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Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:20:00 - [1] Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Velsharoon Gallente Endgame.	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:30:00 - [2] Escorts them
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:32:00 - [3] Edited by: ToxicFire on 29/04/2007 12:29:18 Personally I'd settle for a Sheild/Armour HP afforded to capital ships even though a freighter doesn't require it, it still falls into the class of pseudo capital ship. Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them Even in high sec.... yuh right, personally I see suicide ganking as an exploit. Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
Akoudoulos Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:37:00 - [4] Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them and how this can work? 20-30 bs can almost instapop a freighter :) no matter how many escort pilots you have its is impossible to defend the freighter lag+concord does the job
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:44:00 - [5] id gladly do with 8 lows there :p but it'll quickly give insane values ------
Aakron Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:44:00 - [6] Freighters should have fittings for risk/reward allow them to risk fitting nanos etc for faster travel but risk forgoing a damage control/bulkhead that would have saved them from a gank ---
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. How is it "griefing" if a ship gets attacked for loot? That sounds more like "playing EVE".
galadran Caldari The Power of 3	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:00:00 - [8] Griefing Read and learn...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 29/04/2007 13:01:52 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. How is it "griefing" if a ship gets attacked for loot? That sounds more like "playing EVE". One group kills for loot because they think there is loot. One group kills for fun because they can. One group kills because the hate the freighter pilot. Two groups are griefers and one group is not. Majority wins. Ganking freighters in high-sec is griefing. Freighters need medium and low slots badly. Give the little lamb a chance until Concord arrives to help it. When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. Griefers pew pew. Freighter pilots have to enjoy receiving pew pew. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:23:00 - [10] It's not econmic viable to provide escort for most freighters, if my freight move minerals or T1 items the profit is a few per cent of the cargo so i can make 20-40m in a trip that take a couple of hours, but i stand to lose a few billions (ship + cost of items), so if i need escort of 3-4 BS (and i need way more) then the ISK earned devided by the pilots time make no sense from the BS pilot point of view, he can make way more running missions or Ratting. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:26:00 - [11] The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:33:00 - [12] I was thinking of working towards the freighter because of how great it was to see the occasional freighter in Empire a year ago. Now with Privateers and all of the gankers, I won't even attempt to train any more for one. A billion isk investment and you can't rely on Concord to show up in time equals a huge isk sink. I don't know if i would really call it griefing, more like opportunist.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:34:00 - [13] Well, technically they can. Due to concords jamming freighter killsquads have to rely heavily on drones. One single "escort" BS with several large smartbombs could clear the drones pretty fast. A single ECM burst could work as well - afaik if you use those drones effected by it do not autoattack again, but have to be given the attack command to do this. But I am never tested that myself. Downside there is that the escort most likely will attack (or even podkill) some innocent bystanders accidently, so it will pobably get concorded as well. Still 1 ship vs 20 ships.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills for loot because they think there is loot. Not griefing as you said yourself. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills for fun because they can. Let's say for a moment that someone would go through the trouble of suicide ganking a freighter just for kicks, it's still not griefing. It's PvP. The stuff the freighter is carrying could be used to shoot the gankers in the future, or it could fuel the economy of their enemy. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills because the hate the freighter pilot. This isn't griefing either. This is one group getting revenge on someone by playing the game. I would say this is EvE in it's purest form: consequences for previous actions. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ganking freighters in high-sec is griefing. No. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Freighters need medium and low slots badly. Give the little lamb a chance until Concord arrives to help it. The insane amount of hitpoints it has is quite enough. If someone spends the time and resources required to suicide your freighter, they damn well ought to be able to. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. An insured freighter won't cost you billions. If you put billions worth of stuff in it your just plain dumb. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Griefers pew pew. Freighter pilots have to enjoy receiving pew pew. Yes. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:39:00 - [15] I remember when using the G word would get you flamed off the forums, like the noob you were. Good times...
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Aramendel Well, technically they can. Due to concords jamming freighter killsquads have to rely heavily on drones. One single "escort" BS with several large smartbombs could clear the drones pretty fast. A single ECM burst could work as well - afaik if you use those drones effected by it do not autoattack again, but have to be given the attack command to do this. But I am never tested that myself. Downside there is that the escort most likely will attack (or even podkill) some innocent bystanders accidently, so it will pobably get concorded as well. Still 1 ship vs 20 ships. ^^
Arcadia1701 Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:53:00 - [17] Give frighters an HP boost. 50K base armor, 250K base structure. Wouldnt that solve suicide ganking? Whatever vaule is needed to let the freighter last long enough for concord to take everything out. My sig> Post with your main or STFU
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:19:00 - [18] There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years: Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD. It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:32:00 - [19] Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec?
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:37:00 - [20] Edited by: Kahor on 29/04/2007 14:34:32 You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. Also the two case of 'griefers' you showed will be soon broke and back to npcing in 0.0 because of the sec status loss. Also there is a difference between griefing and retaliation, if they hate the player, he must have ***ed them off somehow. Edit : All ships drop loots, there needs no counter to that, your counter to having no slots to fit module is having 900k cargo space. ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip*, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Kahor You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. You can also use that same scout to web yourself and warp faster. Be sure to point out that the scout in question could be a friend or a corp mate, and doesn't have to be an alt, because otherwise the lazy people in this thread will emmediately shout out "meta" in order to bury such an obvious counter. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Pan Crastus There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years: Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD. It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you. Agreed. If people want to suicide gank in hi sec then fine but the economics should be that the gank always costs more than the ship getting ganked. Currently I believe a freighter can be suicide ganked for around 400 million in losses to the attackers. That is versus a 1+ billion ISK ship. When people gripe about Motherships being near unkillable the PvPers usual retort is that a 25 billion ISK ship should be super hard to kill. Fair enough and while 25 billion is a lot more than 1 billion the same idea should apply. So, either stop insurance payouts for deaths by CONCORD or increase the hitpoints of a freighter such that in order to instakill them costs the attackers more than the value of their target (this should be true for any suicide gank be it a shuttle on up). If the freighter is carrying enough of value in its cargo a suicide gank might still be worthwhile but the bar should be raised on whether or not it is worth it. Someone earlier mentioned it was somehow silly to carry cargo worth over a billion. Well, it's a freaking freighter...it is supposed to carry HUGE amounts of cargo and getting a cargo worth over 1 billion ISK is trvially easy. To keep your cargo value below 1 billion is to essentially nerf the usefulness of the freighter. One of the protections freighters had till recently was not only did you need a large attacking force to kill one you needed an army of haulers to carry the loot away. Now freighters can magically loot freighter wrecks (but nothing else ) so again the bar is lowered. I was actually hoping for a story of a freighter gank in Jita (before freighters could loot) and hear of the dogpile of people going after the freighter wreck.
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Kahor Edited by: Kahor on 29/04/2007 14:37:01 You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. You can also use that same scout to web yourself and warp faster. Both are easily coped with by the attackers. 20 Domis need not be on the gate advertising themselves. They can be a few hundred kilometers off an off grid. Leave a few players in shuttles or fast frigs by the gate. Bump freighter (stupidly easy on a freighter) forever till attacking force warps in on you. As for the web trick the freighter still needs to be aligned for that to work and they align painfully slowly. With the above tactic it is a simple matter to hold the freighter right where it is. I suppose we could go back to BMing empire for fast warpout points from every gate but even then you could be bumped out of alignment before your webber gets to you (luck of the draw I guess on whether the webber or bumper is closer to you when the freighter decloaks).
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h If people want to suicide gank in hi sec then fine but the economics should be that the gank always costs more than the ship getting ganked. Currently I believe a freighter can be suicide ganked for around 400 million in losses to the attackers. That is versus a 1+ billion ISK ship. Until recently noone thought anyone would ever suicide a freighter as the cost would be too high. Now we have found out that the rewards are potentially exponential as people fly around with insane sums in their cargo. The solution to the problem is already in the freighter pilot's hands. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h When people gripe about Motherships being near unkillable the PvPers usual retort is that a 25 billion ISK ship should be super hard to kill. Fair enough and while 25 billion is a lot more than 1 billion the same idea should apply. The "PvPers"? I would consider myself a "PvPer" and I hate the fact that motherships are nigh unkillable. Still, it's probably down to my own inadequacies, as several moms have, in fact, been killed. Now, the titan is another story. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h So, either stop insurance payouts for deaths by CONCORD or increase the hitpoints of a freighter such that in order to instakill them costs the attackers more than the value of their target (this should be true for any suicide gank be it a shuttle on up). "Remove insurance" has been shouted for ages, and the couter arguments never seem to disuade the shouters. Things like "accidental death by concord during smartbomb activation in mission", and "overview in mess when shooting WTs in Empire leading to concord wtfbbqing you" seems to not be enough for the "my freighter should be safe in high-sec" crowd. Increasing HPs? You mean they don't have enough? It's simple math really. Say you need 30 domis to take down a freighter in high sec. Those 30 domis with t1 gear would go for, lets say, 40 mil each after insurance. That means it costs 30 x 40 = 1.2 billion to take down a freighter (NOTE: These are not actual figures, but an example). That would mean that you, the freighter pilot, have a cap of around 2 bil which you can put in your freighter and not risk suicide ganking for profit. About half the loot gets destroyed after all. Or, you can just use a scout. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h One of the protections freighters had till recently was not only did you need a large attacking force to kill one you needed an army of haulers to carry the loot away. Now freighters can magically loot freighter wrecks (but nothing else ) so again the bar is lowered. I was actually hoping for a story of a freighter gank in Jita (before freighters could loot) and hear of the dogpile of people going after the freighter wreck. Before freighters didn't drop any loot at all, so I guess that is a trade-off for letting freighters pick up loot now. The bar isn't lowered, as it is only just recently that freighter ganking became potentially profitable. The answer is simple. Learn to play. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:31:00 - [26] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 15:28:03 Originally by: Ki An Until recently noone thought anyone would ever suicide a freighter as the cost would be too high. Now we have found out that the rewards are potentially exponential as people fly around with insane sums in their cargo. The solution to the problem is already in the freighter pilot's hands. The answer is do not use the freighter to do what it is meant to do? Quote: The "PvPers"? I would consider myself a "PvPer" and I hate the fact that motherships are nigh unkillable. Still, it's probably down to my own inadequacies, as several moms have, in fact, been killed. Now, the titan is another story. Titans were being dropped before the first Mom ever bit the dust. Not sure on the current count but it is close. Not many Moms or Titans have gone down. Both are stupidly hard to kill (I agree they should be very hard to kill but when the only reliable means of getting one is to resort to metagaming that is messed up). Quote: "Remove insurance" has been shouted for ages, and the couter arguments never seem to disuade the shouters. Things like "accidental death by concord during smartbomb activation in mission", and "overview in mess when shooting WTs in Empire leading to concord wtfbbqing you" seems to not be enough for the "my freighter should be safe in high-sec" crowd. "Safe" in hi sec is a relative term. I am aware and agree that no place is 100% safe. But they certainly should be safer. Smartbombs in Empire have never been a good idea since, well, forever. You are asking for it if you fit and use them there and can hardly complain when CONCORD nabs you. Overview is a mess? Fix your overview. The answer lies in the attackers hands. Not to mention you should get a warning before attacking an innocent bystander. If you turned that off its your fault. Sure the occasional person will goof and get CONCORDED. But the rules are clear, mechanics exist to help prevent that (warnings you are about to shoot someone you shouldn't) so I find it difficult to see how this is a useful argument. Fact is from any reasonable perspective we all know that collecting insurance after committing a crime is just retarded. If you use your car in a bank robbery and the police smash your car chasing you do you really think your insurance company will payout on that car? (I can guarantee you the answer is no) Quote: Increasing HPs? You mean they don't have enough? It's simple math really. Say you need 30 domis to take down a freighter in high sec. Those 30 domis with t1 gear would go for, lets say, 40 mil each after insurance. That means it costs 30 x 40 = 1.2 billion to take down a freighter (NOTE: These are not actual figures, but an example). That would mean that you, the freighter pilot, have a cap of around 2 bil which you can put in your freighter and not risk suicide ganking for profit. About half the loot gets destroyed after all. Or, you can just use a scout. Actual current math has the number required at around 20-25 Domis and after insurance payout the cost is 300-500 million ISK for the attackers (obviously some variability in there). Hence the current magic number is 1 billion in loot in the freighter which I pointed out is trivially easy to do in a freighter. Not talking about moving 100 billion+ ISK worth of T2 bpos or 900,000 m3 of mega. This is just doing what the freighter is meant to do with rather mundane cargo. And I already pointed out the scout is easily sidestepped by gankers with half a brain. Quote: The answer is simple. Learn to play. It is not a question of learning to play. It is a question of either giving appropriate tools to properly guard a freighter versus a suicide gank or, barring that, adjusting the profit calculation a bit to make suicide gankers be more choosey on who they go after. If a freighter pilot wants to slow boat 900,000 m3 of megacyte AFK through Empire well...they have it coming.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) Damn, beat me to it...
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:41:00 - [28] You should read the description of greifing before you start talking such tripe. Whatever you lost, im glad you lost it and hope you loose more.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:45:00 - [29] Freighters have no low and medium slots by design after the loot patch is a design malfunction. You can argue and spin to all inhabitants who are blind in one eye and can't see in the other that black is white. There is a problem with freighters and it is they have no defensive slots. Full stop. Anyone with a brain size of a nucleus could see the freighter problem. Don't tell me go get a scout and check whether there is a gate gank next door because there is no way for a freighter to defensively tank a gank long enough for Concord or MWD/warp away to a station. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Bazman Caldari Werda Fookarwii	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:52:00 - [30] Personally, i think they should get some medium slots, giving them low's will just lead to stuff like nanofreighters (lol stupid) With meds they can fit some shield tank mods, gives a little defense against suicide ganks but still makes them totally vunerable elsewhere -----

Areo Hotah LiveTech	Posted - 2007.04.29 16:33:00 - [31] Low-slots give the ability of cargo expanders and thus massive cargo space. In fact, repackaged capitals can then fit in a freighter. Areo
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.29 16:48:00 - [32] Edited by: Badhands on 29/04/2007 16:44:21 Please god don't let freighters have low slots. Freighters are SUPPOSED to be big, fat and slow. If you want low and mid slots, fly an iteron V. Edit - typo fixed.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:03:00 - [33] What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:08:00 - [34] My frigate is fast, nimble and has slots. Can you give it freighter sized cargo space? What harm would it do? It requires a LARGE number of BS to suicide a frieghter. If you are carrying enough equipment to make that worth while, if you have annoyed people with the clout to put that together, if you have any brains at all use a scout. This is eve.This is grief. Like it or quit Mr. I bought this account off ebay Jenny. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Trox Aeze Kaaii-Net Research Labs	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:14:00 - [35] Drone boats makes killing a Freighter profitable. Even after ship destruction, the drones will keep on attacking. My Freighter is frequently scannet for content. Now that we're a target, we need slots for fittings.
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:15:00 - [36] Would it take too much coding to allow low slots but not allow the cargo to expand more only for freighters? It was mentioned earlier, removing insurance payouts for ships that engage in illegal activities would solve most of the problems, and balance out the risk vs reward.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:23:00 - [37] Removing insurance for criminals is good idea and should have been implemented long time ago. But with freighters it isn't enough. 25 Domis are like 2B? Freighter without cargo costs 1B, cargo is often worth 10x more. Scouts doesn't work as long as attackers aren't completly dumb, so there is no defense.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Pan Crastus There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years: Quote: Quote: Quote: *Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD.* It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you.
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:40:00 - [39] solution: gief more penalties and it wont be worth it to do it for profit but it should be able to be done, theres no safe space right?.. it just wont be profitable to suicide on freighters if they up the penalties, and since there can be quite a value in freighters the penalties would have to be upped by quiet alot.. modules aint an answer they will just bring more battleships right? penalty is the way to go IMO or remove the freighter loot thing if it becomes to big of a problem with freighter griefing in high-sec.. --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them Please explain how? You can put all the escort on the freighter that you want, but the only way you can prevent a suicide gank group killing your freighter, is by suiciding your own ships on them. Since you'll have to suicide quite a few BS to kill ONE of the attacking BS, it is not feasible....

Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.04.29 17:57:00 - [41] Heh, calling pvp griefing is harrasment. I demand your accounts! I demand blood! Now enough with this carebearish word games. I dont know about you, but before the loot changes, i regularly put billions of goods into a freighter, set autopilot and went away for hours. On several accounts. So i agree with you, i want my (other) afk no effort ISK printing machine back as well. I wont mind a vagabond BPO either.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:06:00 - [42] The only problem here is receiving insurance payouts when defying Concord. Remove that, and things make more sense. Freighters can still be targetted, but have a more realistic effort:reward ratio. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
dabster Minmatar Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:14:00 - [43] What kind of mod would you possibly benefit from, other than DCU, on a freighter? ___________________________ Trust In Rust!
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:17:00 - [44] So, is this an actual problem yet? or just people freaking out because of the perceived potential for trouble? -----
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Trox Aeze Even after ship destruction, the drones will keep on attacking. Nope they won't. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Ash Vincetti So, is this an actual problem yet? or just people freaking out because of the perceived potential for trouble? AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Ki An AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag. /Ki You're wrong, there have been ganks after the patch just for the tasty loot inside. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:26:00 - [48] I'm quite curious myself just how much of a 'problem' this is, it's not as if organising the 'suicide squad' for the kill and 'loot squad' to recover the goods is a simple task that everyone and their dog can setup. Someone mentioned drones continue attacking, I've only ever seen drones continue attacking for several seconds at most before going inert... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:27:00 - [49] Originally by: Ling Xiao Originally by: Ki An AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag. /Ki You're wrong, there have been ganks after the patch just for the tasty loot inside. There have always been ganks, before or after the patch. The tasty loot is just a tasty extra. -----
dabster Minmatar Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:33:00 - [50] Drones hasnt kept on attacking after you die for a long long time, they only keep going when you get jammed. Concord permajams you pretty quickly after aggression thats why you use drones for this. ___________________________ Trust In Rust!

Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:40:00 - [51] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Ash Vincetti So, is this an actual problem yet? or just people freaking out because of the perceived potential for trouble? AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag. /Ki Now with the loot dropping, doesnt it stand to reason that attacks will only increase? I mean if people did it even when they recieved nothing in return, imagine how often it will start happening now that you can recieve compensation as well.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:44:00 - [52] how about flying three freighters in a group ? no one is going to get a force big enough to take all 3 of them down !
Mrmuttley Guns 'N' Hoses	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:45:00 - [53] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Time for a new Sig. Any Ideas?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:47:00 - [54] Originally by: Ki An AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag. There have indeed been suicide ganks since the patch. And at least one I know of that failed to pop the freighter. As for freaking out about AFK ISK machines can you point to one post here that makes that case or even implies it? I think most if not all here are fine with suicide ganks but merely want the risk v. reward ratio to make some better sense than it does now. That or find a way to allow for proper escorts to do their job. Webbing frigs are dicey at best. ECM bursting/smartbombing battleships will probably save the freighter but likely at the cost of the battleship and a sec hit (possibly a steep one) to the defender. Does that seem in any way right to you? That's about the extent of the options and none of them good. Forget AFK pilots...what about the people who WANT to do it right and properly escort their freighters? Why shouldn't they have a fair shot at doing that? A billion ISK ship with NO module slots! Silly to say it is unbalancing. Even an 8 slot nano freighter would still be horribly slow but if you want to forbid that mod to freighters fine. Why not give them SOME fitting ability to try and defend themselves. Oh yeah, no remote hull repairers either. IIRC a freighter down to 10% hull will cost 300 mil to repair. That make sense or seem right?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:50:00 - [55] Originally by: SiJira how about flying three freighters in a group ? no one is going to get a force big enough to take all 3 of them down ! Not sure how you think that would help. Gankers just pick one freighter and pop it. Other two go free. Gankers will of course know what they are carrying and pop the juiciest target.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:54:00 - [56] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step. Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots?
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:56:00 - [57] Ska-ruuu the mids and low slots. Give a freighter 8 hi slots and turn it into a Q ship
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step. Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots? How are packaged cap ships in Empire messed up? Not like you can fly them there. So what if they get transported through? Even if that is somehow a bad idea (don't see why but for the sake of argument will go with it) merely up the size of a packaged cap ship or just prohibit them being loaded into freighters. Or prohibit expanders on freighters. While using an expander on a freighter seems kinda cool they are big enough so no loss there. People want mod slots to be able to (possibly) defend themselves and their billion ISK ship to at least some extent.
Yee Do	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:09:00 - [59] Just make freighters scan proof. Then you will really be rolling the dice to attack or not.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:31:00 - [60] 1) Freighters were designed with large cargo-hold in mind. The Statement: "Do not haul billions of ISK" then, is a fallacy. Since it ignores the logic and the intent behind the Freighter in the first place. 2) Freighters used to NOT drop loot. Now that they have been fixed, they are open game to anyone with means to kill them for the loot. True, and is 100% correct, no arguments there. 3) "Suicide" ganking was always an accepted means of making ISK, and is a legitimate tactic. True, and it is 100% correct, no arguments there. 4) Freighters were always killable. True, and it is 100% correct, no arguments there. 5) Industrials and Transports - are only worth killing if they carry enough precious loot, like: BPO, Mega, Zydrine, Faction or Officer Mods. If they carry just regular equipment and basic minerals or components, they are really not worth that much; or rather - they are rarely worth an organized gank. True, and it is 100% correct, no arguments there. 6) A properly stocked freighter, lets say 800k M3, even with the second least expensive mineral, Pyerite, is ALWAYS worth killing. Since the gankers stand a chance of taking at least part of the 850 Million ISK cargo, and I am pricing it conservatively, as a reward for their trouble. It is always worth an organized gank. Again, true, and 100% correct, no arguments there. Taking all of the above points into consideration, we must ask ourselves, is it worth it? To run a freighter Half full, to run a freighter with anything above 400 Mill in the cargo-hold? To run a freighter in anything other than 0.0, with good escort? Follows a logical deduction, that freighters are the victims of their own success. Their large capacity, and now - the newfound vulnerability - prevents them from transporting 100% full cargos. The initial design for extra large capacity just went .... flop. The fact that freighters did not drop loot was a BUG, and an oversight. But it worked, the attacker of a freighter, when at war, in Low Sec, in 0.0 was inflicting a severe blow to their enemy, to their infrastructure. They did not get to keep the loot, but at least they knew it was extremely painful to their enemy. So, it follows, that the BUG FIX when it comes to freighters, effectively turned into the NERF. To fix this I propose the following: 1) Insurance Canceled - when one is destroyed by CONCORD. 2) Freighters' cargo-hold is reduced by (BALANCED amount). 3) Freighters' agility increased/and their mass decreased by (BALANCED amount) 4) Freighters' are given Low/Med Slots. Main reason why freighters are so vulnerable now is their ability to carry massive amounts of even least precious "stuff" that in its entirety makes it worth killing. Coupled with the fact that they are "glass" boats, slow, and are unable to defend themselves - represents yet ANOTHER broken game mechanic. I was always against freighters in the first place. Rather I was arguing for a "Small" freighter, with an ability to defend itself, moderately, for a short period of time, against an attack. Now, a couple of years later, I would say - "I told you so" CCP. Guys an Gals, Gankers and Freighter Pilots, lets scream at the top of our lungs, fling dirt, flame and insults at each other, and make matters worse now! Good Luck.

Quintus Archipirata Moon Stone Logistics	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. OMG !!! Quick CCP save me from being stupid! Please break out the nerf bat or give freighters super love because Jenny is to stupid to use transport ships to haul expensive gear in or use a scout! BTW there called pirates. Doh! Oh, while you are at it why not just ask CCP to make pirating against the rules? Would save alot of patching and whines. After all every one in high sec should always be nice and safe and keep a nice warm fuzzy feeling about themselfs and every one else around them. Want some cheese with that whine?
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? You really don't know, do you? They even removed rig slots from Freighters because otherwise people would transport capital ships inside them to hi sec and use them there. So 3 lows are bad because people will fit cargo expanders. I'll ask the other way round, what good will they do? Do you think with these few slots the ganking issue will go away? People will have to use a couple more BS but it won't make a real difference where it's worth it.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step. Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots? ... ... ... Or you could set repackaged cap ships to 1000000000000 m3. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:37:00 - [64] 1. its not griefing. 2. its not a problem. Sure, you can't escort in high sec. You can however scout. If there's 20 AAA bs's sitting at a gate on a well-tavelled route in high sec then o-m-g it's so damn hard to guess what they're doing there isn't it ? All ths really does is punish those travelling afk. Those are the ones that'll get picked off this way, and that's not a part of the playerbase I feel particularly sorry for. [center] Old blog
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:41:00 - [65] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h There have indeed been suicide ganks since the patch. And at least one I know of that failed to pop the freighter. Oh, I must have been sleeping on my forum whoring job. I would have thought such a feat would generate gazillions of chest beatings and whines. Could you point me to a thread about such a gank so that I may gloat? Originally by: Imperator Jora'h As for freaking out about AFK ISK machines can you point to one post here that makes that case or even implies it? I'm hardly the one freaking out here. This all seems like much ado about nothing to me. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I think most if not all here are fine with suicide ganks but merely want the risk v. reward ratio to make some better sense than it does now. The risk you run is losing 20 BS for not enough loot. Then you have the problem with all the loot thieves who can just walse up to your kill and ransack it for any valuable loot. Risk vs Reward is fine. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h That or find a way to allow for proper escorts to do their job. Webbing frigs are dicey at best. ECM bursting/smartbombing battleships will probably save the freighter but likely at the cost of the battleship and a sec hit (possibly a steep one) to the defender. Does that seem in any way right to you? Damn right, that seems right to me. You've got 20 guys all losing their ships as well as sec status for your one guy. That is not to mention the fact that if anyone tries to loot the freighter wreck after it's been destroyed, you can be there in your shiney BS and shoot the crap outta him. He's stealing from your wreck after all. It's yours. You can kill anyone taking anything from the wreck! Originally by: Imperator Jora'h That's about the extent of the options and none of them good. Forget AFK pilots...what about the people who WANT to do it right and properly escort their freighters? Why shouldn't they have a fair shot at doing that? They have a fair shot. Problem is they are lazy and/or stupid. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h A billion ISK ship with NO module slots! Silly to say it is unbalancing. Even an 8 slot nano freighter would still be horribly slow but if you want to forbid that mod to freighters fine. Why not give them SOME fitting ability to try and defend themselves. They have a friggin huge cargo space in exchange for the slots. A freighter is a flying warehouse. You ever seen a warehouse defend itself? Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Oh yeah, no remote hull repairers either. IIRC a freighter down to 10% hull will cost 300 mil to repair. That make sense or seem right? With enough reppers you could probably do it, but that would mean putting as much effort in as the gankers, and that's just too much, isn't it? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Kahor Use scanner or local to find the odd 20 dominix probably from same corp ? It's harder than you think to bump a freighter with a small ship, it might slow the align for maybe 5 sec, and that's it. Since your scout is one jump ahead, and warp way faster than the freighter (and speed in warp is way higher too), the scout (with a MWD fitted) will be on the gate, and only 2km away from webbing the freighter. It's surprisingly fast to align with a freighter, the problem come from the speed, and is resolved by a web. I know it because I've done it. You can bump with anything. If a small ship does not suffice a few Phoons could do the trick. Whatever. A little practice and you can keep a ship like a freighter from warping indefinitely. I've also done the web thing and while helpful it is not a sure thing to survive a suicide gank. Don't forget they will be scramming you too. While CONCORD will jam them and stop that they can hold you long enough. The video I saw on a suicide gank of a freighter the freighter went down in 12 seconds. Heck, have a few people in newbie frig with a scram on them added to your gang. Have them cycle a scram once each second on the freighter. Lag and CONCORD response time will not prevent the freighter from being scrammed till it is dead.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:02:00 - [67] One "escort" trick that would work would be to summon Concord preemptively. Destroyers would be effective and extremely cheap ways to do this, I think. It does require teamwork and planning of course. Which it should. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:03:00 - [68] Originally by: Ki An Oh, I must have been sleeping on my forum whoring job. I would have thought such a feat would generate gazillions of chest beatings and whines. Could you point me to a thread about such a gank so that I may gloat? How often do people post about any gank? I have to get a mate to give me the link to an image from a Red (forget) gank perhaps three days ago or so. CONCORD all over. I have also run by a few in local with a zillion CONCORD and people in local chattering about it (once was near Agil, another was by...forget...Rens maybe). I doubt I a ran across the only instances of this happening. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h As for freaking out about AFK ISK machines can you point to one post here that makes that case or even implies it? I'm hardly the one freaking out here. This all seems like much ado about nothing to me. I did not ask if you were freaking out. I asked you to point to the place where people whined about getting their AFK ISK printing machines back (which was your words). Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I think most if not all here are fine with suicide ganks but merely want the risk v. reward ratio to make some better sense than it does now. The risk you run is losing 20 BS for not enough loot. Then you have the problem with all the loot thieves who can just walse up to your kill and ransack it for any valuable loot. Risk vs Reward is fine. The suicide gankers are not risking not getting enough loot. They know precisely what the freighter has and if it is worth getting. As for people dogpiling on the can the gankers will have an empty freighter there to take the loot. A few people might nab some but they will get the bulk of it. Quote: Damn right, that seems right to me. You've got 20 guys all losing their ships as well as sec status for your one guy. That is not to mention the fact that if anyone tries to loot the freighter wreck after it's been destroyed, you can be there in your shiney BS and shoot the crap outta him. He's stealing from your wreck after all. It's yours. You can kill anyone taking anything from the wreck! The 20 guys are taking a minor sec status hit for a huge payday. That is THEIR choice. The defender if he smartbombs may pod who knows how many innocents in defense of the freighter and NOT by his choice. Huge difference there. I can kill anyone looting my wreck from my pod that I am now in? Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h That's about the extent of the options and none of them good. Forget AFK pilots...what about the people who WANT to do it right and properly escort their freighters? Why shouldn't they have a fair shot at doing that? They have a fair shot. Problem is they are lazy and/or stupid. I explicitly stated what about the people who are not lazy or stupid and who really do want to go to the effort of properly guarding a freighter? Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h A billion ISK ship with NO module slots! Silly to say it is unbalancing. Even an 8 slot nano freighter would still be horribly slow but if you want to forbid that mod to freighters fine. Why not give them SOME fitting ability to try and defend themselves. They have a friggin huge cargo space in exchange for the slots. A freighter is a flying warehouse. You ever seen a warehouse defend itself? Sure...station guns. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Oh yeah, no remote hull repairers either. IIRC a freighter down to 10% hull will cost 300 mil to repair. With enough reppers you could probably do it, but that would mean putting as much effort in as the gankers, and that's just too much, isn't it? Missed the point again. There are NO remote hull reps in game. And I am not on about hull tanking. If the freighter survives the gank and has considerable hull damage the ONLY way repair it is pay the station repair bill
ns10	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:04:00 - [69] All I can say is that there are a load of freighter pilots who carry 5-15 bill isk in their hold at any one time. No way to defend as freighter is dead in less than 15 secs, no amount of escourt can save you. How many freighter pilots losing say a years worth of saved isk will carry on playing once they lose everything. This does kill the freighter, empire ganks should not be allowed.
Draekas Darkwater Sanctum Infinitas	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:05:00 - [70] Seems to me that the answer is for concord to jam all your drones at the same time as they jam you. To me, it appears to be more of a "drone boat" glitch/exploit/whatever than anything else. If the point of concord is to warp in, jam you to prevent any further attacks from you before poping you... then it seems to me that the drone thing was probably more of an oversight by CCP than anything else. Most likely they didn't think it would ever be a huge issue, so never bothered dealing with it.

Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:08:00 - [71] Quote: Kali is for KArebearLIng. Waaa, waaa ? Its impossible to use scouts, it seems.
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:08:00 - [72] Originally by: galadran Griefing Read and learn... Okay I read and players exploiting mechanics to grief otyher players? CCP changed the rules so they drop loot - therfore potential profit even after you loose the ships you attack with. Where is the griefing in this scenario? The only griefing I can see is that the Freighters HAVE to be suicided because the players are normally in NPC coprs and non-war decable.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:10:00 - [73] Originally by: Rod Blaine 1. its not griefing. 2. its not a problem. Sure, you can't escort in high sec. You can however scout. If there's 20 AAA bs's sitting at a gate on a well-tavelled route in high sec then o-m-g it's so damn hard to guess what they're doing there isn't it ? What if they're aligned and at a safespot? __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Evil Thug Quote: Kali is for KArebearLIng. Waaa, waaa ? Its impossible to use scouts, it seems. This has been answered. It is trivially easy for the gankers to stay out of sight rather than advertise themselves sitting atop a gate. Use a scanner to find them? That'll work real well in Jita with 500+ people in system at any given time.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:14:00 - [75] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Evil Thug Quote: Kali is for KArebearLIng. Waaa, waaa ? Its impossible to use scouts, it seems. This has been answered. It is trivially easy for the gankers to stay out of sight rather than advertise themselves sitting atop a gate. Use a scanner to find them? That'll work real well in Jita with 500+ people in system at any given time. Yes, its very hard to spot 20 dominixes on scaner, isn`t it ? Most Jita inhabitants flying domis, it seems.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:14:00 - [76] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step. Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots? How are packaged cap ships in Empire messed up? Not like you can fly them there. So what if they get transported through? Even if that is somehow a bad idea (don't see why but for the sake of argument will go with it) merely up the size of a packaged cap ship or just prohibit them being loaded into freighters. Or prohibit expanders on freighters. While using an expander on a freighter seems kinda cool they are big enough so no loss there. People want mod slots to be able to (possibly) defend themselves and their billion ISK ship to at least some extent. It's messed up because they CAN be flown in empire. You just can't build them (but you can assemble them) in empire, or activate a cyno to jump them in. Just ask Chibbra about the Veldnought, if you have one of the very few capital ships that were built in empire before the rules changed, you can operate them just fine. If you give freighters slots, then you'll be able to build them in low-sec/0.0, haul them in by freighter, and assemble in whatever high-sec system you want to cause trouble in. Besides, freighters are tough enough as it is. There's more to EVE than just ISK balance, killing a freighter requires 20 people to one freighter pilot. Give them a true tank and you'll make freighters virtually unkillable, unless you have a huge blob the freighter pilot can just log off and tank until the timer expires.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:15:00 - [77] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/04/2007 20:11:02 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. An insured freighter won't cost you billions. If you put billions worth of stuff in it your just plain dumb. Your reply is dumb, read you post on other thread: 1) moving items worth billions in industrial is dumb, paper thin ship; 2) moving items worth billions in trasnport is dumb, 2 layers of paper tin armor don't make a difference; 3) moving items worth billions in freighter is dumb, they can be killed. So as any ship you can use to move a big load worth billion in high sec is a dumb option, what do you think must be used?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h How often do people post about any gank? I have to get a mate to give me the link to an image from a Red (forget) gank perhaps three days ago or so. CONCORD all over. I have also run by a few in local with a zillion CONCORD and people in local chattering about it (once was near Agil, another was by...forget...Rens maybe). I doubt I a ran across the only instances of this happening. People would post about a freighter suicide gank, simply because people posted about the two suicide ganks that happened before the patch. Without any proof this is just another "I heard someone who heard someone who might have seen it". Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I did not ask if you were freaking out. I asked you to point to the place where people whined about getting their AFK ISK printing machines back (which was your words). This whole thread is about freighters not being safe isk printing machines due to suicide gank. I can give you the link to this thread if you want. Here. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The suicide gankers are not risking not getting enough loot. They know precisely what the freighter has and if it is worth getting. As for people dogpiling on the can the gankers will have an empty freighter there to take the loot. A few people might nab some but they will get the bulk of it. They risk the loot getting blown up ya know. The loot won't distribute 50/50 in terms of value. If the loot is in containers theres a fair chance most of it will blow. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The 20 guys are taking a minor sec status hit for a huge payday. That is THEIR choice. The defender if he smartbombs may pod who knows how many innocents in defense of the freighter and NOT by his choice. Huge difference there. No. No difference. It's your choice to defend yourself. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I can kill anyone looting my wreck from my pod that I am now in? Ffs, you can't be this stupid. Anyone from the same corp as you can kill anyone that loots the wreck. We keep telling you to bring friends. Of course, this won't work if you're in an NPC corp. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I explicitly stated what about the people who are not lazy or stupid and who really do want to go to the effort of properly guarding a freighter? Seems to me you fall under the lazy/stupid cathegory as the people you speak of are able to protect their freighter/loot. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Sure...station guns. Never seen a warehouse with guns myself. You live in the bad part of town? Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Missed the point again. There are NO remote hull reps in game. And I am not on about hull tanking. If the freighter survives the gank and has considerable hull damage the ONLY way repair it is pay the station repair bill So? You take damage, and you may lose the profit from that run, but if you save your ship you can fly again another day. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Evil Thug Yes, its very hard to spot 20 dominixes on scaner, isn`t it ? Most Jita inhabitants flying domis, it seems. 500+ people in Jita (and omany other systems have hundreds) and you think it would be odd to see 20 Domis in the list?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:20:00 - [80] Originally by: Venkul Mul Your reply is dumb, read you post on other thread: 1) moving items worth billions in industrial is dumb, paper thin ship; 2) moving items worth billions in trasnport is dumb, 2 layers of paper tin armor don't make a difference; 3) moving items worth billions in freighter is dumb, they can be killed. So as any ship you can use to move a big load worth billion in high sec is a dumb option, what do you think must be used? My reply isn't dumb. You are. Expensive stuff such as t2 bpos should under no circumstances be moved in anything but a tanked BS or fast nanoed inty. Minerals should be packaged in containers, which will result in lots of it blowing up. Most importantly of all: You should NEVER put more in your ship than you can afford to lose. You should take EVERY opportunity to protect your ship. In this thread people have outlined SEVERAL ways to protect your ship, and if that fails, protect your loot. It isn't rocket science. It just takes more than one player in an NPC corp. In other words, it takes organisatory skills you obviously lack. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!

monkeyduck Mithril Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:20:00 - [81] Edited by: monkeyduck on 29/04/2007 20:20:25 Are you people using "scout" as your preventative measure really that naive? Considering some of the notable names posting it, I'd think not. Any gang organized enough to take down a freighter can easily sit aligned and full speed, just off the grid, ready to insta-warp. Hell, even fully unaligned you would still get there before a freighter could warp off, especially if you had your shuttles there bumping your target like they should be. Even with a scout, the BS fleet could sit multiple jumps out and STILL arrive before the freighter could get away so long as there was just one shuttle taking care of the freighter. A scout isn't going to save anyone. Remove insurance from Concord. There is absolutely no reason you should get insurance when Concord is the one spanking. Leave freighter ganks, don't add low/med slots - just make gankers pay out the nose to complete their task. If they pick their targets wisely they can still pull off a profit. Slots are NOT going to save a freighter.
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:21:00 - [82] Killing someone isn't griefing, it's playing a PVP game, which is what Eve is.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:31:00 - [83] Having escorts is possible in Empire if you only stop thinking of an offensive escort and start thinking of defensive. By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter. --
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:41:00 - [84] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 20:37:32 Originally by: Ki An People would post about a freighter suicide gank, simply because people posted about the two suicide ganks that happened before the patch. Without any proof this is just another "I heard someone who heard someone who might have seen it". I said I would link a pic as soon as my mate comes on (if he has the link still). This is all post patch (last week or so). Till then I can't provide more. [quoteThis whole thread is about freighters not being safe isk printing machines due to suicide gank. I can give you the link to this thread if you want. Here. No it is not. Most of the thread is asking for reasonable options to make suicide ganking freighters to have their risk v. reward ratios sorted and/or provide for meaningful defense mechanisms. Point to the post in this thread again where someone complained about not being able to be AFK safely with a zillion in cargo on board. Quote: They risk the loot getting blown up ya know. The loot won't distribute 50/50 in terms of value. If the loot is in containers theres a fair chance most of it will blow. I never knew how the game determines loot drops with regard to cans. You are saying if 50% of my hold is filled with can of trit and the other 50% of my hold is filled with cans filled with megacyte there is a chance only the trit will drop? Seems a possibility I suppose but I am guessing a full freighter will drop near 50% of the cargo and random distribution should equate to roughly 50% of the overall value. Of course I suppose someone could get colossaly unlucky. Then again I doubt the gank will happen on the thin edge of profitability. More likely they will go for something with several billion in cargo and whatever happens they will make money. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The 20 guys are taking a minor sec status hit for a huge payday. That is THEIR choice. The defender if he smartbombs may pod who knows how many innocents in defense of the freighter and NOT by his choice. Huge difference there. No. No difference. It's your choice to defend yourself. Now that is absurd. Most anywhere I can think of would say you defending your property from attackers/looters is not the same choice as the attackers/looters choosing to attack you. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I can kill anyone looting my wreck from my pod that I am now in? Ffs, you can't be this stupid. Anyone from the same corp as you can kill anyone that loots the wreck. We keep telling you to bring friends. I have asked several times about that very question and never got a definitive answer as to who obtains a kill flag. If it is as you say then good. Quote: Seems to me you fall under the lazy/stupid cathegory as the people you speak of are able to protect their freighter/loot. Maybe I am. What about the people who are not? Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Sure...station guns. Never seen a warehouse with guns myself. You live in the bad part of town? You really think warehouses do not have guards? In war they do not put flak batteries around such places? Hell, they put guns on WWII cargo vessles. Maybe not much use but doing it is simple enough. Off track though. Not talking about arming the freighter. Talking about improving its defensive capabilities. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Missed the point again. There are NO remote hull reps in game. So? You take damage, and you may lose the profit from that run, but if you save your ship you can fly again another day. So, by that you would be ok with removing hull reppers from the game? You said you PvP. You will be happy with saving your ship and footing the repair bill? Why would you be opposed to remote repping a hull? Not like it is close to a good way to tank.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:43:00 - [85] errrrm you guys knows escort is useless right?... in high sec, they just shoot the freighter, escort gets concorded if they do anything .... now.. if only they add in some "protection module" that the damage to the freighter is transfer to the escorts... then escorts would work.. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:44:00 - [86] The bottom line imo is, the agressor has the option to mod however he wants for it, the defender does not. Couple that with the fact that Concordokken still gets you an insurance payout...well it's just idiotic. Anyone with any sense of objectivity would see that. Finito.
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:46:00 - [87] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Evil Thug Yes, its very hard to spot 20 dominixes on scaner, isn`t it ? Most Jita inhabitants flying domis, it seems. 500+ people in Jita (and omany other systems have hundreds) and you think it would be odd to see 20 Domis in the list? Find me a screenshot where you can see 20+ odd dominix on 360 scanner from a gate in Jita, and I'll consider the fact that Jita might not be safe for freighters... The rest of you too lazy to click two buttons with your mouse when you scout might as well take the loss and learn from it. With the current nerf to speed mod I am not even sure a typhoon can align, and get from 0km to its max speed and bump the freighter that is 12/14 km away before it warps. And if it does, -and the ganksquad managed to land from the warp initiated out of scanning range (remember you have a scout and you scanned) before your freighter is out, -and all the members of that ganksquad are not all asleep from staying hours in a SS in empire to gank a possible worthy freighter. -Kill the freighter without missing him (I am pretty sure if the freighter is not afk, and keep pressing warp toward something he is aligned to and is not getting bumped again, it will warp off, probably in structure, when all the hostile dominix are jammed) -And the ganksquad also have a hauling squad which must be different chars than the one that shooted the freighter. -And that hauling squad didn't fall asleep either. They deserve to get the loots, minus what has been destroyed (which could be everything), and the sec status loss, and the isk loss (as little as it might seems/be, 20 mil per pilot for 20 pilot is still 400 mil). Let's face it, suicide ganking in empire happens because people can do it solo (with alt most likely), and can choose their own time frame, while getting a 20+ man gang organisated on the same schedule for no garanteed profit is WAY HARDER. Not to mention all those twenty people then have to rat in 0.0 to get back in empire. The only two cases of a freighter getting suicided in empire I have heard of have been done because of : revenge and revenge. While it might have been profitable, or not, it's definitly not easy task, and cannot be made on a daily basis. ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:48:00 - [88] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter. Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering.
Nymos Haiduken Industries	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:48:00 - [89] haha. i posted a thread when the first freighter gank happened like 1.5 months ago or something and pointed out it only costs 500m for 20 insured domis. people were just like "lololololoolllooll!!". now it's there :p did jenny's freighter get ganked? woot!! :D don't fly what you can't afford to lose, right? :p -- Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:52:00 - [90] Edited by: Ki An on 29/04/2007 20:49:23 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I said I would link a pic as soon as my mate comes on (if he has the link still). This is all post patch (last week or so). Till then I can't provide more. Fair enough. Would love to see screenies. Love the freighter wreck. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h No it is not. Most of the thread is asking for reasonable options to make suicide ganking freighters to have their risk v. reward ratios sorted and/or provide for meaningful defense mechanisms. Point to the post in this thread again where someone complained about not being able to be AFK safely with a zillion in cargo on board. Reasonable options have been put forth, but disregarded because people want an afk isk-print. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I never knew how the game determines loot drops with regard to cans. You are saying if 50% of my hold is filled with can of trit and the other 50% of my hold is filled with cans filled with megacyte there is a chance only the trit will drop? Seems a possibility I suppose but I am guessing a full freighter will drop near 50% of the cargo and random distribution should equate to roughly 50% of the overall value. Of course I suppose someone could get colossaly unlucky. Then again I doubt the gank will happen on the thin edge of profitability. More likely they will go for something with several billion in cargo and whatever happens they will make money. If you have two cans in cargo, one with trit, one with zyd, one, two or none of them might survive. However, if the trit can survives and the zyd doesn't, the profit will be far less. Roughly 50% of the items in the bay will survive, but this is just a statistical figure. Theoretically all of the cargo may blow. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Now that is absurd. Most anywhere I can think of would say you defending your property from attackers/looters is not the same choice as the attackers/looters choosing to attack you. Yeah, you can defend yourself if you want. The sec status would come from any collateral damage you cause, which is understandable and fully realistic. After all, if your house gets robbed and you open fire with your M16 and in the process of shooting the robbers take out your neighbours dog, wife and car, you'll be held responsable for that. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have asked several times about that very question and never got a definitive answer as to who obtains a kill flag. If it is as you say then good. You may stop asking and take my word for it. That's how it works. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Maybe I am. What about the people who are not? They won't lose a freighter. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h You really think warehouses do not have guards? In war they do not put flak batteries around such places? Hell, they put guns on WWII cargo vessles. Maybe not much use but doing it is simple enough. Off track though. Not talking about arming the freighter. Talking about improving its defensive capabilities. And I'm talking about how the defensive capabilities of a freighter should come from the other ships who flies along side him. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h So, by that you would be ok with removing hull reppers from the game? You said you PvP. You will be happy with saving your ship and footing the repair bill? Why would you be opposed to remote repping a hull? Not like it is close to a good way to tank. For your first question, I always pay for my repairs unless I'm fitted to rep myself, like armor repping. For your second question, I have never said I am opposed to remote hull repping. Bring it on. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!

Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter. Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering. 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Through in 1 or 2 BSs rigged for shield transfer and u get ur prod home safely. Now that's using less ships to protect then what it takes to take down a freighter. --
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:08:00 - [92] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. Show me a BS that can get anywhere near the required 480 cap/s ... (to run the reps for more than 10s anyway).
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:09:00 - [93] Originally by: Kahor Find me a screenshot where you can see 20+ odd dominix on 360 scanner from a gate in Jita, and I'll consider the fact that Jita might not be safe for freighters... What is max scanner range (I forget)? Seems simple enough to stay outside that. Quote: The rest of you too lazy to click two buttons with your mouse when you scout might as well take the loss and learn from it. With the current nerf to speed mod I am not even sure a typhoon can align, and get from 0km to its max speed and bump the freighter that is 12/14 km away before it warps. And if it does, -and the ganksquad managed to land from the warp initiated out of scanning range (remember you have a scout and you scanned) before your freighter is out, -and all the members of that ganksquad are not all asleep from staying hours in a SS in empire to gank a possible worthy freighter. -Kill the freighter without missing him (I am pretty sure if the freighter is not afk, and keep pressing warp toward something he is aligned to and is not getting bumped again, it will warp off, probably in structure, when all the hostile dominix are jammed) -And the ganksquad also have a hauling squad which must be different chars than the one that shooted the freighter. -And that hauling squad didn't fall asleep either. - You do not need a Phoon to bump. Or at least start with some speedy frigs and then hit with battleships. Nothing can be done to stop them and they can be totally effective. Hell, the gank squad could be docked or in another system. Bumping is a tactic CCP Devs even said to use to get Moms/Titans. Bumping freighters is just as easy and effective. - Warp gank squad on to bumpers. Unleash drones. Have at it. - Nearby freighter working for gank squad should be slowboating to target freighter all the while. By the time it is all said and done he should be there to scoop loot. No question it takes organisation and is not brain dead simple but it is not that hard either and the payday can be significant.
aiaakii	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:25:00 - [94] Remove the bumping... its staggeringly stupid game behavior to begin with... some basic calculations of mass should show that even a BS would do little more than 'splat' on the side of a freighter.. If CCP removed the ability to bump, pilots used web-frig escorts, Freighters wouldn't have this problem. Another option is to make Freight Cans unscannable,so that it is a total gamble as to what the suicide squad might get. Not only are you suiciding but you might be doing it for 900k/m3 of livestock..
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:25:00 - [95] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter. Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering. 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Through in 1 or 2 BSs rigged for shield transfer and u get ur prod home safely. Now that's using less ships to protect then what it takes to take down a freighter. Still won't do it likely. In the freighter gank video they dropped the freighter in 12 seconds. By the time your armor reppers hit they are well into hull. Your 20,800 points of armor would be burned off in less than 2 seconds. Most you have done is extend the freighter's life from 12 seconds to maybe 14-15 seconds. Watching the vid I think that would not have made a difference at all. Still a dead freighter.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:26:00 - [96] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Venkul Mul Your reply is dumb, read you post on other thread: 1) moving items worth billions in industrial is dumb, paper thin ship; 2) moving items worth billions in trasnport is dumb, 2 layers of paper tin armor don't make a difference; 3) moving items worth billions in freighter is dumb, they can be killed. So as any ship you can use to move a big load worth billion in high sec is a dumb option, what do you think must be used? My reply isn't dumb. You are. Expensive stuff such as t2 bpos should under no circumstances be moved in anything but a tanked BS or fast nanoed inty. Minerals should be packaged in containers, which will result in lots of it blowing up. Most importantly of all: You should NEVER put more in your ship than you can afford to lose. You should take EVERY opportunity to protect your ship. In this thread people have outlined SEVERAL ways to protect your ship, and if that fails, protect your loot. It isn't rocket science. It just takes more than one player in an NPC corp. In other words, it takes organisatory skills you obviously lack. /Ki Why you costantly play dumb in your replyes, when cleary you aren't? To move billions in a freighter you need to move common minerals or modules, not high end or BPO. The basic syste to protect a ship is tanking it, as external system have an higher chance to fail. A freighter has 0 option to tank. What you can afford to lose has little to do whit a ship being unable to do his function. A freigher is build to move huge mass of material, your suggestion to keep the value of the cargo low is like saing that a supertanker must move half empty to reduce the loss if the ship sink.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:27:00 - [97] Edited by: Sojuro Ryosaki on 29/04/2007 21:29:08 All ya need is 1 rep cycle for the freighter to get out. P.S. Even though this most likely doesn't work it does give alternative was to think about a situation. If they can come up with the firepower to take out a freighter you should be able to figure out how to protect it. If they come out with 20 BSs to kill, you come out with 20 BSs to repair. If they bump to slow it down, u bump to get it going. There's always a way to do things, you just have to think. --
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:29:00 - [98] Originally by: aiaakii Another option is to make Freight Cans unscannable,so that it is a total gamble as to what the suicide squad might get. Not only are you suiciding but you might be doing it for 900k/m3 of livestock.. Nah...this would make freighters essentially non-gankable. You could do it of course but who would? Way too expensive to try without knowledge that there is a good payday at the end of it (unless it is a revenge kill). Although perhaps making it so a pilot knows when he is cargo scanned would be cool. At least give you an idea someone is taking an interest in you.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki All ya need is 1 rep cycle for the freighter to get out. Trying to find the link for the freighter gank video. Adding 20,000 HP in one cycle (which is all you would get) almost certianly would not have saved it.
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:35:00 - [100] Mind you, that vid may well have been sped up. Most EVE vids are. EVE-O Forums Rules summary: If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more then 15 seconds, I am to assume I'm not allowed to do it.

Vanye Inovske Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Sundering	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:44:00 - [101] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter. Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering. 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Through in 1 or 2 BSs rigged for shield transfer and u get ur prod home safely. Now that's using less ships to protect then what it takes to take down a freighter. But most of a freighter's hitpoints are in structure. The Obelisk for example has 5k shields and 22k armor, and then another 120k in structure. You have to time your repping to hit the freighter after the armor is gone, but before the freighter dies, or it's a complete waste. That's going to be a very, very small window, probably about 5 seconds. If remote reppers heal at the end of the cycle the way regular ones do (I've never paid attention to when they heal), your timing would have to be perfect. You'll never get to the second repper cycle (and won't have the cap for it even if you do). And the range on large remotes is only 7.5km, so if your battleships pop out from the gate further than that away from the freighter (which is going to be most of the time), then they'll just sit looking pretty and providing moral support. Frankly I don't think this strategy has a prayer of working. A good scout is the only real protection, and even that can be circumvented by holding the freighter in place by bumping to bring the gankers in from beyond scanner range. It's this lack of defensive options which is frustrating. What you need to be able to do is splat the bumping ships to get your freighter into warp (if the gankers can arrive before you can do that, your scout probably should have seen them), and if you have the firepower to suicide gank those ships this is indeed your best option. It has the advantage of summoning CONCORD in ahead of the ganksquad, too, taking CONCORD's response time out of the equation. Seems a bit ridiculous that suicide ganking is your only defense from a suicide gank, though. And really, should it be mandatory to escort your freighter every time you want to move a load of basic minerals three jumps through high sec? The real solution is to adjust freighters so that it's only economical to suicide gank them if they have exceptionally valuable cargo. Needing to escort those runs is fine. Needing to escort mex and pyr is a little silly.
Donna Maria	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:53:00 - [102] Originally by: Aramendel " One single "escort" BS with several large smartbombs could clear the drones pretty fast." {Until it hits a secure can, cargo can, structure in empire then CONCORDEDED) " A single ECM burst could work as well " (Nerfbat and area effect has same risk as SB) "those drones effected by it do not autoattack again, but have to be given the attack command to do this. But I am never tested that myself." (How about speaking about things you know? Once locked the drones attack you.. ECM burst rarely will get drones off you, and the short range (5-7km) of ECM Burst and high cap use means you wont get alot of use out of this tactic..) "so it will pobably get concorded as well." - Only thing you said that made sense. Boo have you ever escorted anything? In Empire? Past 10 hostile battleships/cruisers? I dont think so dear.. Go to the back of the class and be quiet.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:54:00 - [103] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 21:55:14 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Mind you, that vid may well have been sped up. Most EVE vids are. Here's the link to the freighter gank video. In the video he starts taking damage at timestamp 3:01 and is dead at timestamp 3:13. I'll leave it to you to decide if that was sped up. EDIT: My bad. I was watching the target disappear off of target lock. Guy was jammed. Looks like freighter died at timestamp 3:33 so 32 seconds. Big difference I admit. Around 5,312 DPS overall although that is just average DPS. The repping figures given above would make a difference I think. Hard to say...that freighter got hammered.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:02:00 - [104] I knew there was now way they did that much DPS and he survived for 12 secs. --
Trind2222 Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:09:00 - [105] Hope this will limit amout of freighters in jita is so anoying when you undock stasion whit 6 freighters outside.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:16:00 - [106] Originally by: Vanye Inovske Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. Freighters are mostly structure, and suicide domis all use ogres. Quote: The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering.But most of a freighter's hitpoints are in structure. The Obelisk for example has 5k shields and 22k armor, and then another 120k in structure. You have to time your repping to hit the freighter after the armor is gone, but before the freighter dies, or it's a complete waste. 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Actually 8 large remotes(the best named, cause they're cheap) will do 4992 armor/6 seconds(repair systems skill). Taking your example of obelisk with 22k armor and 5k shield. It means 5 BS remote armor repping and 2 BS shield transferring will repair/transfer about 1365 shield/4160 armor/second. Remember that the gankers will not be doing spike damage(cause its drones), 20 domis doing 500 DPS each, realisitcally lower once jammed, and the fact that they wont all have max skills with t2 ogres), will only do 6500dps on armor, which you can actually hold at till the cap on the boosting BS run out in about 2 cycles. This is pretty much overkill, since you only need to hold out till concord kills the offenders and their drones stop shooting 2 seconds later. So probably 3 remote repping bs+1 shield boosting bs can let you survive the 20 domi suicide gank fairly easilly, or about 1/5 the number of gankers, scale up proportionally as the number of gankers increase. Btw, a scorpion with 8 ECM bursts in mids will gurantee to make that suicide gank fail as every domi gets jammed by concord and their drones lose lock every second for every 8 seconds. The scorp will probably be concorded for ECM bursting neutrals, but the sec penalty wont be that huge for mere aggression(and the tiny range on ecm bursts).
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:19:00 - [107] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 21:56:40 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Mind you, that vid may well have been sped up. Most EVE vids are. Here's the link to the freighter gank video. In the video he starts taking damage at timestamp 3:01 and is dead at timestamp 3:13. I'll leave it to you to decide if that was sped up. EDIT: My bad. I was watching the target disappear off of target lock. Guy was jammed. Looks like freighter died at timestamp 3:33 so 32 seconds. Big difference I admit. Around 4,700 DPS overall although that is just average DPS. The repping figures given above would make a difference I think. Hard to say...that freighter got hammered. 4700 DPS modified by the 35% thermal resists on armor gives us 3k DPS, 4 BS with 8 large remote armor reps can outrepair that, realistically you only need like 2 BS since concord would kill the domis b4 your ft dies.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:28:00 - [108] But, honestly, what can a couple of module slots do to help if you are taking 150k in damage before concord shows up? A couple cycles of an armor rep or shield booster ain't going to help. Structure reps are too slow for combat in any situation. Anything offensive is useless against that many targets, you could jam maybe one ship and won't kill anything. Maybe ECM Bursts will give you a couple moments of time, but then concord will probably get you for that. You don't have enough shield for increases in resists to make a difference. Armor, that might give you a couples seconds if you up the resists and pick the right damage type, but against 40 ships you will probably not be seeing all of one type, so again useless. The only module that would have any impact realistically is a damage control, and that may be a WEE bit overpowered as it would give you near a quarter million structure. So, perhaps some tweaks to the stats of the ships may be the best compromise here IF this really is a problem. (Note: How many folks here have actually lost freighters themselves to a suicide gank?) Maybe switch 20k of points from structure to armor, maybe tweak in some structural resists of say 5 to 10%. But giving a couple slots just ain't going to help.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:45:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamesguy 4700 DPS modified by the 35% thermal resists on armor gives us 3k DPS, 4 BS with 8 large remote armor reps can outrepair that, realistically you only need like 2 BS since concord would kill the domis b4 your ft dies. In conclusion, in the end, this thread is a whole lot of bull**** about nothing, typical whine thread. No, its 4,700 real DPS (on average). Just took total HP divide by time to kill. They were doing more than 4700 to account for resists.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:49:00 - [110] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Gamesguy 4700 DPS modified by the 35% thermal resists on armor gives us 3k DPS, 4 BS with 8 large remote armor reps can outrepair that, realistically you only need like 2 BS since concord would kill the domis b4 your ft dies. In conclusion, in the end, this thread is a whole lot of bull**** about nothing, typical whine thread. No, its 4,700 real DPS (on average). Just took total HP divide by time to kill. They were doing more than 4700 to account for resists. Except there were no logistics ships repairing the ft, so the vast majority of DPS was on structure, not armor or shield. So call it 5k DPS, big difference.

Vanye Inovske Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Sundering	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:54:00 - [111] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Vanye Inovske Not even close. Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS. Freighters are mostly structure, and suicide domis all use ogres. Quote: The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering.But most of a freighter's hitpoints are in structure. The Obelisk for example has 5k shields and 22k armor, and then another 120k in structure. You have to time your repping to hit the freighter after the armor is gone, but before the freighter dies, or it's a complete waste. 1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Actually 8 large remotes(the best named, cause they're cheap) will do 4992 armor/6 seconds(repair systems skill). Taking your example of obelisk with 22k armor and 5k shield. It means 5 BS remote armor repping and 2 BS shield transferring will repair/transfer about 1365 shield/4160 armor/second. Remember that the gankers will not be doing spike damage(cause its drones), 20 domis doing 500 DPS each, realisitcally lower once jammed, and the fact that they wont all have max skills with t2 ogres), will only do 6500dps on armor, which you can actually hold at till the cap on the boosting BS run out in about 2 cycles. This is pretty much overkill, since you only need to hold out till concord kills the offenders and their drones stop shooting 2 seconds later. So probably 3 remote repping bs+1 shield boosting bs can let you survive the 20 domi suicide gank fairly easilly, or about 1/5 the number of gankers, scale up proportionally as the number of gankers increase. Btw, a scorpion with 8 ECM bursts in mids will gurantee to make that suicide gank fail as every domi gets jammed by concord and their drones lose lock every second for every 8 seconds. The scorp will probably be concorded for ECM bursting neutrals, but the sec penalty wont be that huge for mere aggression(and the tiny range on ecm bursts). Out of curiosity I tried setting up an Apoc with Quickfit. 8x remote reppers, 2x cap recharge II, 7x cpr II, and 2 heavy cap boosters with 800's. I got 4 repper cycles before capping out, so it's more feasible than I had thought. Range on best named is still only 9km, though, and it's going to be a crapshoot getting your battleships to come through the gate that close to the freighter. Having to slowboat up to 20km could doom us, so we fit a mwd, yes? Best put on a 3rd heavy booster then too, but even with that we now start capping out on the third repper cycle. The same range issue is going to affect your scorp, too, though it can fit a mwd and doesn't need much cap to do its job. I frankly don't like the defensive options. And tell me, who is seriously going to start escorting freighters carrying basic minerals through high sec with a half dozen apocs?
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:26:00 - [112] Originally by: Vanye Inovske I frankly don't like the defensive options. And tell me, who is seriously going to start escorting freighters carrying basic minerals through high sec with a half dozen apocs? I'd bet a corp that wants their goods to get to its destination will atleast try the idea. --
panman Captain Morgan Society Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:31:00 - [113] Why do people want to nerf shooting everything. If you dont like pvp, dont play eve.. Low slots and med slots wont help you not get ganked in a freighter.. It just means its going to take a minute or so more. Stop trying to get anything to do with pvp nerfed. Next you will say warp scrambling someone is griefing... What next! ----------------------- Resistance is not worth it
Chavu The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:50:00 - [114] I'm not sure I get it, shouldn't just 1 Huginn/Rapier scout should be able to get a freighter through high sec 99% of the time? I also don't seen how 3 lows or remote repping will stop a freighter suicide squad: all of the 10+ domis should have a point and 1 remote repping ship won't be enough. Exactly how many freighters get ganked in high sec every day?
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.30 00:17:00 - [115] Originally by: Vanye Inovske Out of curiosity I tried setting up an Apoc with Quickfit. 8x remote reppers, 2x cap recharge II, 7x cpr II, and 2 heavy cap boosters with 800's. I got 4 repper cycles before capping out, so it's more feasible than I had thought. Range on best named is still only 9km, though, and it's going to be a crapshoot getting your battleships to come through the gate that close to the freighter. Having to slowboat up to 20km could doom us, so we fit a mwd, yes? Best put on a 3rd heavy booster then too, but even with that we now start capping out on the third repper cycle. The boosting BS is not even close to being sustainable, so in this particular case you want to use 2 heavy boosters, 1 large cap battery, an RCU, 2 nanos, and rest in CPRs. You can boost probably 4 cycles before cap out, which is plenty. In addition, if you use a scout, that means the 20 BS gank squad would have to be in a 15+AU SS, which will give you about 30 seconds to get your logistics BSes in range, which is plenty IMO. Quote: The same range issue is going to affect your scorp, too, though it can fit a mwd and doesn't need much cap to do its job. I prefer the repping BSes tbh, that way you're not asking a pilot to nuke his sec status everytime you need an escort. Quote: I frankly don't like the defensive options. And tell me, who is seriously going to start escorting freighters carrying basic minerals through high sec with a half dozen apocs? If ft ganks become more common I guarantee you all the smart alliances and corps will start flying these as escorts.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.30 00:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Chavu I also don't seen how 3 lows or remote repping will stop a freighter suicide squad: all of the 10+ domis should have a point and 1 remote repping ship won't be enough. 3 apocs with 8 large remotes each can pretty much tank the ft till all 20 domis die to concord in 30 seconds or so. And concord jams 100% of the time, so it doesnt matter if the domis have a pt or not.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:11:00 - [117] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) Jenny was sold on? Guess that explains a few things.
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:16:00 - [118] Add passowrd set option for general freight cans just like noraml haulers can carry giant secure cans with passwords that kinda renders it usless unless the freighter pilot is careless not to use freighter cans or forgets to set a password which still adds a possebility for profit. BNC Vs CELES Video
Horatio Nately Caldari 808 Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.30 03:07:00 - [119] Edited by: Horatio Nately on 30/04/2007 03:04:09 I wonder what the transfer (repair) rate for 8 or so geddons/whatever with remote reps.? just an idea. It dosent need to be sustainable, just delay untill concord comes right? --------------------------------------- CEO 808 Enterprises, A Hawaii, USA Playercorp Serving The Caldari State.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.30 03:58:00 - [120] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Add passowrd set option for general freight cans just like noraml haulers can carry giant secure cans with passwords that kinda renders it usless unless the freighter pilot is careless not to use freighter cans or forgets to set a password which still adds a possebility for profit. Not sure I follow. Secure cans with passwords are no guard against looters. They still get your stuff (password does not prevent them accessing the can).

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:17:00 - [121] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 30/04/2007 05:23:34 Edited by: Venkul Mul on 30/04/2007 05:22:43 Originally by: Gamesguy Btw, a scorpion with 8 ECM bursts in mids will gurantee to make that suicide gank fail as every domi gets jammed by concord and their drones lose lock every second for every 8 seconds. The scorp will probably be concorded for ECM bursting neutrals, but the sec penalty wont be that huge for mere aggression(and the tiny range on ecm bursts). Yo don't read the patch notes? You can't use more than 1 ECM burst at a time. relevant patch notes
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. ^^^What she said. Even one freakin lowslot ffs would be great. Why have freighters that have all the traits of other ships in the game, except the ability for even mediocre defense?
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:43:00 - [123] Hmmm. Since it seems like the most arguments against giving freighters fitting slots are the ability to make them haul more, how about something like this change to freighters: A freighter gets 0/0/3 slots, and an amount of PG/CPU, maybe 10/100 or whatever. Each slot used(!) reduces the freighters remaining cargo space to 1/2. I.e. 0 slot used: Freighter has full cargo space 1 slot used: Freighter has 1/2 cargo space 2 slot used: Freighter has 1/4 cargo space 3 slot used: Freighter has 1/8 cargo space This'll mean that the slots can not be used for increasing cargo space, but if you sacrifice cargo space, you can tank your freighter.
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:05:00 - [124] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 30/04/2007 08:01:34 Originally by: Kerfira Hmmm. Since it seems like the most arguments against giving freighters fitting slots are the ability to make them haul more, how about something like this change to freighters: A freighter gets 0/0/3 slots, and an amount of PG/CPU, maybe 10/100 or whatever. Each slot used(!) reduces the freighters remaining cargo space to 1/2. I.e. 0 slot used: Freighter has full cargo space 1 slot used: Freighter has 1/2 cargo space 2 slot used: Freighter has 1/4 cargo space 3 slot used: Freighter has 1/8 cargo space This'll mean that the slots can not be used for increasing cargo space, but if you sacrifice cargo space, you can tank your freighter. So, you think an alliance/corp that bothers to bring themselves 20+ domis, and spend a few days gathering intel on whos a freighter alt, what route he takes etc. and having their own freighter for looting ready, will not be able to just bring 30 or 40 domis and gank it with a tank? Tbh, escorting with remote reps was already shown that it works with 5 BS or so, scouting works, since if they are off-scan range, which is 14 AU or so, means they will not make it to the gate before you are jumped and warped webbed on the other side. Add to that the fact that a normal trader who is using his freighter will not run into 20 Domi+ suicide ganks. So far freighters of alliances have been ganked by alliances they are at war with, thats a big difference. I doubt a lot of the suicide gankers risk what 400mil in popping it and then getting a stack of pyer blown up with the freighter and not dropping.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:22:00 - [125] Notes from this thread: There are no remote hull reps: A serious problem for damaged freighters. Logistics BS or logistics ships can keep freighters alive. But have cap problems. ECM bursts would be a valid option to braking target lock on drones, but only one can be active on any said ship since a recent patch. Good scouts help avoid said camps. (and lots of trolling/flaming) That about it? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.04.30 09:57:00 - [126] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 29/04/2007 13:01:52 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. How is it "griefing" if a ship gets attacked for loot? That sounds more like "playing EVE". One group kills for loot because they think there is loot. One group kills for fun because they can. One group kills because the hate the freighter pilot. Two groups are griefers and one group is not. Majority wins. Ganking freighters in high-sec is griefing. Freighters need medium and low slots badly. Give the little lamb a chance until Concord arrives to help it. When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. Griefers pew pew. Freighter pilots have to enjoy receiving pew pew. Your logic is terrible. In fact you just use "griefing" as a synonym for PvP combat.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:09:00 - [127] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Kerfira My stuff... So, you think an alliance/corp that bothers to bring themselves 20+ domis, and spend a few days gathering intel on whos a freighter alt, what route he takes etc. and having their own freighter for looting ready, will not be able to just bring 30 or 40 domis and gank it with a tank? Of.c. they can, but it'll be more hazzle, and it'll be more expensive. Freighter ganking atm is too cheap. It cost less to suicide a freighter than the cost of the freighter! I seriously doubt this is the intended punishment for high-sec aggression, i.e. that the victim looses more than the aggressor even when not counting the cargo.... Also, don't forget, we ARE talking about high-sec space here. This area is SUPPOSED to be relatively safe, but because of a flaw in CONCORD functionality isn't. CONCORD target jams aggressors, but doesn't target jam aggressing drones, which is what makes the Domi suicide gank feasible. That CONCORD does target jam as soon as they arrive indicates to me that the functionality CCP intends is that you can shoot at people until CONCORD arrives, then it stops, but that they forgot about drones when implementing it. Originally by: Chewan Mesa Tbh, escorting with remote reps was already shown that it works with 5 BS or so, scouting works, since if they are off-scan range, which is 14 AU or so, means they will not make it to the gate before you are jumped and warped webbed on the other side. Please explain how you web a freighter in a noob corp without getting blown up? If the freighter is not in a noob corp, suicide ganks are not needed as you can just wardec... Originally by: Chewan Mesa Add to that the fact that a normal trader who is using his freighter will not run into 20 Domi+ suicide ganks. So far freighters of alliances have been ganked by alliances they are at war with, thats a big difference. I doubt a lot of the suicide gankers risk what 400mil in popping it and then getting a stack of pyer blown up with the freighter and not dropping. It was also thought that nobody would ever abuse the wardec system to turn high-sec into a free-for-all, but it happened anyway.... With the amount of freighters passing into or out of Jita every day, it's only a matter of time before some enterprising corp starts making a business from it.....
sorilin Amarr Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:19:00 - [128] only way is to nerf insurance.. ccp.. insurance while in war ?? wtf... i meen if your killed by a wartarget ummmm njaaa its silly... the n000b corp freighters i also wanna kill.. so keep it going.. keep killing n00b corpers.. a freighter pilot in an00b corp isent new anymore.. ffs people be proud of the colors you wear ffs.. I am the borg!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:30:00 - [129] Ok, it seems now that the real problem has come forward. People want to be safe while in noob corps. Well, I guess this is one instance where being in a corp pays off. If you want your freighters to be safe in any space, join a player corp and escort it properly. No change of game mechanics needed. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
w0rmy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Laboratus Logistics BS or logistics ships can keep freighters alive. But have cap problems. You can run 6 shield transfer non stop in a baselisk You can run 4 remote armour reps non stop in a scimitar or Oneiros Dont fly amarr so dont know bout that one. Exactly what cap problems do logistic ships have? Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg

Qolde Minmatar Guardian Heroes Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:41:00 - [131] Give freighters some launcher slots and a HUGE bonus to light missile refire rate and explosion velocity damage so they can fit FOF missiles and kill the drones. It would only work if they are at the keyboard, and it wouldn't completely kill suicide ganks. Never get popped again!
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:46:00 - [132] Escorts would work if CCP introduced a new shield skill and shield Module - Shield projector, high slot You target your ally, lock, click this module, and voila. Your shield is now theirs, resistances and all. if you really need to move something vaulable now, Get 5 friends in highly passive tanked out Projectors, with basic weapons, gang up, move out, scout, and watch yourself. (Hey, it IS an interesting idea, imagine the tactical shift a simple module like THAT could make. Another one bites the dust.
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:30:00 - [133] If they are to be given low slot,s half their base carrying capacity. Problem of too big freighters solved.
Ilea Celentay Veiled Justice	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:51:00 - [134] Main problem I see with all this "bring an escort" is inescence there is few ways an escort can be effective. Like someone else mentioned, Lag of 20+ Doms, eash spewing out 5 drones, plus CONCORD trying to save the day means the defenders are going to find it hard to do anything. There needs to be a way in Eve to make some ships invulnerable until its defenders are defeated, like someone mentioned, some kinda shield lock that means the defenders shields are linked to the victim... but ye. Faction Ship Info \|\| Rig Factory
hairy minky	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:57:00 - [135] Edited by: hairy minky on 30/04/2007 11:53:56 So who do I talk to about ganking a freighter pilot who I have a score to settle with. I know he carries a lot of loot i.e 3-5 bil at any time :) I'll pay the domi bill. Eve mail me for details... you guys keep the loot. it's in a 0.5 system as well.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:58:00 - [136] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2007 11:56:39 I dont think slots are the answer to freightors. Slots are a means to an end - and the objective is to keep the freightor alive. Slots wont keep a solo freightor pilot alive - It will just mean that you get a bigger suicide gang. The real issue is that freightor pilots used to be the secure afk or semi-afk method of travel. Now that is no longer the case. Just make sure that you have a corpmate that can web you to instawarp and you are gank immune pretty much. Have another corpmate 1 jump ahead to see if there is a large dominix/arbritrator/vexor camp in the jump in gate and you can then dock up insted of proceeding further. And before someone says "omg you dont fly freight0rz", I used to fly my personally owned freightor though Hed-gp, down through impass all the way to bottom end of the universe, back when I used to run the Giant Can Monopoly in Paragon Soul. I know how to move these things safely, and the lesson to learn is that you should adapt your tactics to suit changes in eve game mechanics. Nothing is 100% safe, but you can change your tactics to make it 99% safe. -- Billion Isk Mission
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:59:00 - [137] Originally by: Ilea Celentay Main problem I see with all this "bring an escort" is inescence there is few ways an escort can be effective. Like someone else mentioned, Lag of 20+ Doms, eash spewing out 5 drones, plus CONCORD trying to save the day means the defenders are going to find it hard to do anything. There needs to be a way in Eve to make some ships invulnerable until its defenders are defeated, like someone mentioned, some kinda shield lock that means the defenders shields are linked to the victim... but ye. Collision detection for shots fired would solve so many problems in this game. Even though it would lag us out even worse than today. You could no longer outblob ppl, since you would just end up shooting your own mates, ppl would have to move in squads/wings to avoid friendly fire etc etc... In this example, the drones would waste firepower on other drones, ships could just physically move between the target and the shootert to intercept fire and concord would respond to their own friendly fire when they blob up like they do in the vids:) ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:03:00 - [138] Reduce Freighter base cargo space by about 30% Then give them 2 mids 2 lows and 2 rig slots. That gives the poor freighter pilot some options for his defense at the cost of cargo space. Fair's fair, no ?
RtoZ	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:13:00 - [139] My comments on the freighter debacle: What goes around comes around. If people start suicide ganking freighters en masse, as I predict will happen from now on, the repercussions on the EVE economy will be huge. It will stop the flow of goods in high sec, break the production backbone and single handedly turn eve's deflationary trend on its head. And then, the pew pew'ers, allready notoriously poor as a player class will become even poorer. Think eve is hard now? Wait till the markets start drying up due to the high risk in HIGH BLOODY SECURITY logistics. I'm sitting this one out just to confirm if the above hunch is correct, untill I do my Charon is mothballed. To CCP: start thinking about the broader implications of what you do, allowing freighters to drop loot was a phenomenally bad decision, given the ship's more or less unique charectaristics. Most of the logistics in eve is done by solo players, hauler corps or alts, and these simply do not have the resources to support their opps. However , if the idea is to slow eve gameplay, well, this will bring it to a crawl, as people have to go back to pre freighter logistics and start fitting cargo expanders on battleships.
Vance Black Caldari ORIGIN SYSTEMS	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:18:00 - [140] Only problem with nerfing freighter cargo space, is the need for them to carry, as intended capital ship assembler arrays, and outpost platforms. Pray tell how people are supposed to haul those if freighters get nerfed? --------------------------------- Your clone is mine

Kamikazi ONE Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:18:00 - [141] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do? Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step. Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots? 50% reduction in cargo space for freightersm or whatever the actual number is that would give you the same space if you fitted cargo expanders into the lows. People could then choose to nerf their cargo and get some protection or go for max cargo.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:50:00 - [142] Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? No, Jenny Spitfire never had a vagabond bpo - little known secret I sold her some gila BPCs a few weeks before she left and I asked her if she could make me one cheap. She said not to tell anyone (but since she's left...) but she never had a BPO. After that I watched her posts very clearly. She never actually states "I have a vagabond bpo". She always defended tech 2 BPO owners, but she never stated that she had one. People assumed and the replies were always "well it's ok for you to say that, because you have a vaga bpo" (or along those lines). She did nothing to deny it, but she never actually stated it either. whoever this character that controls the Jenny Spitfire character, they've ruined it. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot. Nice Isk. I'll take it.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:56:00 - [143] Originally by: Max Hardcase Reduce Freighter base cargo space by about 30% Then give them 2 mids 2 lows and 2 rig slots. That gives the poor freighter pilot some options for his defense at the cost of cargo space. Fair's fair, no ? I dont think it would make any difference. All that will happen is that gankers will bring a extra couple of BS's, thus removing any benifit of slots. -- Billion Isk Mission
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:03:00 - [144] Originally by: w0rmy You can run 4 remote armour reps non stop in a scimitar or Oneiros Dont fly amarr so dont know bout that one. Remote armor reps on a scimitar sounds weird. Mine has lower cap consumption with shield transporters ( ... and a tracking link efficiency bonus, if I remember it right.) It's able to run 3 large shield transporter and one medium non-stop. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:26:00 - [145] If 60 red battleships hugging a gate on a pipe doesnt set off alarm bells... go back to wow. The problem isnt griefing or freighters being weak.. its people being stupid/afk. Insure the freighter. Dont fill it with enough ** to make it worth attacking (thats what we call, risk/reward.) Stop whining, thankyou. Originally by:** Dr Cupid Let me tell you all that I'm really enjoying eve-beta, and can't wait for the real game to come out!
Flex Nebura	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:44:00 - [146] So you ask for tanking slots on a freighter.. cool.. there should be a way to hold out while Concord clears up the trash.. OH!! and there is and you dont even need to put med/low slots on the freighter.. People said: Use escorts. And they are right. While you might think an escort is something that shoots at the attackers, it doesnt have to be.. With the amount of money being made on a freighter run its possible split the profit more than one way.. Anyways.. bring a couple of logistic ships or battleships and shield X-fer and remote rep the freighter.. should make it last long enough under the barrage of drones. Could be that the attackers just bring a few more ships dedicated to take out the escort.. but I would think they would need atleast 2 or 3 ships per escort.. That should even it out nicely.. Its good to hear about freighters geting popped.. was too easy for those with billions already to make more by afk traveling through high-sec. Its especially heartwarming when the frieghter pilot is in a npc corp. Those attacking freighters are working together.. those flying freighters should be working together with someone too.. Eve is an MMO not a single player game. If you haul such expensive things, its better to share some of your wealth with a few guard dogs, than to lose it all to the wolves.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:59:00 - [147] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? No, Jenny Spitfire never had a vagabond bpo - little known secret I sold her some gila BPCs a few weeks before she left and I asked her if she could make me one cheap. She said not to tell anyone (but since she's left...) but she never had a BPO. After that I watched her posts very clearly. She never actually states "I have a vagabond bpo". She always defended tech 2 BPO owners, but she never stated that she had one. People assumed and the replies were always "well it's ok for you to say that, because you have a vaga bpo" (or along those lines). She did nothing to deny it, but she never actually stated it either. whoever this character that controls the Jenny Spitfire character, they've ruined it. She stated it quite a few times actually. With the first post on the subject from her being: 'I now have a Vagabond BPO' (not an exact quote)
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.04.30 14:04:00 - [148] Has anyone considered giving concord logistics ships? enough that you would need 100 BS to kill a freighter or some such? I would also like to see much nicer shortcuts through low sec, eg Jita to Oursulaert i think is 3 jumps longer to go high sec? it should be like 50% or more faster to go through low sec tbh, risk vs reward. If its 30 jumps high sec make it 7-10 low sec and watch the pirates swarm to low sec instead of swarming to jita....
Kesh McCall Caldari Malkalen Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.30 14:04:00 - [149] Originally by: Laboratus Notes from this thread: There are no remote hull reps: A serious problem for damaged freighters. Logistics BS or logistics ships can keep freighters alive. But have cap problems. ECM bursts would be a valid option to braking target lock on drones, but only one can be active on any said ship since a recent patch. Good scouts help avoid said camps. (and lots of trolling/flaming) That about it? >That sums it up perfectly
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.30 15:24:00 - [150] two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly.

Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.30 15:27:00 - [151] Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. The thing discussed here is suicide gankers though, bumping doesnt have a lot to do with it, they will just warpscram the freighter on the other side.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.30 15:50:00 - [152] I never really could figure out why large industrial ships are sparse on slots. I mean...You're a massive ship that requires to do nothing more than move cargo and so therefor you should have all the powergrid and CPU you need to fit all kinda things in mids and lows.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:31:00 - [153] Originally by: Mighty Dread I never really could figure out why large industrial ships are sparse on slots. I mean...You're a massive ship that requires to do nothing more than move cargo and so therefor you should have all the powergrid and CPU you need to fit all kinda things in mids and lows. Um, because they're full of empty space for that cargo
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:42:00 - [154] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. The thing discussed here is suicide gankers though, bumping doesnt have a lot to do with it, they will just warpscram the freighter on the other side. thats alright - if the newb cant get a scout then its his own fault for dying but if the webbing is used and the bumping is fixed then the scout will find the awaiting force - and if its "out of scan range" it wont be able to get there in time.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:19:00 - [155] Bumping should be fixed, that's pretty obvious. Having a shuttle bump a huge ship like a freighter out of alignment is like expecting your rowboat to knock an oil tanker off course. What I want to know is: Why FFS isn't the freighter immune to EW just as all the other cap ships are? You shouldn't be able to scramble them anyway, any more than you can scramble a carrier. --
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:23:00 - [156] Originally by: Drizit What I want to know is: Why FFS isn't the freighter immune to EW just as all the other cap ships are? You shouldn't be able to scramble them anyway, any more than you can scramble a carrier. Carriers can be scrambled.... Only Supercaps are EW immune.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:24:00 - [157] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? No, Jenny Spitfire never had a vagabond bpo - little known secret I sold her some gila BPCs a few weeks before she left and I asked her if she could make me one cheap. She said not to tell anyone (but since she's left...) but she never had a BPO. After that I watched her posts very clearly. She never actually states "I have a vagabond bpo". She always defended tech 2 BPO owners, but she never stated that she had one. People assumed and the replies were always "well it's ok for you to say that, because you have a vaga bpo" (or along those lines). She did nothing to deny it, but she never actually stated it either. whoever this character that controls the Jenny Spitfire character, they've ruined it. She stated it quite a few times actually. With the first post on the subject from her being: 'I now have a Vagabond BPO' (not an exact quote) well I'll admit I've not read all of her posts. But no, she didn't have one. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot. Nice Isk. I'll take it.
Hashi Lebwohl Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:59:00 - [158] I can only assume that freighters vulnerability is by design. When making the change so that they drop loot, CCP did not: 1) make cargo scanning a hostile act 2) remove Insurance for Concord deaths 3) stop the practice of bumping 4) give freighters any slots or rigs 5) fixed the drones continuing to stop firing Or anything else that would allow a metagame to exist - you see a freighter and you know pretty much all its strengths and weaknesses - the rest is maths and a bit of practice on the test server. As no sensible in-game response is available the lateral thinking freighter pilot needs to take advantage of CCP's weakness in database overload in high occupancy systems. Namely, the freighter pilot needs to take literally thousands of items with them - empty out that hangar with npc low stuff, use all those bookmarks you'll never use again etc and fill a freighter can with it. Why? 1) When someone cargo scans you he'll lag out completely as the server tries to send him details of thousands of items; 2) If they pop you there is a tiny chance that of the 50% that drops anything good will be amoungst it; 3) That number of items suddenly being available in space is going to be unfriendly on the node - already taxed as it will be by Concord it has just spawn for your killers - I suspect that CCP it this case would have a routine to truncate the number of items dropped (like they do for kill mails) meaning that the chance the the good stuff survives is even smaller. So the freigher can - your insurance package (or should I say payload).
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:11:00 - [159] The playerbase who still do not believe that freighters should have some defensive slots, let me tell you a fairy tale. It's called the "Ganker's new ship". A long time ago, two Devs met an eVe ganker and asked him what he wanted. The ganker said, he wanted a new ship. The Devs told the ganker, they would made him a new 5000 m3 ship and it would be the best combat ship ever. But the ganker would have to work with the Devs at every development stage of the new ship. Every time the ganker tried out the new ship, he couldn't F1, F2, F3, ... and kill his target. He went back to the Devs and complained that his ship couldn't pew pew. The Devs told him, that was impossible and when he did F1, F2, F3, ... his target instantaneously obliterated. What he saw was just lag because the ship was no longer there. The ganker said, "Crikey!" At the second testing, the ganker did the same thing and the two Devs told him, the target got popped. It went on until the new ship was released to the ganker. The ganker was so happy and went to grief a hauler. When he tried to F1, F2, F3, ... he found himself in a new clone because the hauler pewed pewed on him. The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:51:00 - [160] First off, Attacking an UNARMED ship is not PVP it's ganking. Pretending that your a PVPer does not make you one, actualy every real PVP should be taking offence at this. And yes tankers and even vacation cruse liners do arm them selves in RL so the not armed bit doesnt hold water. Also anyone that played any other space based games (freelancer) knows that not only are the freighters armed but heavly armored, they are also by design very hard to sink unless you have a critical structural falure a freighter could loose half of it's compartments and still remain a float, IE: a space freighter, because of it's compartments, can loose up to half it's stucture and still fly. If you can fit 8 hight slots on a destroyer you can on a freighter. Actually there is no reasion why a freighter does not have 3,5,8 slots. So the low slots can be expanders, reps, armor or bulkheads or dare I say Overdrives. Keep in mind that everything you add reflects on the speed and handeling of the freighter. Adding expanders slows the ship as does armor and bulkheads. Adding overdrives will speed up the ship at the cost of cargo space. Why can you have a shield on everything from a frig to a titan but not on a freighter? also Turrets are externally mounted, what you cant find room on a freighter to mount one? And WTH is there no drone bay, what no room avalible? So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, Heck I would have no prob even allowing the freighter to mount a Miner II if they wanted, since the only way to add cargo is at stations. OH,,, maybe they would mount remote reps and armor/shield rep drones and follow a group in to DS areas. Sure some people who forget that it would be usless, may try it once... Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:25:00 - [161] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire No argument what so ever. So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal First off, Attacking an UNARMED ship is not PVP it's ganking. Pretending that your a PVPer does not make you one, actualy every real PVP should be taking offence at this. It's PvP because it's a question of competition between players. Saying it's not PvP is pretty silly tbh. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal And yes tankers and even vacation cruse liners do arm them selves in RL so the not armed bit doesnt hold water. You know, I've worked at a cruise liner so I know how they arm themselves. We had a bunch of guns locked away and a few water-cannons (yeah) for use on the potential pirates. Thing is, it was pretty much stated that we where to cooperate with the pirates and not defend ourselves, so the weapons where mostly for show. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Also anyone that played any other space based games (freelancer) knows that not only are the freighters armed but heavly armored, they are also by design very hard to sink unless you have a critical structural falure a freighter could loose half of it's compartments and still remain a float, IE: a space freighter, because of it's compartments, can loose up to half it's stucture and still fly. Welcome to EvE, the game that is not in any way affiliated with Freelancer. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal If you can fit 8 hight slots on a destroyer you can on a freighter. Actually there is no reasion why a freighter does not have 3,5,8 slots. So the low slots can be expanders, reps, armor or bulkheads or dare I say Overdrives. Keep in mind that everything you add reflects on the speed and handeling of the freighter. Adding expanders slows the ship as does armor and bulkheads. Adding overdrives will speed up the ship at the cost of cargo space. It's a balance issue, can't you see that? You get insane amounts of cargo space. The trade off is that you can't defend yourself, but must rely on others to do that for you. Give a freighter slots and you'll have a majorly imbalanced creation. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Why can you have a shield on everything from a frig to a titan but not on a freighter? also Turrets are externally mounted, what you cant find room on a freighter to mount one? Again, balance. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal And WTH is there no drone bay, what no room avalible? I hate to repeat myself. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Heck I would have no prob even allowing the freighter to mount a Miner II if they wanted, since the only way to add cargo is at stations. OH,,, maybe they would mount remote reps and armor/shield rep drones and follow a group in to DS areas. Sure some people who forget that it would be usless, may try it once... Surely you can see a problem with a freighter that could be used for mining? I mean, seriously... No, I'll give you an F and ask you to try again. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:29:00 - [162] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? Are you going to shoot back at ONE ship, and not even kill it? Are you going to jam ONE ship, while 39 others shoot at you? ECM Burst in empire? Concord will just join in with killing you if you hit anything other than a hostile ship with it. Smartbombs? Same thing. Armor reps are basically useless against that firepower. Same with shield reps. That's providing you even have any capacitor to use them, which 40 ships with nos will have no problem handling. The ONLY module which may help you is a damage control module, but then we're talking about a seriously overpowered defensive setup if you suddenly need to do a quarter million damage to destroy a freighter. Oh wait, you don't want fair defenses. You want invulnerability.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:31:00 - [163] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:34:00 - [164] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. Freighters have a great defense - Concord. When is the last time you saw a freighter that was actually in a corp that was wardecable? Now shooting at something that can't defend itself is not my cup of tea. Give them defenses,weapons and then make them unflyable if you are in an NPC corp.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:34:00 - [165] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. You may read my posts for my arguments. I don't see them as broken. You do. I respect your opinion although I think it's wrong. I don't think you're deluding yourself. I just think you're wrong. You're attitude of "anyone who disagrees with me must be less intelligent" is pretty annoying. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:36:00 - [166] Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:37:00 - [167] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:38:00 - [168] Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:35:06 Originally by: Siege Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we? Nono, she's worried that someone may be able to organize 30 'griefers', and they most likely will now that she's painted a big fat target on herself /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:35:06 Originally by: Siege Then, we don't have any problem now to begin with, do we? Nono, she's worried that someone may be able to organize 30 'griefers', and they most likely will now that she's painted a big fat target on herself /Ki Quite true, I still have yet to see anybody in this thread admit to having lost a freighter yet. Typical crying about a POTENTIAL situation that may occur a couple times a week among a player base of 150,000.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:45:00 - [170] Originally by: Ki An You may read my posts for my arguments. I don't see them as broken. You do. I respect your opinion although I think it's wrong. I don't think you're deluding yourself. I just think you're wrong. You're attitude of "anyone who disagrees with me must be less intelligent" is pretty annoying. /Ki And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Slash Harnet Minmatar Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:45:00 - [171] Originally by: SiJira - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction Bumping is the largest exploit that isn't an exploit IMO. Fixing that would solve a ton of problems, including the freighter issue. signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:48:00 - [172] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:52:00 - [173] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:48:46 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki At least my toon is much older than yours so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they will never have any slot at all! --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:53:00 - [174] Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:49:18 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire At least my toon is much older than yous so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they should never have any slot at all! Lol... I think your toon is older than you, tbh /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Wyehr Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:04:00 - [175] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I've also done the web thing and while helpful it is not a sure thing to survive a suicide gank. Don't forget they will be scramming you too. While CONCORD will jam them and stop that they can hold you long enough. The video I saw on a suicide gank of a freighter the freighter went down in 12 seconds. Heck, have a few people in newbie frig with a scram on them added to your gang. Have them cycle a scram once each second on the freighter. Lag and CONCORD response time will not prevent the freighter from being scrammed till it is dead. I'm sick of the 12 second thing. It took at least 33 seconds to pop the freighter in Outbreak's Karma video. [ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:50:00 - [176] Originally by: SiJira two things that actually need to be done one is by CCP - change mass and bump mechanics so a small newb ship cant make the freighter get out of alignment - thats like an anchovy swimming into a whale and making it change direction one is by the players -have a freighter ready where the load needs to be picked up a day or two early - that way anyone looking for juicy freighters will only have time to get you on your way out - and with the proposed FIX of bumps would allow you to warp out (when webbed) quickly. Actually it'd be more like firing a baseball out of a cannon into a linebacker. Sure that linebacker's big, but that baseball's moving fast and he's going to get move by the impact. Also, if they fix physics, then the first thing I'm doing, is getting this char into a Caldari BS, loading it up with mods and a MWD, and ramming my main's pod a few dozen times. Then he'll have a nice Safespot a few million AU away.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:02:00 - [177] Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, Mining? Yes, fit cargo expanders and you never have to worry about using cans, ever. You can get over 80,000m3 on a revelation with 8 t2 expanders and cargo rigs. Gate Camping? See below. PvP? Oh absolutely. Lets not forget that a Capital can do what no BS or CS can do: Tank concord, kill them, then dock. CCP expressly do not want capitals in highsec. I know for a fact that only Chribba's Revelation, and another player's Phoenix in Sobaseki, are the only two exceptions orginally, however a few groups took advantage of a flaw in the highsec POSes and chruned out quite a few more highsec capships, every last one of them should be put into lowsec. MAYBE spare Chribba and the Phoenix. Now, try to grasp this: no slots, no dronebay, if you have slots and dronebay, you lose god knows how much space from the ship that has to go to systems and equipment used with those slots and bays. If ANY slot is ever given to a freighter it should lose atleast 25% of the cargo hold. You can then fit an expander, or a DCU (or whatever). IF you don't like it, ohwell. Freighters are going to be big, slow, and juicy targets, suicide ganking will only go away when CCP either sells out, or sells EVE to someone else.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:05:00 - [178] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:06:00 - [179] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. How much ISK are you willing to lose on that bet?
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:10:00 - [180] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:48:46 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And what contents do any of your posts have? Oh wait, nothing but flames. 1: You're ideas are laughable and should be flamed. 2: If you can't read the contents because you whince at being flamed, I can't help you. 3: Learn to play. /Ki At least my toon is much older than yours so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they will never have any slot at all! 1. Your character age means nothing. 2. You are not bugs bunny or Courage the Cowardly Dog (might be wrong on this one), you are not a toon. 3. You will still whine if a dev posts here and tells you they are not broken by design and are meant to have no slots, as they are clearly not meant to have slots, look at their pg and cpu.

Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:12:00 - [181] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:15:00 - [182] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. How much ISK are you willing to lose on that bet? I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:36:00 - [183] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. Because MS/Titan/Carrier are not industrial ships, the Frieghter is. You trying to compare a Titan to a Frieghter is like trying to compare a sniper BS to an interceptor. And even if you compare the cargo space of the freighter to other capships, guess what? Freighter still trumps them, can go into highsec, and is dozens of times cheaper than a MS or Titan. Also, MS and Titan are super capitals. Of all ships that do not have a ship array (ms/ttan/carrier), the Revelation is the most cargo-capable ship, with around 83,000 m3 if you have 8 t2 expanders, and 3(if they fit) t2 cargo rigs. That is still > 10% of a freighter's possible cargo space. Why don't we do some industrial comparisons? Freighter vs t2 expanded/rigged t1/2t2 indies. You'll find around a 20x greater cargospace in the frieghter. Do Dreads have 20x the firepower of a BS or CBC? Hell no, outside of seigemode they have less DPS (excluding the moros with its broken drone bonuses). Do they have 20x the tanking? They can in siegemode with the proper setup, if you exclude anything better than T2 for the BS, and if you exclude rigs for the BS, because a hyp with armor rigs and only T2, can be a sick little puppy.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:39:00 - [184] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. They simply need to fix the issue of CONCORD paying insurance to criminals, which has been suggested for a long time, probably before you bought that char.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:53:00 - [185] See sig - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:07:00 - [186] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/04/2007 23:03:39 Originally by: Wyehr I'm sick of the 12 second thing. It took at least 33 seconds to pop the freighter in Outbreak's Karma video. Need to read the thread more closely. On page 4, post #104 I already admitted I got that wrong and corrected myself to the 33 seconds it took.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:56:00 - [187] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. Are you stupid or something? This was already resolved a few pages back. Bring 5 BS with 8 large remote reps and you completely negate the DPS from 20 domis.
Miz Cenuij OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:18:00 - [188] LOL @ this thread. Leave frieghters as they are and keep insurance. STOP your whing you empire carebears scum, i hope you all get WTF owned. Whoever has the co-ordination to plan these attacks PWNS and should be proud of themselves. Fairplay lads, gut those fat lazy empire pigs like the inbred scum they are. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:23:00 - [189] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The playerbase who still do not believe that freighters should have some defensive slots, let me tell you a fairy tale. It's called the "Ganker's new ship". A long time ago, two Devs met an eVe ganker and asked him what he wanted. The ganker said, he wanted a new ship. The Devs told the ganker, they would made him a new 5000 m3 ship and it would be the best combat ship ever. But the ganker would have to work with the Devs at every development stage of the new ship. Every time the ganker tried out the new ship, he couldn't F1, F2, F3, ... and kill his target. He went back to the Devs and complained that his ship couldn't pew pew. The Devs told him, that was impossible and when he did F1, F2, F3, ... his target instantaneously obliterated. What he saw was just lag because the ship was no longer there. The ganker said, "Crikey!" At the second testing, the ganker did the same thing and the two Devs told him, the target got popped. It went on until the new ship was released to the ganker. The ganker was so happy and went to grief a hauler. When he tried to F1, F2, F3, ... he found himself in a new clone because the hauler pewed pewed on him. The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. Risk vs Reward You're risking taking billions worth of goods to a destination. Your reward is actually gettin them there. Freighters are NOT meant to be immune to ever thing out there. If you're willing to fly it without any type of escort or scout then you should be ready to loose it all. --
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:33:00 - [190] There is no logical reason for Industrials to have as few mids or low slots as they do. There is always room, and no weapons to take up powergrid or CPU. They should be the hardest nuts to *****, and some should be able to run goods in and out of low sec and stay in one piece. Cause you know Amamake has the best prices for Frozen Food but nobody buys it there cause no amount of frozen food is worth the risk of a ship.

Exortius Amarrus The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:39:00 - [191] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) I was thinking the same thing. ------------------------
Ragornok Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:46:00 - [192] Originally by: Mighty Dread There is no logical reason for Industrials to have as few mids or low slots as they do. But we are talking about Freighters, not Industrials. Different beasts.
w0rmy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:03:00 - [193] Originally by: Plutoinum Originally by: w0rmy You can run 4 remote armour reps non stop in a scimitar or Oneiros Dont fly amarr so dont know bout that one. Remote armor reps on a scimitar sounds weird. Mine has lower cap consumption with shield transporters ( ... and a tracking link efficiency bonus, if I remember it right.) It's able to run 3 large shield transporter and one medium non-stop. Ahhh yeah, got mixed up. Meant shield transfers. Either way, logistic ships dont have a cap problem. Either wy, logistic ships dont have a cap problem :) Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
w0rmy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:06:00 - [194] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. EVE is a multiplayer game. That is your deterent. If youre flying with a few billion in cargo, get your mates in logistic ships to escort you. Or will that effect your ability to play even on easy mode? Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:26:00 - [195] Edited by: SiJira on 01/05/2007 03:22:57 Originally by: Slash Harnet Bumping is the largest exploit that isn't an exploit IMO. Fixing that would solve a ton of problems, including the freighter issue. SO TRUE Originally by: Namingway Actually it'd be more like firing a baseball out of a cannon into a linebacker. Sure that linebacker's big, but that baseball's moving fast and he's going to get move by the impact. Also, if they fix physics, then the first thing I'm doing, is getting this char into a Caldari BS, loading it up with mods and a MWD, and ramming my main's pod a few dozen times. Then he'll have a nice Safespot a few million AU away. im pretty sure a baseball compared to a linebackker has a much better ratio than a lil frigate vs a mostly filled freighter
Fugitive Blue	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:44:00 - [196] Speaking from experience. My freighter was attacked near Jita by 19 ships. The gank was unsuccessful but it still cost me isk to repair it's structure. The main issue here is risk/reward. A well organized gank squads risks little for so much potential gain. Even if they make no gain it still costs the freighter pilot isk with the potential to lose multiple billions for no real cost to the gankers. I am a hard-core PVP pilot and could easily bring our corp into empire and kill multiple freighters per hour if we so chose to. There is NO risk to the attackers and no real defense. (Forget scouting, you could just put cloakers on the domis since you don't really use the high slots or use a whole lot of other basic PVP tactics) The answer is to balance the risk and the reward. My two suggestions are simple and they have already been mentioned many times: 1 Give the freighter at least one low slot to fit a Damage mod or a hull repairer 2 Raise the cost of ganking by refusing to pay insurance (this is just a good business decision) I know our corp would not go into empire to gank defenseless freighters but if we wanted to get some quick isk this would be an easy route. The main issue here is RISK/REWARD
Lygos Amarr Insane Asylum	Posted - 2007.05.01 06:38:00 - [197] Hmmmm.. Ok, how about a logistics ship gang bonus that prevents cargo scanning. The catch is that it only affects gang members that are in the same corp, and not in npc corps. Or just don't worry about it. --- Articio > Well, at least I don't have to grind back security status.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:28:00 - [198] Originally by: Fugitive Blue The main issue here is RISK/REWARD Wait a minute. You just described a suicide gank that went wrong, costing the agressors hundreds of millions for no gain, and you still complain about risk vs reward? Once again: The agressors lost hundreds of millions. You had to repair your ship (or not, it's up to you really). They lost, you won. Seems here we have proof positive that there is risk to the agressors. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:37:00 - [199] Can people stop overusing the word griefing, it's really annoying. If you get killed in a pvp game, it's called getting killed, not griefing. Griefing is when someone hassles and chases you and tries to disrupt only you, avoiding all other target's just to make you and only you unhappy, for an extended period of time, not one death, but non stop And if the freighter is carrying fat lootz, why not give it an escort of ship's that can remote rep? Or is that too sensible and obvious.... BoB vs the coalition of family value's
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:55:00 - [200] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 01/05/2007 07:54:05 Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:49:18 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire At least my toon is much older than yous so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they should never have any slot at all! Lol... I think your toon is older than you, tbh /Ki lol nice one :) Jenny epeeing with your char's age and your experience coming with it is quite rediculous tbh. But I gotta say, your arguments provide quite an amusement.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:04:00 - [201] Ok, I've been musing over this issue and thought I'd post a small essay on it, mostly in the form of a discussion. Problem Freighters are now fat targets in high security space. This begs the question, would this still be seen as a problem if it was only possible in low security space? I'd say 'no', because low security space is supposed to be dangerous, right? Now then, let's discuss the differences between the same occurance in two areas of space separated with security status: Game mechanics of the gank: Low sec vs High sec In low security space, a freighter encountering 30 domis at a gate is in serious trouble. What can he do to protect himself? - Use a scout. Not 100%, but still a good security measure. - Bring an escort. Well, the problem is that as soon as the enemy domis are through with the freighter, they'll start beating on the escort, so you're gonna need about 30 escorts yourself. Then what are the options in high security? - Use a scout. Not 100%, but still a good security measure. - Bring an escort. This escort is not for engaging the enemy, but to repair their ward. Possibly, one or two could be used to remove drones from the freighter at the cost of their ship and a chunk of sec status. If the enemy manage to bring down the freighter, the escort now serves as guards for the wreck, as anyone who takes anything from the wreckage will immeditately be flagged to the escort (providing they are in the same corp as the freighter pilot). As an extra bonus, the escort is untouchable to the aggressors if they don't want to bring aditional ships to suicide them as well. Concluding this line of reasoning, high security seem to offer better options regarding freighter security than low security. Then what is the real problem? It seems to me that the problem is a falsely percieved sense of security when being in high sec space. It seems no-one expects anything bad to be able to happen there. It is time to re-evaluate that notion, because high security space is as dangerous as low security space. The difference is that it takes more co-ordination from the agressor to reach his goal in high security. With the recent changes of freighters, the motivation for that has arrived. Then what can be done to counter this? Well, this thread discusses a number of options, none of them 100% guaranteed of success. Use a scout. Use remote repping BS's as escorts. Bring a couple of smart-bombing BS's to remove drones. Bring a couple of combat BS's to guard the wreck. The bottom line is, you can no longer expect to be safe while piloting your freighter alone, even in high security space. You have to organize a thourough defence when transporting valuable things, and it is much easier to do this in a player corp than in an NPC corp. Freighters are no longer invulnerable cash-cows. They are now prime targets, and you will have to adapt and co-operate in order to protect your investment. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:07:00 - [202] Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:12:00 - [203] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? wth its already been discussed --it wouldnt do any good hence waste of time coding -cargo expanders? -variation in base cargo space ? --it was designed to be this way? --exploits of nanos etc? --you will still get ganked it just make take 2-3 more people to kill you seriously dont buy someones character and then pretend you know anything about the game
Jessica Lorelei Minmatar Vitae Mecha	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:27:00 - [204] Edited by: Jessica Lorelei on 01/05/2007 08:27:06 Originally by: Miz Cenuij LOL @ this thread. Leave frieghters as they are and keep insurance. STOP your whing you empire carebears scum, i hope you all get WTF owned. Whoever has the co-ordination to plan these attacks PWNS and should be proud of themselves. Fairplay lads, gut those fat lazy empire pigs like the inbred scum they are. No more inbred than giving all your loot to Ginger though eh? ;P Industrialists and traders (I wont get into the carebear/not carebear debate here) are quite industrious, they make lots of isk through non violent means, and this makes them lazy? They cant be that lazy or you wouldnt want the stuff they earn so badly so you dont have to earn it yourself For the record, i think ganking freighters is a good way to make isk, ruin rivals and so on, i dont see it as griefing, unless its done within the confines of the 'greifing' definition. I do agree something needs to be done about the defenslessness of frieghters, i think a good point was raised that being killed by concord should void your insurance, its a sensible idea, as is using logistics on the freighter,scouts etc. Low slots are a bad idea, for the reasons already stated, hi-slots hmm not really usefull, unless you want a salvaging, tractor beaming freighter to scoop up a dead freighter carcass and its contents, the mid slots however, could concievably have some kind of shield tank though not necessary, i dont think that jammers etc. would be such a good idea, frieghters are slow enough without getting stuck at gates for aggression. edit Thought of something else to post. -NEVER CONFUSE OPINNION WITH FACT-
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:46:00 - [205] "- Bring an escort. Well, the problem is that as soon as the enemy domis are through with the freighter, they'll start beating on the escort, so you're gonna need about 30 escorts yourself." Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:56:00 - [206] Originally by: Malcanis Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter? Please read the post again, and more thouroughly this time. I was arguing about the situation should it occur in low sec in the part you quoted. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:08:00 - [207] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? because it would boost a ship already powerful to shrug off 19 battleships, something no ship less than a mothership can do. Invulnerable freighters would be a terrible thing for the game. Tell me, do you actually have evidence at all of Freighters being griefed? (And by "griefed" I mean attacked & destroyed just for fun, not "attacked"; remember that non-consensual combat is explicitly a part of the game by intentional design)
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:16:00 - [208] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Malcanis Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter? Please read the post again, and more thouroughly this time. I was arguing about the situation should it occur in low sec in the part you quoted. /Ki Oops, you're right. So.... large slow cargo ships are vulnerable in lo-sec when weakly escorted? Man, I hope no pirates find out about this...
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:22:00 - [209] Originally by: Malcanis So.... large slow cargo ships are vulnerable in lo-sec when weakly escorted? Man, I hope no pirates find out about this... Hehe, yeah. Serves as a good comparison in the point I was trying to make though. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
hairy minky	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:27:00 - [210] I've got a rather nice target I've been waiting to settle a score with :) I'm sorting out a merc corp to suicide a freighter, I'll be paying for all their losses. and the loot, lets just say the target regularly has over 5 bill in his cargo This is going to be a common theme soon I should guess, but for now while it's in the game mechanics I shall be taking advatage of this.

Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:41:00 - [211] Stupid ideia OP. people would and will suicide even if you have 8 low slots and 8 mediums ,dont you get it ?If you are doing that runs alone you deserved to be killed . High-sec griefing?Lol ........ I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Omak Topal Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:59:00 - [212] Edited by: Omak Topal on 01/05/2007 09:58:06 Edited by: Omak Topal on 01/05/2007 09:56:02 its like POSs with guns, and other defense structures. if the enemey wants to put the POS in reinforced, they will. no matter how much resistance or guns you put on it. the same will go for freighters, no ammount of lowslots/medslots will make a differnce, it will just mean that the group attacking needs to be somewhat larger and do more dmg before being shot by concord, the freighter will still get killed. learn to live with the idea that you may loose it i guess. ------ <imagen a verry nice graphical signature here>
Whineroy	Posted - 2007.05.01 10:11:00 - [213] Originally by: Miz Cenuij LOL @ this thread. Leave frieghters as they are and keep insurance. STOP your whing you empire carebears scum, i hope you all get WTF owned. Whoever has the co-ordination to plan these attacks PWNS and should be proud of themselves. Fairplay lads, gut those fat lazy empire pigs like the inbred scum they are. LOL, an Octobersnow ganker-****er nerd whining about "carebears". Haven't you managed to camp enough newbies lately or something ? Grow a pair and head to 0.0 to fight against foes who actually can fight back, carebear.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 10:49:00 - [214] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) Yeah I think you might be right. The Jenny I knew would'nt be such a carebear. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 12:24:00 - [215] Originally by: Omak Topal the same will go for freighters, no ammount of lowslots/medslots will make a differnce, it will just mean that the group attacking needs to be somewhat larger and do more dmg before being shot by concord, the freighter will still get killed. learn to live with the idea that you may loose it i guess. Therefore freighters do not deserve any slot at all? I find that weak. CCP might as well give 0 m3 cargo space to battleships because they are not supposed to haul expensive cargo. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 12:43:00 - [216] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Therefore freighters do not deserve any slot at all? I find that weak. CCP might as well give 0 m3 cargo space to battleships because they are not supposed to haul expensive cargo. You have been explained to, again and again, why it is a bad idea to give slots to freighters, and also that it won't do any good in a suicide gank situation, and still you bring it up... Are you really not understanding this, or do you have trouble reading the replies? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Howling Jinn Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.	Posted - 2007.05.01 12:48:00 - [217] why not give freigthers the hp boost every other ship had?
Augeas	Posted - 2007.05.01 13:14:00 - [218] Quote: Are you stupid or something? This was already resolved a few pages back. Bring 5 BS with 8 large remote reps and you completely negate the DPS from 20 domis. End of pathetic whiny thread. Please.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:08:00 - [219] I really don't care what the previous 8 pages said, because the thread is wrong from the title: Piracy of Freighters is, by definition, not griefing. It is done for profit. Not MY way of making profit, but someone elses. And it's not like it's inevitable, a decent escort sorts you out in no time.
mmm cheese	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:18:00 - [220] Always loads going through Uedama AFK

Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:29:00 - [221] Edited by: Korizan on 01/05/2007 14:28:45 This is really not about feighters but SUICIDE ganking in general and is strickly a high sec issue. Suicide Ganking is and always has been a contriversal topic. Be it a miner,hauler or now a freighter the bottom line there is no way to prevent in from happening in high sec. There is no fix without radically changing the game so it just won't happen. The closest and the only thing I have heard is the removal of insurance pay outs for a suicide. IE if you get concorded no insurance payout period. But as it has not happened and I doubt it ever will. CCP stated that there intent was to make freighters lootable. This I agree with. So lets talk about it real issue SUICIDE GANKING if you want and lets get off the freighters.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:32:00 - [222] Originally by: Korizan This is really not about feighters but SUICIDE ganking in general and is strickly a high sec issue. Suicide Ganking is and always has been a contriversal topic. Be it a miner,hauler or now a freighter the bottom line there is no way to prevent in from happening in high sec. There is no fix without radically changing the game so it just won't happen. The closest and the only thing I have heard is the removal of insurance pay outs for a suicide. IE if you get concorded no insurance payout period. Sighs... What about all the counters mentioned in this thread? Have you even tried those? There are counters for suicide ganking. The only reason it exists is that people are too lazy to use the counters, or too secure in the notion that high sec space is "safe". /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:34:00 - [223] Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 01/05/2007 14:28:45 This is really not about feighters but SUICIDE ganking in general and is strickly a high sec issue. Suicide Ganking is and always has been a contriversal topic. Be it a miner,hauler or now a freighter the bottom line there is no way to prevent in from happening in high sec. There is no fix without radically changing the game so it just won't happen. The closest and the only thing I have heard is the removal of insurance pay outs for a suicide. IE if you get concorded no insurance payout period. But as it has not happened and I doubt it ever will. CCP stated that there intent was to make freighters lootable. This I agree with. So lets talk about it real issue SUICIDE GANKING if you want and lets get off the freighters. For the last ******* time. Bring a scout, bring remote repping BSes numbering 1/4 the number of attackers, problem solved.
Proton Power Amarr Power Corrupts Tech Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:58:00 - [224] So what your saying is every time I go to move anything worth 1bil isk I need to get an escort in Empire now. I think to many PVP'ers are in this thread, as a PVP'er I would say the same thing, but from running a industrial corp I would disagree. Most traders and industrialists are very small groups of people or even solo. They now have no chance with freighters. I dont mind suiciding freighters, but this does need to be looked at a little more, maybe give more shields or armor per lvl of freighter skill or somthing. Just somthing ot keep the gankers guessing what they need to effectivly kill the freighter and make it where a freighter with max skills needs atleast 40 bs's to suicide it to make the loss value on each side equall. ----------------------------------------------- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:12:00 - [225] Originally by: Proton Power So what your saying is every time I go to move anything worth 1bil isk I need to get an escort in Empire now. I think to many PVP'ers are in this thread, as a PVP'er I would say the same thing, but from running a industrial corp I would disagree. Most traders and industrialists are very small groups of people or even solo. They now have no chance with freighters. I dont mind suiciding freighters, but this does need to be looked at a little more, maybe give more shields or armor per lvl of freighter skill or somthing. Just somthing ot keep the gankers guessing what they need to effectivly kill the freighter and make it where a freighter with max skills needs atleast 40 bs's to suicide it to make the loss value on each side equall. You make it look like there will be 10 20man Domi camps on every route in empire and you cant undock anyone... Its not the average pirate corp that'll "camp" highsec with 20 peeps or more to wait for the occasional afking freighter. As well, your stuff might also blow up with you, leaving the gankers with a 400mil loss. A lot of people will think twice before doing this. Last but not least...use a scout which is also webbing you and you are fine.
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:18:00 - [226] You know (Ki An & Gamesguy) I don't see where any of my comments are about work arounds for freighters. In fact that was not even the point of the replie but you 2 obviously miss read. I was just pointing out that everyone seems to be saying change freighters and blah blah blah. The fact of the matter is that the issue of Suicide ganking has been around for a very long time. It has only come back to the front because of the recent changes to freighters. And it is my opinion that Suicide Ganking is the real issue not freighters and the design / setups per say. However. 1. It seems most posters on this forum DO NOT want changes because they use this tactic personnally. 2. Those that DO want it changed probably fall in the victem category. And then there are the 0.0 poster who to be frank have little to no stake in it at all and find it amusing because carebears are getting what is coming to them because they are not in 0.0 with the rest. Then there are others like myself who would prefer to talk about a subject objectively rather then listen to a bunch of people talking like they have never left the second grade and take everything as a personnal attack.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:29:00 - [227] Originally by: Korizan You know (Ki An & Gamesguy) I don't see where any of my comments are about work arounds for freighters. In fact that was not even the point of the replie but you 2 obviously miss read. I was just pointing out that everyone seems to be saying change freighters and blah blah blah. You stated quite clearly that you couldn't see any ways to make a freighter defendable, and that removing insurance was the closest and best way to go. I pointed out that there are lots of ways to defend a freighter, and that you should simply put more effort into it. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I can only call 'em as I see 'em. Originally by: Korizan The fact of the matter is that the issue of Suicide ganking has been around for a very long time. It has only come back to the front because of the recent changes to freighters. And it is my opinion that Suicide Ganking is the real issue not freighters and the design / setups per say. Yes, it would seem that that is what people whine about now. Like you say, it's been around forever, and it's not likely to disappear, so I guess people had better get used to it and act accordingly. Originally by: Korizan However. 1. It seems most posters on this forum DO NOT want changes because they use this tactic personnally. 2. Those that DO want it changed probably fall in the victem category. And then there are the 0.0 poster who to be frank have little to no stake in it at all and find it amusing because carebears are getting what is coming to them because they are not in 0.0 with the rest. Then there are others like myself who would prefer to talk about a subject objectively rather then listen to a bunch of people talking like they have never left the second grade and take everything as a personnal attack. How convenient that you put yourself in the "objective" cathegory and generalize about all others. I myself have never suicide ganked anything (Ok, I once attacked a covetor in a tristan, but that was just for kicks. Got blown up real good, and hardly dented the ships shields), so that means I must be objective too, right? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jelek Coro Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:38:00 - [228] Too many empire carebears crying wolf when there isn't a problem... Perhaps they will learn to work as team in a ... corp!!! Plenty of solutions given... if someone really wants to blow a freighter, you are not going to stop them if they bring the firepower. Same with everything.
BigDave F.S.O.	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:47:00 - [229] Wow... just, WOW. Jenny Spitfire was one of the few forum personalities I could respect, as she always seemed to have the right perspective on things. "New Jenny" is a disgrace to memories of the old. To quote Jenny of yore: ADAPT. ----- Dang, signatures keep getting smaller and smaller, unless you count the bits where ISD colors outside the lines...
Jonathan Xavier Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:56:00 - [230] Edited by: Jonathan Xavier on 01/05/2007 15:52:43 Personally I am in support of the additional low and midslot idea proposed by Jenny and others. To those thinking that it wouldn't do anything, consider this: the bulk of a freighter's hit points exist in structure. Adding a Damage Control II and a Local Hull Conversion Reinforced Bulkhead (or two) could nearly double the freighter's effective hit points, making killing it a much riskier and more expensive proposition. I feel it would be a fair (and interesting) trade-off for freighter pilots to be able to choose between security and cargo capacity. By reducing the base cargo capacity by an appropriate amount (in line with the number of low slots added) it would give freighter pilots the ability to choose between max cargo and max security setups. For example, when I fly my freighter, there are a lot of times when I am not hauling maximum capacity, and would gladly trade my capacity for additional resistance and structure. Conversely, if I'm only moving tritanium (relatively inexpensive), I would opt instead for maximum cargo volume. Freighters certainly wouldn't be unkillable, but on the other hand, it would make them a lot more secure than they are right now.

Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:11:00 - [231] Not that there is anything wrong with ganking but being able to shoot after concord arive is bypasing game mechanics. Concord jam for a reason and the use of drones bypasses this (so technicaly an exploit). CCP simply need to code in some kind of concord trigger that jams the drones too.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:13:00 - [232] Empire is Lowsec now. Get use to it.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:13:00 - [233] I think CCP is allergic to even looking at drone code, let alone changing it __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:36:00 - [234] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Bingo
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:38:00 - [235] Originally by: Lord Dynastron Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Bingo Could someone please sumarize the ways to defend a freighter (all of which are listed in this thread) for the morons who can't be assed to read the entire thread? I can't deal with people like this anymore... /me goes off to blow something up. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:51:00 - [236] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Dynastron Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Bingo Could someone please sumarize the ways to defend a freighter (all of which are listed in this thread) for the morons who can't be assed to read the entire thread? I can't deal with people like this anymore... /me goes off to blow something up. /Ki Morons? Whatever... If defending freighters with fleets of armor repping battleships is your idea of defense then,, well,, ok.... but think about how many freighters move in out out of Jita a day. Are you seriously saying they each one should carry a fleet of BS around with it. Really? You know full well that that is an option so difficult in practice to pull off that it will not happen regularly. Hmmm,, how many armor repping battleships would that be? Lol,, a number that boggles the mind. Oh,, and sending scouts ahead is not a defense... more of a way to avoid a scenario where a defense would be needed.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 16:53:00 - [237] Originally by: Lord Dynastron If defending freighters with fleets of armor repping battleships is your idea of defense then,, well,, ok.... but think about how many freighters move in out out of Jita a day. Are you seriously saying they each one should carry a fleet of BS around with it. Really? You know full well that that is an option so difficult in practice to pull off that it will not happen regularly. Hmmm,, how many armor repping battleships would that be? Lol,, a number that boggles the mind. I'd say 5 per freighter would suffice. Is that too much? What about the fact that it takes about 30 BSs to take the freighter down? Perhaps we should argue for a reduction in freighter hp as it takes too much effort to suicide them? Originally by: Lord Dynastron Oh,, and sending scouts ahead is not a defense... more of a way to avoid a scenario where a defense would be needed. It's a proactive defense though, isn't it? I mean, you are free to not scout ahead, but then you can't really whine about being suicide ganked. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:04:00 - [238] All this BS drama CCP is creating in high sec, how lame... I can't wait for Infinity. Building the homestead
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:11:00 - [239] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier Lastly, I think being able to get loot from freighters is great. Killing freighters is a huge blow to any corporation. Instead of attacking them in a suicide gank, get them with a wardec. Perhaps put a restriction on ship size for pilots in NPC corps (i.e. NPC corp infrastructure unable to support the undocking procedures and servicing costs of capital ships) would get all freighter pilots into wardeccable corporations. Fine, then if you want to kill a freighter, war dec the corp driving it. Until then, don't make it profitable and easy to kill freighters in high-sec. Now, if the "chance" of getting ganked in a freighter, which hasnt actually happened in any fashion that someone being your average trader needs to worry, already causes people to go bonkers...what do you think happens when NPC corps cant run freighters anymore? I mean I'm all for it, and any alliance out there, or corp, who would consider suicide-ganking someone in a freighter will rather war-dec them and do it the "proper" way.
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:18:00 - [240] Hi sec is hi sec for a reason. If they wanted it to be less safe then 0.0, they wouldn't have made it hi sec. Just because you've found a loophole in the game mechanics, that doesn't somehow magically mean its all ok, and intended. And yes, the use of drones in this case is a loophole in the game mechanics. It evades the heavy jamming concord unleashes. If you deny that, you're just blowing smoke. The arguments I see here from the pro-gank crowd are the same arguments used to justify privateers' massive war dec loophole. Which was then subsequently closed. So I believe I can safely say that this is not the intended state of things, and that those arguments don't carry a lot of weight. There is MEANT to be a separation between Hi sec and Low sec. If you aren't wardecced, you arent supposed to have to mount a 15 ship escort for your freighter in the middle of 1.0 space. Anyone who denies that is just trying to defend their particular little exploit, so they can profit from it, not analyzing it objectively. Calling people carebears isn't a valid argument, its simply ad hominem garbage. There are plenty of fools driving freighters through lowsec and 0.0 without escorts. You don't need hi sec too. If they wont give freighters some way to protect themselves, or close the loophole in Concord protection, then they ought to just remove the loot again. I don't even own a freighter. But when and if I do, I think it'd be nice if i didnt have to call out my entire corp just to run from Ourselaert to Hek. Unless, of course, I was wardecced. But that's a valid game mechanic, unlike the current state of things.

Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:28:00 - [241] Originally by: Ki An It's a proactive defense though, isn't it? I mean, you are free to not scout ahead, but then you can't really whine about being suicide ganked. As has been mentioned many times in this thread there are a number of ways suicide gankers can hide from a scout and still pull off the gank. In fact if the gankers have half a brain that is precisely what they will do rather than advertise themselves sitting on a gate with 20 Domis. As for the contention that the gankers risk 400 mil in losses that glosses over the reality. Yes it is 400 mil in total losses but more like 20-25 mil per individual pilot. Not a nice loss but hardly critical. Compare that to the freighter pilot who is losing a 1+ billion ISK ship. Helluva difference and where risk/reward gets bolloxed up. That is not even counting the cargo. If the gank fails the freighter pilot can easily face a 300 million ISK repair bill because there is no way to repair a freighter's hull except paying a station to do it. Cap ship PvP pilots frequently make the case that for the multi-billion investment their ship should be exceedingly difficult to kill. Apparently when the ship is a carebear ship that notion goes out the window. Also, for the idea that the gankers risk not getting any cargo (or crap loot) because of a chance it gets blown up why do you forget that the freighter pilot just lost their cargo? Likely all of it too (chances are poor they will recover anything left in the wreck). Why is this a risk the ganker takes but not an issue for the freighter that lost a billion in ship plus who knows how much cargo? Remember there are two sides to this coin, two sides that suffer loss.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:32:00 - [242] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer Hi sec is hi sec for a reason. If they wanted it to be less safe then 0.0, they wouldn't have made it hi sec. Just because you've found a loophole in the game mechanics, that doesn't somehow magically mean its all ok, and intended. And yes, the use of drones in this case is a loophole in the game mechanics. It evades the heavy jamming concord unleashes. If you deny that, you're just blowing smoke. The arguments I see here from the pro-gank crowd are the same arguments used to justify privateers' massive war dec loophole. Which was then subsequently closed. So I believe I can safely say that this is not the intended state of things, and that those arguments don't carry a lot of weight. There is MEANT to be a separation between Hi sec and Low sec. If you aren't wardecced, you arent supposed to have to mount a 15 ship escort for your freighter in the middle of 1.0 space. Anyone who denies that is just trying to defend their particular little exploit, so they can profit from it, not analyzing it objectively. Calling people carebears isn't a valid argument, its simply ad hominem garbage. There are plenty of fools driving freighters through lowsec and 0.0 without escorts. You don't need hi sec too. If they wont give freighters some way to protect themselves, or close the loophole in Concord protection, then they ought to just remove the loot again. I don't even own a freighter. But when and if I do, I think it'd be nice if i didnt have to call out my entire corp just to run from Ourselaert to Hek. Unless, of course, I was wardecced. But that's a valid game mechanic, unlike the current state of things. Glad someone said it before I did. I'm sure the people in favor of this 'ganking' as it were will totally ignore a valid point however.
Larshus Magrus Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:34:00 - [243] I fly a freighter. I'm a pvper. I'm not in a NPC corp. I primarily use my freighter to aquire minst o build myself ships, and to move my ships around in empire so that I have they scattered at 0.0 entrance points where I need em. I don't afk my freighter cause I want it to get where its going asap so I can get back to the "fun" of the game. Right now its trivial to gank a freighter with 25 domis. Its NOT trivial to defend a freighter. Come on, the scout thing doesn't work. If you have the ability to get 25 people in domis you sure as hell have the discipline to align and warp. What will I do? Stop flying my freighter around. Simple. No biggie. What will others do? The same thing. Lets think of the consequences. Freighters are often times used to move large amounts of low ends out towards 0.0 so stuff can be built. Guess what happens when you can't move low ends or mid ends around. Prioces of ships go up because you can't gather it all at one place "safely". If You think a ship builder is going to use an industrial to cart around trit you are wrong.. wont take the time or effort to do it for the low profit. ITs the same risk/reward thing. Wont take the risk unless there is a much highter reward. Margin on bs's is perhaps, at best, 5% now. Margin is going to go WAY up. Cost of goods to make is going to go way up. PRoducers will still produce just charge more, or it wont be worth it to produce and they will do something else. End of day, what will happen is stuff will cost alot more. Do I care? Not really. I'll just jack the price on my stuff that I do sell and don't personally use. If it sells, great, if not I wont sell it. I'm not going to lose money thats for sure. I'm chuckling cause the people that are doing this are just going to end up paying more for supplies later on. ITs a self balancing game and if the risk/reward ratio isn't there, it WILL balance itself out by causing the price of goods to rise till the ratio is correct.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:34:00 - [244] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer Hi sec is hi sec for a reason. If they wanted it to be less safe then 0.0, they wouldn't have made it hi sec. Just because you've found a loophole in the game mechanics, that doesn't somehow magically mean its all ok, and intended. And yes, the use of drones in this case is a loophole in the game mechanics. It evades the heavy jamming concord unleashes. If you deny that, you're just blowing smoke. The arguments I see here from the pro-gank crowd are the same arguments used to justify privateers' massive war dec loophole. Which was then subsequently closed. So I believe I can safely say that this is not the intended state of things, and that those arguments don't carry a lot of weight. There is MEANT to be a separation between Hi sec and Low sec. If you aren't wardecced, you arent supposed to have to mount a 15 ship escort for your freighter in the middle of 1.0 space. Anyone who denies that is just trying to defend their particular little exploit, so they can profit from it, not analyzing it objectively. Calling people carebears isn't a valid argument, its simply ad hominem garbage. There are plenty of fools driving freighters through lowsec and 0.0 without escorts. You don't need hi sec too. If they wont give freighters some way to protect themselves, or close the loophole in Concord protection, then they ought to just remove the loot again. I don't even own a freighter. But when and if I do, I think it'd be nice if i didnt have to call out my entire corp just to run from Ourselaert to Hek. Unless, of course, I was wardecced. But that's a valid game mechanic, unlike the current state of things. Sorry, but your full of it friend. 1: High sec. will hardly be less secure than low sec. 2: here are few (if any) fools flying unescorted freighters around 0.0 3: No matter where you are, you never ever take a load valuable enough to justify a suicide gank without taking suitable precautions... I don't care what you are flying. Whether those precautions consist of experienced scouts out in front, or armor/shield boosting ships along side. 0.0 alliances learned this simple fact long ago and use appropriate teamwork in systems of all security levels. That little tidbit is often the main difference between 0.0 corps/alliances and your archtypical "carebear" corp/alliance... that "why should I have to take precautions or work WITH my corp mates" attitude.
Clorthos Gallente Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:38:00 - [245] very simple solution to this Upgrade the freighter to reflect the other capital ship boosts 9 months ago AND allow for fitting slots on a Frieghter, CARGO MODS NOT ALLOWED ( no captial ships transported in highsec via frieghter )... Capital Repper hardeners armor and shield slots, allowing for a cloak slot may be a bit much but I would not mind (no turret slots for mining lasers!!! ) , If you are going to make the ships a target by having them drop loot now, then please allow them to defend themselves as best as possible. The afkers will still be shot and popped the people manning thier computer while running from point a to point b with billions in assets will have some form of self defense, imune no but surely not the sitting duck that 100+ bored domi pilots with 3 1600mm fitted ships will find. that and sucicide gankers are going find that insurance will prolly get voided if you get Koncorded ...
SigmaPi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:45:00 - [246] Jonathan Xavier made an excelent rebuke on page 8, post 240 (i think). He summarized all the suggested counters to high-security freighter ganking, and explained why they are not feasable. Also, explain to me the point in even having "high-security" systems if there is no actual security in it? It should be 100% impossible without a concord sanctioned war to kill anything in high-sec, in my openion. I know I will be flamed for that, but that is the point of high-sec, to feel safe... Anyways, it is my openion that something needs to change to ensure the safety of high-sec. If you want to randomly gank ****, go to low-sec or 0.0... and learn how to actually play the game. /Siggy
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:52:00 - [247] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Dynastron Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Bingo Could someone please sumarize the ways to defend a freighter (all of which are listed in this thread) for the morons who can't be assed to read the entire thread? I can't deal with people like this anymore... /me goes off to blow something up. /Ki Ok - I'll give it a go: Remote repping BS escort - Not practical due to insane cap usage of remote reps. Most battleships will get one, maybe two cycles before they cap out. Can easily be mitgated by the addition of additional ganking BSes. Smartbombing BS escort - Dangerous to the escort pilot, and not guaranteed to work Logistic ship escort - Not everyone has people that can jump in one of these at the drop of a hat. Yes, it is possible to defend freighters in empire. It is just that it is not realistic to do a full corporation escort operation every time the freighter undocks in 1.0 space. The big problem here, is that corporations with no active war decs are forced to escort freighters through high security empire the way that they would through 0.0. With the apparent ease of a freighter gank, there is little difference between bringing a freighter through a busy system in empire or 0.0. As it is right now there are hundreds (or maybe thousands) of mundane frieghter runs done through empire daily, for logistical reasons. Making them all targets will increase the cost of goods for everyone. The risk / reward calculation is totally out of whack for this element of gameplay. A freighter pilot moving simple trade goods or minerals from point A to point B will make only a few percent profit for the several hour trip. While this can be profitable, it can't really afford paying dedicated wingmen for several hours of their time. So get your corpmates to do it! Right, the eight to ten frieghters some larger corporations have running around empire every day just to keep the wheels of a 0.0 corporation greased would mean the corporation would have to live in empire, just to escort its freighters. It's just not practical to require a 5-6 BS escort fleet on every freighter trip through empire. Flying a freighter is boring, arduous work for little pay. It literally is the backbone of the eve economy. By prohibiting frieghters from moving bulk materials and construction parts through empire without tedious escort duty, everything will increase in price. Don't grief the pilots. Lastly, I think being able to get loot from freighters is great. Killing freighters is a huge blow to any corporation. Instead of attacking them in a suicide gank, get them with a wardec. Perhaps put a restriction on ship size for pilots in NPC corps (i.e. NPC corp infrastructure unable to support the undocking procedures and servicing costs of capital ships) would get all freighter pilots into wardeccable corporations. Fine, then if you want to kill a freighter, war dec the corp driving it. Until then, don't make it profitable and easy to kill freighters in high-sec. As I said before, allowing freighters to trade cargo space for security seems like a fair fix to prevent them from being randomly attacked in high-security space by pirates. If you want to make them a bigger target yet, get freighters out of NPC corporations. Okay, have it your way. Lets take a look at this non-sense. Remote repping escort. Is entirely practical. Jonathan obviously has never remote repped anything in his life. Take a look at videos of the last alliance tournament if you have any questions. It is entirely possible to provide an escort for your freighter when it is carrying items of high enough value to make it a profitable target. Freighter ganks are hardly easy, and need to be carefully planned. Your high risk area's will be around major hubs, with little risk elsewhere. Drat, ran out of space.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:57:00 - [248] To sum up, most of his points deal with daily freighter traffic being at risk. It won't of course, it would not be profitable enough to warrant an attack. You can bet your bottom dollar though that 0.0 alliances moving their HIGH VALUE cargo via freighter will indeed have it escorted (effectively I might add) when going through any high risk area (Major trade hubs). Sorry, but this post scores a zero for actually having any facts to back it up. He obviously has had little experience with his subject matter.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:59:00 - [249] Originally by: Ranger 1 Sorry, but your full of it friend. 1: High sec. will hardly be less secure than low sec. 2: here are few (if any) fools flying unescorted freighters around 0.0 3: No matter where you are, you never ever take a load valuable enough to justify a suicide gank without taking suitable precautions... I don't care what you are flying. Whether those precautions consist of experienced scouts out in front, or armor/shield boosting ships along side. 0.0 alliances learned this simple fact long ago and use appropriate teamwork in systems of all security levels. That little tidbit is often the main difference between 0.0 corps/alliances and your archtypical "carebear" corp/alliance... that "why should I have to take precautions or work WITH my corp mates" attitude. I've done 0.0 runs and indeed a freighter should NEVER go below 0.5 without a hefty escort. Of course you know the cargo ship of choice in 0.0 is now a carrier, not a freighter. Those times when a freighter is used are relatively few and far between. Generally a massive haul is organized with several freighters and a massive escort fleet. Done once a month or so no biggie and even kind of fun. What you are missing is the volumes of goods that need to be moved around Empire are FAR higher than needed in 0.0. Ever try running a serious production line? One of the most difficult aspects (or at least time consuming) is maintaining a supply of mats for its operation. It is a near constant effort. Expecting to find 5+ mates to guard your ship day-in and day-out is very difficult...even for massive industrial corps. As for not putting enough material in cargo on a freighter to keep it below ganking profitability is terrible. It is trivially easy to cross that threshold with a hold full of most anything beyond Tritanium. You are essentially saying do not use a freighter for its intended purpose. I do not understand the PvPers hatred of "carebears". I'd be curious to know how many of these PvPers who ooze sarcasm have flown a freighter. Not just flown one but had to fly one daily for weeks. A freighter they themselves dropped their own 1 billion ISK on and then emptied their wallet of another 2 billion for a cargo run. Freighters were not AFK ISK printing machines. They are a tool. Carebears often put in a great deal of work to be traders or builders. The moving stuff around part is just the mechanics...the effort comes before you ever fill the cargo hold and I'll stack up their effort at playing EVE against a Mothership camping a low sec gate and smartbombing shuttles anyday. And once again with the socut thing...they are easily bypassed by a semi-savvy gank group.
Jonathan Xavier Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:01:00 - [250] Edited by: Jonathan Xavier on 01/05/2007 17:58:52 Ranger 1, First off, I have remote repaired things. My point focused around the infeasibility of having 8 remote reppers on a single BS, as had been suggested earlier in the thread. Most battleships can support running one large repairer for some time, supplemented by NOS. However, none can run 8 for more than a cycle or two as I pointed out in my previous post. Secondly, keep in mind that most freighters only fly between hub systems (the "higher danger" areas as you put it). It is simply not profitable to fly your freighter through backwater systems. Also, to contend that you shouldn't put anything of value in the freighter is not very well thought out either. The freighter itself is worth nearly 1 billion isk. A 400M loss by griefers or enemies still puts them 600M ahead of the game attacking an EMPTY freigher. If the goal is not to make personal profit, but rather to inflict financial damage on a corporation or alliance the metric changes substantially. To say that I don't have much experiance in the matter only highlights your own ignorance.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:07:00 - [251] Someone said that freighters should not be allowed in NPC corps. If that were to happen I'd be in favor of giving freighters any amount of slots they want... hell, give them large hybrid turret bonuses for all I care. Bottom line is, they are no longer invulnerable, and you don't have to suicide them in order to kill them. Johnatan said in his last post that it's not feasable for freighters to operate away from major trade hubs. Maybe you should at least try. Set up an operation where a freighter takes the cargo to a less frequented system. There, smaller vessels take over, ferrying the cargo to it's destinations. This way you sa***uard the cargo, you involve more people (a good thing), and you minimize the route which the freighter and its escorts have to travel. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jonathan Xavier Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:13:00 - [252] Originally by: Ki An Someone said that freighters should not be allowed in NPC corps. If that were to happen I'd be in favor of giving freighters any amount of slots they want... hell, give them large hybrid turret bonuses for all I care. Bottom line is, they are no longer invulnerable, and you don't have to suicide them in order to kill them. Actually, that was me who suggested it. Go figure. Originally by: Ki An Johnatan said in his last post that it's not feasable for freighters to operate away from major trade hubs. Maybe you should at least try. Set up an operation where a freighter takes the cargo to a less frequented system. There, smaller vessels take over, ferrying the cargo to it's destinations. This way you sa***uard the cargo, you involve more people (a good thing), and you minimize the route which the freighter and its escorts have to travel. /Ki Ki, you'd be talking about nearly 100 industrial trips to off load a single frieighter. There's a reason freighters are used in the first place, and why it was such a big deal that freighters could interface with POS structures. They have a massive cargo bay. No, it's not a good thing to involve 100 people (on each end) plus 5-10 in the middle just to move 90M units of trit from Oursulert to Hek.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:14:00 - [253] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:16:00 - [254] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work? Apparently it's too much of an effort. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:19:00 - [255] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier Ki, you'd be talking about nearly 100 industrial trips to off load a single frieighter. There's a reason freighters are used in the first place, and why it was such a big deal that freighters could interface with POS structures. They have a massive cargo bay. No, it's not a good thing to involve 100 people (on each end) plus 5-10 in the middle just to move 90M units of trit from Oursulert to Hek. Fair enough, might be unfeasable. Still, do you really have to take a freighter load into a trade hub each and every time? I mean, what are you carrying? Dozens of ships? Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:19:00 - [256] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work? Apparently it's too much of an effort. /Ki Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:21:00 - [257] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. You go ahead and do it without taking any security measures, and then get back to us and tell us how many times you where suicide ganked. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:23:00 - [258] Originally by: Ki An Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region? Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:24:00 - [259] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work? Apparently it's too much of an effort. /Ki Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. This is a valid point. :/ It's a difficult situation tbh, I'm definitely not of the opinion that hi-sec ganks are exploits. As much as possible should be left to the players imagination without imposing a bunch of rules that are only in place to keep a certain spectrum of players happy. It shouldn't be considered an exploit but perhaps there should be some way other than massive escorts to defend against freighter ganks. What is reasonable though?
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:25:00 - [260] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/05/2007 18:23:25 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region? Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume. But is this reason enough to exempt you from risk in a game where anything goes? I am definitely pro isk sink, ie,, there needs to be many more ways to slow the isk making in Eve than there are currently, invention was a start but the Eveconomy is still in trouble.

Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:25:00 - [261] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work? Apparently it's too much of an effort. /Ki Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. Been there, done that. We don't run our freighters unprotected where there is a good chance of a gank. You either have a corp that delivers (pardon the pun) or you don't.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:27:00 - [262] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. You go ahead and do it without taking any security measures, and then get back to us and tell us how many times you where suicide ganked. /Ki Nice dodge. You are suggesting that 5+ guard squads are a simple matter and implying freighter pilots are just too lazy to be bothered. I am merely pointing out that before you make claims you should try it yourself. As for me getting ganked you are correct that MOST times I won't. But with 3+ billion on the line (mnost of which is not insurable) it really only takes once to screw me over in EVE for months. Perhaps you are wealthy enough to shrug off a 3 billion total loss but I am not. It's like playing Russian Roulette. Even if there was only a 1:100 chance of you getting "unlucky" would you play?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:28:00 - [263] Edited by: SiJira on 01/05/2007 18:24:12 i have got a great suggestion make freighters not allowed to be flown in npc corps ! then you can war dec known freighter pilots and everyone can hug and care
trouser boy The Eve Pacification Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:28:00 - [264] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. You go ahead and do it without taking any security measures, and then get back to us and tell us how many times you where suicide ganked. /Ki Nice dodge. You are suggesting that 5+ guard squads are a simple matter and implying freighter pilots are just too lazy to be bothered. I am merely pointing out that before you make claims you should try it yourself. As for me getting ganked you are correct that MOST times I won't. But with 3+ billion on the line (mnost of which is not insurable) it really only takes once to screw me over in EVE for months. Perhaps you are wealthy enough to shrug off a 3 billion total loss but I am not. It's like playing Russian Roulette. Even if there was only a 1:100 chance of you getting "unlucky" would you play? Don't fly what you can't afford to lose?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:32:00 - [265] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/05/2007 18:23:25 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region? Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume. But is this reason enough to exempt you from risk in a game where anything goes? I am definitely pro isk sink, ie,, there needs to be many more ways to slow the isk making in Eve than there are currently, invention was a start but the Eveconomy is still in trouble. I totally agree that this should NOT exempt anyone from risk. While I am not a big fan of suicide ganks I accept them. I am NOT arguing for invulnerable freighters and frankly they should drop their loot. I merely want some reasonable methods to look after their safety. Note "reasonable". While definitely subjective and open to debate I disagree that 5 battleship guards to take a freighter everywhere it goes as reasonable.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:33:00 - [266] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? because it would boost a ship already powerful to shrug off 19 battleships, something no ship less than a mothership can do. Invulnerable freighters would be a terrible thing for the game. O RLY? The last I check freighters could tank 19 battleships because they got griefed in high sec. I guessed motherships could tank 19 battleships if they were griefed in high secs because they can turn on 3 armor reps and have resists mods in their defensive slots. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:35:00 - [267] Originally by: trouser boy Don't fly what you can't afford to lose? Oh, I'd survive as a player losing my ship and cargo like that but it would sting something fierce. The ship loss I could manage (suck but manage). The uninsured cargo is a lot more difficult. I'd get by and keep going but it would definitely throw a serious wrench in things.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:37:00 - [268] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/05/2007 18:38:59 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/05/2007 18:23:25 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region? Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume. But is this reason enough to exempt you from risk in a game where anything goes? I am definitely pro isk sink, ie,, there needs to be many more ways to slow the isk making in Eve than there are currently, invention was a start but the Eveconomy is still in trouble. I totally agree that this should NOT exempt anyone from risk. While I am not a big fan of suicide ganks I accept them. I am NOT arguing for invulnerable freighters and frankly they should drop their loot. I merely want some reasonable methods to look after their safety. Note "reasonable". While definitely subjective and open to debate I disagree that 5 battleship guards to take a freighter everywhere it goes as reasonable. They wouldn't have to go everywhere the freighter goes, only into high risk area's (or area's that a scout has determined to be high risk). In the example offered above where the freighter is carrying 2 billion in goods you need to remember, this freighter will likely NOT be a target in the first place. At least half of the goods will be lost in the explosion, leaving perhaps 1 billion. That would not be sufficient incentive for any profit oriented group to suicide their Domi's and equipment for... revenge oriented may be a different story but that is not the point of this discussion. Lets say 25 Domi pilots could pull it off. They invest the time necessary to get set up, organized, and find you. 1 billion/25= 40mil apiece. Would you suicide your ship for 40mil taking the loss of ship (- the difference you would get on your insurance you paid for), loss of modules and drones, and loss of standings into account? I don't know very many who would.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:39:00 - [269] Ki An, people killers like you would never listen to the little crafters like us. Maybe because you refuse to acknowledge a problem and see the side of the little people. You people killers have everything in eVe, null sec, low sec and high sec. The little people like us do not have those luxury. If you were to spend weeks flying freighters, I would guess you would change your mind. Keep an open mind. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jonathan Xavier Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:39:00 - [270] The reason I maintain that remote repping is not a viable counter is because people suggested that a BS with 8 remote reps can mitigate 5 Domi's damage. The problem with that is that a BS can't sustain that kind of rep. Instead you'd need a fleet of 20-40 BSs with 1-2 remote reppers each or a smaller number with 3 (if the cap use makes sense). The point myself and others has been making is that it is unreasonable to force freighter pilots to assemble a fleet that size to simply undock in Jita, Hek or Rens. People also need to consider that freighter ganking can be done for reasons other than personal profit. If an enemy decided to start take down an empty empty freighter, they would inflict 600M isk worth of net financial damage.

Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:44:00 - [271] Originally by: Ranger 1 They wouldn't have to go everywhere the freighter goes, only into high risk area's (or area's that a scout has determined to be high risk). Perhaps your corp is arranged such that you only do hauls in a given region and most of your mates hang in that region too. In my quest for mats I drive all over the universe. These long hauls are still useful due to the freighter's capacity. I simply do not have enough mates scattered far and wide to call in a guard cover for a few jumps easily. Mostly they have to make the majority of the trip with me. And a 2 billion in cargo freighter could be enough for a suicide gank. That's 600 million in profit for the squad or around 30 mil (give or take) for each member. Not a super huge payday but I could see if they were at the end of their camp with not got anything better yet the freighter with 2 billion in it could be enough.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:47:00 - [272] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ki An, people killers like you would never listen to the little crafters like us. Maybe because you refuse to acknowledge a problem and see the side of the little people. You people killers have everything in eVe, null sec, low sec and high sec. The little people like us do not have those luxury. If you were to spend weeks flying freighters, I would guess you would change your mind. Keep an open mind. Hmm, perhaps you should take your own advice and actually listen to the people with experience in combat (those you called "killers" in your oh so open minded way).
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:48:00 - [273] There should clearly be no insurance payments to people destroyed by Concord. Go ahead and gank -- but don't expect Concord to subsidize you. The whole transport/mining system needs to be rethought. Freighters should be minimally *****ble, and if other adjustments need to be made to allow that, then make them. There should also be a class of hauler in between transport and freighter. Most of the conversation in here about getting scouts and remote reppers is laughably uninformed and impractical.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:49:00 - [274] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier The reason I maintain that remote repping is not a viable counter is because people suggested that a BS with 8 remote reps can mitigate 5 Domi's damage. The problem with that is that a BS can't sustain that kind of rep. Instead you'd need a fleet of 20-40 BSs with 1-2 remote reppers each or a smaller number with 3 (if the cap use makes sense). The point myself and others has been making is that it is unreasonable to force freighter pilots to assemble a fleet that size to simply undock in Jita, Hek or Rens. People also need to consider that freighter ganking can be done for reasons other than personal profit. If an enemy decided to start take down an empty empty freighter, they would inflict 600M isk worth of net financial damage. Someone more savvy in the math of remote reppers and resists and all will have to weigh in with actual numbers but I think the notion is the remote repping battleships need only lay down 1-2 cycles to let the freighter live. Presumably CONCORD is wasting the attackers so you just need to nurse the freighter for a little bit. Of course the freighter will come out battered as hell and face a sizeable repair bill likely which frankly stinks. (I still totally fail to see why remote hull reps are not in game) Again, I am not good at all the math involved to say where the line is drawn to manage to let a freighter survive but some here have suggested 5 battleships with 8 remote reps each could pull it off versus 20 Domis. Also have to wonder how long the drones keep at it (with lag and such)
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:51:00 - [275] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier The reason I maintain that remote repping is not a viable counter is because people suggested that a BS with 8 remote reps can mitigate 5 Domi's damage. The problem with that is that a BS can't sustain that kind of rep. Instead you'd need a fleet of 20-40 BSs with 1-2 remote reppers each or a smaller number with 3 (if the cap use makes sense). The point myself and others has been making is that it is unreasonable to force freighter pilots to assemble a fleet that size to simply undock in Jita, Hek or Rens. People also need to consider that freighter ganking can be done for reasons other than personal profit. If an enemy decided to start take down an empty empty freighter, they would inflict 600M isk worth of net financial damage. Repping is EXTREMELY viable, especially when you have that big a pad of shield/armor/and structure to deal with. Remember, you don't have to rep for more than a few cycles before your enemy is destroyed by Concord. So yes, 8 reppers is unsustainable for any period of time... but you don't need that many per ship, nor do you have to perpetually sustain it. Empty freighters taken down by enemies of your corp are completely outside the scope of this thread. ANY ship can be taken down if you are willing to devote the resources to it, but we are discussing if freighter ganks for fun and profit are going to become common place.
Red Knight Gallente The Royal Guard Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:53:00 - [276] Solution: 1) CONCORD takes insurance payouts due to suicide gankers and pays the iskies to whomever the gankers had aggressed, or divides it up amongst all players in the area that were agressed. This could be called 'reperations', its damages that the victim - in a court of law - could rightfully claim. 2) Remote hull reppers. They can be just like current hull reppers - slow and inefficient for combat - but even if it takes 2 hours to rep up the freighter, its still worth it to avoid the monster repair bills. I don't think any other mechanics need to be changed. I think its good that nobody is safe. Maybe more changes would be in order if people couldn't return to an NPC corp after they join a PC corp, or if all PCs were forced into dec-able corps after 60 days... With so many freighters in newb corps, there has to be a way to engage them, talk about messed up risk/reward... ------------------------------------------ [orange]Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 400 pixels in width, smaller than 120 pixels in height and less than 24,000 bytes in files
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:00:00 - [277] Try another perspective perhaps. How would Paris react to city delivery trolleys being fire bombed?
Jollyreaper Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:26:00 - [278] Originally by: Mrmuttley Edited by: Mrmuttley on 29/04/2007 18:46:47 Suiciding a freighter takes organisation and timing. Escorting one also takes organisation. It is possible to defend against a asuicide gank squad but you have to bring warships and unfortunately some of the universes population seem to have a real aversion to bringing a warship along. Saying a freighter should be able to fit defensive mods to allow it to defen itself is a bit like saying a Supertanker carrying oil from Saudi Arabia to the shores of Europe ought to be able to defend its self from a Royal Navy warship if that warship saw fit to engage it. Nope. If that was a genuine risk then the only defense would be to bring ships with offensive capabilty to the party. Well, real-world comparisons sort of fall apart when putting this into space and the future. Certainly if our tankers were routinely coming under attack by foreign powers, we'd have to do something to change the way things are done. Consider the aircraft carrier, it relies on the escorts for primary defense but close-in weapons are still mounted to catch missiles in their terminal dives. If you want to make comparisons to history, you'd probably want to look at galleons. They are transport ships but also armed for self-defense. As far as the world of EVE is concerned, I would imagine that your safest transport would be a fast one that can outrun enemies. That works for small goods and would be analagous to drug smugglers with their speedboats and airplanes. To protect something as unweildy as a freighter, I would imagine an emphasis put on tank, stabs, and anti-frig weapons. First defense, warp! Second defense, don't get scrambled, run! Third defense, pop the tacklers, break the scram, run! Realistically speaking, commercial transport is always about cutting costs. Commercial sailers always sailed with the minimum possible crew to cut costs. That also meant they were at a disadvantage when fighting boarding actions against pirates but the owners felt that the loss to piracy vs. extra manpower was an acceptable trade-off. If piracy rose to the point when trade was no longer profitable, then a major navy would step in. EVE ain't quite reality so it's impossible to beat the pirates into submission. I don't worry too much in my inty since I don't carry enough to attract pirate attention, especially when sticking to highsec. I'm almost able to fly a freighter so I'm keeping an eye on the threat levels described here. If freighter popping becomes common, I'll only fly runs that are worth the hastle of arranging escort and that will probably be just corp ops. You know what would be really neat? Fireships. A suicide version of a q-ship. Fit the antimatter bomb mods, now your ship is one big flying doomsday device. Go trolling for a gank, get them good and close, then kabloooey! Dunno how realistic a pod survival would be in that situation, maybe it really would be a suicide ship.
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:31:00 - [279] Edited by: Kalixa Hihro on 01/05/2007 19:29:09 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. This isn't griefing. You have something, pirates try to take it. It's the natural order of the world of eve. From the great wiki: A griefer is a slang term used to describe a player in an online video game who plays the game simply to cause grief to other players through harassment. --------- The pirates gank you because they want your loot, not simply to cause grief and harass you. Call it anything but griefing, because that's not what it is. Here's what griefing is: *** An act of griefing involves the following three types of actions to be considered grief play:[6] * The unfair use or abuse of a game mechanic that was not intended by the game's developers. * The inability of the victim to exact some means of retribution beyond utilizing similar unintended game mechanics. * The intended purpose of an act of griefing must be to negatively impact the game play of another person. ------------ Since being a pirate is an occupation sanctioned by CCP, and the pirates are not exploiting, it's not griefing. Am I missing something here? Bear in mind, I'm not a pirate. In fact piracy is forbidden in my corp unless it's our enemy, in which case they are a war target. However I hate to see people call a legitimate game play "griefing" because it's entirely wrong and gives people a bad name. If the same group of 10 guys waited for you to log in and constantly badgered you every time you played, just to ruin the fun factor of the game for you, that could loosely be considered griefing. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Clorthos Gallente Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:35:00 - [280] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ki An Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Would remote repping not work? Apparently it's too much of an effort. /Ki Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks. Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you. This is a valid point. :/ It's a difficult situation tbh, I'm definitely not of the opinion that hi-sec ganks are exploits. As much as possible should be left to the players imagination without imposing a bunch of rules that are only in place to keep a certain spectrum of players happy. It shouldn't be considered an exploit but perhaps there should be some way other than massive escorts to defend against freighter ganks. What is reasonable though? It is going to promote empire blob warfare, with concord spawning to get involved. The lag will make everything petitionable and prolly kill servers. While I would not call it an exploit it is pushing the limits of what was intended in my opinion. We learned long ago as empire players in haulers to not haul large value items in your itteron 5 without a tank, transports, and afk flying. The Freighter does not have a defense aside from promoting the empire Blob warfare, give it a upgrade that was inline with the rest of the capital ships and let it defend itself via midslots and lowslots and a cpu/pg to effectivly fit it in an appropriate manner. and once again no cargo mods/rigging should be allowed to fit on a freighter so that a capital ship can be moved through empire or space avoiding fuel use.

Klorthos	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:38:00 - [281] Originally by: Ranger 1 Lets say 25 Domi pilots could pull it off. They invest the time necessary to get set up, organized, and find you. 1 billion/25= 40mil apiece. Would you suicide your ship for 40mil taking the loss of ship (- the difference you would get on your insurance you paid for), loss of modules and drones, and loss of standings into account? I don't know very many who would. I foresee a lot of alt recycling, how long does it take to fit a noobtoon in a domi with 1600 plates shield extenders and heavy tech 1 drones?
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:44:00 - [282] Originally by: Klorthos I foresee a lot of alt recycling, how long does it take to fit a noobtoon in a domi with 1600 plates shield extenders and heavy tech 1 drones? Around 30 days. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:45:00 - [283] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ki An, people killers like you would never listen to the little crafters like us. Maybe because you refuse to acknowledge a problem and see the side of the little people. You people killers have everything in eVe, null sec, low sec and high sec. The little people like us do not have those luxury. If you were to spend weeks flying freighters, I would guess you would change your mind. Keep an open mind. My god, get some perspective girl... I've actually never killed a person in my entire life. I've assasinated their character and ridiculed many, and have had it done to me, but I've never actually taken a life. That doesn't mean I would hesitate one second if I see your ship on my overview though. I play EvE because it's not real life. Also... do you really think I make isk PvPing? And if not, where do I get my isk? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:02:00 - [284] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Klorthos I foresee a lot of alt recycling, how long does it take to fit a noobtoon in a domi with 1600 plates shield extenders and heavy tech 1 drones? Around 30 days. Assuming this is correct, it's going to take a lot more pilots (of this level of skill) to pull off a successful freighter gank. I was using experienced pilots for my example.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:08:00 - [285] I definitely smell losses (subscriptions) in CCP's future with this high sec 'pop the freighter' era we are embarking upon. There is simply to much uninsured materials up for theft/destruction from people who are not in this game for such losses. You simply cannot expect people to work for weeks/months and loose it all in 5 minutes to reliably maintain their subscriptions. Can you? Would you? You can preach adapt all you want,, but it does not boil down to adapting,, it boils down to subscriptions. Lol,, in a way,, adapting is taking place,, CCP is adapting the game. And, no, the loss of subscriptions from people who want to kill freighters and quit because they cant, will not exceed those of the people who loose freighters and quit. This 'pop the freighter' era (if it gets commonplace) is not healthy for Eve and will be adjusted accordingly by CCP. bookmarks this post for later pointing and nodding
Hank Cousteau	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:09:00 - [286] I think the Freigher pilots need to take the indignant argument of "I spent X amount of money and X amount of skill points, of course I should have this great unbalanced ability blah blah" Works for Recons and Supercapital people. I mean, just sayin... HINT: When you have to use a particular mechanic (drones) and not universal (torpedoes, lasers etc)... it's a good sign it's an exploit of some kind. Also, when the counter is only "repping"... that's pretty lame too. The real world counter to this would be to blast the offending mofos. No one can argue that. You have an incomplete game mechanic, and CCP should be weighing in on what is permissible and what is not whilst they work it out. Freighters should at least have fixed components (low level reppers) and perhaps a nominal afterburner. Give the pilots some butans to press.
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:47:00 - [287] empire ganking = legitimate game mechanic. This assumes you manage to kill your target before concord jams you good. the fact that drones keep on attacking and doing damage is what is the problem here, that goes against the counter vs the empire ganking mechanic. Its a loophole. Keep everything as it is but add to concord that they disable the aggressors drones somehow. That way you can still kill freighters if you bring a big enough alpha... and possibly beta...etc - if your rof is good. fixed. .
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:56:00 - [288] Originally by: Hank Cousteau CCP should be weighing in on what is permissible and what is not whilst they work it out. Didn't CCP make their intentiton known when they decided to make freighters lootable? This fix is suddenly a surprise to people? I mean, they have been working on different methods to make freighters lootable for about a year or so, it's just that they only recently came up with the solution. The writing was on the wall, you didn't read it, and now your panicking over a problem that most likely doesn't exist anyways. The only REAL issue I see is that some pilots got used to the small niche with freighters that gave them invulnerability, which has been something CCP made obvious for months that they wanted to eliminate. But the simple fact remains that this is not going to be a common issue. If it was going to be, then at least one person in this thread would have said "I Lost a Freighter" so far, and nobody has. I simply do not see a couple DOZEN pirates spending a few days each to get their sec status up to come into empire space for a single freighter kill on a regular basis. Then they will get their sec status knocked back down and have to do it all again? Why? It will bore them to tears and probably be LESS profitable for them since it takes most of a week of work for that one kill. And even if they DO pursue that path, you probably won't see it happen more than once a WEEK or so because of the organization and preparation that would have to go into it. Dull, Dull, Dull. Somebody made the reference to the privateer nerf, and I do see a similarity. It's just a bunch of people, many of which who weren't or will not be affected by this, who don't want to make any effort at all to protect themselves and expect a free ride and invulnerability no matter what they do.
SigmaPi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:06:00 - [289] I for one want to know where all these hardcore pvpers will be when the "carebears" decide they dont wanna play this game and stop mining and hauling and building ships and generally doing all the things that the "pvpers" dont wanna do? I for one PvP a lot (pm me in-game if you want killboard proof) and I carebear a lot, its how I maintain my ISK. All these people who show so much hate to the carebear who is supplying your ships and mods (probobly some carebear made the domi, the drones, and the plates you used to kill his freighter) are not using their brains. I promise that over half of the stuff you end up using has passed somewhere via a freighter at somepoint in its travel. Probobly more like 100% but, shrug. This game only works becuase there are people who will carebear and do the things you dont want to. I will laugh when you have to mine veldspar in high-sec to build your next battleship. /Siggy
SigmaPi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:09:00 - [290] Also, a very simple fix, imo, would be to make drones stop attacking if their parent ship is being concorded (jammed). The fact that it is the drones that kill the freighter and not the ganker's ships is tell-tale that there is a problem. If you cant gank the ship using any other method, then you shouldnt be able to gank with drones. Its a loophole, and I hope it gets closed soon. /Siggy

Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:45:00 - [291] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier The reason I maintain that remote repping is not a viable counter is because people suggested that a BS with 8 remote reps can mitigate 5 Domi's damage. The problem with that is that a BS can't sustain that kind of rep. Instead you'd need a fleet of 20-40 BSs with 1-2 remote reppers each or a smaller number with 3 (if the cap use makes sense). The point myself and others has been making is that it is unreasonable to force freighter pilots to assemble a fleet that size to simply undock in Jita, Hek or Rens. People also need to consider that freighter ganking can be done for reasons other than personal profit. If an enemy decided to start take down an empty empty freighter, they would inflict 600M isk worth of net financial damage. You dont have to sustain it, you only need to last long enough for concord to kill the offending domis. Taking the outbreak example, they had 20 ships averaging 5k DPS total, for 250dps/ship, taking into acct armor resistance against thermal, thats 163 DPS/ship. Each best named large remote rep will repair about 110/second, 8 of them will negate the damage from more than 5 domis. An apoc with 7 cap power relays, 3 cap rechargers, 1 ab, and 3 ccc rigs with good skills and staggered activation of modules(ie turn 1 rep on each second) will last 6-7 cycles of all 8 large remote reps before it caps out and loses half the reps. Thats 30 seconds of completely negating the attacker's DPS(assuming 1 apoc per 5-6 domis), more than enough time for concord to kill the attackers. Again using the outbreak video as an example. It took them 35 seconds of from the start of the engagement to kill the unescorted ft, and 50 seconds before everyone died to concord. If that ft had 4 of those repping apocs escorting it, it meant that the outbreak domis could only do damage largely unimpeded for about 15 seconds, which is around 75k dmg, minus whatever the apocs managed to rep after cap death(they regen really really fast), not nearly enough to kill a freighter. In addition, this was a .6 system, so concord response was considerably slower than it would be in a .9 system like jita.
Ovale KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:49:00 - [292] Originally by: SigmaPi Also, a very simple fix, imo, would be to make drones stop attacking if their parent ship is being concorded (jammed). The fact that it is the drones that kill the freighter and not the ganker's ships is tell-tale that there is a problem. If you cant gank the ship using any other method, then you shouldnt be able to gank with drones. Its a loophole, and I hope it gets closed soon. /Siggy Agreed. Drones need to be jammed when you are. Concord should also target and destroy them.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:50:00 - [293] Edited by: Rawthorm on 01/05/2007 21:47:08 It's amazing how in 10 pages of bickering, most people loos sight of the ONLY issue here. Drones bypass concord ECM, effectivly curcumventing a cruicial game mechanic. Its an exploit plain and simple, just like divising a way to survive a concord attack would be. If CCP find a way to make concord jam drones and you still gank a freighter the old way then hats off to you.
Tease No Boys Allowed	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:51:00 - [294] ??? What's the problem here? Just gang with a partner who can webify and use it to insta-warp to each gate. Or does that not work anymore? ----------------------------------------- [2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level? [2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you [2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:53:00 - [295] Edited by: Rawthorm on 01/05/2007 21:49:49 Originally by: Tease ??? What's the problem here? Just gang with a partner who can webify and use it to insta-warp to each gate. Or does that not work anymore? The point, like those people saying you should have an escort, ect is in my above post. The gank itself isnt the problem, its the method used to gank here that is. Frieghter pilots should not have to muscle up an escort (military or a webbing frig, not that that works quick enough) just because half a dozen people are exploiting a loophole in the game mechanics.
SigmaPi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:54:00 - [296] The fact is, there should be no high-sec ganking to begin with. There is a reason concord spams you and jams you when you agress someone. And the reason is not so your drones can go ahead and finish the job.
SigmaPi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:55:00 - [297] Originally by: Tease ??? What's the problem here? Just gang with a partner who can webify and use it to insta-warp to each gate. Or does that not work anymore? The web trick no longer works. It is removed in the sisi patch, at least.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:56:00 - [298] Edited by: Rawthorm on 01/05/2007 21:53:20 Originally by: SigmaPi The fact is, there should be no high-sec ganking to begin with. There is a reason concord spams you and jams you when you agress someone. And the reason is not so your drones can go ahead and finish the job. Well if that was the case CCP would simply put in code to stop you shooting another player in high sec at all. In anycase tbh thats a diferent debate and shouldnt detract from this issue, which as you said is the drones.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.05.01 22:23:00 - [299] Edited by: Laboratus on 01/05/2007 22:20:33 High sec is an aberration to the concept of in in itself. It as not however, secure space. There is not and should not be non-pvp areas in eve. Even high sec supports non concentual pvp, it just has reprecussions. In this thread are numerous suggestions as how to counter the suicide freighter ganks, but they are being brushed off, since they are not trivially easy, but require some thought and consideration and perhaps a bit of coordination. Just like an attack squad of 20+ ppl. It's been talked to death already. In the last 3 pages nothing new. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:01:00 - [300] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 01/05/2007 22:59:01 Originally by: Rawthorm Edited by: Rawthorm on 01/05/2007 21:47:08 It's amazing how in 10 pages of bickering, most people loos sight of the ONLY issue here. Drones bypass concord ECM, effectivly curcumventing a cruicial game mechanic. Its an exploit plain and simple, just like divising a way to survive a concord attack would be. If CCP find a way to make concord jam drones and you still gank a freighter the old way then hats off to you. Crikey! The final nail on the coffin. That is one of the high sec freighter griefing exploit that you have mentioned. Kind of strange that many people killers do not admit it. I am also a Player vs Playerless gamer and I admit the drone exploit in high sec is lame especially when it is used to grief freighters. I wish CCP would do something about it. CCP could also give freighters some defensive slots. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.02 06:51:00 - [301] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Crikey! The final nail on the coffin. That is one of the high sec freighter griefing exploit that you have mentioned. Kind of strange that many people killers do not admit it. I am also a Player vs Playerless gamer and I admit the drone exploit in high sec is lame especially when it is used to grief freighters. I wish CCP would do something about it. CCP could also give freighters some defensive slots. You are, by far, the most ignorant person I have ever seen on these forums.
Twarda Sztuka	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:07:00 - [302] Hi Everyone I always try to find middle ground in all discussions. As with every discussion there are two camps. Here one camp is a group of people who have or would like to have Freighter. The other are pirates and pvpers. This time it was very hard for me to find middle ground as I completely agree with people who hate being attacked in hi-sec areas. Basic observations: 1) Patch that made frighters drop loot didn't change the potential loss to the haulers. If you had 1bn ship with 10bn cargo and were destroyed before patch, your loss was the same as now. 2) Patch did change one thing: made freighters more benefitial targets for pirates. 3) There are people in this discussion who called Freighters isk factories. 4) Financial loss of ganking group isless than financial loss of Freighter + Cargo Few suggestions: Since the 0.5+ systems are supposed to be safer there is controll mechanism (CONCORD) which doesn't work very well in case of ganking. If ship is destroyed in 0.5+ space without any aggression on its side (as it is with Freighters) insurance should cover it and send bill to CONCORD ;) But seriously, it should be not profitable for suicide gankers, or at least not in each attack. So there are few ways of doing it: 1) Make Freighters slightly more difficult to destroy. 2) Make insurance variable. (for each ship destroyed in hi-sec space increase the cost of insurance for player). 3) Add automatic cargo scanner jamming in hi-sec space. This way gankers will never know if it is profitable to destroy this particular freighter. Now for the gankers: It is lame. You call it isk factories, but in fact it is you who want to reap benefits with minimum work. Hauling itself is not very rewarding job. People who use frighters have to spend lot of time checking market prices, buying goods, getting them together, moving across many systems, and then selling. You are discouraging other players from playing eve. Of course if someone tries to move Freighter through low-sec space it is fair game, but attacks in hi-sec are at least rude. Also think about what you loose because of it. The fact that haulers are making profit is side effect. You might be jealous, but their work is important for eve economy. They equilize the market in different regions. I really hope that next time you will destroy Freighter and will have to buy few BSs, you will have to travel 30+ jumps to get one at reasonable price. Than another 30+ jumps to buy overpriced ammo. Final thing you should consider is that each player do something that he likes. If you will discorage haulers, it will have effect on producers and then on miners. If every single player would only play PvP you would have a lot of problems getting anything bigger than cruiser. That is main reason for dividing space to hi-sec and low-sec. Lot of people are not interested in wars with others. Discourage them and they will move to other games. You know what outcome it might have? Higher subscription prices (lower player base). Next time there will be raise in subscription fees don't whine about it as you probably contributed to it.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:27:00 - [303] Originally by: Twarda Sztuka I always try to find middle ground in all discussions. As with every discussion there are two camps. Here one camp is a group of people who have or would like to have Freighter. The other are pirates and pvpers. This time it was very hard for me to find middle ground as I completely agree with people who hate being attacked in hi-sec areas. I find it interesting that you claim to want to take the middle ground and then you promptly say that you are biased. This bias shows in the rest of your post too. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka 1) Patch that made frighters drop loot didn't change the potential loss to the haulers. If you had 1bn ship with 10bn cargo and were destroyed before patch, your loss was the same as now. 2) Patch did change one thing: made freighters more benefitial targets for pirates. 3) There are people in this discussion who called Freighters isk factories. All true. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka 4) Financial loss of ganking group isless than financial loss of Freighter + Cargo Not necessarily true, but given the fact that: 5) Most freighter pilots are unwilling to adapt to changing circumstances it becomes very true as well. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka Since the 0.5+ systems are supposed to be safer there is controll mechanism (CONCORD) which doesn't work very well in case of ganking. If ship is destroyed in 0.5+ space without any aggression on its side (as it is with Freighters) insurance should cover it and send bill to CONCORD ;) But seriously, it should be not profitable for suicide gankers, or at least not in each attack. It should be profitable for organized suicide gankers. It won't be profitable if they come up against organized freighter pilots. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka So there are few ways of doing it: 1) Make Freighters slightly more difficult to destroy. Why? Up the ceiling? Make it cost 900 million instead of 600 million to destroy you, or make you completely invulnerable? cont... Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:27:00 - [304] Edited by: Ki An on 02/05/2007 12:23:36 Originally by: Twarda Sztuka 2) Make insurance variable. (for each ship destroyed in hi-sec space increase the cost of insurance for player). I see what you're getting at here, but that's not really gonna hurt gankers as much as anyone else. Like carebears like to say: Look at the map. There's a lot of ships destroyed every day in high sec. How many of those do you think is due to suicide ganking? Originally by: Twarda Sztuka 3) Add automatic cargo scanner jamming in hi-sec space. This way gankers will never know if it is profitable to destroy this particular freighter. Pray tell what the use of cargo scanners are then? Just for low sec? Low sec where you don't need to scan because you don't risk Concord spoiling your day? Originally by: Twarda Sztuka It is lame. You call it isk factories, but in fact it is you who want to reap benefits with minimum work. Hauling itself is not very rewarding job. People who use frighters have to spend lot of time checking market prices, buying goods, getting them together, moving across many systems, and then selling. You are discouraging other players from playing eve. Of course if someone tries to move Freighter through low-sec space it is fair game, but attacks in hi-sec are at least rude. Here you show your true metal. You throw unbiased to the wind and take a firm stance in the carebear camp. You call organizing 30 domis with sufficient skills, as well as support in form of looters and scouts minimum work? At the same time you try to claim that the freighter pilot is doing enough work by flying his ship from point A to point B? I mean, come on! If the gankers put in minimum work, the freighter pilot surely isn't doing any work at all. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka Also think about what you loose because of it. The fact that haulers are making profit is side effect. You might be jealous, but their work is important for eve economy. They equilize the market in different regions. I really hope that next time you will destroy Freighter and will have to buy few BSs, you will have to travel 30+ jumps to get one at reasonable price. Than another 30+ jumps to buy overpriced ammo. You do know that most PvPers do industrial stuff on the side, or have a second account to do it for them, right? PvPing is seldom a lucrative business. You have to get very lucky to be able to live off of it solely. So, no, we don't need carebears. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka Final thing you should consider is that each player do something that he likes. If you will discorage haulers, it will have effect on producers and then on miners. If every single player would only play PvP you would have a lot of problems getting anything bigger than cruiser. That is main reason for dividing space to hi-sec and low-sec. Lot of people are not interested in wars with others. Discourage them and they will move to other games. You know what outcome it might have? Higher subscription prices (lower player base). Next time there will be raise in subscription fees don't whine about it as you probably contributed to it. And you pull the old "Carebears are good for CCP because they bring in accounts". Well, you are dead wrong here. EvE is a niched game for people who like all the aspects. That's why we don't have more than 180.000 or so accounts, and that's why we have a single server. EvE don't need WoW-numbers. EvE only caters to those that enjoy the gameplay, and that gameplay involves being really really mean sometimes. I don't care if some poor sucker lost all he had in a gank, and neither should you. If he put himself in that situation and can't suck it up and start over, he's not cut out for EvE. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:03:00 - [305] There is something that seems to be forgotten in this thread. Freighters are an essential part of any corporations/alliances logistical backbone. Freighters as targets provide meaningful goals for corporation/alliance warfare. As such they are an essential part of eve pvp. The fact that some ppl jump corp for a newbie corp, an exploit by the way, to avoid the hazards of a war dec, does not mean that ppl taking down said freighters is "ganking" or "griefing". They are legitimate targets, and quite good targets as such. And. Empire is not supposed to be safe. It is more secure, but still, rather than limitations, it has penalties assosiated with criminal activities... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:18:00 - [306] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 01/05/2007 22:59:01 Originally by: Rawthorm Edited by: Rawthorm on 01/05/2007 21:47:08 It's amazing how in 10 pages of bickering, most people loos sight of the ONLY issue here. Drones bypass concord ECM, effectivly curcumventing a cruicial game mechanic. Its an exploit plain and simple, just like divising a way to survive a concord attack would be. If CCP find a way to make concord jam drones and you still gank a freighter the old way then hats off to you. Crikey! The final nail on the coffin. That is one of the high sec freighter griefing exploit that you have mentioned. Kind of strange that many people killers do not admit it. I am also a Player vs Playerless gamer and I admit the drone exploit in high sec is lame especially when it is used to grief freighters. I wish CCP would do something about it. CCP could also give freighters some defensive slots. You know what, every time you refer to players who participate in PVP as people killers you insult most of the players in EVE and make yourself look ignorant. It's offensive, and if it continues I think I'm going to have to send a note to the moderators. It's a game, get some perspective.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:22:00 - [307] Edited by: Johnny ReeRee on 02/05/2007 14:18:04 Originally by: Laboratus There is something that seems to be forgotten in this thread. Freighters are an essential part of any corporations/alliances logistical backbone. Freighters as targets provide meaningful goals for corporation/alliance warfare. As such they are an essential part of eve pvp. The fact that some ppl jump corp for a newbie corp, an exploit by the way, to avoid the hazards of a war dec, does not mean that ppl taking down said freighters is "ganking" or "griefing". They are legitimate targets, and quite good targets as such. And. Empire is not supposed to be safe. It is more secure, but still, rather than limitations, it has penalties assosiated with criminal activities... Those "penalties" at this point mean almost bupkis. There should be NO INSURANCE PAYMENTS FOR SHIPS DESTROYED BY CONCORD. Gank away -- but you shouldn't get subsidized to do it.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:30:00 - [308] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Those "penalties" at this point mean almost bupkis. There should be NO INSURANCE PAYMENTS FOR SHIPS DESTROYED BY CONCORD. Gank away -- but you shouldn't get subsidized to do it. You lose insurance+ modules. That is a lot. I personally find the fact that you do get some sort of generic insurance pretty dumb, specially considering you get it even without never paying for it. And any insurance company that sees that for some clients insurance contract never expire, but that they always have to pay up a sum somewhere along the lines of triple the amount they got seems pretty dumb. Also, it makes no sense whatsoever that the freighter pilots get insurance unescorted and possibly under war dec. I mean what kind of insurance company pays insurances for propery damage from acts of war, force majore, or high risk situations. Not one that would be long in business, I say... All in all, would you please try to say why you feel that way, instead of just shouting so. Not very convincing for an argument... Dynamic insurance would be cool, even though it would ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Dickncider Minmatar Barge Insurance Company Relief	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:52:00 - [309] Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them Wow over 10 pages whining and the very first reply was the correct one. CCP does NOT have to redesign or modify anything in the current game mechanics. CCP already has done an excellent job of creating everything you would need to protect yourself in high sec. For those of you, who have no idea how to protect your freighter within high sec, slap yourself for being stupid and you deserve to loose your ship for not thinking outside the box. High Sec is Safer, but not safe!
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.02 15:31:00 - [310] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Twarda Sztuka 4) Financial loss of ganking group isless than financial loss of Freighter + Cargo Not necessarily true, but given the fact that: 5) Most freighter pilots are unwilling to adapt to changing circumstances it becomes very true as well. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka Since the 0.5+ systems are supposed to be safer there is controll mechanism (CONCORD) which doesn't work very well in case of ganking. If ship is destroyed in 0.5+ space without any aggression on its side (as it is with Freighters) insurance should cover it and send bill to CONCORD ;) But seriously, it should be not profitable for suicide gankers, or at least not in each attack. It should be profitable for organized suicide gankers. It won't be profitable if they come up against organized freighter pilots. Originally by: Twarda Sztuka So there are few ways of doing it: 1) Make Freighters slightly more difficult to destroy. Why? Up the ceiling? Make it cost 900 million instead of 600 million to destroy you, or make you completely invulnerable? cont... To me it seems that the reward-isk balance is out of whack. Lots of isk for no risk. Oh and... down with insurance ^^. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: Sama

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.02 15:43:00 - [311] Originally by: Nifel To me it seems that the reward-isk balance is out of whack. Lots of isk for no risk. Oh and... down with insurance ^^. Risk vs Reward is pretty messed up when unescorted haulers get shot in low- or nul sec too. Key word is unescorted. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.02 18:39:00 - [312] Originally by: Ranger 1 You know what, every time you refer to players who participate in PVP as people killers you insult most of the players in EVE and make yourself look ignorant. It's offensive, and if it continues I think I'm going to have to send a note to the moderators. It's a game, get some perspective. That is irrelevant in this thread. If you are talking about politically correct terminologies, please start a new thread. The comments from various members of the community are interesting because there is a problem with high sec freighter ganking. It is not right and is a broken game mechanics. I have seen MMOs for more a decade and the term people killers or player killers does fit the context. Might be I am so used to the terminology. If a player kills a human player, the player is a player killer. If the player kills a non-human player, the player is a non-player killer. If I kill a player's ship. I am a player killer. If I kill a player's pod. I am also a player killer. If you kill somebody, you are a killer. I do not see anything wrong with my perspective. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.02 18:48:00 - [313] Edited by: Ki An on 02/05/2007 18:44:47 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That is irrelevant in this thread. If you are talking about politically correct terminologies, please start a new thread. The comments from various members of the community are interesting because there is a problem with high sec freighter ganking. It is not right and is a broken game mechanics. It seems like you are desperate for there to be a problem and are trying very hard to convince yourself and others that there is. However, there doesn't actually seem to be any rampant ganking of freighters going on. So far I've heard of two instances after the patch, and both were unsuccessful. You also completely disregard the fact that YOU can make sure there will never be a problem for you. However, you'de rather have CCP do something so you don't have to, because you are lazy. Believe me, you are not the first to cry for changes in the game to make things easier for you. In this case, however, you are wrong, and should be flamed indiscriminally. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I have seen MMOs for more a decade and the term people killers or player killers does fit the context. Might be I am so used to the terminology. If a player kills a human player, the player is a player killer. If the player kills a non-human player, the player is a non-player killer. First, I don't believe you are older than 12 at the most, so I think you are lying. Second, player killer I've heard before, and while suitable in other MMO's, it don't really apply in EvE, as PvP is such a major part. People killer is something you made up yourself to make some sort of skewed point about PvPers all being psychopat killers IRL. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I do not see anything wrong with my perspective. That's because you are blinded by your own self importance. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.02 18:52:00 - [314] Originally by: Ki An It seems like you are desperate for there to be a problem and are trying very hard to convince yourself and others that there is. However, there doesn't actually seem to be any rampant ganking of freighters going on. So far I've heard of two instances after the patch, and both were unsuccessful. Freighters have problem. Full stop. If it doesn't, why the discussion is over 12 pages long? Oh I know. Freighters have no problem because some griefers say so. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.02 18:56:00 - [315] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Freighters have problem. Full stop. If it doesn't, why the discussion is over 12 pages long? Oh I know. Freighters have no problem because some griefers say so. You keep proving my point about your age every post you make. The reason the thread is 12 pages long is because some people can't seem to understand that their petty concerns are irrelevant in the big picture. YOU have a problem with freighters because you play solo and expect to be safe in high sec. Too bad, you won't. That doesn't mean there is a problem with game mechanics. That just mean YOU have a problem. Either you deal with the problem and stfu, or you find another game. As simple as that. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.02 19:32:00 - [316] Years ago, longer than some of EvE's players have been alive and definitely longer than most WoW players I logged onto my first mud. I had no idea what I was doing, I thought the players would fight each other. I found some guy and typed "kill whatshisname", yes chillren we had to type our commands and we LIKED it. I got a message 'You need to MURDER another player'. So I type MURDER whatshisname, and I get a message 'This feature has been disabled by the administrator.' Why the hell do people want to do this to EvE?
Driven Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea	Posted - 2007.05.02 19:37:00 - [317] Originally by: RtoZ To CCP: start thinking about the broader implications of what you do, allowing freighters to drop loot was a phenomenally bad decision, given the ship's more or less unique charectaristics. Most of the logistics in eve is done by solo players, hauler corps or alts, and these simply do not have the resources to support their opps. However , if the idea is to slow eve gameplay, well, this will bring it to a crawl, as people have to go back to pre freighter logistics and start fitting cargo expanders on battleships. Well said. Very well said. Especially with no slots and no rigs. From unbalanced immunity to unbalanced vulnerability, the pendulum has swung too far with this hamfisted move. I guess its back to the nanoed shield-tanked battleship if you want to move anything of any value. As to how to move large volume high value stuff......... Part of the evil Tech 2 BPO cartel
Esiel Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.02 19:39:00 - [318] As I was reading other stuff a simple solution came to me. This would probably solve most of the problems. Set the basic insurance for a freighter to be gold level insurance. This means if a person looses a freighter the payout is fairly close to the cost of buying a new one. This will allow the gankers to gank and allow the haulers to be able to recover if they loose a freighter. (They still lost thier cargo but they can buy a new freighter and continue) In the end there can be only one.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.02 22:11:00 - [319] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Freighters have problem. Full stop. If it doesn't, why the discussion is over 12 pages long? Oh I know. Freighters have no problem because some griefers say so. You keep proving my point about your age every post you make. The reason the thread is 12 pages long is because some people can't seem to understand that their petty concerns are irrelevant in the big picture. YOU have a problem with freighters because you play solo and expect to be safe in high sec. Too bad, you won't. That doesn't mean there is a problem with game mechanics. That just mean YOU have a problem. Either you deal with the problem and stfu, or you find another game. As simple as that. /Ki "That just mean YOU have a problem." Him and every other Freighter pilot out there. All your arguments were made by one person or another regarding Privateers as well (and m0o and Nanos and...). You do know how that turned out right? Based on how that turned out, why do you think this is any different? Anything that hurts Eve overall is bad for Eve and will be changed. Precident is something you would be wise to acknowledge. Sooo... the real question is... is popping freighters in the manner being discussed bad for Eve? First you have to define what is bad for Eve. Hint: loosing subscription in droves is bad for Eve. Now,, you did make one good point. Freighter do not seem to be getting popped willy-nilly. So long as this remains the case... there is no problem. Nothing needs fixing if 2 or 3 a week get popped. However,, as history has taught us (ignoring history = really stupid),, once something gets out of hand and becomes bad for Eve...... Big pictures are somtimes hard to see... until you step back a bit.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.02 22:26:00 - [320] Originally by: Lord Dynastron Now,, you did make one good point. Freighter do not seem to be getting popped willy-nilly. So long as this remains the case... there is no problem. Nothing needs fixing if 2 or 3 a week get popped. However,, as history has taught us (ignoring history = really stupid),, once something gets out of hand and becomes bad for Eve...... If it actually becomes a problem, and common, then I agree a change will have to be made. But in all the threads on this topic only one person even claims that it was ATTEMPTED on them, and unsuccessful I might add, in a .5 system where Concord responses are slowest.

Beffanie Pink Power Ponies	Posted - 2007.05.02 22:33:00 - [321] Originally by: **ncider Originally by:** Velsharoon Escorts them Wow over 10 pages whining and the very first reply was the correct one. CCP does NOT have to redesign or modify anything in the current game mechanics. CCP already has done an excellent job of creating everything you would need to protect yourself in high sec. For those of you, who have no idea how to protect your freighter within high sec, slap yourself for being stupid and you deserve to loose your ship for not thinking outside the box. hehe, I guess you missed the pages that almost explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts.
Aypse Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.02 22:33:00 - [322] There is no freighter griefing problem. The only problem is with people who use to be totally immune having difficulty with their new-found vulnerability. BTW- Learn the difference between ganking, griefing, and pvping. Originally by: Oveur Eve is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.02 23:08:00 - [323] Originally by: Beffanie hehe, I guess you missed the pages that almost explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts. If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.02 23:35:00 - [324] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Beffanie hehe, I guess you missed the pages that almost explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts. If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort. While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.02 23:44:00 - [325] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Beffanie hehe, I guess you missed the pages that almost explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts. If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort. While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit. ECM burst, once the domis are jammed 1 blackbird with ecm bursts can break locks on most of the drones, and the drones will only reagro on the blackbird, since the ft has no offensive modules. Repping battleships work as well.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.02 23:53:00 - [326] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Beffanie hehe, I guess you missed the pages that almost explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts. If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort. While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit. ECM burst, once the domis are jammed 1 blackbird with ecm bursts can break locks on most of the drones, and the drones will only reagro on the blackbird, since the ft has no offensive modules. Repping battleships work as well. You can only have one ECM burst active now with a recent patch (or so I was led to understand...haven't tried myself) so unsure how effective that might be. ECM burst will also get the BB CONCORDED probably but not such a big loss. Pilot will also probably take a sec hit but not as badly as an SBing battleship that pods people. Remote repping seems it may work if you can drag 5+ mates along who have all remote reps fitted in hi. As has been discussed that is a lot to ask for to follow your freighter around constantly. Certainly worth it for a massively valuable cargo but every time the thing moves?
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.03 00:37:00 - [327] I agree with Dark Shikari, the problem is not that freighters can and do get attacked, the problem is that they have no means of preventing this from happening. All games are about balance, if everyone flew around EVE with a one-hit kill button, things would be horribly boring. High security space is suppose to be where one leans away from profits and towards safety, in terms of the overall sliding scale. Maybe if concord fined the would-be pirates 50% of the victim ships base cost for "wreckage clean-up" in 0.6< space, it would deter (though not stop) many of these situations.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.03 01:25:00 - [328] wow you guys that keep saying freighters cant prevent a gank have real issues reading but yes id agree that having to escort every freighter mission that is even slightly profitable to run is a bit on the too much side ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.03 01:38:00 - [329] Edited by: Siege on 03/05/2007 01:38:18 Originally by: Derovius Vaden I agree with Dark Shikari, the problem is not that freighters can and do get attacked, the problem is that they have no means of preventing this from happening. All games are about balance, if everyone flew around EVE with a one-hit kill button, things would be horribly boring. High security space is suppose to be where one leans away from profits and towards safety, in terms of the overall sliding scale. Maybe if concord fined the would-be pirates 50% of the victim ships base cost for "wreckage clean-up" in 0.6< space, it would deter (though not stop) many of these situations. They have 120,000 structure, and Concord, to protect them. I mean, seriously, have any of you folks crying doom and gloom ever tried to actually take down a freighter? Even with no concord interference they take an obscene amount of time and effort to destroy. Only other capital ships can routinely expect to survive combat as well as a freighter, and those are all banned from empire space except for a couple specific exemptions that have heavy restrictions. You need to arrange about two DOZEN players, or more, all with good drone skills, with pretty strong tanks to accomplish this. All of these players WILL loose their ships and take a decent security hit to do it, preventing them from doing it more than once every few days at the utter maximum if they dedicate every minute they play Eve toward this single task. PLUS they need another freighter to loot everything, that they will most likely be unable to defend because all their major combat ships were just blown up. This is NOT an issue right now, and most likely it wont ever BE an issue except for a few isolated incidents. If for some reason it does start happening constantly, then yeah make some changes. Personally I think some increases to structural resistances would be the best compromise. Maybe 15% across the board would be good, it will give a good increase to your survivability without creating a more serious exploit. And I also think that remote structural repair would be a good idea to put in the game now, since that will help the pilots of those big tubs without causing any problems that I can see as long as they are kept in line with currently structure repair mods. But it would be really easy to cause some serious balance issues if you start adding slots to something with that much cargo and structure. Smart Bombs and Burst ECM are utter stupdity in empire space, as concord will kill you. No high slots will save you in those situations, not a chance. One low slot gives you 50% resists across the board, which is just absurd with that much structure. Just a single mid slot creates a near unlimited capacitor to nos off of with an injector and a cargohold full of cap800 charges.
Kon Sue	Posted - 2007.05.03 01:42:00 - [330] Originally by: Larshus Magrus I fly a freighter. I'm a pvper. I'm not in a NPC corp. I primarily use my freighter to aquire minst o build myself ships, and to move my ships around in empire so that I have they scattered at 0.0 entrance points where I need em. I don't afk my freighter cause I want it to get where its going asap so I can get back to the "fun" of the game. Right now its trivial to gank a freighter with 25 domis. Its NOT trivial to defend a freighter. Come on, the scout thing doesn't work. If you have the ability to get 25 people in domis you sure as hell have the discipline to align and warp. What will I do? Stop flying my freighter around. Simple. No biggie. What will others do? The same thing. Lets think of the consequences. Freighters are often times used to move large amounts of low ends out towards 0.0 so stuff can be built. Guess what happens when you can't move low ends or mid ends around. Prioces of ships go up because you can't gather it all at one place "safely". If You think a ship builder is going to use an industrial to cart around trit you are wrong.. wont take the time or effort to do it for the low profit. ITs the same risk/reward thing. Wont take the risk unless there is a much highter reward. Margin on bs's is perhaps, at best, 5% now. Margin is going to go WAY up. Cost of goods to make is going to go way up. PRoducers will still produce just charge more, or it wont be worth it to produce and they will do something else. End of day, what will happen is stuff will cost alot more. Do I care? Not really. I'll just jack the price on my stuff that I do sell and don't personally use. If it sells, great, if not I wont sell it. I'm not going to lose money thats for sure. I'm chuckling cause the people that are doing this are just going to end up paying more for supplies later on. ITs a self balancing game and if the risk/reward ratio isn't there, it WILL balance itself out by causing the price of goods to rise till the ratio is correct. This man speaks the truth. I am no longer offering freighter service.

invaderzim Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.03 02:02:00 - [331] I didnt read every page so it may have been suggested, but it seems like the answer is... Logistics cruisers. This would require the freighter to be in a player corp. You can smartbomb a freighter, but the logistics cruisers have quite a range. Pack a couple and bs's with smarties or dones will have to work a lot harder for that kill and maybe you can hold out for concord. Since a freighter (like a pod) has little in the way of defensive capabilites, I would also recommend that the security hit you take when taking out a freighter be much harsher than a normal ship. Make that suicide bomber npc for weeks to be allowed back in high sec. You can't recycle bs flying characters as easily and this would limit the abuse a bit. ----------------- "Oh, he's very popular Ed. The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, **s, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, **heads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude."
Ryoma Sakamoto	Posted - 2007.05.03 02:31:00 - [332] Many people in this thread mention "Escorts" for Freighters, but does that mean all solo Freighter pilots (meaning those with no player corp affiliations whatsoever) must hire escorts every time they move around IN EMPIRE SPACE? Sure, I'd be happy to pay for escorts in LowSec or 0.0, but forcing people to do that in empire space sounds like racketeering to me. Wandering around Empire space and engaging in bulk commodity trading using a Freighter sounds like a plausable playstyle for a solo player to me, but that option evaporates if all Freighters are empire gankable for a profit. Freighter kills in empire space should be an instant -10.0 offense, considering that it is equivalent to pirating a cruise liner or a supertanker in US territorial waters. I'm sure USCG or USN would have MUCH to say about that.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.03 03:25:00 - [333] many freighters were ganked and more industrials were flown but still price isolation became the plague of EvE in other news i hear shuttles dont have a very good tank ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.03 05:29:00 - [334] If people have to muster up an escort every time they want to fly anything remotely profitable through empire, or take the risk of losing billions, they simply wont fly freighters. Things won't get made, prices will go way up, and all the nice available goods you like, won't be available. Hauling is a tedious low reward job most of the time. Escorting haulers is even more so. This will just be the straw that broke the camel's back. If you think that people will just be able to whistle up a good escort any time they want, you haven't done a lot of freighter escorts. I have. It sucks. Anyone who suggests this as an answer is a flat retard who wants to introduce endless tedium to this game for the sake of an occasional profit for themselves. You know it's not possible on the scale of the EVE economy, you just don't want to admit it because it flattens your feeble arguments. THE EVE ECONOMY IS DEPENDANT ON THE REASONABLY SAFE MOVEMENT OF FREIGHTERS IN EMPIRE SPACE, OR AT LEAST BEING ABLE TO PREDICT DANGER BY LOOKING AT YOUR WAR DECS. Anyone who claims otherwise is stupid or lying, or has never ever done a lick of industry. Please, flame away and call me a carebear who doesn't know his rear from a hole in the ground some more, it just proves you don't have any actual arguments to support your position that this loophole should be allowed to stand.
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.03 06:55:00 - [335] I'm most looking forward to talk to those seeing the sky falling, markets crash, prices rising, items getting rare, in a few months from now. It's always those apolyptical scenarios, but in the end, a few freighters with extremely valuable mods get ganked, and thats it, nothing more happens, no consequences, nothing. And what if I'm wrong? What if prices will go up for a lot of items? Well guess what, trading with a freighter will become more profitable, and those who still dare to do it, or those who muster a scout/escort will make more money than they do now. This again will attract everyone else, and so we re where we are today.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.03 07:03:00 - [336] Originally by: Chewan Mesa I'm most looking forward to talk to those seeing the sky falling, markets crash, prices rising, items getting rare, in a few months from now. oh boy you love setting up strawman arguments - its alright its real common on these forums Quote: It's always those apolyptical scenarios, but in the end, a few freighters with extremely valuable mods get ganked, and thats it, nothing more happens, no consequences, nothing. check this out - some prices rising isnt an apocalyptic scenario its reality Quote: And what if I'm wrong? What if prices will go up for a lot of items? nothing big will happen but it will definitely be significant Quote: Well guess what, trading with a freighter will become more profitable, and those who still dare to do it, or those who muster a scout/escort will make more money than they do now. This again will attract everyone else, and so we re where we are today. wrong because everything doesnt magically balance and counter balance within minutes so whether we get back to where we are today is not the question but how long it takes and what happens in the meantime ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.03 07:09:00 - [337] Originally by: SiJira check this out - some prices rising isnt an apocalyptic scenario its reality And ofc you are sure it has to do with freighter loot etc? Quote: wrong because everything doesnt magically balance and counter balance within minutes so whether we get back to where we are today is not the question but how long it takes and what happens in the meantime I didnt say it happens within a week did I?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.03 07:27:00 - [338] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: SiJira check this out - some prices rising isnt an apocalyptic scenario its reality And ofc you are sure it has to do with freighter loot etc? you must not know what role freighters play ... Quote: Quote: wrong because everything doesnt magically balance and counter balance within minutes so whether we get back to where we are today is not the question but how long it takes and what happens in the meantime I didnt say it happens within a week did I? you made it seem like the fact that itll eventually balance means that it wont really affect anything because of the negative feedback and we cant just downplay something because of the eventual return to equilibrium ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Anything Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.03 07:49:00 - [339] Edited by: Gladia Horusthu on 03/05/2007 07:47:29 Damn, I've been avoiding this thread the whole time... took me like 2 hours to read it all so I don't sound like an idiot when respond-- damn, I just admited spending two hours of my life on this thread, I'm already an idiot :P In for a penny, in for a pound. I have built all but one of the ships that I've flown. Currently I'm building a capital ship. Out of reprocessed loot from missions. If all the freighters disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't make a bit of difference in my little corner of the world. Personally, I think we should all go back to simpler times, when you resupplied in 0.0 from T1 haulers in safespots, after running them 30 jumps through gatecamps in one of the dozen systems that connects to deep space in Eve. Remind people of how logistics USED to be. Pvp too. But this thread almost tempts me to hop into a Domi and join a freighter ganking team. If only because seeing people complain about "safe space" (there is no such thing, by design) gets under my skin. Freighters are what they were designed to be. Giant, vulnerable cargo holds. Weaknesses in the logistical infrastructure of industry. And primarily, haulers of Capital Ship Assembly Arrays and Outpost Construction Platforms. They are NOT capital ships themselves. They require Advanced Spaceship Command, not the Capital Ships skill. They can use jumpgates. They cannot be compared to capital ships because they are not. They are performing their role as vulnerable weak links in the production pipeline admirably. If this caused all freighter pilots to dock permanently tomorrow, things would re-adjust and I wouldn't weep tears over it. They are fancy toys as far as I'm concerned, unless one is building outposts and supercaps. They are balanced as intended, from what I can see. And I'm still waiting for all the posts from pilots who have been ganked randomly in freighters in highsec space. Edit: and I'm sure many will agree that despite reading the thread I still sound like an idiot. But at least I'm an informed idiot
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.03 07:50:00 - [340] Edited by: Aramendel on 03/05/2007 07:49:13 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit. Yes. But it will still stop the attack dead cold. It has disadvantages, but that doesn't make it any less of a viable counter. Loosing 1 BS << loosing 20-30. The sec hit if you pod bystanders is the biggest problem. But having people within 5k of a freighter right after jumpin is not that a common occurance. That will only be a realistic danger in very busy systems, and freighter ganksquads will avoid those for 2 reasons: - most of them are "high" highsec. Best system for freighter ganks are 0.5-0.6, since concord takes longer to react there. - more people around = higher chance you loose stuff to neutral scavangers (or salvagers ) The problem with ECM burst is that, as has been noted, you can now only have one active at a time. And they changed recently the sensor strength of drones. Probably mainly to make them harder to probe, but this also means that an ECM burst now has less than a 50% chance to break a heavy drones lock.

Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.05.03 09:00:00 - [341] Originally by: aiaakii Remove the bumping... its staggeringly stupid game behavior to begin with... some basic calculations of mass should show that even a BS would do little more than 'splat' on the side of a freighter.. If CCP removed the ability to bump, pilots used web-frig escorts, Freighters wouldn't have this problem. tbh webbing a freighter making them align faster is a stupid game mechanic too. And my idea for e good freighter escort is a mix of blackbirds with sensor booster and 5 gallente jammers and osprey/exequror with oversized repair module; they only need to get two repair cycles off before CONCORD starts handling the problem.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.03 10:00:00 - [342] Originally by: Lord Dynastron Him and every other Freighter pilot out there. All your arguments were made by one person or another regarding Privateers as well (and m0o and Nanos and...). You do know how that turned out right? Based on how that turned out, why do you think this is any different? Anything that hurts Eve overall is bad for Eve and will be changed. Precident is something you would be wise to acknowledge. Sooo... the real question is... is popping freighters in the manner being discussed bad for Eve? First you have to define what is bad for Eve. Hint: loosing subscription in droves is bad for Eve. There is ONE major difference between this situation and the mOo/Priv one. mOo/Priv used game mechanics that had existed for a long time, and those mechanics where changed, forcing a change in mOo/Priv playstyle. Here we have a change that has already taken place, and freighter pilots are unwilling to adapt to that change. What I mean is, noone has found a loophole in gamemechanics, or whatever else was said about mOo/Priv. CCP has made a change in game mechanics, fully aware of what they are doing. Every freighter pilot must now adapt, just as every Privateer, and every member of mOo had to adapt. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
SkeletonDenial Caldari Alcoholics R' Us Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.03 13:18:00 - [343] Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ... This is eve.This is grief. Like it or quit Mr. I bought this account off ebay Jenny... Its Grief if you do it for fun, If you do it for profit, then its called pirating.
hilaw	Posted - 2007.05.06 13:13:00 - [344] We did mange to produce battle ships before they introduced freighters, it would just mean doing things the hard way again, which means more expensive ships / mods. As for anyone making comments about how are they are meant to get enough trit or pyrite for a super capital in one place they shouldn't be flying such a ship if they don't have enough industry support to figure that out Admittedly the gank cost for a filled freighter is a little low, but anyone flying an industrial ship about full of high end minerals runs the same risk. Given their far greater volume making them cost more to suicide makes sense, but they should not be invulnerable, or impossible to kill for profit, if filled with expensive goodies
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:42:00 - [345] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 15:38:28 First they came for the privateers..... I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:40:00 - [346] A sad day for us. Nobody understands the hauling community. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:51:00 - [347] Originally by: SiegeThey have 120,000 structure, and Concord, to protect them. I mean, seriously, have any of you folks crying doom and gloom ever tried to actually take down a freighter? Even with no concord interference they take an obscene amount of time and effort to destroy. Only other capital ships can routinely expect to survive combat as well as a freighter, and those are all banned from empire space except for a couple specific exemptions that have heavy restrictions. You need to arrange about two DOZEN players, or more, all with good drone skills, with pretty strong tanks to accomplish this. All of these players WILL loose their ships and take a decent security hit to do it, preventing them from doing it more than once every few days at the utter maximum if they dedicate every minute they play Eve toward this single task. PLUS they need another freighter to loot everything, that they will most likely be unable to defend because all their major combat ships were just blown up. This is NOT an issue right now, and most likely it wont ever BE an issue except for a few isolated incidents. If for some reason it does start happening constantly, then yeah make some changes. Personally I think some increases to structural resistances would be the best compromise. Maybe 15% across the board would be good, it will give a good increase to your survivability without creating a more serious exploit. And I also think that remote structural repair would be a good idea to put in the game now, since that will help the pilots of those big tubs without causing any problems that I can see as long as they are kept in line with currently structure repair mods. [/quote Booohooohooo. It takes them 38 seconds. 14 Dominixes going by the number of wrecks appearing on gate after the gankage. How much is 38 seconds? Does a freighter align in 38 seconds? No it does not. Especially due to the fact the dominixes warp scramble and it takes about 10 seconds for CONCORD to appear on scene and start jamming youre already watching a slideshow and if lucky all target locks have been broken you now have about 10-15 seconds to align, gain speed and warp out and in those 10-15 seconds if lucky you will see 5 slides because 100+ CONCORD warped in and there now are 200+ entities on the scene creating immense lag.
VonKaplanek III Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.06 17:14:00 - [348] Log in trap in high security space = nothing a freighter can do. No amount of scouts will help you. Either take away insurance payouts if concord kills you or make freighters have higher total hit points to let concord do their job.
Andreas Kallesoee Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.05.06 17:34:00 - [349] They could start by making ship scanning an act of agression so that you would be alartede to the fact that you have been scanned and the scanner would be killed, and i am backing the motion to have insurance payout removed if you are killed by concord.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.06 17:38:00 - [350] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Dynastron Him and every other Freighter pilot out there. All your arguments were made by one person or another regarding Privateers as well (and m0o and Nanos and...). You do know how that turned out right? Based on how that turned out, why do you think this is any different? Anything that hurts Eve overall is bad for Eve and will be changed. Precident is something you would be wise to acknowledge. Sooo... the real question is... is popping freighters in the manner being discussed bad for Eve? First you have to define what is bad for Eve. Hint: loosing subscription in droves is bad for Eve. There is ONE major difference between this situation and the mOo/Priv one. mOo/Priv used game mechanics that had existed for a long time, and those mechanics where changed, forcing a change in mOo/Priv playstyle. Here we have a change that has already taken place, and freighter pilots are unwilling to adapt to that change. What I mean is, noone has found a loophole in gamemechanics, or whatever else was said about mOo/Priv. CCP has made a change in game mechanics, fully aware of what they are doing. Every freighter pilot must now adapt, just as every Privateer, and every member of mOo had to adapt. /Ki Privateers have 700 out of 200.000 subscribers. That is about 0,35% of the EvE population. Moo probably had about the same numbers and higher percentage but the "naughty deeds" of a small group influenced the game experience of the whole community in a very negative way and CCP fixed the loophole. The scarcity of T2 BPOs influenced the EvE community in a negative way and CCP seeded more. Problem solved. Now they opened up another loophole. Ganking freighters for profit in what's supposed to be safe empire. Ganking of freighters as an economical deterrent was an option since the beginning. 2 months ago one could take 15 dominixes just as easily as it is done today and blow up empire freighters belonging to a hostile corporation's pilots or their NPC alts. The loss to the hostiles would have been made either way. A loss bigger than the cost of the lost ships. Here we see you; who are a 10 month old pvper who probably knows nothing about M0o other than they existed sometime looong ago and were really uber for a short period of time. LOL a covetor killed you trying to steal his ore. You also cannot know anything about operating a freighter and the game mechanics seem to be a bit too much to grasp. /Looks at the itty killmail by a covetor & giggles. Personally im probably one of the most carebearish people but i still managed to gather more pvp ship kills solo in my 3 carebearing years than you did in your pvp career and i wasn't part of a single fleet battle where i would rack up my kills either so when i talk about pvp i know what im talking about just as i know what im saying when talking about logistical nightmare that T2 production&sales is without having to constantly have 10 escorts and looking over my shoulder for a login trap ganksquad. I am sure empire freighter pilots all over Eve share my views opposite to a hadful of pvpers Fact is the current state allows for very small risk vs immense reward and should be fixed asap no matter how much you try to advocate for your lowsec pirating style of play bringing that kind of play into highsec will influence a vast majority of the community in a very negative way. Victims via the loss of their assets and the rest via a massive decline in quality of the supply and a general increase in prices which will hurt new players also because the first BS will cost say 20% more than it does now and a T2 fittings will again cost more than the ship itself does.

Erotic Irony RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:01:00 - [351] Originally by: Gamesguy In addition, this was a .6 system, so concord response was considerably slower than it would be in a .9 system like jita. Has anyone empirically verified this? I've heard this rhetoric since castor. Documentation please... It seems like, as far as the Karma vid was concerned, its impossible to tell given how shoddily CONCORD spawning was optimized. Eve has been around for four years and it seems silly the legal system hasn't advanced beyond kill rights or seen a real mechanism for repairing/logistics--that after several boosts the logistics ships are used for plexing and the t1 versions are completely untouched should tell you something is amiss. Perhaps its time for a revision of CONCORD practices and gameplay in general to be in line with need for speed PR blitz? ___
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 23:29:00 - [352] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 23:26:10 Originally by: Dolika Fact is the current state allows for very small risk vs immense reward and should be fixed asap no matter how much you try to advocate for your lowsec pirating style of play bringing that kind of play into highsec will influence a vast majority of the community in a very negative way. Victims via the loss of their assets and the rest via a massive decline in quality of the supply and a general increase in prices which will hurt new players also because the first BS will cost say 20% more than it does now and a T2 fittings will again cost more than the ship itself does. New characters are perfectly at liberty to produce/trade/haul. The Big Freighter pilots who haul billions of units across the galaxy can aford to make 1 isk profit per unit and still come out a billion isk up. The new players looking to make a living by trade are immedialty gimped by the greater buying/selling/hauling power. If Battleships go up in price by 20% and prices are no longer uniform - It opens up a whole new world to newer producers - who are not instantly undercut. And the newer traders - there will be good isk profit it hauling stuf in your Iteron. Fregither pilots must adapt. Alternativly i hear whining on the forums works sometimes. I applaud those who stand up for the little man by ganking freighters. I applaud the ganking of freighters - the pilots of whom skulk in npc corps - as they use their vast wealth and hauling power to deny noobs trade/production options. Their symbiotic realtionship with the few large producers deserves everything it gets. They are the real life equivalnet of the giant chains of superstores, and giant farms - who CRUSH the life out of the independant trader. SKUNK I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.07 01:28:00 - [353] Originally by: Le Skunk I applaud those who stand up for the little man by ganking freighters. I applaud the ganking of freighters - the pilots of whom skulk in npc corps - as they use their vast wealth and hauling power to deny noobs trade/production options. Their symbiotic realtionship with the few large producers deserves everything it gets. They are the real life equivalnet of the giant chains of superstores, and giant farms - who CRUSH the life out of the independant trader. SKUNK bigger load of crap couldnt have been said just because someone wants to freight goods instead of running missions doesnt mean they are "evil" and crushing anyones life if they wanna bore themselves this way instead of missions who are you to say ill of them ? fact is kiddies - CCP will change SOMETHING as long as this keeps increasing and i say GO FOR IT PEOPLE - kill all the freighters - you will only fuel the change ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Malcum Blakhurst	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:32:00 - [354] I have no problem with freighters dropping loot. The Problem is that Freighters could be killed before the change - and very few people did it - but they did it for the right reasons - to seriously hurt their opposition. Now people are just doing it because they can with the promise of phat freighter style loot. Before it was ok for freighters not to have any module slots and if you were at war you stayed docked or used a scout and only if you Absolutely had to move something large somewhere. Now You can't move anything large anywhere at any time because there is always the quite likely chance that you'll come across a High sec gank squad that will find you tasty. The problem here is that freighters have absolutely no way to protect themselves. In low sec and 0.0 you can take people with you to help- in High sec these same protection people will get concorded in self defense. As well as the Gankers getting the vast majority of their cost back in insurance. This would be equivilant to you getting 30 people together and going and crashing all your cars into a Walmart - filled with explosives and Firebomb then entire building - knick off with 1/2 the loot in a 18wheeler and then having the police show up and shoot the store clerk who pulled a shotgun on you to try save the store - quickly followed by the insurance companies turning up and paying you out for the loss of your cars in the firebombing. I'm sorry but WTF ?????? There has been some suggestion about giving freighters low and med slots - well honestly I'm with the gankers on not giving them Low slots thats just silly - but Med slots hell yes. If you've ever looked at a freighter you'll notice they have approx the same shield HP's as BS's and TONS or armour and structure. But you can't give them low slots for obvious reasons - so this leaves meds. Simply Either swap freighter Armour and Shield HP's round so they can use Shield boosters and be effective - or give them med slots to equip Structure reppers. Not as good as shield boosters but at least running 2-3 of them will give freighter pilots a fraction more time. This total rubbish about not using ships to move valuable items is just daft. They have to be moved somehow and I'd love to see how many of these gankers have had to be part of a Hauling convoy... ever ... its boring as all hell for the haulers and the guards. By all means gank AFK'ers - but freighter Pilots who sit then and manually warp from gate to gate for hours and hours on end should at least be able to defend themselves if attacked in HIGH SEC. /signed on the Freighters side - They need someway to defend themselves from HIGH SEC ganking (this excludes LOW sec and 0.0 space in which case guards are a practical option.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 14:57:00 - [355] Edited by: Le Skunk on 07/05/2007 14:55:18 Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Le Skunk I applaud those who stand up for the little man by ganking freighters. I applaud the ganking of freighters - the pilots of whom skulk in npc corps - as they use their vast wealth and hauling power to deny noobs trade/production options. Their symbiotic realtionship with the few large producers deserves everything it gets. They are the real life equivalnet of the giant chains of superstores, and giant farms - who CRUSH the life out of the independant trader. SKUNK bigger load of crap couldnt have been said just because someone wants to freight goods instead of running missions doesnt mean they are "evil" and crushing anyones life if they wanna bore themselves this way instead of missions who are you to say ill of them ? fact is kiddies - CCP will change SOMETHING as long as this keeps increasing and i say GO FOR IT PEOPLE - kill all the freighters - you will only fuel the change Im an industrial character - as everyone knows - And I tell you trade for the noob in an iteron is a difficult business. Freighters haul items in such a large amount - they can price said items at just a few isk above what they bought them from - and make a killing. The noob in the iteron - can haul a fraction of the amount a freighter does - so he has to have a larger markup on each item he hauls. Thus he cannot compete with the greedy, treble chinned, fat cheeked freighter pilot. Someone said that prices across teh galaxy will become less uniform. I say good - this also provides many opportunitys for the little man trader as more opportunitys will pop up in the markets. Also the small producing corp - who churn our one or two BS a week - will see a better return on their investments - if some huge producer - who can afford to take less retrun per unit isnt in control Your right though - i can see the whine crescendo building. CCP will change it im sure. So get your ganks in while you can. Ganking freighter aids the little man. Freighters should be used to transport corp/alliance goods (with an escort - this is what corps are supposed to be doing) NOT to crush the life out of markets. SKUNK
Nimrias	Posted - 2007.05.07 17:17:00 - [356] I have the fix. The freighter pilots don't want high-sec ganking. The PvPers want a potentially big payday. So... Restrict freighters to low-sec/no-sec only, just like other "capital sized" ships! No more high-sec ganks, and pirates have an opportunity of freighter pew pew pew. Everyone is happy. High sec managed to move crap around before freighters, it can and will manage after freighters. Market diversity is good. What happens when one large trading / industry corp has thousands of these huge secure cargo containers with engines flying around "normalizing" prices across the universe? Then we'll be playing Wal-Mart Online. I completely understand the people not wanting to interact with the interactive universe that they are paying to enjoy. I read their point of view all the time here on the forums.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.07 17:49:00 - [357] Originally by: Le Skunk The noob in the iteron - can haul a fraction of the amount a freighter does - so he has to have a larger markup on each item he hauls. Thus he cannot compete with the greedy, treble chinned, fat cheeked freighter pilot. Someone said that prices across teh galaxy will become less uniform. I say good - this also provides many opportunitys for the little man trader as more opportunitys will pop up in the markets. Also the small producing corp - who churn our one or two BS a week - will see a better return on their investments - if some huge producer - who can afford to take less retrun per unit isnt in control freighers arent always huge producers - sometimes they dont even own that much - they might have saved it all up from the ITERON V trips and trained for and now bought a freighter you keep painting them as some big evil texas oil owners that are fat and greedy maybe if each freighter cost 10 billion and training up to it took half the time i would agree with you but it takes quite a bit of time to train up to one and its what every hauler, trader, and manufacturer dreams of (the ones not poisoned by "freighters SUX L O L " comments ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
big mang	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:34:00 - [358] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 23:26:10 Originally by: Dolika Fact is the current state allows for very small risk vs immense reward and should be fixed asap no matter how much you try to advocate for your lowsec pirating style of play bringing that kind of play into highsec will influence a vast majority of the community in a very negative way. Victims via the loss of their assets and the rest via a massive decline in quality of the supply and a general increase in prices which will hurt new players also because the first BS will cost say 20% more than it does now and a T2 fittings will again cost more than the ship itself does. New characters are perfectly at liberty to produce/trade/haul. The Big Freighter pilots who haul billions of units across the galaxy can aford to make 1 isk profit per unit and still come out a billion isk up. The new players looking to make a living by trade are immedialty gimped by the greater buying/selling/hauling power. If Battleships go up in price by 20% and prices are no longer uniform - It opens up a whole new world to newer producers - who are not instantly undercut. And the newer traders - there will be good isk profit it hauling stuf in your Iteron. Fregither pilots must adapt. Alternativly i hear whining on the forums works sometimes. I applaud those who stand up for the little man by ganking freighters. I applaud the ganking of freighters - the pilots of whom skulk in npc corps - as they use their vast wealth and hauling power to deny noobs trade/production options. Their symbiotic realtionship with the few large producers deserves everything it gets. They are the real life equivalnet of the giant chains of superstores, and giant farms - who CRUSH the life out of the independant trader. SKUNK the lord ganking and exploit alliance in the game supports freighter ganking IM sooooo shocked, seriously privateers get out of jita and let CCP fix the lag there, if you are carrying things not in containers in a freighter your plain stupid
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:46:00 - [359] Originally by: big mang the lord ganking and exploit alliance in the game supports freighter ganking IM sooooo shocked, seriously privateers get out of jita and let CCP fix the lag there, if you are carrying things not in containers in a freighter your plain stupid or maybe you just dont know much about them because you dont read forums shock ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
CEO Phil	Posted - 2007.05.10 02:23:00 - [360] You know, I've been playing eve since 2003. I've seen a lot of changes and had a lot of fun. I've mined, ran missions, manufactured and sold stuff and done a bit of PvP. I'm really not surprised that CCP added this "feature." If CCP didn't want high-sec ganking, they would have fixed the problem long ago. Personally I don't like the high-ganking. It smacks of picking on the weak or defenseless -- it's mean spirited. I don't live that way in RL and, even though this is a game, I don't play that way. High-sec ganking changed the way I played the game. It made it less fun. Once I got the freighter, it got a little better. However, this recent change, combined with the high-sec ganking, just made me cancel my accounts. It just got to be not worth it. Mining was fun, but then the roids seemed to be raped by what seemed to be macro miners so I had to find more and more obscure systems -- pain in the ass. Missions were fun, but they do get old after a while. PvP was pretty fun but not really my thing (flame away if you want). I really got into the manufacturing, but it requires a lot of minerals and moving a lot of stuff. I did much of the tedious heavy-moving afk.. Now that's more of a risk. It's a risk that I really don't care to make anymore. It's just too much of a pain in the ass. After reading what I just wrote, I realize that I sound a little whiney, but ah well, it's a forum; flame me if you don't like it.

SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.10 02:27:00 - [361] people who fly a freighter arent weak they choose to have no defense ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.10 03:27:00 - [362] Originally by: big mang [snip] if you are carrying things not in containers in a freighter your plain stupid Tell me how to get Cruisers or a BS or two into a can and I'll gladly pass on the information to others. These ships were meant to carry large items that other ships can't, that often means items that are too large to even fit in a can. Besides, like I said before, with insurance being paid out even for Concord ganks, player rats are in a win/much bigger win situation. Even if the Freighter cans are empty, the rats don't really lose anything except a bit of a sec drop. A couple of hours ratting or mission running soon cures that and they can get more isk in the process. However, the Freighter pilot stands to lose over 700 million isk even if they are insured with platinum level insurance. That's a fair number of days mining, ratting or mission running and they have to make it up before they can get another Freighter to continue their trade and start making isk again. It's equivalent to losing 7 uninsured BS's. --
CrestoftheStars Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.05.10 04:47:00 - [363] to think that it can even be discussed.... attacking other players in high sec is wrong full STOP!! no discussion needs to be made here. CCP STOP IT!!!! if people can't handle the freedom (which they clearly can since this is such a big problem) then rules (mechanics in a game) will go in and stop em... so make it that you can't attack unless some one agree's to a "dual" "whatever thing, in high sec. problem solved and people moving on as the game was intended.. you can't handle the freedom, well then you will not have it for long.. responsibillity comes with oppotunities you know.. ___________________________________________ if eve had This kind of control system combinet with it's SP and advanced weaponry system it have. http://sco.gpotato.com/
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.10 13:25:00 - [364] Originally by: CrestoftheStars to think that it can even be discussed.... attacking other players in high sec is wrong full STOP!! no discussion needs to be made here. CCP STOP IT!!!! if people can't handle the freedom (which they clearly can since this is such a big problem) then rules (mechanics in a game) will go in and stop em... so make it that you can't attack unless some one agree's to a "dual" "whatever thing, in high sec. problem solved and people moving on as the game was intended.. you can't handle the freedom, well then you will not have it for long.. responsibillity comes with oppotunities you know.. im a bit lost there is no freedom if its 100% prevented so your post goes something like this "put people in cages to make them free !" ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Devious Syn	Posted - 2007.05.10 13:39:00 - [365] This game gets better and better don't it? 1) Create a ship (that is probably overpowered). 2) get everyone use to it and how its used. 3) Nerf it so it becomes useless. (Unless of course freighters weren't suppose to be used to move valuable stuff in high sec anyways)
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.10 17:07:00 - [366] Originally by: Devious Syn This game gets better and better don't it? 1) Create a ship (that is probably overpowered). 2) get everyone use to it and how its used. 3) Nerf it so it becomes useless. (Unless of course freighters weren't suppose to be used to move valuable stuff in high sec anyways) loot did not nerf freighters it put them back on par with wait for it-- every other ship in the game ! ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Igus	Posted - 2007.05.10 17:27:00 - [367] If a player even attempts kill another in high sec they should have their sec standing reduced by -5.0 for each time.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.10 17:58:00 - [368] Originally by: CrestoftheStars to think that it can even be discussed.... attacking other players in high sec is wrong full STOP!! no discussion needs to be made here. CCP STOP IT!!!! Someone needs to read this thread over. I see little evidence of preventing attacks in highsec, rather that a freighter should have some form of defence. Just like any other ship. Originally by: SiJira loot did not nerf freighters it put them back on par with wait for it-- every other ship in the game ! WRONG! Give it highs mids and lows and a half decent CPU/PG and it puts it back on par but ATM, it's a pretty sizable bullseye and nothing more. Personally I'd settle for mids alone since it would be better than nothing at all. Every ship, no matter what it is (even a shuttle) has the right to defend itself against attack even if this means defensive mods only (shield tank for example). --
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.10 19:13:00 - [369] Originally by: Malcum Blakhurst I have no problem with freighters dropping loot. The Problem is that Freighters could be killed before the change - and very few people did it - but they did it for the right reasons - to seriously hurt their opposition. Now people are just doing it because they can with the promise of phat freighter style loot. Before it was ok for freighters not to have any module slots and if you were at war you stayed docked or used a scout and only if you Absolutely had to move something large somewhere. Now You can't move anything large anywhere at any time because there is always the quite likely chance that you'll come across a High sec gank squad that will find you tasty. The problem here is that freighters have absolutely no way to protect themselves. In low sec and 0.0 you can take people with you to help- in High sec these same protection people will get concorded in self defense. As well as the Gankers getting the vast majority of their cost back in insurance. This would be equivilant to you getting 30 people together and going and crashing all your cars into a Walmart - filled with explosives and Firebomb then entire building - knick off with 1/2 the loot in a 18wheeler and then having the police show up and shoot the store clerk who pulled a shotgun on you to try save the store - quickly followed by the insurance companies turning up and paying you out for the loss of your cars in the firebombing. I'm sorry but WTF ?????? There has been some suggestion about giving freighters low and med slots - well honestly I'm with the gankers on not giving them Low slots thats just silly - but Med slots hell yes. If you've ever looked at a freighter you'll notice they have approx the same shield HP's as BS's and TONS or armour and structure. But you can't give them low slots for obvious reasons - so this leaves meds. Simply Either swap freighter Armour and Shield HP's round so they can use Shield boosters and be effective - or give them med slots to equip Structure reppers. Not as good as shield boosters but at least running 2-3 of them will give freighter pilots a fraction more time. This total rubbish about not using ships to move valuable items is just daft. They have to be moved somehow and I'd love to see how many of these gankers have had to be part of a Hauling convoy... ever ... its boring as all hell for the haulers and the guards. By all means gank AFK'ers - but freighter Pilots who sit then and manually warp from gate to gate for hours and hours on end should at least be able to defend themselves if attacked in HIGH SEC. /signed on the Freighters side - They need someway to defend themselves from HIGH SEC ganking (this excludes LOW sec and 0.0 space in which case guards are a practical option. If you want realistic insurance, then realistic cops come with that too: They'll turn up 10 mins - 2 hours after the shooting starts and take 2 or 3 days to find a suspect. And then the Gallante pilot who ganked you will go scot-free, while a random near-by Minmatari gets 15-to-life after getting a confession beaten out of him. Justice is served! Oh yeah: Your insurance doesn't pay out either, after the loss adjuster notes that you jumped your freighter into a system shown on the map as having 3 or more ship losses in the last hour. Oh and your no-claims bonus is shot, and your premiums get jacked as you're obviously a high risk. This realistic enough for you yet...? This realistic enough
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.10 20:14:00 - [370] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: CrestoftheStars to think that it can even be discussed.... attacking other players in high sec is wrong full STOP!! no discussion needs to be made here. CCP STOP IT!!!! Someone needs to read this thread over. I see little evidence of preventing attacks in highsec, rather that a freighter should have some form of defence. Just like any other ship. Originally by: SiJira loot did not nerf freighters it put them back on par with wait for it-- every other ship in the game ! WRONG! Give it highs mids and lows and a half decent CPU/PG and it puts it back on par but ATM, it's a pretty sizable bullseye and nothing more. Personally I'd settle for mids alone since it would be better than nothing at all. Every ship, no matter what it is (even a shuttle) has the right to defend itself against attack even if this means defensive mods only (shield tank for example). if you want slots there are some very neat transports and industrials the freighter is a tradeoff for slots < huge cargohold ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some

Jor Renalt	Posted - 2007.05.10 20:56:00 - [371] I'm fairly new to the game so I don't really have any direct experience with what's being discussed here. However, it does seem to me that giving frieghters one or two mid slots would make things a bit more balanced. At the same time though if a hauler hired even one escort to gang with them for the trip it would make ganking far less practicle-even impossible (form what I understand). Even one moderately armed ship would delay the gankers long enough to let Concord show up. Hell, you could even hire someone to stay one jump behind you with another frieghter (empty) that could loot your wreck in the event of a gank. I'm probably naive and totally off base here, but just some thoughts.
Denebola Rises Regalis Industria Scientia Entreprendre Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.05.10 20:57:00 - [372] If Freighters not dropping loot was "out of balance" before, it is more out of balance now. Being Eve, people will find a way to survive, adjust, or leave. imho: this change was not thought thru in the side-effects that it is causing. That is what MM does - surprises developers. So I hope that CCP does what it expects of us - adjust again, and bring the pendulum more to the middle rather than high on the other side.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.10 21:21:00 - [373] Just a bit of backstory I'm missing. Why were freighters never allowed slots in the first place? This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.10 21:23:00 - [374] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 10/05/2007 21:20:05 Originally by: Janu Hull Just a bit of backstory I'm missing. Why were freighters never allowed slots in the first place? Reasons that come to mind at the moment is for one, with low slots they can get a huge increase in cargo capacity. And their capacity was intended to be as it is. Another one coming with the above would be capital ships being hauler into high sec in freighters, which also isnt supposed to be possible. Having mid slots and lows means that freighters are no longer the slow, very slowly moving, dull ships they are now, yet, they were intended to be just that, huge hulls with lots of space.
Lilith Bloodsong	Posted - 2007.05.17 19:12:00 - [375] If player insurence on illegal activities is removed then pirating becomes non profitable, that massivly decreses the demand for mods and the market is flooded wich in turn decreases the value of mods and freighters become useless anyway
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.17 19:24:00 - [376] Kind of sad. Still no word from the Devs after 13 pages. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.18 17:39:00 - [377] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Kind of sad. Still no word from the Devs after 13 pages. Do you even read anything anybody else says? Did you miss the constant references in mulitple threads that the fix for this is already in testing on singularity? Concord is getting boosted to pop/jam drones on arrival. Did you miss the post by Wrangler in another thread that said the core concept of suicide ganking isn't broken? Or do you just complain, complain, complain nonstop without even logging in? You're just going to have to wait for the patch, no word yet if it will be in the May 22nd patch yet or Revelations 2.0
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.18 23:11:00 - [378] Edited by: Drizit on 18/05/2007 23:09:51 Double post --
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.18 23:11:00 - [379] Originally by: SiJira if you want slots there are some very neat transports and industrials the freighter is a tradeoff for slots < huge cargohold You are joking right? Let me know how to repackage a large ship like a BS to transport to a market area in an Indy or a Transporter and I'll go along with it. Unless of course you want all the manufacturing slots near hub systems to be used by ship builders. Until CCP create an unlimited supply of slots for manufacture, copying and Material research in every station, I guess we'll have to make do with using stations that are not close to hub systems. So when you start complaining that you have to make 20+ jumps to find a BS for sale, I'll remind you about this. OK? In America in the 1800's, trains used to have no means of defence against attacks. After they lost a few to Indians and bandits, they started to mount gatling guns on them. I guess they traded off massive cargo movement for armament but soon put some guns on it when they got too many attacks. Why should Freighter pilots be any different? It's not as if they are really asking for something to shoot back with, they just want something to help last long enough to make using them worth the cost. ATM, they are little more use than a rich players toy and a poor players target. --
TerryTigre Dragonquestor	Posted - 2007.05.26 16:54:00 - [380] There is a easy solution, just dont use freighters till they can actually last more than 38 seconds against 15 dominis. Thats why i postponed buying a freigher even though i have the skills for it now. Good thing too, i was looking at freighter threads to learn about them, and the thread a couple of weeks back said all i needed to know

Kooraia	Posted - 2007.05.27 01:44:00 - [381] there was never anything wrong with empire ganks except the insurance paid to criminals. as long as this is not fixed, another anti-empire thread will show up every 2-6 weeks as the issue is upsetting some people, which are a majority compared to the gankers.
E Vile Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:23:00 - [382] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Yes they can. With good planning, and good teamwork. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Neue Ziel	Posted - 2007.06.17 01:28:00 - [383] IÆve been listening to this debate for a couple of weeks now. I canÆt conclude that high-sec freighter ganks are anything more then griefing. Sorry, thatÆs how it is. Despite all the griefers crying about how high-sec shouldnÆt be safe itÆs obviously supposed to be. You get a BIG hint when Concord flies in and blows stuff up. Like it or not High-sec is carebearville. Newbie players (and those of us who arenÆt in the mood for PVP) need a place where we can recover from the wars or make ISK to cover PVP losses; and generally have a change of pace. This is a game with great scope and thatÆs the way it should be. Not a one trick wonder like WOW. If EVE was meant to be 24/7 PVP there would be no Concord, no security hits or any other penalties for PVP in high sec. High sec is also intended as a reasonably safe place for miners/producers/haulers to make a living. They all make stuff I would like to buy and if they quit youÆll get a taste of what things are like in SWG where you have to grind for hours if not days to buy simple things simply because everything costs so much. ThatÆs not good for anybody. So how do we deal with this? Well thereÆs the legitimate yet boring solution of making Concord tougher, nerfing insurance payouts and so forth but IÆm for being creative: Give Freighters capital ship weapons, armor, modules and the associated stats to use them. LetÆs be logical for a second. In the really real world nobody sent an unarmed ship loaded down with goodies across the ocean for anybody who cared to run a Jolly Roger up the mast to steal. They guarded these things pretty extensively: http://www.cindyvallar.com/galleons.html Quick summation: The average Spanish galleon loaded with Aztec gold and other New-world loot set sail with 30 cannons and 180 marines aboard. ôFreightersö of their time were fairly heavily armed. Why should freighters in EVE be any different? Why wouldnÆt you protect a billion dollar investment with the best weapons and shields/armor you can buy? To suggest otherwise is kind of silly; people in real life donÆt leave cash and valuables unguarded why should they in EVE. This turns high-sec griefing into simple piracy. Any pirate trying to take a tanked and armed freighter is going to have a devil of a time doing it. ThatÆs the way it should be. If you want to smash open the treasure chest to get the glittering prizes inside youÆre going to have to work for it. AND youÆre going to work very fast because Concord is on the way. If you think thatÆs unfair think about how much luck a bunch of mercenaries would have trying to break into Fort Knox. The Army would be on the way and would likely kill the lot of them if they werenÆt very fast and very lucky. Again this is fairly realistic. Sailing into civilization where the legitimate navy has warships on patrol might well get you killed. ThatÆs why pirates attacked people on the high seas (i.e. low-sec;) where no help was likely to come. Using that analogy if you show up with 30 dominixes you can no longer insta-pop the Freighter. Conversely; the Freighter being huge can instapop any given Dominix. The Domis have to get in close, and nos the crap out of the freighter, drone *****and hope for the best. Risky but it might well be doable for the right pirate gang. In the ideal world youÆd have to board the freighter; subdue the crew and off load the goods to your transport ships but until walking in stations and associated mechanics become a reality I doubt weÆre going to see that happen. For the moment I think this restores the balance somewhat. Freighters will hold vast rewards for bold pirates; but they will be difficult and defensible transports for cagey merchant captains. What they wonÆt be is easy pickings for griefers seeking an ôI win!ö button and cash resister; thatÆs the way it ought to be. TheyÆre always crying about how earning ISK shouldnÆt be easy; well that applies to them as well.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:14:00 - [384] I would have thought that after a month of nothing happening on this subject, including nobody even posting in this thread anymore, people would realize that this just is not a problem. How many pages back did you have to go to even find the thread again after 20+ days since its last post? When even the carebears stopped complaining, you know there's no need to fix anything here.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:37:00 - [385] Edited by: Zeko Rena on 17/06/2007 02:37:05 lol -------------------------- Big boys, with big gun's
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:53:00 - [386] Originally by: Siege I would have thought that after a month of nothing happening on this subject, including nobody even posting in this thread anymore, people would realize that this just is not a problem. How many pages back did you have to go to even find the thread again after 20+ days since its last post? When even the carebears stopped complaining, you know there's no need to fix anything here. WOW YOU REASON NECROING GO YOU! snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.06.17 03:04:00 - [387] Originally by: SasRipper Originally by: Siege I would have thought that after a month of nothing happening on this subject, including nobody even posting in this thread anymore, people would realize that this just is not a problem. How many pages back did you have to go to even find the thread again after 20+ days since its last post? When even the carebears stopped complaining, you know there's no need to fix anything here. WOW YOU REASON NECROING GO YOU! Errr.... I was the one replying to the necro, not the one performing it.
Neue Ziel	Posted - 2007.06.17 18:32:00 - [388] Originally by: Siege I would have thought that after a month of nothing happening on this subject, including nobody even posting in this thread anymore, people would realize that this just is not a problem. How many pages back did you have to go to even find the thread again after 20+ days since its last post? When even the carebears stopped complaining, you know there's no need to fix anything here. Still on the front one for me; and I disagree there's 'no need to fix anything.'
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.17 19:53:00 - [389] Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/06/2007 19:52:43 Originally by: big mang Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 23:26:10 Originally by: Dolika Fact is the current state allows for very small risk vs immense reward and should be fixed asap no matter how much you try to advocate for your lowsec pirating style of play bringing that kind of play into highsec will influence a vast majority of the community in a very negative way. Victims via the loss of their assets and the rest via a massive decline in quality of the supply and a general increase in prices which will hurt new players also because the first BS will cost say 20% more than it does now and a T2 fittings will again cost more than the ship itself does. New characters are perfectly at liberty to produce/trade/haul. The Big Freighter pilots who haul billions of units across the galaxy can aford to make 1 isk profit per unit and still come out a billion isk up. The new players looking to make a living by trade are immedialty gimped by the greater buying/selling/hauling power. If Battleships go up in price by 20% and prices are no longer uniform - It opens up a whole new world to newer producers - who are not instantly undercut. And the newer traders - there will be good isk profit it hauling stuf in your Iteron. Fregither pilots must adapt. Alternativly i hear whining on the forums works sometimes. I applaud those who stand up for the little man by ganking freighters. I applaud the ganking of freighters - the pilots of whom skulk in npc corps - as they use their vast wealth and hauling power to deny noobs trade/production options. Their symbiotic realtionship with the few large producers deserves everything it gets. They are the real life equivalnet of the giant chains of superstores, and giant farms - who CRUSH the life out of the independant trader. SKUNK the lord ganking and exploit alliance in the game supports freighter ganking IM sooooo shocked, seriously privateers get out of jita and let CCP fix the lag there, if you are carrying things not in containers in a freighter your plain stupid On the plus side - whoever necrod this post gave me the opportunity to call this guy a blithering idiot. Totally ignored all my well laid out and 100% forumpwning points SKUNK
Devious	Posted - 2007.06.18 11:41:00 - [390] Well time to put my two cents in, and i know those Dev's do listen to me. many idea's ive put forward have become reality, for freighters dont give them low slots or mid slots or even high slots. Give them Reinforced mode. Strontium reinforced like those dreads have. the ability to take a pounding while not going anywhere for about 10 minutes. goodbye freighter gank squads , hello Active Piloting of these slow ships, anyone that plonks a freighter on autopilot has to much free time in eve and deserves to be ganked, a simple module that when a pilot is awake and flying the freighter can turn on. End of Topic really.

frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:19:00 - [391] Originally by: Jonathan Xavier Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Dynastron Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Bingo Could someone please sumarize the ways to defend a freighter (all of which are listed in this thread) for the morons who can't be assed to read the entire thread? I can't deal with people like this anymore... /me goes off to blow something up. /Ki Ok - I'll give it a go: Remote repping BS escort - Not practical due to insane cap usage of remote reps. Most battleships will get one, maybe two cycles before they cap out. Can easily be mitgated by the addition of additional ganking BSes. Smartbombing BS escort - Dangerous to the escort pilot, and not guaranteed to work Logistic ship escort - Not everyone has people that can jump in one of these at the drop of a hat. Yes, it is possible to defend freighters in empire. It is just that it is not realistic to do a full corporation escort operation every time the freighter undocks in 1.0 space. The big problem here, is that corporations with no active war decs are forced to escort freighters through high security empire the way that they would through 0.0. With the apparent ease of a freighter gank, there is little difference between bringing a freighter through a busy system in empire or 0.0. As it is right now there are hundreds (or maybe thousands) of mundane frieghter runs done through empire daily, for logistical reasons. Making them all targets will increase the cost of goods for everyone. The risk / reward calculation is totally out of whack for this element of gameplay. A freighter pilot moving simple trade goods or minerals from point A to point B will make only a few percent profit for the several hour trip. While this can be profitable, it can't really afford paying dedicated wingmen for several hours of their time. So get your corpmates to do it! Right, the eight to ten frieghters some larger corporations have running around empire every day just to keep the wheels of a 0.0 corporation greased would mean the corporation would have to live in empire, just to escort its freighters. It's just not practical to require a 5-6 BS escort fleet on every freighter trip through empire. Flying a freighter is boring, arduous work for little pay. It literally is the backbone of the eve economy. By prohibiting frieghters from moving bulk materials and construction parts through empire without tedious escort duty, everything will increase in price. Don't grief the pilots. Lastly, I think being able to get loot from freighters is great. Killing freighters is a huge blow to any corporation. Instead of attacking them in a suicide gank, get them with a wardec. Perhaps put a restriction on ship size for pilots in NPC corps (i.e. NPC corp infrastructure unable to support the undocking procedures and servicing costs of capital ships) would get all freighter pilots into wardeccable corporations. Fine, then if you want to kill a freighter, war dec the corp driving it. Until then, don't make it profitable and easy to kill freighters in high-sec. As I said before, allowing freighters to trade cargo space for security seems like a fair fix to prevent them from being randomly attacked in high-security space by pirates. If you want to make them a bigger target yet, get freighters out of NPC corporations. Iteron does not hold 100 000m3 cargo freighter are design as logistic ship not super industrial.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:20:00 - [392] FFS USE THE THREADS ON THE FIRST PAGE YOU N00B ALT Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:23:00 - [393] And stop the multi quote posts.. just quote the person you are responding to. I hate scrolling half a screen of quote to get to a single sentence answer. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:24:00 - [394] Originally by: Illyria Ambri And stop the multi quote posts.. just quote the person you are responding to. I hate scrolling half a screen of quote to get to a single sentence answer. quit agreeing with me! we are mortal enemies Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:50:00 - [395] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Illyria Ambri And stop the multi quote posts.. just quote the person you are responding to. I hate scrolling half a screen of quote to get to a single sentence answer. quit agreeing with me! we are mortal enemies I protest!!1 I am NOT Amarr!! ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 05:45:00 - [396] nah amarr aren't scarey enoguh to be mortal enemies with Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Dylatar Gallente Ocean Eleven	Posted - 2007.07.26 10:54:00 - [397] Edited by: Dylatar on 26/07/2007 10:54:26 Originally by: Trind2222 Hope this will limit amout of freighters in jita is so anoying when you undock stasion whit 6 freighters outside. You're very funny! Ever tried to undock in Jita with a freighter? There wouldn't be 6 freighters near the undocking tube if not all the other nerds would stay there and blocking their way. When I undock my freighter in Jita, I set an immediate course straight away from station, because I need more room to turn and align to the gate. But first you have to find a direction where nobody is in your way.
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.26 11:01:00 - [398] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 29/04/2007 15:45:08 Don't tell me go get a scout and check whether there is a gate gank next door because there is no way for a freighter to defensively tank a gank long enough for Concord or MWD/warp away to a station. You do not look for trouble. Trouble finds you. Sounds to me you have an issue, and that issue is not having a scout ;) ----------------------------------------------
Dylatar Gallente Ocean Eleven	Posted - 2007.07.26 12:43:00 - [399] Originally by: Ki An It's a balance issue, can't you see that? You get insane amounts of cargo space. The trade off is that you can't defend yourself, but must rely on others to do that for you. Give a freighter slots and you'll have a majorly imbalanced creation. Mk.5 gets big amount of cargospace, can fit expanders and shieldtank in a limited way. We fly with imbalanced indys on your argumentation. Sure, an Indy is not a freigher, but you need less gank to popp a indy, so the limited defense is comparable. I see no imbalance. Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Why can you have a shield on everything from a frig to a titan but not on a freighter? also Turrets are externally mounted, what you cant find room on a freighter to mount one? Again, balance. See none. Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Originally by: Ki An Surely you can see a problem with a freighter that could be used for mining? I mean, seriously... In my opinion theres no need for a hislot on a freighter. But med and low for passive defense would be nice. That wouldn't make a freigher the uber-tanker nor a killer or afk-miner.
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:37:00 - [400] Originally by: Gaius Kador Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 29/04/2007 15:45:08 Don't tell me go get a scout and check whether there is a gate gank next door because there is no way for a freighter to defensively tank a gank long enough for Concord or MWD/warp away to a station. You do not look for trouble. Trouble finds you. Sounds to me you have an issue, and that issue is not having a scout ;) Scouting course provide much successful work.

frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 21:02:00 - [401] Originally by: Devious Well time to put my two cents in, and i know those Dev's do listen to me. many idea's ive put forward have become reality, for freighters dont give them low slots or mid slots or even high slots. Give them Reinforced mode. Strontium reinforced like those dreads have. the ability to take a pounding while not going anywhere for about 10 minutes. goodbye freighter gank squads , hello Active Piloting of these slow ships, anyone that plonks a freighter on autopilot has to much free time in eve and deserves to be ganked, a simple module that when a pilot is awake and flying the freighter can turn on. End of Topic really. Invincible bad for EVE.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.07.26 21:33:00 - [402] Originally by: frihetskjemper Invincible bad for EVE. So are necro thread. Let the dead rest in peace. Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.07.26 21:34:00 - [403] Originally by: Rod Blaine 1. its not griefing. 2. its not a problem. Sure, you can't escort in high sec. You can however scout. If there's 20 AAA bs's sitting at a gate on a well-tavelled route in high sec then o-m-g it's so damn hard to guess what they're doing there isn't it ? All ths really does is punish those travelling afk. Those are the ones that'll get picked off this way, and that's not a part of the playerbase I feel particularly sorry for. That is SOOO simple to get around though. You just keep them parked a couple AU away fr omthe gate. Have a friggy start bumping the said freighter. That freighter will NOT be even close to warp before the BS's are on top of it. At that point, ANY escort you have, is useless. The BS's will still go directly for the freighter. The freighter will die. ( Also, you CANNOT use smartbombs for deffense of the freighter against the drones. The smartbomb will just get YOU killed by Concorde for trying to deffend and kill the drones) Essentially, There is no reliable way to scout. there is no reliable way to escort, and ther eis no way to defend a freighter in high sec. It just simply cannot be done. Nerf the freighter griefers. No Concrode payout. Find some way to keep trial accounts from attacking them at all. Disposable trial accounts are what truely make this possible. Since you dont get any sec hit to keep you out of empire. ________________________________________________________
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.18 02:19:00 - [404] Do drones work like pets?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.08.18 02:59:00 - [405] Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -TheDagda ([email protected])
Goonswarmalwayslose	Posted - 2007.08.18 03:16:00 - [406] 0.0 is safer than empire. A domi cost barley anything, so you can easily be killed in empire because you dont lose anything, except your noobship equivalant price to a domi, it just isnt worth anything. So basically you can kill frieghter with a free ship. I have killed a freighter before... thx for the 10000000 percent profit, for 10 mil? thx ;). Freighters can be killed at will, anyone who said they can be defended are completely ********, and should no post if they do not have facts. 30 bs insta pop ;). Now 0.0 is safe all the system are empty just need to scout. try jamming, try anything, 30 domis and the freighter goes instapop, so dont bother defending hehe. Im coming for yA!!
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.08.18 04:38:00 - [407] Another necroed freighter thread? Whats the deal? Ok but my 2 cents. A simple solution that would stop the no risk for big profit gank squads and leave the targeted we want this cat dead for x y or z reason well enough alone and fully doable. Don't buff concord, don't add more slots to the freighters. Make passive scanning of ships in hi sec a criminal flag period. Criminal flagging would stop those noob ships sitting at gates passive scanning for targets risk free flagged for killing by the freighter pilot his corp and his gang. Then there would be some fun hunts as corps gangs and etc went hunting down these passive scan alts if they are at their kb flying their freighters and see that little frig or whatnot parked outside a gate suddenly flashing red to them.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.18 04:49:00 - [408] Originally by: cuteboylookingatyou Do drones work like pets? Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.08.18 15:46:00 - [409] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: cuteboylookingatyou Do drones work like pets? ROFL,, that is awesome!
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.18 15:58:00 - [410] Originally by: Akoudoulos Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them and how this can work? 20-30 bs can almost instapop a freighter :) no matter how many escort pilots you have its is impossible to defend the freighter lag+concord does the job um, so ur saying the fleet that puts almost a bil or 2 on the line shouldnt be able to take down a ship of equal value to the fleet? The people that kill freighters in hi-sec spend their money in hopes that the freighter drops most of whats in its cargo hold. Theres NOTHING wrong with hi sec freighter ganks. ________________________________ High Sec PvP

Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.18 16:08:00 - [411] i agree, there's NOTHING wrong with those ganks. on top of that, i always wondered... can you remote boost freighters enough to make the gank squad necessary even more expensive? Stackless pythons ate my hamsters!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.18 16:20:00 - [412] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Some of you is vaguely aware that using any weapon/offensive module on a capital in high sec is an exploit, and that if reported will get a warning to the offender and the capship will be moved in low sec? Some capital yard still exist in high sec, and even sell the ships, but then you can only move them to low sec or leave them in teh same system doing nothing.
Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.18 17:27:00 - [413] Edited by: Falbala on 18/08/2007 17:28:16 You can have the freighter escorted by a second freighter and a ganker team, so, if it gets ganked you gank and loot back. Seriously, you just need to scout gate and see if it is camped.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.08.18 17:45:00 - [414] So now they are to get ganked loose half the load, then have the escorts gank the alt that picks up the load loose another half of the load, is this all getting silly? I stand by my solution because it makes sense, its logical and it does not change the basic game mechanics, if your afk flying you can still get ganked, if you want someone dead you can still do it, and the risk free gank squad tactics become more risky if freighter pilot x is not afk and can tell his corp mates and friends that hes got a flagged target. Passive scanning in empire makes absolutely no sense what so ever, there is no innocent purpose to passive scanning in empire period. If there is one please tell me i would love to hear it. Alts using them during war decs to scan opposition risk free, gankers using them to find targets worth suiciding over risk free. Make it flaggable already and kill two birds with one stone. All you hc players whine on about risk vs reward, and how everything in eve should be weighted by it, yet this situation you turn a blind eye on because freighter pilots are rich or annoying or whatever. Be consistant at lest.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.18 18:29:00 - [415] Edited by: Spurty on 18/08/2007 18:29:40 A description of the 'worst freighter gank squad ever'. Speed of a freighter is so low that every one of those domi's should be cloaked and only reveal their presence as they slam the bad stuff out of the freighter. As for an escort, makes sense to me. Of course, this requires that the second someone attacks, they get a global aggress timer so anyone can gank em with Concords blessing. Thats exactly how it is now though right? --
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.08.18 18:34:00 - [416] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Some of you is vaguely aware that using any weapon/offensive module on a capital in high sec is an exploit, and that if reported will get a warning to the offender and the capship will be moved in low sec? Damage controls are hardly offensive modules. And the freighter don't seem to be a 100% pure cap-ship since it lacks the ability to cynojump. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -TheDagda ([email protected])
CaldariAdam	Posted - 2007.08.18 18:34:00 - [417] Originally by: Nito Musashi So now they are to get ganked loose half the load, then have the escorts gank the alt that picks up the load loose another half of the load, is this all getting silly? I stand by my solution because it makes sense, its logical and it does not change the basic game mechanics, if your afk flying you can still get ganked, if you want someone dead you can still do it, and the risk free gank squad tactics become more risky if freighter pilot x is not afk and can tell his corp mates and friends that hes got a flagged target. Passive scanning in empire makes absolutely no sense what so ever, there is no innocent purpose to passive scanning in empire period. If there is one please tell me i would love to hear it. Alts using them during war decs to scan opposition risk free, gankers using them to find targets worth suiciding over risk free. Make it flaggable already and kill two birds with one stone. All you hc players whine on about risk vs reward, and how everything in eve should be weighted by it, yet this situation you turn a blind eye on because freighter pilots are rich or annoying or whatever. Be consistant at lest. How about scanning to see how other people fit for npcing in obvious npcing ships like ravens? There are several business purposes I can think of as well.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.18 19:55:00 - [418] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/08/2007 19:55:15 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Some of you is vaguely aware that using any weapon/offensive module on a capital in high sec is an exploit, and that if reported will get a warning to the offender and the capship will be moved in low sec? Damage controls are hardly offensive modules. And the freighter don't seem to be a 100% pure cap-ship since it lacks the ability to cynojump. As the "fear" was for freighter to brig capship in high sec to wreack havoc, and that was used as a reason not to give low slots to freighters, I was pointing that a capship can't operate in high sec.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.08.18 20:06:00 - [419] Edited by: Nito Musashi on 18/08/2007 20:10:07 Edited by: Nito Musashi on 18/08/2007 20:08:38 How about scanning to see how other people fit for npcing in obvious npcing ships like ravens? There are several business purposes I can think of as well. Then you should be ganged or in the same corp there no legit purpose outside that to be passive targeting another players ship in empire. Passive targeting/scanning is used mainly by theses scanning alts for either ganking purposes or by alts during empire wars dec sitting outside your home stations with no recourse available at all. One simple change would still allow people to do but risk getting hunted down, or if it is legit purpose for business or fitting advice you can gang.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.08.18 20:09:00 - [420] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/08/2007 19:55:15 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Some of you is vaguely aware that using any weapon/offensive module on a capital in high sec is an exploit, and that if reported will get a warning to the offender and the capship will be moved in low sec? Damage controls are hardly offensive modules. And the freighter don't seem to be a 100% pure cap-ship since it lacks the ability to cynojump. As the "fear" was for freighter to brig capship in high sec to wreack havoc, and that was used as a reason not to give low slots to freighters, I was pointing that a capship can't operate in high sec. Hence: Originally by: Cpt Fina Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders Now, what is the problem? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -TheDagda ([email protected])

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.18 20:11:00 - [421] forum whiner griefing needs to be nerfed, whines are overpowered Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Yagyu Retsudo Yagyu Holdings	Posted - 2007.08.18 20:16:00 - [422] Originally by: Turin Originally by: Rod Blaine Nerf the freighter griefers. No Concrode payout. Find some way to keep trial accounts from attacking them at all. Disposable trial accounts are what truely make this possible. Since you dont get any sec hit to keep you out of empire. /signed No insurance payouts. Then, suddenly, it no longer makes economic sense to pop freighters with as many alts as you can muster. Yes, yes, I know that this is unacceptable to some people. But those people are incapable of critical analysis, or have a vested interest in the current situation continuing. I guess until CCP fixes mineral compression rates the answer is 'who cares anyway, use a frigate to haul ME25 titan modules'. Real good job there, CCP. There is no downside to not paying out insurance for CONCORD kills. Just makes it sting that much more when you stupidly fire the wrong module off in empire wars.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.08.18 23:36:00 - [423] What I do with my freighter alt now: he carries shrinkwrapped 'courier mission' crap all the time and I shrinkwrap my real goods, too. It's rare that I fill the hold up anyways, and that way the ganksquads run a good chance to gank me for a good pile of junk if they take the chance. Enjoy :D
Buggsi	Posted - 2007.08.19 03:01:00 - [424] This game is designed for griefers. Im going back to WOW PvE where it doesn't matter if the bounty system has been broken since Ultima Online. 10 years. Its been 10 years now. I thought this game would be different, but the bounty system is exactly like Ultima Online, it doesn't work.
CaldariAdam	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:28:00 - [425] Originally by: Tharrn What I do with my freighter alt now: he carries shrinkwrapped 'courier mission' crap all the time and I shrinkwrap my real goods, too. It's rare that I fill the hold up anyways, and that way the ganksquads run a good chance to gank me for a good pile of junk if they take the chance. Enjoy :D It was fixed in a recent patch that what you do will not help anymore.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:13:00 - [426] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 19/08/2007 11:15:59 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/08/2007 19:55:15 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Dylatar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Athren Soulsteal So far the only argument aganst low slots is "nooo then some on can bring a cap into high sec..." And? What the prob, so now they can do what with it, protect the miners from the nasty rats? (in high sec). Oh they can use it to gank at the gates.. sure lets build a cap to throw it away at a gate. OH maybe they are going to use it for mining,,, There are tons of other arguments in this thread, but that one is as good as any. The problem with capitals in high sec is that they're not supposed to be there. Hence, they can't jump there. If a freighter was to be given low slots it could take a cap into a place where it isn't supposed to be, thus circumventing an intended game mechanic. Not an argument. Stated often in this thread but simply corrected by just increasing size of repackaged capital ships. And on the other hand: expanders reduce hull hp, which again makes a freigher more vulnerable and slower as it already is. Nobody who wants to prevent that would do this. And in my own opinion not necessary. Most time I haven't loaded my freighter full up to the rooftop. That makes cargo expanders the very last thing I would fit to a freighter. Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders IF they think that's a good idea. Make a new Freighter-DCU with 70-80% resist on structure for the pilots who are willing to trade some cargocapacity for a tank. Some of you is vaguely aware that using any weapon/offensive module on a capital in high sec is an exploit, and that if reported will get a warning to the offender and the capship will be moved in low sec? Damage controls are hardly offensive modules. And the freighter don't seem to be a 100% pure cap-ship since it lacks the ability to cynojump. As the "fear" was for freighter to bring capship in high sec to wreack havoc, and that was used as a reason not to give low slots to freighters, I was pointing that a capship can't operate in high sec. Hence: Originally by: Cpt Fina Decrease the cargosize of freighters and give them enough lowslots to fully compensate that loss with cargoexpanders Now, what is the problem? Again: I am in favour of adding slots to freighters, and there is no need to nerf any cargo capacity as capital ships can't be used in high sec. If the freighter pilot prefer to increase cargo capacity and weaken his defence (reducing his hull HP) it is his choice. A sensible person will instead mount a damage control unit.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:39:00 - [427] Originally by: CaldariAdam Originally by: Tharrn What I do with my freighter alt now: he carries shrinkwrapped 'courier mission' crap all the time and I shrinkwrap my real goods, too. It's rare that I fill the hold up anyways, and that way the ganksquads run a good chance to gank me for a good pile of junk if they take the chance. Enjoy :D It was fixed in a recent patch that what you do will not help anymore. They can look into the shrinkwrap now?
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:39:00 - [428] Originally by: CaldariAdam Originally by: Tharrn What I do with my freighter alt now: he carries shrinkwrapped 'courier mission' crap all the time and I shrinkwrap my real goods, too. It's rare that I fill the hold up anyways, and that way the ganksquads run a good chance to gank me for a good pile of junk if they take the chance. Enjoy :D It was fixed in a recent patch that what you do will not help anymore. They can look into the shrinkwrap now?
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.19 14:32:00 - [429] Originally by: galadran Griefing Read and learn... While I do in this case to the most part agree with wikipedias definition it is worth mentioning that as wikipedia is written by and can be edited by anyone it is far from somthing you should treat as gospel. With a good standing at wikipedia, wich is not all that hard to get an unsavory person could easilly make subtle changes to the text so that rather than stating what people as a rule accept as the truth the text actually claims the exact oposite. As far as EvE goes suicide killing has however been called griefing from the first day I played, some do not agree with that. My personal opinion is that its not so much the action that separates griefing from non griefing, its the motive behind it... and that is very hard to gauge.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:53:00 - [430] CONCORD will now respond to aggressing drones during criminal acts by deactivating a pilot's capability to control them. tell me who suicided without using drones to finish the job? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem

SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:07:00 - [431] Originally by: CaldariAdam Originally by: Tharrn What I do with my freighter alt now: he carries shrinkwrapped 'courier mission' crap all the time and I shrinkwrap my real goods, too. It's rare that I fill the hold up anyways, and that way the ganksquads run a good chance to gank me for a good pile of junk if they take the chance. Enjoy :D It was fixed in a recent patch that what you do will not help anymore. CONCORD have been upgrading again. Their weapons and support abilities now have unimaginable range. Apparently they have also heard about these Microwarp Drive things and installed them. ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Theo Samaritan Gallente Pheonix Reborn	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:12:00 - [432] SiJara its bad enough you spam crap on the forums, but dont necro old threads please ______________________________
NocturnalDeath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:14:00 - [433] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. Well Said Whiner: "OMG CCP will lose 90% of playerbase with this nerf!" Me: "Thank God, less lag for me then!" Whiner: "But prices of ships will double!" Me: "Sweet, ships are too cheap anyways!"
SnakeByte86	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:22:00 - [434] The whole suciding thing is just so stupid. Blame CCP though. Now i bought a freighter a few years back, so i would be able to afk travel empire very safely. Now its very risking to travel at all. Its common for me to have 20billion or more in my freighter. Easily worth the time and effort of a group of gankers. I've had friends come with me as a show of force, and thats worked so far, but this takes for ever, wastes alot of peoples game time, and once again CCP. This hurts the small corps. The larger corps and field people all the time to defend. My corp doesnt always have a ton of people online, or in empire at the same time. For the love of fat people named Marty. Help the small corps out.


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