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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:19:00 - [181] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Kagura Nikon Titans only ncreased blobage in this game. Worse jsut made it capital online and to kill even 6-7 carrier together you NEED a bob. They increase blobage because only thing taht can eal witht itans are only killable by blobing. I totally disagree. Titans discourage blobbing as blobbing becomes too risky. An oh, titans are not really killable by blobbing. 49- proved that.... Only caps can do it.... I think your statement of titans discourage blobbing needs to be adjusted a bit. I would say titans discourage fighting, unless you bring the biggest ******* blob in the game. So yes, titans discourage blobbing in the sense that they discourage 200 man fleets from attacking you. But since anything smaller than a 200 man fleet is utterly pointless, nobody will turn up at all. OR if they turn up, it will be with a 700 man fleet if at all possible, in order to make sure no titan could even jump into the system. If I had to plan the next attack on BoB, I would make sure I had at least 700 people ready to camp the system for 2 straight days, making all warfare impossible and giving you an almost guaranteed kill on any titan who would come into the system after you filled it with 700 of your own people just because you could kill it before it ever even loaded the screen. Titans discourage fighting much more than they discourage blobbing. Since outside of blobbing there is no counter, and blobbing itself wont work unless you bring an ungodly number of people, therefore titans discourage fighting. Now what I would like to see a mechanic that discourages blobbing (in the 400+ fleetsize range) but does not discourage fighting (in fleets up to about 200 people).
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:29:00 - [182] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/04/2008 11:29:26 Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Kerfira Nope, not trolling. Just thinking that game mechanics that work fairly well shouldn't be changed just because a group of sub-par players can't overcome them. Basically the only reason you are making these argument is because you think you're 'entitled' to win by blobbing. Titans prevent that, so you want them removed. Killing an online cynojammer on a fully faction fit large POS guarded by 10+ Titans is something that is easy to do? Because they cannot accomplish such a feat means they are subpar? Originally by: Kingwood No, it's primarily goons and Malachon who'd been arguing against everything BoB related since ASCN was killed. No, you need to read the thread, I saw two BoB posts that admitted Titans were in need of a change. That is quite a statement seeing as they apparently have a huge upper hand in the Titan department (or at least the known active titan department) Originally by: Kingwood And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. This is just a scare scenario with no base in how the game seem to be developing to support it. If it becomes a problem, CCP will handle it. No signs it will be though. From the MANY posts of old players, they will say that cruisers were once rare, now they are common, BS were rare, now common, Carriers were rare, now common. I saw a 15 man TRI MS gang, MS are pretty common. Logic dictates that soon Titans will be common. CCP has already stated numberous times in interviews and live dev blogs and the failed carrier nerf that they want to mess around with capital ships. You are wrong. I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we? Those statements are not from me. Well, 1 sentence, but I think you got something mixed up there.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:33:00 - [183] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 11:36:08 Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:57:00 - [184] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:00:16 There will always be blobbing as certain types of ppl will always need to rely on numbers, but multiple Titans discourage mindless conventional ship blobbing as you cannot just warp in at everybody's perfect optimal and start plugging away. You need plenty of tacklers in reserve either cloaked on grid out of range of the DDD or in a safe spot/pos ready to warp in and replace a pal who gets popped. You need to to use capitals to take out the titans with the dreads doing damage and the carriers to be nos/nut and bumping the titans. The conventional fleet can either engage the oppositions hostile fleet or not depending on how the oppositions fleet is positioned for example they may not wish to DDD their own BS fleet or the BS fleet may be far enough away from the titans to get a position that is outside DDD range. Now this idea is workable without having a titan of your own but if you did have one or two you could easily pop the oppositions BS fleet and own the field. The issue here is that the ppl with capital fleets, titans and conventional fleets big enough to plan such a campaign do not have the balls to do it because of the risk involved to there own high value ships so they are crying to CCP for a nerf so they can kill them in easy mode.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:05:00 - [185] Oh hey Maralt, 'sup. I missed your mindless dribble. (You're in the wrong forum)
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:09:00 - [186] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:10:00 Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey Maralt, 'sup. I missed your mindless dribble. (You're in the wrong forum) At least i post content you worthless troll. If you disagree with the basic idea i posted your more that able to actually post a counter argument or stfu and go back to caod where you insults and trolly comments are accepted. Let me guess your not gonna bother.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:15:00 - [187] Originally by: Traeon Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. Yup, that's the beauty of it. The blob of sub-capitals is discouraged. Problem at least partially solved as caps can now fight it out without the laggy presence of sub-caps. I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... Originally by: Traeon In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless. In simple words so even Traeon can understand: Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
0mega GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:21:00 - [188] Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:25:00 - [189] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 12:26:09 Aside from pulling made-up statistics out of nowhere, how often or not it happens is not relevant. If it's broken it's broken. Since I am personally affected and so are people around me I'm posting here. That is all - if you think the argument is not worthy of discussion then why are you posting here?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:28:00 - [190] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:29:40 Originally by: 0mega Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system. In most of the POS wars ive fought i jumped the capitals into the system then gang warped them to a grid loading position (to see if the grid could handle things and if not i jumped out) and then into combat range. Have capital ship tactics changed so soon cos i got sick of blob wars last year and started running small gangs instead?.

Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:49:00 - [191] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Traeon Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. Yup, that's the beauty of it. The blob of sub-capitals is discouraged. Problem at least partially solved as caps can now fight it out without the laggy presence of sub-caps. I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... Originally by: Traeon In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless. In simple words so even Traeon can understand: Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... And how is this good for a game where 95% of players cannot fly capitals? Why not simply forbidden < 20 M SP chars from entering null sec? The game Must focus on as many peopel as possible having fun! Titans go against this! If you have never seen a capital fleet blob a system completely you must undock more times. 100 capital fleets are not RARE anymore. And 100 carriers and moms spitting an average of 15 fighters are really much more system stressing than 300 Battleships. Also 99% of fights in 0.0 are NOT blobs are roaming gangs, so your 99% argument is void. 90% of the BLOB fights involve a large number of capital ships. Exactly because of titans. The blob would have exactly same size without titans. EXACLTY. The only difference is that you brigna cruisers instead of aproper ship if you are under threat of 7 titans. Neither I, neither no one else would ever NOT appear in battle because of the titans. They will just get cheap stuff, like BC or cheapest BS. That helps in NOTHIGN to diminish BLOB. In fact just makes worse the effect. If you have ever been at the Point Zero of a DD detonation over a fleet you know that. When a hundred ships die at same time the node get useless for at least half an hour. Titans are bad for this game on every concievable way. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Voculus	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:19:00 - [192] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. No, adding them to the game in the first place was stupid. There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. Titans were a poorly-developed idea, and the Doomsday Device in particular does not make Eve a better game - it makes it worse. I don't have eight Titans at my command. If I did, I have no doubt I'd get a thrill from being able to nuke anything with no contest. But as it is, I'm not drunk with such power, and can see the bigger, longer-term picture. Several months from now, when your alliance is deploying 16 Titans, and 50+ motherships at a single, cyno-jammed POS, the severity of the problem CCP created will only come into sharper focus. _________________________________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:33:00 - [193] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/04/2008 13:33:23 Originally by: 0mega Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system. The caps were NOT a big contributor to what was lagging that one out (yes, I was there)! The multiple 300+ man conventional fleets running around all over the area did that WAY before the caps started playing! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:40:00 - [194] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... Also 99% of fights in 0.0 are NOT blobs are roaming gangs, so your 99% argument is void. How many blob'by fights happen per week? 2-3? How many minor/major fleet skirmishes happens? Hundreds! 99% is a fair and accurate figure. Originally by: Kagura Nikon 90% of the BLOB fights involve a large number of capital ships. Exactly because of titans. The blob would have exactly same size without titans. EXACLTY. The only difference is that you brigna cruisers instead of aproper ship if you are under threat of 7 titans. Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! These people will find something else to do while the caps slug it out (ie. don't give me the lame excuse that they'll quit because of it)..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:41:00 - [195] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 13:43:44 Originally by: Voculus No, adding them to the game in the first place was stupid. There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. Titans were a poorly-developed idea, and the Doomsday Device in particular does not make Eve a better game - it makes it worse. It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:57:00 - [196] Quote: It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. How about you post with your main before accusing others of not having fought with or against titans?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:58:00 - [197] Originally by: Traeon Aside from pulling made-up statistics out of nowhere, how often or not it happens is not relevant. If it's broken it's broken. Except you haven't proven it is! You're just claiming it is! Does it prevent blobbing? Yes it does because people don't want to go where it is! Was it implemented to be a counter to blobbing? Yes it was. CCP said so at the time afaik! Can you prevent blobbing in any other way than by punishing people for doing it? No. People are herd animals! (qualified yes to complete rewrite of sov mechanics, but noone has made any useful suggestions yet as to how) So, is it working as intended? Yes! The only thing wrong is people's aversion against challenges..... I don't mind fighting against titan(s) (yes, I'd include plural. If my enemy has several in a cyno-jammed system and a support fleet capable of defending it, I would either: a. Come back when they're not there, kill the jammer quickly, hold the system while I kill the POS b. Try to lure them away by attacking somewhere else c. Break their morale some more by demonstrating to them they're not good enough pilots in other battles. Eventually too few of them will show up. ..and in any case look I'd forward to the possibility to strike a hefty morale blow if I manage to kill one of them... It's a challenge, even a big one. If I don't manage it, I'm not as good as them. If I manage it, I've proven I'm the better gamer. (this is assuming similar sizes of our fleets, incl. titans) Summing up 90% of the arguments in here against titans can be done quite simply: "My bigger blob can't kill the XXX-YY enemy system because there's titans in it making out-blobbing a dangerous tactic. It's not fair!!!" Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [198] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:02:39 Originally by: Traeon Quote: It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish. How about you post with your main before accusing others of not having fought with or against titans? If the best you can do to refute my post is an alt insult perhaps you should move to CAOD as this forum/thread is a place where content is > troll.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [199] Same for you as well Kerfira - before you accuse anyone of not being skilled enough to deal with titans, post with your main so we can see how much of an authority you really are in this field.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [200] Originally by: Voculus There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. You're wrong on this! There's a lot of skill involved on the Titan pilots side in how to get into position to press that button. Similarly there is a lot of skill involved on the other party's side not allow the titan pilot that chance. Big game, big risk! The most skilled wins hugely. If the titan pilot is most skilled, he dispatches the enemy fleet. If the opposing FC is most skilled, he might very well bag himself a titan trophy! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:03:00 - [201] Originally by: Traeon About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion. Whilst I respect your math, I think it still reinforces my point. Reduce the damage they do and people will just bring more of them. And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. And sorry, if you now say "but the lag", well that's just tough. The game has to be balanced AROUND lag, not FOR lag. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:03:00 - [202] Originally by: maralt ... How about you post with your BoB main before you lecture me on PvP tactics? You say blob spamming takes no skill, but DD spamming does? Seriously, are you for real? _________________________________________________________
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:04:00 - [203] Originally by: Traeon Same for you as well Kerfira - before you accuse anyone of not being skilled enough to deal with titans, post with your main so we can see how much of an authority you really are in this field. Bla, bla, bla.... Traeon: "I'm out of arguments so I'll try to play the 'alt' card".... Make arguments against what we're saying, not that lame 'alt' excuse... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:04:00 - [204] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: A Squirrel hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. Sovereignty Level 4 You broke ours, what's the problem? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:07:00 - [205] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:10:33 Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish. How about you post with your BoB main before you lecture me on PvP tactics? You say blob spamming takes no skill, but DD spamming does? Seriously, are you for real? If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. I did actually post summat to that effect but you snipped it out for some reason. I will put it back and also refer you to post 188 for another reference.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:11:00 - [206] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traeon About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion. Whilst I respect your math, I think it still reinforces my point. Reduce the damage they do and people will just bring more of them. And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. And sorry, if you now say "but the lag", well that's just tough. The game has to be balanced AROUND lag, not FOR lag. Point accepted about warping out and frigates.. but on the other hand, what would be so bad about a tanked frig surviving a doomsday? Also.. if diminishing returns are added, it doesn't matter how many titans are on the field, after a few it will make no difference to the effectiveness of doomsdays.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:30:00 - [207] Originally by: maralt If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. You won't be in a dread thanks to a cyno-jammer. I think you clearly missed the biggest reason this thread even exists. You would find yourself in a non-capital, and the Titan gang isn't going to fire off Doomsday weapons at nothing - they'll be firing them on your position, and then you'll be spinning your pod in a station somewhere. There is no high-degree of skill involved in maneuvering the Titans in that scenario. Once they nuke all of your ships, your pods, your drones, and your wrecks, what exactly is going to be left to threaten them, much less destroy them? _________________________________________________________
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:41:00 - [208] Originally by: Dianabolic And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. Do you think it could possibly be a case of ill thought-out game design when anyone not in a capital ship needs to spend their battle warping in and out of the grid on command? How much can sub-capital pilots possibly contribute when faced with a doomsday every 7.5 minutes? What about every 3 minutes? Every 30 seconds? We both know it will reach that point one day. Originally by: Kerfira There's a lot of skill involved on the Titan pilots side in how to get into position to press that button There's alot of repetitive work (hauling minerals and components) ISK (buying minerals, blueprints and skillbooks) and time (training long skills). But nowhere into that factors skill. Just simple determination to reach a goal. Now if every titan pilot had to pass a certifcation to fly the ship, you would be right. But as it stands I'm looking at a game where industrial alliances with absolutely no recognised PvP prowess are making titans for private sale. There is also at least one individual in EVE with _two_ personal, privately-financed titans. Please don't confuse skill with the ability to funnel isk into a series of repetitive tasks.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:43:00 - [209] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:43:53 Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. I did actually post summat to that effect but you snipped it out for some reason. I will put it back and also refer you to post 188 for another reference. You won't be in a dread thanks to a cyno-jammer. I think you clearly missed the biggest reason this thread even exists. You would find yourself in a non-capital, and the Titan gang isn't going to fire off Doomsday weapons at nothing - they'll be firing them on your position, and then you'll be spinning your pod in a station somewhere. There is no high-degree of skill involved in maneuvering the Titans in that scenario. Once they nuke all of your ships, your pods, your drones, and your wrecks, what exactly is going to be left to threaten them, much less destroy them? Like in QY6?. Anyway im sure this thread was about "multiple titans and DDD" as the title says not "cyno jammers multiple titans and DDD" which is or was a total separate thread altogether. I think its you who are in the wrong thread bud
NeverL	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:54:00 - [210] why didnt u attack nol when we were in qy6? how many titans were in nol? 16? if u dont know how to do something, u whine. but ur supposed to think about it and find a solution, thats what we, grownups do! __ We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction - General Douglas MacArthur



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