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maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:02:00 - [61] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:05:59 Originally by: Kerfira You do know that there's no rule against sending in more HIC's after the first 4 DD's has gone off?? Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. Keep sending more in ffs your trying to kill several multi multi billion isk ships do you think that it should not cost you a quite few if not a lot of tacklers????. Originally by: Malachon Draco And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? If you have all your pieces in place your caps should have the titans locked and so preventing any cloaking and its not like these things are interceptors that can turn or warp out easily especially if your carrier group has it locked, nuet and also gives it a regular bump.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:04:00 - [62] Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. ..i..
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. I don't think many titan pilots will warp their ship into that, especially if there's lag (which there will be). And don't give me the BS about cyno-jammers. It's been conclusively demonstrated this weekend that a cyno-jammer protected by an alliance with access to multiple titans can't be defended by them. Why? Because no alliance can have X titans online 23/7, and it only takes 5 minutes or so to melt a jammer with a proper fleet. After that its purely a matter of having the will and skill to hold the system until you've killed the POS. Also conclusively demonstrated this weekend. Who's winning in this instance is determined the same way as all other wars in EVE has ever been. The party whose morale broke first is the one who lost, simply because their people and allies (incl. more titan pilots than BoB have), didn't bother showing up. Titans had little or nothing to do with that. CAOD is that way -> Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. The point I am trying to make is that the situation will only get worse. Yes, an alliance didn't have coverage in QY6, which of course had nothing to do with the fact that its 80 friggin jumps from their homespace. That does not change the fact that a cynojammer covered by multiple titans is practically unkillable. And if the current number is not enough, then people will build more and more and more until there are enough and eventually alliances will be able to protect their cynojammers with titans around the clock. This is an issue that is not going to get less bad over time, it will get worse. And the complaints will get worse until either CCP caves in or people mass-migrate to other games where its not so biased in favour of huge epeen waving weapons that kill the fun for all the normal players.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. --
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. Now, let me see. It takes something like 35+ DD's to kill dreads. That means that the side with the titans are committing ~30 times the value of the dreads. Fair enough they should win. Of.c. then you warp in another 10 titans of your own, press the button and DD those 40 damaged titans into wrecks. There's always a counter. It's just a matter of whether you're prepared to take the risk. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:13:00 - [66] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:15:35 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:15:00 - [67] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. Yes, but ask yourself, if we continue on the current trend, is it a matter of 'if' it will happen or 'when' it will happen?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:17:00 - [68] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:17:51 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. Yes, but ask yourself, if we continue on the current trend, is it a matter of 'if' it will happen or 'when' it will happen? Then fix it "when" its broke not before, but then this is about killing bob not about a overpowered ship. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:19:00 - [69] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 15:22:13 Originally by: Malachon Draco Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. So what you're basically saying is that I'm not allowed to use REAL examples about how titans are used in EVE, but your scare scenario (which are not supported how things actually happens in EVE) is to be accepted as the holy writ? You fail a lot with that argument! Titans are not a 'problem' in-game! They may prevent people from taking systems they think they're 'entitled' to take, but the real reason they can't take them is usually that they're not prepared to risk anything to do so (ie. the old "we have more players so we must win!" way of thinking). How titans are used these days also indicates they won't become a problem, at least for a long time. Titans are not cyno'ing around in 0.0 DD'ing small gangs, DD's are very rarely used at all (as I already demonstrated to you). Your scenario is a scare scenario with no basis in how things actually happen in EVE. Overcoming a titan supported defence is a challenge, multiple titans make it a bigger one, but not an insurmountable one. I like a game that sets high challenges. Only real way to sift the men from the mice. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:26:00 - [70] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. So what you're basically saying is that I'm not allowed to use REAL examples about how titans are used in EVE, but your scare scenario (which are not supported how things actually happens in EVE) is to be accepted as the holy writ? You fail a lot with that argument! Titans are not a 'problem' in-game! They may prevent people from taking systems they think they're 'entitled' to take, but the real reason they can't take them is usually that they're not prepared to risk anything to do so (ie. the old "we have more players so we must win!" way of thinking). How titans are used these days also indicates they won't become a problem, at least for a long time. Titans are not cyno'ing around in 0.0 DD'ing small gangs, DD's are very rarely used at all (as I already demonstrated to you). Your scenario is a scare scenario with no basis in how things actually happen in EVE. No, you can use current situation as an argument. I.e. saying, they are currently not being used like that is an argument that is valid. Saying: you are noobs and you can't defeat BoB is not an argument, its an ad hominem which is not relevant in any real discussion. Especially since I am not in the business of fighting BoB. Basically we have a debate with two valid positions (valid as in 'adhering to the basic requirements of being a reasoned position, not necessarily true). You're saying: It hasn't happened yet, so it won't happen in the future. I am saying: Considering the trend in the number of titans built and being built it will be a big problem in the future. That is the discussion. I disagree with you because I see no reason why the current situation should be indicative in any way of what happens in the future in terms of behaviour, and I have given you examples of how motherships were used until they were nerfed with HICtors. The trend to overuse of supercapitals exists in my opinion, because people were doing it with moms, and I see no reason to believe the same won't happen with titans.

Draygo Korvan	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:34:00 - [71] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:15:35 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?. Moros with Resists: EMP/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive Shield: 12%/29.6%/47.2%/64.8% Armor: 84.5%/74.8%/74.8%/65.1% Hull: 60%/60%/60%/60% Shield HP: 195313 Armor HP: 234275 Hull HP: 273438 Effective HP of a moros on an all level V character (in relavent skills) 1, 931,123 Level 4 Doomsday raw damage (one damage type): 65625.00 Level 5 Doomsday raw damage: 70312.50 Number of level 4 doomsdays to instapop that moros: 30 (29.4266) Number of level 5 doomsdays to instapop that moros: 28 (27.4649) -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Malachon Draco ..... and I see no reason to believe the same won't happen with titans. So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? Especially when there isn't any real indications that it will, that'd be a pretty silly thing to do. I'm fairly certain CCP are monitoring the situation and will take steps IF things become unbalanced. This hasn't happened yet, nor is the argument "More titans are being built day by day" an argument it will. Titans are still dreadfully vulnerable, but unless an enemy is willing to face the RISK in trying to take down a titan (or more), which might include loosing BS fleets and/or multiple caps, they're safe. This'll only last until the next titan pilot gets a little bit too***y though..... It ain't broke, so it doesn't need fixing! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Before supercapitals everything was working fine, every ship had a place, some were barely, if at all, worth bringing (newbies in cheap t1 ships), some were very valuable (dreads and carriers). Then somebody at CCP thought subcapitals should be excluded from the deciding fleet fights.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Before supercapitals everything was working fine, every ship had a place, some were barely, if at all, worth bringing (newbies in cheap t1 ships), some were very valuable (dreads and carriers). Then somebody at CCP thought subcapitals should be excluded from the deciding fleet fights. I think that is about positioning your forces and using your head, but unfortunately ppl want all the work done for them to beat these ships and to just warp in close and hit f1-f8 and watch it eventually go pop without losing some ships to tackle them or risking some of there own high value assets to kill them.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:00:00 - [75] Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Originally by: Traeon Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:18:00 - [76] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill. Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. And as far as the titan stopping skill less blobbing i say it does because if forces ppl to maneuver there fleets and assets instead of just dropping them on a target and hitting f1-f8.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:27:00 - [78] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 16:28:49 Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill. The simple action of pressing that button doesn't require skill, agreed. Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent FC! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy, and that the punishment for failure is a potential dead titan! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:28:00 - [79] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:29:10 Quote: Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. Did it cross your mind that perhaps there was more than just numbers involved there? Anyway, in my experience numbers alone don't win. Quote: Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy! I know it's not that simple, but i'm sure it's easier than coordinating a whole fleet.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:35:00 - [80] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 16:35:56 Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy! I know it's not that simple, but i'm sure it's easier than coordinating a whole fleet. You'll be managing your own fleet at the same time (unless you're stupid enough to operate a titan without support). The titan is added complexity as it comes on top of that. Add that your opponent probably also has one or more titans (at least they should if they want to play with the big boys), and you add a new layer of complexity to FC'ing. Complexity in a game is good! Big rewards should also come with big risks. Let the better player win and the less good player cry! EVE at its best (ref Wranglers comment quoted below)! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Traeon Quote: Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. Did it cross your mind that perhaps there was more than just numbers involved there? Anyway, in my experience numbers alone don't win. It did cross my mind but now that the numbers are greatly reduced and BOB is pushing forwards and taking back space id say that the answer is very much "yes" to the fact it was just sheer numbers that gained all that space. I my experience "numbers" alone do not win either but a "shag load of numbers" do and did.
L70Rogue	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Zagum Darkfin Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. Yeah of course a BoB member is annoyed that there spawned titans (t2 bpos) will probably be nerfed again. oh boohoo
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:54:00 - [83] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Zagum Darkfin Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. Yeah of course a BoB member is annoyed that there spawned titans (t2 bpos) will probably be nerfed again. oh boohoo I thought it was a sabre and a t2 ammo bpo (wow real game changing isk value) that got took off them.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:19:00 - [84] Can we please leave CAOD out of this? This isn't about BoB. Many alliances have this capability now: Morsus Mihi has at least four, Red Alliance has at least four, BoB has eight, and this will only get worse as people realize the only way to hold your enemies hands behind their backs is to build as many Titans as possible. What's the use of subcapitals aside from suicide cannon fodder? Should territory wars only revolve around people suiciding entire capital fleets against each other in a game of server roulette as the node decides who gets to control their ship and who simply dies unable to see the name of the system they're in? How does one even engage a fleet of ships with subcapitals when any area around it is a deadzone of 500k+ HP multi-damage-type alpha? "Attacking other targets" doesn't work because reinforced timers dictate when engagements happen, and you only have 48 hours to work with so it's not like you can 'sacrifice 300m ISK pawns' to attack other systems either. The game is broken when the highest class of shiptype below capitals is seen as nothing more than a frigate as far as strategic importance goes. Take CAOD out of here, please.
Megan Maynard	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:34:00 - [85] Titan kill lag, I just wish that drones and wrecks would pop faster. A giant field of wrecks and drones does just as much to lag as anything else. Why should a ship that costs 50 bil be easy to kill? Bob's been in Delve for how long? It should take a while to root them out. They've had 2+ years to fortify it. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:46:00 - [86] People like Kerfira will scream the loudest for a Titan nerf in 6 months (if he's not a BoB alt) when (if at all) they're trying to move to 0.0. Obviously lots of the arguments here are politically motivated, and people are either too stupid or deliberately unwilling to see the point of this argument. In 6 months, Alliances will field multiple titans at will. BoB, with the current game mechanics, will survive and field 20+ titans, if not more. There is nothing to counter a titan blob, except another Titan blob. Subcapital fleets have no purpose anymore, except for suiciding against Cynojammers, so that the Titan and Capital blob can get into the system. If that Cynojammer is defended by multiple Titans, well, good luck. EVE 0.0 game mechanics are horribly broken. In a year, Titan blobs will be able to doomsday away Capital fleets, obsoleting even them. EVE right now is Caps Online. In a year, it's Titans Online. The alliance with the most Titans wins. It's an arms race right now. Also, I should save the responses to threads like these. Once Goonswarm is able to field multiple Titans at will too, I'll start throwing them around too.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:51:00 - [87] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 31/03/2008 17:54:12 I'm not saying Titans should be easy to kill and I haven't said that at all since the conception of this thread and nobody has except the people screaming "THEY SHOULDNT BE EASY TO KILL". Ideally, Titans should never be put in harms way. Why? Because THEY SHOULDN'T BE TACTICAL WEAPONS. They should be strategic weapons for moving an alliance around. They should be mobile outposts that allow alliances to move around and set up shop with a huge store of ships. They should allow an alliance a greater ability of jumping into a new ship and fighting. Instead, they wipe away entire fleets of ships, nullifying hours of work by the average EVE player through a single button push. Nobody was complaining six months ago because this kind of stuff simply wasn't happening. Quad-DD's were considered something to be off in the future that nobody wanted to think about. At most you had two Titans in the same system, and if you had enough support that would nullify two. But now groups of three or four are considered "standard", while groups of five and up are becoming increasingly popular among the richer alliances. This is game-breaking. A single Titan is defenseless, but with five or six buddies he's invincible.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:03:00 - [88] Oh, and good luck to any new alliance trying to establish itself in 0.0 space in 6 months. You'll need it.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:12:00 - [89] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 18:15:42 Multiple titans + cap support + conventional ship support are not invincible unless you want to kill them without the risk of taking heavy losses in doing so. The problem is that the whiners are not willing to risk or take those losses so they are crying to ccp(again). Originally by: Kingwood Oh, and good luck to any new alliance trying to establish itself in 0.0 space in 6 months. You'll need it. Well i suppose they could nap their way to a home in 0.0 its how you did it.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:24:00 - [90] Oh hey, I see you were in QY6 yesterday too. Soz, since you're obviously an able FC, tell me how to take out 9 titans and 110 Caps in a system with 700 in local. (Without me having to bring in 10 titans and 120 Caps). Good job bringing CAOD into here.



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