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Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:20:00 - [1] Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Velsharoon Gallente Endgame.	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:30:00 - [2] Escorts them
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:32:00 - [3] Edited by: ToxicFire on 29/04/2007 12:29:18 Personally I'd settle for a Sheild/Armour HP afforded to capital ships even though a freighter doesn't require it, it still falls into the class of pseudo capital ship. Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them Even in high sec.... yuh right, personally I see suicide ganking as an exploit. Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
Akoudoulos Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:37:00 - [4] Originally by: Velsharoon Escorts them and how this can work? 20-30 bs can almost instapop a freighter :) no matter how many escort pilots you have its is impossible to defend the freighter lag+concord does the job
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:44:00 - [5] id gladly do with 8 lows there :p but it'll quickly give insane values ------
Aakron Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:44:00 - [6] Freighters should have fittings for risk/reward allow them to risk fitting nanos etc for faster travel but risk forgoing a damage control/bulkhead that would have saved them from a gank ---
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.04.29 12:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. How is it "griefing" if a ship gets attacked for loot? That sounds more like "playing EVE".
galadran Caldari The Power of 3	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:00:00 - [8] Griefing Read and learn...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 29/04/2007 13:01:52 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, CCP patched up freighters and they dropped loot. Because of the new patch, freighters are now targets of high-sec griefing. CCP, why don't you give us medium and low slots in our freighters please? Freighters drop loot so they must be able to fit some modules to prevent high-sec griefings. How is it "griefing" if a ship gets attacked for loot? That sounds more like "playing EVE". One group kills for loot because they think there is loot. One group kills for fun because they can. One group kills because the hate the freighter pilot. Two groups are griefers and one group is not. Majority wins. Ganking freighters in high-sec is griefing. Freighters need medium and low slots badly. Give the little lamb a chance until Concord arrives to help it. When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. Griefers pew pew. Freighter pilots have to enjoy receiving pew pew. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:23:00 - [10] It's not econmic viable to provide escort for most freighters, if my freight move minerals or T1 items the profit is a few per cent of the cargo so i can make 20-40m in a trip that take a couple of hours, but i stand to lose a few billions (ship + cost of items), so if i need escort of 3-4 BS (and i need way more) then the ISK earned devided by the pilots time make no sense from the BS pilot point of view, he can make way more running missions or Ratting. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:26:00 - [11] The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:33:00 - [12] I was thinking of working towards the freighter because of how great it was to see the occasional freighter in Empire a year ago. Now with Privateers and all of the gankers, I won't even attempt to train any more for one. A billion isk investment and you can't rely on Concord to show up in time equals a huge isk sink. I don't know if i would really call it griefing, more like opportunist.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:34:00 - [13] Well, technically they can. Due to concords jamming freighter killsquads have to rely heavily on drones. One single "escort" BS with several large smartbombs could clear the drones pretty fast. A single ECM burst could work as well - afaik if you use those drones effected by it do not autoattack again, but have to be given the attack command to do this. But I am never tested that myself. Downside there is that the escort most likely will attack (or even podkill) some innocent bystanders accidently, so it will pobably get concorded as well. Still 1 ship vs 20 ships.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills for loot because they think there is loot. Not griefing as you said yourself. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills for fun because they can. Let's say for a moment that someone would go through the trouble of suicide ganking a freighter just for kicks, it's still not griefing. It's PvP. The stuff the freighter is carrying could be used to shoot the gankers in the future, or it could fuel the economy of their enemy. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire One group kills because the hate the freighter pilot. This isn't griefing either. This is one group getting revenge on someone by playing the game. I would say this is EvE in it's purest form: consequences for previous actions. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Ganking freighters in high-sec is griefing. No. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Freighters need medium and low slots badly. Give the little lamb a chance until Concord arrives to help it. The insane amount of hitpoints it has is quite enough. If someone spends the time and resources required to suicide your freighter, they damn well ought to be able to. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire When you gank a freighter, the pilot stands a chance to lose billions. Gankers only lose less than 100M. An insured freighter won't cost you billions. If you put billions worth of stuff in it your just plain dumb. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Griefers pew pew. Freighter pilots have to enjoy receiving pew pew. Yes. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:39:00 - [15] I remember when using the G word would get you flamed off the forums, like the noob you were. Good times...
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Aramendel Well, technically they can. Due to concords jamming freighter killsquads have to rely heavily on drones. One single "escort" BS with several large smartbombs could clear the drones pretty fast. A single ECM burst could work as well - afaik if you use those drones effected by it do not autoattack again, but have to be given the attack command to do this. But I am never tested that myself. Downside there is that the escort most likely will attack (or even podkill) some innocent bystanders accidently, so it will pobably get concorded as well. Still 1 ship vs 20 ships. ^^
Arcadia1701 Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:53:00 - [17] Give frighters an HP boost. 50K base armor, 250K base structure. Wouldnt that solve suicide ganking? Whatever vaule is needed to let the freighter last long enough for concord to take everything out. My sig> Post with your main or STFU
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:19:00 - [18] There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years: Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD. It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:32:00 - [19] Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec?
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:37:00 - [20] Edited by: Kahor on 29/04/2007 14:34:32 You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. Also the two case of 'griefers' you showed will be soon broke and back to npcing in 0.0 because of the sec status loss. Also there is a difference between griefing and retaliation, if they hate the player, he must have ***ed them off somehow. Edit : All ships drop loots, there needs no counter to that, your counter to having no slots to fit module is having 900k cargo space. ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind. snip*, do not evade the word filter with your sig. Email [email protected] for more information. -HornFrog

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Kahor You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. You can also use that same scout to web yourself and warp faster. Be sure to point out that the scout in question could be a friend or a corp mate, and doesn't have to be an alt, because otherwise the lazy people in this thread will emmediately shout out "meta" in order to bury such an obvious counter. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Pan Crastus There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years: Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD. It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you. Agreed. If people want to suicide gank in hi sec then fine but the economics should be that the gank always costs more than the ship getting ganked. Currently I believe a freighter can be suicide ganked for around 400 million in losses to the attackers. That is versus a 1+ billion ISK ship. When people gripe about Motherships being near unkillable the PvPers usual retort is that a 25 billion ISK ship should be super hard to kill. Fair enough and while 25 billion is a lot more than 1 billion the same idea should apply. So, either stop insurance payouts for deaths by CONCORD or increase the hitpoints of a freighter such that in order to instakill them costs the attackers more than the value of their target (this should be true for any suicide gank be it a shuttle on up). If the freighter is carrying enough of value in its cargo a suicide gank might still be worthwhile but the bar should be raised on whether or not it is worth it. Someone earlier mentioned it was somehow silly to carry cargo worth over a billion. Well, it's a freaking freighter...it is supposed to carry HUGE amounts of cargo and getting a cargo worth over 1 billion ISK is trvially easy. To keep your cargo value below 1 billion is to essentially nerf the usefulness of the freighter. One of the protections freighters had till recently was not only did you need a large attacking force to kill one you needed an army of haulers to carry the loot away. Now freighters can magically loot freighter wrecks (but nothing else ) so again the bar is lowered. I was actually hoping for a story of a freighter gank in Jita (before freighters could loot) and hear of the dogpile of people going after the freighter wreck.
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Kahor Edited by: Kahor on 29/04/2007 14:37:01 You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool. You can also use that same scout to web yourself and warp faster. Both are easily coped with by the attackers. 20 Domis need not be on the gate advertising themselves. They can be a few hundred kilometers off an off grid. Leave a few players in shuttles or fast frigs by the gate. Bump freighter (stupidly easy on a freighter) forever till attacking force warps in on you. As for the web trick the freighter still needs to be aligned for that to work and they align painfully slowly. With the above tactic it is a simple matter to hold the freighter right where it is. I suppose we could go back to BMing empire for fast warpout points from every gate but even then you could be bumped out of alignment before your webber gets to you (luck of the draw I guess on whether the webber or bumper is closer to you when the freighter decloaks).
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h If people want to suicide gank in hi sec then fine but the economics should be that the gank always costs more than the ship getting ganked. Currently I believe a freighter can be suicide ganked for around 400 million in losses to the attackers. That is versus a 1+ billion ISK ship. Until recently noone thought anyone would ever suicide a freighter as the cost would be too high. Now we have found out that the rewards are potentially exponential as people fly around with insane sums in their cargo. The solution to the problem is already in the freighter pilot's hands. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h When people gripe about Motherships being near unkillable the PvPers usual retort is that a 25 billion ISK ship should be super hard to kill. Fair enough and while 25 billion is a lot more than 1 billion the same idea should apply. The "PvPers"? I would consider myself a "PvPer" and I hate the fact that motherships are nigh unkillable. Still, it's probably down to my own inadequacies, as several moms have, in fact, been killed. Now, the titan is another story. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h So, either stop insurance payouts for deaths by CONCORD or increase the hitpoints of a freighter such that in order to instakill them costs the attackers more than the value of their target (this should be true for any suicide gank be it a shuttle on up). "Remove insurance" has been shouted for ages, and the couter arguments never seem to disuade the shouters. Things like "accidental death by concord during smartbomb activation in mission", and "overview in mess when shooting WTs in Empire leading to concord wtfbbqing you" seems to not be enough for the "my freighter should be safe in high-sec" crowd. Increasing HPs? You mean they don't have enough? It's simple math really. Say you need 30 domis to take down a freighter in high sec. Those 30 domis with t1 gear would go for, lets say, 40 mil each after insurance. That means it costs 30 x 40 = 1.2 billion to take down a freighter (NOTE: These are not actual figures, but an example). That would mean that you, the freighter pilot, have a cap of around 2 bil which you can put in your freighter and not risk suicide ganking for profit. About half the loot gets destroyed after all. Or, you can just use a scout. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h One of the protections freighters had till recently was not only did you need a large attacking force to kill one you needed an army of haulers to carry the loot away. Now freighters can magically loot freighter wrecks (but nothing else ) so again the bar is lowered. I was actually hoping for a story of a freighter gank in Jita (before freighters could loot) and hear of the dogpile of people going after the freighter wreck. Before freighters didn't drop any loot at all, so I guess that is a trade-off for letting freighters pick up loot now. The bar isn't lowered, as it is only just recently that freighter ganking became potentially profitable. The answer is simple. Learn to play. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:31:00 - [26] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 15:28:03 Originally by: Ki An Until recently noone thought anyone would ever suicide a freighter as the cost would be too high. Now we have found out that the rewards are potentially exponential as people fly around with insane sums in their cargo. The solution to the problem is already in the freighter pilot's hands. The answer is do not use the freighter to do what it is meant to do? Quote: The "PvPers"? I would consider myself a "PvPer" and I hate the fact that motherships are nigh unkillable. Still, it's probably down to my own inadequacies, as several moms have, in fact, been killed. Now, the titan is another story. Titans were being dropped before the first Mom ever bit the dust. Not sure on the current count but it is close. Not many Moms or Titans have gone down. Both are stupidly hard to kill (I agree they should be very hard to kill but when the only reliable means of getting one is to resort to metagaming that is messed up). Quote: "Remove insurance" has been shouted for ages, and the couter arguments never seem to disuade the shouters. Things like "accidental death by concord during smartbomb activation in mission", and "overview in mess when shooting WTs in Empire leading to concord wtfbbqing you" seems to not be enough for the "my freighter should be safe in high-sec" crowd. "Safe" in hi sec is a relative term. I am aware and agree that no place is 100% safe. But they certainly should be safer. Smartbombs in Empire have never been a good idea since, well, forever. You are asking for it if you fit and use them there and can hardly complain when CONCORD nabs you. Overview is a mess? Fix your overview. The answer lies in the attackers hands. Not to mention you should get a warning before attacking an innocent bystander. If you turned that off its your fault. Sure the occasional person will goof and get CONCORDED. But the rules are clear, mechanics exist to help prevent that (warnings you are about to shoot someone you shouldn't) so I find it difficult to see how this is a useful argument. Fact is from any reasonable perspective we all know that collecting insurance after committing a crime is just retarded. If you use your car in a bank robbery and the police smash your car chasing you do you really think your insurance company will payout on that car? (I can guarantee you the answer is no) Quote: Increasing HPs? You mean they don't have enough? It's simple math really. Say you need 30 domis to take down a freighter in high sec. Those 30 domis with t1 gear would go for, lets say, 40 mil each after insurance. That means it costs 30 x 40 = 1.2 billion to take down a freighter (NOTE: These are not actual figures, but an example). That would mean that you, the freighter pilot, have a cap of around 2 bil which you can put in your freighter and not risk suicide ganking for profit. About half the loot gets destroyed after all. Or, you can just use a scout. Actual current math has the number required at around 20-25 Domis and after insurance payout the cost is 300-500 million ISK for the attackers (obviously some variability in there). Hence the current magic number is 1 billion in loot in the freighter which I pointed out is trivially easy to do in a freighter. Not talking about moving 100 billion+ ISK worth of T2 bpos or 900,000 m3 of mega. This is just doing what the freighter is meant to do with rather mundane cargo. And I already pointed out the scout is easily sidestepped by gankers with half a brain. Quote: The answer is simple. Learn to play. It is not a question of learning to play. It is a question of either giving appropriate tools to properly guard a freighter versus a suicide gank or, barring that, adjusting the profit calculation a bit to make suicide gankers be more choosey on who they go after. If a freighter pilot wants to slow boat 900,000 m3 of megacyte AFK through Empire well...they have it coming.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) Damn, beat me to it...
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:41:00 - [28] You should read the description of greifing before you start talking such tripe. Whatever you lost, im glad you lost it and hope you loose more.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:45:00 - [29] Freighters have no low and medium slots by design after the loot patch is a design malfunction. You can argue and spin to all inhabitants who are blind in one eye and can't see in the other that black is white. There is a problem with freighters and it is they have no defensive slots. Full stop. Anyone with a brain size of a nucleus could see the freighter problem. Don't tell me go get a scout and check whether there is a gate gank next door because there is no way for a freighter to defensively tank a gank long enough for Concord or MWD/warp away to a station. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Bazman Caldari Werda Fookarwii	Posted - 2007.04.29 15:52:00 - [30] Personally, i think they should get some medium slots, giving them low's will just lead to stuff like nanofreighters (lol stupid) With meds they can fit some shield tank mods, gives a little defense against suicide ganks but still makes them totally vunerable elsewhere -----



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