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Freighter griefing problem?

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Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:12:00 - [181] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:15:00 - [182] Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Siege What, may I ask, could a couple of slots on a ship that has the targetting speed of a turnip accomplish? If it's going down so fast that concord can't help you, what could you possibly do in a single ship to protect yourself? The slots would help to tank griefers long enough for Concord to kill them. I seriously doubt you could organize a gang of 40 griefers to kill one freighter. How much ISK are you willing to lose on that bet? I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:36:00 - [183] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. Because MS/Titan/Carrier are not industrial ships, the Frieghter is. You trying to compare a Titan to a Frieghter is like trying to compare a sniper BS to an interceptor. And even if you compare the cargo space of the freighter to other capships, guess what? Freighter still trumps them, can go into highsec, and is dozens of times cheaper than a MS or Titan. Also, MS and Titan are super capitals. Of all ships that do not have a ship array (ms/ttan/carrier), the Revelation is the most cargo-capable ship, with around 83,000 m3 if you have 8 t2 expanders, and 3(if they fit) t2 cargo rigs. That is still > 10% of a freighter's possible cargo space. Why don't we do some industrial comparisons? Freighter vs t2 expanded/rigged t1/2t2 indies. You'll find around a 20x greater cargospace in the frieghter. Do Dreads have 20x the firepower of a BS or CBC? Hell no, outside of seigemode they have less DPS (excluding the moros with its broken drone bonuses). Do they have 20x the tanking? They can in siegemode with the proper setup, if you exclude anything better than T2 for the BS, and if you exclude rigs for the BS, because a hyp with armor rigs and only T2, can be a sick little puppy.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:39:00 - [184] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Namingway Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2007 20:27:37 Originally by: Ki An So, you're basically saying, anyone who disagrees with you is deluding himself? Good argument there. And what kind of argument do you have? Freighters that are the kings of haulers have no slots at all are not broken? I am glad I am seeing things. Show me any other ship, excluding titan/ms/carrier, that can hold even 10% of what a freighter can, using every slot and rig it has. Jenny, you honestly have no clue what you're talking about. How can you compare freighter with any other ship excluding titan/ms/carrier? Freighter is an industrial cap ship. If you want to compare freighter with any other ship, you might as well compare titan with an interceptor. They simply need to fix the issue of CONCORD paying insurance to criminals, which has been suggested for a long time, probably before you bought that char.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:53:00 - [185] See sig - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:07:00 - [186] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/04/2007 23:03:39 Originally by: Wyehr I'm sick of the 12 second thing. It took at least 33 seconds to pop the freighter in Outbreak's Karma video. Need to read the thread more closely. On page 4, post #104 I already admitted I got that wrong and corrected myself to the 33 seconds it took.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:56:00 - [187] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. Are you stupid or something? This was already resolved a few pages back. Bring 5 BS with 8 large remote reps and you completely negate the DPS from 20 domis.
Miz Cenuij OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:18:00 - [188] LOL @ this thread. Leave frieghters as they are and keep insurance. STOP your whing you empire carebears scum, i hope you all get WTF owned. Whoever has the co-ordination to plan these attacks PWNS and should be proud of themselves. Fairplay lads, gut those fat lazy empire pigs like the inbred scum they are. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:23:00 - [189] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The playerbase who still do not believe that freighters should have some defensive slots, let me tell you a fairy tale. It's called the "Ganker's new ship". A long time ago, two Devs met an eVe ganker and asked him what he wanted. The ganker said, he wanted a new ship. The Devs told the ganker, they would made him a new 5000 m3 ship and it would be the best combat ship ever. But the ganker would have to work with the Devs at every development stage of the new ship. Every time the ganker tried out the new ship, he couldn't F1, F2, F3, ... and kill his target. He went back to the Devs and complained that his ship couldn't pew pew. The Devs told him, that was impossible and when he did F1, F2, F3, ... his target instantaneously obliterated. What he saw was just lag because the ship was no longer there. The ganker said, "Crikey!" At the second testing, the ganker did the same thing and the two Devs told him, the target got popped. It went on until the new ship was released to the ganker. The ganker was so happy and went to grief a hauler. When he tried to F1, F2, F3, ... he found himself in a new clone because the hauler pewed pewed on him. The moral of the story is there is a problem with freighters and people who do not acknowledge the problem is bluffing themselves. Freighters need defensive slots. Risk vs Reward You're risking taking billions worth of goods to a destination. Your reward is actually gettin them there. Freighters are NOT meant to be immune to ever thing out there. If you're willing to fly it without any type of escort or scout then you should be ready to loose it all. --
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:33:00 - [190] There is no logical reason for Industrials to have as few mids or low slots as they do. There is always room, and no weapons to take up powergrid or CPU. They should be the hardest nuts to *****, and some should be able to run goods in and out of low sec and stay in one piece. Cause you know Amamake has the best prices for Frozen Food but nobody buys it there cause no amount of frozen food is worth the risk of a ship.

Exortius Amarrus The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:39:00 - [191] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Originally by: Namingway Jenny, didn't you get your vaga BPO by suicide ganking someone in highsec? I think that Jenny is long gone...god knows who's at her place behind the comp nowdays :) I was thinking the same thing. ------------------------
Ragornok Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:46:00 - [192] Originally by: Mighty Dread There is no logical reason for Industrials to have as few mids or low slots as they do. But we are talking about Freighters, not Industrials. Different beasts.
w0rmy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:03:00 - [193] Originally by: Plutoinum Originally by: w0rmy You can run 4 remote armour reps non stop in a scimitar or Oneiros Dont fly amarr so dont know bout that one. Remote armor reps on a scimitar sounds weird. Mine has lower cap consumption with shield transporters ( ... and a tracking link efficiency bonus, if I remember it right.) It's able to run 3 large shield transporter and one medium non-stop. Ahhh yeah, got mixed up. Meant shield transfers. Either way, logistic ships dont have a cap problem. Either wy, logistic ships dont have a cap problem :) Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
w0rmy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:06:00 - [194] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I am not asking for a bet. I am asking that CCP makes it a deterrent in griefing freighter pilots in high secs. EVE is a multiplayer game. That is your deterent. If youre flying with a few billion in cargo, get your mates in logistic ships to escort you. Or will that effect your ability to play even on easy mode? Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:26:00 - [195] Edited by: SiJira on 01/05/2007 03:22:57 Originally by: Slash Harnet Bumping is the largest exploit that isn't an exploit IMO. Fixing that would solve a ton of problems, including the freighter issue. SO TRUE Originally by: Namingway Actually it'd be more like firing a baseball out of a cannon into a linebacker. Sure that linebacker's big, but that baseball's moving fast and he's going to get move by the impact. Also, if they fix physics, then the first thing I'm doing, is getting this char into a Caldari BS, loading it up with mods and a MWD, and ramming my main's pod a few dozen times. Then he'll have a nice Safespot a few million AU away. im pretty sure a baseball compared to a linebackker has a much better ratio than a lil frigate vs a mostly filled freighter
Fugitive Blue	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:44:00 - [196] Speaking from experience. My freighter was attacked near Jita by 19 ships. The gank was unsuccessful but it still cost me isk to repair it's structure. The main issue here is risk/reward. A well organized gank squads risks little for so much potential gain. Even if they make no gain it still costs the freighter pilot isk with the potential to lose multiple billions for no real cost to the gankers. I am a hard-core PVP pilot and could easily bring our corp into empire and kill multiple freighters per hour if we so chose to. There is NO risk to the attackers and no real defense. (Forget scouting, you could just put cloakers on the domis since you don't really use the high slots or use a whole lot of other basic PVP tactics) The answer is to balance the risk and the reward. My two suggestions are simple and they have already been mentioned many times: 1 Give the freighter at least one low slot to fit a Damage mod or a hull repairer 2 Raise the cost of ganking by refusing to pay insurance (this is just a good business decision) I know our corp would not go into empire to gank defenseless freighters but if we wanted to get some quick isk this would be an easy route. The main issue here is RISK/REWARD
Lygos Amarr Insane Asylum	Posted - 2007.05.01 06:38:00 - [197] Hmmmm.. Ok, how about a logistics ship gang bonus that prevents cargo scanning. The catch is that it only affects gang members that are in the same corp, and not in npc corps. Or just don't worry about it. --- Articio > Well, at least I don't have to grind back security status.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:28:00 - [198] Originally by: Fugitive Blue The main issue here is RISK/REWARD Wait a minute. You just described a suicide gank that went wrong, costing the agressors hundreds of millions for no gain, and you still complain about risk vs reward? Once again: The agressors lost hundreds of millions. You had to repair your ship (or not, it's up to you really). They lost, you won. Seems here we have proof positive that there is risk to the agressors. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:37:00 - [199] Can people stop overusing the word griefing, it's really annoying. If you get killed in a pvp game, it's called getting killed, not griefing. Griefing is when someone hassles and chases you and tries to disrupt only you, avoiding all other target's just to make you and only you unhappy, for an extended period of time, not one death, but non stop And if the freighter is carrying fat lootz, why not give it an escort of ship's that can remote rep? Or is that too sensible and obvious.... BoB vs the coalition of family value's
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:55:00 - [200] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 01/05/2007 07:54:05 Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 30/04/2007 20:49:18 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire At least my toon is much older than yous so I know best. The only way I am willing to accept that Freighters are not broken is when a Dev respond to this thread and say Freighters are not broken by design and they should never have any slot at all! Lol... I think your toon is older than you, tbh /Ki lol nice one :) Jenny epeeing with your char's age and your experience coming with it is quite rediculous tbh. But I gotta say, your arguments provide quite an amusement.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:04:00 - [201] Ok, I've been musing over this issue and thought I'd post a small essay on it, mostly in the form of a discussion. Problem Freighters are now fat targets in high security space. This begs the question, would this still be seen as a problem if it was only possible in low security space? I'd say 'no', because low security space is supposed to be dangerous, right? Now then, let's discuss the differences between the same occurance in two areas of space separated with security status: Game mechanics of the gank: Low sec vs High sec In low security space, a freighter encountering 30 domis at a gate is in serious trouble. What can he do to protect himself? - Use a scout. Not 100%, but still a good security measure. - Bring an escort. Well, the problem is that as soon as the enemy domis are through with the freighter, they'll start beating on the escort, so you're gonna need about 30 escorts yourself. Then what are the options in high security? - Use a scout. Not 100%, but still a good security measure. - Bring an escort. This escort is not for engaging the enemy, but to repair their ward. Possibly, one or two could be used to remove drones from the freighter at the cost of their ship and a chunk of sec status. If the enemy manage to bring down the freighter, the escort now serves as guards for the wreck, as anyone who takes anything from the wreckage will immeditately be flagged to the escort (providing they are in the same corp as the freighter pilot). As an extra bonus, the escort is untouchable to the aggressors if they don't want to bring aditional ships to suicide them as well. Concluding this line of reasoning, high security seem to offer better options regarding freighter security than low security. Then what is the real problem? It seems to me that the problem is a falsely percieved sense of security when being in high sec space. It seems no-one expects anything bad to be able to happen there. It is time to re-evaluate that notion, because high security space is as dangerous as low security space. The difference is that it takes more co-ordination from the agressor to reach his goal in high security. With the recent changes of freighters, the motivation for that has arrived. Then what can be done to counter this? Well, this thread discusses a number of options, none of them 100% guaranteed of success. Use a scout. Use remote repping BS's as escorts. Bring a couple of smart-bombing BS's to remove drones. Bring a couple of combat BS's to guard the wreck. The bottom line is, you can no longer expect to be safe while piloting your freighter alone, even in high security space. You have to organize a thourough defence when transporting valuable things, and it is much easier to do this in a player corp than in an NPC corp. Freighters are no longer invulnerable cash-cows. They are now prime targets, and you will have to adapt and co-operate in order to protect your investment. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:07:00 - [202] Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:12:00 - [203] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? wth its already been discussed --it wouldnt do any good hence waste of time coding -cargo expanders? -variation in base cargo space ? --it was designed to be this way? --exploits of nanos etc? --you will still get ganked it just make take 2-3 more people to kill you seriously dont buy someones character and then pretend you know anything about the game
Jessica Lorelei Minmatar Vitae Mecha	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:27:00 - [204] Edited by: Jessica Lorelei on 01/05/2007 08:27:06 Originally by: Miz Cenuij LOL @ this thread. Leave frieghters as they are and keep insurance. STOP your whing you empire carebears scum, i hope you all get WTF owned. Whoever has the co-ordination to plan these attacks PWNS and should be proud of themselves. Fairplay lads, gut those fat lazy empire pigs like the inbred scum they are. No more inbred than giving all your loot to Ginger though eh? ;P Industrialists and traders (I wont get into the carebear/not carebear debate here) are quite industrious, they make lots of isk through non violent means, and this makes them lazy? They cant be that lazy or you wouldnt want the stuff they earn so badly so you dont have to earn it yourself For the record, i think ganking freighters is a good way to make isk, ruin rivals and so on, i dont see it as griefing, unless its done within the confines of the 'greifing' definition. I do agree something needs to be done about the defenslessness of frieghters, i think a good point was raised that being killed by concord should void your insurance, its a sensible idea, as is using logistics on the freighter,scouts etc. Low slots are a bad idea, for the reasons already stated, hi-slots hmm not really usefull, unless you want a salvaging, tractor beaming freighter to scoop up a dead freighter carcass and its contents, the mid slots however, could concievably have some kind of shield tank though not necessary, i dont think that jammers etc. would be such a good idea, frieghters are slow enough without getting stuck at gates for aggression. edit Thought of something else to post. -NEVER CONFUSE OPINNION WITH FACT-
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:46:00 - [205] "- Bring an escort. Well, the problem is that as soon as the enemy domis are through with the freighter, they'll start beating on the escort, so you're gonna need about 30 escorts yourself." Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 08:56:00 - [206] Originally by: Malcanis Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter? Please read the post again, and more thouroughly this time. I was arguing about the situation should it occur in low sec in the part you quoted. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:08:00 - [207] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Okay, what harm would it do to you all if freighters have some defensive slots like 0/3/3 for hi/med/low? because it would boost a ship already powerful to shrug off 19 battleships, something no ship less than a mothership can do. Invulnerable freighters would be a terrible thing for the game. Tell me, do you actually have evidence at all of Freighters being griefed? (And by "griefed" I mean attacked & destroyed just for fun, not "attacked"; remember that non-consensual combat is explicitly a part of the game by intentional design)
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:16:00 - [208] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Malcanis Reeeeaaallly? Surely every one of those Domis that attacks an escort will be swiftly concorded? And I suspect it might take more than one Domi to kill another before Concord pops them... Say 2-3? So if you have 5 escorts, you're going to need a gang of 40-45 suicide Domis to take out one escorted freighter. Have you any idea how much effort and resources that would require to bring off? Are you seriously contending that such a huge & well organised fleet should be unable to take out a freighter? Please read the post again, and more thouroughly this time. I was arguing about the situation should it occur in low sec in the part you quoted. /Ki Oops, you're right. So.... large slow cargo ships are vulnerable in lo-sec when weakly escorted? Man, I hope no pirates find out about this...
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:22:00 - [209] Originally by: Malcanis So.... large slow cargo ships are vulnerable in lo-sec when weakly escorted? Man, I hope no pirates find out about this... Hehe, yeah. Serves as a good comparison in the point I was trying to make though. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
hairy minky	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:27:00 - [210] I've got a rather nice target I've been waiting to settle a score with :) I'm sorting out a merc corp to suicide a freighter, I'll be paying for all their losses. and the loot, lets just say the target regularly has over 5 bill in his cargo This is going to be a common theme soon I should guess, but for now while it's in the game mechanics I shall be taking advatage of this.



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