of text proposal specifically these worms would be unable to assign drones so it is not possible to easily abuse that swarm by running multiple clients simultaneously and have one or two "triggers" directing all that dps in half automated way. Ofc my initial proposal also consisted a suggestion to limit Alphas to max two simultaneous accounts logged in at the same time, if technically feasible. As far as I understand the dev answers here and elsewhere there might be some technical difficulties with that one though. Actually this example worm fit is a very good example, in my opinion, why an unrestricted T1 frigate limited Alpha would be OK. It is actually competitive with T2 AF fits in some scenarios which is exactly one of the points I have been driving for. An AF fit that is comparable in its capabilities is somewhat cheaper than the reasonably pimp pirate hull, meaning that the Omega has advantage - because he has to grind for less time for achieving that than Alpha but Alpha can get close enough to have a good possibility of winning the engagement just at the greater time (grind) investment. I believe such a worm fit would be fun to fly for Alphas. They would win some engagements, there is a significant amount of grind-time on line for them so they would probably get pretty good adrenaline rush out of it and if that is what they are after they would get hooked in EVE. A fast combat with small ships is one of the best things the EVE can offer for a pilot trying out EVE. There is A LOT of pilot individual skill involved, meaning a lot of potential to "git guud", the pilot can in general pick his/her engagements and is slippery enough to escape if Omegas bring overwhelming force while the setup has enough bite to punish anyone who thinks "lol its just dozen frigates". I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.
Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat. |

Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
379
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 16:10:12 -
[1303] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote: I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.
Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat.
Yes. The reason why I believe this would be fine is that in my opinion the theoretical possibility of reaching such levels would draw in more fresh players than the number of current Omegas un-subbing because they could have as much fun as they currently do if the T1 frigates could be piloted, in essence, unrestricted. The core point of my entire proposal is that being able to have "as much fun" as Omega can in a given niche (which is a frigate specific content in EVE) is better for player retention and for luring in new players than the current heavily limited hulls up to cruiser size with a racial lock for a character starter race.
Such a theoretical 15 man roam would be an outstanding success of the whole system!
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK!
GOT the bastard.
|

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 16:29:03 -
[1304] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.
Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat.
Yes. The reason why I believe this would be fine is that in my opinion the theoretical possibility of reaching such levels would draw in more fresh players than the number of current Omegas un-subbing because they could have as much fun as they currently do if the T1 frigates could be piloted, in essence, unrestricted. The core point of my entire proposal is that being able to have "as much fun" as Omega can in a given niche (which is a frigate specific content in EVE) is better for player retention and for luring in new players than the current heavily limited hulls up to cruiser size with a racial lock for a character starter race. Such a theoretical 15 man roam would be an outstanding success of the whole system! We seem to be poles apart on how to allure new players into subbing here, the discussion was fun though  |

Josef Djugashvilis
3454
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 18:20:05 -
[1305] - Quote
Cash for skills was mainly used by vets to dump unwanted skill points and did not lead to any great influx of new players, perhaps the idea of paying a sub then needing to fork out extra cash for skills did not have that much appeal to new players.
Who'd a thunk it?
If cash for skills had been successful CCP would not be offering this ham-strung version of 'free to play'
If 'inadequate' skill points are seen as the main sticking point for new players who want to experience all that that the game has to offer, then why not take the radical step of giving all players all the skill points?
This would change the game from a 'time-cash-sink' into one where player ingenuity is the primary skill.
We are on that slippery slope anyway, so for Pete's sake just get on with it.
The constant whittling away of the original game ethos is just annoying.
CCP cut to the end game and just do it!
This is not a signature.
|

Hiro Mune
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 20:10:52 -
[1306] - Quote
So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game! |

Mikka johna Caboose
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 21:09:38 -
[1307] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Mikka johna Caboose wrote:Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status I've a friend that is potentially in that situation Q: What happens if my subscription ends while I'm logged in, will I be converted to Alpha in the middle of a fight? A: In these cases, you will remain an Omega until the next time you log out. We won't ever turn skills off during the middle of a session.
Thanks much appreciated  |

Onkel Fysen
Celestial Tranquility
4
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 21:39:36 -
[1308] - Quote
I surely welcome a F2P-model in EVE like this to expand the playerbase, but please don't allow multiboxing at all. Multiboxing is the most damaging problem to the PVP model in this game already. The PVP-model is heart-racing as it is without everyone having to multibox to take part in small gang PVP. |

Soltys
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.09.08 22:27:03 -
[1309] - Quote
Hiro Mune wrote:So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!
Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...).
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|

Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
379
|
Posted - 2016.09.09 03:52:29 -
[1310] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Hiro Mune wrote:So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game! Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...).
Current subscribers would find uses for Alphas even if all they could do would be flying a shuttle and talking in local ;)
I just do not believe that what is currently on table for Alphas makes the genuinely fresh pilots to stay much longer than the longest done trials would (I.e., a bit above 50 days). At the very minimum the racial restriction should be lifted. Or CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do"
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK!
GOT the bastard.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5215
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Posted - 2016.09.09 04:35:45 -
[1311] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:Soltys wrote:Hiro Mune wrote:So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game! Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...). Current subscribers would find uses for Alphas even if all they could do would be flying a shuttle and talking in local ;) I just do not believe that what is currently on table for Alphas makes the genuinely fresh pilots to stay much longer than the longest done trials would (I.e., a bit above 50 days). At the very minimum the racial restriction should be lifted. Or CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do"
What the Hell, they can always sub too ya know.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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MrQuisno
SteelandFire Blacksmithing
7
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Posted - 2016.09.09 05:06:37 -
[1312] - Quote
The idea is great here! But their should be a one time set up fee for all new accounts made. If you want to run about with more then 2 free accounts you should have to pay a extra pilot license. |

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2016.09.09 07:16:28 -
[1313] - Quote
Hiro Mune wrote:So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!
So according to you the first 6 months you subscribe now you can't do much as you dont have the skills, access to the right modules and standing to do anything worth while, must be sad that the only way you can to anything is in an officer fit faction hull    |

Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
202
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Posted - 2016.09.09 07:28:55 -
[1314] - Quote
It's telling that there are 2 dev-Blog in a row. Alpha/Omega and the end of exe-login. If there is no exe-login you can easily restrict a comp to JUST launch an Alpha and nothing else. This wouldn't hamper new players in any way and kill tons of abuses by vets. |

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2836
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Posted - 2016.09.09 07:54:24 -
[1315] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:It's telling that there are 2 dev-Blog in a row. Alpha/Omega and the end of exe-login. If there is no exe-login you can easily restrict a comp to JUST launch an Alpha and nothing else. This wouldn't hamper new players in any way and kill tons of abuses by vets. People use multiple PCs (physical or virtual). They need to do more (if possible) ... the "it is possible with trials today argument" is void here, because Alphas don't expire and are much more valuable to rectify the effort.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1886
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Posted - 2016.09.09 09:52:04 -
[1316] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:March rabbit wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So...you place a bounty on me, right? What is to stop me (the player) from having my alt scan my character's ship, shoot me and collect the bounty? What about system where bounty owner has to manually approve each payment? Let's say i put bounty on someone. This sets flag (visible to anyone). Then when somebody presses the button and kills the target i get notification with killmail. Then i enter amount and press button and send ISK or don't. And let's say people can see history of bounty contracts created by me (it can be made anonymous but linked to the character) with information about every bounty contract offered and killmails paid or not. This allows me to check whether killmail looks legit or not. At least i can try to detect usage of alt. This gives possible contractor to check whether previous bounties were paid or not and decide if kill worth effort. Additionally this gives some protection from overinflated module/ship prices and gives overall control over the system to players. I see killmail value but i always can check real market price and set bounty accordingly. And if i'm greedy then in future i can find none of my contracts taken. Thoughts? So, I as an actual bounty hunter can expect to get screwed on a regular basis. If you blindly take any bounty contract yes, you will end like any client of ISK doublers. However system provides you with some means to protect yourself. And it provides owner of bounty contract with some means to protect himself from alt-killing too.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Daylan Vokan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2016.09.09 09:58:49 -
[1317] - Quote
Carniflex wrote: CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do" Or they think wow this is cool, If i sub i get access to everything and those shiny faction hulls to, You know the way it's designed to work to lure people in.
Doesn't matter how you try and not sugar coat something, Its designed for new players and not to entice already subbed to add copious amounts of alts in game. |

March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1886
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Posted - 2016.09.09 11:28:25 -
[1318] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:What the Hell, they can always sub too ya know. They cannot (that's the main selling point of whole Alpha idea). Else we would not have this discussion.
Daylan Vokan wrote:Hiro Mune wrote:So essentially:
You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...
Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game! So according to you the first 6 months you subscribe now you can't do much as you dont have the skills, access to the right modules and standing to do anything worth while, must be sad that the only way you can to anything is in an officer fit faction hull    Well.. It's CCP who removed learning skills (and set SP accumulation to maximum speed for everyone), it's CCP who increased training speed for starters, it's CCP who increased basic SP amount for starters, it's CCP who created special implants for starters....
Do you really think it was done because 'player can play right from the start' and not 'sit and wait for SPs'?
AFAIK it is general idea between CCP and players these days that the game is 'literally unplayable' without lots of SP.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Egsise
POS Party Ember Sands
7
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Posted - 2016.09.09 14:11:01 -
[1319] - Quote
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills. That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today. When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level, and they could never catch those who have started earlier.
Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.
I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing. I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time. The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.
If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now, well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.
You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s). You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either. |

Ginger Naari
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2016.09.09 18:58:18 -
[1320] - Quote
Egsise wrote:I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills. That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today. When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level, and they could never catch those who have started earlier.
Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.
I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing. I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time. The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.
If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now, well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.
You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s). You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.
I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer...
I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts)
If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years?
Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction.
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