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Skill training queue system wanted!

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Max Essen	Posted - 2007.07.14 16:45:00 - [91] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain If you cannoit plan your skill times to complete when your online then you fail at EVE The system is brilliant as it is, and has worked very well for a number of years. I think the Dev's have more important things to do than implement changes for lazy or cack handed people. Well, I am not lazy, but I travel quite often for up to two weeks at a shot. Also, as I have mentioned, my work laptop can not play Eve which is why I mentioned my desire to log into the Eve-Online website to start new skill training. I do not believe this makes me lazy or "cack handed", as you put it, and I seem to be able to plan fairly well in Eve so far.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.07.14 16:53:00 - [92] Well you would appear to be a genuine reason for implementing it, but I feel your situation is unusual. Not that I'd advocate using work related IT kit for non work purposes
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.14 21:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Zachstar Well since it seems the 2 hours I spent getting those quote posts to work right failed utterly to break through those traits above I see no reason to continue to debate with you as well. BTW Before you believe otherwise I am an adult American born and raised in Louisiana who has experienced first hand the horrors and errors of the US .gov Educational System and the generations I mentioned. The whole system is broken beyond belief and is so dull and unimaginative that it is quickly falling behind other nations. Thankfully a few teachers tried very hard to break through such idiocy by promoting self research (Not just flat out believing some BS someone tells you) and thinking for oneself instead of being a totally predictable borg in today's society. I think it needs to be made clear that this is a heated issue. As such I encourage all to make their voice heard here. If any action is to be taken it needs to be debated to death and back before anything. Anyway I wish not to continue my earlier points because I feel they are clear and good to go. So let me say this. This current system has really forced me to sit down and think about what I am going to do. I can lightly compare finding out what your goals are in EVE to light goals in real life such as losing a tad bit of weight or learning to fix a part of the car. It is challenging to figure out the timing and other parts of my character which is a HUGE plus for such a game. A game such as EVE ought to cause players to anticipate, plan, act, react, debate, and imagine for once. It needs not to cader to modern deficiencies in modern society but help encourage people to sit down and think for once. To resist constant automation and to maybe show some creativity. In my view it is imperative that the developers say no to this idea of a skill queue once and for all. I'm sorry you went to a terrible school. Perhaps if you'd gone to a good one you'd be able to put forward a coherent and reasonable explaination of why making it slightly less inconvenient to to train 6H skills will ruin EvE without making bizarre tangents into off-topic subjects and without insulting people. The Slippery slope fallacy is well known and easily refuted (luckily the internet is a fine resource available even to those with deficient educations). Perhaps you'd like to have a glass of cold water and a little fresh air. Then perhaps you could explain how a very modest request (almost everyone here has said they'd be very happy with either a 1-skill queue or for the next level in a skill to automatically start training) will cause an explosion in character farming, the destruction of EvE, the end of civilisation as we know it! I'd also like to add that even if that explosion occurred, farmed characters would still take 2 years to hit 30M SP, just like anyone else. The only benefit that these hypothetical character farmers would receive is in the early stages; so the supply of young "learning skills only" characters might increase. But the economics of selling young characters are already very poor; you have to pay the 20E to create the account, and 20E to trf the chracter, and then of course buy the skills and implants ingame - those are fixed overheads. And in any case, I'm not convinced that having a supply of "learning skills only" characters available is a bad thing. If I wanted to introduce a friend to the game, I would advise him to consider one, to cut a month off the time he'd have to wait before coming out to join me in 0.0 Do you have any evidence that EvE character-farming is widespread and problematic? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.07.14 21:22:00 - [94] Well that was a flat out insult and I feel no need to respond to any of your points. Again refer to my posts above. You completely failed to understand the post and I see no reason to constantly waste my time on quote posts when it's going to do zero good on yall. I will concentrate my efforts now on my views to the devs. These people are yet again ignoring experience and do not understand what a system like this will do. CCP please say no to a skill queue!
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.14 21:45:00 - [95] Edited by: Dimagus on 14/07/2007 21:49:49 Edited by: Dimagus on 14/07/2007 21:48:40 Edited by: Dimagus on 14/07/2007 21:47:33 I've personally lost a bit of training time in recent weeks due to server related issues, with no fault on my end. Being subjected to desyncs, intense server lag, being unable to load character sheets, etc. I was online and running missions when the whole server got fubared the other day, right in the middle of training low time skills on my salvager/industrial alt. When server problems hit, even loading the character sheet becomes problematic, and switching the training skill is unreliable. End up disconnected, can't get past authenticating for 10 minutes, get in far enough to start loading the system, disconnect again, then they take down the server for a reboot. Expecting us to be online at an exact arbitrary moment in time for every skill is a joke. We shouldn't have to be dodging and rescheduling around personal life, ISP/internet conflicts, or even server problems and downtimes. If I had only be able to log in at the appropriate time for switching that skill, and not an hour later when the server came back up, I would have lost far more than an hour of training. If I'm training Drone Interfacing IV and it takes 4 days, I want it to be done in 4 days and then move on to Interfacing V. I don't want to train 7% of some other skill I really don't want/need at the moment to waste 8 hours of micromanaging time availability. Put in a 1 skill queue, so when Interfacing IV is finished it starts up Interfacing V, and I'll still have to log in at some point to set the next one. As to the whole character farmer debate, it doesn't matter either way. The farmers either have a low-salary worker on 23 hours a day to click it, or they're botted and skills change automatically. A queue system isn't going to influence their setup at all, but it will help the honest players.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.14 22:30:00 - [96] Edited by: Malcanis on 14/07/2007 22:31:01 Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 14/07/2007 21:24:34 Well that was a flat out insult and I feel no need to respond to any of your points. Again refer to my posts above. You completely failed to understand the post and I see no reason to constantly waste my time on quote posts when it's going to do zero good on yall. I will concentrate my efforts on getting my view to the devs here. Instead of this crap why don't yall do the same? Both Anti and Pro Queue start posting YOUR reasons why you think its good or not. These people are yet again ignoring experience and do not understand what a system like this will do. CCP please say no to a skill queue! Well now that you know first-hand how people respond when you gratuitously insult them and their education, perhaps you'd like to reconsider a few of your earlier posts and apologise to the people to whom you directed them? Would you like to discuss this politely now? If so, I will edit my post. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.07.14 23:31:00 - [97] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 14/07/2007 22:31:01 Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 14/07/2007 21:24:34 Well that was a flat out insult and I feel no need to respond to any of your points. Again refer to my posts above. You completely failed to understand the post and I see no reason to constantly waste my time on quote posts when it's going to do zero good on yall. I will concentrate my efforts on getting my view to the devs here. Instead of this crap why don't yall do the same? Both Anti and Pro Queue start posting YOUR reasons why you think its good or not. These people are yet again ignoring experience and do not understand what a system like this will do. CCP please say no to a skill queue! 1.Well now that you know first-hand how people respond when you gratuitously insult them and their education, 2.perhaps you'd like to reconsider a few of your earlier posts and apologise to the people to whom you directed them? 3.Would you like to discuss this politely now? If so, I will edit my post. #1 No, You fail yet again... I am not seeing first hand of anything because my posts were not insulting. #2 HELL No! Why do I need to apologize for somthing that is not in error? Stop your mess as its wasting my time. #3 I see no reason to discuss anything with you. Stop responding to me, you are simply wasting the time of you, me, and CCP. No need to edit your post as I'm not some crybaby fool who gets his feelings hurt by someone mentioning how bad my nation's education system is. Sorry if that issue hurts people's feelings but maybe it's time to face the facts here.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.15 09:45:00 - [98] Well, thank you for helping us all avoid waste any further time. So.... who would like to discuss this politely? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:48:00 - [99] Originally by: Zachstar Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 14/07/2007 22:31:01 Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 14/07/2007 21:24:34 Well that was a flat out insult and I feel no need to respond to any of your points. Again refer to my posts above. You completely failed to understand the post and I see no reason to constantly waste my time on quote posts when it's going to do zero good on yall. I will concentrate my efforts on getting my view to the devs here. Instead of this crap why don't yall do the same? Both Anti and Pro Queue start posting YOUR reasons why you think its good or not. These people are yet again ignoring experience and do not understand what a system like this will do. CCP please say no to a skill queue! 1.Well now that you know first-hand how people respond when you gratuitously insult them and their education, 2.perhaps you'd like to reconsider a few of your earlier posts and apologise to the people to whom you directed them? 3.Would you like to discuss this politely now? If so, I will edit my post. #1 No, You fail yet again... I am not seeing first hand of anything because my posts were not insulting. #2 HELL No! Why do I need to apologize for somthing that is not in error? Stop your mess as its wasting my time. #3 I see no reason to discuss anything with you. Stop responding to me, you are simply wasting the time of you, me, and CCP. No need to edit your post as I'm not some crybaby fool who gets his feelings hurt by someone mentioning how bad my nation's education system is. Sorry if that issue hurts people's feelings but maybe it's time to face the facts here. Ok, now point on the doll where Malcanis touched you --- snip Trolling and discussion of moderation removed - Serathu ([email protected])
Stark Skari	Posted - 2007.07.15 22:41:00 - [100] I recently lost 22.5 hours od training time because a huge storm hit where I live. I'm not particularly mad, it's just annoying. Being able to queue one skill (or advance to the next level) would be a great addition to the game. Perhaps it oculd cost ISK to queue up another skill? I derno.

Belmarduk	Posted - 2007.07.16 17:27:00 - [101] Quote: When server problems hit, even loading the character sheet becomes problematic, and switching the training skill is unreliable. End up disconnected, can't get past authenticating for 10 minutes, get in far enough to start loading the system, disconnect again, then they take down the server for a reboot. Expecting us to be online at an exact arbitrary moment in time for every skill is a joke. We shouldn't have to be dodging and rescheduling around personal life, ISP/internet conflicts, or even server problems and downtimes. If I had only be able to log in at the appropriate time for switching that skill, and not an hour later when the server came back up, I would have lost far more than an hour of training. If I'm training Drone Interfacing IV and it takes 4 days, I want it to be done in 4 days and then move on to Interfacing V. I don't want to train 7% of some other skill I really don't want/need at the moment to waste 8 hours of micromanaging time availability. Put in a 1 skill queue, so when Interfacing IV is finished it starts up Interfacing V, and I'll still have to log in at some point to set the next one. As to the whole character farmer debate, it doesn't matter either way. The farmers either have a low-salary worker on 23 hours a day to click it, or they're botted and skills change automatically. A queue system isn't going to influence their setup at all, but it will help the honest players. That says it all... CCP PLEASE get the skillqueue from drawing-board into the NEXT build Thankyou yours sincerly
Zxenis Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:00:00 - [102] I vote for at least a 1 skill queue too.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:43:00 - [103] Originally by: Fswd Originally by: Zachstar Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 14/07/2007 22:31:01 Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 14/07/2007 21:24:34 Well that was a flat out insult and I feel no need to respond to any of your points. Again refer to my posts above. You completely failed to understand the post and I see no reason to constantly waste my time on quote posts when it's going to do zero good on yall. I will concentrate my efforts on getting my view to the devs here. Instead of this crap why don't yall do the same? Both Anti and Pro Queue start posting YOUR reasons why you think its good or not. These people are yet again ignoring experience and do not understand what a system like this will do. CCP please say no to a skill queue! 1.Well now that you know first-hand how people respond when you gratuitously insult them and their education, 2.perhaps you'd like to reconsider a few of your earlier posts and apologise to the people to whom you directed them? 3.Would you like to discuss this politely now? If so, I will edit my post. #1 No, You fail yet again... I am not seeing first hand of anything because my posts were not insulting. #2 HELL No! Why do I need to apologize for somthing that is not in error? Stop your mess as its wasting my time. #3 I see no reason to discuss anything with you. Stop responding to me, you are simply wasting the time of you, me, and CCP. No need to edit your post as I'm not some crybaby fool who gets his feelings hurt by someone mentioning how bad my nation's education system is. Sorry if that issue hurts people's feelings but maybe it's time to face the facts here. Ok, now point on the doll where Malcanis touched you That's not a doll; it's my alt... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Samiches	Posted - 2007.07.17 12:23:00 - [104] Zachstar is such a shining example of hypocrisies and absurdity it is actually funny. The majority (not all) of those against a skill queue have made hostile and fallacious posts. Those for the skill queue on the other hand have all made valid points. Originally I was neutral. When confronted with a raging mad man and a cool headed diplomat however, I tend to side with the diplomat. /signed for +1 skill queue
throbbinnoggin Gallente Eminent Domain	Posted - 2007.07.17 15:43:00 - [105] I don't know how this statement has been a part of "The Drawingboard" but it does give me some hope. Linkage Third paragraph from the bottom and I quote: "Skill Training - Queue or Dual training This could enable players to either queue skills so that when one level finishes the next level in that skill starts training automatically, or another preset skill starts training automatically. Dual training would enable you to have a primary long-term skill in training with a secondary short-term skill sharing the training time. After a level in the secondary skill has trained, the primary skill trains at full speed again." After skimming through these last 4 pages and reading all the arguments against even a simple single skill queue method... there really aren't any plausible arguments but I'll list the 2 main objections along with my rebuttal. 1) The character farmers are going to take advantage of this and destroy EVE argument. Response: Character and isk farmers are online 23 hours a day 365 days a year. That is their job. They keep fine tabs on their multiple accounts and don't lose out, except to the occasional server implosion which can effect us all. A single skill queue method is not going to alter farmers abilities to any significant degree. As far as non-paying accounts are concerned, disable the queue on them. If for some reason this is not possible limit the queued skill to no longer than one week running time. 2) The I work 4 jobs go to 2 schools working on 3 degrees while doing volunteer work for the Salvation Army, Red Cross and the local PTA so what's up with all you lazy (insert additional random insult here) people I can manage skill changes why can't you reason. Response: Irrelevent. This is not a valid reason against having a skill queue method. In summary: A single skill queue will not cause the downfall of EVE. All pitfalls of such have already been rebutted by posters before myself. I'm just adding my point of view. 1) Limit queueing system to only one skill to take over when the current one finishes. 2) Disable queueing for non paying accounts. 3) If number 2 is not possible, or quite frankly even if is is, limit the skill queued to no longer than one week running time. The only, barely valid argument of character farming, would be seriously inhibited by this method. Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. 'Abraham Lincoln'
Max Essen	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:50:00 - [106] I think I just realized why the "Skill Farm" argument may be invalid. If you have more than one Eve character, only one can train a skill at a time! Kind of makes the Skill Farming a bit unattractive to anyone trying to make money off of it. What do you all think?
Belmarduk	Posted - 2007.07.20 17:06:00 - [107] Originally by: Max Essen I think I just realized why the "Skill Farm" argument may be invalid. If you have more than one Eve character, only one can train a skill at a time! Kind of makes the Skill Farming a bit unattractive to anyone trying to make money off of it. What do you all think? Skillfarmers sit at their computers all day anyway. NOT having a skill-queue ONLY hurts casual gamers. In other mmorpg you skill during gameplay - In this game you skill even offline - It is calculated that the skill runs most of the time even when offline - Here comes the part where casual players are FORCED to go online to change a skill - If they dont you lose an extreme amount of time and whats the bloody point then in playing this game anyway?
Hakiro Murasame Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.20 20:37:00 - [108] LOL @ Brat & Zach. You guys are funny. I loved reading your invalid and poorly constructed arguments. The insults and sickening arrogance was very refreshing for all, I'm sure. I agree with adding a 1-skill queue. It would make the experience much better for those of us who can't predict the future and therefore can't log in to change skills all the time. It would still require some planning on your part as you would have to change skills when the queued one finishes, but it would add flexibility to the whole system, IMO. Ganj is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.07.21 01:07:00 - [109] I don't know. I dislike the idea of having a queue system simply because it doesn't feel eveish you know? I mean ya, I can tell that little girl-face-cpu thing to stick in Random Skill 5 into my brain when Random Skill 4 finishes, and it makes total sense that it would work, but I'd feel weird letting some cpu stick something in me while I'm sleeping in my goo... Weirdness aside, I am against the idea for unknown reasons. It would not benefit farmers in any way or form, they will be on anyway getting ISK and character farmers probably have macros set up already, realisticly. I do see why it should be implemented though, for those who have to work for weeks at a time and don't always have a 50-day skill to train, but that's the only realistic issue. If you can only get on for 2 hours a day, that's not CCP's probably to be honest. It takes 3 seconds to log on while you're munching on some breakfast before work, change a skill then. I'm not trying to bash anyone, but seriously. If a skills gonna finish at 3am, change it to the next skill you wanted to train and finish it later. "Getting 7% of a skill you didn't really need/want". I find it hard to believe you have only ONE skill you want in the entire game. I am against it for no real reason. Sorry to the guys who can't achieve that 100% effiency. Sorry to the guys that lose their internet and lose a day or two of training. I see no real benefits to adding a 1 skill queue system, aside from helping the people who arnt going to be on during that fleet op anyway, because they have to work all the time. I like the way it is now, simply because it feels right. Go ahead and bash me and repeat yourselves. If CCP adds this good on them; I'll make use of it regardless of my position.
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.21 05:16:00 - [110] My regrets to anyone that had a skill timer finish tonight, and my sincerest sympathy to anyone who couldn't stick around until the (eventual) end of this server fiasco. If only you had a skill queue, you might not be losing this training time :(

Reygrimm	Posted - 2007.07.21 05:23:00 - [111] Yes...Skill Queue system would be great for moments like tonight. Just allow me to put 1 in the queue :) Oh well, skill finishes in an hour, I'll be up in 8 or so...lose about 7 hours... life goes on....
James McRen	Posted - 2007.07.21 05:23:00 - [112] Originally by: Dimagus My regrets to anyone that had a skill timer finish tonight, and my sincerest sympathy to anyone who couldn't stick around until the (eventual) end of this server fiasco. If only you had a skill queue, you might not be losing this training time :( Yep, that's me. The skill on one of my character's finished an amazing !7! seconds after I was kicked off the server... Woo hoo... As I sit here I really do hope the severs will be back up when they say it will. (we all know that's very unlikely) To anyone who would say, "well, just do it tomorrow when it's back up - you'll only lose a few hours," I will get up and leave tomorrow during the standard downtime, and won't be back home for a week!
Panch0Villa Caldari AFK	Posted - 2007.07.21 05:59:00 - [113] I was training to a Level II skill. I log off to get a bite to eat, figure I'll be back in an hour, and voila, servers down and I'm wasting skill points. Argument: But the mean mean toon farmers will ruin my wittle game! Counter-argument: Training toons/alts/characters takes TIME, but hey, you can only train one person on a paid account at a time! How could that ever be truly profitable! Besides, it's not like a noob can come in with a purchased pvp toon and kick butt. They will just fork over their loot as fast as that faction-fitted isk-buying 9-year old that got popped the other day. You know which one I'm talkin about. In Eve, the forces of nature will take care of these guys. Argument #2: But you're just a whining whiny wittle whiner! Riposte: I pay for this account. Is it really too much to ask for me to keep my skill points? Especially when I lose a few hours of skills due to some server issues? Patch DL's? Lag? RL? My dog? My gf? It doesn't matter what you say here, because I paid cold hard cash to play. I can't pay, I don't play. Why would anyone say that these SP's don't belong to me just because I don't sit in front of my computer all the time? Argument #3: But then everyone else will have better characters than moi! Retort: No one is going to become pvp king simply because they can queue an extra skill. Do you realize that some people can only check their characters once or twice a week? Or that they don't want to gasp constantly check and recheck their characters skills? There has been/is no convincing argument against this, other than circular logic: We don't because we never had it... etc Argument #4: I don't like you because you are a __________________ who is lazy and therefore undeserving of a little common decency and respect. Comeback: Ok, if you do not agree, fine, I won't argue the point with you. Let's just take a poll and see how many people are for and against. This isn't about who is the most dedicated Eve player at all. This is about what the players want, and I don't think anyone has the right to feel indignant that I want to skill system to be easier on me. It makes no difference to me, sit in front of your computer until your eyes fall out of your head, or have a RL. It doesn't make a difference. And please, no more hostility, that will only get this thread locked. /signed "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Juin Dar	Posted - 2007.07.21 06:47:00 - [114] Something tells me Zack isn't even old enough to vote, let alone make a decision for over 30,000 people. As a democracy (we are right?) I 'vote' not demand, yes to the single queue and/or the backup queue.
Yoshi Horohito	Posted - 2007.07.21 06:53:00 - [115] I disagree with the lazy player post, a skill queue is needed when you factor in this constant server crashing problem. This is the second night in a row where the server crashed for no good reason for more than an hour and many people were caught off guard and were training a short skill. The argument for not having a skill queue is mostly due to the fact that you can train a skill and it continues to train while even if your account is inactive. I feel this should be removed. No other game do you gain advancement while not paying to play. In theory I could start training Titan ships and not ply to play for almost a year then come back in several hundred days and be able to pilot a Titan.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:58:00 - [116] Originally by: Yoshi Horohito I disagree with the lazy player post, a skill queue is needed when you factor in this constant server crashing problem. This is the second night in a row where the server crashed for no good reason for more than an hour and many people were caught off guard and were training a short skill. The argument for not having a skill queue is mostly due to the fact that you can train a skill and it continues to train while even if your account is inactive. I feel this should be removed. No other game do you gain advancement while not paying to play. In theory I could start training Titan ships and not ply to play for almost a year then come back in several hundred days and be able to pilot a Titan. Characters continuing to train helps CCP persuade people to return to the game. Titan-capable characters aren't likely to be neglected for so long in any case... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.07.21 20:56:00 - [117] Oh no! I set a queue of two short skills and teh servar crashed! CCP should make the queue longer than just one since they crash LIKE ALL THE TIME.
Renaile Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.21 22:45:00 - [118] I've only been playing for 3 days, so I don't know how much weight my vote will carry. But this game comes pretty close to sensory overload in the trial period. I would almost assume that a queue of 1 skill and no more, would be a simple non-detrimental change that would be a pretty big draw to a new player exploring the game. Especially when it means it's just one more small thing that you don't have to focus on as intensely while learning to actually play the game. The 3 times I've needed to skill up have been either while I was in the deep sleep portion of my sleep cycle or at work with 110% of my focus on the job at hand. Just knowing that there wasn't a 5 hour period between the completion of my last skill, and the initiation of the next would make the game a lot less frustrating to me. As for isk/character farmers, I have come from lineage II and wow, where the adema farmers completely destroyed the game, and gold farmers in wow have wrecked the economy and have infested almost every area of the internet. After just spending 3 days in the game, I can't imagine that allowing 1 queue would make it any worse than it is. They've already invested in the peon that sits there and clicks 'train,' having 1 queue isn't going to effect that much. /shrug I'd like to see it implimented, I have about a dozen friends that are looking for something else to play, and just simple things like this would make the game twice as appealing to newbies like us. It would be one more pro towards making my final decision to move from trial to paid. I'm not saying that I won't because of it. I'm just still deciding.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 00:52:00 - [119] All for it. CCP said they were working on it. Hopefully sooooon(tm)
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.23 21:53:00 - [120] Once again I feel sorry for anyone training a short skill or who has a long skill that finishes around now. Server's down again, no queue = training time lost for you :(



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