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Eagle -- 5th Turret?

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Terror DeBiaN Lucid Space Discoveries	Posted - 2007.09.14 17:52:00 - [1141] How about adding a 5th turret and adding a damage bonus for "longer range ammo". Only ammo that gives a positive range bonus would get the damage bonus. Would this prevent the Eagle from becoming too powerful in the short ranges, but give it a good niche as a medium sniper? Terror --- CEO - Lucid Space Discoveries -LSD-
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.09.14 18:32:00 - [1142] Originally by: Terror DeBiaN How about adding a 5th turret and adding a damage bonus for "longer range ammo". Only ammo that gives a positive range bonus would get the damage bonus. Would this prevent the Eagle from becoming too powerful in the short ranges, but give it a good niche as a medium sniper? Terror Caldari have a long lasting history with ammo based damage bonuses (kinetic missiles anyone ?) so this would actualy be inline with racial traits. Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 19:36:00 - [1143] Originally by: Goumindong [This is why i think it would be best to make changes that increase the viability of the ship in the short range without impacting its ability in the long. You've got totally the wrong end of the stick. The ship shouldn't be effective in the short range. It should be shat on by all the other hacs in that range. It is a v. long range cruiser. "Not affecting its ability in the long" just turns it into a short range cruiser, as it is currently nigh on useless as a sniper. The only things it can kill are pods, and non-mwding frigates. At everything else it fails. If the "best" suggested buff (the 5th turret) makes it too effective in the short range, then the short range hacs should be bumped up to maintain the status quo.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 19:47:00 - [1144] Originally by: Terror DeBiaN How about adding a 5th turret and adding a damage bonus for "longer range ammo". Only ammo that gives a positive range bonus would get the damage bonus. Would this prevent the Eagle from becoming too powerful in the short ranges, but give it a good niche as a medium sniper? Terror So long as the bonus was only to iron, i could see it working. But then the shikp would reall really suck in the long ran ge, an that sucks.
MailFan Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.14 20:16:00 - [1145] Edited by: MailFan on 14/09/2007 20:23:35 Originally by: Goumindong elm: the problem is not that the eagle gets too good in the short range its that ie eagle gets too good in the long range. Goum I still don't understand how you can be upset about 30 more Raw dps? Even if it would then outdamge the other sniper ships at ranges above 80km (which I still believe it doesn't ingame), it would only be by just a few dps? Who cares about Raw 30dps in a Fleetfight? Let alone Small gang or even 1on1? Probably only the Eagle pilots, because they feel they're finally in the same league as the other Hacs that got another turret. -- I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war Boost the Eagle
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 20:25:00 - [1146] Originally by: Goumindong elm: the problem is not that the eagle gets too good in the short range its that ie eagle gets too good in the long range. So your problem is that the long range cruiser of the long range race is too good in the long range?
BronYAurStomp	Posted - 2007.09.14 20:49:00 - [1147] Well come on now, this is about balance remember?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 21:32:00 - [1148] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong elm: the problem is not that the eagle gets too good in the short range its that ie eagle gets too good in the long range. So your problem is that the long range cruiser of the long range race is too good in the long range? With 5 turrets yes it would be. Just like the Myrmidon, the short range battlecruiser of the short range race is too good in the short range.[and so is getting nerfed]. Originally by: MailFan Goum I still don't understand how you can be upset about 30 more Raw dps? Even if it would then outdamge the other sniper ships at ranges above 80km (which I still believe it doesn't ingame), it would only be by just a few dps? Who cares about Raw 30dps in a Fleetfight? Let alone Small gang or even 1on1? Probably only the Eagle pilots, because they feel they're finally in the same league as the other Hacs that got another turret. above 60km. Your fleet commanders do. We have already established that a change to 5 turrets doesnt make it good in a small gang or 1v1 because sniping is not something you do in a small gang or 1v1. If you want it to be good in a small gang or 1v1 you ought to be supporting something similar to my propoals.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.14 21:59:00 - [1149] Originally by: Goumindong With 5 turrets yes it would be. Just like the Myrmidon, the short range battlecruiser of the short range race is too good in the short range.[and so is getting nerfed]. Hey, don't even go there. Your point comes through as far as your arguments are concerned, but what we're describing here doesn't even come close to the myrm. I think that a 5t Eagle will a lot be less overpowered than the myrmidon (compared to its peers) even AFTER (and if) the myrmi gets nerfed to use 5 meds... Give 6-7 turrets (no drones ) or a 125m3 dronebay to today's eagle and then we can start a comparison (relative) with they Myrmi's overpoweredness. Maybe then it would begin to touch how imbalanced the myrmidon is.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:05:00 - [1150] Originally by: Goumindong Just like the Myrmidon No. The myrmidon's (and to a lesser extent the eos') overpoweredness come from its versatility. The situations in which the Eagle would be "overpowered" would be quite specific and easily countered. (Also, the myrm was meant to be the gallente's midrange support BC. The brutix is the close range damage dealer)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:27:00 - [1151] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong Just like the Myrmidon No. The myrmidon's (and to a lesser extent the eos') overpoweredness come from its versatility. The situations in which the Eagle would be "overpowered" would be quite specific and easily countered. (Also, the myrm was meant to be the gallente's midrange support BC. The brutix is the close range damage dealer) The myrmidons overpoweredness comes from having no downsides to its higher DPS. The eagle would similarly have no downsides compared to the rest of the sniper HACs in those ranges. No downsides, only advantages...
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:50:00 - [1152] Originally by: Goumindong No downsides, only advantages... No downsides, other than having to constantly switch ammo to maintain its advantage, being a fat bastard of a boat, having poor tracking, doing laughable damage, having no form of point defense, being a ***** to fit effectively for fleet action and still being outclassed in its niche by the muninn.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 23:32:00 - [1153] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong No downsides, only advantages... No downsides, other than having to constantly switch ammo to maintain its advantage, being a fat bastard of a boat, having poor tracking, doing laughable damage, having no form of point defense, being a ***** to fit effectively for fleet action and still being outclassed in its niche by the muninn. You have to do no such thing with Ammo, you can simply load an advantaged ammo[the 99km ammo] and then keep using it. Or you can load long range ammo and use that. You just choose where to be shooting. With 5 turrets you would not have any disadvantage using any ammo. First off, you track fine, better than an unrigged Muninn[no, an unrigged Muninn doesnt tracking .56 since it cant fit the tracking computer]. You have point defense[1-2 launcher points]. You have perfectly acceptable DPS similar to all other snipers in the same range. Its stupidly easy to fit for fleet actions unless your skills suck, but then again, what the hell are you doing in a HAC if your support skills suck?[also, this might be your problem]
MailFan Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.14 23:35:00 - [1154] Originally by: Goumindong above 60km. Your fleet commanders do. We have already established that a change to 5 turrets doesnt make it good in a small gang or 1v1 because sniping is not something you do in a small gang or 1v1. If you want it to be good in a small gang or 1v1 you ought to be supporting something similar to my propoals. Above 60km is what you say, above 100km is what I say, so just take 80km as an example. FCs won't care at all if your eagle does 30dps more or not. Especially since the lower your skills the smaller the dps increase is going to be. So actual Raw dps increase would be more like 20dps raw, meaning around 14dps effectively The inty that would have gone down with 5 turrets will go down with 4 also. Most inty's that make it while fighting a 4 turret Eagle will also make it vs a 5 turret one. This just slightly improves it in the long range, however, it does improve the ship in the short range. 5 Turrets + 1 missile slot is very usefull and can give around 525dps. If still not good enough, give it a 5/2 layout. -- I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war Boost the Eagle
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 23:57:00 - [1155] Originally by: Goumindong You have to do no such thing with Ammo, you can simply load an advantaged ammo[the 99km ammo] and then keep using it. In which case, you lose your DPS advantage when they close the gap. Quote: You just choose where to be shooting. I refer you to the point of it being a fat *** of a ship. Quote: [no, an unrigged Muninn doesnt tracking .56 since it cant fit the tracking computer]. Why not? Muninns require TCs. Not using them is idiocy; wasting your bonus. Quote: You have perfectly acceptable DPS similar to all other snipers in the same range. Similar to the other snipers? Such as? What other cruiser engages at 190km? You're comparing the eagle... to the eagle. Quote:** [also, this might be your problem] Nice. Ignoring the actual argument and going for the personal attack. I was referring to the fact that fitting all the required fleet modules (MWD, 2-3x SBs, 3 damage mods, 3 tracking mods) leaves little to no room for anything else. You can fit a wonderful 2 standard missile launchers to fill your last highs dealing a wintastic 25dps to anything under your optimal and within 42km. Let's not even consider fitting remote reps, it just gets silly, then.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 01:07:00 - [1156] Originally by: Elmicker In which case, you lose your DPS advantage when they close the gap. No you dont. Either one of you can change ammos or both of you can change ammos. If you want to shoot at 90km, load that ammo, you will do similar DPS than the Muninns and Zealots. With 5 turrets you would do more. Quote: Why not? Muninns require TCs. Not using them is idiocy; wasting your bonus. Tracking enhancers. TCs dont fit with 2 sensor boosters and an MWD. Quote: Similar to the other snipers? Such as? What other cruiser engages at 190km? You're comparing the eagle... to the eagle. At 100km the eagle does similar dps to the Muninn and more than the Zealot. These are the next closest competitors at that range. This continues down until 80-85km where the Zealot and Muninn and Eagle do similar DPS, which continues down to about 60km where the Muninn and Zealot do slightly more DPS than the eagle. In a fleet, ranges below 60km really wont matter.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.15 09:46:00 - [1157] Originally by: Goumindong You have to do no such thing with Ammo, you can simply load an advantaged ammo[the 99km ammo] and then keep using it. Or you can load long range ammo and use that. You just choose where to be shooting. With 5 turrets you would not have any disadvantage using any ammo. First off, you track fine, better than an unrigged Muninn[no, an unrigged Muninn doesnt tracking .56 since it cant fit the tracking computer]. You have point defense[1-2 launcher points]. You have perfectly acceptable DPS similar to all other snipers in the same range. Its stupidly easy to fit for fleet actions unless your skills suck, but then again, what the hell are you doing in a HAC if your support skills suck?[also, this might be your problem] Eve doesn't work like this. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
baboote	Posted - 2007.09.15 11:21:00 - [1158] Change shield res bonus to 10% Spike M dmg per lvl.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.15 17:51:00 - [1159] Quote: At 100km the eagle does similar dps to the Muninn and more than the Zealot. These are the next closest competitors at that range. This continues down until 80-85km where the Zealot and Muninn and Eagle do similar DPS, which continues down to about 60km where the Muninn and Zealot do slightly more DPS than the eagle. In a fleet, ranges below 60km really wont matter. why dont you lie some more... at that range eagle does a good 30% less dps then its competitors. It in no way equals their dps.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.15 18:46:00 - [1160] Originally by: Goumindong At 100km the eagle does similar dps to the Muninn Fitting the Muninn for max range and tremor gets 114+22, and fitting the eagle with CN Uranium gets 114+15. So, comparable range in the 100km theatre. Muninn deals 223 dps with a frankly insane 1448 alpha, the eagle deals 173 dps (607 alpha). 33% less DPS. This also assumes the eagle pilot is carrying a wide enough range of ammos to suit the range of engagement. Quote: Its not a personal attack if your support skills arent up to snuff you will have a hard time fitting these ships well. It has nothing to do with support skills, you ****ant. The example i was using was with max skills. Once you've got an MWD on, you haven't got the PG to fit real launchers in your last 2 slots.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 18:48:00 - [1161] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/09/2007 18:49:11 Protip: dont use tech 2 ammo, despite its higher numbers, it does less damage than tech 1 ammo in the situations you will be using it. also, make sure the ship can lock to that range before you assume it can shoot there.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 18:50:00 - [1162] Originally by: welsh wizard Eve doesn't work like this. How so?
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.15 18:54:00 - [1163] Originally by: Goumindong Protip: dont use tech 2 ammo, despite its higher numbers, it does less damage than tech 1 ammo in the situations you will be using it. RF Carbonised lead then does 192dps and 1249 alpha, with a greatly increased tracking. Still a full 19 DPS more than the eagle. Quote: also, make sure the ship can lock to that range before you assume it can shoot there. The fit concerned can lock to 167.36km.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 19:27:00 - [1164] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong Protip: dont use tech 2 ammo, despite its higher numbers, it does less damage than tech 1 ammo in the situations you will be using it. RF Carbonised lead then does 192dps and 1249 alpha, with a greatly increased tracking. Still a full 19 DPS more than the eagle. Not at 114km it doesnt. Drop down another ammo and you will see the Eagle does 194 dps. Quote: The fit concerned can lock to 167.36km. Then its got no mwd.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.15 19:54:00 - [1165] Originally by: Goumindong Not at 114km it doesnt. Drop down another ammo and you will see the Eagle does 194 dps. With lower tracking, lower falloff, lower alpha and a healthy dosage of cap use. Muninn will still do higher effective dps. Quote: Then its got no mwd. Correct. However, drop a single sensor booster for an MWD and you're still locking at 110km, which gang skills bump to 121km. Then add a single targeting range rig, and you're at 142km. Anything else?
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.15 19:56:00 - [1166] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong Protip: dont use tech 2 ammo, despite its higher numbers, it does less damage than tech 1 ammo in the situations you will be using it. RF Carbonised lead then does 192dps and 1249 alpha, with a greatly increased tracking. Still a full 19 DPS more than the eagle. Not at 114km it doesnt. Drop down another ammo and you will see the Eagle does 194 dps. Quote: The fit concerned can lock to 167.36km. Then its got no mwd. Which you've repeatedly said is not required on sniper ships but omg is required on sniper ships. =/ There are lots of reasons not to fit a MWD on a sniper ship, just FYI. Liang Yarr?
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.15 19:58:00 - [1167] Originally by: Liang Nuren There are lots of reasons not to fit a MWD on a sniper ship, just FYI No there's not. Not one. I was silly for trying the fit without it. However, Using a single rig, there's still plausible fits that do exactly the same thing.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.15 20:01:00 - [1168] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Liang Nuren There are lots of reasons not to fit a MWD on a sniper ship, just FYI No there's not. Not one. I was silly for trying the fit without it. However, Using a single rig, there's still plausible fits that do exactly the same thing. Actually, there is. =/ System defense works really well without them. Liang Yarr?
Mississippi Gunn	Posted - 2007.09.15 20:10:00 - [1169] 40 pages of arguments for and against. How about some input from CCP?
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.15 20:15:00 - [1170] Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, there is. =/ System defense works really well without them. Only if you plan on losing the system.

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