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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:25:00 - [121] A no-flame-reply. Good to see for a change. I didn't bother to check those numbers, some guys ran it through and said something about 30, not 55. I took that at face value, so you might be correct, I'm too lazy to run EFT. At least it's good to know you bobbits agree it is broken. (Oh god, a Goon agreeing with Bob, Molle getting complimented by Goons for stabbing MC in the back, what's the world coming to :cripes:) The problem with Titans is they scale exponentially. 1 Titan by itself with a support fleet can be taken out. 2 Titans might be possible, 3 and more, well, just forget it. It's not that I'm advocating a nerf so we can overrun you easily, it's that Titans are breaking the game in 0.0. It's an arms race. Only those alliances who can field sufficient numbers will survive in any war in the future, the rest can go back to empire. You cannot take out a Titan supported by other Titans, except if you field more Titans, and if lag plays in your favor. Subcapitals are obsolete. My prediction is that war in 0.0 will eventually stalemate, just because alliances can jump 20+ Titans to any threatened system (with a Cynojammer), preventing those systems from changing Sov ever. The Doomsday is horribly broken.
zacuis	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:30:00 - [122] i have thought since i was in the fountain campaign while in d2 that titans dd was simply broken it has not made the game any more fun. we had titans and at the time it was as many as bob. and they just brought the battle to a halt both sides unwilling to fight cos the second they brouht in there fleet (subcapital) it was dead. it was a cat and mouse game to dd the others fleet. and it was completely boring. anything that mean the majority of the players in a fleet dont get to kill anything is game breaking. in short totally signed remove dd and replace it with something else plz
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.03.31 21:33:00 - [123] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 21:15:22 Originally by: Kingwood Oh hey, I see you were in QY6 yesterday too. Soz, since you're obviously an able FC, tell me how to take out 9 titans and 110 Caps in a system with 700 in local. (Without me having to bring in 10 titans and 120 Caps). Please explain: Why on earth should you be able to counter a superior fleet with an inferior one? If you leave the titans out of your numbers, how would you think you should counter the situation of 700 in local and 110 caps? If you're true to your previous statement, you probably think you should be able to handle that with 100 conventional and 50 caps.... Originally by: Kingwood Good job bringing CAOD into here. TBH, I'd say your side started that in the first place by trying to get the game changed just because you're run into someone you can't beat. Your side have more titans than BoB and still you're the ones crying Capitals without Titans don't obsolete subcapital fleets. I'm not even gonna respond to your last comment, you're in the wrong forum.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:14:00 - [124] DD's are not fine, never have been and were a mistake by CCP that goes against fundamental rules in EVE. It doesn't matter in the slightest who is abusing this currently because everyone will do or try doing it in the future. I'm against removing dd's because it's too late now, but it needs to be changed to comply with some eve fundamentals. What are these fundamentals? - Effectiveness dependant on sig radius. Even frigs should be able to tank a DD if they are setup to do so, sacrificing effectiveness in other areas. - "Stacking penality" or what I called diminishing returns feature, ie. space becomes "depleted" after a dd is used and for the next hour subsequent dd's do less damage. First dd does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. Untill this or something similar isn't through people will continue to amass titans because each titan becomes more valable than the previous ones due to the dd.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:30:00 - [125] Originally by: Traeon DD's are not fine, never have been and were a mistake by CCP that goes against fundamental rules in EVE. It doesn't matter in the slightest who is abusing this currently because everyone will do or try doing it in the future. I'm against removing dd's because it's too late now, but it needs to be changed to comply with some eve fundamentals. What are these fundamentals? - Effectiveness dependant on sig radius. Even frigs should be able to tank a DD if they are setup to do so, sacrificing effectiveness in other areas. - "Stacking penality" or what I called diminishing returns feature, ie. space becomes "depleted" after a dd is used and for the next hour subsequent dd's do less damage. First dd does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. Untill this or something similar isn't through people will continue to amass titans because each titan becomes more valable than the previous ones due to the dd. If you make them have diminishing returns you'll only make the problem worse. More and more and more will be required. And no, a godawful frigate should NOT be able to survive it. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:36:00 - [126] Originally by: Kingwood Capitals without Titans don't obsolete subcapital fleets. Damn.... Where were those goon whinings over carriers ruining the game. I'm sure they were around here somewhere.... Titan's doesn't obsolete sub-capital fleets. If that was so, why is 99% of 0.0 warfare still gang/fleet warfare? Why don't we see titans jumping around DD'ing left, right and center? Perhaps because your arguments are not correct??? Titans limit blobbing in some battles by making those (very few) battles mostly about capitals and the occational HIC's scrambling. ....and it is still only maybe 1% of 0.0 warfare.... Why is this such a huge problem? One point of view could also be that since cap pilots are sometimes sitting around for hours on end waiting, at least they should have some parts of the game where they're having some fun without being lagged out by blobbers. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:53:00 - [127] Originally by: Kerfira Titans limit blobbing in some battles Specifically, the battles that determine who owns the station and who doesn't. Quote: One point of view could also be that since cap pilots are sometimes sitting around for hours on end waiting, at least they should have some parts of the game where they're having some fun without being lagged out by blobbers. It's nice that you consider individual people (yes, people) who play the game and log in every day to be nothing more than a homogeneous "blob" of faceless torment that deserve being made completely useless by five or more guys mashing F1. Unfortunately, allowing five players to wipe out someones ship, a ship that person spent time making money for, fitting out, moving around, insuring, etc. when he's trying to defend or attack something doesn't seem very fun from a gameplay perspective. Hey, let me repeat the second last word from that sentence. Gameplay. GAME. People play this GAME, with all of it's flaws, lag, and other crap because everyone from the guy in the "crappy" little frigate to the guy flying the tricked out T2-fitted battleship has a role. Or did, until this game begame one of "whoever has the most supercap building dedication wins". How would you enjoy it if in Sins of a Solar Empire you built up this big fleet, went to attack a planet and then the enemy just nuked all of your non-capitals away with a single button push? How would you enjoy it if in Team Fortress 2 it became a game of whoever could build the most Level 3 sentries the fastest won? No one ship in EVE should outclass every other ship for subcapital fleet combat. Carriers, Motherships and Titans all have the same problems: they can engage in subcapital fleet combat extremely effectively. It's no goddamn wonder CCP thinks people consider them battleships because that's basically the role they're slowly but surely replacing. Sure, cyno jammers require you to use "conventional" battleships but after thats down (by "blobbing" it, no less) and you cyno into system you're basically home free and can switch back to capital ships.
Bozse	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:57:00 - [128] Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:58:00 - [129] Edited by: Kingwood on 31/03/2008 22:58:39 doublepost
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:58:00 - [130] Edited by: Kingwood on 31/03/2008 22:58:59 Edit: In response to Kerfiras last post Christ, you're obviously trolling. It's not only goons complaining about the doomsday, maybe you should read the thread again. And yes, DD's are going to go off right, left, and center in the near future when more titans are going to be fielded. I'm really tired of these forums and the ******** alt trolling, so I'm gonna call it a night. I have some more studying to do anyway.

Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:15:00 - [131] Sure didn't see this one coming. Although as a high sec miner I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Rasta we g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:15:00 - [132] Originally by: Katana Seiko Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? DD's hurt ALL surounding ships within 250km , INCLUDEING itself. So if 8 titans let of 8 DD's u have almost ALL of there capital fleet deep into there tanks. this gives the oposeing fleet a much bigger chance to take out the titans support. nothin is imposible. it just needs planing and alot of time for it to work.
Cailais VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:39:00 - [133] Seeing as I dont fly a Titan, or actually know anyone who does I hope I can comment here with a degree of impartiality. Eventually Titans and Capital ships will become very very common. Think back to how Battleships were a rarity, owned only by the wealthy. Now more or less everyone has one, or has one within easy reach. The problem, as I see it, is that capital ships are currently just big Battleships. Its rather like 'leveling up' in other games. Get a frigate, then a cruiser, then a BC then a BS then a carrier...etc etc. CCP then chose to add a 'Big F'in Gun' to Titans - no doubt it seemed a cool idea at the time. What the capital class vessels should be, in my view, are 'civilisation' vessels. Some people have likend them to 'flying stations' and thats not a bad analogy. A Titan should be an industrial core. Capable of producing equipment. Able to process ore, spawn ships, act as a mobile market and claim soveriegnty (or go some way towards it) simply by being there. It shouldnt be however a walking A bomb. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:48:00 - [134] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 23:52:50 Originally by: Dianabolic If you make them have diminishing returns you'll only make the problem worse. More and more and more will be required. And no, a godawful frigate should NOT be able to survive it. Incorrect. I'll explain... Under current mechanics, the total damage done increases linearly with each dd: 1x 70000 2x 140000 3x 210000 4x 280000 5x 350000 6x 420000 7x 490000 ... The diminishing returns mechanics as in my example decreases the usefulness of each additional dd. While dd'ing whole subcapital fleets is still possible it won't be possible more than once per system per hour (because the diminishing returns are system wide) and it's harder than before. 1x 70000 2x 105000 3x 122500 4x 131250 5x 135625 6x 137812 7x 138906 About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:05:00 - [135] Originally by: Rasta we Edited by: Rasta we on 31/03/2008 23:46:39 Originally by: Katana Seiko Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well? DD's hurt ALL surounding ships within 250km , INCLUDEING itself. So if 8 titans let of 8 DD's u have almost ALL of there capital fleet deep into there tanks. this gives the oposeing fleet a much bigger chance to take out the titans support. nothin is imposible. it just needs planing and alot of time for it to work. EDIT: maby not deep into there tanks but close to it Err not really. 8 DDs is like 550k dmg? Against an armor tanking caps ship you'll take out the sield and then maybe 50k into the armor, so figure 1/6 armor or less.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:06:00 - [136] Edited by: Gamesguy on 01/04/2008 00:07:35 Originally by: Bozse Edited by: Bozse on 31/03/2008 23:00:43 Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Edit: Super caps in general needs a buff in the tanking department though, to easy to gank once held down as it stands now and would motivate more open use of them in propper combat. I agree with this. Buff supercap tanks a lot, then nerf the DD some. Perhaps make it so it does more damage the closer you are? Like if the DD barely hits you from 200km away then you take only a couple thousand damage, where as if you were right next to the titan you'd take a hundred thousand. Oh and it would have a explosion radius like bombs, the number can be adjusted but something like 500 is a good number.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:58:00 - [137] Originally by: Bozse Edited by: Bozse on 31/03/2008 23:00:43 Combine the bomb like feature of the doomsday with it's current function but decrease the dmg range to 30k ish to keep the crowd controll feature around the titan it self and you might have a viable sollution. It can then be used as a tactical weapon at greater range with the bomb feature of the DD, it can use it as a last resort to shake tacklers and bubbles around it, or as a very specific tactical dmg weapon at closerange with the greater risk of needing to be within 30k to do the dmg. Edit: Super caps in general needs a buff in the tanking department though, to easy to gank once held down as it stands now and would motivate more open use of them in propper combat. I like all of this. Scripts can allow for a lot of fun effects so a DD can do different things depending on the situation, rather than a large iwin button. More base hp for MSs/Titans or a tanking bonus would be nice. It is VERY VERY important to squash problems BEFORE they break the game. Carriers were meant to be somewhat rare(I think, devs don't seem to like how common capitals are) but now boom 40 in a system all remote repping and launching fighters? That's a lot of lag just from that let alone the fleet needed to challenge such a group. So we didn't think about the mass-production of carriers and didn't fix anything in advance and now we are paying for it. Unless you like laggy, unplayable battles?
Ciara Daag Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:52:00 - [138] Originally by: Draygo Korvan Originally by: gordon cain Stay in Empire if you want to play in easy mode. When 7 titans is in one system they are not in the 50 others. So why not just go take something else. People are just ****ed they cant brute force their way into a system. Gordon Cain How do you beat 1 titan with a small gang, much less 11. At what DD rate per minute do titans actually become overpowered in your opinion. When titans start dding capfleets sieging pos's (as they are required to in order to take systems) and killing them, is that not overpowered? Imagine an alliance with 50 titans (we will get there) how do you take any of their systems without any capfleet you use against a pos being dd'd? I would love to hear your solution, because all I see is politically modivated posturing to try to maintain a status quo that is clearly unacceptable in the long run. When you cant force your way into a system with a small gang, a big one is required. I would love to see a nano-hac gang do anything strategic. What you do is bring 50 titans of your own of course. Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own?
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:56:00 - [139] Originally by: Ciara Daag Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? We are not talking about making Titans easier to kill. We are talking about removing the doomsday and remodeling the Titan into a strategic weapon rather than a tactical weapon. This is bold for emphasis.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 04:58:00 - [140] And here's a double post, just so you guys understand: Make Titans easier to kill: No. (As in, no, Titans should not (negatory) be easier to kill.) Remove the Titans tactical ability against subcapitals: Yes. (As in, yes, remove the doomsday and make it a mobile station.) I hope this guide has been useful.

Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:34:00 - [141] Originally by: Ciara Daag What you do is bring 50 titans of your own of course. Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? Thank you for this. I suggest you go over your own comment with deliberation, understand what you just said, and the implications of it. Then come back here.
Jellygoop The Gravedigger Company	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:37:00 - [142] Originally by: Ort Lofthus Fixes should address that the DD effect is more or less ok but the ability to do it rapidly is a problem. Things like 1 week cooldowns LOL Originally by: hired goon Holy crap! Now I remember why I was Caldari. *hired goon humps a Paradise Cruise Missile
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:38:00 - [143] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Ciara Daag Why do you think that you can take out 500billion isk worth of cap ships without 500billion isk worth of your own? We are not talking about making Titans easier to kill. We are talking about removing the doomsday and remodeling the Titan into a strategic weapon rather than a tactical weapon. This is bold for emphasis. Protip: I believe that was a sarcastic fakepost.
Kingwood The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:46:00 - [144] After reading all of the responses here I will believe anything.
A Squirrel BladeRunners INC	Posted - 2008.04.01 06:52:00 - [145] I have read this thread, and followed the thoughts back and forth. While I see the merit on both sides I don't see the DD getting out of hand, or causing it to become harder for people to get into 0.0 space. It takes a long time to get into a titan and be able to fire a doomsday. and yes stacking 8, 10 or even 15 of them in the same area would be nasty as hell for anyone attacking them. but at what cost. Yes more titans are being made, easy way to counter this is kill them in production. yes they will be guarded, thats alot of isk tied up in something that goes boom if the tower goes down. Currently there is no free 0.0 space that a small alliance can move into. why either it's taken claimed, or so freakin deep they have to nap all of the north and spending days flying just to get there. dooms days will become more prevalent in this game if something isn't changed, but that doesn't mean thats a bad thing. the biggest problem in eve right now is lag, 700+ people on the same grid of a system makes it almost impossible to fight, bt should you really bring 700+ people to a fight, if a battle was say 1 titan 30 cmaller cap ships against the same on the other side, it would go alot smother. the solution I see that is needed is two fold. 1 change how POS warfare is done. what the changes need to be made I don't know, I have only taken part in two pos battles, and one of them the other side never showed up for the second half. 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. what does all this have to do with DDD's sure if you bunch them up in one place they can be nasty. but think about it, 1 yo need cynos to take them anywhere, 2 they need a support fleet to keep them alive against a well thought out attack, 3 they are massively expensive and take a long time to build. Personaly I think the reason we didn't see a build up like this before, was because the expense being put out during the war, to keep it going, was limiting the excess money now being put into titans, and the fact that the two sides would hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. If these two thing come round again I can say we will see a decline rather than an increase in the number of titans.
Yuki Nagato	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:09:00 - [146] Originally by: A Squirrel hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. Sovereignty Level 4
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:20:00 - [147] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 01/04/2008 07:21:56 Originally by: A Squirrel snip. the solution I see that is needed is two fold. 1 change how POS warfare is done. what the changes need to be made I don't know, I have only taken part in two pos battles, and one of them the other side never showed up for the second half. 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. what does all this have to do with DDD's sure if you bunch them up in one place they can be nasty. but think about it, 1 yo need cynos to take them anywhere, 2 they need a support fleet to keep them alive against a well thought out attack, 3 they are massively expensive and take a long time to build. Personaly I think the reason we didn't see a build up like this before, was because the expense being put out during the war, to keep it going, was limiting the excess money now being put into titans, and the fact that the two sides would hunt down and kill titans before they came out of production. If these two thing come round again I can say we will see a decline rather than an increase in the number of titans. A few counterpoints. 1. Killing titans in production has become a lot more difficult. Previously one could attack a capital shipyard and come back 4 or 5 days later to finish it off after the POS came out of reinforced. Under the new sovereignty system, all capital shipyards for major alliances will be in Sov 4 systems. Which means that first you need to assault a nearby Sov 3 station system, conquer it, wait another week, then put the production POS into reinforced and come back to finish it off a day or two later. You're looking at an operation that will take a minimum of 2 weeks, requiring a full assault on a station system (POS-spam will be needed) and two cynojammers to be taken down. Much less viable than previously. 2. Titans only prevent blobbing for sides that don't have them/don't live under cynojammers. At the same time, to take out a titan you need a pretty big fleet. You cannot take out a cynojammer protected by a titan without a big blob. You cannot take out a titan under a cynojammer without a big blob. You most certainly cannot take out 5 titans under a cynojammer without a HUGE blob. 3. It is not the playerbase deciding how they play. Its the game-mechanics. Players just adapt to the mechanics that CCP creates. CCP should change the POS mechanics so people don't have to blob to accomplish objectives. 4. Titans are not that expensive, I think you underestimate how much isk big alliances can make from moonmining at the moment.
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:20:00 - [148] Originally by: A Squirrel 2 The playerbase needs to change the way it plays. Massive blob combat is just a crappy way to go. it hurts everyone involved and isn't very fun. Yes many people think the way to beat a 20 man gang is with a 40 man gang. no I have seen a 10 man gang stop beat back and destroy a 32 man gang, how proper tactics, and the ability to know when to rn and when to attack. oddly enough we got messages from the 32 man gang saying that while they lost they had fun as we actually challenged them. Yes clearly it's the players fault. With 1000's of people trying to destroy each other clearly no alternative strategies have ever been tried or theorycrafted and it's purely a lack of imagination. I am absolutely positive this is the case
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:42:00 - [149] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Unfortunately, allowing five players to wipe out someones ship, a ship that person spent time making money for, fitting out, moving around, insuring, etc. when he's trying to defend or attack something doesn't seem very fun from a gameplay perspective. Purely depends on whether you want your game to be challenging or whether you want it to be a "hello-kitty happy-happy" land. I really do have nothing against the wrong decision from an FC having harsh consequences. Originally by: Yuki Nagato Or did, until this game begame one of "whoever has the most supercap building dedication wins". Nothing like rewriting reality to suit your arguments...... Something like 99% of 0.0 combat is sub-capital combat. A group can be eminently effective without them. You can't build big empires without them, but why the hell should building big empires be without big effort? Originally by: Yuki Nagato How would you enjoy it if in Sins of a Solar Empire you built up this big fleet, went to attack a planet and then the enemy just nuked all of your non-capitals away with a single button push? I'd be pretty **ed..... at myself for putting my fleet in that position! Originally by:** Yuki Nagato No one ship in EVE should outclass every other ship for subcapital fleet combat. And titans doesn't! Originally by: Yuki Nagato Carriers, Motherships and Titans all have the same problems: they can engage in subcapital fleet combat extremely effectively. It's no goddamn wonder CCP thinks people consider them battleships because that's basically the role they're slowly but surely replacing. Sure, cyno jammers require you to use "conventional" battleships but after thats down (by "blobbing" it, no less) and you cyno into system you're basically home free and can switch back to capital ships. I see. That's probably the reason BoB used 100+ battleships in QY6 after they broke in. This makes so much sense. Titans are worthless without a support fleet. A conventional fleet is still powerful without a titan (or other caps). Your whole argument reeks of you not wanting hard challenges. Hopefully that's not the direction CCP want the game to take (ref below quote). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kingwood	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:51:00 - [150] Oh christ. University of Caille has secretly amassed a fleet of titans AND knows how to beat Titan and Capital blobs with sub capitals. Jesus, time to quit the game.



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