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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:42:00 - [331] Originally by: Traeon I'm not interested in disproving your tactics, I'm interested in seeing whether or not they have any connection to reality, or are just Originally by: maralt unintelligible, theoretical and conceptual mindless drivel as you put it nicely. Considering you can read the tactics or at least a basic overview of them it matters not if i'm an 4 day old empire noob or a former FC from one of the games largest alliance's the ideas are there to read and for you to agree with or rebut as i have said. Do you honestly believe though that multi titans/ddd + cap/conv support should be nerfed as "unbeatable" as the OP claims before they have been tested in battle by an equal and opposite force?.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:55:00 - [332] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 17:58:09 You'll only get as much credit for your ideas as the forum alt that you're posting with. Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. People are also complaining about the mere existance of the DD because subcapital fleets were not very strong to begin with and with each titan in system they become less useful.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:06:00 - [333] Originally by: Traeon You'll only get as much credit for your ideas as the forum alt that you're posting with. Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. I give credit for good ideas and good planning in my life and game play the person who gives them is secondary to that, but if your the sort that thinks just because you do not know somebody that you ignore or think there ideas are not worthy you are as much fool as the person who follows blindly the fella who is well known. You need a good mix of all ships to do the job including titans, caps and a conventional fleet to beat a similar force and you cannot get more balanced, skill point and isk varied than that. A select few in titans the older richer pilots in caps the younger less rich in BS/support, perfect symmetry. The real problem is that the cap/super cap pilots do not want to risk there ships but are more than willing to get CCP to nerf the guys who are willing, so they can be killed by cruisers and other cheap crap.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:27:00 - [334] To be honest, I think you're just an example of an armchair general that is afraid of not being taken seriously enough on his main and chooses to use an alt instead... but you only lose credibility with that. What makes me think so? Your comments, your last one for example. How is a subcapital fleet needed to kill titans, dictors/hictors aside? It's not, they have no function that a cap couldn't fulfill better and on top of it are extremely vulnerable to DD's.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:38:00 - [335] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 18:40:58 Originally by: Traeon How is a subcapital fleet needed to kill titans, dictors/hictors aside? It's not, they have no function that a cap couldn't fulfill better and on top of it are extremely vulnerable to DD's. You not just fighting titans remember. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you proly did not read back as far as post188 and around there but even the most basic and noob of FC knows that even in a cap fight there is the need for support. Maybe not for actually engaging the titans but for defending the dreads/carriers from hostile support among other things. I think by your comments that my ideas are a bit to advanced for you bud cos i do not think to mention what i consider to be the blindingly obvious as i consider ppl to just know it. Maybe you should learn fleet ops 101 before you start making claims about what is needed in a mayor cap fleet battle let alone one including titans
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:42:00 - [336] Sure, subcapitals are needed to kill other subcapitals, but I asked about the titans specifically.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:46:00 - [337] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 18:47:33 Originally by: Traeon Sure, subcapitals are needed to kill other subcapitals, but I asked about the titans specifically. Then it was a stupid and pointless question as only idiots fly titans and set off their DDD unsupported in a war zone.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:51:00 - [338] What if other titans are the anti-support? Then subcapital fleets are pretty much pointless.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:55:00 - [339] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 18:56:22 Multiple titans, Capitals and Hictors. That's all what future fleet warfare will be like.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:58:00 - [340] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:01:04 Originally by: Traeon What if other titans are the anti-support? Then subcapital fleets are pretty much pointless. No it just forces the opposing FC's to adapt and maneuver their various fleets properly throughout the battle. Ask any fc if he would willingly take supercaps/titans and caps without support into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer.

gordon cain x13	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:02:00 - [341] Originally by: IamAcontractALT Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 09:04:19 Make HIC's doomsday resistant/immune? Then forces people to risk jumping in dreads to kill titans rather than whine on forums like a baby. 10 titans camping is great HIC can relax attacking while the titans gets rid of non-capital blobs on both sides and forces people to bring capitals only in to fight. And capitals are anti-titan ships. What are you talking about. They can already tank 2 if setup correct. Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:05:00 - [342] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 19:05:44 Quote: Ask any fc if he ould willingly take supercaps/titans and caps only into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer. That's the wrong question, because more of anything certainly isn't going to hurt, even against titans. The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. Which fleet do you think has better chances of holding or taking a system?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:12:00 - [343] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:15:52 Originally by: Traeon Quote: Ask any fc if he ould willingly take supercaps/titans and caps only into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer. That's the wrong question, because more of anything certainly isn't going to hurt, even against titans. The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. Which fleet do you think has better chances of holding or taking a system? You do realize that the fleet with only caps is virtually defenseless (apart from the titans DDD) to the hostile sniper BS and will need to literally sit on top of their friendly titans or get wiped out without being able to hit/destroy a single BS cos of crappy dread tracking?. Personally id go for a mixed fleet of titans, MS, caps and e-war and t2 snipers over a fleet of just titans, MS and caps.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:20:00 - [344] You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:22:00 - [345] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:24:10 Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:34:00 - [346] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 19:36:02 Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 19:34:49 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:24:10 Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:07:00 - [347] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:10:44 Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. Your entire cap fleet is gonna be have to move into a area of 10-20km max around your titans for your titan turtle to work and you do not consider that a problem lol have you ever jumped a big cap fleet into a system? the word bounce comes to mind tbqh let alone warping to a single point and not bouncing apart if you actually want to attack something. Do not get me wrong your titan turtle is a good idea but to get that many caps in the same spot all at the same time is a nightmare and totally impractical for any real use apart from sitting still when they finally get close together. Why do you think its ok for ppl to be able to kill titans/super cap and caps without capital support or there own capitals by just spamming crappy fitted T1 rubbish at them?. That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. If you must cry nerf instead of improving your cap fleet and using planning why do'nt you ask to reduce the DDD to 200km or so that would allow your BS blob to shoot at it or them if there is a few of them.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:16:00 - [348] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. Your entire cap fleet is gonna be have to move into a area of 10-20km max around your titans for your titan turtle to work and you do not consider that a problem lol have you ever jumped a big cap fleet into a system? the word bounce comes to mind tbqh let alone warping to a single point and not bouncing apart if you actually want to attack something. Do not get me wrong your titan turtle is a good idea but to get that many caps in the same spot all at the same time is a nightmare and totally impractical for any real use apart from sitting still when they finally get close together. Why do you think its ok for ppl to be able to kill titans/super cap and caps without capital support or there own capitals by just spamming crappy fitted T1 rubbish at them?. That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. If you must cry nerf instead of improving your cap fleet and using planning why do'nt you ask to reduce the DDD to 200km or so that would allow your BS blob to shoot at it. Let me respond to your question by more questions: Do you really want to use a T2-fitted ship when you know you're going to be killed by someone pressing 1 button? Would you rather be in a capital ship or a subcapital when going up against a Titan? Do you think it's good for the game if 0.0 consists of throwing Titans+Cap support against Titans+Cap support, and the average PvP'er gets left out, because there really is no fun in flying into battle when you know you're going to be killed by someone pushing 1 button without being able to do anything? Please answer this honestly, because I think we might just have different opinions on what constitutes "fun". And yes, I am an average PvP'er, and I have no interest in flying Capitals ever. HACs and Recons are where it's at.
Zeveron	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:28:00 - [349] I dont get the hole discussion here. Just bring the correct ship to do the job. Just think that Quality > Quantity You are not running LVL4 missions with rifters are you? RA and BoB prooved that titans can be killed with the correct fleet Either use the correct ship for the correct job or stop whining and leave it be Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:28:00 - [350] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:30:50 So you still would prefer 50 T2 sniper BS over 25 dreads and carriers? Okay Now to something else: Quote: That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. The fact that bigger ships are less effective against smaller ones is a fundamental rule in EVE. Titans break this rule - this is where the imbalance is at and nowhere else. Every ship is also less cost effective than a group of ships one size smaller. Quote: Just bring the correct ship to do the job. Most don't like (super)caps online.

maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:34:00 - [351] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:36:31 Originally by: Kingwood Do you really want to use a T2-fitted ship when you know you're going to be killed by someone pressing 1 button?. NO. But it is not 100% or even 1% guaranteed that i will die that way unless you have a kamikaze FC and they do not last long in there jobs tbqh. Originally by: Kingwood Would you rather be in a capital ship or a subcapital when going up against a Titan? Against a titan id fly what was needed to improve the fleet either a moros, thanatos or sniper depending on what support the titan had and what was needed but that is because it would be a fleet operation and not as simple as you want to make it look. Originally by: Kingwood Do you think it's good for the game if 0.0 consists of throwing Titans+Cap support against Titans+Cap support, and the average PvP'er gets left out, because there really is no fun in flying into battle when you know you're going to be killed by someone pushing 1 button without being able to do anything? NO. But you are deliberately over simplifying the maneuvers in such a large scale fleet op into a FC ordering the support into range of all the DDD and that is not the way it should be or if it is done the FC ordering the warp in should be removed from his position. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to zero on top of a smart bombing mega would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Originally by: Kingwood Please answer this honestly, because I think we might just have different opinions on what constitutes "fun". And yes, I am an average PvP'er, and I have no interest in flying Capitals ever. HACs and Recons are where it's at. So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:39:00 - [352] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:39:50 Originally by: Traeon So you still would prefer 50 T2 sniper BS over 25 dreads and carriers? The fact that bigger ships are less effective against smaller ones is a fundamental rule in EVE. Titans break this rule - this is where the imbalance is at and nowhere else. No i said i preferred a mix. Really how effective is a titan against a carrier or dread then cos they are smaller?.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:40:00 - [353] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:43:13 Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:41:14 Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:47:00 - [354] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop?
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:55:00 - [355] If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:00:00 - [356] Originally by: Kingwood If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better. There is nothing stopping anybody from attacking anything in anything in eve but if you go against certain ships in certain ships your gonna get you ass handed to you and if you go up against several of these ships more fool you. And do not play the "i cannot kill titans in a frig EVE no longer has meaning for me" thing cos its just silly.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:00:00 - [357] Quote: If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lolWink. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:02:00 - [358] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 21:04:37 Originally by: Traeon Quote: If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lolWink. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea. Maybe 200km would make things more interest...easy for ppl like you.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:04:00 - [359] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Noone is arguing that a few HAC's should be able to take out a Titan.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:06:00 - [360] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Noone is arguing that a few HAC's should be able to take out a Titan. Originally by: Traeon Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? lol read your own snip ffs.



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