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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:47:00 - [571] Edited by: HydroSan on 05/05/2008 21:47:49 Originally by: TypoNinja Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Again with the "THEY SPENT MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO THEY SHOULD WIN" crap. I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam: Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule? Why should an alliance be able to play on "god mode" by spending a lot of money on one single shiptype? Moon mining and other ways of making money means some alliances can make enough passive income to make a Titan in under two months. Once the heavy lifting of tower setup and BPO purchasing is done you can just keep pumping them out. Titans even allow you to produce most of the materials in empire and jump bridge them up, allowing you to produce more Titans faster. Why should we abandon balance in favour of whoever has the most amount of cash?
XFreedomX	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:20:00 - [572] Doomsday device needs to use ammo at a cost in line with Strategic Bombs.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:52:00 - [573] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 01:53:16 Originally by: HydroSan I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule?. Why should we abandon balance in favor of whoever has the most amount of cash? They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:10:00 - [574] "you have to be even better at it" is pretty much the same as breaking the rule. Its like saying "new players need to be able to accomplish things" and then saying its O.K. because 10000 new players can accomplish something. The matter of scale cannot be avoided and making it harder to achieve the goal in those manners is very much the same thing as removing those options. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:48:00 - [575] Originally by: TypoNinja Originally by: Alice Atphosea I've read in different places that over three alliances have gained over 10 Titans a piece. Come on CCP, how much more evidence do you need to see this stuff isn't good for the game? They, like me, are probably waiting to see a fight take place where the fleet attacking the titans doesn't cost less than a tenth of the defending fleet. Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Call me crazy but I see no reason why a game where 3-month constructions (their builds accelerated and fueled by other 3 month constructions built in space acquired over 2 years ago, expanded and defended by two consecutive favorable changes in mechanics) dominate entirely could possibly be entertaining for 30000 people on a sunday evening. So we have the possibility of entertaining approximately 250 Titan pilots and having the worlds greatest geriatric MMO circlejerk or an entire subscriber-base. I'm going to throw out a daring hypothesis: We can run an EvE without doomsdays, and with the extra income from running an actually interesting game throw up a TQ mirror without any changes. People might then see the error of their ways and immediately re-subscribe to your very grandiose vision of shipbuilders online.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:58:00 - [576] Originally by: lecrotta They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space. If you cannot restrain yourself from trolling (ie: continuously spouting "t1 friggie/cruisers" even though the doomsday does not discriminate between a frigate and a T2 sniping battleship) I'm going to have to start reporting your posts. Please remain on topic.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:15:00 - [577] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 05/05/2008 21:47:49 Originally by: TypoNinja Call me crazy but I don't think 20 billion isk in battleships and assorted T1 trash attacking a group of titans valued at over 200 billion isk a viable comparison for if the mechanic is broken or not. Again with the "THEY SPENT MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO THEY SHOULD WIN" crap. I'm just going to take an excerpt from the description CCP gave EVE on Steam: Quote: PvP (Player vs. Player) based on strategy, not levels - Tactics have value in EVE Online. Experience and treachery will often beat top-of-the-line modifications and fancy ships. Why should Titans break this rule? Why should an alliance be able to play on "god mode" by spending a lot of money on one single shiptype? Moon mining and other ways of making money means some alliances can make enough passive income to make a Titan in under two months. Once the heavy lifting of tower setup and BPO purchasing is done you can just keep pumping them out. Titans even allow you to produce most of the materials in empire and jump bridge them up, allowing you to produce more Titans faster. Why should we abandon balance in favour of whoever has the most amount of cash? Ohhhh, somebody's getting bitter, you must have been on the receiving end of a DDD recently. To quote your quote about tactics and treachery beating top of the line mods and fancy ships; ill expand. Tactics are good, and all things being equal better tactics will win the fight. All things being equal. but in war things are pretty much never equal. Good Tactics can help you, but if your out numbered ten to one, they can only help you so far, your ass is still dead meat. Good tactics might help you pull a win out of 2 to 1 odds, or maybe even 3 or 4 to 1 if your enemy is particularly inept and your tactics are particularly good. But at 10 to 1, your pretty ****. No amount of tactical trickery will let my kestrel kill your hyperion, its just not gonna happen. Because, and this is important, throwing more ships and resources into combat than your opponent can is also a tactic, one thats fairly effective, of course your alliance tag is goonswarm you should already be aware of that. The problem your having now is that a Titan and its DDD is the perfect counter tactic to a swarm tactic, the much publicized blob that is so common to eve. To again point to the quote you so kindly provided, tactics have value in eve, and in the case of a multiple titans you need a tactic other than simply forming a bigger blob. 'They spend more money they should win crap' as you put it is only half right, 'they spent more money so they have an advantage' would be the correct form. Because warfare is economic, it always has been and it always will be. You fight over territory so you can control the resources in that territory. Because those resources let you continue to fight, and if you take all of your opponents territory they cant afford to replace losses so then you've won. Eve it self is even more economic based, all the draws for pilots in 0.0 space are the chance to make obscene amounts of isk to balance out the risk of 0.0. If I spent 100 mill on a battleship should I expect to be able to fly up to a POS that cost a billion to set up and simply out shoot it? Of course not, that'd be ***** stupid, a good death star POS with gunners can rip the hell out of entire fleets. So why would you expect a different out come just because we upped the scale of the encounter?
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:43:00 - [578] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: lecrotta They do not break the rule they encourage it on a massively greater scale, they force ppl to use tactics, strategy, fleet combat experience and even spying(treachery) to kill a titan or at least take systems off alliances that have titans. Just because you cannot be bothered to, do not have the skill to or want to take the risk of losing high isk value assets to kill high isk value assets does not mean they need nerfing. Why should we want eve 0.0 space holding or taking combat to be turned into several thousand morons in friggies and cruisers spamming blob after blob into a system just to gain a bit of space. If you cannot restrain yourself from trolling (ie: continuously spouting "t1 friggie/cruisers" even though the doomsday does not discriminate between a frigate and a T2 sniping battleship) I'm going to have to start reporting your posts. Please remain on topic. Did you only read those 2 words and ignore the rest cos you cannot answer them?. Report me if you must but i think they will laugh at you cos your the one spouting the same troll over and over while ignoring ppls solutions. I suppose reporting me instead of answering me is your way so i will forgive you for it, as going str8 for a meta solution has always been your kinds style. But the fact remains that a 150km DDD would allow snipers to take down a jammer outside the range of a DDD (if positioned correctly) thus allowing capital assets into a system. Not only that but also giving them opportunities to help take down a titan outside of DDD range as well. The only ships that would find it hard or near imposable to kill a titan would be "friggie and cruisers" blob spams. Lets face it if the DDD is removed what would be the point of flying a 200+ mil t2 sniper ship?...i can fly 50 T1 cruisers for the same cost in isk and be considerably more effective in them than in a single t2 BS. It will stop being eve online at that point and become zerg online instead hhmmm i wonder what alliance is renowned for that type of warfare.....
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:26:00 - [579] Originally by: lecrotta words Look at how stupid you are. 50 t1 cruisers will never be as effective as 50 battleships in dps or otherwise. Pilots are pilots, they arn't a resource that can be magically increased just because a certain ship is cheaper. A pilot can bring one ship OR another one. A single pilot cannot bring 50 t1 cruisers and use them in combat at the same time. The titans only real vunerability is to hostile caps specificly dreads. When dreads cannot be deployed against the titan, the titan can DD with impunity without worrying about being destroyed, 150km dd or 350km dd it wont matter. If you want zergs to be reduced in this game you have to nerf or remove things that encourage zerging. For instance, cyno jammer HP is so increadably high you need a large BS gang to have a chance at taking one out without taking significant losses. To take out a titan you need more caps on the field than your enemy, and a larger support fleet backing that up to keep the titan pinned down. Reduce blobs and zerging my ass. CCP has not added anything to this game that accomplishes this, only things that encourage it. --
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.06 12:46:00 - [580] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: lecrotta words Look at how stupid you are. 50 t1 cruisers will never be as effective as 50 battleships in dps or otherwise. Pilots are pilots, they arn't a resource that can be magically increased just because a certain ship is cheaper. A pilot can bring one ship OR another one. A single pilot cannot bring 50 t1 cruisers and use them in combat at the same time. The titans only real vunerability is to hostile caps specificly dreads. When dreads cannot be deployed against the titan, the titan can DD with impunity without worrying about being destroyed, 150km dd or 350km dd it wont matter. If you want zergs to be reduced in this game you have to nerf or remove things that encourage zerging. For instance, cyno jammer HP is so increadably high you need a large BS gang to have a chance at taking one out without taking significant losses. To take out a titan you need more caps on the field than your enemy, and a larger support fleet backing that up to keep the titan pinned down. Reduce blobs and zerging my ass. CCP has not added anything to this game that accomplishes this, only things that encourage it. I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be.

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:40:00 - [581] Originally by: lecrotta Did you only read those 2 words and ignore the rest cos you cannot answer them?. Report me if you must but i think they will laugh at you cos your the one spouting the same troll over and over while ignoring ppls solutions. I suppose reporting me instead of answering me is your way so i will forgive you for it, as going str8 for a meta solution has always been your kinds style. But the fact remains that a 150km DDD would allow snipers to take down a jammer outside the range of a DDD (if positioned correctly) thus allowing capital assets into a system. Not only that but also giving them opportunities to help take down a titan outside of DDD range as well. And you have yet to give a good reason why not apart from saying that titans can warp in and blow the DDD (an easily avoidable tactic tbh and hardly proof the ship is broken) in fact that proves the titan is not broken as it need tactics and timing to gain any kills or be effective. The only ships that would find it hard or near imposable to kill a titan would be "friggie and cruisers" blob spams. Lets face it if the DDD is removed what would be the point of flying a 200+ mil t2 sniper ship?...i can fly 50 T1 cruisers for the same cost in isk and be considerably more effective in them than in a single t2 BS. It will stop being eve online at that point and become zerg online instead hhmmm i wonder what alliance is renowned for that type of warfare..... If T1 "friggie + cruiser" swarm style warfare now has a counter (the titans DDD) then i suggest you try to use *"strategy, not swarming* - Tactics. Experience and treachery" instead of claiming that the game is broken just cos you cannot be bothered. Defeating multiple titans should be a thrilling and exciting in game tactical challenge to a commander and pvper not a reason to go crying to ccp (again) for another nerf. Originally by:** Draygo Korvan Look at how stupid i am. I totally fail to understand your point about a pilot being able to spam fifty t1 cruisers into a system for the price of one t2 BS. I am so moronic that i did not realize that you were talking about each pilot being able to bring 50 cruisers one at a time with 300 or so of his buddies and actualy thought you meant him bringing fifty himself all at the same time. Im such a fool for thinking that a 150km ddd is the same as a 250 or 350km ddd as my idea of combat seems to be sitting still in range and f1-f8 until he pops or i do. Totally ignoring the fact that a ddd at 150km max range a sniper can hit the titan safely but will also need to be aligned just in case of a warp in. I have no idea about the difference between zerging (ie: spamming low value ships over and over to achieve a objective) and large scale fleet ops (ie: capitals and other expensive asset to kill high value assets/ achieve objectives. Just to summerise i am clueless. Fixed.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:45:00 - [582] Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers or to a hostile capital fleet.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:06:00 - [583] Originally by: TypoNinja 'They spend more money they should win crap' as you put it is only half right, 'they spent more money so they have an advantage' would be the correct form And the question that is being answered is not "should they have an advantage?" the question that is being answered is "how much of an advantage should they have?". The answer is "less than they do now"
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 16:46:00 - [584] Originally by: lecrotta Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers but also to a hostile capital fleet. It becomes a cat and mouse game of "dodge the dictor swarm" as your enemy sends a two dozen interdictors at your fleet, attempting to bubble your battleships so they can warp at point blank and quad-DD them. Hey guys, we need to be on Grid X at X Time with that hostile POS because it's the only way to destroy the jammer/take down the tower itself! Even assuming a 150km nerf, all it would mean is more Titans being produced: four on the tower so you're REQUIRED to hit out to T2 sniper ranges, and then have your remaining eight off grid ready to warp to the dictors when they get ten bubbles up on the battleships. In the end you fail at sieging the tower because all your enemy does it continuously try to one-shot your entire fleet.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 16:47:00 - [585] Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:20:00 - [586] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 19:31:32 Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: lecrotta Why wouldn't 10 be vulnerable??? if you check bud it would take considerably more than 10 titans with 150km DDD to make a 200km or so dead zone around any object (like a jammer) when snipers can easily hit at 200km. Not only would there be huge gaps for the snipers to warp in and hit the target but as soon as the jammer fell those titans would be considerably out of position and vulnerable to not only the snipers but also to a hostile capital fleet. It becomes a cat and mouse game of "dodge the dictor swarm" as your enemy sends a two dozen interdictors at your fleet, attempting to bubble your battleships so they can warp at point blank and quad-DD them. Hey guys, we need to be on Grid X at X Time with that hostile POS because it's the only way to destroy the jammer/take down the tower itself! Even assuming a 150km nerf, all it would mean is more Titans being produced: four on the tower so you're REQUIRED to hit out to T2 sniper ranges, and then have your remaining eight off grid ready to warp to the dictors when they get ten bubbles up on the battleships. In the end you fail at sieging the tower because all your enemy does it continuously try to one-shot your entire fleet. A game of cat and mouse??..thats like a game of tactical maneuvering, of having spies listening in on the movements of said titans or tacklers?. Plus its only the jammer that needs to be taken down by BS only as after that you can use capitals and i doubt that many titan pilots will wish to try one shotting your ships with a capital/dread fleet around. Plus the fact that dictoring your fleet, warping in a titan and popping a DDD can be done with 1, 2 or 3 titans having 12 or more makes no difference. So now we have gone from a omg wtf unkillable/unbeatable group of 12 titans, to a bunch of 12 titans that need your guys not only to be tackled but if they miss a tackle are very much out of position and vulnerable to your fleet (although im not sure why 4 on the jammer are needed or how you think that those 4 can make a sniper fleet come in at t2 ranges on a 3d grid). Now maybe in the future when alliances have 20+ titans things may need to be looked at in regards to limiting the number of DDD blasts per grid or system or considering the way ppl nap it may even be a issue now but the fact is that removing the DDD dmg totaly is a huge mistake.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:26:00 - [587] Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Stopable with on grid bubbles maybe, 150km range is where bubbles will pull you out of warp, so a warping in titan with an optimum defensive bubble placement will still be in dd range of your fleet. However a fleet of battleships alone will not kill a titan with a pilot operating it. So saying a titan is vunerable to a fleet of battleships is simply not true. Its only vunerable if caps hostile to the titan can be deployed against that titan. Saying they would be vunerable at 150km is a misnomer because you cant stop the titan from getting within that range in the first place right out of warp. For the range reduction to work it would have to be lower than the maximum bubble pull range, like 60km or 30km. Note when I use the word vunerable, I mean at risk to be destroyed by. Shrikes titan in 9-9 was attacked by a huge mixed fleet that grew to around 250 pilots or greater, yet they could not break the titans tank until dreads loaded grid and entered siege. So no, a titan is not vunerable to a support fleet. With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:41:00 - [588] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: Seishi Maru I really hate DD, and would love them to be changed into something different. But I beg to disagree. If range was droped to 150 km then titans would be vulnerable to a Fleet of Battleships well deployed. Problem continues that.. 10 Titans would not be. Stopable with on grid bubbles maybe, 150km range is where bubbles will pull you out of warp, so a warping in titan with an optimum defensive bubble placement will still be in dd range of your fleet. However a fleet of battleships alone will not kill a titan with a pilot operating it. So saying a titan is vunerable to a fleet of battleships is simply not true. Its only vunerable if caps hostile to the titan can be deployed against that titan. Saying they would be vunerable at 150km is a misnomer because you cant stop the titan from getting within that range in the first place right out of warp. For the range reduction to work it would have to be lower than the maximum bubble pull range, like 60km or 30km. Note when I use the word vunerable, I mean at risk to be destroyed by. Shrikes titan in 9-9 was attacked by a huge mixed fleet that grew to around 250 pilots or greater, yet they could not break the titans tank until dreads loaded grid and entered siege. So no, a titan is not vunerable to a support fleet. With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range. Well at least your actually thinking of ways to kill it after a range reduction instead of repeating a blinkered rant like others. And im sure a 250 man or larger support/BS fleet can break the tank of a titan if you do not bring shuttles or noob ships and the like, but tbh that does not matter as if the jammer is hit instead of the titan then your caps can join the fun.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:51:00 - [589] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/05/2008 19:56:00 Originally by: Traeon DD's were never needed in the first place, and CCP apparently counted on them being so rare and hard to build that they'd never become overpowered. Than that's an epic failure. Who else if not CCP has the numbers at hand to plan such an important implementation? I mean.. how hard can it be: - 80 Trillion ISK in circulation - Easily more than a handful of players who alone can afford 60 bil in ship costs. Yeah, titans could indeed be counted on to be rare.. How about this: 150bil building costs Additional maintenance costs. Much like a POS. Probably 1bil per month ? Now we're talking serious spaceship business! Of course in return titans could retain most of their powerful advantages and should also receive a (much needed) hitpoint boost.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:56:00 - [590] Originally by: lecrotta A game of cat and mouse??..thats like a game of tactical maneuvering, of having spies listening in on the movements of said titans or tacklers?. Plus its only the jammer that needs to be taken down by BS only as after that you can use capitals and i doubt that many titan pilots will wish to try one shotting your ships with a capital/dread fleet around. Separate TS channel and cyno jammers. Quote: Plus the fact that dictoring your fleet, warping in a titan and popping a DDD can be done with 1, 2 or 3 titans having 12 or more makes no difference. So now we have gone from a omg wtf unkillable/unbeatable group of 12 titans, to a bunch of 12 titans that need your guys not only to be tackled but if they miss a tackle are very much out of position and vulnerable to your fleet (although im not sure why 4 on the jammer are needed or how you think that those 4 can make a sniper fleet come in at t2 ranges on a 3d grid). Now maybe in the future when alliances have 20+ titans things may need to be looked at in regards to limiting the number of DDD blasts per grid or system or considering the way ppl nap it may even be a issue now but the fact is that removing the DDD dmg totaly is a huge mistake. BoB has 12. A month ago they had 8. Three months ago they had 5. Six months from now they will have 16-17. How many Press-A-Button-And-One-Shot-Your-Enemy ships do you need for before you consider it to be broken?

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 20:16:00 - [591] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 20:21:36 Originally by: HydroSan Titans were designed as anti-blob ships. The problem with "anti-blob" is that "blobs" are not discriminated against according to their numbers. A Titan can take out a group of T2 snipers. It can take out a lone frigate. It can take out a roaming HAC gang. It has turned from anti-blob into anti-warfare, and whoever doesn't have at least four has absolutely no chance in surviving in 0.0. I did not say they were not a problem in fact ive said again and again they need changing but to remove them instead of reducing them would be a huge mistake. Like i have already said removing the DDD would make BS in large fleet ops a pointless and overly expensive ship as i along with 2 or 300 of my buddies could buy 50 t1 cruisers for the same price and just keep spamming fleets into a system until we wear down the enemy. Nothing can and nothing will ever really stop ppl from blobbing but the titan and a 150km ddd and maybe limiting the amount of DDD fired per grid per day/hour will force ppl to bring there own capitals, super capitals and BS if they want to take space, instead of spamming t1 friggie and cruiser crap (ie: zerging).
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:48:00 - [592] Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 06/05/2008 21:51:30 Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 06/05/2008 21:49:23 Originally by: lecrotta Well at least your actually thinking of ways to kill it after a range reduction instead of repeating a blinkered rant like others. And im sure a 250 man or larger support/BS fleet can break the tank of a titan if you do not bring shuttles or noob ships and the like, but tbh that does not matter as if the jammer is hit instead of the titan then your caps can join the fun. I think the DD is a problem yes. But I dont think it is the biggest problem. The biggest problem lies with the cyno jammer module. Its massive amount of HP, and low anchoring requirements dictates that a large fleet must spend a long time hammering at it to take it down, if there are multiple titans defending, the attacking fleet has to constantly warp in and out, which would make it take more than 10x as long to actually take it down (Note it takes roughly 25 seconds to warp a short distance while aligned then you have to count the seconds it takes to align back to warp in for another try, you end up spending a minute or more warping around while spending 10 seconds or so actually shooting. Even if you magically avoid all bubbles to prevent from getting dd'). A more immediate solution is to change jump bridges to function like system gates. Anything that can normally go through a system gate (includes frieghters) can use the jump gate. This makes it more difficult to put friendly caps in a friendly system without giving hostiles a chance to sneak a few of their own in (you know the strategy and thinking thing you like ranting about). Also, its very hard to keep a titan tackled at a fully armed and gunned faction pos. The gunners will just pick off your unreppable hic's and clean any dictors off. It just takes too long to take down the cynojammer with a reasonably sized fleet. And if you are dealing with more than a few titans (like 8) it becomes impossible to kill the cynojammer without some cap support to ward off the titans. ex. even goonfleet's titan dd'd bobs cynojammer attacking bs swarm, even though bob took down the jammer the titan got out unharmed. Another solution to the cyno-jammer + titan defense combo is to change the system requirements of the cynojammer to require all adjacent systems to have at least sov 1. This would create an automatic 'front line' between all alliances, allowing territory to change more easily along those lines, but give the defender a huge advantage behind those border systems. (As a side effect it will be more costly to maintain your space, so maybe we will see some new faces in 0.0). apparently the syn. for try that starts with a c and ends with a rack is wordfiltered.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:22:00 - [593] Originally by: Draygo Korvan With a lower than 150 km dd range it would be possible to use dictors to prevent titans from getting right ontop of your fleet, by making sure there are bubbles up inbetween the fleet and the current location of the titan that would pull the titan out of warp out of dd range. Hate to be a stickler for details, but you're thinking two-dimensionally and are wrong. You'd need a lot of interdictors to defend from even a 130km range Doomsday in that fashion. You can slice and dice it and play with the range, strong AoE is terrible and I'm happy to prove that if somebody really has trouble believing it.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:33:00 - [594] Originally by: lecrotta Spying is just one option as learning how to use a scanner properly is also a option as unless interdictors and titans can warp cloaked they will always be scanned long before they land giving a aligned fleet plenty of time to warp out. Hey you suck at fighting titans and are giving advice, nice. Titans are spotted leaving their initial PoS , because systems with titan-scale warfare (assuming you know, we're not talking about jump-ins which is where most doomsdaying totally prevents warfare in the first place) suffer minute-long lag. The time to enter warp, travel through a system and exit warp is unininhibited by lag though - so while a scanner is unable to actually function and an overview won't update, a Titan can land and Doomsday without issues. But of course, that's only a tiny problem compared to how dominating they are at controlling stargates or control towers - in one case, attackers are stuck in 100km+ worth of anchorable and overlapping bubbles, in the other case Titans don't need to warp to Doomsday and better yet face no risk at all. But hey, at least your amazing advice straight from 2004 tells us how NOT to avoid getting DDed under optimal conditions, away from PoSes or jump-ins. Nevermind that people have developed intelligence-gathering methods, relay structures and ways to compensate for latency far superior to what you're even imagining. You really are an expert and should tell us more.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:50:00 - [595] Edited by: lecrotta on 06/05/2008 22:54:16 Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg lag blah blah lag blah blah I am not interested in getting into a argument that relies on the fickle lag gods working totally in your favor and utterly against your enemy to give it credibility. In fact im not interested in anything anybody has to say on tactical issues if the invoke lag as anything other than a constant tactical issue that should alway be taken into account but not as a card blanch for one side or another.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 22:51:00 - [596] Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance. That IS the game balance, thats how wars work, in just about any game, and real life. You spend more money to either; field a bigger force than your defender can, or a better equipped force. Or perhaps even both. If an attacker insists on moving against a defender with both a smaller force, AND a poorly equipped force, then baring a cluster** from the defenders, they will win. That is expected behaviour, that is game balance. If it was possible to kill a titan with a battleship fleet worth less than a tenth of its cost, then you'd have a game balance problem. Look heres some easy math for you. 4x titans at a total of 200 billion isk before fittings. 2,000 x battleships at 200 billion isk. Now if you dont do something stupid like warp everybody into the titans all at once its pretty easy to deal with this problem from an even footing. Lets go with the most basic of tatics, holding a reserve force. Send in your first 250 battleships, start wailing away at the cyno jammer, you'll have it down in short order. 2x titans DDD to save the cynojammer any BS not uber tanked dies, everybody else is probably in structure, POS cleans up the rest. Send in next 250 BS, Same things happens. Send in thrid group, titans cant DDD anymore, enemy support fleet shows up. use group three to engage the titans and support fleet. If the titans didn't book it as soon as their DDD was used up, tackle them. Send in group four, rip the ** out of the cyno jammer, and start hot dropping dreadnoughts in to polish off the tower, if enemy caps in the area kill them too. Group four turns its attention to enemy support fleet and helps group three kick ass. (if you find your self short of warm bodies, split group three as needed to keep the enemy support occupied while you kill the jammer.) So with the most basic of tactics it only took me 100 billion isk, and I manged to take the field against better than two to one odds, probably more like 3 to one. For that, what I accomplished was amazing, I attacked a prepared enemy defensives position that was setup to ambush me, somewhere where the odds should have easily been in the defenders favour. Of course nobody fights like that, instead a blob costing 10-20 billion in total is sent in, and then people whine on the forums about how broken a titan is.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 23:21:00 - [597] Originally by: TypoNinja only took me 100 billion isk ... per day, per system. That's totally not imbalanced what so ever.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Gates of nim	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:32:00 - [598] The threat scalation should not be so high, you shouldn't pay double for doubling your effectiveness. You should pay double for a 50% or 30% increment. If not, the stablished power can not be defeated. Ever. You have done your job in an early time and now you can just sit there and see how others dye forever. Thats not fun. Thats not challenging. Thats not the ccp policy, you should be allowed to destroy them somehow with more pilots and a good plan. But not a plan in wich you need scalating numbers to thousands against singles. Furthermore that thousands creates lag and lag is good for titans and the task to get more and more people as 5 or six titans are the fleet to beat becomes impossible. So no, its not balanced. Being epic to destroy a titan its good when there are few of them, but now that they are becoming more and more common it's not the right thing for the game.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:16:00 - [599] Originally by: TypoNinja Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: TypoNinja :words: Spending more money than your enemy should not destroy game balance. That IS the game balance, thats how wars work, in just about any game, and real life. You spend more money to either; field a bigger force than your defender can, or a better equipped force. Or perhaps even both. If an attacker insists on moving against a defender with both a smaller force, AND a poorly equipped force, then baring a cluster** from the defenders, they will win. That is expected behaviour, that is game balance. If it was possible to kill a titan with a battleship fleet worth less than a tenth of its cost, then you'd have a game balance problem. Look heres some easy math for you. 4x titans at a total of 200 billion isk before fittings. 2,000 x battleships at 200 billion isk. Now if you dont do something stupid like warp everybody into the titans all at once its pretty easy to deal with this problem from an even footing. Lets go with the most basic of tatics, holding a reserve force. Send in your first 250 battleships, start wailing away at the cyno jammer, you'll have it down in short order. 2x titans DDD to save the cynojammer any BS not uber tanked dies, everybody else is probably in structure, POS cleans up the rest. Send in next 250 BS, Same things happens. Send in thrid group, titans cant DDD anymore, enemy support fleet shows up. use group three to engage the titans and support fleet. If the titans didn't book it as soon as their DDD was used up, tackle them. Send in group four, rip the ** out of the cyno jammer, and start hot dropping dreadnoughts in to polish off the tower, if enemy caps in the area kill them too. Group four turns its attention to enemy support fleet and helps group three kick ass. (if you find your self short of warm bodies, split group three as needed to keep the enemy support occupied while you kill the jammer.) So with the most basic of tactics it only took me 100 billion isk, and I manged to take the field against better than two to one odds, probably more like 3 to one. For that, what I accomplished was amazing, I attacked a prepared enemy defensives position that was setup to ambush me, somewhere where the odds should have easily been in the defenders favour. Of course nobody fights like that, instead a blob costing 10-20 billion in total is sent in, and then people whine on the forums about how broken a titan is. and where in hell you get 2000 BS pilots ready to fly at same time? Where in hell you get a node that can resist multiple jump ins of 200 + ships? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
ChalSto LOCKDOWN.	Posted - 2008.05.08 13:07:00 - [600] You only asked for tactics and a strategy, not for technical issues. In this case he answered your question Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb



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