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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Marquis Dean Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:51:00 - [181] Waaaait a minute... CCP don't like ppl buying selling isk for cash... Ppl make isk by selling GTCs... This means you have to give CCP your isk instead of a third party... So CCP will have more isk than anyone (except perhaps Red Alliance)... ZOMG that's it! CCP are trying to corner the market in isk eBaying and make all the cash themselves! --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:51:00 - [182] Psyc... unless the GTC prices for isk increases drasticlly... at current rates.. ANY 5 mill SP char can easily make that amount of isk for a 90 days card in 2 or maybe 3 weekends.... and the system ALSO have to change so that the GTC is non-transferable for it to work. since someone out there will undercut CCP if CCP set the Isk for timecode thing too high. if its too low, everybody will be able to pay in isk... hence the problem. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:56:00 - [183] Originally by: pyschosis Edited by: pyschosis on 05/05/2007 02:42:38 Edited by: pyschosis on 05/05/2007 02:42:10 Originally by: James Duar Edited by: James Duar on 05/05/2007 02:21:37 Originally by: pyschosis Buying 'Game Time" with isk is a good thing for the player base. It allows those with more RL time than money to continue to play, while removing some of the 'surplus' isk. The isk they use for GT cannot be used to buy ships/mods/implants so they are at disadvantage vs 'paid subscriptions' as they have an "Eve Rent" bill to pay every month, and while it seems it would hurt CCP financially some, it is the correct route to go to support long term play. It means the paying playerbase is paying for the hardcore "12 hours a day, computer in my bathroom" playerbase. It's god damn social support structures in internet spaceships. ISK doesn't buy servers, money does - money comes from paying customers. Gametime for ISK from CCP means that paying customers are being made to pay for others. CCP determines their profit margins not you. If you think they are going to create a system that means more of their income is isk than real currency you are simple ignorant. As long as the price is right those 'hard cores' will spend just as much time IN GAME earning money TO PLAY THE GAME as those who are actually working to pay for their subscription. (1 hour of my labor in RL can pay for 4 accounts for a month. How many hours will you grind for your monthly fee in isk? more than 1 I'm sure) the difference is that the 'paid' players can skip out on Eve for a month (or a year) and not lose anything, can come back right where they were whenever they want with no "Eve job" to do to play. If the 'play to play' types stop playing (stop grinding) they lose their entire account access. the number of people who actually desire "yet another rent bill to occupy their gaming time" will be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the number of people who can simply plop down 150.00 and be golden for a year. once the majority of the 'play to play' crowd passes adolescence they wont have the leisure to keep grinding for their play time and will either quit (unlikely if they've invested that much time already) or realize the subscription fee is nothing for anyone with a 'real job' You don't seem to get it. CCP apparently can't buy server hardware fast enough as it is. Somehow, by earning less money because they are letting people play the game for what is effectively free, you are implying this does not hurt my net game experience or directly equal me paying for other people to play. It does. Because CCP have less money, which means they can buy less new hardware and hire fewer employees. Explain to me how this doesn't effect my game experience (thus reducing my utility) or result in a straight price hike in subscription fees (accomplishing the same). Hell, explain to me where giving your product away makes the remotest amount of business sense. Your argument is akin to saying that it would be fine if only a few people skimmed money from the till since not many people will do it.
Vashi Dokumentu The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:57:00 - [184] so how much would 90 days time code for isk ?? 2-5b ??
Pax Uranus Sofa.Kingdom	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:59:00 - [185] Originally by: Briana Flametop T2 BPO = significant ISK generator = playing EVE for free forever, probably for multiple characters. Not that difficult a concept, really. Even with the T2 market dive, I think that just one of my BPOs can fund (at current exchange rates) about a dozen accounts infinitely (pre-dive, easily double that). So yeah, BPOs should probably go poof.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:28:00 - [186] Originally by: Mox Trident Quote: In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK This is the part that some people have missed. The way I read it is that you will no longer be able to buy GTC's from third parties like shatteredcrystal.com or ebay. From now on you'll buy your GTC directly from CCP through account management. This is how I think it will work: Player A will purchase a GTC for RL cash from CCP. Player A will be given an option to either use the GTC himself or sell it to player B for ISK. When player B buys a GTC from a seller, the GTC is automatically added to his subscription time. This prevents player B from re-selling the GTC out of game for RL cash. This way CCP get the RL cash, all transactions are through account management, and third party middlemen are removed from the equation altogether. Well, if this is true then it's perfect. Note, seller = player A ;-) Note, buying from player A = trough account management /signed this particular version of Engrish snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
pyschosis	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:58:00 - [187] Edited by: pyschosis on 05/05/2007 03:58:22 Originally by: Petrothian Tong Psyc... unless the GTC prices for isk increases drasticlly... at current rates.. ANY 5 mill SP char can easily make that amount of isk for a 90 days card in 2 or maybe 3 weekends.... ofc. But that is the key difference. "Play to Players" will spend 2 or 3 weekends 'paying rent' while 'paid' accounts make profit/have fun for that time. That means less overall capability in game, as I can buy and fit additional BS for what you have to spend simply to keep playing.. in fact it will make 'griefing' the 'play2play' people MORE EFFECTIVE as you are actually hitting them where it hurts most, in the income they need to keep playing. oh btw I hate to break it to you, but server hardware WONT SOLVE most of the lag issues Eve has.. you are going to have to wait for World Wide Network upgrades. also since no one here as the actual numbers in front of them, I'll leave it to CCP to decide when trading isk for playtime actually hurts their bottom line. Less profit in the interests of a better gaming experience is a good thing for all.
Creepin	Posted - 2007.05.05 04:04:00 - [188] Originally by: Vashi Dokumentu so how much would 90 days time code for isk ?? 2-5b ?? Indeed. I don't give a damn whom exactly I'm buying GTC's from, but if prices will be increased at least twofold I'll have to give up EVE for good, as I'm barely making twice the price of GTC per month, so CCP may say farewell to all payments for my account And to think of all this mess while anyone who seriously intended to trade ISK for cash will always, ALWAYS, find a way to do so. As usual, CCP is going to create a problem not for macro-miners and stuff, but for casual players :(
Aaron Static Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.05 04:58:00 - [189] Hey what's happening in this thread? Oh I see, CCP is killing the game some more. gg ccp
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:08:00 - [190] Excellent news. At the same time this goin in, you're going to be limiting all other players to only be allowed to play as long as I can, right? Or, really, whatever the least amount of logged in time per month is, really, that's how long we'll need to all be allowed to play now, yes? After all, we can't have real world circumstances influencing people's ability to get ahead in the game. It's not fair that I, who make a good living can just buy isk by selling game time cards, so it's equally not fair that some one else, who works less than I do, should be able to play the game longer and just grind isk, right? Ok, cool. Let me know how much time we're allowed to log in an play per month as soon as you geniuses of what's fair and equitable get it sorted out. On the plus side, with no one being allowed to log in more than anyone else, this should help the lag quite a bit. Thans, guys. Not that whatever sarcastic reply I make to the thread will ever be read or considered by anyone at CCP ever anyway. "Give us your feedback, we read it all, and then ignore it completely and do whatever we were planning to do anyway."
Zanarkand Gallente Outer Heaven DARPA	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:51:00 - [191] Edited by: Zanarkand on 05/05/2007 05:53:08 Great job, CCP! Keep it up! This change will only make the game better. 3 major issues to look at from now: logging off & aggro timer problem titans local
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:58:00 - [192] I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. I do not think CCP really wanted to turn it into a legal ISK buying fest. With all of the GTC resellers it was becoming an issue as they were taking advantage of the situation to try and possibly cash out. And we know what happens when players abuse game features. CCP steps in and changes them. I welcome this change.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:58:00 - [193] So, CCP is cutting the middleman to sell the ISK for real money themselves? Otherwise what else would they be doing with all that ISK gained from selling game time to players? They can't run their company on virtual currency, they'll have to convert it somehow to RL cash.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:05:00 - [194] Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how?
Idara Caldari Missioners Anonymous	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:13:00 - [195] Edited by: Idara on 05/05/2007 06:10:30 Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how? They don't need the GTC sales to fund EVE, it was like icing on the cake for extra cash. But what the GTCs for ISK was doing to their game, their in-game economy must've been bad enough, or deviating too far from what they considered normal to keep it going. The game can run on cash subs alone, yeah it might be a hit to CCP's income, but if they're willing to lose some RL money to balance out the whack inflation in the game, good on them. They're always talking about ISK sinks, especially now with how the ingame economy is, this is a pretty good one. --- in EVE - Idara
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:23:00 - [196] (Part 1 ) This is the worst decision I have ever seen CCP make regarding the future of EVE. To be clear the following post is not specifically directed at Kieron but at those people within CCP who made this decision and gave Kieron the related information. From what I've seen so far I think some good points have been made and I apologize if I'm repeating them. Originally by: CCP kieron In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. A solution implies there is a problem. CCP has gone as far as to have posted a list of authorized ETC retailer sites available from the "My Account" menu and for a long time now has presented this method as a viable way for players to supply other players (who are in theory without the real-world financial means to do so) with the means to continue to play the game via trading codes for ISK. Indeed, the original trading rules were recently revised to protect both the seller-player and the buyer-player by introducing an accounts page interface to increase the levels of mutual protection. This allowed "hard-core" players with the time, but not the money, to play the game without paying for it themselves. It meant that one player would pay for the access of a second player. Alternatively, it has provided a legitimate, CCP-allowed means to those players who want to increase their ISK balance at the expense of their real-world finances to purchase GTC from CCP via an authorized reseller and then trade that GTC to another player for an agreed amount of ISK from that second player. In this model, it is expected that CCP was making money from the original ETC sale, with a small percentage going to the authorized reseller for providing the third party service. Having dealt happily with such an authorized third party retailer in the past, I have no personal problem with paying a small premium on the base price of a GTC for them to continue their business of making that GTC selling service available. The reason I am strongly in favor of this method and would argue firmly against eliminative changes is because it appeared to have provided viable competition to the practice of directly trading real-world currency for virtual currency from unauthorized third parties with disagreeable practices. An example of these parties are those who utilize mass EVE-mails, unsolicited in-game Local chat advertising, and even go as far as to position named containers around gates in the game to advertise their legally questionable services. These businesses operate at the expense of CCP hardware, software and staff resources and assuming they operate by automated ratting or missioning they create more ISK, rather than re-locate it (as trading ISK to someone for any reason where no in-game asset is exchanged in return does) - furthering inflation in the game at the cost of the wider customer base. People who want to trade dollars for ISK are generally going to be gamers who are taking the path of least resistance for maintaining their recreation. By removing one of these paths (the one that appears to be the only legitimate one) CCP is going to be increasing the demand of those unauthorized services from those players and in turn increasing the damage caused by the unauthorized services. (Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit !
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:24:00 - [197] (Part 2) Originally by: CCP kieron In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. How is this any different from the current model? A sit stands, CCP still gets money for the GTC and isn't getting money you can use to fuel your business better for your business than your own in-game data being shuffled to a different location on one of your hard-disks? Or is CCP going to start throwing money away? Will CCP pricing be competitive with the established "going rates", if you will? We're not going to magically forget what the established prices are. If you can't draw even for the current pricing you're actually going to make things harder for those customers you're claiming to be trying to help. Or is this the elimination of competition to form what is effectively a cartel so you (By whom I mean CCP) can set your own ISK-sink price? This isn't my own paranoia here, this is taking note of the element of distrust I think is now existing within your customer base of which previous CCP decisions are partly to blame. Originally by: CCP kieron Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option. As I said, this smacks of CCP setting a pricing cartel by eliminating the player/customer competition element. I also dread the knock-on effects I've mentioned relating to ôgold tradersö and making their solution for players more viable. Originally by: CCP kieron We still have a number of details to work out, as well as implementation and integration, but that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion created earlier. Now we have confusion and fear, though. It appears as though nothing good is being done and as other customers have already pointed out, doesn't EVE face bigger problems then the GTC ôissueö? Or is there something (dare I suggest yet again) we aren't being told about this û which it cannot be denied has been done in the past. A solution implies there is a problem. The information presented to us doesn't actually make it clear what the problem is and why such a draconian change is to be introduced to counter whatever this problem is. To sum up, at this moment in time it seems that these changes are actually going to make things worse. For everyone. You. Me. CCP. Why? (Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit !
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:24:00 - [198] Originally by: Farscape Hw ccp please do not remove the ability to buy time codes. i cannot pay for my 3 accounts atm but have plenty of isk. im having very hard RL issues and im sure alot of ppl are in the same boat as i. Here is a solution, don't have 3 accounts
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:24:00 - [199] Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how? Well, the players who pay with ISK, wouldnt pay with $. Meaning CCP would lose that account when their time ran out. Not all players are going to pay with ISK, and I think CCP knows this. They are getting two things from this: 1. Deflation, Massive ISK Sink which EVE desperately needs. 2. A Player that remains playing because he is able to support his account with ISK rather than $, an account they wouldnt have if they didn't allow ISK to GTC. Players are abusing GTCS far beyond what CCP wanted players to do with it, thats why they are stepping in now.
Creepin	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:26:00 - [200] Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. I do not think CCP really wanted to turn it into a legal ISK buying fest. With all of the GTC resellers it was becoming an issue as they were taking advantage of the situation to try and possibly cash out. And we know what happens when players abuse game features. CCP steps in and changes them. I welcome this change. I strongly believe that the ACTUAL REAL reason that CCP ever meddled into whole isk->gtc affair in the first place was because they figured that if they are unable to stop isk trading completely (they were, are and will be unable to stop it anyway) then it's good at least to be those who get some part of money from isk->real->isk transactions, not those who are just watching it. Not that I'm criticize this position, but you had to understand that this has nothing in common with charity or generosity, usual business. Also, I, for one, play EVE regularly, but without any isk-grinding sessions, so I make like 250kk per month. Well enough to pay for my account and to save a little for my own enjoyment. I really interested to know, what the f**k am I abusing here so much that I had to be thrown out from EVE???
Tek'a Rain Gallente Isis Technologies	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:29:00 - [201] Originally by: CCP kieron The recent MotD mentioning the sale or purchase of ISK for real money generated some questions about how Game Time can be traded for ISK, Game Time that was purchased with real world cash. In some of my replies, I was unclear. This wasn't by intention, but because of the information I am authorized to release at this time. In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option. We still have a number of details to work out, as well as implementation and integration, but that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion created earlier. quoted to try and make sense. is this clearing up the confusion by making a fairly vague statement and backing it up with total silence on the issue? this would Seem to say that the "isk and time rich" folks will be on a free ride, which My sub money (yes, I pay with real, old fashioned money instead of fancy game money) will be paying for along with a net result of CCP making less cash. less cash meaning less support meaning a dead game.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:30:00 - [202] Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 05/05/2007 06:10:30 Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how? They don't need the GTC sales to fund EVE, it was like icing on the cake for extra cash. But what the GTCs for ISK was doing to their game, their in-game economy must've been bad enough, or deviating too far from what they considered normal to keep it going. Are you serious? What if *everyone* decides to fund their gametime with ISK? How will they pay their bills then? Quote: The game can run on cash subs alone, yeah it might be a hit to CCP's income, but if they're willing to lose some RL money to balance out the whack inflation in the game, good on them. I don't think they're that stupid or naive. Their bean counters would murder them. Quote: They're always talking about ISK sinks, especially now with how the ingame economy is, this is a pretty good one. Yeah, it is a good sink. In fact, it so good - it can sink the whole company if they follow through with it.
Idara Caldari Missioners Anonymous	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:34:00 - [203] Edited by: Idara on 05/05/2007 06:30:03 Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 05/05/2007 06:10:30 Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how? They don't need the GTC sales to fund EVE, it was like icing on the cake for extra cash. But what the GTCs for ISK was doing to their game, their in-game economy must've been bad enough, or deviating too far from what they considered normal to keep it going. Are you serious? What if *everyone* decides to fund their gametime with ISK? How will they pay their bills then? Considering this game was around before, with paying subscribers too (OMG!), this whole bull**** GTCs for ISK thing, methinks this game can survive. --- in EVE - Idara
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:35:00 - [204] Edited by: voogru on 05/05/2007 06:31:45 Originally by: VossKarr Are you serious? What if *everyone* decides to fund their gametime with ISK? How will they pay their bills then? I dont think there is that much ISK in EVE. Originally by: Creepin I strongly believe that the ACTUAL REAL reason that CCP ever meddled into whole isk->gtc affair in the first place was because they figured that if they are unable to stop isk trading completely (they were, are and will be unable to stop it anyway) then it's good at least to be those who get some part of money from isk->real->isk transactions, not those who are just watching it. Not that I'm criticize this position, but you had to understand that this has nothing in common with charity or generosity, usual business. Also, I, for one, play EVE regularly, but without any isk-grinding sessions, so I make like 250kk per month. Well enough to pay for my account and to save a little for my own enjoyment. I really interested to know, what the f**k am I abusing here so much that I had to be thrown out from EVE??? The problem comes when GTC resellers buy up all of the codes with ISK. Not to sell them for ISK, but on eBay for $$$. And believe me, I think it was already happening.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:46:00 - [205] Originally by: voogru Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: voogru I think the actual real reason for GTC for ISK was to allow players to save money by paying for their game with ISK. But what will they do with ISK? They can't run their company on virtual currency. They'll have to convert to RL money. The question is how? Well, the players who pay with ISK, wouldn't pay with $. Meaning CCP would lose that account when their time ran out. Not necessarily. Anyone who could afford the option would have to be a pretty active player with lots of ISK. Anyone that active is not going to give up playing that easily. Quote: Not all players are going to pay with ISK, and I think CCP knows this. Yes. They also know that it could severely affect their bottom line if even 20-30 percent of all accounts go this way. Quote: They are getting two things from this: 1. Deflation, Massive ISK Sink which EVE desperately needs. They can easily solve this issue within the game (introduce new taxes for instance) without resorting to such measures that can affect their financial well being. Quote: 2. A Player that remains playing because he is able to support his account with ISK rather than $, an account they wouldn't have if they didn't allow ISK to GTC. Tell me, what good would such an account be to CCP from their POV? If such player is not even paying for server time and bandwidth he/she is not only not making CCP any money, he/she actually costs CCP money to keep.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:51:00 - [206] Originally by: VossKarr Tell me, what good would such an account be to CCP from their POV? If such player is not even paying for server time and bandwidth he/she is not only not making CCP any money, he/she actually costs CCP money to keep. I'm sure a lot of players don't quit, but they cancel cause of some finacial issues that they have currently run into. They cancel, with intent to re-sub when they get out of a hole, but they forget and never resub. Buying time with GTC, they might be able to take some ISK, buy a month of time, and continue paying as normally. I'm fairly sure CCP will price the time high enough so there will remain a strong incentive to pay with $.
Creepin	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:52:00 - [207] Originally by: voogru The problem comes when GTC resellers buy up all of the codes with ISK. Not to sell them for ISK, but on eBay for $$$. And believe me, I think it was already happening. I see your point, and I do agree that it could be somewhat unpleasant issue. But I do believe that this new CCP's hare-brained idea will mainly hit usual players, buying one 90dayer once in a few months, while those trading isks on industrial scale will always find some other way to do it. It's like in real life - each new law aimed against criminality usually hampers peaceful citizens, while criminals always manages to get away.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:52:00 - [208] I guess my point is this: Either we're missing something (Hi Kieron ) or CCP is out of their freaking minds.
Creepin	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:55:00 - [209] Originally by: VossKarr Tell me, what good would such an account be to CCP from their POV? If such player is not even paying for server time and bandwidth he/she is not only not making CCP any money, he/she actually costs CCP money to keep. Are you serious? Each and every GTC's are bought from CCP originally. So, from CCP's point of view, there's absolutely no difference if you pay 20 bucks for your GTC directly to CCP, or if someone else pays that same 20 bucks to that same CCP and later gives GTC for you in exchange of some of your isks.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:01:00 - [210] I doubt CCP will just sell the time for isk as it's not logical, what i see them removing is the resellable code that can be sold for RL cash. Player A buys time for RL cash, Player B can buy time from player A for isk both throu the account management page and no code is involved hence u can't sell the time for RL cash anymore which is the current problem. Either way just wait and see what the final sollution is before u start speculating about how much RL cash CCP will lose on something u have no confirmation on how it will work. btw. Thx Keiron for explaining that we will be able to pay with isk in one way or another still as that was realy unclear with your first post and a concern of mine, im sure u have a logical sollution that will make sense once u get the details finished. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world

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