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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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FERRET MAN Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:05:00 - [1] Edited by: FERRET MAN on 30/03/2008 21:05:20 How is this enriching to the game? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0803/bob_waiting_in_qy6.jpg How does this promote combat or warfare? http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7665/titansor5un4.jpg The game is broken. Nothing can counter eight Titans. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. Remove the doomsday before this game gets ground into dust like it almost was this time last year.
LukeDS Mothers Against Video Game Violence	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:16:00 - [2] Just like to say, I lol'd at those screen shots. Caps online 4tl. And on topic - you can't really just remove the DD, it would then make the Titans completely useless. If you come up with a good alternative maybe it would be looked at IMO. You can't just say "Remove the DD". Even tho 7 Titans is evil, there are ways to kill them. Just takes smart thinking. Btw, Fish will rule teh world!
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:18:00 - [3] Why not just remove all of the Titans instead then?, the Doomsday weapon is all the Titans have. First the Titans could fire off a dd via a cyno, it got nerfed. Then you want to remove the dd totally. Jesus, think before you post. If i have been the designer of the Titans in EVE, no ships except for ships bigger than battleship should not be able to tank a dd at all, if you get dd'ed and can't get out, you SHOULD die whatever reason in a ship smaller than a carrier. CCP, fix my forum portrait goddamnit.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:25:00 - [4] Originally by: LukeDS there are ways to kill them NO, THERE ISN'T. Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario: Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again. You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away. You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed. You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed. Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang. Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support. The game is BROKEN.
ristorante State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:29:00 - [5] The problem was lag + titan. People adjusted by tanking their battleships. Now the problem is lag + multiple titans. You can't tank that. You can have reinforcements if the system is lagged.
gordon cain	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:41:00 - [6] Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:07:00 - [7] Originally by: NightmareX Why not just remove all of the Titans instead then?, the Doomsday weapon is all the Titans have. This very not true. If you cannot figure out how to use titans without their DD, then you should not be planning any strategic ops. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:15:00 - [8] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 30/03/2008 22:15:47 Originally by: gordon cain Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain I hear "running away" makes a great defensive strategy, or that reinforced timers don't dictate engagement times. The well known 0.0 space-holding entity known as 'x13', as seen by their many stations on the influence map, should know this.
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:20:00 - [9] Indeed, titan jump bridge is very very powerful. On to the topic of hitting other systems, etc., mobility in 0.0 is now very good becuase of jump bridges and jump drives on capitals. Even if you manage to hit another system, the hostiles can respond pretty quickly. Removing DD from the game is a bad idea, but by its nature it had potential to be overpowered, like here. One titan isn't really overpowered. Multiple titans, like here, are not really counterable due to overlaping doomsdays. Fixes should address that the DD effect is more or less ok but the ability to do it rapidly is a problem. Things like 1 week cooldowns OR longer spin-ups (makes effective cycle-DDing harder), direct counters (shield ship), and increased disadvantages might be in order. Other factors that need looking at are the lag (makes DD much much more dangerous because the 15sec spin-up is a joke if there is heavy lag) and cyno-jammers (force the use of conventional fleets vs titans and other caps/supercaps, NOT AS INTENDED)
Erotic Irony	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:29:00 - [10] just read it ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul

Tobias Sjodin	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:50:00 - [11] Lucky for us CCP are looking into it. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Black Hand.
gordon cain	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 30/03/2008 22:15:47 Originally by: gordon cain Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain I hear "running away" makes a great defensive strategy, or that reinforced timers don't dictate engagement times. The well known 0.0 space-holding entity known as 'x13', as seen by their many stations on the influence map, should know this. Well most of x13 is sitting in QY right now. Was with bob taking down the cyno jammer right next to your titan pilot a few days ago also. Im just saying that dont complain if you cant force your way into a system, when using the exact same tactics if you had the same number of titans. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
NightmareX	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: NightmareX Why not just remove all of the Titans instead then?, the Doomsday weapon is all the Titans have. This very not true. If you cannot figure out how to use titans without their DD, then you should not be planning any strategic ops. Well without a doomsday device a Titan is just a big ship with less DPS than a Battleship. I'm talking about the weapons you can use on the Titan. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. CCP, fix my forum portrait goddamnit.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:15:00 - [14] DD's were never needed in the first place, and CCP apparently counted on them being so rare and hard to build that they'd never become overpowered. No ship class obsoletes the smaller ship classes below it, ie cruisers don't make frigs useless and so on. Why should titans be able to break this fundamental rule? There will be nerfs to either DD's or other things to make Titans more killable in the future. It's just a matter of time. One idea that I proposed was diminuishing returns for DD's fired on the same grid, so that massing dd'ing is no longer a viable tactic, but single dd's remaing useful.
achoura Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:20:00 - [15] Actually a devoter can take 3 dd blasts if you fit it right but the cap problems But the previous poster is right, titans break one of eves fundamental rules, somewhat ironically the carrier/new bs argument is still raging on (tbf carriers shouldn't be used as bs) ut at the speed some allaicne are going,not a reference to bob - there are plenty out there with multiple titans around now, they're slowly going to fall into the carrier/bs category. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Commoner Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:23:00 - [16] The role as a mobile station would be a much better role for the titan, along with a HUGE damage bonus to capital turrets, making such a beast a true anti-capital ship. The worst pvp'er in EVE :
Mysdora eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:32:00 - [17] So what would be a good solution to this problem? Perhaps a new ship class / module that works a bit like heavy interdictors, except the bubble blocks 75% of doomsday damage of one type, and you use scripts to switch types? Or maybe instead of per-titan DD cooldown, you could have a per-grid DD cooldown so that you can't blast multiple DDs one after the other on the same grid.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:45:00 - [18] Originally by: gordon cain Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain How do you beat 1 titan with a small gang, much less 11. At what DD rate per minute do titans actually become overpowered in your opinion. When titans start dding capfleets sieging pos's (as they are required to in order to take systems) and killing them, is that not overpowered? Imagine an alliance with 50 titans (we will get there) how do you take any of their systems without any capfleet you use against a pos being dd'd? I would love to hear your solution, because all I see is politically modivated posturing to try to maintain a status quo that is clearly unacceptable in the long run. When you cant force your way into a system with a small gang, a big one is required. I would love to see a nano-hac gang do anything strategic. --
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:52:00 - [19] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: NightmareX Why not just remove all of the Titans instead then?, the Doomsday weapon is all the Titans have. This very not true. If you cannot figure out how to use titans without their DD, then you should not be planning any strategic ops. Well without a doomsday device a Titan is just a big ship with less DPS than a Battleship. I'm talking about the weapons you can use on the Titan. No, its not, do i have to spell it out for you? [Also, guns on a titan lol] http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Mysdora So what would be a good solution to this problem? Perhaps a new ship class / module that works a bit like heavy interdictors, except the bubble blocks 75% of doomsday damage of one type, and you use scripts to switch types? Or maybe instead of per-titan DD cooldown, you could have a per-grid DD cooldown so that you can't blast multiple DDs one after the other on the same grid. I suggested that the space where a doomsday is used becomes "drained" and subsequent dd's do less damage the more are used in a short timeframe. The space would return to normal after a certain amount fo time, say 60 minutes. In this way a single titan can dd as good as ever, but amassing titans for dd abuse won't be possible anymore.

NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:27:00 - [21] Edited by: NightmareX on 31/03/2008 00:28:37 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: NightmareX Why not just remove all of the Titans instead then?, the Doomsday weapon is all the Titans have. This very not true. If you cannot figure out how to use titans without their DD, then you should not be planning any strategic ops. Well without a doomsday device a Titan is just a big ship with less DPS than a Battleship. I'm talking about the weapons you can use on the Titan. No, its not, do i have to spell it out for you? [Also, guns on a titan lol] I know it's lol to have guns on the Titan, but that was not the point, the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? And i also know the Titan have some few more things that you can't do with a Mothership. But paying like 85-90 more bill isk for ONLY some few more things that you can do with a Titan over a Mothership is a total waste of isk. CCP, fix my forum portrait goddamnit.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:32:00 - [22] Quote: the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? Jump portal generator.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Traeon Quote: the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? Jump portal generator. Yeah that was some of the things that you could do over a Mothership in a Titan. CCP, fix my forum portrait goddamnit.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:52:00 - [24] Originally by: NightmareX I know it's lol to have guns on the Titan, but that was not the point, the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? And i also know the Titan have some few more things that you can't do with a Mothership. But paying like 85-90 more bill isk for ONLY some few more things that you can do with a Titan over a Mothership is a total waste of isk. Actually a titan has less combat ability than a mothership. That is not what you would be using your titan for. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:58:00 - [25] Edited by: Alyx Alyn on 31/03/2008 01:03:36 Alternatives to the Doomsday (off the top of my head) - Nanite Storm (disables tanking modules for 5-10 minutes) - Electroweak Destabilizer (reduces all capacitor levels to 0) - Vacuum Bubble Expander (delivers a stepped % reduction in HP to all targets - so caps drop a lot whereas BS < aren't hurt nearly so badly) Or the simplest one - which would be to give the DD a lot more damage but then apply it based on an inverse square to the target like a real omnidirectional explosion. So driving the Titan right up into a carrier might pretty much kill it, being even a few klicks away would make it incredibly survivable (i.e. it would blast tacklers at range, but everything else lives). EDIT: Actually that last one would be the easiest to balance since there'd be definite "survival zones" around a DD. To be honest though, no matter what you do it eventually becomes a problem regardless. Personally I like one of the ideas where it's only ever worth firing 1 DD at a time and that you can get around the effects thereof - the capacitor one for example wouldn't be too worthwhile hitting people with repeatedly and can be countered but still provides tactical benefits (logistics dependence/cap booster usage and the like).
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: NightmareX I know it's lol to have guns on the Titan, but that was not the point, the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? And i also know the Titan have some few more things that you can't do with a Mothership. But paying like 85-90 more bill isk for ONLY some few more things that you can do with a Titan over a Mothership is a total waste of isk. Actually a titan has less combat ability than a mothership. That is not what you would be using your titan for. I know i know, but the Titan should have something very special that can be used in the PVP field, even when the Titan is not meant to be a better combat ship than mothership. CCP, fix my forum portrait goddamnit.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:09:00 - [27] I realize Titans would be paperweights without their doomsdays. And thats the problem: they're designed to wipe out entire fleets. They should be ENABLING subcapital fleet combat, not wiping out entire fleets of ships, regardless of their size, their fittings or the pilots skill, with a single button push. Four people spending 50B ISK should not enable them to play EVE on god mode, yet here we are. Turning them into mobile stations would be the best option that everyone wants but as usual CCP is taking their sweet ******* time with it.
Seludran Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:19:00 - [28] As said above, simply posting nerf is not a very intelligent argument but at least it has stimulated some ideas. I think current situation with bob has made this more of an issue than it really is right now but i do agree long term this could become a more serious problem. When an alliance which is as wealthy and has as many high sp chars avail as bob and then currently finds itself pretty much in one region then they can re-deploy titans and rest of fleet quite easily. However if we were talking about fights over multiple regions then obv the titans would be stretched more thinly. The current situ in delve therefore is not one u would see that often elsewhere. So i dont think any knee jerk reaction is required. That said the isk costs of a titan are becoming less of an holy f$%k and within reach of more alliances and thus allow more multiple titan alliances. Titans can be killed (this shouldnt be ignored), yes u will need a very strong cap fleet and support but the scenario given above ignored the fact that if their bs start warping out u take the hint and do the same!! Simply increasing build cost would have an effect but only a delaying one. Removing DD would really make titans worth little for their cost. As said dps is poor and so without dd ur looking at making titans mere logistics boats for jump portals. Yes portals are very useful and worthwhile but worth a 80bill base cost ship...no. Longer times bw dd`s is an option but then without increasing them to scary lvls like 1 per day etc u will totally ruin 1 or 2 titan alliances and still leave the situ where lots of titans allows enough dd`s and thus people keep multi building titans. this is a top of the head idea but what about a module on a pos (yes like we dont have enough controversy about those :)) which is a requirement for a dd. maybe even as harsh as one module per titan wanting to dd or it has a timer so only limits all titans in system to 1 dd (total) per hr. If u want to dd in a hostile system ur going to have to get a pos up but obv easier in ur own system defence. I dont like idea of more pos mods but something like that which would allow multiple titans to be still useful (lets be honest numbers are only ever going to increase) while making 10 titans per system less of an efficient use of these ships.
RogueWing Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:21:00 - [29] Edited by: RogueWing on 31/03/2008 01:23:37 Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. Can't pin down a Titan with a HID?????? Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. Fly better ships than T1 fitted crap. Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You're Dreads and Carriers can't tank Titans? Then you don't know how to fit/fight them properly. Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot jump through a gate. If you know a Titan is on the other side of the gate, then you just send in HID's to tackle him. Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot jump bridge in. Then perhaps you should protect your jumpbridges better.....perhaps try putting up cynojammers insystem. I hear they are impossible to take down with Battleships. Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot log in. You mean you refuse to log in. Then that is your fault for stomping your feet and throwing a tamtrum like a little poofy girl. Originally by: FERRET MAN You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. You can always go whine about it....oh, never mind, you seem to know how to do that already. If goons are giving you "respect" on CAOD, you pretty much know what you just did was a pile of .
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Yuki Nagato You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed. And what are your caps doing while getting doomsdayed? Twiddling their thumbs? I don't own a Titan, but won't 20 dreads in siege pretty much melt a Titan in a minute or two? Titans are very expensive, time-consuming and logistics consuming to produce while dreads are very easy to replace. And like a lot of things in EVE, the counter to a Titan is ..... your own Titan. When both sides have 2+ Titans on the fied, neither side can safely use non-capital ships so it is pretty even. Now multiple Titans sitting on a cynojammer, yeah that is really broken. But you have to admit, there are a lot of lame mechanics that have to deal with capital ships and capital ship blobs. Now CCP can either nerf cap ships or maybe introduce a new sub-capital ship class that excels at killing capital ships. Either way, it needs to be carefully balanced so don't do any holding of the breath. Now a simple 1 DD per hr per system sounds like an easy solution, but if you built 8 Titans and subsequent officer gear and alts to fly them you'd be pretty ****ed.

Nicky Rostu Fading Star Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:50:00 - [31] Originally by: RogueWing ... That doesn't sound politically motivated at all This isn't CAOD. The mobile station idea is nice, but I imagine it'd be really hard to implement. How about making Titans closer to being tier-2 dreads, as they can already fit weapons? Maybe give them enough firepower out of siege to destroy a sieged dread in a reasonable time, and a better tank too, and they'd be fearsome in capital battles but less useful against support fleets. They should not be a one-size-fits-all push button receive killmail device, that's for certain.
Katana Seiko Die LIGA	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:53:00 - [32] Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:04:00 - [33] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 02:06:35 Quote: But you have to admit, there are a lot of lame mechanics that have to deal with capital ships and capital ship blobs. Now CCP can either nerf cap ships or maybe introduce a new sub-capital ship class that excels at killing capital ships. Either way, it needs to be carefully balanced so don't do any holding of the breath. Now a simple 1 DD per hr per system sounds like an easy solution, but if you built 8 Titans and subsequent officer gear and alts to fly them you'd be pretty ****ed. They tried to balance titans and moms with Hictors. Doesn't seem like it's working out, as supercaps are still produced much faster than they're being destroyed. Also, even if nerfs aren't popular they're sometimes necessary and need to be executed with an iron fist. In case of titans my reasoning is that subcapital ships, and in particular sub BS ships never required the introduction of dd's in the first place. Frigates and cruisers were not overly useful in fleet combat but still had a place. Why add a strong counter to them when the means to deal with those ships existed and worked ? It makes no sense. So why did they add dd's? It's probably meant more to make flying a titan exciting, otherwise who would enjoy flying one? I don't think they thought this through very well though. Hictors just prove the point - the supposed anti-titan ship is easily countered by simply bringing more titans, whereas bringing more Hictors won't do anything.
Draygo Korvan	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Katana Seiko Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? yes. But being the ship with the biggest amount of base HP (well deserved) it will be the last ship to get popped in a situation where a lot of doomsdays are dropped at once (besides perhaps something completely faction tanked). I'd like titans to be true mobile stations. Stations you can put your ships in, stations with a clonebay which you would wake up in after you die. When the pilot logs off his titan should stay in space. (At a pos, or maybe a 'pos' mode, when the titan logs off it appears 1 au from any spacial object such as a moon/station/gate so they can never be on gates (ewarp distance away)) As far as damage you can introduce titan class guns to replace a doomsday. -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
A Squirrel BladeRunners INC	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:52:00 - [35] One thing about titans is that nobody really had a problem with them during th war. They were being destroyed in production, being hunted down while their pilots were offline. Now the war is all but over goons is in empire annoying the people there. The north is starting to fall apart and fight each other. and MC is taking up contracts on crappy allainces. What does this all mean, more ships of all types flying around. the same number of ships are being produced, but no nearly as many are being destroyed. What does all this have to do with DDs and so many titans in one place, well if BoB was still fighting other people who had titans across three fronts they might have them spread out instead of in one place protecting one system. Am I calling for war to restart, no bt without the constant destruction of ships more and more titans, moms, dreads, and carriers will exist, and more people will being complaining about them being over powered.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 04:31:00 - [36] Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. Yes, you still have the jump bridge and stuff, but that's just pathetic for such an obscenely expensive ship. The real problem is not titans, it's POSes and the broken mechanics surrounding them. Right now, the only worthwhile strategic objective in EVE is killing POSes and putting up your own. Sure, roaming gangs and stuff are fun, but to take territory and build your empire, you get to deal with POS warfare. Now, the problem with POS warfare is that it completely kills the "hit them where they're weak" approach to dealing with titans. Since you have a reinforced timer (necessary to prevent even bigger problems), all of those titan pilots know exactly where to be to drop a doomsday. Instead of being spread out to protect various objectives, they can set their alarm clocks, call in sick from work, and all be sitting there waiting when the fleet shows up. And it only gets worse when you have an opponent down to a small region of space. Now there are so few targets (all in titan jump range) that even if you reinforce multiple towers at once, the titans can all come to blow away your fleet, whichever POS you actually try to finish off. Let's not forget that goons pretty much won this war... it's kind of interesting how silent everyone was about "OMG BROKEN TITANS" when BoB was losing region after region and the titans were doing nothing to stop it. So yeah, fix POS warfare, not titans.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.03.31 04:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Merin Ryskin it's kind of interesting how silent everyone was about "OMG BROKEN TITANS" when BoB was losing region after region and the titans were doing nothing to stop it. So yeah, fix POS warfare, not titans. yeah bring back remote DDs tbh ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Delezar	Posted - 2008.03.31 05:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: LukeDS there are ways to kill them NO, THERE ISN'T. Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario: Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again. You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away. You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed. You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed. Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang. Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support. The game is BROKEN. If that is all you can come up with, you deserve to lose. Do you really expect to win against titans with a tactic that is exactly the tactic they are set up to beat? Lack of imagination and tactics is not a flaw of the game.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 06:22:00 - [39] Quote: If that is all you can come up with, you deserve to lose. Do you really expect to win against titans with a tactic that is exactly the tactic they are set up to beat? Lack of imagination and tactics is not a flaw of the game. Put up or shut up.
Alyx Alyn	Posted - 2008.03.31 06:49:00 - [40] The big problem with Titans is that they kill things to be honest. They're a huge ship that does actual damage points to other ships, and that's a problem because it means they will always stack favorably. The Doomsday needs to be modified so it can't actually kill a ship - i.e. it needs the remaining ships around to actually finish off what gets hit. Some type of proportional damage as a % of remaining HP would be excellent, because then Titans would begin to stack unfavorably. It would also solve the problem of the doomsdays and lag to an extent - lag DD'ing a fleet wouldn't work, since you wouldn't get any kills. Finally, this would also orient Titans more towards being a capital combat asset - a doomsday that takes 50% of the tankable HP of a capital away has just done a lot more damage then the same to a battleship. So, PROPOSAL: Change doomsdays so they remove 33% of a ships total (struct+armor+shields) HP. The damage a DD does should be scaled by the % of this value on the ship at the time - so a Titan can pretty much never DD a ship below say, 50-70% total HP (i.e. successive DD's do less and less damage). RESULT: Titans in laggy situations do not score cheap kills. Titans REQUIRE support to get kills. Titans become a big capital fleet asset, but also useful against sub-capital fleets. MULITPLE Titans become a liability in groups of more then 2 or so since their main weapon is ineffective (they can DD all day and the enemy won't be effected). CLOSING NOTES: 33% was picked so a ships tankable hitpoints get removed - possibly scripts for taking it from armor or shields first would be in order. REALISM has nothing to do with this - it's purely a game decision and I'm sure we can imagine some reason there weapon would work this way (nanite storm, fuses armor plates, adaptive repairs whatever).

PeHD0M Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.31 06:57:00 - [41] Edited by: PeHD0M on 31/03/2008 06:57:59 There are only two thing that can stop EVE from becoming "supercaps online": 1. nerfing titans.. motherships... carriers, than BS and so on.. not a very popular method . 2. crew on ships. From RP point of view i'm realy hard to beleive that some allience was able to recruit for war SO MUCH people to operate 8 titans. Just think about it... major empires has only 2-3. So i sugest to enter into EVE some simulation of human resources (recruiting population on stations and planets). Or there is a more simple solution: limit the number of operational titans\mother per one allience. So you can build them as much as you can, but not be able to fly them all simultaneously.
Draahk Chimera Monopropellant Fools	Posted - 2008.03.31 09:16:00 - [42] I think you guys are joking. Supercaps isnt "going to" destroy 0.0, they already have. Its been supercaps online for months now. Small gang pvp has been impossible for a very long time. Ive left 0.0 after 2.5 years to live in empire and soon I might leave the game all toghether. You all come up with highly theorethical ways to do pvp against supercaps, and in the end none of it work outside EFT and inside TQ. Things like lag, a key character warping to the wrong gate, most people in the fleet not having enough isk to officer fit their pvp ships etc are all realities that you should know of if you have ever done pvp.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:09:00 - [43] That's a pretty good idea, Alyx Alyn. But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more. More titan use = more battles = more titan deaths (hopefully) Either that or you can give the DD an exp radius/exp velocity like bombs which would be pretty gross. It would be a nerf to Titans so I'd throw it a another bonus or two like dread siege mode damage or other good fleet bonuses. I don't see how you can defend the DD in it's current form, it was fine when it was somewhat rare and only a few Titans existed, but now, ehhhh. Oh yeah and POSs are a huge problem and yes we need Starbase 3.0 asap but by that time we'll have 20 man titan gangs roaming 0.0 :)
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:18:00 - [44] Quote: But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more. Only means it takes 2-3 times more titans than before. So yeas it will help but the fundamental problem, dd scaling remains.
Nomore Telindus	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:08:00 - [45] Originally by: Traeon Quote: But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more. Only means it takes 2-3 times more titans than before. So yeas it will help but the fundamental problem, dd scaling remains. Damage and Tank, Tank and Damage. Again and again. What about a different approach? Change the DD to something non lethal. E.g.: -Amarr: neutralize 60k cap (lethal to caps) -Minmatar: 90% web for 5 mins (lethal to nanogangs) -Caldari: jam for 5 mins (lethal to BSs) -Gallente: jam drones for 5 mins (lethal to carriers) And instead of the traditional smartbomb style, change the DD to fire off 130-180 degrees from the front of the ship. (with this change, titans can move with the support) So, with a bubble and support, a gang with 4 titans can still vaporize any blobs, but can't do that alone. p.s: english is not my main language.
0mega	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:16:00 - [46] I think it would offer more options if doomsdays in their current form were replaced with racial special abilities, each affecting the whole grid. Avatars would set off a neutralizing burst performing a large cap drain on all ships in range. Very useful to stop BS fleets using their weapons or dreadsnoughts from tanking well. Making this based on current cap percentage would stacking-nerf it from the start. Leviathans would have a high-powered ECM pulse breaking all locks. Great for protecting capital fleets from sub-capitals. Ragnaroks would set off a webifying effect slowing all ships on the grid for X seconds. Enemy tacklers become less effective and drones are pinned down. An the Erebus could perform a warp-scrambling effect keeping all nearby ships pinned for 30-60 seconds. Great for ambushes and mopping up a hostile fleet. This now encourages tactical use of different racial titans, and means the support a fleet rather than replace one. Doomsdays would no longer stack, nor be capable of wiping out a fleet with the push of a button. Laggy battles would result in a fairer result as both sides become equally affected. Titan pilots will still have their doomsday skills and modules and be able to contribute heavily to a battle, they just won't decide it.
Kerkar	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:47:00 - [47] Titans are fine just fail less. If you are worried bait the doomsday out of them. I was flying with bob when RA doomsdayed us. We knew it would come and as soon as the titan popped in i aligned and shock got out. In my TI fit stabber. Titans are fine please leave them like this. Also the OP says "No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays" which im gonna just say is "******s". Been hit with Doomsdays on Sisi when in a carrier and its like oh, i lost a little shield*. Bait doomsdays, it becomes tactical. They can only use them once an hour. Or just defend cyno jammers.... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
0mega	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Kerkar Titans are fine please leave them like this. Also the OP says "No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays" which im gonna just say is "******s". Been hit with Doomsdays on Sisi when in a carrier and its like oh, i lost a little shield*. Carriers aren't sub-capitals.
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 11:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Traeon Quote: But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more. Only means it takes 2-3 times more titans than before. So yeas it will help but the fundamental problem, dd scaling remains. You mistake my meaning - the idea was that doomsdays would only ever take away a fraction of a ships health - they'd never do absolute damage. So a full DD hits for 33% of all hitpoints, but the one after that only takes away some smaller fraction and so on up to some type of maximum like 50-70% of a ships total HP. The idea is no amount of titans can ever actually make a ship explode from DD'ing and beyond DD number 2-3 they would be doing negligible.
Plave Okice Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.03.31 12:10:00 - [50] I like the racial non HP damage DD ideas, still an incredible weapon without just making things go pop. Alot of people seem to be missing the anti DD argument, a DD alone is not particulary overpowered IMO, and thats not the point of the argument against, the point is how common they're becoming. 5, 6, 7 or more titans with DD's on grid is undefeatable, no question about it. It's not so mnuch the issue of today, but the issue for the future, What about another years time? When the big alliances can field 15 or 20 on a grid? It will happen, how many DD's to pop a carrier? I think the number is 25, it has been worked out. People thought battleships wouldn't be that common, people thought carriers wouldn't be that common, same for motherships, hell, just look at how common motherships have become, titans will become much more common, I think there's around 50 in game now, certainly 40+, how will you attack systems defended by 20 titans? Adapt or die is the common phrase I believe, there is no adapt to that, there is only die. Red Vs Blue

Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 12:41:00 - [51] What I would do with titans: Give them 8 highslots with turrets/launchers. - 600%-1000% damage bonus to capital weapons, no tracking penalty (like the dreadnaught siege bonus) - Tweak cap regen so they can run 3 reppers indefinitely when properly equipped with officermods, and give them the dreadnaught siege bonus. They should have a form of siegemode where they do burn a lot of fuel, but are not immobilized like dreads. - Give them 3m m3 cargobay - Give them 50m m3 ship hangar array - Let them field up to 25 fighters/drones at the same time with a bay that can hold 500 fighters. - Give them double the bonuses of the racial fleet command ship in terms of warfare links. - Remove DD. That would be a titan that can support an invasion all by itself. It would have the best defences of any capital ship. It would be able to do serious damage to enemy capitals and still defend itself against BS as well due to the lack of tracking penalty. It would be a beast to take down and a big bonus to any fleet to have around. But it would be much more acceptable than anything with a DD.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Delezar Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: LukeDS there are ways to kill them NO, THERE ISN'T. Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario: Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again. You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away. You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed. You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed. Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang. Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support. The game is BROKEN. If that is all you can come up with, you deserve to lose. Do you really expect to win against titans with a tactic that is exactly the tactic they are set up to beat? Lack of imagination and tactics is not a flaw of the game. There is no other possible tactic for engaging Titans. He listed everything there is. Well, other than breaking into the Titan pilot's house and smashing his computer. Or do you follow the same school of thought as that idiot ISD guy who suggested nano dreads? Quote: [ 2006.08.25 22:30:46 ] fire 59 > mate, im 230 and 6 ft 3, half caste and train every day
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Kerkar Titans are fine just fail less. If you are worried bait the doomsday out of them. I was flying with bob when RA doomsdayed us. We knew it would come and as soon as the titan popped in i aligned and shock got out. In my TI fit stabber. Titans are fine please leave them like this. Also the OP says "No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays" which im gonna just say is "******s". Been hit with Doomsdays on Sisi when in a carrier and its like oh, i lost a little shield*. Bait doomsdays, it becomes tactical. They can only use them once an hour. Or just defend cyno jammers.... so many things wrong in this post. Let me go through them one by one. - You're talking about a single titan, while the complaints are about multiple titans. - Yes you can in some cases bait the doomsday, but when there are several titans they can always leave 2-3 on standby and just use the remaining ones to dd freely. If something happens, the titans on standby can always come in and annihilate any subcapital fleet. As BoB you should know this, since your titan pilots are using dd's against almost everything now, even against 2-3 frigs, simply because they can and are not putting themselves at a real risk because there's other titans to cover them. There's no way this was intended. - You're talking about avoiding a dd by warping out. Yes you can avoid dd, but not reliably, especially in laggy situations, and only if the titan is coming for you. If the titan is defending something there's no way to avoid the dd in anything that's big enough to be a threat to said titan. - Carriers aren't subcapitals.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:56:00 - [54] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 14:02:04 Originally by: Yuki Nagato Give me a heavy interdictor that can tank five doomsdays in rapid succession. No officer mods. The issue is that support fleets are rendered USELESS. Do you not see an issue with the fact that a guy flying a battleship has to warp in and wait to get quad-doomsdayed, and that's his ONLY role under the current mechanics? You're a terrible troll. All you are looking for is a way to kill titans easily and without taking losses and that is just not realistic tbh. There is nothing stopping you from having other tacklers on grid but cloaked up out of range of the DDD ready to warp in if one of you tacklers gets popped by it, so multiple titans are not untacklable at all. Your capitals can easily tank those DDD and they are the real threat to the titan while your support fleet can also position its self outside the DDD range but inside the range of other ships they can shoot at. You just do not want to risk losing your capitals if you screw things up in planning the assault. All you are doing is looking for a nerf so a low sp and imgame skill blob can kill titans instead of correctly positioning 230+ ranged snipers, dreads and carriers plus the rest of your your forces correctly. Go back to empire or pvp school nerfs are not needed just ability and that is something GOONS have always lacked.
Angelic Eviaran University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:58:00 - [55] Originally by: FERRET MAN Edited by: FERRET MAN on 30/03/2008 21:05:20 How is this enriching to the game? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0803/bob_waiting_in_qy6.jpg How does this promote combat or warfare? http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7665/titansor5un4.jpg The game is broken. Nothing can counter eight Titans. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. Remove the doomsday before this game gets ground into dust like it almost was this time last year. Its not like the have 8 titans in every system. Why not just take over every system except the one with the titans? Just spread out a bit and bleed them?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 14:36:00 - [56] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 14:41:13 Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: RogueWing Can't pin down a Titan with a HID?????? Give me a heavy interdictor that can tank five doomsdays in rapid succession. No officer mods. You do know that there's no rule against sending in more HIC's after the first 4 DD's has gone off?? Another thread... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.03.31 14:37:00 - [57] lol @ goons crying on the forum because their opponent has the capability to build a load of titans.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 14:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Its not like the have 8 titans in every system. Why not just take over every system except the one with the titans? Just spread out a bit and bleed them? Not that easy when the defender has a jumpbridge system that allows them to move to any other station system in 1-3 jumps when attacking fleets have to go much further.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 14:47:00 - [59] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 14:41:13 Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: RogueWing Can't pin down a Titan with a HID?????? Give me a heavy interdictor that can tank five doomsdays in rapid succession. No officer mods. You do know that there's no rule against sending in more HIC's after the first 4 DD's has gone off?? Another thread... And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 14:57:00 - [60] Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. I don't think many titan pilots will warp their ship into that, especially if there's lag (which there will be). And don't give me the BS about cyno-jammers. It's been conclusively demonstrated this weekend that a cyno-jammer protected by an alliance with access to multiple titans can't be defended by them. Why? Because no alliance can have X titans online 23/7, and it only takes 5 minutes or so to melt a jammer with a proper fleet. After that its purely a matter of having the will and skill to hold the system until you've killed the POS. Also conclusively demonstrated this weekend. Who's winning in this instance is determined the same way as all other wars in EVE has ever been. The party whose morale broke first is the one who lost, simply because their people and allies (incl. more titan pilots than BoB have), didn't bother showing up. Titans had little or nothing to do with that. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:02:00 - [61] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:05:59 Originally by: Kerfira You do know that there's no rule against sending in more HIC's after the first 4 DD's has gone off?? Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. Keep sending more in ffs your trying to kill several multi multi billion isk ships do you think that it should not cost you a quite few if not a lot of tacklers????. Originally by: Malachon Draco And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? If you have all your pieces in place your caps should have the titans locked and so preventing any cloaking and its not like these things are interceptors that can turn or warp out easily especially if your carrier group has it locked, nuet and also gives it a regular bump.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:04:00 - [62] Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. ..i..
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. I don't think many titan pilots will warp their ship into that, especially if there's lag (which there will be). And don't give me the BS about cyno-jammers. It's been conclusively demonstrated this weekend that a cyno-jammer protected by an alliance with access to multiple titans can't be defended by them. Why? Because no alliance can have X titans online 23/7, and it only takes 5 minutes or so to melt a jammer with a proper fleet. After that its purely a matter of having the will and skill to hold the system until you've killed the POS. Also conclusively demonstrated this weekend. Who's winning in this instance is determined the same way as all other wars in EVE has ever been. The party whose morale broke first is the one who lost, simply because their people and allies (incl. more titan pilots than BoB have), didn't bother showing up. Titans had little or nothing to do with that. CAOD is that way -> Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. The point I am trying to make is that the situation will only get worse. Yes, an alliance didn't have coverage in QY6, which of course had nothing to do with the fact that its 80 friggin jumps from their homespace. That does not change the fact that a cynojammer covered by multiple titans is practically unkillable. And if the current number is not enough, then people will build more and more and more until there are enough and eventually alliances will be able to protect their cynojammers with titans around the clock. This is an issue that is not going to get less bad over time, it will get worse. And the complaints will get worse until either CCP caves in or people mass-migrate to other games where its not so biased in favour of huge epeen waving weapons that kill the fun for all the normal players.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. --
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. Now, let me see. It takes something like 35+ DD's to kill dreads. That means that the side with the titans are committing ~30 times the value of the dreads. Fair enough they should win. Of.c. then you warp in another 10 titans of your own, press the button and DD those 40 damaged titans into wrecks. There's always a counter. It's just a matter of whether you're prepared to take the risk. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:13:00 - [66] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:15:35 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:15:00 - [67] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. Yes, but ask yourself, if we continue on the current trend, is it a matter of 'if' it will happen or 'when' it will happen?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:17:00 - [68] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:17:51 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. Yes, but ask yourself, if we continue on the current trend, is it a matter of 'if' it will happen or 'when' it will happen? Then fix it "when" its broke not before, but then this is about killing bob not about a overpowered ship. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:19:00 - [69] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 15:22:13 Originally by: Malachon Draco Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. So what you're basically saying is that I'm not allowed to use REAL examples about how titans are used in EVE, but your scare scenario (which are not supported how things actually happens in EVE) is to be accepted as the holy writ? You fail a lot with that argument! Titans are not a 'problem' in-game! They may prevent people from taking systems they think they're 'entitled' to take, but the real reason they can't take them is usually that they're not prepared to risk anything to do so (ie. the old "we have more players so we must win!" way of thinking). How titans are used these days also indicates they won't become a problem, at least for a long time. Titans are not cyno'ing around in 0.0 DD'ing small gangs, DD's are very rarely used at all (as I already demonstrated to you). Your scenario is a scare scenario with no basis in how things actually happen in EVE. Overcoming a titan supported defence is a challenge, multiple titans make it a bigger one, but not an insurmountable one. I like a game that sets high challenges. Only real way to sift the men from the mice. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:26:00 - [70] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco Stop already with the continued referrals to current events, like I have said a dozen times, I don't care. So what you're basically saying is that I'm not allowed to use REAL examples about how titans are used in EVE, but your scare scenario (which are not supported how things actually happens in EVE) is to be accepted as the holy writ? You fail a lot with that argument! Titans are not a 'problem' in-game! They may prevent people from taking systems they think they're 'entitled' to take, but the real reason they can't take them is usually that they're not prepared to risk anything to do so (ie. the old "we have more players so we must win!" way of thinking). How titans are used these days also indicates they won't become a problem, at least for a long time. Titans are not cyno'ing around in 0.0 DD'ing small gangs, DD's are very rarely used at all (as I already demonstrated to you). Your scenario is a scare scenario with no basis in how things actually happen in EVE. No, you can use current situation as an argument. I.e. saying, they are currently not being used like that is an argument that is valid. Saying: you are noobs and you can't defeat BoB is not an argument, its an ad hominem which is not relevant in any real discussion. Especially since I am not in the business of fighting BoB. Basically we have a debate with two valid positions (valid as in 'adhering to the basic requirements of being a reasoned position, not necessarily true). You're saying: It hasn't happened yet, so it won't happen in the future. I am saying: Considering the trend in the number of titans built and being built it will be a big problem in the future. That is the discussion. I disagree with you because I see no reason why the current situation should be indicative in any way of what happens in the future in terms of behaviour, and I have given you examples of how motherships were used until they were nerfed with HICtors. The trend to overuse of supercapitals exists in my opinion, because people were doing it with moms, and I see no reason to believe the same won't happen with titans.

Draygo Korvan	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:34:00 - [71] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 15:15:35 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco And what after the second 4? Or the third 4? ANd after that, the first 4 again as their DD will have recycled. And I guess there is no way a titan will just warp out or cloak? Ehem, you'll of.c. also have your 30+ dreads on the field. What will you do when a single alliance has enough titans to instapop those 30 dreads with the collective push of a button? We will get there. I suppose that then it maybe an issue but for now that cannot be done, so if it ain't broke yet it don't need fixing yet does it. How many DDD does it actually take to kill a 70%ish resistance tanked dread in siege?. Moros with Resists: EMP/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive Shield: 12%/29.6%/47.2%/64.8% Armor: 84.5%/74.8%/74.8%/65.1% Hull: 60%/60%/60%/60% Shield HP: 195313 Armor HP: 234275 Hull HP: 273438 Effective HP of a moros on an all level V character (in relavent skills) 1, 931,123 Level 4 Doomsday raw damage (one damage type): 65625.00 Level 5 Doomsday raw damage: 70312.50 Number of level 4 doomsdays to instapop that moros: 30 (29.4266) Number of level 5 doomsdays to instapop that moros: 28 (27.4649) -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Malachon Draco ..... and I see no reason to believe the same won't happen with titans. So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? Especially when there isn't any real indications that it will, that'd be a pretty silly thing to do. I'm fairly certain CCP are monitoring the situation and will take steps IF things become unbalanced. This hasn't happened yet, nor is the argument "More titans are being built day by day" an argument it will. Titans are still dreadfully vulnerable, but unless an enemy is willing to face the RISK in trying to take down a titan (or more), which might include loosing BS fleets and/or multiple caps, they're safe. This'll only last until the next titan pilot gets a little bit too***y though..... It ain't broke, so it doesn't need fixing! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Before supercapitals everything was working fine, every ship had a place, some were barely, if at all, worth bringing (newbies in cheap t1 ships), some were very valuable (dreads and carriers). Then somebody at CCP thought subcapitals should be excluded from the deciding fleet fights.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Before supercapitals everything was working fine, every ship had a place, some were barely, if at all, worth bringing (newbies in cheap t1 ships), some were very valuable (dreads and carriers). Then somebody at CCP thought subcapitals should be excluded from the deciding fleet fights. I think that is about positioning your forces and using your head, but unfortunately ppl want all the work done for them to beat these ships and to just warp in close and hit f1-f8 and watch it eventually go pop without losing some ships to tackle them or risking some of there own high value assets to kill them.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:00:00 - [75] Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Originally by: Traeon Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:18:00 - [76] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill. Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. And as far as the titan stopping skill less blobbing i say it does because if forces ppl to maneuver there fleets and assets instead of just dropping them on a target and hitting f1-f8.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:27:00 - [78] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 16:28:49 Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill. The simple action of pressing that button doesn't require skill, agreed. Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent FC! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy, and that the punishment for failure is a potential dead titan! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:28:00 - [79] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:29:10 Quote: Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. Did it cross your mind that perhaps there was more than just numbers involved there? Anyway, in my experience numbers alone don't win. Quote: Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy! I know it's not that simple, but i'm sure it's easier than coordinating a whole fleet.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:35:00 - [80] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 16:35:56 Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy! I know it's not that simple, but i'm sure it's easier than coordinating a whole fleet. You'll be managing your own fleet at the same time (unless you're stupid enough to operate a titan without support). The titan is added complexity as it comes on top of that. Add that your opponent probably also has one or more titans (at least they should if they want to play with the big boys), and you add a new layer of complexity to FC'ing. Complexity in a game is good! Big rewards should also come with big risks. Let the better player win and the less good player cry! EVE at its best (ref Wranglers comment quoted below)! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Traeon Quote: Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. Did it cross your mind that perhaps there was more than just numbers involved there? Anyway, in my experience numbers alone don't win. It did cross my mind but now that the numbers are greatly reduced and BOB is pushing forwards and taking back space id say that the answer is very much "yes" to the fact it was just sheer numbers that gained all that space. I my experience "numbers" alone do not win either but a "shag load of numbers" do and did.
L70Rogue	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Zagum Darkfin Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. Yeah of course a BoB member is annoyed that there spawned titans (t2 bpos) will probably be nerfed again. oh boohoo
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:54:00 - [83] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Zagum Darkfin Just because Goonies fly Tech1 crap does not mean the rest of us should or would. Quit trying to change the game because you are too lazy to adapt. Cry more please. Yeah of course a BoB member is annoyed that there spawned titans (t2 bpos) will probably be nerfed again. oh boohoo I thought it was a sabre and a t2 ammo bpo (wow real game changing isk value) that got took off them.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:19:00 - [84] Can we please leave CAOD out of this? This isn't about BoB. Many alliances have this capability now: Morsus Mihi has at least four, Red Alliance has at least four, BoB has eight, and this will only get worse as people realize the only way to hold your enemies hands behind their backs is to build as many Titans as possible. What's the use of subcapitals aside from suicide cannon fodder? Should territory wars only revolve around people suiciding entire capital fleets against each other in a game of server roulette as the node decides who gets to control their ship and who simply dies unable to see the name of the system they're in? How does one even engage a fleet of ships with subcapitals when any area around it is a deadzone of 500k+ HP multi-damage-type alpha? "Attacking other targets" doesn't work because reinforced timers dictate when engagements happen, and you only have 48 hours to work with so it's not like you can 'sacrifice 300m ISK pawns' to attack other systems either. The game is broken when the highest class of shiptype below capitals is seen as nothing more than a frigate as far as strategic importance goes. Take CAOD out of here, please.
Megan Maynard	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:34:00 - [85] Titan kill lag, I just wish that drones and wrecks would pop faster. A giant field of wrecks and drones does just as much to lag as anything else. Why should a ship that costs 50 bil be easy to kill? Bob's been in Delve for how long? It should take a while to root them out. They've had 2+ years to fortify it. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:46:00 - [86] People like Kerfira will scream the loudest for a Titan nerf in 6 months (if he's not a BoB alt) when (if at all) they're trying to move to 0.0. Obviously lots of the arguments here are politically motivated, and people are either too stupid or deliberately unwilling to see the point of this argument. In 6 months, Alliances will field multiple titans at will. BoB, with the current game mechanics, will survive and field 20+ titans, if not more. There is nothing to counter a titan blob, except another Titan blob. Subcapital fleets have no purpose anymore, except for suiciding against Cynojammers, so that the Titan and Capital blob can get into the system. If that Cynojammer is defended by multiple Titans, well, good luck. EVE 0.0 game mechanics are horribly broken. In a year, Titan blobs will be able to doomsday away Capital fleets, obsoleting even them. EVE right now is Caps Online. In a year, it's Titans Online. The alliance with the most Titans wins. It's an arms race right now. Also, I should save the responses to threads like these. Once Goonswarm is able to field multiple Titans at will too, I'll start throwing them around too.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:51:00 - [87] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 31/03/2008 17:54:12 I'm not saying Titans should be easy to kill and I haven't said that at all since the conception of this thread and nobody has except the people screaming "THEY SHOULDNT BE EASY TO KILL". Ideally, Titans should never be put in harms way. Why? Because THEY SHOULDN'T BE TACTICAL WEAPONS. They should be strategic weapons for moving an alliance around. They should be mobile outposts that allow alliances to move around and set up shop with a huge store of ships. They should allow an alliance a greater ability of jumping into a new ship and fighting. Instead, they wipe away entire fleets of ships, nullifying hours of work by the average EVE player through a single button push. Nobody was complaining six months ago because this kind of stuff simply wasn't happening. Quad-DD's were considered something to be off in the future that nobody wanted to think about. At most you had two Titans in the same system, and if you had enough support that would nullify two. But now groups of three or four are considered "standard", while groups of five and up are becoming increasingly popular among the richer alliances. This is game-breaking. A single Titan is defenseless, but with five or six buddies he's invincible.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:03:00 - [88] Oh, and good luck to any new alliance trying to establish itself in 0.0 space in 6 months. You'll need it.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:12:00 - [89] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 18:15:42 Multiple titans + cap support + conventional ship support are not invincible unless you want to kill them without the risk of taking heavy losses in doing so. The problem is that the whiners are not willing to risk or take those losses so they are crying to ccp(again). Originally by: Kingwood Oh, and good luck to any new alliance trying to establish itself in 0.0 space in 6 months. You'll need it. Well i suppose they could nap their way to a home in 0.0 its how you did it.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:24:00 - [90] Oh hey, I see you were in QY6 yesterday too. Soz, since you're obviously an able FC, tell me how to take out 9 titans and 110 Caps in a system with 700 in local. (Without me having to bring in 10 titans and 120 Caps). Good job bringing CAOD into here.

Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:24:00 - [91] Why do we even care... With a bit of luck in 6 months a better MMO will come out and people will leave these guys behind wondering where the **** everyone in 0.0 went and they can feel uber again farming noobs. Just sad for CCP to let their game go down the drain due to one design failure, but thats not our problem.
Hey You	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:33:00 - [92] Why don't you threadnought about it... Oh wait... __________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. We Ride Together We Die Together We Few, We Happy Few...
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:35:00 - [93] Originally by: Hey You Why don't you threadnought about it... Oh wait... Why dont you contact your dev buddies on MSN over it? Oh wait... Two can play that game.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:38:00 - [94] I'd like a few Titans spawned for me. Kthx
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 19:46:00 - [95] Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. --
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:03:00 - [96] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. So with all the titans the coalition has why do we not see their kill boards full of BOB fleet kills?.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:07:00 - [97] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. So with all the titans the coalition has why do we not see their kill boards full of BOB fleet kills?. Cynojammers, duh.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:08:00 - [98] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. So with all the titans the coalition has why do we not see their kill boards full of BOB fleet kills?. Because they are ******* about elsewhere and ignoring BoB. So you can't draw the conclusion that titans are not overpowered because they didn't kill many bobbits, since they are not in the warzone or anywhere near it. Now lets get back on topic. Why do you think that titan DDs would not pose a threat in the reasonably near future? So far all I see is a continueing shift towards more supercapitals, making the game less accessible for normal corps and players. What makes you think this shift will not continue? I'd really be interested in your honest opinion.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:12:00 - [99] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 20:21:47 Originally by: maralt So with all the titans the coalition has why do we not see their kill boards full of BOB fleet kills?. Originally by: Karina Bellac Cynojammers, duh. Like the one in qy6?, duh. Originally by: Malachon Draco Because they are ******* about elsewhere and ignoring BoB. So you can't draw the conclusion that titans are not overpowered because they didn't kill many bobbits, since they are not in the warzone or anywhere near it. So because the coalition is not willing to risk there larger expensive ships they are looking to nerf them instead making skilless blob spamming the only effective style of space taking and holding warfare in eve. At the moment to kill multiple titans and take out its support you need a well organized fleet and total and complete planning, timing and yes the thing that has stopped the coalition time and again the need to risk a lot of high value assets to kill a lot of high value assets. Grow a pair and get some good FC's.
Crohnx Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:16:00 - [100] WHINE MORE PLS!

Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:17:00 - [101] I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:20:00 - [102] Originally by: Dianabolic I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Stop turning this into COAD FFS. This is not about BoB. I know Goons are doing stupid things, I don't give a ****. This is not about BoB even though you seem to believe everything HAS TO BE ABOUT YOU. It is not, get over yourself. Tell me Diana, how do you see 0.0 in a year from now. Can I get a prediction from you how many titans there will be and how that will affect 0.0 gameplay?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:24:00 - [103] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Stop turning this into COAD FFS. This is not about BoB. I know Goons are doing stupid things, I don't give a ****. This is not about BoB even though you seem to believe everything HAS TO BE ABOUT YOU. It is not, get over yourself. Tell me Diana, how do you see 0.0 in a year from now. Can I get a prediction from you how many titans there will be and how that will affect 0.0 gameplay? If its not a problem yet but will be in a year how about you STFU about it for 12 months, oh yes thats right getting them nerfed now will hurt the guys who reamed out ascn.
Rysith Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:26:00 - [104] Originally by: Malachon Draco What I would do with titans: Give them 8 highslots with turrets/launchers. - 600%-1000% damage bonus to capital weapons, no tracking penalty (like the dreadnaught siege bonus) - Tweak cap regen so they can run 3 reppers indefinitely when properly equipped with officermods, and give them the dreadnaught siege bonus. They should have a form of siegemode where they do burn a lot of fuel, but are not immobilized like dreads. - Give them 3m m3 cargobay - Give them 50m m3 ship hangar array - Let them field up to 25 fighters/drones at the same time with a bay that can hold 500 fighters. - Give them double the bonuses of the racial fleet command ship in terms of warfare links. - Remove DD. That would be a titan that can support an invasion all by itself. It would have the best defences of any capital ship. It would be able to do serious damage to enemy capitals and still defend itself against BS as well due to the lack of tracking penalty. It would be a beast to take down and a big bonus to any fleet to have around. But it would be much more acceptable than anything with a DD. Similar to what I would suggest (admittedly with no titan experience whatsoever. However, I would make three changes to what you suggested: 1) No local tank bonus/cap regen for three reppers. Instead, give a bonus to damage repaired from remote reppers, so that a carrier remote repping a titan repairs more than the same carrier remote repping a battleship. 2) Rather than removing the DD, change it to a single-target massive damage weapon. Enough firepower to severely damage a cap ship, kind of a waste if used on anything smaller. Very low tracking. 3) Remove the massive dronage. Maybe space for 5 fighters. They aren't carriers/motherships, and should not attempt to replace them. This sets titans as the centerpieces of a fleet, capable of neutralizing enemy cap ships and significantly boosting their own fleet, but only with a support fleet around to deal with subcapitals and keep the titan repaired. A single titan, or even a few, without a support fleet should be an expensive mistake. A titan with a support fleet should be capable of plowing through an enemy capital fleet while boosting its own fleet enough for them to take down the opposing support.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:27:00 - [105] Originally by: maralt If its not a problem yet but will be in a year how about you STFU about it for 12 months, oh yes thats right getting them nerfed now will hurt the guys who reamed out ascn. Umm, are you saying BoB can't beat Goonswarm without titans? The rest of the Coalition went home, remember...
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:29:00 - [106] The doomsday was a dumb idea and entirely contrary to the original idea of the Titan (mobile station/fleet command ship and flashy status symbol) but its here now. You can't just remove the weapon because of all the pilots who have trained Doomsday Operation. I do like the idea of the "E-War Doomsday" which would disrupt the hell out of enemy ships and leave them vulnerable to your gangmates, rather than the "a guy presses F1, 200 hostiles die" approach where not even your own fleet gets to take part in the fun except to pick off the pods and finish the handful of battleships who survived the doomsday with no shields or armour remaining. Its not an ideal solution however (the ideal solution involves going back in time 2 years and yelling at Devs). -----------
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:30:00 - [107] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt If its not a problem yet but will be in a year how about you STFU about it for 12 months, oh yes thats right getting them nerfed now will hurt the guys who reamed out ascn. Umm, are you saying BoB can't beat Goonswarm without titans? The rest of the Coalition went home, remember... I thought you said everything was not about BOB?. And im sure i say a nerf would hurt BOB not that it would stop them from taking space from GOONS.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:32:00 - [108] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt If its not a problem yet but will be in a year how about you STFU about it for 12 months, oh yes thats right getting them nerfed now will hurt the guys who reamed out ascn. Umm, are you saying BoB can't beat Goonswarm without titans? The rest of the Coalition went home, remember... I thought you said everything was not about BOB?. And im sure i say a nerf would hurt BOB not that it would stop them from taking space from GOONS. Its not about BoB. I think nerfing titans at this point would **** off a ton of people, not just BOB but also the likes of MM, RA and AAA, and I think that it would make no difference in the conflict between BoB and Goons. Which is why I think this is the right moment to do it as it hurts a lot of different entities and still won't affect the outcome of the current conflict with the current combatants that are involved.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:33:00 - [109] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Stop turning this into COAD FFS. This is not about BoB. I know Goons are doing stupid things, I don't give a ****. This is not about BoB even though you seem to believe everything HAS TO BE ABOUT YOU. It is not, get over yourself. Tell me Diana, how do you see 0.0 in a year from now. Can I get a prediction from you how many titans there will be and how that will affect 0.0 gameplay? Malachon, I've engaged in discussions about titans in the past. I agree they're broken. I agree they should be stations / capital killing behemoths. I don't think the dd should do "damage", I DO think it should just be an oversized BOMB (ie, sucks cap in its aoe etc etc etc). What I don't like, and I continue to laugh at - especially at people such as yourselves who say "this isn't about bob" is that the ONLY people WHINING about it are those that are fighting us. How about, less whining? The WAY that people are going about this is what I don't like, Malachon, but unfortunately it seems to work, so I dunno. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
HostageTaker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:36:00 - [110] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. So with all the titans the coalition has why do we not see their kill boards full of BOB fleet kills?. Because they are ******* about elsewhere and ignoring BoB. So you can't draw the conclusion that titans are not overpowered because they didn't kill many bobbits, since they are not in the warzone or anywhere near it. Now lets get back on topic. Why do you think that titan DDs would not pose a threat in the reasonably near future? So far all I see is a continueing shift towards more supercapitals, making the game less accessible for normal corps and players. What makes you think this shift will not continue? I'd really be interested in your honest opinion. According to the Devs, only 19% of EvE population is in 0.0 where the super-caps reside. 81% is in Empire, I'd say the game is accessible for normal corps and players. Oh and eL OH eL @ this thread. >>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<<

Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:37:00 - [111] Oh hey, Maralt, I noticed you didn't answer my question. I'm sure you overlooked it. Let me ask again: How do you beat a 8 Titan, 110 Cap fleet with 700 in local and a lot of lag?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:40:00 - [112] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Stop turning this into COAD FFS. This is not about BoB. I know Goons are doing stupid things, I don't give a ****. This is not about BoB even though you seem to believe everything HAS TO BE ABOUT YOU. It is not, get over yourself. Tell me Diana, how do you see 0.0 in a year from now. Can I get a prediction from you how many titans there will be and how that will affect 0.0 gameplay? Malachon, I've engaged in discussions about titans in the past. I agree they're broken. I agree they should be stations / capital killing behemoths. I don't think the dd should do "damage", I DO think it should just be an oversized BOMB (ie, sucks cap in its aoe etc etc etc). What I don't like, and I continue to laugh at - especially at people such as yourselves who say "this isn't about bob" is that the ONLY people WHINING about it are those that are fighting us. How about, less whining? The WAY that people are going about this is what I don't like, Malachon, but unfortunately it seems to work, so I dunno. I am not fighting you and havent been for quite a while. I took a few months vacation from Eve and since I got back we have shot everyone. I think I killed quite a few more Goons than BoB since I got back to be honest. And if you really want to know what really made me pause and think. Its not your 8 titans. Its Morsus Mihi. They have never held more than 1 region. Their region is not even that good. And yet, here they are with 5+ titans. Now if an alliance like MM can produce 5+ titans, what does that tell you in terms of how easy it has become to build them, and how attractive they really are in terms of alliance warfare? I can see the flaws in the Goons method of fighting at the moment. I am not sure how or why they are doing it, but the flaws are pretty obvious. But that does not change the fundamental issue with titans. I can understand you not wanting to discuss it while you keep fighting Goons, but lets face it, this war ain't over by a longshot. Goons have a ton of real estate with Sov 3/4, really close to lots of their buddies RA. Regardless how much you beat the crap out of them, killing them will take a long time even if you eventually succeed. By that time there will be tons and tons of titans flying around, making nerfing them all the more painful. What I would much rather see is a reasoned debate of what titans should look like and be able to do right now, instead of a needed change/fix/nerf that CCP eventually have to implement. And I don't think anyone wants a rush job on that.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:40:00 - [113] Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey, Maralt, I noticed you didn't answer my question. I'm sure you overlooked it. Let me ask again: How do you beat a 8 Titan, 110 Cap fleet with 700 in local and a lot of lag? Stop them getting in there in the first place. Haven't you learnt anything from fighting us? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:41:00 - [114] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt If its not a problem yet but will be in a year how about you STFU about it for 12 months, oh yes thats right getting them nerfed now will hurt the guys who reamed out ascn. Umm, are you saying BoB can't beat Goonswarm without titans? The rest of the Coalition went home, remember... I thought you said everything was not about BOB?. And im sure i say a nerf would hurt BOB not that it would stop them from taking space from GOONS. Its not about BoB. I think nerfing titans at this point would **** off a ton of people, not just BOB but also the likes of MM, RA and AAA, and I think that it would make no difference in the conflict between BoB and Goons. Which is why I think this is the right moment to do it as it hurts a lot of different entities and still won't affect the outcome of the current conflict with the current combatants that are involved. Multiple titans at the moment force large fleets/blobs to coordinate the timing and range of tacklers, capital ships, conventional ships and use and have reserves of all three ready to warp in instead of just blob spamming to gain space. A nerf would just allow numbers without any real planning or coordination to take over and that sucks. The reason why ppl complain about multiple titans is because they do not have the skill to plan such an engagement or the willingness to risk high isk assets in such an engagement. Titans do not need nerfing those that want to fight and destroy them just need to learn how to plan a campaign and of course grow a pair and risk there own high value ships.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:42:00 - [115] Also, this is not about BoB vs. GS, it's about the Doomsday being fundamentally broken. The war is just highlighting this, and a year from now this will affect more alliances than just BoB and GS. Maybe I'll still be around when the first Cap Fleet gets nuked to hell by 30 titans. Also, saving the responses for future reference when GS gets their multiple Titans out. I'm out of this thread, it's turning into CAOD.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.31 20:43:00 - [116] Originally by: HostageTaker According to the Devs, only 19% of EvE population is in 0.0 where the super-caps reside. 81% is in Empire, I'd say the game is accessible for normal corps and players. Oh and eL OH eL @ this thread. How many characters do you have in Empire compared to 0.0? I can tell you a majority of mine is in Empire. And yet I consider myself a 0.0 inhabitant above all else.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:07:00 - [117] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Kerfira Wrong! Warfare involving titans is MAYBE 1% of what happens in 0.0. By FAR most of what happens in 0.0 is roaming gangs and fleet warfare. DD's are pretty damn rare, sometimes only happening a few times (if that) per week. Look at how stupid you are. http://www.killboard.net/player/Shrike/kills/ DD's being fired several times a week, even several times a day is very common, especially when strategic assets are at stake. 2 DD's fired in quick sequence in order to nuke battleship gangs attacking a pos are very common. When strategic assets are at stake, and one alliance has a titan, there will be DDs. Almost all fleet warefare in delve in the past month has involved 1 or more titans. And look at how you don't know math! (see, I can do the insult game too, however in my case I'm actually basing my arguments on facts) Just because you happen to encounter DD's a lot when your FC stupidly throws your fleet into them doesn't in any way, shape, form or fashion mean they're common. I had this discussion with Malachon in another thread, and I showed that at that time (sometime last week), even BoB with their 8/9 titans had only used DD's approximately one day per week during the previous 2 months. That IS rare by any measure you can use. An oh, since your coalition has more titans than BoB, why aren't they whining? Just stop trying to get the game changed just because you come up against players that're better than you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:08:00 - [118] Originally by: Kingwood Also, this is not about BoB vs. GS, it's about the Doomsday being fundamentally broken. The war is just highlighting this, and a year from now this will affect more alliances than just BoB and GS. Maybe I'll still be around when the first Cap Fleet gets nuked to hell by 30 titans. Also, saving the responses for future reference when GS gets their multiple Titans out. I'm out of this thread, it's turning into CAOD. Kingwood, a couple of things for you: 1 - it would take 55+ to one shot a dread (according to our setups) - just some trivia for you. 2 - All of us in BoB command agree the titan is broken. We just think it needs to be fixed differently. We also agree that jammers should be looked at. When CCP introduced constellational sov it compressed the space which pilots wanted to "keep". When they introduced jammers, it increased the amount they were ABLE to keep. For the good of the game, that needs to be reversed. But I'll tell you this - us having titans means we have a better chance of standing up to the uber-blob you were throwing at us for just over a year. You can sit there and say "it ain't fair" about the doomsday until you're blue in the face, but nor is it "fair" when, to guarantee victory, ANY side is able to pull a jv1v scenario and crash the node just to achieve a result. Titans allow us to prevent that, and rightfully so. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:10:00 - [119] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 21:15:22 Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey, I see you were in QY6 yesterday too. Soz, since you're obviously an able FC, tell me how to take out 9 titans and 110 Caps in a system with 700 in local. (Without me having to bring in 10 titans and 120 Caps). Please explain: Why on earth should you be able to counter a superior fleet with an inferior one? If you leave the titans out of your numbers, how would you think you should counter the situation of 700 in local and 110 caps? If you're true to your previous statement, you probably think you should be able to handle that with 100 conventional and 50 caps.... Originally by: Kingwood Good job bringing CAOD into here. TBH, I'd say your side started that in the first place by trying to get the game changed just because you're run into someone you can't beat. Your side have more titans than BoB and still you're the ones crying Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:23:00 - [120] Originally by: Dianabolic But I'll tell you this - us having titans means we have a better chance of standing up to the uber-blob you were throwing at us for just over a year. You can sit there and say "it ain't fair" about the doomsday until you're blue in the face, but nor is it "fair" when, to guarantee victory, ANY side is able to pull a jv1v scenario and crash the node just to achieve a result. Titans allow us to prevent that, and rightfully so. Nice example... If I remember correctly, titans and DD's were introduced as a crowd control feature for this very purpose. This has insured that EVE basically functions like it always has, and that to kill an alliance you have to kill their morale, usually by being better pilots than them. Gang/fleet combat are still overwhelmingly what happens in this game in 0.0. This is how the game SHOULD be! It shouldn't just be a game where the objective is to gather more people than your opponent! It should be a game where individual pilot capabilities, motivation, equipment, FC abilities, pilot discipline, tactics and strategy decides who wins. Titans and DD's contributes to that by making sure that a well motivated smaller alliance can still defend against someone zerg'ing them. CCP wanted more stability in 0.0, and has by and large got it, with a significant contribution from titans. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:25:00 - [121] A no-flame-reply. Good to see for a change. I didn't bother to check those numbers, some guys ran it through and said something about 30, not 55. I took that at face value, so you might be correct, I'm too lazy to run EFT. At least it's good to know you bobbits agree it is broken. (Oh god, a Goon agreeing with Bob, Molle getting complimented by Goons for stabbing MC in the back, what's the world coming to :cripes:) The problem with Titans is they scale exponentially. 1 Titan by itself with a support fleet can be taken out. 2 Titans might be possible, 3 and more, well, just forget it. It's not that I'm advocating a nerf so we can overrun you easily, it's that Titans are breaking the game in 0.0. It's an arms race. Only those alliances who can field sufficient numbers will survive in any war in the future, the rest can go back to empire. You cannot take out a Titan supported by other Titans, except if you field more Titans, and if lag plays in your favor. Subcapitals are obsolete. My prediction is that war in 0.0 will eventually stalemate, just because alliances can jump 20+ Titans to any threatened system (with a Cynojammer), preventing those systems from changing Sov ever. The Doomsday is horribly broken.
zacuis	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:30:00 - [122] i have thought since i was in the fountain campaign while in d2 that titans dd was simply broken it has not made the game any more fun. we had titans and at the time it was as many as bob. and they just brought the battle to a halt both sides unwilling to fight cos the second they brouht in there fleet (subcapital) it was dead. it was a cat and mouse game to dd the others fleet. and it was completely boring. anything that mean the majority of the players in a fleet dont get to kill anything is game breaking. in short totally signed remove dd and replace it with something else plz
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:33:00 - [123] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 21:15:22 Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey, I see you were in QY6 yesterday too. Soz, since you're obviously an able FC, tell me how to take out 9 titans and 110 Caps in a system with 700 in local. (Without me having to bring in 10 titans and 120 Caps). Please explain: Why on earth should you be able to counter a superior fleet with an inferior one? If you leave the titans out of your numbers, how would you think you should counter the situation of 700 in local and 110 caps? If you're true to your previous statement, you probably think you should be able to handle that with 100 conventional and 50 caps.... Originally by: Kingwood Good job bringing CAOD into here. TBH, I'd say your side started that in the first place by trying to get the game changed just because you're run into someone you can't beat. Your side have more titans than BoB and still you're the ones crying Capitals without Titans don't obsolete subcapital fleets. I'm not even gonna respond to your last comment, you're in the wrong forum.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:14:00 - [124] DD's are not fine, never have been and were a mistake by CCP that goes against fundamental rules in EVE. It doesn't matter in the slightest who is abusing this currently because everyone will do or try doing it in the future. I'm against removing dd's because it's too late now, but it needs to be changed to comply with some eve fundamentals. What are these fundamentals? - Effectiveness dependant on sig radius. Even frigs should be able to tank a DD if they are setup to do so, sacrificing effectiveness in other areas. - "Stacking penality" or what I called diminishing returns feature, ie. space becomes "depleted" after a dd is used and for the next hour subsequent dd's do less damage. First dd does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. Untill this or something similar isn't through people will continue to amass titans because each titan becomes more valable than the previous ones due to the dd.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:30:00 - [125] Originally by: Traeon DD's are not fine, never have been and were a mistake by CCP that goes against fundamental rules in EVE. It doesn't matter in the slightest who is abusing this currently because everyone will do or try doing it in the future. I'm against removing dd's because it's too late now, but it needs to be changed to comply with some eve fundamentals. What are these fundamentals? - Effectiveness dependant on sig radius. Even frigs should be able to tank a DD if they are setup to do so, sacrificing effectiveness in other areas. - "Stacking penality" or what I called diminishing returns feature, ie. space becomes "depleted" after a dd is used and for the next hour subsequent dd's do less damage. First dd does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. Untill this or something similar isn't through people will continue to amass titans because each titan becomes more valable than the previous ones due to the dd. If you make them have diminishing returns you'll only make the problem worse. More and more and more will be required. And no, a godawful frigate should NOT be able to survive it. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:36:00 - [126] Originally by: Kingwood Capitals without Titans don't obsolete subcapital fleets. Damn.... Where were those goon whinings over carriers ruining the game. I'm sure they were around here somewhere.... Titan's doesn't obsolete sub-capital fleets. If that was so, why is 99% of 0.0 warfare still gang/fleet warfare? Why don't we see titans jumping around DD'ing left, right and center? Perhaps because your arguments are not correct??? Titans limit blobbing in some battles by making those (very few) battles mostly about capitals and the occational HIC's scrambling. ....and it is still only maybe 1% of 0.0 warfare.... Why is this such a huge problem? One point of view could also be that since cap pilots are sometimes sitting around for hours on end waiting, at least they should have some parts of the game where they're having some fun without being lagged out by blobbers. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:53:00 - [127] Originally by: Kerfira Titans limit blobbing in some battles Specifically, the battles that determine who owns the station and who doesn't. Quote: One point of view could also be that since cap pilots are sometimes sitting around for hours on end waiting, at least they should have some parts of the game where they're having some fun without being lagged out by blobbers. It's nice that you consider individual people (yes, people) who play the game and log in every day to be nothing more than a homogeneous "blob" of faceless torment that deserve being made completely useless by five or more guys mashing F1. Unfortunately, allowing five players to wipe out someones ship, a ship that person spent time making money for, fitting out, moving around, insuring, etc. when he's trying to defend or attack something doesn't seem very fun from a gameplay perspective. Hey, let me repeat the second last word from that sentence. Gameplay. GAME. People play this GAME, with all of it's flaws, lag, and other crap because everyone from the guy in the "crappy" little frigate to the guy flying the tricked out T2-fitted battleship has a role. Or did, until this game begame one of "whoever has the most supercap building dedication wins". How would you enjoy it if in Sins of a Solar Empire you built up this big fleet, went to attack a planet and then the enemy just nuked all of your non-capitals away with a single button push? How would you enjoy it if in Team Fortress 2 it became a game of whoever could build the most Level 3 sentries the fastest won? No one ship in EVE should outclass every other ship for subcapital fleet combat. Carriers, Motherships and Titans all have the same problems: they can engage in subcapital fleet combat extremely effectively. It's no goddamn wonder CCP thinks people consider them battleships because that's basically the role they're slowly but surely replacing. Sure, cyno jammers require you to use "conventional" battleships but after thats down (by "blobbing" it, no less) and you cyno into system you're basically home free and can switch back to capital ships.
Bozse	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:57:00 - [128] Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:58:00 - [129] Edited by: Kingwood on 31/03/2008 22:58:39 doublepost
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:58:00 - [130] Edited by: Kingwood on 31/03/2008 22:58:59 Edit: In response to Kerfiras last post Christ, you're obviously trolling. It's not only goons complaining about the doomsday, maybe you should read the thread again. And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. I'm really tired of these forums and the ******** alt trolling, so I'm gonna call it a night. I have some more studying to do anyway.

Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:15:00 - [131] Sure didn't see this one coming. Although as a high sec miner I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Rasta we g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:15:00 - [132] Originally by: Katana Seiko Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? DD's hurt ALL surounding ships within 250km , INCLUDEING itself. So if 8 titans let of 8 DD's u have almost ALL of there capital fleet deep into there tanks. this gives the oposeing fleet a much bigger chance to take out the titans support. nothin is imposible. it just needs planing and alot of time for it to work.
Cailais VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:39:00 - [133] Seeing as I dont fly a Titan, or actually know anyone who does I hope I can comment here with a degree of impartiality. Eventually Titans and Capital ships will become very very common. Think back to how Battleships were a rarity, owned only by the wealthy. Now more or less everyone has one, or has one within easy reach. The problem, as I see it, is that capital ships are currently just big Battleships. Its rather like 'leveling up' in other games. Get a frigate, then a cruiser, then a BC then a BS then a carrier...etc etc. CCP then chose to add a 'Big F'in Gun' to Titans - no doubt it seemed a cool idea at the time. What the capital class vessels should be, in my view, are 'civilisation' vessels. Some people have likend them to 'flying stations' and thats not a bad analogy. A Titan should be an industrial core. Capable of producing equipment. Able to process ore, spawn ships, act as a mobile market and claim soveriegnty (or go some way towards it) simply by being there. It shouldnt be however a walking A bomb. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:48:00 - [134] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 23:52:50 Originally by: Dianabolic If you make them have diminishing returns you'll only make the problem worse. More and more and more will be required. And no, a godawful frigate should NOT be able to survive it. Incorrect. I'll explain... Under current mechanics, the total damage done increases linearly with each dd: 1x 70000 2x 140000 3x 210000 4x 280000 5x 350000 6x 420000 7x 490000 ... The diminishing returns mechanics as in my example decreases the usefulness of each additional dd. While dd'ing whole subcapital fleets is still possible it won't be possible more than once per system per hour (because the diminishing returns are system wide) and it's harder than before. 1x 70000 2x 105000 3x 122500 4x 131250 5x 135625 6x 137812 7x 138906 About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:05:00 - [135] Originally by: Rasta we Edited by: Rasta we on 31/03/2008 23:46:39 Originally by: Katana Seiko Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? DD's hurt ALL surounding ships within 250km , INCLUDEING itself. So if 8 titans let of 8 DD's u have almost ALL of there capital fleet deep into there tanks. this gives the oposeing fleet a much bigger chance to take out the titans support. nothin is imposible. it just needs planing and alot of time for it to work. EDIT: maby not deep into there tanks but close to it Err not really. 8 DDs is like 550k dmg? Against an armor tanking caps ship you'll take out the sield and then maybe 50k into the armor, so figure 1/6 armor or less.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:06:00 - [136] Edited by: Gamesguy on 01/04/2008 00:07:35 Originally by: Bozse Edited by: Bozse on 31/03/2008 23:00:43 Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Edit: Super caps in general needs a buff in the tanking department though, to easy to gank once held down as it stands now and would motivate more open use of them in propper combat. I agree with this. Buff supercap tanks a lot, then nerf the DD some. Perhaps make it so it does more damage the closer you are? Like if the DD barely hits you from 200km away then you take only a couple thousand damage, where as if you were right next to the titan you'd take a hundred thousand. Oh and it would have a explosion radius like bombs, the number can be adjusted but something like 500 is a good number.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:58:00 - [137] Originally by: Bozse Edited by: Bozse on 31/03/2008 23:00:43 Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Edit: Super caps in general needs a buff in the tanking department though, to easy to gank once held down as it stands now and would motivate more open use of them in propper combat. I like all of this. Scripts can allow for a lot of fun effects so a DD can do different things depending on the situation, rather than a large iwin button. More base hp for MSs/Titans or a tanking bonus would be nice. It is VERY VERY important to squash problems BEFORE they break the game. Carriers were meant to be somewhat rare(I think, devs don't seem to like how common capitals are) but now boom 40 in a system all remote repping and launching fighters? That's a lot of lag just from that let alone the fleet needed to challenge such a group. So we didn't think about the mass-production of carriers and didn't fix anything in advance and now we are paying for it. Unless you like laggy, unplayable battles?
Ciara Daag Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:52:00 - [138] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: gordon cain Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain How do you beat 1 titan with a small gang, much less 11. At what DD rate per minute do titans actually become overpowered in your opinion. When titans start dding capfleets sieging pos's (as they are required to in order to take systems) and killing them, is that not overpowered? Imagine an alliance with 50 titans (we will get there) how do you take any of their systems without any capfleet you use against a pos being dd'd? I would love to hear your solution, because all I see is politically modivated posturing to try to maintain a status quo that is clearly unacceptable in the long run. When you cant force your way into a system with a small gang, a big one is required. I would love to see a nano-hac gang do anything strategic. What you do is bring 50 titans of your own of course. Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own?
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:56:00 - [139] Originally by: Ciara Daag Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? We are not talking about making Titans easier to kill. We are talking about removing the doomsday and remodeling the Titan into a strategic weapon rather than a tactical weapon. This is bold for emphasis.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:58:00 - [140] And here's a double post, just so you guys understand: Make Titans easier to kill: No. (As in, no, Titans should not (negatory) be easier to kill.) Remove the Titans tactical ability against subcapitals: Yes. (As in, yes, remove the doomsday and make it a mobile station.) I hope this guide has been useful.

Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:34:00 - [141] Originally by: Ciara Daag What you do is bring 50 titans of your own of course. Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? Thank you for this. I suggest you go over your own comment with deliberation, understand what you just said, and the implications of it. Then come back here.
Jellygoop The Gravedigger Company	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:37:00 - [142] Originally by: Ort Lofthus Fixes should address that the DD effect is more or less ok but the ability to do it rapidly is a problem. Things like 1 week cooldowns LOL Originally by: hired goon Holy crap! Now I remember why I was Caldari. *hired goon humps a Paradise Cruise Missile
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:38:00 - [143] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Ciara Daag Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? We are not talking about making Titans easier to kill. We are talking about removing the doomsday and remodeling the Titan into a strategic weapon rather than a tactical weapon. This is bold for emphasis. Protip: I believe that was a sarcastic fakepost.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:46:00 - [144] After reading all of the responses here I will believe anything.
A Squirrel BladeRunners INC	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:52:00 - [145] I have read this thread, and followed the thoughts back and forth. While I see the merit on both sides I don't see the DD getting out of hand, or causing it to become harder for people to get into 0.0 space. It takes a long time to get into a titan and be able to fire a doomsday. and yes stacking 8, 10 or even 15 of them in the same area would be nasty as hell for anyone attacking them. but at what cost. Yes more titans are being made, easy way to counter this is kill them in production. yes they will be guarded, thats alot of isk tied up in something that goes boom if the tower goes down. Currently there is no free 0.0 space that a small alliance can move into. why either it's taken claimed, or so freakin deep they have to nap all of the north and spending days flying just to get there. dooms days will become more prevalent in this game if something isn't changed, but that doesn't mean thats a bad thing. the biggest problem in eve right now is lag, 700+ people on the same grid of a system makes it almost impossible to fight, bt should you really bring 700+ people to a fight, if a battle was say 1 titan 30 cmaller cap ships against the same on the other side, it would go alot smother. the solution I see that is needed is two fold. 1 change how POS warfare is done. what the changes need to be made I don't know, I have only taken part in two pos battles, and one of them the other side never showed up for the second half. 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. what does all this have to do with DDD's sure if you bunch them up in one place they can be nasty. but think about it, 1 yo need cynos to take them anywhere, 2 they need a support fleet to keep them alive against a well thought out attack, 3 they are massively expensive and take a long time to build. Personaly I think the reason we didn't see a build up like this before, was because the expense being put out during the war, to keep it going, was limiting the excess money now being put into titans, and the fact that the two sides would hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. If these two thing come round again I can say we will see a decline rather than an increase in the number of titans.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:09:00 - [146] Originally by: A Squirrel hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. Sovereignty Level 4
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:20:00 - [147] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 01/04/2008 07:21:56 Originally by: A Squirrel snip. the solution I see that is needed is two fold. 1 change how POS warfare is done. what the changes need to be made I don't know, I have only taken part in two pos battles, and one of them the other side never showed up for the second half. 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. what does all this have to do with DDD's sure if you bunch them up in one place they can be nasty. but think about it, 1 yo need cynos to take them anywhere, 2 they need a support fleet to keep them alive against a well thought out attack, 3 they are massively expensive and take a long time to build. Personaly I think the reason we didn't see a build up like this before, was because the expense being put out during the war, to keep it going, was limiting the excess money now being put into titans, and the fact that the two sides would hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. If these two thing come round again I can say we will see a decline rather than an increase in the number of titans. A few counterpoints. 1. Killing titans in production has become a lot more difficult. Previously one could attack a capital shipyard and come back 4 or 5 days later to finish it off after the POS came out of reinforced. Under the new sovereignty system, all capital shipyards for major alliances will be in Sov 4 systems. Which means that first you need to assault a nearby Sov 3 station system, conquer it, wait another week, then put the production POS into reinforced and come back to finish it off a day or two later. You're looking at an operation that will take a minimum of 2 weeks, requiring a full assault on a station system (POS-spam will be needed) and two cynojammers to be taken down. Much less viable than previously. 2. Titans only prevent blobbing for sides that don't have them/don't live under cynojammers. At the same time, to take out a titan you need a pretty big fleet. You cannot take out a cynojammer protected by a titan without a big blob. You cannot take out a titan under a cynojammer without a big blob. You most certainly cannot take out 5 titans under a cynojammer without a HUGE blob. 3. It is not the playerbase deciding how they play. Its the game-mechanics. Players just adapt to the mechanics that CCP creates. CCP should change the POS mechanics so people don't have to blob to accomplish objectives. 4. Titans are not that expensive, I think you underestimate how much isk big alliances can make from moonmining at the moment.
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:20:00 - [148] Originally by: A Squirrel 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. Yes clearly it's the players fault. With 1000's of people trying to destroy each other clearly no alternative strategies have ever been tried or theorycrafted and it's purely a lack of imagination. I am absolutely positive this is the case
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:42:00 - [149] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Unfortunately, allowing five players to wipe out someones ship, a ship that person spent time making money for, fitting out, moving around, insuring, etc. when he's trying to defend or attack something doesn't seem very fun from a gameplay perspective. Purely depends on whether you want your game to be challenging or whether you want it to be a "hello-kitty happy-happy" land. I really do have nothing against the wrong decision from an FC having harsh consequences. Originally by: Yuki Nagato Or did, until this game begame one of "whoever has the most supercap building dedication wins". Nothing like rewriting reality to suit your arguments...... Something like 99% of 0.0 combat is sub-capital combat. A group can be eminently effective without them. You can't build big empires without them, but why the hell should building big empires be without big effort? Originally by: Yuki Nagato How would you enjoy it if in Sins of a Solar Empire you built up this big fleet, went to attack a planet and then the enemy just nuked all of your non-capitals away with a single button push? I'd be pretty **ed..... at myself for putting my fleet in that position! Originally by:** Yuki Nagato No one ship in EVE should outclass every other ship for subcapital fleet combat. And titans doesn't! Originally by: Yuki Nagato Carriers, Motherships and Titans all have the same problems: they can engage in subcapital fleet combat extremely effectively. It's no goddamn wonder CCP thinks people consider them battleships because that's basically the role they're slowly but surely replacing. Sure, cyno jammers require you to use "conventional" battleships but after thats down (by "blobbing" it, no less) and you cyno into system you're basically home free and can switch back to capital ships. I see. That's probably the reason BoB used 100+ battleships in QY6 after they broke in. This makes so much sense. Titans are worthless without a support fleet. A conventional fleet is still powerful without a titan (or other caps). Your whole argument reeks of you not wanting hard challenges. Hopefully that's not the direction CCP want the game to take (ref below quote). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:51:00 - [150] Oh christ. University of Caille has secretly amassed a fleet of titans AND knows how to beat Titan and Capital blobs with sub capitals. Jesus, time to quit the game.

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:56:00 - [151] Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Titans only prevent blobbing for sides that don't have them/don't live under cynojammers. At the same time, to take out a titan you need a pretty big fleet. You cannot take out a cynojammer protected by a titan without a big blob. You cannot take out a titan under a cynojammer without a big blob. You most certainly cannot take out 5 titans under a cynojammer without a HUGE blob. Depends on when you choose to attack. If you attack when your enemy is alert, of.c. not. What happened last friday? A surprise attack killed off a sov 3 system with a jammer, WITH a titan in system. Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. It is not the playerbase deciding how they play. Its the game-mechanics. Players just adapt to the mechanics that CCP creates. CCP should change the POS mechanics so people don't have to blob to accomplish objectives. People will blob anyway. Blind human nature.... The only way to reduce blobbing is by game mechanics that discourage it. Titans are currently the only such anti-blobbing mechanic. How would the game be if we didn't have titans, and no other mechanics were changed? Pretty easy to answer. The biggest group would just roll over the smaller ones one by one (in lagged out battles tactics and FC abilities mean nothing, only numbers do...). There'd be nothing in game mechanics to prevent that. This is the main reason I support titans wholeheartedly. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 08:03:00 - [152] Originally by: Kingwood Edit: In response to Kerfiras last post Christ, you're obviously trolling. Nope, not trolling. Just thinking that game mechanics that work fairly well shouldn't be changed just because a group of sub-par players can't overcome them. Basically the only reason you are making these argument is because you think you're 'entitled' to win by blobbing. Titans prevent that, so you want them removed. Sorry to put it harshly, but there it is. Originally by: Kingwood It's not only goons complaining about the doomsday, maybe you should read the thread again. No, it's primarily goons and Malachon who'd been arguing against everything BoB related since ASCN was killed. Originally by: Kingwood And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. This is just a scare scenario with no base in how the game seem to be developing to support it. If it becomes a problem, CCP will handle it. No signs it will be though. Originally by: Kingwood I'm really tired of these forums and the ****** alt trolling, so I'm gonna call it a night. I have some more studying to do anyway. This has been my posting character for 2 years. It's not going to change. And I always LOVE it when the 'alt argument' is brought in. You know why? It means whoever is making it has run out of REAL arguments against what I'm saying Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.01 08:25:00 - [153] I'll try to make this a rather lengthy and quick post, Kerfira, because you obviously need all the help you get. The reason the Doomsday is so broken is because it gives increasing returns to scale. Note I say Doomsday here, not Titans, but I will use Titans from now on. For every given input you get an output. If you increase the input by a factor of x, but get an output of > x, then that is increasing returns to scale. How does this apply to Doomsdays? 1 Titan can be destroyed by an enemy without Titan support, because it is possible to have 2 fleets ready, or tank 1 fleet for the Doomsday, or or or. It is possible, and noone is complaining about that. 2 Titans supporting each other require a fleet able to tank 2 Doomsdays, or 3 fleets able to take out a Titan, because you can't count on being able to bait the Titan into firing it's Doomsday in laggy situations. 3 Titans is the turning point. You will need to have 4 fleets ready, which MIGHT be possible if you're coordinating with an ally, but I'd say that's almost impossible. From 4 Titans you are at the point where you run practically no risk of losing one, because by the time the 5th fleet (haha) hits, the first Doomsday will have recycled. So how is this IRS? While you add the cost of each Titan (let's say 90 billion for 1), the ability to destroy ships increases exponentially, to the point where it is no longer possible to attack Titans with subcapital ships. Once an alliance hits the turning point of 3 Titans, it is almost impossible to lose a Titan to normal fleet combat. Your subcapitals get nuked to hell. You have no cap support in a cynojammed system. Good game. Since humans are normally rational (except you Kerfira, you obviously suffered from oxygen deprivation during birth), you will not see Titans getting any use until they can support each other. A more risk-taking Alliance might start using them once they have 3, most probably will start using them when they have 4. That's when they're practically immune to enemy subcapital fleets. And what's the counter to 4 Titans? 5 Titans (plus cap support). And so on and on. CCP obviously never thought about what might happen once Alliances get more than 1 Titan, because the Doomsday mechanic is balanced for 1 Titan. It breaks as soon as more than 1 Titan enter the game. To balance this, you might have the building cost scale accordingly, but that poses the problem that poorer alliances will have a harder time getting more than 1, while rich alliances like BoB will still field the most. The solution is adding a counter to Titans into the field (Doomsday immune ships or modules), or nerfing the Doomsday to hell, because 0.0 space is as broken as can be at the moment. This is not about BoB vs. GS, and it is not a political debate. This is about a game mechanic which breaks the 0.0 game in so many ways, it's almost hilarious. Also, read what that eXeec guy said, because he knows what he's talking about.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:17:00 - [154] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 01/04/2008 09:19:13 Originally by: Kerfira No, it's primarily goons and Malachon who'd been arguing against everything BoB related since ASCN was killed. Actually, if you read Dianabolic's posts, he agrees that titans are broken. He just chooses not to complain about it at this point in time. Originally by: Dianabolic 2 - All of us in BoB command agree the titan is broken. We just think it needs to be fixed differently. We also agree that jammers should be looked at. When CCP introduced constellational sov it compressed the space which pilots wanted to "keep". When they introduced jammers, it increased the amount they were ABLE to keep. For the good of the game, that needs to be reversed. So you are incorrect. Everyone knows they are broken, we may disagree about how they should be changed and whether it should just be titans or a combination of changes to titans/POS warfare and other stuff, but I don't see how you can deny that titans are a serious part of the problem when we have Dianabolic stating and I quote again Originally by: Dianabolic All of us in BoB command agree the titan is broken But you keep bringing up CAOD bull**** which has no merit here except to post false ad hominem attacks on people trying to engage in a real debate. Did I ever dismiss your comments because you were just a BoB-alt troll? How is your laughing about KIngwood calling you an alt-troll any different from you calling our reasoning flawed just because we are either goons or someone who used to be in opposition to BoB? Bottomline, people agree there is a serious problem. BoB command agrees to the extent that they say that the titan is broken. Now why not engage in a serious debate on that issue, and allowing all sides to bring in elements which they believe are relevant and could help create a real solution without resorting to the incessant bickering of CAOD? Have people become so blinded by CAOD that all reasonable discussion has become impossible out of fear?
AngeFredinauQwertia Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:19:00 - [155] Edited by: AngeFredinauQwertia on 01/04/2008 09:20:16 How about turning DD into some sort of death ray(with a 100% probability to hit target)? Maybe boost it damage and reduce reuse delay and remove moving\warping penalty after shot, but make it possible to shot only one single target. So it will be possible to see titans destroying other supcapitals. Yes, they will still have IWin button, but not Kill'emAll button.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:19:00 - [156] Originally by: Kerfira Nope, not trolling. Just thinking that game mechanics that work fairly well shouldn't be changed just because a group of sub-par players can't overcome them. Basically the only reason you are making these argument is because you think you're 'entitled' to win by blobbing. Titans prevent that, so you want them removed. Killing an online cynojammer on a fully faction fit large POS guarded by 10+ Titans is something that is easy to do? Because they cannot accomplish such a feat means they are subpar? Originally by: Kingwood No, it's primarily goons and Malachon who'd been arguing against everything BoB related since ASCN was killed. No, you need to read the thread, I saw two BoB posts that admitted Titans were in need of a change. That is quite a statement seeing as they apparently have a huge upper hand in the Titan department (or at least the known active titan department) Originally by: Kingwood And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. This is just a scare scenario with no base in how the game seem to be developing to support it. If it becomes a problem, CCP will handle it. No signs it will be though. From the MANY posts of old players, they will say that cruisers were once rare, now they are common, BS were rare, now common, Carriers were rare, now common. I saw a 15 man TRI MS gang, MS are pretty common. Logic dictates that soon Titans will be common. CCP has already stated numberous times in interviews and live dev blogs and the failed carrier nerf that they want to mess around with capital ships. You are wrong. I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:25:00 - [157] Originally by: Kerfira How would the game be if we didn't have titans, and no other mechanics were changed? Pretty easy to answer. The biggest group would just roll over the smaller ones one by one (in lagged out battles tactics and FC abilities mean nothing, only numbers do...). There'd be nothing in game mechanics to prevent that. This is the main reason I support titans wholeheartedly. Ok, see. Here is a reasonable argument on your side. You are worried that the blob will rule everything. I am not so sure, I do recall the BoB-ASCN war where aside from the many node crashes that cost ASCN dearly, we also lost practically every normal fleetfight even when we brought more BS than BoB. Also, in Invictus I recall wiping the floor with RISE a few times and GUARD in terms of BS kills where we were able to wipe them out due to better tactics/aligning/focusfire/abundance of T2 snipers. Why do you believe that the titan is the only way to combat blobs? Or are you specifically referring to the LV baby-titan kill where all gameplay became impossible due to truely vast numbers? Because I would agree with you that you need a method of countering someone sending a 1500 man blob at you, but I don't agree that you should be able to wpie out a 200 man blob with a few pushes of a button.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:43:00 - [158] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira How would the game be if we didn't have titans, and no other mechanics were changed? Pretty easy to answer. The biggest group would just roll over the smaller ones one by one (in lagged out battles tactics and FC abilities mean nothing, only numbers do...). There'd be nothing in game mechanics to prevent that. This is the main reason I support titans wholeheartedly. Ok, see. Here is a reasonable argument on your side. You are worried that the blob will rule everything. I am not so sure, I do recall the BoB-ASCN war where aside from the many node crashes that cost ASCN dearly, we also lost practically every normal fleetfight even when we brought more BS than BoB. Also, in Invictus I recall wiping the floor with RISE a few times and GUARD in terms of BS kills where we were able to wipe them out due to better tactics/aligning/focusfire/abundance of T2 snipers. Why do you believe that the titan is the only way to combat blobs? Or are you specifically referring to the LV baby-titan kill where all gameplay became impossible due to truely vast numbers? Because I would agree with you that you need a method of countering someone sending a 1500 man blob at you, but I don't agree that you should be able to wpie out a 200 man blob with a few pushes of a button. This IS actually my main concern, and you'd notice that Dianabolic also mentions this.... I'm not really refering to the LV case specifically, but more to the same scenario in general. If you don't have a means ingame to counter blobs (and atm titans are the ONLY such mean), a new I-Win button has been created? You know as well as I do that once lag hits in a fleet fight (and this happens once you hit around 200-300 people fighting), the party with the superior number will win (at least 9 out of 10 times). It doesn't matter what skill the opposing fleet members have, it doesn't matter what ship fittings they have, it doesn't matter how brilliant the tactics of the FC is. Everyone will be lagged out, not able to maneuver. Any ship that manage to target and fire its guns will kill the ship it targets. Its now longer a game of skill and tactics, but a game of bringing the biggest number and lag out the smaller but better opponent. Wow! Compared to that scenario, I think whatever problems there might be with titans pales into insignificance! You see one mechanic you think is broken, but what you're going to replace it with (by removing titans) is WAY more broken! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:46:00 - [159] Originally by: Vaal Erit Killing an online cynojammer on a fully faction fit large POS guarded by 10+ Titans is something that is easy to do? Because they cannot accomplish such a feat means they are subpar? If they can't think of anything else to do than to throw fleets into 10 titans, yes, they are sub-par! How about attacking it when there are NOT 10 titans there????? It only takes like 5 minutes to incap a cyno jammer if using enough BS. Then pour in their capitals and hold the system while they clear the system.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ishina Fel	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:46:00 - [160] Speaking from personal experience, I will say the following: -Fighting one Titan is annoying. -Fighting two Titans, while entirely possible, sucks. -Fighting a two-digit number of Titans, while some may argue that it is somehow theoretically possible, would probe out previously unknown depths of suckitude and annoyance. There is zero fun involved with assaulting Titans. It takes forever, it costs you your ship, often repeatedly, and because the entire galaxy insists on attending it is utterly unplayable for anyone with a ping greater than 5ms. Even fighting alongside a Titan is zero fun. You have to warp out because else you'll lose your ship to friendly fire. You won't get any killmails to be proud of. And in turn it attracts large amount of lag. 0.0 space wars have been very little but disappointing ever since the advent of supercapitals. Even getting Jihad Swarmed while highsec mining is more fun than tower sieges in Titan-infested systems - at least it would be something you don't see happen every day. and any of you who claim to not enjoy getting killmails are hypocrites. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Bored during Downtime? Why not try Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN!

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:51:00 - [161] Originally by: Vaal Erit I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we? If you can come up with something for that, I'm all for it. I'm not pro-titan as such (though I do like having things to strive for in a game), but I am anti-blob! I simply don't think that lagging out a system with a blob should ever be a valid way to win a battle. Titans are currently to ONLY possible counter in-game against that. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:53:00 - [162] Originally by: Kerfira This IS actually my main concern, and you'd notice that Dianabolic also mentions this.... I'm not really refering to the LV case specifically, but more to the same scenario in general. If you don't have a means ingame to counter blobs (and atm titans are the ONLY such mean), a new I-Win button has been created? You know as well as I do that once lag hits in a fleet fight (and this happens once you hit around 200-300 people fighting), the party with the superior number will win (at least 9 out of 10 times). It doesn't matter what skill the opposing fleet members have, it doesn't matter what ship fittings they have, it doesn't matter how brilliant the tactics of the FC is. Everyone will be lagged out, not able to maneuver. Any ship that manage to target and fire its guns will kill the ship it targets. Its now longer a game of skill and tactics, but a game of bringing the biggest number and lag out the smaller but better opponent. Wow! Compared to that scenario, I think whatever problems there might be with titans pales into insignificance! You see one mechanic you think is broken, but what you're going to replace it with (by removing titans) is WAY more broken! I disagree with your premise that the problem starts with 200-300 people generally and I am pretty sure BoB will back me up on that. They've shown plenty of times that as long as there is some server performance, they can manage themselves pretty well at a fight where it is 200-300 in local, even when they are outnumbered 2 to 1. But ok, I will agree with you that the superblob of 600+ is an issue. But are titans the real solution to that? Personally I think no titan would be mad enough to jump into a system with 600 enemies already in local. And how often does that really happen? I can think of only 2 occasions where such superblobs came into being, the JV1V fight (LV) and the F-T fight in Delve over a year ago. If you think about it, would there be alternatives to titans to prevent such massive blobs? What would happen if instead of a doomsday, ships would explode when they die, causing damage to ships around it. Wouldn't that be a much better way of dealing with huge blobs? A more skilled opponent could be able to start a chain reaction of exploding ships if their enemy flies crappy stuff. If your opponent comes at you with a blob of 50 BS and 100 frigs, blowing up the BS would cause the frigs to blow up due to the exploding BS close to it. Or what about implementing some kind of torpedoes or other weapons with a blast radius? My personal idea would still be to change POS mechanics so that alliances cannot afford to send a huge blob halfway across the galaxy without having to worry about anything. Moonmining POS should in my opinion not be allowed to have strontium, so they could be easily blown up by smaller fleets, forcing alliances to spread out more to defend or risk losing all that precious moonmining income.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:59:00 - [163] Blobs are not broken. The lag is. Otherwise the unorganized blob wouldn't be able to defeat the smaller but better organized force.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:04:00 - [164] Originally by: Malachon Draco I disagree with your premise that the problem starts with 200-300 people generally and I am pretty sure BoB will back me up on that. They've shown plenty of times that as long as there is some server performance, they can manage themselves pretty well at a fight where it is 200-300 in local, even when they are outnumbered 2 to 1. But ok, I will agree with you that the superblob of 600+ is an issue. The actual number doesn't really matter much, does it? You know as well as I do that if the magical number to create an I-Win button was 500, people would bring 600 or more! Originally by: Malachon Draco But are titans the real solution to that? Personally I think no titan would be mad enough to jump into a system with 600 enemies already in local. And how often does that really happen? I can think of only 2 occasions where such superblobs came into being, the JV1V fight (LV) and the F-T fight in Delve over a year ago. I firmly believe that the THREAT of titans is what keeps it from happening. As I said above, if people get a for-sure win-button, they WILL use it. If you want to get rid of the DD, fine, I have no problem with that as long as you do it without making blobbing an I-Win button. Originally by: Malachon Draco If you think about it, would there be alternatives to titans to prevent such massive blobs? What would happen if instead of a doomsday, ships would explode when they die, causing damage to ships around it. Wouldn't that be a much better way of dealing with huge blobs? A more skilled opponent could be able to start a chain reaction of exploding ships if their enemy flies crappy stuff. If your opponent comes at you with a blob of 50 BS and 100 frigs, blowing up the BS would cause the frigs to blow up due to the exploding BS close to it. Or what about implementing some kind of torpedoes or other weapons with a blast radius? Don't think that'll work. A blob (at least to me) is not a tightly grouped mass of ships susceptible to nearby ships exploding, but the accumulated number on grid. In a lagged battle people spread out quite quickly as keeping formation is mostly impossible. Originally by: Malachon Draco My personal idea would still be to change POS mechanics so that alliances cannot afford to send a huge blob halfway across the galaxy without having to worry about anything. Moonmining POS should in my opinion not be allowed to have strontium, so they could be easily blown up by smaller fleets, forcing alliances to spread out more to defend or risk losing all that precious moonmining income. The problem is that people would still bring a blob to kill those moon-mining pos. Blobbing would again be an I-Win button as you'd have to respons very quickly. I'll not even go into the TZ problem.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:07:00 - [165] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/04/2008 10:08:11 Originally by: Traeon Blobs are not broken. The lag is. Otherwise the unorganized blob wouldn't be able to defeat the smaller but better organized force. True, but do you really think CCP can fix lag? Lag is not going to go away. Lag makes blobbing an I-Win tactic. Titans makes blobbing risky. So what is your solution? Currently titans keep blobs in check (sort of a balance of terror). If you remove them, blobs are free to run rampant! EDIT: Btw, this is the wrong forum. Should be in features and ideas. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:08:00 - [166] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Traeon Blobs are not broken. The lag is. Otherwise the unorganized blob wouldn't be able to defeat the smaller but better organized force. True, but do you really think CCP can fix lag? Lag is not going to go away. Lag makes blobbing an I-Win tactic. Titans makes blobbing risky. So what is your solution? Currently titans keep blobs in check (sort of a balance of terror). If you remove them, blobs are free to run rampant! Titans aren't solving the blob issue. They're just raising it to the next level, capital blobs and a carrier with 15 fighters creates probably as much lag as 2-3 subcapital ships.
Koyama Ise	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:12:00 - [167] Maybe make it so the DDD reactivate timer also counts for the system. So you can't active a DD in the system for the amount of time it takes before you can reactivate the DDD on the Titan. This won't completely remove the "I-Win_Button" but it will at least hinder lame I have a cyno-jammer and a bajillion Titans in system. -------- Yes, I know I'm an alt, what are you going to do about it?
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:13:00 - [168] Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira My post Titans aren't solving the blob issue. They're just raising it to the next level, capital blobs and a carrier with 15 fighters creates probably as much lag as 2-3 subcapital ships. And without titans capital blobs would go away? Also, it seems pretty clear to me that titans ARE solving part of the blob issue. Alliances properly defending their territory using titans and caps force their opponents to use the same on attacking, not just depend on lagging out the system with a lag-blob. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:15:00 - [169] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco If you think about it, would there be alternatives to titans to prevent such massive blobs? What would happen if instead of a doomsday, ships would explode when they die, causing damage to ships around it. Wouldn't that be a much better way of dealing with huge blobs? A more skilled opponent could be able to start a chain reaction of exploding ships if their enemy flies crappy stuff. If your opponent comes at you with a blob of 50 BS and 100 frigs, blowing up the BS would cause the frigs to blow up due to the exploding BS close to it. Or what about implementing some kind of torpedoes or other weapons with a blast radius? Don't think that'll work. A blob (at least to me) is not a tightly grouped mass of ships susceptible to nearby ships exploding, but the accumulated number on grid. In a lagged battle people spread out quite quickly as keeping formation is mostly impossible. Originally by: Malachon Draco My personal idea would still be to change POS mechanics so that alliances cannot afford to send a huge blob halfway across the galaxy without having to worry about anything. Moonmining POS should in my opinion not be allowed to have strontium, so they could be easily blown up by smaller fleets, forcing alliances to spread out more to defend or risk losing all that precious moonmining income. The problem is that people would still bring a blob to kill those moon-mining pos. Blobbing would again be an I-Win button as you'd have to respond very quickly. I'll not even go into the TZ problem.... When people warp, they always end up in tight blobs. It should not be that difficult to maneuver and make people bunch up more, at least for a little while. But it is a point to consider I agree. As for the TZ thing, you do have a point. But I am not convinced the current growing requirement of having titans isn't worse than the alternative requirement of forcing people to have a decent TZ coverage. A side benefit would be in my opinion that it would force people to bunch up much more tightly in 0.0, creating room for new groups. The alliance who can cover more than a single region would be very rare indeed, because their moonmining would be so vulnerable if they spread out too much.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:19:00 - [170] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Kerfira My post Titans aren't solving the blob issue. They're just raising it to the next level, capital blobs and a carrier with 15 fighters creates probably as much lag as 2-3 subcapital ships. And without titans capital blobs would go away? Also, it seems pretty clear to me that titans ARE solving part of the blob issue. Alliances properly defending their territory using titans and caps force their opponents to use the same on attacking, not just depend on lagging out the system with a lag-blob. But that begs the question, is the combination of cynojammer+titans not overkill? Do alliances really need both? And doesn't the titan/blob combination become even more overpowered in defence? How easy do you think it would be to kill a blobby alliance that is huddled in its last region when it has 15 titans?

Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:30:00 - [171] Well I for once only think tons of titans together need to be "nerfed". Well Something like First titan deal 85% of damage they do now ( well yes I think they currently need a SMALL nerf. BS SHOUDL survive witha single DC on MY opiniom, but barely). Then each titan detonated in same grid in a span of 60 minutes is target of stack nerf. So the 4th or 5th titan woudl not even kill cruisers. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:35:00 - [172] Edited by: Berrik Radhok on 01/04/2008 10:36:15 Why not just fix it so supercapitals can't enter any system that has a cynojammer anchored? Problem: Supercaps can't be killed without capitals Solution: Remove their ability to go where enemy capitals can't go Quote: [ 2006.08.25 22:30:46 ] fire 59 > mate, im 230 and 6 ft 3, half caste and train every day
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:38:00 - [173] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic I find it hilarious that everyone else is using their titans. MM and RA and everyone else... and yet, the only people whining about it, are the goons. Everyone else is busy trying to trap them and work around it. There's a lesson there, for all of you. Stop turning this into COAD FFS. This is not about BoB. I know Goons are doing stupid things, I don't give a ****. This is not about BoB even though you seem to believe everything HAS TO BE ABOUT YOU. It is not, get over yourself. Tell me Diana, how do you see 0.0 in a year from now. Can I get a prediction from you how many titans there will be and how that will affect 0.0 gameplay? Malachon, I've engaged in discussions about titans in the past. I agree they're broken. I agree they should be stations / capital killing behemoths. I don't think the dd should do "damage", I DO think it should just be an oversized BOMB (ie, sucks cap in its aoe etc etc etc). What I don't like, and I continue to laugh at - especially at people such as yourselves who say "this isn't about bob" is that the ONLY people WHINING about it are those that are fighting us. How about, less whining? The WAY that people are going about this is what I don't like, Malachon, but unfortunately it seems to work, so I dunno. well this is not supposed to be a political discussion. Otherwise would be "nerf bob titan "etc.. The only politics involved shoudl be situational. THe fact is undeniable, no one can blame bob for usign so many titan they can and their home was at stake. But is also undeniable the most antecipated and likely msot epic confrotnation of eve history became very anti climatic for MOST peopel involved because of titan spammage. For a secodn ignore current war. No future wars at least shoudl have to suffer from such anti climatic thing. Your view of titans is much better than CCP one, by far far far. CCp can solve that or find a magical way that we dotn lage for 30 second when trying to warp out on the sight of a titan. BTW not only goons complain in that. Tri frequently complains on MM titan collection too. So the this iss only goons spinage is a little bit of spinage itself, somethign we don 't need here. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:43:00 - [174] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Vaal Erit I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we? If you can come up with something for that, I'm all for it. I'm not pro-titan as such (though I do like having things to strive for in a game), but I am anti-blob! I simply don't think that lagging out a system with a blob should ever be a valid way to win a battle. Titans are currently to ONLY possible counter in-game against that. Titans only ncreased blobage in this game. Worse jsut made it capital online and to kill even 6-7 carrier together you NEED a bob. They increase blobage because only thing taht can eal witht itans are only killable by blobing. THe resolution of blobign wont come by area of effect damage. Only way to solve blob is giving an advantage on beign a small force, like STEALTHness, but that woudl require the local nerf etc... ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
0mega	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:50:00 - [175] Originally by: Vaal Erit I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we? It all boils down to how you define 'blobbing'. How many players is 'too many'? 50? 100? 200? This weekend saw no less than 108 capital ships and 150 battleships on one side, at once. This is in addition to other supporting ships. Is that a blob? It seems a fair bit larger than the typical fleet, although it could be that only ships smaller than BS count as a blob. Previous comments from devs indicate that the issue with large fleets is simply the exponential load associated with many players sharing the same node at the same time. This has nothing to do with what ship they are flying. Now as titans will kill in one hit the majority of sub-capital ships, and only a very small number will survive 2 doomsdays, how do titans counter blobs? Those attempting to overcome multiple titans must take one of the folliowing broad approaches: a) Bring a substantial number of capitals in place of sub-capitals. Yup, a dreadnought blob. This is has been discussed to death as a direction very few want EVE to go in. b) Bring substantially more sub-capitals than the enemy, and commit them in seperate groups. Now if you're doing this, isn't it 'blobbing'? The presence of these extra pilots is adding to the server load in exactly the way devs want to avoid. c) Have multiple spare ships per pilot, and swap into them as their first ship is sacrificed to a doomsday. This brings up 2 issues. First, how many players are going to be buying multiple ships with the intention of losing most of them without firing a shot or affecting the battle in any way? Secondly, dozens of pilots getting blown up then immediately boarding new ships is a plethora of session changes on an already beleaguered node. Those of you with any experience in 0.0 alliance warfare will know that session changes (particularly jumping into a system) is by far the biggest cause of lag. There we have 3 broad counters to massed titans. The first takes the game in an unpopular and unintended direction as sub-capitals are abandoned for Capitals-Online. The other two solutions directly result in exactly the kind of blob-lag titans were supposedly introduced to discourage. The next common arguement to this is the 'hay why not hit multiple targets at once'. Well no, thats not possible under current game mechanics. The defender has full control over stront timings for starbases. Even assuming an attacker manages to get multiple locations into reinforced and come out at the same time, a defender covering a small, tight area of space can move all titans (along with their supporting fleet) almost instantly. Titans can hold the fuel to do this ad nauseum, while lesser capitals on the attacking side are constrained with smaller cargo space for this. And again, you're looking at more lag as large fleets are redirected to other systems, bringing massed session changes with them. ....
0mega	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:51:00 - [176] Why are all titans practically identical? Carriers have racial bonuses to their own logistics modules. Dreadnoughts have their racial weapons systems and the advantages/disadvantages associated with those. Command ships give bonuses to their racial warfare links. Almost every specialist ship class brings new abilities appropriate to their race. Titans bring a damage type and nothing else. There is also a glaring inconsistency in how titans counter sub-capitals. Dreadnoughts were introduced with large penalities to scan resolution and tracking speed in order to prevent them engaging smaller ships with their massive dps. Carriers and motherships were given higher scan resolution, and dev blogs have indicated upcoming alternate fighter types so that they aren't equally effective against all targets. Carriers also need supporting fleets to quickly tackle enemy ships and prevent them escaping before being destroyed by drones. Motherships recieved a remote ecm burst to counter sub-capitals, but this is still restricted by the fact that it is non-lethal and must be locked on a target to be used. Titans have none of these drawbacks. They are equally effective against 1000 battleships as against 1000 rookie ships. There is no stacking penalty, meaning multiple titans directly counter the interdiction ships needed to lock them down. They do not need to lock a target or track it to damage it. They hit anything within range to lock the titan. They can fit a cloaking device, guard a location while hidden from view and attack immediately for full effect with no penalty. They have little need for sustained tackling, as their first blow is almost always the final blow. AoE weapons that cause high damage, at high range, with no penalties to stacking while being equally effective against all classes are inherently broken. It seems far more plausible that a ship intended to support its fleet would provide a non-lethal support mechanism, such as AoE electronic warfare effects that lock down and disable opponents rather than killing them outright. If CCP are serious about making capital ships into fleet support vessels rather than the focus of a force, titans and their doomsday effects are top of the list for a review. A weapon whose direct counters all involve major limitations to current gameplay is a bad sign for any MMO.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:02:00 - [177] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira But that begs the question, is the combination of cynojammer+titans not overkill? Do alliances really need both? And doesn't the titan/blob combination become even more overpowered in defence? How easy do you think it would be to kill a blobby alliance that is huddled in its last region when it has 15 titans? If you kill their morale, even 15 titans will not help them as they will not have the support fleet needed to keep it up.... The titan pilots would then leave and the alliance would explode just as has happened so often in EVE's history. If you HAVEN'T killed their morale, what makes you think that they SHOULD be chased out of their last region? If you think they should, then essentially you're saying that out-blobbing someone is a viable tactic... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:08:00 - [178] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Titans only ncreased blobage in this game. Worse jsut made it capital online and to kill even 6-7 carrier together you NEED a bob. They increase blobage because only thing taht can eal witht itans are only killable by blobing. I totally disagree. Titans discourage blobbing as blobbing becomes too risky. An oh, titans are not really killable by blobbing. 49- proved that.... Only caps can do it.... Originally by: Kagura Nikon THe resolution of blobign wont come by area of effect damage. Only way to solve blob is giving an advantage on beign a small force, like STEALTHness, but that woudl require the local nerf etc... If blobbing is an I-Win button because of the lag it produces, people will choose that over any advantage in being a small force. Players are herd animals that way..... The only solution for blobbing is the stick, not the carrot. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:13:00 - [179] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira But that begs the question, is the combination of cynojammer+titans not overkill? Do alliances really need both? And doesn't the titan/blob combination become even more overpowered in defence? How easy do you think it would be to kill a blobby alliance that is huddled in its last region when it has 15 titans? If you kill their morale, even 15 titans will not help them as they will not have the support fleet needed to keep it up.... The titan pilots would then leave and the alliance would explode just as has happened so often in EVE's history. If you HAVEN'T killed their morale, what makes you think that they SHOULD be chased out of their last region? If you think they should, then essentially you're saying that out-blobbing someone is a viable tactic... Depends on how you define outblobbing. If this is a better alliance with only 150 pilots who gets killed because 1500 noobs in frigs and cruisers descend on them and make them die a laggy death, then you have a point and I don't mind an instrument preventing that. But if its 250 pilots vs their 150, but those 250 bring in a T2 sniperfleet and rip them to shreds with it, then I think having 15 titans in itself should not save the 150 from the 250 good PvPers. Ultimately the whole game mechanic is flawed. It escalates from the moment you need POS warfare. In order to kill a POS the attacker needs a big fleet. Which leads the defender to bring a big fleet to defend. If the defender has a titan or multiple ones then the attacker doesn't just need a big fleet, he needs a huge bigass overwhelming fleet. Because if you don't bring a huge bigass overwhelming fleet, the defending titans will wipe out your subcapitals and then the subcapital defending fleet will go to town on your capitals. And all this leads to is a huge armsrace, with ever escalating numbers because people won't commit their capital fleets unless they are sure of victory. So you end up with capital blobs of 100+ capitals supporting several titans. Good luck breaking the titan tank with a dreadnaughtfleet if they have 30+ carriers and moms remote repping the titan while the defending dreads slaughter the ones trying to kill the titan. This cannot be good for the game in the long run. You just see more and more people burning out on it.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:14:00 - [180] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Kagura Nikon Titans only ncreased blobage in this game. Worse jsut made it capital online and to kill even 6-7 carrier together you NEED a bob. They increase blobage because only thing taht can eal witht itans are only killable by blobing. I totally disagree. Titans discourage blobbing as blobbing becomes too risky. An oh, titans are not really killable by blobbing. 49- proved that.... Only caps can do it.... Originally by: Kagura Nikon THe resolution of blobign wont come by area of effect damage. Only way to solve blob is giving an advantage on beign a small force, like STEALTHness, but that woudl require the local nerf etc... If blobbing is an I-Win button because of the lag it produces, people will choose that over any advantage in being a small force. Players are herd animals that way..... The only solution for blobbing is the stick, not the carrot. on that i disagree 120% The stick wotn solve never. Because if youy dotn bring blbo you loose anyway. If you brign blbo there is a chance lag may lock your enemy and you might win. What must be done to solve this is givign the non blob a chance to in. REducing blbo chance to win makes nothign, because it is sstill the only chance to win, so will still be choosen and in fact reinforced with more ships to increase this chance a tiny bit. BTW I don 't know if people noticed this. But we have a world with so many titans that s imple group like BOB and MM if combined coudl DD even capital ships ( their combined fleets of titans can already vaporize a nidhoggur)! That is becomeing really stupid. In 6 months even using carriers will be impossible and only motherships will be usable. Can anyone really tell me this is good for the game and enjoyment of the player base? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:19:00 - [181] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Kagura Nikon Titans only ncreased blobage in this game. Worse jsut made it capital online and to kill even 6-7 carrier together you NEED a bob. They increase blobage because only thing taht can eal witht itans are only killable by blobing. I totally disagree. Titans discourage blobbing as blobbing becomes too risky. An oh, titans are not really killable by blobbing. 49- proved that.... Only caps can do it.... I think your statement of titans discourage blobbing needs to be adjusted a bit. I would say titans discourage fighting, unless you bring the biggest ******* blob in the game. So yes, titans discourage blobbing in the sense that they discourage 200 man fleets from attacking you. But since anything smaller than a 200 man fleet is utterly pointless, nobody will turn up at all. OR if they turn up, it will be with a 700 man fleet if at all possible, in order to make sure no titan could even jump into the system. If I had to plan the next attack on BoB, I would make sure I had at least 700 people ready to camp the system for 2 straight days, making all warfare impossible and giving you an almost guaranteed kill on any titan who would come into the system after you filled it with 700 of your own people just because you could kill it before it ever even loaded the screen. Titans discourage fighting much more than they discourage blobbing. Since outside of blobbing there is no counter, and blobbing itself wont work unless you bring an ungodly number of people, therefore titans discourage fighting. Now what I would like to see a mechanic that discourages blobbing (in the 400+ fleetsize range) but does not discourage fighting (in fleets up to about 200 people).
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:29:00 - [182] Edited by: Kingwood on 01/04/2008 11:29:26 Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Kerfira Nope, not trolling. Just thinking that game mechanics that work fairly well shouldn't be changed just because a group of sub-par players can't overcome them. Basically the only reason you are making these argument is because you think you're 'entitled' to win by blobbing. Titans prevent that, so you want them removed. Killing an online cynojammer on a fully faction fit large POS guarded by 10+ Titans is something that is easy to do? Because they cannot accomplish such a feat means they are subpar? Originally by: Kingwood No, it's primarily goons and Malachon who'd been arguing against everything BoB related since ASCN was killed. No, you need to read the thread, I saw two BoB posts that admitted Titans were in need of a change. That is quite a statement seeing as they apparently have a huge upper hand in the Titan department (or at least the known active titan department) Originally by: Kingwood And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. This is just a scare scenario with no base in how the game seem to be developing to support it. If it becomes a problem, CCP will handle it. No signs it will be though. From the MANY posts of old players, they will say that cruisers were once rare, now they are common, BS were rare, now common, Carriers were rare, now common. I saw a 15 man TRI MS gang, MS are pretty common. Logic dictates that soon Titans will be common. CCP has already stated numberous times in interviews and live dev blogs and the failed carrier nerf that they want to mess around with capital ships. You are wrong. I think Kerfira really thinks that blobbing is lame and that Titans are the only successful counter to a blob of ships. This is a GOOD point. But, instead I think that a non-capital anti-blob platform would be best as then everyone has an equal footing to kill blobs. Killing unorganized blobs is awesome, I love it. But let's make it a bit move challenging than warp to alt -> pres butan shall we? Those statements are not from me. Well, 1 sentence, but I think you got something mixed up there.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:33:00 - [183] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 11:36:08 Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:57:00 - [184] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:00:16 There will always be blobbing as certain types of ppl will always need to rely on numbers, but multiple Titans discourage mindless conventional ship blobbing as you cannot just warp in at everybody's perfect optimal and start plugging away. You need plenty of tacklers in reserve either cloaked on grid out of range of the DDD or in a safe spot/pos ready to warp in and replace a pal who gets popped. You need to to use capitals to take out the titans with the dreads doing damage and the carriers to be nos/nut and bumping the titans. The conventional fleet can either engage the oppositions hostile fleet or not depending on how the oppositions fleet is positioned for example they may not wish to DDD their own BS fleet or the BS fleet may be far enough away from the titans to get a position that is outside DDD range. Now this idea is workable without having a titan of your own but if you did have one or two you could easily pop the oppositions BS fleet and own the field. The issue here is that the ppl with capital fleets, titans and conventional fleets big enough to plan such a campaign do not have the balls to do it because of the risk involved to there own high value ships so they are crying to CCP for a nerf so they can kill them in easy mode.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:05:00 - [185] Oh hey Maralt, 'sup. I missed your mindless dribble. (You're in the wrong forum)
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:09:00 - [186] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:10:00 Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey Maralt, 'sup. I missed your mindless dribble. (You're in the wrong forum) At least i post content you worthless troll. If you disagree with the basic idea i posted your more that able to actually post a counter argument or stfu and go back to caod where you insults and trolly comments are accepted. Let me guess your not gonna bother.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:15:00 - [187] Originally by: Traeon Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. Yup, that's the beauty of it. The blob of sub-capitals is discouraged. Problem at least partially solved as caps can now fight it out without the laggy presence of sub-caps. I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... Originally by: Traeon In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless. In simple words so even Traeon can understand: Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
0mega GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:21:00 - [188] Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:25:00 - [189] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 12:26:09 Aside from pulling made-up statistics out of nowhere, how often or not it happens is not relevant. If it's broken it's broken. Since I am personally affected and so are people around me I'm posting here. That is all - if you think the argument is not worthy of discussion then why are you posting here?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:28:00 - [190] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 12:29:40 Originally by: 0mega Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system. In most of the POS wars ive fought i jumped the capitals into the system then gang warped them to a grid loading position (to see if the grid could handle things and if not i jumped out) and then into combat range. Have capital ship tactics changed so soon cos i got sick of blob wars last year and started running small gangs instead?.

Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:49:00 - [191] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Traeon Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. Yup, that's the beauty of it. The blob of sub-capitals is discouraged. Problem at least partially solved as caps can now fight it out without the laggy presence of sub-caps. I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... Originally by: Traeon In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless. In simple words so even Traeon can understand: Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... And how is this good for a game where 95% of players cannot fly capitals? Why not simply forbidden < 20 M SP chars from entering null sec? The game Must focus on as many peopel as possible having fun! Titans go against this! If you have never seen a capital fleet blob a system completely you must undock more times. 100 capital fleets are not RARE anymore. And 100 carriers and moms spitting an average of 15 fighters are really much more system stressing than 300 Battleships. Also 99% of fights in 0.0 are NOT blobs are roaming gangs, so your 99% argument is void. 90% of the BLOB fights involve a large number of capital ships. Exactly because of titans. The blob would have exactly same size without titans. EXACLTY. The only difference is that you brigna cruisers instead of aproper ship if you are under threat of 7 titans. Neither I, neither no one else would ever NOT appear in battle because of the titans. They will just get cheap stuff, like BC or cheapest BS. That helps in NOTHIGN to diminish BLOB. In fact just makes worse the effect. If you have ever been at the Point Zero of a DD detonation over a fleet you know that. When a hundred ships die at same time the node get useless for at least half an hour. Titans are bad for this game on every concievable way. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Voculus	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:19:00 - [192] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. No, adding them to the game in the first place was stupid. There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. Titans were a poorly-developed idea, and the Doomsday Device in particular does not make Eve a better game - it makes it worse. I don't have eight Titans at my command. If I did, I have no doubt I'd get a thrill from being able to nuke anything with no contest. But as it is, I'm not drunk with such power, and can see the bigger, longer-term picture. Several months from now, when your alliance is deploying 16 Titans, and 50+ motherships at a single, cyno-jammed POS, the severity of the problem CCP created will only come into sharper focus. _________________________________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:33:00 - [193] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/04/2008 13:33:23 Originally by: 0mega Originally by: Kerfira I've yet to see a cap blob capable of lagging a system out.... F-TE1T 12 months ago. 150 defending capitals waiting on grid. 300 attacking capitals jump in. 100 attacking capitals make it into system. The caps were NOT a big contributor to what was lagging that one out (yes, I was there)! The multiple 300+ man conventional fleets running around all over the area did that WAY before the caps started playing! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:40:00 - [194] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Sub-cap fights are still 99% of the fights that goes on in 0.0. I hardly see that as 'useless'.... Also 99% of fights in 0.0 are NOT blobs are roaming gangs, so your 99% argument is void. How many blob'by fights happen per week? 2-3? How many minor/major fleet skirmishes happens? Hundreds! 99% is a fair and accurate figure. Originally by: Kagura Nikon 90% of the BLOB fights involve a large number of capital ships. Exactly because of titans. The blob would have exactly same size without titans. EXACLTY. The only difference is that you brigna cruisers instead of aproper ship if you are under threat of 7 titans. Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! These people will find something else to do while the caps slug it out (ie. don't give me the lame excuse that they'll quit because of it)..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:41:00 - [195] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 13:43:44 Originally by: Voculus No, adding them to the game in the first place was stupid. There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. Titans were a poorly-developed idea, and the Doomsday Device in particular does not make Eve a better game - it makes it worse. It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:57:00 - [196] Quote: It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. How about you post with your main before accusing others of not having fought with or against titans?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:58:00 - [197] Originally by: Traeon Aside from pulling made-up statistics out of nowhere, how often or not it happens is not relevant. If it's broken it's broken. Except you haven't proven it is! You're just claiming it is! Does it prevent blobbing? Yes it does because people don't want to go where it is! Was it implemented to be a counter to blobbing? Yes it was. CCP said so at the time afaik! Can you prevent blobbing in any other way than by punishing people for doing it? No. People are herd animals! (qualified yes to complete rewrite of sov mechanics, but noone has made any useful suggestions yet as to how) So, is it working as intended? Yes! The only thing wrong is people's aversion against challenges..... I don't mind fighting against titan(s) (yes, I'd include plural. If my enemy has several in a cyno-jammed system and a support fleet capable of defending it, I would either: a. Come back when they're not there, kill the jammer quickly, hold the system while I kill the POS b. Try to lure them away by attacking somewhere else c. Break their morale some more by demonstrating to them they're not good enough pilots in other battles. Eventually too few of them will show up. ..and in any case look I'd forward to the possibility to strike a hefty morale blow if I manage to kill one of them... It's a challenge, even a big one. If I don't manage it, I'm not as good as them. If I manage it, I've proven I'm the better gamer. (this is assuming similar sizes of our fleets, incl. titans) Summing up 90% of the arguments in here against titans can be done quite simply: "My bigger blob can't kill the XXX-YY enemy system because there's titans in it making out-blobbing a dangerous tactic. It's not fair!!!" Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [198] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:02:39 Originally by: Traeon Quote: It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish. How about you post with your main before accusing others of not having fought with or against titans? If the best you can do to refute my post is an alt insult perhaps you should move to CAOD as this forum/thread is a place where content is > troll.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [199] Same for you as well Kerfira - before you accuse anyone of not being skilled enough to deal with titans, post with your main so we can see how much of an authority you really are in this field.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [200] Originally by: Voculus There is no skill, no strategy, and no cunning involved in pressing a single key on your keyboard, and sending an entire enemy fleet home in pods. You're wrong on this! There's a lot of skill involved on the Titan pilots side in how to get into position to press that button. Similarly there is a lot of skill involved on the other party's side not allow the titan pilot that chance. Big game, big risk! The most skilled wins hugely. If the titan pilot is most skilled, he dispatches the enemy fleet. If the opposing FC is most skilled, he might very well bag himself a titan trophy! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:03:00 - [201] Originally by: Traeon About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion. Whilst I respect your math, I think it still reinforces my point. Reduce the damage they do and people will just bring more of them. And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. And sorry, if you now say "but the lag", well that's just tough. The game has to be balanced AROUND lag, not FOR lag. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:03:00 - [202] Originally by: maralt ... How about you post with your BoB main before you lecture me on PvP tactics? You say blob spamming takes no skill, but DD spamming does? Seriously, are you for real? _________________________________________________________
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:04:00 - [203] Originally by: Traeon Same for you as well Kerfira - before you accuse anyone of not being skilled enough to deal with titans, post with your main so we can see how much of an authority you really are in this field. Bla, bla, bla.... Traeon: "I'm out of arguments so I'll try to play the 'alt' card".... Make arguments against what we're saying, not that lame 'alt' excuse... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:04:00 - [204] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: A Squirrel hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. Sovereignty Level 4 You broke ours, what's the problem? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:07:00 - [205] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:10:33 Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. And of course its down to the guys who are trying to kill the titan to stay out of its DDD range while having cloakers or spies getting position on it for tacklers and cap ships so you can pop it. Without the titan eve 0.0 warfare would degrade into blob spamming cheap ships over and over until one side gets sick of it, the titan prevents that and forces large fleets to commit lot of high value assets to kill lots of high value assets while also forcing them to position them correctly on the field and use reserves, in other words fight battles tactically and with the risk of losing high value ships to kill high value ships instead of just blobbing with crappy low value rubbish. How about you post with your BoB main before you lecture me on PvP tactics? You say blob spamming takes no skill, but DD spamming does? Seriously, are you for real? If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. I did actually post summat to that effect but you snipped it out for some reason. I will put it back and also refer you to post 188 for another reference.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:11:00 - [206] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traeon About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion. Whilst I respect your math, I think it still reinforces my point. Reduce the damage they do and people will just bring more of them. And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. And sorry, if you now say "but the lag", well that's just tough. The game has to be balanced AROUND lag, not FOR lag. Point accepted about warping out and frigates.. but on the other hand, what would be so bad about a tanked frig surviving a doomsday? Also.. if diminishing returns are added, it doesn't matter how many titans are on the field, after a few it will make no difference to the effectiveness of doomsdays.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:30:00 - [207] Originally by: maralt If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. You won't be in a dread thanks to a cyno-jammer. I think you clearly missed the biggest reason this thread even exists. You would find yourself in a non-capital, and the Titan gang isn't going to fire off Doomsday weapons at nothing - they'll be firing them on your position, and then you'll be spinning your pod in a station somewhere. There is no high-degree of skill involved in maneuvering the Titans in that scenario. Once they nuke all of your ships, your pods, your drones, and your wrecks, what exactly is going to be left to threaten them, much less destroy them? _________________________________________________________
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:41:00 - [208] Originally by: Dianabolic And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. Do you think it could possibly be a case of ill thought-out game design when anyone not in a capital ship needs to spend their battle warping in and out of the grid on command? How much can sub-capital pilots possibly contribute when faced with a doomsday every 7.5 minutes? What about every 3 minutes? Every 30 seconds? We both know it will reach that point one day. Originally by: Kerfira There's a lot of skill involved on the Titan pilots side in how to get into position to press that button There's alot of repetitive work (hauling minerals and components) ISK (buying minerals, blueprints and skillbooks) and time (training long skills). But nowhere into that factors skill. Just simple determination to reach a goal. Now if every titan pilot had to pass a certifcation to fly the ship, you would be right. But as it stands I'm looking at a game where industrial alliances with absolutely no recognised PvP prowess are making titans for private sale. There is also at least one individual in EVE with _two_ personal, privately-financed titans. Please don't confuse skill with the ability to funnel isk into a series of repetitive tasks.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:43:00 - [209] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 14:43:53 Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt If im in a tanked dread or over 250 away in a conventional ship then il happily watch 8 DDD go off then bring in my fleet to wipe out those titans. I did actually post summat to that effect but you snipped it out for some reason. I will put it back and also refer you to post 188 for another reference. You won't be in a dread thanks to a cyno-jammer. I think you clearly missed the biggest reason this thread even exists. You would find yourself in a non-capital, and the Titan gang isn't going to fire off Doomsday weapons at nothing - they'll be firing them on your position, and then you'll be spinning your pod in a station somewhere. There is no high-degree of skill involved in maneuvering the Titans in that scenario. Once they nuke all of your ships, your pods, your drones, and your wrecks, what exactly is going to be left to threaten them, much less destroy them? Like in QY6?. Anyway im sure this thread was about "multiple titans and DDD" as the title says not "cyno jammers multiple titans and DDD" which is or was a total separate thread altogether. I think its you who are in the wrong thread bud
NeverL	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:54:00 - [210] why didnt u attack nol when we were in qy6? how many titans were in nol? 16? if u dont know how to do something, u whine. but ur supposed to think about it and find a solution, thats what we, grownups do! __ We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction - General Douglas MacArthur

Voculus	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:55:00 - [211] Originally by: maralt The seers of truth were not in QY6, but I know I'm right. Were there 8 Titans in QY6? You claim to know how to survive 8 Titans in nothing bigger than a battleship, and we're all waiting with a bated breath for you to actually present some plausible scenario in which that could happen. _________________________________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:00:00 - [212] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 15:03:54 Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt The seers of truth were not in QY6, but I know I'm right. Were there 8 Titans in QY6? You claim to know how to survive 8 Titans in nothing bigger than a battleship, and we're all waiting with a bated breath for you to actually present some plausible scenario in which that could happen. 1. Ive made no such claim about a non capital ship surviving 8 DDD. 2. The op has screenies of 8 titans in QY6 or at least that is the claim. 3. If your resorting to alt insults i suggest you head to caod.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:13:00 - [213] Originally by: Traeon Point accepted about warping out and frigates.. but on the other hand, what would be so bad about a tanked frig surviving a doomsday? Frigates are dead easy to replace, what's wrong with them being blown up? ;) And anyway, frigates aren't supposed to tank. Their defense is speed and agility, no? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:15:00 - [214] Edited by: Dianabolic on 01/04/2008 15:15:14 Originally by: xttz Originally by: Dianabolic And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. Do you think it could possibly be a case of ill thought-out game design when anyone not in a capital ship needs to spend their battle warping in and out of the grid on command? How much can sub-capital pilots possibly contribute when faced with a doomsday every 7.5 minutes? What about every 3 minutes? Every 30 seconds? We both know it will reach that point one day. xttz, please, if you're going to refer to my posts I would appreciate it if you could read the posts I've made previously. Yes, I do think warping in and out is appropriate. Situational awareness is what being an fc is all about. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:23:00 - [215] OK maralt, let's go back to the OP: Quote: The game is broken. Nothing can counter eight Titans. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. I think he made his case. The case to be made in opposition to this claim, has not yet been made! As for alt-posting CAOD insults, I'm doing nothing of the sort. You're likely a BoB alt, and your counter-arguments are merely motivated by your desire to hold space and fill your killboard. You can hide your identity behind an alt, but not your motives. _________________________________________________________
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:26:00 - [216] Originally by: Voculus OK maralt, let's go back to the OP: Quote: The game is broken. Nothing can counter eight Titans. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. I think he made his case. The case to be made in opposition to this claim, has not yet been made! As for alt-posting CAOD insults, I'm doing nothing of the sort. You're likely a BoB alt, and your counter-arguments are merely motivated by your desire to hold space and fill your killboard. You can hide your identity behind an alt, but not your motives. Here is post 188 you must have missed it: You need plenty of tacklers in reserve either cloaked on grid out of range of the DDD or in a safe spot/pos ready to warp in and replace a pal who gets popped. You need to to use capitals to take out the titans with the dreads doing damage and the carriers to be nos/nut and bumping the titans. The conventional fleet can either engage the oppositions hostile fleet or not depending on how the oppositions fleet is positioned for example they may not wish to DDD their own BS fleet or the BS fleet may be far enough away from the titans to get a position that is outside DDD range. Now this idea is workable without having a titan of your own but if you did have one or two you could easily pop the oppositions BS fleet and own the field. The issue here is that the ppl with capital fleets, titans and conventional fleets big enough to plan such a campaign do not have the balls to do it because of the risk involved to there own high value ships so they are crying to CCP for a nerf so they can kill them in easy mode. Nuff said.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:56:00 - [217] Originally by: Voculus OK maralt, let's go back to the OP: Quote: The game is broken. Nothing can counter eight Titans. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. I think he made his case. The case to be made in opposition to this claim, has not yet been made! As for alt-posting CAOD insults, I'm doing nothing of the sort. You're likely a BoB alt, and your counter-arguments are merely motivated by your desire to hold space and fill your killboard. You can hide your identity behind an alt, but not your motives. To be honest, I've purposely ignored the OP and just engaged in the rest of the thread. Why? Because maralt (god help us) is quite correct. Anyone dumb enough to fall for EIGHT (or any number above one) doomsdays is indeed an idiot and doesn't deserve to win. And my motive isn't to "pad the killboard", it's to counter pathetic arguments that ARE made out of "whaaambulances". Reikoku Diplomatic Forums Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 15:59:00 - [218] Originally by: Dianabolic Because maralt (god help us) is quite correct. WOW saving this printing and sticking to fridge with my girls allowed magnets.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:28:00 - [219] Originally by: Dianabolic Anyone dumb enough to fall for EIGHT (or any number above one) doomsdays is indeed an idiot and doesn't deserve to win. And my motive isn't to "pad the killboard", it's to counter pathetic arguments that ARE made out of "whaaambulances". That's not an argument. That's your typical brand of CAOD-style rabble-rousing. Do you have any other material? I could say that people caught cheating and sworn to secrecy by CCP of their prior knowledge of ingame events don't deserve to win. Maralt, first off, let's dispense with the notion that anything in Eve takes balls. Firefighting takes balls. Being a rifelman in the Marines takes balls. Sitting in fornt of a computer, playing a game does not. Secondly, your plan of action is pure folly. You can't warp a fleet, especially in a laggy system near 8 Titans, and have them survive. There will be no NOS, no neutralizing, and no bumping. There will be just killmails, followed by more killmails of the opposing capitals who just lost their support. What difference does it make if you have a wave in reserve? The Titan support will be aligned at speed, and will warp out as soon as the enemy reserves show up again. Said fleet will be cooked before they can even target anything. They'll simply be vaporized with the push of a single button, as well. You could have yet another reserve waiting in the wings, and guess what happens to them? Is there anything in all that not being made clear enough? _________________________________________________________
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:41:00 - [220] Ah, that little chestnut. My greatest non-quote ever. A shame you've ignored the rest of the discussion, but hey, what else can we expect for those inept enough to feel that way Reikoku Diplomatic Forums

Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:46:00 - [221] Originally by: Voculus ...especially in a laggy system... You can leave this thread now. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:48:00 - [222] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 16:52:19 Originally by: Voculus Secondly, your plan of action is pure folly. You can't warp a fleet, especially in a laggy system near 8 Titans, and have them survive. There will be no NOS, no neutralizing, and no bumping. There will be just killmails, followed by more killmails of the opposing capitals who just lost their support. What difference does it make if you have a wave in reserve? The Titan support will be aligned at speed, and will warp out as soon as the enemy reserves show up again. Said fleet will be cooked before they can even target anything. They'll simply be vaporized with the push of a single button, as well. You could have yet another reserve waiting in the wings, and guess what happens to them? Is there anything in all that not being made clear enough? 1. The only thing that is not clear is your comprehension of what i clearly wrote now i will give you the benefit of the doubt and say your ignorance is not deliberate and give you a clue with the rest of my post. 2. I clearly state that the conventional fleet should not be warped in range of the titans (unless ofc the hostile fleet is stationary or bubbled) or in a position that can be engaged out of range of the DDD. 3. You get lag with or without titans so if as you say the hostile support fleet has warped off for what ever reason it is a cap vs cap fight until they warp back in (to the same lag btw) and so do your conventional ships. 4. Your entire whine about titans relies on the FC leading your fleet being a suicidal moron who warps his conventional ships well into range of the titans DDD and getting multiple DDD's in his face so in that case i suggest you remove him and get a new one cos he sucks.
Voculus	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:51:00 - [223] As usual, Dianabolic, you're a complete waste of time to even talk to. Dogs have higher powers of reasoning and logic than you. Maralt, I will say this: In any engagement where no Titans are present, then what you say is 100% correct. There are a great many tools available to the opposing FCs in order to turn the tide of the battle their way. What the Doomsday Weapon does, is render those options null and void. When you factor in 8 Titans, or even 20, becuase that day is coming, then attacking that force is an exercise in futility. _________________________________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Voculus	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:54:00 - [224] Quote: 2. I clearly state that the conventional fleet should not warped in range of the titans unless ofc the hostile fleet is stationary or bubbled or in a position that can be engaged out of range of the DDD. What if your target or targets are closely guarded by multiple Titans? Go home? Log out? _________________________________________________________ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:54:00 - [225] Originally by: Voculus As usual, Dianabolic, you're a complete waste of time to even talk to. Dogs have higher powers of reasoning and logic than you. Maralt, I will say this: In any engagement where no Titans are present, then what you say is 100% correct. There are a great many tools available to the opposing FCs in order to turn the tide of the battle their way. What the Doomsday Weapon does, is render those options null and void. When you factor in 8 Titans, or even 20, becuase that day is coming, then attacking that force is an exercise in futility. i suggest you tell your FC to read point 2 and 4 of my last post or replace him.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:59:00 - [226] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:04:14 Originally by: Voculus Quote: 2. I clearly state that the conventional fleet should not warped in range of the titans unless ofc the hostile fleet is stationary or bubbled or in a position that can be engaged out of range of the DDD. What if your target or targets are closely guarded by multiple Titans? Go home? Log out? 1. I had no idea that dreads had to fight at uber close range bud i mean im sure they can hit at max range easily with the correct fittings and thus forcing the defending support to move closer as only a few bs in the game can do the max snipe range. Also if the supporting dreads move in close to fight your now long range dreads your support fleet can engage them well out of range of the DDD. 2. Bubble the hostile conventional fleet forcing the titan to pop his own fleet if he wants to pop yours. 3. Use your own titan to pop the bubbled conventional fleet. Any other questions or do you still wanna play in easy mode?.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:06:00 - [227] Originally by: Voculus As usual, Dianabolic, you're a complete waste of time to even talk to. Dogs have higher powers of reasoning and logic than you. Now who's got the caod in 'em? Keep it up, Voculus, you can sit next to those whom are whining because they can't think of a way round a problem, so want the problem changed to suit them. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:07:00 - [228] Originally by: maralt Any other questions?. Yes, actually. Why are you assuming such a simplistic view of fleet warfare, and why are you not taking into account, the rest of the Titan support not doing anything in the fight? You don't think with inties and covert ships, that the Titan gang could not assume positions around the enemy capitals in order to sufficiently cover all the angles from which their support may warp in? _________________________________________________________
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:13:00 - [229] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:04:14 Originally by: Voculus Quote: 2. I clearly state that the conventional fleet should not warped in range of the titans unless ofc the hostile fleet is stationary or bubbled or in a position that can be engaged out of range of the DDD. What if your target or targets are closely guarded by multiple Titans? Go home? Log out? 1. I had no idea that dreads had to fight at uber close range bud i mean im sure they can hit at max range easily with the correct fittings and thus forcing the defending support to move closer as only a few bs in the game can do the max snipe range. Also if the supporting dreads move in close to fight your now long range dreads your support fleet can engage them well out of range of the DDD. 2. Bubble the hostile conventional fleet forcing the titan to pop his own fleet if he wants to pop yours. 3. Use your own titan to pop the bubbled conventional fleet. Any other questions or do you still wanna play in easy mode?. What DREADs? You have no dreads until you explode the jammer that is guarded by 8 titans. The only way to deal with that is bring such a blob that even the titans lag to omuch to ge server respnse when they DD. In other words... crappy metagamming. Yes warping out should be the solution, problem is, its impossible since the game cannot handle 100 ships warping out at same time without a 10-20 sec lag when there are other 200 ships in system as well. And don't tell me then don bring so many ships, because the defenders alone are enough to make the node crawl. What I never understood is, why DD always seems unaffected by server lag? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:16:00 - [230] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: maralt Originally by: Voculus Quote: 2. I clearly state that the conventional fleet should not warped in range of the titans unless ofc the hostile fleet is stationary or bubbled or in a position that can be engaged out of range of the DDD. What if your target or targets are closely guarded by multiple Titans? Go home? Log out? 1. I had no idea that dreads had to fight at uber close range bud i mean im sure they can hit at max range easily with the correct fittings and thus forcing the defending support to move closer as only a few bs in the game can do the max snipe range. Also if the supporting dreads move in close to fight your now long range dreads your support fleet can engage them well out of range of the DDD. 2. Bubble the hostile conventional fleet forcing the titan to pop his own fleet if he wants to pop yours. 3. Use your own titan to pop the bubbled conventional fleet. Any other questions or do you still wanna play in easy mode?. What DREADs? You have no dreads until you explode the jammer that is guarded by 8 titans. Read the op and understand that this is the multiple titan thread not the jammer thread as it was started due to the assault on QY6.

Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:18:00 - [231] Originally by: Kerfira Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! These people will find something else to do while the caps slug it out (ie. don't give me the lame excuse that they'll quit because of it)..... WRONG! People don't stay away because they cannot simply sit and wait their stations to be lost. They will thrown frigates if needed. So no Blobs are NEVER solved. You sound like someone that have never been on such fights. Because what you describe don't happen. And again, you have ONLY support ships because enemy has a cyno jammer!!! And leaving is not a crap excuse , I know at least 3 persons that are rl friends that left game because of exactly this titan bullexcrement ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:24:00 - [232] Originally by: Voculus Originally by: maralt Any other questions?. Yes, actually. Why are you assuming such a simplistic view of fleet warfare, and why are you not taking into account, the rest of the Titan support not doing anything in the fight? You don't think with inties and covert ships, that the Titan gang could not assume positions around the enemy capitals in order to sufficiently cover all the angles from which their support may warp in? EDIT: I see you added the jab about "Easy mode". Tell me how pressing a single key, wiping out an entire enemy fleet is NOT easy mode? You and your mates are the ones pushing for that - not me. If the titan support moves away from the titans it can be engaged by the friendly support, if the "titan gang" moves around the attacking cap fleet they cannot drop 8 DDD in the same 250km radius making the op's point mute anyway. Look the in and out of this are full of what ifs but the fact remains that the op's "invincible multi titan" crap relies of the conventional fleet warping into range of the titans and sitting still, in other words being totally stupid.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:27:00 - [233] Edited by: Dianabolic on 01/04/2008 17:27:55 Seems to me people are upset about HAVING to lose ships to "finish" an enemy. Gotta say, that's pretty funny. And weak. Yes, one system with 8 titans (or more, whatever) is obviously a critical system to the defender. Right? They're putting upwards of a trillion isk in ships (if you include the support fleet) on the line to defend it and, pending no other target you can attack (because you've pinned the enemy in to ONE system... right?) you either have to throw yourselves on the sword and die trying, or just contain the enemy. Sounds like eve as it should be, tbh, make your choice. (and yet, I still don't like titans dd doing "damage" and have made numerous suggestions to change it). Go figure. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:32:00 - [234] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:34:09 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! WRONG! You should have stopped there cos it went down hill after that. Blobbing/huge scale fleet ops will always be part of eve but the titan forces the blobs/fleets to be fitted correctly, use reserves of tacklers and other ships and also to maneuver there assets properly in order to avoid the weaker ships getting DDD'd. In other words use a more tactical approach to huge scale fleet ops instead of optimal range blob spamming.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:39:00 - [235] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:34:09 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! WRONG! You should have stopped there cos it went down hill after that. Blobbing/huge scale fleet ops will always be part of eve but the titan forces the blobs/fleets to be fitted correctly, use reserves of tacklers and other ships and also to maneuver there assets properly in order to avoid the weaker ships getting DDD'd. In other words use a more tactical approach to huge scale fleet ops instead of optimal range blob spamming. and all those just increase the size of the blob. So i am right that he is wrong. Blobs do not diminish blob, just make more ships needed so more blobs more lag more all of the bad part of eve. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:43:00 - [236] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:45:36 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 17:34:09 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! WRONG! You should have stopped there cos it went down hill after that. Blobbing/huge scale fleet ops will always be part of eve but the titan forces the blobs/fleets to be fitted correctly, use reserves of tacklers and other ships and also to maneuver there assets properly in order to avoid the weaker ships getting DDD'd. In other words use a more tactical approach to huge scale fleet ops instead of optimal range blob spamming. and all those just increase the size of the blob. So i am right that he is wrong. Blobs do not diminish blob, just make more ships needed so more blobs more lag more all of the bad part of eve. PPL will always want or try to bring more ships whether titans are around or not, titans just make them bring better and play better. PS the jammer and lag threads are elsewhere.
ElCoCo	Posted - 2008.04.01 20:20:00 - [237] Edited by: ElCoCo on 01/04/2008 20:28:52 Titans are fine, lag is the problem. Not kidding What else could we have? A limitation of X DDD's on a certain grid for Y period of time? Never gonna happen as one side would simply exploit that. Now how about fixing that frickin overview... can't believe you're arguing about titans when basic things don't work . edit: by lag I mean what few ways you have of countering them (like multiple carriers with remote reps on heavy dictors and so on) can't be utilised. Boink!
Anna Valerios	Posted - 2008.04.01 21:00:00 - [238] lol
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.01 21:08:00 - [239] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/04/2008 21:12:24 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Kerfira Nope, after having been DD'd a few times, people in conventional ships learn to stay away. Ie. blobbing - is - prevented! These people will find something else to do while the caps slug it out (ie. don't give me the lame excuse that they'll quit because of it)..... WRONG! People don't stay away because they cannot simply sit and wait their stations to be lost. They will thrown frigates if needed. So no Blobs are NEVER solved. You sound like someone that have never been on such fights. Because what you describe don't happen. And again, you have ONLY support ships because enemy has a cyno jammer!!! Your arguments are illogical and contradictory. You say that people will show up because their stations might be lost. Then you go on to say that the enemy (with titans) has a cyno jammer... Ehem, if someone is in danger of loosing a station, that means they have sovereignty. If THEY have sov, then the enemy can't have a cyno jammer. Originally by: Kagura Nikon And leaving is not a crap excuse , I know at least 3 persons that are rl friends that left game because of exactly this titan bullexcrement And I know at least seven-eleventy friends who left exactly because of the lag-blobbing titans are meant to prevent. Stupid argument!!! To all the ones who whine about 'cyno-jammer + eleventy titans'..... What stupid fools for FC's or alliance/corp leaders do you have? You don't attack a cyno-jammed system when your enemy is prepared for it. You wait until the system is not defended well, hit hard and fast, disable the cyno-jammer, then hold the system while killing the POS. So you may have to wait a week, maybe a month for that to occur, but so what? Nobody will sit in a defensive position 23/7 for weeks on end, so you'll get your chance eventually..... To refer back to this weekends demonstration of exactly this. BoB waited until Goons/Allies were tired of guarding QY6. Struck fast and hard, disabled the cyno-jammer and then proceeded to kill the POS in system. At any time could Goons/Allies have counterattacked and cyno'd in enough caps/titans/conventional ships to defend the system (cyno-jammer was down, remember). Also, at any time could they have proceeded to NOL and done exactly the same to BoB as BoB were doing to them. Perfect example that a cyno-jammer + titan defence can be easily broken and is only viable if an attack is expected within a short timeframe. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
James Duar	Posted - 2008.04.01 21:44:00 - [240] Originally by: Kerfira Your arguments are illogical and contradictory. You say that people will show up because their stations might be lost. Then you go on to say that the enemy (with titans) has a cyno jammer... Ehem, if someone is in danger of loosing a station, that means they have sovereignty. If THEY have sov, then the enemy can't have a cyno jammer. You're an idiot. The best defense is good offense. If you can't attack your enemy (at all, because this is what happens with a cynojammer and Titans) then he can sit around pushing his button and attack at his leisure (because he has the option of offlining the cyno jammer to get Titans in/out of the system and/or using jump bridges to accomplish the same). But you know what's best of all here? Even when not in his own systems, the enemy has still accomplish the rather neat effect of ensuring that the game is STILL capitals online because those 8 Titans are going to wipe out anything that's not a capital. They are also then going to let a support fleet wipe out the capitals because those carriers are certainly not going to be deploying any fighters whatsoever, and none of those Titans is going to be able to be tackled. So it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference where the enemy is, 8 Titans is pretty much unstoppable regardless of who's doorstep they show up on. Kerfira, STOP POSTING you're either an epic BoB alt troll or really have absolutely no idea how this game plays in 0.0. It's entirely possible there would be other options were there no lag. LAG is a fact of the game however. LAG is - get this - the number 1 reason to blob, because any strategy more complicated is quickly destroyed by lag. Lag is a result of blobs, POSs, dreads in seige for some reason. Jesus, I've desynced in a carrier with only 30 on grid and been in trouble thanks to a deathstar opening up on me all guns. Fact of the game: LAG. EVERY single strategy faces the litmus test of does it work better then an assload of lagged ships? The answer is, no. But you know, I'm sure all your empire experience with the UoC makes you well versed in this subject.

Cha Jeng Zenith of Things THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.01 22:26:00 - [241] I didn't read all the new posts, so if someone else said it I am sorry. Why not make a capital ship that is capable of putting up a huge bubble, or making a new module for dreads that can be used in conjunction with a seige module? Make the ship not able to move with it on, but it puts out a 100km bubble, then you can keep the ddd titans around if you want. Of course make the drawbacks similiar to the hic penalties, and if it was on a dread, make it so the dread can't shoot either... then you can dedicate the whole ship to tanking and keeping a huge bubble up. I know it could be turned into a horribly nasty gate camp item if improperly implemented and I don't know what could be done to change that, but I just thought it might be a neat idea. Feel free to shoot me down for a dumb idea, as I have pretty much 0 large fleet experience, and have never seen a titan firsthand.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 22:53:00 - [242] I somehow thought this is about the Doomsday being horribly broken, not that the Titan itself should be nerfed to hell. I think people are confusing the two.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.01 23:16:00 - [243] Originally by: Dianabolic Malachon, I've engaged in discussions about titans in the past. I agree they're broken. I agree they should be stations / capital killing behemoths. I don't think the dd should do "damage", I DO think it should just be an oversized BOMB (ie, sucks cap in its aoe etc etc etc). Comments like these, and others where Diana admits bob command knows titans/cyno jammers should be looked at are SORELY needed. Bob trolls ** off - this is important to all of eve and you know it. This isn't CAOD. Constructive critques of titan/cyno jammer mechanics or get the ** out of this thread.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.01 23:17:00 - [244] Originally by: Kingwood I somehow thought this is about the Doomsday being horribly broken, not that the Titan itself should be nerfed to hell. I think people are confusing the two. Exactly, and the people who keep insisting goons want titans nerfed to hell are getting awfully annoying. We're talking about changing game mechanics for the better here folks, if you don't like it go **** on CAOD or post an alternative.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.01 23:41:00 - [245] Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 23:45:42 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: Kingwood I somehow thought this is about the Doomsday being horribly broken, not that the Titan itself should be nerfed to hell. I think people are confusing the two. Exactly, and the people who keep insisting goons want titans nerfed to hell are getting awfully annoying. We're talking about changing game mechanics for the better here folks, if you don't like it go **** on CAOD or post an alternative. I do not think ppl are confusing the DDD with the titan as most of the posts are all about multiple DDD and how to avoid or kill the multiple titans that can fire them as an extension of that ability they have. PPL are just using the word titans as a reference point for the issue of multi DDD cos its the only ship that can fire them. Although its an interesting fact that nobody was bothered much about multiple titans/DDD until the recent war that failed to totally beat BOB, simply because the guys fighting them will not risk there own high isk value ships to kill BOB's. So instead of risking their own titans and cap ships it seems that they are gonna go to ccp and nerf it to allow less expensive ships to kill multiple titans/DDD and that is just wrong.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.01 23:49:00 - [246] Edited by: Angelonico on 01/04/2008 23:52:48 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 01/04/2008 23:45:42 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: Kingwood I somehow thought this is about the Doomsday being horribly broken, not that the Titan itself should be nerfed to hell. I think people are confusing the two. Exactly, and the people who keep insisting goons want titans nerfed to hell are getting awfully annoying. We're talking about changing game mechanics for the better here folks, if you don't like it go ** on CAOD or post an alternative. I do not think ppl are confusing the DDD with the titan as most of the posts are all about multiple DDD and how to avoid or kill the multiple titans that can fire them as an extension of that ability they have. PPL are just using the word titans as a reference point for the issue of multi DDD cos its the only ship that can fire them. Although its an interesting fact that nobody was bothered much about multiple titans/DDD until the recent war that failed to totally beat BOB, simply because the guys fighting them will not risk there own high isk value ships to kill BOB's. So instead of risking their own titans and cap ships it seems that they are gonna go to ccp and nerf it to allow less expensive ships to kill multiple titans/DDD and that is just wrong. I understand what you're saying - but don't really care much about the whole bob/goon thing these days. I just can't stand trolling or bull politics ruining the game development section of this forum (one of it's few highlights.) Everyone knows multiple titans, cynojammers, and the 0.0 fundamental game mechanic needs looking at. That's what this thread is about. I'll flame anyone, bob or goon, who tries to derail it. As an eve VET, I want 0.0 fixed (lag, super caps, the whole deal) period. Anyone who gets in the way of that is going to annoy me greatly. I also greatly admire some of the bob leadership posts where they admit there is a problem - and are tired of goon whines. A) Whining is lame and I agree. (goes for both sides of course) B) Them (Diana and bob leadership) acknowledging the problem goes a LONG way in establishing their credibility on the subject. In conclusion, the devs are most certainly reading this, and I'd like them to hear some good suggestions instead of "HAHAH GOONS SUCK WHINING CRYBABIES" or "STUPID BOD DEV HACKS" etc. No I am not a bobbit (though I was in Fix wayyyy back in the day.) No I am not a goon (though I was with them during the wars darkest hours, and when the tide turned.) I just want the supercap situation, cynojammers, sovereignty, pos wars, etc: all the **ty parts of this game, looked at.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 02:59:00 - [247] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 02/04/2008 03:01:45 Tell me how to attack a manned faction deathstar pos in a cyno jammed system without a blob. POS mechanics force blobs. Titans kill blobs. It is hard to have enough dps in a sub capital group without an even bigger (server crushing) blob. Cyno jammers stop enemy caps from getting in, while a minimal force of 3-6 people, good intel, and a way to contact them relyably out of game can lock down the system. Bob discovered this formula and exploited it. Mad props to them. The way to discourage blobs would be to diversify strategic targets that small gangs can go after with more efficiency than large gangs. For instance, you could require certain 0.0 assets supercaps to require a fuel made from ice only found in 0.0. Make the DD itself require fuel from this 0.0 source. Sure you can import it, but it wont be cheap. This allows smaller gangs to hamper enemy mining activity in order to disable supercap class ships strategiclly. And requiring special fuels would require better logistical support for those ships, which can be attacked. making capitals in general unable to utilize jumpbridges would go a long way in fixing pos mechanics, and make it easier to attack a cynojammed system that isnt currently defended by caps. Having cyno-jammers require sov 1 in all adjacent systems would give alliances a frontline, which can actually move more than once every 3 months. Making cyno jammers require CPU, and take 12 hours to anchor will encourage people to repair them, instead of shooting through the structure hp. Make strategic modules in general vunerable to small fleets, instead of just blob fleets. (Make jumpbridges/cyno arrays/system scanners weak enough that a few passes with a bs fleet can shoot it out, and a few thousand hp repped would get it back online). Cyno jammers should stay tough though, but not as tough as they are now. Make station services a ton weaker. So that they are easier to repair and easier to disable, that small gangs can hamper an enemies production and activity in that station very quickly. CCP says it wants to reduce blob warefare but so far they have done nothing to limit it and everything to make it worse. Titans, being a multi billion ISK asset, encourages the owner of the titan to protect it with a superblob, that requires a superblob in order to kill. The DD and the titan will continue to make blobs worse. --
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.02 03:39:00 - [248] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 02/04/2008 03:01:45 Tell me how to attack a manned faction deathstar pos in a cyno jammed system without a blob. POS mechanics force blobs. Titans kill blobs. It is hard to have enough dps in a sub capital group without an even bigger (server crushing) blob. Cyno jammers stop enemy caps from getting in, while a minimal force of 3-6 people, good intel, and a way to contact them relyably out of game can lock down the system. Bob discovered this formula and exploited it. Mad props to them. The way to discourage blobs would be to diversify strategic targets that small gangs can go after with more efficiency than large gangs. For instance, you could require certain 0.0 assets supercaps to require a fuel made from ice only found in 0.0. Make the DD itself require fuel from this 0.0 source. Sure you can import it, but it wont be cheap. This allows smaller gangs to hamper enemy mining activity in order to disable supercap class ships strategiclly. And requiring special fuels would require better logistical support for those ships, which can be attacked. making capitals in general unable to utilize jumpbridges would go a long way in fixing pos mechanics, and make it easier to attack a cynojammed system that isnt currently defended by caps. Having cyno-jammers require sov 1 in all adjacent systems would give alliances a frontline, which can actually move more than once every 3 months. Making cyno jammers require CPU, and take 12 hours to anchor will encourage people to repair them, instead of shooting through the structure hp. Make strategic modules in general vunerable to small fleets, instead of just blob fleets. (Make jumpbridges/cyno arrays/system scanners weak enough that a few passes with a bs fleet can shoot it out, and a few thousand hp repped would get it back online). Cyno jammers should stay tough though, but not as tough as they are now. Make station services a ton weaker. So that they are easier to repair and easier to disable, that small gangs can hamper an enemies production and activity in that station very quickly. CCP says it wants to reduce blob warefare but so far they have done nothing to limit it and everything to make it worse. Titans, being a multi billion ISK asset, encourages the owner of the titan to protect it with a superblob, that requires a superblob in order to kill. The DD and the titan will continue to make blobs worse. I think everyone at this point can agree that cynojammers need to be looked into, sov 3/4, and super caps in general. The question is specifically - HOW - to balance all this while being as fair as possible to both sides.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.02 07:37:00 - [249] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Tell me how to attack a manned faction deathstar pos in a cyno jammed system without a blob. I've already revealed the shocking secret how to do this several times. You do it when they're not expecting it! Attacking a prepared defensive force is just about the worst tactic someone can think of, and yet it seem all most of Titan/DD critics can come up with. I dare you to show me this. Show me a system you've wanted to attack that has been covered by X titans 23/7 constantly over the last month! It only takes about 5 minutes to incap a cyno jammer with a proper BS fleet. Simply wait until the right moment and then strike! Is that SO difficult? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.02 07:51:00 - [250] Originally by: Angelonico Everyone knows multiple titans, cynojammers, and the 0.0 fundamental game mechanic needs looking at. That's what this thread is about. I'll flame anyone, bob or goon, who tries to derail it. So basically you're going to flame anyone who just happen not to be part of 'everyone', like me and others? Titans and DD's aren't really broken, it's just that most people have a limited imagination, limited patience, can't stand hard challenges, and tactic abilities that doesn't go further than "blob - charge!" Sovereignty warfare is what is REALLY broken (as it's boring as hell and induces blobbing), everything else (including titans) are just small parts of that! Originally by: Angelonico I just want the supercap situation, cynojammers, sovereignty, pos wars, etc: all the **ty parts of this game, looked at. You forgot lag-blobbing, for which titans are the only counter at the moment, and which would be far more game-destroying if left to run un-checked..... Titans are mostly defensive, whereas lag-blobbing are offensive and defensive at the same time. However I agree with you on one thing. You can't touch one thing of the 0.0 equation without touching the others. I'm as sick of stupid boring POS warfare as I think everyone else is, but changing all that's wrong will be a HUGE undertaking that I don't think CCP are up for. The sov equation should be changed so everything people do in a constellation contribute to sov over that constellation (fighting, mining, ratting, exploration, trading, building, erecting/destroying infrastructure etc.). That way shooting POS wouldn't longer be the only way to change the equation, and since we're now covering a whole constellation over a large timeframe, simply blobbing one system will do little. Campaigns to take a constellation from others would be drawn out to maybe a month or more, and would most likely involve smaller gangs over a long period than large blobs in small periods. If something like this was done, there'd be no NEED for things like the DD and it could be removed/reduced/whatever. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.02 07:58:00 - [251] Edited by: Kerfira on 02/04/2008 07:59:01 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Make strategic modules in general vunerable to small fleets, instead of just blob fleets. (Make jumpbridges/cyno arrays/system scanners weak enough that a few passes with a bs fleet can shoot it out, and a few thousand hp repped would get it back online). Cyno jammers should stay tough though, but not as tough as they are now. Make station services a ton weaker. So that they are easier to repair and easier to disable, that small gangs can hamper an enemies production and activity in that station very quickly. Do you really want 0.0 EVE to be all about running around shooting and repairing structures? If it was that easy, non-NPC stations all over EVE would be incap'd most of the time until people were so sick of them not working that they moved to NPC stations.... Timezones taken into consideration, the first thing everyone would need to do when they came into their prime-time would be to run around and repair everything.... Shootable station services, and shootable POS structures was just about the worst idea CCP has come up with over the last year. Why? Because it's BORING to shoot/repair them.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.02 08:18:00 - [252] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 02/04/2008 08:17:58 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 02/04/2008 07:59:01 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Make strategic modules in general vunerable to small fleets, instead of just blob fleets. (Make jumpbridges/cyno arrays/system scanners weak enough that a few passes with a bs fleet can shoot it out, and a few thousand hp repped would get it back online). Cyno jammers should stay tough though, but not as tough as they are now. Make station services a ton weaker. So that they are easier to repair and easier to disable, that small gangs can hamper an enemies production and activity in that station very quickly. Do you really want 0.0 EVE to be all about running around shooting and repairing structures? If it was that easy, non-NPC stations all over EVE would be incap'd most of the time until people were so sick of them not working that they moved to NPC stations.... Timezones taken into consideration, the first thing everyone would need to do when they came into their prime-time would be to run around and repair everything.... Shootable station services, and shootable POS structures was just about the worst idea CCP has come up with over the last year. Why? Because it's BORING to shoot/repair them.... If people defended them against attack, then you could have cool small gangfights around stations. But if you chicken out and don't defend, or if you send your entire fleet halfway across the galaxy, then yes, you deserve the boredom of repairing them. Personally I think they should reduce the HP on stationservices by a factor of 10, but also make it cost isk or materials to repair. That way, you make it much easier for even a roaming gang to incap them, but also shorter (albeit more costly) to repair. Might at least give some incentive to actually fight instead of sitting in a station while enemies swarm over you.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.02 08:32:00 - [253] Originally by: Kerfira The sov equation should be changed so everything people do in a constellation contribute to sov over that constellation (fighting, mining, ratting, exploration, trading, building, erecting/destroying infrastructure etc.). That way shooting POS wouldn't longer be the only way to change the equation, and since we're now covering a whole constellation over a large timeframe, simply blobbing one system will do little. Campaigns to take a constellation from others would be drawn out to maybe a month or more, and would most likely involve smaller gangs over a long period than large blobs in small periods. If something like this was done, there'd be no NEED for things like the DD and it could be removed/reduced/whatever. I could not agree with you more on this point. And if done properly I do believe it could address almost all the issues we currently have with lag, blobs and titans. If only we could get CCP to respond to it. Hey Diana, I wouldn't mind if you poke someone on MSN over this
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2008.04.02 09:54:00 - [254] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Draygo Korvan Tell me how to attack a manned faction deathstar pos in a cyno jammed system without a blob. I've already revealed the shocking secret how to do this several times. You do it when they're not expecting it! Attacking a prepared defensive force is just about the worst tactic someone can think of, and yet it seem all most of Titan/DD critics can come up with. I dare you to show me this. Show me a system you've wanted to attack that has been covered by X titans 23/7 constantly over the last month! It only takes about 5 minutes to incap a cyno jammer with a proper BS fleet. Simply wait until the right moment and then strike! Is that SO difficult? Feel free to give us details of all the cyno jammer takedown ops you've led or participated in before. Oh right, you won't, because you're an alt and a troll. Your argument is stupid, and here's why: it is not possible to achieve tactical or strategic suprise over an even marginally competent opponent. You do know that fleets don't appear out of thin air, right? They have to form up and move to the target. This takes time, which means they are likely to be seen by scouts, spies, and whatnot. Even if they arn't, there are a limited number of possible targets for ANY fleet to hit in a region, so it's a simple matter to have a few people online to watch them (rat in system, chat while keeping an eye on local, whatever). BoB, not being incompetent, does all these things. They expect an attack at ANY time, because the alliances against them have total timezone coverage. It's also not possible to take down a cyno jammer by just swarming it with a DPS blob. Tri tried that against Youwhat and lost multiple fleets of T2 battleships. In short: You're just a troll and you don't know what you're talking about. Quote: [ 2006.08.25 22:30:46 ] fire 59 > mate, im 230 and 6 ft 3, half caste and train every day
PriceCHeckerr	Posted - 2008.04.02 10:12:00 - [255] sips some goon sweet tears go back to empire where you belong. Cant you use ur brain instead of trying to make ccp change the games so YOU can win?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.02 10:31:00 - [256] Originally by: PriceCHeckerr Cant you use ur brain instead of trying to make ccp change the games so YOU can win? Its all about the risk bud as ppl do not want to risk there own caps and super caps to kill the titans/DDD ships and wish them to be killable by basic tactics like blob spamming and smaller cheaper ships like frigs, cruisers, BC or BS.
James Duar	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:51:00 - [257] Originally by: PriceCHeckerr sips some goon sweet tears go back to empire where you belong. Cant you use ur brain instead of trying to make ccp change the games so YOU can win? OH SNAP! Oh wait, it's an alt post. Now tell us about risk v. reward. While posting with the alt. It'll be awesome I swear.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:13:00 - [258] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: PriceCHeckerr sips some goon sweet tears go back to empire where you belong. Cant you use ur brain instead of trying to make ccp change the games so YOU can win? OH SNAP! Oh wait, it's an alt post. Now tell us about risk v. reward. While posting with the alt. It'll be awesome I swear. Your comments and his for that matter belong on caod if anywhere and not on this forum or thread. Yes im an alt as well but i at least post with content pertinent to the topic.
Margarete GertrudeZelle	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:55:00 - [259] Its nice to see al the goons cry sweet tears here!! They say its all about titans and not coad. But if someone points them at there agenda they point at coad and start trolling. You blob goons and this weapons is great against blobs. It was made to be good against what you do. You forced a large aliance into a small region and it should be hard to take that especially if it is being held with weapons designed so you guys dont distroy the game. Get used to it!
Kodiacicles2	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:17:00 - [260] Alright, so having spent the last two hours reading through the entirety of this thread, let me say a few things first. 1- I am a n00b. Started just two weeks ago. 2- I don't fully understand many things about this game. 3- I am not an 'alt' account, before any of you try and flame me for that one. Here goes. It seems to me that since a titan's Doomsday Device is not a discretionary weapon (does not discriminate between other Friend and Foe), a titan letting off a dd in a blob of titans hits all of them. Good so far, right? What is the response to an opposing titan arriving? Remember, it's a hypothetical situation, so put your reservations on hold about how the titan got there, just that it did. What's the response going to be to that titan arriving next to the other 8? My response would be to mash that dd button as fast as I could. Again, I'm a n00b, so it may not be your response, but if it was, then assume all 9 titans in the area (yours included, since your trying to damage the other titans) set off their devices. None of the nine titans can warp, according to my understanding. Now you bring in the support fleet for the lone titan. Have it wait out-system, or whatever, but bring it after the dd's have gone off. Aye, it's still a swarm, but it removes the main disadvantage of using a fleet against titans- all the dd's in the area have already been set off. So, what don't I understand that makes this totally irrelevant and impossible? Other than that nobody would be willing to suicide run a titan.

maralt	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:31:00 - [261] Originally by: Kodiacicles2 Alright, so having spent the last two hours reading through the entirety of this thread, let me say a few things first. 1- I am a n00b. Started just two weeks ago. 2- I don't fully understand many things about this game. 3- I am not an 'alt' account, before any of you try and flame me for that one. Here goes. It seems to me that since a titan's Doomsday Device is not a discretionary weapon (does not discriminate between other Friend and Foe), a titan letting off a dd in a blob of titans hits all of them. Good so far, right? What is the response to an opposing titan arriving? Remember, it's a hypothetical situation, so put your reservations on hold about how the titan got there, just that it did. What's the response going to be to that titan arriving next to the other 8? My response would be to mash that dd button as fast as I could. Again, I'm a n00b, so it may not be your response, but if it was, then assume all 9 titans in the area (yours included, since your trying to damage the other titans) set off their devices. None of the nine titans can warp, according to my understanding. Now you bring in the support fleet for the lone titan. Have it wait out-system, or whatever, but bring it after the dd's have gone off. Aye, it's still a swarm, but it removes the main disadvantage of using a fleet against titans- all the dd's in the area have already been set off. So, what don't I understand that makes this totally irrelevant and impossible? Other than that nobody would be willing to suicide run a titan. The problem is not that the multiDDD/titan is unkillable its just that its unkillable without risking your own caps and super caps and thats why ppl are screaming for a nerf so they can kill them with frig/cruiser blobs and other cheap crap.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:46:00 - [262] Edited by: Pilgrippa on 02/04/2008 16:48:31 As bad as titans are, massive blobbing is much worse. - the reason blobbing is so effective is because of focused firing - introducing DDD did not fix the blob problem because it didn't address the effectiveness of focused firing - Titans will nerf themselves when 0.0 is empty and there is nothing to doomsday.
Maliber TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:06:00 - [263] Edited by: Maliber on 02/04/2008 17:07:42 Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kodiacicles2 stuff The problem is not that the multiDDD/titan is unkillable its just that its unkillable without risking your own caps and super caps and thats why ppl are screaming for a nerf so they can kill them with frig/cruiser blobs and other cheap crap. Wich is exactly why they "the goons" are crying nerf nerf nerf now. Titans are expencive and should be powerfull just because you cannot outsmart them or are unwilling to risk your own capitals doesnt mean it needs a nerf. They have put in a enormous amount of isk just to hold a few systems (more than a few hunderds of billions just on ship build cost.) I personally think this isn't a game balance issue but a purely politicaly motivated attack on a obstacle they cannot resolve in game. Its rather worring that people consider listening to them after all there history and shady practices. (wich have included ddosing forums and hacking computers of other gamers in the past.) All they really want to do is set the game to there hand by sheer forum presence(again). I hope this will not work.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:07:00 - [264] Originally by: Berrik Radhok Your argument is stupid, and here's why: it is not possible to achieve tactical or strategic suprise over an even marginally competent opponent. BoB achieved tactical AND strategic surprise when we took down the GS jammer in QY6 last friday. Argument is void, unless of.c. you admit you're....... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:13:00 - [265] Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 17:14:25 Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 17:13:31 There is nothing wrong with the outnumbered force losing, but it would be cool if there were better means to deal with large crowds. Dd's however aren't the answer because everyone, from a 10 man corp to the biggest alliances will find themselves outnumbered depending on the situation. So the means to deal with this need to be reasonable accessible. Bombers were an attempt to provide those means I think but they still need some work, and there's only so much that one can expect from a frigate to do, so I guess that eventually we'll see heavy bombers. As far as lag abused to gain an advantage, the only correct answer lies in changing POS and sovereignty mechanics and upgrading the servers, not adding overpowered dd's. All this said I don't think there's any reason to have dd's in the game at all, as they degrade the game into capitals online and shut subcapital pilots out of a part of combat. At this point it's too late to have dd's removed but it's never too late to tackle the real problems which have nothing to do with shiptype flown in a fleet battle. Flying subcapitals wasn't overpowered and didn't such a heavy counter. Personally I'll consider dd's fine when any shiptype can survive them and when some sort of diminishign returns mechanic is added.
Buyerr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:27:00 - [266] Edited by: Buyerr on 02/04/2008 17:29:14 Originally by: Ort Lofthus Indeed, titan jump bridge is very very powerful. On to the topic of hitting other systems, etc., mobility in 0.0 is now very good becuase of jump bridges and jump drives on capitals. Even if you manage to hit another system, the hostiles can respond pretty quickly. Removing DD from the game is a bad idea, but by its nature it had potential to be overpowered, like here. One titan isn't really overpowered. Multiple titans, like here, are not really counterable due to overlaping doomsdays. Fixes should address that the DD effect is more or less ok but the ability to do it rapidly is a problem. Things like 1 week cooldowns OR longer spin-ups (makes effective cycle-DDing harder), direct counters (shield ship), and increased disadvantages might be in order. Other factors that need looking at are the lag (makes DD much much more dangerous because the 15sec spin-up is a joke if there is heavy lag) and cyno-jammers (force the use of conventional fleets vs titans and other caps/supercaps, NOT AS INTENDED) agreed.. well letting it eat 50% of their shield, armor, cap and structure, should do the work.. (and at the same time increase their health a little bit, to still let it be balanced..) or something like that, so you would actually be very carefully with firring a dd and more with severals of these ps: the problem was already up in peoples thoughts back before they where put into the game. remember "the killers" flash movie? well he was right "if destroying a entire fleet with one click is wrong, we don't wanna be right"... sometimes i am amazed of how you DON'T see the problem in creating such a ship :S I declare war on stupidity
Maliber TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:54:00 - [267] What use is there for a degraded weapon that uses a percentage. It supposed to work against small ships. they have plenty of time to get away. 15 seconds is long enough and if you blob up a system so it lags longer than that then your being stupid. You are trying to use lag to your advantage and deserve the drawback. I've been in those blobs and i know everyone in them knows its a bad idea to fight under those environments. Its a lottery you all sign up for. Some allies even consider it a valid tactic to enduce node deaths. The weapon is there so it can distroy those huge amount of numbers. CCP is looking into the whole conquering systems thing so just calling for a dd nerf is bad. I mean the remote doomsday was a bit overpowerd but this is just smells like politics.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:58:00 - [268] Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 18:00:13 DD's can used against any subcapital fleet, outnumbered or not, whether or not it's trying to crash the node or not. Just keep that in mind - everyone here seems to think it's always a t1 blob vs titan scenario.
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:26:00 - [269] Originally by: Maliber What use is there for a degraded weapon that uses a percentage. It supposed to work against small ships. they have plenty of time to get away. 15 seconds is long enough and if you blob up a system so it lags longer than that then your being stupid. You are trying to use lag to your advantage and deserve the drawback. I've been in those blobs and i know everyone in them knows its a bad idea to fight under those environments. Its a lottery you all sign up for. Some allies even consider it a valid tactic to enduce node deaths. The weapon is there so it can distroy those huge amount of numbers. CCP is looking into the whole conquering systems thing so just calling for a dd nerf is bad. I mean the remote doomsday was a bit overpowerd but this is just smells like politics. People wanting to play the game is "being stupid"?
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 21:03:00 - [270] People saying "there is plenty of time to get away" have clearly never fought any number of modern fleet battles. While it is sometimes possible to warp out, the normal case is that you have 1-2min long module lag and are long dead by the time you hit warp. Ironically, the biggest contributers to lag appear to be capitals. When carriers and motherships deploy their fighters (anywhere in system), node performance just goes all to hell. Even without fighters, it's pretty much a crap shoot as to whether you'll load grid/be able to move. The reality of modern fleet warfare is that you're for the most part immobile. I imagine this is a major factor in BoB not really fielding interceptors and interdictors anymore (they are using HICs pretty much exclusively now). ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."

Maliber TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:49:00 - [271] Originally by: Alexander Knott People saying "there is plenty of time to get away" have clearly never fought any number of modern fleet battles. While it is sometimes possible to warp out, the normal case is that you have 1-2min long module lag and are long dead by the time you hit warp. Ironically, the biggest contributers to lag appear to be capitals. When carriers and motherships deploy their fighters (anywhere in system), node performance just goes all to hell. Even without fighters, it's pretty much a crap shoot as to whether you'll load grid/be able to move. Nobody is forcing you to fight with this many players at once? I've been in modern and old fleet battles and its pretty ok to fight with a decent number of ppl. But as soon as the napping starts and everyone and grandmother shows up to bring huge blobs and you kinda know hmmm this is bad right? Its time to find another solution to the conflict? or well maybe do something else? I mean who goes shopping to jita on a fridaynight? You know beforehand well and sure that anything that is gonna happen is a crap shoot? My point was that in a normal gaming environments it works ok against everything. It works better if you guys(both sides) lag up the system. But i mean the whole point of the weapon is to be fatal against groups right? It's like the tool that says on the side: mega blobs are bad mkay... What goons are doing atm is like going to a large riot and then crying its unfair of the police to use teargass as its to full at the riot and you couldnt run away....
Alyx Alyn	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:36:00 - [272] Originally by: Maliber Nobody is forcing you to fight with this many players at once? I've taken the liberty of snipping the rest of your post, since you clearly have no idea about 0.0 warfare, otherwise you wouldn't have written this.
Draygo Korvan	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:12:00 - [273] Originally by: Kerfira It only takes about 5 minutes to incap a cyno jammer with a proper BS fleet. Simply wait until the right moment and then strike! Is that SO difficult? That fleet is a blob. So how am I to do it without a blob? I'm still waiting for you to give me a setup using a fleet of under 10 battleships that can incap a cyno jammer under a faction pos with just 1 gunner, in a reasonable amount of time. Anyway, you completely missed my point. You cant attack a well fit faction pos with a cynojammer without a sizeable fleet to begin with, titan or no titan. The goon faction pos in qy6 could not be assaulted by no less than 50 battleships or they would have been unable to shoot. Bob brought 200 when they suprise attacked it. (A blob). Its a flawed game mechanic, CCP is forcing the blob in 0.0 warfare by only allowing subcaps and capitols already in system to assault a cynojammer. Your shocking secret to attacking a cynojammer is to bring a 'blob' at a suprise time. When the question specifically stated you cannot use a blob to do it. -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:36:00 - [274] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Angelonico Everyone knows multiple titans, cynojammers, and the 0.0 fundamental game mechanic needs looking at. That's what this thread is about. I'll flame anyone, bob or goon, who tries to derail it. So basically you're going to flame anyone who just happen not to be part of 'everyone', like me and others? Do you have serious reading comprehension problems? Anyone who derails the thread deserves to be flamed. This is the game development section brosef, if you want titans to be changed - suggest something. If you don't, state your case. If you DON'T like suggestions, refute them. Keep acting like a jackass? I'll be happy to point out just how you're being one. BOB LEADERSHIP HAS ADMITTED THEY NEED TO BE LOOKED AT. (which is a class move) I don't want them overnerfed, I don't want anything too drastic. I'd really like to see some honest discussion of the mechanics of titans (as people have been) and their future role in eve. Not your pathetic attempts at trolls. This is my main. I'm not a goon. I'm not a part of the GBC. I just like the game. Now please have a nice big glass of STFU and either contribute to the thread or get out.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:02:00 - [275] I'd still like to see titans have thier own weapons systems, lots of small guns, in which each gun module is actully a cluster, sure the gsme treats it the same, but with better tracking, think large gun tracking capital gun damage, medium gun RoF So in other words it's just a graphical cluster of weapons, like 20 per modules but the game treats each cluster as a single gun. so you fire and 20 lasers go flying out and hit a target, they hit for overall capital gun dps, but with better tracking. and MUCH better medium gun sig radius, so with help you can web down small ships and BAM it's all over. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
memphistopheles	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:54:00 - [276] I don't see why some people act surprised. When the game was released, you could fit torpedoe launchers on a kestrel. This game will never get fixed, get over it. Its been 5 years and theres still a ****load of things wrong with the way the game compiles itself and is run. Most of you sound like you think this game is ran by competent developers, you should know better by now. Rather than actually fix major things like severe lag (What good is a mass multiplayer spaceship game without massive fleet battles?), people dissapearing after they log off despite being under fire, address book bugs that have been around since beta, hardware incompatibilities with 70% of the average users windows machine, a completely unstable "native" linux client, a mac client that runs at about 50% the performance, and basic gameplay issues, it seems like you are all directed to whine and stupid garbage such as the oldest group of players getting the best ships and actually using them. Its endgame for a reason, it might be broken, but thats what your paying for. A game thats been broken for FIVE YEARS. The only thing this game is good for, is killing someone and watching them cry over it. Like that guy in myrmidon that got DDed while cloaked.
memphistopheles	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:57:00 - [277] Originally by: memphistopheles I don't see why some people act surprised. When the game was released, you could fit torpedoe launchers on a kestrel. This game will never get fixed, get over it. Its been 5 years and theres still a ****load of things wrong with the way the game compiles itself and is run. Most of you sound like you think this game is ran by competent developers, you should know better by now. Rather than actually fix major things like severe lag (What good is a mass multiplayer spaceship game without massive fleet battles?), people dissapearing after they log off despite being under fire, address book bugs that have been around since beta, hardware incompatibilities with 70% of the average users windows machine, a completely unstable "native" linux client, a mac client that runs at about 50% the performance, and basic gameplay issues, it seems like you are all directed to whine and stupid garbage such as the oldest group of players getting the best ships and actually using them. Its endgame for a reason, it might be broken, but thats what your paying for. A game thats been broken for FIVE YEARS. The only thing this game is good for, is killing someone and watching them cry over it. Like that guy in myrmidon that got DDed while cloaked. Fa Show.
Cornwaffles	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:03:00 - [278] Originally by: memphistopheles Originally by: memphistopheles I don't see why some people act surprised. When the game was released, you could fit torpedoe launchers on a kestrel. This game will never get fixed, get over it. Its been 5 years and theres still a ****load of things wrong with the way the game compiles itself and is run. Most of you sound like you think this game is ran by competent developers, you should know better by now. Rather than actually fix major things like severe lag (What good is a mass multiplayer spaceship game without massive fleet battles?), people dissapearing after they log off despite being under fire, address book bugs that have been around since beta, hardware incompatibilities with 70% of the average users windows machine, a completely unstable "native" linux client, a mac client that runs at about 50% the performance, and basic gameplay issues, it seems like you are all directed to whine and stupid garbage such as the oldest group of players getting the best ships and actually using them. Its endgame for a reason, it might be broken, but thats what your paying for. A game thats been broken for FIVE YEARS. The only thing this game is good for, is killing someone and watching them cry over it. Like that guy in myrmidon that got DDed while cloaked. Fa Show. After getting my caracal blown up by sentries after letting a global countdown expired, im going to have to agree with this. Also what the heck is the point of the petition rating system, when probably about 90% of all people that file petitions are unsatisfied. Its like it only exists to make the user feel like they matter, when in reality, it does not. However, in regards to the titan issue, items that can completely overpower an alliance need to be nerfed on a regular basis. They should probably be pulled out of the game alltogether.
Mikado99 In Utero Aristocracy	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:07:00 - [279] Originally by: Cornwaffles Originally by: memphistopheles Originally by: memphistopheles I don't see why some people act surprised. When the game was released, you could fit torpedoe launchers on a kestrel. This game will never get fixed, get over it. Its been 5 years and theres still a ****load of things wrong with the way the game compiles itself and is run. Most of you sound like you think this game is ran by competent developers, you should know better by now. Rather than actually fix major things like severe lag (What good is a mass multiplayer spaceship game without massive fleet battles?), people dissapearing after they log off despite being under fire, address book bugs that have been around since beta, hardware incompatibilities with 70% of the average users windows machine, a completely unstable "native" linux client, a mac client that runs at about 50% the performance, and basic gameplay issues, it seems like you are all directed to whine and stupid garbage such as the oldest group of players getting the best ships and actually using them. Its endgame for a reason, it might be broken, but thats what your paying for. A game thats been broken for FIVE YEARS. The only thing this game is good for, is killing someone and watching them cry over it. Like that guy in myrmidon that got DDed while cloaked. Fa Show. After getting my caracal blown up by sentries after letting a global countdown expired, im going to have to agree with this. Also what the heck is the point of the petition rating system, when probably about 90% of all people that file petitions are unsatisfied. Its like it only exists to make the user feel like they matter, when in reality, it does not. However, in regards to the titan issue, items that can completely overpower an alliance need to be nerfed on a regular basis. They should probably be pulled out of the game alltogether. You cant take DDs out of the game or Titans would be useless.. they just need to be adjusted, maybe a stacking penalty. Eve is broken so dont expect anything to change soon though
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:09:00 - [280] Originally by: Cornwaffles Originally by: memphistopheles Originally by: memphistopheles I don't see why some people act surprised. When the game was released, you could fit torpedoe launchers on a kestrel. This game will never get fixed, get over it. Its been 5 years and theres still a ****load of things wrong with the way the game compiles itself and is run. Most of you sound like you think this game is ran by competent developers, you should know better by now. Rather than actually fix major things like severe lag (What good is a mass multiplayer spaceship game without massive fleet battles?), people dissapearing after they log off despite being under fire, address book bugs that have been around since beta, hardware incompatibilities with 70% of the average users windows machine, a completely unstable "native" linux client, a mac client that runs at about 50% the performance, and basic gameplay issues, it seems like you are all directed to whine and stupid garbage such as the oldest group of players getting the best ships and actually using them. Its endgame for a reason, it might be broken, but thats what your paying for. A game thats been broken for FIVE YEARS. The only thing this game is good for, is killing someone and watching them cry over it. Like that guy in myrmidon that got DDed while cloaked. Fa Show. After getting my caracal blown up by sentries after letting a global countdown expired, im going to have to agree with this. Also what the heck is the point of the petition rating system, when probably about 90% of all people that file petitions are unsatisfied. Its like it only exists to make the user feel like they matter, when in reality, it does not. However, in regards to the titan issue, items that can completely overpower an alliance need to be nerfed on a regular basis. They should probably be pulled out of the game alltogether. I appreciate your contribution to my statements about the game, yet you fail to have any empathy towards the players that have spent the time and money on their characters to train for the titan and doomsday devices. Things that take extensive time to train for should not be completely removed alltogether, it wastes those users time and money. It may be counterproductive to the greater enjoyment of the community for people that consistently get slaughtered and whine about it, however part of the gameplay is dominating other players and holding space. If someone has spent the time and effort getting themselves into a position to do so, the same opportunity is also available to other players that want to contribute that effort themselves.

rValdez5987 Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:24:00 - [281] another useless whine thread about how bob has too many titans and they need to be nerfed yet again. Did you maybe forget that just maybe things aren't always supposed to be "fair" and that just maybe BoB isn't supposed to be forced to remain on your level? Everyone has the same opportunities. If you want BoB's space so that you can get lots of isk, and build titans, remove them from it. Or just get isk from your own space and build your own titans... or better yet, split attacks on multiple systems so that all the titans arent grouped together, then try to lock one down and kill it. There are ways to kill titans, your just not using your options. You want eve to be easy, rather then as harsh as it is. The game is fine the way it is, please do not whine and cause it to get broken more. My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:27:00 - [282] Originally by: memphistopheles I appreciate your contribution to my statements about the game, yet you fail to have any empathy towards the players that have spent the time and money on their characters to train for the titan and doomsday devices. Things that take extensive time to train for should not be completely removed alltogether, it wastes those users time and money. It may be counterproductive to the greater enjoyment of the community for people that consistently get slaughtered and whine about it, however part of the gameplay is dominating other players and holding space. If someone has spent the time and effort getting themselves into a position to do so, the same opportunity is also available to other players that want to contribute that effort themselves. That can easily be solved. Turn the titan into a extremely valuable logistical support vessel (huge cargobay, huge ship hangar array) so their titan skill does not become useless. Turn the Doomsday weapon training into 'Supercapital weapon systems', which gives the titanpilot a 200% bonus to capital weapon damage when mounted on a titan. Which would a titans firepower on par with that of 5 sieging dreadnaughts, but without the penalties that sieging dreads have on tracking so they can hit battleships. Then add some repair bonuses so they can tank more damage and you have a titan that is still a valuable asset, but is not the click 1 button bang you're all dead we can go home now ship anymore.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:32:00 - [283] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 05:32:59 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=739979 I wonder when the first just-for-fun gate camping Titans will appear.
rValdez5987	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:33:00 - [284] ive still heard that if you tank a bs properly you can tank a doomsday. However, it is solely up to bob to use most of their titans in one system. Just because bob has so many titans and can use them doesnt mean they need a nerf. Titans are supposed to be the most feared ship in game, and they are thanks to the doomsday, however, there are ways to deal with them. BoB is doing everything correct by having a proper support fleet, with goods fc's and skilled pilots, and all im seeing are people that want to "nerf" that fact because they cant form a capable fleet up or find a way to split up bobs forces. listening to the noobs rather then the veterans will ruin eve. HOWEVER, If ccp decided to nerf the titan and there was no going against it, I would agree that you could make it basically like a moving station, and give it a huge bonus to its damage and tanking. I think thats a good idea... problem is, people would still whine because then when their carriers got primaried by six titans they would still die too fast, and well, thats not fair. Good thought though atleast. My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
rValdez5987	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:36:00 - [285] Quote: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=739979 Rolling Eyes I wonder when the first just-for-fun gate camping Titans will appear. OH MY GAWD. That is the coolest freaking thing ever. You see, that right there is why I play eve. Take that away, and the magic is lost. I think you goons just dont want to have to pay to play for the 2-3 years it takes for you to be able to fly a titan... lol My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:39:00 - [286] Titans are supposed to be major strategic fleet assets, not flying mobile 250km radius deathzones. Even BoB members agreed they need to be changed, that should tell you something. I can't be bothered to argue anymore, I'll see how it goes in Delve. Also taking bets when the first threads about GS abusing their multiple Titans appear.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:41:00 - [287] Originally by: rValdez5987 Quote: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=739979 Rolling Eyes I wonder when the first just-for-fun gate camping Titans will appear. OH MY GAWD. That is the coolest freaking thing ever. You see, that right there is why I play eve. Take that away, and the magic is lost. I think you goons just dont want to have to pay to play for the 2-3 years it takes for you to be able to fly a titan... lol Yeah, this is fun, because it is still a rare occurence. Maybe try thinking 6 months into the future. Last post here, I can't be bothered anymore. I just hope the devs are thinking something up which does not have to do with changing the recycle rate to 6 hours.
rValdez5987	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:53:00 - [288] like I said, I feel titans are fine. Sure having 6-7 of them together all with doomsdays is something ccp never really thought of.... here is an easy fix anyways for those that dont agree. make it so that titans cannot be within a certain range of eachother, so that they act more as a remote base, rather then being right in on the action. Enable their weapons to stretch extreme ranges using advanced skills which would need to be trained above what is available now, so that they can still participate from far away in an anti capital role. Basic goal is this. RA titan comes in near a station, but 250km away from it as the titan is not allowed to be near any celestial objects (gates, station, etc) BoB titan is atleast 300km from the other titan and cannot approach it any closer for fear that "the jump drive may meltdown due to interference" (lol) both titans have capital size long range weapons that stretch out nearly 400km (with new skills that allow this, and a proper fitting) they can still doomsday, but its not quite as effective as the titans have to be far apart from eachother. as the titans are simply slugging it out against capitals or each other the battleships and smaller are fighting near the center. The goal is for the titan to act as more of a remote and mobile base that allows for pilots to get back in ships and go back to the fight even after they are podded, while still being able to participate in the fight at range, and still maintaining a doomsday for if the whole other fleet jumps in on top of it. again, I think the titan is fine as is, and that there are ways around the situation that bob has presented you all with. I think your just not thinking hard enough... or perhaps its lack of experience. My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:55:00 - [289] Edited by: Angelonico on 03/04/2008 05:57:01 Originally by: rValdez5987 Typical rValdez jibba jabba Have you read any of the posts in this thread? The title is a little misleading, there has been some honest discussion of the mechanics and the people who are most concerned with an overaggressive nerf (bob) have admitted that their leadership agrees, cynojammers and the DDD need to be looked at. Not flat removed, LOOKED AT. Read. Think. Then post.
ArmyOfMe	Posted - 2008.04.03 06:11:00 - [290] after having read the first two pages ive realised that for some strange reason there is a ton of ppl in starter corps that seem to know how to fix DD Titans are fine, learn to adapt or go back to empire were you belong Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Maliber TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 08:29:00 - [291] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 05:32:59 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=739979 I wonder when the first just-for-fun gate camping Titans will appear. didnt evoke already do that a while back.......? I remembered getting camped by one at least a while back..... nobody was crying over it back then :P
IamAcontractALT	Posted - 2008.04.03 09:03:00 - [292] Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 09:04:19 Make HIC's doomsday resistant/immune? Then forces people to risk jumping in dreads to kill titans rather than whine on forums like a baby. 10 titans camping is great HIC can relax attacking while the titans gets rid of non-capital blobs on both sides and forces people to bring capitals only in to fight. And capitals are anti-titan ships.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.03 09:49:00 - [293] Edited by: Kerfira on 03/04/2008 09:52:44 Originally by: Angelonico BOB LEADERSHIP HAS ADMITTED THEY NEED TO BE LOOKED AT. (which is a class move) Everyone making this argument should read what Dianabolic said in its entire context: Originally by: Dianabolic 2 - All of us in BoB command agree the titan is broken. We just think it needs to be fixed differently. We also agree that jammers should be looked at. When CCP introduced constellational sov it compressed the space which pilots wanted to "keep". When they introduced jammers, it increased the amount they were ABLE to keep. For the good of the game, that needs to be reversed. But I'll tell you this - us having titans means we have a better chance of standing up to the uber-blob you were throwing at us for just over a year. You can sit there and say "it ain't fair" about the doomsday until you're blue in the face, but nor is it "fair" when, to guarantee victory, ANY side is able to pull a jv1v scenario and crash the node just to achieve a result. Titans allow us to prevent that, and rightfully so. I've bolded the important parts which all of those using the 'BoB leader has said...' argument most conveniently forgets. Especially you should look at the last line, the one with 'rightfully so' in it. Titan DD's are the only counter against lag-blobbing present in the game. Until mechanics to prevent lag-blobbing being an I-Win button is put in, DD's are a needed mechanic to prevent the game becoming just about gathering the biggest amount of players. As I said before, I think the whole sov mechanics system needs to be rewritten so there's no NEED for either blobs or DD's, but until that happens DD's are a needed measure against something that would make the 0.0 game much worse if left unchecked. I also notice that most opposition against DD's are coming from alliances most noted for using the lag-blobbing tactics. That in itself should be a fair indicator it is working as intended. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
James Duar	Posted - 2008.04.03 09:56:00 - [294] You know I could be wrong, but I could swear that getting 5000 people all to cooperate and do the same thing is actually pretty monumentally difficult. That despite that everyone gets checked at 160 billion ISK build-cost of ships doesn't quite seem right in that context (especially since Jihadswarm will pretty soon have ganked that much in Exhumers in Empire).
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:14:00 - [295] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 10:16:01 I didn't want to reply in this thread again, but those incredibly stupid responses are hard to resist. First off, the people posting in here are convinced that the current Doomsday mechanics are destroying the game, and rightfully so. This is not about wanting to win any wars currently going on. What's currently happening is that players are moving from BS's to Capitals. Nothing else is changing except subcapitals being useless. Blobs stay the same, lag is getting worse. You're replacing a BS blob with a Dread and Carrier/Mom blob. Titans benefit from lag when defending, not the attacker. While you're loading grid you're already doomsdayed. Game over. Even baiting multiple Titans into doomsdaying in a lagfree environment is not gonna work, because they CAN AFFORD TO MISS once they hit a certain number because of the recycle. You portray yourself as being strictly against blobbing. Please explain how the doomsday is preventing that, when, in reality, it is bringing blobbing to the next level. Someone else also asked you how to take out a Cynojammer without blobbing. You have yet to answer that. I'd be extremely interested in an answer. In my opinion Capitals are destroying the game, and I start to regret returning to Eve more and more.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:29:00 - [296] Originally by: Kerfira I've bolded the important parts which all of those using the 'BoB leader has said...' argument most conveniently forgets. Especially you should look at the last line, the one with 'rightfully so' in it. Titan DD's are the only counter against lag-blobbing present in the game. Until mechanics to prevent lag-blobbing being an I-Win button is put in, DD's are a needed mechanic to prevent the game becoming just about gathering the biggest amount of players. As I said before, I think the whole sov mechanics system needs to be rewritten so there's no NEED for either blobs or DD's, but until that happens DD's are a needed measure against something that would make the 0.0 game much worse if left unchecked. I also notice that most opposition against DD's are coming from alliances most noted for using the lag-blobbing tactics. That in itself should be a fair indicator it is working as intended. I disagree that you've bolded the most important part. Especially since the most dedicated 'lagblobber' will still be immune to titans. If a side manages to get 600-700 people into a system before the titans arrive, they can't even jump in because they would get lagkilled before ever loading anything. That is, if they dont get stuck in limbo. All the titan does is up the ante, forcing you to come with an even more huge overwhelming force than you would have otherwise needed. The POS mechanics force people to blob. If you want people to take down a cynojammer before the titans arrive like you suggest is the right way to tackle a cynojammer+titan defence, they need to blob to get enough battleships together. BoBs attack on QY6 that succeeded, did that happen with a blob or not? Yes it did. So on the one hand CCP forces people to blob (bring say 150 bs so they can kill a cynojammer before a defence can be mounted), then you claim that the titans need their DD to stop people from blobbing. Well, don't blame the enemy for that, BLAME CCP. The JV1J example is not a good one in my opinion. First of all, why did it happen? It happened because titans existed. If there had been no titan baby, Goons would not have been able to convince so many people to show up to kill it. Titans were considered such vital ships that people would form a 1500 man blob to kill it. Furthermore, a titan could not have stopped a 1500 man blob. The first wave jumped in, crashed the node and the rest of the story is history. Even in your scenarios where people attack 'intelligently', it is STILL the best idea to bring as many people as possible to make it impossible for any defender to show up because the system is full. The only thing that having 5 or 6 titans will do is INCREASE the required blobsize from 200 to 600. They do not solve blobs, they cause them. And if there are enough titans to kill a certain size blob, the blobs only resolution is to bring an even bigger blob that even titans cannot enter a system anymore to protect it from blobs.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:36:00 - [297] I'm gonna leave the posting to Malachon and Traeon now. They are able to express themselves so much better than I.
Zeveron	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:40:00 - [298] Edited by: Zeveron on 03/04/2008 10:42:26 You dont need 1.500 ppl to kill a titan. RA and BoB prooved that. Quality better than quantity. Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. You dont need 100erts of bss to siege a pos when 20-30 dreads can do it better and faster. Just support your capital fleet with 100 ppl and you got a server friendly 150-200 fleet. If you got more ppl arround send the to camp other systems to cut off reinforcements etc. Dont bring 500 ppl to do a job that can be done with 50 + 100 of support. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Maliber TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:49:00 - [299] Edited by: Maliber on 03/04/2008 10:51:39 Originally by: Zeveron Edited by: Zeveron on 03/04/2008 10:42:26 You dont need 1.500 ppl to kill a titan. RA and BoB prooved that. Quality better than quantity. Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. You dont need 100erts of bss to siege a pos when 20-30 dreads can do it better and faster. Just support your capital fleet with 100 ppl and you got a server friendly 150-200 fleet. If you got more ppl arround send the to camp other systems to cut off reinforcements etc. Dont bring 500 ppl to do a job that can be done with 50 + 100 of support. ^^ What he said.... Ppl thinking: Quote: form a 1500 man blob You didnt figure that there would be lag problems????
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:53:00 - [300] Originally by: Zeveron Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. That's part of what many are complaining about. The game turns into capitals online. Just bring 50-60 caps. The other side will bring 50-60 caps. Then both sides will try to bring more and more caps to get an advantage, and nothing has been changed at all. Granted, the number of caps is limited at the moment so we don't see the cap blobs often yet, but if they're the future of fleet combat and the only viable shiptype left with titans in system then that's what we're heading to. This is not the EVE i want to play to be honest. Dd's are the very reason for all this.

Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:04:00 - [301] Originally by: Kingwood First off, the people posting in here are convinced that the current Doomsday mechanics are destroying the game, and rightfully so. Wrong, quite a few of us also sees nothing really wrong with DD's in the context of current game mechanics. We see them as a needed counter-measure against a bigger problem, which would be a sure I-Win button. Titans are counterable if you're prepared to commit your capitals. Lag-blobbing is not counterable. Originally by: Kingwood Titans benefit from lag when defending, not the attacker. While you're loading grid you're already doomsdayed. Game over. Even baiting multiple Titans into doomsdaying in a lagfree environment is not gonna work, because they CAN AFFORD TO MISS once they hit a certain number because of the recycle. Get there first... Attack somewhere else... Hold down the system while taking it out... Break the enemys morale by being better than him so he doesn't defend... Lot's of different possible counters, but if you can't think of any other tactics that "Blob up! Charge", there's really no counterarguments available you'd be able to comprehend.... Your attitude is that of "I've got most numbers so I must win!". You're not prepared for the long grinding of morale that has been the 'rule' of EVE warfare since the game becan, but just want to be able to make a knock-out blow (which you feel entitled to because you have more numbers) and claim you've won.... Originally by: Kingwood You portray yourself as being strictly against blobbing. Please explain how the doomsday is preventing that, when, in reality, it is bringing blobbing to the next level. And why is it then that we don't see lag-blobbing used anymore as a tactic? Because people are afraid to get DD'd. Working as intended! Originally by: Kingwood Someone else also asked you how to take out a Cynojammer without blobbing. You have yet to answer that. I'd be extremely interested in an answer. Blobbing as such is an ok tactics AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T LAG OUT THE SERVERS! When it does that it become's lag-blobbing, which is what I'm primarily against. I may not have emphasised this enough.... 100 BS to take out a cyno-jammer is not a lag-blob as it is perfectly feasible to fight them. They're also perfectly able to avoid one or more DD's at the hostile POS if their pilots/FC's are capable and alert. If they're not (capable and alert) they deserve to get horribly blown up! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:14:00 - [302] Originally by: Maliber Edited by: Maliber on 03/04/2008 10:51:39 Originally by: Zeveron Edited by: Zeveron on 03/04/2008 10:42:26 You dont need 1.500 ppl to kill a titan. RA and BoB prooved that. Quality better than quantity. Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. You dont need 100erts of bss to siege a pos when 20-30 dreads can do it better and faster. Just support your capital fleet with 100 ppl and you got a server friendly 150-200 fleet. If you got more ppl arround send the to camp other systems to cut off reinforcements etc. Dont bring 500 ppl to do a job that can be done with 50 + 100 of support. ^^ What he said.... Ppl thinking: Quote: form a 1500 man blob You didnt figure that there would be lag problems???? sigh... problem isn't killing one titan it is killing a whole BLOB! of titans.. it is only a matter of time before big alliances have 10-20+ titans to their desposel. which means ANYTHING else then titans is almost useless. and then it is only a matter of time before they got 100+ titans, and NOW anything else then those titans are utterly useless... you gotta use your brain and think ahead. there is NO other ship then titans and mom's that can kill any other ship of smaller seize with ease and without even having to think about what it does. and there is no other ships then titans that can kill a whole bunch of any smaller ships with ease, and that is what makes eve balanced and good. super capital ships as they are now have destroyed the fine nature and balance of eve. while capital ships already was touching the edge of what this fine balance would handle (since dreads are so superior to even a whole bunch of smaller ships and carriers will rid a smaller gang too) but at least they could be taken down by a gang of 10 - people when organized in the right manner, ships and ew. but those super caps are totally destroying this balance. now it is "bring caps and super caps or flee"... ccp needs to fix this ****up I declare war on stupidity
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:21:00 - [303] Originally by: Malachon Draco Especially since the most dedicated 'lagblobber' will still be immune to titans. If a side manages to get 600-700 people into a system before the titans arrive, they can't even jump in because they would get lagkilled before ever loading anything. Why doesn't this happen anymore then? EVE is nap'ed up more than at any time before, with the potential for this greater than ever before. ....but it doesn't happen.... My opinion on that is that the fear of titans is what's keeping it at bay. You may possibly disagree, but there's really no way of telling who's right. The fact that it doesn't happen anymore when people are facing titans is imho a pretty decent argument in favor of my argument though. Originally by: Malachon Draco The POS mechanics force people to blob. If you want people to take down a cynojammer before the titans arrive like you suggest is the right way to tackle a cynojammer+titan defence, they need to blob to get enough battleships together. BoBs attack on QY6 that succeeded, did that happen with a blob or not? Yes it did. So on the one hand CCP forces people to blob (bring say 150 bs so they can kill a cynojammer before a defence can be mounted), then you claim that the titans need their DD to stop people from blobbing. Well, don't blame the enemy for that, BLAME CCP. I've only seen the youtube video of the BoB attack on the QY6 jammer which doesn't give much detail. From that it appeared that they had a lot of BS and got DD'd once. However, it appeared that their FC's and pilots were capable and alert enought to avoid the DD. That they were able to avoid the DD indicates they were not lagging out the system, thus it wasn't a lag-blob. I may not have been clear enough in differentiation between large amounts of ships and lag-blobs. When I've said blobbing, I've meant blobs of sufficient size to lag out the system. Originally by: Malachon Draco Even in your scenarios where people attack 'intelligently', it is STILL the best idea to bring as many people as possible to make it impossible for any defender to show up because the system is full. Agree that this is the major flaw in current sov game mechanics. Already suggested how it should be changed as you know. I'm perfectly happy with the DD being taken out of the game if the benefits of lag-blobbing is taken out too. I don't see DD's as a GOOD feature, but see them as a necessity in the context of how everything else works in sov mechanics. Originally by: Malachon Draco The only thing that having 5 or 6 titans will do is INCREASE the required blobsize from 200 to 600. They do not solve blobs, they cause them. And if there are enough titans to kill a certain size blob, the blobs only resolution is to bring an even bigger blob that even titans cannot enter a system anymore to protect it from blobs. And I don't agree to this. My claim is that if there weren't any titans, people would rutinely bring those 600 on assaults to avoid having to actually fight to take a system from an enemy. What titans does is making people fear loosing their ships so they don't show up for blobby, laggy fights. You have your opinion, I have mine. I think my opinion that titans discourage people from lag-blobbing is pretty well supported by the fact that lag-blobbing by and large doesn't occur anymore. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Frances Ducoir	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:27:00 - [304] dunno if it hasnt been said already: global DDD-timer per system... allow only 1 DDD per hour, no matter from which titan... problem solved /end thread? snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:31:00 - [305] Kerfira you're naive to think that people will settle for smaller sized capital fights, as the reason why mass fleet fights exist are unchanged. The skill/isk investment is high though so joe average who can't fly a capship or afford one is simply shut out of the fight. do you seriously think that discouraging the average PvP'er from combat is a good idea?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:34:00 - [306] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 11:45:36 Originally by: Traeon Originally by: Zeveron Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. That's part of what many are complaining about. The game turns into capitals online. Just bring 50-60 caps. The other side will bring 50-60 caps. Then both sides will try to bring more and more caps to get an advantage, and nothing has been changed at all. Granted, the number of caps is limited at the moment so we don't see the cap blobs often yet, but if they're the future of fleet combat and the only viable shiptype left with titans in system then that's what we're heading to. This is not the EVE i want to play to be honest. Dd's are the very reason for all this. 1. DDD are not the reason ppl always try to have more ships than the guys they are fighting. 2. PPL are the reason and always have been, (and always will be) why they always try to bring as many as possible. 3. Titans just force PPL to bring better/higher value ships to kill better/higher value ships. 4. Most of the PPL complaining are those who do not have and are unwilling to build there own titans as a counter, or unwilling to risk there capitals and titans to kill capitals and titans. 5. We see conventional ship blobs now so maybe we will see cap ship blobs of similar size in the future but the fact is that its all blobbing and at least the price of cap ships will be a factor in how ppl use them instead of seeing 900 frig cruiser blobs. 6. the idea of changing the titans into a dread with 200% more damage and a command ship is a joke cos who would want a 50bil+ fittings ships that 2 deads and a command ship could beat. 7. If you dont want you conventional fleet popped by a titan dont be stupid enough to warp them into range of its DDD use your dreads to kill them and your support fleet for support, deads can hit at 230+ easily while most BS cannot so the conventional fleet defending the titans would have to move away from the titans to engage giving your own sniper fleet the ability to engage them out of range of the DDD. 8.BUBBLE the defending conventional fleet in range of the DDD forcing them to either POP their own fleet if they pop yours. 9. Increase the lock/combat range of dreads and to 300 or more to help with point 7.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:01:00 - [307] Kerfira, like I said before I agree with you on CCP needing to change the current POS/sovereignty mechanics. Why people don't blob so much? I think you focus too much on 2 instances on where it happened. People never blobbed hugely except in the very exceptional circumstances of F-T and JV1V. Both would not have happened if there had been no titans in my opinion, since we never saw such blobs at other occasions. Or maybe you are looking at the numbers in the socalled RSF vs the numbers in the socalled GBC. Those numbers do not reflect the numbers on the battlefield in any way. I was present during some of the fighting in Omist. Around 66-. BoB got pushed back there because Goons, TCF and RA were relentless. Yes there was some lag, but BoB did not lose those systems due to lag induced by blobs. They lost em due to being too spread out, with too much needed in terms of logistics while fighting an enemy that was close to its homebase. If I look at the battle how it happened in Delve, I don't see any moment where Goons would have been able to must a fleet anywhere near to what was sent to F-T or JV1V. Personally I think that the opportunity was missed for some extremely glorious fleetfights due to titans. If neither side had had titans, I would still not have been so sure about RSF taking BoB out in their homespace. Not with the numbers they were fielding. Which is really my biggest objection. The most fun I had in Eve was in fleetfights of say 100 to 200 on each side. And I think that goes for a lot of people, both on the Coalition side as on BoB side. I've had those in plenty of wars and they were great, especially in systems where the fighting had been going on for a while since then the lag is a bit less. That era is ending, due to the DD. A defender with a DD has a big advantage, and it can be overcome only by attacking in weird timezones when your enemy is mostly offline. That is not a way I would really enjoy winning. Nothing is greater than having your 100 man fleet jump into that 100 man gatecamp on the other side and being able to break through. But soon all the alliances that can field 100 man fleets (IRON being the newest on the block I think) will have titans. And what could be a great fight ends up in a huge deception. Fighting is not just about winning (though that needs to be possible, otherwise it becomes a bit futile) but its also about the fight. Now I agree with you point that excessive blobs should not be able to rule Eve just by force of numbers alone. But seeing how that only really happened twice, and both times over a titan, and considering how many of the really great fleetfights are being ruined, and will only be ruined to a greater degree in the future by titan DDs, I strongly feel that the Doomsday is not a proportional or good method to prevent the megablob. Even if CCP can't fix the POS/sovereignty stuff to nullify the need for huge blobs, I think there has to be a better way to prevent megablobs. Idea, what would happen if 0.0 gates were restricted to 250 jumps per hour? I know the danger of limiting people in a system, but if you just limit specific gates to 250 jumps per hour, you can prevent a defender from blocking a route completely. If he wants to block a specific gate, he would need to jump people through it. If there is an attacker waiting on the other side to be able to use the gate, then a defender can't just keep it occupied without losing ships.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:14:00 - [308] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 03/04/2008 12:14:32 Originally by: maralt 1. DDD are not the reason ppl always try to have more ships than the guys they are fighting. The two instances where really excessive blobs happened was because there was a babytitan to kill. On no other occasion, not even EC- 2 years ago did we see the kind of megablobs that make all play impossible. Quote: 2. PPL are the reason and always have been, (and always will be) why they always try to bring as many as possible. No, CCPs sov mechanics are the reason people bring as many as possible. Better mechanics could reduce the size of blobs. Quote: 3. Titans just force PPL to bring better/higher value ships to kill better/higher value ships. Soon they will force people to bring capitals. A subcapital fleet cannot rely on being able to warp out due to the lag that their presence and the enemies presence creates. The more titans we get, the more this becomes a reality. Quote: 4. Most of the PPL complaining are those who do not have and are unwilling to build there own titans as a counter, or unwilling to risk there capitals and titans to kill capitals and titans. Some might be unwilling, some might be unable. Do you suggest that any alliance that doesn't have titans doesn't deserve to live in 0.0? Nice message for any new players in Eve. Personally, I am not in the sovereignty game, so I don't need a titan. [quote'] 5. We see conventional ship blobs now so maybe we will see cap ship blobs of similar size in the future but the fact is that its all blobbing and at least the price of cap ships will be a factor in how ppl use them instead of seeing 900 frig cruiser blobs. Not really. An insured capital ship doesn't cost more than a few hundred million. With current capital ship prices I could blow up 5 dreads before running out of cash, and I am not very rich. Its more the skills people don't have to fly dreads that limit their use than their cost. Quote: 6. the idea of changing the titans into a dread with 200% more damage and a command ship is a joke cos who would want a 50bil+ fittings ships that 2 deads and a command ship could beat. That was not the whole idea I had. It would include having a 50m m3 ship hangar array (holds close to 100 replacement BS), a 3m m3 cargobay (to transport a complete POS spam in one go if wanted) and a dronebay for 500 fighters. Then add a supercharged tank, and 200% damagebonus per level of the current doomsday weapon skill. Which means a single titan would do the equivalent of something like 5-6 dreadnaughts worth of damage, also without tracking penalty. It would vaporize a battleship with a single volley from 2 or 3 guns probably. Quote: 7. If you dont want you conventional fleet popped by a titan dont be stupid enough to warp them into range of its DDD use your dreads to kill them and your support fleet for support, deads can hit at 230+ easily while most BS cannot so the conventional fleet defending the titans would have to move away from the titans to engage giving your own sniper fleet the ability to engage them out of range of the DDD. Another misrepresentation. Titans will either be sitting in a POS or sitting in a safespot, cloaked. Neither situation gives much chance of just warping dreads to it to shoot it. Once deployed it will warp in on your conventional fleet, fire and attempt to warp out again. Not sure where you find the ability to keep a titan locked down with capitals, and once it becomes 4 or 5 titans, even the best HIC will be fried instantly when they DD. Quote: 8.BUBBLE the defending conventional fleet in range of the DDD forcing them to either POP their own fleet if they pop yours. 9. Increase the lock/combat range of dreads and to 300 or more to help with point 7. Their conventional fleet will not come near the titan unless something went wrong. And with multiple titans they don't need much support anymore
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:48:00 - [309] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 12:51:47 1. If its the "CCPs sov mechanics" thats the problem with blobbing blame them not the titan. 2. Yes i do think that super capitals like titans who have the support of other caps and conventional fleets should need super capitals, capitals and a well co ordinated fleet to defeat them. Its called balance. 3. Yes i think that a alliance wanting to go into 0.0 should not be able to beat an alliance with a large cap fleet, titans, MS and conventional fleet without one of there own where the ** is your balanced game if they could?. 3. So now its a 50bil command ship/5 dread/freighter for 50 bil+ fittings lol no ty. 4. if the titans are in a pos they cannot fire and will need to move out to do so, if they are cloaked they will need to uncloak and warp to a position to DDD and then they are vulnerable (and your conventional fleet should have been aligned and ready to warp away anyway). 5. You ask me how a hic can tank 4 or 5 titans and i say it cannot, so bring reserves of then ffs and if the hic has it and its needing to pop multi ddd to escape your dreads and carrier's should be in position shooting and nueting, bumping anyway, it seems to me that you and others are arguing for a way to kill titans without risk or losses more than being unable to kill them at all.** 6. If you look at what your actually doing now with your posts your coming up with tactics and counters to mine to try to keep them what you consider to be unkillable and if your doing that they are not unkillable in the first place just hard to kill without proper planning, and thats the way they should be.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.03 13:54:00 - [310] You are thinking too much about whether a titan gets killed or not. I shouldn't need to be interested in whether 1 specific ship in the enemy fleet dies. If out of 250 enemies in system, I only need to really worry about 1, how is that not overpowered? The titan I describe is no easier to kill than the current titan. Its probably even harder to kill. At the same time, it would not be the overpowered ship it currently is. You know what, how about we ask CCP to introduce the Polaris frigate. Make it cost 250 billion isk. And anyone whining about it should shut up because they can always collect 250 billion isk and buy one for itself. So its balanced YAY \o/ Lets introduce it right now. The issue is not about whether a titan can be killed at all or not, or whether it should be more easy or difficult to kill. The question is whether the titan promotes gameplay. And I think its pretty obvious that a lot of people agree that titans ruin gameplay. People are walking away from 0.0 warfare because they are fed up with the bull**** of getting wiped out with a single click of a button in a lagged out system and the only ship they could possibly be relevant in is a 1 billion+ capital ship that requires over a year of dedicated training to be any good at.

James Duar	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:07:00 - [311] Wanna know something interesting? Carried out properly, every plan involves 0 losses to your side. Losses are what are supposed to happen when things don't go according to plan. If there is no way to actually kill a Titan without theoretically taking no or minimal losses of fleet assets (i.e. tackler 1 goes boom) then in practice there is no way to a kill a titan period. And all of this, is because of the ******** DDD. Oh and, pro-tip - if the DDD kills everything up to battleships with equal effectiveness (it does after 2-3) then NO IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BRINGING HIGHER VALUE SHIPS.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:11:00 - [312] Originally by: Malachon Draco The issue is not about whether a titan can be killed at all or not, or whether it should be more easy or difficult to kill. The question is whether the titan promotes gameplay. And I think its pretty obvious that a lot of people agree that titans ruin gameplay. People are walking away from 0.0 warfare because they are fed up with the bull**** of getting wiped out with a single click of a button in a lagged out system and the only ship they could possibly be relevant in is a 1 billion+ capital ship that requires over a year of dedicated training to be any good at. Then its the lag and crappy leadership that is ruining the 0.0 game play of ppl not the titan or the DDD. You should be worried about all the ships in system including the titan not only the titan but then if you had a good FC who had lines of communication and intel it would be a good, fun and entertaining and yes risky operation instead of a scary and moronic death cos your leaders do not know how to plan a large scale operation involving your own titans, MS, caps and conventional fleets. Ive jumped into many a system and watched a frozen screen until the all clear was given and i relogged to find myself in a clone vat more times than i can count in the past and i no longer do it but none of those many many times was i popped by a titan remotely or by one on grid nor was there a titan even near the system i was attacking. This thread was started by the OP to be about titans/multiDDD having no counter when that is obviously and totally wrong they just do not have a low risk BC, cruiser frig counter.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:19:00 - [313] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco The issue is not about whether a titan can be killed at all or not, or whether it should be more easy or difficult to kill. The question is whether the titan promotes gameplay. And I think its pretty obvious that a lot of people agree that titans ruin gameplay. People are walking away from 0.0 warfare because they are fed up with the bull**** of getting wiped out with a single click of a button in a lagged out system and the only ship they could possibly be relevant in is a 1 billion+ capital ship that requires over a year of dedicated training to be any good at. Then its the lag and crappy leadership that is ruining the 0.0 game play of ppl not the titan or the DDD. You should be worried about all the ships in system including the titan not only the titan but then if you had a good FC who had lines of communication and intel it would be a good, fun and entertaining and yes risky operation instead of a scary and moronic death cos your leaders do not know how to plan a large scale operation involving your own titans, MS, caps and conventional fleets. Ive jumped into many a system and watched a frozen screen until the all clear was given and i relogged to find myself in a clone vat more times than i can count in the past and i no longer do it but none of those many many times was i popped by a titan remotely or by one on grid nor was there a titan even near the system i was attacking. This thread was started by the OP to be about titans/multiDDD having no counter when that is obviously and totally wrong they just do not have a low risk BC, cruiser frig counter. Once your enemy has a fleet of 250+ ships including a titan in a system, its no longer neccesarily a poor decision or a sign of bad FCing if you get DDed. Its a roll of the dice. If you hit lag as it uncloaks/warps in, you're dead. And all the brilliant FCing in the world cannot prevent that from happening if it happens. A single titan obsoletes everything but a few ubertanked T2 ships, some battleships and capitals. A couple of titans obsoletes everything except capitals. With that it goes against the whole design philosophy behind the ship progression in Eve. No battleship makes other ships obsolete. Carriers don't obsolete any ship, dreadnaughts don't obsolete any ship, motherships don't obsolete any ship. Often they add to the importance of other ships, by supporting them with remote repping or assigning fighters. Titans break that mold.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:19:00 - [314] Originally by: James Duar Wanna know something interesting? Carried out properly, every plan involves 0 losses to your side. Losses are what are supposed to happen when things don't go according to plan. If there is no way to actually kill a Titan without theoretically taking no or minimal losses of fleet assets (i.e. tackler 1 goes boom) then in practice there is no way to a kill a titan period. And all of this, is because of the ******** DDD. Oh and, pro-tip - if the DDD kills everything up to battleships with equal effectiveness (it does after 2-3) then NO IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BRINGING HIGHER VALUE SHIPS. 1. If you want large scale fights that can be planned with 0 losses and carried out with 0 losses your in the wrong game pal cos this is large fleet wars not A LVL60 WOW player killing noobs. 2. If your tackler goes boom you replace him or have you never heard of reserves in warfare?. Cos that is why reserves are there and used for bud. 3. LOL pro-tip from a fool who cannot even read my post let alone have a clue what he is talking about. I was referring to having your own titans, MS and capital to fight the titans(along side your conventional fleetships that should never really be in range of a ddd). But you obviously did not bother to read that in you haste to post such drivel about 0 losses in fleet fights.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:22:00 - [315] How would you prevent a conventional fleet from not getting in range of a DD? Lets say I am in a titan in the system. I have a POS here and I have a cloak and a few covert ops in gang. How do you keep your conventional fleet out of range of my DD? Give me an strategy (one that does not entail huddling inside a POS shield all day long).
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:22:00 - [316] Originally by: Malachon Draco LAG WHINE If this if that. if the other. A lot of ifs that could go either way depending on how the lag gods roll the dice that day, deal with it cos its always gonna be the same and always has been.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:24:00 - [317] Originally by: Malachon Draco How would you prevent a conventional fleet from not getting in range of a DD? Lets say I am in a titan in the system. I have a POS here and I have a cloak and a few covert ops in gang. How do you keep your conventional fleet out of range of my DD? Give me an strategy (one that does not entail huddling inside a POS shield all day long). Are you in the pos or cloaked in a safe?.
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:24:00 - [318] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco LAG WHINE If this if that. if the other. A lot of ifs that could go either way depending on how the lag gods roll the dice that day, deal with it cos its always gonna be the same and always has been. OK, last post you were talking about good FCing, now you at least acknowledge its up to the dice of the lag gods. We're making progress...
Malachon Draco	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:25:00 - [319] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco How would you prevent a conventional fleet from not getting in range of a DD? Lets say I am in a titan in the system. I have a POS here and I have a cloak and a few covert ops in gang. How do you keep your conventional fleet out of range of my DD? Give me an strategy (one that does not entail huddling inside a POS shield all day long). Are you in the pos or cloaked in a safe?. Cloaked at a safe at this point in time.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:28:00 - [320] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco LAG WHINE If this if that. if the other. A lot of ifs that could go either way depending on how the lag gods roll the dice that day, deal with it cos its always gonna be the same and always has been. OK, last post you were talking about good FCing, now you at least acknowledge its up to the dice of the lag gods. We're making progress... Ive never denied that lag was of part of the equation in all fighting in eve including titan ops but it cannot be used for a justification for a titan/ddd nerf until it is proven to only effect systems with multiple/solo titans in and your never gonna do that cos its not true.

maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:30:00 - [321] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 14:33:32 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco How would you prevent a conventional fleet from not getting in range of a DD? Lets say I am in a titan in the system. I have a POS here and I have a cloak and a few covert ops in gang. How do you keep your conventional fleet out of range of my DD? Give me an strategy (one that does not entail huddling inside a POS shield all day long). Are you in the pos or cloaked in a safe?. Cloaked at a safe at this point in time. And where are your other assets like caps and conventional fleets?, oh and they are not allowed in a pos btw (your rules not mine).
James Duar	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:53:00 - [322] Edited by: James Duar on 03/04/2008 15:54:58 Originally by: maralt Originally by: James Duar Wanna know something interesting? Carried out properly, every plan involves 0 losses to your side. Losses are what are supposed to happen when things don't go according to plan. If there is no way to actually kill a Titan without theoretically taking no or minimal losses of fleet assets (i.e. tackler 1 goes boom) then in practice there is no way to a kill a titan period. And all of this, is because of the ******** DDD. Oh and, pro-tip - if the DDD kills everything up to battleships with equal effectiveness (it does after 2-3) then NO IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BRINGING HIGHER VALUE SHIPS. 1. If you want large scale fights that can be planned with 0 losses and carried out with 0 losses your in the wrong game pal cos this is large fleet wars not A LVL60 WOW player killing noobs. 2. If your tackler goes boom you replace him or have you never heard of reserves in warfare?. Cos that is why reserves are there and used for bud. 3. LOL pro-tip from a fool who cannot even read my post let alone have a clue what he is talking about. I was referring to having your own titans, MS and capital to fight the titans(along side your conventional fleetships that should never really be in range of a ddd). But you obviously did not bother to read that in you haste to post such drivel about 0 losses in fleet fights. In theory your fleet ships warp out when they get targeted. In practice not all of them making. Ergo, in theory you are still taking what could conceptually be zero losses. It's the same with assaulting a pos with RR BS etc. And the point about tacklers was they can be considered unavoidable losses if you need to bait a DD or whatever. I never said anything about it working out this way, just that theory should not start with "first 60 BS go in and die...then we send in the next 60". But you know, higher reasoning seems basically beyond you so whatever the options for you are essentially stupid empire troll or BoB alt with the disappointment being focussed on if you're the latter because BoB are not uniformly terrible posters it turns out. Just you.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:58:00 - [323] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 16:10:25 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: maralt Originally by: James Duar Wanna know something interesting? Carried out properly, every plan involves 0 losses to your side. Losses are what are supposed to happen when things don't go according to plan. If there is no way to actually kill a Titan without theoretically taking no or minimal losses of fleet assets (i.e. tackler 1 goes boom) then in practice there is no way to a kill a titan period. And all of this, is because of the ******** DDD. Oh and, pro-tip - if the DDD kills everything up to battleships with equal effectiveness (it does after 2-3) then NO IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BRINGING HIGHER VALUE SHIPS. 1. If you want large scale fights that can be planned with 0 losses and carried out with 0 losses your in the wrong game pal cos this is large fleet wars not A LVL60 WOW player killing noobs. 2. If your tackler goes boom you replace him or have you never heard of reserves in warfare?. Cos that is why reserves are there and used for bud. 3. LOL pro-tip from a fool who cannot even read my post let alone have a clue what he is talking about. I was referring to having your own titans, MS and capital to fight the titans(along side your conventional fleetships that should never really be in range of a ddd). But you obviously did not bother to read that in you haste to post such drivel about 0 losses in fleet fights. blah blah urm urm blah im a clueless noob blah blah Fixed and take your bob alt insults back to caod where it belongs along with your unintelligible, theoretical and conceptual mindless drivel. PS: if you had read my posts properly and without you anti-bob venom spilling over into your replies, you would have seen that i posted ideas on tactics about how to beat there multi titan/ddd fleets instead of crying about them like others.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:29:00 - [324] So I take it maralt, you are speaking from experience?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:53:00 - [325] Originally by: Traeon So I take it maralt, you are speaking from experience? I've led and planned large scale fleet ops if that is what you are referring to with and without titan support and although i have never led a fleet of titans + caps + conventional ships against titans + caps + conventional ships but the fact is that nobody has yet. So crying for a nerf before anybody has even tried to fight like with like is just a pathetic attempt by ppl who do not want to risk those assets to allow them to be killed/beaten by cheaper crap and nothing more.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:56:00 - [326] Care to back that up? This thread had enough theoritcal logorrhea already.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:00:00 - [327] Originally by: Traeon Care to back that up? This thread had enough theoritcal logorrhea already. Back it up with what cos i'm sure if a multiple titan + cap + conventional fleet VS multiple titan + cap + conventional fleet had of happened there would have been a thread or eight about it on every forum.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:04:00 - [328] I meant backing up your first-hand experience with titans, fighting with or against them.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:14:00 - [329] Originally by: Traeon I meant backing up your first-hand experience with titans, fighting with or against them. So if you cannot disprove the tactics i posted you can try to disregard the individual posting them?. Sori bud nice try but if you disagree with my tactical suggestions then post a rebuttal but theres already been way to many BOB alt comments on here for my liking. Plus like i say nobody including myself has actually tried to fight multiple titan + cap + conventional fleet with multiple titan + cap + conventional fleet and that fact alone makes any nerf premature.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:33:00 - [330] I'm not interested in disproving your tactics, I'm interested in seeing whether or not they have any connection to reality, or are just Originally by: maralt unintelligible, theoretical and conceptual mindless drivel as you put it nicely.

maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:42:00 - [331] Originally by: Traeon I'm not interested in disproving your tactics, I'm interested in seeing whether or not they have any connection to reality, or are just Originally by: maralt unintelligible, theoretical and conceptual mindless drivel as you put it nicely. Considering you can read the tactics or at least a basic overview of them it matters not if i'm an 4 day old empire noob or a former FC from one of the games largest alliance's the ideas are there to read and for you to agree with or rebut as i have said. Do you honestly believe though that multi titans/ddd + cap/conv support should be nerfed as "unbeatable" as the OP claims before they have been tested in battle by an equal and opposite force?.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:55:00 - [332] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 17:58:09 You'll only get as much credit for your ideas as the forum alt that you're posting with. Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. People are also complaining about the mere existance of the DD because subcapital fleets were not very strong to begin with and with each titan in system they become less useful.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:06:00 - [333] Originally by: Traeon You'll only get as much credit for your ideas as the forum alt that you're posting with. Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. I give credit for good ideas and good planning in my life and game play the person who gives them is secondary to that, but if your the sort that thinks just because you do not know somebody that you ignore or think there ideas are not worthy you are as much fool as the person who follows blindly the fella who is well known. You need a good mix of all ships to do the job including titans, caps and a conventional fleet to beat a similar force and you cannot get more balanced, skill point and isk varied than that. A select few in titans the older richer pilots in caps the younger less rich in BS/support, perfect symmetry. The real problem is that the cap/super cap pilots do not want to risk there ships but are more than willing to get CCP to nerf the guys who are willing, so they can be killed by cruisers and other cheap crap.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:27:00 - [334] To be honest, I think you're just an example of an armchair general that is afraid of not being taken seriously enough on his main and chooses to use an alt instead... but you only lose credibility with that. What makes me think so? Your comments, your last one for example. How is a subcapital fleet needed to kill titans, dictors/hictors aside? It's not, they have no function that a cap couldn't fulfill better and on top of it are extremely vulnerable to DD's.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:38:00 - [335] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 18:40:58 Originally by: Traeon How is a subcapital fleet needed to kill titans, dictors/hictors aside? It's not, they have no function that a cap couldn't fulfill better and on top of it are extremely vulnerable to DD's. You not just fighting titans remember. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you proly did not read back as far as post188 and around there but even the most basic and noob of FC knows that even in a cap fight there is the need for support. Maybe not for actually engaging the titans but for defending the dreads/carriers from hostile support among other things. I think by your comments that my ideas are a bit to advanced for you bud cos i do not think to mention what i consider to be the blindingly obvious as i consider ppl to just know it. Maybe you should learn fleet ops 101 before you start making claims about what is needed in a mayor cap fleet battle let alone one including titans
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:42:00 - [336] Sure, subcapitals are needed to kill other subcapitals, but I asked about the titans specifically.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:46:00 - [337] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 18:47:33 Originally by: Traeon Sure, subcapitals are needed to kill other subcapitals, but I asked about the titans specifically. Then it was a stupid and pointless question as only idiots fly titans and set off their DDD unsupported in a war zone.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:51:00 - [338] What if other titans are the anti-support? Then subcapital fleets are pretty much pointless.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:55:00 - [339] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 18:56:22 Multiple titans, Capitals and Hictors. That's all what future fleet warfare will be like.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:58:00 - [340] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:01:04 Originally by: Traeon What if other titans are the anti-support? Then subcapital fleets are pretty much pointless. No it just forces the opposing FC's to adapt and maneuver their various fleets properly throughout the battle. Ask any fc if he would willingly take supercaps/titans and caps without support into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer.

gordon cain x13	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:02:00 - [341] Originally by: IamAcontractALT Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 09:04:19 Make HIC's doomsday resistant/immune? Then forces people to risk jumping in dreads to kill titans rather than whine on forums like a baby. 10 titans camping is great HIC can relax attacking while the titans gets rid of non-capital blobs on both sides and forces people to bring capitals only in to fight. And capitals are anti-titan ships. What are you talking about. They can already tank 2 if setup correct. Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:05:00 - [342] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 19:05:44 Quote: Ask any fc if he ould willingly take supercaps/titans and caps only into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer. That's the wrong question, because more of anything certainly isn't going to hurt, even against titans. The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. Which fleet do you think has better chances of holding or taking a system?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:12:00 - [343] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:15:52 Originally by: Traeon Quote: Ask any fc if he ould willingly take supercaps/titans and caps only into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer. That's the wrong question, because more of anything certainly isn't going to hurt, even against titans. The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. Which fleet do you think has better chances of holding or taking a system? You do realize that the fleet with only caps is virtually defenseless (apart from the titans DDD) to the hostile sniper BS and will need to literally sit on top of their friendly titans or get wiped out without being able to hit/destroy a single BS cos of crappy dread tracking?. Personally id go for a mixed fleet of titans, MS, caps and e-war and t2 snipers over a fleet of just titans, MS and caps.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:20:00 - [344] You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:22:00 - [345] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:24:10 Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:34:00 - [346] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 19:36:02 Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 19:34:49 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 19:24:10 Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:07:00 - [347] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:10:44 Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. Your entire cap fleet is gonna be have to move into a area of 10-20km max around your titans for your titan turtle to work and you do not consider that a problem lol have you ever jumped a big cap fleet into a system? the word bounce comes to mind tbqh let alone warping to a single point and not bouncing apart if you actually want to attack something. Do not get me wrong your titan turtle is a good idea but to get that many caps in the same spot all at the same time is a nightmare and totally impractical for any real use apart from sitting still when they finally get close together. Why do you think its ok for ppl to be able to kill titans/super cap and caps without capital support or there own capitals by just spamming crappy fitted T1 rubbish at them?. That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. If you must cry nerf instead of improving your cap fleet and using planning why do'nt you ask to reduce the DDD to 200km or so that would allow your BS blob to shoot at it or them if there is a few of them.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:16:00 - [348] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood You do realize it won't bother a fleet with multiple titans? Try to be a little clearer instead of using one liners you think are clever, this is a great debate we are having (now we are past the name calling and alt comments) and if you wish to contribute then at least include some content. I was responding to your one-liner. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The Titan doomsdays, sniping fleet is gone. For 1 Titan you will need to bring 2 fleets able to kill it in 1 hour. For 2 Titans you will need to bring 3 fleets able to kill one in 30 minutes. And so on. With multiple titans a subcapital fleet is worthless. It is only viable if the opposing side has no Titan. Solution under current game mechanics? You bring in your own Titans plus Capital fleet. Subcapitals are made utterly worthless, larger and larger blobs are the result. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. Your entire cap fleet is gonna be have to move into a area of 10-20km max around your titans for your titan turtle to work and you do not consider that a problem lol have you ever jumped a big cap fleet into a system? the word bounce comes to mind tbqh let alone warping to a single point and not bouncing apart if you actually want to attack something. Do not get me wrong your titan turtle is a good idea but to get that many caps in the same spot all at the same time is a nightmare and totally impractical for any real use apart from sitting still when they finally get close together. Why do you think its ok for ppl to be able to kill titans/super cap and caps without capital support or there own capitals by just spamming crappy fitted T1 rubbish at them?. That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. If you must cry nerf instead of improving your cap fleet and using planning why do'nt you ask to reduce the DDD to 200km or so that would allow your BS blob to shoot at it. Let me respond to your question by more questions: Do you really want to use a T2-fitted ship when you know you're going to be killed by someone pressing 1 button? Would you rather be in a capital ship or a subcapital when going up against a Titan? Do you think it's good for the game if 0.0 consists of throwing Titans+Cap support against Titans+Cap support, and the average PvP'er gets left out, because there really is no fun in flying into battle when you know you're going to be killed by someone pushing 1 button without being able to do anything? Please answer this honestly, because I think we might just have different opinions on what constitutes "fun". And yes, I am an average PvP'er, and I have no interest in flying Capitals ever. HACs and Recons are where it's at.
Zeveron	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:28:00 - [349] I dont get the hole discussion here. Just bring the correct ship to do the job. Just think that Quality > Quantity You are not running LVL4 missions with rifters are you? RA and BoB prooved that titans can be killed with the correct fleet Either use the correct ship for the correct job or stop whining and leave it be Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:28:00 - [350] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:30:50 So you still would prefer 50 T2 sniper BS over 25 dreads and carriers? Okay Now to something else: Quote: That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. The fact that bigger ships are less effective against smaller ones is a fundamental rule in EVE. Titans break this rule - this is where the imbalance is at and nowhere else. Every ship is also less cost effective than a group of ships one size smaller. Quote: Just bring the correct ship to do the job. Most don't like (super)caps online.

maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:34:00 - [351] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:36:31 Originally by: Kingwood Do you really want to use a T2-fitted ship when you know you're going to be killed by someone pressing 1 button?. NO. But it is not 100% or even 1% guaranteed that i will die that way unless you have a kamikaze FC and they do not last long in there jobs tbqh. Originally by: Kingwood Would you rather be in a capital ship or a subcapital when going up against a Titan? Against a titan id fly what was needed to improve the fleet either a moros, thanatos or sniper depending on what support the titan had and what was needed but that is because it would be a fleet operation and not as simple as you want to make it look. Originally by: Kingwood Do you think it's good for the game if 0.0 consists of throwing Titans+Cap support against Titans+Cap support, and the average PvP'er gets left out, because there really is no fun in flying into battle when you know you're going to be killed by someone pushing 1 button without being able to do anything? NO. But you are deliberately over simplifying the maneuvers in such a large scale fleet op into a FC ordering the support into range of all the DDD and that is not the way it should be or if it is done the FC ordering the warp in should be removed from his position. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to zero on top of a smart bombing mega would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Originally by: Kingwood Please answer this honestly, because I think we might just have different opinions on what constitutes "fun". And yes, I am an average PvP'er, and I have no interest in flying Capitals ever. HACs and Recons are where it's at. So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:39:00 - [352] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:39:50 Originally by: Traeon So you still would prefer 50 T2 sniper BS over 25 dreads and carriers? The fact that bigger ships are less effective against smaller ones is a fundamental rule in EVE. Titans break this rule - this is where the imbalance is at and nowhere else. No i said i preferred a mix. Really how effective is a titan against a carrier or dread then cos they are smaller?.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:40:00 - [353] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:43:13 Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:41:14 Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all?
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:47:00 - [354] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop?
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:55:00 - [355] If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:00:00 - [356] Originally by: Kingwood If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better. There is nothing stopping anybody from attacking anything in anything in eve but if you go against certain ships in certain ships your gonna get you ass handed to you and if you go up against several of these ships more fool you. And do not play the "i cannot kill titans in a frig EVE no longer has meaning for me" thing cos its just silly.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:00:00 - [357] Quote: If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lolWink. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:02:00 - [358] Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 21:04:37 Originally by: Traeon Quote: If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lolWink. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea. Maybe 200km would make things more interest...easy for ppl like you.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:04:00 - [359] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Noone is arguing that a few HAC's should be able to take out a Titan.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:06:00 - [360] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 20:50:02 Originally by: Traeon Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? I suppose tanked correctly a bunch of hacs (a fekin large bunch lol) could kill a solo titan but to kill 8??? NO WAY should a bunch of hacs be able to kill 400 bil of super caps + fittings no fekin way. If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lol. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Noone is arguing that a few HAC's should be able to take out a Titan. Originally by: Traeon Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? lol read your own snip ffs.

Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:06:00 - [361] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better. There is nothing stopping anybody from attacking anything in anything in eve but if you go against certain ships in certain ships your gonna get you ass handed to you and if you go up against several of these ships more fool you. And do not play the "i cannot kill titans in a frig EVE no longer has meaning for me" thing cos its just silly. If I'm in a subcapital attacking a Titan I expect to be pretty much worthless, but I'm adding my few DPS anyway. Noone is arguing it should be easy, it just shouldn't be the case of "push button, blow away 300 ships". Is that so hard to understand?
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:07:00 - [362] Edited by: Kingwood on 03/04/2008 21:14:01 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 21:06:29 Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: Traeon Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? lol read your own snip ffs. It would be easier to take you more seriously if you actually posted with your main. Edit: Unnecessary sentence
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:12:00 - [363] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better. There is nothing stopping anybody from attacking anything in anything in eve but if you go against certain ships in certain ships your gonna get you ass handed to you and if you go up against several of these ships more fool you. And do not play the "i cannot kill titans in a frig EVE no longer has meaning for me" thing cos its just silly. If I'm in a subcapital attacking a Titan I expect to be pretty much worthless, but I'm adding my few DPS anyway. Noone is arguing it should be easy, it just shouldn't be the case of "push button, blow away 300 ships". Is that so hard to understand? You act like they just sit there solo popping off loads with nothing else on grid to tackle or shoot at. And its push button pop 300 ships that were daft enough to fly into range and not be able to tank it. Why is that so hard to understand?.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:13:00 - [364] Cooldowntimer: 1hr Keep the other drawback timer(s) at 10min. Hell DAOC had pretty much the same thing, PBAOE caster + with mastery of concentration + Castle stairs. With a few people doing it, it was great for some killspam but wouldnt break a siege. With enough people however, you could stop just about anything short of the entire server. Thing was, only worked once an hour. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:13:00 - [365] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: Traeon Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all? lol read your own snip ffs. You have the reading comprehension of a 12 year old. It would be easier to take you more seriously if you actually posted with your main. He said exactly that and im the one with reading comprehension?.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:28:00 - [366] Originally by: maralt And my arguments would be the same on my main the only difference would be that you would avoid my point by trying to discredit my main. Deal with the points made do'nt avoid them with alt insults cos ive never mentioned the fact that your a goon and that they have a certain "style" of 0.0 warfare shall we say. I'm not trying to discredit your main, I'm trying to see where your opinion comes from. If you're an empire dweller I'm not gonna put much weight on your opinion. If you live in 0.0 and know what you're talking about, it's easier to take your points more seriously.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:42:00 - [367] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt And my arguments would be the same on my main the only difference would be that you would avoid my point by trying to discredit my main. Deal with the points made do'nt avoid them with alt insults cos ive never mentioned the fact that your a goon and that they have a certain "style" of 0.0 warfare shall we say. I'm not trying to discredit your main, I'm trying to see where your opinion comes from. If you're an empire dweller I'm not gonna put much weight on your opinion. If you live in 0.0 and know what you're talking about, it's easier to take your points more seriously. If you know what your talking about then you will understand my points and while perhaps disagree with them also respect them as knowledgeable, knowing who my main is should be irrelevant under those circumstances. Although i am a near 5 year xp pvper have fought in 0.0 for most of those years (although with breaks) and i have led and planned many large scale fleet ops some including titans and against them. I post with a alt to avoid arguments about how much knowledge ppl have or do not have on subjects and force them to focus on the material posted. And i also never comment on a persons alliance in regard to their opinion/postings unless replying to a similar insult or acusation.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:49:00 - [368] Just make it so only 1 DD can be fired on a single grid every 60 mins... ? Removing them completely is a stupid idea. 8 Titans is a huge investment. There should be some advantage in owning them, don't you think? ...
Ort Lofthus	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:52:00 - [369] First: Titans are most valuable as a logistical tool, then as a terror weapon, and lastly for the effect of the DDD. Just as bane glorious predicted in his titan thread, they have become numerous and the last DDD nerf (increasing titan vulnerability) was insufficient. Simple situation right now is that the DDD becomes exponentially more powerful the more you have. I'll postulate that simply having the DDD do damage at all is overpowered for the following reason: If you halve the damage it does, then twice as many titans bring us to where we are now: overpowered DDD. Furthermore, reducing the power of the DDD actually favors those who own multiple titans and hurts those who only have one. Removal of the DDD is impossible simply because at this point in EvE it is hard to justify anything's removal, paticularly something as expensive and skill intensive as the DDD. Therefore, the DDD should simply be rebalanced to have a non-damaging effect. Ideas for the revised effect: Minmatar: Deadspace effect or webbification at the target location for a period of time. Gallente: Sensor dampening for a period of time. Something like 50% reduction in range and scan resolution. Forces closer engagements but still allows 'sniping' at shorter distances. Amarr: This is a hard one. Mega-Neut is hard to balance with ship sizes from frigs to caps. TD effect is interesting because locking range is maintained, but hurts all gunboats. Warp disruption is a great effect and synergistic with the other effects, but is properly a gallente EWAR (and damps are too good of a DDD effect to leave out). I would probably go with warp disruption. Caldari: Periodic ECM burst at the location. Favors ships that fit ECCM, in particular capital ships and battleships.
Acidictadpole	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:53:00 - [370] I think the fix should entail something that prevents multiple (maybe more than 2 DD's) from being set off in a grid within a certain time. The reason could be attributed to how the doomsday damage propagates and it can't work again if it's been used recently in the same area.

Maliber	Posted - 2008.04.03 23:29:00 - [371] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood If someone wants to fly a subcapital, why are they automatically excluded from attacking anything including a Titan? That's what drew me to Eve initially, that even a clueless new player in a frig could already tackle and play an important role in a fleet. Titans changed that, and it's not a change for the better. There is nothing stopping anybody from attacking anything in anything in eve but if you go against certain ships in certain ships your gonna get you ass handed to you and if you go up against several of these ships more fool you. And do not play the "i cannot kill titans in a frig EVE no longer has meaning for me" thing cos its just silly. If I'm in a subcapital attacking a Titan I expect to be pretty much worthless, but I'm adding my few DPS anyway. Noone is arguing it should be easy, it just shouldn't be the case of "push button, blow away 300 ships". Is that so hard to understand? lols a dd isnt hard to survive and a its certainly nothing to do with blow away 300 ships.... except when facing goons in t1 cruisers it does 200% damage and rightfully so... should be like eleventy111thousand in my book tho including a threadnoaght... after all the forum manipulation you guys tried. Go cry me a river....
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.04 00:22:00 - [372] Edited by: Traeon on 04/04/2008 00:22:58 Quote: I think the fix should entail something that prevents multiple (maybe more than 2 DD's) from being set off in a grid within a certain time. DD spam can be abused in ways that do not involve the titans to stay on the same grid, so that would only be a partial fix. Let me sum up and expand on my previous posts here about balancing the doomsday machine: Diminishing returns feature, ie. space in an entire system becomes "depleted" after a DD is fired and for the next hour subsequent DD's do less damage. First DD does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. This puts a stop to the DD spam while not making multiple titans completely useless. Here's a chart that shows how much damage simultaneous DD's would do: 1x 70000 2x 105000 3x 122500 4x 131250 5x 135625 6x 137812 7x 138906 A typical "doomsday proof" fleet BS has anywhere between 80 to 115k effective hp depending on the damage type received according to my EFT. That's with 4 slots dedicated to tanking. Gang skills and mods would increase this somewhat in practice. For a BS at least even several doomsdays would be tankable if the damage type received was favorable or they were specifically tanked against it. A well tanked HICtor would be able to live through several to infinite simultaneous DD's, which is just how it should have been all along in my opinion. In short titans couldn't "do the job" by themselves anymore (or at least only kill those ships particularely vulnerable to their DD damage type) and would need their own subcap fleet to capitalize on the situation, finishing off the heavily damaged battleships. Dictors would also be more important. All in all, it sounds like this change would create a more acceptable scenario for a subcapital pilot without making DD's worthless. There is one other aspect though that needs to looked at and it's about frigate/dictor pilots. Even without DD's they're almost certainly going to lose their ships in a fleet battle anyway, so I think there needs to be a mechanic that protects them against DD's. HACs/Recons are also very vulnerable. What's needed here is a new ship attribute that determines the amount of damage a DD does to a ship. This would otherwise work exactly the same way as explosion radius and ship signature radius do for missile damage calculation. Why not use signature radius though? Signature radius can simply vary too much ingame (MWD's, target painters, evasive maneuvers ganglink, halo implants and the effect of a minmatar titan).
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:31:00 - [373] Originally by: Malachon Draco I think you focus too much on 2 instances on where it happened. People never blobbed hugely except in the very exceptional circumstances of F-T and JV1V. I actually don't think about these two at all. I'm more thinking about the cases where you have like 10+ minute load/module lag..... These will generally happen whenever 200-300 or more people are shooting each other. Originally by: Malachon Draco The most fun I had in Eve was in fleetfights of say 100 to 200 on each side. And I think that goes for a lot of people, both on the Coalition side as on BoB side. I've had those in plenty of wars and they were great, especially in systems where the fighting had been going on for a while since then the lag is a bit less. That era is ending, due to the DD. I don't agree that's the reason. The real reason IMHO is that with todays server mechanics, if 150 jumps into another 150, the 150 jumping in will loose at least half (maybe all) of their force before they start to load..... Originally by: Malachon Draco Now I agree with you point that excessive blobs should not be able to rule Eve just by force of numbers alone. But seeing how that only really happened twice, and both times over a titan, and considering how many of the really great fleetfights are being ruined, and will only be ruined to a greater degree in the future by titan DDs, I strongly feel that the Doomsday is not a proportional or good method to prevent the megablob. Even if CCP can't fix the POS/sovereignty stuff to nullify the need for huge blobs, I think there has to be a better way to prevent megablobs. How? (ps, I don't agree on the 'twice' part. Its happened a lot more, though not to the same degree) I don't think your jumpgate restriction will work, oddly enough because of titans (jump bridge). I can also see people jumping back/forth to defend/attack/annoy. Number limits on anything never really works because it's too easy to abuse. Originally by: James Duar Oh and, pro-tip - if the DDD kills everything up to battleships with equal effectiveness (it does after 2-3) then NO IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BRINGING HIGHER VALUE SHIPS. Why not? Last I looked dreads and carriers were higher value than battleships, and didn't get notably affected by any abilities of a titan (incl. DD). Originally by: Malachon Draco Once your enemy has a fleet of 250+ ships including a titan in a system, its no longer neccesarily a poor decision or a sign of bad FCing if you get DDed. Its a roll of the dice. And then again, if their titan gets hit by lag, you get yourself a shiny new titan killmail. Its not just a gamble for the side without a titan..... Originally by: Malachon Draco How would you prevent a conventional fleet from not getting in range of a DD? Lets say I am in a titan in the system. I have a POS here and I have a cloak and a few covert ops in gang. How do you keep your conventional fleet out of range of my DD? Give me an strategy (one that does not entail huddling inside a POS shield all day long). Scanning will normally work unless you happen to warp to where he is. Not warping all at once is another good one. Then you'll have ships even if he DD's. Being aligned to warp out is another good one (so many people forget this). Having a solid backup fleet and caps on standby will make most titan pilots quite careful. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:32:00 - [374] Originally by: Traeon Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. So because a ship type is nearly useless in fighting another type of ship, the ship it is useless against should be nerfed? Damn, all those combat ships should be nerfed since haulers are useless against them! Quite a lot of people HAVE trained for caps (otherwise why all the whining about 'capitals online') but that hasn't removed the usability of conventional ships much (if at all). They're still suppreme for most fleet fights as well as roaming (and this is by far most of what goes on in 0.0). Capitals just added another layer on top of the challenge pyramid, but didn't noticably touch what was there before. Originally by: Traeon The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. If he doesn't choose option 2, eventually he'll end up with a lot of dead capitals.... Originally by: Kingwood I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. How is a fleet consisting of Titans and Cap support vulnerable to sniping BS's? The hard part is understanding why you are so afraid to commit your capital ships to kill those titans..... When I want to drive in a nail, I don't select a screwdriver to do it with.... Using the right tool for a job usually makes it a lot easier.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:42:00 - [375] Originally by: Traeon Let me sum up and expand on my previous posts here about balancing the doomsday machine: Diminishing returns feature, ie. space in an entire system becomes "depleted" after a DD is fired and for the next hour subsequent DD's do less damage. First DD does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. This puts a stop to the DD spam while not making multiple titans completely useless. It does make DD's useless if you're against someone else with them too..... All one has to do is pre-emptively blowing one or even two of them at the place one intends the battle to be fought.... Stacking limits never works if they are cumulative for both sides as they're always exploitable..... (ie. one party drinking all the free beer before the other is ready) I still can't see why someone willing to commit 100b's of ISK worth of hardware shouldn't be able to be relative immune unless the opponent commits similar resources..... Other capitals are devastating to titans, but the scenario always brought forth is the BS vs. Titan, which to be quite honest is pretty bad tactics (to say it politely...). Use your conventional fleet to cut off hostile reinforcements while your capitals kill their cap's & titans... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:19:00 - [376] How do you get your caps in first?
Bozse Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.04 16:55:00 - [377] Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea. Not as a single sollution as it's way to big of a nerf. Combine it with the following and you have a reasonable remake of the DD. Ideas for the revised effect: Minmatar: Deadspace effect or webbification at the target location for a period of time. Gallente: Sensor dampening for a period of time. Something like 50% reduction in range and scan resolution. Forces closer engagements but still allows 'sniping' at shorter distances. Amarr: This is a hard one. Mega-Neut is hard to balance with ship sizes from frigs to caps. TD effect is interesting because locking range is maintained, but hurts all gunboats. Warp disruption is a great effect and synergistic with the other effects, but is properly a gallente EWAR (and damps are too good of a DDD effect to leave out). I would probably go with warp disruption. Caldari: Periodic ECM burst at the location. Favors ships that fit ECCM, in particular capital ships and battleships. Web effect perhaps sound cool but is fairly useless unless combined with scrambling effect at the same time as web only helps you align faster for warpout, TD / SD / ECM works aswell, Neut can be a bit tricky unless you use a set % deduction. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
ca chinger	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:12:00 - [378] Originally by: FERRET MAN No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. so cos you cant work out a way around it you cry more tears and for nerfs? if you dont like it then dont play with them in the first place. just a FYI a heavy dictor can tank upto 3 dd's if you know how to set them up for it. i'm not going to tell how you to combat it b'cos if you cant work it out yourself then you have no clue about how this game really works and should just quit instead of whine
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:15:00 - [379] Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:16:00 - [380] Edited by: Kingwood on 04/04/2008 17:16:23 Originally by: ca chinger Originally by: FERRET MAN No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. so cos you cant work out a way around it you cry more tears and for nerfs? if you dont like it then dont play with them in the first place. just a FYI a heavy dictor can tank upto 3 dd's if you know how to set them up for it. i'm not going to tell how you to combat it b'cos if you cant work it out yourself then you have no clue about how this game really works and should just quit instead of whine Oh hey, tell me how to tank a hictor for 4 DD's. Tell me how to tank a BS for 4 DD's. Tia

Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:21:00 - [381] Originally by: maralt Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is. So what you're saying is that new players should stay in Empire and Low Sec for 2 years, and only then move to 0.0? Great idea. One of the big points of Eve is that you're useful as a 2-week old newbie in a tackling frigate. Titans and their doomsdays change that. You really think this is for the better?
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:23:00 - [382] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: ca chinger Originally by: FERRET MAN No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays. You cannot pin down a Titan with a heavy dictor because three of his buddies will simply doomsday the heavy dictors away. You cannot have waves of ships ready because then can just continuously doomsday your support away. You cannot siege towers. You cannot repair towers. You cannot jump through a gate. You cannot jump bridge in. You cannot log in. You cannot DO ANYTHING AT ALL. so cos you cant work out a way around it you cry more tears and for nerfs? if you dont like it then dont play with them in the first place. just a FYI a heavy dictor can tank upto 3 dd's if you know how to set them up for it. i'm not going to tell how you to combat it b'cos if you cant work it out yourself then you have no clue about how this game really works and should just quit instead of whine Oh hey, tell me how to tank a hictor for 4 DD's. Tell me how to tank a BS for 4 DD's. Tia 1 cannot tank 4 but 2 can tank 6, 3 can tank 9.......
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:35:00 - [383] Edited by: maralt on 04/04/2008 17:36:58 Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is. So what you're saying is that new players should stay in Empire and Low Sec for 2 years, and only then move to 0.0? Great idea. One of the big points of Eve is that you're useful as a 2-week old newbie in a tackling frigate. Titans and their doomsdays change that. You really think this is for the better? I think that if a bunch of "2-week old noobies" as you call them put together an alliance they should not be able to beat a full 0.0 alliance with capitals, titans, MS. Unless there membership includes caps, titans, MS.......... its called balance.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:40:00 - [384] Edited by: Kingwood on 04/04/2008 17:40:46 Originally by: maralt Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: maralt Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is. So what you're saying is that new players should stay in Empire and Low Sec for 2 years, and only then move to 0.0? Great idea. One of the big points of Eve is that you're useful as a 2-week old newbie in a tackling frigate. Titans and their doomsdays change that. You really think this is for the better? I think that if a bunch of "2-week old noobies" as you call them put together an alliance they should not be able to beat a full 0.0 alliance with capitals, titans, MS. Unless there membership includes caps, titans, MS.......... ITS CALLED BALANCE. I'm not saying it's all 2-week old players establishing an alliance themselves. I'm asking you what use those 2-week old players are once they join an already established alliance. They are useless in any fleet-fight involving Titans. They are mostly useless in any fleet-fight involving Capitals. You call this balance? Obviously they could freeload and rat for 2 years. Yeah, great fun.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:48:00 - [385] Edited by: maralt on 04/04/2008 17:52:08 Originally by: Kingwood I'm not saying it's all 2-week old players establishing an alliance themselves. I'm asking you what use those 2-week old players are once they join an already established players. They are useless in any fleet-fight involving Titans. They are mostly useless in any fleet-fight involving Capitals. You call this balance? Obviously they could freeload and rat for 2 years. Yeah, great fun. Mostly useless as in able to damp or scram a cap ship after the DDD has fired?. Plus fast to warp in a frig/cruiser and easily able to avoid the DDD in the first place. Theres plenty of things in 0.0 warfare for a noob to do and plenty that they cannot do because of there skill level and available ships. The titan cannot be tackled by anything apart from a dic or hic even without the DDD so a frig/cruiser is totally worthless against a titan even if it had DDD immunity. The titan/DDD stops ppl from zerging 0.0 systems and that is a very good thing for eve and all players who want to improve.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.04 20:23:00 - [386] Edited by: Traeon on 04/04/2008 20:25:04 Originally by: Bozse Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea. Not as a single sollution as it's way to big of a nerf. Yea I wasn't being completely serious and apologize for it. Making DD's ewar modules seems pretty big role change, but the concept is fine. The problem is though that people are still encouraged to mass titans if they can. What's better than a caldari titan doing 250km ECM bursts? 2 caldari titans? and what's even better 3 of them and so on... On th plus side DD'ing would really be pointless without a support fleet.
Bozse	Posted - 2008.04.04 22:06:00 - [387] Yea I wasn't being completely serious and apologize for it. Making DD's ewar modules seems pretty big role change, but the concept is fine. The problem is though that people are still encouraged to mass titans if they can. What's better than a caldari titan doing 250km ECM bursts? 2 caldari titans? and what's even better 3 of them and so on... On th plus side DD'ing would really be pointless without a support fleet. The idea with the different EW effects isn't refined in any way and have to be concidered but it's the most viable change i can see atm for the DD, for the stacking issue id say make them simply not stack, then the multiple titans would give you an advantage that you can fire them in a row but stacking them at the same time doesn't cause an issue. The reason to keep the 30-40k range of the current DD is as either a strategical weapon with high risk due to the range or as the last resort to clear tacklers if pined down. All the super caps needs to be reworked imo as the MS lacks a clearcut role and both titans and MS lacks in the tanking department, especialy with the doubble fix to scramble them (imo heavy dictors was a good sollution or the dictor bubbles, both was an overkill) Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.05 04:50:00 - [388] Originally by: Bozse Yea I wasn't being completely serious and apologize for it. Making DD's ewar modules seems pretty big role change, but the concept is fine. The problem is though that people are still encouraged to mass titans if they can. What's better than a caldari titan doing 250km ECM bursts? 2 caldari titans? and what's even better 3 of them and so on... On th plus side DD'ing would really be pointless without a support fleet. The idea with the different EW effects isn't refined in any way and have to be concidered but it's the most viable change i can see atm for the DD, for the stacking issue id say make them simply not stack, then the multiple titans would give you an advantage that you can fire them in a row but stacking them at the same time doesn't cause an issue. The reason to keep the 30-40k range of the current DD is as either a strategical weapon with high risk due to the range or as the last resort to clear tacklers if pined down. All the super caps needs to be reworked imo as the MS lacks a clearcut role and both titans and MS lacks in the tanking department, especialy with the doubble fix to scramble them (imo heavy dictors was a good sollution or the dictor bubbles, both was an overkill) Damn fine suggestions - boost super cap tanks (I think everyone agrees on that) the method is a bit tricker. Extra bonus? Bonus to remote reps on it? etc. The problem with e-war DDD's is that the caldari/amarr ones would clearly dwarf their mim/gallente counterparts. Cyno jammers using CPU and having an increased anchoring delay, supercap tanks being buffed (the method being up for debate of course), and DDD's being tweaked in one direction or another. I think all sides, other than the trolls of course, can agree on some of those basic points.
Angelonico	Posted - 2008.04.05 04:59:00 - [389] Double post as I realized I actually typed this. "I openly encourage bob AND goons to keep posting constructively. This thread has potential in more ways than one." I think that sentence entering any thread on an EVE forum might cause some sort of CAOD existential meltdown. We can only pray. Thanks - Hutch
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.05 11:28:00 - [390] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 04/04/2008 17:20:05 Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is and ppl are whining before multi titans have been tested properly. reducing it to under snaper range woudl be at least a good thing because will indeed have that effect . Givign battleshisp a fightign chance, slim but a fighting chance. PERSONALLY I woudl diminish to 180 km to be fair with all flavors of snipers (not all can fight over 200 km) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

maralt	Posted - 2008.04.05 11:52:00 - [391] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: maralt Reducing it down to 200km should be the most if its gonna be reduced at all, at least then it will stop ppl from bringing a crap load of frigs and cruisers to own 0.0 and force ppl to at least improve there fleets. Personally i think its ok as it is and ppl are whining before multi titans have been tested properly. reducing it to under sniper range would be at least a good thing because will indeed have that effect . Giving battleships a fighting chance, slim but a fighting chance. PERSONALLY I would diminish to 180 km to be fair with all flavors of snipers (not all can fight over 200 km) 1. A 180-200+ down from 250km it would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. 2. It would still prevent zerging to gain space. 3. Dic's and hic's would still be popped by multi DDD blasts but then if you want to kill several titan's losing a few tacklers and having to replace them should not be the end of the world. 4. It would solve the cyno jammer issue as a fleet of BS could shoot the jammer out of range of the DDD blasts unless the titan comes into range forcing them to reposition or die.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.05 13:08:00 - [392] Quote: 1. At 200km reduced down from 250km would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. Titans are already used offensively almost the entire time in my experience simply because no subcapital fleet will warp in on the same grid as the titan, unless it's a cynojammer scenario. In all other situations it's the titan that warps in onto the fleet, and 200km range isn't going to change much if anything at all. All that makes the current incarnation of DD's overpowered is still there.
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.05 13:18:00 - [393] Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 13:30:00 Originally by: Traeon Quote: 1. At 200km reduced down from 250km would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. 2. It would still prevent zerging to gain space. 3. Dic's and hic's would still be popped by multi DDD blasts but then if you want to kill several titan's losing a few tacklers and having to replace them should not be the end of the world. 4. It would solve the cyno jammer issue as a fleet of BS could shoot the jammer out of range of the DDD blasts unless the titan comes into range forcing them to reposition or die. Titans are already used offensively almost the entire time in my experience simply because no subcapital fleet will warp in on the same grid as the titan, unless it's a cynojammer scenario. In all other situations it's the titan that warps in onto the fleet, and 200km range isn't going to change much if anything at all. All that makes the current incarnation of DD's overpowered is still there. 1. 200km DDD means a jammer can be popped by BS without getting hit by a DDD and the BS can also hit a titan if needed also outside DDD range. 2. If the titans warps in range, then you warp out of range/off grid, aligning is quite simple really maybe you should go back to the noobie school for pvpers.
Havoc GunStar	Posted - 2008.04.05 15:49:00 - [394] Originally by: maralt 2. If the titans warps in range, then you warp out of range/off grid, aligning is quite simple really maybe you should go back to the noobie school for pvpers. Lately the lag created by the superweapon has had more of an impact on your ability to do anything when it's fired. In the past when Shrike would fire off his doomsday, I was always able to see it, and warp out. Last time not only did I not see the animation (all effects on), but I didn't even see him on grid till I'd lost control of my ship. Anyway, if we want to push this toward full on capital combat, give me a captial class tackling module that will pin down a mothership or a titan. When faced with 8 titans, even attacking them with capitals becomes impossible if the only ship that can tackle them is a sub-captial. Captial Warp Disruptors and Capital Stasis Webifiers please. Both of which should ignore the 'immune to ewar' get out of jail free card.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.05 16:43:00 - [395] Originally by: Havoc GunStar Originally by: maralt 2. If the titans warps in range, then you warp out of range/off grid, aligning is quite simple really maybe you should go back to the noobie school for pvpers. Lately the lag created by the superweapon has had more of an impact on your ability to do anything when it's fired. In the past when Shrike would fire off his doomsday, I was always able to see it, and warp out. Last time not only did I not see the animation (all effects on), but I didn't even see him on grid till I'd lost control of my ship. Anyway, if we want to push this toward full on capital combat, give me a captial class tackling module that will pin down a mothership or a titan. When faced with 8 titans, even attacking them with capitals becomes impossible if the only ship that can tackle them is a sub-captial. Captial Warp Disruptors and Capital Stasis Webifiers please. Both of which should ignore the 'immune to ewar' get out of jail free card. Lag effects every type of pvp, even small gang type on occasion and is no reason to nerf any ship. And although all hic's and dic's can be popped by multi DDD blasts id hardly call that a reason for removing the ewar immunity on super caps either, as a hic or dic can just as easily be popped by a bunch of ftr drones or the titans support fleet as well as a multi DDD blast so it still boils down to having reserves ready.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.05 19:51:00 - [396] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 05/04/2008 19:51:17 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 13:30:00 Originally by: Traeon Quote: 1. At 200km reduced down from 250km would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. 2. It would still prevent zerging to gain space. 3. Dic's and hic's would still be popped by multi DDD blasts but then if you want to kill several titan's losing a few tacklers and having to replace them should not be the end of the world. 4. It would solve the cyno jammer issue as a fleet of BS could shoot the jammer out of range of the DDD blasts unless the titan comes into range forcing them to reposition or die. Titans are already used offensively almost the entire time in my experience simply because no subcapital fleet will warp in on the same grid as the titan, unless it's a cynojammer scenario. In all other situations it's the titan that warps in onto the fleet, and 200km range isn't going to change much if anything at all. All that makes the current incarnation of DD's overpowered is still there. 1. 200km DDD means a jammer can be popped by BS without getting hit by a DDD and the BS can also hit a titan if needed also outside DDD range. 2. If the titans warps in range, then you warp out of range/off grid, aligning is quite simple really maybe you should go back to the noobie school for pvpers. Ahaha, you really havent done enough fleet combat in 3-4 mins module lag havent you. The warping in titan will DD before the aligned ships can warp off if the lag is bad enough. If the titan pilots want to be sure their DD's hit they can get a warpin to the center of the bs blob, sending everyone out of alignment. Or if the lag isnt bad enough they can suicide a regular dictor and drop a bubble right on the fleet of bs. In a real fleet situation against an enemy that knows what they are doing, and arn't completely dumb, your battleship group will be unable to warp off before the DD can hit. I find the 30km range one more interesting, because it lets frigates and cruisers potentially mwd out of range, instead of having to leave grid and reload grid when they come back, and it lets fleets use warp bubbles to try to catch the titan out of DD range of their bs group in a regular fight. --
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:51:00 - [397] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 05/04/2008 19:51:17 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 13:30:00 Originally by: Traeon Quote: 1. At 200km reduced down from 250km would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. 2. It would still prevent zerging to gain space. 3. Dic's and hic's would still be popped by multi DDD blasts but then if you want to kill several titan's losing a few tacklers and having to replace them should not be the end of the world. 4. It would solve the cyno jammer issue as a fleet of BS could shoot the jammer out of range of the DDD blasts unless the titan comes into range forcing them to reposition or die. Titans are already used offensively almost the entire time in my experience simply because no subcapital fleet will warp in on the same grid as the titan, unless it's a cynojammer scenario. In all other situations it's the titan that warps in onto the fleet, and 200km range isn't going to change much if anything at all. All that makes the current incarnation of DD's overpowered is still there. 1. 200km DDD means a jammer can be popped by BS without getting hit by a DDD and the BS can also hit a titan if needed also outside DDD range. 2. If the titans warps in range, then you warp out of range/off grid, aligning is quite simple really maybe you should go back to the noobie school for pvpers. Ahaha, you really havent done enough fleet combat in 3-4 mins module lag havent you. The warping in titan will DD before the aligned ships can warp off if the lag is bad enough. If the titan pilots want to be sure their DD's hit they can get a warpin to the center of the bs blob, sending everyone out of alignment. Or if the lag isnt bad enough they can suicide a regular dictor and drop a bubble right on the fleet of bs. In a real fleet situation against an enemy that knows what they are doing, and arn't completely dumb, your battleship group will be unable to warp off before the DD can hit. I find the 30km range one more interesting, because it lets frigates and cruisers potentially mwd out of range, instead of having to leave grid and reload grid when they come back, and it lets fleets use warp bubbles to try to catch the titan out of DD range of their bs group in a regular fight. Ive fought in 0.0 since almost the beginning from small gangs to some of the biggest fleet ops eve has seen titans included and blaming the lag is a absurd reason to nerf a ship cos it applies to all forms of pvp. If your alliance cannot even watch a simple scanner for a dic, hic or a titan incoming then its your crappy FC's and pvp trainers who are either completely dumb or need to get more fleet training.
Bozse	Posted - 2008.04.05 23:18:00 - [398] Anyway, if we want to push this toward full on capital combat, give me a captial class tackling module that will pin down a mothership or a titan. When faced with 8 titans, even attacking them with capitals becomes impossible if the only ship that can tackle them is a sub-captial. Captial Warp Disruptors and Capital Stasis Webifiers please. Both of which should ignore the 'immune to ewar' get out of jail free card. Captial warp disruptors is fine by me, under the condition that you remove dictors / heavy dictors ability to tackle capitals as we most defenatly don't need a third nerf to one of the bigest selling points to super caps (especialy MS) which is EW immunity, webs nor any other EW shuld be able to bypass the EW immunity. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
maralt	Posted - 2008.04.05 23:27:00 - [399] Originally by: Bozse Anyway, if we want to push this toward full on capital combat, give me a captial class tackling module that will pin down a mothership or a titan. When faced with 8 titans, even attacking them with capitals becomes impossible if the only ship that can tackle them is a sub-captial. Captial Warp Disruptors and Capital Stasis Webifiers please. Both of which should ignore the 'immune to ewar' get out of jail free card. Captial warp disruptors is fine by me, under the condition that you remove dictors / heavy dictors ability to tackle capitals as we most defenatly don't need a third nerf to one of the bigest selling points to super caps (especialy MS) which is EW immunity, webs nor any other EW shuld be able to bypass the EW immunity. So aside from keeping the titan from jumping out of the system (a negative effect btw) what is the diff between a dic or hic getting popped by multi DDD or a ftr swarm, support fleet......?
Xeliya Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.06 01:26:00 - [400] Originally by: Bozse Anyway, if we want to push this toward full on capital combat, give me a captial class tackling module that will pin down a mothership or a titan. When faced with 8 titans, even attacking them with capitals becomes impossible if the only ship that can tackle them is a sub-captial. Captial Warp Disruptors and Capital Stasis Webifiers please. Both of which should ignore the 'immune to ewar' get out of jail free card. Captial warp disruptors is fine by me, under the condition that you remove dictors / heavy dictors ability to tackle capitals as we most defenatly don't need a third nerf to one of the bigest selling points to super caps (especialy MS) which is EW immunity, webs nor any other EW shuld be able to bypass the EW immunity. This, I always voted for capital disruptor but it needs to be done properly like requiring large amounts of cap to keep them going or require very specialize skills/fittings. Still find it silly a ship a couple hundred m's long can disrupt the warp/jump of a ship the size of a small city.

Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 01:50:00 - [401] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 06/04/2008 01:52:50 Originally by: maralt Ive fought in 0.0 since almost the beginning from small gangs to some of the biggest fleet ops eve has seen titans included and blaming the lag is a absurd reason to nerf a ship cos it applies to all forms of pvp. If your alliance cannot even watch a simple scanner for a dic, hic or a titan incoming then its your crappy FC's and pvp trainers who are either completely dumb or need to get more fleet training. I did not suggest the titan should be nerfed because of lag. All I stated is the simple fact that you cant always warp out, even if you are aligned if the lag is bad enough. And on top of that if you read my suggestion, in order for the FC of the other fleet to be ready to intercept the titan in warp to make sure it falls outside of DD range they would obviously have to know where its at. Nope you seem more interested in the political discussion here and resorting to personal attacks. I am suggesting, however that either titans need to be less able to kill bs blobs, or cynojammers mechanics will have to be changed at some point. Otherwise we will see systems changing hands very very slowly when one side catches another off guard. --
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:35:00 - [402] Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 10:40:59 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: maralt Ive fought in 0.0 since almost the beginning from small gangs to some of the biggest fleet ops eve has seen titans included and blaming the lag is a absurd reason to nerf a ship cos it applies to all forms of pvp. If your alliance cannot even watch a simple scanner for a dic, hic or a titan incoming then its your crappy FC's and pvp trainers who are either completely dumb or need to get more fleet training. I did not suggest the titan should be nerfed because of lag. All I stated is the simple fact that you cant always warp out, even if you are aligned if the lag is bad enough. And on top of that if you read my suggestion, in order for the FC of the other fleet to be ready to intercept the titan in warp to make sure it falls outside of DD range they would obviously have to know where its at. Nope you seem more interested in the political discussion here and resorting to personal attacks. I am suggesting, however that either titans need to be less able to kill bs blobs, or cynojammers mechanics will have to be changed at some point. Otherwise we will see systems changing hands very very slowly when one side catches another off guard. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say - "in order for the FC of the other fleet to be ready to intercept the titan in warp to make sure it falls outside of DD range they would obviously have to know where its at" wtf does that mean?. And as far as personal insults are concerned give a little get a little :- Originally by: Draygo Korvan Ahaha, you really haven't done enough fleet combat in 3-4 mins module lag haven't you. In a real fleet situation against an enemy that knows what they are doing, and aren't completely dumb, your battleship group will be unable to warp off before the DD can hit .
Zenst	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:40:00 - [403] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: LukeDS there are ways to kill them NO, THERE ISN'T. Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario: Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again. You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away. You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed. You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed. Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang. Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support. The game is BROKEN. Then how did you kill one with less toys on your side (pre HIC). Same argument could be leveled at players - have more than one and there overpowered :\|. What your syaing is more than one Titan on a grid at once is an issue, but to that extent - more than one shuttle or noob ship on grid in a fleet fight is just as overpowered Bottom line, there are indeed ways to counter all this and it dont involve the forums and is doable based upon your current assets. But one has one question - you have the numbers to have 5 fleets easily so why do they all have to jump in at once!!! Just a observation and something you might want to ponder tacticaly ingame.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:52:00 - [404] Originally by: Yuki Nagato 1. You warp in caps -> 2.they warp in battleships -> 3.you warp in battleships -> 4. they warp their support out -> 6. you get doomsdayed -> 7. they warp back in -> 8. your capitals get destroyed. You forgot a point 5. your own support warps out to stop getting DDD'D or you use your own DDD to pop there support after point 2. Is it just me or are you assuming that the titan support can warp out but the other support cannot, and the point of fact that nowhere do you use your own titan's to pop the other guys support.
ChalSto	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:09:00 - [405] CCP wount remove the DoomsDay Weapon, becouse it works as intended The is no rule in this game, not to have more carriers, more motherships and more Titans as the opponent. Oh, and GoonFleet titans working on the same game-mechanics as BoB Titans. Lets go to the extreme and compleatly remove Titans from the game...... ......well, it wouldnt change the outcome of the great war, becouse the better entity would simply adapt and the other still whining on the forums... Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
Alyx Alyn	Posted - 2008.04.07 02:05:00 - [406] Originally by: ChalSto CCP wount remove the DoomsDay Weapon, becouse it works as intended The is no rule in this game, not to have more carriers, more motherships and more Titans as the opponent. Oh, and GoonFleet titans working on the same game-mechanics as BoB Titans. Lets go to the extreme and compleatly remove Titans from the game...... ......well, it wouldnt change the outcome of the great war, becouse the better entity would simply adapt and the other still whining on the forums... I think you clicked on the wrong forum.
Chruker Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:55:00 - [407] Originally by: Traeon I suggested that the space where a doomsday is used becomes "drained" and subsequent dd's do less damage the more are used in a short timeframe. The space would return to normal after a certain amount fo time, say 60 minutes. In this way a single titan can dd as good as ever, but amassing titans for dd abuse won't be possible anymore. Either this dimishing return or simply have one per grid per duration. ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Speedup IGB table rendering
Zenst	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:03:00 - [408] This whole diminishing return from DD based upon multiple ongrid is all very well but do CCP also limit damage to ALL ships on grid in the same manner as for all effect its a case of reducing damage a certain ship type can do and not others which by definition of the role of a Titan and its vulnerabilities and reduced capacity as it is; Well, it only leads to overnerfing. I see no reason at all to nerf a ship based upon peoples FC's inability to even bother to use the right tools for the job. Seriously though rushing in your `entire` non capital fleet and expect to take out a ship worth alot more than your entire fleet is just wrong. Bottom line there are ways to do this and they dont involve a lot of cheap T1 frigates and do involve some investment in capitals. Now if ALL ship damage for respective fleets were balanced in this way, then that would be fair and indeed utterly silly. But when you can - split your fleet to not all jump in at once. Have access to your own Titans and large capital fleet (we are talking lots and lots of large alliances compared to one in this case now aint we). Work on just the same laws of gameplay as everybody else and able to bring more to the plate. When you take all things into aco**** this whole argument gets down to trying to win a rock-paper-sciscors game with the competition going paper all the time and you going rock and demanding that the paper be nerfed. There are also many other ways to beat people out of a hole, brute force is one of them, but there are others. But given that there are more people who fly T1 frigates ingame than Titans I can see how this got to so many lengthy pages of for all effect "Nerf X coz we blindly follow a bad FC". Like maths - you change all the dynamic variables and formula before you can even think about changing a constant. Basicly you adapt or just get another FC. That said if you wish to hire me to give you a plan to beat this stalemate you appear to of reched then evemail me and I'll happily create a gameplan for you to get you over this large step you seem to be constantly tripping over. But given we aint talking about a sytem with just one point of entry and a syetm were there is more than 1 single moon, I realy dont see how you keep getting stuck
Bosjathfort	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:31:00 - [409] Edited by: Bosjathfort on 07/04/2008 12:33:28 What about reduce the DD range down to 150km and make the DD blast into a directional weapon, e.g. the titan pilot has to lock an enemy target and fire the DD to that target, the DD effect will have a 30~50km radius as the locked enemy target being the central point? Perhaps also increase the fuel cost per DD and increase the DD loading time, since 15 sec is way too short in a laggy fleet combat environment? PS: give a limitation so that DD can only be fired every 30 mins per system (>'-')> <('-'<) ^('-')^ v('-')v <('-'<) ^('-')^ (>'-')> t(^-^)>
Mendolorian Girl	Posted - 2008.04.07 13:44:00 - [410] Edited by: Mendolorian Girl on 07/04/2008 13:45:10 I seem to recall hearing in a recent(ish) devblog that they're looking into another T2 Battleship using the Tier 3 hulls. They said that it would be an FC's ship, but there's only speculation on how that would be accomplished. Obviously it'd have an insane tank, but you don't pay 600m+ for a good tank. So here's my suggestion (and how it works in with the Titan), add a new class of offensive warfare links that "passively" improve DPS, so things like tracking/explosion radius, rate of fire, range/missile speed would be improved. Make it so that the T2 FC Battleship can use these modules, but doesn't get any bonuses, and the Titan can use them and gets Command Ship style bonuses. Both ships would improve the potency of any fleet (the Titan significantly more so), but would ofc be counterable with better/moar ships. Not sure where I stand on more tank for supercaps tbh. If you're wanting Titan's to be properly frontlined (ala carriers/mom's) then yes, you need a better tank, but it all depends on the role it's filling. Mothership's... nah, they don't need a better tank, if they want they can triage when they get caught alone, and if they're in a fleet they're largely invulnerable anyway (not completely ofc).

isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:01:00 - [411] I like the idea of making it directional, not omni. Give it an explosion radius that's big enough to take out a swath of enemy ships, but not the wtfpwn factor of omni out to 250k. They're still incredibly powerful and useful (jumpbridge), they just won't be able to do what they do now - which is, in combination with a cynojammer, make a system completely unconquerable.
clay trax State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 22:19:00 - [412] How about making DD stack damage output on titans only? (DD count in system during 60minutes cooldown) 1 Titan DD's ~ 70k x5 damage to other titans and 70k to caps & ships in generel. 2nd Titan DD's ~ 70k x10 to other Titans and 70k to caps & ships in generel. 3rd Titan DD's ~ 70k x20 to other titans and 70k to caps & ships in generel. etc. you get it right.. Now it would be very risky to make more DD's in same system within 60minutes of the last one. Cant really say how i could explain this in a realistic way...however this would prevent doing the now BOB multi DD trick(soon others will follow).
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2008.04.07 22:37:00 - [413] Originally by: Zenst [ Then how did you kill one with less toys on your side (pre HIC). Pilot error. Quote: [ 2006.08.25 22:30:46 ] fire 59 > mate, im 230 and 6 ft 3, half caste and train every day
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:31:00 - [414] Jesus I can't believe this whine fest is still going on. The wambulance dispatchers must be out to lunch. If your enemy can field 8 titans and you can't field at least 3 or 4 of your own, with a dozen motherships and 30+ carriers, YOU LOOSE, come back when you are a worthy challenge. Whining about it is like complaining that you lost to 10 bs with your 25 frigs. OMG! BS have too many hp to kill quickly with frigs, and their drones tear us up! No fair!
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.09 20:52:00 - [415] Originally by: Gaogan Jesus I can't believe this whine fest is still going on. The wambulance dispatchers must be out to lunch. If your enemy can field 8 titans and you can't field at least 3 or 4 of your own, with a dozen motherships and 30+ carriers, YOU LOOSE, come back when you are a worthy challenge. Whining about it is like complaining that you lost to 10 bs with your 25 frigs. OMG! BS have too many hp to kill quickly with frigs, and their drones tear us up! No fair! There are tactics you can form using interceptors to kite drones, out transverse BS guns and stay alive verses a battleship group. This means that the battleship group must bring Cruiser or Battlecruiser-based anti-support to counter them. Against a Titan group there is no counter. One doomsday is enough to take out a BS not specifically tanked for the doomsday. Two is enough to destroy any BS that isn't rigged and specifically tanked. Three cannot be tanked using a battleship unless you entirely neuter its offensive capabilities, and then your enemy can just pick you off using conventional ships. Anything lower than a BS is obliterated by the first DD, meaning no antisupport. If you want to save control towers, siege control towers, jump through a gate or any of the things generally associated with warfare, you need to be on a predictable grid which can be camped by Titans. "Strike other locations!", you say? Thankfully, reinforced timers DICTATE ENGAGEMENT TIMES to the second. Let me give you a rundown of what happens during a POS siege: 1. You suicide about a dozen or so remote repping BS (on a good day) to take out the jammer. Sometimes your enemy know you're coming and your BS fleet gets wiped out by a combination of fleet-fit BS, carriers and/or Titans. 2. You siege the tower with caps. It reinforces for 1d 17h. 3. You do the same in another system. They set the timer for 2d 2h. 4. For either situation, you have two choices: come back later, or stay in system. 4a. You come back around 1d 15h later. The cyno jammer has been repped, and your enemy has four Titans camping the gate with another four protecting the tower you wanted to hit. 4b. You stay in system and your enemy does the same with the eight Titans meaning your support fleet is completely useless. You cannot warp them onto the grid to kill the tower or take potshots at the shield repping carriers because you will get triple doomsdayed. They rep the tower and you failed in destroying it. Now you have two choices at this point. Either bring your own number of Titans (and nullify their support fleet) or you don't have even a chance of taking out the tower. The problem is that if you don't have the same level of deterrence, you cannot do anything. If you CAN field that many Titans, it becomes a capital-only affair, with subcapital pilots wondering why they even play the 0.0 warfare game when their only purpose is dying to Titans and POS gunners while shooting cyno jammers. The point is that all of this is BROKEN. POS warfare by itself wasn't that great but combined with capital ships that become 250km radius killzones for anything less than a capital ship and you turn the heaping pile of crap that is POS warfare into a fresh new hell of pilot burnout and failure.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:07:00 - [416] Originally by: Gaogan Jesus I can't believe this whine fest is still going on. The wambulance dispatchers must be out to lunch. If your enemy can field 8 titans and you can't field at least 3 or 4 of your own, with a dozen motherships and 30+ carriers, YOU LOOSE, come back when you are a worthy challenge. Whining about it is like complaining that you lost to 10 bs with your 25 frigs. OMG! BS have too many hp to kill quickly with frigs, and their drones tear us up! No fair! CAOD is another forum. If you don't want to contribute to this discussion, don't post. Also, well thought out post above me. Nice work hydrosan.
Saori Rei Gallente Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.04.10 11:05:00 - [417] I've always hated titans and their DD, and to a lesser extent capital ships as well. When Titans came in game as an antiblob device I fell off my seat laughing as I expected them to either kill fighting all together OR promote even larger blobs. Then its comes down to 'titan online.' When one is made more will be made, multiple titans in an area I'd consider game breaking. But this has been discussed to death and I will not bother, what I will say is this: If titans are going to be altered in anyway, do it now while we don't have that many people who can fly them. Wait until there is a problem and there will be a good number more of people flying them meaning a LOT more people will get angry with the changes. Pre-emptive!
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.11 22:29:00 - [418] If you think eight Titans is broken now, just wait until alliances start getting ten or twelve of them: six on defense, six on offense. It probably wont be long until Band of Brothers or Morsus Mihi gain those kinds of numbers, and it wont be long before other alliances gain five or six of their own. CCP, if you care about 0.0 warfare you will abandon this "blob killer" idea and look at the reasons of why blob warfare exists in the first place. Titans are taking what little enjoyment there was to be had out of territory warfare.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 22:32:00 - [419] Originally by: HydroSan If you think eight Titans is broken now, just wait until alliances start getting ten or twelve of them: six on defense, six on offense. It probably wont be long until Band of Brothers or Morsus Mihi gain those kinds of numbers, and it wont be long before other alliances gain five or six of their own. CCP, if you care about 0.0 warfare you will abandon this "blob killer" idea and look at the reasons of why blob warfare exists in the first place. Titans are taking what little enjoyment there was to be had out of territory warfare. I thought you were the big space holders on the block now?..so why aint you building em?.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.12 02:18:00 - [420] Originally by: stinger7 I thought you were the big space holders on the block now?..so why aint you building em?. What does the number of Titans my alliance owns have to do with what I said?

stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.12 03:02:00 - [421] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: stinger7 I thought you were the big space holders on the block now?..so why aint you building em?. What does the number of Titans my alliance owns have to do with what I said? If you were willing to use them along with a large capital and conventional fleet to combat other ppls titans and cap and con fleets instead of wanting to turn eve into a zerg to win space ship game you would understand.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.12 04:27:00 - [422] titans are fine, if you cant put them on your overview, cant be aligned during a fight, cant know your enemy and think for 2 seconds that they might bring a titan, means you should get dd'd, if you cant accept the fact that someone spent alot of time building 7 titans, and can DD your behind every hour 7 times, then you cant be bothered, if you cant or dont want to bring down cyno jammers in systems that jump titans into and cant really be bothered with taking them out, quit crying, multiple pages of tears that you got DD'd isnt gonna change the fact they are great alliance tools, goals, and fun to try and deal with, QUIT CRYING, KILL ONE (WHICH I HAVENT BUT I TRIED ) or just GB2WoW...
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:22:00 - [423] Originally by: Matrixcvd titans are fine, if you cant put them on your overview, cant be aligned during a fight, cant know your enemy and think for 2 seconds that they might bring a titan, means you should get dd'd, if you cant accept the fact that someone spent alot of time building 7 titans, and can DD your behind every hour 7 times, then you cant be bothered, if you cant or dont want to bring down cyno jammers in systems that jump titans into and cant really be bothered with taking them out, quit crying, multiple pages of tears that you got DD'd isnt gonna change the fact they are great alliance tools, goals, and fun to try and deal with, QUIT CRYING, KILL ONE (WHICH I HAVENT BUT I TRIED ) or just GB2WoW... Thanks for this. Priceless.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.12 16:53:00 - [424] Originally by: Matrixcvd titans are fine, if you cant put them on your overview, cant be aligned during a fight, cant know your enemy and think for 2 seconds that they might bring a titan, means you should get dd'd, if you cant accept the fact that someone spent alot of time building 7 titans, and can DD your behind every hour 7 times, then you cant be bothered, if you cant or dont want to bring down cyno jammers in systems that jump titans into and cant really be bothered with taking them out, quit crying, multiple pages of tears that you got DD'd isnt gonna change the fact they are great alliance tools, goals, and fun to try and deal with, QUIT CRYING, KILL ONE (WHICH I HAVENT BUT I TRIED ) or just GB2WoW... Nice ragepost, I'll ignore it. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Kaleidon Reth	Posted - 2008.04.12 19:26:00 - [425] Originally by: HydroSan If you think eight Titans is broken now, just wait until alliances start getting ten or twelve of them: six on defense, six on offense. It probably wont be long until Band of Brothers or Morsus Mihi gain those kinds of numbers, and it wont be long before other alliances gain five or six of their own. CCP, if you care about 0.0 warfare you will abandon this "blob killer" idea and look at the reasons of why blob warfare exists in the first place. Titans are taking what little enjoyment there was to be had out of territory warfare. Remove or significantly reduce the power of the DD, then fix bombers to be able to deliver cheaper bombs at a greater rate (aka be able to launch more than two simultaneously without them blowing each other up). You still got your anti-blob capabilities, only now in the hands of the smaller alliances and corporations that actually need them instead of in the hands of the people that are causing the blob problem in the first place. For example you could greatly increase the resists on bombs versus all other dmg types than their own, in such a way that you could deliver one bomb of each dmg type to an area at oncewithout them blowing each other up. Or go the other way and make them resistant only to their own dmg type so that you could deliver X amount of bombs of the same type to the same area at once, forcing you to choose what dmg type you wanted. The important thing is that X needs to be larger than 2.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.12 19:52:00 - [426] Not sure if it have been said, but i believe so. Nerf the Titans any more will basicly make the Titans useless for it's price.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.13 01:50:00 - [427] Someone please change title of op to something more reasonable. "titan discussion" is a lot better. Don't make this a flame fest, we all know titan's and cyno jammers need tweaking - and not to anyone's benefit in particular, but for the good of the game as a whole. There have been some really really good suggestions so far by both sides, and I'd like to keep that up. I'm sure ccp is reading this thread, try not to **** it up folks. /humble request
1337 Sp34k	Posted - 2008.04.13 19:05:00 - [428] 50 Dreads >>>> 8 Titans :)
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:37:00 - [429] Originally by: 1337 Sp34k 50 Dreads >>>> 8 Titans :) This is true, but those 50 dread will have an awful hard tackling those 8 titans with constant DD's killing support fleets.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:50:00 - [430] Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: 1337 Sp34k 50 Dreads >>>> 8 Titans :) This is true, but those 50 dread will have an awful hard tackling those 8 titans with constant DD's killing support fleets. So you warp conventional fleets in range of DDD's?. Are you a goon?. Not a good idea bud unless its one of your tacklers to hold em down for your 50 dreads to pop.

NoMercy uk Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 05:14:00 - [431] a alternative to the multiple titan DDD is to maintain the currect DDD and reactivation delay of 60 min but to add a new varible, that after a DD has been activated in any given system A 30 min system delay will be in place to prevent the titan's blobs being overpowered, this will restore some sort of normal fleet/support game play. If nothing is done I believe the eve we have known in the not to distant past will remain history and the game will certainly come to a premature ends :-(((
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.14 05:22:00 - [432] Edited by: Angelonico on 14/04/2008 05:23:41 Originally by: stinger7 Edited by: stinger7 on 14/04/2008 00:21:20So you warp conventional fleets in range of DDD's?. Are you a goon?. Not a good idea bud unless its one of your tacklers to hold em down for your 50 dreads to pop. HEREs a joke: Whats the difference between a heavy or normal interdictor thats been popped by 8 DDD or a heavy/normal interdictor thats been popped by support or ftr drones. Nothing but im sure ppl who want to turn eve into a zerg to win game will use it as a drama bomb hoping to remove DDD or nerf titans. Please read a few of my posts on this matter before tossing insults. No i'm not a goon, no I don't want titans nerfed to hell - and no I don't want zerg online. I do however want titans and cyno jammers tweaked a tweaked along with sovereignty in general. I miss station ping pong personally. That said, I'd like reasonable discussion, suggestions, rational debate etc. Not a smack war - for the good of the game. If you'd take a few minutes of your time and go through the first ten or so pages, there have been some pretty damn good suggestions, and I'm sure CCP is reading the thread. Cheers.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.04.14 20:15:00 - [433] How about a sort of doomsday being it's own weakness? In the event multiple doomsdays are fired close together. Space itself becomes unstable that a gravity well starts to form that super capitals being the most massive are drawn the most and then are incapable of getting away from the gravity well. Lets call them mini-black holes that only affect the super massive heavy like titans and moms. The effect is that the titans/moms are incapable of warping away nor moving. Invincible perfect webber and warp disruptor. Logging off obviously wont allow your titan to disappear or warp off. The mini-black hole then also dissapates. Hawking radiation for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation It gives off thermal dmg. So lets say 3 titans let off 3 doomsdays. The mini-black hole is formed and the titans get stuck. They perhaps then have to stick there for 3 hours. Whoever they just attacked with those doomsdays now know they are stuck and pass word around to build a fleet to attack them. Titans being the trophy :) They wouldn't risk shooting more off because they would increase the amount of time they are stuck there. Perhaps make it so you can only fire 2 in a grid per half hour or something. After all one titan can only fire 1 off per hour? That way the titan itself can fire its doomsday off... but they wont dare blob titan doomsdays.
Constantinee Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.14 20:43:00 - [434] How a bout a "Doomsday Jammer" Simply put, Like cyno jammers you can jam a titans ability to use its doomsday in a system that the device can be anchored. Simply anchor a device outside a pos bubble (alliance MUST have sov 3 of at least 5 systems within the region/constellation to do this) and the Constellation , yes Not system but constellation is doomsday jammed. This means that anysystem within a certain constellation lets say for example...J8- a titan can be cynoed in but cannot activate its doomsday device with a dd jammer online. I cant honestly ay that i have not fully done my research on this idea but it just came to me. Ill look into this more and depending on forum response ill create a proper write up for it. Const. --------------------
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.15 02:21:00 - [435] Originally by: Constantinee How a bout a "Doomsday Jammer" Simply put, Like cyno jammers you can jam a titans ability to use its doomsday in a system that the device can be anchored. Simply anchor a device outside a pos bubble (alliance MUST have sov 3 of at least 5 systems within the region/constellation to do this) and the Constellation , yes Not system but constellation is doomsday jammed. This means that anysystem within a certain constellation lets say for example...J8- a titan can be cynoed in but cannot activate its doomsday device with a dd jammer online. I cant honestly ay that i have not fully done my research on this idea but it just came to me. Ill look into this more and depending on forum response ill create a proper write up for it. Const. F'ing brilliant. I like this one too.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.15 03:35:00 - [436] Originally by: Constantinee How a bout a "Doomsday Jammer" Simply put, Like cyno jammers you can jam a titans ability to use its doomsday in a system that the device can be anchored. Simply anchor a device outside a pos bubble (alliance MUST have sov 3 of at least 5 systems within the region/constellation to do this) and the Constellation , yes Not system but constellation is doomsday jammed. This means that anysystem within a certain constellation lets say for example...J8- a titan can be cynoed in but cannot activate its doomsday device with a dd jammer online. I cant honestly ay that i have not fully done my research on this idea but it just came to me. Ill look into this more and depending on forum response ill create a proper write up for it. Const. Wouldnt work. Why would an alliance on defense want to put up one of these. You cant get titans into a cynojammed system in the first place without taking out the cynojammer. on top of that once the cynojammer is down and enemy caps are in, they could simply incapacitate this module. But it doesnt do anything to solve the problem of titans being used defensively to stop BS gangs from taking out a cynojammer in the first place. Its not a terrible idea, it will give alliances that do not have titans some line of defense. But I really dont see how that would fix one of the main problems with the DD brought up in this thread. --
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.15 04:15:00 - [437] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Constantinee How a bout a "Doomsday Jammer" Simply put, Like cyno jammers you can jam a titans ability to use its doomsday in a system that the device can be anchored. Simply anchor a device outside a pos bubble (alliance MUST have sov 3 of at least 5 systems within the region/constellation to do this) and the Constellation , yes Not system but constellation is doomsday jammed. This means that anysystem within a certain constellation lets say for example...J8- a titan can be cynoed in but cannot activate its doomsday device with a dd jammer online. I cant honestly ay that i have not fully done my research on this idea but it just came to me. Ill look into this more and depending on forum response ill create a proper write up for it. Const. Wouldnt work. Why would an alliance on defense want to put up one of these. You cant get titans into a cynojammed system in the first place without taking out the cynojammer. on top of that once the cynojammer is down and enemy caps are in, they could simply incapacitate this module. But it doesnt do anything to solve the problem of titans being used defensively to stop BS gangs from taking out a cynojammer in the first place. Its not a terrible idea, it will give alliances that do not have titans some line of defense. But I really dont see how that would fix one of the main problems with the DD brought up in this thread. Well it would be an... offensive sort of cyno jammer. It'd require the attacking force have a pos in system - and would be destructable. That said, you're probably right. What's the best viable tweak then, giving DDD's a smaller radius? Stacking damage?
Constantinee Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.15 04:47:00 - [438] Edited by: Constantinee on 15/04/2008 04:51:12 Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Constantinee How a bout a "Doomsday Jammer" Simply put, Like cyno jammers you can jam a titans ability to use its doomsday in a system that the device can be anchored. Simply anchor a device outside a pos bubble (alliance MUST have sov 3 of at least 5 systems within the region/constellation to do this) and the Constellation , yes Not system but constellation is doomsday jammed. This means that anysystem within a certain constellation lets say for example...J8- a titan can be cynoed in but cannot activate its doomsday device with a dd jammer online. I cant honestly ay that i have not fully done my research on this idea but it just came to me. Ill look into this more and depending on forum response ill create a proper write up for it. Const. Wouldnt work. Why would an alliance on defense want to put up one of these. You cant get titans into a cynojammed system in the first place without taking out the cynojammer. on top of that once the cynojammer is down and enemy caps are in, they could simply incapacitate this module. But it doesnt do anything to solve the problem of titans being used defensively to stop BS gangs from taking out a cynojammer in the first place. Its not a terrible idea, it will give alliances that do not have titans some line of defense. But I really dont see how that would fix one of the main problems with the DD brought up in this thread. Well i dont mean it in a way of a cyno jammer. Because face it. most cap ship combat happens outside a cyno jammed system. A doomsday jammer would be placed in one system in one constellation. This does not stop a capital from jumping into anysystem in a constellation. It only stops the titan from activating its doomsday device in that constellation. All systems in the constellation are not cyno jammed. just doomsday jammed. A cyno jammer only stops a cyno from being launched in a system. The doomsday jammer will infact allow caps to enter a system that is NOT CYNO JAMMED. Now of course there iwll be alot of sovergntiy mumbo jumo involved and i will put further thought into that in the morning. I think that this idea is a strong one and id like to hear others thoughts on this as well. and an alliance on defense would want to put one of these up because of several reasons. One being the fact that if a hostile gang jumps in a doomsday will onbly take out whats there. If a doomsday cannot be launched then the titan will refit mods for gantg bonuses (or should). Forcing the enemy to fight in your main systems where you have the upper hand is a greater tool. The lag alone will fatigue your enemys making them want to log after a long fight (if theyr tired) with a dd going off they simply get new trips and try and get you to come out of the titan equipped system. Most people with titans on their side will nto do this. Thus making a 2 hour long sit out of 2 big gangs right next door, Force the fight to happen. Youll have more fun and boost morale in your alliance after youve won a big ass fleet battle. const --------------------
Paul LikesMen	Posted - 2008.04.15 10:20:00 - [439] The idea of making them mobile stations is good, but along with that couldn't you also have a diffrent set up where you can turn them into gient sniper batterys? If you were to have support from like 5000km away where fleets wouldn't be able to tell where the damage is coming from and only being able to maybe destroy a ship every 2-5 mins for a cool down time (Like doomsday). That way you'd be able to provide desent support with out being god like And with the station part make it so you cant have any sniper fit's. Only problem with that is that you could have 2 titans standing by one of them being a station and one of them being a sniper... but who'd waste a good fleet for protecting a sniper?
San Rintu Asshats and Alcoholics Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 11:21:00 - [440] I'm still for the doomsday to be a focused weapon. Rather than doing a fixed damage to a great number of smaller ships, capitals tend to shrug off a doomsday without a great issue. If, and this is merely something that has been mentioned before, the doomsday was able to focus on a single ship that was tactically beneficial to the opposing fleet and simply 'death-star' it, it would be interesting to see how fleet tactics changed. Take for example a fight in which several carriers are cynoed in to a small engagement and the fight escalates. One side cyno's in a greater cap fleet and gains the edge. The dreads on one side are causing the other to fail miserably as they cannot break the rep cycles of all the carriers to them. So the titan is deployed to help the situation. It targets one of the higher dps dreads/triaged carriers/moms and simply disintegrates it, no questions asked. Titans would also be far more sparingly utilised if another could be dropped upon their's while it is in cooldown and could hence be vulnerable to a direct strike from another DDD.

Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.15 11:54:00 - [441] how about leaving the titan alone? Its fine, there is nothing wrong with it, DD is fine, plenty of time to warp out. if you get DD'd who cares? notice the antipathy? why? because if the game didnt lag that much nobody would complain but people get DD'd not even seeing the titan, or cant align or whatever, but that shouldnt change the fact the overall, or the get DD'd cause they are dumb. But whats the difference? Attacking a POS with 20 carriers all with their drones out just to lag everyone out, is that no different? People who bring the blob the most get mad when it comes back to bite them, or its just titan envy...
OneSock Crown Industries space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.04.15 13:38:00 - [442] Time to introduce the DeathStar ! The DeathStar's Super Weapon can only target Moms and Titans. It can tank DD and regular weapons with easy but is weak to rifters with photon torpedos.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:43:00 - [443] DD's in their current form need to go. The 250k smartbomb was neat when an alliance might have one or two for defense of a quick offensive surprise, but over the course of the next year, it's just going to get ridiculous. I'd much rather see titans able to do a wide variety of specialized tasks. Let me tank a ****load of DPS and mount 6-8 XL guns that can wipe out a BS in one shot or something. Give me a Death Ray that can maybe one shot a dread with a 30 min RoF. Stuff like that. Titans as they exist are very "meh" in terms of what you can actually DO with them. 90% of your time is spent off line or sitting at a POS so people can see you online as you radiate the "I'm gonna get 'cha!" vibe. 9.5% of your time is spent using the portal to bridge freighters and stuff around. The remaining .5% is all about, "Enter warp, come out of warp, hit DD, pray you have enough Polys / whatever on to get back into warp, return to POS / safe spot, cloak, wait for aggro timer to go away." Or you can warp onto a grid with 30+ carriers remote reping you and just set off a DD every hour. Wow. That's so much fun. \o/ My Raggy is shield tanked. Know what that means? I have crap CPU for anything once I mount the tank and the smarties. No guns, no nothing. But, hey, I can launch 5 heavy drones!! I don't blame any alliance for using them to their maximum effect in their current form, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be improved / changed. Remove the DD. Boost them in other areas properly. Give us a "Titan", not a portable stargate with a large smartbomb.
XXJackXX Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.16 07:53:00 - [444] hmm i havent read all the posts but my idea is dont nerf titan or DD.yes when u fire multiple DD only cap ship class can tank.so lets stop them to fire together.hmm question is how.and answer is when you fire a DD in a system that system will have like 15mins DD delay i mean any other titans wont be able to DD in 15 or 20mins.
Mnement'h Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.16 09:25:00 - [445] Originally by: XXJackXX hmm i havent read all the posts but my idea is dont nerf titan or DD.yes when u fire multiple DD only cap ship class can tank.so lets stop them to fire together.hmm question is how.and answer is when you fire a DD in a system that system will have like 15mins DD delay i mean any other titans wont be able to DD in 15 or 20mins. EDIT: I so totally failed to read your post before posting mine :P Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ...
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.16 12:46:00 - [446] Originally by: OneSock Time to introduce the DeathStar ! The DeathStar's Super Weapon can only target Moms and Titans. It can tank DD and regular weapons with easy but is weak to rifters with photon torpedos. omg so lol that might work.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.16 12:51:00 - [447] Same way Mom is a super carrier. Titan should be a super dread. Just give 8 high slots 7 weapons 1 siege module, enough cap to run 2 Capital repair forever. Add a drone bay and fighter capability of a normal carrier:). done you have a terrifying ship, but FUN for both sides. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Matthias Reid	Posted - 2008.04.16 14:05:00 - [448] havnt had time to read through this entire thread, but how about setting it up so you cant fire a DD in a system that has a cyno jammer online, that way the defending alliance cant sit there in their titans and spam DD's to get rid of the BS. I think it would be a fair compromise, as in my experience this has been the only scenario where having multiple DD's really comes in handy.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 18:04:00 - [449] Originally by: Matthias Reid havnt had time to read through this entire thread, but how about setting it up so you cant fire a DD in a system that has a cyno jammer online, that way the defending alliance cant sit there in their titans and spam DD's to get rid of the BS. I think it would be a fair compromise, as in my experience this has been the only scenario where having multiple DD's really comes in handy. LOL you better be aligned and ready to warp out as soon as that jammer goes pop buddy cos i bet the titans dudes will be spamming the DDD button.
mamolian Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.17 00:00:00 - [450] Don't fancy being a dev trying to solve this problem tbh But yeah.. to add my voice to the wail Nerf the titans!

Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:03:00 - [451] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Same way Mom is a super carrier. Titan should be a super dread. Just give 8 high slots 7 weapons 1 siege module, enough cap to run 2 Capital repair forever. Add a drone bay and fighter capability of a normal carrier:). done you have a terrifying ship, but FUN for both sides. Thats quite possibly the dumbest idea so far. Yes lets make the titan worth only 2 dreads and have to enter siege mode. So it can die to 10 dreads with no way to save it.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.17 09:44:00 - [452] Reducing the DDD to 150-200km will stop ppl effectively parking them on top of cyno jammers, while still giving them the ability to be a effective anti zerging ship.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:12:00 - [453] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon Same way Mom is a super carrier. Titan should be a super dread. Just give 8 high slots 7 weapons 1 siege module, enough cap to run 2 Capital repair forever. Add a drone bay and fighter capability of a normal carrier:). done you have a terrifying ship, but FUN for both sides. Thats quite possibly the dumbest idea so far. Yes lets make the titan worth only 2 dreads and have to enter siege mode. So it can die to 10 dreads with no way to save it. It would be as fair as the mothership is today. ALSO its 2 dreads and 1 carrier!!! And YES that is the level of power we need. We NEED titans to die much more frequently because by end of year we wil have like 100 titans in game. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:29:00 - [454] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon Same way Mom is a super carrier. Titan should be a super dread. Just give 8 high slots 7 weapons 1 siege module, enough cap to run 2 Capital repair forever. Add a drone bay and fighter capability of a normal carrier:). done you have a terrifying ship, but FUN for both sides. Thats quite possibly the dumbest idea so far. Yes lets make the titan worth only 2 dreads and have to enter siege mode. So it can die to 10 dreads with no way to save it. It would be as fair as the mothership is today. ALSO its 2 dreads and 1 carrier!!! And YES that is the level of power we need. We NEED titans to die much more frequently because by end of year we wil have like 100 titans in game. No, motherships are immune to EW and dont have to go into siege to do dps. No one will siege a titan, EVER. Because you can kill it so easilly with just 10 dreads. For 60bil cost, no one will build a titan if its just worth 2 dreads and a carrier.
Mo Cuishla	Posted - 2008.04.17 13:44:00 - [455] Edited by: Mo Cuishla on 17/04/2008 13:45:42 Titan solution. If you are pilot a Titan, you should immediately be banned from EVE and be bought an account for WoW, because you suck more than a large sucking machine that was designed to replace an already incredibly effective sucking machine [and winner of the 2007 Society of Sucking Machines (Sucking Machine Award) for greatest increase in suction ]. You suck Titan boy! Mo P.S. Pic. of new Gallente Titan http://www.landliving.com/image/dyson_dc11.jpg
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:44:00 - [456] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon Same way Mom is a super carrier. Titan should be a super dread. Just give 8 high slots 7 weapons 1 siege module, enough cap to run 2 Capital repair forever. Add a drone bay and fighter capability of a normal carrier:). done you have a terrifying ship, but FUN for both sides. Thats quite possibly the dumbest idea so far. Yes lets make the titan worth only 2 dreads and have to enter siege mode. So it can die to 10 dreads with no way to save it. It would be as fair as the mothership is today. ALSO its 2 dreads and 1 carrier!!! And YES that is the level of power we need. We NEED titans to die much more frequently because by end of year we wil have like 100 titans in game. No, motherships are immune to EW and dont have to go into siege to do dps. No one will siege a titan, EVER. Because you can kill it so easilly with just 10 dreads. For 60bil cost, no one will build a titan if its just worth 2 dreads and a carrier. And WHY shoudl anythign be able to survive against 10 Dreads in close range configuration for long? BTW you didnt even cared to do the math. A titan with typical price fitting deadspace stff and Siege module would EASILY tank 10 dreads!! And no i do not think ANYTHIGN shoudl be able to withstand 20 dreads firing on you.
Xeliya Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.18 04:10:00 - [457] Edited by: Xeliya on 18/04/2008 04:12:10 My way of fixing a Titan that is IMO fair both ways. Allow 8 guns to be fit. 100% Damage per Titan Level. 25% Tracking/Velocity and Explosion Radius per Titan Level. 1 Drone per Titan Level. Fighters Can be used. 10000% Cap usage on web/disruptor. (So it can't tackle) Limit the Bridge range to 5 light years. This would allow a Titan to have the fire power of 2 dreads in siege but be able to insta pop Battleships. Also allow it to have 10 fighters at max level would make it a great offencive weapon that is fun, tide turning but not stupidly over powered.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.18 09:52:00 - [458] Originally by: Kagura Nikon And WHY shoudl anythign be able to survive against 10 Dreads in close range configuration for long? BTW you didnt even cared to do the math. A titan with typical price fitting deadspace stff and Siege module would EASILY tank 10 dreads!! Please post your math that allows you to survive 10 gank fitted dreads in a theoretical siege capable titan. Lets say... 40b in mods as a price cap, so no silly 5 chelm cap rechargers costing more than the titan itself. Oh and lots of things can survive 10 sieged dreads, a carrier can survive 10 sieged dreads, you just need 20 carriers repping it. Cant do that with a sieged titan now can you? Quote: And no i do not think ANYTHIGN shoudl be able to withstand 20 dreads firing on you. A carrier can, a mothership can, and if a titan cannot its going to be worthless.
Gorith	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:52:00 - [459] Hmm its hard to figure out ways to fix it withoug breaking it and theres no real way to make ti to where everyone will be happy but i think one of the following would be good 1. A limit per system on titan (2) 2. systemwide cooldown on the DD (meaning if 1 titan fires a doomsday no other titan can fire one for 1 hour) 3. create a module that jamms all DD in a system and makes the user immobile while its running (but doesnt showup on the overview make them probe it out) 4. make DD reset ONLY after downtime
Jarne Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:20:00 - [460] I see it this way: A doomsday device is a threat all the time, even when it is not activated it has an effect on the opponent's actions. It is thus "active" in a certain way even when not actually fired. If the "real" activation of a doomsday device costs money, so should the permanent threat of a doomsday. Introduce a maintenance cost to ships and make it very expensive for Titans, problem solved :).

Uzuki Shootmenow	Posted - 2008.04.18 15:29:00 - [461] I'm not a fan of a DD. I've died to a couple myself. The sad part about this is, if Goons had 8 titans (and knew how to use them actually) and BoB had only 1, this thread wouldnt even start. thank you.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.18 15:37:00 - [462] Originally by: Uzuki Shootmenow I'm not a fan of a DD. I've died to a couple myself. The sad part about this is, if Goons had 8 titans (and knew how to use them actually) and BoB had only 1, this thread wouldnt even start. thank you. This is extremely relevant to the topic at hand, which is discussing the broken mechanics of Titans. Either present facts to support your claim of either "it's fine" or "it's overpowered" or go back to CAOD. Thanks.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.18 16:44:00 - [463] Edited by: stinger7 on 18/04/2008 16:49:34 Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Uzuki Shootmenow I'm not a fan of a DD. I've died to a couple myself. The sad part about this is, if Goons had 8 titans (and knew how to use them actually) and BoB had only 1, this thread wouldnt even start. thank you. This is extremely relevant to the topic at hand, which is discussing the broken mechanics of Titans. Either present facts to support your claim of either "it's fine" or "it's overpowered" or go back to CAOD. Thanks. They are fine in fact i remember that it was you goons who had them "fixed" the last time you were losing ships to them. So what now you cannot zerg anymore space from BOB they are suddenly broken again?.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.18 17:12:00 - [464] Originally by: stinger7 They are fine in fact i remember that it was you goons who had them "fixed" the last time you were losing ships to them. So what now you cannot zerg anymore space from BOB they are suddenly broken again?. Titans were "fixed" by making them unable to just jump around, doomsday and jump out when it got hairy. It was broken because you'd have a single Titan and a Mothership camping a station and there was nothing you could do about it. CCP fixed it by making them more vulnerable to dictors and giving some real drawbacks to the doomsday weapon. At the scale of one or two Titans this is fine. It means you have to plan the use of your Titans and have some kind of solid strategy for using it and a backup/support fleet there for the ride to bail it out. Shrike/SirMolle died last June because he only had a couple of carriers, a single MS and a couple of HACs with him as support verses a bunch of battleships and a large opposing capital fleet. The problem now is that to avoid those kind of circumstances and bring back Titans to the "power" they had before, alliances are spending billions, possibly trillions of ISK trying to build more and more Titans to gradually reduce and then eliminate any risk associated with using Titans as tactical nukes. I don't think CCP really wants alliances with ten or eleven Titans running around in 0.0 making it impossible for any alliance that relies on subcapitals to operate. It's not just BoB either. Every alliance is really desperate to get their hands on some fancy mining moons so they can produce themselves multiple Titans. Under current mechanics I see smaller/non-rich alliances getting utterly crushed and then the remaining alliances hording mining moons and attempting to build more Titans than the other guy. Meanwhile, the subcapital pilots who previously had a role are going to be wondering why they don't just a) sell their subcap char and buy a dread/carrier char, b) leave their 0.0 alliance because there is nothing to do in the face of eight Titans (and this is for both sides too: k:d ratio aside how would it feel to show up for an op and sit around for an hour only to discover your enemy can't/won't engage because of Titans? Or how would it feel if YOU couldn't engage because your own alliance has Titans on the field and warping in would be sudden death?). Either way it's not very balanced and it eliminates tactics in favour of building as many expensive ships as possible and then blobbing a system with them. Combined with lag and desync bugs and you're looking at a game that is appealing to capital pilots alone and nobody else. If Titans were turned into massive logistics powerhouses that didn't stack positively in terms of use then we wouldn't have Titan blobs. Mobile stations, jump bridges, higher gang bonuses, a kind of 'respawn point' for fleets would be great for any alliance who wanted to build one, as it would allow them to both assault and defend systems more effectively. For instance, if you were defending, the Titan could act as a second station in that system, meaning you're freed from any inconvenience that might have been caused by your enemy locking down the station or disabiling station services: a major strategic advantage, since you could just respawn in-system and keep fighting. Titans as they are now prevent major battle from happening because it allows three or four pilots the ability to press a button, sit back and watch the killmails roll in. Titans as mobile stations would allow major battles to happen over a long period of time. How epic would it be for major battles to go on for hours, even days because both sides had Titans and just kept going at it? It would be near-constant PvP between subcapital fleets, as opposed to the "all or nothing" effect capital PvP has on alliances.
gordon cain Minmatar x13	Posted - 2008.04.18 17:12:00 - [465] Everything can be killed. Just need a damn good plan to take them out. Gordon Cain Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.18 17:27:00 - [466] Sorry HydroSan but id rather see capital blobs in a few years be the norm in 0.0 than see crappy T1 zerg fleets crashing nodes every night from the day the DDD is nerfed. Reducing the DDD to 150-200km will make then vulnerable to snipers in BS and to capital ships of course. But for the game to allow a alliance without capital support to zerg a alliance with capital support is totally unbalancing the idea of individual and group improvement within the game itself.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.18 17:51:00 - [467] Originally by: stinger7 Sorry HydroSan but id rather see capital blobs in a few years be the norm in 0.0 than see crappy T1 zerg fleets crashing nodes every night from the day the DDD is nerfed. Reducing the DDD to 150-200km will make then vulnerable to snipers in BS and to capital ships of course. But for the game to allow a alliance without capital support to zerg a alliance with capital support is totally unbalancing the idea of individual and group improvement within the game itself. If you went ahead and looked at recent battle reports on BoBs killboard you'd see GoonSwarm has had the upper hand in battleships for a little while now. But this is you attempting to change the subject by saying I have a bias and refusing to comment on anything I've said. The point is that EVEN WITH A 150+ STRONG T2 SNIPER FLEET, they are completely destroyed by multiple Titans. You cannot rep or siege a tower that is protected by them, and moving around Titans is trivial when you take into consideration that they have jump drives and can use jump bridges. Add onto that strontium timers which can be perfectly timed for when the titans can be online and you have unsiegable towers. The fact is that DESPITE skillpoints, fittings and numbers, Titans reign supreme. You could have a massive T1 cruiser blob and they'd get wiped out by multiple Titans. You could have a massive T2 battleship sniper blob and they'd get wiped out by multiple Titans. If you say "then attack somewhere else!" then I'm going to just laugh because you've obviously never participated in 0.0 warfare: stront timers and the grids that the towers are actually on dictate when and where engagements are going to happen. You used to be able to have a fight with subcaps over who saved and who destroyed a control tower. Just look at 9-9: there was a massive subcapital fight at every tower that came out between battleship groups. And it was FUN. Both sides lost a ton of ships and even despite the lag it was great because you finally didn't have to constantly mash your scanner to see if a horde of Titans were warping in. I'm willing to bet you couldn't find a single person that didn't find those skirmishes amazingly fun on either side. Capital ships should be a major strategic asset but they should be designed in a way that makes subcapitals do the fighting.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.18 18:09:00 - [468] Edited by: stinger7 on 18/04/2008 18:10:24 Reducing the DDD to 150-200km sorts out all the problems with using conventional fleets against multiple DDD while allowing the titans to still prevent ppl zerging with T1 friggies and cruisers.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.18 21:02:00 - [469] personally, i think the best situation would be the removal of the doomsday and replacing it with something that amplifies the force of one fleet without totally obsoleting the other fleet. they nerfed the mechanics of the doomsday because people were using it as an "i-win" button, and now they found a loophole around that because, again, players want to use the doomsday as an "i-win" button. remove doomsday, replace with either another mod to aid fleet logistics or another super-weapon that either diffusely enhances the abilities of the fleet or unleashes big firepower on a limited number of enemies
Ihlarin Egar	Posted - 2008.04.18 21:31:00 - [470] Edited by: Ihlarin Egar on 18/04/2008 21:34:04 Yer, nerf. How about ~ ten high damage shots to any SINGLE target across the system or even in surrounding systems, followed by 3-7 days of repairs in a shipyard (with annoying material logistics involved) instead? Anti-fleet AoE damage of this proportion was a stupid idea from the start, even without the stackability of said damage. Why would it be fun for anyone if the smaller ships in a fleet are killed instantly, anyways?

Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.19 01:24:00 - [471] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: stinger7 They are fine in fact i remember that it was you goons who had them "fixed" the last time you were losing ships to them. So what now you cannot zerg anymore space from BOB they are suddenly broken again?. Titans were "fixed" by making them unable to just jump around, doomsday and jump out when it got hairy. It was broken because you'd have a single Titan and a Mothership camping a station and there was nothing you could do about it. CCP fixed it by making them more vulnerable to dictors and giving some real drawbacks to the doomsday weapon. At the scale of one or two Titans this is fine. It means you have to plan the use of your Titans and have some kind of solid strategy for using it and a backup/support fleet there for the ride to bail it out. Shrike/SirMolle died last June because he only had a couple of carriers, a single MS and a couple of HACs with him as support verses a bunch of battleships and a large opposing capital fleet. The problem now is that to avoid those kind of circumstances and bring back Titans to the "power" they had before, alliances are spending billions, possibly trillions of ISK trying to build more and more Titans to gradually reduce and then eliminate any risk associated with using Titans as tactical nukes. I don't think CCP really wants alliances with ten or eleven Titans running around in 0.0 making it impossible for any alliance that relies on subcapitals to operate. It's not just BoB either. Every alliance is really desperate to get their hands on some fancy mining moons so they can produce themselves multiple Titans. Under current mechanics I see smaller/non-rich alliances getting utterly crushed and then the remaining alliances hording mining moons and attempting to build more Titans than the other guy. Meanwhile, the subcapital pilots who previously had a role are going to be wondering why they don't just a) sell their subcap char and buy a dread/carrier char, b) leave their 0.0 alliance because there is nothing to do in the face of eight Titans (and this is for both sides too: k:d ratio aside how would it feel to show up for an op and sit around for an hour only to discover your enemy can't/won't engage because of Titans? Or how would it feel if YOU couldn't engage because your own alliance has Titans on the field and warping in would be sudden death?). Either way it's not very balanced and it eliminates tactics in favour of building as many expensive ships as possible and then blobbing a system with them. Combined with lag and desync bugs and you're looking at a game that is appealing to capital pilots alone and nobody else. If Titans were turned into massive logistics powerhouses that didn't stack positively in terms of use then we wouldn't have Titan blobs. Mobile stations, jump bridges, higher gang bonuses, a kind of 'respawn point' for fleets would be great for any alliance who wanted to build one, as it would allow them to both assault and defend systems more effectively. For instance, if you were defending, the Titan could act as a second station in that system, meaning you're freed from any inconvenience that might have been caused by your enemy locking down the station or disabiling station services: a major strategic advantage, since you could just respawn in-system and keep fighting. Titans as they are now prevent major battle from happening because it allows three or four pilots the ability to press a button, sit back and watch the killmails roll in. Titans as mobile stations would allow major battles to happen over a long period of time. How epic would it be for major battles to go on for hours, even days because both sides had Titans and just kept going at it? It would be near-constant PvP between subcapital fleets, as opposed to the "all or nothing" effect capital PvP has on alliances. Simple, 1 DD every 10 minutes/grid.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.19 01:46:00 - [472] Originally by: Gamesguy Simple, 1 DD every 10 minutes/grid. Oh come on. You're in a big 0.0 alliance. Have you participated in any of the ops your alliance calls? You should know by now that ten minutes can take place over the course of an hour, especially when large numbers of capitals are concerned.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels	Posted - 2008.04.19 02:23:00 - [473] The solution is even simpler than that. Don't commit all of your combat assets at once. Its really that simple. Does this mean you basically have to sacrifice a fleet to draw out the DDD's? yes. Is it going to be expensive? **** yes. But then so is a titan.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.19 02:35:00 - [474] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Simple, 1 DD every 10 minutes/grid. Oh come on. You're in a big 0.0 alliance. Have you participated in any of the ops your alliance calls? You should know by now that ten minutes can take place over the course of an hour, especially when large numbers of capitals are concerned. Eve is not balanced on lag.
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.19 05:16:00 - [475] Originally by: TypoNinja The solution is even simpler than that. Don't commit all of your combat assets at once. Its really that simple. Does this mean you basically have to sacrifice a fleet to draw out the DDD's? yes. Is it going to be expensive? **** yes. But then so is a titan. More than 4 or 5 Titans can cover each other's tracks from infinite (nearly) amount of support fleets. Add a cyno jammed system to that - and you've got an invincible pos. Is this the ONLY reason they need to be tweaked? No. But this can ahd has happened, and is utter crap. I'm not advocating a nerf to the point where they are useless - perhaps a refocus on what, exactly, they're supposed to do other than a grid sized super smart bomb that - if you get more than 4 together in a single cynojammed system - becomes immune to nearly every kind of conceivable attack. Read the whole thread to get a better grasp on what's being discussed here. Cheers
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.19 22:15:00 - [476] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon And WHY shoudl anythign be able to survive against 10 Dreads in close range configuration for long? BTW you didnt even cared to do the math. A titan with typical price fitting deadspace stff and Siege module would EASILY tank 10 dreads!! Please post your math that allows you to survive 10 gank fitted dreads in a theoretical siege capable titan. Lets say... 40b in mods as a price cap, so no silly 5 chelm cap rechargers costing more than the titan itself. Oh and lots of things can survive 10 sieged dreads, a carrier can survive 10 sieged dreads, you just need 20 carriers repping it. Cant do that with a sieged titan now can you? Quote: And no i do not think ANYTHIGN shoudl be able to withstand 20 dreads firing on you. A carrier can, a mothership can, and if a titan cannot its going to be worthless. The obvious answer here is to simply remove the seige module and have seperate titan class guns that do a massive amount of damage, with decent enough tracking, I dont think giving the titan the firepower of 2 sieged dreads though, but more powerful than a single dread in siege mode and having better tracking might work better. Titans are vunerable to one class of ship, enemy caps. They arnt really vunerable to enemy supercaps, (DD's arnt enough, and unless your fitting dread weapons on your titan, enemy titans wont do much, motherships pretty much use fighters which a titans regular smartbombs can take care of) Its weapons should be effective against that class of ship. As far as the doomsday, I would rather see it be a beam type weapon that does massive damage (have to target a ship to fire) to a single ship, or a line in space (based on titan alignment). --
Vincent S Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.20 09:01:00 - [477] Titans, cyno jammers and jump bridges have destroyed any chance of having fun in 0.0. If it were up to me I'd just reimburse every titan ever built and remove them from the game entirely. These things lead to stagnation of the game, the old guard will be even more entrenched, and new corps have no chance to uproot an alliance with 10 titans and cyno jammers in every system.
Tanx0r	Posted - 2008.04.20 14:23:00 - [478] whine Linkage to nberleet alliance info and sovereignty maps0rs!!!
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 15:53:00 - [479] Originally by: Tanx0r whine worthless no-content post
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels	Posted - 2008.04.20 21:49:00 - [480] Originally by: Onionico Originally by: TypoNinja The solution is even simpler than that. Don't commit all of your combat assets at once. Its really that simple. Does this mean you basically have to sacrifice a fleet to draw out the DDD's? yes. Is it going to be expensive? ** yes. But then so is a titan. More than 4 or 5 Titans can cover each other's tracks from infinite (nearly) amount of support fleets. Add a cyno jammed system to that - and you've got an invincible pos. Is this the ONLY reason they need to be tweaked? No. But this can ahd has happened, and is utter crap. I'm not advocating a nerf to the point where they are useless - perhaps a refocus on what, exactly, they're supposed to do other than a grid sized super smart bomb that - if you get more than 4 together in a single cynojammed system - becomes immune to nearly every kind of conceivable attack. Read the whole thread to get a better grasp on what's being discussed here. Cheers Im well aware of the never ending titan whine, I've posted in several threads about them, a few times with solid math. So far all I've seen from the people *ing about it can be summed up as "waaa, my sub capital blob sucks at killing a ship designed to ***a sub capital blob." with occasional excuses about cyno jammer combos mixed in. To me thats not a problem, thats the designed function. From my end it looks like spoiled brats complaining that they cant kill over 200 billion isk of titans with a 5 billion isk battleship fleet. At 40 to 1 expenditures I would expect a very one sided fight. People call for nerf this, nerf that, titans are ruining the game, ect ect. But nobody is doing the intelligent thing, nobody wants to think up new tactics they want to go right on blobbing. Well heres another great tactic to go with my previous advice. If you know the enemy has 4+ titans in system, attack somewhere else. Thats right, I know its a wild idea but if the enemy is waiting in ambush for you, not walking into that ambush is a really wise tactic.

Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.20 22:01:00 - [481] These "you're all just too stupid" and "you want to blob everything to death" rageposts are getting boring now and are not convincing anybody at this point.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.04.20 22:07:00 - [482] /me considers a world where a Ragnarok pulls up next to an Erebus, and they blast the sh*t out of each other with AC/Blasters. Later in the fight as the Ragnarok is breaching shield, he opens up a jump portal back to a support fleet 4 systems out, the support fleet arrive and instantly start pounding on the Erebus, the Erebus also summons it's support fleet, and a furious fleet battle occurs under the guns of these space monoliths, as they continue to pound on each other. As the Ragnarok starts to enter hull, its captain gives the order to his fleet, warp out. As the last ship leaves a cataclysmic gout of fire erupts from the Ragnarok in all directions, shattering the enemy fleet, and setting the erebus on fire. The Erebus thus mauled, and with its support fleet in tatters, opens up a jump portal again, and flees. However, unbeknown to its pilot, a covert ops frigate has managed to enter the portal as the titan jumped, before it closed, and is even now broadcasting its covert cyno, ready for the Black ops wing standing by to jump in and finish the titan off, as it limps towards a POS, all modules offlined due to the force of the Ragnarok's DDD. In a later post, depending on feedback if any to this mini-saga, I will cover the changes this story would involve in more detail.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.20 23:08:00 - [483] Originally by: TypoNinja If you know the enemy has 4+ titans in system, attack somewhere else. Everytime this is brought up, I'm pretty certain the poster is a complete idiot. Yes, go attack somewhere else. I sure am glad that the sovlevel that allows jammers doesn't allow jumpbridges, or that titans don't have the ability to create a bridge of their own. Go right ahead, attack "somewhere else". Unless somewhere else is "someone else that doesn't have Titans and isn't allied with someone who does", your plan is ***** terrible. They'll be right at any station system before you get there and all you've done is wasted time traveling. This is not hard at all to get, endlessly stacking AoE weapons, three different methods of invincibility (cynojammers, DD cover, pos forcefields) mean this is a problem that'll only grow exponentially larger with every month that passes until fighting is practically not an option. Their are a ton of CSAAs *ting out Titans all across EvE right now - several alliances you wouldn't consider big names have concurrent ******* builds* and pretty much everyone you could name has at least 1-3 Titans already completed. Soon enough, nearly everybody will be able to stalemate eachother. The exact same prophecy had been made over a year ago - but the growth of this problem is a very slow process due to build times, politics and only recent game changes (jammers/sov4) that have really accelerated construction. And nowhere has anyone arguing to keep the current status quo said "Your predictions of impending disaster aren't true", instead all we've been hearing is "That's just because you don't want things to be that way". Well yes. Because it's unarguably a ******* stupid game to play.
NeverL Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 08:11:00 - [484] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: TypoNinja If you know the enemy has 4+ titans in system, attack somewhere else. Everytime this is brought up, I'm pretty certain the poster is a complete idiot. Its god damn pain in the ass to get everyone through the bridge. it needs fuel, its needs a lot of dicipline, so caps wount get bumped. so, plz try to play the actual game before acting like a grownup. __ We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction - General Douglas MacArthur
Draahk Chimera Caldari Monopropellant Fools	Posted - 2008.04.21 08:37:00 - [485] Edited by: Draahk Chimera on 21/04/2008 08:38:00 Originally by: NeverL Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: TypoNinja If you know the enemy has 4+ titans in system, attack somewhere else. Everytime this is brought up, I'm pretty certain the poster is a complete idiot. Its god damn pain in the ass to get everyone through the bridge. it needs fuel, its needs a lot of dicipline, so caps wount get bumped. so, plz try to play the actual game before acting like a grownup. It is also a pain in the balls to move a sub-capital fleet 10-15 jumps. Every gate more then half your fleet will lag-warp and approx 5% will crash all toghether. I dont know how you do it in BoB but in the alliances Ive been we wait for people who have crashed. By the time the sub capital fleet has arrived at the "somewhere else" the defenders will have had plenty of time to bridge their titans+support, even probably go afk and bake cookies. The obvios solution then would be to attack 2 or more places at once. Unfortunatly this means having not 1 but 2 blobs in the same region. Both of them big enough to threaten a cyno-jammer pos + a support fleet. This in a time where 99% of EVE, players and developers alike, is complaining about too many blobs. My humble suggestion is to remove the DDD all toghether and replace it with a docking bay. Effectivly turning the titans into jumpable stations with clone vat, ship bay, repair and fitting.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 09:20:00 - [486] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/04/2008 09:22:28 Reduce DD range to 50-100km radius and increase DD damage to 250-500k so there's no way a heavy dictor can tank the damage. That would make the use of sub caps more viable as a means and also fix the Titan's current inability to kill 10mil ISK ships. A DOOMSDAY device should be your DOOM. It's ridiculous to think that HID's can tank them with ease if they are set up for them. Hell, even AFs can. - Aeon Edit. And perhaps add an immunity to DD to all capitals. __________ Oh, you didn't think I forgot about you, did you?
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels	Posted - 2008.04.21 09:38:00 - [487] Lack of ability to move your fleet at high speed either speaks of poor logistics, or in the reasons you have servers that aren't up to the task of tracking that much. In that case the answer is not a game mechanic change but rather an out of game change to how the hardware handles large loads. Regardless, I've seen lots of people whine about how its so hard, but I have never heard anyone pointing out how possible tactics for dealing with it fail. But still the bottom line is cost and effect. First off, in siege warfare it always costs more to remove a defender from an entrenched position than it cost the defender to maintain that position. Thats the function of a defencive position, its easier to defend. So if I man my defencive position with over 200 billion isk in assets, would it be right if a 10 billion isk attack fleet could dislodge me? A 50 billion isk effort? 100 billion isk? (well 100 just might work if the attackers were skilled and the defenders were idiots.) Of course not, basic math skills tell us how that should end, a mildly competent FC with 2:1 odds on defence (plus a death star to help out) and troops who know their ass from there elbow should have little trouble holding the field. Tell me I'm wrong here but people are deliberately sending fleets into meat grinders and acting surprised when ground beef is what they get back. Is a fleet warfare game like eve actually that lacking in students of tactics?
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 10:57:00 - [488] Originally by: NeverL Its god damn pain in the ass to get everyone through the bridge. it needs fuel, its needs a lot of dicipline, so caps wount get bumped. so, plz try to play the actual game before acting like a grownup. This is either a terrible troll, or you honestly high-five yourself after managing to bridge. Yeah, that sure is a lot of effort, oh man where will I ever find a hauler and how will I ever organize a feat like having people warp separately and not at 0. I should probably hire a professional to do it for me or maybe record the entire thing and make an inspirational montage out of it. Seriouspost: Been there, done that. Shut up.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:22:00 - [489] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 21/04/2008 11:22:17 Originally by: TypoNinja Lack of ability to move your fleet at high speed either speaks of poor logistics, or in the reasons you have servers that aren't up to the task of tracking that much. In that case the answer is not a game mechanic change but rather an out of game change to how the hardware handles large loads. So what you're saying is that magic is the answer. Because with enough magic we'll revolutionize networking and bend space-time so that group x will travel a larger distance faster than group y travels a smaller one. Sweet. Quote: Regardless, I've seen lots of people whine about how its so hard, but I have never heard anyone pointing out how possible tactics for dealing with it fail. What are you even talking about. "Haha guys go attack somewhere else" is not a tactic of any sort, and even that was easy enough to prove worthless. Quote: But still the bottom line is cost and effect. Get your ***** idioms right. Beating on you already feels like sliding a chihuahua down an interstate. Or a stroll in the terrarium. You could say it's like a rhinoceros in a planned parenthood store. Quote: First off, in siege warfare it always costs more to remove a defender from an entrenched position than it cost the defender to maintain that position. Thats the function of a defencive position, its easier to defend. So if I man my defencive position with over 200 billion isk in assets, would it be right if a 10 billion isk attack fleet could dislodge me? A 50 billion isk effort? 100 billion isk? (well 100 just might work if the attackers were skilled and the defenders were idiots.) So at an average BS loss of about 50 million, about 2000 battleships should be able to kind of get into a system if the defender is sufficiently incompetent. That sounds about right and like a ton of fun. Lets cut out the middleman (the player) entirely, and look at what isk is: A function of moons mined, missions run and NPCs shot along with profit made off of trade - to contest sovereignty we now forgo combat entirely and create a ladder ranking system of alliances according to their net income. You're right, that would solve lagfests quite formidably. Quote: Of course not, basic math skills tell us how that should end, a mildly competent FC with 2:1 odds on defence (plus a death star to help out) and troops who know their ass from there elbow should have little trouble holding the field. What do skills even tell you? 'Basic math' whatever that is might be able to help you arrive at some conclusion, but skills do not. We're having this ambiguous use of language problem here again buddy, sorry. Much like that wonderful hypothetical you dreamt up that is so incoherent I'm not sure if you're meaning for attackers to outnumber defenders, defenders to outnumber attackers or either of them to even exist because for all I know you could be talking about your crippling phobia of dressage and small dogs. Quote: Tell me I'm wrong here You're wrong everywhere. Quote: Tell me I'm wrong here but people are deliberately sending fleets into meat grinders and acting surprised when ground beef is what they get back. Yupp, still wrong. Quote:** Is a fleet warfare game like eve actually that lacking in students of tactics? Okay now you're just setting up straw men for me to knock down, thanks for the help I really appreciate you helping things along. I hope to god you're really fakeposting it up to make things fun, but if not hey that's fantastic I'm sure you have a great future in waste management.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:28:00 - [490] Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 21/04/2008 11:31:59 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Kagura Nikon And WHY shoudl anythign be able to survive against 10 Dreads in close range configuration for long? BTW you didnt even cared to do the math. A titan with typical price fitting deadspace stff and Siege module would EASILY tank 10 dreads!! Please post your math that allows you to survive 10 gank fitted dreads in a theoretical siege capable titan. Lets say... 40b in mods as a price cap, so no silly 5 chelm cap rechargers costing more than the titan itself. Oh and lots of things can survive 10 sieged dreads, a carrier can survive 10 sieged dreads, you just need 20 carriers repping it. Cant do that with a sieged titan now can you? Quote: And no i do not think ANYTHIGN shoudl be able to withstand 20 dreads firing on you. A carrier can, a mothership can, and if a titan cannot its going to be worthless. 3 Capital reps 3 Corpus X hardeners 2 corpus EANM. Stick all mids with officer cap recahrgers and you can sustain TWICE that in cap usage. Now add a siege mode to taht and you would have 33k dps tanked PERMANENT. Add some good drugs and you reach 38 K For those things EFT is a good tool (sicne it allows Siege module in a titan :P) And don't tell me this is an illusory setup because titans ARE fitted with dozens billions of is in modules. And 9/10 times dreads are not GANK fitted but are fitted with long ragne guns and not more than 1 damage mod. That is enough for you to hold 20 dreads logn enough to your support fleet do somethign about some fo them. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Karl Borhman Minmatar Union Of Xtreme Military	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:50:00 - [491] Man I'm glad I stopped playing Eve about 1.5 years ago.
FourthStorm Tact1cal's disadvantage	Posted - 2008.04.21 22:25:00 - [492] I can't be bothered to read 19 pages, but reading from the OP message. Let me see if I get it straight: 1) BoB has a fleet of 8 titans. 2) Goons don't. And your problem is?
stinger7 eve tutors inc	Posted - 2008.04.21 22:57:00 - [493] Originally by: FourthStorm I can't be bothered to read 19 pages, but reading from the OP message. Let me see if I get it straight: 1) BoB has a fleet of 8 titans. 2) Goons don't. And your problem is? Goons want to be able to kill them with friggies.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.22 05:10:00 - [494] Originally by: FourthStorm I can't be bothered to read 19 pages Then get out of this forum.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.22 07:20:00 - [495] Originally by: Kagura Nikon 3 Capital reps 3 Corpus X hardeners 2 corpus EANM. Stick all mids with officer cap recahrgers and you can sustain TWICE that in cap usage. Now add a siege mode to taht and you would have 33k dps tanked PERMANENT. Add some good drugs and you reach 38 K For those things EFT is a good tool (sicne it allows Siege module in a titan :P) And don't tell me this is an illusory setup because titans ARE fitted with dozens billions of is in modules. 1. Only on the avatar. 2. No they really dont. Look at titan lossmails, do you see a full rack of chelm cap rechargers? No, you see 24 and some 28% ones. So ya, your setup is illusionary. 3. 33k dps(drugs dont count, what if you get the cap or armor side effect?) is not 20 dreads. Thats like 20 gank fit hyperions. Quote: And 9/10 times dreads are not GANK fitted but are fitted with long ragne guns and not more than 1 damage mod. That is enough for you to hold 20 dreads logn enough to your support fleet do somethign about some fo them. The trend has been to gank fit dreads with trimarks these days, which is superior to CCC fitted dual rep in almost all situations. Long range guns yes, but a phoenix with 2 BCUs does 3.5k dps, a rail fitted moros with sentry drones does 4k, others do similar amounts I'm sure. So 20 dreads will far outstrip the tank even on your triple rep 100bil setup(which only works on the avatar). So definately no, people will not be using or even building titans if they were just a bigger dread.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels	Posted - 2008.04.22 08:32:00 - [496] Edited by: TypoNinja on 22/04/2008 08:33:22 Quote: That sounds about right and like a ton of fun. Italics mine; Who said anything about it mattering if its fun or not? Your sending an attacking force into a prepared defencive position thats was created specifically to turn your fleet into scrap metal. Sorry to burst your bubble here but 'fun' is not a required function of balancing combat mechanics. Besides there actually is a great deal of fun, just not for you. I'm sure bob is having a blast kicking your ass on the field of battle and then watching you whine to the forums about how unfair it is that they wont roll over and die to your blobs. Again it goes back to the math, you *** titans are broken but I've yet to hear a case of anybody spending the kind of cash needed on an attack to test that yet. People are spending well under a tenth of the cost of the defenders setup and then ***ing they lost, I however see that as no surprise. Since you you seem to lack cognizance of the topic at hand let me spell it out for you another way. 4 titans = 200 billion isk (not an exact figure, im rounding for esay math) their three BS = 100 million isk (again not exact, im rounding for easy math) 200 billion isk in tier three BS's = 2000 battleships. Now lets look at the same value of isk in an easier to understand format. If I attack a POS defended by 2000 battleships with a fleet of 200 battleships. (20 billion isk or there abouts) What would you expect the outcome of that fight to be? I imagine my 200 battleships would get their nuts kicked up between their ears. Dreadnoughts at 1.5 billion isk (Again im rounding sue me im lazy) Defenders field 130 dreadnoughts to guard a POS, I attack that POS with 15 dreadnoughts. Predict the outcome of that fight. So then why all of a sudden when that much isk is put into a titan does it suddenly become unfair when they kick your ass?
Bobafeit The SMITE Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.04.22 09:35:00 - [497] after reading some pages here the easiest fix i see is just dont allow DD in cyno jammed systems just like lowsec that will not nerf the titan and it will give the attacking fleet a chance most alliances with titans have a large cap fleet anyway that they can defend their cyno jammer with ---CEO-The SMITE Brotherhood---
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.23 19:52:00 - [498] Thankfully, CCP doesn't seem to think that "outspending your enemy" should be a viable way to get around using tactics and to break game balance. Again: I don't want Titans to be easy to kill. They should be big and powerful with good tanks etc. but they shouldn't be these instant death machines that prevent combat from occurring. They should be tools, not nukes.
stinger7 eve tutors inc	Posted - 2008.04.23 20:25:00 - [499] Id rather see a alliance outspend to win than outzerg to win tbh, so anything other than a small reduction in range to the DDD will be devastating to how the game is played in the arena of space holding and taking. A 150km DDD is plenty of nerf to remove the problems they cause without removing the only anti zerg tool the game has at the moment,
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.23 22:07:00 - [500] Originally by: stinger7 Id rather see a alliance outspend to win than outzerg to win tbh, so anything other than a small reduction in range to the DDD will be devastating to how the game is played in the arena of space holding and taking. A 150km DDD is plenty of nerf to remove the problems they cause without removing the only anti zerg tool the game has at the moment, Just so we're clear, blobbing with ships is bad and wrong, but blobbing with ISK is perfectly acceptable. We really should just go back to the good old days where EVE had absolutely no balance and if you weren't in a battleship you just died every time. 8x HS Geddon with infinite tracking FTW

stinger7 eve tutors inc	Posted - 2008.04.23 22:28:00 - [501] Edited by: stinger7 on 23/04/2008 22:33:50 Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: stinger7 Id rather see a alliance outspend to win than outzerg to win tbh, so anything other than a small reduction in range to the DDD will be devastating to how the game is played in the arena of space holding and taking. A 150km DDD is plenty of nerf to remove the problems they cause without removing the only anti zerg tool the game has at the moment, Just so we're clear, blobbing with ships is bad and wrong, but blobbing with ISK is perfectly acceptable. We really should just go back to the good old days where EVE had absolutely no balance and if you weren't in a battleship you just died every time. 8x HS Geddon with infinite tracking FTW Stop exaggerating and going all emo it makes you look like a moron. Reducing the DDD to 150km will stop eve from turning into a zerg to win game while removing the titans ability to easily destroy sniper fleets or sit on top of cyno jammers to easily defend them.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.23 23:50:00 - [502] Because it's not like Titans can move or anything.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.04.24 11:42:00 - [503] Edited by: Ambien Torca on 24/04/2008 11:44:52 Attackers can¦t bring in hardware even close to isk value of the defender without playing some timezone games first to even have a remote chance to knock down cyno jammer. Few people can rotate Titan shifts much easier than it is to coordinate enough people to go whack the jammer as quickly as possible before enemy notices you are assembling either by scouts or outright spies.
ChalSto LOCKDOWN.	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:23:00 - [504] Its also compleat rubbish to discuss this issue without the current political situation. First of all: The Doomsday weapon of the Titan-class works as from CCP intended. It prevents from Blobbing (in some way or another/see it as u want). Second: If u know exactly, if u try to zerg-rush a single system with multiple Titans online in that system, u WILL get Doomsday¦ed beyond oblivion. And u should, becouse of stupidity "YEA....LLLEEERROYYYY JEEENKKINNSS.......WE DONT NEED SKILL.......ONLY MASSIVE BLOBBS!!!111. In that case the Doomsday works as intended Third: The problem is not the Titan, nor the Doomsday weapon here....its the Cyno-Jammer and the game-mechanics behind it. In my opinion the cyno-jammer is a failure by CCP and should be removed, also the sov-system. The sov-system has "some" good points, but combined with a cyno-jammer+Titan its broken. So in summary titan+cynoJammer = broken. We all agree to that. But thats not what causes me pain. The real "pain" behind this is, that this topic first becomms a big issue (it was an issue before, but was overlooked by CCP) AFTER GoonSwarm tryed to zerg-rush "QY6" like they did before and realized, that its not as "easy" as allways. Thats why the players have an issue with a call for a "nerf the DD NOW". In that case it only looks like whining, like "auto-aggro" from from carrier-fighters (LOL btw...just lol) for an example. ..and TBFH....its allways the same group of players.....WTH. (i know, the last sentence should be more in the CAOD section).
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:26:00 - [505] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/04/2008 13:44:10 Originally by: stinger7 Stop exaggerating and going all emo it makes you look like a moron. Reducing the DDD to 150km will stop eve from turning into a zerg to win game while removing the titans ability to easily destroy sniper fleets or sit on top of cyno jammers to easily defend them. Originally by: HydroSan Because it's not like Titans can move or anything. So what... its about positioning your assets on the field bud and making large scale warfare with titans more tactical than having them sit on top of a jammers and popping off DDD every few minutes. Yes titans can move but then so can everybody else's ships so the DDD needs to be moved into position for it to be of any use instead of just sitting in a spot and wiping out entire fleets of fools who get close to it. A range reduction would allow BS to shoot them outside of DDD range while still allowing them to be a good anti zerg ship, but then this seems to be about allowing your alliance to zerg space more than a broken game mechanic.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:40:00 - [506] Originally by: ChalSto Its also compleat rubbish to discuss this issue without the current political situation. First of all: The Doomsday weapon of the Titan-class works as from CCP intended. It prevents from Blobbing (in some way or another/see it as u want). WROGN! Completely and uterly WRONG! It does not prevent blobbing! The titan will kill you are you blobbing or not. In fact if youa re not blobbing its 100% sure you will loose because the titan WILL be used. If you are blobbing to EXTREME then you have a chance because lag makes titan pilots fearfull of throwing their ships into a grid that never loads. Titans INCREASE blobbing! In every fracking battle I have been when titan presence was confirmed the only thing resulted is MORE ships requested. Because the ONLY chance to fight a titan IS with a HUGE RIDICULOUS blob. No, Titans completely FAIL at their goal as anti blob weapons! Trying to solve people wanting to fight and have fun with the stick will never work! They will NOT stay at station and log out, they will bring more ships and go to fight, because not going to the fight is not fun, and this is a game! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:02:00 - [507] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/04/2008 17:04:09 They are to good at being anti blob weapons atm as the only thing that can survive multi DDD blasts are other capital ships . From my experience of fighting with titans and against then i have to say that they will stop skilless blobbing (zerging) in crappy ships if the DDD is reduced to 150km or so as commanders will need to position there fleets and assets instead of just warping them in at optimal and f1-f8.
Alice Atphosea	Posted - 2008.04.24 19:43:00 - [508] Could a developer please respond to the issues raised in this thread before the one-man alt-corp posters who continuously spout off "ANTI-BLOB" and "ANTI-ZERG" rhetoric without fleshing out or explaining ANY of their points or rationale overtake this thread? Thank you.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 19:59:00 - [509] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/04/2008 20:00:24 Originally by: Alice Atphosea Could a developer please respond to the issues raised in this thread before the one-man alt-corp posters who continuously spout off "ANTI-BLOB" and "ANTI-ZERG" rhetoric without fleshing out or explaining ANY of their points or rationale overtake this thread? Thank you. Theres no need for anybody to explain it you all you need do is read back in the thread as it has already been explained. That is of course if your tactical knowledge and experience in large scale fleet operation with titans is not sufficient to figure it out for your self.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 20:19:00 - [510] Originally by: lecrotta Theres no need for anybody to explain it you all you need do is read back in the thread as it has already been explained. That is of course if your tactical knowledge and experience in large scale fleet operation with titans is not sufficient to figure it out for your self. Thank you for this, lecrotta of "lecrotta Corp", for your insight into 0.0 warfare, politics, and balancing issues concerning capital ships and Titans. I've never heard of "lecrotta Corp" before! Could you please tell us what wars or skirmishes you've been in that has involved Titans or indeed 0.0 space at all? I'm very interested to see if lecrotta Corp is indeed the 0.0 tactical and strategic space-owning powerhouse they (you) pride themselves (yourself) on! I've been playing the game and living in 0.0 and participating in wars before Titans existed in the game. I'm just going to out on a limb here and say I know a lot more than the entirety of "lecrotta Corp" (you) does (do) about Titans and capital ship warfare!

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 20:43:00 - [511] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/04/2008 20:54:49 I do not need to justify or prove anything to you or anybody else for that matter although my experience comes from leading (on one of my main's) more fleet actions than i can even begin to count including titans on my side and against them. Although your sort of "go after the poster if you cannot handle or disprove the post" attitude belongs on CAOD. Your problem is that you want ccp to remove titans/DDD from the game as they prevent the type of zerg warfare that you wish to use in eve. While myself and others are quite willing to see some sort of reduction in regards to the DDD but are unwilling to see it totally removed as it prevents any group or groups from spamming T1 cruiser or frigate gangs to take or hold space. Now as myself and others have said reducing the DDD to 150km will allow them to remain useful against those who wish to conquer eve with blobs of T1 crap but also leave them vulnerable to well led sniper wings/fleets.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.25 02:40:00 - [512] Edited by: HydroSan on 25/04/2008 02:40:14 I've reverted to using ad hominem against you because I've already written no less than three giant blocks of text and all you and the other one-man-alt-corp posters have done is: 1. Bring up politics including my alliance. 2. Shout ANTI-ZERG as loud and as many times as you can. 3. Bring up "suggestions" that would do absolutely nothing to prevent Titan stacking because it doesn't take into account anything I or other people have brought up in said giant walls of text. Now either post with your main, address the things I've talked about or get out of this thread. Thanks in advance.
Swp Caldari Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:58:00 - [513] Edited by: Swp on 25/04/2008 05:59:02 why to remove it ?its so beautiful ! :D http://www.evetube.com/index.php?playid=343 ___ CVA THE AMARR EMPIRE (movie)
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.25 08:18:00 - [514] Originally by: HydroSan more pro zerg comments and alt insults Even if i could post with one of my mains accounts instead of a cyno alts spare slot i would not simply because you would focus on the person not the point. Your ideas as usual favor goons style of "blob T1 crap to win" so much that if things are moved in the direction you want we would see more of the coalition style warfare that we did last year only ppl will fly cheap rubbish. What would be the point of flying dreads or carriers or even battleships when you can put ppl in fitted ships that cost less than their clones and just spam them into systems over and over until you have worn down the ppl your fighting. This is the future you want for eve and it always has been from day one. You claim its for the betterment of eve but the truth is its for the betterment of goons and nobody else, now you claim to have ad be a expert on fleet and titan warfare so if you cannot see the opportunities that a DDD that is reduced to 150km or so would bring a good FC then its only because you do not want to and thats your decision and narrow mindedness or lack of skill/gamr knowledge il let you decide witch.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.25 19:13:00 - [515] Hey I'm just going to butcher this post by posting things I've already said. Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 25/04/2008 13:34:12Even if i could post with one of my mains accounts instead of a cyno alts spare slot i would not simply because you would try to focus on the person not the point, although as a 2003 player i have seen and led fleets in eve enough to know what i am talking about tbh. My blocks of text have nothing to do with personal attacks. Quote: I just read your blocks of text btw and now Ive finished laughing i will just say that your ideas about how to fight titans are a joke. All of your negative comments involve your FC warping your conventional fleet into range of multiple DDD and getting nailed. Nowhere in your so called tactical knowledge and reviews do you use, consider the usefulness or that you even have your own titans or capital fleet around. Your only point on your self acclaimed blocks of text is that a conventional fleet cannot beat a fleet of multiple titans + super cap support + cap support + conventional support. Well duuhh of course not ffs where would be the balance if they could?. But hey if you bring your own titans + super cap support + cap support + conventional support to combat them i bet you could put up one heck of a fight and have a chance to actually win unless your commanders are as lacking in combat skill and knowledge as you are. My "only" point is that even with your own capital fleet and Titans support fleets are entirely nullified. Conventional fleets are absolutely useless when both sides have multiple Titans. You say there would be "one heck of a fight": of course there would be. Between the capital ships. The conventional ships just may as well log off because they're not going to fire a shot off before they eat 70k HP of damage. Again: POS timers and the grids POSes occupy dictate WHEN and WHERE engagements will happen. "Attacking another location" is not an option if you want to take a system. The defenders can dictate the POS reinforcement timers so even if you reinforce two systems, your enemy can just time them 5 hours apart and move their Titans between the two systems. Quote: Your ideas as usual favor the style of "blob T1 crap to win" (or zerging if you prefer) so much that if things are moved in the direction you want we would see more of the coalition style warfare that we did last year only ppl will fly cheap rubbish. What would be the point of flying dreads or carriers or even battleships when you can put ppl in fitted ships that cost less than their clones and just spam them into systems over and over until you have worn down the ppl your fighting. This is the future ppl like you want for eve and it always has been from day one. T2 snipers and HACs are just as dead in the face of multiple Titans as T1 frigates. Do you honestly think doomsdays discriminate between "crappy" ships and "uber" ships? Nice ad hominem attack there by the way, but unfortunately I've been flying T2 snipers for a year now non-stop so that little theory of yours is patently false. Quote: You claim its for the betterment of eve but the truth is its for the betterment of your alliance and nobody else, now.... you claim to be a expert on fleet and titan warfare so if you cannot see the opportunities that a DDD that is reduced to 150km or so would bring a good FC then its only because you do not want to and thats your narrow mindedness or lack of skill/game knowledge i will let you decide witch. I claim it's for the betterment of conventional fleet warfare. Conventional ships are what the majority of EVE fly. So yes, I want the game to be better for the majority of EVE players.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.25 19:32:00 - [516] Edited by: lecrotta on 25/04/2008 19:36:25 Originally by: HydroSan My "only" point is that even with your own capital fleet and Titans support fleets are entirely nullified. Conventional fleets are absolutely useless when both sides have multiple Titans. You say there would be "one heck of a fight": of course there would be. Between the capital ships. The conventional ships just may as well log off because they're not going to fire a shot off before they eat 70k HP of damage. As i have clearly stated over and over again and you seem to keep ignoring in your haste to reduce eve to a t1 blobbing game, reducing the DDD to a range of around 150km will give conventional fleets a big enough window to attack along with whatever capital assets you bring. Unless you are still going to warp inside that 150km with your conventional ships in which case you deserve to die.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.25 19:55:00 - [517] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 25/04/2008 02:40:14 I've reverted to using ad hominem against you because I've already written no less than three giant blocks of text and all you and the other one-man-alt-corp posters have done is: 1. Bring up politics including my alliance. 2. Shout ANTI-ZERG as loud and as many times as you can. 3. Bring up "suggestions" that would do absolutely nothing to prevent Titan stacking because it doesn't take into account anything I or other people have brought up in said giant walls of text. Now either post with your main, address the things I've talked about or get out of this thread. Thanks in advance. Now you know how it feels. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.25 21:30:00 - [518] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 25/04/2008 02:40:14 I've reverted to using ad hominem against you because I've already written no less than three giant blocks of text and all you and the other one-man-alt-corp posters have done is: 1. Bring up politics including my alliance. 2. Shout ANTI-ZERG as loud and as many times as you can. 3. Bring up "suggestions" that would do absolutely nothing to prevent Titan stacking because it doesn't take into account anything I or other people have brought up in said giant walls of text. Now either post with your main, address the things I've talked about or get out of this thread. Thanks in advance. Now you know how it feels. You, of all people, dont get to make this claim.
Leto Aramaus Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.25 22:45:00 - [519] Titans... and their doomsdays, are awesome. I think no ship smaller than a Capital should survive ONE doomsday. no matter how tanked it is. However 8 titans is quite ridiculous and does ruin fleet combat, to an extent. So my suggested solution is to make Titans more expensive. MUCH MUCH more expensive, so no single alliance can amass that many titans unless they build them up and save them and never use them. Also the doomsday should require more time to recharge before using again. If titans and their superweapons had these attributes I think I would say good job to anyone who had a fleet of 8 of them. --Freedom
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.25 23:36:00 - [520] Originally by: Gamesguy You, of all people, dont get to make this claim. That is rich, coming from you.

HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.26 01:54:00 - [521] Edited by: HydroSan on 26/04/2008 01:55:47 Originally by: Leto Aramaus Titans... and their doomsdays, are awesome. I think no ship smaller than a Capital should survive ONE doomsday. no matter how tanked it is. However 8 titans is quite ridiculous and does ruin fleet combat, to an extent. So my suggested solution is to make Titans more expensive. MUCH MUCH more expensive, so no single alliance can amass that many titans unless they build them up and save them and never use them. Also the doomsday should require more time to recharge before using again. If titans and their superweapons had these attributes I think I would say good job to anyone who had a fleet of 8 of them. This would only cement the superiority of alliances who already own a dozen Titans and entirely shut out any of the newer alliances who would like to build their own. Originally by: lecrotta As i have clearly stated over and over again and you seem to keep ignoring in your haste to reduce eve to a t1 blobbing game, reducing the DDD to a range of around 150km will give conventional fleets a big enough window to attack along with whatever capital assets you bring. Unless you are still going to warp inside that 150km with your conventional ships in which case you deserve to die. In your idea of eve without titans it would not be worth flying anything but a t1 frig or cruiser along with 3-500 other brosefs in a fleet and with more in reserve a few jumps out, after all what would be the use of a 200+ mil t2 sniper ship when you can spam 50 cruisers for the same price at no more risk?. Okay I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and present to you an entirely plausible situation assuming we go by your 150km doomsday nerf theory. My alliances has ten Titans. I keep five on grid in a group and five off grid at a POS. My enemy warps in at 190km within T2 battleship sniper range. If they primary a Titan, it can absorb up to 7k DPS sustainably due to officer mods and officer cap rechargers. Meanwhile, I use my three dictor alts to bubble the enemy battleship fleet and warp in my five remaining Titans into them and set off three doomsdays: their entire fleet is dead. Second scenario: my enemy wishes to take down a cyno jammer. They must either come in point blank in remote repping high-DPS battleships or go out to sniping range with T2 snipers. I warp in my four dictor alts, bubble them, and have five of my Titans warp in and doomsday: their entire fleet is dead. You entire theory fails to take into account both Titan stacking and the fact that Titans can warp, jump, cloak and move. What happens when alliances get 15 Titans, which is at most six months away at this rate? Just keep five Titans in little blobs at every possible approach vector and you've got a system which is a complete subcapital killzone. Let's just hope CCP doesn't share your "go capital or go home" approach. My skillpoints, my player skill, my ship, my modules and the skill of the FC MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when the enemy can Right Click -> Warp to Member and press F1 to wipe me out. Post with your ******* main.
Foomanshoe Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 03:35:00 - [522] Rather then reducing range or giving them a ridiculous CD. I think it would be better if the grid had a 'soft' CD. Basically add in a warning that if multiple doomsday devices are activated in the same vicinity, the results could be disasterous. Then basically give each grid a variable "doomsdayactivate 0/1" which resets each day, if the value is 1 and a doomsday is activated, a warning pops up saying this region of space is highly unstable due to an earlier activation are you sure you wish to continue? If they do it, they have a 50% chance to rip a hole in space and kill everything, including any titans present. The hole is left as a new feature in space. Basically activating multiple doomsday is to dangerous to attempt unless you absolutely need everything there to die. It also discourages clumping titans together as your enemy could take out multiple titans by sacrificing one of their own. _______________________________________________ Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.26 04:14:00 - [523] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Gamesguy You, of all people, dont get to make this claim. That is rich, coming from you. Is there a parrot in the room?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.26 09:42:00 - [524] Originally by: HydroSan Okay I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and present to you an entirely plausible situation assuming we go by your 150km doomsday nerf theory. My alliances has ten Titans. I keep five on grid in a group and five off grid at a POS. My enemy warps in at 190km within T2 battleship sniper range. If they primary a Titan, it can absorb up to 7k DPS sustainably due to officer mods and officer cap rechargers. Meanwhile, I use my three dictor alts to bubble the enemy battleship fleet and warp in my five remaining Titans into them and set off three doomsdays: their entire fleet is dead. Second scenario: my enemy wishes to take down a cyno jammer. They must either come in point blank in remote repping high-DPS battleships or go out to sniping range with T2 snipers. I warp in my four dictor alts, bubble them, and have five of my Titans warp in and doomsday: their entire fleet is dead. You entire theory fails to take into account both Titan stacking and the fact that Titans can warp, jump, cloak and move. What happens when alliances get 15 Titans, which is at most six months away at this rate? Just keep five Titans in little blobs at every possible approach vector and you've got a system which is a complete subcapital killzone. Let's just hope CCP doesn't share your "go capital or go home" approach. My skillpoints, my player skill, my ship, my modules and the skill of the FC MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when the enemy can Right Click -> Warp to Member and press F1 to wipe me out. Post with your ******* main. I see once again your idea about titans/DDD being broken relies heavily on: 1. Your members being total morons and not being able to align there ships for some reason. 2. Your leaders/scouts not having a clue what so ever about how to use a scanner and checking for incoming dictors. 3. Your smaller support not popping incoming dictors. 4. Your cloaked titans dropping cloak and virtually insta warping to the grid point so it can pop its load before also getting scanned and allowing your snipers to warp away and come in at another angle. (cos titans are fast at warping just like interceptors hey bud). 5. Once again you do not include your own capital fleet in any of the equation's and scenarios as im sure they could easily deal with the 7k sustained dps tank while laughing at the DDD. 6. Not only that but having capital support on grid or in the area would make most titan pilots think carefully about just casually warping in and dropping a load. Now every one of you so called scenarios as usual rely totally on your fleet commanders, scouts and members being total morons and not only that but you scenarios are utterly unrealistic as they rely on titans being able to buzz about like a interceptor. For somebody who claims to be a expert on titans and fleet warfare you are either being deliberately dense or you just suck at what you claim to know about.
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.04.26 10:58:00 - [525] Look at all the goons in this thread..... According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.04.26 17:12:00 - [526] Edited by: Thirzarr on 26/04/2008 17:12:08 Put a system-wide shared cooldown of 24h on Doomsday Devices. The System just cant handle another explosion of that sort. So no two Doomsday devices can get fired off in one System in one day. Call it "System Stability Cooldown".
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.27 05:06:00 - [527] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 26/04/2008 10:22:10 I see once again your idea about titans/DDD being broken relies heavily on: 1. Your members being total morons and not being able to align there ships for some reason. 2. Your leaders/scouts not having a clue what so ever about how to use a scanner and checking for incoming dictors. 3. Your smaller support not popping incoming dictors. 4. Your cloaked titans dropping cloak and virtually insta warping to the grid point so it can pop its load before also getting scanned and allowing your snipers to warp away and come in at another angle. (cos titans are fast at warping just like interceptors hey bud). Or getting probed, bubbled and owned by your cap/conv fleet before it warps. 5. Once again you do not include your own capital fleet in any of the equation's and scenarios as im sure they could easily deal with the 7k sustained dps tank while laughing at the DDD. 6. Not only that but having capital support on grid or in the area would make most titan pilots think carefully about just casually warping in and dropping a load. 7. 15 titans to cover every possible vector?.. are you kidding?.. even if they could to do so would put them way out of position as groups and vulnerable to attack from your capital fleet and snipers. (do you have any tactical xp at all?) Now every one of your so called scenarios as usual rely totally on your fleet commanders, scouts and members being total morons who are unable to use even a scanner let alone probes and not only that but your scenarios are utterly unrealistic as they rely on titans being able to buzz about like a interceptor. For somebody who claims to be a expert on titans and fleet warfare you are either being deliberately dense or you just suck at what you claim to know about. I had to reply because just wow, are you ever so blind. 1) He said the fleet was bubbled, you can be aligned all you want but it wont matter because you cant warp. 2) How do you use a scanner to check for incoming dictors when there are 15 in your scan results every time, some on grid some off grid. Preventing a dictor from warping in and dropping a bubble is pretty much not feasable unless you want to keep warping your fleet out and never getting anything done. 3) Tell me which small support can tank pos guns easily, and pop a dictor fast enough. And anti dictor ships wont be able to pop any dictors in warp till they come out of warp. So if your enemy uses a covops they could easily get a 0km warpin on your bs fleet. 4) why would they have to cloak, they can simply just be aligned. 5)You cannot have caps in a cyno-jammed system unless you had them there before the cyno jammer went up, or logged off after you knocked down the cyno jammer on a previous attempt. So this point is irrelevent 6) Cant have caps, see cynojammer, cyno jammers prevent cynos. The only other way to get caps in is through a jump bridge, which requires sov 7) If you dont have a cap fleet in system you cant use it can you? The main question of this thread is how does a BS and smaller gang outwit a titan pilot to kill a cyno jammer with an enormous amount of HP (so much HP that alliances prefer to destroy the module and anchor a new one instead of repping it). basically your saying its tactically stupid to attack a system with a gang of players if the system contains 3 titans and ~6 dictors and a cyno jammer. While everyone else is saying, why should it? --
jayloh Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.27 06:13:00 - [528] Originally by: Draygo Korvan I had to reply because just wow, are you ever so blind. 1) He said the fleet was bubbled, you can be aligned all you want but it wont matter because you cant warp. 2) How do you use a scanner to check for incoming dictors when there are 15 in your scan results every time, some on grid some off grid. Preventing a dictor from warping in and dropping a bubble is pretty much not feasable unless you want to keep warping your fleet out and never getting anything done. 3) Tell me which small support can tank pos guns easily, and pop a dictor fast enough. And anti dictor ships wont be able to pop any dictors in warp till they come out of warp. So if your enemy uses a covops they could easily get a 0km warpin on your bs fleet. 4) why would they have to cloak, they can simply just be aligned. 5)You cannot have caps in a cyno-jammed system unless you had them there before the cyno jammer went up, or logged off after you knocked down the cyno jammer on a previous attempt. So this point is irrelevent 6) Cant have caps, see cynojammer, cyno jammers prevent cynos. The only other way to get caps in is through a jump bridge, which requires sov 7) If you dont have a cap fleet in system you cant use it can you? The main question of this thread is how does a BS and smaller gang outwit a titan pilot to kill a cyno jammer with an enormous amount of HP (so much HP that alliances prefer to destroy the module and anchor a new one instead of repping it). basically your saying its tactically stupid to attack a system with a gang of players if the system contains 3 titans and ~6 dictors and a cyno jammer. While everyone else is saying, why should it? Your points are maybe all valid and reasonable. But you are talking about one special situation that is where more than 5 titans are defending one cyno-jammed system. In all other scenarios the DDD is quite ok the way it is working and there are more than enough ways to evade a titan DDD with your supcap fleet and make the titan pay for coming out of its hiding. Since the only people that experienced such a situation are people that tried to take on the NOL-fortress no one besides RAswarm really cares about that. All IÆm saying: DonÆt change DDD, change the way sovereignty (and therefore cyno jam) is handled which would make way more sense because you can address other issues in the same run. I for one would be glad if there would be more titans around so we can make em go pop
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.27 10:19:00 - [529] Edited by: lecrotta on 27/04/2008 10:24:22 Originally by: Draygo Korvan I had to reply because just wow, are you ever so blind. 1) He said the fleet was bubbled, you can be aligned all you want but it wont matter because you cant warp. Im not blind, you did not HAVE to reply and i said you could be aligned in response cos you can warp out faster before you get bubbled. Originally by: Draygo Korvan 2) How do you use a scanner to check for incoming dictors when there are 15 in your scan results every time, some on grid some off grid. Preventing a dictor from warping in and dropping a bubble is pretty much not feasable unless you want to keep warping your fleet out and never getting anything done. You obviously have no idea how to use scanners properly in large fleet ops, get some training off ppl who know how. Originally by: Draygo Korvan 3) Tell me which small support can tank pos guns easily, and pop a dictor fast enough. And anti dictor ships wont be able to pop any dictors in warp till they come out of warp. So if your enemy uses a covops they could easily get a 0km warpin on your bs fleet. Who says the pos is gonna be shooting at all the small support? even if it is manned.. or have enough time to pop them all even if the gunners do shoot at them before the jammer goes down?..heres a hint they warp out as individuals as the pos targets them. Originally by: Draygo Korvan 4) why would they have to cloak, they can simply just be aligned. Aligned in space so you can probe them down and gank them or aligned in a pos so you can see them warp and tell your snipers to warp out?. Originally by: Draygo Korvan 5)You cannot have caps in a cyno-jammed system unless you had them there before the cyno jammer went up, or logged off after you knocked down the cyno jammer on a previous attempt. So this point is irrelevent Originally by: Draygo Korvan 6) Cant have caps, see cynojammer, cyno jammers prevent cynos. The only other way to get caps in is through a jump bridge, which requires sov Originally by: Draygo Korvan 7) If you dont have a cap fleet in system you cant use it can you? This thread was about multiple titans and there DDD being unkillable not them and the cyno jammers together. Although with the DDD reduced to 150km a jammer take down is now very doable but still a risky and exciting/entertaining operation. Im sorry if you cannot turn on eve to easy mode but perhaps you should try another game, WOW perhaps cos you know if you die there you get to keep all your stuff.
mama guru Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.27 11:06:00 - [530] No time for goodbye he said As he faded away Don't put your life in someone's hands Their bound to steal it away Don't hide your mistakes 'Cause they'll find you, burn you Then he said If you want to get out alive Run for your life If you want to get out alive Run for your life ... Yes multiple titans are pretty much unbreakable, Especially when deffing a cyno jammer. And sadly, the only way to remove the problems of multiple doomsdays is to remove doomsdays as a whole. Or give them game breaking requirements like sucking up all remaining cap or something. All in all its really hard to fix. EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.

KompleX Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:30:00 - [531] I personally havent experienced a DDD first hand, but if a change is needed, this too me sounds pretty good: How about if you gave the titans more slots to fit several capital guns, and then give the titans massive boosts to tracking and dmg from capital guns, so that if you got targeted and shot at by a titan, you were pretty much dead anyway. After all it IS a titan, and you shouldnt really be able to survive it if it shoots at you. But wiping out entire fleets with the push of a buttion sounds kinda dumb.
Aequitas Veritas Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:52:00 - [532] If not being able to warp because youre bubbled then maybe its overpowered because of the silly overpowered dictorbubbles and not the DD itself. That one or two ships can keep a 100 man fleet scrambled is actually the most overpowered thing in the game. Game was more fun as well before when you needed support to scramble and not only snipers + 5 dictors. I loved our 50 vs 50 gangs when all the BS had scramblers fitted and went in close to duke it out. Man that was fun... "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Salome Dicasi	Posted - 2008.04.27 23:31:00 - [533] its part of the game, i'd get used to it
Norjia Blacksteel Gallente Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.28 00:26:00 - [534] Originally by: Aequitas Veritas That one or two ships can keep a 100 man fleet scrambled is actually the most overpowered thing in the game. I agree with this. ---- Norjia Blacksteel CEO Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.28 03:41:00 - [535] nothing like a doomsday thread to spur on these arguments... i'm a big fan of changeing the doomsday device from a weapon that instantly ends fleet fights to one that simply hastens them. the fact that one single ship, with its availability beyond easy to the biggest players, can be stacked four times over and destroy every single subcap on the field with no hope of survival removes the role of the enemy's support fleet, especially considering the fact that you can warp out your own fleet in time with the arrival of the multiple titans on grid as the goon was saying (RK just reset goons, before the ad-hominem comes this way), staying aligned is a great way to avoid being doomsdayed, provided you're not in an anchored bubble, a dictor bubble, or a hactor bubble, and luck is on your side such that when you hit warp, your lag is less than the lag of the titan pilot spamming his ddd button. in a big, laggy fleet battle, you have about as much chance of getting out in time as someone that's currently bubbled. what do i suggest instead? turn the DDD into an OMGWTF gang link. one doomsday allowed per squad, and all squad members get some ZOMGDOOOOD kinda effect that allows them to... (wait for it...!) cut through the enemy fleet with twice the speed while requiring that they be able to control their ship during the fight. this way, the doomsday enhances the capabilities of friendly sub-caps without obsoleting the enemy sub-cap fleet. make a short-lasting effect that requires a cooldown, one doomsday effect applied to any set of players at a time, and for the sake of fun, the effects apply only to subcaps make titans speed up the fight by amplifying the force of their support fleet, rather than just pushing the i-win button Originally by: Matrixcvd can the RL arguments just take a back seat, i dont care about horatio hornblower or what the battle of juttland was like.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.28 04:07:00 - [536] Learn to burn out of bubbles? And your suggestion would just make titans sit at a pos all day, at least now they need to move outside of a pos to DD.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.28 04:39:00 - [537] burning out of a bubble only works when you're not lagged out in a giant fleet fight. and even if you can burn out of that bubble, telling your ship to warp and having the server receive you request to do so before the titan comes onto grid and spams the DDD button is still a big if i've always thought that gang links should only work on the same grid as the gang-booster. otherwise, you can just sit at a pos and boost your gang remotely. the new DDD would apply only to friendlies on-grid, and in the same squad (not the whole wing or fleet.) huge bonus to the capabilities of the support fleet, speeds up the fight, puts everyone at risk, and makes you have to fight for your victory, not just use broken game mechanics and having you and three friends push the i-win button at the same time poke holes in the specifics i pointed out, but regardless, the design philosophy i'd employ for the titan is a ship that doesn't have an i-win button, extends the capabilities of its fleet, and makes the fight more fun for all involved, rather than the current system where you warp in, maybe load one or two frames after the grid, lose your ship in 1-2 successive doomsdays, then wake up in station after the third one. MAKE THE TITAN MAKE FIGHTS MORE FUN FOR ALL INVOLVED. my idea of a good time is not a single ship that neutralizes the entire enemy fleet before they can fly in, get on some killmails, and have fun. we all get popped in battle, it would just be nice if there wasn't a ship that ends the fight before it starts
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.04.28 10:51:00 - [538] Edited by: lecrotta on 28/04/2008 10:53:54 Originally by: Chomapuraku burning out of a bubble only works when you're not lagged out in a giant fleet fight. and even if you can burn out of that bubble, telling your ship to warp and having the server receive you request to do so before the titan comes onto grid and spams the DDD button is still a big if i've always thought that gang links should only work on the same grid as the gang-booster. otherwise, you can just sit at a pos and boost your gang remotely. the new DDD would apply only to friendlies on-grid, and in the same squad (not the whole wing or fleet.) huge bonus to the capabilities of the support fleet, speeds up the fight, puts everyone at risk, and makes you have to fight for your victory, not just use broken game mechanics and having you and three friends push the i-win button at the same time poke holes in the specifics i pointed out, but regardless, the design philosophy i'd employ for the titan is a ship that doesn't have an i-win button, extends the capabilities of its fleet, and makes the fight more fun for all involved, rather than the current system where you warp in, maybe load one or two frames after the grid, lose your ship in 1-2 successive doomsdays, then wake up in station after the third one. MAKE THE TITAN MAKE FIGHTS MORE FUN FOR ALL INVOLVED. my idea of a good time is not a single ship that neutralizes the entire enemy fleet before they can fly in, get on some killmails, and have fun. we all get popped in battle, it would just be nice if there wasn't a ship that ends the fight before it starts So lag makes ppl unable to get out of a bubble or activate modules/mwd and get away from a DDD but in the next breath you say that the titan should be a big gang mod kinda ship that gives huge bonuses to the same lagged out ships that cannot activate mods in the first place?.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.28 11:05:00 - [539] Originally by: Chomapuraku burning out of a bubble only works when you're not lagged out in a giant fleet fight. and even if you can burn out of that bubble, telling your ship to warp and having the server receive you request to do so before the titan comes onto grid and spams the DDD button is still a big if i've always thought that gang links should only work on the same grid as the gang-booster. otherwise, you can just sit at a pos and boost your gang remotely. the new DDD would apply only to friendlies on-grid, and in the same squad (not the whole wing or fleet.) huge bonus to the capabilities of the support fleet, speeds up the fight, puts everyone at risk, and makes you have to fight for your victory, not just use broken game mechanics and having you and three friends push the i-win button at the same time poke holes in the specifics i pointed out, but regardless, the design philosophy i'd employ for the titan is a ship that doesn't have an i-win button, extends the capabilities of its fleet, and makes the fight more fun for all involved, rather than the current system where you warp in, maybe load one or two frames after the grid, lose your ship in 1-2 successive doomsdays, then wake up in station after the third one. MAKE THE TITAN MAKE FIGHTS MORE FUN FOR ALL INVOLVED. my idea of a good time is not a single ship that neutralizes the entire enemy fleet before they can fly in, get on some killmails, and have fun. we all get popped in battle, it would just be nice if there wasn't a ship that ends the fight before it starts Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.28 16:27:00 - [540] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 28/04/2008 10:53:54 Originally by: Chomapuraku burning out of a bubble only works when you're not lagged out in a giant fleet fight. and even if you can burn out of that bubble, telling your ship to warp and having the server receive you request to do so before the titan comes onto grid and spams the DDD button is still a big if i've always thought that gang links should only work on the same grid as the gang-booster. otherwise, you can just sit at a pos and boost your gang remotely. the new DDD would apply only to friendlies on-grid, and in the same squad (not the whole wing or fleet.) huge bonus to the capabilities of the support fleet, speeds up the fight, puts everyone at risk, and makes you have to fight for your victory, not just use broken game mechanics and having you and three friends push the i-win button at the same time poke holes in the specifics i pointed out, but regardless, the design philosophy i'd employ for the titan is a ship that doesn't have an i-win button, extends the capabilities of its fleet, and makes the fight more fun for all involved, rather than the current system where you warp in, maybe load one or two frames after the grid, lose your ship in 1-2 successive doomsdays, then wake up in station after the third one. MAKE THE TITAN MAKE FIGHTS MORE FUN FOR ALL INVOLVED. my idea of a good time is not a single ship that neutralizes the entire enemy fleet before they can fly in, get on some killmails, and have fun. we all get popped in battle, it would just be nice if there wasn't a ship that ends the fight before it starts So lag makes ppl unable to get out of a bubble or activate modules/mwd and get away from a DDD but in the next breath you say that the titan should be a big gang mod kinda ship that gives huge bonuses to the same lagged out ships that cannot activate mods in the first place?. if the doomsday were a super gang-link, its use wouldn't be a trump card in a lagged-out fight. if it gave bonuses to the lagged-out ships, those ships would make use of the bonuses conferred upon them as soon as they could get control of their ships and activate mods. the point is, this kind of system would be useful without lag making it overpowered or useless. for instance, make the effect last a couple of minutes, with a cooldown time x multiples of that, so that most of those under its influence would be able to fight while bonussed regardless of the lag it's true that eve isn't balanced around lag, but would it really hurt that much to tweak the game mechanics to reduce its influence? Originally by: Matrixcvd can the RL arguments just take a back seat, i dont care about horatio hornblower or what the battle of juttland was like.

HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:22:00 - [541] Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:56:00 - [542] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.28 21:08:00 - [543] waddaya guys think of the doomsday as a device that causes the pace of the battle to speed waaaay the ** up for a short period of time without being an instant i-win button? how about something like a 5x bonus to everyone in squad's ROF for the racial weapons of the titan (except maybe caps in siege, drones or fighters) for a short period of time? everyone empties their guns onto the primary for a few cycles, or spreads out their fire to take out the enemy fleet piecemeal. maybe add the ability for titans to fit either siege or triage mods, if this were the DDD? now that i think about it, the only good thing i can think of that the doomsday currently does is, if you do 2-3 of them in succession, clears the grid of everyone's pods (wrecks too?) and boots people out of local (thus reducing lag, in theory). does this happen in practice? there's probably a million holes to poke in this, but whatever. anything to stimulate the discussion of an alternative to the current system. Originally by:** Matrixcvd can the RL arguments just take a back seat, i dont care about horatio hornblower or what the battle of juttland was like.
Kedo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 02:51:00 - [544] Why not just have an immunity timer? You can only get hit with a DD every 5 minutes or so. Many games use this such as a stun or mezz immunity timer just cause chain doing it is overpowering.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:26:00 - [545] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase. Reduced the number of drones a ship could deploy because of lag. Removed Torpedo "splash damage" because it caused lag (and got people concorded). EVE is balanced on lag all the damn time. Stop spouting nonsense.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.29 09:58:00 - [546] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Drones and Torpedoes would like a word with you. And how are drones and torpedoes balanced on lag? Before you say it, the drone reduction/rof increase is not a nerf or a rebalance, because on paper 5 drones with drone interfacing 5=10 drones previously, and same with the heavy drone rof increase. Reduced the number of drones a ship could deploy because of lag. Removed Torpedo "splash damage" because it caused lag (and got people concorded). EVE is balanced on lag all the damn time. Stop spouting nonsense. Bull. Number of drones you could controll was nerfed yes, but a corresponding increase in drone damage was the counterbalance. Drones do the same damage as they did before, with the same amount of total hp. In fact its a buff if anything, because drones became half as vulnerable to smartbombs. Torpedo splash was removed due to concord, not because of lag. Be kinda silly to have one race's bs sized weapon be useless in highsec because everytime you fired concord came. So stop making **** up. Of the countless hundreds of nerfs and buffs in eve, you cant even name one nerf that was solely due to lag?
Aeleva Caldari Hegemonic Core	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:11:00 - [547] Drone balance was good, they are still very powerful Torps are now AWESOME! I mean the DPS you can throw out is stupid. Especially considering the lack of cap usage. I would be sad to see doomsday be "removed" If you get DDed your FC is doing it wrong. Why jump into a system via a camped gate? What is the jump bridge for? Have flown in 0.0 and avoided a few DDs. Of course i got killed in the massive lagfest after when enemy fleet jumped though :D If lag wasnt an issue then there wouldnt be a need to remove DDs as you could get out of bubbles or avoid it.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:15:00 - [548] Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Ship hitpoints have doubled over the last 18 months, capital hitpoints have been tripled to quadrupled. Object collisions, fleet mechanics and shiptypes have been changed/added to deal with the realities of lag.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:20:00 - [549] Originally by: Aeleva If you get DDed your FC is doing it wrong. Why jump into a system via a camped gate? What is the jump bridge for? If you can jump bridge, you own the system and have done so for 5 weeks. I'm going to venture a guess and say you're probably not going to be attacking your own station systems anytime soon. Quote: If lag wasnt an issue then there wouldnt be a need to remove DDs as you could get out of bubbles or avoid it. Funny story, in low lag it's perfectly possible to vaporize people the second they land - making the big assumption that they get into a system via stargates in the first place, which is not ******* likely. Lag has little to do with why Titans are a terrible idea, neither do recent politics since Doomsday complaints go back all the way before they were ever deployed.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:27:00 - [550] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Originally by: Gamesguy Eve is never balanced on lag, or ships would have a lot more hitpoints. Ship hitpoints have doubled over the last 18 months, capital hitpoints have been tripled to quadrupled. Object collisions, fleet mechanics and shiptypes have been changed/added to deal with the realities of lag. Ship hitpoints increased because ccp wanted to make combat last longer, but to reduce lag. Same with capitals, it was part of the "make combat last longer" patch.

aaron 619 Gallente DAB	Posted - 2008.04.30 10:01:00 - [551] Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. If I can do it, so can you! If you choose not to, your fault, not mine! Stop Spamming the T1 Nerf Torp CCP. Invent a T2 boost Torp and use it! Balance is Important, EVE still being fun, Priceles
Vincent S Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:35:00 - [552] Originally by: aaron 619 Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. No, the problem is that when you have a titan there will only be 1 corp in 0.0, because everyone else will have quit because the game sucks
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:35:00 - [553] Originally by: aaron 619 Stop trying to get rid of titans. people and alliances put untold amounts of hard work into building them and managing them. I say bring back DD to cycno and get rid of the nerfs that were put on them to make them stay put for , what is it, 10 mins, omg that sucks so bad. I want to be able to fly a titan one day....at this rate I'm not going to want to any more. I hope that's not what CCP wants, I don 't give a rats ass about what you want for the game. so if you pay enough isk you should get an i-win button that can easily keep itself out of danger? you can't have fun with a titan if it doesn't have an i-win button? 75 billion is a lot, right? what if you're a corp of several hundred experienced players with several promethium and dyspro moons, numerous t2 bpo's, the bpos to build the titans already purchased, a jump bridge/titan bridge network that can move fleets of freighters from empire to your capital production poses in 2-3 jumps... suddenly, titans are no longer so far out of reach, and all alliances, even the ones living in the **tiest space (wink wink) can run their own titan project and get results. getting together 70 billion isk for the bpo is not hard in a big alliance (mandatory 70 million isk/character donation in a 1000-character alliance). building/acquiring all the capital parts to build a titan is not hard if you have a good industrial backbone managed by experienced characters (several motherships' worth of parts, which can be built with a half-decent industrial pos network and a station with factory slots). hell, even the biggest hassle, freighting all those parts to the capital construction array, is no longer a problem, now that jump-bridge networks can move the freighter trains right to the capital construction pos, and the freighters can drop the parts directly into the array without docking up and making a million trips in industrials to move the parts to the pos. i'm not even gonna comment on "managing" them, which, i suppose, involves parking the things intelligently, having one and only one pilot, and only fielding it when you have a support fleet to back it up. any ship class should be fun to fly, but since this is a multiplayer game, it can't make every ship class that flies against it not-fun to fly. this is the entirety of "balance" in the game Originally by:** Crimson11 Crimson11: What the hell happened? WarGod: Some breaking occurred, the Alt Key was involved, that's about all we know.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 16:49:00 - [554] Originally by: Chomapuraku any ship class should be fun to fly, but since this is a multiplayer game, it can't make every ship class that flies against it not-fun to fly. this is the entirety of "balance" in the game Yes, but clearly an alliance should just tell their members "if you don't fly a Titan you're useless" and build twenty Titans. Isn't it obvious that only the people who have and spend the most amount of money in EVE should be allowed to play?
aaron 619 Gallente Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:54:00 - [555] Edited by: aaron 619 on 02/05/2008 02:54:26 Yes. the rich own titans and the poor gather in force to kill the titans. its a rabbit hunt.....hehehe. I love to hunt rabbits if you think there invincible then your wrong. , The idea is it should take 70 bills in ships to kill a ship worth 70bills. look at the revy II trailor. two semeticale fleets with titans and MS and dreads.....so the titans go off. kill the support and then the caps duke it out to kill the titan capital ships are the next step after BS, just because you can't afford capital ships then you cry that titans are killing the game because they kill your Small cheap BS. oh boohoo.
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.02 03:36:00 - [556] Originally by: aaron 619 Edited by: aaron 619 on 02/05/2008 02:54:26 Yes. the rich own titans and the poor gather in force to kill the titans. its a rabbit hunt.....hehehe. I love to hunt rabbits if you think there invincible then your wrong. , The idea is it should take 70 bills in ships to kill a ship worth 70bills. look at the revy II trailor. two semeticale fleets with titans and MS and dreads.....so the titans go off. kill the support and then the caps duke it out to kill the titan capital ships are the next step after BS, just because you can't afford capital ships then you cry that titans are killing the game because they kill your Small cheap BS. oh boohoo. you obviously haven't been read this thread, nor have you heard anything through the grapevine about the problem people have with titans right now, so sit down, and i'll tell you a story i was on a fleet op just now where there were two titans being staged. we were defending a station system, caps on both sides were in system, we had good numbers on both sides, we had the titans tackled a couple times, and they weren't double-doomsdaying. in short, there were good fights had, the BS fleet survived because they were doomsday tanked (easy to tank against just one, possible to tank against two, but it gimps your fitting.) in those situations, it's just the small ships that don't have enough HP and the poorly set-up BSes that buy the farm when the titan comes on grid. that's fine, because those that set up intelligently make it out alive now picture you're attacking a station system held by an alliance that can field 7 titans. you can't get your caps in becuase the cyno jammer is up, and it's on a deathstar tower with all the guns manned. the enemy can bring their caps in freely, because they have a bridge network. four of the seven titans are field all at once and the pilots synchronize to warp in at the same time and let off all their doomsdays at once. for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. the only way to take the station is if you have spies to turn off the cyno jammer (metagaming), or the titan pilots slip up such that there's fewer than 2-3 of them on at once (waiting for RL to take them away from the game, which can't be relied on in game balance). the fight basically doesn't happen, because you can't do anything to the sov or the towers themselves without caps, and you can't get the caps in without taking out the cynojammer. the defending alliance can just refuse to fight anywhere except the cynojammer POS (or a bridge pos) and take out the attacking force. what's that you say? stagger the BS fleet? not an option, because you can still fit a mean shredder pos that can take out any lesser fleet, and if the fleet grows large enough to threaten the guns, 2 or 3 of the titans jump in and doomsday apart from the fact that multiple titans in the same fight breaks fleet fight, in general, the DDD itself is a pretty cheap game mechanic. in situations with lag, you have a very slim chance of getting out before the titan hits the DDD, even if you are properly aligned at full speed. in the best of situations, the DDD eliminates any setup from the fight that isn't super-tanked, and multiple titans eliminate everything except cap ships from fleet fights (for the titan's side, anyways. the titan's fleet can warp in behind the DDD and tackle the enemy cap fleet). adding titans to both sides of the fight just turns it into Titans Online, where nobody else has a role in the fight. would you fly in and fight if you knew with relative certainty that you would die before being able to fight? so spare us the e-peen and start thinking about making eve fun for everyone in the fight, rather than just fun for the oldest, richest players.
Leeluvv The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:57:00 - [557] This thread has intrigued me and, as a non-cap pilot, I have a couple of questions: 1. What are the consequences of using a DDD? 2. Is the trade-off between the benefit and the consequence of using one or more DDDs suitably balanced? 3. What would be a better consequence that would still give DDDs the power that they have, but provide a more serious consequence to their use? After a DDD is fired, is something like a cap drain and cap recharge shut-down a valid consequence? Another ship would be needed to cap transfer, as the Titan would be 'dead in the water' having used the DDD. This would provide the bonus of the DDD, but also have a serious consequence for the ability of the Titan to defend itself. i.e. It can't, it would need friendly support to survive. These are just ideas, so comments please... Lee
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:16:00 - [558] I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on...............................
aaron 619 Gallente Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:11:00 - [559] Ok, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. but here are some more nifty points. " Siege then for crying out loud....make it hell for them to do anything with out losing something. Oh, and your battle tactics are flawed, for one, a small bs fleet with a lot of time and a turtle tank can tank any death star. If you need to get lets say the fleet is 50 BS and they are worth together around 6-7 bills, take the isk out of your own rich alliance funds and put it to use to take out that pos. that titan is worth 70-80 bill, and 7 are worth 7x times more. so if it even takes 3 or 4 fleets that have gone back and forth from the staging ground with pre fitted fleet ships, lets say each pilot has 7 ...then you should have no problem ether killing the fleet or the titan for that matter or the cycno jammer. this game is all about risk VS reward. until you realize that you shouldn't be able to take out a 80 bill ship with a 7 bill fleet then you can not be reasoned with and will continue to feel cheated and jealous of alliance's with 7 titans to field when you don't. whether you realize it or not, 7 titans in one place it a vary real risk and I would hate to be flying one. I don't think my gut could haddle the thought of losing something like that.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:27:00 - [560] Edited by: James Lyrus on 02/05/2008 23:28:17 Originally by: Chomapuraku for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. Just because I like a challenge: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0805/onyxtank.JPG [Onyx, DD Tanker] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Kaikka's Modified Photon Scattering Field Warp Disruption Field Generator I Cynosural Field Generator I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender II Core Defence Field Extender II 204kehps vs. EM 609kehps vs. Thermal 376kehps vs. kinetic 220kehps vs. Explosive OK, so it's not a _cheap_ fit - those invulns are 300mil, and I've no idea how much CDFE IIs are offhand. And a full pirate set is also not exactly a trivial amount of cash. But then, compared to the pricetag of the Titan it's tackling, and maybe counter-hotdropping - well, ok, that does need an un-cynojammed system, and no support, since you're going to be very low on EHPs after getting a quad DDD to the face.

Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.05.03 00:51:00 - [561] Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.03 01:47:00 - [562] Edited by: lecrotta on 03/05/2008 01:48:14 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this. READ OP (as it says nothing about jammers). THINK. THEN TROLL No need to nerf the titans then just reduce the range of the ddd to 150km or so, as it solves the problems you listed if you have a good fc.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.03 09:30:00 - [563] Quote: for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. 50mil? You can't even buy a hac for 50mil, what kind of ******** standard is that? A devoter can easilly be made to tank 3 DDs, 4 if you have a fairly cheap lg slave set and possibly up to 5 with a hg set. This is with a t2 fit, no faction or t2 rigs.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:31:00 - [564] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 03/05/2008 01:48:14 Originally by: Angelonico Originally by: lecrotta I love the way ppl claim that multiple titans are unkillable, but then go on to list the other things needed to make them unkillable. Like a active cyno jammer or no hostile capital fleet in system or the other side having titans or the multiple titans needing to be active 23/7 to guard the jammers and on and on and on............................... Read. Think. Then post. Multiple titans in a cynojammed system ontop of the jammer/deathstar are unkillable. Not simply multiple titans. No one disputes this. READ OP (as it says nothing about jammers). THINK. THEN TROLL No need to nerf the titans then just reduce the range of the ddd to 150km or so, as it solves the problems you listed if you have a good fc. That would probably do the rtick. DD woudl still be non fun stuff. But reducing their range woudl be a very good fix already. Sicne would bring back some value to tactical positioning (If you split your sniper fleet in 3 parts for example a single titan cannot kill more than 33% of it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.03 10:38:00 - [565] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: for 50 million isk, what subcap can tank 250k of damage, spread evenly between the four types? if you answered "none", you are correct. 50mil? You can't even buy a hac for 50mil, what kind of ******** standard is that? A devoter can easilly be made to tank 3 DDs, 4 if you have a fairly cheap lg slave set and possibly up to 5 with a hg set. This is with a t2 fit, no faction or t2 rigs. I assumed it was a prize for setting up a quad-dd tanking subcap :)
Self One	Posted - 2008.05.03 20:29:00 - [566] Doomsdays make this game boring. Every alliance has now at least one Titan if not five. What is the point ? There are some pretty good ideas of tactical weapons for titans in this thread but i doubt CCP has any guts about this problem.
Alice Atphosea	Posted - 2008.05.04 07:44:00 - [567] Tanking 4 DD's is irrelevant considering the picture the op linked has seven Titans on it. It doesn't take much of a stretch to think that alliances will continue to build more until HICtors (and all subcapitals) simply aren't a problem anymore.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:06:00 - [568] Originally by: Alice Atphosea Tanking 4 DD's is irrelevant considering the picture the op linked has seven Titans on it. It doesn't take much of a stretch to think that alliances will continue to build more until HICtors (and all subcapitals) simply aren't a problem anymore. Somethign more scary is that certain 3 alliances combine their titan fleets they can start DDing carriers :P
Alice Atphosea	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:06:00 - [569] I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game?
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:31:00 - [570] Originally by: Alice Atphosea I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game? They, like me, are probably waiting to see a fight take place where the fleet attacking the titans doesn't cost less than a tenth of the defending fleet. Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not.

HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:47:00 - [571] Edited by: HydroSan on 05/05/2008 21:47:49 Originally by: TypoNinja Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Again with the "THEY SPENT MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO THEY SHOULD WIN" crap. I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam: Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule? Why should an alliance be able to play on "god mode" by spending a lot of money on one single shiptype? Moon mining and other ways of making money means some alliances can make enough passive income to make a Titan in under two months. Once the heavy lifting of tower setup and BPO purchasing is done you can just keep pumping them out. Titans even allow you to produce most of the materials in empire and jump bridge them up, allowing you to produce more Titans faster. Why should we abandon balance in favour of whoever has the most amount of cash?
XFreedomX	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:20:00 - [572] Doomsday device needs to use ammo at a cost in line with Strategic Bombs.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:52:00 - [573] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 01:53:16 Originally by: HydroSan I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule?. Why should we abandon balance in favor of whoever has the most amount of cash? They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:10:00 - [574] "you have to be even better at it" is pretty much the same as breaking the rule. Its like saying "new players need to be able to accomplish things" and then saying its O.K. because 10000 new players can accomplish something. The matter of scale cannot be avoided and making it harder to achieve the goal in those manners is very much the same thing as removing those options. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:48:00 - [575] Originally by: TypoNinja Originally by: Alice Atphosea I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game? They, like me, are probably waiting to see a fight take place where the fleet attacking the titans doesn't cost less than a tenth of the defending fleet. Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Call me crazy but I see no reason why a game where 3-month constructions (their builds accelerated and fueled by other 3 month constructions built in space acquired over 2 years ago, expanded and defended by two consecutive favorable changes in mechanics) dominate entirely could possibly be entertaining for 30000 people on a sunday evening. So we have the possibility of entertaining approximately 250 Titan pilots and having the worlds greatest geriatric MMO circlejerk or an entire subscriber-base. I'm going to throw out a daring hypothesis: We can run an EvE without doomsdays, and with the extra income from running an actually interesting game throw up a TQ mirror without any changes. People might then see the error of their ways and immediately re-subscribe to your very grandiose vision of shipbuilders online.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:58:00 - [576] Originally by: lecrotta They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space. If you cannot restrain yourself from trolling (ie: continuously spouting "t1 friggie/cruisers" even though the doomsday does not discriminate between a frigate and a T2 sniping battleship) I'm going to have to start reporting your posts. Please remain on topic.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:15:00 - [577] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 05/05/2008 21:47:49 Originally by: TypoNinja Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Again with the "THEY SPENT MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO THEY SHOULD WIN" crap. I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam: Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule? Why should an alliance be able to play on "god mode" by spending a lot of money on one single shiptype? Moon mining and other ways of making money means some alliances can make enough passive income to make a Titan in under two months. Once the heavy lifting of tower setup and BPO purchasing is done you can just keep pumping them out. Titans even allow you to produce most of the materials in empire and jump bridge them up, allowing you to produce more Titans faster. Why should we abandon balance in favour of whoever has the most amount of cash? Ohhhh, somebody's getting bitter, you must have been on the receiving end of a DDD recently. To quote your quote about tactics and treachery beating top of the line mods and fancy ships; ill expand. Tactics are good, and all things being equal better tactics will win the fight. All things being equal. but in war things are pretty much never equal. Good Tactics can help you, but if your out numbered ten to one, they can only help you so far, your ass is still dead meat. Good tactics might help you pull a win out of 2 to 1 odds, or maybe even 3 or 4 to 1 if your enemy is particularly inept and your tactics are particularly good. But at 10 to 1, your pretty ****. No amount of tactical trickery will let my kestrel kill your hyperion, its just not gonna happen. Because, and this is important, throwing more ships and resources into combat than your opponent can is also a tactic, one thats fairly effective, of course your alliance tag is goonswarm you should already be aware of that. The problem your having now is that a Titan and its DDD is the perfect counter tactic to a swarm tactic, the much publicized blob that is so common to eve. To again point to the quote you so kindly provided, tactics have value in eve, and in the case of a multiple titans you need a tactic other than simply forming a bigger blob. 'They spend more money they should win crap' as you put it is only half right, 'they spent more money so they have an advantage' would be the correct form. Because warfare is economic, it always has been and it always will be. You fight over territory so you can control the resources in that territory. Because those resources let you continue to fight, and if you take all of your opponents territory they cant afford to replace losses so then you've won. Eve it self is even more economic based, all the draws for pilots in 0.0 space are the chance to make obscene amounts of isk to balance out the risk of 0.0. If I spent 100 mill on a battleship should I expect to be able to fly up to a POS that cost a billion to set up and simply out shoot it? Of course not, that'd be ***** stupid, a good death star POS with gunners can rip the hell out of entire fleets. So why would you expect a different out come just because we upped the scale of the encounter?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:43:00 - [578] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: lecrotta They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space. If you cannot restrain yourself from trolling (ie: continuously spouting "t1 friggie/cruisers" even though the doomsday does not discriminate between a frigate and a T2 sniping battleship) I'm going to have to start reporting your posts. Please remain on topic. Did you only read those 2 words and ignore the rest cos you cannot answer them?. Report me if you must but i think they will laugh at you cos your the one spouting the same troll over and over while ignoring ppls solutions. I suppose reporting me instead of answering me is your way so i will forgive you for it, as going str8 for a meta solution has always been your kinds style. But the fact remains that a 150km DDD would allow snipers to take down a jammer outside the range of a DDD (if positioned correctly) thus allowing capital assets into a system. Not only that but also giving them opportunities to help take down a titan outside of DDD range as well. The only ships that would find it hard or near imposable to kill a titan would be "friggie and cruisers" blob spams. Lets face it if the DDD is removed what would be the point of flying a 200+ mil t2 sniper ship?...i can fly 50 T1 cruisers for the same cost in isk and be considerably more effective in them than in a single t2 BS. It will stop being eve online at that point and become zerg online instead hhmmm i wonder what alliance is renowned for that type of warfare.....
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:26:00 - [579] Originally by: lecrotta words Look at how stupid you are. 50 t1 cruisers will never be as effective as 50 battleships in dps or otherwise. Pilots are pilots, they arn't a resource that can be magically increased just because a certain ship is cheaper. A pilot can bring one ship OR another one. A single pilot cannot bring 50 t1 cruisers and use them in combat at the same time. The titans only real vunerability is to hostile caps specificly dreads. When dreads cannot be deployed against the titan, the titan can DD with impunity without worrying about being destroyed, 150km dd or 350km dd it wont matter. If you want zergs to be reduced in this game you have to nerf or remove things that encourage zerging. For instance, cyno jammer HP is so increadably high you need a large BS gang to have a chance at taking one out without taking significant losses. To take out a titan you need more caps on the field than your enemy, and a larger support fleet backing that up to keep the titan pinned down. Reduce blobs and zerging my ass. CCP has not added anything to this game that accomplishes this, only things that encourage it. --
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:46:00 - [580] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: lecrotta words Look at how stupid you are. 50 t1 cruisers will never be as effective as 50 battleships in dps or otherwise. Pilots are pilots, they arn't a resource that can be magically increased just because a certain ship is cheaper. A pilot can bring one ship OR another one. A single pilot cannot bring 50 t1 cruisers and use them in combat at the same time. The titans only real vunerability is to hostile caps specificly dreads. When dreads cannot be deployed against the titan, the titan can DD with impunity without worrying about being destroyed, 150km dd or 350km dd it wont matter. If you want zergs to be reduced in this game you have to nerf or remove things that encourage zerging. For instance, cyno jammer HP is so increadably high you need a large BS gang to have a chance at taking one out without taking significant losses. To take out a titan you need more caps on the field than your enemy, and a larger support fleet backing that up to keep the titan pinned down. Reduce blobs and zerging my ass. CCP has not added anything to this game that accomplishes this, only things that encourage it. I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be.

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:40:00 - [581] Originally by: lecrotta Did you only read those 2 words and ignore the rest cos you cannot answer them?. Report me if you must but i think they will laugh at you cos your the one spouting the same troll over and over while ignoring ppls solutions. I suppose reporting me instead of answering me is your way so i will forgive you for it, as going str8 for a meta solution has always been your kinds style. But the fact remains that a 150km DDD would allow snipers to take down a jammer outside the range of a DDD (if positioned correctly) thus allowing capital assets into a system. Not only that but also giving them opportunities to help take down a titan outside of DDD range as well. And you have yet to give a good reason why not apart from saying that titans can warp in and blow the DDD (an easily avoidable tactic tbh and hardly proof the ship is broken) in fact that proves the titan is not broken as it need tactics and timing to gain any kills or be effective. The only ships that would find it hard or near imposable to kill a titan would be "friggie and cruisers" blob spams. Lets face it if the DDD is removed what would be the point of flying a 200+ mil t2 sniper ship?...i can fly 50 T1 cruisers for the same cost in isk and be considerably more effective in them than in a single t2 BS. It will stop being eve online at that point and become zerg online instead hhmmm i wonder what alliance is renowned for that type of warfare..... If T1 "friggie + cruiser" swarm style warfare now has a counter (the titans DDD) then i suggest you try to use *"strategy, not swarming* - Tactics. Experience and treachery" instead of claiming that the game is broken just cos you cannot be bothered. Defeating multiple titans should be a thrilling and exciting in game tactical challenge to a commander and pvper not a reason to go crying to ccp (again) for another nerf. Originally by:** Draygo Korvan Look at how stupid i am. I totally fail to understand your point about a pilot being able to spam fifty t1 cruisers into a system for the price of one t2 BS. I am so moronic that i did not realize that you were talking about each pilot being able to bring 50 cruisers one at a time with 300 or so of his buddies and actualy thought you meant him bringing fifty himself all at the same time. Im such a fool for thinking that a 150km ddd is the same as a 250 or 350km ddd as my idea of combat seems to be sitting still in range and f1-f8 until he pops or i do. Totally ignoring the fact that a ddd at 150km max range a sniper can hit the titan safely but will also need to be aligned just in case of a warp in. I have no idea about the difference between zerging (ie: spamming low value ships over and over to achieve a objective) and large scale fleet ops (ie: capitals and other expensive asset to kill high value assets/ achieve objectives. Just to summerise i am clueless. Fixed.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:45:00 - [582] Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers or to a hostile capital fleet.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:06:00 - [583] Originally by: TypoNinja 'They spend more money they should win crap' as you put it is only half right, 'they spent more money so they have an advantage' would be the correct form And the question that is being answered is not "should they have an advantage?" the question that is being answered is "how much of an advantage should they have?". The answer is "less than they do now"
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 16:46:00 - [584] Originally by: lecrotta Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers but also to a hostile capital fleet. It becomes a cat and mouse game of "dodge the dictor swarm" as your enemy sends a two dozen interdictors at your fleet, attempting to bubble your battleships so they can warp at point blank and quad-DD them. Hey guys, we need to be on Grid X at X Time with that hostile POS because it's the only way to destroy the jammer/take down the tower itself! Even assuming a 150km nerf, all it would mean is more Titans being produced: four on the tower so you're REQUIRED to hit out to T2 sniper ranges, and then have your remaining eight off grid ready to warp to the dictors when they get ten bubbles up on the battleships. In the end you fail at sieging the tower because all your enemy does it continuously try to one-shot your entire fleet.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 16:47:00 - [585] Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:20:00 - [586] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 19:31:32 Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: lecrotta Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers but also to a hostile capital fleet. It becomes a cat and mouse game of "dodge the dictor swarm" as your enemy sends a two dozen interdictors at your fleet, attempting to bubble your battleships so they can warp at point blank and quad-DD them. Hey guys, we need to be on Grid X at X Time with that hostile POS because it's the only way to destroy the jammer/take down the tower itself! Even assuming a 150km nerf, all it would mean is more Titans being produced: four on the tower so you're REQUIRED to hit out to T2 sniper ranges, and then have your remaining eight off grid ready to warp to the dictors when they get ten bubbles up on the battleships. In the end you fail at sieging the tower because all your enemy does it continuously try to one-shot your entire fleet. A game of cat and mouse??..thats like a game of tactical maneuvering, of having spies listening in on the movements of said titans or tacklers?. Plus its only the jammer that needs to be taken down by BS only as after that you can use capitals and i doubt that many titan pilots will wish to try one shotting your ships with a capital/dread fleet around. Plus the fact that dictoring your fleet, warping in a titan and popping a DDD can be done with 1, 2 or 3 titans having 12 or more makes no difference. So now we have gone from a omg wtf unkillable/unbeatable group of 12 titans, to a bunch of 12 titans that need your guys not only to be tackled but if they miss a tackle are very much out of position and vulnerable to your fleet (although im not sure why 4 on the jammer are needed or how you think that those 4 can make a sniper fleet come in at t2 ranges on a 3d grid). Now maybe in the future when alliances have 20+ titans things may need to be looked at in regards to limiting the number of DDD blasts per grid or system or considering the way ppl nap it may even be a issue now but the fact is that removing the DDD dmg totaly is a huge mistake.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:26:00 - [587] Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Stopable with on grid bubbles maybe, 150km range is where bubbles will pull you out of warp, so a warping in titan with an optimum defensive bubble placement will still be in dd range of your fleet. However a fleet of battleships alone will not kill a titan with a pilot operating it. So saying a titan is vunerable to a fleet of battleships is simply not true. Its only vunerable if caps hostile to the titan can be deployed against that titan. Saying they would be vunerable at 150km is a misnomer because you cant stop the titan from getting within that range in the first place right out of warp. For the range reduction to work it would have to be lower than the maximum bubble pull range, like 60km or 30km. Note when I use the word vunerable, I mean at risk to be destroyed by. Shrikes titan in 9-9 was attacked by a huge mixed fleet that grew to around 250 pilots or greater, yet they could not break the titans tank until dreads loaded grid and entered siege. So no, a titan is not vunerable to a support fleet. With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:41:00 - [588] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Stopable with on grid bubbles maybe, 150km range is where bubbles will pull you out of warp, so a warping in titan with an optimum defensive bubble placement will still be in dd range of your fleet. However a fleet of battleships alone will not kill a titan with a pilot operating it. So saying a titan is vunerable to a fleet of battleships is simply not true. Its only vunerable if caps hostile to the titan can be deployed against that titan. Saying they would be vunerable at 150km is a misnomer because you cant stop the titan from getting within that range in the first place right out of warp. For the range reduction to work it would have to be lower than the maximum bubble pull range, like 60km or 30km. Note when I use the word vunerable, I mean at risk to be destroyed by. Shrikes titan in 9-9 was attacked by a huge mixed fleet that grew to around 250 pilots or greater, yet they could not break the titans tank until dreads loaded grid and entered siege. So no, a titan is not vunerable to a support fleet. With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range. Well at least your actually thinking of ways to kill it after a range reduction instead of repeating a blinkered rant like others. And im sure a 250 man or larger support/BS fleet can break the tank of a titan if you do not bring shuttles or noob ships and the like, but tbh that does not matter as if the jammer is hit instead of the titan then your caps can join the fun.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:51:00 - [589] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/05/2008 19:56:00 Originally by: Traeon DD's were never needed in the first place, and CCP apparently counted on them being so rare and hard to build that they'd never become overpowered. Than that's an epic failure. Who else if not CCP has the numbers at hand to plan such an important implementation? I mean.. how hard can it be: - 80 Trillion ISK in circulation - Easily more than a handful of players who alone can afford 60 bil in ship costs. Yeah, titans could indeed be counted on to be rare.. How about this: 150bil building costs Additional maintenance costs. Much like a POS. Probably 1bil per month ? Now we're talking serious spaceship business! Of course in return titans could retain most of their powerful advantages and should also receive a (much needed) hitpoint boost.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:56:00 - [590] Originally by: lecrotta A game of cat and mouse??..thats like a game of tactical maneuvering, of having spies listening in on the movements of said titans or tacklers?. Plus its only the jammer that needs to be taken down by BS only as after that you can use capitals and i doubt that many titan pilots will wish to try one shotting your ships with a capital/dread fleet around. Separate TS channel and cyno jammers. Quote: Plus the fact that dictoring your fleet, warping in a titan and popping a DDD can be done with 1, 2 or 3 titans having 12 or more makes no difference. So now we have gone from a omg wtf unkillable/unbeatable group of 12 titans, to a bunch of 12 titans that need your guys not only to be tackled but if they miss a tackle are very much out of position and vulnerable to your fleet (although im not sure why 4 on the jammer are needed or how you think that those 4 can make a sniper fleet come in at t2 ranges on a 3d grid). Now maybe in the future when alliances have 20+ titans things may need to be looked at in regards to limiting the number of DDD blasts per grid or system or considering the way ppl nap it may even be a issue now but the fact is that removing the DDD dmg totaly is a huge mistake. BoB has 12. A month ago they had 8. Three months ago they had 5. Six months from now they will have 16-17. How many Press-A-Button-And-One-Shot-Your-Enemy ships do you need for before you consider it to be broken?

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 20:16:00 - [591] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 20:21:36 Originally by: HydroSan Titans were designed as anti-blob ships. The problem with "anti-blob" is that "blobs" are not discriminated against according to their numbers. A Titan can take out a group of T2 snipers. It can take out a lone frigate. It can take out a roaming HAC gang. It has turned from anti-blob into anti-warfare, and whoever doesn't have at least four has absolutely no chance in surviving in 0.0. I did not say they were not a problem in fact ive said again and again they need changing but to remove them instead of reducing them would be a huge mistake. Like i have already said removing the DDD would make BS in large fleet ops a pointless and overly expensive ship as i along with 2 or 300 of my buddies could buy 50 t1 cruisers for the same price and just keep spamming fleets into a system until we wear down the enemy. Nothing can and nothing will ever really stop ppl from blobbing but the titan and a 150km ddd and maybe limiting the amount of DDD fired per grid per day/hour will force ppl to bring there own capitals, super capitals and BS if they want to take space, instead of spamming t1 friggie and cruiser crap (ie: zerging).
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:48:00 - [592] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 06/05/2008 21:51:30 Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 06/05/2008 21:49:23 Originally by: lecrotta Well at least your actually thinking of ways to kill it after a range reduction instead of repeating a blinkered rant like others. And im sure a 250 man or larger support/BS fleet can break the tank of a titan if you do not bring shuttles or noob ships and the like, but tbh that does not matter as if the jammer is hit instead of the titan then your caps can join the fun. I think the DD is a problem yes. But I dont think it is the biggest problem. The biggest problem lies with the cyno jammer module. Its massive amount of HP, and low anchoring requirements dictates that a large fleet must spend a long time hammering at it to take it down, if there are multiple titans defending, the attacking fleet has to constantly warp in and out, which would make it take more than 10x as long to actually take it down (Note it takes roughly 25 seconds to warp a short distance while aligned then you have to count the seconds it takes to align back to warp in for another try, you end up spending a minute or more warping around while spending 10 seconds or so actually shooting. Even if you magically avoid all bubbles to prevent from getting dd'). A more immediate solution is to change jump bridges to function like system gates. Anything that can normally go through a system gate (includes frieghters) can use the jump gate. This makes it more difficult to put friendly caps in a friendly system without giving hostiles a chance to sneak a few of their own in (you know the strategy and thinking thing you like ranting about). Also, its very hard to keep a titan tackled at a fully armed and gunned faction pos. The gunners will just pick off your unreppable hic's and clean any dictors off. It just takes too long to take down the cynojammer with a reasonably sized fleet. And if you are dealing with more than a few titans (like 8) it becomes impossible to kill the cynojammer without some cap support to ward off the titans. ex. even goonfleet's titan dd'd bobs cynojammer attacking bs swarm, even though bob took down the jammer the titan got out unharmed. Another solution to the cyno-jammer + titan defense combo is to change the system requirements of the cynojammer to require all adjacent systems to have at least sov 1. This would create an automatic 'front line' between all alliances, allowing territory to change more easily along those lines, but give the defender a huge advantage behind those border systems. (As a side effect it will be more costly to maintain your space, so maybe we will see some new faces in 0.0). apparently the syn. for try that starts with a c and ends with a rack is wordfiltered.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:22:00 - [593] Originally by: Draygo Korvan With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range. Hate to be a stickler for details, but you're thinking two-dimensionally and are wrong. You'd need a lot of interdictors to defend from even a 130km range Doomsday in that fashion. You can slice and dice it and play with the range, strong AoE is terrible and I'm happy to prove that if somebody really has trouble believing it.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:33:00 - [594] Originally by: lecrotta Spying is just one option as learning how to use a scanner properly is also a option as unless interdictors and titans can warp cloaked they will always be scanned long before they land giving a aligned fleet plenty of time to warp out. Hey you suck at fighting titans and are giving advice, nice. Titans are spotted leaving their initial PoS , because systems with titan-scale warfare (assuming you know, we're not talking about jump-ins which is where most doomsdaying totally prevents warfare in the first place) suffer minute-long lag. The time to enter warp, travel through a system and exit warp is unininhibited by lag though - so while a scanner is unable to actually function and an overview won't update, a Titan can land and Doomsday without issues. But of course, that's only a tiny problem compared to how dominating they are at controlling stargates or control towers - in one case, attackers are stuck in 100km+ worth of anchorable and overlapping bubbles, in the other case Titans don't need to warp to Doomsday and better yet face no risk at all. But hey, at least your amazing advice straight from 2004 tells us how NOT to avoid getting DDed under optimal conditions, away from PoSes or jump-ins. Nevermind that people have developed intelligence-gathering methods, relay structures and ways to compensate for latency far superior to what you're even imagining. You really are an expert and should tell us more.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:50:00 - [595] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 22:54:16 Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg lag blah blah lag blah blah I am not interested in getting into a argument that relies on the fickle lag gods working totally in your favor and utterly against your enemy to give it credibility. In fact im not interested in anything anybody has to say on tactical issues if the invoke lag as anything other than a constant tactical issue that should alway be taken into account but not as a card blanch for one side or another.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:51:00 - [596] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance. That IS the game balance, thats how wars work, in just about any game, and real life. You spend more money to either; field a bigger force than your defender can, or a better equipped force. Or perhaps even both. If an attacker insists on moving against a defender with both a smaller force, AND a poorly equipped force, then baring a cluster** from the defenders, they will win. That is expected behaviour, that is game balance. If it was possible to kill a titan with a battleship fleet worth less than a tenth of its cost, then you'd have a game balance problem. Look heres some easy math for you. 4x titans at a total of 200 billion isk before fittings. 2,000 x battleships at 200 billion isk. Now if you dont do something stupid like warp everybody into the titans all at once its pretty easy to deal with this problem from an even footing. Lets go with the most basic of tatics, holding a reserve force. Send in your first 250 battleships, start wailing away at the cyno jammer, you'll have it down in short order. 2x titans DDD to save the cynojammer any BS not uber tanked dies, everybody else is probably in structure, POS cleans up the rest. Send in next 250 BS, Same things happens. Send in thrid group, titans cant DDD anymore, enemy support fleet shows up. use group three to engage the titans and support fleet. If the titans didn't book it as soon as their DDD was used up, tackle them. Send in group four, rip the ** out of the cyno jammer, and start hot dropping dreadnoughts in to polish off the tower, if enemy caps in the area kill them too. Group four turns its attention to enemy support fleet and helps group three kick ass. (if you find your self short of warm bodies, split group three as needed to keep the enemy support occupied while you kill the jammer.) So with the most basic of tactics it only took me 100 billion isk, and I manged to take the field against better than two to one odds, probably more like 3 to one. For that, what I accomplished was amazing, I attacked a prepared enemy defensives position that was setup to ambush me, somewhere where the odds should have easily been in the defenders favour. Of course nobody fights like that, instead a blob costing 10-20 billion in total is sent in, and then people whine on the forums about how broken a titan is.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 23:21:00 - [597] Originally by: TypoNinja only took me 100 billion isk ... per day, per system. That's totally not imbalanced what so ever.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Gates of nim	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:32:00 - [598] The threat scalation should not be so high, you shouldn't pay double for doubling your effectiveness. You should pay double for a 50% or 30% increment. If not, the stablished power can not be defeated. Ever. You have done your job in an early time and now you can just sit there and see how others dye forever. Thats not fun. Thats not challenging. Thats not the ccp policy, you should be allowed to destroy them somehow with more pilots and a good plan. But not a plan in wich you need scalating numbers to thousands against singles. Furthermore that thousands creates lag and lag is good for titans and the task to get more and more people as 5 or six titans are the fleet to beat becomes impossible. So no, its not balanced. Being epic to destroy a titan its good when there are few of them, but now that they are becoming more and more common it's not the right thing for the game.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:16:00 - [599] Originally by: TypoNinja Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance. That IS the game balance, thats how wars work, in just about any game, and real life. You spend more money to either; field a bigger force than your defender can, or a better equipped force. Or perhaps even both. If an attacker insists on moving against a defender with both a smaller force, AND a poorly equipped force, then baring a cluster** from the defenders, they will win. That is expected behaviour, that is game balance. If it was possible to kill a titan with a battleship fleet worth less than a tenth of its cost, then you'd have a game balance problem. Look heres some easy math for you. 4x titans at a total of 200 billion isk before fittings. 2,000 x battleships at 200 billion isk. Now if you dont do something stupid like warp everybody into the titans all at once its pretty easy to deal with this problem from an even footing. Lets go with the most basic of tatics, holding a reserve force. Send in your first 250 battleships, start wailing away at the cyno jammer, you'll have it down in short order. 2x titans DDD to save the cynojammer any BS not uber tanked dies, everybody else is probably in structure, POS cleans up the rest. Send in next 250 BS, Same things happens. Send in thrid group, titans cant DDD anymore, enemy support fleet shows up. use group three to engage the titans and support fleet. If the titans didn't book it as soon as their DDD was used up, tackle them. Send in group four, rip the ** out of the cyno jammer, and start hot dropping dreadnoughts in to polish off the tower, if enemy caps in the area kill them too. Group four turns its attention to enemy support fleet and helps group three kick ass. (if you find your self short of warm bodies, split group three as needed to keep the enemy support occupied while you kill the jammer.) So with the most basic of tactics it only took me 100 billion isk, and I manged to take the field against better than two to one odds, probably more like 3 to one. For that, what I accomplished was amazing, I attacked a prepared enemy defensives position that was setup to ambush me, somewhere where the odds should have easily been in the defenders favour. Of course nobody fights like that, instead a blob costing 10-20 billion in total is sent in, and then people whine on the forums about how broken a titan is. and where in hell you get 2000 BS pilots ready to fly at same time? Where in hell you get a node that can resist multiple jump ins of 200 + ships? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
ChalSto LOCKDOWN.	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:07:00 - [600] You only asked for tactics and a strategy, not for technical issues. In this case he answered your question Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb

Maraleith Gallente The Culture Holding Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:31:00 - [601] Personally, I would INCREASE the doomsday effect, shorten the warning time to 10 seconds but REDUCE the area of effect. That is, if you are within 30km, it hits you and you're in anything less than a capital ship; you're dead. That way it becomes a very powerful weapon but it a very vulnerable ship. Multiple doomsdays are horrifically lethal but they do not make battleship POS attacks impossible. Yes, the doomsday is lethal but you stand a chance of avoiding it.
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:40:00 - [602] Originally by: ChalSto You only asked for tactics and a strategy, not for technical issues. In this case he answered your question So it's okay to suggest an impossible strategy because it works on paper? What if I hired mercenaries to hunt down all the titan pilots in the game? That would solve the problem pretty well. Or, even better, I could swarm the titans with 10000 noob ships sporting civilian guns in a never ending wave of destruction. Wouldn't cost me a dime, and it'd put the hurt on them, no question. Let's be reasonable, please. If there is no plausible counter given current game mechanics, maybe, just maybe, there is a hint of imbalance. Furthermore, I don't see why people point to the cost as justification for anything. A BS costs about 200 times more than a frigate, but it doesn't take 200 frigates to take down a BS. A well organized group of 10 frigates can take down a lone battleship with relative ease. A HAC is easily about 10 times to cost of its t1 counterpart, but it doesn't do 10x the damage, tank 10x damage, or go 10x as fast, and that's the way it should be. . . .
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.08 14:27:00 - [603] Originally by: Maraleith Personally, I would INCREASE the doomsday effect, shorten the warning time to 10 seconds but REDUCE the area of effect. That is, if you are within 30km, it hits you and you're in anything less than a capital ship; you're dead. That way it becomes a very powerful weapon but it a very vulnerable ship. Multiple doomsdays are horrifically lethal but they do not make battleship POS attacks impossible. Yes, the doomsday is lethal but you stand a chance of avoiding it. At 30km i think every ship in the game fitted for range could avoid it making it worthless but at 100-150km it would still be a real threat to clueless morons but also provide tactical solutions for both sides.
Malza koth	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:26:00 - [604] posted in another thread keep DD the way it is, but limit its use by requiring that the module have to be replaced after every 5 uses and in order to replace them the ship has to be docked for 3-4 weeks at one of those arrays where they are built. 1. pilots will think before using the dd 2. continual maintenance costs may make the overall costs of the ship too high for some 3. the number of available ships would be reduced as some of the ships will always be in docks. 4. capital ship arrays (the place where they are built-whatever its called) become even better targets as it would be safe to assume there is always a titan either under maintenance or being built. 5. also while a titan is under maintenance the facility can't be used to build new ones.
Avaleric Amarr Knights Templar Inc	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:49:00 - [605] Edited by: Avaleric on 08/05/2008 19:49:19 Change design completely: Give larger ships not massively larger weapons, but more weapon hardpoints. So with a Titan u might get a hundred turrets, where u could place all from small to very large guns/launchers, making them mobile battlestatations. Trickle this downwards through the ship classes, and u get a lot of interesting tactical variables to have fun with... - Ignorance is bliss...
Dalseta Volitare	Posted - 2008.05.08 21:21:00 - [606] Why not simple make titans loose their invunerability field while DDD'ing? That is to say a titans DDD damages it as much as it does all other ships around it. That way if you want to setoff 8 DD's at the same time you will heavily damage all your titans?
fred red Minmatar Minmatar Black Op's	Posted - 2008.05.08 21:40:00 - [607] probably a bad idea, and having never flown or even encountered a titan it is not like i speak with great knowledge of titans. From my understanding a DD will apply the same damage weather the titan is at the edge of the grid or in the centre of it. also i believe the idea of the DD is as an anti blob device. well here is my idea as it is a AOE weapon why isn't it made to have a spherical AOE with dissipative effect producing high damage at the centre of the blast and next to none at it's maximum range. The effect i see this as having is that titans + DD will be forced to be front line weapons and also be placed in a position of risk, making them more of a tactical strike rather than a free for all killer, this would also make them catchable as a posed to being warped in 250km away DD'ing and warping straight out as i belive is the current tactic. this probably won't solve group titans Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.08 21:42:00 - [608] Originally by: Dalseta Volitare Why not simple make titans loose their invunerability field while DDD'ing? That is to say a titans DDD damages it as much as it does all other ships around it. That way if you want to setoff 8 DD's at the same time you will heavily damage all your titans? lol you would need liek 40 titans to hurt another titan significantly. Titans are no danger to capital ships and absolute death to sub capitals. this is a disparity that must go away. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.08 23:06:00 - [609] Edited by: Doc Iridium on 08/05/2008 23:08:32 Don't remove the doomsday, modify it to be something like a Heavy Interdictor field by allowing the option of putting a script in them. If fired as an AE weapon (no script), only one activation per grid per 10 minutes. EDIT no matter how many titans in a grid, only 1 DDD per 10 minutes - not 10 minutes per ship If fired as a direct-fire weapon, much higher damage, but single target, and _cannot_ miss. Like a nos or neut. This approach would both allow the titan to smack down fleets of low hp ships, keep the skies clear of drones and fighters, and be a very credible threat with high dps to individual ships. King of Battle, anyone? Yes, multiple titans focusing doomsdays in direct fire mode will be nasty. Balancing would have to be considered. Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot!
Terios Corvalis HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:15:00 - [610] Edited by: Terios Corvalis on 09/05/2008 15:17:51 Heavy dictors should get 20% resistance per skill level against DD devices as a role bonus... That would make things much more interesting for sure!

Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:24:00 - [611] Can you guys stop the whining? It's getting boring and stupid. Nerf Titans from DD'ing, remove DD's full stop, stop BoB from having more Titans, nerf BoB, bla bla bla. Now let's say this isn't about BoB or whoever and it's simply about attention seeking. Titans are nerfed more than they are and they become obsolete. Then motherships will be next because after Titans they're the most powerful ships in EvE. Then carriers followed by Dreads. Then BS's because they're overpowered. They are followed by Battlecruisers. Cruisers are next. Frigates follow them and last we're all flying noob ships. Because it takes noob ships forever to take poses down poses are removed and there is no more Sov. All skill books are removed from the game because everything over a noob frigate **es Goons and other whiners off and where do we end up? We end up with EVERYONE leaving EVE and playing upcoming games because the only people who like noob frigate blobs are Goons. Then blobs get nerfed which is followed by CCP getting a total and utter nerf right down to bankruptcy, all thanks to the immense ridiculous and childish whining. I can't build a Titan nerf them!!1whine! My fleet got DD'd and now we're broke and can't hold our space anymore because we never were able to hold it in the first place!11!losers! Nerf Titans because they're so easy to train for and build that everyone in EvE has at least 5 of these things!1!give-me-attention-please! Nerf Titans because this isn't cap ship online and we should all be flying noob ships anyway!!1stfu-leave-EVE-!1! Nerf EVEYRYTHING because I think my voice carries more weight than everyone elses as I lack attention and am too childish to admit I'm just posting here because my parents never loved me and any attention is better than none!!www.whineaboutnothing.com1 Have I missed anything and anyone whining about a game they can leave? Now please stop these extremely childish whine and cry threads about nothing. If you don't like the game leave and don't come back, all the little children complaining about everything just isn't going to get things done the way you want them to and you will be resisted fiercely. Las call for the nerf whine train departing on platform STFU. All those attention *s can board the train leaving for WoW now. Please have your complaint at hand while boarding and do leave your luggage behind at the counter 'can I have your stuff?'. Thank you very much and kthxbye. I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.**
Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:29:00 - [612] Originally by: TypoNinja You spend more money to either; field a bigger force than your defender can, or a better equipped force. Or perhaps even both. How dare you field more ships than the defender? How dare you have more money? How dare you be a better pvp force? How dare you take space from people whose only ability is to fill forums with thread after thread of how much ships that totally destroyed them need to be nerfed? That's not what EVE is about. EVE is about sitting around a campfire singing songs, holding hands, hugging a tree or two and being happy in our communiouns. There is no violence in EVE, there's no fighting and there's no politics. There is only happy, happy, kissy, kissy. Campfires are overpowered, they need to be nerfed. I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.
BiggestT	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:50:00 - [613] Originally by: Mysdora So what would be a good solution to this problem? Perhaps a new ship class / module that works a bit like heavy interdictors, except the bubble blocks 75% of doomsday damage of one type, and you use scripts to switch types? Or maybe instead of per-titan DD cooldown, you could have a per-grid DD cooldown so that you can't blast multiple DDs one after the other on the same grid. Ahhh insta primary??! not a good idea.. I reckon they shld bring in some field generator for hictors that produces an invulnerableshield bubble that is like pos, friends can hide in it etc and cant shoot in/out of.. while active ship cant move fro cycle plus 5 minute penalty "petrified" time, cant use weapons, etc.It uses like clathrates or something and cant hold much..say only 10mins worth.. Sure itd be superpowerful, but it wont excactly destroy the world..Cant do anything by itself, and wont be a huge advantage for roaming gangs etc. Would need to be looked into for tanking missions with gangs etc, coz that cdl be overpowered..
BiggestT	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:52:00 - [614] Originally by: TypoNinja Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Send in group four, rip the **** out of the cyno jammer, and start hot dropping dreadnoughts in to polish off the tower, if enemy caps in the area kill them too. Group four turns its attention to enemy support fleet and helps group three kick ass. LOL at ignorance, ur talking bout 2000 bs's then suddenly u have some dreads to kick around with? FAIL
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:59:00 - [615] Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 09/05/2008 16:01:18 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 09/05/2008 15:59:59 I'd nerf only multiple DDs. You can explain it with some pseudoscience like DD creating some subspace anomalies or something. Subspace anomaly remains there for 30 minutes gradually fading out (becoming weaker). If another DD is fired, the titan using it may (but may not) get more or less painful side effects of subspace backslash effect (pseudoscience blablabla) like; -cap reset to zero -modules heat-damaged -modules permanently destroyed -hull damage Fourth or fifth titan shooting in the same place within 15 minutes would risk up to self destruction. But loosing capacitor for jump-out, loosing or disabling all those multi-billion worth officer modules would put it in potential trouble and misery too. Same racial kind of DD would make less risk then a different type - so firing 2 avatars is less pain for the second avatar then firing an avatar and then leviathan. That way tanking a fleet against specific race of titan is a more reasonable option even against an alliance with multiple different ones. This would allow some kind of tactically tricky counter to DD by using another DD a minute before :) (and then moving the BS fleet to the grid). This would also make fights against alliances with multiple titans more feasible and exciting. ("attack now! I know you're all on structure, but he may have resistance mods down!" rather then the current "run! another DD on the way!")
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.09 16:25:00 - [616] Originally by: Knoetje Can you guys stop the whining? It's getting boring and stupid. Nerf Titans from DD'ing, remove DD's full stop, stop BoB from having more Titans, nerf BoB, bla bla bla. Now let's say this isn't about BoB or whoever and it's simply about attention seeking. Titans are nerfed more than they are and they become obsolete. Then motherships will be next because after Titans they're the most powerful ships in EvE. Then carriers followed by Dreads. Then BS's because they're overpowered. They are followed by Battlecruisers. Cruisers are next. Frigates follow them and last we're all flying noob ships. Because it takes noob ships forever to take poses down poses are removed and there is no more Sov. All skill books are removed from the game because everything over a noob frigate **es Goons and other whiners off and where do we end up? We end up with EVERYONE leaving EVE and playing upcoming games because the only people who like noob frigate blobs are Goons. Then blobs get nerfed which is followed by CCP getting a total and utter nerf right down to bankruptcy, all thanks to the immense ridiculous and childish whining. I can't build a Titan nerf them!!1whine! My fleet got DD'd and now we're broke and can't hold our space anymore because we never were able to hold it in the first place!11!losers! Nerf Titans because they're so easy to train for and build that everyone in EvE has at least 5 of these things!1!give-me-attention-please! Nerf Titans because this isn't cap ship online and we should all be flying noob ships anyway!!1stfu-leave-EVE-!1! Nerf EVEYRYTHING because I think my voice carries more weight than everyone elses as I lack attention and am too childish to admit I'm just posting here because my parents never loved me and any attention is better than none!!www.whineaboutnothing.com1 Have I missed anything and anyone whining about a game they can leave? Now please stop these extremely childish whine and cry threads about nothing. If you don't like the game leave and don't come back, all the little children complaining about everything just isn't going to get things done the way you want them to and you will be resisted fiercely. Las call for the nerf whine train departing on platform STFU. All those attention ***s can board the train leaving for WoW now. Please have your complaint at hand while boarding and do leave your luggage behind at the counter 'can I have your stuff?'. Thank you very much and kthxbye. You can use your onw logic on rever se and then its ok for CCP to adda new ship that blow up all ships and statiosn of your enemy in game with a single button press. And it woudl be ok, because if you nerfe them then its tiem to nerf titans, the n motherships then... SO STFU specially if you are unable even to build a decent argumentation. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:15:00 - [617] Originally by: Kagura Nikon You can use your onw logic on rever se and then its ok for CCP to adda new ship that blow up all ships and statiosn of your enemy in game with a single button press. And it woudl be ok, because if you nerfe them then its tiem to nerf titans, the n motherships then... SO STFU specially if you are unable even to build a decent argumentation. There is one? If so please show us where. If it's Titans field Dreads and Carriers. Can't field them? Leave 0 until you can. The stupid mentality of "nerf blobs because I got blobbed by a bigger blob" is dumb. What needs to be nerfed is the ability to endlessly whine and whine about absolutely everything. I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.09 21:13:00 - [618] Originally by: Knoetje Can you guys stop the whining? It's getting boring and stupid. Nerf Titans from DD'ing, remove DD's full stop, stop BoB from having more Titans, nerf BoB, bla bla bla. Now let's say this isn't about BoB or whoever and it's simply about attention seeking. Titans are nerfed more than they are and they become obsolete. Then motherships will be next because after Titans they're the most powerful ships in EvE. Then carriers followed by Dreads. Then BS's because they're overpowered. They are followed by Battlecruisers. Cruisers are next. Frigates follow them and last we're all flying noob ships. Because it takes noob ships forever to take poses down poses are removed and there is no more Sov. All skill books are removed from the game because everything over a noob frigate **es Goons and other whiners off and where do we end up? We end up with EVERYONE leaving EVE and playing upcoming games because the only people who like noob frigate blobs are Goons. Then blobs get nerfed which is followed by CCP getting a total and utter nerf right down to bankruptcy, all thanks to the immense ridiculous and childish whining. I can't build a Titan nerf them!!1whine! My fleet got DD'd and now we're broke and can't hold our space anymore because we never were able to hold it in the first place!11!losers! Nerf Titans because they're so easy to train for and build that everyone in EvE has at least 5 of these things!1!give-me-attention-please! Nerf Titans because this isn't cap ship online and we should all be flying noob ships anyway!!1stfu-leave-EVE-!1! Nerf EVEYRYTHING because I think my voice carries more weight than everyone elses as I lack attention and am too childish to admit I'm just posting here because my parents never loved me and any attention is better than none!!www.whineaboutnothing.com1 Have I missed anything and anyone whining about a game they can leave? Now please stop these extremely childish whine and cry threads about nothing. If you don't like the game leave and don't come back, all the little children complaining about everything just isn't going to get things done the way you want them to and you will be resisted fiercely. Las call for the nerf whine train departing on platform STFU. All those attention ***s can board the train leaving for WoW now. Please have your complaint at hand while boarding and do leave your luggage behind at the counter 'can I have your stuff?'. Thank you very much and kthxbye. Thanks for these insightful comments about game balance and design. Now get out.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.09 21:17:00 - [619] Edited by: HydroSan on 09/05/2008 21:18:50 Originally by: Knoetje If it's Titans field Dreads and Carriers. Can't field them? Leave 0 until you can. I'm going to bold this just so you can read it a little easier. The point is that even if you can field your own dreads and carriers, subcapitals become pointless. One ship should not render every shiptype below it useless. Battleships were nerfed and balanced so they couldn't one-shot orbiting frigates because it made flying anything below a battleship stupid. The same must be done to Titans. Why should people who fly battleships, battlecruisers, recons and the like be told to go home because they don't own a certain shiptype and therefore have no place in the game? Why should their ONLY role be to get blown up by a bunch of guys mashing F1 until their fireworks go off? How is this balanced? Why should game balance revolve around 50-60 people in big spaceships mashing F1?
Jarkovii Caldari YTiRi Directorate Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.05.10 02:50:00 - [620] Well then, sorry if this has been posted before but 650+ posts is a bit much... Make the Doomsday have a 48 hour cool down period.. --------------------- "It's better to know what not to do than to think you know what to do.

Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:11:00 - [621] My point isn't about Titans, my point isn't about blobs, capital blobs, frigate blobs or any ingame blobl. My point is the blobbing of the forums with "Please nerf this, please nerf that NAO!1!1one!" Do you guys think you would get this kind of attention from other companies? Do you think you would get the responses that you do? Sony introduced player councils years ago and I agree it's nothing new but can someone please name a game Sony haven't either killed or aren't letting die? CCP have introduced things to EVE which no other game has, no other game will have and no other game can have simply because of the nature of EVE and the incessant complaining is just tedious. Give us all a break from Domi's are overpowered to Ibis's need to be nerfed to Carriers should be removed to Nerf Titans so they can be removed from the game. CCP don't want Capital Ship Online but that is exactly what you get and what do you expect? People learn how to fly Caps and they want to use them and why shouldn't they? After two years of training you want to make use of the skills that you have. If there's no point in having caps and bs's are all that are then what do you get? You get even bigger blobs than you get now and then we will get the whine "Do something about the lag" threads. This year and next year a few other space MMO's will be released and I can see a lot of people leaving EVE for those games simply because of all of this. It is frustrating to see that all you people have to say is negative things about the game. I for one will leave EVE if CCP keeps nerfing everything just to satisfy the needs of those who think they ruin the battlefield they were meant to ruin. I am training hard for a cap and if they get nerfed I will leave for a game where the devs aren't intimidated by noobs like you lot attempting threadnought after threadnought. I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.
Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.10 03:20:00 - [622] Originally by: Jarkovii Well then, sorry if this has been posted before but 650+ posts is a bit much... Make the Doomsday have a 48 hour cool down period.. 650 isn't a lot, the Goons & cronies will probably make this go on forever untill they get what they want like the spoilt brats that they are. This is the problem you have, give them an inch and they'll try and take the entire universe because it belongs to them now doesn't it? I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 04:42:00 - [623] Edited by: HydroSan on 10/05/2008 04:42:43 I think you've forgotten that this is a game and CCP has a responsibility to make it fun for more than 1000 of the 20,000 people who live in 0.0. Or that other alliances other than "crybaby goons" also have concern over how many Titans are being used in combat, including "non-blobbing" alliances like KIA. Some of our long time enemies are even agreeing with us "horrible blobber noobs" on this. Why can't you see this? Oh, right. You're a troll. Get the hell out.
Knoetje	Posted - 2008.05.10 05:46:00 - [624] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 10/05/2008 04:42:43 I think you've forgotten that this is a game and CCP has a responsibility to make it fun for more than 1000 of the 20,000 people who live in 0.0. Or that other alliances other than "crybaby goons" also have concern over how many Titans are being used in combat, including "non-blobbing" alliances like KIA. Some of our long time enemies are even agreeing with us "horrible blobber noobs" on this. Why can't you see this? Oh, right. You're a troll. Get the hell out. I won't get out. I want Minmatar and Amarr nerfed so can we do that while we're on the nerf cry train? I'm a Goon Titan alt, don't tell anyone.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 07:23:00 - [625] Edited by: HydroSan on 10/05/2008 07:24:28 Originally by: Knoetje I won't get out. I want Minmatar and Amarr nerfed so can we do that while we're on the nerf cry train? Do you have any rationale, situations or theories for wanting these races nerfed? Do you have an evidence to support these claims? Do you have anyone who will back up your claims? Do you have any experience to justify these claims? This forum is for the discussion of game mechanics and balancing issues. If you cannot add anything to this topic without trolling, you do not belong in this forum. If you wish to troll us because of what alliance tag we have displayed, please go to this forum instead - we don't need non-contributors attempting to troll their way out of rational arguments in this forum.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.10 08:44:00 - [626] Therein is the point... Masses win the battle. Nowhere should the minority win over the mass. Period, end of story. You want to win? Bring more... You will always win with the greater mass, no one should ever win with the lesser.
Centuri Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:11:00 - [627] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Therein is the point... Masses win the battle. Nowhere should the minority win over the mass. Period, end of story. You want to win? Bring more... You will always win with the greater mass, no one should ever win with the lesser. 7000 titans vs 7001 pods. Titans might as well go home?
Dingo	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:49:00 - [628] Edited by: Dingo on 10/05/2008 10:54:27 I don't think the DDD is the problem here. I think people need to be encouraged to use the titan in a differnt way. IMO the Titan should be made into a captial command/logistics ship, used to support a captial fleet rather than attack other fleets with it's DDD. To do this I would like to see the titan given gang bonus's that affect other capital ships in it's fleet, a bonus for the titan remotely repping other capital ships near it and the ability to remotley refuel and rearm nearby capitals. I would like the DDD to be changed so it can only be fired if the titan goes into a seige mode like dreads (or reduce the damge and radius of effect if it is fired when not in seige mode). This I think this will incourage people to make the titan the heart of a capital fleet rather than a single ship fleet killing machine begging to be abused. PS sorry if this has already been mentioned, I did not have time to read through the whole of this very long thread.
Sylvanna's Slave	Posted - 2008.05.10 12:59:00 - [629] What about add a Damage Cap to the DDD? more ships less dmg
bestow this	Posted - 2008.05.10 16:10:00 - [630] Edited by: bestow this on 10/05/2008 16:14:05 problem is a titan is the end game ship. if you get that many together the DD's cool down means nothing. so the blob can not be beaten. >>how about a 24H cool down instead?! you would need an insanely large blob of them for the DD cycle not be broken. >>>or possibly a limit to the number of DD that can be done in a single system or grid in a given in a 23H day. >>>Or a short cool down on the grid its self preventing fast double DD.

Kethry Avenger Angel Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.10 16:45:00 - [631] Not having even seen a Titan yet and not really wanting to for that matter I did hear an idea I like in the COAD titan thread. Hell its probably already in this one I'm just not going to read all xx pages. Adjust the Titan effect so that it is dependent on Sig radius. With full effect or close to full effect on BC's and larger. This means it still hurts all ships on the grid and very helpful but doesn't ruin the game experience for 200+ people half of whom are probably lagged so much they couldn't warp off if they know they are supposed to. Then add a script that increases the damage of a Titan DD but only lets it hit one target. I think these should just be the starting points. See what this does and adjust from there.
Salient Soldier Minmatar Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 22:34:00 - [632] Deterrents to pvp are a bad thing. And titans with DDs are the greatest deterrent to pvp in the game. you can read my rant in full here.
Jitabug Caldari Salvage Junkies	Posted - 2008.05.10 23:01:00 - [633] Given that Heavy Neuts and Tech II drones have a similar impact on frigate class vessels, as Titan's have to BS, can we have battleships removed too? This game is turning into battleships online.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.05.11 01:16:00 - [634] Originally by: Kethry Avenger Not having even seen a Titan yet and not really wanting to for that matter I did hear an idea I like in the COAD titan thread. Hell its probably already in this one I'm just not going to read all xx pages. Adjust the Titan effect so that it is dependent on Sig radius. With full effect or close to full effect on BC's and larger. This means it still hurts all ships on the grid and very helpful but doesn't ruin the game experience for 200+ people half of whom are probably lagged so much they couldn't warp off if they know they are supposed to. Then add a script that increases the damage of a Titan DD but only lets it hit one target. I think these should just be the starting points. See what this does and adjust from there. this is that thread... Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 06:37:00 - [635] Originally by: Jitabug Given that Heavy Neuts and Tech II drones have a similar impact on frigate class vessels, as Titan's have to BS, can we have battleships removed too? This game is turning into battleships online. A single battleship with heavy neuts and T2 drones cannot solo an entire fleet of frigates.
Nathvas	Posted - 2008.05.11 06:46:00 - [636] My suggestion to the DD is to change it. I always pictured it from star wars, as a big powerful gun that when it fires, something usually went boom. Just not entire fleets. So here is my crazy suggestion. Remove the DD aoe damage and make it a main cannon like in star wars. Every 5 mins it can shoot 1 round that Cap piolets fear. It won't instant pop a Carrier or dread but if a sheild tanker at full strength gets hit by it. It gets knocked down to 1/4 sheild strentgh. and for a sheild tanker, that hurts. For armor tankers at full strength. It rips threw all its sheilds and knocked it to 1/3 armor. As for battle ships, unless it has officer loot. It gets one shooted. This will make having Titans in Cap Fleet battles extremly important. Say you have a Target dread or Carrier armor tanking that is armor reping and is stable at 50% armor. The titan can target that carrier, engage the DD and pop that Cap ship. Of course, the titan should have some protection against smaller ships. So once every 2 minutes. It has a secondary gun system that does a 5km radius aoe barrage like artillary in RL. Maybye it will land near you and blow your frigate to smitherans, or maybye you'll get lucky and the round will donate a little bit away from you and you surive. Who knows, excpet the myserious dice rollers. The damage this barrage does is 100-1000 damage. With 1000 damage being like 10% of happening with the lower amounts increasing. Reason I say up to 1k damage is this gives the titan the potentiol to blow up frigates if they some how get lucky with no gurantee to 1 shot entire squadrons.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 06:47:00 - [637] Oh Em Ge... I just lost my frigate to a CRUISER!!1!one! He had moar gunz than me! I think Cruisers overwhelm poor defenseless frigates! We should get rid of anything larger than the free Rookie boats... immediately, if not sooner. Why has this conversation gone on for 22 pages? Titans are the Eve equal to a Death Star. Of course they are going to be powerful. And if someone should happen to amass eight (8) of them in one place, then you shouldn't even dream of winning that fight. Don't whine and gripe about how your Interceptor is uber fast and should be able to outrun it. Or how the energy wave being released should get soaked up before it hurts you and makes you die. Titans aren't invincible, but they are supposed to be tough. That's why they take over a year to train into. If you're fighting 8 Titans, it's time to reconsider tactics. If you're upset because Eve has such things... go play Checkers instead.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.11 07:09:00 - [638] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Jitabug Given that Heavy Neuts and Tech II drones have a similar impact on frigate class vessels, as Titan's have to BS, can we have battleships removed too? This game is turning into battleships online. A single battleship with heavy neuts and T2 drones cannot solo an entire fleet of frigates. Provided that the frigates are competently commanded and fitted, correct. At the same time a single titan cannot solo an entire fleet of battleships provided that the battleships are competently commanded and fitted. A dozen 100k effective armor remote rep battleships with 1 remote armor rep and 1 heavy neut each would *****a titan if it had no support. Granted the chance of finding a Titan with no support is much lower than the chance of finding a battleship with no support Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot!
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.11 13:30:00 - [639] Edited by: xHomicide on 11/05/2008 13:30:23 A titan's DD should kill capitals (including other titans), that would fix the games capital problem. Hell, make it wipe out POS at the same time, that would fix the game's ****ty POS warfare. --- Razor CEI
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 16:17:00 - [640] Edited by: HydroSan on 11/05/2008 16:19:46 So it looks like the alt brigade has a new song: OMG CRUISER SOLO FRIGATE The fact remains that a cruiser does not have a 250km omnidirection 70k damage smartbomb that can be fired by mashing a single button repeatedly until it fires. A cruiser must be fit properly, get into position of the frigate, probably web the frigate unless it's a HAC sniper, and then turn on all of his modules. If the frigate has other friends, he must have a tank and deal with those too, or gank enough of them before his tank runs dry. The cruiser has to use tactics. It has to be completely aware of everything shooting at it. It has to know if x-number of frigates can break his tank before he can gank enough of them. Warping to a covops and mashing F1 until a big fireworks display comes from your ship is not tactics. Having seven buddies that do the same thing at the same time is not tactics: it's blobbing. The anti-blob ship has turned into the ship that people use to blob itself. Ironic, isn't it? Why should I have to play "Dodge The Dictor" while my enemy can just warp in expensive ships and try to one-shot my entire fleet repeatedly? How is it fair that I have to have some kind of clairvoyance in order to survive while the Titan pilot just has to see if ships are <250km from him and then mash a button and watch the killmails roll in? Why should spending a certain amount of ISK allow you to break the balance of the game?

Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 16:41:00 - [641] Because it's not only the ISK they spent for the Titan and DDD, along with all the other mods they have installed. It's they year+++ they spent training to be able to use it. You want to make a month old alt comparable with a 5 year veteran. I agree that DDD is an awesome and scary weapon. And certainly having someone bring in 8 Titans at once would be enough to make me log out in the hopes I might have a pod to come back to. But don't tell me excessive firepower is enough grounds for a total reworking of the system. Or that Cruiser pilot will want the several frigates gnawing away at his armor nerfed as well.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 16:54:00 - [642] Edited by: HydroSan on 11/05/2008 16:53:46 Originally by: Marcus Gideon Because it's not only the ISK they spent for the Titan and DDD, along with all the other mods they have installed. It's they year+++ they spent training to be able to use it. You want to make a month old alt comparable with a 5 year veteran. You seem to be confused. This isn't WoW. This is EVE Online. Whoever has the highest level should not be given an I-Win button (or multiple I-Win buttons) simply because they've powergamed hard enough to come into possession of ships that can one-shot entire fleets. This isn't good for game balance, it isn't fun, and it doesn't promote tactics or warfare. If you want a game where you can just poopsock and then become an unstoppable one-man-killing-machine then I suggest you sell your EVE characters, pick up a WoW character and grind yourself retarded.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:09:00 - [643] Originally by: HydroSan You seem to be confused. This isn't WoW. This is EVE Online. Whoever has the highest level should not be given an I-Win button (or multiple I-Win buttons) simply because they've powergamed hard enough to come into possession of ships that can one-shot entire fleets. This isn't good for game balance, it isn't fun, and it doesn't promote tactics or warfare. First... don't think that invoking WoW like some sort of curse will scare me. I'm not afraid to mention "The MMO That Shall Not Be Named" for fear it'll enrage someone. You'll notice Eve doesn't have character levels. But it does have Skill Points based on training. No matter how much you cry about it, someone who has spent time doing a job will be better than someone who just showed up. Players in Eve start out "even" in that they have the same basic skills and the same number of SP. But the moment you start training your first skill, you're on your own. If you train to Mine, you're not going to be as good at combat as someone who started Fighting right away. As for the DDD, they have a cooldown after use. And the smart fleet would send in a handful of ships, wait for the DDD to go off, and then warp in enough to take it down before it recharges. Arguing about 8 Titans is rediculous, because there are 8 of them. No amount of whining will save you from 8 nuclear weapons going off in your backyard. But striking at the owners might. So find out where these folks are keeping those 8 Titans, and take them out where they live. Or get out of 0.0 so they can't use this advantage over you.
Nathvas	Posted - 2008.05.11 19:35:00 - [644] If there wasn't the issue of lag. I'd probably say leave the DD alone. Cause you could warp away before it donate, but with all the lag with large fleet engagements. I say Make the DD a anti-cap ship cannon. Instead of a Anti-fleet support weapon. Even the death star in star wars wasn't a single fleet killer. Its main gun toke out Cap ships and other large ships. But had a hard time with the smaller ones.
BigWhale Gallente Divine Power R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.11 19:47:00 - [645] From smart bombs to DD, they all should do a damage in an expanding sphere around the ship and the damage should drop rapidly while expanding outwards from the ship. Just like it happenes with radio waves. That. Or DD's shouldn't be a pulse weapon but more of a really rapid pulse laser that can destroy a BS with one pulse. It simply targets each and every ship on the grid firing pulses very rapidly. So it would take 30 seconds or so to hit 100 ships. Or just make titans a really huge support ships. ;> -- R, U & Y are letters, not words...
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:02:00 - [646] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Arguing about 8 Titans is rediculous, because there are 8 of them. No amount of whining will save you from 8 nuclear weapons going off in your backyard. But striking at the owners might. So find out where these folks are keeping those 8 Titans, and take them out where they live. Or get out of 0.0 so they can't use this advantage over you. Take out where they live... how? By sieging their space and running into 8 titans? You're confusing the chicken and the egg. As for "if you don't have 8 titans get out of 0.0" comment... I don't have anything to say to that. Try to remember that this is a game and CCP has a responsibility to keep it balanced so it remains fun; for both the attacking force who have nothing to do as their friends fire off 8 nukes, and the defending force who can't do anything about it.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:22:00 - [647] Who are you hanging out with, that they have 8 Titans at their disposal? What seems to be getting missed this whole time, is the balance already instituted with the DDD. They require fuel to set off. The Titan requires fuel to get into position to be set off. And they can only be used once per hour. Don't blame your opponents tactics by reinforcing the 1/hour by arranging for several. However, I could see a simple balance being; make the DDD affect everyone in range. Friend, foe, neutral, cats, dogs, squirrels... Kill them all. Then everyone will be more hesitant to set them off, especially 8 in rapid succession.
Pesadel0 Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:29:00 - [648] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Marcus Gideon Arguing about 8 Titans is rediculous, because there are 8 of them. No amount of whining will save you from 8 nuclear weapons going off in your backyard. But striking at the owners might. So find out where these folks are keeping those 8 Titans, and take them out where they live. Or get out of 0.0 so they can't use this advantage over you. Take out where they live... how? By sieging their space and running into 8 titans? You're confusing the chicken and the egg. As for "if you don't have 8 titans get out of 0.0" comment... I don't have anything to say to that. Try to remember that this is a game and CCP has a responsibility to keep it balanced so it remains fun; for both the attacking force who have nothing to do as their friends fire off 8 nukes, and the defending force who can't do anything about it. Bring more people?Attack other systems?Try to defend your Cynojammed systems?Attrition war?Bring more people and make them stay and attack for longer periods of time? ------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:38:00 - [649] Here we go... Goon and BOB are gonna argue this out. =D Seriously though, the Titan is the Eve version of a nuclear bomb. Not to dredge up bad memories, but I'm pretty sure Japan cried "Nerf!" too. This game appears to be growing stale for all the seasoned veterans. They have learned their tactics, learned what steps 1, 2, and 3 need to be done for situation A. And when someone comes up with a deviation, they insist everything needs corrected to get it back to their comfort level. Learn to adapt and overcome.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:44:00 - [650] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Who are you hanging out with, that they have 8 Titans at their disposal? What seems to be getting missed this whole time, is the balance already instituted with the DDD. They require fuel to set off. The Titan requires fuel to get into position to be set off. And they can only be used once per hour. Don't blame your opponents tactics by reinforcing the 1/hour by arranging for several. However, I could see a simple balance being; make the DDD affect everyone in range. Friend, foe, neutral, cats, dogs, squirrels... Kill them all. Then everyone will be more hesitant to set them off, especially 8 in rapid succession. Don't discuss things you obviously have no clue about. 1. There is at least 2, probably 3 alliances with 8 titans at their disposal. 2. The fuel needed is a joke, its practically free. 3. They already hit both friend and foe in the area of effect.

Kasheem Cetanes The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:52:00 - [651] Solutions to titans in my eyes: Dooms Day Nerf (not change in damage, but make the titan deal substantially more damage to its self / other titans and supercapitals) A shield ship of some sort, that absorbs all damage delt to / from a specific area so it gets pwnt but protects its fleet Suicide ships like scrabs from starcraft, that are like battleships that crash into titans and do millions of damage, but its based off of sig radius -shrug- discuss?
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 20:59:00 - [652] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 11/05/2008 21:00:18 Alright... if DDD affects everyone, then their fleet should be dying too. If they're running first, that should be a clue to you what's coming. Why should a DDD affect the Titan, when no other weapon hurts the ship it's mounted on. Shield ships have been suggested, but they are all geared towards damage immunity instead of DDD negation. So Shield ships will be abused by Gate Camps and who knows what else. Kamikaze might be interesting...
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 21:23:00 - [653] Edited by: HydroSan on 11/05/2008 21:23:24 Originally by: Marcus Gideon Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 11/05/2008 21:00:18 Alright... if DDD affects everyone, then their fleet should be dying too. If they're running first, that should be a clue to you what's coming. Two sniper fleets 140km away from each other. Fleet 1 <---140km---> Fleet 2 All you have to do is warp the Titan blob 200km behind Fleet 2 and set off your nukes: well out of range of Fleet 1, and well out of striking distance of Fleet 2, not that they would have time to react between "TITANS ON GRID" and the Titan pilots setting off their fireworks two seconds later. Fleet 1 <---140km---> Fleet 2 <---200km---> Titan Blob And there you have it: how to one-shot an entire fleet.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 21:26:00 - [654] Sounds like a spectacular strategy you're upset you didn't use first. Why not get a handful of Titans, and do the same to them?
Hunlight Faithus Sky Net Industries Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.11 21:51:00 - [655] What i would propose for changes to the titan is to bring it to the front lines of the fight. They can currently fit capital gun/missiles but there kinda only useful against pos and other caps(if there not moving) the way i see the titan should be used is as an anticapital ship but also maintain some of its current roles aminly the logistics. (i'll touch on the ddd in a bit) I think that per level the titan should get maybe a 10-25% bonus to damage of its capital wepons, then a 15% bonus per level for tracking, and explosiong velocity for missiles. this would make it very effective at killing capital ships hopefully making people bring them to the forefront of a capital gang rather than just dd'ing bs gangs. it should maintain all its current bonuses. Doomsdays should be scripted, they could be used in an uber death ray type thing which could insta pop a carrier but mean the titan is stuck in place for 5 minutes (maybe more?), with it taking 95% of cap away and make it so the script is destroyed and the scipts to have a price of say 50mil a pop?? or make it somewhat like its current use still been able to doomsday bs fleets but at reduced range say 150km? also make it increase its sig radius by 200% and 95% cap used, with it then beeing stuck for 20 minutes. Now to me it would seem this maintains enough of its current role not to anger the large allinces with large numbers of them but also expose them more by been able to kill capitals effecivly without need to siege etc?? Just thought i'd throw that out there, say what you want :) ------------------------------------------------------
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:36:00 - [656] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Sounds like a spectacular strategy you're upset you didn't use first. Why not get a handful of Titans, and do the same to them? Why don't you play a bit longer than 2 months and get some experience in warfare before discussing stuff you have no clue about?
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:42:00 - [657] Hmm... sorry, darned Freedom of Speech getting me into bad habits. I thought the 23 PAGES of arguments for and against meant I could chip in a bit. Sorry to step on the toes of the big kids and their conversation "We lost because they had bigger ships than us!" I'm sure CCP is just dying to step in here and make sure everyone plays nice.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:48:00 - [658] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Hmm... sorry, darned Freedom of Speech getting me into bad habits. I thought the 23 PAGES of arguments for and against meant I could chip in a bit. Sorry to step on the toes of the big kids and their conversation "We lost because they had bigger ships than us!" I'm sure CCP is just dying to step in here and make sure everyone plays nice. I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but its quite obvious you've never been in a large 0.0 conflict before. And in this case, that is actually pretty relevant in terms of what is and isn't possible. I take no pleasure in telling you this, but you're not really contributing anything to the discussion if you don't have a clue about what is going on. The issue here is not that I don't agree with you, but there are really a lot of aspects to this whole thing which you're missing.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:14:00 - [659] Edited by: Kitoba on 11/05/2008 23:15:01 Let recharge time grow exponentially if the dd is fired in rapid succession. Alternatively, make the dd operate by igniting everything of vacuum that isn't vacuum, which of course depletes it further until additional dd's just make no significant damage whatsoever. Very effectively caps its usage. Edit: The implementation of the second idea is pure hell.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:15:00 - [660] I agree... that I'm new and may not understand. But I think I have the general idea of "lots of ships on either side, shooting at each other" and when someone shows up with 8 nuclear weapons, it will ruin the mood pretty fast. But I have to think, among other strategies... what works for one can work for another. Build your own squadron of Titans, and bring them into the fray before they do. Do unto others, and so forth. Cyno can only be used in 0.0? Or just Low Sec period. I seem to think 0.0 in which case you could make the enemy fight on your terms by moving to 0.1 and removing the Titan problem completely. I think there's other ways to correct this issue, without rendering the Titan completely useless.

Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:17:00 - [661] 666!
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:20:00 - [662] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 11/05/2008 23:22:07 Originally by: Kitoba Let recharge time grow exponentially if the dd is fired in rapid succession. Alternatively, make the dd operate by igniting everything of vacuum that isn't vacuum, which of course depletes it further until additional dd's just make no significant damage whatsoever. Very effectively caps its usage. Edit: The implementation of the second idea is pure hell. I actually thought the second idea was good. Make the DD cause some "taint" to the area, so the damage can't be inflicted repeatedly. I was actually thinking of some sort of limit on how many Titans could be in the same grid at once, what with engine mechanics or DD emissions or handicapped parking... whatever. I thought DD had a 1 hour cooldown. The point of having 8 was so you could set several off without the wait time.
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:22:00 - [663] I posted this in the other thread, but I suppose it belongs here. And sorry if it's been brought up before, but I can't be bothered reading 23 pages. How about simply making titans very vulnerable to doomsday blasts? They wouldn't be hit by their own blast, but if multiple titans were present, they would hurt each other really badly.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:24:00 - [664] Don't attack him. Attack his arguments. Of which they are many flaws. To start with your argument ignores tactical considerations, ignores scale, ignores ranges, ignores warping, ignores dictors, ignores cov-ops, and simply ignores the fact that CCP has said that this is not a game where skillpoints or money trump all and has enshrined that in their design manifesto for the game Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:26:00 - [665] Originally by: Irn Bruce I posted this in the other thread, but I suppose it belongs here. And sorry if it's been brought up before, but I can't be bothered reading 23 pages. How about simply making titans very vulnerable to doomsday blasts? They wouldn't be hit by their own blast, but if multiple titans were present, they would hurt each other really badly. titans have like 4-8m EHP. at 70k damage per DD it would take 50 -> 100 DD's to take one down. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:30:00 - [666] Yea, 4-8m EHP, but only about 1mil HP. If you removed their resists against doomsday, then they would sting considerably more. Especially if already under attack. Or even if DD automatically damaged a Titan's structure or something.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:43:00 - [667] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Originally by: Kitoba Let recharge time grow exponentially if the dd is fired in rapid succession. Alternatively, make the dd operate by igniting everything of vacuum that isn't vacuum, which of course depletes it further until additional dd's just make no significant damage whatsoever. Very effectively caps its usage. Edit: The implementation of the second idea is pure hell. I actually thought the second idea was good. It's doable, each dd shot would spawn a sphere that reduces the damage taken by ships inside it, deteriorate over time, and of course overlap with others. You should always have at least two or three ideas about how to go on to implement something before deciding whether it's hell or not. But that was actually not what I wanted to say, the point is that both approaches are almost completely equivalent from the game design pov: The sphere model allows for the same damage to be dealt as now iff the shots are spaced out, but tactical considerations should make both almost completely overlap.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.12 02:53:00 - [668] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. Yes, you still have the jump bridge and stuff, but that's just pathetic for such an obscenely expensive ship. Dude, remove the DDD and make titans cost 1 trit and 30 seconds to build, and it'd still be more balanced than the current state. How sick is that?
Jimmy Cliff Dawning Industries	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:10:00 - [669] If you have problems fighting a Titan, bring in your own Titan! You can't fight bombs with bb-guns! You need weapons of similar sizes.
Daraasi Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:39:00 - [670] Honestly, 23 pages is way too many pages to read so the probability of this having been said 100 times before approaches 100%. If you're worried about a fleet of titans being uncounterable then stop worrying about the weapons the gang uses and simple stop it forming in the first place. Say that a titans mass is so huge, they cant be jumped within a certain distance of each other, an AU or something. That way Titans become lone behemoths again. It wouldnt be that hard to code i shouldn't imagine. It makes a fuzzy sort of physical sense. It allows "smaller" or less titan orientated alliances to vie for space owned by formiddable advirseries without negating the vlaue of the investment put into the titan. Any way that affects the individual effectiveness of a titan unfairly hurts those that have put such large investments into them and may well never have engaged in sup-cap blobs. And anything that adds a unit to counter or survive the DD is simply creating a vast new problem to attempt to cover up an old one introducing an eve cane toad. Jovia Delenda Est.

Superstar Phoenix Superstar Phoenix Corp	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:24:00 - [671] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. It's not frig online, cruiser online or T1 online either.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:52:00 - [672] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. Threat, yes. the question is how much of a threat? Im 5'11 and weight about 125 lbs, in a fist fight I'm a threat to a 250 professional boxer. Not much of a threat, but a threat. Threat does not equate to 'reasonable chance I can take you' My kestral is a threat to a hyperion, but I'd run out of ammo before I could break his tank all by my self. So while I'm a threat, expecting I could actually defeat said target is stretching it. I'd need to invest far more hardware to expect any real chance of destroying that target. While it is nice that in eve smaller ships can almost always find a use even in large fights, real effectiveness of those ships drops off significantly when your opponent outclasses you by such a huge margin. And while it would be nice to think that CCP meant it when they said that 'that this is not a game where skill points or money trump all and has enshrined that in their design manifesto for the game'. The reality is that older players have an advantage over new ones, and expecting otherwise is foolish and naive, there has to be a reward for players who have invested scads of time and in game money. And that reward is bigger and stronger ships and more proficiency with those ships. They have LIMITED that advantage so that new players can still compete with older ones, the divide is not so wide as in say for example WoW, where someone with T6 gear will mop the floor with someone without. But there is still a divide and always will be. More money and better gear won't let you automatically win, but it sure helps to be able to field more ships, and better ships that your opponent can.
Kuroshiro	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:27:00 - [673] Originally by: Marcus Gideon But I have to think, among other strategies... what works for one can work for another. Build your own squadron of Titans, and bring them into the fray before they do. Do unto others, and so forth. This is exactly what every large 0.0 alliance is doing. And that's great and all, but it also means that subcapital ships are becoming worthless for holding sov at a pretty astonishing rate. Like you might as well not have them. One thing that drew many of us to EVE initially was the fact that you don't have to have a 'high level character' to participate in the end game. If you start telling people that they have to grind a(nother) year's worth of skills and shell out 2-3bn isk just to participate in the sov warfare that dictates their alliance's fate, most people are probably just going to quit. Depending on your views of the people doing the quitting, you may consider this a good thing, but it's almost certainly not good for EVE Online as a whole.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 00:55:00 - [674] Originally by: Jimmy Cliff If you have problems fighting a Titan, bring in your own Titan! You can't fight bombs with bb-guns! You need weapons of similar sizes. Titans don't fight Titans. Titans fight anything not a capital ship. If both sides have multiple Titans you may as well tell your support fleet to log off because they're not going to do anything except get blasted by multiple doomsdays. The point is that subcapitals are being made worthless under the current capital ship mechanics. Everything from frigates to T2-fitted Battleships are affected by this. Everything from interceptors to faction-fitted command ships is affected by this. ANYONE WHO DOESN'T FLY A CAPITAL IS AFFECTED BY THIS. How much clearer can I make it?
Endrain	Posted - 2008.05.15 02:46:00 - [675] titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:43:00 - [676] Originally by: TypoNinja Threat, yes. the question is how much of a threat? Im 5'11 and weight about 125 lbs, in a fist fight I'm a threat to a 250 professional boxer. Not much of a threat, but a threat. Threat does not equate to 'reasonable chance I can take you' Do you realize that you committed the same fallacy that you accused me of committing in this post?[and one i was pointing out either in the quoted post or before hand] No one is saying they should not have an advantage they are saying the advantage they have is too great. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:07:00 - [677] Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:31:00 - [678] Boohooo the Titan DD'd my frigate fleet NERF IT!! Booohooo the Carrier couldn't be destroyed by our noob ships NERF IT!! Boohooo the Dread blew our pos up NERF IT!! Booohooo the Battleship smartbombed our ships NERF BOTH!! Boohoo the Commandshio gave bonuses to everything so we got wasted by superiour tactics NERF EVERYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE TO DO WITH COMMAND SHIPS!! Booohooo Battlecruisers have replaced commandships NERF THEM TOO!! Boohoo damned Cruisers just pwned us because of superiour numbers NERF THEM!! Booohooo we lost the war because we got frigate blobbed NERF FRIGATES AND BLOBS!! Boohoo we didn't get any Pod kills because they warped off NERF POD WARP!! Booohooo the POD selfdestructed REMOVE THAT TOO!! Boohoo we can't get our Wartargets because they use their address books NERF IT!! Booohooo people are talking in local NERF LOCAL!! Boohoo I'm a whiner who just wants to whine about everything NERF MY FORUM ACCESS AND PERMA MUTE ME!! You whiners need to shut up it's unbelievable how much you people can whine about nothing. You lot will never stop the nerf whine untill there's no more eve left and then you can all sit back satisfied that you destroyed a game simply because you could. Cap ship online for the lose? Whiners like you lot for the lose. I hate every single one of you. Nerf this, nerf that just because you couldn't tank Titans, carriers, dreads, battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, frigates, noob ships and pods. If you don't want any cap ship fleets remove cap ships but then why have their BPO's if they weren't supposed to be built? Logic in this thread = 0 Stupidity = overdose I have been DD'd several times and they have been nerfed more than enough. The only nerf required now is for you lot to either leave EVE or get a whine ban. Cry a river, build a bridge and jump off it en mass so you stop spamming forums with nonsense like this. Kthx STFU and leave the game.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:28:00 - [679] ignores the angry ranting Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit. The plain and simple truth is, Eve isn't a video game anymore. It's become a futuristic life simulation. And in emulating life, we find we don't always wind up in the situations we hoped for. However they did it, and whoever let them do it, there are groups out there with a rediculous amount of firepower on their side. I agree 100% with the notion that EIGHT (8) Titans are too many to face at once. But they are there, and for the time being there is no rule against how much firepower can be brought to a fight. So crying "nerf" will not save you. Now if CCP wants to find some way to limit the number of ships on each side of the conflict, that might solve something. Consider that ships have to be Fleeted to get bonuses, and thus are associated together by that fleet. So limit how many in a fleet can be in the same grid at once. Sure, people can make smaller fleets to get around it. But they aren't getting the same bonuses they would if they were all together. Maybe something like this could keep from having tons of Titans, Capitals, and every other form of ship all on site at once. It would cut down on lag from too much traffic, and it would decrease the chances your entire alliance gets wiped out at once. Make players split their forces onto several fronts. A blob fighting here, another fighting several AU away. Or even another system over, just to cut down on the total overkill. Just a thought.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:34:00 - [680] Edited by: Tatoed Goat on 17/05/2008 04:35:58 Originally by: Marcus Gideon ignores the angry ranting Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit. The plain and simple truth is, Eve isn't a video game anymore. It's become a futuristic life simulation. And in emulating life, we find we don't always wind up in the situations we hoped for. However they did it, and whoever let them do it, there are groups out there with a rediculous amount of firepower on their side. I agree 100% with the notion that EIGHT (8) Titans are too many to face at once. But they are there, and for the time being there is no rule against how much firepower can be brought to a fight. So crying "nerf" will not save you. Now if CCP wants to find some way to limit the number of ships on each side of the conflict, that might solve something. Consider that ships have to be Fleeted to get bonuses, and thus are associated together by that fleet. So limit how many in a fleet can be in the same grid at once. Sure, people can make smaller fleets to get around it. But they aren't getting the same bonuses they would if they were all together. Maybe something like this could keep from having tons of Titans, Capitals, and every other form of ship all on site at once. It would cut down on lag from too much traffic, and it would decrease the chances your entire alliance gets wiped out at once. Make players split their forces onto several fronts. A blob fighting here, another fighting several AU away. Or even another system over, just to cut down on the total overkill. Just a thought. I fully agree with the poster here. For example each side can bring a maximum of 1 Titan 2 Carriers 2 Dreads 50 Battleships 10 Command Ships 100 Frigates 0 Pods 1 Node Crash Fair fight, especially at pos sieges in which the POS will always win. before this gets implemented everyone would go for a massive landgrab and get as much space as they can because once entrenched it can't be taken from them anyway unless their logistics has been disrupted but concidering the existence of Jump Freighters and the many ways this can be avoided I don't know if I should laugh or not as this will make 0 warfare pointless. Anyway the side with the least lag wins so what's difference will this make? I do, however, agree that this is NOT a video game if it was you goons wouldn't complain so much about things you can't destroy and wars you can't win.

Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:39:00 - [681] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. And this sums up the entire goon argument. Noob frigates should be able to destroy everything. We are goons and we want Noob Frigate Online, not EVE Online and we will whine untill we get it!
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:49:00 - [682] Originally by: Tatoed Goat For example each side can bring a maximum of 1 Titan 2 Carriers 2 Dreads 50 Battleships 10 Command Ships 100 Frigates 0 Pods 1 Node Crash Fair fight, especially at pos sieges in which the POS will always win. before this gets implemented everyone would go for a massive landgrab and get as much space as they can because once entrenched it can't be taken from them anyway unless their logistics has been disrupted but concidering the existence of Jump Freighters and the many ways this can be avoided I don't know if I should laugh or not as this will make 0 warfare pointless. Anyway the side with the least lag wins so what's difference will this make? While your sarcasm amuses me... Why not assign yet another behind-the-scenes value to ships. One that totals into the Fleet limit value. For instance, frigates count as 1 while Titans count as 50 (just making up numbers now). If you want blob warfare, then your chart above seems pretty balanced IMO. If you want to take down a relatively unguarded POS, then replace a large amount of the frigates with more Dreads. The final count would still total the same, less ships but better firepower for the purpose at hand.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:57:00 - [683] Edited by: Tatoed Goat on 17/05/2008 05:00:47 Originally by: Marcus Gideon While your sarcasm amuses me... Why not assign yet another behind-the-scenes value to ships. One that totals into the Fleet limit value. For instance, frigates count as 1 while Titans count as 50 (just making up numbers now). If you want blob warfare, then your chart above seems pretty balanced IMO. If you want to take down a relatively unguarded POS, then replace a large amount of the frigates with more Dreads. The final count would still total the same, less ships but better firepower for the purpose at hand. This makes everything but a cap ship irrelevant in fleet battles which means no more tactics, no more battleship blobs but cap ship blobs and while I love cap ships and would rather leave EVE (including all of my friends) than see caps getting goon'd I agree that pure cap ship blobs are no good. And you say unguarded POS, you know of any alliance who leaves their poses unguarded when attacked? If you do please let me know as I'll definitely go siege their poses and take their space while they are too lazy to guard them.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:06:00 - [684] Originally by: Tatoed Goat This makes everything but a cap ship irrelevant in fleet battles which means no more tactics, no more battleship blobs but cap ship blobs and while I love cap ships and would rather leave EVE (including all of my friends) than see caps getting goon'd I agree that pure cap ship blobs are no good. And you say unguarded POS, you know of any alliance who leaves their poses unguarded when attacked? If you do please let me know as I'll definitely go siege their poses and take their space while they are too lazy to guard them. I think you missed the part where, the larger the ship the more it counts against the grid limit. So if you want to call a swarm of frigates blotting out the skies, and a handful of capitals scattered about, both a "blob". The idea is, you know you can only bring so many ships. So you have to plan how many of what class to bring, depending on what you might face. Group A brings their 8 Titans, and Group B brings 5 million frigates. Or Group A brings several Titans and Capitals, and Group B brings a mix of Dreads and BS.
Sir Substance	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:11:00 - [685] you know, ignoring this whole thread, it would seem to me that the solution to this is that you cant fire more then one doomsday per system per cycle time. i.e (i think the cycle time for a DD is 10 mins) if you have 7 titans in the system, one of them can fire the DD every 10 mins, or each of them can take a turn firing it, and it will take 70 mins for all of them to have a turn. but you cant fire off 2 within 10 mins of each other.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:17:00 - [686] That's the silliest thing I've ever heard... I mean, what's the point in bringing 8 Titans, if they have to wait their turn. They'd all be better off using 1 Titan, and gearing it to be Fleet support instead of several used for Fleet Obliteration. /sarcasm =D The DD limit was touched on before, but no one liked that idea and it was lost in the pages of the thread. The fight has pressed on as to why everyones ideas are better than anyone elses... to no avail.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:28:00 - [687] Originally by: Sir Substance you know, ignoring this whole thread, it would seem to me that the solution to this is that you cant fire more then one doomsday per system per cycle time. i.e (i think the cycle time for a DD is 10 mins) if you have 7 titans in the system, one of them can fire the DD every 10 mins, or each of them can take a turn firing it, and it will take 70 mins for all of them to have a turn. but you cant fire off 2 within 10 mins of each other. Now this isn't a bad idea.
Raelina Peacecraft	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:39:00 - [688] Originally by: FERRET MAN Edited by: FERRET MAN on 30/03/2008 21:05:20 Nothing can counter eight Titans. Sure you can: form a fleet with nine Titans.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.17 10:15:00 - [689] So do you all agree on neither nerfing the DD or Titan nor letting everything as it is, but capping it in some way or the other besides skills/isk, or do I need to mediate?
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 12:20:00 - [690] Originally by: Kitoba So do you all agree on neither nerfing the DD or Titan nor letting everything as it is, but capping it in some way or the other besides skills/isk, or do I need to mediate? Yep you could mediate between the goons and the people who mimick their noob frigate nonsense and the exit because other than that I see no problem with Titans Goons on EVE: Originally by: Goumindong [i]Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest.[/

Gantor Tesla	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:02:00 - [691] All I hear is "wah, they have a fleet that beats mine. Nerf them." You picked a fight, and now it's biting you. Have fun.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.20 05:47:00 - [692] ~bump~ The above are trolls who don't understand what they're talking about. And to counter any "GS LOST A TITAN" bullcrap, our Titan was alone without a supporting fleet. Of course it died. End of story. This thread is about stacking 5+ titans on each other which is becoming the norm, not about lone Titans getting sacked.


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