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CynoJammer: What exactly is the issue?

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xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:46:00 - [61] Originally by: Princess Jodi There is no problem with CynoJammed systems. Many CynoJammed systems have fallen before. The current one just so happens to be very well defended. While it may be nearly impossible to take a system with a CynoJammer and 4 Titans in system, the other 4999 systems in Eve don't have that same kind of defense. Ever consider taking all the OTHER Bob systems in Delve first? There's the problem. We took the rest of BoB's space by hitting other systems, as they were spread out over a huge area. However once you hit a tightly contained area like Delve, everywhere is within jumpbridge range of everywhere else. A capital fleet can move between any station system in a matter of minutes and never leave the protection of a cynojammer. The large fleet required to hit a jammer protected solely by faction guns isn't exactly a stealthy force to begin with, and the defenders have plenty of time to move forces around to defend. CCP have already stated that cynojammers were intended to be a tool to: a) Encourage subcapital combat b) Give multiple smaller objectives in soverignty wars, reducing the 'blob' Instead they: a) Encourage capitals vs sub-capitals b) Provide a single large obstacle that can only be large fleet Just because BoB are the first alliance to use them to entrench themselves completely doesn't mean they will be the last. We already have several alliances with significant capital fleets and multiple titans. Capital fleets will continue to expand, titans will continue to be produced and other commanders will learn the defensive options at their disposal. Eventually, territory in EVE will eventually simply cease to change hands as more alliances realise they can be entrenched indefinitely once they surpass a certain point.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:48:00 - [62] Yes, I know: I was on the entire Querious campaign. The difference is that Querious was not defended, whereas Nol is apparently the best defended system in the history of Eve. I remember taking down a CynoJammer and Deathstar POS with only 40 battleships. We didn't loose anyone. The difference in Nol is that the defenders are actually manning the walls. I'm not saying that it is easy, just that brute force and swarms of ships doesn't seem to be the answer to this particular problem. That being said, I've got a DD-proof BS in Qy6 ready to kill more Bob Pos's when we're ready to make another attempt.
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:48:00 - [63] Originally by: Serrano Balthar Originally by: Yorda you're talking 2minutes just focusing on the jammer 2 WHOLE minutes ??? it can't be ! Did you even read what he said?
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:54:00 - [64] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Serrano Balthar Originally by: Yorda you're talking 2minutes just focusing on the jammer 2 WHOLE minutes ??? it can't be ! Did you even read what he said? No he didn't, it was just an incredibly weak troll. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:54:00 - [65] Originally by: xttz a) Encourage subcapital combat b) Give multiple smaller objectives in soverignty wars, reducing the 'blob' Instead they: a) Encourage capitals vs sub-capitals b) Provide a single large obstacle that can only be large fleet typical goonie spin
semp Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:58:00 - [66] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Gnulpie Xttz had a great idea. Cynojammers should disable all capital modules, so no triage, siege, DD, Portal, fighters, capital reps. That might fix things. Turn up in freighters to siege the POS, it has the same effect
semp Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:02:00 - [67] Edited by: semp on 10/03/2008 15:02:43 Originally by: xttz Originally by: Princess Jodi There is no problem with CynoJammed systems. Many CynoJammed systems have fallen before. The current one just so happens to be very well defended. While it may be nearly impossible to take a system with a CynoJammer and 4 Titans in system, the other 4999 systems in Eve don't have that same kind of defense. Ever consider taking all the OTHER Bob systems in Delve first? There's the problem. We took the rest of BoB's space by hitting other systems, as they were spread out over a huge area. However once you hit a tightly contained area like Delve, everywhere is within jumpbridge range of everywhere else. A capital fleet can move between any station system in a matter of minutes and never leave the protection of a cynojammer. The large fleet required to hit a jammer protected solely by faction guns isn't exactly a stealthy force to begin with, and the defenders have plenty of time to move forces around to defend. CCP have already stated that cynojammers were intended to be a tool to: a) Encourage subcapital combat b) Give multiple smaller objectives in soverignty wars, reducing the 'blob' Instead they: a) Encourage capitals vs sub-capitals b) Provide a single large obstacle that can only be large fleet Just because BoB are the first alliance to use them to entrench themselves completely doesn't mean they will be the last. We already have several alliances with significant capital fleets and multiple titans. Capital fleets will continue to expand, titans will continue to be produced and other commanders will learn the defensive options at their disposal. Eventually, territory in EVE will eventually simply cease to change hands as more alliances realise they can be entrenched indefinitely once they surpass a certain point. And yet with over 5000 pilots in your alliance you STILL cant finish the job. Is the game broken (all you hear from the goonies these days)? Or can you not organise a trip to a local alcohol making establishment ??
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:05:00 - [68] 5000 members doesn't mean 5000 individual people
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:05:00 - [69] Originally by: semp And yet with over 5000 pilots in your alliance you STILL cant finish the job. Is the game broken (all you hear from the goonies these days)? Or can you not organise a trip to a local alcohol making establishment ?? I dont even think most trolls are trying anymore. I mean, atleast you could read the post before replying instead of just quoting someone and spamming some generic message. (This is includes coalition trolls). Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:08:00 - [70] Originally by: semp And yet with over 5000 pilots in your alliance you STILL cant finish the job. Is the game broken (all you hear from the goonies these days)? Or can you not organise a trip to a local alcohol making establishment ?? How many did your coalition have when it got evicted?

DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:09:00 - [71] If there is anything wrong with cynojammers, its the simplicity of getting higher sovereignty levels. Right now you drop POS and wait x days. No extras on top of the usual deployment work that you will do anyways. That makes cynojammers common for every station system, and not just constellation sovereignty. They're common even for random systems that have no right being roadblocks. Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. You got stonewalled hard, but you wouldn't have lost all those towers if you didn't gamble. Taking down even defenseless towers is a pain in the ass, and a lot of work. You assumed the enemy was low on willpower and wouldn't do this work. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:14:00 - [72] Edited by: Yorda on 10/03/2008 15:13:55 Originally by: DigitalCommunist If there is anything wrong with cynojammers, its the simplicity of getting higher sovereignty levels. Right now you drop POS and wait x days. No extras on top of the usual deployment work that you will do anyways. That makes cynojammers common for every station system, and not just constellation sovereignty. They're common even for random systems that have no right being roadblocks. Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. You got stonewalled hard, but you wouldn't have lost all those towers if you didn't gamble. Taking down even defenseless towers is a pain in the ass, and a lot of work. You assumed the enemy was low on willpower and wouldn't do this work. I only understood the last sentance of this post. We didn't assume that, it was rather that one half of the offensive collapsed pretty much right off the bat so the other half was all but given up on. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Badhbh Terra Incognita	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:15:00 - [73] from what i read here and in the other topics about cyno jammers and titans the problem seem to be the doomsday not the jammer itself.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:15:00 - [74] Originally by: DigitalCommunist If there is anything wrong with cynojammers, its the simplicity of getting higher sovereignty levels. Right now you drop POS and wait x days. No extras on top of the usual deployment work that you will do anyways. That makes cynojammers common for every station system, and not just constellation sovereignty. They're common even for random systems that have no right being roadblocks. Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. You got stonewalled hard, but you wouldn't have lost all those towers if you didn't gamble. Taking down even defenseless towers is a pain in the ass, and a lot of work. You assumed the enemy was low on willpower and wouldn't do this work. We're stonewalled? No I have a lot of ideas left. I dont see bob attacking our stations after being "stonewalled" though.
Nightsabre Caldari T-Cells	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:17:00 - [75] Solution, DD's damage the jammer too, and are non resisted, so hit for the max potential damage of the DD. Risk vs Reward fixed. To save your jammer, you have to hurt it
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:19:00 - [76] Edited by: Yorda on 10/03/2008 15:19:54 Edited by: Yorda on 10/03/2008 15:19:40 Originally by: Badhbh from what i read here and in the other topics about cyno jammers and titans the problem seem to be the doomsday not the jammer itself. It's not even really the doomsday. It's the ability to easily get your capital fleet in and the only thing you have to worry about is a non-cap fleet. Carriers, motherships, and titans are all going to completely screw up a cynojammer takedown attempt. If DD's didn't work under a cynojammer then you'd just see 4 or 5 motherships fighterblobing the non-capfleet. As Scavok pointed out earlier in this thread, the intent of cynojammers was to provide non-cap fights and discourage blobs. What it has really done is forced cap vs. non-cap fights and made blobs the only option. Originally by: Nightsabre Solution, DD's damage the jammer too, and are non resisted, so hit for the max potential damage of the DD. Risk vs Reward fixed. To save your jammer, you have to hurt it 70k damage isn't really going to do much when the jammer has 16 million hp. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:19:00 - [77] Originally by: Nightsabre Solution, DD's damage the jammer too, and are non resisted, so hit for the max potential damage of the DD. Risk vs Reward fixed. To save your jammer, you have to hurt it That 70k of damage will sure hurt the 16mil hp jammer...
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:21:00 - [78] Edited by: xttz on 10/03/2008 15:23:38 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. Cynojammers shouldn't be impotent by any means. A well-designed starbase can already take on a significant force. Add sub-capital defenders to make this even tougher. The main problem lies in being able to bring in capital ships that have no possible counter. Perhaps it's just the idealist in me, but I believe (and I think CCP do too) that every strategy should have a viable counter. And as yet, no one has given a plausible solution to 4 titans sitting next to 1 cynojammer* *short of using a spy to offline the starbase
semp Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 - [79] Originally by: xttz Originally by: DigitalCommunist Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. Cynojammers shouldn't be impotent by any means. A well-designed starbase can already take on a significant force. Add sub-capital defenders to make this even tougher. The main problem lies in being able to bring in capital ships that have no possible counter. Perhaps it's just the idealist in me, but I believe that every strategy should have a viable counter. And as yet, no one has given a plausible counter to 4 titans sitting next to 1 cynojammer. 5000 goonies just isn't enough
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:25:00 - [80] Originally by: semp Originally by: xttz Originally by: DigitalCommunist Aside from that, cynojammers work as you'd expect. Why do you people think they should be a five minute speedbump in all circumstances? If they become impotent when supported by everything else in the game, including a large defense fleet, how useful are they going to be to an alliance that doesn't have the same isk or organization? Which is still, I'm guessing, most of EVE. Cynojammers shouldn't be impotent by any means. A well-designed starbase can already take on a significant force. Add sub-capital defenders to make this even tougher. The main problem lies in being able to bring in capital ships that have no possible counter. Perhaps it's just the idealist in me, but I believe that every strategy should have a viable counter. And as yet, no one has given a plausible counter to 4 titans sitting next to 1 cynojammer. 5000 goonies just isn't enough 0/10, you didn't even change your post. Even marakor is better than this. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were

maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:25:00 - [81] Originally by: Yorda As Scavok pointed out earlier in this thread, the intent of cynojammers was to provide non-cap fights and discourage blobs. What it has really done is forced cap vs. non-cap fights and made blobs the only option. And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?.
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:29:00 - [82] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Yorda As Scavok pointed out earlier in this thread, the intent of cynojammers was to provide non-cap fights and discourage blobs. What it has really done is forced cap vs. non-cap fights and made blobs the only option. And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?. hahahhaha
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:29:00 - [83] Originally by: maralt And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?. Such as?
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:31:00 - [84] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Yorda As Scavok pointed out earlier in this thread, the intent of cynojammers was to provide non-cap fights and discourage blobs. What it has really done is forced cap vs. non-cap fights and made blobs the only option. And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?. Ah yes, bring less ships and your sure to kill them! It's so obvious now. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Fry Fortune Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:37:00 - [85] There are ways around cyno jammers, however, with the current TQ lag situation they can't be executed. CCP have a choice really, fix fleet battle / system lag, or tweak cyno jammers in such a way that there are tactics around it that are not as badly hampered by lag, and that it requires perfect execution to attack, and perfect execution to defend. Being able to kill your own cyno jammer to get a new one up quicker is not the intended means to keep a system jammed, I rather think CCP designed it so you would have to rep the jammers up, this is a secondary issue but one that could use fixing if nothing else.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:39:00 - [86] Well, the only tactic that remains is the EC- one I guess. Jump in at an unexpected moment, put 600+ guys in the system and keep as many as possible there for however long it takes to take down all the POSses, never giving your opponent a chance to even jump in to defend his stuff. Is that what is gonna be needed in the future? Is that what a fun fight is gonna be like, bringing so many people in the initial assault and keeping it up for 48 hours until you've taken the whole system apart in 1 fell swoop?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:41:00 - [87] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: maralt And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?. Such as? You had most of 0.0 on you side, you took cyno jammed system after cyno jammed system off BOB who had the same amount of titans they do now, You had the cyno jammer down in NOL at one time and failed to capitalize on the situation because of either BOB's good organizing or your bad organizing il let you choose that one. And now you are alone and most of your allies have gone home you still need to ask others how to land the final blows?. Heres an idea buddy why don't you just forget about fighting and killing BOB all together and go find somebody else to play with because they are obviously out of your league. Either that or avail yourself of these services: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=716027
Zorland Minmatar Detinus Republic	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:43:00 - [88] Edited by: Zorland on 10/03/2008 15:43:25 at the Goon whine. "Nerf capital ships! Nerf fighters! Nerf cyno-jammers! Nerf titans!" If anything should be nerfed, it's blobs of noobs causing lag, overloading the server running that particular area of EVE and making it impossible to login and play.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:43:00 - [89] Originally by: maralt Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: maralt And yet GOONS claim that blob spamming cannot defeat a cynojammed system with titan/cap support so maybe you should try something else in game instead of screaming for a nerf or is skill less blob spamming all you capable off?. Such as? You had most of 0.0 on you side, you took cyno jammed system after cyno jammed system off BOB who had the same amount of titans they do now, You had the cyno jammer down in NOL at one time and failed to capitalize on the situation because of either BOB's good organizing or your bad organizing il let you choose that one. And now you are alone and most of your allies have gone home you still need to ask others how to land the final blows?. Heres an idea buddy why don't you just forget about fighting and killing BOB all together and go find somebody else to play with because they are obviously out of your league. Either that or avail yourself of these services: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=716027 I dont think "give up" is answering his question. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Local Her0 Minmatar La Mancha Corp	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Zorland Edited by: Zorland on 10/03/2008 15:43:25 at the Goon whine. "Nerf capital ships! Nerf fighters! Nerf cyno-jammers! Nerf titans!" If anything should be nerfed, it's blobs of noobs causing lag, overloading the server running that particular area of EVE and making it impossible to login and play. keep repeading it - it might become true if only you keep repeading it



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