Originally by: Ranger 1

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To be frank, if you are putting pulses on your nano-Zealot... your doing it wrong. Unless of course you are merely acting as a screen for your nano-Cerbs along with your nano-Rapiers to keep tacklers and lone wolves off of them. In that case if you are in range of the main fleet and actually have to worry about incoming damage... again... your doing it wrong.


We also seem to be avoiding talking about the Vagabond suddenly, interesting.

Again, you know exactly what I'm saying GO. I'm trying to be gentle, but I think your perception is colored by that Zealot loss to a Crow and a Raven a few days ago.

Just relax, you'll still be just as effective as you are now...

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Originally by: Gneeznow

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It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.

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Originally by: GoldSnake

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Originally by: Gneeznow

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It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.

If you can afford to put expensive mods on a ship to make it go faster now, you'll be able to do it afterwards, and you will still be faster than less expensively equipped ships (post-patch)

the truth hurts eh I'll probably be burned alive by my PL brosef's later for this but it is the sad truth that abusive of nano-fleets like this by alliances like mine is what has caused this change.

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Probaly true tbh, we'll adapt and ****face still so *shrug*

Wow I'm +1'ing to Gneez =[

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Originally by: techzer0

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Like a few other people have said, one step at a time CCP! Mass changes like this is only asking to break something, change one... wait... change another. Multiple annoying "hotfix" downtimes to "fix" the last "fix" 0are a bit ******ed and we've been through it with almost every large patch that changes a lot of stuff at once.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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PL 30 man drake gangs with 10 falcons.
**** yeah.

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Originally by: Zabijucha

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Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless.

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Originally by: Ethyn

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I'll keep my comments short and sweet. (relatively)

I fly ceptors. It's an addiction really. I fly expensive fast ceptors. No matter how fast I am a huggin or rapier can ruin my day quite nicely. (that or a crash) I do agree that ships the size of small planets should not be allowed to go as fast as a ceptor.

But if you slow down ceptors you make them nothing more than shooting practice. How am I suppose to tackle if I can't live long enough to do so?

That being said I see that ceptors appear to be getting hit the least by the nerf bat.

What I really don't want though, is my ceptor to be slowed down so that it can be hit by missiles. A ship with 10 times as much equipment for propulsion should be able to outspeed a stinking missile.

My suggestion would be to increase the amount of inertia created by using a MWD. This would keep us from being able to orbit at high speeds, but still allow us to break off and get away.

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 21:57:10

Originally by: Ranger 1

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To be frank, if you are putting pulses on your nano-Zealot... your doing it wrong. Unless of course you are merely acting as a screen for your nano-Cerbs along with your nano-Rapiers to keep tacklers and lone wolves off of them. In that case if you are in range of the main fleet and actually have to worry about incoming damage... again... your doing it wrong.


We also seem to be avoiding talking about the Vagabond suddenly, interesting.

Again, you know exactly what I'm saying GO. I'm trying to be gentle, but I think your perception is colored by that Zealot loss to a Crow and a Raven a few days ago.

Just relax, you'll still be just as effective as you are now...

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Oh hey look you brought kills and losses into it, I can't say I'm surprised

While we're being all grown up why don't you go blob a gate in a cynojammed system with 40 carriers, 10 motherships and 5 titans, and then whinge because you still can't catch nanogangs


Ok now seriously, this missiles v. turrets thing has been done for years, they both have their benefits and downsides when dealing with speed, I can't be bothered arguing about something that really doesn't relate that much to the original issue and you seem to be missing the fact that I dont CARE if speed is nerfed, I just don't like the way CCP uses heavy handed blanket nerfs to achieve something they could do with a couple of better thought out changes.

They said it themselves; they spent 5 hours between 4 of them working on an issue which has been in the game for the best part of THREE YEARS.

Oh also check the zealot loss prior to the one I lost to hungarian farmers, hey look beams!


I was just giving you a poke in the arm GO, no harm intended.

And I quite agree that these swooping changes are going to have to looked at VERY carefully before implementation... but I think they have promise. We'll have to see.

But you are busted on the Zealot argument though... I "knew" you understood exactly what I was saying.

/Ranger 1 goes away chuckling and muttering under his breath about Pandemic pilots that pretend not to know how to fly a nano-zealot properly...

Originally by: abzzo

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Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.

Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO

A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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/Ranger 1 goes away chuckling and muttering under his breath about Pandemic pilots that pretend not to know how to fly a nano-zealot properly...

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Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni

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While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;

Originally by: "Nozh"

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Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.

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In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.

There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.

As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.

Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.

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Originally by: J Valkor

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Originally by: abzzo

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Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.

Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO

A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...

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You do realize that just because a missile hits does not mean it is doing full damage?

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Originally by: Wesley Baird

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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PL 30 man drake gangs with 10 falcons.
**** yeah.

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No, just 30 man carrier gangs on the gates...killing everything with neuts...one blast of neut+MWD reactivation delay...everything pops...

Plus we get CCP provisioned fighter lag...good times!!!!

Only need two ships now, ratting raven and carrier...truly caps online exactly what CCP wanted...

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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But you are busted on the Zealot argument though... I "knew" you understood exactly what I was saying.

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Originally by: Zabijucha

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Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless.
Tkanks CCP, I got only one mini recon char skilled,now all ships I like and I can use are broken.
Simple you do not respect people who invest time and money in your game. Better go under whine this all pvp crips. Because they are so stupid that they do not know how to counter nano.

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Originally by: Kerfira

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1. Why are your scouts so bad they didn't warn you about the carrier blob so you could go around it?
2. How long does it take for carriers to lock small targets, and how many times can you warp out in that time?

Unfortunately, you'll have to THINK now when playing EVE, and you'll have to face a risk similar to everyone else who're not nano'ed

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Originally by: Mr Mozzie

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Edited by: Mr Mozzie on 25/07/2008 13:15:12
This is [not] very fair for those people who have spent billions on snake sets, officer speed mods etc. The value of their investment will be destroyed overnight.

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Originally by: Markas Crais

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Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni

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While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;

Originally by: "Nozh"

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Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.

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In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.

There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.

As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.

Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.

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QFT.

And now what's going to happen to my Vindicator's MWD cap bonus? It'll be useless now when I can just fit an AB. Good job promoting the blob CCP! You should look at issues like server stability, or hell, overview bugs before you even attempt to fix speed tanking. Seriously, speed isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound. If the people who complain about getting popped by nanos actually used "strategy and tactics" like you said, they would have a Rapier or neuts in their gang setups.

What's the point in spending billions of isk on mods/implants when you're at the same playing field as the guy who doesn't have them? What's the point to making isk at all then if you don't utilize it to have an advantage over another player?

I guess we'll be seeing a lot more spidertanking BSes to combat groups of a larger size. Or are you going to nerf that as well?

Epic fail CCP. Make small tweaks first before you plan on changing things that can have unforseen consequences to the combat system. Besides, if you didn't intend speed to get so "ludicrous" why did you give us the option? You're trying to cover up your screw up with another screw up.

This blog needed more thought and foresight before it was released to the public.

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Originally by: abzzo

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Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.

Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO

A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...

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Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel

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Reduction in ludicrous speeds is all fine and well but give us a way to mess with missiles in the same way that tracking disruptors can be used to mess up the optimal range/falloff or tracking off turrets.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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