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Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.30 15:27:00 - [151] Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. The thing discussed here is suicide gankers though, bumping doesnt have a lot to do with it, they will just warpscram the freighter on the other side.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.30 15:50:00 - [152] I never really could figure out why large industrial ships are sparse on slots. I mean...You're a massive ship that requires to do nothing more than move cargo and so therefor you should have all the powergrid and CPU you need to fit all kinda things in mids and lows.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:31:00 - [153] Originally by: Mighty Dread I never really could figure out why large industrial ships are sparse on slots. I mean...You're a massive ship that requires to do nothing more than move cargo and so therefor you should have all the powergrid and CPU you need to fit all kinda things in mids and lows. Um, because they're full of empty space for that cargo
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:42:00 - [154] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. The thing discussed here is suicide gankers though, bumping doesnt have a lot to do with it, they will just warpscram the freighter on the other side. thats alright - if the newb cant get a scout then its his own fault for dying but if the webbing is used and the bumping is fixed then the scout will find the awaiting force - and if its "out of scan range" it wont be able to get there in time.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:19:00 - [155] Bumping should be fixed, that's pretty obvious. Having a shuttle bump a huge ship like a freighter out of alignment is like expecting your rowboat to knock an oil tanker off course. What I want to know is: Why FFS isn't the freighter immune to EW just as all the other cap ships are? You shouldn't be able to scramble them anyway, any more than you can scramble a carrier. --
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:23:00 - [156] Originally by: Drizit What I want to know is: Why FFS isn't the freighter immune to EW just as all the other cap ships are? You shouldn't be able to scramble them anyway, any more than you can scramble a carrier. Carriers can be scrambled.... Only Supercaps are EW immune.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:24:00 - [157] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? No, Jenny Spitfire never had a vagabond bpo - little known secret I sold her some gila BPCs a few weeks before she left and I asked her if she could make me one cheap. She said not to tell anyone (but since she's left...) but she never had a BPO. After that I watched her posts very clearly. She never actually states "I have a vagabond bpo". She always defended tech 2 BPO owners, but she never stated that she had one. People assumed and the replies were always "well it's ok for you to say that, because you have a vaga bpo" (or along those lines). She did nothing to deny it, but she never actually stated it either. whoever this character that controls the Jenny Spitfire character, they've ruined it. She stated it quite a few times actually. With the first post on the subject from her being: 'I now have a Vagabond BPO' (not an exact quote) well I'll admit I've not read all of her posts. But no, she didn't have one. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot. Nice Isk. I'll take it.
Hashi Lebwohl Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:59:00 - [158] I can only assume that freighters vulnerability is by design. When making the change so that they drop loot, CCP did not: 1) make cargo scanning a hostile act 2) remove Insurance for Concord deaths 3) stop the practice of bumping 4) give freighters any slots or rigs 5) fixed the drones continuing to stop firing Or anything else that would allow a metagame to exist - you see a freighter and you know pretty much all its strengths and weaknesses - the rest is maths and a bit of practice on the test server. As no sensible in-game response is available the lateral thinking freighter pilot needs to take advantage of CCP's weakness in database overload in high occupancy systems. Namely, the freighter pilot needs to take literally thousands of items with them - empty out that hangar with npc low stuff, use all those bookmarks you'll never use again etc and fill a freighter can with it. Why? 1) When someone cargo scans you he'll lag out completely as the server tries to send him details of thousands of items; 2) If they pop you there is a tiny chance that of the 50% that drops anything good will be amoungst it; 3) That number of items suddenly being available in space is going to be unfriendly on the node - already taxed as it will be by Concord it has just spawn for your killers - I suspect that CCP it this case would have a routine to truncate the number of items dropped (like they do for kill mails) meaning that the chance the the good stuff survives is even smaller. So the freigher can - your insurance package (or should I say payload).
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:11:00 - [159] The playerbase who still do not believe that freighters should have some defensive slots, let me tell you a fairy tale. It's called the "Ganker's new ship". A long time ago, two Devs met an eVe ganker and asked him what he wanted. The ganker said, he wanted a new ship. The Devs told the ganker, they would made him a new 5000 m3 ship and it would be the best combat ship ever. But the ganker would have to work with the Devs at every development stage of the new ship. Every time the ganker tried out the new ship, he couldn't F1, F2, F3, ... and kill his target. He went back to the Devs and complained that his ship couldn't pew pew. The Devs told him, that was impossible and when he did F1, F2, F3, ... his target instantaneously obliterated. What he saw was just lag because the ship was no longer there. The ganker said, "Crikey!" At the second testing, the ganker did the same thing and the two Devs told him, the target got popped. It went on until the new ship was released to the ganker. The ganker was so happy and went to grief a hauler. When he tried to F1, F2, F3, ... he found himself in a new clone because the hauler pewed pewed on him. The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:51:00 - [160] First off, Attacking an UNARMED ship is not PVP it's ganking. Pretending that your a PVPer does not make you one, actualy every real PVP should be taking offence at this. And yes tankers and even vacation cruse liners do arm them selves in RL so the not armed bit doesnt hold water. Also anyone that played any other space based games (freelancer) knows that not only are the freighters armed but heavly armored, they are also by design very hard to sink unless you have a critical structural falure a freighter could loose half of it's compartments and still remain a float, IE: a space freighter, because of it's compartments, can loose up to half it's stucture and still fly. If you can fit 8 hight slots on a destroyer you can on a freighter. Actually there is no reasion why a freighter does not have 3,5,8 slots. So the low slots can be expanders, reps, armor or bulkheads or dare I say Overdrives. Keep in mind that everything you add reflects on the speed and handeling of the freighter. Adding expanders slows the ship as does armor and bulkheads. Adding overdrives will speed up the ship at the cost of cargo space. Why can you have a shield on everything from a frig to a titan but not on a freighter? also Turrets are externally mounted, what you cant find room on a freighter to mount one? And WTH is there no drone bay, what no room avalible? So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, Heck I would have no prob even allowing the freighter to mount a Miner II if they wanted, since the only way to add cargo is at stations. OH,,, maybe they would mount remote reps and armor/shield rep drones and follow a group in to DS areas. Sure some people who forget that it would be usless, may try it once... Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:25:00 - [161] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire No argument what so ever. So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal First off, Attacking an UNARMED ship is not PVP it's ganking. Pretending that your a PVPer does not make you one, actualy every real PVP should be taking offence at this. It's PvP because it's a question of competition between players. Saying it's not PvP is pretty silly tbh. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal And yes tankers and even vacation cruse liners do arm them selves in RL so the not armed bit doesnt hold water. You know, I've worked at a cruise liner so I know how they arm themselves. We had a bunch of guns locked away and a few water-cannons (yeah) for use on the potential pirates. Thing is, it was pretty much stated that we where to cooperate with the pirates and not defend ourselves, so the weapons where mostly for show. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Also anyone that played any other space based games (freelancer) knows that not only are the freighters armed but heavly armored, they are also by design very hard to sink unless you have a critical structural falure a freighter could loose half of it's compartments and still remain a float, IE: a space freighter, because of it's compartments, can loose up to half it's stucture and still fly. Welcome to EvE, the game that is not in any way affiliated with Freelancer. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal If you can fit 8 hight slots on a destroyer you can on a freighter. Actually there is no reasion why a freighter does not have 3,5,8 slots. So the low slots can be expanders, reps, armor or bulkheads or dare I say Overdrives. Keep in mind that everything you add reflects on the speed and handeling of the freighter. Adding expanders slows the ship as does armor and bulkheads. Adding overdrives will speed up the ship at the cost of cargo space. It's a balance issue, can't you see that? You get insane amounts of cargo space. The trade off is that you can't defend yourself, but must rely on others to do that for you. Give a freighter slots and you'll have a majorly imbalanced creation. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Why can you have a shield on everything from a frig to a titan but not on a freighter? also Turrets are externally mounted, what you cant find room on a freighter to mount one? Again, balance. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal And WTH is there no drone bay, what no room avalible? I hate to repeat myself. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Heck I would have no prob even allowing the freighter to mount a Miner II if they wanted, since the only way to add cargo is at stations. OH,,, maybe they would mount remote reps and armor/shield rep drones and follow a group in to DS areas. Sure some people who forget that it would be usless, may try it once... Surely you can see a problem with a freighter that could be used for mining? I mean, seriously... No, I'll give you an F and ask you to try again. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:29:00 - [162] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? Are you going to shoot back at ONE ship, and not even kill it? Are you going to jam ONE ship, while 39 others shoot at you? ECM Burst in empire? Concord will just join in with killing you if you hit anything other than a hostile ship with it. Smartbombs? Same thing. Armor reps are basically useless against that firepower. Same with shield reps. That's providing you even have any capacitor to use them, which 40 ships with nos will have no problem handling. The ONLY module which may help you is a damage control module, but then we're talking about a seriously overpowered defensive setup if you suddenly need to do a quarter million damage to destroy a freighter. Oh wait, you don't want fair defenses. You want invulnerability.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:31:00 - [163] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:34:00 - [164] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. Freighters have a great defense - Concord. When is the last time you saw a freighter that was actually in a corp that was wardecable? Now shooting at something that can't defend itself is not my cup of tea. Give them defenses,weapons and then make them unflyable if you are in an NPC corp.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:34:00 - [165] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. You may read my posts for my arguments. I don't see them as broken. You do. I respect your opinion although I think it's wrong. I don't think you're deluding yourself. I just think you're wrong. You're attitude of "anyone who disagrees with me must be less intelligent" is pretty annoying. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:36:00 - [166] Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:37:00 - [167] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:38:00 - [168] Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:35:06 Originally by: Siege Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we? Nono, she's worried that someone may be able to organize 30 'griefers', and they most likely will now that she's painted a big fat target on herself /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:35:06 Originally by: Siege Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we? Nono, she's worried that someone may be able to organize 30 'griefers', and they most likely will now that she's painted a big fat target on herself /Ki Quite true, I still have yet to see anybody in this thread admit to having lost a freighter yet. Typical crying about a POTENTIAL situation that may occur a couple times a week among a player base of 150,000.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:45:00 - [170] Originally by: Ki An You may read my posts for my arguments. I don't see them as broken. You do. I respect your opinion although I think it's wrong. I don't think you're deluding yourself. I just think you're wrong. You're attitude of "anyone who disagrees with me must be less intelligent" is pretty annoying. /Ki And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Slash Harnet Minmatar Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:45:00 - [171] Originally by: SiJira - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction Bumping is the largest exploit that isn't an exploit IMO. Fixing that would solve a ton of problems, including the freighter issue. signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:48:00 - [172] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:52:00 - [173] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:48:46 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki At least my toon is much older than yours so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they will never have any slot at all! --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:53:00 - [174] Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:49:18 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire At least my toon is much older than yous so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they should never have any slot at all! Lol... I think your toon is older than you, tbh /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Wyehr Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:04:00 - [175] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I've also done the web thing and while helpful it is not a sure thing to survive a suicide gank. Don't forget they will be scramming you too. While CONCORD will jam them and stop that they can hold you long enough. The video I saw on a suicide gank of a freighter the freighter went down in 12 seconds. Heck, have a few people in newbie frig with a scram on them added to your gang. Have them cycle a scram once each second on the freighter. Lag and CONCORD response time will not prevent the freighter from being scrammed till it is dead. I'm sick of the 12 second thing. It took at least 33 seconds to pop the freighter in Outbreak's Karma video. [ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:50:00 - [176] Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. Actually it'd be more like firing a baseball out of a cannon into a linebacker. Sure that linebacker's big, but that baseball's moving fast and he's going to get move by the impact. Also, if they fix physics, then the first thing I'm doing, is getting this char into a Caldari BS, loading it up with mods and a MWD, and ramming my main's pod a few dozen times. Then he'll have a nice Safespot a few million AU away.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:02:00 - [177] Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, Mining? Yes, fit cargo expanders and you never have to worry about using cans, ever. You can get over 80,000m3 on a revelation with 8 t2 expanders and cargo rigs. Gate Camping? See below. PvP? Oh absolutely. Lets not forget that a Capital can do what no BS or CS can do: Tank concord, kill them, then dock. CCP expressly do not want capitals in highsec. I know for a fact that only Chribba's Revelation, and another player's Phoenix in Sobaseki, are the only two exceptions orginally, however a few groups took advantage of a flaw in the highsec POSes and chruned out quite a few more highsec capships, every last one of them should be put into lowsec. MAYBE spare Chribba and the Phoenix. Now, try to grasp this: no slots, no dronebay, if you have slots and dronebay, you lose god knows how much space from the ship that has to go to systems and equipment used with those slots and bays. If ANY slot is ever given to a freighter it should lose atleast 25% of the cargo hold. You can then fit an expander, or a DCU (or whatever). IF you don't like it, ohwell. Freighters are going to be big, slow, and juicy targets, suicide ganking will only go away when CCP either sells out, or sells EVE to someone else.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:05:00 - [178] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:06:00 - [179] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. How much ISK are you willing to lose on that bet?
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:10:00 - [180] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:48:46 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki At least my toon is much older than yours so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they will never have any slot at all! 1. Your character age means nothing. 2. You are not bugs bunny or Courage the Cowardly Dog (might be wrong on this one), you are not a toon. 3. You will still whine if a dev posts here and tells you they are not broken by design and are meant to have no slots, as they are clearly not meant to have slots, look at their pg and cpu.



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