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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:22:00 - [541] Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:56:00 - [542] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.28 21:08:00 - [543] waddaya guys think of the doomsday as a device that causes the pace of the battle to speed waaaay the ** up for a short period of time without being an instant i-win button? how about something like a 5x bonus to everyone in squad's ROF for the racial weapons of the titan (except maybe caps in siege, drones or fighters) for a short period of time? everyone empties their guns onto the primary for a few cycles, or spreads out their fire to take out the enemy fleet piecemeal. maybe add the ability for titans to fit either siege or triage mods, if this were the DDD? now that i think about it, the only good thing i can think of that the doomsday currently does is, if you do 2-3 of them in succession, clears the grid of everyone's pods (wrecks too?) and boots people out of local (thus reducing lag, in theory). does this happen in practice? there's probably a million holes to poke in this, but whatever. anything to stimulate the discussion of an alternative to the current system. Originally by:** Matrixcvd can the RL arguments just take a back seat, i dont care about horatio hornblower or what the battle of juttland was like.
Kedo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 02:51:00 - [544] Why not just have an immunity timer? You can only get hit with a DD every 5 minutes or so. Many games use this such as a stun or mezz immunity timer just cause chain doing it is overpowering.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:26:00 - [545] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase. Reduced the number of drones a ship could deploy because of lag. Removed Torpedo "splash damage" because it caused lag (and got people concorded). EVE is balanced on lag all the damn time. Stop spouting nonsense.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.29 09:58:00 - [546] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase. Reduced the number of drones a ship could deploy because of lag. Removed Torpedo "splash damage" because it caused lag (and got people concorded). EVE is balanced on lag all the damn time. Stop spouting nonsense. Bull. Number of drones you could controll was nerfed yes, but a corresponding increase in drone damage was the counterbalance. Drones do the same damage as they did before, with the same amount of total hp. In fact its a buff if anything, because drones became half as vulnerable to smartbombs. Torpedo splash was removed due to concord, not because of lag. Be kinda silly to have one race's bs sized weapon be useless in highsec because everytime you fired concord came. So stop making **** up. Of the countless hundreds of nerfs and buffs in eve, you cant even name one nerf that was solely due to lag?
Aeleva Caldari Hegemonic Core	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:11:00 - [547] Drone balance was good, they are still very powerful Torps are now AWESOME! I mean the DPS you can throw out is stupid. Especially considering the lack of cap usage. I would be sad to see doomsday be "removed" If you get DDed your FC is doing it wrong. Why jump into a system via a camped gate? What is the jump bridge for? Have flown in 0.0 and avoided a few DDs. Of course i got killed in the massive lagfest after when enemy fleet jumped though :D If lag wasnt an issue then there wouldnt be a need to remove DDs as you could get out of bubbles or avoid it.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:15:00 - [548] Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Ship hitpoints have doubled over the last 18 months, capital hitpoints have been tripled to quadrupled. Object collisions, fleet mechanics and shiptypes have been changed/added to deal with the realities of lag.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:20:00 - [549] Originally by: Aeleva If you get DDed your FC is doing it wrong. Why jump into a system via a camped gate? What is the jump bridge for? If you can jump bridge, you own the system and have done so for 5 weeks. I'm going to venture a guess and say you're probably not going to be attacking your own station systems anytime soon. Quote: If lag wasnt an issue then there wouldnt be a need to remove DDs as you could get out of bubbles or avoid it. Funny story, in low lag it's perfectly possible to vaporize people the second they land - making the big assumption that they get into a system via stargates in the first place, which is not ******* likely. Lag has little to do with why Titans are a terrible idea, neither do recent politics since Doomsday complaints go back all the way before they were ever deployed.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:27:00 - [550] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Ship hitpoints have doubled over the last 18 months, capital hitpoints have been tripled to quadrupled. Object collisions, fleet mechanics and shiptypes have been changed/added to deal with the realities of lag. Ship hitpoints increased because ccp wanted to make combat last longer, but to reduce lag. Same with capitals, it was part of the "make combat last longer" patch.

aaron 619 Gallente DAB	Posted - 2008.04.30 10:01:00 - [551] Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. If I can do it, so can you! If you choose not to, your fault, not mine! Stop Spamming the T1 Nerf Torp CCP. Invent a T2 boost Torp and use it! Balance is Important, EVE still being fun, Priceles
Vincent S Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:35:00 - [552] Originally by: aaron 619 Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. No, the problem is that when you have a titan there will only be 1 corp in 0.0, because everyone else will have quit because the game sucks
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:35:00 - [553] Originally by: aaron 619 Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. so if you pay enough isk you should get an i-win button that can easily keep itself out of danger? you can't have fun with a titan if it doesn't have an i-win button? 75 billion is a lot, right? what if you're a corp of several hundred experienced players with several promethium and dyspro moons, numerous t2 bpo's, the bpos to build the titans already purchased, a jump bridge/titan bridge network that can move fleets of freighters from empire to your capital production poses in 2-3 jumps... suddenly, titans are no longer so far out of reach, and all alliances, even the ones living in the **tiest space (wink wink) can run their own titan project and get results. getting together 70 billion isk for the bpo is not hard in a big alliance (mandatory 70 million isk/character donation in a 1000-character alliance). building/acquiring all the capital parts to build a titan is not hard if you have a good industrial backbone managed by experienced characters (several motherships' worth of parts, which can be built with a half-decent industrial pos network and a station with factory slots). hell, even the biggest hassle, freighting all those parts to the capital construction array, is no longer a problem, now that jump-bridge networks can move the freighter trains right to the capital construction pos, and the freighters can drop the parts directly into the array without docking up and making a million trips in industrials to move the parts to the pos. i'm not even gonna comment on "managing" them, which, i suppose, involves parking the things intelligently, having one and only one pilot, and only fielding it when you have a support fleet to back it up. any ship class should be fun to fly, but since this is a multiplayer game, it can't make every ship class that flies against it not-fun to fly. this is the entirety of "balance" in the game Originally by:** Crimson11 Crimson11: What the hell happened? WarGod: Some breaking occurred, the Alt Key was involved, that's about all we know.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 16:49:00 - [554] Originally by: Chomapuraku any ship class should be fun to fly, but since this is a multiplayer game, it can't make every ship class that flies against it not-fun to fly. this is the entirety of "balance" in the game Yes, but clearly an alliance should just tell their members "if you don't fly a Titan you're useless" and build twenty Titans. Isn't it obvious that only the people who have and spend the most amount of money in EVE should be allowed to play?
aaron 619 Gallente Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:54:00 - [555] Edited by: aaron 619 on 02/05/2008 02:54:26 Yes. the rich own titans and the poor gather in force to kill the titans. its a rabbit hunt.....hehehe. I love to hunt rabbits if you think there invincible then your wrong. , The idea is it should take 70 bills in ships to kill a ship worth 70bills. look at the revy II trailor. two semeticale fleets with titans and MS and dreads.....so the titans go off. kill the support and then the caps duke it out to kill the titan capital ships are the next step after BS, just because you can't afford capital ships then you cry that titans are killing the game because they kill your Small cheap BS. oh boohoo.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.02 03:36:00 - [556] Originally by: aaron 619 Edited by: aaron 619 on 02/05/2008 02:54:26 Yes. the rich own titans and the poor gather in force to kill the titans. its a rabbit hunt.....hehehe. I love to hunt rabbits if you think there invincible then your wrong. , The idea is it should take 70 bills in ships to kill a ship worth 70bills. look at the revy II trailor. two semeticale fleets with titans and MS and dreads.....so the titans go off. kill the support and then the caps duke it out to kill the titan capital ships are the next step after BS, just because you can't afford capital ships then you cry that titans are killing the game because they kill your Small cheap BS. oh boohoo. you obviously haven't been read this thread, nor have you heard anything through the grapevine about the problem people have with titans right now, so sit down, and i'll tell you a story i was on a fleet op just now where there were two titans being staged. we were defending a station system, caps on both sides were in system, we had good numbers on both sides, we had the titans tackled a couple times, and they weren't double-doomsdaying. in short, there were good fights had, the BS fleet survived because they were doomsday tanked (easy to tank against just one, possible to tank against two, but it gimps your fitting.) in those situations, it's just the small ships that don't have enough HP and the poorly set-up BSes that buy the farm when the titan comes on grid. that's fine, because those that set up intelligently make it out alive now picture you're attacking a station system held by an alliance that can field 7 titans. you can't get your caps in becuase the cyno jammer is up, and it's on a deathstar tower with all the guns manned. the enemy can bring their caps in freely, because they have a bridge network. four of the seven titans are field all at once and the pilots synchronize to warp in at the same time and let off all their doomsdays at once. for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. the only way to take the station is if you have spies to turn off the cyno jammer (metagaming), or the titan pilots slip up such that there's fewer than 2-3 of them on at once (waiting for RL to take them away from the game, which can't be relied on in game balance). the fight basically doesn't happen, because you can't do anything to the sov or the towers themselves without caps, and you can't get the caps in without taking out the cynojammer. the defending alliance can just refuse to fight anywhere except the cynojammer POS (or a bridge pos) and take out the attacking force. what's that you say? stagger the BS fleet? not an option, because you can still fit a mean shredder pos that can take out any lesser fleet, and if the fleet grows large enough to threaten the guns, 2 or 3 of the titans jump in and doomsday apart from the fact that multiple titans in the same fight breaks fleet fight, in general, the DDD itself is a pretty cheap game mechanic. in situations with lag, you have a very slim chance of getting out before the titan hits the DDD, even if you are properly aligned at full speed. in the best of situations, the DDD eliminates any setup from the fight that isn't super-tanked, and multiple titans eliminate everything except cap ships from fleet fights (for the titan's side, anyways. the titan's fleet can warp in behind the DDD and tackle the enemy cap fleet). adding titans to both sides of the fight just turns it into Titans Online, where nobody else has a role in the fight. would you fly in and fight if you knew with relative certainty that you would die before being able to fight? so spare us the e-peen and start thinking about making eve fun for everyone in the fight, rather than just fun for the oldest, richest players.
Leeluvv The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:57:00 - [557] This thread has intrigued me and, as a non-cap pilot, I have a couple of questions: 1. What are the consequences of using a DDD? 2. Is the trade-off between the benefit and the consequence of using one or more DDDs suitably balanced? 3. What would be a better consequence that would still give DDDs the power that they have, but provide a more serious consequence to their use? After a DDD is fired, is something like a cap drain and cap recharge shut-down a valid consequence? Another ship would be needed to cap transfer, as the Titan would be 'dead in the water' having used the DDD. This would provide the bonus of the DDD, but also have a serious consequence for the ability of the Titan to defend itself. i.e. It can't, it would need friendly support to survive. These are just ideas, so comments please... Lee
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:16:00 - [558] I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on...............................
aaron 619 Gallente Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:11:00 - [559] Ok, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. but here are some more nifty points. " Siege then for crying out loud....make it hell for them to do anything with out losing something. Oh, and your battle tactics are flawed, for one, a small bs fleet with a lot of time and a turtle tank can tank any death star. If you need to get lets say the fleet is 50 BS and they are worth together around 6-7 bills, take the isk out of your own rich alliance funds and put it to use to take out that pos. that titan is worth 70-80 bill, and 7 are worth 7x times more. so if it even takes 3 or 4 fleets that have gone back and forth from the staging ground with pre fitted fleet ships, lets say each pilot has 7 ...then you should have no problem ether killing the fleet or the titan for that matter or the cycno jammer. this game is all about risk VS reward. until you realize that you shouldn't be able to take out a 80 bill ship with a 7 bill fleet then you can not be reasoned with and will continue to feel cheated and jealous of alliance's with 7 titans to field when you don't. whether you realize it or not, 7 titans in one place it a vary real risk and I would hate to be flying one. I don't think my gut could haddle the thought of losing something like that.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:27:00 - [560] Edited by: James Lyrus on 02/05/2008 23:28:17 Originally by: Chomapuraku for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. Just because I like a challenge: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0805/onyxtank.JPG [Onyx, DD Tanker] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Kaikka's Modified Photon Scattering Field Warp Disruption Field Generator I Cynosural Field Generator I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender II Core Defence Field Extender II 204kehps vs. EM 609kehps vs. Thermal 376kehps vs. kinetic 220kehps vs. Explosive OK, so it's not a _cheap_ fit - those invulns are 300mil, and I've no idea how much CDFE IIs are offhand. And a full pirate set is also not exactly a trivial amount of cash. But then, compared to the pricetag of the Titan it's tackling, and maybe counter-hotdropping - well, ok, that does need an un-cynojammed system, and no support, since you're going to be very low on EHPs after getting a quad DDD to the face.

Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.03 00:51:00 - [561] Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.03 01:47:00 - [562] Edited by: lecrotta on 03/05/2008 01:48:14 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this. READ OP (as it says nothing about jammers). THINK. THEN TROLL No need to nerf the titans then just reduce the range of the ddd to 150km or so, as it solves the problems you listed if you have a good fc.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.03 09:30:00 - [563] Quote: for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. 50mil? You can't even buy a hac for 50mil, what kind of ******** standard is that? A devoter can easilly be made to tank 3 DDs, 4 if you have a fairly cheap lg slave set and possibly up to 5 with a hg set. This is with a t2 fit, no faction or t2 rigs.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:31:00 - [564] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 03/05/2008 01:48:14 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this. READ OP (as it says nothing about jammers). THINK. THEN TROLL No need to nerf the titans then just reduce the range of the ddd to 150km or so, as it solves the problems you listed if you have a good fc. That would probably do the rtick. DD woudl still be non fun stuff. But reducing their range woudl be a very good fix already. Sicne would bring back some value to tactical positioning (If you split your sniper fleet in 3 parts for example a single titan cannot kill more than 33% of it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:38:00 - [565] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. 50mil? You can't even buy a hac for 50mil, what kind of ******** standard is that? A devoter can easilly be made to tank 3 DDs, 4 if you have a fairly cheap lg slave set and possibly up to 5 with a hg set. This is with a t2 fit, no faction or t2 rigs. I assumed it was a prize for setting up a quad-dd tanking subcap :)
Self One	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:29:00 - [566] Doomsdays make this game boring. Every alliance has now at least one Titan if not five. What is the point ? There are some pretty good ideas of tactical weapons for titans in this thread but i doubt CCP has any guts about this problem.
Alice Atphosea	Posted - 2008.05.04 07:44:00 - [567] Tanking 4 DD's is irrelevant considering the picture the op linked has seven Titans on it. It doesn't take much of a stretch to think that alliances will continue to build more until HICtors (and all subcapitals) simply aren't a problem anymore.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:06:00 - [568] Originally by: Alice Atphosea Tanking 4 DD's is irrelevant considering the picture the op linked has seven Titans on it. It doesn't take much of a stretch to think that alliances will continue to build more until HICtors (and all subcapitals) simply aren't a problem anymore. Somethign more scary is that certain 3 alliances combine their titan fleets they can start DDing carriers :P
Alice Atphosea	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:06:00 - [569] I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game?
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:31:00 - [570] Originally by: Alice Atphosea I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game? They, like me, are probably waiting to see a fight take place where the fleet attacking the titans doesn't cost less than a tenth of the defending fleet. Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not.



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