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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:44:00 -
[1]
For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email
"It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." |
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:48:00 -
[2]
Glad to hear that this has been looked at. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:53:00 -
[3]
Quote:
Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
CCP, my faith in you is restored.
Now if you could adress the dyspro/prom issue, too... ------------------------------------------
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:54:00 -
[4]
NOW we will see who whines loudest... |
The TX
Gallente Earth Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:55:00 -
[5]
I prefered the Chinese to English translated version in that thread that got locked. I didn't understand a word of that either, but it was funny. -------------------- [Signature]
[/Signature]
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:56:00 -
[6]
CCP have effectively killed small gang/solo PvP in EVE if even half of these changes go though.
Glad to see the company that stands firm hasn't caved to uneducated whines yet again.
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Space Flyer
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:56:00 -
[7]
THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 10:58:59 As I said in the thread about the translated version, this removes a blasterboats ability to get in range (MWD deactivation) and stay in range (Web nerf).
I like the idea of reducing web effectiveness, and balancing speeds across the ship classes, that's a good idea. Don't kill blasterboats in the process though? -
DesuSigs |
Stavros
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:57:00 -
[9]
ABOUT TIME TOO! NERF THOSE NANOS! --
OH GOD ENTITY KILLED MA SIGNATURES |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:57:00 -
[10]
You nerfing my Snakes to 50% of their current effectiveness ?!!!!!
My left arm is tingling, I am having difficulty breathing, I see spots.....
Dear God Almighty what are you doing?!!!!!!!
Other than that... I will re-read....
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 25/07/2008 11:00:29 well its been a good few years but clearly someone at ccp has decided its time to call it.
yeah blastboats needed nerfing long live overpowered pulse geddons!
edit: hold on i can fly force recons... i am invincible! -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:58:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:01:39 Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships and tracking will become a whole lot more important, AB ships will be able avoid slow trackers, very intresting
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: XxAngelxX on 25/07/2008 11:02:16 Thanks so much for this CCP!
I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:00:00 -
[14]
warp disruptor shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
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Groves111
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:01:00 -
[15]
Uhh... What? Are we going to see a 50% reduction in other areas of game play? I mean without the ability to roam into enemy territory on my own and actually kill things, I'd like tanked ships to have a reduction as well. Other than that, good game guys, you have effectively killed solo and small gang pvp right there and are just promoting larger and larger gangs. ---
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Kwa Kaine
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:01:00 -
[16]
And so, CCP take one more step towards blob online.
EVE Online Customer Support <- It would be nice if this actually existed.
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:02:00 -
[17]
Then you need to actually boost ABs, and I mean boost them. Seriously, make them more viable in PVP then they are now. Even a 30% boost will probably soften the blow and will not cause such disparity as it will become.
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:03:00 -
[19]
Let's nerf damage, resistance, and totalHP by 50% too, **** yeah.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
Because getting into range isn't a problem at all.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:04:00 -
[21]
O H M Y G O D.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:08:48
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Yea just wondering how well a blaster ship will track an AB ship with 50% web might end up being the long awaited tempest boost and can minmatar recons get a web strenth bonus to replace painter bonus
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:06:00 -
[23]
Edited by: CCP Nozh on 25/07/2008 11:10:46
Originally by: Stab Wounds warp disruptor shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
Actually it's only the "Warp Scramblers" which have also been adjusted to range from 7.5km to 15km max (officer)
Warp Disruptors will remain the same.
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:07:00 -
[24]
Phobos price set to rise...
AB, mwd, short scram, injector. Long scram in high.
mmmmm...lovely. Every other gank blaster... well... ab for your mwd and a lot of praying. I don't see a nano nerf. How am I going to get a vagabond inside 7.5km? I can't even get it into web range.
No nerf here. |
Wil Smithx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:08:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Wil Smithx on 25/07/2008 11:08:58
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 10:58:59 As I said in the thread about the translated version, this removes a blasterboats ability to get in range (MWD deactivation) and stay in range (Web nerf).
I like the idea of reducing web effectiveness, and balancing speeds across the ship classes, that's a good idea. Don't kill blasterboats in the process though?
The blasterboat is already dead, this is just another nail in the coffin.
Theres not any reason to use blasters if you can use torps or lasers now. Even projectiles get to hit at 20km... Blasters need a damage increase imo
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Zaskarr
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Zaskarr on 25/07/2008 11:10:47 In before nano*** QQ. Ah, too late.. CCP, don't get discouraged by all the whining you'll read here. These changes are needed, no matter what a vocal minority shouts. Protip to all: first read the blog, THEN poast! __________________ How do I shot web? |
Benedic
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:11:00 -
[27]
Killing eve one nerf at at time.
Enjoy your blobs.
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Smilla Snow
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:11:00 -
[28]
Sound nice and i agree that it need some rework.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:12:00 -
[29]
It's been a long time coming. I'm glad to see that speedtanking will no longer be the only effective way to fight in small groups.
I don't suppose you guys could fit in a bit of love for the Raptor too while you're at it? It would be nice to not have all of the other tackleceptors not run circles around it. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:12:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:12:17
Originally by: Zaskarr In before nano*** QQ. Ah, too late.. CCP, don't get discouraged by all the whining you'll read here. These changes are needed, no matter what a vocal minority shout here. Protip to all: first read the blog, THEN poast!
not sure why nano users would cry, sure they going slower but the change looks to make speed fits a proper ship fit with 50% webs, vagabond seems untouched by the changes
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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Phrixus Zephyr
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:12:00 -
[31]
So this is basically a titan cynoing Arazu alt buff?
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:13:00 -
[32]
While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Verite Rendition It's been a long time coming. I'm glad to see that speedtanking will no longer be the only effective way to fight in small groups.
Yeah, now there will be no way to fight effectively in small groups.
Great change.
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Drenan
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:13:00 -
[34]
AT LAST!!
/me sits down with popcorn to watch the flood of nano*** tears that will be generated by this wonderful news from CCP.
Three cheers for Nozh!
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:13:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 25/07/2008 11:15:03
Originally by: CCP Nozh
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
we will heed whining, finally submit and nerf all other races accordingly... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Randomness16
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:15:00 -
[36]
Nano-er tears are so much more satisfying than carebears
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Siqul
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:15:00 -
[37]
Wow, you can really tell which alliances use nano's the most, huh? On the flipside, this brings speed back to where it should be, with more reliance on player skill rather than who's ship has the highest passive regen and speed.
Long live our Utopian-beard-loving overlords?
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:15:00 -
[38]
I love the proposals in the blog!
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:15:00 -
[39]
My first thoughts are that you fail on the final point made in the goals "Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic." With yet another speed nerf (already had two) you make guerrilla warfare less and less viable. The only thing that makes it possible for a small gang to fight a larger gang is the ability to "speed tank". In other words, the fact that missiles and drones can't hit you, and that larger ships have trouble hitting smaller ships at speed is the ONLY thing keeping you alive. If you take this away, all you will do is give every advantage to the blob. It seems to me that far from discouraging blob warfare, CCP actually seek to encourage it. Guess this is the end of the lag free fight :(
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
QFT would love to hear it.
--------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
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Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:16:00 -
[41]
Sounds good, but I'm worried about how it will affect blaster ships. A has been mentioned, they need an MWD to get in range and they need a web to stay there. The warp scrambler change will hurt close range cruisers a lot, and while it will have less effect on blaster battleships the web nerf will be a big problem. |
Deros
Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:16:00 -
[42]
the only question that i would like to see answered by CCP is how they intend for small gangs to engage larger forces with these new changes. will it still be possible, or will it simply become a case of more ships wins.
D
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:18:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 25/07/2008 11:19:15 I will only support any changes to the current speed mechanics iff:
-Ships that worked only on speed tanking REMAIN speed tankers, but not stupidly fast that they're untouchable against weapon systems/tactics specifically designed to get them. (note: Vaga, inties) -AB's become viable speed boosts in emergencies (overheat bonus boost. Having to fit an MWD as "required" in today's PvP is gimping setups that work very well on just the AB) -That CCP take a serious look at the implications of any speed change in correlation between long-range and short-range PvP. -that CCP consider the small-gang warfare vs big blob implications. Hit-and-run should still work, only not as overpowered. -
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Crae Matreki
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:18:00 -
[44]
A very interesting alteration.. it opens up all sorts of new ship tactics!
Am I right in thinking that only a short-range scrambler is intended to deactivate an MWD?
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Jinx Barker on 25/07/2008 11:20:47
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
I agree with this 100% - in order to achieve so-called "ridiculous" speed in game one has to invest heavily into it. If someone is willing to put on the line:
1) High Grade Snake Set - 3 Billion ISK (Moderate Price) 2) Shaqil's Implant - 500 Mill (Moderate Price) 2) 2x Polycarbs T2 - 800 Mill (Moderate Price)
We are talking 4.3 Billion ISK just in the few components, then it is indeed something "special." When Pirate implants were introduced, it was said, that "having a full set will mean that it is something really unique, and expensive." At this point I do not see anything but devaluation of the time and effort that was put into building a "Speedy Gonzales" setup - since for me, personally, it took almost a year and one hell of a lot of ISK.
Ok, and where is the "Guerilla Warfare" thing? Or added boost to ABs to make them more viable as alternative to a "must have" MWD?
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[46]
Well what will be left for minmatar ships now? Speed is their only advantage currently over other races ships for most classes. I hope to hell that CCP are considering how minnie ships are balanced with other races after this change..
Also agree with other ppls comments that this seems to be another step in encouraging blobbing tactics.
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 25/07/2008 11:24:53 Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 25/07/2008 11:22:43 Great. Fantastic. Let's all go back to blob in sniper fleets cos that's so much more fun.
Why not just make the entire cluster dead space while you're at it.
Originally by: "Jinx Barker" stuff about money, time and effort to get a decent speed setup
<-- they don't really care much about the individual player, or even minorities, and especially not if you're been around for years playing the game. They need lots of new players.. and the new players haven't spent a year getting a snake set.... or whatever cool thing got nerfed.
CCP.. please... just implement scripts (kinetic damping & engine damping) on webbers BEFORE trying such a huge re-balance. The odds of the changes seriously breaking the game for many of us seems unwarranted?
Rabies is unexpected ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004 |
Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[48]
Will Rapier/Huginn receive an increased bonus to counter the drop in module stats? Or will they become useless? -- DEVS get multiple CPUs/Cores per system and all will be forgiven.
Parallel Python |
Primnproper
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[49]
The rest of it I can see the need for, but....
Quote: Warp scramblers (the close range ones), are due for a complete makeover. Our current idea is to have MWD's deactivate as soon as they get hit by their effect, and continue to be disabled until the effect is lifted.
WTF I mean really, is there any reason for this, other than because some people can't cope with the fact that a mwd has warp in the name and wasn't effected by them.
Say goodbye to anyone ever flying a short range intie then, its just totally unnessisary on top of all the other changes.
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Kwa Kaine
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:20:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Quotin dis ^^
Also is it me or did the blaster mega just get ****ed in the ass?
EVE Online Customer Support <- It would be nice if this actually existed.
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:20:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe CCP have effectively killed small gang/solo PvP in EVE if even half of these changes go though.
This.
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Cosy
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:20:00 -
[52]
adioooooooooooooooos to small gangs
first get your server ready for big fights THEN kill small pvp gang
if i remember well some time ago u said small pvp need a boost and u make this ................. SEAMS FW militia cry alot
PD: i never fly a nano HAC
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Any complaints can be directed towards our Music Director
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Jackie Fisher
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:21:00 -
[53]
So we'll need 3 modules to tackle instead of 2 and still need to get within 10KM of an MWDing ship to slow it down (overloading/faction goodies excepted).
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:21:00 -
[54]
I can't stop laughing. Thanks Nozh.
In case anyone wants to quit. Please think of me and hand over your stuff before you leave. Thanks in advance.
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:21:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Deros *WORDS" ...it simply become a case of more ships wins.
D
deros promoted to head of PL tactics.
recruitment now open must be able to fly a drake t2 tank and missiles. -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Crae Matreki A very interesting alteration.. it opens up all sorts of new ship tactics!
Am I right in thinking that only a short-range scrambler is intended to deactivate an MWD?
That's what it says.
Prenerf: Range needed to stop a vagabond: 9km. Or 71km with nice huggin. Postnerf: 7.5km, or about 30km with a nice billion officer fitted Scrambler.
And they're calling it a speed nerf... weird. Looks like a huge buff. You go slower, and are harder to catch because of it. weird man.
Minmatar just can't get enough buffs it seems. Just keep on stacking them up. |
Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:21:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Raquel Trotter Well what will be left for minmatar ships now? Speed is their only advantage currently over other races ships for most classes. I hope to hell that CCP are considering how minnie ships are balanced with other races after this change..
Also agree with other ppls comments that this seems to be another step in encouraging blobbing tactics.
if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:22:00 -
[58]
and as said earlier this makes arazu the new rapier
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Zaskarr
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kelron Queldine Sounds good, but I'm worried about how it will affect blaster ships. A has been mentioned, they need an MWD to get in range and they need a web to stay there. The warp scrambler change will hurt close range cruisers a lot, and while it will have less effect on blaster battleships the web nerf will be a big problem.
So you'll have reason to fit an AB instead of MWD. This is also first implementation, it may change. __________________ How do I shot web? |
shimmyckus
Minmatar Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:23:00 -
[60]
Oh well...
Hope then CCP will bring back 30 and 90 days GTC after this changes so everyone can afford to have couple noob scouts before they decide to go anywhere solo...
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
boohoo my overpowered nano ship has been nerfed.
your stuff give it.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:23:00 -
[62]
Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Sid Zero on 25/07/2008 11:25:34
Originally by: Dr Slaughter Great. Fantastic. Let's all go back to blob in sniper fleets cos that's so much more fun.
No no wait wait! Lets go GATECAMPING! YAY! Nano and cloaking were the only ways of getting through a gatecamp, and it's only a matter of time until cloaking is nerfed to hell too! Weee!
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lt Angus and as said earlier this makes arazu the new rapier
When DT ends, I am buying them all. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[65]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Some quick observations-
Blaster ships, which are already slower in the game than they ever have been (on average) due to the current most effective setups being lots of plates and armor rigs (both providing speed penalties) will be even slower, due to normalizing MWD speeds across the board.
Then we have max web effectiveness reduced to 50-60%, to the point that blasters will never be able to track targets well enough to hit because of how broken the tracking model is. Once you get close enough to use blasters, the target is either still and you're hitting, or it's moving, and you're not. There is no middle ground. So even a slight increase in transversal equals zero effective DPS.
Ships with 'extra' mid slots, like say, the Claw, will theoretically be able to mount a 24km warp disruptor and then a 7.5km warp scrambler that kills an MWD. Once that warp scram is on the target, it's dead in the water. Anyone want to guess as to the price speculation of ships with extra mids? Maybe the Myrmidon might be useful once again. Hmm, Sac and Ishtar also have extra mids... Broadsword... Phobos...
I see blaster ships being crushed by these changes, missile ships buffed, a LOT, lasers improving due to blaster ships being reduced to almost zero, and speed fit ships benefiting greatly, as nothing will really change to their overall effectiveness, save more vulnerability to missiles. They won't be decreased in speed enough to be bothered by drones. Guns still won't track them. Only missiles will improve against nano ships. And if no nano ship will come within 15-17km of a ship for fear of being webbed, how do you figure that a 7.5km MWD killing warp scram is going to get any closer to said ship? Magic?
These changes will affect the slower (i.e. 'normal') ships the most, and affect the speed fit ships the least, even though speed fit ships will be showing the largest total performance change. An Ishtar going 3800m/sec can afford to lose 1000m/sec off the top and still perform very well. A Blasterthron going 1000m/sec after accelerating for 30 seconds can't afford to lose 100 or even 50m/sec off of it's top speed.
With lasers much improved since the last patch with the EM resist nerf, you might as well just remove blasters from the game entirely. There isn't enough of a DPS difference between the two to warrant the use of blasters once you consider the improved range and tracking of lasers, and the lack of ammo consumption.
Blaster ships have been nerfed every patch since RMR. This will probably be the end of them for good.
P.S.
50-60% max web? WTF? Everyone will just MWD/AB back to the gate and escape unless double webbed ffs. Now I'll have to fit a second web or a 7.5km scram on my Hype instead of a sensor booster. Yuck.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[66]
With AB being *****ble at the same time than MWD and the Webifier nerf, it is pretty clear that CCP want dedicaced speed-tankers to be really close, orbiting 2km away, slowed by the web but not enough to really take damage from the main weapons of hteir target.
The added utility of warp scramblers also sound very nice, and disruptors won't be a no-brainer choice anymore.
The nanoers will absolutely hate having to choose between MWD, Web, disruptor, scrambler, cap booster, and their lover shield extenders, tought. The day of the "fragile" speed tanker having 9k passive shield are coming to an end, it seems. Can't say it's a bad thing.
With that many fundamental changes, there will be a lot of trial-and-error involving both sides of the issue, before everyone know the rules backward and forward. It will be interesting... ------------------------------------------
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:26:00 -
[67]
This is ******ed.
Straight up. It's becoming a trend, i hate to say it, that the some of the most recent changes to the game only promote large 0.0 allainces and more blobbing. Speed -is- Guerilla warfare.
Just no.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lt Angus if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Well then they had better also be slowing down the speed of missiles too then I hope. What will be the point of flying a vaga if you will take almost full damage from missiles and most like get pwned by a T1 fitted drake?
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Spermcell Giganticus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[69]
haha...close range inties...anyone??
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation. |
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Phrixus Zephyr
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
An explination on how a small gang is suppose to escape from the all too common jumpbridgeing titan that DD's you once you've aggroed and are bubbled.
If you're flying against an alliance known for using its Titans at every opportunity. Ie, all of them. Your only options should you agro and get bubbed are speed and BS. BS gangs generally arn't small, they're certainly not guerilla and they more often than not get caught or trapped by the local blob.
People complain about speed but 95% of the time its the only realistic option if you want to fly with less than 15-20 people and not expect certain death.
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Brayiel
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[72]
Logistics > *
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tar om Will Rapier/Huginn receive an increased bonus to counter the drop in module stats? Or will they become useless?
Useless.. fortunately I've been training other race cruisers to V... Rabies is unexpected ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004 |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[74]
What troubles me is that it's going to be very hard to strike a balance between points 1 and 5, i.e.
Quote:
- Gurrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
- Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
If you use a MWD, you become very vulnerable as soon as you get within web/scrambler range and your ship will probably be caught. This is more or less the same as now. If you use an AB, you won't get away fast enough from people with MWDs, so you can't guarantee that you'll be able to withdraw unless you manage to get a scrambler on every opposing ship. But even then, you'll still be within disruptor range, so you'll need to jam people as well if you want to get away.
Orbiting at ~20km and being able to glide out of point range will still be possible, but at the rather reduced speeds it'll be much more dangerous than at present and you probably won't be able to do as much damage before disengaging. But now there's the additional risk that an inty with a scram + web catches you and disables your ship for slower people to pick off. I wonder whether this is something that AFs might be suited to, with a few bonus changes? i.e. close range tacking with scram + web rather than inty-style tackling with range-bonused disruptors?
Question: will WCS make MWDs more resistant to scramming? If so, how much and in what way? Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Zaskarr
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[75]
Originally by: XxAngelxX stuff
"Due to the slight reduction in battleship MWD speed, the radius of the large mobile warp disruptors might get reduced"
__________________ How do I shot web? |
Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
boohoo my overpowered nano ship has been nerfed.
your stuff give it.
Thank you for adding that very valuable comment to the debate.
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Eran Laude
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Eran Laude on 25/07/2008 11:29:12
Originally by: Drenan AT LAST!!
/me sits down with popcorn to watch the flood of nano*** tears that will be generated by this wonderful news from CCP.
Three cheers for Nozh!
This.
Good that nano***s get what they deserve TBH
But there is this nagging concern that regular blasterboats will be hit, when the real aim is to hit nanotanks and not blasterboats.
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Deros
Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Shadowsword
...The nanoers will absolutely hate having to choose between MWD, Web, disruptor, scrambler, cap booster, and their lover shield extenders, tought. The day of the "fragile" speed tanker having 9k passive shield are coming to an end, it seems. Can't say it's a bad thing...
right, so you now will have a 'nano'ship in at 2k webbed, so doing 50-60% of its speed. already being hit by missiles, already being tracked by guns, with no HP buffer.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
Also why wasn't there anything about missions, that is what eve is about. missions.
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agent apple
FIRMA
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:30:00 -
[80]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Thanks so much for this CCP!
I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords.
Stealth Caldari boost
Well done CCP you just killed the last modi****of skill in the game, now we can all fly round in l33t 500man gangs and those pesky nano ships will damn well die when we command it.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[81]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
I guess I will - please poke the test server Devs and make sure the Singularity database is up to speed :)
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Chi Prime
Body Count Inc. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[82]
I for one is very happy to see these changes. -
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[83]
As always with every nerf, its adapt or quit time.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:33:00 -
[84]
Also lol, while we're at it, lets nerf carriers and let them only field 5 drones --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
ian666
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: ian666 on 25/07/2008 11:34:53 this all is simply stupid.
You talking that polycarbon or snakes are so good, but NOT everyone is a CCP worker and can generate every equipment he want for free. Normal players buying implants for 3b isks, rigs with ridicious cost of a tier 1 bs. Faction mwd, booster? ffs how many players using that.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sirial Soulfly As always with every nerf, its adapt or quit time.
Oh yeah that's fine, we'll adapt. Except adapting in this case means having bigger numbers, or not engaging.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[87]
Somebody want to make a Marmite style CCP NOZH "Love him or Hate him" sig? I'd do it, but you'd just discover something else I suck at. |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[88]
I can see an issue with fleet snipers in a bubble getting murdered if they're fitting MWD's as any enemy support fleet is just going to shoe horn as many warp scramblers on frigates and cut out as many mwd's as possible. This leaves you with BS with AB trying to cover 20km to get out of large bubbles and suffering a lot more as xxangelsxx said.
Cutting web effectiveness as well is interesting on first observation, and apart from the bubble situation the warp scramble killing AB is going to be interesting.
I will say that I can still see strategies for engaging and using speed to your advantage still but it will require more range planning and you will have to keep moving the enemy to range whilst engaging. It wont simply be possible to burn in vs a larger enemy group and unless they're very specifically set up, be able to just burn out if you're the one taking aggro.
I will look forward to play testing and I doubt the initial plan will be the final implementation as there are simply too many things being changed and some things will need fine tuning but yeah, not too upset by the suggested change. :)
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
Yeah let's throw low-sec piracy out the window too, great idea.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
why? this change makes escaping camps even easier, 50% webs at a gate camp, good luck getting any kills
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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Medore
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:38:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
you are aware that none of this will help whilst in a bubble in 0.0 right? a ceptor will still lock a BS down quite quickly.
that said i like these changes. its about time nano's wernt the only viable things to fly in small gang pvp
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TOD hamm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:39:00 -
[92]
we have to rat 4-6 hours for a nano hac and CCP still want to nerf it???
I mean missile are working well in pvp, and CCP dont know there are sentry drones in market??? or just CCP's boss starting to play Caldari??
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Izo Azlion
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:40:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
boohoo my overpowered nano ship has been nerfed.
your stuff give it.
Shut up, put down a decent point.
---
CCP, for the love of god, please don't nerf my blaster boats - Yeah, nerf nanos, but surely there should be a bit of a sliding scale. Frankly the change to Webs will result in people fitting double webs more often when they can. 50-60% is absolutely useless, and all of a sudden you are going to have Megathrons, Deimos', and the like having to spend MWD power to get in range of a AB'ing ship.
Assuming you do 50%, for easy numbers.
Zealot w/ AB (My personal choice of ship most the time) It'll top 600m/s. You put a 50% web on, and I'm still going 300m/s. Any half decent pilot knows that a Megathron, hell I'd be willing to bet a Deimos, cannot track 300m/s transversal at close range. Okay, then it comes down to managing the ship better. Right, and with double click directional controls on the ship, how're we supposed to do this?
I think if you gave us joystick control, yeah, we'd be able to alter much faster. But we're already doing ALOT with the mouse.
Frankly this will put out solo BS roaming. Yeah, its not a single player game and yeah, its not supposed to be a single pwnmobile - But it is supposed to work in some cases. But in this instance, a Megathron doing 900m/s trying to catch a HAC or BC that can do a good 150 under webbing, or in the Zealots case, 300m/s under webbing, will just leave the Blaster boats struggling for cap - as if they dont already.
I love the fact you're taking speed down, its great news, alot may hate it, alot may love it, and you cant please everyone... but I think the webs changing will effectively break the gallente role of fighting.
Following the loss of speed, you know what the solution will be on part of the players? Long range. If you cant get close and hold them, why bother trying? Just sit 50km off and put round after round of ammo into them.
Look at people uncloaking from a gate? 50%? Even a Megathron will get back to the gate.
Warp to Zero + 50% web + Mwd = Get away scot free - Solution? More blobs.
Let me know if I'm wrong, please.
Izo Azlion.
---
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:40:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Medore
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
you are aware that none of this will help whilst in a bubble in 0.0 right? a ceptor will still lock a BS down quite quickly.
that said i like these changes. its about time nano's wernt the only viable things to fly in small gang pvp
I enjoy tanking and old-school playstyles as much as the next guy, but looks to me like we'll have less small gang pvp and more blobs out of this.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Emperor Aeoth
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:40:00 -
[95]
great idea you want to build a gate camp online?
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Callistus
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:40:00 -
[96]
\o/ a role for the Arazu again ------------
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Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:41:00 -
[97]
I don't care if my Crow can now effectively be arse-****d by a lucky Merlin with scram and web. I don't care if my Rokh is going to die when I get caught in a bubble because of normalized speed or whatnot.
They are limits I can accept.
Proposed scram and web changes, not so much.
I'm quitting. Drop me an Evemail if anybody wants my stuffs.
---------------------
Lag in Motsu or other hubs? Can't bear it and want to change? Remember : YOU are part of the problem! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:43:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Blog Thus, we urge you to log onto Singularity (our test server) this Monday, July 28TH to give them a spin and spare us no feedback or thoughts on these issues. We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
Awesome, my sub will already have expired when the changes go through \o/. -
DesuSigs |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[99]
Certain ships (most frigs for example) are useless not because the game is unbalanced, but because they have NO role (see af's) or at least are so bad at their role that other ships are preferrable (all other frigs). Nerfing speed will not change this, frigates will still be completely pointless. Instead of a speed nerf, CCP should be looking into revising their tracking/sig radius model. People don't fly frigs because when you get shot at by a blob (and lets face it, wherever you go now there is a blob) you die very fast due to some people getting lucky wrecking shots. If you fly a cruiser (mainly speed hac) with shield extenders you have a chance to get out if you start taking damage.
Also, why should drones/missiles hit EVERY ship, when guns cannot. Tracking is designed so that guns CANNOT hit smaller faster ships, this should be the same with drones (which use guns) and missiles.
I believe the first goal in the blog is wrong, the second is already the case (interceptors can already go a lot faster than any other ship in the game), the third goal, why not? Isn't that what variety is for? the fourth goal I agree with, afterburners are pointless atm the last goal, well this won't be achieved with these changes.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/07/2008 11:45:57
Originally by: Callistus \o/ a role for the Arazu again
Sure.
Eve population, do like this guy. Instead of whining, try thinking how to exploit those changes.
Time to go buy a few dozen Lachesis while they're still cheap.
Quote:
we have to rat 4-6 hours for a nano hac and CCP still want to nerf it???
Don't worry, with the nerf polycarbs are getting, you won't pay them 60 millions/unit anymore. ------------------------------------------
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[101]
Scram/Disruptors shut off mwd's
One word. Arazu.
Fuggen EPIC
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[102]
Hurray, finally it's being balanced.
But I'm not happy to see how it's being done. Fine, the speed is being curved off. The points being made, are that the nano-problem is because of the blobs out there.
So surely it's bad to nerf nano's, without giving more reasons to actually fly small gangs? People blob now, because they can and there is no reason to fly in smaller gangs. I think that is bad.
Sure, shoot the messenger. But at least do see the message that is being brought forward.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[103]
Edited by: MirrorGod on 25/07/2008 11:45:39 Dear CCP,
Your idea is crap <3 MirrorGod
*starts training gallente cruiser 5
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Billy Merc
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[104]
So....what does ccp plan to do with vagabonds then ??
Seeing as tho all they have going for them is speed (even as per your ship description "fastest cruiser in existance")
not that i fly mine much these days...just curious
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:45:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Quoting this for prosperity. I agree wholeheartedly.
Black Hand.
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Broska
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[106]
I can't actualy decide if CCP are having a laugh and trolling their own forum or not.
If they arn't. Hello Blobwars and Carebears online. The whiners have won again.
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Salacir Khan
Amarr Precision Engineering
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[107]
Very nice!
The Nano-Age was fun. Im going to miss it, but im also looking forward to the new way of warfare.
If CCP does its job as good as usuall it will turn out awesome. I welcome the Change (...and im a nano *****)
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Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Pushtan Scram/Disruptors shut off mwd's
One word. Arazu.
Fuggen EPIC
only scrams do, and they might not stop warping after their changes either
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[109]
ROFL, this is a buff for caldri, omg missil spam = super lag, I shall send my raven pilot into rens with FoF missils and well there be no rens left
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Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[110]
pants, spaffed.
excellent proposal.
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Deros
Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[111]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Hurray, finally it's being balanced.
But I'm not happy to see how it's being done. Fine, the speed is being curved off. The points being made, are that the nano-problem is because of the blobs out there.
So surely it's bad to nerf nano's, without giving more reasons to actually fly small gangs? People blob now, because they can and there is no reason to fly in smaller gangs. I think that is bad.
Sure, shoot the messenger. But at least do see the message that is being brought forward.
Agreed
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:46:00 -
[112]
Quote: the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16%
Slave sets are probably going to have a nerf too?
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Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:48:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:48:59
Originally by: Billy Merc So....what does ccp plan to do with vagabonds then ??
Seeing as tho all they have going for them is speed (even as per your ship description "fastest cruiser in existance")
not that i fly mine much these days...just curious
vagabond will still be fast and works outside web range so only change will be it fears arazu's and is easier to track/hit with missiles, whether its buffer can keep up with the increased dmg it will take is to be seen, not that it runs its mwd 24/7 anyway
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:49:00 -
[114]
This is golden...
It reminds me of the bastions of "Adapt or Die!" getting all teary eyed when it's their turn in the nerf barrel.
murder one crying his crap off at the EANM2 nerf... no adapt or die for him that day, no sir....
It's funny how it's "Adapt or die" until CCP touch your favourite toy. |
Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:49:00 -
[115]
An AB isn't viable for an interceptor as you're not going fast enough, I mean yes the polycarbons even though I like them I'll accept they're over-powered but an intie going 2000m will be hit by cruiser guns if it is orbiting at 10km as it is going around 0.06451612 rs^-1 which Focused Pulse lasers have a base tracking of 0.09 rs^-1 that and a paper thin tank intie goes pop. Cruise missiles can hit an intie at that speed mean stealth bombers will probably be able to kill it and ravens will as well assuming they're using cruises or have decent skills in gunnery, hybrid and laser ships will just have to rely on drones, which by the way, light T2 hobgoblins or T2 Valkyries will own an intie. And before anyone mentions MWD the idea to put a scram point on an intie will die which supports blob tactics if MWD's are used as this will be a less brain less skill intesive way to deal with it. Finally, from what I've read, CPP Nozh is one of the Nano whiners as this while being somewhat thought out not enough has been placed into this and rather than being balance it's more of a succumb to the nano-whiners hotfix.
P.S. Does this mean it's time to sell my interceptor? -------- Ohh and btw, China. |
Emperor Aeoth
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 11:50:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:48:59
Originally by: Billy Merc So....what does ccp plan to do with vagabonds then ??
Seeing as tho all they have going for them is speed (even as per your ship description "fastest cruiser in existance")
not that i fly mine much these days...just curious
vagabond will still be fast and works outside web range so only change will be it fears arazu's and is easier to track/hit with missiles, whether its buffer can keep up with the increased dmg it will take is to be seen, not that it runs its mwd 24/7 anyway
thers is restart deley for mwd so vaga is been totally nerfffff!!
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Dsnakes
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:50:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Odre Echee ...I'm quitting. Drop me an Evemail if anybody wants my stuffs.
i'm at work i can't log in, fell free to contract me your stuff <3
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Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:50:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Broegitte Bardot on 25/07/2008 11:54:41
Quote: The new values result in a smooth slope across the classes,
it's all a matter of sorting...
- put the mini-recon up front before faction and T1 and put recon-cruiser behind faction and T1 - assault frigs below T1 frigs and assault-criuser before T1 cruisers
and even that didn't help the destroyer -.-
yes... very clever selling technique
more on monday one thing for now: i don't see why agility was included... i-stabs keep their evil signature modification? alt of Roemy Schneider (probably lacking game time again) |
Delos Korelian
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:50:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Quote: the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16%
Slave sets are probably going to have a nerf too?
Bubuy 3 Billion isk snake sets....
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Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:51:00 -
[120]
its pro blob and thats why its shit -------------------------------------------------
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:51:00 -
[121]
Oh, one more thing. There are already effective ways to combat speed, recon ships. The minmatar recons can web you from 40-50km away, and the curse can neut your cap from a similar distance. A gang with a fair number of these ships in can render most speed fit gangs useless. All I see is CCP giving in to whining from carebears who don't want to take time out of their precious training schedule to train for either of these two races of recon ships. I certainly think the warp scrambler changes are interesting, it makes the arazu have a function, but as for the other changes, I think these will have to be looked at very closely and I will certainly be testing them on sisi next week.
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Stork DK
Minmatar The Wild Hunt Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:51:00 -
[122]
Worst... Dev bloq.... Ever....
/haves heart attack..
*********
Watch ur back Nozh
Also, please don't turn eve into Blob or die Online.
[WTS] 12 km/sec Sleipnir Starting bid = 2B
___________
- Stork DK |
Emily Tong
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:51:00 -
[123]
Yes YES!!!!!!!!!! nerf speed!!!! I don't do frigates and I don't own a Snake set, so nerf them hard!!!
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Fitz Chivalry
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:51:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Fitz Chivalry on 25/07/2008 11:52:39 Just get rid of snakes and ludicrous gang bonuses so you cannot have 25km/s+ ceptors and I honestly dont see a problem with nanos, there are plenty of ways to counter them already and not just with another nano gang.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:52:00 -
[125]
Missiles are now the perfect weapon system for every situation.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:52:00 -
[126]
Also, rapier + huginn with crap webs? Well, at the very least you're consistent with the nerfs. Now you only need to make the neut-curse go to 20m/s when using it's neuts and all recons suck equally ;)
Black Hand.
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voorsk
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:52:00 -
[127]
The MWD deactivation effect being limited to short range scrams makes MWD use a lot more tactical.
If you're bubbled, you can still MWD out of there, unless someone with a scram can get into range.
If you're an interceptor pilot you can choose to AB at close range (the web nerf makes this very viable) or MWD at long range.
If you're a blaster boat, the MWD will still get you into range, as the deactivation won't stop the momentum.
The MWD change doesn't make speed tanking impossible - it just makes unhittable speeds less possible, and makes afterburners a viable option again. I'm looking forward to it.
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:52:00 -
[128]
Originally by: MirrorGod
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
Yeah let's throw low-sec piracy out the window too, great idea.
Low sec piracy != Gatecamping with a medium to large gang. As a matter of fact, these changes should boost lowsec pvp, by making it possible for people to move more freely throughout lowsec, in order to get to minerals, plexes and missions, or to rat in belts --> belt piracy might even get slightly resurrected.
Furthermore, solo players would have more of a say in who they want to engage, meaning that a lot of the pvp will be between evenly matched players that are both looking for fights and want to take each other on.
Not just the little guys getting ****d constantly.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:53:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Martin Mckenna LoL
If your saying the only way to solo/small gang pvp is to nano your ship up your mental.
All CCP have done here is nerfed your style of play. Adapt.
And essentially nerfed a counter to blobbing. Where's the logic in that? -
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Phrixus Zephyr
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:53:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 25/07/2008 11:53:24
Originally by: Martin Mckenna
Originally by: Viper ****zIe CCP have effectively killed small gang/solo PvP in EVE if even half of these changes go though.
Glad to see the company that stands firm hasn't caved to uneducated whines yet again.
LoL
If your saying the only way to solo/small gang pvp is to nano your ship up your mental.
All CCP have done here is nerfed your style of play. Adapt.
Don't troll for the sake of trolling, Martin.
Any Tri pilot passing comment on nanos is laughable, considering it was our bread and butter.
So what are the other options? RR BS? Which needs at least 10 people, including scout and tackle, even then you're pushing it. There are reasons people choose nano over RR. Firstly you cover more than 20 jumps in an hours. You don't get forced to log off by the first gang bigger than you and you don't get your way barred by DDing titans and bubbles. Bearing in mind this change makes plated BS even slower so bubbles will be even more dangerous.
So please. What is 'your style of play' id really like to know.
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:53:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Emily Tong Yes YES!!!!!!!!!! nerf speed!!!! I don't do frigates and I don't own a Snake set, so nerf them hard!!!
I presume this is sarcasm? Because this is exactly what it is.
If someone spends close to 5 Billion ISK, mods and ship included, to be as fast as they can be, well so be it. I mean all this does is making EVE vanilla flavor.
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:54:00 -
[132]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Hurray, finally it's being balanced.
But I'm not happy to see how it's being done. Fine, the speed is being curved off. The points being made, are that the nano-problem is because of the blobs out there.
So surely it's bad to nerf nano's, without giving more reasons to actually fly small gangs? People blob now, because they can and there is no reason to fly in smaller gangs. I think that is bad.
Sure, shoot the messenger. But at least do see the message that is being brought forward.
Well there is a CSM that I'm happy to see has some brains.
This will hurt small gangs, people spec'd in cruiser class ships that are way overpriced for what they can actually do with a tank fit on them (oh yea.. buy a tanked vaga or ishtar? die to a 30mil isk BC.).
This just seems really lame, I have 30mil SP and only in the last 3 months have i started to even touch battleships. Nerf webs - kill my huginn, Nerf Speed (with all of these changes)... bleh - yay blobs.
------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:54:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:54:54
Originally by: Sid Zero
Originally by: MirrorGod
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
Yeah let's throw low-sec piracy out the window too, great idea.
Low sec piracy != Gatecamping with a medium to large gang. As a matter of fact, these changes should boost lowsec pvp, by making it possible for people to move more freely throughout lowsec, in order to get to minerals, plexes and missions, or to rat in belts --> belt piracy might even get slightly resurrected.
Furthermore, solo players would have more of a say in who they want to engage, meaning that a lot of the pvp will be between evenly matched players that are both looking for fights and want to take each other on.
Not just the little guys getting ****d constantly.
eccept theres no good rats in low sec belts and the most profitable ore to mine outside 0.0 is veldspar, so theres no reason to be in a low sec belt
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:54:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Koyama Ise An AB isn't viable for an interceptor as you're not going fast enough, I mean yes the polycarbons even though I like them I'll accept they're over-powered but an intie going 2000m will be hit by cruiser guns if it is orbiting at 10km as it is going around 0.06451612 rs^-1 which Focused Pulse lasers have a base tracking of 0.09 rs^-1 that and a paper thin tank intie goes pop. Cruise missiles can hit an intie at that speed mean stealth bombers will probably be able to kill it and ravens will as well assuming they're using cruises or have decent skills in gunnery, hybrid and laser ships will just have to rely on drones, which by the way, light T2 hobgoblins or T2 Valkyries will own an intie. And before anyone mentions MWD the idea to put a scram point on an intie will die which supports blob tactics if MWD's are used as this will be a less brain less skill intesive way to deal with it. Finally, from what I've read, CPP Nozh is one of the Nano whiners as this while being somewhat thought out not enough has been placed into this and rather than being balance it's more of a succumb to the nano-whiners hotfix.
P.S. Does this mean it's time to sell my interceptor?
ab on intys will be fine, sig radius is a lot lower
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TOD hamm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:55:00 -
[135]
CCP stop against FUN!!!!
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:03:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Pushtan Scram/Disruptors shut off mwd's
One word. Arazu.
Fuggen EPIC
only scrams do, and they might not stop warping after their changes either
Still means a rise in Scrams used, and i use a scram occasionaly - probably just have to go faction instead, so that extra range. Still 1 Scram + 1 Disruptor means the job will be done.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:03:00 -
[137]
Oh yeah, and I think this is probably the 6th or 7th time speed has been nerfed.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Theo Samaritan
Gallente Eve-Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:04:00 -
[138]
Just a couple of points:
> Great to see this being looked into > Small gang PvP wont die people, you just need old tactics rather than the crap you have come up with recently > Its warp scramblers, not disruptors being changed and as blaster range is 5-8km even with a 10km disruptor simple momentum will push you the extra 2k.
No i didn't read most the replies. Yes, I vote we actually test this on sisi before we start judging it completely. But on paper, its great. ________________________ Lord WarATron:
"To do the Abaddon Hadoken, you need to do the following manover with the joypad. ↓ .... ↓→ .... → + ● |
Emperor Aeoth
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 12:04:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Soyemia Any ideas to buff minmatar ships with this? As quite fracntly thta will render vaga, huginn, rapier useless, in practice. Do you want this to happen? What about minmatar ships in general as the only thing minmatar has is their speed?`Any ideas. Thank god I crosstrained to caldari
CCP dont think we need minmatar anymore
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Peter Powers
Master Miners Intruders.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:04:00 -
[140]
<3 !!!
I love CCP Morpheus<3 xXx CCP Morpheus xXx <3
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:05:00 -
[141]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
It's completely fine: blaster-ships shouldn't melt faces completely from undersized targets. Webs won't affect their ability to hit targets of their own size properly, and double-webbing is always a good option.
As a small ship pilot, the changes (as they are) are a huge massive breath of fresh air into EvE combat, particularly regarding small ships. Previously, frigates trying to speed-tank medium turrets from a say, BC, would in mutual-webbed situations (where they can still evade some damage in a 500m orbit), run into the 'lol, I'm faster then you with MWD on' problem, and die a horrible (and generally near-instantenous) death as they'd start following instead of orbiting. This has been fixed with scrambler deactivating MWD
One question, however - why are AFs (rightfully buffed) still somewhat slower then frigates (unlike the cruiser->HAC progression)?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:06:00 -
[142]
Originally by: voogru Edited by: voogru on 25/07/2008 11:58:44
Originally by: CCP Nozh
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I think we're going to see a lot more blob-warfare.
I'm glad I cross trained on nearly every character because obviously, my gallente blasters are going to be collecting dust. I think missiles will be the way to go now.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
When an alliance want ot pvp, someone start launching invitations, and everyone who want to join, join. The speed change won't change this, aside from changing the number of players who want ot join on each side.
If nanos were the blob counters, then why are blobs of 30-60 nano ships more and more common? ------------------------------------------
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Lucy'Lastic
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:06:00 -
[143]
Dear CCP,
Nano boats operate outside of web range.
Blaster boats operate inside web range.
Nerfing 90% of Gallente ships is a great idea.
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Martin Mckenna
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:06:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Martin Mckenna on 25/07/2008 12:07:33
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 25/07/2008 11:53:24
Originally by: Martin Mckenna
Originally by: Viper ****zIe CCP have effectively killed small gang/solo PvP in EVE if even half of these changes go though.
Glad to see the company that stands firm hasn't caved to uneducated whines yet again.
LoL
If your saying the only way to solo/small gang pvp is to nano your ship up your mental.
All CCP have done here is nerfed your style of play. Adapt.
Don't troll for the sake of trolling, Martin.
Any Tri pilot passing comment on nanos is laughable, considering it was our bread and butter.
So what are the other options? RR BS? Which needs at least 10 people, including scout and tackle, even then you're pushing it. There are reasons people choose nano over RR. Firstly you cover more than 20 jumps in an hours. You don't get forced to log off by the first gang bigger than you and you don't get your way barred by DDing titans and bubbles. Bearing in mind this change makes plated BS even slower so bubbles will be even more dangerous.
So please. What is 'your style of play' id really like to know.
Erm where in that post did I say I didnt nano
What im saying is that its not the only way to solo and gang pvp. I use a sleipnir for solo when I can afford it and I would never nano that ship.
Viper saying thats the end of solo/small gang pvp is what im commenting on. I mean what a stupid statment. I accept the changes and think they are a great thing.
On the subject of what my style of play is. I like a mean ass tanked BS or command ship. Unfortunatly due to the recent nano problem its not always been the best option. Ive always hated nano even though i fly them.
RR BS need 10+ people? Since when? 4 RR BS can work even 3 depending on what your going up against.
---------------------------------------------
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:07:00 -
[145]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Hurray, finally it's being balanced.
But I'm not happy to see how it's being done. Fine, the speed is being curved off. The points being made, are that the nano-problem is because of the blobs out there.
So surely it's bad to nerf nano's, without giving more reasons to actually fly small gangs? People blob now, because they can and there is no reason to fly in smaller gangs. I think that is bad.
Sure, shoot the messenger. But at least do see the message that is being brought forward.
down with this -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:07:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Soyemia Any ideas to buff minmatar ships with this? As quite fracntly thta will render vaga, huginn, rapier useless, in practice. Do you want this to happen? What about minmatar ships in general as the only thing minmatar has is their speed?`Any ideas. Thank god I crosstrained to caldari
Minmatar useless? Hardly. All Minmatar ships, while their absolute top speed will be less, will still have a HUGE speed advantage over the rest of the ships, and I'm sure we will see that the speed *difference* between Min ships and the rest of them will actually increase due to the Min's higher base speed and less dependance on mods for speed increases.
In short, you're an idiot for not thinking the changes through and immediately posting a whine about your current ship that you've trained for.
Me, I fly all four races.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:08:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Theo Samaritan > Its warp scramblers, not disruptors being changed and as blaster range is 5-8km even with a 10km disruptor simple momentum will push you the extra 2k.
Range depends on the size of the blasters. The extra 5k or so will no longer be 5k since we will no longer have high effectiveness webs to pin them. -
DesuSigs |
Cardice Makar
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:08:00 -
[148]
Massive theorycraft and Whinage ITT.
Sigh... I love this, is makes me feel warm in fuzzy inside because so many people love this game so much that they're getting genuinly upset about changes.
Seriously though, these changes have not yet even been implemented on SISI. That, combined with the large yellow type-face at the begining saying "THESE CHANGES ARE A POSSIBILITY" rings to me that it certainly isn't final.
How's about we stop whining about things that MIGHT be broken, and wait to see it on sisi... these are fairly radical changes, can't really get the whole story just from a devblog.
I think at the end of the day, all this dev blog REALLY says is "Hey, we have ideas! And we *will* change speed." they haven't sorted out the ins-and-outs yet.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:09:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 25/07/2008 12:09:29 Seems a fair approach; Has my support. Webber and MWD have been overpowered modules for far too long. ...
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:10:00 -
[150]
Go for it!
I'm a matari pilot, the speed rebalance will hit us the most, but I say go for it! At least flying something else will become an option again rather than "BS or fluff" duopoly.
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Bluepetal
Amarr Deadbone Platoon Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:10:00 -
[151]
Actually, I don't think any of this will make a huge difference. What really needs to be addressed is simple physics. If you changed the way ships move in space, the problem will go away. In space, an object in motion remains in motion until acted upon. This does not happen in game. If you allow for real world physics to apply, then reaching ludicrous speed would be deadly and would expend a LOT of time slowing down. People would actually have to think, and PLAN how to move. Also, you need to think about warping through singularities. That should not be allowed.
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Soyemia
Minmatar Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:11:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Soyemia Any ideas to buff minmatar ships with this? As quite fracntly thta will render vaga, huginn, rapier useless, in practice. Do you want this to happen? What about minmatar ships in general as the only thing minmatar has is their speed?`Any ideas. Thank god I crosstrained to caldari
Minmatar useless? Hardly. All Minmatar ships, while their absolute top speed will be less, will still have a HUGE speed advantage over the rest of the ships, and I'm sure we will see that the speed *difference* between Min ships and the rest of them will actually increase due to the Min's higher base speed and less dependance on mods for speed increases.
In short, you're an idiot for not thinking the changes through and immediately posting a whine about your current ship that you've trained for.
Me, I fly all four races.
Dude, rapier and huginn are directly nerfed. Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:11:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Cpt Branko It's completely fine: blaster-ships shouldn't melt faces completely from undersized targets. Webs won't affect their ability to hit targets of their own size properly, and double-webbing is always a good option.
So, MWD, 2xWeb, and ask the target nicely not to warp away? Right.
What you mention about frigates getting pwned by webbing MWDing cruisers/BCs could be fixed by making webbers sig-radius affected. -
DesuSigs |
Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:12:00 -
[154]
I like the fact that the AFs are getting a badly-needed speed boost. But take it this way CCP. AF's need more.
Why not give AF's anti-nano capability. Would solve two problems in one go. -
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Stork DK
Minmatar The Wild Hunt Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:13:00 -
[155]
This is actually another stealthnerf to shield tanked soloships o.0
More ewar = less tank/buffer. ___________
- Stork DK |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:13:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Bluepetal Actually, I don't think any of this will make a huge difference. What really needs to be addressed is simple physics. If you changed the way ships move in space, the problem will go away. In space, an object in motion remains in motion until acted upon. This does not happen in game. If you allow for real world physics to apply, then reaching ludicrous speed would be deadly and would expend a LOT of time slowing down. People would actually have to think, and PLAN how to move. Also, you need to think about warping through singularities. That should not be allowed.
Let me get my "Quantum Mechanics For Dummies" book out, and "Astrogation Physics For the Rest Of Us" edition too.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:14:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Cardice Makar Seriously though, these changes have not yet even been implemented on SISI. That, combined with the large yellow type-face at the begining saying "THESE CHANGES ARE A POSSIBILITY" rings to me that it certainly isn't final.
This is why now is the time to whine.
Not when the changes are purely speculative.
Not when they have been deployed to TQ.
When CCP say 'here are some concrete possible changes, comment please'. -
DesuSigs |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:14:00 -
[158]
Quote: * Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. * There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. * Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. * Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
The philosophy is sound. But such sweeping changes risk chaotic and hilarious unintended consequences. Massive testing will be needed. The interplay between webs, disruptors, scramblers, MWDs and afterburners, and their bonused ships, will be fascinating. It opens up a huge range of potential tactics for the competent small gang...
Yeah, blaster ships will have problems with ships possessing ABs and scramblers... but will people fit an AB? Or will they still use MWD and hope to remain outside web/scrambler range? A balanced gang will require a mix of AB, MWD, scramblers and disruptors... Nanocruisers will retain their ability to disengage at will - it'll still be difficult to get a web or scrambler on them - but they will take more damage from turrets and missiles.
The range of tactics and useful fits implied by these changes is fascinating. In itself, that's great, but the devil is always in the detail...
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Karbowiak
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:14:00 -
[159]
1. This won't reduce lag, it will only make it worse. (Small gangs taking out a large gang wont happen anymore, it'll be blob vs blob + titans that **** everything - WOOHOO)
2. Big alliances with space? yeah gl with anyone wanting to take it. MWDing your battleship out of the bubble camp on the gate isn't worth it anymore.
3. Nerfing the people who spend a shitton of isk on snakes, t2 polys, officer mwds. All of which takes a shitton of time (which is money for CCP). How is that really fair?
Anyone else noticed the guys screaming yay most of the time here are Caldari faction warfare players? Does it smell off Caldari being overrun of nano ships by the other races, and that Caldari can't defend against it?.. puh..
CCP just undo your Torp nerf, and put the Javelin torps back to what they we're in their glory days. Javelin torps was the killer of nano boats.
forgot one.
4. CCP, do you play the game? like seriously, i dont want ingame names, just a yes or a no..
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:15:00 -
[160]
Remind me, how are vagabonds still useful again?
Neuts stop us Ranged Webs stop us My MWD switches off now At the ranged I'm ment to engage at, I have shit DPS
And now your going to give ceptors even more ability to drop on my head completly stop the MWD? Like minnie EAS didn't stop me before I'm also going slower so those massed drake blobs are just something I can't even consider going near
Standard T2 fitted no poly vaga pilot signing off tbqfh ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
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Evolyze
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:15:00 -
[161]
I think this is good and bad and im not a fan of nano ships i would choose a nice megathron over an ishtar anyday.
Good: 0.0 will have a different method of pvp brings tactics that are currently used in small amounts to the mass if they are smart enough to use them. Brings back good old fashioned armor and shield tanking. Promotes teamwork - (this could turn into mass's of ******ed noobs in drakes etc which isnt really teamwork) For gallanete recons with out making them solopwn mobiles they wil probs receive a nerf though.
bad: people don't want to die and will look for the next warp stab of pvp, this will most likely be blobs Easy solo pvp will become allmost impossible with targets in groups and not being able to nano people who bought snake, or faction pimped speed ships are going to be feeling it pretyt bad :) fights likely to become lagy and big which arnt fun.
could be interesting, i can't see this effecting minmitar hacs too much, a vagabond i think was intended to go fast so will still go fast but within reason to others speed.
Wut?
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Noelle Fay
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:20:00 -
[162]
Interesting.
I admit I'm glad CCP is looking into this. Good job so far, though I'm not so sure about the webifier thing -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Angelus Custos
Amarr Electronics
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:20:00 -
[163]
Thumbs up!
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:21:00 -
[164]
i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
that way, a devoted pilot would be able to counter nanoships, but at the expense of having almost no tank or damage mods.
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:21:00 -
[165]
Nice to see that you are finally doing something about this. I hope that won't be micro-steps only, hit that nanos hard and make missiles a viable pvp weapon again.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.53 Faction Warfare Rank: Wing Commander
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Karbowiak
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:23:00 -
[166]
Originally by: iudex Nice to see that you are finally doing something about this. I hope that won't be micro-steps only, hit that nanos hard and make missiles a viable pvp weapon again.
Missiles, esp the javelin torp WAS a viable weapon in the glory days.. til CCP epic nerfed javelins, and then epicly nerfed torps again a year later..
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Schneiderr
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:23:00 -
[167]
as X-Instinct booster are not very common, i would say DONT TOUCH them! the demand is so damn low for these things and booster producers are investing a lot isk/time to get those up on the market for everyone to use.
if you dont touch them, maybe this little profession, the booster production, will at least when it comes to x-instinct, get a step forward. Its time!
buff the Eos btw.!
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:23:00 -
[168]
How about that suggested idea in some past dev blog/post that AF's might get built in web immunity? It would give those ships a really nice boost in addition with these proposed changes.
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:24:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Apertotes i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
that way, a devoted pilot would be able to counter nanoships, but at the expense of having almost no tank or damage mods.
Their crappy physics engine wasnt able to take that much info it seems. Which makes me laugh hard.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:24:00 -
[170]
Originally by: iudex
shit
State Protectorate
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:24:00 -
[171]
Instead of all this complicated crap, all CCP needed to do was this: huge stacking penalty for speed mods, halve the performance of all speed related rigs, make all speed related rigs and mods negatively stack with each other regardless of what type of mod or rig it is (OD, Nano, Istab etc.).
Problem solved. The ships that are going insanely fast due to massive stacking bonuses incured through fitting tons of speed mods are nerfed. No one else is changed. End of story. All other 'normal' ships remain untouched.
The way things are going now, every ship in the game is going to be affected in a negative fashion and nano ships will still be at the top of the pile.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:26:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The way things are going now, every ship in the game is going to be affected in a negative fashion and nano ships will still be at the top of the pile.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:27:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The way things are going now, every ship in the game is going to be affected in a negative fashion and nano ships will still be at the top of the pile.
cant be quoted enough. -
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:28:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Instead of all this complicated crap, all CCP needed to do was this: huge stacking penalty for speed mods, halve the performance of all speed related rigs, make all speed related rigs and mods negatively stack with each other regardless of what type of mod or rig it is (OD, Nano, Istab etc.).
Problem solved. The ships that are going insanely fast due to massive stacking bonuses incured through fitting tons of speed mods are nerfed. No one else is changed. End of story. All other 'normal' ships remain untouched.
The way things are going now, every ship in the game is going to be affected in a negative fashion and nano ships will still be at the top of the pile.
Orgasmic levels of Truth. -
DesuSigs |
Abriana Overlord
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:29:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Tar om Will Rapier/Huginn receive an increased bonus to counter the drop in module stats? Or will they become useless?
Think Pilgrim.......
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clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:30:00 -
[176]
Love the drama and panic, and look forward to checking out the changes in Sisi.
LOL at the whiners before changes are live on the test server. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
AntonioBanderas
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:30:00 -
[177]
so basically vaga and both huginn and rapier gets ****ed in the arse.
I can say ASS \o/ yay!!! |
Siqul
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:31:00 -
[178]
Taranis: 3 blasters, 2 light drones, mwd, web, 2pt scram.
Taranis mwd's at target, web's and scrambles, this stops the enemy from running (mwding or warping) away. Imminent death for target? Confirm/deny...
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Aya Vandenovich
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:31:00 -
[179]
AFs will now be viable for taking on bigger ship classes at close range, this is awesome.
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Zareph
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:32:00 -
[180]
K my first initial reaction is 'ha ha you nano hac gangs are screwed'.
Overall though, I think this makes some sense. I have often joked about feeling like K in Men in Black the first time you punch a MWD on a Cruiser class ship.
I'm not sure I agree with
Due to the slight reduction in battleship MWD speed, the radius of the large mobile warp disruptors might get reduced
This is the one thing that had me going 'hmmm....' I'm just thinking in instances where you are sieging someone's system trying to take down a POS. These bubbles are used to slow people down, not necessarily catch them. Their requirements are fairly steep (Anchor V/Prop Jam 5) and all so they're not used with wild abandon now as it is.
While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. |
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:33:00 -
[181]
Looks like possibly working. Poor Racing League, but I guess asking CCP to balance for a sport rather than for combat would be kind of too funny.
I am puzzled by the graphs, though. Are those min and max over the ship class without anything else fitted but the T2 MWD, or what? Cause otherwise max speed of 4km/s on an interceptor currently is bizarrely off from what you actually see and can get. (6 km/s and above is more like it.)
If so, would it be possible to run the figures with different types of speed-affecting fits, polycarbs and nanos and stuff, and draw the graphs on that, rather? Since the basic problem is speed-affecting stuff adding up, would that not make more sense?
Or did I totally miss something?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Tommy Blue
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:33:00 -
[182]
Will warp scramblers still give 2 "warp points"?
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Ruoska
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:33:00 -
[183]
May the age of nanowhoring finally come to end :)
...however, your goals state that gorillawarfare should remain viable, and speed has been alarmingly large factor in that, yet the blog makes no mention on how this will be made up for that kind of fighting.
I demand gorillawarfare buffs!
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:34:00 -
[184]
I've brought a nanoship.
You've brought a 7.5km scram.
You. Are dead. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:35:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Instead of all this complicated crap, all CCP needed to do was this: huge stacking penalty for speed mods, halve the performance of all speed related rigs, make all speed related rigs and mods negatively stack with each other regardless of what type of mod or rig it is (OD, Nano, Istab etc.).
Problem solved. The ships that are going insanely fast due to massive stacking bonuses incured through fitting tons of speed mods are nerfed. No one else is changed. End of story. All other 'normal' ships remain untouched.
The way things are going now, every ship in the game is going to be affected in a negative fashion and nano ships will still be at the top of the pile.
Yet your suggested change doesn't do anything to make MWD and Webs less "must-have" modules.
It does nothing to boost warp scramblers, or to solve the issue we sometimes see when a single nano-HAS can jump back-and-forth between two systems to avoid destruction when they're twenty guys trying to kill it each side of the gate.
What CCP intend will certainly have sweeping consequences, and some of them won't be nice. It's our job to test things to detect as many of those consequences as possible. But on the long run, Eve should be more balanced. ------------------------------------------
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:35:00 -
[186]
Looking at it again the reactivation delay on MWDs seems a bit harsh considering the new function of the warp scrambler (which is great change BTW for interceptors) and I seriously don't think X-Instinct boosters need touching at all.
Rest is great IMO. Ships will still be able to nano about/disengage at will but are no longer immune to the weapons designed to kill them (Light Drones in particular) ...
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:35:00 -
[187]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Edited by: CCP Nozh on 25/07/2008 11:10:46
Originally by: Stab Wounds warp disruptor shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
Actually it's only the "Warp Scramblers" which have also been adjusted to range from 7.5km to 15km max (officer)
Clearly you have thought about overheating / gallente recons as well ???
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Jor Renalt
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:35:00 -
[188]
I can see both sides. On the one hand there is to much whinning about nanos and these changes seem pretty sweeping. On the other hand I am sick and tired of missiles being shit in pvp. I don't want my missiles to do full damage every time but at the moment they are completely worthless against nano's except for when they are fit to one or two specialized ships AND those ships have to be rigged for it (paper thin cerb being even more paper thin with missile rigs instead of speed/shield rigs).
I guess we'll have to wait until Monday to see how things go.
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DanMck
Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:35:00 -
[189]
is it april fools day ?
is this some sort of joke ?
rapier pilots with 50% less webs ?
inites switching off your mwd drive !!!!
jump through a gate there is a titan i will ab back to gate you having a laugh
disappointed and nerf in the wrong direction nerf titans not the ability to fight outnumbered
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Spindeln
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:38:00 -
[190]
Being able to kill anything with numbers while being untouchable by speed is just stupid.
If I sacrifice all my slots to armourtanking I dont become invincible, I last a little longer. If I go full gank I still can't instapop everything, I do a bit more damage. If I go full speed, I can outrun everything. Drones, missiles, tracking of guns, tacklers...
Ships with MWD only (blasterboats, sniping ships) will be mostly unaffected if I read the devs correctly.
Blasters might suffer from the web nerf, but time on SiSi will tell and give ample opportunity to fix that.
Speedships will still be fast, just not untouchably fast.
Now Harden the **** up.
Go Nozh! Don't let the weak sway you from the true path!
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Rexthor Hammerfists
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:38:00 -
[191]
I am a firm believer in my nanocurse, and i freakin love this change!
This makes things much mroe interesting so dont listen to the omg this will kill eve posts here and go through with it.
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Khatred
ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:38:00 -
[192]
If this will be a nerf or not, it's debatable. At the end of the day the game should look and feel the way CCP wants it to look and feel. There were also times like the so called "missile nerf" where it was actualy a small boost. However this:
"Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. "
has a flavour of hypocrisy. You started to nerf small scale pvp a long time ago and continued to do so. Wich is not neccesarily wrong from your point of view since the overwhelming number of subscribers are the high sec population and the alliance members.
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:39:00 -
[193]
Sell sell the nano ships while you can!
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Rachael Rosen
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:39:00 -
[194]
I see blobs No waità. I donÆt see anything, too much lag. No wait I seeààno still to much lag. Have to be patient.. Ah now finally, new frame and I seeà I seeà oh no.. I see blobs
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Kvarium Ki
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:41:00 -
[195]
I think you should rebalance guns, missiles and ship signature radius at the same time. You can't do one without doing the others.
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Zaskarr
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:41:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Or did I totally miss something?
You really want a graph with all possible combinations of modules, implants etc.? For all ships? Think about it. __________________ How do I shot web? |
Nevada Tan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:41:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Zareph K my first initial reaction is 'ha ha you nano hac gangs are screwed'.
And by 'nano HAC gangs' you mean 'Pandemic Legion', right? Good job they haven't irritated anyone who can come after them with a T1 frig swarm recently though.
Oh wai-
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing. |
Nexus Kinnon
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:41:00 -
[198]
hey this is pretty stupid
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Aypse
Aypse's Holiday
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 12:42:00 -
[199]
You are creating even more incentive to blob up, and that is a very bad thing.
Reducing the mechanics that reward blobbing: Eve-O Forum Link |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 12:42:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Shadowsword Yet your suggested change doesn't do anything to make MWD and Webs less "must-have" modules.
So screw over everyone who genuinely needs them just to make AB+Web+Scram the new must have for everyone else? -
DesuSigs |
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Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:42:00 -
[201]
oh hells yes, i love this. never liked small scale pvp anyway
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seliana tanis
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:43:00 -
[202]
Wts minmitar specced char!
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Jitabug
Caldari Shaolin Legacy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:43:00 -
[203]
The oft proposed idea to have webbers/webber scripts with weaker strength but longer range would achieve a lot of what these numerous changes are intended to do.
Could CCP shed any light as to how these proposed changes have panned out during internal testing? Or is this simply "blue sky design" at this point?
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Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:43:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Anahid Brutus oh hells yes, i love this. never liked small scale pvp anyway
lawls.
---------------------
Lag in Motsu or other hubs? Can't bear it and want to change? Remember : YOU are part of the problem! |
techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:46:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Theo Samaritan Just a couple of points:
> Great to see this being looked into > Small gang PvP wont die people, you just need old tactics rather than the crap you have come up with recently > Its warp scramblers, not disruptors being changed and as blaster range is 5-8km even with a 10km disruptor simple momentum will push you the extra 2k.
No i didn't read most the replies. Yes, I vote we actually test this on sisi before we start judging it completely. But on paper, its great.
Well if you had read the whole thing, you'd know that it will affect Blaster boats as you will get webbed, and your webber won't stop the other guy. Even a dual 90% webbed target at optimal in a Megathron, neutrons miss as it is.
Small gang PVP will be hurt as when you take a small gang out, you will not be able to get away from the 40+ man blob that comes after you as you can now (and I don't fly any nano-ship that is overly fast, best i can hit is around 6.5km/s in a vaga, and that means my guns aren't hitting anyways)
Oh, while we're talking about minmatar ships... with these changes a Huginn would be absolutely useless. Guess I can start flying my Falcon all the time until THAT gets nerfed again.
Like a few other people have said, one step at a time CCP! Mass changes like this is only asking to break something, change one... wait... change another. Multiple annoying "hotfix" downtimes to "fix" the last "fix" 0are a bit ******ed and we've been through it with almost every large patch that changes a lot of stuff at once.
The nano-whines have gotten so ridiculous lately, I've been accused of speed-tanking in an afterburner fit plated Rifter, and my plate Rupture! I think that there is a large portion of the EVE community that has no idea what they are talking about when they say "Nano"... Do I have to use a 5bil Machariel that does 16km/s as an example? Most "nano" ships are not even all that fast, and rely on some sort of ECM to get in and really do some damage.
Seems they've finally caved to the people who say "I want my killmail, that nano-ship got away!!1" Nano ships get away when you don't know what you're doing. ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:46:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The last time something like this happened (Warp to Zero, for example), everyone said "oh, don't freak out, it's just on the test server, it won't be going live, it's to crazy of a change..." and look what happened.
STFU.
I think a lot of people forget that the test server is only one of a series of different testing environments that CCP uses. It can take a quite a bit a work just to get some changes test-server viable, and that's not going to happen unless there's a pretty good chance of implementation.
Changing the values of webs doesn't fall into this category, but changing the whole function of scrams (and a bunch of other mods) is probably a lot more complicated to do. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Sky Marshal
Aeden
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 12:46:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 25/07/2008 12:52:01
Hum, I see more a boost than a nerf about this dev blog.
The maximum speed will be lower but still remains correct.
But Webifiers will see their efficiency horribly reduced. Go down from 3K/s to 1.5K/s instead of 300m/s give enough speed to leave the short effective distance of a Webifier fastly, and still give a small speed tank. In 1vs1 fight, the nanoship will win at each time.
So or we will all have 2 webifiers instead of one on our slow ships, so less tank or utility modules, or a bigger blob to compensate the webifier nerf, as more players permit to put more webs on targets.
____
Removing/Replacing Local is the stupidest idea who can be asked, ever. |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:47:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon hey this is pretty stupid
Thanks. Insightful stuff.
My two cents: Not totally convinced about the webber thing, but as the more stable element of the community have said, let's see what happens on Sisi.
PS: Hilarious to see XxAngelxX getting rather upset about how this will kill small-gang warfare against the blobs. You've seen your own corps and ex-alliances vids, right? How will it affect your nano-blob warfare?
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:48:00 -
[209]
Originally by: seliana tanis Wts minmitar specced char!
WTS 2x minnie spec'd characters.
I guess I may as well jump on the Pulse laser bandwagon and train Amarr for the first time in over 2 years of play. Oh wait.. Pulses can hit nano-ships as it is ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar! |
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:48:00 -
[210]
CCP, I think I love you. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:49:00 -
[211]
Imagine... the rapier will have to put 2, maybe 3 of his 5 webs on a nanoboat now... oh the humanity.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:51:00 -
[212]
I like the changes...its pure balance. And anyone who says "minmatar got nerfed to hell" have no clue about minmatars potential with ABs...we haven't even tested it yet.
i noticed a nice sentence in the dev blog: "It could also create a scenario where smaller ships would prefer to use an afterburner and scrambler, instead of a MWD, webifier and disruptor. Who knows?"
I know...Retribution pilots won't fit any of these combination cause of only one med slot ;-)
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Alpha Type
Gallente Childhood's End
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:51:00 -
[213]
This is a great change. Finally some semblance of balance in the way that ship speeds are determined by class.
The amount of bitter tears by people who have had their i-win-button removed is hilarious.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:52:00 -
[214]
i want to post 'LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLNANO'
But, it'd be nonconstructive.
but, nontheless LOL @ the people who specced in nano's and DIDNT see this coming....seriously, just invest in BC 5 and go pvp in a proper decent ship.
Even IF this doesnt come into effect, it should open some eyes to how fragile their '1337' position is. Seriously, one aspect, just like the torps is getting cut back again....
As Evolutions' saying goes ''Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolution.''
appropriate, eh?
ITT: Scared, scared people
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:54:00 -
[215]
Originally by: techzer0 Like a few other people have said, one step at a time CCP! Mass changes like this is only asking to break something, change one... wait... change another. Multiple annoying "hotfix" downtimes to "fix" the last "fix" 0are a bit ******ed and we've been through it with almost every large patch that changes a lot of stuff at once.
The nano-whines have gotten so ridiculous lately, I've been accused of speed-tanking in an afterburner fit plated Rifter, and my plate Rupture! I think that there is a large portion of the EVE community that has no idea what they are talking about when they say "Nano"... Do I have to use a 5bil Machariel that does 16km/s as an example? Most "nano" ships are not even all that fast, and rely on some sort of ECM to get in and really do some damage.
These two paragraphs seems to stick out to me. The top one because that seems to be a fairly sensible thing to do. One step at a time rather then en-masse changes.
The second paragraph because I think it's true also. Alot of people seem to think nanoing is putting a MWD on your ship. And it is true that the nano-whines became insanely thick and stupid just after FW began.
I think the changes have been coming (and needed imo) for much longer then the genesis of FW, however. But doing about 5 things that would appear to me to be rather large changes to several different things all at once? Not sure that's a good thing.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Ryn0
Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:54:00 -
[216]
No, stop it. |
Sophitia Elit
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 12:55:00 -
[217]
Quote: As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
This Topic is in my opinion completly missing in the hole dev blog thread, sure you can get "Ludicrous" Speed. But that ship will cost a lot. And those guys flying those ships aren't invulnerable, they do die. And when they die they ISK worth a lot of standard Ships.
Quote: Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds?
And after reading this passage i have to think, that CCP isn't really aware of that. How can anybody set the price of a fully fitted Interceptor in relation to a heavy assault cruiser which reaches only the same speed? It will costs a multiple times more ISK as the Interceptor (which i can too fit with faction stuff to make him "ludicrous" fast)
I'm not saying the system is bad, but put ISK in your considerations when comparing setups. Sure, there a players who don't care about ISK, but for the main Playerbase they do care.
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:55:00 -
[218]
Rage...
Congrats CCP, really. This is ridiculous. This nerf will kill Blasterboats (Yes they do have trouble tracking unwebbed similar sized targets). Kill Skirmish warfare. Be very dangerous to anyone trying to make a push into 0.0. Hello bubbles!
All these 'ways to travel too fast'. What % of nano pilots own a High Grade Snake set, T2 Polys, fly with a maxed out Command Ship Pilot and use boosters? Looks like someone has been playing with EFT more than the game. Also, X-Instinct nerf? LOL. It had better be a huge sig radius reduction due to the borked scanres/sig radius relationship of turrets.
WTS Poly Vaga, Poly Rapier, Poly Ishtar, Poly Crow, Poly Scimitar Assumption of Risk |
Nexus Kinnon
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:55:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon hey this is pretty stupid
Thanks. Insightful stuff.
My two cents: Not totally convinced about the webber thing, but as the more stable element of the community have said, let's see what happens on Sisi.
PS: Hilarious to see XxAngelxX getting rather upset about how this will kill small-gang warfare against the blobs. You've seen your own corps and ex-alliances vids, right? How will it affect your nano-blob warfare?
Thanks, your post was pretty insightful too. I see you pointed out something that hadn't been brought up before and totally provided some valuable feedback for CCP to consider.
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Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:55:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Anahid Brutus on 25/07/2008 13:01:32 *parks 30 pulse apocs 100km off gate*
*bubbles gate*
*wins eve \o/*
wait, even better, 3-4 titans sitting 230km off the gate. i take back what i said about small scale pvp being dead, now that you dont have to worry about dictors and shit like, mwd'ing places, then you can just dd snipe 24/7
oh yes, a new era is here
edit, i like how it buffs carriers as well, people mwd'ing away from my fighters or out of my point range made me so sad ;_;
this will be great. if you thought the caldari roleplayers were whining loudly about nanos, wait until they're met with titans and carriers everywhere they go, and with no way to effectively disengage.
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:56:00 -
[221]
Thank you CCP. Finally...
Not saying it's all perfect, lets see what play testing brings to light. Of course there will be other ubar ships after this nerf, but it's a needed nerf nonetheless
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
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Joakim Wasyl
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:56:00 -
[222]
Cool, a boost to missiles. Caldari cruisers / BC's may become useful for something other than ECM.
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Plague Black
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:56:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
Comming from someone who takes 50 nano snipers to roam You just won me a bet, I said that PL will whine hardest and there you go, bring me 100m isk with your post, thank you.
As for changes: BRING IT ON CCP! Took you long enough to wake up and realise that ships should not be faster then missiles. What was next, shooting while cloaked or dodging bullets modules?
Your next step should be to ban cloaks on battleships and caps. Then we will have an interessting EVE again. Still plenty of broken stuff here so get back to the drawing board.
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Marsaac
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:57:00 -
[224]
Atlast a working nanonerf. My only concerns is about the Minmatar recon ships. Removing the target painter bonus and replacing it with a bonus for web velocity affection would make them worth flying after the patch. Same with the Hyena.
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Martin Mckenna
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:57:00 -
[225]
stealth chicken boost
---------------------------------------------
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Mr Mozzie
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:57:00 -
[226]
This is very fair for those people who have spent billions on snake sets, officer speed mods etc. The value of their investment will be destroyed overnight.
Perhaps these people could keep their old version mods unchanged, but they would no longer be spawned. The new nerfed mods could then be introduced in their place.
The old modules etc will dissapear from the game gradually through attrition, and the old ones will become very prized items.
Or they could get a cape for their character in ambulation.
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:58:00 -
[227]
welcome to blob online... because theres no counter for it .. except a bigger blob :P
time to train falcon and RR BS and thats it
trashing my snake clone whit all the rogues too and getting slaves :P ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 12:59:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Go for it!
I'm a matari pilot, the speed rebalance will hit us the most, but I say go for it! At least flying something else will become an option again rather than "BS or fluff" duopoly.
flying "something else" is flying what exactly? BS or "not so fluffy duopoly"? --------- I want to phew phew
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Max Teranous
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:00:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage
Originally by: Deros *WORDS" ...it simply become a case of more ships wins.
D
deros promoted to head of PL tactics.
recruitment now open must be able to fly a drake t2 tank and missiles.
And you laughed when I cross trained to Caldari
Max
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:00:00 -
[230]
Originally by: "CCP"
* Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. * There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. * Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. * Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
It seems like your goals aren't bad, but your means to achieve them are, here are my main concerns:
1. How this affects minmatar recons. Unless they get a web-amount bonus, I think they will become the new rook (especially the huginn that even now is used by very few)
2. How this affects blaster-battleships. If you fly a megathron you need to get in range, but one arazu could effectively make you a useless sitting duck. Either boost the falloff or make so that the Arazu's bonus only affect disruptors.
3. Thus far I've not seen you address the concern about skirmish small-gang warfare. It's as if every change you make is to make blob-tactics the better option, all at the same time that the server can't handle that type of warfare. If you want to nerf nano like this, at least consider other options to evade blobs BEFORE you nerf nano.
4. Making caldari ships that more effective. To effectively get a damage reduction from eg. a drake or a cerb when you're in a nano:ed HAC/RECON you have to be able to get up to the max speeds you can get to with todays t2 speed mods + polys. All at the same time you're unable to do any damage to the target while you are at that speed, so the speed is basically the option to get away from the fight, not be invincible. Reducing that max-speed actually increases the efficiency of missiles.
It seems you didn't consider all the effects of your changes - while the vision seems solid enough, there are many things that get affected by your changes here. And it seems again that they're in the favour of the blobs.
Black Hand.
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:00:00 -
[231]
These changes will be very interesting to see. I'm going to love finding new ways to exploit vulnerabilities, work contrariy to people's expectations, etc.
This will make scramblers a viable alternative. Maybe their range needs to get slightly boosted, seeing how they only affect mwding ships, not abing ones, whereas webbers affect both...
I'll have to see what it's like when it hits sisi, but from the numbers it looks to me like ABs will need to have their speed boosts increased to really be a viable alternative to MWDs.
This is a step in the right direction! I say that, and I fly plenty of nano ships. ____________
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Rastadeen
Minmatar The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:02:00 -
[232]
How about not slapping on ALL these nerfs in 1 single go. Start with 1, the work from there. Changing this much straight away is bound to fail. And the last point in your blog really gave me a good chuckle.
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Naughty Cat
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:02:00 -
[233]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Speed Rebalanced[/url].
Nice to hear, but may I ask you, when are you going to fix fleet lags?
Thank you -----------------------------------------------
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Liteik
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:02:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Liteik on 25/07/2008 13:05:21 Edited by: Liteik on 25/07/2008 13:03:07 You can do with a speed that you want, just nerf amarrian BS (cloze BS with pulse and rang 70-100km) and plz nerf carriers and their fighter-lagz, after that you can change speed.
If t2 scrambl = will disconect , for that rapier/hugin ?
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:04:00 -
[235]
Fantastic
Superfast HACs and so on are a real detriment to the game:
Nano fitting means they cannot, and will not, engage similar sized groups, and no group can catch them.
This relagates their usefulness to massive ganking while remaining almost invincible; clearly broken.
Thank you, thank you and so on
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Sexy Traderin
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:04:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Verite Rendition It's been a long time coming. I'm glad to see that speedtanking will no longer be the only effective way to fight in small groups.
Yeah, now there will be no way to fight effectively in small groups.
Great change.
omg vz you are the biggest whiner i have ever seen...
adapt or quit, kkthxbye
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Plave Okice
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:05:00 -
[237]
For those of us who were proud of fighting outnumbered and actively tried to fly in as small a group as possible pvp just got taken away from us, speed was our only option in fighting numbers 2,3,4,5 times ours.
Biggest blob wins eve pvp, let's not bother with any variation or options, just who has most wins, much simpler.
Would you like to know more? |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:05:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon
Originally by: Franga
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon hey this is pretty stupid
Thanks. Insightful stuff.
My two cents: Not totally convinced about the webber thing, but as the more stable element of the community have said, let's see what happens on Sisi.
PS: Hilarious to see XxAngelxX getting rather upset about how this will kill small-gang warfare against the blobs. You've seen your own corps and ex-alliances vids, right? How will it affect your nano-blob warfare?
Thanks, your post was pretty insightful too. I see you pointed out something that hadn't been brought up before and totally provided some valuable feedback for CCP to consider.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Roland Childe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:06:00 -
[239]
Oh dear, i have a bad feeling about this one. I kinda foresee 2 years of matari training going down in what they're worth. I am what many of the forum warriors would call a "nano***" because i like to go fast. Doenst stop me from getting killed every now and then tho.
Contrary to commom belief there are backdraws of going really fast. At this point i don't see why a genuine speed adjustment, yeah, lets call it that, nerf sounds so harsh , would help an awfull lot. there are ways to encounter it with existing game mechanics.
I can see why alot of people whine about speedtanking, but changing it to a degree where it wont work properly anymore will take away some of the variety of this game we all seem to like so much. I do have a caldari/gallente char, so i know both sides of speed tank vs "normal" tank. Also i quite like the minmatar, and it makes me cry a little when i see how they're treated. I dont want to turn this into a boost minmatar thread, i just wanted my to voice my concerns about the announced chances.
One thing on a very specific item: deactivating my mwd when i get hit by a scam? How can this even be considered. Imagine a situation on a gate, i am in my lovely nanoboat, with a nice blob waiting for me and scrambling me, now i cant even try to reach safety nor can i do much as im rather fragile in my nanoship and cant tank em to take even 1 with me, nor can i reach the gate to get to safety. In this case i dont see how this change will give me more options really.
I guess that at the end of the day, we all gotta wait how the testing on sisi will turn out. In general i dont complain alot, but this time i thought i add my 2 cents.
Regards
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:06:00 -
[240]
I hope this really fixes the situations I though CCP fixed last time.
Note the Warp Scrambler shuting off MWD's might not help a lot. The REAL PROBLEM with nanoships is actually getting close to them... -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
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Nofonno
Amarr Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:12:00 -
[241]
I got to page three of the comments by now; so essentially I'm TL; DR-ing (sorry for that).
I have never used a MWD, but my general feeling is that it should never have been introduced into the game. Same goes for various other modules.
I really wonder if anyone flies vanilla anymore. It appears from the vocal peoples on the forums, that everyone has top implants, T2 rigs and what-not. Everyone has become a bean-counter and no-one just plays for fun?
I will be connecting to SiSi on Monday for sure to see the changes in action.
---
A scientist must be an optimist at heart - to have the strength to rally against a chorus of voices saying "it cannot be done". |
Plave Okice
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:12:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Plave Okice on 25/07/2008 13:12:21
Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist You really think it's fair to survive against 3, 4 or 5 to 1 odds?
I didn't say winning, or even surviving, I think we should have a chance of fighting, rather than just sitting and dieing.
The blob mentality is bad enough in this game as it is, it's about to get much worse. Some of us like being able to go and fight in ones and twos without 34 gang mates before we undock.
Would you like to know more? |
atrophocy
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:12:00 -
[243]
alot of very major changes to the most basic of given norms in pvp, yet the exact details are often vague. way to many "maybe's" for such crucial changes to so many ships. CCP seem now to base their changes based purely off the inexperienced and ignorant complaints of pilots who have likely never flown a "nanoship" or flown against one.
Also concerning is the systematic removal of any tactical usefulness of recon class ships. it started with the nos/neut changes which have essential rendered the pilgrim near useless. Changes to damps recently while not affecting the lachesis and arazu as badly, have made them fractionally as effective in their role as they used to be. Now the minmatar recons get their turn with their only real bonus becoming "50 to 60% less effective". While i can appreciate the need to make damps and nos less effective on ships not designed to use them, nerfing them without giving the race specific recons a bonus effectively cripples the recon class leaving them of little strategic value.
It seems once again ccp are making sweeping changes with little thought, insight or understanding of what actually happens on TQ.
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Ambo
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:13:00 -
[244]
Change is good --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Jor Renalt
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:13:00 -
[245]
I want a cape!
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Mad Ilya
Erasers inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:13:00 -
[246]
So imo best idea to add small web drones was totally discarded?
Small bunch that had the isk to get all that fancy stuff hits the whole playstyle through all the whining? I didn't have any problems with nanogangs - if you don't have counters for it, don't engage. Even the previous comments about 'current modules giving battleships ability to nano' have been plain stupid. I mean, when have you seen a nanophoon last time (they're expensive and quite easy to catch these days, yet I bet fun to fly)? Who wants to go roaming to hostile space with slow ships that will have serious problems to survive?
Quote: one could fit 6 of them without being affected by a stacking penalty. In a nutshell, this is whatÆs happened with nanofibers and overdrives.
What are you flying and who's the EFT player with this in mind? I don't think noone fits low slots like that. Especially after putting polys in the ship.
Worrying trend of nerfing stuff that does have counters (or could work with buffing them) continues. * Insert the mandatory I quit -line * :P
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NaBeRa
DRUCKWELLE Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:14:00 -
[247]
hey, nice work, expecially the AB/MWD and scrambler part :)
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Martin Mckenna
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:14:00 -
[248]
hydra have devs
---------------------------------------------
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Xephys
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:15:00 -
[249]
Oh, this is fantastic, I thought, when I first saw the blog. This will finally get fixed!
I was happier to hear of how harsh they were going to be on the nano***s that abuse this game mechanic.
But then, suddenly, I hit a brick wall.
'Webifiers
Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.'
....
That's it, now, I shouldn't even bother trying to LOOK at EW ships for minmitar. Target Painters are already useless, WHY do you insist on nerfing the other bonused item that we get? I just think that's stupid to implement without a buff to Target Painters, which I thought could be part of the solution in nanoed ships anyway.
I'm pretty dissapointed on that note, seeing as this speed nerf is going to also affect minnies the most. Not very fair, CCP. Not very fair at all.
/rant
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unite01
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:16:00 -
[250]
i didnt read the 9 page so it may have been proposed already
why dont make a "speed oriented" bunch of ship, up to cruiser hull (so tech 1 too :D), for all race Oo ? (so not only vaga's break record :D ) with bonuses like "no penality for stacking speed mods" while other ships can only fit a certain amount of speed mods or get big deacrease on the speed mods effectivness
my 2 isk
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:16:00 -
[251]
CCP, can I get a list of exactly what you think is going to keep smaller roaming gangs viable and why exactly? Because if this and station services are your ideas behind VIABLE SMALL GANG ACTION I really have to wonder just how out of touch with this playstyle you are. -----
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Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:16:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
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schneirder
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:18:00 -
[253]
I am SO glad this is happening. I really miss tanked ships and other tactics than just speed and things to counter speed. The worst thing is as speed crept up, real life reflexes became more and more of an issue, you have very little time to respond to things or change directions to avoid other ships when everyone is going 5-8k/s.
I have terrible reflexes and most of my deaths these days are because everyone is zooming around so fast I can't react quick enough, I stumble into a bunch of webs and die. At least I might have a fighting chance if it takes 10 seconds for a ship to reach me rather than 5!
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atrophocy
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:18:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Nofonno I really wonder if anyone flies vanilla anymore. It appears from the vocal peoples on the forums, that everyone has top implants, T2 rigs and what-not. Everyone has become a bean-counter and no-one just plays for fun?
this is what happens when you read the forums too much. myself and my corp/alliance have been flying predominantly nanoships for a long time now, well over a year or more, and i could count on one hand the number of people i know that use highgrade implants and t2 rigs.
We do play for fun. We fly "nanoships" because going fast, is fun. we fly fast ships, because when you are constantly outnumbered often 3,4,5 to 1, when your opponents like dropping carriers, mothership, even titans on your gangs, either you go fast, or you die. and dying everytime with no way to fight sure as hell aint fun.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:19:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 25/07/2008 13:20:04
Originally by: atrophocy alot of very major changes to the most basic of given norms in pvp, yet the exact details are often vague. way to many "maybe's" for such crucial changes to so many ships. CCP seem now to base their changes based purely off the inexperienced and ignorant complaints of pilots who have likely never flown a "nanoship" or flown against one.
Also concerning is the systematic removal of any tactical usefulness of recon class ships. it started with the nos/neut changes which have essential rendered the pilgrim near useless. Changes to damps recently while not affecting the lachesis and arazu as badly, have made them fractionally as effective in their role as they used to be. Now the minmatar recons get their turn with their only real bonus becoming "50 to 60% less effective". While i can appreciate the need to make damps and nos less effective on ships not designed to use them, nerfing them without giving the race specific recons a bonus effectively cripples the recon class leaving them of little strategic value.
It seems once again ccp are making sweeping changes with little thought, insight or understanding of what actually happens on TQ.
Originally by: Xephys Oh, this is fantastic, I thought, when I first saw the blog. This will finally get fixed!
I was happier to hear of how harsh they were going to be on the nano***s that abuse this game mechanic.
But then, suddenly, I hit a brick wall.
'Webifiers
Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.'
....
That's it, now, I shouldn't even bother trying to LOOK at EW ships for minmitar. Target Painters are already useless, WHY do you insist on nerfing the other bonused item that we get? I just think that's stupid to implement without a buff to Target Painters, which I thought could be part of the solution in nanoed ships anyway.
I'm pretty dissapointed on that note, seeing as this speed nerf is going to also affect minnies the most. Not very fair, CCP. Not very fair at all.
/rant
I agree with these two posts. It's just meh to cripple the Huginn/Rapier. No one uses the target painting bonus, ever. :P
edit: Oh, can I say capital ship boost? :D
Black Hand.
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nutropar v3
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:20:00 -
[256]
I am so glad something is finally being done about them. Maybe we can actually fight nano ships now, rather then watch them kill you or watch run away. YAY :)
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:21:00 -
[257]
Interesting. Nano-hacs will probably still be viable to a degree - with Assualt Frigates (note their speed is increased) becoming nano-hac tacklers. So a boost to AF's then.
The much nerfed Arazu / Lachesis also looks much more tantalising under these proposals. And to an extent so does the Pilgrim (if it can get close enough).
It's a hard nerf for the anti-nano stalwart the rapier / huggin though. Im not sure how viable (if at all) these ships will be under these proposals unless their web amount is increased (note CCP: dont make the same mistake you made with the amarr, gallente and caldari recons after the nos, ECM and Damp nerfs!).
Webifier drones suddenly became more valuable (even with a nerf to them) as combined with a regular web I think you'll get around about the same effect as a un-nerfed web. Blasterboat pilots will need these me thinks.
More blobs? Hard to say.
C.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:21:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The last time something like this happened (Warp to Zero, for example), everyone said "oh, don't freak out, it's just on the test server, it won't be going live, it's to crazy of a change..." and look what happened.
STFU.
I think a lot of people forget that the test server is only one of a series of different testing environments that CCP uses. It can take a quite a bit a work just to get some changes test-server viable, and that's not going to happen unless there's a pretty good chance of implementation.
Changing the values of webs doesn't fall into this category, but changing the whole function of scrams (and a bunch of other mods) is probably a lot more complicated to do.
By "forget" you mean that you're implying that I didn't know this (multiple tiers of test environments) in the first place. Completely wrong.
In fact, by the time CCP has arrived at the point to even announce things like this, they're so far down the development path that they're basically 99% committed to their current direction and probably arn't going to change much of anything at all. Certianly not the key concepts (like 50% webs and MWD killing scrams).
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Innominate
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:23:00 -
[259]
This blog makes it absolutely clear that the devs have no understanding of speed in eve.
Sticking a t2 mwd on an unfitted ship doesn't give you a fair speed baseline.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:24:00 -
[260]
I'm not sure that this will really affect nanocruisers that much. Yes, they'll be a bit slower, but they'll retain their speed advantage over other ships, so they'll still be able to disengage largely at will. They'll be more vulnerable to turrets and missiles, but they have the EHP to survive a respectable amount of damage, allowing them to disengage if necessary.
The new scramblers won't be an issue - yes, they shut off MWD, but that's what the current 90% webs effectively do. In return, webs are being reduced in effectiveness, so it'll be harder to slow the nanocruiser down in the first place.
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Droljica
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:26:00 -
[261]
The best dev blog ever after Castor expansion.
This will put good old pvp back on track.
Nano***s go die.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:26:00 -
[262]
Please, if you want to make a dev blog that radically changes 1 fundamental PVP style, don't include sentences like:
"What's more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed"
because you just group yourself in with the rest of the speed-whiners who are too idle, too uninterested in PVP and just want those nasty hostiles to go away, to learn to combat them with already available tactics.
Why must it always be the PVPers who have to adjust to game changes? Why can't those that perhaps don't like PVP so much because it interrupts the way they want to play the game, adapt to the PVPers? --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
SARPIDON
Revival.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:26:00 -
[263]
Watching the tears in this thread from certain ' elite ' corps / alliances who revolve around one style of ' broken ' gameplay is priceless. A really public display of throwing your toys out of the pram.
Wait till the patch hits and work around it like everyone else.
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SetInEdill
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:27:00 -
[264]
solo PvP will die =( i loved this game, but now... i don wont be a miner
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:27:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Ruoska
...however, your goals state that gorillawarfare should remain viable, and speed has been alarmingly large factor in that, yet the blog makes no mention on how this will be made up for that kind of fighting.
I demand gorillawarfare buffs!
^ What the man said!
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:28:00 -
[266]
Originally by: SARPIDON Watching the tears in this thread from certain ' elite ' corps / alliances who revolve around one style of ' broken ' gameplay is priceless. A really public display of throwing your toys out of the pram.
You will just see rapiers --> falcons. Have fun.
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:28:00 -
[267]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Please, if you want to make a dev blog that radically changes 1 fundamental PVP style, don't include sentences like:
"What's more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed"
because you just group yourself in with the rest of the speed-whiners who are too idle, too uninterested in PVP and just want those nasty hostiles to go away, to learn to combat them with already available tactics.
Why must it always be the PVPers who have to adjust to game changes? Why can't those that perhaps don't like PVP so much because it interrupts the way they want to play the game, adapt to the PVPers?
Angel, not to put too fine a point on it, but...
STFU and adapt, n00b.
Seriously, you were part of the crowd telling everyone else to adapt to nanos. Now it's your turn to adapt. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:29:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: XxAngelxX Please, if you want to make a dev blog that radically changes 1 fundamental PVP style, don't include sentences like:
"What's more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed"
because you just group yourself in with the rest of the speed-whiners who are too idle, too uninterested in PVP and just want those nasty hostiles to go away, to learn to combat them with already available tactics.
Why must it always be the PVPers who have to adjust to game changes? Why can't those that perhaps don't like PVP so much because it interrupts the way they want to play the game, adapt to the PVPers?
Angel, not to put too fine a point on it, but...
STFU and adapt, n00b.
Seriously, you were part of the crowd telling everyone else to adapt to nanos. Now it's your turn to adapt.
Oh we will adapt. Instead of jumping into your ridiculous titan blobs and trying to havea fight, we'll just not bother and you can go back to mining. Happy? --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:29:00 -
[269]
Overall the changes look promising. I'll definitely be popping onto the test server when I get a chance to try them out.
Blaster tracking may need improvements though.
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Sexy Traderin
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:31:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Gypsio III
The new scramblers won't be an issue - yes, they shut off MWD, but that's what the current 90% webs effectively do. In return, webs are being reduced in effectiveness, so it'll be harder to slow the nanocruiser down in the first place.
old webs will equal sram+web. in mathematical terms:
Speedreduction old web: 0,9 Speedincrease MWD (vary quite a bit, lets assume): 500%-625% Speedreduction new web: 0,6 Speedreduction scram [(0,2 to 0,16) * 0,6]: 1 - 0,12 to 1-0,095 so same as old webs if you assume that you are in range of 7,5km and switch scram and webber on.
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Mana Sanqua
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:32:00 -
[271]
What is it with what feels like the anti-gallente patches? This comes across as a whine and for that I am sorry, but the webbing penalty is gonna hit every blaster boat hard. I'll also add that I flyb a lot of Gallente ships, so I am bias to begin with, but... 1) We've had the Raven recieve a dps boost so that it is catching up with the Megathron and has a much better effective range (note: catching up, not "better than"). Comparison's range wise suggest its dps should be comparable with lasers, not blasters. 2) We've had our resists lowered by 10% to help the amarr (the amarr boost which was a nerf to all other races, god forbid that ccp does it's pay raises using the same technique). 3) Now its tracking will be worse due to not being able to slow the target to a halt.
Whilst I see the need for some of these changes, changing webbers is gonna have a massive effect on the entire spectrum of combat. It may help deal with the "nano" issue, there are lots of others where it will cause a lot of suffering.
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:32:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 25/07/2008 13:32:46
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Oh we will adapt. Instead of jumping into your ridiculous titan blobs and trying to havea fight, we'll just not bother and you can go back to mining. Happy?
Um...Angel...you do know I'm in a 1-man corp atm, right? (Well, aside from my same account noob placeholder alt.)
EDIT: Oh...and mining? Are you crazy?! -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:33:00 -
[273]
A while ago, I was flying around solo with a non-nanoed, non-plated zealot. Then I stumbled into a camp of about 10-12 hostiles in light ships. I raced with them over 3 systems before they caught me, and in the fight that followed, I killed two of them before I lost the ship. That was FUN, and ther wasn't any nanoing involved.
That's why the doomsayers crying about small-scale pvp being dead make me laugth... ------------------------------------------
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Jinshu
German Kings Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:34:00 -
[274]
The nerf is needed and welcome.
It is indeed a problem when a vagabond and a rapier in small gangs are superior to even greater mixed gangs because they:
Do not need tacklers aditional tacklers - because they are fast enough. Do not need a tank because they are fast enough. Do not need a damage dealer - because marvelous enough they have the damage.
So does this nerf retricts the 1 man solo hac ownage - yes. Is that good ? Yes. Fast groups will still be available but they will now have the need to employ shipclasses that are actually designed for tackling etc. They will hopefully not be able to outrun any weapons with a cruiser class hull and cruiser class damage fitted to them. So you need to mix up your nano gang a little and it cannot be hac only or hac recon - anymore and that is a good thing to accomplish. The blasterboat whine is also not very convincing. A blasterthron is not meant to be able to rip appart an interceptor - it is meant to rip apart it's counterpart, namely a big ship like a BC or another BS. And for that 60 % webber, tracking and mwd speed will still be enough.
As stated by the devs - the real problem with nano is, it can only be countered by nano - and that is no fun.
------------------------------------ The Game cannot be won, only played. ------------------------------------ |
Malena Panic
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:34:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Eran Laude Good that nano***s get what they deserve TBH
You will continue to die to better pilots after the patch, as they will continue to adapt and you will continue to expect CCP to make the game easier for you.
The rebalance seems a bit complicated to me. Why not just rebalance tracking and sig radius instead, so that the MWD sig bloom makes fast ships *easier* to hit? That would give nano ships a strategic speed advantage, allowing them to choose their engagements and their duration, but a tactical disadvantage, in ships which are easily hit and have no damage buffer.
A certain scaling down of top-end speeds is probably inevitable too, given the limitations of the engine, but it's really the dual advantages of strategic superiority and tactical vulnerability that makes nanoships frustrating to the F1-F8 crowd. ... |
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:34:00 -
[276]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Please, if you want to make a dev blog that radically changes 1 fundamental PVP style, don't include sentences like:
"What's more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed"
because you just group yourself in with the rest of the speed-whiners who are too idle, too uninterested in PVP and just want those nasty hostiles to go away, to learn to combat them with already available tactics.
Why must it always be the PVPers who have to adjust to game changes? Why can't those that perhaps don't like PVP so much because it interrupts the way they want to play the game, adapt to the PVPers?
nail. on. the. fukken. head.
obviously this blog was not written by someone who was motivated purely from reading eve-o whines and not at all from actually having a factual basis for any/all observations. CCP seems to clueless/inept to implement any sort of speed balance change currently. -----
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schurem
Anarchy Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:35:00 -
[277]
Thread too long, didnt read, but i LIKE what the nozzman is tryin to do here. However, I still think EvE needs more and better tactical warning sounds.
<<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
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Alkie
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:37:00 -
[278]
Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.
T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.
Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike
Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?
Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.
Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.
Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.
Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.
The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.
Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:37:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 25/07/2008 13:40:02
Originally by: Shadowsword A while ago, I was flying around solo with a non-nanoed, non-plated zealot. Then I stumbled into a camp of about 10-12 hostiles in light ships. I raced with them over 3 systems before they caught me, and in the fight that followed, I killed two of them before I lost the ship. That was FUN, and ther wasn't any nanoing involved.
That's why the doomsayers crying about small-scale pvp being dead make me laugth...
This.
I was flying around lowsec solo in my platephoon of fail a couple days ago and engaged a hostile domi and astarte on a gate, which quickly turned into two domis, a blasterthron, an astarte, and a phobos. Despite this, I got the astarte to 50% structure before he got out of range (I had multiple webs on me and couldn't pursue) and took one of the domis very deep into armor before I died. If I'd gone for the domi outright I probably would've killed him, then might've even been able to take one or two more ships with me as well.
It was a FIGHT instead of a gank despite the odds against me, and that's exactly the type of thing which is the reason I play. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:38:00 -
[280]
I agree with this...no more ..."MORE speed capt'n!" I feel badly for those that thought this would last forever and spent ungodly sums of money to get the HAC to 7Km/s.
-TheMule
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:38:00 -
[281]
I hear that nanoviolins will remain unchanged.
Anyway, I'll be looking very closely at the new mechanics, to find interesting new tactics. It's a shame that certain players will be unable to do similarly, but EVE has always been a harsh, uncompromising game.
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Gnome Chomsky
26th of July Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:38:00 -
[282]
Originally by: XxAngelxX I'm weeping irl here
Much as I dislike the look of these proposed changes, I actually LOVE the salty nano-tears that the new TRI (Pandemic Faildon) and old TRI (TRI) are shedding.
NOMNOM
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Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:38:00 -
[283]
Oh man, Minmatar are so thoroughly hosed by this it's not even funny. Vagabonds are now just a really expensive means of acquiring T2 salvage.
Meanwhile, the Arazu is God amongst lesser ships. Yes, I MWD around you, you can't activate your MWD, and you're still too slow if you have a AB fitted. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing |
Dracorimus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:39:00 -
[284]
Problem solved, well mostly.
Quite funny to see the nano-w****s crying now ships are going to be once again somewhat balanced.
Least interceptors will be able to do as their description suggests, intercept and tackle something biiger than them now.
I also think cloaks on capital ships, or anything over cruiser size, especially titans is rather silly, those things are meant to be friggen monstrous in size and affect the space/tides etc around them.
To be able to simply *cloak* such a massive object, I find ridiculous even in this fictitious setting of new eden. - Die faster damnit! |
Amandi Casimi
Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:39:00 -
[285]
rebalancing the speed of the ships is a good idea... and changes to the Polycarb will be welcome...
But messing with the webs and scrams are going to screw stuff up... alot. Small changes should be made, gradually over time, instead of trying to cut it all with one go.
Make your changes to ships speeds, and the polycarbs... see how that plays out, THEN look at changing webs and scrams after it has been implemented.
Remember... the bigger the changes, the more chance you have at breaking a system that really isn't to terribly broken. Nanofits can be countered the way they are right now. Change to much stuff, and well... you completely change the game. -------------------------
Let neutrals be neutrals.
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Chienka
Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:39:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Chienka on 25/07/2008 13:44:40 All I can say is that CCP had better watch their step in this. We've seen how easy it is for small changes to shift the popularity of ship classes...
Such a large change like this will surely rearrange the entire combat spectrum below capitals. No doubt nerfing ships, ship classes and even races (minmatar lol) into oblivion. The problem is, the amount of testing and rebalancing for such a change is so immense its probably not worth the effort in the first place.
But in all seriousness, as shown in the past, we can't expect CCP to keep testing for balance. Its taken the game years to get to the somewhat balanced state that its in.
To start all over again... uhh... no.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:40:00 -
[287]
Originally by: CCP Nozh The battles will hopefully once again teem with ships of all sizes and makes, giving added weight to strategy and tactics (our very favourites)
Where blobbing 2+:1 against a gang is strategy and tactics, rite?
The way people currently use speed as an advantage came about because others were using ******ed numbers to theirs.
I never understood the issue with people going fast; it still requires decent clones, good skills and polycarbs (80m+ per ship) to get to any speed usable in a proper nano gang; and if you want to go your so called "ludicrous speed" - well, you're spending 2-3b on a snake set + other implants and probably another billion fitting your ship. When someone else spends that much money on a counter to it, then I'd expect to be caught, right?
Maybe I'd be a little less annoyed with this change if you'd also sort something out with gang mods while you're nerfing all of this - make them work in warp
Also sig radius reduction is possibly the worst bonus ever, why would you even contemplate changing X-Instinct to that - I've got skirmish spec 5 + mindlink + maxed skills and I've never ever used the sig reduction mod because, quite frankly, it's useless.
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:40:00 -
[288]
Suggestion for webifiers: in stead of giving it a 50% effectiveness everywhere within it's range, make it more effective at close range and less effective at longer ranges, for instance, make the effectiveness vary linearly from 90% to 10% from 0 to 20km. This will give a 50% effectiveness at 10km, and good webbifying at blasterboat ranges.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:40:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Jinshu The nerf is needed and welcome.
It is indeed a problem when a vagabond and a rapier in small gangs are superior to even greater mixed gangs because they:
Do not need tacklers aditional tacklers - because they are fast enough. Do not need a tank because they are fast enough. Do not need a damage dealer - because marvelous enough they have the damage.
Quoting the clueless.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:42:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Gypsio III nanoviolins
I see what you did there. -
DesuSigs |
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Nadar
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:42:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Nadar on 25/07/2008 13:43:05 Which nutcase suggested nerfing Webs? Last time I checked, the "fooling-others-with-bad-jokes"-day was the 1st of April on Iceland as well, not the 25th of July
I'm really happy I've trained skills for other races as well, else I'd be honking around in seriously shite recons after this patch
---
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:42:00 -
[292]
Yay sniper fleets have meaning again. Havant flown my sniper tempest in months.
that's the only pro i can find :(
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:42:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 25/07/2008 13:44:25 Its indeed a Minmatar boost. no nerf. try to adapt. minmatar will be fine...very fine.
There is no web = dead anymore...tiny shield/armor of minmatar didn't tank so well when webbed. You now can enter web range as a tactical option and benefit from tracking and signature...these are all new possibilities and advantages for minmatar.
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:43:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Alkie Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.
T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.
Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike
Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?
Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.
Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.
Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.
Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.
The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.
Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.
Nail on head... Also your forget that minnie have the hardest training requirements for most of their ships due to split weapon systems and dual tanks.
Seems like ccp want this game to become stationhugging-drake-blobs-online
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:43:00 -
[295]
korinn, stop being reasonable and suggesting that only the snakes were overpowered. Clearly everything associated with speed needs to be nerfed quite handily. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that damps were overpowered but a broadspectrum nerf on anything that affected two stats was overboard. Quit being silly. -----
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fiber0pti
Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:43:00 -
[296]
lol at the polycarbon legion tears they taste so sweet
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:44:00 -
[297]
Originally by: manasi I feel badly for those that thought this would last forever and spent ungodly sums of money to get the HAC to 7Km/s.
-TheMule
[WTS] Gistum B-type 10MN MWD, 10isk
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Kire Nosslrak
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:45:00 -
[298]
sigh, just when u thought things couldnt get worse the nerf bat comes along. What about fleet lagg? Seems to me as u are forsing ppl to bring more and more numbers and by doing that just ADDING to the lagg.. |
pathfinder two
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:45:00 -
[299]
On the whole, good!
A few of the changes were definitely neccessary (stacking penalties applying sooner, smaller bonuses), but a few changes still seem to be ill thought out (webbers and warp scramblers). I'm glad we will get a chance to test it before it goes live.
And by my calculation I can still get my HAC over 4km and my ceptor way higher, the speeds just aren't 'ludicrous' any more
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manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:45:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Sid Zero
Originally by: manasi I feel badly for those that thought this would last forever and spent ungodly sums of money to get the HAC to 7Km/s.
-TheMule
[WTS] Gistum B-type 10MN MWD, 10isk
Sorry Sid :( ( lol I ahve 1 too but was too afraid to lose it to fit it....sigh
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Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Adam C Yay sniper fleets have meaning again. Havant flown my sniper tempest in months.
that's the only pro i can find :(
fyi sniping tempests are worthless now through a wonderful mix of nerfs such as scripts, hp buff and t1 apocs being a billion times better
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Soyemia
Minmatar Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 -
[302]
By the way, whats the role of claymore after this? You cant fly it with a inty gang and its bonuses are to speed. Oh man, you killed one matari ship entirely. Good job, I do endorse nerfin nanos but just rething minmatar a role in this game. Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
Karando
Random Goods
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Jinshu A blasterthron is not meant to be able to rip appart an interceptor - it is meant to rip apart it's counterpart, namely a big ship like a BC or another BS. And for that 60 % webber, tracking and mwd speed will still be enough.
lol. who is this ccp fail employee?
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:47:00 -
[304]
how it will be with WCS? will WCS protect mwd from beeing disabled by scrambler?
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:49:00 -
[305]
At least by the end of Monday the nano pilots will have stopped crying, and the rest of us are whining when everybody figures out it's a boost, not a nerf. |
Slave Runner
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:49:00 -
[306]
Oh, and please revisit the Hyena. It only got 3 bonuses because the web range was so powerful (small signature is usually one of the matari racial flavours, not a bonus). And it's MWD bonus is now considered circumstantial, as it shall use ABs more often.
So, we have a t2 ship with one useless bonus (target painters), a second useless bonus (50% webs), a fake bonus (signature radius) and a circumstantial bonus (MWD cap penalty).
Hyena: the mighty No-DPS No-EWAR Frigate of Doom.
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Korinn Also sig radius reduction is possibly the worst bonus ever, why would you even contemplate changing X-Instinct to that - I've got skirmish spec 5 + mindlink + maxed skills and I've never ever used the sig reduction mod because, quite frankly, it's useless.
If two sniper fleets meet, the one with sig reduction boost will absorb 30% more damage than the one who doesn't. As soon as you turn on the MWDs the bonus is wasted though.
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Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[308]
At Last! Sounds good. Thank you CCP.
The thought that there may be even the slightest of little buffs for AF's in there makes me happy in my pants.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you speak to them |
Pantheros
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[309]
Firstly, forgive me if I'm gonna repeat what some of the pro-nano peeps have already said but I'm just adding my 0.02 isk to the argument.
I've been playing EVE now almost 4 years.. seen many a nerf bat splatting and thought "ok, ccp have a grip on game mechanics, i see why they wanna do it, i might not like it, but oh well". To me, this looks like an over-zealous and under-analysed proposal and for once I'm posting against a Blog comment (me not forum who*e).
For quite some time now webbers, mwd, and disruptors/scramlbers have played their part, and they work. Yes, there was a point where putting fairly cheap mods on a battleship would get it to 15km/s and that has already been nerfed, and deservedly so. Now ur fixing perceived speed issues because you have an inexperienced player base shouting "nerf" seems to be against what CCP were trying to achieve some time back "a great PvP experience" and CCP were proud of PvP awards they got from certain www bodies.
As mentioned in previous posts, there are numerous ways to counter nano pilots. It seems those who get off their chuff and actually learn about the game mechanics, instead of thinking this is a point n click PvP game, have put themselves in a position where they can cope with guerilla tactics. And, what is it you're trying to do to PvPers, make the game simpler? Seriously, what makes EVE an awesome (worth paying 4 years of subscription) game is the complexity around PvP.. this aint no point n click PvP game.
Personally, I like the various options there are around PvP, including nanoing. With this you're removing a PvP element from EVE for a fair amount of your subscribers.
A quote from some wise person.. "don't fix what aint broke", or better yet, are you fixing what is actually broken (some people's perception) versus something to simplify things for the inexperienced (nerf nano). Changing something that's not actually broken that impacts so many players.. hmm.
Another quote from some wise person.. "if you can't beat them, join them".. stop satisfying the needs of the lazy and inexperienced players.. tell them how they can counter it or do it themselves (maybe a forum thread for "beaten n battered carebears" might help them ).
There are many options in EVE around mechanics for PvP.. let people explore and learn instead of spoon-feeding them with nerfs.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Raquel Trotter
Nail on head... Also your forget that minnie have the hardest training requirements for most of their ships due to split weapon systems and dual tanks.
Seems like ccp want this game to become stationhugging-drake-blobs-online
So is it Gallente or Minmatar who are screwed here? You both seem to think you are.
There have been several minmatar boosts recently (the torp buff, the change to resists, etc) but of course you ignore those. This change opens up a lot more options, not closing them down, and my rapier will still be plenty useful. I'm a rapier specialist with 3 fully fitted and rigged rapiers out in 0.0 and I still think this is a good idea!
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LoveKebab
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[311]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 25/07/2008 13:53:15 WTS 53km/s panther - starting bid 4bil
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Sha Dar
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 -
[312]
And this game takes yet one more step towards becoming "Supercaps Online"
This can only increase blob warfare and make the servers cry even more than they do now...
Fix blob warfare not the only effective, or even viable counter to it you morons... -
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taylor04
Caldari Digital assassins
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 -
[313]
IM NOT THE FIRST TO SAY THIS BUT SOLO SMALL PVP WILL BE FINISHED... CAREBEARS WILL BE OUR EQUALS..
SO F U AND F**K YOUR CRAZY IDEAS CCP..
80% PVP BASE USE nano's so why change ???
oh because carebears run the game oh how silly i forgot..
i got im from work to hear this bull crud...
thanks for the 4 years ccp now shove your game where the sun dont shine if these changes go through..
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 -
[314]
damn.. all of my blaster ships are going to useless.
1st scramblers turn off mwd.... yay cant get to range (ok.. can be solved by ABs... but they dont help much at all tbh) 2nd webs only 60% or so... yay cant hit shit because of tracking
3rd all the huginns/rapiers are going to be EVEN more useless than arazus/lacheisis are atm(yay... another recon nerf... like the pilgrim/arazu/lacheisis arent enough)
time to train drakes ppl... because that what most shitty newbs fly these days and CCP is on track to only listen to them more than experianced PvPrs. ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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A Sinner
Logical Progression
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 -
[315]
Quote: Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.
I need a drink... and I'll need more after it. ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink" |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:53:00 -
[316]
Overall sounds excellent. I'm sure there will be lots to tweak before it's all good, but the basic direction is good. Speed *was* out of control, and I'm glad something is being done about it. And wow... actually fitting AB on a pvp ship... will wonders never cease
A bit concerned about blaster boats with these changes, but we'll see.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:54:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Overall sounds excellent. I'm sure there will be lots to tweak before it's all good, but the basic direction is good. Speed *was* out of control, and I'm glad something is being done about it. And wow... actually fitting AB on a pvp ship... will wonders never cease
Till you get bubbled and DD'd. Then you will be back to MWD fast.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 13:55:00 -
[318]
Originally by: fiber0pti lol at the polycarbon legion tears they taste so sweet
lol at ir0n being proud of defeating anyone with a page long blue list and 2-3000 of their favorite members.
oh noes my polies... don't worry we will still find a way to kill you when you are too afraid to leave dock range. -----
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Chienka
Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:03:00 -
[319]
Sadly this is also going to push the game further down the path towards caps-online, with bigger and laggier cap fights.
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Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:03:00 -
[320]
Very well thought out and over all will bring balance to the game. Congratulations! There are still questions that must be answered, such as the role of WCS (will it remain the same?). But definitely a step in the right direction.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Dsnakes
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:03:00 -
[321]
Edited by: Dsnakes on 25/07/2008 14:03:39
Originally by: BritishInvader ...(Because guess what, Target Painters are bloody useless)...
OFC they are, cause everyone out there have an mwd on his fit, sothey already have an huge sig. MAYBE, i say maybe, now that ppl start feeting AB instead of MWD ppl will start to see the benefits from Target Painters?
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Demitria Fernir
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:03:00 -
[322]
GREAT, now we can just trash all vagas and ceptors, and start using a real armor/shield/hull/honor tank instead \o/
CCP killed teh game. again.
10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:04:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana If two sniper fleets meet, the one with sig reduction boost will absorb 30% more damage than the one who doesn't. As soon as you turn on the MWDs the bonus is wasted though.
You're a bit special aren't you
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HakanSherif
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:04:00 -
[324]
its the most stupid thing i have ever heard since CU in SWG, devs give and devs take true, but when players leave its the devs that cry.
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Tob'ias Sjodin
Organized Crime Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:04:00 -
[325]
Dear CCP,
What is the use for a minmatar recon compared to eg. an Arazu anymore after this patch?
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:05:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Stab Wounds i see lots of gallente whiners too lol
gallente have been overpowered for far too long and needed a nerf (megathron, thorax, deimos, eos, astarte.) now you guys have to use tactics instead of mwd,web, shoot. so sorry you don't have a brain.
So explaing some your wise tactics please, Sir.
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Nexus Kinnon
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:06:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Stab Wounds typhoon benefited from torp boost noob
At least we have one ship that got buffed now that our entire T2 cruiser lineup has been made redundant, rite guise?!
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:06:00 -
[328]
You know this is more of a boost to the nano-style of ships than an actual nerf, right?
So now you can only go 4km/sec instead of 6km/sec, boo-hoo all roaming pvp is completely dead its blob online now WTS life.
What actually happens is when someone gets a web on you, you can still go 2km/sec. ...
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:06:00 -
[329]
Dear Fail PvP-alliances, you will still fail after the nano-nerf. Don't get your hopes up. (*choke* HYDRA *choke*)
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:06:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Heartstone on 25/07/2008 14:06:23 nvm cba
---
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sxndy
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:06:00 -
[331]
Why the afterburner nerf?
Although pvp mwd is all fine and dandy, afterburners are mostly used in missions where they are much needed. Ever wondered why people fit them?
The games not all about pvp m8, it does have some depth so why try to shallow it by nerfing afterburners under the name of pvp ballancing?
As for the nerf to gang bonuses, I hope thats a joke. Why not just nerf the mwd bonus, why all the hate for afterburners?
I just really don't see the point in messing with afterburners, it will detract mission fun. And I love afterburner gang bonuses on my mission BS.
*feels sick*
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Kransthow
Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:07:00 -
[332]
Answer me this ccp, what is the HACs new role to be?
My alt is "Is Forporn" |
SetInEdill
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:07:00 -
[333]
CCP, minmatars ships after this fix will be trash.
Can you change all minmatar-profile skills to galent-profile skills?
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Tob'ias Sjodin
Organized Crime Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:07:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina You know this is more of a boost to the nano-style of ships than an actual nerf, right?
So now you can only go 4km/sec instead of 6km/sec, boo-hoo all roaming pvp is completely dead its blob online now WTS life.
What actually happens is when someone gets a web on you, you can still go 2km/sec.
Except there will be an arazu at every gatecamp now making you dead in the water. ^^
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Pete Stalker
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 -
[335]
Is it April 1st yet?
I can't believe you guys are taking this so serious...
There are only two types of aircrafts -- fighters and targets. |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 -
[336]
Another new Dev listening to the loud carebears on forums who havent trained for hyenas/huginn/rapier or know how to fit web, and now wants to make a mark on the game.
These proposed changes will drive eve even more towards blobbing.
We'll be seeing big sac fleets, remote rep BS fleets and eagles now as the new flavor of the month PVP. Numbers will be everything, not skill-driven combat.
EVE PIRATE
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 -
[337]
this is completely ridiculous. Rather than nerfing ALL speed, just nerf the ships that go way too fast. MAYBE you make assault frigates get a web range bonus, they can tank HAC's long enough for other stuff to get in range, rather than completely destroying speed and nanogangs altogether, just get rid of the ships that go 15k, because yes, that is dumb. youve gone waaaaay too far with this CCP i hope you wake up before you destroy it for people who PvP, rather than people who think they PvP, die to someone then come whine on the forums complaining that MWD's are too powerful
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Gorbon Hauler
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 -
[338]
This is a real mistake - will encourage everything I have grown to dislike about the game :(
People who have an issue with nano gangs need to just learn how to fight them.
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Dr Qui
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 -
[339]
Concerned about the blasterboats sicne they alreayd have hard time catching anything this is going to hurt. By the way i nano and i blaster so been on both sides. One possible fix to this is web drones. Gallente have webber drones to catch and nail fast ships and you put them on the slowest drones in the game makes no sense. They need to be able to catch fast ships to web. Maybe 5 drones gives you 50% speed reduction butthey can actually catch something else than a BS going backwards
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Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:10:00 -
[340]
Already a long thread and too much to skim through at the mo, but a quick thought...
If you are reducing web effectiveness, are you going to increase their range? For example, your average webber now has a range of 15km along with it's 50% effect? Or, radically, how about webber scripts? Range vs. strength?
Cheers, Arrs
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NvyoU
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:10:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
3. I know 2 is not viable. so a modification to MWDs is in order: while MWD is active, you cannot lock targets or activate modules that cannot be activated while in warp. solved pretty much any MWD problems. they will become GTFO modules. nothing more, nothing less.
Love this idea! I seem to rememeber a dev once stating that this was all that MWD's were originally intended for?
Interesting times ahead though!
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Kai page
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:10:00 -
[342]
speed freak reporting in !
cloaks > nanos
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Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:10:00 -
[343]
Has anyone else noticed?
Pro-change : apparently does this out of spite, "lol tears sweet", "lol serves you right"
Anti-change : apparently finds time to explain why it's a bad idea.
---------------------
Lag in Motsu or other hubs? Can't bear it and want to change? Remember : YOU are part of the problem! |
Torquemada Inquisitor
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:11:00 -
[344]
The Tri/PL/Exceed etc* nanoblobbing tears in this thread manage to be both sweet and deliciously salty, yet have a wonderfully bitter and sour edge to them. How can that be?
*I put Exceed in that list just to annoy the other two through a delightful hint at equivalence.
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Pantheros
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:11:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Dear Fail PvP-alliances, you will still fail after the nano-nerf. Don't get your hopes up. (*choke* HYDRA *choke*)
lmfao, /signed
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:12:00 -
[346]
This is a pants idea.
I think ships should actually be sped up across the board and introduce a proper physics engine. Surely it's easier to make the counter-measures to speed (disruptors and webbers) than to nerf the entire speed capability of all the ships...
For example, the difference between a T2 webber on an Inty (10km radius) and a top-officer wbber on a Rapier (80km range) is way too much... fiddle with the range and power of disruptors and webbers, but ensure the range of modules scales according to the ship, ie Frigates can fire and hit (with fall-off applied) at 20km, and be outside web/disrupt range, while a cruiser can do this at 40km and a BS at 80km.
Balance to me would be to be able to actually dogfight in any ship (reminiscing the thrill of a Machariel dogfight).
The other thing not considered in the Blog is the difference between the races: Caldari: slowest but with max range, while Minmatar are the fastest with the lowest range, and Gallente and Amarr in between. Caldari ships have over time got faster, Minmatar have stayed the same and Amarr and Gallente have got slower, to the point that Amarr ships are some of the slowest in game. This needs fixing, a nano-Raven should be an impossibility. Also consider the roles, a Deimos without an MWD would diminish it's use and popularity to nil, despite it being alongside the Vagablonde one of the most exhilarating PvP ships to fly, due to the conscious decision a pilot has to take in order to take damage in order to kill. Then you have Machariels and Vindicators in the BS class doing the same roles.
The point being, is that it is VITAL to have the ability to tank 3 ways: shield, armor or speed. And dogfighting is absolutely a MUST in the ability of any spaceship game.
The basic issue with speed and the BIGGEST consideration CCP must take into account is that speed makes PvP *fun* and *exhilarating* - nerf speed, and you nerf gameplay, simple as that.
Personally nothing tops being in a Blasterthron or Deimos, having taken the decision to get up close and personal and out-gank anything in sight, and a Vagablonde dogfight is a battle of wits and player skill rather than anything controlled automatically by the game.
So no, don't slow down, make things faster, and beef up the counter measures.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Amelis Laucian
Caldari Quack Mongers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:12:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Stab Wounds i see lots of gallente whiners too lol
gallente have been overpowered for far too long and needed a nerf (megathron, thorax, deimos, eos, astarte.) now you guys have to use tactics instead of mwd,web, shoot. so sorry you don't have a brain.
look how completely clueless about this game u are
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:12:00 -
[348]
well arazu with faction scrable and lvl 5 will scramble at arpound 18km. if arazu is centred at gate you align with one cycle MWD and run awayyou got shortscra,mble probably, one cycle over but you run away with inertia >_> and you are faster on mwd than arazu and you already have full speed. your worst ernemies will be not arazu, but role ceptors with scramble bonus >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:12:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 14:12:04 Well, here's hoping Warhammer gets finished up this year. ---
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Highpriest Sylvia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:13:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Torquemada Inquisitor The Tri/PL/Exceed etc* nanoblobbing tears in this thread manage to be both sweet and deliciously salty, yet have a wonderfully bitter and sour edge to them. How can that be?
*I put Exceed in that list just to annoy the other two through a delightful hint at equivalence.
hahaha signed
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WarGod
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:13:00 -
[351]
WTB better devs!
Wog1 |
Arctur Ceti
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:14:00 -
[352]
And then the Lord sayeth:
Let the pro-nano whines begineth!
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:14:00 -
[353]
i wonder how many people are going to quit now it should be much safe in low in in about 2 weeks.
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Pete Stalker
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:15:00 -
[354]
BTW Nozh, I love how you boosting mining frigates! Hurrah for mining-speed-frigates!
http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/devblog/img/new_MWD_speeds(1).png
There are only two types of aircrafts -- fighters and targets. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:15:00 -
[355]
NERF ARAZU!!
I can hear already the next whines...
The proposed changes not good at all. And if a devblog begins with "there is no counter to speed than speed" then I am not really sure if the devs know their own game any more or what.
Yes, high speeds can be painful. Yes, they can win. Maybe they need some balancing. BUT NOT IN THIS WAY! Breaking 100's of other aspects which then needs also 'fixing': we all know where this ends...
I propose again: add the amount of bonus from mwd as malus to agility. 500% more speed = 500% less agile. PROBLEMS SOLVED!
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SirFett
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:15:00 -
[356]
my 2isk worth
why not instead of "rebalancing" tons of modules implants and whatnots keep mwd speed as it is but instead change its use to a "GTF out module" (of course with this explanation killing of mwd with warm disrutors still makes sense but lets ignore that for now ) after all its called a micro WARP drive... have you ever tryd targeting anything in warp ? look for the message
this of course will force everybody to use afterburners driving the standard pvp speed down to where it was originaly intended to be of course intys would need to be changed a little bit to achieve higher speeds but all of a sudden look assault friggates have allmost use again too (if you make em a tiny bit faster) vagas can still runn arround in circles and if it gets too hot push the mwd button and get out faster than anything else but behold you could fight back ohnoes also it doesnt reeealy screw that much with smaller gang warfare because the fast ships are still faster than others and can still get out faster just means diffrent sacrifices and a more diverse fleet composition if you want both AB and MWD
but yeah the nerf is coming allmost exactly as stated in the dev blog nothing we can do
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:16:00 -
[357]
What's the counter to missiles now besides tanking everything. Relatively fast ships w/ a tracking disruptor will still evade turret ships, where's the module to deal with missiles (lol defenders) __________________
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Ikoras
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:16:00 -
[358]
They should leave webs alone and not go forward with the scrambler change. having it as 2 points is good enough. If you get close enough to use it you're close enough to web anyways. Sure no one uses em but so what. there are plenty of useless mods in game.
the nano nerf i can understand to a certain extent. The mods and rigs aren't the problem. The problem lies in the implants and command ship bonuses added to it. Snakes are overpowered. but they also cost a whole lot of isk. Isk that majority of eve can't afford to buy and usually can't afford to lose. So adjusting the implants and fleet bonuses should work fine and if it doesn't you can always add more to it. but don't just gut it out completely from the start. With the speed changes they also need to do something about bubbles or I can see 0.0 turning into nothing but fleet blobs and gate camps waiting for hours with nothing to kill as there will be no small gangs roaming or solos out other than the noob alt shuttles and rookie ships.
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lebrata
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:16:00 -
[359]
Already in game we have seen ppl develop styles of play to counter nano ships from nuets to RR BS gangs with webbing ships.
Nano does not need nerfing as the player base has already developed ways to combat and defeat it.
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Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:23:00 -
[360]
/me puts out the bucket to catch all the nano tears
Should be some interesting times. I look forward to these changes. Methinks all the doomsayers, as usual, are horribly over-reacting. There will be a slight adjustment to tactics, but unless someone seriously shortens the flight times of missiles and boosts their speeds, I don't see the nano tactics going away anytime soon.
The real effect is to extend the "can hit" envelope of the ships, it's still a truism that larger ships just have more slots for speed mods, and it's all going to be relative. Unless they seriously get cracking on the stacking nerf and make sure that all similar bonuses stacking nerf against each other no matter what the source, it's going to end up being a minor change not a major one.
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Sahjahn
Caldari shadow and flame
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:24:00 -
[361]
Gets a big thumbs up from me, now let's just get it deployed, woot :)
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Highpriest Sylvia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:24:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Lemonx This is just stupid. Good work on nerfing nano before doing anything to the blob. Its great how skills shouldnt affect pvp at all.
skill ...
orbit & f1-f8? whow you amaze me!
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ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:25:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika hmm most of poeple dont see that the MWD will be affected only by scramblers, the 7.5km ones >_> vagas still orbit at 20 >_>
Gallente recons have bonus to warp scrambler. So i guess you can imagine a warp scrambler II having 12.5 km range or so after the changes, add the bonus from recon, you have 30ish or so km scram+mwd reset range?
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Is forporn
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:25:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Richard Angevian 1. Get rid of MWD's larger than 1mm, that way small ships can still go fast, but cruisers and above which are ships not meant for speed, can't. Nothing bigger than a frigate should be moving at 5km/s
Join THE INTERNET. today |
Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:25:00 -
[365]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 14:25:23 Quite a big missile boost too, all tracking weapons will suffer my pvp drake looks nicer then ever
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:25:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Riho lol.. show me a proper thread ... all i have seen for the last year is...."whaaaaaaaa i got killed by nanoz.... nerf nerf nerf because im to stupid to think and adapt"
Strange, all I've seen is 'wahhhhh I can't kill anything unless I nano and am too stupid to try something else'. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Ikvar
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:25:00 -
[367]
DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
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Julien makka
The Mutineers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:26:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lemonx This is just stupid. Good work on nerfing nano before doing anything to the blob. Its great how skills shouldnt affect pvp at all.
skill ...
orbit & f1-f8? whow you amaze me!
Is it possible to be even more cluelesS?
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Yukisa
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:26:00 -
[369]
You devs need to ask yourself a vital question and come to understand the game before you try to balance it...
1. What was the intention of the MWD as a module when it was designed and implemented?
Was it intended to be a module to quickly close the gap for short range ships, a quick short burst to escape or rather a constant super high speed as it turned to be?
Looking back at the implementation it suggested that the MWD was designed primarily for short burst of high speed as it was never meant to be sustainable. However, it didn't work out this way..
When it became sustainable it obsoleted AB. Thats when game balance went downhill and you guys failed to see it coming, especially when snake implants, command ship mods that boost speed, and even boosters were added in patches. This irritated many when CCP acknowledge ships flew too fast then added poly rigs...
Now let us go back to the original design concept of MWD. Instead of changing all the multitude of factors that now make it stupidly out of balance, simply go back and make MWD work in short bursts of speed, not sustained. i.e. Low duration, long reactivation. Then buff afterburners. They were always too slow. The changes suggested will hurt AB as well as speed is much less with MWD or AB.
A major problem for small ships is their extreme weakness vs light/heavy missiles and scout drones. It's either a hit or miss affair, you either go fast and evade it, or you die. Light missiles rarely occur on big targets so it isn't as big a concern, but almost all big ships have room for light drones. This makes them too effective as an anti-light platform when their role is to be anti-heavy. Think about this point over and you will understand there are many more changes required if you truly want to rebalance speed in Eve.
A few suggestions:
1. MWD returned to its short burst-high-speed usage. 10s duration, 60s re-activation timer. 2. AB speed is increased. The % increase can be tested to get the right amount. Basically the AB is the module of choice for dog fights while the MWD is for those wanting gap closing bursts or quick evasion, not constant evasion. 3. Lower sig radius of small ships so they can avoid some drone fire and lower light missile explosion velocity. (Speed and size is a defense, not a do or die mechanism with a threshold one can exceed to be invulnerable)
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BuIIseye
Amarr Pax Amarria Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:26:00 -
[370]
Carebear Raven Pilot > help i lost another raven ganked by a vagabond CCP > roger, nerfing them
Seriously CCP, i don't even fly nanoships, yet i see this nerf affecting everyone.
Arazu/Lachesis will be way better than Rapier/Huginn. Missile boats get a stealth boost, because missiles don't need tracking (Drake's/Cerb's/Raven's + Arazu's combo is the new FOTM for medium sized gangs). Solo Pvp becomes ever more harder because, now, a solo shortrange fitted battleship moves ever more slower, you need a tackler (can't call that solo pvp anymore now can I). Encourages blobbing even more as people that used to travel alone, or roam, now go with bigger gangs to be safer. Jumping into bubble camps are now signing your death warrent, even with superior tactics or firepower, you end up dieing to a much inferior defender, increaseing the already stupid ammout of whines about titans and cynojammers. People will go back to chokepoint camping instead of roaming since it's much more comfortable and easy.
Basicaly EVE becomes slower and boreing.
Don't get me wrong thou, I can understand the need to nerf ships with ludicrous speeds, but can't it be done just by adding stack penalty's to mwd + speed modules/snake implants/gang bonus's and replacing the effect of the X-Instinct Booster to sig radius reduction. The scrambler boost is also a nice thing but it shouldn't affect battleships in my opinion, the stack nerf should be enough to make sure battleships never pass the 1.5km/s which is enough to bypass interdictor or mobile disruptor fields.
So instead of nerfing stuff that didn't needed it, just to be on the safe side, how about dedicating more time to figuring ways of discouraging blobs, in a way that actually works.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:26:00 -
[371]
This is actally an indirect boost to the Pilgrim.
1- Approach target gunboat 2- Unclock, lock, use 2 tracking disruptors with tracking scripts 3- Laugth while even webbed you're still orbiting too fast for him to touch you. 4- Profit. ------------------------------------------
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Morphisat
Rakeriku Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:26:00 -
[372]
These are certainly interesting changes. Except the people that flew these ridiculous fast ships (for a hefty price tag) I think most players will enjoy these changes.
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Chaeidras
Amarr Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:29:00 -
[373]
Originally by: ApaKaka
Originally by: Hoshino Rika hmm most of poeple dont see that the MWD will be affected only by scramblers, the 7.5km ones >_> vagas still orbit at 20 >_>
Gallente recons have bonus to warp scrambler. So i guess you can imagine a warp scrambler II having 12.5 km range or so after the changes, add the bonus from recon, you have 30ish or so km scram+mwd reset range?
Hm don't know if I misunderstand that but...
Originally by: EVEMon Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 80% reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration.
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
Arazus don't get a bonus to warp scrams ... ---- There is always a bigger fish |
Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:29:00 -
[374]
Edited by: Veldya on 25/07/2008 14:30:18 Wow, so much Triumverate/PL whining, who would have thought?
Yeah, these changes are going to hurt you if all you have ever done in EVE is bypass 90% of the game in an over-powered nano-setup. Why should so many aspects of the game not apply to nano-ships when it applies to everything else?
You want to sneak into enemy territory, fly some black-ops ships. The only reason you fly nano ships is because it makes bubbles obsolete and most weapons can't hit you, the few that can hit you do no damage if they do hit you.
Been a long time coming. I am sick of having to take gangs of 5 people to track and tackle ONE of you twits down. Nano's aren't the answer to blobing gangs, they are the reason for blobbing gangs. If you are going to take on a nano gang you need absurd numbers to lock the ****ers down.
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Highpriest Sylvia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:30:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Julien makka
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lemonx This is just stupid. Good work on nerfing nano before doing anything to the blob. Its great how skills shouldnt affect pvp at all.
skill ...
orbit & f1-f8? whow you amaze me!
Is it possible to be even more cluelesS?
yep, one could be you :)
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:31:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Actually, get a gellente recon, scram range is 20-30Km Additionally yeah, vagas orbit at 20km, doing what 100DPS max? Lrn2play.
Scramble not distupt. True sansha warp scrambler-> 10km, 100% bonus with Galente recon V -> 20km warp disruptor II - 24km
learn to orbit at 20100metres?
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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THRASHER23
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:32:00 -
[377]
"For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock."
Next time you want feed back on a controversial nerf that you obviously are bias to try not to come off so condescending. Anyway your nerf here seems to advocate a way of gaming that your servers are not able to efficiently support, blobage. And how exactly is guerilla warfare suppose to be a viable tactic if speed is nerfed? It's a FACT that if want to have a chance at winning against an overwhelming larger enemy, smaller and faster is the way to go. This nerf if an obvious contradiction to your goal to keep guerrilla warfare a useful tactic. For death and glory
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:33:00 -
[378]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
- small gang approaches blob - small gang engages blob - small gang turns on MWD to flee from blob - blob fires missiles at targets that have no speedtank and massive sig radius - blob kills small gang
So explain to me again how this change preserves guerilla warfare?
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Julien makka
The Mutineers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:33:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Julien makka
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lemonx This is just stupid. Good work on nerfing nano before doing anything to the blob. Its great how skills shouldnt affect pvp at all.
skill ...
orbit & f1-f8? whow you amaze me!
Is it possible to be even more cluelesS?
yep, one could be you :)
Thank god i know better. Please consider the fact that pvp is not like your average mission.
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Groves111
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:33:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Mr Mozzie Edited by: Mr Mozzie on 25/07/2008 13:15:12 This is [not] very fair for those people who have spent billions on snake sets, officer speed mods etc. The value of their investment will be destroyed overnight.
Perhaps these people could keep their old version mods unchanged, but they would no longer be spawned. The new nerfed mods could then be introduced in their place.
The old modules etc will dissapear from the game gradually through attrition, and the old ones will become very prized items.
Or they could get a cape for their character in ambulation.
:'( I'll take the cape. ---
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:33:00 -
[381]
Edited by: Serilla on 25/07/2008 14:33:32
Originally by: Shadowsword This is actally an indirect boost to the Pilgrim.
1- Approach target gunboat 2- Unclock, lock, use 2 tracking disruptors with tracking scripts 3- Laugth while even webbed you're still orbiting too fast for him to touch you. 4- Profit.
Where's the module that counters missiles now (lol defenders) __________________
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Species 3758
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:33:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Actually, get a gellente recon, scram range is 20-30Km Additionally yeah, vagas orbit at 20km, doing what 100DPS max? Lrn2play.
Scramble not distupt. True sansha warp scrambler-> 10km, 100% bonus with Galente recon V -> 20km warp disruptor II - 24km
learn to orbit at 20100metres?
Don't you mix sth up here? warp scrams are the close range ones, arazus don't get a bonus on warp scrams only disruptors
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:34:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 25/07/2008 14:35:05
Originally by: Chaeidras
Arazus don't get a bonus to warp scrams ...
currently ingame they do get a bonus to scram and disruptor range. tried and tested.
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Alex Salas
BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:34:00 -
[384]
Why train for minmatar?
You have effectively nerfed a race of ships.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:34:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Species 3758
Don't you mix sth up here? warp scrams are the close range ones, arazus don't get a bonus on warp scrams only disruptors
they get to both
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:34:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Chaeidras Arazus don't get a bonus to warp scrams ...
''Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level''
just because it says DISRUPTOR doesnt mean it only applies to them....lurk moar/play the game/etc etc
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:35:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lorna Loot I love the way all the shit alliances and the alts are the ones supporting this.
Oh and thanks, almost every blaster ship is now pretty useless.
Warp in, target is 10km away. MWD towards them, webbed, scrammed and MWD deactivates.... Sit at 8km. Die.
Because Gallente needed nerfing again.
oh because your corp/ally is so great? deal with the incoming changes or don't, either way I don't care!
If you don't care then what you doing replying?
I can deal with speed reducing but killing off an entire race is shit
Lets see now, blaster boats. Domi, Mega, Hype, Astarte, Kronos, Eos, Brutix, Myrm, Phobos, Deimos, Thorax, Vexor, Taranis.
All will have issues ever reaching their targets against another gang due to having their MWD's off-line all the time.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:36:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:36:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Odre Echee Has anyone else noticed?
Pro-change : apparently does this out of spite, "lol tears sweet", "lol serves you right"
Anti-change : apparently finds time to explain why it's a bad idea.
Must be reading a different thread tbh cause that's not what I see here ...
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Species 3758
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Species 3758
Don't you mix sth up here? warp scrams are the close range ones, arazus don't get a bonus on warp scrams only disruptors
they get to both
kk learned another thing :) thx
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[391]
Originally by: THRASHER23 "For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock." Next time you want feed back on a controversial nerf that you obviously are bias to try not to come off so condescending.
You call that condescending? You spent much time on these forums? Believe me that's polite and pleasant and businesslike. If you want condescending it can be arranged.
Originally by: THRASHER23 Anyway your nerf here seems to advocate a way of gaming that your servers are not able to efficiently support, blobage. And how exactly is guerilla warfare suppose to be a viable tactic if speed is nerfed? It's a FACT that if want to have a chance at winning against an overwhelming larger enemy, smaller and faster is the way to go. This nerf if an obvious contradiction to your goal to keep guerrilla warfare a useful tactic.
Small and fast guerilla warfare is a useful tactic and doesn't need nano-ships to do it. It's just a matter of what you do and how you do it. Over in Factional Warfare, those of us outnumbered on the Amarr side have had no choice but to use it, and we're not using nano-ships. Since when did we prohibit thinking outside the status quo in EVE?
I would agree laggy blobs aren't the way to go, but that's virtually impossible to fix because people always flock together, it's natural. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika hmm most of poeple dont see that the MWD will be affected only by scramblers, the 7.5km ones >_> vagas still orbit at 20 >_>
Really ? An Arazu can scrambling to 22500m with domi scrambler. Now the CCP will killing lot of minamatar ship. U try to use a Hyena or Matar recons with 50% str. webs. Ridiculous. 5000 m/s will slow to 1250 m/s. Another crap balancing, which will make unuseable many shiptypes. (Vagabond,hyena,rapier,huginn) Long live the Caldari CP.
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Lui Kai
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Odre Echee Has anyone else noticed?
Pro-change : apparently does this out of spite, "lol tears sweet", "lol serves you right"
Anti-change : apparently finds time to explain why it's a bad idea.
Disclaimer - I'm a mission running carebear. This change has no effect on me, one way or the naught.
I think the reason you're not seeing a lot of "explination" on the pro-change side is fairly obvious.
Firstly - CCP's already explained it in the dev blog. When a particular fitting style leads to being so strong that it's considered silly to do anything else, when 80% of pvp-folks fit a particular way, when entire alliances are built around that style of fitting - it's a tad bit overpowered, and something needs to change.
Secondly - fail tears are f-in hillarious, and spite is fun. ---------------- Ambulation Answers
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Chaeidras Arazus don't get a bonus to warp scrams ...
''Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level''
just because it says DISRUPTOR doesnt mean it only applies to them....lurk moar/play the game/etc etc
tested on lachesis. 16km scram on t2 scrambler
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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rgreat
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:37:00 -
[395]
Originally by: BuIIseye Carebear Raven Pilot > help i lost another raven ganked by a vagabond CCP > roger, nerfing them
Seriously CCP, i don't even fly nanoships, yet i see this nerf affecting everyone.
Arazu/Lachesis will be way better than Rapier/Huginn. Missile boats get a stealth boost, because missiles don't need tracking (Drake's/Cerb's/Raven's + Arazu's combo is the new FOTM for medium sized gangs). Solo Pvp becomes ever more harder because, now, a solo shortrange fitted battleship moves ever more slower, you need a tackler (can't call that solo pvp anymore now can I). Encourages blobbing even more as people that used to travel alone, or roam, now go with bigger gangs to be safer. Jumping into bubble camps are now signing your death warrent, even with superior tactics or firepower, you end up dieing to a much inferior defender, increaseing the already stupid ammout of whines about titans and cynojammers. People will go back to chokepoint camping instead of roaming since it's much more comfortable and easy.
Basicaly EVE becomes slower and boreing.
Don't get me wrong thou, I can understand the need to nerf ships with ludicrous speeds, but can't it be done just by adding stack penalty's to mwd + speed modules/snake implants/gang bonus's and replacing the effect of the X-Instinct Booster to sig radius reduction. The scrambler boost is also a nice thing but it shouldn't affect battleships in my opinion, the stack nerf should be enough to make sure battleships never pass the 1.5km/s which is enough to bypass interdictor or mobile disruptor fields.
So instead of nerfing stuff that didn't needed it, just to be on the safe side, how about dedicating more time to figuring ways of discouraging blobs, in a way that actually works.
This man know what he talking about.
+1. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:38:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Species 3758
Don't you mix sth up here? warp scrams are the close range ones, arazus don't get a bonus on warp scrams only disruptors
they get to both
Which is my biggest objection in the proposed changes. That is WAY WAY too much power to give to a single module, it's so overpowered that you are going to see them literally every single engagement on every sort of ship.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:38:00 -
[397]
Hi, I'm a Thorax, just trying to get into range of the enemy before dying ... oh damn did my MWD just get shut off 24 km from the enemy? Surely I can make it in with an AB ... oh wait 500 m/s, I'm dead, especially when I hit web range. And I haven't even considered the rest of the crap.
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR DAMN SKULL, CCP?
This isn't a nanoship nerf, this is yet another screw shortrange, i.e. Gallente, nerf. Remove your head from your hindquarters and think about the whole damn gamge. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:38:00 -
[398]
Edited by: ApaKaka on 25/07/2008 14:40:31
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Actually, get a gellente recon, scram range is 20-30Km Additionally yeah, vagas orbit at 20km, doing what 100DPS max? Lrn2play.
Scramble not distupt. True sansha warp scrambler-> 10km, 100% bonus with Galente recon V -> 20km warp disruptor II - 24km
learn to orbit at 20100metres?
As far as I know, recons also give bonus to warp scramblers, could be a mispelling in the info, been known to happen.
Also CCP is boosting the scrambler range from lowest 7.5km to highest 15 km in the same patch.
TBH, this isn't even about nano-hacs and stuff. I like what the other guy said about MWD's INTENDED USAGE, which is a short speed burst. That should have been what they concentrated on, because it's just as important for big BS fleets to get a short burst to reapproach gates or tackle quickly to use MWD.
Just nerf MWDs and add an activation delay and problem solved, no more perma MWD "haha you can't touch me" gangs.
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:38:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 25/07/2008 14:41:13 Nano's do not need more countermeasures.. http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=3_9&page=1
instead fix drone orbit speed. reduce missile hit ration and increase missile speed.
i have a thousand other suggestions i can make to make life a little harder for us nano's i would never EVER vouch for any of these.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:38:00 -
[400]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 14:38:29
Originally by: KingCappo - small gang approaches blob - small gang engages blob - small gang turns on MWD to flee from blob - blob fires missiles at targets that have no speedtank and massive sig radius - blob kills small gang
So explain to me again how this change preserves guerilla warfare?
Explain to me why you feel you should be able to avoid committing to a fight when they changed WCS so those without lots of money couldn't?
Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:39:00 -
[401]
Originally by: BuIIseye
Missile boats get a stealth boost, because missiles don't need tracking (Drake's/Cerb's/Raven's + Arazu's combo is the new FOTM for medium sized gangs).
Yeah, because hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage doesn't need fixing, does it? Missiles didn't need a stealth boost, they needed a loud freaking bandwagon boost.
Missile damage is reduced based on speed and target painters don't really help because they don't address the speed element while you have more options to improve the tracking difficulties.
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silken mouth
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:39:00 -
[402]
some suggestions here
posted before knowing about the new dev blog...
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Malena Panic
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:40:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Tob'ias Sjodin Except there will be an arazu at every gatecamp now making you dead in the water. ^^
Oh please, server + module lag means you will always get at least one MWD pulse, which will get you back to the gate or let you coast out of bubble range - and more importantly out of the Zoo's anemic 15km scram range.
Change is good, the sky isn't falling, and PvPers will still dominate the weekend warriors. ... |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:40:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
-
DesuSigs |
Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:40:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
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BlackHorizon
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:40:00 -
[406]
Love this change CCP and Nozh. <3
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:41:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Riho lol.. show me a proper thread ... all i have seen for the last year is...."whaaaaaaaa i got killed by nanoz.... nerf nerf nerf because im to stupid to think and adapt"
Strange, all I've seen is 'wahhhhh I can't kill anything unless I nano and am too stupid to try something else'.
i dont fly nano anymore.... i solo around in blaster ships and other type of tanked/plated ships.
this hurts me as much as the nano ppl.
and yes i USED to nano alot... but cba anymore ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:41:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Hi, I'm a Thorax, just trying to get into range of the enemy before dying ... oh damn did my MWD just get shut off 24 km from the enemy? Surely I can make it in with an AB ... oh wait 500 m/s, I'm dead, especially when I hit web range. And I haven't even considered the rest of the crap.
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR DAMN SKULL, CCP?
This isn't a nanoship nerf, this is yet another screw shortrange, i.e. Gallente, nerf. Remove your head from your hindquarters and think about the whole damn gamge.
heh your mewd omn rax shut down 7.5km from target, excep for domination fited arazu with skill V which shut down at 22kms, still, still fit domination disruptor and you get 28km >_>and i dont believe lot of people will fit scrablers >_> still distu and web looks more effective
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:42:00 -
[409]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 14:42:02
Originally by: Richard Angevian Which is my biggest objection in the proposed changes. That is WAY WAY too much power to give to a single module, it's so overpowered that you are going to see them literally every single engagement on every sort of ship.
The irony is that part of this rebalance is supposed to be about getting rid of 'must have' modules.
-
DesuSigs |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:42:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Odre Echee Has anyone else noticed?
Pro-change : apparently does this out of spite, "lol tears sweet", "lol serves you right"
Anti-change : apparently finds time to explain why it's a bad idea.
Rubbish. People have spent months explaining why nano's cause problems, even nano-pilots themselves, but those against the notion of losing their massive advantage in the ability to run away have spent the entire time going 'la-la-la it's working fine, adapt, learn to play' and I think understandably everyone else is now saying 'hah, now it's your turn to adapt you arrogant asses'. Whilst somewhat childish, it's perfectly human. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Hi, I'm a Thorax, just trying to get into range of the enemy before dying ... oh damn did my MWD just get shut off 24 km from the enemy? Surely I can make it in with an AB ... oh wait 500 m/s, I'm dead, especially when I hit web range. And I haven't even considered the rest of the crap.
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR DAMN SKULL, CCP?
This isn't a nanoship nerf, this is yet another screw shortrange, i.e. Gallente, nerf. Remove your head from your hindquarters and think about the whole damn gamge.
lrn2read
SCRAMS NOT DISRUPTORS...Jesus..
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Crazdale
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[412]
I'm glad to hear the dev's are addressin' these problems and changes are underway. It has always seemed wrong to have one or two classes (ship types) in a game be able to completely ravage all they come across without anyone else standing a fair chance.
Well, I'm sure those out there with no skill who rely on these cheap speed tactics are gonna be complaining, but IMO, I feel this is a great move and hopefully will restore more of a balance to PvP. As the dev says, each ship should have a speed which is suitable for the size and type of ship to be able to play its part.
Also, it's about time webs got a nerf! 90% really did take away all your options once caught... ;-/
Great job CCP!
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Riho lol.. show me a proper thread ... all i have seen for the last year is...."whaaaaaaaa i got killed by nanoz.... nerf nerf nerf because im to stupid to think and adapt"
Strange, all I've seen is 'wahhhhh I can't kill anything unless I nano and am too stupid to try something else'.
i dont fly nano anymore.... i solo around in blaster ships and other type of tanked/plated ships.
this hurts me as much as the nano ppl.
and yes i USED to nano alot... but cba anymore
Didn't say it applied to you personally; I echoed my alternate view of noticing a trend. If you're taking offence, you're either subconsciously aware that you might have been wrong, or reading far too much into what I posted. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[414]
Wow this is awful. Eve is becoming more about numbers numbers numbers every single day. Why couldn't you guys introduce something good, you know, like a boost instead of completely changing a style of gameplay that a core player base has come to rely on to keep us safe from blobs and play the game that we pay for?
A lot of us don't have the numbers to try to blob / brute force all the time.... + it's not fun at all.
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Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: KingCappo - small gang approaches blob - small gang engages blob - small gang turns on MWD to flee from blob - blob fires missiles at targets that have no speedtank and massive sig radius - blob kills small gang
So explain to me again how this change preserves guerilla warfare?
Explain to me why you feel you should be able to avoid committing to a fight when they changed WCS so those without lots of money couldn't?
Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
from:
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Please think before you post.
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:44:00 -
[417]
the proble will be that the mwd bonus on deimos is loosing it importance >_> i now like the proposed change form half year ago >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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KayO
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:45:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:46:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 14:42:02
Originally by: Richard Angevian Which is my biggest objection in the proposed changes. That is WAY WAY too much power to give to a single module, it's so overpowered that you are going to see them literally every single engagement on every sort of ship.
The irony is that part of this rebalance is supposed to be about getting rid of 'must have' modules.
You're not thinking outside the box. A warp scrambler will have zero effect on an afterburner. Propose that ABs get a small increase if you feel they're too slow. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:46:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Ikoras The mods and rigs aren't the problem. The problem lies in the implants and command ship bonuses added to it. Snakes are overpowered. but they also cost a whole lot of isk.
I can see where you're coming from, but as someone whos flown a claymore pretty much solidly for the last 3/4 of a year, I disagree with you about the gang bonuses.
It is indeed a big boost, and doesn't cost much compared to buying a snake set, but it also comes with its own set of issues which don't affect implant sets at all:
- Skills - Gang bonuses really only come into their own once you have the mindlink; which needs cybernetics, the basic and the warfare spec skills to 5, along with being able to fly command ships in the first place. Since most characters get rolled with relatively low charisma nowadays, sorting a character out to provide gang mod bonuses is generally a 6+ month job (add to that wing command 4 at minimum for any decent fleet)
- Fleet Bonus System - If you're in a fleet providing bonuses as wing commander, you _must_ have at least (in system with you) a squad commander with leadership 5 before either of you receive the bonuses, and both wing commander and squad commander must be in the same system as you (if you're a squad member) to receive the bonuses. If your gang gets at all split up (eg. by fighting both sides of a gate camp) your gang bonuses are useless.
- Ship - The gang mods rely on a single ship staying alive; in a nanogang, it is very likely that the claymore itself is the slowest ship in the gang BY FAR, meaning it's the most likely to get caught and die and you lose your gang bonuses.
- Gang Mods - They dont work in warp. Jesus christ, if there's 1 thing I wish CCP would fix it's making them work in warp. They already have a load of downsides and the fact that you can't have them on 85% of the time while you're roaming is pretty damn frustrating (eg. someone needs your gang bonuses to survive and you're still in warp because you're the fattest, slowest ship in the gang )
Basically my point is - all that snakes require, is a lot of isk. Gang mods require a shitload of training time, a load of ballache, and rely on your beloved claymore pilot not dying (this in itself is difficult given the fact it's the most likely to get caught by a big gatecamp).
There is still (I'd guess at least) relatively few max specced claymore pilots in the game, and it is still a very niche role; just off the top of my head I can think of only 3-4 claymore pilots (of the 650 in PL) who use it regularly, including myself.
I don't think it's fair to nerf gang mods (speed gang mods only) given their generally limited use (they are a specialized tool after all) and the fact they suffer from the problems listed above, when a HG snake set can be bought & paid for, suffers from none of the problems and gives you a bigger speed bonus.
Also what's stopping say... a big blob of battleships (like the ones we usually fight in nanos) from fitting their own gang mods for web range, armour / shield resists and the like? If one side has the option, why doesn't the other?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:46:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Lui Kai
Firstly - CCP's already explained it in the dev blog. When a particular fitting style leads to being so strong that it's considered silly to do anything else, when 80% of pvp-folks fit a particular way, when entire alliances are built around that style of fitting - it's a tad bit overpowered, and something needs to change.
Its used by 80% or more of the gangs in eve because its fun and removing it so two blobs can sit opposite each other and shoot until the one side with the most ships left over is considered the winner is not.
If i spend 5 billion fitting out my hac for speed id expect it to be as fast as a ceptor that cost 20 mil including fittings, how the **** is that imbalance or overpowered?.
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Borasatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:47:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Apertotes i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
No tanking mods are needed with ludicrous speed since you can't be hit.
Quote: my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
Because such speeds cause problems with the game engine.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[423]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 14:49:29
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: KingCappo - small gang approaches blob - small gang engages blob - small gang turns on MWD to flee from blob - blob fires missiles at targets that have no speedtank and massive sig radius - blob kills small gang
So explain to me again how this change preserves guerilla warfare?
Explain to me why you feel you should be able to avoid committing to a fight when they changed WCS so those without lots of money couldn't?
Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
from:
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Please think before you post.
I did, you are misreading. Nowhere will you find guerilla warfare applied directly force on force. That is what you are promoting.
Note the very important line here: 'attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.'. Since when is a blob a vulnerable target?
You are alleging that the Swedish navy can engage the US navy force on force and win because they can orbit them faster and run away. I think the US navy might disagree. On the other hand a small force can cause disruption and kill stragglers or vulnerable targets avoiding the main force. That is guerilla warfare. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Borasatar
No tanking mods are needed with ludicrous speed since you can't be hit.
Speed is the tank.
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 14:38:29
Originally by: KingCappo - small gang approaches blob - small gang engages blob - small gang turns on MWD to flee from blob - blob fires missiles at targets that have no speedtank and massive sig radius - blob kills small gang
So explain to me again how this change preserves guerilla warfare?
Explain to me why you feel you should be able to avoid committing to a fight when they changed WCS so those without lots of money couldn't?
Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
"Boosters
Although these arenÆt consumed a whole lot (D.A.R.E. at work?), we need to reduce the number of independent systems that affect maximum velocity. We propose to have the X-Instinct boosters cause a reduction in signature radius, rather than an increased base velocity."
They will have mechanics to reduce signature radius and am sure they will tweak the base mechanics so it is not unreasonable. But, the days are soon to be numbered when you could just ignore any Caldari ship just because you can travel at a speed which renders all missiles ineffective.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[426]
Originally by: KayO
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
No, we need another Sci-fi mmo and leave this sinking boat.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika the proble will be that the mwd bonus on deimos is loosing it importance >_> i now like the proposed change form half year ago >_>
Its not just the Deimos, its most of the Gallente blaster ships. Sure we can fit an AB instead but the speed increase will be so much smaller a single web will slow you down to barely above none AB speed.
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Bfoster
Minmatar Rising Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[428]
Ok nerf web's? U do know the effective range of most T1 AC's is about 1400m right? So I am trying to shoot a frig with a AB that is webbed, but he is still getting out of range, because A.) I have AB and I am still slower than him in my BC or Crusier and B.) I have MWD to catch him but he is scramming me and my MWD is dead.. But my Web is doing nothing to him cause it is nerfed.. Although u did nerf the speed's of ships, but he is still faster... So basicly he can get out of range of both my web and my scrammer if he wants at any time?
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:48:00 -
[429]
I don't nano I don't like nano's and I think they needed a nerf... but I like minmatar ships and we seem to betting a lot of love from the nerf bat lately. One thing that ****es me off is why ccp are intent on giving our ew bonuses too the marauders and then making them better at it than our ships... we only have target painters and webs and your making marauders the better webber and giving our target painters to the golem.
minmatar ew is beyond poor, it doesn't really exist. Instead of giving minmatar ew you give us tacklers (huggin etc.) and token target painters which can be used by anyone easily and are pretty useless all round. So if the minmatar specialization is completely speed/tackle at the cost of no ew and average other areas why do you keep creating ships that make our specialization useless? with bubbles, hactors, interceptors, marauders being as good or better at tackling than the average minmatar ship what is our race gonna be useful for anymore?
Seriously I love this nerf as it will stop the ludicrous speeds but you need to give minmatar a few boosts or bring back one of our old racial strengths (alpha strikes pretty please).
Typhado
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:49:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
So small gang meets large gang and now dies instead of being able to run away? How does this not make sense?
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:49:00 -
[431]
Edited by: Riho on 25/07/2008 14:50:06
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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THRASHER23
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lorna Loot I love the way all the shit alliances and the alts are the ones supporting this.
Oh and thanks, almost every blaster ship is now pretty useless.
Warp in, target is 10km away. MWD towards them, webbed, scrammed and MWD deactivates.... Sit at 8km. Die.
Because Gallente needed nerfing again.
oh because your corp/ally is so great? deal with the incoming changes or don't, either way I don't care!
If you don't care then what you doing replying?
I can deal with speed reducing but killing off an entire race is shit
Lets see now, blaster boats. Domi, Mega, Hype, Astarte, Kronos, Eos, Brutix, Myrm, Phobos, Deimos, Thorax, Vexor, Taranis.
All will have issues ever reaching their targets against another gang due to having their MWD's off-line all the time.
what do you mean? Fit an afterburner on the boat and no worries. There is no CONUNDRUM with solving that problem. For death and glory
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:50:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Note the very important line here: 'attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.'. Since when is a blob a vulnerable target?
The are vulnerable because they are slow. Ambush is about attacking a larger force, picking off a few targets, then retreating. Its not about taking on the entire body of the enemy fleet.
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A Sinner
Logical Progression
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:50:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: KayO
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink" |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:50:00 -
[435]
Originally by: KayO
Originally by: Ikvar BLASTER SHIPS ARE NOW BALANCED.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:51:00 -
[436]
LEAVE NANO'S ALONE! :crocker:
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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rgreat
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:51:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
And why not?
You want to make the only way to counter big blob by even bigger blob?
Say hello to even greater lag monster then. Also there are no fun in blobs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:51:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
You are stupid. Guerilla warfare is about hitting where the enemy isn't in strength. It's NOT a frontal charge against overwhelming numbers. ------------------------------------------
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:51:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: Zikka
Originally by: Odre Echee Has anyone else noticed?
Pro-change : apparently does this out of spite, "lol tears sweet", "lol serves you right"
Anti-change : apparently finds time to explain why it's a bad idea.
That's because pro-change have been arguing for something like this and making the case very well for the past 6 months.
There is nothing more to add, the case has been made.
lol.. show me a proper thread ... all i have seen for the last year is...."whaaaaaaaa i got killed by nanoz.... nerf nerf nerf because im to stupid to think and adapt"
http://eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=3_29&page=3
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=597162
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=798420
There are a few to get you started. It's beside the point though, as even if you haven't seen the arguments and understood them it is quite clear that the devs have.
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Saint Lucifer
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:51:00 -
[440]
I think a fair few people are over reacting slightly, its not like all nano hacs are going to suddenly be nerfed to 1k/s, and getting a battleship gang out of a bubble isnt going to be much different from before.. it would take a shitload of tacklers to catch a significant number before they got out of any (now slightly smaller) bubble.
However i agree that one or two of these changes would be preferable to all of them. Such a reduction of webber effecitveness simply screws everybody over, and unless it is combined with some sort of range boost, it is a foolish change to make.
I also think the scrambler deactivating mwds is a bit stupid... you're basically nerfing webs and then adding a new, different type of web, once again limiting the amount of midslots many people have for a shield tank or regular EW. Essentially you are making what we know as a web now, into a web requiring two midslots. There wouldnt be much difference in simply using two webs, apart from it working on those people who start using AfterBurners instead of MWDs.
Its quite hard to see how things will unfold until we all play it on the test server. Although the whole thing seems a little unneccessary (as was previously quoted, people should just learn to use neuts or train for nano countering ships), i welcome the change if it introduce a wider spectrum of viable ship setups and tactics. What i would hate to see is for people to all suddenly start using one or two types of ship setup after the changes. (cerb+falcon fleets ftw?)
Finally, all those guys who are like OMGZ ARAZU BUFF, you're pretty stupid. Its basically like being able to stick a shitty web on something at 15-20km... once you've done that, congratulations, if you engaged anybody with half a brain you'll be dead because the arazu sucks at everything.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:52:00 -
[441]
Originally by: THRASHER23
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Highpriest Sylvia
Originally by: Lorna Loot I love the way all the shit alliances and the alts are the ones supporting this.
Oh and thanks, almost every blaster ship is now pretty useless.
Warp in, target is 10km away. MWD towards them, webbed, scrammed and MWD deactivates.... Sit at 8km. Die.
Because Gallente needed nerfing again.
oh because your corp/ally is so great? deal with the incoming changes or don't, either way I don't care!
If you don't care then what you doing replying?
I can deal with speed reducing but killing off an entire race is shit
Lets see now, blaster boats. Domi, Mega, Hype, Astarte, Kronos, Eos, Brutix, Myrm, Phobos, Deimos, Thorax, Vexor, Taranis.
All will have issues ever reaching their targets against another gang due to having their MWD's off-line all the time.
what do you mean? Fit an afterburner on the boat and no worries. There is no CONUNDRUM with solving that problem.
AB + web = slightly above standard none AB speed. But it doesn't matter I'm sure my armour rigged ships will be able to c........ wait no they wont. Dont worry.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:53:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Myra2007 I have a question that may sound a little stupid: would these warp scramblers still warp scramble?
So will the shutdown of mwds be an additional feature or a substitution for the current +2 warp scrambling ability?
The blog definitely implies they will as one of the examples is of a ship fitting a single scrambler instead of both a disrupter and a web. (Stealth nerf for people short on mid slots!)
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whisk
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:53:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Lui Kai
Firstly - CCP's already explained it in the dev blog. When a particular fitting style leads to being so strong that it's considered silly to do anything else, when 80% of pvp-folks fit a particular way, when entire alliances are built around that style of fitting - it's a tad bit overpowered, and something needs to change.
Its used by 80% or more of the gangs in eve because its fun and removing it so two blobs can sit opposite each other and shoot until the one side with the most ships left over is considered the winner is not.
If i spend 5 billion fitting out my hac for speed id expect it to be as fast as a ceptor that cost 20 mil including fittings, how the **** is that imbalance or overpowered?.
owned
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Borasatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:54:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Ruoska May the age of nanowhoring finally come to end :)
...however, your goals state that gorillawarfare should remain viable, and speed has been alarmingly large factor in that, yet the blog makes no mention on how this will be made up for that kind of fighting.
I demand gorillawarfare buffs!
So... that's like a chestbeating mod and banana guns?
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:54:00 -
[445]
warp scrambler disabling mwd sux, if ccp does this, it should not stop ship from warping, I mean it is not like every ship has 7 mids for MWD/AB/DISRUPTOR/SCRAM/WEB/CAP BOOSTER/WEB because this will be all mandatory for pvp then and it will cripple some ships even more like erm, Assault ships. adjusting speeds would be enough but this is just crazy.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:54:00 -
[446]
Edited by: Lorna Loot on 25/07/2008 14:54:35
Originally by: Stab Wounds I AM IN IDIOT AND SHOULD STOP POSTING ABOUT THINGS I DON'T UNDERSTAND
There, I fixed that for you.
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walterwheasle
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:54:00 -
[447]
Edited by: walterwheasle on 25/07/2008 14:55:20 Personally if this goes ahead u will loose my 4 accounts straight away, to make it worse my nav skills and cybernetics 5 for snakes become useless can u give me time back.
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:55:00 -
[448]
Answering a few common questions:
Do WCS counter the Warp Scramblers ability to disable MWD's?
- No, not in our current implementation. We've thought about it, but as is, they don't.
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Will my MWD be affected by Bubbles?
- No, it won't.
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:55:00 -
[449]
Originally by: SetInEdill CCP, minmatars ships after this fix will be trash.
Can you change all minmatar-profile skills to galent-profile skills?
well, our ships are ment to look like they are made of trash.. maybe they just bringing them in line with their inteded "feels and looks"
also, i second your profile skills change, but i would like amarr skils.. --------- I want to phew phew
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Big Al
Stoat's Ultimate Carebear Adventure
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:55:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Ikoras
the nano nerf i can understand to a certain extent. The mods and rigs aren't the problem. The problem lies in the implants and command ship bonuses added to it. Snakes are overpowered.
WTS 1 overpowered maxed claymore pilot.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:56:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
You are stupid. Guerilla warfare is about hitting where the enemy isn't in strength. It's NOT a frontal charge against overwhelming numbers.
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Nanos v RR BS blob are pretty useless without massive ECM support.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:56:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
FIT AN AFTERBURNER!
Seriously, red bold text really doesn't help your point get across, it just makes you look childish. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:57:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic warp scrambler disabling mwd sux, if ccp does this, it should not stop ship from warping, I mean it is not like every ship has 7 mids for MWD/AB/DISRUPTOR/SCRAM/WEB/CAP BOOSTER/WEB because this will be all mandatory for pvp then and it will cripple some ships even more like erm, Assault ships. adjusting speeds would be enough but this is just crazy.
How about you stick to crying instead of speculating.
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:57:00 -
[454]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Remind me what the whole point of scripts was again?
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Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:57:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Ikvar NERF CCP.
-------------------------------------------------
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:58:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Nanos v RR BS blob are pretty useless without massive ECM support.
You're continuing to quote this like it applies. It doesn't; move on and discuss blobs for god's sake. It's a valid issue totally irrelevant to nano's - blobs affect everyone. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
EmpO3
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:58:00 -
[457]
If you take away speed then thats one less choice for pvpers, who only have 3 choices at the moment being : Nano, Tank, Gank.
If you take away speed then its going to be welcome to tank and gank online, which leads to even more welcome to capitals online.
Im sorry but i dont want to play welcome to capitals online.
NANO GANGS CAN BE EASILY STOPED BY RAPIERS AND HUGINNS THATS WHAT THEY ARE MADE FOR!! NOOBS NEED TO STOP COMPLAINING AND GET HUGINNS AND RAPIERS IN THEIR DAMN FLEETS!
If you nerf speed i will quit eve, 2 acconts lost ccp.
Nerfing speed is the best way to cater to the noobs of eve.
And the last point, a ceptor that dosnt do about 6k+/s is a dead ceptor, meaning a speed nerf ,may lead to them being obsolete.
BOYCOT THE SPEED NERF!!!
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Einstein's Ghost
Codex Aureus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:58:00 -
[458]
Thank you CCP, thank you so much...
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:59:00 -
[459]
Whats going to happen to blaster boats?
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:59:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
FIT AN AFTERBURNER!
Seriously, red bold text really doesn't help your point get across, it just makes you look childish.
SHIT NOW I'M WEBBED AND GET THE SAME SPEED PRE AB
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:59:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth You're not thinking outside the box. A warp scrambler will have zero effect on an afterburner. Propose that ABs get a small increase if you feel they're too slow.
This is a joke. I can tell from some of the absurdity and from having seen a lot of jokes in my time. -
DesuSigs |
Kazan Bho
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:59:00 -
[462]
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis:
The four of you have, at some point in the recent past actually played the game?
Your best ideas for reducing speed in game include;
1) Nerfing the most effective ships at reducing speed (Rapier, Hyena) 2) Nerfing the most effective module for reducing speed 3) Increasing the speed difference between Inties and everything else
I can only assume that this meeting was held at some seedy bar, late at night and decisions were taken while everyone was distracted by scantily clad ladies shaking their lovelies and whatnot.
Essentially, CCP seems to be homogenizing all the ships so that nothing actually stands out as being useful for anything in particular.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:59:00 -
[463]
Originally by: EmpO3 If you take away speed then thats one less choice for pvpers, who only have 3 choices at the moment being : Nano, Tank, Gank.
If you take away speed then its going to be welcome to tank and gank online, which leads to even more welcome to capitals online.
Im sorry but i dont want to play welcome to capitals online.
NANO GANGS CAN BE EASILY STOPED BY RAPIERS AND HUGINNS THATS WHAT THEY ARE MADE FOR!! NOOBS NEED TO STOP COMPLAINING AND GET HUGINNS AND RAPIERS IN THEIR DAMN FLEETS!
If you nerf speed i will quit eve, 2 acconts lost ccp.
Nerfing speed is the best way to cater to the noobs of eve.
And the last point, a ceptor that dosnt do about 6k+/s is a dead ceptor, meaning a speed nerf ,may lead to them being obsolete.
BOYCOT THE SPEED NERF!!!
yet more stuffs for me to has...k go
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:00:00 -
[464]
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Nuff said in my view. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:00:00 -
[465]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:03:36
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
What the **** kind of an argument is this?
Edit: Small roaming gangs were effective before snakes and polys because ships had half as much HP, didn't fit 3 plates, and RR wasn't really an effective strategy because logistics ships didn't exist.
Is your argument really, "Well, it worked before, so it will work again, despite the fact that every aspect of the game has changed since then."? ---
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:00:00 -
[466]
Tank you, thank you so much CCP.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:01:00 -
[467]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth You're not thinking outside the box. A warp scrambler will have zero effect on an afterburner. Propose that ABs get a small increase if you feel they're too slow.
This is a joke. I can tell from some of the absurdity and from having seen a lot of jokes in my time.
Yes it's a joke. However, since nano's were a bad joke, I think it's time to find some new material. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Stiletto
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:01:00 -
[468]
Minmatar Character for Sale
LVL 5 RECON HIGH NAV SKILLS
2 x POLY RIGGED RAPIERS 2 X POLY RIGGED VAGA
1 isk or best offer,
CCP this is the most lame idea ever, This will become BLOB Online, What fun is that, This kill all Solo and Small Gang warfare which is enjoyable way of combat, Why not boost missles instead of nerfing Minmatar,
I like roaming in small gangs now with this being implement that gone out of the window,
If this goes ahead then my 5 accounts would be closed, unless you rebalance all time and isk i spent maximised a minmatar character which main bonus reley on speed to survive,
Boycott this Dam idea
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:01:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Serilla
Where's the module that counters missiles now (lol defenders)
EW can be pretty effective against missiles, smartbombs can destroy missiles. Missiles are hardly the most sought after PvP weapon of choice, even after you remove the speed element of nano the time it takes for missiles to reach their target still makes them inferior to turrets.
They should never have been rendered useless against nano ships and the nano community could probably have avoided major nerfs to nanos if they were pro-active to address the major problem instead of denying there was any problem.
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:01:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
FIT AN AFTERBURNER!
Seriously, red bold text really doesn't help your point get across, it just makes you look childish.
have you ever tryd to AB a megathron ??? have you ???
smaller blaster ships like deimos.... MYBE can do something whit a AB.. but a AB on hype/mega is soo useless its the same as whitout it ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Oregon sinful
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:01:00 -
[471]
My thoughts,
Lets look at what CCP is really doing: Here's a list of next to worthless ships for pvp atm based on design and nerfs.
AF's - always have been always will be. Gallente recons/celestis - Until they fix the damp nerf Pilgrim - nos nerf Eos - it just got ****ed nuff said. Astarte - only good for bonuses Myrmidon - 5 MEDIUM drones? how do I kill even another bc with that pitiful dps? Drake - Tank nerf, and it's caldari. All teir 1 BC - they're just bad. Black ops - face it, nobody flys them Destroyers - paper thin and slow Sentinel - nos nerf killed this before it was a twinkle in daddy ccp's eyes Keres - mini arazu/lach but paper thin and hit by damp nerf before it was ever designed. Crusader - only two midslots :/ Raptor - really bad dps/surviability Claw - same as crusader, Aris used to fit in this category, now just has really bad dps heritic - like t1 destroyers paper thin and slow flycatcher - same as a heritic Eris - worst interdictor available leaving the sabre as the only viable alternitive. Oneiros - Train for a guradian. Sacrilege - another, used to be good ship Eagle - sniping does ok, but paper thin, non-nanoable Deimos - good dps but you have to be ridiculously close, weak tank Munion - like deimos, popps easily. Covert ops/industry based - not meant for pvp
So this leaves as viable options for sucessful pvp:
Battleships Marauders (hella expensive tho) Hurricane and Prophecy to an extent Capitals Ammar commands (insane tanks low dps) Caldari Commands (mostly for gang bonus) Minmatar Commands (speed bonus wee!) Kitsune jammer bonus is good Zealot (nano) Cerb (nano) Ishtar (nano) Vaga (nano) Heavy interdictors malediction crow taranis/ares stiletto Sabre Guardian (gang work only) Basilisk (gang work only) Scimitar (gang work only) Falcon/rook (jammers yay :))
With this nerf they limit the sensable ship selection for solo/small gang down to:
Battleships 2 BC A few commands Jammers (kitsune/falcon/rook) The Curse. Logistics Interceptors to temporary tackle and gtfo.
So start selling your Domi webs, Polycarbs, Faction Mwd's and speed mods while you can still get reasonable isk for them.
Load up on jammers and jamming ships, Curses and popular BS because that's all people are going to fly after this patch.
In an effort to shut the nano crybabys up CCP is making this game a heavy weight, stand in a ring and Beat the other guy till he breaks sensless, no skill beyond characture SP slug fest.
It's going to be BS and Jammers online. A group of hacs won't be able to go toe to toe with a bs gang and survive anymore because at = or less DPS the greater BS tanks will win.
Flame away, tell me why your ship up there is actually 1337 and your the pwnzor and how I fail. Fact is ccp has done nothing but take away, take away and take away besides add rediculous and overly expensive options.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
What the **** kind of an argument is this?
Erm, a valid one? Care to actually counter it? ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[473]
I'll be blunt, I think you're off-base with this one.
Why does nano exist? Simply put, its the best option to combat blobs out there today - instead of having to fight them directly, which pits our numbers versus theirs, it circumvents that, allowing an outnumbered force to attempt to wear down their targets and eventually go in for the kill.
Nerfing it is going to strengthen the blob. And if I know you with even one ounce of my soul, that is the last thing you want in this game - how's it going to do that, you ask? Because nano an effective counter to numbers, instead of bringing more numbers you just have to bring more speed - it allows small corporations to the opportunity to run with the big dogs in 0.0, if they're good enough.
While I like the stealth AF boost and web nerf here, even the exponentially decreasing speed a shipclass has, there's a problem with your methodology - part of balancing something means looking beyond the first order effects, as much as possible.
That same lack of foresight has been prevalent in the past - just look at sovereignty mechanics. They were designed to give small alliances the chance to claim a rock in the stormy sea of 0.0, and be very difficult to dislodge - a sort of "castle in space" - those were the devs intentions, now, look at the map. How many independent groups of small, 0.0 spaceholding entities do we see out there? Ones that actually stand on their own legs, without being a pet or large alliance "affiliate"? Not a lot, by my count - what CCP intended and what actually happened were two different things.
I'm calling it now, this is going to be a similar situation if it goes through. I'm not defending the 12+km/s Vagas out there, or the 20+km/s inties, or anything like that - they are the exception to the rule, the outlier, beyond the third standard deviation if you will. Not only that, there are a lot of decent counters for nanos out there today, from Rapier & Huginns to Curses, to the insane concept of an interceptor squadron with webs (holy crap) - the situation that's trying to be balanced here is simply unfair to the nano pilot, its the blobbers sitting there with their Drakes and their Dominixes and their Maelstroms saying "sit still and die!", instead of actually doing something about it in a reasonable way.
As far as "speed being the only counter to speed", that's not entirely correct. RR a plated Huginn in the middle of that blob, that has overheated (and preferably skirmish linked) webbers, and nanoships won't be able to come close - ditto Curses, it goes on. The bottom line that I'm trying to get across to you, the devs assigned to this, is that while I realize you're not destroying nano, you're hurting it to the point where it simply won't be effective anymore.
But, back to the main thrust of the argument.
Ask yourself, "will EVE be better off this way?" - instead of just looking at how it will change a fight, how will that fight change EVE? In CAOD, a Burn Eden member shared a quote that he had captured during his camping times...
"You don't blob, you just lack numbers."
This is the very essence of the game, right now. In the past year or two, the population of the game has exploded, and unlike other MMOs, EVE's gameplay responds to those numbers - it has to, as its a single server concept. Others would just shard, or add new servers to play on, but here, a population increase means that everyone feels it, the traders, the miners, the fighters.
With the increase in population comes the death of playstyles. Practically no one solos these days, simply because the risk v. reward is massively favoring risk, and right behind it is small gang warfare - in your push for more subscribers, you have unintentionally altered the content of your game.
I suppose I'm being a bitter old vet here, but frankly, I am. This is going to backfire in the faces of CCP if it goes through, no doubts about it.
*sighs*
Click me! You know you want to... |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx How about you stick to crying instead of speculating.
how about using your brain? how will you get out of bubble with mwd which you cant use or get back to the gate with AB?
hooray gatecamps online here I come!
Originally by: CCP Nozh We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers
omg what are you smoking? ^^
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[475]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Do WCS counter the Warp Scramblers ability to disable MWD's?
- No, not in our current implementation. We've thought about it, but as is, they don't.
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Will my MWD be affected by Bubbles?
- No, it won't.
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Avoiding the tough question, as always... These changes seriously destroy close range combat (ie: blasters).
And one single module that can do two different things (kill warp and MWD) is WAY overpowered.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[476]
I think this is an interesting approach that deserves a bit of testing from the speed demons. Slow down everything...but make the results of a "solid" tackle less inevitable.
Quite frankly, I think the main change that will take place is that nanopilots will simply have to become as skilled at flying their ships as they claim to be currently.
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 -
[477]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Do WCS counter the Warp Scramblers ability to disable MWD's?
- No, not in our current implementation. We've thought about it, but as is, they don't.
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Will my MWD be affected by Bubbles?
- No, it won't.
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
What about the boost to missiles? If you're removing a counter for them (speed) what's there to replace it? __________________
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whisk
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:03:00 -
[478]
will range of warp scramblers be increased?
because otherwise youll never get any one with mwd that close ..
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:03:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Nuff said in my view.
Right, and why did people start nanoing? To adapt to the blobs, capital ships dropped on BS + slow gangs etc.
These changes are way too radical. Polys needed a nerf, fine. All this extra stuff? Unneccessary. Don't over-fix something that is not fundamentally broken.
Those nano pilots will adapt, and the part-time pvpers will find a new tactic to whine about (ECM, Damps, WCS etc) and the circular nerfing will continue until everyone is in ravens shooting at each other from range. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Agmar
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:03:00 -
[480]
Thread needs a bumper sticker like the carrier one.
However, I enjoy reading the discussions here. As a mega pilot, I don't see this as the death of blaster ships, but instead a reason to get back in them.
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whisk
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:03:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Stiletto Minmatar Character for Sale
LVL 5 RECON HIGH NAV SKILLS
2 x POLY RIGGED RAPIERS 2 X POLY RIGGED VAGA
1 isk or best offer,
CCP this is the most lame idea ever, This will become BLOB Online, What fun is that, This kill all Solo and Small Gang warfare which is enjoyable way of combat, Why not boost missles instead of nerfing Minmatar,
I like roaming in small gangs now with this being implement that gone out of the window,
If this goes ahead then my 5 accounts would be closed, unless you rebalance all time and isk i spent maximised a minmatar character which main bonus reley on speed to survive,
Boycott this Dam idea
ill take it
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:03:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth You're not thinking outside the box. A warp scrambler will have zero effect on an afterburner. Propose that ABs get a small increase if you feel they're too slow.
This is a joke. I can tell from some of the absurdity and from having seen a lot of jokes in my time.
I see what you did there.
@ CCP
Do not destroy ships that are meant for this kind of speed warfare with this. Else, they lose their point. Similar to what the Pilgrim has turned into. Lets not have another Pilgrim please. -
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:04:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Stiletto Minmatar Character for Sal
If this goes ahead then my 5 accounts would be closed, unless you rebalance all time and isk i spent maximised a minmatar character which main bonus reley on speed to survive,
Boycott this Dam idea
rofl, again...im gonna start counting the quit threads. The only way you can play eve is with vagas and stuff?? jesus...sad..
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Abriana Overlord
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:04:00 -
[484]
I have seen a few good points raised by peeps in this thread
I like the idea of scripts for webbers (range or % velocity decrease)
I do agree that changes need to be made to warp disruptors also to easy to stay out of scram range tbh spanking mwd and effectively holding target there, me thinks of vaga
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Solid Trust
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:04:00 -
[485]
As person that enjoys flying in small gangs i don't care if you nerfed speed in half. The only thing that matters to me is that small gangs can continue to exist in nullsec. If you make so it is harder to roam in small gangs then I consider those changes to be an utter failure. However, if you can nerf speed and increase the ability for small gangs to exist then I am all for it.
The Solo player has died long ago. Are we now trying to kill the small gang?
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:04:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Riho have you ever tryd to AB a megathron ??? have you ???
smaller blaster ships like deimos.... MYBE can do something whit a AB.. but a AB on hype/mega is soo useless its the same as whitout it
True, but how about instead of complaining that they're fixing a game-wide problem, focus on the specific issues those fixes cause and how to address them. Of course blaster boats should remain viable. How about doing something constructive and suggesting how, because if you can't be bothered to do that, leave it to CCP because they clearly at least are prepared to think about EVE and its issues. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Dissociactive
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 -
[487]
Edited by: Dissociactive on 25/07/2008 15:05:17 CCP suxx leave my vaga alone! i'm sellin' my char and tryin' to leave those stupid game
pew pew |
Essque
Starlancers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 -
[488]
CCP, you are practically ruining the only part that was fun in PvP - guerilla warfare, if only some of the changes make it on TQ. Why every patch encourage people to blob even more? Your cluster doesn't support many ships on the same grid, and you know it better than anyone. Or at least you should. Then why?!
I understand that some speeds are over the top, but you simply go much too far. There is absolutely no reason left to fly a Minmatar or Gallente HAC if you can't speed tank, because they can't tank otherwise. Simple as. A Vagabond should still be able to fly 4 Km/s after your nerf (with tech II mods only, no implants) otherwise you practically killed it.
I never post in such threads, but this goes way over the top. You are killing the game for thousands of people, which are your long term customers and give in to forum whines. Poor show.
I'm not giving up hope yet, but the changes proposed in the dev blog are the worst changes in game in the last 3 years by far. You don't have my support. Any nerf to speed with more than 20% will take away 95% of the fun thousands of us have in PVP. Not to mention the ISK many have spend for expensive speed boosting mods or implants.
At least give us some real alternatives, and boost the afterburners. Or just make the MWDs eat more cap and leave the rest unchanged. It's easy to balance what you call ludicrous speeds. You're taking the wrong approach. A boost to ABs and a nerf to the MWDs cap consumption (with Interceptors getting a build-in bonus) will fix all problems you think you have.
Very, very bad move.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 -
[489]
"If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely."
"Polycarbon engine housings are overpowered, both in general and with regard to corresponding modules; this is because the tech1 version is currently more effective than a tech2 nanofiber. Following our changes weÆre looking at them being 30% less effective than their module counterparts, which is more similar to the difference between modules and rigs in other categories."
quotes taken from latest dev blog.
the bolded text is 2 examples of things the nano cowards have been saying the exact opposite of for a long time. some of them actually convinced themselves that 'nano is fine'.
so CCP finally sees sense. all those lovely nano tears will taste sweet.
i have read some of the whines already, that CCP is giving in to 'people who can't adapt' , amazing that they will turn their own logic on its head to suit their arguments , its your turn to adapt now.
i foresee this making a vast wave of ships that were simply not viable in the nano age have a place. deimos? an ishtar with a tank!, pretty much any ship you could not nano will have a reason to be flown.
this is the greatest change eve has witnessed in a long time, finally some balance, finally i think CCP is actually playing the game and seeing what is happening.
thank you CCP
PS : i will buy your ***abonds at base mineral price in rens, just put the contract.
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Lil'Bunneh FoFo
Uranus Assault Team
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 -
[490]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
Dear CCP, How about no. <3 FoFo
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Arthmandar Valikari
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 -
[491]
As a mission-running carebear who uses the Ishtar as ship of choice, I have a concern with the web nerf -- there are several missions (World's Collide, Shipyard Theft vs. Angels, etc.) where the following situation holds:
1) the jump in point is camped by multiple web/scram tackler frigs and significant DPS 2) loosing drones gets you lots of bonus aggro and a quick, violent death
The only way I have found to handle these is to fit guns and a web, and kill these tacklers without drones before I die, so I can run away and manage drone aggro.
I am concerned that the web nerf will make it very hard for larger ships (non-marauders) to deal with these fast, hard-hitting, lockdown style tacklers in PvE.
If drones weren't able to draw aggro without firing on a target, this would solve my concern, and would be my recommendation of choice, but I'm open to alternatives. Frankly, it would make a lot of PvE better, if drones were ignored by NPCs until they did something violent. |
Stiletto
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:06:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Stiletto Minmatar Character for Sal
If this goes ahead then my 5 accounts would be closed, unless you rebalance all time and isk i spent maximised a minmatar character which main bonus reley on speed to survive,
Boycott this Dam idea
rofl, again...im gonna start counting the quit threads. The only way you can play eve is with vagas and stuff?? jesus...sad..
No you f****** idiot, i Spec in what my character is good for, So you nerf what i'm Spec in and i'm as usefull as a two day on Newb, I rather be spec than a **** like yourself
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:06:00 -
[493]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Nozh, read my post.
Small roaming gangs may have existed before polys, but the situation in 0.0 has changed dramatically since then.
Click me! You know you want to... |
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:07:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
What the **** kind of an argument is this?
Erm, a valid one? Care to actually counter it?
Why is somebody like you who obviously does not pvp so passionate about this nerf wny do you care as it obviously does not effect whatever it is you do in eve?.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:07:00 -
[495]
Originally by: THRASHER23 "For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock."
Next time you want feed back on a controversial nerf that you obviously are bias to try not to come off so condescending.
Pot meets keetle. Dont't like being condescended upon? You just learned something new, didn'tcha.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:07:00 -
[496]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
Is this supposed to be a reassurance regarding blasterboats? All it states is:
Blasterboats can be stopped dead in the water. Other ships using MWDs can be too, but ships with ABs will happily stay out of range and kill you. That's just part of the change. Perhaps the drones on your blasterboat will be useful.
So basically the situation for MWD boats is that there are going to be a group of targets which you can neither catch nor hold in place to kill, so they dictate range and can disengage at will. That sounds familiar... -
DesuSigs |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:08:00 -
[497]
Nice proposal.
It'll be interesting to see the effects ingame.
Estel Arador corp services (high-sec POS/JCs) just 120M isk! |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:08:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Solid Trust As person that enjoys flying in small gangs i don't care if you nerfed speed in half. The only thing that matters to me is that small gangs can continue to exist in nullsec. If you make so it is harder to roam in small gangs then I consider those changes to be an utter failure. However, if you can nerf speed and increase the ability for small gangs to exist then I am all for it.
The Solo player has died long ago. Are we now trying to kill the small gang?
This, a thousand times over.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:08:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 15:09:03 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 15:08:31
Originally by: lebrata Why is somebody like you who obviously does not pvp so passionate about this nerf wny do you care as it obviously does not effect whatever it is you do in eve?.
Hahahahahah. Oh that made my day. Learn to read. What part of being in the faction militia of the Amarr are you have trouble with? I PvP regularly, including against nano-ships. I do have some vague clue, thank you. Post with your main. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 -
[500]
for those claiming 'SOLO PVP IS DEAD, MAN!!!'
erm...how? ony for you idiots that only know how to fly minnie recons and hac's....how about say, solo roaming in a BS...I dont see a problem with BS combat, tbqfh, or me, i like to roam in a BC any kind, as i can fly them all, as much as an Arazu...more so now So, learn and TRY NEW METHODS...hell, a tanked vaga works - proof is on the MOD KB's...it tanks gateguns ffs....grow some balls and get some tactics
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 -
[501]
I love you ccp, this is a great change!
The best part? I'll still be able to hit 8000 m/s which is more than I need with a MWD, why are people super whining about this change? you can still go fast as hell.
Also I love you for
-X-Instinct boosters cause a reduction in signature radius, rather than an increased base velocity.-omg YES FINALLY! -Marauders will probably get their web bonus boosted -BADASS -interceptors aren't getting any slower woohoo!
only bad thing I have to say is feel pity on the blaster boats. maybe replace the tracking bonus the mega has in this new slower world with a 100% boost to afterburner speed? that's what I would do!
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
What the **** kind of an argument is this?
Edit: Small roaming gangs were effective before snakes and polys because ships had half as much HP, didn't fit 3 plates, and RR wasn't really an effective strategy because logistics ships didn't exist.
Don't forget dungar, large bs gangs have _always_ had capitals for remote rep support and alliances have brought 100 people to combat a 20 man roaming gang since the first day of eve
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 -
[503]
giving a module (scrambler) two abilities (stop from warping and using mwd) is way too unbalanced.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 -
[504]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
[*snippeth*]
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Yes, they did. Then came the massive blobbing in 0.0, and people changed their tactics. You used to be able to roam around in small gangs with conventional setups (tanking), but these days, you can't. Hit one target, and voila, you're camped in for 5 hours with a blob hanging around. Speed gets you out of these situations.
And saying that you're only reducing the maximum speed is fine, but you're still giving any ship carrying a 7.5km scrambler the opportunity of ruining that speed, and there's no counter to that (except staying out of range). And ceptors will be made quicker; let's see how this pans out on Sisi, but seems to me that you'll have quite a few ceptors who's only role will be to be quick, and to disable people's mwds. And then there's the Arazu, which will have a quite large "Zoot zoot, there goes your MWD" -zone. Add up this, and you don't really NEED 90% web anymore, so saying "Well, look, we made webifiers less effective" doesn't really help.
Reduce speed across the board, fine. Giving people a "ops, you have no MWD"-button, not fine. There are allready other mechanisms in place that will achieve that without the added benefit of a scrambler aswell.
If you think this will be of any positive change for the small gangs, you really haven't done much 0.0 small gang roaming in the last year. If you want 0.0 fleet battles that are laggy at best, and unplayable at worst, then fine, that's ok, but at least have the decency of saying so.
Rant off.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:10:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Arthmandar Valikari As a mission-running carebear who uses the Ishtar as ship of choice, I have a concern with the web nerf -- there are several missions (World's Collide, Shipyard Theft vs. Angels, etc.) where the following situation holds:
1) the jump in point is camped by multiple web/scram tackler frigs and significant DPS 2) loosing drones gets you lots of bonus aggro and a quick, violent death
The only way I have found to handle these is to fit guns an
get on sis and run the missiuon again this monday, if you can't kill them with the web nerf then complain and ccp will listen.
HOwever I don't think PvE is going to change much.d a web, and kill these tacklers without drones before I die, so I can run away and manage drone aggro.
I am concerned that the web nerf will make it very hard for larger ships (non-marauders) to deal with these fast, hard-hitting, lockdown style tacklers in PvE.
If drones weren't able to draw aggro without firing on a target, this would solve my concern, and would be my recommendation of choice, but I'm open to alternatives. Frankly, it would make a lot of PvE better, if drones were ignored by NPCs until they did something violent.
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Bfoster
Minmatar Rising Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:11:00 -
[506]
"Webifiers Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%"
That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read from a DEV team, EVER!!! Ok, I didn't bring the right tools to a fight, I still deserve a chance to win... WTF? Ok my ship doesn't have enough fire power and isn't strong enough, but I deserve a chance to win? I don't do much PVP, but web is the one thing that helps me control the speed ships a little, if you nerf that.. All I can say is im glad I didnt do the 3 month subscription...
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:11:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
You are stupid. Guerilla warfare is about hitting where the enemy isn't in strength. It's NOT a frontal charge against overwhelming numbers.
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Nanos v RR BS blob are pretty useless without massive ECM support.
STRATEGIC mobility, not tactical one.
A guerilleros, oh ignorant one, strike unprotected targets and run away before the army come. He doesn't engage the army in a frontal assault and expect to win by magically being able to run faster than bullets. ------------------------------------------
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:11:00 -
[508]
great job great!!!!!
1. im not nano pilot look mine loses on goods kb
2. ****ing macroer on belt or any other person IS HARD 2 CACH EVEN WITH POLYCARBON NANOFIBER SHIP and now with tanked inty r hac or dictor it will be more ****ED + if he put point on you you are dead in maximum 3 salva SO MACROES PLEASE BUY ALL TOBIAS WARP DISTRUPTOR AND YOU ARE SAFE IF SOMETHING CACH YOU BEFORE YOU LOG OF ON BELT(DIDNT KNOW THET MACROES HAWE SO STRONG LOBY IN CCP)
3. ROAMING I CAN IMAGINE ROMAING GANG OF RR BS OR TANKED HACS COMAND-you come in hostile region large bubble tec 2 on g8 and TITAN CLOAKED IN GRID JUST NEAD 2 PRES DD AND YOUR ALL GANG ****ED + if you even reaproch thet titan with some magic or ms or anything till your frends come you are toasted from he or hes snipers
4. SOLO ROAMING-im roaming 90% of time solo or 95%-if i cach anything after 8 hours roaming it will be intresting!!!and if NOT-AFTER I JUMP IN 4 IDIOTS G8 CAMP WITH 1 INTI AND 3 BS IM DEAD THET IS PERFECT
OH I LOVE YOU EVE YOU MAKE GAME BETHER!!
NOW ALL LETC BUY LARGE BUBBLES TANKED HACS AND SNIPERS AND LETC CAMP SOME G8S THET IS SO FUN!!!!SUPERCAPS ARE COOL TO HAWE ALSO
AND NO!!!!IM NOT SARCASTIC!!!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:11:00 -
[509]
Originally by: CCP Nozh ...this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis:
Sorry to say, but maybe think a bit more before you propose these changes? Especially since more than 90% of your whole playerbase is affected...
That is really not well thought out and the quick and evading answers "we will monitor sisi once the changes are implemented there" show clearly that you have no idea and forecast how and what all is affected then. How can you think about a fundamental game change in such a way?
And the comment "pvp existed long before snakes and polycarbons" is just ignorant. I thought you would want to IMPROVE Eve. Maybe you just should throw away all the changes of the last 4 years? PvP existed back then also...
5 hours, lol
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Daelin Blackleaf
The Reclaimed
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:12:00 -
[510]
A note on the complaints about blobbing:
With CCP looking to shift 0.0 warfare towards an FWlike multiple objective affair the huge blobs we see today will be a much rarer sight (though of course they will be found wherever a single significant target presents itself such as a bunker or baby titan).
On the whole these look like some very good changes, speed set-ups retain their strategic advantage while it becomes harder for them to kill targets while going untouched themselves. Close range ships will not be at such a huge disadvantage vs ships of a larger class, and frigates especially will be able to fit for sub-10km combat without it being near complete suicide.
I do worry about the effect this will have on the Hyena, Rapier, and Huggin though and I can't actually fly any of them.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:12:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Yes it's a joke. However, since nano's were a bad joke, I think it's time to find some new material.
Ok. But I reserve the right to whine, since I am blaster specced.
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth True, but how about instead of complaining that they're fixing a game-wide problem, focus on the specific issues those fixes cause and how to address them. Of course blaster boats should remain viable. How about doing something constructive and suggesting how, because if you can't be bothered to do that, leave it to CCP because they clearly at least are prepared to think about EVE and its issues.
Allow MWD boats (those with bonuses which allay the cap reduction for instance) to be exempt from the scrambler effect. Since these ships only use their speed to get close, their speed is brief and purposeful, as opposed to being a new means of tanking. -
DesuSigs |
AntarisIX
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:13:00 -
[512]
this is rediculous, ur not only breaking the game but ruining people investments in snake's, poly's, faction mwd's...
btw can we hav refunds on the subscribion fee's?!
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:13:00 -
[513]
you already have web to slow down mwding targets, why another one unbalanced that can stop you from warp too -.- how about missiles with build in AoE cap neuting or Target Painter with build in Doomsday Device
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Kalius Prime
Mining Bytes Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:13:00 -
[514]
Originally by: KayO
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
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Che Biko
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:13:00 -
[515]
It sounds good to me. I missed the Minmatar in there though, thought they have to be considered when you do this, they are the 'speed-faction', after all. -ChT
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Dzajic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:14:00 -
[516]
Rebalancing ship base speeds. Good idea CCP. Increasing stacking penalties for ODs and polycarbons, THE needed thing. Good. Nerfing Snakes... 56% was too much, but the nerf might be to hard. Capping all MWDs to 500%. OKish. MWD reactivation time. Also THE thing. Excellent.
Not actually boosting ABs... bad call. Web changes, MWD scramb interaction... Horrible, horrible horrible :(
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Aarin Wrath
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:15:00 -
[517]
On paper these changes sound great! Have to see on SISI if this is the case.
Oh and to all the "TEH WRLD IS TEH ENDING I QUIT" trolls... please calm down. Everyone said FW would be a failure, and they were wrong. So maybe try to reserve judgement.
IHMO: It wont affect Blasterboats since inertia will carry them the last 2-5km. (its only the short range scrammers that turn off MWD)
This is not pro-blob. This is pro-get out of a battle free card, and pro-no more invulnerable nano ships. (yes there are counters to nanos, I know. BUt they are all other nanos ... just like the dev said)
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ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:15:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lorna Loot
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Guerilla warfare isn't about small gang facing down big blob. Read up on what it is.
Lol are you stupid? That is exactly what guerilla warfare is.
You are stupid. Guerilla warfare is about hitting where the enemy isn't in strength. It's NOT a frontal charge against overwhelming numbers.
Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat with which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics (ambushes, raids, etc.) to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) and mobility (advantage and surprise) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory.
Nanos v RR BS blob are pretty useless without massive ECM support.
STRATEGIC mobility, not tactical one.
A guerilleros, oh ignorant one, strike unprotected targets and run away before the army come. He doesn't engage the army in a frontal assault and expect to win by magically being able to run faster than bullets.
Technically, neither does nanos. What nanos do is use the guerilla tactic of constantly moving to protected areas (out of range), waiting for the other side to mess up. A nano fleet can't touch a RR fleet, but if the RR fleets "cavalry" - the tacklers make the mistake of trying to engage the nano gang, they will find themselves outmaneuvered and destroyed - before the army comes.
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Pharos Dei
Amarr Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:15:00 -
[519]
Well being both a nano user and a heavy slowmobile one, i have mixed feelings about the nano nerf....
for one i appreciate it not seeing hacs going 5km/s, lets face it it was OP...
on the other hand we will be seeing even more blobs of 50vs1 + ECM ***gotry + Cyno drops (we all know 10vs1 is unfair, the 10 should definitely have capital support too...), which indeed saddens me.
Though nano needed nerfing, and im a nano user whos been advocating it for a long time, so does blobfare, ecm and capital ships...
And frankly im terrified on what is going to happen to pvp in eve now, weve already seen a steep increase in blobbing, falconing, ecm-droning and not to mention 2 carrier drops vs a single battlecruiser.
Nerf nano, but fix those issues simultaneously too please, otherwise eves combat will descent into mass over brains even more
<center> ... </center> |
Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:22:00 -
[520]
Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:22:35 I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
If they do, that means; less blobs, less lag, less forum who*ing.
You guys can send your stuff to this character, thanks for playing!
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:22:00 -
[521]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!
All hail a new time of variety!
This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:
2008.07.21 21:02:00
Victim: Haniblecter Teg Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle System: Sivala Security: 0.6 Damage Taken: 554
Involved parties:
Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow) Security: 0.4 Corp: The Illuminati. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: NONE Ship: Nemesis Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Damage Done: 554
Dropped items:
Gallente Carrier (Cargo)
---
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dichroic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:23:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf A note on the complaints about blobbing:
With CCP looking to shift 0.0 warfare towards an FWlike multiple objective affair
didnt i see a fw km with like a 100 man t1 cruier gang or somthing? thats still pretty blob to me |
walterwheasle
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:23:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:22:35 I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
If they do, that means; less blobs, less lag, less forum who*ing.
You guys can send your stuff to this character, thanks for playing!
Lol u tool it would mean every one blobs
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:24:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Originally by: CCP Nozh
[*snippeth*]
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Yes, they did. Then came the massive blobbing in 0.0, and people changed their tactics. You used to be able to roam around in small gangs with conventional setups (tanking), but these days, you can't. Hit one target, and voila, you're camped in for 5 hours with a blob hanging around. Speed gets you out of these situations.
And saying that you're only reducing the maximum speed is fine, but you're still giving any ship carrying a 7.5km scrambler the opportunity of ruining that speed, and there's no counter to that (except staying out of range). And ceptors will be made quicker; let's see how this pans out on Sisi, but seems to me that you'll have quite a few ceptors who's only role will be to be quick, and to disable people's mwds. And then there's the Arazu, which will have a quite large "Zoot zoot, there goes your MWD" -zone. Add up this, and you don't really NEED 90% web anymore, so saying "Well, look, we made webifiers less effective" doesn't really help.
Reduce speed across the board, fine. Giving people a "ops, you have no MWD"-button, not fine. There are allready other mechanisms in place that will achieve that without the added benefit of a scrambler aswell.
If you think this will be of any positive change for the small gangs, you really haven't done much 0.0 small gang roaming in the last year. If you want 0.0 fleet battles that are laggy at best, and unplayable at worst, then fine, that's ok, but at least have the decency of saying so.
Rant off.
I will have your babies.
Btw, CCP, selling my services as a small gang warfare consultant. You guys obviously haven't spent time in the trenches lately .
Click me! You know you want to... |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:24:00 -
[525]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: lebrata Why is somebody like you who obviously does not pvp so passionate about this nerf wny do you care as it obviously does not effect whatever it is you do in eve?.
Hahahahahah. Oh that made my day. Learn to read. What part of being in the faction militia of the Amarr are you have trouble with? I PvP regularly, including against nano-ships. I do have some vague clue, thank you. Post with your main.
My main is banned at the moment and if i offended you i apologise as i do not know how the factional thing 2works, do you not get killmails or have you never been in or fought ppl with a KB cos with 14 kills and 8 losses in your entire eve career it seems that you should hardly care about pvp?.
Like i said i mean no offence i just find it interesting that a lot of the pro nano nerf ppl are hardly what i would consider active pvpers?.
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:24:00 -
[526]
Being a nano-ho myself... I'd just like to say... BRING ON THESE CHANGES. Might actually introduce a bit of variety to PvP (or it might not /shrug).
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:24:00 -
[527]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:22:35 I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
If they do, that means; less blobs, less lag, less forum who*ing.
You guys can send your stuff to this character, thanks for playing!
Quoting the clueless / ironic.
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:25:00 -
[528]
Originally by: walterwheasle
Lol u tool it would mean every one blobs
Why do you care? Just send your stuff to me, as you cant seem to ADAPT and continue playing :P
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:25:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Skrypt Solid work. Sounds like it needs a little more refining, but is on the right path.
I particularly like the notion that Afterburners will become a viable alternative to MWDs.
P.S. - Hey SuperTwinkey! Guess this means you won't be bringing nanogangs to cap fights anymore.
Such very sweet tears....
I find it funny how i have to agree with someone from requiem, which usually does not happen.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:25:00 -
[530]
Originally by: agent apple
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets.
Yes and back in the day
Alliances actually shot at each other instead of super napped and called in each other whenever a 50man gang comes with 20jumps.
300 Man gangs were not common
Jump bridges and portals didn't give defenders the ease of boxing you in.
Capital ships weren't protected by 'small gang objective' cyno jammers meaning they could sit on gates.
Seriosuly was 2005 the last time you played on TQ?
WFT and signed --------- I want to phew phew
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:26:00 -
[531]
So basically with this we get following:
Nano Nerf
Small Gang Nerf
Blob Buff
Arazu/Lachesis buff
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
EVE Online: Dumbing shit down to f1-f8 since '07.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:26:00 -
[532]
As a mission runner who has never going into 0.0 or used a micro warp drive, ---
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:26:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Lorna Loot Where have I stated its wise to go full frontal with a nano gang? In fact if you can read I also stated that a nano gang isn't that effective in today's RR BS blobs. The idea is to attack when you have the advantage then run away. Whether to attack or not is up to you, if you feel your gang has the advantage try it.
Now, reading what I have typed where can you see me saying go face a fleet of BS with nanos? Well?
You're reasoning in terms of hitting the blob and running away. That's a frontal assault. That's not what a guerrilla force is supposed to do. What it's supposed to do is going around the blob and hitting isolated targets. There's not going to be a blob in every constellation. ------------------------------------------
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rgreat
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 -
[534]
Edited by: rgreat on 25/07/2008 15:28:00 Fun point i thought of:
Carebears and loosers will stil die 'en masse', even if total nano nerf is applied.
I think these changes will mostly affect alliance warfare. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 -
[535]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Are you purposely trying ignoring what your own game is today? That is such a bias half-truth. Sure, they existed before capitals and capital blobs and bubbles with capital blobs and titans and shit...
----
On a separate point, a game in which things take considerable time to achieve, moving goalposts so drastically as proposed is unacceptable. |
Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:22:35 I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
If they do, that means; less blobs, less lag, less forum who*ing.
You guys can send your stuff to this character, thanks for playing!
You are an idiot. Nano's are the counter to the blob not the blob itself. When you get lagged to hell by a blob of RR BS, desynced, log back in a clone bay and quit you can send your stuff to this character.
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walterwheasle
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: walterwheasle
Lol u tool it would mean every one blobs
Why do you care? Just send your stuff to me, as you cant seem to ADAPT and continue playing :P
Why would u need them seems all you char does is post in forums :D
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 -
[538]
- MWD balance between ship types is welcome. Makes it more logical.
- Warp scramble disable MWD Warp Disruptor mostly used in PVP 20-24km range. Warp scramble will only be used by fast ships. You're basically creating 1 ship type specific feature that will be put on interceptors, to give it an effect of 2 large energy neutralizers on a BS or of a Curse/Pilgrim to kill nano ships main advantage. I'm not yet sure if it's a cool feature or not, i guess testing will show, maybe it's a cool feature. But then you render webs useless, something used by all ship types.
- Nano is part of the game and Nano you'll never catch me is a problem This why we see proposed changed. As long as this change doesn't hurt an average 2500-3000 speeds average Joe gets with simple tech II models.
- Do not kill the webs Average nano ship can almost always run back to the gate even if it's double webbed by a rapier or huginn, because there is locking time and a lot of inertia. If you have to nerf webs, reduce the time it takes for webs to slow down a nano ship. Else you'll make another invulnerable group of nano ships that can't be caught at a gate. Warp scramble won't help, since mwd is activated, ship is chasing to the gate and webs are too weak.
Quote: Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.
I think the above statement can only be related to empire noobs and is probably a result of empire whining noobs. Who in CCP would think such thing???
Webs are part of PVP. What about statements such as -"Currently if you're energy neutralized it's game over because you can't mwd out or rep yourself?" -"Currently when you're warp disrupted by a bigger and faster nano ship it's game over for you, so we reduce speeds of ships with warp disruptors by 50%" -"Currently when you're targeted by a lot of sniper battleships, you're likely to instapop and it's game over for you - so we reduce your signature by 40% for each BS targeting you and increase your velocity by 500%?" -"Currently if you're a new player and you undock, and go to 0.0 it's game over for you - so we fit a DDD on your rookie ships"
Do not screw it for everyone else. I do not get webbed very often. Web effectiveness will mostly benefit those getting caught in low sec by pirates chasing back to the gate and don't want to engage. For PVP folks, you can ECM jam the opponent, Energy neutralize, and web him yourself and if you trying to escape, just MWD out of web range. If you're attacked by more than one person, you're more likely be dead anyway. There is a lot of things that can make it "Game over" for you in EVE, this is eve, adapt and learn to engage ships you feel confident about winning or 50/50% for for fun.
CCP, need to think about all kinds of engagements, small scale, solo and large scale and the effects this will have on pvp. Catching nano ships has never been easy, even with rapier and huginns, nano are still faster, if they see one of a minmatar recon, they will run, and they have time before being locked and their inertia speed. IN large engagements this is the reason minmatar recons are primary.
The problem here, by nerfing all tech II speed related modules (overdrives, nanofibers) you are making an average nano ships slower too, and people who have used implants will still be faster than everyone else. 90% of people playing eve probably use regular tech II fit, no faction no implants.
I do welcome the some of the changes though, and the more i keep thinking about interceptors disabling nano ships mwd the more i kind of like it, but don't quote me on this yet.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:28:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!
All hail a new time of variety!
This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:
2008.07.21 21:02:00
Victim: Haniblecter Teg Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle System: Sivala Security: 0.6 Damage Taken: 554
Involved parties:
Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow) Security: 0.4 Corp: The Illuminati. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: NONE Ship: Nemesis Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Damage Done: 554
Dropped items:
Gallente Carrier (Cargo)
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:28:00 -
[540]
Originally by: agent apple
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets.
Yes and back in the day
Alliances actually shot at each other instead of super napped and called in each other whenever a 50man gang comes with 20jumps.
300 Man gangs were not common
Jump bridges and portals didn't give defenders the ease of boxing you in.
Capital ships weren't protected by 'small gang objective' cyno jammers meaning they could sit on gates.
Seriosuly was 2005 the last time you played on TQ?
*gives you a thumbsup*
This man has done his homework.
Btw, CCP, you've never had the joy of running a 10 man nanogang into a group of 15 BSes and 15 more support that then proceed to hotdrop you, have you?
Click me! You know you want to... |
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:29:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Lorna Loot
You are an idiot. Nano's are the counter to the blob not the blob itself. When you get lagged to hell by a blob of RR BS, desynced, log back in a clone bay and quit you can send your stuff to this character.
It seems CCP disagrees with you, you can send your tears in a bucket to iceland if you want.
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Xol'tan
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:29:00 -
[542]
I can only support this if missile speeds are lowerd and AB are changed to provide a 500% speed boost for 8 seconds but have a 1 minute cooldown.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:30:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!
All hail a new time of variety!
This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:
2008.07.21 21:02:00
Victim: Haniblecter Teg Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle System: Sivala Security: 0.6 Damage Taken: 554
Involved parties:
Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow) Security: 0.4 Corp: The Illuminati. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: NONE Ship: Nemesis Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Damage Done: 554
Dropped items:
Gallente Carrier (Cargo)
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.
Proofs that blobs are overpowered.
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Stiletto
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:30:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:22:35 I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
If they do, that means; less blobs, less lag, less forum who*ing.
You guys can send your stuff to this character, thanks for playing!
Wow another i don't know how to counter a fast ship, Nano Gangs are not invincable. if they get web or neuted there dead,
Just because people want to camp in BS and Capitals make eve a very boring game, I agree missle need a boost but nerfing speed is the wrong way to do it,
It will increase Lag and blobs do to the fact you need to bring more tank and gank ships the every before, also CCP servers struggle when there 200 people in system, with this nerf there gonna be bigger gangs which means more lag,
but for all the players who support this are just idoits who hasn't figured out how to counter a nanogang and for that i feel sorry for you, i can recommend WoW would be more suited to you
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:30:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver I really REALLY hope these nano***s quit the game after this patch. I REALLY hope they do.
Sorry to disappoint you, but unlike some players out there, I know how to change with the times.
In the meantime, its time to crusade.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:30:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!
All hail a new time of variety!
This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:
2008.07.21 21:02:00
Victim: Haniblecter Teg Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle System: Sivala Security: 0.6 Damage Taken: 554
Involved parties:
Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow) Security: 0.4 Corp: The Illuminati. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: NONE Ship: Nemesis Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Damage Done: 554
Dropped items:
Gallente Carrier (Cargo)
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.
I'd post the mail you sent me crying about it but it was so inappropriate I'd probably get banned for posting it. ---
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:31:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Euriti So basically with this we get following:
Nano Nerf
Small Gang Nerf
Blob Buff
Arazu/Lachesis buff
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
EVE Online: Dumbing shit down to f1-f8 since '07.
Where do you get the Arazu/Lach buff? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Borasatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:31:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Kery Syander Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 13:09:57 also, can you nerf bumping? I am tired of having my drake bumped off station after I aggress a nanogang.
Playing docking games is more lame than nano games, IMO.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:32:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.
i see fair ammount of nano victims there..
--------- I want to phew phew
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:32:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
I think the above statement can only be related to empire noobs and is probably a result of empire whining noobs. Who in CCP would think such thing???
Webs are part of PVP. What about statements such as -"Currently if you're energy neutralized it's game over because you can't mwd out or rep yourself?"
Cap injectors, passive tanks, cap-less weapons
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
-"Currently when you're warp disrupted by a bigger and faster nano ship it's game over for you, so we reduce speeds of ships with warp disruptors by 50%"
Heading back to gate, killing them.
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
-"Currently when you're targeted by a lot of sniper battleships, you're likely to instapop and it's game over for you - so we reduce your signature by 40% for each BS targeting you and increase your velocity by 500%?"
Erm. I don't think I even need to respond to this one. You just switched from 1v1 to 50v1...
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
-"Currently if you're a new player and you undock, and go to 0.0 it's game over for you - so we fit a DDD on your rookie ships"
Actually I know several newer players doing just fine in 0.0.
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silken mouth
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:32:00 -
[551]
Thorax and Deimos may need a boost with these changes, maybe in form of a bouns to AB speed or something along these lines.
i would also like to add that instead of giving scramblers simply the abilitiy to disrupt mwds, i would prefer a script for that. Said script should be usable by disruptors as well, however, due scrambling strength, on would need 2 scripted disruptors or 1 scripted scrambler for the job. As a result you can de-mwd someone by scrambling or double disrupting him, but in order to keep him from warping you would need another unscripted scrambler/disruptor.
You implemented scripts for tactical variety, you should use your own tools!
Last i'd like say AF are even more useless with these changes, so please boost them along these changes!
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Euriti So basically with this we get following:
Nano Nerf
Small Gang Nerf
Blob Buff
Arazu/Lachesis buff
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
EVE Online: Dumbing shit down to f1-f8 since '07.
Where do you get the Arazu/Lach buff?
Bonus to warp scramblers, which will deactivate MWD? :)
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Johnstrjig
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Euriti
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
The old Deimos looks like it is screwed now
Will have to have a close look at this on SiSi when we get the chance.
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Xaen
Caldari Caritas.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[554]
Originally by: CCP Nozh On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier,
Except you'll rarely catch anyone with the pathetic range of a scrambler.
Originally by: CCP Nozh the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%.
Or it would be if you actually caught them.
Originally by: CCP Nozh But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
I certainly hope so, cause this is probably the last straw for me.
Ignore the UI problems for years, never bother adding a skill queue despite it being in the in development section for years, then ruin small gang/ship pvp in favor of blobbing caldari FW carebearfest.
There are completely ruined ships out there that have been ignored for far too long. Irritating bugs that keep coming back.
Between Age of Conan, Diablo III, and this speed ruination is probably it for me.
Enjoy what's left of your customer base while it lasts. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.
*boasts about 6:1 ratio*
*cries into cornflakes* ---
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat - - Nano is part of the game and Nano you'll never catch me is a problem This why we see proposed changed. As long as this change doesn't hurt an average 2500-3000 speeds average Joe gets with simple tech II models.
The basic speeds in the 1k-3k/sec areas are basically untouched, in fact boosted in a few cases.
Its mainly the huge multipliers you get when combining large numbers of speed bonuses which used to get you to the 10-30km/sec speeds. They have been "nerfed".
Check it out on sisi come monday. These changes need play testing by a lot of people, which is why we are giving so much time for you guys to play around with it (about a month).
This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
|
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!
All hail a new time of variety!
This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:
2008.07.21 21:02:00
Victim: Haniblecter Teg Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle System: Sivala Security: 0.6 Damage Taken: 554
Involved parties:
Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow) Security: 0.4 Corp: The Illuminati. Alliance: Pandemic Legion Faction: NONE Ship: Nemesis Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile Damage Done: 554
Dropped items:
Gallente Carrier (Cargo)
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html
6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.
I'd post the mail you sent me crying about it but it was so inappropriate I'd probably get banned for posting it.
At least you have the ballz not to cry to a GM about it, and was it a cry? Was it a whine? No, just a focused ray of hate to a *** who pops shuttles in Empire. Im all for Empire ganking, its part of the game, but the lowest part, for srue.
I hear there's alot of salvage to be stolen in dodoxie. Better get moving. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:34:00 -
[558]
Some of the dumbest, most ridiculous and utterly useless crap put out by CCP every, This tops The Swish Army Knife of Eve nonsense
Originally by: CCP STUPID
"Our current idea is to have MWD's only differ in capacitor capacity penalty as well as reactivation delay, instead of the speed progression between meta levels. This means they would all give the same speed boost, 500%, the aim being to reducing the number of factors affecting the maximum velocity attainable over a normal tech2 MWD."
words can't describe how ridiculous that who dev blog is and how amazing you know little about the game your are screwing with
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:34:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Euriti So basically with this we get following:
Nano Nerf
Small Gang Nerf
Blob Buff
Arazu/Lachesis buff
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
EVE Online: Dumbing shit down to f1-f8 since '07.
Where do you get the Arazu/Lach buff?
The fact that they get a warp scram/disruptor range bonus? So they can now disable MWDs from like 20-30km away?
Click me! You know you want to... |
D4RT N3RDiUS
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:34:00 -
[560]
so mi vaga is useles unless you giveme more dmg and long range.. becouse now every frikin inty take mi mwd off and im ded..
mi rapier who was the only ship with bonus with web now is uselees becouse now if you use and arazu or lachesis is 100 times beter now you can shut off mwd 30 km? 60 km with faction?? so now mi rapier is useless.. 60% of reduction of velocity ya ok..
mi sabre now flys more slow than a destro t1.. so.. nevermind..
mi ceptor ya is fun yo fly a claw with scramblers or one stileto but mate i was almost a year of skills for using mi rapier mi vaga and mi sabre.. so im screw..
let me see ah i can use a slow broadsword.. ya.. pff.. or mi hurrycane.. ya.. against a drake or brutix lol without mwd. LOL .. CMON!!!...
now the only way to use a comand ship minmatar is get the ship tanked.. ya sleipknir ftW!! now you cant shot like one astarte and tank a lot more.. ya shure in your dreams.
now the new sistem in eve is get 10 fukins drakes 2 logistics and gogogo kill em all CCP YOU ONLY LISTEN THE STUPID PPL SIDE ... dam you .
i dont understand now im useles after 1 year of game and now i need to go to a drake or a fukin tanked bss to do someting now.. ah i forgot BLOBS you are against BLOBS.. ya of course.. now this is for gameplay lol.. now the BLOBS are NERFED ya..
Wy you dont only nerf the faccion shit who becomes ridiculous fast only.. so all facction you only can fly at 8 9 k tops..
no you need to slow and kill all mi ships... now i have a fukin recon who are a shitload if you take this patch .. of course you dont mention giving the rapier one bonus like the caldaris recons so they can be more usefull in the gangs nooo you cant this is imposible!!! nooo.. lol you destroy almost all nice minmatar ships..
so im minmatar and i cant fly fast.. i cany hit enougth like the fukin blasterboats and mi fukin falloff is usseless now.. so now i have the shities ships in eve now.. now i go for caldari you are joking.. really..
mi snake set now is 50 % nerfed so now you nerf to the cristal set wen the caldaris become invencible to? so they can tank 10 bss with a nigghawk?? ya.. ya..
did you notice eve is allmost reduced to a 10 ships? or lees?? cmon if you are fast you are a ***got if you tank pff. ****er if you eccm oh coward!figth! .. rigth now for me eve is like a winers game who wine more beats the other.. lol.. how you supose we gona figth rigth now with 3 logistic and 2 gangs of tanked drakes? we figth till we get out of ammo?? lol... you are making this game more easy and easy .. we are lossing the fun of this right now if this is implemented the blobs wins.. and you now it .
i hope mi wining help in some way.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:35:00 -
[561]
Quote: I don't see a nano nerf. How am I going to get a vagabond inside 7.5km? I can't even get it into web range.
No nerf here.
You didn't fix anything CCP... You have Only lowered the "Ludicrous speed" threshold... for the worst. If I could get a Nano'ed ship inside 7.5k why wouldn't I have him webbed with the current system???
NOW: They orbit out of web range and kill you.
POST PATCH: They orbit out of scram AND web range and kill you.
/buys a vaga and continues to nano.
WHAT ABOUT TANKING? I thought that was a part of eve too? Bring that back to small gangs and then we can talk.
I PROPOSE SCRIPTS FOR WEBS
Long range: 40% Speed reduction at 20km(t2) Short range: 80% Speed reduction at 10km(t2)
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:35:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat - MWD balance between ship types is welcome. Makes it more logical.
- Warp scramble disable MWD Warp Disruptor mostly used in PVP 20-24km range. Warp scramble will only be used by fast ships. You're basically creating 1 ship type specific feature that will be put on interceptors, to give it an effect of 2 large energy neutralizers on a BS or of a Curse/Pilgrim to kill nano ships main advantage. I'm not yet sure if it's a cool feature or not, i guess testing will show, maybe it's a cool feature. But then you render webs useless, something used by all ship types.
- Nano is part of the game and Nano you'll never catch me is a problem This why we see proposed changed. As long as this change doesn't hurt an average 2500-3000 speeds average Joe gets with simple tech II models.
- Do not kill the webs Average nano ship can almost always run back to the gate even if it's double webbed by a rapier or huginn, because there is locking time and a lot of inertia. If you have to nerf webs, reduce the time it takes for webs to slow down a nano ship. Else you'll make another invulnerable group of nano ships that can't be caught at a gate. Warp scramble won't help, since mwd is activated, ship is chasing to the gate and webs are too weak.
Webs are part of PVP. What about statements such as -"Currently if you're energy neutralized it's game over because you can't mwd out or rep yourself?" -"Currently when you're warp disrupted by a bigger and faster nano ship it's game over for you, so we reduce speeds of ships with warp disruptors by 50%" -"Currently when you're targeted by a lot of sniper battleships, you're likely to instapop and it's game over for you - so we reduce your signature by 40% for each BS targeting you and increase your velocity by 500%?" -"Currently if you're a new player and you undock, and go to 0.0 it's game over for you - so we fit a DDD on your rookie ships"
Do not screw it for everyone else. I do not get webbed very often. Web effectiveness will mostly benefit those getting caught in low sec by pirates chasing back to the gate and don't want to engage. For PVP folks, you can ECM jam the opponent, Energy neutralize, and web him yourself and if you trying to escape, just MWD out of web range. If you're attacked by more than one person, you're more likely be dead anyway. There is a lot of things that can make it "Game over" for you in EVE, this is eve, adapt and learn to engage ships you feel confident about winning or 50/50% for for fun.
CCP, need to think about all kinds of engagements, small scale, solo and large scale and the effects this will have on pvp. Catching nano ships has never been easy, even with rapier and huginns, nano are still faster, if they see one of a minmatar recon, they will run, and they have time before being locked and their inertia speed. IN large engagements this is the reason minmatar recons are primary.
I do welcome the some of the changes though, and the more i keep thinking about interceptors disabling nano ships mwd the more i kind of like it, but don't quote me on this yet.
signed. also maybe if you want to keep web nerf, maybe chanhge them to 70-80, it will make them less game over, but still somewhat usefull, or ad scripts?
and what about deimos >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:35:00 -
[563]
Well I love how much you just runied about 10 Trillion isk in the market its going to crash hard and fast.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:35:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Euriti So basically with this we get following:
Nano Nerf
Small Gang Nerf
Blob Buff
Arazu/Lachesis buff
Blasterboat nerf (we really needed one )
EVE Online: Dumbing shit down to f1-f8 since '07.
Where do you get the Arazu/Lach buff?
Arazu + 7.5km Point = lol anything with mwd.
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Veldya on 25/07/2008 15:41:10
Originally by: Lee ChanKa great job great!!!!!
1. im not nano pilot look mine loses on goods kb
2. ****ing macroer on belt or any other person IS HARD 2 CACH EVEN WITH POLYCARBON NANOFIBER SHIP and now with tanked inty r hac or dictor it will be more ****ED + if he put point on you you are dead in maximum 3 salva SO MACROES PLEASE BUY ALL TOBIAS WARP DISTRUPTOR AND YOU ARE SAFE IF SOMETHING CACH YOU BEFORE YOU LOG OF ON BELT(DIDNT KNOW THET MACROES HAWE SO STRONG LOBY IN CCP)
3. ROAMING I CAN IMAGINE ROMAING GANG OF RR BS OR TANKED HACS COMAND-you come in hostile region large bubble tec 2 on g8 and TITAN CLOAKED IN GRID JUST NEAD 2 PRES DD AND YOUR ALL GANG ****ED + if you even reaproch thet titan with some magic or ms or anything till your frends come you are toasted from he or hes snipers
4. SOLO ROAMING-im roaming 90% of time solo or 95%-if i cach anything after 8 hours roaming it will be intresting!!!and if NOT-AFTER I JUMP IN 4 IDIOTS G8 CAMP WITH 1 INTI AND 3 BS IM DEAD THET IS PERFECT
OH I LOVE YOU EVE YOU MAKE GAME BETHER!!
NOW ALL LETC BUY LARGE BUBBLES TANKED HACS AND SNIPERS AND LETC CAMP SOME G8S THET IS SO FUN!!!!SUPERCAPS ARE COOL TO HAWE ALSO
AND NO!!!!IM NOT SARCASTIC!!!
lol forgot to mention the other account you have with the nanoer? ;)
Nice try though. You should come back to Gurista space, miss you nanoing through enemy space like nobody owns it. ;)
Edit: PS, your nano Drake was the best of your setups. ;)
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[566]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus taken with a large grain of salt.
The Utmost Contempt generator ran out of cap? |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver Nearly all nano pilots were convinced they werent overpowered while nearly all small gang activiy in low sec became nanos to counter nanos. It produced less variety since even a person with half a brain can disengage and save his ass if they encounter a counter to their ships.
I'm having extreme pleasure to see those who were saying "ADAPT or go back to wow" started whining after first dev blog that isnt even on TEST servers yet.
Please, cry some more, tears of unfathomable sadness are tasty indeed.
*makes a shitload of generalizations* ---
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[568]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I'm pleased to know that my first, decently well-thought out post will be ignored as a "knee-jerk reaction".
Look, unless nanos are actually getting boosted, my original post in this thread is still valid. Nerfing cruiser-sized nanoships is going to reduce the effectiveness of nanowarfare in general if not outright kill its viability, and the resulting consequences will exist.
Address the issue rather than writing it off.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Del Torres
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[569]
The Dev giveth and taketh. They say you taketh one option of guerillia warfare - giveth them another one.
I myself would like more options for smallscale PVP. But Eve never worked in favor of this. Everyone tries to improve his chances of survival (Leeroy 4tw). Some do with bringing more ships, some do with using tactics that are hard to counter/adapt to. But the intention is the same. Funny both sides argue so hard...
But I can't come up with an option. Now we have to extremes. The blob and nanos. Both suck from the other point of view. But I guess, in the end, we all want to have fun. And we can agree that a good fight is almost always fun. The most fun I had in engagements that were even numbered, because noone would run for the hills but stay and fight till the end.
The one that comes with a solution to force people to fight in even numbers will be a rich guy because he will get all his dreams can buy by CCP.
I for one think, flight formations with gangs may encourage this. But I did not hear much of them since the leadership skills were introduced...
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Ikvar
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:41:00 -
[570]
Also everyone who flew nano gangs will now just get like 4 falcons
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:42:00 -
[571]
Really I dont understand the whine. Speed has been nerfed but it was nerfed all over the ships classes. The webbers are going to be nerfed and 7.5 km scramblers have to reach very close to make any effect.
I remember to read fit neutralizers to counter nanos... well nanopilots fit neutralizers to neut the intys... you will not have problems then, even if scrambled by the 7.5 Km ones.
Speed was completly unbalanced. I think that now thinks will be alright. AB's will be a solution again and abortions like LSE Zealots (!) will belong to pass.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:42:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Ikvar
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
P.S. I wholly support the nano nerf, however the MWD disable thing is potentially death to blaster boats. To those of you who are saying 'Fit an afterburner' etc, you try flying a Blasterthron or something with an AB and tell me how that works out for you.
when blasterthron enters 7.5km range the target is already alost in popti, and your ionetria is so high that before you slow down you will be at 0
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:42:00 -
[573]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Check it out on sisi come monday. These changes need play testing by a lot of people, which is why we are giving so much time for you guys to play around with it (about a month).
The problem as I see it with using SISI as a guide to how it will work on Tranq is the simple numbers game. There won't be the blobs to test and see if guerrilla warfare is still viable. There won't be the sitting empires defending against the smaller alliance/corp to try out whether the defensive advantage is over the bar even more so. Some of the simpler changes, which are in the main simply a matter of comparing one number with another, will get tested and you should indeed get reasonably accurate results but how do you plan on testing these things?
---
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Xaen
Caldari Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:43:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Siqul Wow, you can really tell which alliances use nano's the most, huh? On the flipside, this brings speed back to where it should be, with more reliance on player skill rather than who's ship has the highest passive regen and speed blobs.
Long live our Utopian-beard-loving overlords?
You misspelled blob. I fixed it for you. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:43:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
The fact that they get a warp scram/disruptor range bonus? So they can now disable MWDs from like 20-30km away?
nope actualy 15-22 ( with domination scrambler )30 km is possible though, with a gang links >_>but if there is such gate camp your single nano would die anyway <_< though it will make arazu usefull in fleetbattles (somewhat) as it could slow down the tackler mwding for BSes, rhough i have doubts about survivability
You factor heat into that?
Click me! You know you want to... |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:44:00 -
[576]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 15:44:26
Originally by: Ikvar
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
P.S. I wholly support the nano nerf, however the MWD disable thing is potentially death to blaster boats. To those of you who are saying 'Fit an afterburner' etc, you try flying a Blasterthron or something with an AB and tell me how that works out for you.
This, basically. -
DesuSigs |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:45:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Check it out on sisi come monday. These changes need play testing by a lot of people, which is why we are giving so much time for you guys to play around with it (about a month).
The problem as I see it with using SISI as a guide to how it will work on Tranq is the simple numbers game. There won't be the blobs to test and see if guerrilla warfare is still viable. There won't be the sitting empires defending against the smaller alliance/corp to try out whether the defensive advantage is over the bar even more so. Some of the simpler changes, which are in the main simply a matter of comparing one number with another, will get tested and you should indeed get reasonably accurate results but how do you plan on testing these things?
/signed
The eft can do what ccp are asking but as per usual the reality on the main server is totally differant.
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Scrapple
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:45:00 -
[578]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Roland Childe Also i quite like the minmatar, and it makes me cry a little when i see how they're treated. I dont want to turn this into a boost minmatar thread, i just wanted my to voice my concerns about the announced chances.
You won't... But I will.
Minmatar have some of the worst skill training req's in game. You have to train two weapon systems and two tanks, or you can only fly half of the ships. Wow... yeah, that's useful, let's nerf some of the specialized ships
I have to agree with this post. Minmatar have very little left to be good at. Our capitals suck (for a myriad of reasons), we're out damaged by rails, and everything that techzer0 said. What will Minmatar have left after this nerf? maybe that we can change damage type (cool, but not cool enough)? You necessarily must consider the effect on Minmatar with this change because not only are minmatar ships generally the fastest, but also the only effective ships that get a web range bonus. Like it or not, the effect on minmatar must be considered.
I think you need to try again, these changes will screw too many people who have trained too hard. An other problem with this change is that it indirectly makes Titans even more powerful when they decided to DD from 230km and warp off. They are already tough enough to tackle, this will just make them that much more overpowered. Without interceptors that go 10kms+, all we'll be left with is trying to warp to something near a titan and bubble it (much harder).
How about something simple like changing the range of a web to be more in line with a warp disruptor? Leave the rest of the game mechanics the same.
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Redbad
Minmatar TSL Wolfpack
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:45:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
I like that idea!
RB
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Beguile
Minmatar Remedy Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:45:00 -
[580]
I usually never respond to this stuff but ccp has managed to pull me out of my forum lethargy.
Geez
CCP states they want to decrease blobs, but this just encourages it. I can live with alot of it, but why nerf mwd's. Theres skill involved? Is that why? Want to attract more wow players?
I'm not a heavy nano pilot, in fact I win a lot of fights because I am slower and tougher, intie wise my claw just commits and thats it most of the time. But killing hit and run by nerfing mwd so scramblers turn them off? Speed on bigger ships needed to be controlled but swinging all the way in the other direction, come on ccp for those of us who have played for years---we're getting sea sick from the back and forth motion.
Blobs ftw, solo and small group hit and run ftl. Lag ftw as usual.
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:45:00 -
[581]
I think the spirit of the changes is fine, nano-ships at the high end were getting a little ridiculous.
I think the changes when taken in their current form are way too heavy handed, especially to Minmatar ships like the Rapier. My other big issue is with the cost/power curve of a HAC. Most people who don't fly them probably don't realize that they cost as much as a battleship but don't insure for more than a T1 cruiser. Lowering the survivability of a ship like that doesn't seem like a great idea.
Take the Ishtar for instance, which was already on the razor thin edge of being too slow to be viable as a nano ship. Now it will definitely be too slow. So what's the point of flying the Ishtar now? My Ishtar cost me more than my Megathrons or Rokhs do, but is a paper tiger in comparison. If HAC speeds are going to get reduced, then their tank needs to be increased proportionally.
Again, I like the spirit of the change, but I think in addition to ratcheting back some of the changes, CCP needs to look VERY closely at individual ships and how they are affected by this. Some ships, like the Rapier and the Ishtar, are taking a huge nerf, all because some people in Vagabonds and Sacrileges are going too fast. So I don't disagree with an across the board speed nerf, just the severity and how certain ships are unfairly disadvantaged by the change.
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:46:00 -
[582]
thank effing god.
finally.
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Ikvar
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:46:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: Ikvar
Originally by: Ikvar DO NOT RUIN BLASTER SHIPS!
P.S. I wholly support the nano nerf, however the MWD disable thing is potentially death to blaster boats. To those of you who are saying 'Fit an afterburner' etc, you try flying a Blasterthron or something with an AB and tell me how that works out for you.
when blasterthron enters 7.5km range the target is already alost in popti, and your ionetria is so high that before you slow down you will be at 0
Not in every situation, plus if someone can then AB away you're ****ed in the shitter. Remember T2 warp scrams can reach almost 11k overloaded. I'm not saying that this WILL ruin blaster boats, I'm saying they'd better do it in a way that doesn't. If my lovely Megats and Hyps are still usable after this then I wholly support it as probably the best change to the game ever.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:46:00 -
[584]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Its mainly the huge multipliers you get when combining large numbers of speed bonuses which used to get you to the 10-30km/sec speeds. They have been "nerfed".
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:46:00 -
[585]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:47:20
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt.
Why do we have a thread for this then? ---
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Royal Ace
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:46:00 -
[586]
The Webber strenght on Rapier/Huginn should be boosted
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:47:00 -
[587]
"...ours is a world of volatile thermodynamics where all tension has its equal but opposite counterpart..." True. CCP keep going and thx for sharing your view with us.
"Caldari overlord issue" : I'm not afraid of missiles and I'm not flying nano HACs, check this.
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:47:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Hoshino Rika on 25/07/2008 15:47:24 true forgot bout heat,( it will be 23,2km on domination, 22 on TS,) but heat wont help with longer engagement, and as i said in short ones , is there is arazu , there probably is rapier anyway >_> so seriously no diference
edit: but noone forbids you from fiting faction disru and stay at 28 >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:47:00 -
[589]
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
The basic speeds in the 1k-3k/sec areas are basically untouched, in fact boosted in a few cases.
Its mainly the huge multipliers you get when combining large numbers of speed bonuses which used to get you to the 10-30km/sec speeds. They have been "nerfed".
So ships that are supposed to be "speedy" like the vaga will still be able to break 4 km/s?
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
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Xaen
Caldari Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:47:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Raquel Trotter Well what will be left for minmatar ships now? Speed is their only advantage currently over other races ships for most classes. I hope to hell that CCP are considering how minnie ships are balanced with other races after this change..
Also agree with other ppls comments that this seems to be another step in encouraging blobbing tactics.
if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Except that you'll now get torn apart by missiles and drones.
If this goes through, HACs are dead. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
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Xavras
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:48:00 -
[591]
What you should do CCP is start playing your own game... Not on some sick test server, on TQ so you know anything about how it's being played. My POV: 1. Majority of solo kills you get in f/x a vagabond on heavy well skilled targets is not because you speed tank that good, it's because you have a set of ECM drones that can JAM a BS or CS long enough so he cant hit you, or neutralise you. 2. Nerf polycarbons, cause they shouldnt be stronger than nanofibers, thats good. But instead of nerfing boosters/snakes/and sh|tload of other things with it, try how it works first. Then, and only then try changing more things. 3. If changes you proposed will be implemented like they look right now: - You'll have new vagabond = arazu, IMBA ship that can scramble and "web" you at the same time, aplying shitload of EW at the same time. - Everyone and their mother will have cloak on their roaming ship. Speaking of which - cloaking capitals/supercapitals are well balanced yeah? - You're gonna make eve-online -> camp online. Cause really, how many ships will be able to get back to gate or bail out of the bubble? Yeah, I forgot that then you'll have more subscritions cause a lot of ppl will pay for 2nd account just for scouting... (or that's what you wish for) 4. I didnt know that you can get a cruiser going faster than interceptor with same class of fitting. Thanks for the info. 5. You should be able to speed tank drones and guns of your size with good fitting. If you wish to encourage ppl to think tactically dont make eve game in which BS without web can hit nanocruiser orbitting it. 6. You fail to see that aplication of heat on MWD is imbalanced, how come? That's obvious, you get sick increase in speed... But yeah, nerf snakes, claymores, x-instinct's etc 7. Quiz: what's more IMBA vagabond that can go 12km/s and cant hit sh|t or a ragnarok that can DD, warp out in <8s and then safely cloak?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:48:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Del Torres The Dev giveth and taketh. They say you taketh one option of guerillia warfare - giveth them another one.
I myself would like more options for smallscale PVP. But Eve never worked in favor of this. Everyone tries to improve his chances of survival (Leeroy 4tw). Some do with bringing more ships, some do with using tactics that are hard to counter/adapt to. But the intention is the same. Funny both sides argue so hard...
But I can't come up with an option. Now we have to extremes. The blob and nanos. Both suck from the other point of view. But I guess, in the end, we all want to have fun. And we can agree that a good fight is almost always fun. The most fun I had in engagements that were even numbered, because noone would run for the hills but stay and fight till the end.
The one that comes with a solution to force people to fight in even numbers will be a rich guy because he will get all his dreams can buy by CCP.
I for one think, flight formations with gangs may encourage this. But I did not hear much of them since the leadership skills were introduced...
Quotin' dis for truth. It's just like the battle against lag. Find the ultimate solution, and spend the rest of your life on hawaii..
As long as the gallente and minmatar recons are looked at during testing, i think the changes could make eve a little more interesting.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:48:00 -
[593]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
What booster, exactly, will increase speed? Jesus christ, read your own god damn blog. ---
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:48:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
Why do we have a thread for this then?
Actually I was wondering this and then it came to me that it is somewhere for people to vent which is why this will be my last post on here for now as anything I post in this thread will, by a CCP employee's own admission, not be considered as valid as one I post in a few days even if I think it through the same amount. Good to know.
---
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[595]
Edited by: Veldya on 25/07/2008 15:49:10
Originally by: Cutesmile CCP need more missile speed and boosted explosion velocity, and they are completed the Caldari Online.
So I can shoot someone 200+km in a sniper turret BS and it hits instantly or I can shoot a missile which takes 25 seconds to reach the target if I am in a missile boat. Yeah, I can see the favoritism, should be called Caldari Online.
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Raquel Trotter Well what will be left for minmatar ships now? Speed is their only advantage currently over other races ships for most classes. I hope to hell that CCP are considering how minnie ships are balanced with other races after this change..
Also agree with other ppls comments that this seems to be another step in encouraging blobbing tactics.
if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Except that you'll now get torn apart by missiles and drones.
If this goes through, HACs are dead.
thats why they should nerf missile dps since they can hit everything now while the rest of the guns have to track with 50% webs
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
teji
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[597]
Rebalance speed fine even if you are taking an overly heavy hand with it.
But leave webs and scrams alone. Well if you can't do that just leave webs alone.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Beguile I usually never respond to this stuff but ccp has managed to pull me out of my forum lethargy.
Geez
CCP states they want to decrease blobs, but this just encourages it. I can live with alot of it, but why nerf mwd's. Theres skill involved? Is that why? Want to attract more wow players?
I'm not a heavy nano pilot, in fact I win a lot of fights because I am slower and tougher, intie wise my claw just commits and thats it most of the time. But killing hit and run by nerfing mwd so scramblers turn them off? Speed on bigger ships needed to be controlled but swinging all the way in the other direction, come on ccp for those of us who have played for years---we're getting sea sick from the back and forth motion.
Blobs ftw, solo and small group hit and run ftl. Lag ftw as usual.
Huge sig is ****ing huge!
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Ikvar
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Xaen
If this goes through, HACs are dead.
HACs have been dead in their original role at least since T2 BCs came out.
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:49:00 -
[600]
First off, I can't be bothered to read all of that 21 pages allready posted, so don't yell at me, because I'm repeating anything allready said.
I don't really understand, why people start crying about the announced changes, as they don't really change much of the current situation.
OK, what does actually change alot is Warp Scramblers interrupting MWDs. An Arazu or Lachesis do profit from this, as they'll have a range-bonus making it possible to reach out up to 18km with T2-scramblers with LvL 5. The Interceptors ment to tackle have only 11.3km with LvL 5, which is still in web-range and deadly.
Webs getting reduced to 60%? Who cares? Multiple webs from a Rapier do their work still pretty good ((5000m/sec - 60%)-60%) = 800m/sec instead of todays 50m/sec. This is actually in favour for the nano-Ships, which should've no hassle in killing Ceptors withn a few seconds to start with, so the new Warp Scramblers are not very frightening tbh.
Speed getting nerfed? So What? It get's nerfed for everyone, and I don't care, if my Vaga get's it's speed reduced from 5000m/sec to 4000m/sec actually, as it's still enough speed to head back to the gate.
Also there's no difference between:
5000m/sec vs. 1000m/sec or 3000m/sec and 1000m/sec. I'm still much more faster and Missiles do very little damage even at those 3000m/sec and turrets still not tracking fast enough, while I orbit at 15+km.
The only thing that get's cut down really is the speed of ships, that we're never intended to go 3000+m/sec like an Ishtar, Zealot, etc...
Let's wait and see on SiSi from monday on, what we're getting from those changes, but I doubt, that it will be all that bad like people claim it to be.
And yes... I fly nano-Ships allmost 100% of my time. .
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:50:00 -
[601]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
What about missiles? There is no tracking equivalent for them, the only way to avoid them was speed and that is being removed. __________________
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:50:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Garreck I realize Providence is a microcosm of Eve culture and not representative of all Eve combat...but the majority of nano-usage there is to gank npcers 10v1, not to take on larger fleets. We've got a lot of enemies who are skilled raiders and I'm not trying to undermine that...but based on my experience against nanos I just don't see where this "but now we can't take on blobs" argument comes from. Currently, when the blob arrives, the nanos bail. With these changes and proper scouting...that's still a viable option.
Garreck, you're one of the only people in CVA I respect, so try not to get offended by my thoughts on this.
You guys don't respond to the nano in the traditional fashion, last time I checked. A normal nanogang can run into a place like TDE4, MB-NKE, or PNQY, sit around for a few minutes, and the locals will blob up and try to get you with varying results - while nanogangs can't outright decimate those formed up fleets, especially the ones with carrier and RR support in a cynojammed system, they can pick off the support and at least "play" with that fleet.
CVA doesn't bite often, if ever. Whereas BRUCE, Foundation, Smashkill, IAC, IRON, they'll all bite on it and try to kill you.
With this nerf, the ability to disengage will have been lessened, meaning you have to commit more to a fight now, which favors - guess what - blobs and the defender, especially where good scouting isn't enough. I mean, they can have a force ready to go on a nearby jump bridge, so that when you engage their bait forces, they JB and then warp onto you - in the past, proper scouting of nearby systems meant you only really had to watch out for the logonski, but these days...
Click me! You know you want to... |
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:51:00 -
[603]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:51:00 -
[604]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 25/07/2008 15:52:00 Speed was a problem to the point where you didnt see battleships in solo or roaming. BC's were popular cause of their cost.
This will bring ships back into the game, like assault frigates adn such.
Hell, nano-roaming is still an option, just gotta nano in interceptors.
How can anyone say anythign to this nerf. It was a problem, nano's were nigh invicible, this'll fix it. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:51:00 -
[605]
There's the sane way to nerf nanos, such as nerfing polycarbs to be in line with the rest of the speed rigs if not farther for starters, maybe reducing the effectiveness of the speed modules, snakes, etc. Still useful, not quite as uber. That's expected, and that's fine.
Then, there's the CCP way to nerf nanos, which completely obliterates their effectiveness in all cases, in addition to introducing new tactical decisions such as either dying in a blasterboat trying to get into range with either a scrammed MWD or craptastic AB or just completely forgetting they exist. Also, it won't fix blobs - just maybe change their composition.
Way to go, CCP Nozh. You cranked the Zulupark Effect up to 11 - I thought posting something as ill-informed as this devblog would be impossible. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:51:00 -
[606]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I'm really glad to know that input from the community is taken into account by CCP and that we're not just all worthless passengers in this terribly driven clown car.
If you're going to put up a thread where people can post comments on a dev blog, maybe you should pay attention to what people are saying - it's pretty easy to ignore the posts which are obvious whines, but ignoring all of the posts as "knee jerk" reactions when people have put time into explaining some of their concerns further reinforces some peoples opinions that CCP is synonymous with a cylindrical container filled with phallic looking objects. ---
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Saturn 5
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:52:00 -
[607]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt.
translation: We don't actually care what our player base thinks about our proposals, we're pretty much gonna do whatever the hell we like.
Does CCP have a Customer Service dept? I would suggest that they are sacked, but with no customer care team, who would make important decisions on balancing game play?
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:52:00 -
[608]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth As a mission runner who has never going into 0.0 or used a micro warp drive,
the majority of EVE don't get their jollies off by ganking PVE inclined people like your fail nano-exploit alliance
more PL tears they taste soooo sweeeet
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Hani EQ
H A V O C The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:52:00 -
[609]
Thanks CCP. For moving towards making this a thinking man's game again. Eve is about strategy, tactics and experience not how fast you can spam your mwd.
To all the whiners in this thread. The First Person Shooters can be purchased, that way .The twitchers can go twitch somewhere else.
Props CCP.
Firmus Ixion - Our shining moments come in our darkest hours
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:53:00 -
[610]
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
Why do we have a thread for this then?
Actually I was wondering this and then it came to me that it is somewhere for people to vent which is why this will be my last post on here for now as anything I post in this thread will, by a CCP employee's own admission, not be considered as valid as one I post in a few days even if I think it through the same amount. Good to know.
Actually they said knee-jerk rants will be taken with a large grain of salt. Not well reasoned posts.
But TBH any feedback is worthless until people have been able to try the changes anyway.
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GETMEDOWNFROMNYAHH
Minmatar Basement Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:53:00 -
[611]
why does every good thing in this game get nerfed? it's a crock of bs if you ask me why dont you guys change the game to how it was originally and I BET people would be a lot happier
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:53:00 -
[612]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
How do you justify the statement that a hac that cost 3-5 bil in speed fittings and implants is unbalanced cos its almost or as fast as a 20mil fully fitted interceptor?.
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A Sinner
Logical Progression
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:54:00 -
[613]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
Glad to see you reply and approve to a thread of which owner insults your customers. You could have slipped something in there like : please behave or whatever ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink" |
facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:54:00 -
[614]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
You do realize that very few HAC pilots actually use speed implants, right?
Right?
RIGHT?
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:54:00 -
[615]
Heartstone has a point. I seem to recall a certain EVE dev proposing a Deimos "buff" (read: nerf) based on the fact he was consistently trying to 1v1 a Zealot and failing miserably.
This is an example of what I fear might be running through the devs heads this time around, looking at things in isolation.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:54:00 -
[616]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
The basic speeds in the 1k-3k/sec areas are basically untouched, in fact boosted in a few cases.
Its mainly the huge multipliers you get when combining large numbers of speed bonuses which used to get you to the 10-30km/sec speeds. They have been "nerfed".
So ships that are supposed to be "speedy" like the vaga will still be able to break 4 km/s?
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
I just had an EPIPPHANY. I NOW KNOW WHY CCP DOES STUFF LIKE THIS!. THEY USE EFT AND SISI TO BASE ALL OF THEIR OPINIONS AND IDEAS ABOUT LIFE ON TQ JUST LIKE THE IDIOTS ON THE FORUMS!!!! GOTCHA!!!!
I can't believe I actually figured out the connection. Ridiculous EFT fits and SiSi stats mean you must know exactly how people play on TQ, BINGO!. See your not far from your user base CCP! You inspired them!
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
what a bunch of illiterate, irresponsible, bend me over backwards to help the failures in this game bunch of destroyers, not devs, see you have to actually develop something worth playing instead of just destroying what the players have perfected.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[617]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
Apart from when they, guess what, get their MWD disabled
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[618]
Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 25/07/2008 15:55:37
Originally by: Stab Wounds
more PL tears they taste soooo sweeeet
/me thinks there will be enough tears tomorrow to fill whole Arrakis
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth As a mission runner who has never going into 0.0 or used a micro warp drive,
the majority of EVE don't get their jollies off by ganking PVE inclined people like your fail nano-exploit alliance
more PL tears they taste soooo sweeeet
he was in 2 nano fail alliances Tri and PL but he was also in goonfleet before that and was kicked out because he was too annyoing/stupid.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[620]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
So you decided that because these game-breaking speeds are so common, despite costing 4b+ for the implants, 200m for the MWDs, and hundreds of millions of isk for the rogues/faction ODs, etc, that it would a good idea to spend countless hours trying to fix it?
I wonder how many other bugs could have been addressed, ones that have been around for months, but were not because of this prudent use of programmer time. ---
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[621]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
This is a pretty horrible argument, EVE was a totally different game back then, less players, pre-NOS-nerf, pre-ECM-nerf, pre-whatever else nerf. Or do you mean to say that you're bringing those back now? Small roaming gangs back then worked because there were other powerful tools available for smaller gangs, now as it is nano is one of the few remaining options for a small roaming gang to avoid running into a vastly superior force and dying immediately.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
The only time in the past when anything actually changed from CCP:s own supposedly Dev-blog "idea" to what actually went on Tranquility was when THEoneTHATshallBEunnamed suggested some ridiculous carrier-changes, and the only reason it got changed was because of overwhelming criticism BEFORE THEY WERE IMPLEMENTED ON SISI. You're telling me that your coders will make all these changes on SiSi only to have to revamp them because of eg. a week of testing? Once it hits Sisi it's obviously gone through a chain of decisionmaking and player-feedback from the "in general 'you'" is mostly PR-nonsense (akin to CSM-influence).
We object because we like this game and wish it not to go south like so many other MMO:s that changed because the devs catered to those who whined too much from the get-go. You have a working game-mechanic, and as the old saying goes: If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Black Hand.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Zikka
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
Why do we have a thread for this then?
Actually I was wondering this and then it came to me that it is somewhere for people to vent which is why this will be my last post on here for now as anything I post in this thread will, by a CCP employee's own admission, not be considered as valid as one I post in a few days even if I think it through the same amount. Good to know.
Actually they said knee-jerk rants will be taken with a large grain of salt. Not well reasoned posts.
But TBH any feedback is worthless until people have been able to try the changes anyway.
If CCP says that all NPC bounties will be cut in half, I'm pretty sure you'll say that it's a bad idea even before they've tested it ;)
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:58:00 -
[623]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2008 16:04:17
These changes will affect pvp so much that I really need to get on the test server to try them before saying anything about it.
It changes every variable of combat, from catching and keeping the target in range, to tracking and hitting it while in combat.
Caldari will be happy with this change since they will now hit everything hard again while sitting behind heavy shield tanks.
---
Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:58:00 -
[624]
Good and needed change, without nothing that drastic sounding yet.
-Lasse with his very beloved >18 km/s nano-Vindicator..
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:59:00 -
[625]
Look at all dem cryin littal babbies in this thread -----------
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:59:00 -
[626]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful. Some of the comments in here have been interesting and useful, others not so much. thats what "grain of salt" is all about. If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
So umm no offense but can we have an answer to them rather than answering the flippant ones please? Such as my question about how you are going to test the wide ranging implications of a change like this when you need the numbers to do so which simply aren't ever going to be available on SISI? ---
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Saint Lucifer
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 15:59:00 -
[627]
Originally by: Lee ChanKa great job great!!!!!
1. im not nano pilot look mine loses on goods kb
2. ****ing macroer on belt or any other person IS HARD 2 CACH EVEN WITH POLYCARBON NANOFIBER SHIP and now with tanked inty r hac or dictor it will be more ****ED + if he put point on you you are dead in maximum 3 salva SO MACROES PLEASE BUY ALL TOBIAS WARP DISTRUPTOR AND YOU ARE SAFE IF SOMETHING CACH YOU BEFORE YOU LOG OF ON BELT(DIDNT KNOW THET MACROES HAWE SO STRONG LOBY IN CCP)
3. ROAMING I CAN IMAGINE ROMAING GANG OF RR BS OR TANKED HACS COMAND-you come in hostile region large bubble tec 2 on g8 and TITAN CLOAKED IN GRID JUST NEAD 2 PRES DD AND YOUR ALL GANG ****ED + if you even reaproch thet titan with some magic or ms or anything till your frends come you are toasted from he or hes snipers
4. SOLO ROAMING-im roaming 90% of time solo or 95%-if i cach anything after 8 hours roaming it will be intresting!!!and if NOT-AFTER I JUMP IN 4 IDIOTS G8 CAMP WITH 1 INTI AND 3 BS IM DEAD THET IS PERFECT
OH I LOVE YOU EVE YOU MAKE GAME BETHER!!
NOW ALL LETC BUY LARGE BUBBLES TANKED HACS AND SNIPERS AND LETC CAMP SOME G8S THET IS SO FUN!!!!SUPERCAPS ARE COOL TO HAWE ALSO
AND NO!!!!IM NOT SARCASTIC!!!
You sound like you work for ccp.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:00:00 -
[628]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Raquel Trotter Well what will be left for minmatar ships now? Speed is their only advantage currently over other races ships for most classes. I hope to hell that CCP are considering how minnie ships are balanced with other races after this change..
Also agree with other ppls comments that this seems to be another step in encouraging blobbing tactics.
if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Except that you'll now get torn apart by missiles and drones.
If this goes through, HACs are dead.
You'll still be able to dictate range. You'll still have the buffer to take considerable fire. You'll still be able to disengage at will. You'll still whine.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:00:00 -
[629]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful.
And saying "there's no problem" when the house is on fire is?
Black Hand.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:00:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:57:02
^^^^ yes this is me im the gay one
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
So you decided that because these game-breaking speeds are so common, despite costing 4b+ for the implants, 200m for the MWDs, and hundreds of millions of isk for the rogues/faction ODs, etc, that it would a good idea to spend countless hours trying to fix it?
I wonder how many other bugs could have been addressed that actually effect a wide player base, ones that have been around for months, but were not because of this prudent use of programmer time.
Heh Prudent use of programmer time you know they Made Ambulation right? Walking around in stations in a ****ing space ships shooting game?
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August Hayek
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[631]
Tri and PL are whining, because CCP nerfs their almost invincible nano tactics.
You made my day
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[632]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The basic speeds in the 1k-3k/sec areas are basically untouched, in fact boosted in a few cases.
O rly? Tell that to <everyone with an MWD>.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt.
This was not a smart thing to say, as it sounds like you mean all comments this weekend are worthless, which was probably not your intention. Especially since there is, you know, this thread. -
DesuSigs |
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
If CCP says that all NPC bounties will be cut in half, I'm pretty sure you'll say that it's a bad idea even before they've tested it ;)
Which is a far more simple change. There are a lot of factors combining here and many of them actually work in the vagabonds favour. It's higher base speed means it won't be stacking nerfed so badly. Reduced webs mean that one web no longer = death, etc.
Nano ships were overpowered, MWDs were overpowered, webs were overpowered, warp scramblers were underpowered, the Arazu was underpowered. All of those points are addressed by these changes and until it has been tried we cannot say how much they have got right or wrong.
(And as a side point actually I might not say it is a bad idea, it would depend on what other changes were made at the same time. Isk is too easy to get in Eve.)
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[635]
Originally by: Matrixcvd No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
hi matrixcvd :) will you be quitting now? id like to has your stuffz. dont let the door hit you on your way out. quit yer whining. go back to wow, etc etc etc. kthxbie o/
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Saturn 5
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:01:00 -
[636]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
Neither is openly negating the opinion of your user base. Although, I do appreciate the honesty.
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Asero does anyone else think it's funny that this is a falcon boost?
since now it will take forever to get up at them form 200km away?
Falcon is a specialized jamming ship, it can't hit with any weapons at that range so all it can do is jam. You can get snipers that can hit a Falcon as far out as the Falcon can jam. If you build a falcon for long range jamming it goes down pretty fast to a sniper.
If you take balanced gangs out to PvP with and set light drones on jammers they will have to disengage or they will be taken down very quickly.
Nano shouldn't just be the quick fix which is anti-everything, people should take balanced gangs vs other balanced gangs. If someone has EW then you should try taking an EW ship or have a contingency to counter it. Having the one-ship-do-everything because it travels at ridiculous speeds is just an easy cop out.
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GETMEDOWNFROMNYAHH
Minmatar Basement Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[638]
O-M-G WE ARE ALLL GOING TO DIE! :(
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[639]
Too much, too soon.
The changes miss the mark. The biggest change, that to the scrambler, has no impact on nanocruisers, which operate outside of web range. The changes in speed have no real impact in ability to disengage (the real power of nano) because the changes are across the board.
The changes are way too big. They should be done slowly, one at a time. This is balancing. When you balance something, you change things slowly, one at a time, until you've hit an equilibrium. There are at least 5 or 6 massive changes in this blog that will impact EVERY ship - not just nanoships.
Binary effects - get rid of them!! You said you wanted rid of the binary style of the current webifiers, then you go and add an absolute binary module in the form of the new scrambler. WTS: Some consistency.
Horrible blog. right intentions, completely the wrong implementation.
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[640]
50% webifier is the most stupid thing I ever heard.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[641]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Why in the hell would you fit a ship like that?
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[642]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
Let me try something different and be constructive then for a minute:
Why do all of these changes have to go into effect at once? Why can't you fix polycarbons, which are broken, next week, and then take three weeks to see how it pans out on the real server? If that doesn't fix it enough, look at more stacking penalties, or gang bonuses, and then take a few weeks to see if that balances enough.
Nanos have been a staple of PvP for years, and people have been complaining about them for just as long; why the sudden rush to "fix" them all of a sudden? ---
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Gypsio III
You'll still be able to dictate range. You'll still have the buffer to take considerable fire. You'll still be able to disengage at will.
Unless there's an Arazu in the enemy's gang. Then you'll sit still and die. Wonderful act of balancing.
Quote:
You'll still whine.
You'll still be clueless.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:02:00 -
[644]
Originally by: Murina cos with 14 kills and 8 losses in your entire eve career it seems that you should hardly care about pvp?.
Like i said i mean no offence i just find it interesting that a lot of the pro nano nerf ppl are hardly what i would consider active pvpers?.
Depends what you consider active. Active? yes Passionate? yes Regular? yes In 0.0? no, but the rub is that nano-ships aren't 0.0 specific. If they were then sure, I'd have no place to comment, but they can be flown anywhere. You don't see huge BS blobs in low-sec or high-sec that often, but you do see nano-ships.
As for my personal kills, well anyone in the Amarr militia will tell you that you can go out quite a lot and just not see any action because the alternative is engaging large fleets, so it's not like I'm unsympathetic to the difficulties blobs cause. I just don't feel nano-ships are the right solution. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:03:00 -
[645]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
you do realize that fit costs somewher ein the range of FOUR BILLION ISK right?
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:03:00 -
[646]
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier.
This is only correct when fighting ships with multi-bonused MWDs, where the MWD sig radius penalty is dwarfed by the MWD speed factor. If these two numbers are equal, then the ship is just as hard to track whether or not the MWD is active, and the weaker web means that it's going three times as fast as before and becomes much harder to hit.
I'd suggest reducing the sig radius penalty on MWDs somewhat to compensate for this, or perhaps balancing it in some other way. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[647]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful. Some of the comments in here have been interesting and useful, others not so much. thats what "grain of salt" is all about. If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
A lot of people are yelling about the sky falling because it's pretty obvious that the dev team has never tried to solo-gank a ratter, nor actually experienced daily PvP of the sort that these changes potentially break. Killing a drake or a raven is about to become even more impossible due to a speed change, when an alternate fix that would've worked is adjusting the capacitor of HACs (such as the sacrilege) so that a ship can not use a MWD for a long period of time (such as a vagabond). I agree that speeds are pretty absurd right now, but completely breaking the way the game works without experiencing half of the stuff HAC pilots do doesn't make much sense. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[648]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Wait, is this the 4km/s Vagabond.
Holy... How about actually flying it without snakes, like 90% of EVE's nano population.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[649]
Quote: No special named modules etc.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Implants. full snake set.
Quote: full snake set.
Quote: snake set
...
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[650]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Lol 4x Speed mods and no nano type mods. Fail
Also, this only barely broke 4k? Jesus the nerf is worse than i thought.
|
|
lebrata
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[651]
Originally by: August Hayek Tri and PL are whining, because CCP nerfs their almost invincible nano tactics.
You made my day
10 kills 3 losses ever in your time in eve?..why do you even care about any pvp nerf or boost?.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:04:00 -
[652]
I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again.
CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships.
Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[653]
Originally by: August Hayek Tri and PL are whining, because CCP nerfs their almost invincible nano tactics.
You made my day
You're still going to be shit with or without a nano-nerf, and we're still going to beat you like a ***** after the nano-nerf. Count on it. ---
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[654]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
your not just adjusting speeds, your fundementally altering gameplay because you need to justify a stupid module that has no justification? I have stated this thousands of times before, its called DARWIN. The AB is not useful for PVP so let it just die. All you are doing is dramatically changing the game to polish off your egos because, CCP can't possibly make a module thats not useful for PVP. But all you are doing is increasing the blob factor EVERY TIME YOU TOUCH THE CORE ELEMENTS OF PVP. You can't test that on SiSi, you dont know what these changes will do to PVP when they get into the hands of mindless losers in the failure cascade of giagantic blob alliances. You have no idea.
If it was to stop the 20+km/s intys and 10km/s vagas then so be it but it appears you have taken it upon yourselves to play God for the sake of playing God, why dont you all go stroke something else instead of your beards and realize the ridiculousness in all the things that you do when you get so high and mighty and then laugh about it... utter garbage.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[655]
Edited by: The Mach on 25/07/2008 16:07:38 CCP, no offensebut..... you kinda missed the water when you fell out of the nano ship.
...
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[656]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/07/2008 16:05:34
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Gypsio III
You'll still be able to dictate range. You'll still have the buffer to take considerable fire. You'll still be able to disengage at will.
Unless there's an Arazu in the enemy's gang. Then you'll sit still and die. Wonderful act of balancing.
Quote:
You'll still whine.
I'm still clueless.
Explain to me the difference between current Rapier and future Arazu. The dynamics are effectively the same.
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facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[657]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Ok let me repeat myself. I will repeat the lines so you understand it too.
NOT ALL HAC PILOTS FLY SNAKED-OUT PODS, THEY ARE THE MINORITY. NOT ALL HAC PILOTS FLY SNAKED-OUT PODS, THEY ARE THE MINORITY. NOT ALL HAC PILOTS FLY SNAKED-OUT PODS, THEY ARE THE MINORITY.
Can you at least provide statistics about the amount of snake sets sold and used, since you're so adamant about fitting HACs with them? |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[658]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
hahahahaha ---
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Lil'Bunneh FoFo
Uranus Assault Team
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:05:00 -
[659]
CCP > We're gonna crap on your gameplay Playerbase > We're gonna crap on your thread
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[660]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful. Some of the comments in here have been interesting and useful, others not so much. thats what "grain of salt" is all about. If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
No it's not that at all, it's that the player base obviously has foresight which CCP employees are currently lacking. You think nerfing webifiers is a good thing? Yeah THE best counter to nanos which also are NEEDED by other ships to track their target. Then make it so you can have your MWD turned off by someone else without capping them out first? Yeah that will be fun, 1 Inty completly messes you up, since you can't track it back, since your web does nothing.
You might also notice that the main people who are for this pathetic excuse for a development of the game are also the ones in unknown corps, who rejected the VARIETY of counters that exist already for disabling nano ships.
Myself, personally, I fly blaster ships, before that I flew missile ships, I know how it is to fight against nanos. It's pretty easier to either a) kill the nano or b) make it run away. Either way you don't die. As a player who doesn't regularly fly nano I don't see any reason to nerf it in it's current state, the clever players counter it, the ******ed players sit and whine because they can't figure out how to counter it.
Don't give into to the noobs, instead teach them to not be noobs, you can tell them how, maybe they will listen to you. _______________
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Gypsio III
You'll still be able to dictate range. You'll still have the buffer to take considerable fire. You'll still be able to disengage at will.
Unless there's an Arazu in the enemy's gang. Then you'll sit still and die. Wonderful act of balancing.
At a closer range (30km with best faction scram and skills on 5) then a rapier (40km with best named, 60km with best faction) currently achieves. What is your point?
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Admus
Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[662]
The way I see it, nanos will still be viable with some changes in fitting and tactics. It doesn't seem like conventional nano-speeds are getting hit hard, just the LUDICROUS SPEED, GO! ones. It's more of a rebalancing of speed between the ship classes, which I think was much needed.
The webber effectiveness change is interesting though. We'll have to see how this one plays out. To the test server!
---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way." |
Vim
Spook Division
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[663]
I to have a slight fear for my dear blasterboats, ravens hitting no worriess of tracking at 26km with changeable damagetypes and hot dps *s* . Vagas not going 5kms is sad to. There has evolved alot of tactics to deal with nanoers, for the non lazy. I think thoose changes might be over the hill and far away as a package. Dont do it all at once, a complete change to warfare, brrr. At the same time ludicrous speeds have been somewhat broken. The small web drones, scripts for webs. Way better ideas imho then the 50% webs and mwds getting cut off with scrams. But as always, if you dont like what comes out of the changes your wallet might lose interest...
Ill be on sisi alot :D Also, make 0.0 sov more into fw mechanics and we might be getting somewhere ^^
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[664]
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 25/07/2008 16:09:53
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
4km/s vaga
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
So you're saying you need a full snakeset after the patch to get a vagabond to ~4km/s?
And what happens to said vaga if there's a -comingFOTMARAZU- scramming me?
Black Hand.
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ChoppinBrocolli
ElitistOps GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 -
[665]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
hahahahaha CCP really doesn't know much about this game
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Markius Proxim
Free Market Enterprizes Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:07:00 -
[666]
Ease of balance, rather than trying to nerf every module's percentage why not set a "critical mach" for each ship. Max speed the ship can go without "breaking up". I understand that this is space and therefore mach and resistances causing things to break up are less apparent.
Then set modules to approach that "critical mach", similar to resists, allowing for a universal stacking and a hard ceiling, avoiding "ludicrous speed", but still that drive to approach maximum speed.
maybe call it "max integrity speed"
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:07:00 -
[667]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 15:37:06
Originally by: Xaen UI problems
Your stuff?
Actually I've got a lot of time for Xaen's complaints about the UI. That said, fixing gameplay problems probably does have to come above fixing usability issues, but not forever. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
RDevz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:07:00 -
[668]
The tears in this thread are wonderful.
In the words of the gloating peanut gallery following the ECM nerf, the torp nerf, the drone nerf, and for that matter, every other nerf in this game, adapt or die.
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:07:00 -
[669]
Edited by: Riho on 25/07/2008 16:12:58
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
here is the FAIL
full snake set.... this IS ******ED... the only ship thats meant to go fast is nefred to uselessness..
if you cant do 4km/s without snakes on a vaga you can just remove this ship from the game.
vaga has always been meant as a BIG interceptor.... it cant do almost any damage anyways when mwding.
now removing the speed that this ship had.... whats the point of this ship again.
most ppl dont even use snakes or have a boosting claymore in gang.... mybe 5% or less eve players have.
EDIT: i didnt see at first
FULL SNAKE SET ??? thats 2 bil
T2 RIGS ???? damn expencive
this the first time i have to say to dev.... LESS EFT NOOB... seriously ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:07:00 -
[670]
So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
Click me! You know you want to... |
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Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:08:00 -
[671]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
please tell me that you're not a real dev
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facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
If you factor in the snake set and the t2 rigs like that CCP guy is, you get an empty wallet. |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
4km/s vaga
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
So you're saying you need a full snakeset after the patch to get a vagabond to ~4km/s?
a Full snake set and T2 rigs.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 -
[674]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Since this needs testing, could I petition for snake implants (both low-grade and high grade) and faction/deadspace modules (MWD, Overdrives etc) to be seeded on SiSi, so this can get the proper testing it deserves? There's been a while since I was on SiSi, so if these items are allready there, ignore me. :)
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Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
over 9000 -------------------------------------------------
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Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:10:00 -
[676]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
i actually get 5,654m/s with 2 polycarbs(t1 ofc) 2 overdrives and 1 nano. thats with hac5 and accel control 4. is it bad that i beat the dev fit by 1500m/s at 1/40th the cost?
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Zirator
Industrial Docktors
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[677]
I haven't read through this topic but I saw one minor issue with the proposed changes.
If you reduce the effectiveness of webbifiers you also reduce the change of stopping a ship that is MWD'ing back to the gate in a bubblecamp. Of course the proposed warp scrambler stops the mwd from running but by the time lock is aquired the ship has gained enough speed to let it coast back to the gate.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[678]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 16:11:38
Originally by: Matrixcvd what a bunch of illiterate, irresponsible, bend me over backwards to help the failures in this game bunch of destroyers, not devs, see you have to actually develop something worth playing instead of just destroying what the players have perfected.
I do hope you have the balls to go to the Fanfest and say that to their face, because if not, you should shut up now. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[679]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Unless there's an Arazu in the enemy's gang. Then you'll sit still and die. Wonderful act of balancing.
Dear sir, now you die when there is huggin rapier in gang, with far greater range on T1 than faction ( domination! ) fitted arazu
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[680]
Ok, so I can't go weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee anymore, I'll wait to see how many of the changes are implemented, then look at how to go from there.
To CCP whens the blob nerf due?
To all you people who think its great and are enjoying the nano pilots distaste, we always adapt, thats how we come up with things like nano setups etc, no matter how many changes you get by coming to the forums and crying we'll find another way to screw you.
Remember that, you read it here first.
One more thing, leave my blasterthron alone please, NO SERIOUSLY CCP, STAY THE **** AWAY FROM IT....
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Since this needs testing, could I petition for snake implants (both low-grade and high grade) and faction/deadspace modules (MWD, Overdrives etc) to be seeded on SiSi, so this can get the proper testing it deserves? There's been a while since I was on SiSi, so if these items are allready there, ignore me. :)
Last I looked faction implants are seeded. Faction modules not so much (cos they aren't on the market).
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[682]
I, uhh...wow. I was pretty reasonable in my last post, but if CCP is really balancing things based on Snakes, that's really, really, really stupid.
As many, many people have pointed out: Most of us don't run snakes, because most of us won't pay 3bn for some implants. Hello, CCP, wake up. If snakes are the issue, nerf snakes, not everything else. Seriously, come on.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[683]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 16:11:46
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
Well, with all my snakes and faction gear, I get about 5.5-6km/s with my vaga, so you're probably looking at about 3-3.5km/s. ---
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Damien Wind
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:11:00 -
[684]
Hello CCP Devteam,
I don't know if anyone else has suggested this, but in regards to the webifier effectiveness reduction (down to ~50-60% instead of 90%), I'm wondering if you'd want to look into other possibilities for balancing this:
-Webifiers work off of probability, akin to ECM Jammers. -Limiting the use of webifiers to 1 module active at a time, akin to AB/MWD limitations. -Reduction in effectiveness (as was in the dev post) in combination with either of the other two suggestions.
I figured I'd just add my other thoughts in addition to the devs. Any combination that works (in terms of balance) sounds good to me. It could be worth testing out various combinations of probability, limitation, and reduced effectiveness for webifiers to see what actually works, fairly, in PvP combat between various classes and builds.
Time consuming, but probably worth it! :)
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:12:00 -
[685]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 15:37:06
Originally by: Xaen UI problems
Your stuff?
Actually I've got a lot of time for Xaen's complaints about the UI. That said, fixing gameplay problems probably does have to come above fixing usability issues, but not forever.
His complaints are valid, his suggestions excellent, his attitude annoying as **** (for instance: complaining about the UI (again) in a thread specifically about the current dev blog). He should either quit or work for CCP, preferably the latter, but if the former really happens I want his stuff. -
DesuSigs |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:12:00 -
[686]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
4km/s vaga
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
People who have obviously never played the game should not be allowed to balance it ---
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:12:00 -
[687]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
Then why post a dev blog with changes so radical they now bore this 20+page (and growing) thread and even more whines on the other forum sections?
Seriously, if you had plans of changing a game mechanic in such a way that it even remotely sounds radical, you didnt expect 100% whines? -
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facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:12:00 -
[688]
Edited by: facialimpediment on 25/07/2008 16:13:16
Originally by: Entelechia I, uhh...wow. I was pretty reasonable in my last post, but if CCP is really balancing things based on Snakes, that's really, really, really stupid.
As many, many people have pointed out: Most of us don't run snakes, because most of us won't pay 3bn for some implants. Hello, CCP, wake up. If snakes are the issue, nerf snakes, not everything else. Seriously, come on.
If CCP gathers anything from this thread, they need to gather that fact. Snake pilots are like 1% of all HAC pilots, but again I wouldn't know because hey no statistics on it.
And again, figuring anything out based on T2 rigs and a snake set is idiocy.
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:13:00 -
[689]
don't worry guys. Last time a developer got this defensive, it was zulupark and the carriers, and we all know how quickly those changes went thr- oh wait.
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Ikoras
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:13:00 -
[690]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful.
It's nothing like that at all. It's more like preparing for a hurricane after the news gave warning.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:13:00 -
[691]
holy crap i agree with a PL and goons... CCP you F'ed this up bad... webbies are the things that need a boost
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:13:00 -
[692]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Unless there's an Arazu in the enemy's gang. Then you'll sit still and die. Wonderful act of balancing.
Dear sir, now you die when there is huggin rapier in gang, with far greater range on T1 than faction ( domination! ) fitted arazu
Dear clueless alt, a web is not a scram. If you're webbed outside scramrange currently, you can warp off. The wonderful new Arazu does the job of the minmatar recon AND the gallente recon. Way to make ships obsolete. CCP sure knows their stuff.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:13:00 -
[693]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Looks balanced to me. 4km/sec is more than fast enough
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:14:00 -
[694]
What is the trick ? I will say it. If u not using mwd, the Caldari ship will hit u. If nothing using MWD the Caldari shield tank will be working. Simple.
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qRTA Over
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:14:00 -
[695]
Thks CCP , finally there will be some use for my arazu
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Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:15:00 -
[696]
[Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
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Tob'ias Sjodin
Organized Crime Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:15:00 -
[697]
Originally by: Elmicker don't worry guys. Last time a developer got this defensive, it was zulupark and the carriers, and we all know how quickly those changes went thr- oh wait.
I sure hope you're right. But I fear you're not.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[698]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Hold on. You gonna break not only the matari recons, EAS and the claymore but also the vaga with the muninn allready pretty bad??
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[699]
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
You have access to the CCP internal test server to get those number post nano nerf?
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Medore
Total Mayhem.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[700]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
lol
|
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Darkmist Starpain
The Serpent Isle
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
A smack from CCP's Nerfbat.
And for some content: Whoever came up with this stupid idea of changing this and that and everything in between to try and fix an imaginary problem that in reality does not excist is a moron. If it goddamn ain't broken you do NOT need to fix it. And it ain't broken/borked/overpowered). |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[702]
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
^ that speed is currently the problem with the vaga
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Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[703]
i like most changes except the webs one, which will make hugin/rapier significantly weaker. i would actulaly change webs to 70-80, and cive tackling inties 10-15-20 % bonus to scram, and leave old 5% to distupt. about dual working. well ccp iontroduced scripst, so why not use iot here? 2 points str or mwd dissable... (i would love a mwd disable script in Hictor >_> the deat of the nanogangs:P )
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Elmicker don't worry guys. Last time a developer got this defensive, it was zulupark and the carriers, and we all know how quickly those changes went thr- oh wait.
Yeah but these are all knee-jerk reactions to CCP's exhausting 5 hour discussion of options! Not like last time at all! ---
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:17:00 -
[705]
Edited by: Dez Affinity on 25/07/2008 16:23:36
Originally by: "DevBlog" Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds?
This is blatant lies, a standard t2 Inty(without polys) will reach the speeds of a Vaga(with polys) and a faction mwd quite easily, for 1/20th of the price. Since EVERYBODY uses high grade snakes, a proper faction fit crow with snakes will go 19km/s and a proper faction fit vaga with snakes will go 12km/s. Now these speeds are really high, but they also costs billions. Billions of isk that is easily removed by 1 guy in a rapier and a damage ship.
] Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
lol, Overdrives stack with Aux. Even with snakes that thing is only going 8km/s, easily matched by a t2 inty with gisti b type mwd or overloaded mwd. Also t2 auxilliary? wat. You sir are drunk. _______________
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:17:00 -
[706]
I thought I'd just post my "lol" here.
Man, these comments are priceless.
Priceless, I say.
Good on you CCP. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:17:00 -
[707]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
This is a pretty horrible argument, EVE was a totally different game back then, less players, pre-NOS-nerf, pre-ECM-nerf, pre-whatever else nerf. Or do you mean to say that you're bringing those back now? Small roaming gangs back then worked because there were other powerful tools available for smaller gangs, now as it is nano is one of the few remaining options for a small roaming gang to avoid running into a vastly superior force and dying immediately.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
The only time in the past when anything actually changed from CCP:s own supposedly Dev-blog "idea" to what actually went on Tranquility was when THEoneTHATshallBEunnamed suggested some ridiculous carrier-changes, and the only reason it got changed was because of overwhelming criticism BEFORE THEY WERE IMPLEMENTED ON SISI. You're telling me that your coders will make all these changes on SiSi only to have to revamp them because of eg. a week of testing? Once it hits Sisi it's obviously gone through a chain of decisionmaking and player-feedback from the "in general 'you'" is mostly PR-nonsense (akin to CSM-influence).
We object because we like this game and wish it not to go south like so many other MMO:s that changed because the devs catered to those who whined too much from the get-go. You have a working game-mechanic, and as the old saying goes: If it's not broken, don't fix it.
I was writing my first responsible epic rant of the thread then found someone did it for me in my exact words... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
SengH
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:17:00 -
[708]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Are you seriously telling us that you rebalanced the mods around everyone having a full snake set? If so can we have an ETA on when tanks are balanced around slave/crystal sets too?
|
|
CCP Dionysus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:17:00 -
[709]
Originally by: Heartstone
So umm no offense but can we have an answer to them rather than answering the flippant ones please? Such as my question about how you are going to test the wide ranging implications of a change like this when you need the numbers to do so which simply aren't ever going to be available on SISI?
None taken at all.
Yes, the design and testing of these changes has already taken a lot of time and arguments here in CCP. But the range of testing has mainly been done to see that ships are balanced in speed and still able to be hit by appropriate weapon types, so most tests have involved small numbers of ships with very mixed weapon setups.
eg, Crow with speed setup vs a harp at extreme range, vs a kestrel with light missiles, and vs a drone boat using light drones. - or a vagabond vs a set of cruisers using turrets, missiles, and med drones to try to hit it etc. The ships have been balanced so far so that frigate sized ships can, with fitting, hit any other frigate sized ship, same for cruisers and battleships.
We are not sure about the final impact of things like the additional MWD disable effect of scramblers (just that it works and so far seems to give balanced results)
We have a month of time on Sisi to get play tests with more numbers. We would like to see some tests like a gatecamp setup, or a close in brawl, or an attempt at a hit/run attack. The things that are going on sisi need further playtesting and balancing - the values that have been given are not final and will be changed according to how the playtests go.
From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them, but now an enemy that knows to expect "nano ships" will be able to have a serious effect, rather than just scaring them away.
|
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:18:00 -
[710]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus eg, Crow with speed setup vs a harp at extreme range, vs a kestrel with light missiles, and vs a drone boat using light drones. - or a vagabond vs a set of cruisers using turrets, missiles, and med drones to try to hit it etc.
Would you like to rent my JCB? It digs faster that that shovel.
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:18:00 -
[711]
what kind of eve do devs play? speed is quite ok as it is now
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:18:00 -
[712]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Yeah but these are all knee-jerk reactions to CCP's exhausting 5 hour discussion of options! Not like last time at all!
Whoah well if they spent 5 hours on it i guess we're all just being obtuse and whiny. guys, everyone back down. CCP must be right.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:18:00 -
[713]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
This is the dumbest shit I've seen BY FAR.
EVER.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 -
[714]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 25/07/2008 16:19:18 As an Illuminati has stated, this'll put PvP back to where it was, yet, he thinks this is a bad thing.
Before the advent of rigs and nanoing, there was variety:
There were solo pvp'ers all around. Gank megathrons trying to grab a ship or two.
Small gang had a diverse array of ships, from BS's to frigs and inty's.
People scouted a system before they entered it.
People engaged other small gangs and there were (gasp!) losses on both sides.
There was fun to be had at every level, and yes, there were blobs. There will always be blobs, its the whole concentrating firepower thing. But taknig away an OP tactic will not force people back into blobs, it'll force them to use other ships, and maybe focus on (OMG NO WAY) traditional tanking or ganking.
In fact, when's the last time you've seen a tank or gank setup not get laughed at?
Im appalled that the nano-brats cant see the error of their ways. ----------------- Friends Forever |
KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 -
[715]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
^ that speed is currently the problem with the vaga
Originally by: http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/heavyassaultships/minmatar/11999.asp
vagabond Vagabond Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 -
[716]
I've re-read the blog and am thinking it's an epic troll. But when that CCP Whateverdev posted the new vaga setup to break 4km I'm now convinced it's a troll... It has to be... Please be... |
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 -
[717]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Yeah but these are all knee-jerk reactions to CCP's exhausting 5 hour discussion of options! Not like last time at all!
Whoah well if they spent 5 hours on it i guess we're all just being obtuse and whiny. guys, everyone back down. CCP must be right.
And you really think there was just one meeting ever?
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 -
[718]
Is it allowed to petition a DEV for trolling ???
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General Brusilov
Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:20:00 -
[719]
The vast majority of nano folk don't use snakes or t2 rigs. Try posting speed numbers using rogues, t2 mods, and t1 rigs. Dionysus, if you honestly think your setup is what most people use, you shouldn't have any say in this.
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:20:00 -
[720]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 25/07/2008 16:21:44 Nano-gangs in 0.0 have become silly. They basically roam with impunity and it means crazy high skilled players with a boatload of cash have a guaranteed win leaving other players with the only option to dock. When a ship is going 13,000ms nothing is going to hit it and it simply drifts out of range when dual webbed.. that's just broken. Now that eve is getting a little older there are SO many people with that amount of skill and cash, all you see is nano gangs. This reduces combat to almost 0. They gank.. someone dies.. the rest hide.. repeat. Thats not really all that fun. Well.. it might be for the nano gang.. but even then.. doesn't it get boring? I'd rather a challenge... i'd like to see more cruiser/af/inty mixed gangs rather than a bunch of HACs/RECONS.
Boost to AFs is LONG in coming. Can't wait for that.
For your own edification, I have compiled the dev blogs graph into an overview making it a bit easier to see where the changes will be: New and Old Speed chart
Lastly I have to say, "Called it!": The Gate Camp - Nano Ship Down! The Gate Camp - Main Page ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:21:00 -
[721]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Looks balanced to me. 4km/sec is more than fast enough
Tech 2 rigs, 3b worth of modules.
WHAT?
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:21:00 -
[722]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 25/07/2008 16:19:18 As an Illuminati has stated, this'll put PvP back to where it was, yet, he thinks this is a bad thing.
Before the advent of rigs and nanoing, there was variety:
There were solo pvp'ers all around. Gank megathrons trying to grab a ship or two.
Small gang had a diverse array of ships, from BS's to frigs and inty's.
People scouted a system before they entered it.
People engaged other small gangs and there were (gasp!) losses on both sides.
There was fun to be had at every level, and yes, there were blobs. There will always be blobs, its the whole concentrating firepower thing. But taknig away an OP tactic will not force people back into blobs, it'll force them to use other ships, and maybe focus on (OMG NO WAY) traditional tanking or ganking.
In fact, when's the last time you've seen a tank or gank setup not get laughed at?
Im appalled that the nano-brats cant see the error of their ways.
Jesus Christ could you be anymore stupid? Eve will never be what it was 4 years ago. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Nestor X85
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:21:00 -
[723]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Drunk posting ftl...
|
Lil'Bunneh FoFo
Uranus Assault Team
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:21:00 -
[724]
!Notify - You are unable to nano because you have been crapped on by CCP
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:22:00 -
[725]
Edited by: Entelechia on 25/07/2008 16:21:49
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
^ that speed is currently the problem with the vaga
An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:22:00 -
[726]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful. Some of the comments in here have been interesting and useful, others not so much. thats what "grain of salt" is all about. If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
Does anyone at CCP learn anything. Does the SWISS ARMY KNIFE OF EVE mean anything to you? Did the 5 fighters for a carrier really need to hit SISI for us to realize how stupid it was? Its extremely arrogant and quite unbelieveable that you still are going to say, "try it out on SiSi, you won't really know till you try" After all the years of PVPing thru different nerfs and changes, you can't believe that people would be able to look at what you wrote and instantly detect fail by the dumptruck loads?
Bottom line, that stupid poast has now trumped Carriers:The Swiss Army Knife of Eve, and we now have replaced one ridciulous Dev with another. Way to rotate the fail in Iceland.
And BTW Dionysus, I couldn't have proved my theory about CCP Dev's using EFT to figure out changes to game mechanics any better than your full snake set. Bravo chap you clearly fall into the "give them enough rope to hang themselves with" routine. Full snake set braking 4k/s now thats GENIUS! Cause god knows, appartlety with all the divine references in the dev poast you all think you are the gods of this game, EVERYONES GOT SNAKES. Theres a snake there, and a snake over there, oh look snakes it Jita, snakes EVERYWHERE... idiots.
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Lil'Bunneh FoFo
Uranus Assault Team
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:22:00 -
[727]
!Notify - You are unable to nano because you have been crapped on by CCP
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:22:00 -
[728]
Dear Nozh, please hear my plea in this enormous threadnaught.
1. Test these speed changes very carefully. You have already said too much. Rather than gently easing us into the idea of a nano-nerf, you have proposed nerfs for MWDs, webs, gang bonuses, modules, rigs, boosters, implants- EVERYTHING, ALL AT ONCE! When you do that, you don't sound like the careful, considerate devs I know you are. You sound like nutjobs. That was a bad move, and you've caused plenty of outrage, but it's too late to take it back.
2. Love of all that is pewtiful (it's a pun on beautiful, and pew, get it? Pew is beautiful... blah) do not level such absurd nerfs to webs and boosts to scrams. As written, you are simply making Rapiers completely worthless and Arazus the absolute pwnage ship of the future. If you are going to implement the (outrageous, stupid, and generally poorly thought out) idea of scrams stopping MWDs, they should at the very least level a percentage of effectiveness, not an instant turn-off. That's the kind of binary, on-or-off and static fighting that you nerfed webs to avoid.
ACK. YOU DUMMIES! THERE! I SAID IT!
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:23:00 -
[729]
I pretty much like the changes but it's changing the game completely. Incremental adjustments would have been less painful likely, pretty sure a completely imbalanced build will emerge from the deployment very shortly. Also I find it a bit late, people at last were learning to counters nano, even the Caldari militia fielded more ferox with guns in place of their stupid mission drakes, and heavy neuts were becoming a common sight.
Consequences that I see, beside slower ships :
Huge Falcon boost like it needed it (biggest danger for them was a nano recon or hac dropping drones on them while bumping).
Huge missile boost, one counter removed and none added.
Close range inty may not be 100% suicidal anymore, AF may be a bit more survivable.
Painter boost with web nerf.
Web nerf will mean smaller ship vs bigger ship will work a bit better, no more mega two volleying a thorax if the the thorax think of moving.
Fitting two webs and a disruptor (or one web one scram and a disruptor) a damn good idea now, Tempest and Hyperion stealth boost.
Only thing really bothering me is the Falcon boost. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine. |
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CCP Dionysus
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:23:00 -
[730]
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5 that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses. gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
same setup: 3334 m/s not sure on align time - but its about 9 sec at full speed when trying to turn about 180 deg
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:23:00 -
[731]
I DEMAND SHIELD TANKS TO BE BALANCED AROUND SHIPS WITH A BONUS TO BOOSTING + HG CRYSTALS AND T2 RIGS!
This is ******ed
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:23:00 -
[732]
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
Can catch it, but can't hold it down. At least not if the vaga pilot is halfway competent.
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:23:00 -
[733]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
And BTW Dionysus, I couldn't have proved my theory about CCP Dev's using EFT to figure out changes to game mechanics any better than your full snake set. Bravo chap you clearly fall into the "give them enough rope to hang themselves with" routine. Full snake set braking 4k/s now thats GENIUS! Cause god knows, appartlety with all the divine references in the dev poast you all think you are the gods of this game, EVERYONES GOT SNAKES. Theres a snake there, and a snake over there, oh look snakes it Jita, snakes EVERYWHERE... idiots.
OH NO THERE ARE SNAKES ON THE PLANE!!!
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zeho
Amarr DIVINE DIVIDE
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:25:00 -
[734]
SPEED PROPOSALS
If I may suggest an elegant and simple solution to the issues raised.
Hull Velocity Structural Integrity [HVSI / VSI]
+ Each Ship Hull has a new attribute "VSI" - this is the SOFT CAP velocity limit that the ship hull can safely attain.
+ Speeds over the VSI will result in damage to the ships Hull (the exact rate of damage can be discussed, maybe the rate increases with % over the VSI or maybe a constant rate) (maybe new type of damage control module designed to reduce hull damage from pushing over VSI, maybe just add additional attributes to existing Damage Controls.
+ Optional HARD CAP max velocity of xx% above VSI soft cap.
No need to tamper with so many modules (webbers, scrams, implants etc.) and you can see at a glance (from the ship info tab) what that hull class is capable of if pushed to and over the limit.
(sure to see more pilots fitting local & remote hull reppers for pvp ops) :)
Thanks for your kind attention.
-zeho
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parthon
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:25:00 -
[735]
haha
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:25:00 -
[736]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
This is on par with tackling freighters __________________
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Apsa1ar
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:25:00 -
[737]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
How do you develop a game you've never played? Mind-boggling.
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Keiko Kobayashi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:26:00 -
[738]
I really second CrumplecornÆs post (linkage).
Please spare my Deimosà it has done nothing wrong, flying at decent speeds, to get up close, not far away. It would suck bigtime if anyone with a warp disruptor could prevent me from ever getting into firing range. Fitting an AB is not an option either, because it would take me too long to get my glass cannon in range.
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Del Torres
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:26:00 -
[739]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Theres a snake there, and a snake over there, oh look snakes it Jita, snakes EVERYWHERE... idiots.
Sry can't resist here: You know, where are Badgers, there are Snakes ;)
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Apsa1ar
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:27:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
Snakes are a problem.
Polycarbs being better than T2 nanos are a problem.
I could accept stacking nanos with ODs and i-stabs.
Try these things first. Go part way, before fundamentally breaking the game for a lot of people.
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:27:00 -
[741]
Lets see: Matar race after this: rupture,hurricane,braodsword,interceptors
Bad: bs caps
useless: recon hac
How about caldari missileships that always hit. After patch drakes will be hac pown mobiles. T2 rigs cost like 500mln in your vega setup+snakes 4b so ncie to be kiled in fully insurable drake isnt it?
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:27:00 -
[742]
I like this change simply because it has all the illuminati all crying their eyes out on the first page, I'll stilll be able to rock on in my arbitrator so whateva
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dojocan81
Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:28:00 -
[743]
omg ... they'll nerf nano
now i have to fit like everyone else a shield or armor tank instead my OD's and polys !!111
good luck on that
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:28:00 -
[744]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
Can catch it, but can't hold it down. At least not if the vaga pilot is halfway competent.
What? Have you heard of a stasis webifier? Or warp disruptors? I've caught and locked down Vagabonds in my Stiletto many times, and then let my gang obliterate them once they were slowed down. Just because you haven't figure out how it works doesn't mean the rest of us haven't.
Nice...a 2k/s nerf, that's brilliant CCP. A ship, without snakes involved, just got nerfed 2k/s because snakes are overpowered. Brilliant design work CCP, brilliant.
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Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:28:00 -
[745]
This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Murder Patrol
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:28:00 -
[746]
HEY CCP!! Why not just nerf the snake set and t2 poly's..... that would keep the ******ed speeds down
Logic!
You nerf speeds, as if everyone fly's with a full snake set and t2 poly's.. that's not the case, but it will be after these nerf's! That my friend is the result of this.
So ok these nerf's will crash the t2 poly and the snake market, making it affordable and necessary to buy and fly with them.
Wouldn't it be more logical to just nerf the thing you are trying to actually stop.
I guess you're counter argument here would be that if you did what I suggest, then the prices of t2 poly's and full snake sets would drop and more people would get in them.
OK then why dont you nerf the market somehow through say the materials to create these items so that they become MORE expensive and that cost/loss ratio will become even greater and LESS players will use them.
HOLY HELL I THINK WE SOLVED THE NERF.
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[747]
Originally by: Apsa1ar
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
Snakes are a problem.
Polycarbs being better than T2 nanos are a problem.
I could accept stacking nanos with ODs and i-stabs.
Try these things first. Go part way, before fundamentally breaking the game for a lot of people.
I would accept these changes as well, but the current proposed changes are just silly and heavy handed. Rather than fixing the problem, they are trying to look edgy and progressive by basically breaking several ships.
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super bomberman
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[748]
So are you gona be changing black ops, assault frigs, more than 50 ppl in local lag, projectile weapons, sensor damps, cynojammers, etc ect with the upcomming patch(s)?
coz
like
there is stuff that actually realy needs fixing |
Doctor Happyface
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[749]
These changes are welcome, indeed!
I will now immediately cease the training of Gallente Cruisers IV, and resume learning how to pilot the most action-packed ship in the game, the Raven.
At least the money I saved for a Megathron can go to learning missile combat, or its lesser known, yet more hilarious cousin, ***** bombardment.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[750]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 25/07/2008 16:19:18 As an Illuminati has stated, this'll put PvP back to where it was, yet, he thinks this is a bad thing.
Before the advent of rigs and nanoing, there was variety:
There were solo pvp'ers all around. Gank megathrons trying to grab a ship or two.
Small gang had a diverse array of ships, from BS's to frigs and inty's.
People scouted a system before they entered it.
People engaged other small gangs and there were (gasp!) losses on both sides.
There was fun to be had at every level, and yes, there were blobs. There will always be blobs, its the whole concentrating firepower thing. But taknig away an OP tactic will not force people back into blobs, it'll force them to use other ships, and maybe focus on (OMG NO WAY) traditional tanking or ganking.
In fact, when's the last time you've seen a tank or gank setup not get laughed at?
Im appalled that the nano-brats cant see the error of their ways.
Jesus Christ could you be anymore stupid? Eve will never be what it was 4 years ago.
Yea it will. Sure you'll have hot drops and such, but at least we wont have tards zipping around with impunity, choosing their fights.
That's ccp's biggest beef, aholes who are able to fly away if it turns sour. This'll ensure more balance and uniqueness of fits, like it was 3 years ago.
Where your tard friend Dungar Loghoth wasnt finished with his specialness yet. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[751]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5 that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses. gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
same setup: 3334 m/s not sure on align time - but its about 9 sec at full speed when trying to turn about 180 deg
then if this goes live.... Minmatar is the most useless race ingame.
you have taken alpha strikes from them you taken speed from them you have taken EW ships from them you have taken closerange damage dealing ships from them
so what does that leave.... not much tbh
CCP is on the path of the same FAIL that have seen the end of MANY MANY other good MMOs
---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:29:00 -
[752]
I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[753]
wow 27 pages and rising .. in 6 hours.. guess it's the subject eh..
Well i suppose at least you guys are thinking about it. The problem now seems to be that you want to have ceptors as the main tackler units. While that is obviously what they were designed for being the first t2 ships you ever made available, eve today has too many ceptor killers to made this work.
Hacs in particular, but also some other ship/set up combo's are lethal, not to mention curses (any word on a pilgrim change yet?), rapier/huginn and all ecm in the field. Making bubbles smaller will only annoy people further tbh, it's not like any fleet sniper set up won't fit a mwd anyway..
Slapping the nerf bat on polycarbs was sorely needed (yet so many juicy nerf bat targets remain) as are almost all pirate implant sets (not just the snake's thnx) in need of some toning down.
The main problem I have when reading the blog is it seems you guys are mostly concerned with the upper limit of speed. Faction fittings, snake set, shaqil, ganged and overheated. I agree that is a problem, but every ceptor pilot that learns (all but caldari) hacs can reach absurd t2 speeds (and regularly does) even with the simple boni.. Ishtar, Zealot, Vagabond and that's just the easy ones. Throw in some recons for good measure. That's the main problem, if every nano kill would drop a pilot 2B isk, then so be it, but the fact is now you can get over drone/missile speed pretty well with just t2 and t1 rigs. The rigs being the most expensive..
The scrambler change, I dunno, don't really like it.. you already get the extra point bonus, less cap, easier fit and you wanna give it mwd stopping power? I'll be buying some faction range scramblers tonite just to be sure, sounds good .. seriously, again, to use these the tackler needs to be close, web range close, which means if you want to have ceptor tacklers, they die horribly.. This is a silly option tbh, make it so that a mwd gives the speed boost of an afterburner on any warp point, disruptor of scrambler (heck bubbles too why not :P), then you're talking.
Dropping the web effectiveness won't help much, and web drones.. seriously doubtful to begin with, start by making small and medium versions of em, then we'll talk.
I'll be testing too, see you guys there :)
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[754]
Originally by: Apsa1ar
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
Snakes are a problem.
Polycarbs being better than T2 nanos are a problem.
I could accept stacking nanos with ODs and i-stabs.
Try these things first. Go part way, before fundamentally breaking the game for a lot of people.
Agreeing with the Goon on this one, all the way.
Click me! You know you want to... |
The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[755]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them
In all seriousness, what is the difference now? What ships besides the rapier are, in practice, going to be able to kill a nano ship?
Seems as tho you are breaking one of your utopian laws here, speed can STILL only kill speed.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS
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clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[756]
More entertaining than 'The Dark Knight'..
Holy expanding thread....
-------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Oncely Magnanimous
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[757]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5 that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses. gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
same setup: 3334 m/s not sure on align time - but its about 9 sec at full speed when trying to turn about 180 deg
please put the following implants into the picture: Rogue AY-1, CY-1, GY-1, and MY-1
full grade snake sets are stupidly expensive, and with the current mechanics, overpowered. midrange Rogues are more commonly use and in my opinion, reasonably effective.
T2 rigs won't get used.
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BuIIseye
Amarr Pax Amarria Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:30:00 -
[758]
Originally by: Veldya
Originally by: BuIIseye
Missile boats get a stealth boost, because missiles don't need tracking (Drake's/Cerb's/Raven's + Arazu's combo is the new FOTM for medium sized gangs).
Yeah, because hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage doesn't need fixing, does it? Missiles didn't need a stealth boost, they needed a loud freaking bandwagon boost.
Missile damage is reduced based on speed and target painters don't really help because they don't address the speed element while you have more options to improve the tracking difficulties.
No, you missunderstand, hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage because of the speed is the same as missing with gun's and drone not having enough speed to keep up with it's target. Now with the MWD being "nerfed", afterburning ships will still be able to elude guns with the use of tracking disruptors (even while webbed), while missiles will reach and hit for full damage anytime, everytime (because defenders don't work as they should and smartbombs are fairly rare in non-capital combat and don't brush off all incoming missiles)
While it may not be a big difference on paper, its a increase in effectiveness on the field, so basicaly missile ships > the rest, and alot of people will start training for caldari. Missile boats are already very good, just underestimated because not all the people that uses them know what they are doing.
And target painter isn't specific for missile boats only, nor is it the solution for missile boats against nanoship, ever tried webbing your target?
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:31:00 -
[759]
Originally by: Dianabolic I thought I'd just post my "lol" here.
Man, these comments are priceless.
Priceless, I say.
Good on you CCP.
"As long as it doesn't interfere with what we do, we don't care what direction CCP takes the game".
Good on you Dianabolic, I would have been surprised if you posted anything else. ---
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:31:00 -
[760]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Apsa1ar
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
Snakes are a problem.
Polycarbs being better than T2 nanos are a problem.
I could accept stacking nanos with ODs and i-stabs.
Try these things first. Go part way, before fundamentally breaking the game for a lot of people.
Agreeing with the Goon on this one, all the way.
For the love of god. Me too
---
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FiremanSam
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:31:00 -
[761]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
wut
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:31:00 -
[762]
Originally by: Noelle Fay This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts
You people are ******ed, the vaga setup and all the setups were what they used to chart the graphs. They just provided a base for every ship, and not something realistic.
If you want to throw everything on the ship, sure, it'll go faster. But they just provided a base bonus to the MWD to chart the data. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Royal Ace
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:32:00 -
[763]
the only thing which is good is that the scramblers can turn off mwd's. everything else is to hard.
You said you want to stop nanos. But why you wanna nerv webbers?
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Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:32:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts
You people are ******ed, the vaga setup and all the setups were what they used to chart the graphs. They just provided a base for every ship, and not something realistic.
If you want to throw everything on the ship, sure, it'll go faster. But they just provided a base bonus to the MWD to chart the data.
WTF stop posting. I was talking about the t2 rigs + full snake vaga, not CCP using only t2 mwds for the charts.
Dammit learn to read -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:33:00 -
[765]
i gave him a cookie cutter setup (standard)
it now goes 3400m/s instead of 5400m/s.
that 2k m/s obviously is not important in the general scheme of things.
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Lithia Tsanov
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:33:00 -
[766]
Dear CCP,
Here's a better nerf for ya.
Exceeding 5k damages your ship (dmg/sec scales linearly with speed >5k). Most nanos don't pack a repper.
or
Add a "max velocity" for each ship. Dmg begins when this velocity is exceeded.
LT
What is an OTAL? |
parthon
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:33:00 -
[767]
ha ha
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Velvet69
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:33:00 -
[768]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Excellent job of proving just how out of touch you are with the game.
You also say that a lot of these initial 'knee jerk' reactions will be taken with a pinch of salt, but just how 'knee jeck' is it to base your proposals on the assumption all nanoers are all running around with max skills and billions of isk worth of implants / hardwires fitted.
Implants
* Pirate Implants - Snake - 53.63% velocityBonus * Shaqil's speed enhancer - 8% speedFactor * Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' MY-2 - 5% speedFactor
Those Implants are the huge exception to the rule, I can safelly say I've never flown with a pilot with that lot fitted.
Yes I fly a nano ship and I love it. I get to fight out numbered and there isnt any greater rush in the game for me than that. Its exilerating and dangerous and yes I sometimes lose an expensive ship. But what else am I going to do for fun in this game? Camp gates and only fight when I'm in a gang twice the size of the opposition? Sorry, that just isnt my thing.
Anyway, I'm hoping that the extensive testing that I'm sure will go on on SiSi will show CCP that these proposals are a tad over the top and will result in a dilution of these proposals, as stated in the original dev blog : 'Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.'
o/
Velve
IXC Velvet69 Proud Member of 'The House of Prawn' |
Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:34:00 -
[769]
Edited by: Serilla on 25/07/2008 16:35:27
Originally by: The Mach
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them
In all seriousness, what is the difference now? What ships besides the rapier are, in practice, going to be able to kill a nano ship?
Seems as tho you are breaking one of your utopian laws here, speed can STILL only kill speed.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS
Missiles can kill speed (or make them run away) since they are going the same speed but the nano ship is going 2km/sec slower (in the case of t2) __________________
|
TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:34:00 -
[770]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
This has to be a troll, there's no way you're serious. "No special named modules"? Do you play the same game we do? You have t2 rigs and a FULL SNAKE SET. Do you seriously think the average player uses this currently? A current setup an average pilot has would have 2 T1 Polys and 2-3 Overdrives on a Vagabond, with no implants. Don't use for your "comparison testing" a T2 rigged, snaked character, which the average players also doesn't have. ----------------
|
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NerftheSmurf
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:34:00 -
[771]
A vaga fit with: 3x gyro/nano ii/od ii, 1x aux thruster i goes 4368 m/s w/o implants. What would this change to?
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:35:00 -
[772]
Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:39:32 Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:36:32
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I really don't appreciate well-thought out comments and constructive criticism being classed as 'knee-jerk'. It's actually a fairly disrespectful thing to say to someone who's put years of time into your product and who may very well be more familiar with certain play styles than yourself.
First off, Nozh's argument is extremely poor and he fails to offer any sort of reasoning for why small gang warfare (which was already not the most satisfying, fiscally rewarding, or easy play style) will NOT be seriously hampered by these changes. People's ability to avoid blobs and the like is critical to this play style... as anyone who has spent an hour in 0.0 in the past 6 months knows. Saying that small gang warfare existed before and implying that this patch won't 'finish it off' is simply idiotic. I used to enjoy CCP's developers for their candor and wit, and now I'm stuck putting up with stupidity and poorly articulated ideas. Please be simple and frank. WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING DONE TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE SMALL GANG WARFARE? WHAT INTRODUCED IN THIS PATCH WILL HELP 'FIGHT THE BLOB'?
I hope you'll excuse my complete lack of faith in CCP's ability to promote small gang warfare. The last 'small gang' action introduced in 0.0 was cynojammers and station services, I believe. Both of which require even bigger blobs to deal with. Is there ANYONE at CCP who actually cares about small gang warfare and has done ANY of it in the last 6 months? I implore you to discuss your changes with them, because for a large contingent of your playerbase, that is why we play this game.
I don't have a problem with a general speed nerf or balancing (especially assault ships) but completely changing the gang v. gang balance of EVE without considering small gang warfare seems idiot. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a good argument why what you're doing will ultimate small gang warfare, and/or what you CAN do to promote it.
Thank you. -----
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Banana Torres
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:36:00 -
[773]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
How about caldari missileships that always hit. After patch drakes will be hac pown mobiles. T2 rigs cost like 500mln in your vega setup+snakes 4b so ncie to be kiled in fully insurable drake isnt it?
See, this sums up totally why I ignore most posters on these forums.
You are comparing the pre nerf price of stuff with the post nerf performance of stuff.
After the nerf will snakes cost 4 billion or polycarbs 500 million? Nope. The flavour of the month boys will have moved on to something else. And pushed it to a stupid price.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:36:00 -
[774]
Originally by: Noelle Fay
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts
You people are ******ed, the vaga setup and all the setups were what they used to chart the graphs. They just provided a base for every ship, and not something realistic.
If you want to throw everything on the ship, sure, it'll go faster. But they just provided a base bonus to the MWD to chart the data.
WTF stop posting. I was talking about the t2 rigs + full snake vaga, not CCP using only t2 mwds for the charts.
Dammit learn to read
What page was that post referencing? I cant find it, just thought it was people blasting on teh graph's data. ----------------- Friends Forever |
facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:37:00 -
[775]
Originally by: TheAdj
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
This has to be a troll, there's no way you're serious. "No special named modules"? Do you play the same game we do? You have t2 rigs and a FULL SNAKE SET. Do you seriously think the average player uses this currently? A current setup an average pilot has would have 2 T1 Polys and 2-3 Overdrives on a Vagabond, with no implants. Don't use for your "comparison testing" a T2 rigged, snaked character, which the average players also doesn't have.
He's right, you know.
Devs and GMs playing a completely different game than we are have no business "rebalancing" anything, especially using a snaked pod and t2 rigs as the baseline. |
Dzajic
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:37:00 -
[776]
Edited by: Dzajic on 25/07/2008 16:39:56 And again.
Good ideas from patch notes:
Rebalancing ship base speeds. Increasing stacking penalties for ODs and polycarbons. Might be the only thing needed to balance nanoes. Full support. Nerfing Snakes... 56% to speed maybe was too much, but the nerf might be to hard. Those things do cost billions. Capping all MWDs to 500%. OKish. MWD reactivation time. Also THE thing to balance nano setups. Excellent.
These things together would be the doom of crazy nanosetups and speed problems. Perhups even forcing ships with bonus to a specific kind of tank to use that tank.
Web changes, MWD scramb interaction... Horrible, horrible horrible :( Completely changes a lot of basic EVE combat mechanics around which ships were designed and balanced over years.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:37:00 -
[777]
Originally by: Kery Syander Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:36:32
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I really don't appreciate well-thought out comments and constructive criticism being classed as 'knee-jerk'. It's actually a fairly disrespectful thing to say to someone who's put years of time into your product and who may very well be more familiar with certain play styles than yourself.
First off, Nozh's argument is extremely poor and he fails to often any sort of reasoning for why small gang warfare (which was already not the most satisfying, fiscally rewarding, or easy play style) will NOT be seriously hampered by these changes. People's ability to avoid blobs and the like which as anyone who has spent an hour in 0.0 in the past 6 months knows. Saying that small gang warfare existed before and implying that this patch won't 'finish it off' is simply idiotic. I used to enjoy CCP for their candor and wit, and now I'm stuck putting up with stupidity and poorly articulated ideas. Please be simple and frank. WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING DONE TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE SMALL GANG WARFARE? WHAT INTRODUCED IN THIS PATCH WILL HELP 'FIGHT THE BLOB'?
I hope you'll excuse my complete lack of faith in CCP's ability to promote small gang warfare. The last 'small gang' action introduced in 0.0 was cynojammers and station services, I believe. Both of which require even bigger blobs to deal with. Is there ANYONE at CCP who actually cares about small gang warfare and has done ANY of it in the last 6 months? I implore you to discuss your changes with them as for a large contingent of us, that is why we play this game.
I don't have a problem with a general speed nerf or balancing (especially assault ships) but completely changing the gang v. gang balance of EVE without considering small gang warfare seems idiot. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a good argument why what you're doing will ultimate small gang warfare, and/or what you CAN do to promote it.
Thank you.
All Im seeing is kneejerk. None of you have tested it yet you're all chiming in. I've only seen one post where the person is "I dont like what Im seeing, but I'll hold off till sisi" ----------------- Friends Forever |
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:37:00 -
[778]
Originally by: Euriti I DEMAND SHIELD TANKS TO BE BALANCED AROUND SHIPS WITH A BONUS TO BOOSTING + HG CRYSTALS AND T2 RIGS!
This is ******ed
I can tank 10k dps in a Golem with an officer fit and crystals.
Otherwise it's about 5k dps, more than a carrier. Nerf tbh. _______________
|
teji
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:37:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Apsa1ar
Originally by: Entelechia An even mildly correctly fit interceptor can catch that, so you're pretty dumb really.
It's obvious the problem is Snake implants, not nanos, not MWD's, not webs. It's 3bn ISK Snake implants. That's pretty funny. Leave it to CCP to come up with some whacked out, heavy handed change, to fix a problem that's so obvious it might as well have a neon sign pointing to it.
Snakes are a problem.
Polycarbs being better than T2 nanos are a problem.
I could accept stacking nanos with ODs and i-stabs.
Try these things first. Go part way, before fundamentally breaking the game for a lot of people.
This a thousand times this
|
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:38:00 -
[780]
My standard vaga setup is usually along the lines of:
10mn mwd II 1x od 1x nano, 3x gyro 2 ambit rigs.
It goes about 4300? with my skills, so now im look at what, 2k something? Theres no way id fly that in public. Looks like im gonna have to fly my sleip more :D At least with changes to web its almost impossible to stop someone from burning back to gate.
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:38:00 -
[781]
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
You meen back when eve had 6-7k players online? no rapiers and huginns and stuff like that? well yes roaming gangs were around back then as well, but the blobs were never this big and there were no titans/moms/carriers to worry about either.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
so to get a vaga to go above 4k you now need to spend 4bill on it????
Originally by: CCP Dionysus From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them, but now an enemy that knows to expect "nano ships" will be able to have a serious effect, rather than just scaring them away.
so now your basicly saying that killing nanos will be pretty easy, isnt that basicly the oposit of not nerfing Guerrilla warfare?? guerrilla warfare is about using hit and run tactics and it looks like your saying that it will be very easy to counter that now
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:38:00 -
[782]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts
You people are ******ed, the vaga setup and all the setups were what they used to chart the graphs. They just provided a base for every ship, and not something realistic.
If you want to throw everything on the ship, sure, it'll go faster. But they just provided a base bonus to the MWD to chart the data.
WTF stop posting. I was talking about the t2 rigs + full snake vaga, not CCP using only t2 mwds for the charts.
Dammit learn to read
What page was that post referencing? I cant find it, just thought it was people blasting on teh graph's data.
No, people were blasting on the fact that CCP's "test" Vagabond was a Vaga with T2 rigs and a full snake set: aka something that maybe 1% of the players in the game actually can afford. They are basing this entire nerf off the fact that 1% of the players in the game will run snakes and T2 rigs. Like many of us said: Brilliant design work.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:39:00 -
[783]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
How about caldari missileships that always hit. After patch drakes will be hac pown mobiles. T2 rigs cost like 500mln in your vega setup+snakes 4b so ncie to be kiled in fully insurable drake isnt it?
They removed the bumping effect on missiles a long time ago...
|
Eskalin
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:39:00 -
[784]
nerfing webbers is imo a bad idea. minmatar's other ew, the target painter is like the appendix of mods. with this change the webber might not join it but it's a big hit for a race who's primary weapon (projectiles) are already sub par. i doubt any dev will take this into consideration but I'm hoping they will
If babies weren't to be eaten they wouldn't be hibachi sized
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Daelan Lok'errt
SoT
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:39:00 -
[785]
I fail to see the logic in the argument behind the change. It's obvious that the modules and implants that give the most speed boost are very, very rarely used in the game, yet their existance is ground to nerf the common t2 modules somehow? I mean Pirate Implants - Snake - 53.63% velocityBonus Shaqil's speed enhancer - 8% speedFactor Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' MY-2 - 5% speedFactor that's like what, 2 bil? Domi\RepFleet MWD - 150mil?
How many players actually have them do you think? Have you actually considered it at all or just taken the pretty figures? It's not very common at all, let me tell you.
Overheating MWD - 50% speedFactor - you can only use it for about 4 cycles after that you have to turn it off or exit the fight.
"What’s more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed, and so on in a dreadfully unidirectional tipping of the scales." How so? People that know anything seem to manage just fine with webs, neuts and such. Besides what do you mean by countering? If holding off then I can assure you, you don't even need an afterburner for it, just a good tank. If you mean catch a fast ship, then how are your changes are going to alter the situation exactly?
"webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%." well, it's nice to see you nerf the main feature of the minmatar recons by 40%. I take it no other changes will be made to them thus rendering them next to useless?
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:39:00 -
[786]
I thought the speed hardcap ideas put forward were ******ed but when I see this, bring on hardcaps.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:40:00 -
[787]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kery Syander Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:36:32
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I really don't appreciate well-thought out comments and constructive criticism being classed as 'knee-jerk'. It's actually a fairly disrespectful thing to say to someone who's put years of time into your product and who may very well be more familiar with certain play styles than yourself.
First off, Nozh's argument is extremely poor and he fails to often any sort of reasoning for why small gang warfare (which was already not the most satisfying, fiscally rewarding, or easy play style) will NOT be seriously hampered by these changes. People's ability to avoid blobs and the like which as anyone who has spent an hour in 0.0 in the past 6 months knows. Saying that small gang warfare existed before and implying that this patch won't 'finish it off' is simply idiotic. I used to enjoy CCP for their candor and wit, and now I'm stuck putting up with stupidity and poorly articulated ideas. Please be simple and frank. WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING DONE TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE SMALL GANG WARFARE? WHAT INTRODUCED IN THIS PATCH WILL HELP 'FIGHT THE BLOB'?
I hope you'll excuse my complete lack of faith in CCP's ability to promote small gang warfare. The last 'small gang' action introduced in 0.0 was cynojammers and station services, I believe. Both of which require even bigger blobs to deal with. Is there ANYONE at CCP who actually cares about small gang warfare and has done ANY of it in the last 6 months? I implore you to discuss your changes with them as for a large contingent of us, that is why we play this game.
I don't have a problem with a general speed nerf or balancing (especially assault ships) but completely changing the gang v. gang balance of EVE without considering small gang warfare seems idiot. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a good argument why what you're doing will ultimate small gang warfare, and/or what you CAN do to promote it.
Thank you.
All Im seeing is kneejerk. None of you have tested it yet you're all chiming in. I've only seen one post where the person is "I dont like what Im seeing, but I'll hold off till sisi"
How is your "YES THIS IS GREAT THIS IS JUST THE FIX WE NEED" any less of a knee-jerk than people saying it's too much of a nerf?
You're god damn stupid. ---
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Soyemia
Minmatar Art of War
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:41:00 -
[788]
RIP vagabond
Can you rething the role of minmatar ships now or what? I want straight dev responce what minmatar is supposed to do when we got no speed. What??!?!?!?!?! Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:41:00 -
[789]
[Ares, Speed] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
ok, now that my vaga goes 3.4k what does the tackler on my vaga go at?
note: this is not a t2 crow, this is an ares, which are more common as cheap tacklers
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:41:00 -
[790]
WTF is this for REAL?
Do the devs even play anymore?
Are these the same Dev's who think there is no lag in EVE?
Honestly CCP why are you trying to make the Blob bigger?
The game DOES NOT WORK IN LARGE NUMBERS !!!
Why do you want to remove the only fun left in Eve, small fast roaming gangs?
I STRONGLY suggest some of the Dev's spend a weekend with the Legion, we do it all, and they can honestly see what EVE is currently REALLY about, and no what they imagine.
This is as stupid as the carrier nerf and removing shuttles off market.
Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !! |
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:41:00 -
[791]
Dionysius, How do you see the webbing change affecting the tracking of turret ship DPS (like blasters!) compared to the DPS of missiles?
Would you consider perhaps adding some halfway house module between an AB and a MWD that perhaps does 250% - 300% speed bonus at a 200-300% sig radius penalty?
|
The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:42:00 -
[792]
Edited by: The Mach on 25/07/2008 16:42:52 What about a (high slot) module that has a much longer range(25-28k) like a scram but doesn't instanly stop the microwarpdrive but starts to dmag the module.
The longer the nano ship sticks around the more danger hes getting into.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:43:00 -
[793]
Originally by: Entelechia
No, people were blasting on the fact that CCP's "test" Vagabond was a Vaga with T2 rigs and a full snake set: aka something that maybe 1% of the players in the game actually can afford. They are basing this entire nerf off the fact that 1% of the players in the game will run snakes and T2 rigs. Like many of us said: Brilliant design work.
Its because the reasons they claim they are doing this nerf for are totally invalid unless you use the t2 poly + snake (4 bil setup) example.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:43:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Entelechia
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Noelle Fay This will become the longest thread on the forums. I can tell.
Oh and it has been said a hundred times, but I'll make it a hundred and one:
Dio, your vaga setup is so unrealistic and fail it hurts
You people are ******ed, the vaga setup and all the setups were what they used to chart the graphs. They just provided a base for every ship, and not something realistic.
If you want to throw everything on the ship, sure, it'll go faster. But they just provided a base bonus to the MWD to chart the data.
WTF stop posting. I was talking about the t2 rigs + full snake vaga, not CCP using only t2 mwds for the charts.
Dammit learn to read
What page was that post referencing? I cant find it, just thought it was people blasting on teh graph's data.
No, people were blasting on the fact that CCP's "test" Vagabond was a Vaga with T2 rigs and a full snake set: aka something that maybe 1% of the players in the game actually can afford. They are basing this entire nerf off the fact that 1% of the players in the game will run snakes and T2 rigs. Like many of us said: Brilliant design work.
Ahhh, yea I agree with that.
But how much faster will the vagabond go in comparison with others? Sure, getting out of 20km will be a *****, but if you're in a small gang with some tankers, tacklers, and gank, then that vagabond will be darting around with teh same amount of survivability, albeit at 3km/s (normal setup).
As to the people complaining about guerrilla being dead: what kind of tactics are you refering to? Zipping around a large blob and taking out straglers? Or roaming around an enemies region and doing some ganks/small gang fights?
Cause honestly, the latter is still alive after the changes, most of ATF's gangs were non-nano and very successful.
As to the former, is that really an intended tactic? And is it still alive, yet with inty's?
----------------- Friends Forever |
Siri Blue
Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Souls of Vengeance
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:44:00 -
[795]
Why do you want to nerf around everything? Why not just reduce MWD speed bonus from 500% to 200%... All problems dealth with...(plus the webber nerf)
Re-Introduce Non-ISK-Mission rewards, please. |
Endeva
Caldari Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:44:00 -
[796]
****ing idiots i hope you all die of aids. ****ing ******s.
to all players that like the patch you can suck my **** ****ing ******s.
Eve needs changes asap |
Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:44:00 -
[797]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5 that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses. gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
same setup: 3334 m/s not sure on align time - but its about 9 sec at full speed when trying to turn about 180 deg
so really what your trying to say is not that you would like to balance speed, but instead your forcing us all to purchase t2 polycarbons and a full highgrade snake set with shaqils to continue using the same tactics.
This is clearly against everything you should be fighting against and will play directly INTO the hands of players such as myself with the sp and isk to purchase such things, and with the reduced webs these ships will become even more powerful and harder to kill... big rething needed.
Also the nerf against blaster boats is criminal (and i dont even fly one) were the ramifications of any of these decisions even considered for a second in what must have been an idea sketched on the back of a napkin on your coffee break.
Judging by this with speed being roughly 2/3rds and 30% nerf to stuff assuming 35% total speed reduction were still going to see 9k+ vagas with 50-60% webs on rapiers/huginns.. inty pilots wont be able to afford this list of mods due to there vulnerability when mounted on interceptors and scramblers mounted on lachesis to turn off there mwd's will be the next best weapon...
speaking from an epic nano*** point of view what you have done is increase the divide between the rich and the poor creating not a more balanced field but one entirely driven by isk... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Raquel Trotter
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:45:00 -
[798]
Originally by: Soyemia RIP vagabond
Can you rething the role of minmatar ships now or what? I want straight dev responce what minmatar is supposed to do when we got no speed. What??!?!?!?!?!
I would also like to see a GM's response to this. CCP, take a careful look at all the Minmatar ships and compare them to ships of the same class from other races. I'm not opposed to a speed nerf, but currently its the only advantage most Minmatar ships have.
Also in your tests on vagabonds, test how that ship would fair against a cheaper, insurable, easier to train for Drake. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:45:00 -
[799]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kery Syander Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:36:32
Originally by: CCP Dionysus This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)
I really don't appreciate well-thought out comments and constructive criticism being classed as 'knee-jerk'. It's actually a fairly disrespectful thing to say to someone who's put years of time into your product and who may very well be more familiar with certain play styles than yourself.
First off, Nozh's argument is extremely poor and he fails to often any sort of reasoning for why small gang warfare (which was already not the most satisfying, fiscally rewarding, or easy play style) will NOT be seriously hampered by these changes. People's ability to avoid blobs and the like which as anyone who has spent an hour in 0.0 in the past 6 months knows. Saying that small gang warfare existed before and implying that this patch won't 'finish it off' is simply idiotic. I used to enjoy CCP for their candor and wit, and now I'm stuck putting up with stupidity and poorly articulated ideas. Please be simple and frank. WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING DONE TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE SMALL GANG WARFARE? WHAT INTRODUCED IN THIS PATCH WILL HELP 'FIGHT THE BLOB'?
I hope you'll excuse my complete lack of faith in CCP's ability to promote small gang warfare. The last 'small gang' action introduced in 0.0 was cynojammers and station services, I believe. Both of which require even bigger blobs to deal with. Is there ANYONE at CCP who actually cares about small gang warfare and has done ANY of it in the last 6 months? I implore you to discuss your changes with them as for a large contingent of us, that is why we play this game.
I don't have a problem with a general speed nerf or balancing (especially assault ships) but completely changing the gang v. gang balance of EVE without considering small gang warfare seems idiot. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a good argument why what you're doing will ultimate small gang warfare, and/or what you CAN do to promote it.
Thank you.
All Im seeing is kneejerk. None of you have tested it yet you're all chiming in. I've only seen one post where the person is "I dont like what Im seeing, but I'll hold off till sisi"
How is your "YES THIS IS GREAT THIS IS JUST THE FIX WE NEED" any less of a knee-jerk than people saying it's too much of a nerf?
You're god damn stupid.
That's just as kneejerk. Like I said, all I'm seeing is kneejerk, didnt exclude my own kneejerk silly. ----------------- Friends Forever |
facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:46:00 -
[800]
You know, after all this discussion about speed in the CCP meeting, what about just axing snakes? Sure seems more prudent to me to screw over 1% of all HAC/inty users rather than screwing over 50% of all HAC/inty users.
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Scrapple
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:46:00 -
[801]
4KMS WITH IMPLANTS?!?!?! are you kidding? thats more than a 50% nerf!. My vaga does 7.3 right now with T2 and polycarbs. Not the fastest, but certainely, in my opinion " ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat."
Sorry guys, a 4kms Vaga is worthless.
You might as well give the vaga an armor bonus while you're at it, its gonna need it going that slow.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
The basic speeds in the 1k-3k/sec areas are basically untouched, in fact boosted in a few cases.
Its mainly the huge multipliers you get when combining large numbers of speed bonuses which used to get you to the 10-30km/sec speeds. They have been "nerfed".
So ships that are supposed to be "speedy" like the vaga will still be able to break 4 km/s?
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:46:00 -
[802]
It saddens me to see the devs in this game displaying a complete lack of knowledge of the game they have created. It saddens me further to show a distinct lack of respect for players from the 2004-2005 era that know way more about this game than the 2007-2008 caldari carebears that have whined so hard to get this nerf put in place. Many of these comments were well thought out with a lot of consideration, to just dismiss them as "kneejerk" is just plain insulting.
To quote Wrangler's sig, "It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." I think this just about sums up the dev attitude. WTG CCP, nerf all the fun out of your game so everyone gets bored of it and leaves, that makes business sense.
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:46:00 -
[803]
Originally by: NerftheSmurf A vaga fit with: 3x gyro/nano ii/od ii, 1x aux thruster i goes 4368 m/s w/o implants. What would this change to?
from what im seeing around 2800 give or take... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:46:00 -
[804]
Originally by: Asero [Ares, Speed] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
ok, now that my vaga goes 3.4k what does the tackler on my vaga go at?
note: this is not a t2 crow, this is an ares, which are more common as cheap tacklers
hitting 5k
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:47:00 -
[805]
I've gone over it again. This is all pretty rage inducing.
Two things which combined I have major issues with:
Reactivation delay on MWDs
MWD requires more than one cycle to get a BS up to full speed, this is going to sound the deathknell for conventional gangs caught in bubbles. Thanks CCP, you have just made 0.0 space even easier to defend! Also how is a Blastership going to effectively close a distance of >20km before he gets doneover by a Raven, Pulsegeddon, Tempest etc?
Warp scrams disabling MWD while maintaining their 'points'
Overpowered. You are effectively combining a 90% webber with a warp disruptor. No no no no.
Also I may haven been able to stomach this Dev Blog if the entire format hadn't been so condescending and patronising. You seek to bring balance and healthy discussion to this when you already seem pre biased against nanoship pilots.
My suggestions:
Increase cap use of MWDs but scrap reactivation delay
This makes permarunning less viable on the likes of the Ishtar and curse
Keep webs at current strength, reduce range slightly and allow scripts to be loaded
Double range for 50% strength still gives non nano'd ships a chance to close the gap for a split second with a bit of overload magic before switching scripts
Scrap proposed changes to warp scramblers
Instead give ships with Afterburners fitted an inherant resistance to webs. Assumption of Risk |
Mithrandir TFC
Gallente Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:47:00 -
[806]
This is almost as good as hate mails :)
Bring on the nano nerf!!
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Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:47:00 -
[807]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: CCP Nozh - Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
You meen back when eve had 6-7k players online? no rapiers and huginns and stuff like that? well yes roaming gangs were around back then as well, but the blobs were never this big and there were no titans/moms/carriers to worry about either.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
so to get a vaga to go above 4k you now need to spend 4bill on it????
Originally by: CCP Dionysus From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them, but now an enemy that knows to expect "nano ships" will be able to have a serious effect, rather than just scaring them away.
so now your basicly saying that killing nanos will be pretty easy, isnt that basicly the oposit of not nerfing Guerrilla warfare?? guerrilla warfare is about using hit and run tactics and it looks like your saying that it will be very easy to counter that now
some answers to this post would be great
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Alkie
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:47:00 -
[808]
To continue..
NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE NOT ALL HAC PILOTS HAVE SNAKE IMPLANTS AND A CLAYMORE
It blows my mind that you are going to nerf nano's, but at the same time NERF THE SHIP THAT IS THE BEST AT DEALING WITH THEM(rapier).
you really should just call this blog " f-ck minmatar "
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:47:00 -
[809]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 25/07/2008 16:49:13 "Addiction", from wikipedia:
"In medical terminology, addiction is a state in which the body relies on a substance for normal functioning and develops physical dependence. When this substance is suddenly removed, it will cause withdrawal, a characteristic set of signs and symptoms"
Best comment so far:
Gneeznow:
"I like this change simply because it has all the illuminati all crying their eyes out on the first page, I'll stilll be able to rock on in my arbitrator so whateva"
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:48:00 -
[810]
You know, we've been talking pretty much about inties and Vagas this whole time.
What about other nanocruisers? Curses, Zealots, Ishtars, Sacrileges, the works - how hard is this going to smack them?
I would find it pretty ironic if the people complaining about fighting only Vagas, Rapiers, Ishtars, and Zealots all the time only start to see Vagas.
Click me! You know you want to... |
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Kasheem Cetanes
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:48:00 -
[811]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Are you trolling? I mean not to sound like a jerk, but are you serious? Really? Don't Worry! you only need to spend a Billion ISK, inorder to make your vaga go... 4k... you're awful.
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kublai
Caldari Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 -
[812]
Haven't sifted through all the posts yet, just wanted to congratulate CCP on using their heads on this dev blog.
Some of your features are very nice, I love that you don't try to nerf my crow...too hard.
But that you seem honestly open to suggestions is good in my mind.
The two things I personally want to point out are these:
1. Warp scramblers
You just made one HELL of a buff to gallente recons (which is fine by me, I began training gall cruiser V last week and I already have recon V, more imba kublai!)
2. Snake set changes
why do you hate my wallet and my lg-snake clone *sniff* I think the penalty here is a little too harsh, these are VERY expensive clones and speaking as a guy who can not only track todays nano ships with his heavy pulse laser II but has recon V and quite a few rapiers in his hangar, they are a risk to equip, that the HG one can cause problems I get, but the LG one is balanced fine as it is, i'd rather see you make snakes useless to a ship such as the ishtar/zealot than nerf the snakes themselves, perhaps nerfing the HG one a little not too much but, take some of the edge off and balance the ships so that investing in snakes for an ishtar/zealot becomes a poor investment.
Anyways, hope you're honest about wanting to listen to the player base on this, your ideas are in the right direction, but it's not the solution, I feel the solution is near with some tweaking though.
A-War Recruiting |
Asero
Lilium Venture Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 -
[813]
Edited by: Asero on 25/07/2008 16:51:42
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Ares, Speed] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
ok, now that my vaga goes 3.4k what does the tackler on my vaga go at?
note: this is not a t2 crow, this is an ares, which are more common as cheap tacklers
hitting 5k
alright the base speed on that was about 7km originally, now its at 5km, so nothing crazy then.
now,
[Crow, Gistii B speedcrow] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gistii B-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher, Sabretooth Light Missile 'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher, Sabretooth Light Missile 'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher, Sabretooth Light Missile [empty high slot]
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
can you tell me what said setup will go at, assume LG and HG snakes?
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 -
[814]
I wonder what would happen if they introduced an 'idea'-BLOG with a list of "ideas" that would:
1. Make so cruise missiles went at max 40km away from the ship and had the flight-time of torpedoes. 2. Removed 2 midslots from the Raven. 3. Made so missions in high-sec didn't drop any loot, and wrecks couldn't be salvaged. 4. Made so missions in high-sec gave 1/4:th of their current ISK-payouts. 5. Made so insurance on caldari ships was no longer possible. 6. Increased the mineral-cost on t2 heavy missile launchers. 7. Made SPR2's cost 10mil each (again by manipulating the BP-values). 8. Removed sentry guns from low-sec gates, and made so anyone could warp into anyone's mission anytime. 9. Made so that the falcon only could jam other caldari ships.
And in this devblog they said: "5 of us were sitting and discussing the carebear-problem, and these are some ideas we will introduce to Sisi on monday".
You think that any "Well look at it on Sisi before you make a judgment"-remarks would work against that onslaught of whines? Especially if some dev said "Well, I have a high-grade crystal set on this raven and it still tanks quite nicely".
Really, CCP. Get a hold of yourself and shake until whatever screw is lose falls out so you then can proceed to re-attach it properly.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 -
[815]
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
My nerdrage was getting to me a little after a couple of uninformed dev posts but this is what I wanted to say, spot on.
If there's one post CCP devs need to read in this thread and then have a think a little over the proposed changes, it's this one.
---
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Cota Senn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 -
[816]
OH MY. Day this happens is day I disable accounts.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[817]
Originally by: facialimpediment You know, after all this discussion about speed in the CCP meeting, what about just axing snakes? Sure seems more prudent to me to screw over 1% of all HAC/inty users rather than screwing over 50% of all HAC/inty users.
This would be fine with me even if they took my snakes and left me with nothing. I'll take a hit for the team if CCP doesn't **** over EVERYONE with these insane nerfs. ---
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Popperr
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[818]
So with these changes it seems like any battleship with cruise missiles, light drones and a heavy neut cant be tackled by less than three ships. What exactly do you think guerilla warfare is? Shooting Cyno jammers?
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[819]
This reminds me of Zulupark and the Raptor changes. Yes, something needed to be done. No, this is not how to do it. Take it one step at a time, instead of using a sledgehammer. |
Apsa1ar
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Kasheem Cetanes
Are you trolling? I mean not to sound like a jerk, but are you serious? Really? Don't Worry! you only need to spend a Billion ISK, inorder to make your vaga go... 4k... you're awful.
WTB: full snake set and 2 T2 auxiliary thruster rigs for 1B
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[821]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 25/07/2008 16:49:13 "Addiction", from wikipedia:
"In medical terminology, addiction is a state in which the body relies on a substance for normal functioning and develops physical dependence. When this substance is suddenly removed, it will cause withdrawal, a characteristic set of signs and symptoms"
Best comment so far:
Gneeznow:
"I like this change simply because it has all the illuminati all crying their eyes out on the first page, I'll stilll be able to rock on in my arbitrator so whateva"
I know, Im tickled pink wiht all this Illuminati. hate. ----------------- Friends Forever |
xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[822]
Edited by: xGRIMERx on 25/07/2008 16:52:07
Originally by: Sakura Nihil You know, we've been talking pretty much about inties and Vagas this whole time.
What about other nanocruisers? Curses, Zealots, Ishtars, Sacrileges, the works - how hard is this going to smack them?
I would find it pretty ironic if the people complaining about fighting only Vagas, Rapiers, Ishtars, and Zealots all the time only start to see Vagas.
Zealot and Sacrilege get boosted actually No more nano on ishtar for me... if that patchs comes live
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[823]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler I've gone over it again. This is all pretty rage inducing.
Two things which combined I have major issues with:
Reactivation delay on MWDs
The reactivation delay only comes into effect when the module turns off - ie, the modules will continue and cycle until you turn it off, run out of cap, or are scrambled.
Quote:
Warp scrams disabling MWD while maintaining their 'points' Overpowered. You are effectively combining a 90% webber with a warp disruptor. No no no no.
Might need to be looked at - I'm sure Nozh will appreciate the feedback next week.
Quote:
My suggestions:
Keep webs at current strength, reduce range slightly and allow scripts to be loaded
Double range for 50% strength still gives non nano'd ships a chance to close the gap for a split second with a bit of overload magic before switching scripts
Scripting webbers/warp disruptors might be cool.
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reivol
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[824]
That's the best dev blog since a very long time.
Thanks Nozh...
I see great ideas behind this and can't wait to see the changes on sisi.
For all of you whinning about this big nerf bat plesae note that : - today, speed tanking = no damage wether armor or shield tanking = reduced damage - today, speed = 99% chance of fleeing away a combat without countermesure.
The changes will only equilibrate this by making speed tank a real tank, i.e. reducing damage taken and by having a lot more uncertainty in the final ending of a fight...
These changes are most welcomed because they only can maintain the diversity of ships and fitting and fight in Eve Online which makes the fun in it... I don't think any of you want to have only nano gangs in PVP which is curently the way we were walking on ...
SO everyone, please rejoice and thank CCP for this great and bold change and let's hope the nerf bat will swing as much harder as it has pre-emptively on the Black Ops (and let's hope these latter to be quickly unerfed a little bit too :p)
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Soyemia
Minmatar Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:51:00 -
[825]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Ares, Speed] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
ok, now that my vaga goes 3.4k what does the tackler on my vaga go at?
note: this is not a t2 crow, this is an ares, which are more common as cheap tacklers
hitting 5k
So 3,4km/s going vaga will get ass****d Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
Lisa lopez
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:52:00 -
[826]
Sorry but i would be seriously ****ed off if these nerfs come into operation regarding snakes. How can u expect a pilot who invests in a full set of snakes only for them to be seriously nerfed to be happy with this? Its not as if u can take them off to sell! Ok, its understandable to nerf other modules as u can then have a say if u want to fit them or not but implants are different.
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:52:00 -
[827]
I don't mind the speed changes, though I disagree in thinking its a problem, I can see why they need to be balanced. Overall, some decent changes in general.
However, the short range scramblers turning off MWDs is pure bull. Don't break MWDs to make afterburners "competitive". This change alone cripples all uses of speed in the game. __________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:52:00 -
[828]
I do see 2 problems with the proposed changes, even if I am a fan of the overall nerf.
Snake implants have no need to be nerfed after all the other changes. MWD/Overdrive/Mass are all being decreased or altogether removed, and that alone should bring speed down to reasonable levels. Keep the snakes as they are to add a variety if people really wish to do the risk/reward concept, b/c they alone, will not unbalance speed the way it was before where not needing implants still gave insain speeds.
Afterburners are really getting no love. The only difference post patch would be that you'd need 2 mids dedicated to an AB and MWD to make them worthwhile. So keeping with the current proposed changes, I'll provide a more useful solution w/n the current bounds. All Galante MWD bonus ships should change to a Web resistance bonus. IE 5% per level resistance to webifier effects. It gives these ships the ability to more appropriately speed tank at close range, since armor tanking with no grid/cap is near impossible. With Dual 50% webs on a blaster ship with 25% redux in web effectiveness, it only reduces their speed by 37.5%.
Assault frigates, the other ship seeming lost in this problem could change their current resist bonus (which should just be static anyways) to a 10% per level web resist bonus. This makes these ships far more defensively viable in combat, while still fearing neuts, smartbombs, rapiers/huggins, close range cruiser setups, range interceptors, etc.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Tal Notts
Caldari Divine Power R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:52:00 -
[829]
didn't realise i'd posted in the wrong thread so copying post over to this one:
Edited by: Tal Notts on 25/07/2008 15:34:23 i do understand why speed is being looked at but i think some of the suggestions in the dev blog are just plain stupid.
Firstly the proposed changes to webs is greatly unfair on rapier/huginn pilots, unless some sort of bonus was given to those ships.
Secondly the proposed changes to warp scramblers, well a T2 warp scramble has a range of 9km and with these changes would be able to prevent the target warping and disable the targets MWD along with the 500% speed boost that comes with it. compare this to a web which has a range of 10km (1km more) but only reduces speed by 50%-60% with the new proposals and i think i know which is going to become more popular and i know people will argue it won't effect afterburners but in all honesty, afterburners are just not good enough.
Also, i really don't understand where this problem with polycarbs came from, yes a T1 polycarb is better than a T2 nanofibre but there is a massive price difference.
I'll have to admit now that my opinion is biased but i agree with some of the posts in that all these changes will encourage is blob tactics. Nanos are not invincable as they are, far from it, and although a slight adjustment in speeds may be needed i think the suggestions are just going too far.
edit: corrected typos
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ZAKARIUS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[830]
Sorry but i would be seriously ****ed off if these nerfs come into operation regarding snakes. How can u expect a pilot who invests in a full set of snakes only for them to be seriously nerfed to be happy with this? Its not as if u can take them off to sell! Ok, its understandable to nerf other modules as u can then have a say if u want to fit them or not but implants are different.
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[831]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil You know, we've been talking pretty much about inties and Vagas this whole time.
What about other nanocruisers? Curses, Zealots, Ishtars, Sacrileges, the works - how hard is this going to smack them?
I would find it pretty ironic if the people complaining about fighting only Vagas, Rapiers, Ishtars, and Zealots all the time only start to see Vagas.
I specifically mentioned the Ishtar, because even in it's totally underpowered state, it's my favorite HAC (I'm a Gallante softy). It is going to get absolutely crushed by this. It was already on the razor thin edge of being too damn slow, now it's most certain going to be too slow.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[832]
You know, I'm pretty offended that some people here would call me not only a "nanowhiner" but "uneducated" on the issue. Please, continue to do so. I'm laughing right now.
Also, do like the assault frigate quasi-boost.
Ghost Festival is recruiting. |
Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[833]
Originally by: Cota Senn OH MY. Day this happens is day I disable accounts.
Can i haz your stuff?
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[834]
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
---
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:53:00 -
[835]
Edited by: xGRIMERx on 25/07/2008 16:53:49
Originally by: reivol
For all of you whinning about this big nerf bat plesae note that : - today, speed tanking = no damage wether armor or shield tanking = reduced damage - today, speed = 99% chance of fleeing away a combat without countermesure.
I just wonder were all those km's on nanoships come from
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 -
[836]
Im all for reducing that Webifier strength too!
Frigates will be somewhat viable now: able to zip around a larger opponent at half speed, prolly staying ahead of the ships guns. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 -
[837]
Originally by: ZAKARIUS Sorry but i would be seriously ****ed off if these nerfs come into operation regarding snakes. How can u expect a pilot who invests in a full set of snakes only for them to be seriously nerfed to be happy with this? Its not as if u can take them off to sell! Ok, its understandable to nerf other modules as u can then have a say if u want to fit them or not but implants are different.
Do what? You want to nerf everyone, so the 1% of the people who actually run full snake pods in their HAC's don't get their feelings hurt? No way, that's idiotic. You nerf the PROBLEM, not the stuff that is a symptom of the problem.
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Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 -
[838]
Any chance we can get back TomB or tuxford, they seemed to actually play the game and knew what they were doing.. but on the good side you just made me want to bring out my artys for the first time in ages
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veldlover
Caldari The Galactic Empire Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 -
[839]
gallente recons would have an i-win button. Scrambled and no speed>>>dead
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Cat Gilligan
Caldari Blair Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 -
[840]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Saturn 5
translation: We don't actually care what our player base thinks about our proposals, we're pretty much gonna do whatever the hell we like.
Does CCP have a Customer Service dept? I would suggest that they are sacked, but with no customer care team, who would make important decisions on balancing game play?
Translation pt2: yelling "the sky is falling" without even seeing the changes is not very helpful. Some of the comments in here have been interesting and useful, others not so much. thats what "grain of salt" is all about. If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.
BS. I've heard the "you can't complain about it until you try it" line from Devs before. SOE. They said that about the Combat Downgrade and about the New Game Explosion". In those cases, we tried it, we didn't like it, the Devs still rammed it down our throats. Fact of the matter is, in EVE and other MMO's, if they code it, if it makes it to test, it WILL go to live, pretty much "as is".
I'm in favor of doing something about having HAC's and battleships that can outrun interceptors, but I don't think that the way you are going about it is constructive.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:55:00 -
[841]
a full set of HG snakes costs more then a couple caps why this is so ****ing brain dead its not even funny.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:55:00 -
[842]
Originally by: Doctor Happyface These changes are welcome, indeed!
I will now immediately cease the training of Gallente Cruisers IV, and resume learning how to pilot the most action-packed ship in the game, the Raven.
At least the money I saved for a Megathron can go to learning missile combat, or its lesser known, yet more hilarious cousin, ***** bombardment.
Yeah, cause Gallente Recons are sooo going to be useless after this change. Yep. No boost to be found in longe range warp disruptors after this
And what's up with people crying about their Minnie recons? This is an across the board speed change, your webs will still be just as effective, since pretty much everyone will be going slower, some will even fit ABs, making webs even better. Seems like most of you are Rapier solo-gankers in dasguise
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Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:55:00 -
[843]
Originally by: veldlover gallente recons would have an i-win button. Scrambled and no speed>>>dead
OMG it's a rapier! No wait.. it has a new name.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:56:00 -
[844]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Scripting webbers/warp disruptors might be cool.
no one likes your scripts, they just needlessly makes things more complicated.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 16:56:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Tal Notts
Also, i really don't understand where this problem with polycarbs came from, yes a T1 polycarb is better than a T2 nanofibre but there is a massive price difference.
I'll have to admit now that my opinion is biased but i agree with some of the posts in that all these changes will encourage is blob tactics. Nanos are not invincable as they are, far from it, and although a slight adjustment in speeds may be needed i think the suggestions are just going too far.
edit: corrected typos
It's the Economy Stupid |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:03:00 -
[846]
Personally Im going to do the sensible thing and test my ships on SISI, and then pass judgement. There seem to be a lot of knee jerk reactions that seem rather premature.
A few things to consider are that whilst Warp Scrams will disable a MWD in order to catch a ship with a MWD you're almost certainly going to have to fit one yourself.
Also, judging from the proposals outlined so far I dont think the speed change sub 5km/s is that extensive. Vagabonds will still be comparitely faster than other ships of the same class for example.
Blasterboats dont seem to have too many worries either - if fewer players fit MWDs then blaster boats will have an easier time getting in range - after all they couldnt hit fast targets anyway beyond web range. Now if say a deimos mwds and scrams another ship (and is scrammed back) they'll both effectively stop: good news for close range damage dealers.
It certainly opens up a whole range of possibilities - but at first glance it seems ok to me. And yes, I fly a nano curse.
C.
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sinsation
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:04:00 -
[847]
While some things such as the web change hitting specific ships(rapier/Huginn)rather badly, and the scram on something like an arazu is a horrid idea, being able to point and web at the same time with one mod is a little overpowered.
In general I like the idea about bringing the ships back in line with their speeds and hopefully letting us see more variety of fits back in game other than "nano". Just need to smooth out some bumpy bits on the proposed module changes.
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:05:00 -
[848]
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
oh my, I must quote this. READ CCP -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:05:00 -
[849]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat CCP: The nerf is too big.
Let's look at the underlying reasons for this. You don't want nano gangs zipping around at 5km/second with plain T2, unkillable, and able to do dps. Ok, so we want to nerf nanos, that's fine. Nerf the mwd some, take 20% off snakes, reduce polycarbs to be inline with T2 nanofibers.
What you are doing with this nerf, is to nerf speed in general. Not only are you nerfing runofthemill nano gangs, you're nerfing the blaster taranis, hell all blaster boats, you're nerfing an entire gamestyle, you are effectively pushing the whole population of eve towards caldari and amarr. When you nerfed the sabre for instance, that was a reasonable nerf that didn't nerf half the ships in the game. This nerf will make hictors even more overpowered, but hey at least you see that lachesis/arazu needs boosting, though this is the wrong way to do it.
As another poster said, we'll still see broken ships/setups, you're reducing everyone's speed, not just the nanos'. Now you'll have 6k vagas with snakes and T2 polycarbs and all, and what will there be to stop them? Everything is slow now.
Solution: Reduce base mwd speed by 25%, reduce web percentages by 15%, reduce snakes by 25%, make polys inline with T2 nanofibers, boost afterburners by 15%, then call it a day.
You had the right ideas in the beginning, which were to nerf nanogangs, and keep guerilla warfare alive. But all you've managed to do is nerf an entire gameplay while still allowing nanos to thrive. All that's changed is that nanos now stay 20km away as a rule, rapiers are half as dangerous, and arazu/lachesis is now primary.
Actually now that I think about it..... that's not too bad. Long live nanos. Now my blaster ranis on the other hand........ you served me well my friend, may you rest in peace among such prestigious company as the sabre, pilgrim, megathron, deimos, gankageddon. Goodbye.
So people are only giong 10km max?
So regular joes in their recons go only 3500m/s now?
Doesnt fix anything, the hammer must be hard. But, lets wait till we see what sisi is like. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:05:00 -
[850]
Originally by: Cailais Personally Im going to do the sensible thing and test my ships on SISI, and then pass judgement. There seem to be a lot of knee jerk reactions that seem rather premature.
A few things to consider are that whilst Warp Scrams will disable a MWD in order to catch a ship with a MWD you're almost certainly going to have to fit one yourself.
Also, judging from the proposals outlined so far I dont think the speed change sub 5km/s is that extensive. Vagabonds will still be comparitely faster than other ships of the same class for example.
Blasterboats dont seem to have too many worries either - if fewer players fit MWDs then blaster boats will have an easier time getting in range - after all they couldnt hit fast targets anyway beyond web range. Now if say a deimos mwds and scrams another ship (and is scrammed back) they'll both effectively stop: good news for close range damage dealers.
It certainly opens up a whole range of possibilities - but at first glance it seems ok to me. And yes, I fly a nano curse.
C.
There really isn't much to test. CCP clearly showed us the numbers earlier in the thread. A standard T2 Vagabond with T1 polycarbs will take a 2k/s nerf. To make it go even close to as fast as it does today, you need to drop the 4bn ISK on Snakes and T2 rigs (which, is, funny enough, CCP's theoretical test super HAC they are using to base these changes on).
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:05:00 -
[851]
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
How fast will this go after the nerf?
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[852]
I never see a so much ugly nerf.
If you want to nerf nano, WHY you don't make a EASY thing?
1 : limit overdrive and nano and i-stab by one per ship, like damage control. (so interceptor going to be fast, but full nano setup on cruiser going to be nerfed) 2 : Give a REAL DRAWBACK on velocity rig. 3 : Increase the range of tech 2 webifer. (like T2 warp scramble/disruptor)
Don't make a patch who is going to nerf EVERYONE !
Whith your patch we can forget solo pvp cause your web at 60 is just a JOKE, and whith a warp scrambler we can't tackle someone at the decloak on a gate (and the guy who uncloak can activate his MWD before the scramble be active, and whith a 60% web we are F uck ed)
And i don't speak about the expensive faction item like implant or MWD who are now going to worth PEANUTS.
CCP should stop make very big nerf like that, who are just KILLING a playstyle, where little adjustement will works better. ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[853]
you are changing so many damn variables I don't know what the **** to think.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[854]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say...
oh my, I must quote this. READ CCP
He's mistakened, they're balancing with an aim at regular nano'ers while using the gross abusers as an example. 3.5-6km a second in ANY cruiser is too fast. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[855]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: CCP Dionysus eg, Crow with speed setup vs a harp at extreme range, vs a kestrel with light missiles, and vs a drone boat using light drones. - or a vagabond vs a set of cruisers using turrets, missiles, and med drones to try to hit it etc.
Would you like to rent my JCB? It digs faster that that shovel.
THREAD OVER.
The prize goes to Elmicker.
Thank you, apart from almost making me puke my curry over the keyboard you gave me a good laugh.
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Das Ende
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[856]
Edited by: Das Ende on 25/07/2008 17:08:20 yeah, let us nerf everything to death, so we can start a new mmog. a speednerf would take away A LOT of possibilitys in pvp and at least nearly all the fun small gangs can have in this game. i hope we wont see these changings come live... the possibillity to roam with fast ships is what me keeps interessted in this game.
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:06:00 -
[857]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: Apertotes i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
that way, a devoted pilot would be able to counter nanoships, but at the expense of having almost no tank or damage mods.
Their crappy physics engine wasnt able to take that much info it seems. Which makes me laugh hard.
i refuse to believe that.
the problem is that with these nerfs CCP is taking specialiced setups out of the game. if i want to devote 9 slots on my abbadon to speed, it should make a difference, and of course, it should have some consecuences (lack of armor, etc)
the same, if i want to devote 9 slots to armor tanking i should be able. what? oh, yes, I AM ABLE!!! so, why can those that decide to tank their ships have very specialised setups, yet those that decide to speed up can not do it?
the same happens with damage mods. fitting more than 3 heatsinks is worthless, yet BS have many more low slots. i know that the way damage bonuses apply would make them overpowered, but they could get rid of the damage bonus and only apply ROF bonus, so that having multiple mods would not be overpowered.
CCP, by nerfing extreme fittings this much you are cutting down on the game's deph and variety. what you should do instead is to give us tools to create extreme counter settings, so that variety is still present, and there is always a rock for every scissor.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:07:00 -
[858]
Can we have the Trinity Deimos changes back please?
Cerberus is now the best HAC, Raven now the best non-fleet PVP BS, c/d? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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CONCORDOKKENED
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:07:00 -
[859]
Man, EVE was too hard to play.
Thank you CCP for planning to remove the only exciting way to play your game. I cannot wait to sit still against other players hitting F1, F2, F3...
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matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:08:00 -
[860]
i agree with what that guy maz quoted said
time to start training for a falcon and raven i guess
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:08:00 -
[861]
CCP.... HONESTLY EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WANT PVP COMBAT IN EVE TO BE !!!
If you could just explain what it is you want, the people that play the game can tell you if the changes you suggest will work.
No slam, just tell us what you're after?
You must know large groups don't work at this point? Are you looking for BS's too have more of a chance against HAC's? Do you want PVP to be 100% dependant on numbers, so once scouts report, everyone can just go back home and reduce your server load, as the fight will be dediced before it starts? Do you want your players that spent years on HAC skill's to train something else or go play WOW?
Honestly just state what your "Vision" is here?
Cause I can tell you, we don't "get it"
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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:08:00 -
[862]
Edited by: Ander on 25/07/2008 17:09:42 To make afterburners viable. Make them immune to webifiers or have them counter the webs in some way.
Rapier and pretty much all recons will be easy to kill in any major engagement.
EVE PIRATE
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:08:00 -
[863]
Edited by: Elmicker on 25/07/2008 17:08:29
Originally by: Haradgrim Cerberus is now the best HAC, Raven now the best non-fleet PVP BS, c/d?
D. Cerb does **** damage and has a **** poor tank. Sac's better.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:09:00 -
[864]
Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: Apertotes i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
that way, a devoted pilot would be able to counter nanoships, but at the expense of having almost no tank or damage mods.
Their crappy physics engine wasnt able to take that much info it seems. Which makes me laugh hard.
i refuse to believe that.
the problem is that with these nerfs CCP is taking specialiced setups out of the game. if i want to devote 9 slots on my abbadon to speed, it should make a difference, and of course, it should have some consecuences (lack of armor, etc)
the same, if i want to devote 9 slots to armor tanking i should be able. what? oh, yes, I AM ABLE!!! so, why can those that decide to tank their ships have very specialised setups, yet those that decide to speed up can not do it?
the same happens with damage mods. fitting more than 3 heatsinks is worthless, yet BS have many more low slots. i know that the way damage bonuses apply would make them overpowered, but they could get rid of the damage bonus and only apply ROF bonus, so that having multiple mods would not be overpowered.
CCP, by nerfing extreme fittings this much you are cutting down on the game's deph and variety. what you should do instead is to give us tools to create extreme counter settings, so that variety is still present, and there is always a rock for every scissor.
Cause when you tank, you stay there for the duration of the fight. When you nano, you leave when stuff turns south.
Its no fun when someone disengages. ----------------- Friends Forever |
xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:09:00 -
[865]
Originally by: Entelechia There really isn't much to test. CCP clearly showed us the numbers earlier in the thread. A standard T2 Vagabond with T1 polycarbs will take a 2k/s nerf. To make it go even close to as fast as it does today, you need to drop the 4bn ISK on Snakes and T2 rigs (which, is, funny enough, CCP's theoretical test super HAC they are using to base these changes on).
This patch nerfs inties even more actually.. now they hope to live having enough speed to outrun missiles and make turrets miss with the patch they just die
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:09:00 -
[866]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
Let me help you with that m8.. He is talking about how he didn’t see much of that uber ultra speed boats around. In fact, only 1 (one) uber zoom zoom vaga and 3 (three) inties go by that uber speeds. In my entire EVE life I saw 2 Macharials doing 9,5 (before any speed nerf), 2 ***as doing aprox 10 and few inties going 13km/s. And only impression they make on me was – “wow, you invested so much money in that”.
Anyone, and I mean anyone who knows at least something about speed in fights knows that there is no way you can kill someone flying that fast. And you also know how many things you should be afraid off.
It’s so fracking obvious, especially after statements like “I newer used MWD and whole concept of MWD is wrong” from a guy who is pro nerf, that you are listening wrong people, caldari carebears, pvp loosers…
W8, this was brought by FW? So, Caldari using new regions to Gallente is out of the storyline you intended to EVE? Minmatars should be slaves again?
U SUX
--------- I want to phew phew
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Chr0nosX
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:09:00 -
[867]
Edited by: Chr0nosX on 25/07/2008 17:09:47 This seems pretty stupid, the arazu did need a buff though. Blob wars here we come.
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Vily
Amarr Eternity INC. Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:09:00 -
[868]
in eve there is nothing so sweet as podding someone who was going 22km/s.
your going to take that away from me.
shame on you. -
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Apsa1ar
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:10:00 -
[869]
Edited by: Apsa1ar on 25/07/2008 17:09:43
Originally by: Dendo Ordoss
Originally by: Barsexual [Deimos, deimos] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Explosive Hardener II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M [empty high slot]
Anti-Explosive Pump I Ancillary Current Router I
Hammerhead II x5
1688m/s How fast will this Deimos fitting be going with current changes?
deimos will be the same as it is unless they nerfed the speed on t2 mwd's
They did nerf the speed on T2 MWDs.
From the dev blog:
Quote: Our current idea is to have MWD's only differ in capacitor capacity penalty as well as reactivation delay, instead of the speed progression between meta levels. This means they would all give the same speed boost, 500%, the aim being to reducing the number of factors affecting the maximum velocity attainable over a normal tech2 MWD.
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Molly Missile
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:10:00 -
[870]
Originally by: Apertotes
the same, if i want to devote 9 slots to armor tanking i should be able. what? oh, yes, I AM ABLE!!! so, why can those that decide to tank their ships have very specialised setups, yet those that decide to speed up can not do it?
Because armor tanking doesn't break the physics engine.
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Turkantho
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:10:00 -
[871]
Edited by: Turkantho on 25/07/2008 17:15:26 Edited by: Turkantho on 25/07/2008 17:13:46
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
what boosters i may ask ?
the x-instinct that are going the be nerfed as well and give you signature reduction instead of speed boost soon ???
ok at first i thought ok speed nerf shit, then i read some more ok, couldn't be that bad at the first read suggested, then i saw your "fitting" and thought oh **** they lost it nerfing speeds of 10k+ is ok and i'm all for it but this nerf will go to far
edit: spelling ________
Sometimes paranoiaÆs just having all the facts.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:11:00 -
[872]
Unless scrambles are boosted to have more than a "7.5km t2 to 15km officer", I see a lack of point.
All this will do is render webs completely useless (effectively making anything but a nano ship pointless to fly), and swap Huggins for Arazus for anti nano work.
Please tell me webs will at least double in range to compensate, otherwise I'll need 3 midslots to do what 2 used to do on any ship I fly,
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Saori Rei
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:12:00 -
[873]
Arazu super buff ftw... though I feel this could be a blasterboat nerf... sort off.... hmmm. Also Hictors have just turned even MORE lethal.
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deadok
Amarr RUS Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:12:00 -
[874]
Edited by: deadok on 25/07/2008 17:14:21
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Ares, Speed]
hitting 5k
wieeee, now i can fit my harby with beams, put a couple of tc,te,sb, warpin @ 150km, and pwn almost any inty, that would try to get and scramble me. meh, i can make it even in my pulse apoc.
notice: you might see a sarcasm in my post
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Cur
Dawn of a new Empire Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:12:00 -
[875]
Ahahaha!! Thanks for making my day nano****** and please continue your outpour of emotion.
Don't give an inch Nozh. A greater variety of ships and setups will hopefully soon return to the battlefield. |
Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:12:00 -
[876]
Look at who is pro and who is anti...everyone who likes the nerf is from some fail carebear alliance/corp who basically only pvp's when their precious mining op is interrupted...so of course they like any change which means all you need is numbers to win.
This change is anti-small gang clearly...you can easily implement some simple stacking penalties and deal with the speed issue...but no, that's not enough...you need to make it so numbers win plain and simple. You don't need skils, you don't need tactics, just pure numbers...
This nerf is pure pro blob...and appeals to carebear tears plain and simple...blob-online, because caps online wasn't bad enough...
X up for a mining up guys!
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:13:00 -
[877]
Edited by: Entelechia on 25/07/2008 17:13:15 Yes, I also found it pretty funny that they mention boosters as a speed boost...after saying in the blog that speed boosters are getting changed.
Let alone playing the game, did you read the blog your fellow dev wrote?
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:13:00 -
[878]
How about keeping everything as-is and just changing the warp-scrambler into an anti-MWD module, eg with scripts:
Warp Scrambler, changes from a continual-effect module to a "stop"-module (think manual mode with a long reactivation timer): a) -50% range (5km with t2), Disables MWD b) +50% range,(15km with t2), Reduces target MWD-speed by 90% instantly c) Unscripted, -80% range (2km with t2), Disables MWD & Reduces target MWD-speed by 50% instantly.
It no longer stops any ships from warping away, it's 100% designed to stop MICROWARPDRIVES. Make it have a 20 second delay before it can be used again.
The scrambler in this case isn't a continual point, but a stop-module. You use it on one target, it can still warp away, but it's designed to work against nano-ships. It's very short-range so you either have to get up close and personal, or be in an Arazu.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:13:00 -
[879]
Originally by: Hul'ka
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
Let me help you with that m8.. He is talking about how he didnÆt see much of that uber ultra speed boats around. In fact, only 1 (one) uber zoom zoom vaga and 3 (three) inties go by that uber speeds. In my entire EVE life I saw 2 Macharials doing 9,5 (before any speed nerf), 2 ***as doing aprox 10 and few inties going 13km/s. And only impression they make on me was û ôwow, you invested so much money in thatö.
Anyone, and I mean anyone who knows at least something about speed in fights knows that there is no way you can kill someone flying that fast. And you also know how many things you should be afraid off.
ItÆs so fracking obvious, especially after statements like ôI newer used MWD and whole concept of MWD is wrongö from a guy who is pro nerf, that you are listening wrong people, caldari carebears, pvp loosersà
W8, this was brought by FW? So, Caldari using new regions to Gallente is out of the storyline you intended to EVE? Minmatars should be slaves again?
U SUX
Its not the uber speeds they're concerned about, its the 3.5-5km regular speeds that HACs and Recons were easily obtaining with polly's. Those speeds broke game balance because you either had 5-10 huginn's in your gang or you nano'd yourself.
How is anyone NOT seeing this is broken? Every roaming gang was comprised of nano's. You would be hard pressed to find a shield booster or armor repairer anywhere in a small gang lately, except as loot int he cargohold.
Get a life nano'ers, you're time as voyers to combat is gone. Pick up a rep like the rest of us. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:14:00 -
[880]
I feel soo soo bad for CCP right now. I wonder how many peeps emoquit for this, can we get a statistic?
My 2 cents, There definitly needed to be changes to combat speed, This doesnt seem to be the right direction however. I mean wouldn't it have been far easier to implement scripts for webbers?
Normalizing the base speeds makes sense.
Warp Scramblers stop MWD's? then you best make warp disrupter bubbles do the same!
Thank you for atleast making my arazu somewhat useful, but you screwed over my blaster ships, and for that im most disappointed, they were already pretty useless, now, i dont know.
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Alpha Dash
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:14:00 -
[881]
im go WOW thx CCP
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:14:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Cur A greater variety of ships ...
This is incorrect. The mid-range hacs that lack tank and now lack speed, such as the deimos, ishtar and zealot will be left without roles in small gang warfare. You'll be seeing a much narrower variation in shiptypes now, potentially reduced to just the vagabond.
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SOSAKLINGO
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:14:00 -
[883]
the speed nerf will get eve-online very nerfed. a large amount of people will get nurfed a lot of training time you can troy it in the toilet you like that eve-online ?
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Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:14:00 -
[884]
Originally by: Cur Ahahaha!! Thanks for making my day nano****** and please continue your outpour of emotion.
Don't give an inch Nozh. A greater variety of ships and setups will hopefully soon return to the battlefield.
Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:15:00 -
[885]
Edited by: Entelechia on 25/07/2008 17:15:16
Originally by: Aenis Veros How about keeping everything as-is and just changing the warp-scrambler into an anti-MWD module, eg with scripts:
Warp Scrambler, changes from a continual-effect module to a "stop"-module (think manual mode with a long reactivation timer): a) -50% range (5km with t2), Disables MWD b) +50% range,(15km with t2), Reduces target MWD-speed by 90% instantly c) Unscripted, -80% range (2km with t2), Disables MWD & Reduces target MWD-speed by 50% instantly.
It no longer stops any ships from warping away, it's 100% designed to stop MICROWARPDRIVES. Make it have a 20 second delay before it can be used again.
The scrambler in this case isn't a continual point, but a stop-module. You use it on one target, it can still warp away, but it's designed to work against nano-ships. It's very short-range so you either have to get up close and personal, or be in an Arazu.
We have something like this already. We call them stasis webifiers. In fact, we even have ships that are really good at catching nanoships and stopping them cold. They are called the Rapier and the Huginn.
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Junkie Beverage
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:15:00 -
[886]
man this thread is awesome
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:15:00 -
[887]
Originally by: facialimpediment
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.
You do realize that very few HAC pilots actually use speed implants, right?
Right?
RIGHT?
It's hard for a carebear and SISI tester to undrestand the delicate wallet balance after your ship blows up leaving you with full set snakes in the middle of a bubble. --------- I want to phew phew
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:15:00 -
[888]
Originally by: Cailais Blasterboats dont seem to have too many worries either - if fewer players fit MWDs then blaster boats will have an easier time getting in range - after all they couldnt hit fast targets anyway beyond web range. Now if say a deimos mwds and scrams another ship (and is scrammed back) they'll both effectively stop: good news for close range damage dealers.
Anyone who fits an AB will be able to simply fly away from a scrammed blasterboat, assuming they even have to fly away given tracking issues. The combination of MWD scrambler and reduced web means that the blasterboat loses the ability to pin them down and the ability to chase. Against MWD fitted opponents, the problem is not as drastic, but since you will lose your MWD and be webbed as you approach, you will have to tank for a bit longer before you can return fire.
This rebalance is supposed to avoid situations where the enemy can simply disengage at will, yet this is exactly the situation it will create for blasterboats. -
DesuSigs |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:16:00 -
[889]
Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win?
Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
BuIIseye
Amarr Pax Amarria Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:17:00 -
[890]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Scripting webbers/warp disruptors might be cool.
Sure, that would be fun, in a perfect lag free EVE. Ever tried to change scripts in epic lag? Have you even played the game in fleet battles recently? Or do you consider them rare and spontaneous, because thats the only way 0.0 space changes hands these days, in big fleet battles with epic lag, in conflicts that got EVE-Online mentioned on prestigious websites and magazine's across the world this year.
Instead of nerfing ships with Snake sets that 0.1% of the PVPers use, how about improving the server performance or find ways to discourage blobing that affects all of 0.0 ?
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Stahlfalke
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:17:00 -
[891]
Its simple: This will ruin the game.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:17:00 -
[892]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Cur A greater variety of ships ...
This is incorrect. The mid-range hacs that lack tank and now lack speed, such as the deimos, ishtar and zealot will be left without roles in small gang warfare. You'll be seeing a much narrower variation in shiptypes now, potentially reduced to just the vagabond.
?
Still thinking like a nano-pilot. Maybe people start tanking--gasp--or brining BCs/BS's to small gangs--gasp--or use frigates for speed--gasp! ----------------- Friends Forever |
lebrata
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:17:00 -
[893]
Originally by: HotSeat
CCP.... HONESTLY EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WANT PVP COMBAT IN EVE TO BE !!!
If you could just explain what it is you want, the people that play the game can tell you if the changes you suggest will work.
No slam, just tell us what you're after?
You must know large groups don't work at this point? Are you looking for BS's too have more of a chance against HAC's? Do you want PVP to be 100% dependant on numbers, so once scouts report, everyone can just go back home and reduce your server load, as the fight will be dediced before it starts? Do you want your players that spent years on HAC skill's to train something else or go play WOW?
Honestly just state what your "Vision" is here?
Cause I can tell you, we don't "get it"
THIS PRETTY MUCH COVERS IT TBH.
We are totally interested in increasing our player base and so increasing our profit, we know well that most older player will proly stay no matter what we nerf because of the time and money they have invested in the game.
But because newer players tend to get disillusioned because of the abilities of those who have spent years and lots of money to improve their game play we are nerfing anything that makes being a long term eve player worthwhile and by doing this making low sp and basic ship fits and types 100% effective.
To be succinct "screw you and the rest of the long term eve players" we make more money pandering to noobs cos most of you long termers aint gonna quit no matter what we do.
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August Guns
Minmatar Infinite ISK
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:18:00 -
[894]
First off, I'd like to state that I am a firm believer in boosting instead of nerfing in MMOs. As some more vocal pundits have said, they enjoy going fast in their nano ships, picking and preying on targets at will. Nerfing aspects of gameplay adversely affect that part of the customer base. On the other hand, given the outcry for a nano nerf, not doing something can be just as bad.
That being said, I find the new use of warp scramblers ingenious. I expected (and am glad) that ceptors are expected by CCP to be on top of the speed scale. I am disappointed to see nerfs to speeds of ships, even though I haven't seen the actual stats yet. I think there could have been other changes made that would been more balanced in the end.
- Keep the change to warp scramblers. Ingenious, I wish I had thought of it.
- Boost afterburners. They need to be able to compete with MWDs on larger ships. Tanked ships (BCs, Battleships, etc.) use MWDs for two reasons: to dictate range and run back to gates/through bubbles (unless you're Burn Eden. If only we all could have such skill ) A speed bonus for afterburners and a scram bonus seems perfect for assault ships.
- Fix Precision munitions. Bring heavy precisions into line with light and cruise as well as increasing velocity (decreasing fight time to keep the same range) so they can catch up to fast ships. Light Precs for anti-nano-frigates, heavies for anti-nano-cruisers, cruises for anti-cruiser.
- Modify webs to accomidate longer-ranged orbits, perhaps by including a falloff. I won't argue specific figures, but give risk to ships orbiting withing T2 scram range. Say, 10km + 6km falloff range.
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Cat Gilligan
Caldari Blair Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:18:00 -
[895]
A better solution:
Hardcap speed. This way you actually accomplish the goal without messing around with too many game mechanics, throwing the game into chaos (which the current proposal will do) and cause the Devs to spend the next YEAR fixing the problems that will be introduced.
Put a speed "hardcap" on each hull type. This will be the maximum speed the ship will go, regardless of gang bonuses, implants, or other fitting. This will maintain the value of those bonuses and actually open up more possibilities for fitting. This will bring values down to approximately what is currently being proposed but without the collateral damage.
You could "soften" the hardcap by putting in diminishing returns for values that would take you past the cap, but to a maximum variance of, say, 10%.
Values could be:
Interceptors: 10kms T1 Frigates: 5kms T2 Frigates: 6kms
Destroyers/Dictors: 2kms
T1 Cruisers: 2.5kms T2 Cruisers: 3kms
T1 Battleships: 1kms T2 Battleships: 1.2kms
We can argue about the numbers, but isn't this a better solution than making people's uber expensive implants, rigs, and other stuff suddenly worth far less? Sure in combination, they will be, but taken individually they will still be worth what they are now.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:18:00 -
[896]
Originally by: Entelechia
We have something like this already. We call them stasis webifiers. In fact, we even have ships that are really good at catching nanoships and stopping them cold. They are called the Rapier and the Huginn.
No, stasis webifiers slow a ship down, and do not disable your module. What I propose here is a module that stops you dead in the water and disables your MWD at very short range, or scripted does either effect.
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gavhriel
Amarr Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:18:00 -
[897]
I'm thrilled to see the CCP actualy tries to improve the gameplay. (of course those ideas need to be tested and twiched)
You like pvp ? nano actually killed solo pvp in the way that you couldn;t do solo pvp without being a nano yourself during this time shitting your pants in fear of losing your pimped ship.
you like to roam ? roam in cheaper ships...yes you will die more often but you wont lose 1 bil ships+fittings+implants (and ofc snakes and polycarbon rigs will be cheaper....3km/sec hac will be afordable by more people...the ones that dont own moons)
EVE was dominated by small gangs of nano hacs and recons and every new player that joined the game found out that he needs 1 year+ of trainning to be actualy any good at pvp. After the changes you might actually have a chance in an assault frig to kill a hac :)
Small ships are hugely buffed vs larger ships and this is a good thing.
Addapt people, or ofc quit :) (dont forget to send some stuff this way ... i'll actually start flying nanos more often that's for sure)
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:19:00 -
[898]
Jeez, do we really need 34 pages to state the obvious?
CCP, work on boosts instead of nerfs. Stop being so damned negative. :P
Black Hand.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[899]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat
As another poster said, we'll still see broken ships/setups, you're reducing everyone's speed, not just the nanos'. Now you'll have 6k vagas with snakes and T2 polycarbs and all, and what will there be to stop them? Everything is slow now.
Ships don't kill ships. Weapon systems do.
Weapon systems can match a 5-6k vaga with a MWD signature if set up right. Not a 10k vaga.
It's not as much about ship speed vs. ship speed, but ship speed vs. tracking/explosion/velocity/speed of weapon systems.
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Meridius Dex
Amarr Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[900]
Holy crap, dude! I was reading every page up to 14 or so but, every page I read, four more pages are being added to the end of this monster! LOL So I'm jumping up to 32 to say (if it hasn't already been said):
At first glance it looks like short range interceptors are really screwed by the scrambler changes, but then you realize that short range interceptors will fit afterburners while interceptors with optimal ranges greater than 10 km will stick with microwarpdrives. So you see, calming down for a minute to really consider the changes already leads to some exciting new strategies. And that's just in the first five minutes -- imagine what will happen after the Eve community has a couple of weeks to really work through these changes.
And yes this makes MWDs a lot more tactical. I really appreciate the fact that they are trying to prevent them from being used on every single PVP ship (a long-term gripe of mine!). And, as a long-suffering Amarr, I will appreciate the fact that I can finally start fitting ABs on more ships in more varied tactical situations.
I have to say it's always enjoyable to see the types of persons who whine the loudest when a nerf comes down. Everyone knew that Triumvirate has been crying the loudest against a nano Nerf for the longest time. It's a shame their previous incarnation is basically dead or I would really be enjoying these tears right about now. (And obviously an alliance-wide evemail was sent out from PL earlier this morning to spam this thread with all their nano might! LOL)
I'm still not sure why Goumindong's idea of graduated webifier strength/ranges was not at least tried on the test server. I think it's an interesting idea that warp scramblers will have this added effect -- it does take a previously all-but-useless module and makes it tactically worthwhile. I'm not sure about it, but I trust that CCP has been working their physics supercomputer day and night and have really put a good deal of thought into this. And if the stacking speed nerf combined with 50% webs is what will do the trick, then count me in.
And, as Rawr Christina said, the following has always been true: 90% Webs and MWD have been overpowered must-fit modules for far too long. -- Meridius Dex --
Amarr = EVE on Hard setting |
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[901]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Still thinking like a nano-pilot. Maybe people start tanking--gasp--or brining BCs/BS's to small gangs--gasp--or use frigates for speed--gasp!
Try tanking an ishtar. Try tanking a zealot. Try tanking a deimos. Try tanking a cerb. See what happens. These are the most common ships at the moment because they can be half-nanoed. A nerf to nanos as severe as the one proposed will leave them without the ability to pvp as none of these ships can really join in with the big boys. Dominance in pvp will shift from fast moving (not necessarily nano) gangs, to RR BS gangs and capital hot drops.
Whoo, that's fun
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[902]
Originally by: gavhriel I'm thrilled to see the CCP actualy tries to improve the gameplay. (of course those ideas need to be tested and twiched)
You like pvp ? nano actually killed solo pvp in the way that you couldn;t do solo pvp without being a nano yourself during this time shitting your pants in fear of losing your pimped ship.
you like to roam ? roam in cheaper ships...yes you will die more often but you wont lose 1 bil ships+fittings+implants (and ofc snakes and polycarbon rigs will be cheaper....3km/sec hac will be afordable by more people...the ones that dont own moons)
EVE was dominated by small gangs of nano hacs and recons and every new player that joined the game found out that he needs 1 year+ of trainning to be actualy any good at pvp. After the changes you might actually have a chance in an assault frig to kill a hac :)
Small ships are hugely buffed vs larger ships and this is a good thing.
Addapt people, or ofc quit :) (dont forget to send some stuff this way ... i'll actually start flying nanos more often that's for sure)
Pow! First ally in pages!
Long live big ship small gang! ----------------- Friends Forever |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[903]
Originally by: Entelechia
Originally by: Cailais Personally Im going to do the sensible thing and test my ships on SISI, and then pass judgement. There seem to be a lot of knee jerk reactions that seem rather premature.
A few things to consider are that whilst Warp Scrams will disable a MWD in order to catch a ship with a MWD you're almost certainly going to have to fit one yourself.
Also, judging from the proposals outlined so far I dont think the speed change sub 5km/s is that extensive. Vagabonds will still be comparitely faster than other ships of the same class for example.
Blasterboats dont seem to have too many worries either - if fewer players fit MWDs then blaster boats will have an easier time getting in range - after all they couldnt hit fast targets anyway beyond web range. Now if say a deimos mwds and scrams another ship (and is scrammed back) they'll both effectively stop: good news for close range damage dealers.
It certainly opens up a whole range of possibilities - but at first glance it seems ok to me. And yes, I fly a nano curse.
C.
There really isn't much to test. CCP clearly showed us the numbers earlier in the thread. A standard T2 Vagabond with T1 polycarbs will take a 2k/s nerf. To make it go even close to as fast as it does today, you need to drop the 4bn ISK on Snakes and T2 rigs (which, is, funny enough, CCP's theoretical test super HAC they are using to base these changes on).
Im not a massive expert on the vagabond, I must admit, plugging some modules into the dreaded EFT (2 x polycarb 1, 3 x OD II and 2 x Nanos) I get a max speed of 6754m/s for the vagabond. So assuming your drop of 2km/s is correct it would do 4754m/s.
Ok, now admitedly thats all skills at V (which Im sure most people don't have) but I know my curse isnt a bad tank and that really only goes around 2km/s (depending on fit) and it seems to do fine. Even if you knock of 1 km/s for lower skills the vagabond is still pretty darn fast for a HAC.
We need to see these changes in context - after all EVERYONE will be going a bit slower.
C.
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Brunswick2
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[904]
Originally by: Theo Samaritan
> Small gang PvP wont die people, you just need old tactics rather than the crap you have come up with recently
So, what are the old tactics? For as long as i've been playing (2005), people have been using nanos. They eventually nerfed nanobs and slightly nerfed everything else. But people kept using nanos pretty exclusively, because its the only way to fight the blob.
Well except for cloaks, but we know how our carebear overlords feel about those.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 -
[905]
Originally by: lebrata But because newer players tend to get disillusioned because of the abilities of those who have spent years and lots of money to improve their game play we are nerfing anything that makes being a long term eve player worthwhile and by doing this making low sp and basic ship fits and types 100% effective.
To be succinct "screw you and the rest of the long term eve players" we make more money pandering to noobs cos most of you long termers aint gonna quit no matter what we do.
Hardly fair. This is an MMO. If you arrange matters so that older players tend to win all the time, which CCP have made a blanket statement saying they don't want that, then of course new players are put off. Simple business sense.
Of course, you're implying that all old players nano, and all new players suck at PvP and are carebears, which pretty much places you in a given camp immediately, and therefore there's not much point furthering the debate.
To quote CCP in a recent press statement 'a bunch of T1 frigs will always be able to kill that expensive T2 ship'. I don't see a problem with that, even when I am the one owning that T2 ship. This is a social game, not a personalised version of Unreal Tournament. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Cat Gilligan
Caldari Blair Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:23:00 -
[906]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Jeez, do we really need 34 pages to state the obvious?
CCP, work on boosts instead of nerfs. Stop being so damned negative. :P
Why not improve webs? How about offering a new kind of web module that is a companion to the existing, very short range, very powerful web that is very long range, but is of lower strength? Such as, a 40km web that is of 50% strength?
Giving something to someone else is always going to be more favorably received than taking stuff away.
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:24:00 -
[907]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: Apertotes i am not against nerfing speed at all, but i want to ask a question.
to achieve that ludicruous speed, a pilot needs to dedicate almost all of its low and rig slots to that goal, thus leaving almost no room for damage mods or tanking.
my question is, why didnt CCP provide a way for missile spammers or drone users to devote 5,6 or 9 slots to missile speed so that missiles also achieve that ludicruous speed? of course, this should also be possible with guns' tracking.
that way, a devoted pilot would be able to counter nanoships, but at the expense of having almost no tank or damage mods.
Their crappy physics engine wasnt able to take that much info it seems. Which makes me laugh hard.
i refuse to believe that.
the problem is that with these nerfs CCP is taking specialiced setups out of the game. if i want to devote 9 slots on my abbadon to speed, it should make a difference, and of course, it should have some consecuences (lack of armor, etc)
the same, if i want to devote 9 slots to armor tanking i should be able. what? oh, yes, I AM ABLE!!! so, why can those that decide to tank their ships have very specialised setups, yet those that decide to speed up can not do it?
the same happens with damage mods. fitting more than 3 heatsinks is worthless, yet BS have many more low slots. i know that the way damage bonuses apply would make them overpowered, but they could get rid of the damage bonus and only apply ROF bonus, so that having multiple mods would not be overpowered.
CCP, by nerfing extreme fittings this much you are cutting down on the game's deph and variety. what you should do instead is to give us tools to create extreme counter settings, so that variety is still present, and there is always a rock for every scissor.
Cause when you tank, you stay there for the duration of the fight. When you nano, you leave when stuff turns south.
Its no fun when someone disengages.
well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
Originally by: Molly Missile
Originally by: Apertotes
the same, if i want to devote 9 slots to armor tanking i should be able. what? oh, yes, I AM ABLE!!! so, why can those that decide to tank their ships have very specialised setups, yet those that decide to speed up can not do it?
Because armor tanking doesn't break the physics engine.
i repeat, i do not believe it. and if it does, then fix the engine, instead of nerfing the game.
again, i am not against a speed nerf at all, i am against nerfing specialiced fittings.
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:24:00 -
[908]
Originally by: Cat Gilligan Why not improve webs?
This. Adding signature radius and falloff mechanics to webs would go a long way to solving a lot of what CCP see as a problem, without leaving swathes of ships useless and without breaking blaster boats.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:25:00 -
[909]
Originally by: Alkie Ranting is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
*prepares for eve to explode*
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PeacefullNub
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:25:00 -
[910]
AFs boost is good. But please give retribution -1 high +1 med, so it can actualy use AB and new scrambler.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:25:00 -
[911]
Thanks for ending solo pvp guys.
CCP <3's the blob
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:25:00 -
[912]
Originally by: PeacefullNub AFs boost is good. But please give retribution -1 high +1 med, so it can actualy use AB and new scrambler.
This is not a buff for AFs.
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Xelloss Metallum
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:26:00 -
[913]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.
2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.
Ok, now to the real issues.
Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.
Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.
Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.
What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.
Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.
Sup Dungar?
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:26:00 -
[914]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Cur A greater variety of ships ...
This is incorrect. The mid-range hacs that lack tank and now lack speed, such as the deimos, ishtar and zealot will be left without roles in small gang warfare. You'll be seeing a much narrower variation in shiptypes now, potentially reduced to just the vagabond.
?
Still thinking like a nano-pilot. Maybe people start tanking--gasp--or brining BCs/BS's to small gangs--gasp--or use frigates for speed--gasp!
THERE ARE frigs and bs in small gangs if u have ever pvped u would know that it's no use to have a fast frig that dies before his comrades on nanohacs get to the target
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:27:00 -
[915]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win?
Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD.
Ok, I'll put it in a way that I see it. Fine nerf nano's I don't care much. Oh crap my blasterboat backbone . That is how I see it at the moment.
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:27:00 -
[916]
Originally by: Apertotes
*words*
welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP
*words*
this ^ -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Cat Gilligan
Caldari Blair Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:28:00 -
[917]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Cat Gilligan Why not improve webs?
This. Adding signature radius and falloff mechanics to webs would go a long way to solving a lot of what CCP see as a problem, without leaving swathes of ships useless and without breaking blaster boats.
How about webs that will slow your target by 100% at 0km or 0% at 100km?
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Pattonator
Shinra
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:28:00 -
[918]
Quit changing stuff. It takes a long time to become well skilled in a particular area and when I become proficient then you change stuff again.
So here I am know whining that too many people in Eve whine and CCP caters to them.
Speed wasn't broken. If people wanted to spend billions of isk to make a ship go 15km/s then fine. Ships that go that fast have no DPS and won't fight anyway. All it takes is for a few webbers to cost the guy a fortune.
NO MORE NERFS.
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lebrata
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:28:00 -
[919]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: lebrata THIS PRETTY MUCH COVERS IT TBH.
We are totally interested in increasing our player base and so increasing our profit, we know well that most older player will proly stay no matter what we nerf because of the time and money they have invested in the game.
But because newer players tend to get disillusioned because of the abilities of those who have spent years and lots of money to improve their game play we are nerfing anything that makes being a long term eve player worthwhile and by doing this making low sp and basic ship fits and types 100% effective.
To be succinct "screw you and the rest of the long term eve players" we make more money pandering to noobs cos most of you long termers aint gonna quit no matter what we do.
Hardly fair. This is an MMO. If you arrange matters so that older players tend to win all the time, which CCP have made a blanket statement saying they don't want that, then of course new players are put off. Simple business sense.
Of course, you're implying that all old players nano, and all new players suck at PvP and are carebears, which pretty much places you in a given camp immediately, and therefore there's not much point furthering the debate.
To quote CCP in a recent press statement 'a bunch of T1 frigs will always be able to kill that expensive T2 ship'. I don't see a problem with that, even when I am the one owning that T2 ship. This is a social game, not a personalised version of Unreal Tournament.
In every game i have ever played older more experianced and better trained/equipped players have always been able to bet newer less skilled and equipped players, eve is the only game that already breaks that rule but this new nerf is making a form of pvp and ship type almost obsolete and not worth flying.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:28:00 -
[920]
Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Cause when you tank, you stay there for the duration of the fight. When you nano, you leave when stuff turns south.
Its no fun when someone disengages.
well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
Sure, then lets have WCS back the way it was, and let us all do it. No double standards, no 'you can run away from a fight but only if you're rich and can nano'. Problem solved, no nerf required.
Somehow people seem against that notion. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:29:00 -
[921]
how long for the 'lachesis is overpowered!' thread?
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Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:29:00 -
[922]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win?
Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD.
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up...
I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game...
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Jengo Phatt
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:30:00 -
[923]
Edited by: Jengo Phatt on 25/07/2008 17:30:21 If this makes it to TQ, could we please also adjust the following:
Shield Tanks: Base at around 800dps tanked, with full HG Crystal set, Officer X-Large Shield Booster and Officer SBA Armor Tanks (active): Base at around 800 dps tanked, with Amarr Navy EANM and two Officer Large Reppers Armor Tanks (buffer): No more than 100.000 effective HP, with T2 Trimarks and Amarr Navy EANMs
And while you are at it, you could also reduce Projectile Turrets dps some more.
OK, thx!
Seriously: Was that idea pitched to the CSM? Or players with real experience (doesn't matter if it is GoonSwarm, BoB, whoever)? Basing a 'nerf' around extremely expensive mods/implants is not the way to go CCP (come on, >4bil so that a Vaga goes 4km/s?!?).
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:31:00 -
[924]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Thanks for ending solo pvp guys.
CCP <3's the blob
This sure seems to be a game change that will benefit "Max" doesn't it, since it will have the effect of not allowing ANY impediment to BOB's superblob (except bring bigger superblob) won't it? I don't really like nanos, but these changes basically mean the END of any form of "hit and run" warfare.
We all know that bob=ccp.
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Samurai Okie
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:31:00 -
[925]
NERF BAT AGAIN...why do you always nerf...can't you guys just improve stuff...if you were trying to make this game a bit more realistic you wouldnt nerf anything...in reall life you don't get nerfed...you get tecnological advances that put you ahead of your enemy...why cant you do that and give up nerffing...You can even make little Nation news bullitens about latest tecnological advances and stuff...that would make the carebears happy. You've also taken the nerfing to far..Yes nerf pollys..but why make moduals that have no inherent interaction between each other stack...and rigs should never have had a stacking penalty in the first place...
Also if you spend billions on going insanly fast...Then why the hell not..your the one whos put the time and effert into developing your skills and the fitting so you guys at ccp have no right to take away what people have spent years developing.
Why cant you dust off the buff wand occasionally...why do you always have to make people want to leave the game by ruining another perfectly good game mechanic...just because people cant be inavative doesnt mean you have to hold there hand...
Now please CCP don't proove to me that you guys can't be inovative. All your making is a Blob war.
Okie
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[926]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: PeacefullNub AFs boost is good. But please give retribution -1 high +1 med, so it can actualy use AB and new scrambler.
This is not a buff for AFs.
Read the graph.
AFs go from 1250m/s - 1750m/s base to 2200ms - 2500m/s.
True heavy tacklers from the looks of it.
C.
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[927]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Apertotes
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Cause when you tank, you stay there for the duration of the fight. When you nano, you leave when stuff turns south.
Its no fun when someone disengages.
well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
Sure, then lets have WCS back the way it was, and let us all do it. No double standards, no 'you can run away from a fight but only if you're rich and can nano'. Problem solved, no nerf required.
Somehow people seem against that notion.
hey, dont shoot me, i'm only the piano man!!! i was against the wcs nerf too, so it would be ok with me.
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HClChicken
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[928]
So you plan to fix lag by making people unsubscribe to this shitty game?
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[929]
Well CCP took their own sweet time, but it appears they were driving nails through the nerf bat for some extra nerfness.
Nanos were overpowered. Everyone knew it. The game will be better with these changes because people will have a chance to kill aggressors, not just make them disengage. The few blaster ships may need some attention, but overall I think CCP has gotten it right.
I didnt read the last 30 pages of this thread but I suppose it is full of Pathetic Legion tears? How long will they stay in charge |
Zamolxiss
Amarr FinFleet Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[930]
Edited by: Zamolxiss on 25/07/2008 17:33:53 Ola CCP
Very interesting blog tbh, and a very intense reply form the comunity.. entertaining to some extent
Most of the changes listed are realy interesting especialy the Scrambler change and the Web one, on the other hand the intensive nerf to speed mods and rigs looks like an overkill to me, without a doubt balanceing is required betwin all speed mods and rigs.. but such an extensive nerf is over the top, tho i really think that this is not the final face of the nano nerf.
What disappoints me though is neither of the above, but the actual change to MWD's witch keeps ignoring a basic design flaw.. that is the fitting penalty.. while for example the cloaks and the WCS's, witch are the first mods with fitting penaltys that come to mind, are both modules that deny the fight, the MWD is not, not with current design and not with yuor proposed change.. is this simple for anyone with common sense: as long as you have a module that acts as diferent things for diferent ships you NEED to have usage related penalitis.. nuff said..
Please have a look at this MWD Change Proposal is something copiled by me a little time ago that addresses exactly this and tell me if i'm wrong and why..
That beeing said, good job CCP keep working on it and i'm sure a cool compromise is attainable. Zam
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Skipdog
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 -
[931]
Originally by: gavhriel EVE was dominated by small gangs of nano hacs and recons and every new player that joined the game found out that he needs 1 year+ of trainning to be actualy any good at pvp. After the changes you might actually have a chance in an assault frig to kill a hac :)
I'm a new player and acknowledge that my opinion...well, doesn't matter. But here it is anyways. What I have learned in my first few weeks in 0.0 space is that if you want to fly in small gangs and have any chance to DO anything, you have one type of ship to fly: nanos. Otherwise, join a fleet, and realize that the only thing that affects the outcome of battles, is pure circumstance(we have more ships than you and a better fleet composition) or FC decisions(as in, the FC makes a mistake and we die, or the FC decides we can't take on THAT fleet, so we simply leave). The "action" of fleet battles for me so far, has been "oooh lets see what solo moron we can happen to tackle and then pod with 8973943 ships" or "OH CRAP WE JUST GOT JUMPED BY A SUPERIOR FLEET! OH NOES!" and to me, it just isn't that fun.
Small gang roaming is fun(if you have nano ships). Why should nano ships be the only ones you can fly if you want to have small roaming gang fun? |
Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 -
[932]
Edited by: Veldya on 25/07/2008 17:33:24
Originally by: BuIIseye
Originally by: Veldya
Yeah, because hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage doesn't need fixing, does it? Missiles didn't need a stealth boost, they needed a loud freaking bandwagon boost.
Missile damage is reduced based on speed and target painters don't really help because they don't address the speed element while you have more options to improve the tracking difficulties.
No, you missunderstand, hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage because of the speed is the same as missing with gun's and drone not having enough speed to keep up with it's target. Now with the MWD being "nerfed", afterburning ships will still be able to elude guns with the use of tracking disruptors (even while webbed), while missiles will reach and hit for full damage anytime, everytime (because defenders don't work as they should and smartbombs are fairly rare in non-capital combat and don't brush off all incoming missiles)
While it may not be a big difference on paper, its a increase in effectiveness on the field, so basicaly missile ships > the rest, and alot of people will start training for caldari. Missile boats are already very good, just underestimated because not all the people that uses them know what they are doing.
And target painter isn't specific for missile boats only, nor is it the solution for missile boats against nanoship, ever tried webbing your target?
The problem is rockets and light missiles are by design the Caldari weapon of choice against the fastest ships and there is nothing a pilot can do, no rig or implant combo that can change the fact that EVERY missile will always hit for ZERO damage.
Their damage is crap to begin with, they are designed for frigate based combat but you have HACs with massive resists and better than cruiser stats that can't be damaged by anti-frigate weapons.
It is just broken, it is WAY too easy to push a ship into the no-damage zone.
Tracking works very differently. You can be going 30km/s and get hit for full damage depending on your direction, you have to actually force the guns to track faster than their tracking to cause them issues. Someone can fly straight into a missile and avoid all the damage, missiles typically have a significantly faster velocity than their explosion velocity, so by definitition their payload is worse than their propellant.
They nerfed the crap out of the missiles because of fast ships and then made the nightmare that is nano ships. There is just no counter to them other than other nano ships. It is not the basis of EVE to have one type of ship dominate so many ship classes by default with one build type. Having something that out of balance is bad for the game. Everyone forced to nano is not the answer.
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Nevada Tan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 -
[933]
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win?
Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD.
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up...
I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game...
Why don't you implode your alliance about it?
Again.
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 -
[934]
Pulled myself together now.
I'm extremely frustrated, I've invested all my skilltraining so far in blasterboats, specifically thorax and taranis and now they're getting bum****ed so hard.
This is extremely stupid.
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Kay Han
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 -
[935]
Edited by: Kay Han on 25/07/2008 17:35:04 this nerf is just.... i cant ****ing believe it... yes nano was overpowered cause every bugger and his mom was flying a nanoed ship...
but THIS is just a slap in the face of every blasterboat pilot... ohh and lets see how this effects teh vaga, cause it¦s only defense IS speed.
concratz CCP. you just proved that you guys still can¦t do something right
/me claps
Originally by: CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
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Zilkin
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 -
[936]
For roaming gangs nanoships are usually the superior option mainly for their ability to disengage. You can take much bigger risks with them than you can do with slow moving fleet which will get trapped and utterly obliterated much more easily. Has this shattered the balance that blog was talking about though ? Not in my opinion yes speed setups are now more popular for small scale skirmishes but all bigger battles are still decided by "normal" ships.
Speed fits have supported solo/small gang pvp while not becoming even close the only setups used in pvp. On the other hand this change might unbalances the situation heavily in favor of non-speed tanked ships.
Anyway I will reserve my final judgment to after actually seeing this in effect on the test server. This might be ok if speed fits still remain viable option but cut the speeds tad too much and Drakes for all it is. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 -
[937]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth To quote CCP in a recent press statement 'a bunch of T1 frigs will always be able to kill that expensive T2 ship'. I don't see a problem with that, even when I am the one owning that T2 ship. This is a social game, not a personalised version of Unreal Tournament.
I don't have a problem with that, if those frigates earn the kill.
Prime example, 6 newbies, all with Drake capability. If those 6 fly Drakes, they shouldn't earn a kill over a better piloted Ishtar hovering at the edge of scram range - if 5 of those newbies get in T1 frigates with points and webs, and bum rush the guy to web him, that remaining Drake should gank him pretty fast.
Skill earns kills, not ship match ups.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 -
[938]
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Say what?
How can you say 'tiny corp' and 'only strategy is numbers' in the same breath?
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spiked amarr
Dark Tornado
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 -
[939]
Edited by: spiked amarr on 25/07/2008 17:34:35 This is insanely Stupid if you get a ship to go "Ludicrous" speed its because the pilot has spent some SERIOUS cash doing so theres not many pilots that do it anyways. Also theres not really a whole lot expensive a Vaga can kill maybe like cruiser some battlecruisers all by its self it needs damage dealers to help it besides i think its fair if a vaga/ inty gets into webbing range of a rapier its screwed they jsut need to stay away from them is all
My votes NO
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Nikuno
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:35:00 -
[940]
Just for the sake of clarity, with the alteration of all MWD's to 500% bost, you're saying that the benefit of named/faction MWD's will now be they hit your capacitor less hard? Or maybe they don't bloom your signature radius so much? And if the nay-sayers are right about blasterboats being hit too hard without the ability to slow their targets so well with the reduced webs (which I like the sound of tbh) will the tracking on blasters be buffed accordingly so that type of ship remains viable?
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:36:00 -
[941]
Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh. -
DesuSigs |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:36:00 -
[942]
Originally by: lebrata In every game i have ever played older more experianced and better trained/equipped players have always been able to bet newer less skilled and equipped players, eve is the only game that already breaks that rule but this new nerf is making a form of pvp and ship type almost obsolete and not worth flying.
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not on the general case, but regardless of what other games do (and yes I do know about them) EVE can do better. Every level-based game I've been in it's 'get to level 50, then you can PvP' or 'lets have PvP-only chars that are already max level'. EVE has no levels and that's a great thing, but in so doing it has to ensure that new players can still contribute effectively. If, and I stress if, it were the case that nano-ships rule the battlefield and can't be touched by normal ships (and I've seen in-game evidence in both directions), then that is wrong, because they're expensive and have no inexpensive counter.
I'm not convinced the changes makes anything obsolete. Speed is still perfectly possible from the numbers I've seen on the blog.
If the only way to win in EVE is reduced to who has more ISK and has been in the game longer, then we might as well all quit PvP right now and go into trading. I say that without bias or direct relevance to the blog because I know plenty seem to think that 0.0 blob warfare is resolved that way. Player skill both individually and at the tactical, logistical and strategic level should determine who wins. That's the goal we should aim for. I don't think we've achieved it yet. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Entelechia
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:38:00 -
[943]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh.
This whole argument is stupid. This isn't World of EVEcraft. You sign up for consensual PvP the second you log in to EVE. If you don't like it, go play something else, or hug a station. The second you enter space, you've just said "Okay, I am ready to PvP" whether you realize it or not.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 -
[944]
Originally by: Entelechia
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh.
This whole argument is stupid. This isn't World of EVEcraft. You sign up for consensual PvP the second you log in to EVE. If you don't like it, go play something else, or hug a station. The second you enter space, you've just said "Okay, I am ready to PvP" whether you realize it or not.
Well, people mean it in terms of individual incidents. A particular instance of combat can be unconsensual, while on a greater level you consent by undocking. -
DesuSigs |
Bo Bojangles
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 -
[945]
- Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP.
Someone is clearly out of touch with the Eve pvp community.
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Tiirae
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 -
[946]
people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that:
- it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills
so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:41:00 -
[947]
Let me explain this another way CCP
SPEED = ANTI LAG
It is the ONLY defense against lag, and not much of one at that.
Otherwise NO one would jump into a hostile camp.... but again maybe thats what you want?
PL and many others use speed to ALLOW us to fight, not a means of fighting. How else could we ever get past a camp with 2-3 x our numbers?
We jump into, MWD out of range, and wait for the lag to catch up, then start fighting.
I am your customer, I don't want these changes.... we want you to put your effort towards reducing lag, better game design so the Blob is reduced, finding something besides POS warfare, giving people a reason to hold space, and fixing Black Op's (ok that one is personal)
Stop focusing on specific issues, look at the big picture and your real problems.
Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:42:00 -
[948]
Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that:
- it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills
so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
People that didn't read the dev blog means you. The Quality of the MWD will no longer affect speed and of couse it has skills its most likely an all V pilot that he us using on Sisi you dolt. Peoeple are griping about it because it has a full ****ing HG snake set and T2 Rigs Like a 4 billion isk setup.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 -
[949]
Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that:
- it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills
so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
He said he has snakes and maxed skills, and if you read the dev blog, they are aiming to make all mwds the same speed - T1 MWds are just as fast as gistum a-types, the difference between modules will be sig radius and other things, not speed.
Try again.
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 -
[950]
Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that:
- it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills
so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
after the patch tech1 mwd adds same speed as gist and that is with maxed dev skills
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 -
[951]
Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that:
- it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills
so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
Where does it say no skills?
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 -
[952]
I do find it funny all the people saying omg nanno whiners... why do you think ccp is even considering nerfing this? because they just thought 1 day omg shipz are to fast... no n00bs whined and started crying... so now n00bs have an equal opprotunity to kill people who have been skilling and playing for multiple years...
either way i think its kinda messed up... people spend billions and billions of isk + years of skilling to perfect their "ludacris" speeds.... its not like a 10 day old char will be able to really afford to do this...
i propose the next nerf would be aimed to increase lag so that no one has the advantage.... if you alll have 15 minutes of module lag you will all be equal... oh wai.....
ps im sure glad ive spent years training to fly fast nannos lets just keep taking care of new players instead of long time dedicated customers....
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 -
[953]
Originally by: Bo Bojangles
- Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP.
Someone is clearly out of touch with the Eve pvp community.
Why? You're afraid you might have to think about a new fit? CCP took a look at the AB vs MWD issue and decided, quite rightly, that every PvPer under the sun fits an MWD. This implies a broken game design. When a single module is required on almost every ship, in a game aimed at modular ship fits for flexibility, you got something wrong.
Alternatively, we dispense with modules altogether and everyone just flies a ship type. Welcome to Unreal Tournament in space.
Someone is clearly out of touch with the notion of game design. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:44:00 -
[954]
Originally by: HotSeat Let me explain this another way CCP
SPEED = ANTI LAG
It is the ONLY defense against lag, and not much of one at that.
Otherwise NO one would jump into a hostile camp.... but again maybe thats what you want?
PL and many others use speed to ALLOW us to fight, not a means of fighting. How else could we ever get past a camp with 2-3 x our numbers?
We jump into, MWD out of range, and wait for the lag to catch up, then start fighting.
I am your customer, I don't want these changes.... we want you to put your effort towards reducing lag, better game design so the Blob is reduced, finding something besides POS warfare, giving people a reason to hold space, and fixing Black Op's (ok that one is personal)
Stop focusing on specific issues, look at the big picture and your real problems.
this.
nanos are a great way to fight against blobbing
and CCP does want to reduce blobbing..
if this change goes in... it does the exact other thing. ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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HakanSherif
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:45:00 -
[955]
Every MMO i played so far with the eexception of WoW, did a smilar rewamp at some point listening to clueless idiots, then they died horribly. The scale of changes presented on the blog is very smilar to CU for SWG which successfully managed to bring down sub's numbers from 700k to 50k. Guess what? All those ppl who wanted CU quit the game.
Yea go ahead implement these, and remove the only actual skill required flight style from game, remove the danger from 0.0 where both sides with blobs can sit and shoot each other and the outcome is determined by who has more numbers or who lags less.
Couple of times i decided to leave the game becoz of stupid bugs and stupid customer service but then i changed my mind, coz there is nothing good out there to play however if these changes happen there wont be a reason left for me to play it other than spending time with friends. Well my accounts are paid for 6 or so months so i will wait and see but no more GTC's. I will just spend all the isk i have on exotic dancers.:)
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Flem'berk
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:46:00 -
[956]
OMG do the maths before complaining....
Vaga today no implants but full t2 fit hits about 5989m/s (straight line) factor in stacking changes to polycarb's and result is still a respectable 5090.6m/s factoring in the changes to mwd's and altering setup for improved turning speed it should hit 4469.5 m/s or more. Factoring in snake sets gives very painful numbers but cant have everything...
But now then a CNR that does apox the same speed 6k m/s now with a snake set will end up little over 2.88k m/s that a fair balance if ever I saw one.
*** this is rough maths don't make me get out my abacus
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:46:00 -
[957]
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
----------------- Friends Forever |
Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 -
[958]
I see only two significant problems with nano ships at the moment - the Sacriledge and to a much lesser extent the Ishtar. They are problematic because they do not depend on tracking to do damage - Missiles and Drones.
Want to know the difference between a 10km/sec Vagabond and a 5km/sec Vagabond? Straight line speed. That's it. In fact, a Vagabond fitted with a single T1 polycarbon and T1 ambit (falloff bonus rig) is arguably better at solo pvp than one fitted with 2 T2 polycarbons. Neither can hit anything if they orbit faster than 3.5 km/sec. The 10km/sec Vagabond can more easily burn out of a bubble after jumping into a gate camp. Neither could or can permanently run their MWD under most setups.
The multiple aspects of these changes - huge speed reductions, huge reduction in web effectiveness - have two impacts: Again missiles (Caldari) are buffed. Drones (Gallente for the most part) are buffed. Minmatar is nerfed twice over.
If you want a new counter to nano-ships, the answer is not to come down with a heavy hand on what was always considered the best of them - the Vagabond - and do the same with ships that already are the counter - Rapiers and Huginns. Remember the Target Painter, the module that has no practical use in PvP whatsoever (doesn't even increase the signature radius of POS modules)? Why not simply give that module a % reduction to MWD effectiveness?
Personally, the only ships that need fixed at the moment are the Sac and Ishtar. Ironically, the proposed changes make them ultimately better, while simply making Minmatar the most worthless race in EVE. Let's review Minmatar briefly:
1. Worst capital ships in both classes (Dread and Carrier) by far, due to damage and tanking ability 2. The Tempest - once considered among the best Battleships - takes the T2 ammo nerf (reducing range and damage), the HP buff (reduces the importance of Alpha strike), Tracking and Range nerfs (can't hit anything moving with T2 ammo while fitting a damage buffer of any sort) - is now almost as bad in Fleet as a Raven, and worse than a Raven for POS shooting. The same changes negatively impact the Muninn. 3. Smaller ship classes pretty much rely on speed and agility to pick their fights - The Rapier and Huginn considered among the best recons for small gang work because of web effectiveness.
The Vagabond has been considered the best HAC at penetrating deep into hostile territory while still being able to bring a significant amount of damage. Yet, the Cerberus, Sacriledge, and Ishtar can all fit a slower, nano setup and make full speed orbits without any damage reduction.
What are the benefits of flying the Vagabond and Rapier/Huginn after these changes? The former won't be able to burn out of a hostile bubble camp, and the latter won't be able to keep anything smaller than a plated Battleship from burning back to a gate.
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Cat Gilligan
Caldari Blair Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 -
[959]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt Edited by: ZW Dewitt on 25/07/2008 17:47:35
You can still do hit and run warfare, you just have to use smaller ships now. THE HORROR!
Only a BLOB of small ships can kill anything except other small ships.
Do we really want more blobs?
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 -
[960]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Die To Blobs 10 times out of 10???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
Fixed it for you.
Black Hand.
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[961]
CCP, the intent of the changes is welcomed.
I think you need to find a good balance between regular T2, T2 + rigs and T2+rigs+implants setups nerf.
A nano ship should remain nano, nerfing overdrive and nanofiber bonuses that are part of any standard nano fit should be less severe. Because if you nerf speed tanking, be that of a HAC or an interceptor, you're boosting all other ships that don't have speed but have tank, even T1 battle cruisers. Basically you may create a much bigger imbalance, where T1 ships start cause too much damage on much more expensive T2 ships that are meant to do what they do.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[962]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: ZW Dewitt Edited by: ZW Dewitt on 25/07/2008 17:47:35
You can still do hit and run warfare, you just have to use smaller ships now. THE HORROR!
Small ships (frigs) are ineffective at killing anything more than a couple of ships.
I sure the hell wouldnt fly a small ship against PL, your life expectancy once you become targetable is about 2 seconds
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[963]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
How does one get kills without committing to fights? ---
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TheTrueHorror
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[964]
Love the changes.
A good way to promote guerilla warfare might be to get rid of local. This would allow small gangs to utilise stealth more effectively for hit and run tactics (tracking an enemy across systems would be much more difficult without the local window). It would also promote more engagements as forces would not be immediately aware of the size of an opposing gang from simply glancing at the local window. You can keep the local chat window there, just get rid of the player list and the number of players in system.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[965]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
So the fix for flawed game design (blobs) is broken game mechanics (ludicrous speed)? Err.. let's not even start to go into that.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[966]
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up...
I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game...
These comments are extremely amusing given I have had the displeasure of seeing 30-60 man nano-gank squads, from your alliance and ex-alliance members, the vast majority of the whiners on this thread. So much for the small man anti-blob, aye?
I think nano***s fly nano not so much for the small scale combat but because they are so effective at avoiding the consequences of conflict. You want to kill without the risk of reprisal.
You guys just want to rack up cheap kills in your cookie cutter builds. You are preaching from a pedestal you have no right to be standing on.
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Skipdog
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 -
[967]
Originally by: HakanSherif Yea go ahead implement these, and remove the only actual skill required flight style from game, remove the danger from 0.0 where both sides with blobs can sit and shoot each other and the outcome is determined by who has more numbers or who lags less.
I was under the impression that expensive nano-fitted ships "remove the danger from 0.0".
From this statement, it seems like you want the outcome determined by....who has the nano-ships?? Doesn't that just sound wrong to you guys and imply that maybe the ONLY SHIP WHO CAN VIABLY RUN IN SMALL GANGS AND ESCAPE FROM ENGAGEMENTS should be nerfed?
I'm not saying I agree with all the changes all at one time, but don't some of you think that some type of nano-nerf is in order? Yeah, it is fun flying a ship that can escape engagements at-will. That whole concept seems flawed to me though. Yay there is one type of ship that gives you a good chance to survive while in a small gang!! That honestly doesn't sound wrong? |
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:52:00 -
[968]
Originally by: Tillakna About time, much respect CCP!
...now time to go back to our old days pvping, yarr!
Old days pvping? You've had 100 kills in your entire EVE-life, that's what some of us do in a month. GTFO. You can have your mining and ratting, just let us keep our damn nanoboats.
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:52:00 -
[969]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know?
No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh.
ah no, if you start a fight, then its consentual to you, and non-consentual to the one you are attacking.
if he disengages by running (or any other means), then its consentual to him, and non-consentual to you.
it needs to be that way, or else balance is gone.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:53:00 -
[970]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 17:55:17 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 17:53:17
Originally by: ZW Dewitt Edited by: ZW Dewitt on 25/07/2008 17:47:35
You can still do hit and run warfare, you just have to use smaller ships now. THE HORROR!
This.
The changes benefit small ships a whole lot, btw.
I like them in their entirety, although I never had a issue with nanoships. Stupid people did, but stupid people will have issues with any good tactic.
People claiming you couldn't hit Vagabonds and stuff will have even more fun hitting AB setups.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:53:00 -
[971]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
QFT ... I could flush the toilet with the amount of tears in this thread. By the looks of it almost all of Pathetic Legion will be unsubscribing in a couple of months... oh the joy |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:54:00 -
[972]
Originally by: Cpt Branko The changes benefit small ships a whole lot, btw.
I'm quite looking forward to trying out the new AFs, for one. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[973]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt Edited by: ZW Dewitt on 25/07/2008 17:47:35
You can still do hit and run warfare, you just have to use smaller ships now. THE HORROR!
Uhh, HACS and recons are already smaller than the BS blob.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[974]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece QFT ... I could flush the toilet with the amount of tears in this thread. By the looks of it almost all of Pathetic Legion will be unsubscribing in a couple of months... oh the joy
How about you post with your carebear alliance ratting main instead?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[975]
Originally by: Veldya
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up...
I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game...
These comments are extremely amusing given I have had the displeasure of seeing 30-60 man nano-gank squads, from your alliance and ex-alliance members, the vast majority of the whiners on this thread. So much for the small man anti-blob, aye?
I think nano***s fly nano not so much for the small scale combat but because they are so effective at avoiding the consequences of conflict. You want to kill without the risk of reprisal.
You guys just want to rack up cheap kills in your cookie cutter builds. You are preaching from a pedestal you have no right to be standing on.
Actually its because we do not want pvp to become a static unmoving blob vs blob slug fest that is decided by the team with the most or any ships left at the end.
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[976]
60% webbers? Turret BS won't be able to track jack shit up close. Looks like I'll be flying a torp raven.
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Horeta
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[977]
a really really great change. cruiser sized ships should never reach frig sized speeds. roaming is not dead, only now normal ships have a chance against nanohacs. |
deadok
Amarr RUS Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 -
[978]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Why? You're afraid you might have to think about a new fit? CCP took a look at the Miner I vs 150mm Autocannon I issue and decided, quite rightly, that every PvPer under the sun fits an 150mm.This implies a broken game design.
fixed.
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viper zulu
Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:00:00 -
[979]
You will be able to defend your space in 0.0 very easy these days. If a big enough gang comes into it, camp those chokepoints with bubbles and titans. It will be worth it. Big Carrier and Titan Gangs 4TW.
<--- Wishes I still had my titan:(
Looks like Ravens and Drakes are once again back on top.
Perfectly Fitted Nano Macherial = 5B Isk Snake Set = 3B ISK Minni Pilot Account = 14.95 per month CCP ruining the game for thousands = Priceless
Where Can I sign up BOB, I will listen to the FC's cause I am sure they will train me to be ahead of changes like this.
MAX Policy= if we struggle; don't worry, just sign on a dev account and and fix it.
These are my views and dont reflect on my corp and alliance in anyway.
Proud Member of Omega Enterprises |
Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:01:00 -
[980]
Originally by: Terastra
Quote: There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships.
yes, because every alliance has 15-20 huggin/rapier pilots just sitting around for when your 20,40, 50+ man nano*** gang shows up.
Have you ever been in a non-carebear Alliance?
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Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:01:00 -
[981]
Ok i tried to read the whole thread but it just isn't possible. now to the issue:
The idea behind the changes are most centanly the reight ones, but you have to look at the source of a problem to understand it.
so the question is: "why are nanofits so popular?"
the answer i find to that question is gatecamps. the only time i fly fast (nanoed) ships is in 0.0 or in areas of lowsec where i expect gatecamps. espacialy the zerospace bubble camps are almost impossible to survive in a small gang (or godforbid solo) unless you are going fast enough so that you are out of tackel range once they are able to lock you. if you look at the numbers you will find that nanoships don't do alot of damage and no skilled BS pilot will ever be killed by a solo nanoHAC, while when you are a lone pilot engaged by a gang it doesn't realy matter what they fly you will just die. 3 t1 cuiser are enogh to take down a BS, smal gangs of 5-8 ppl have no problem what so ever. so it's not the fighting power ppl are complining about, so what is it? what is to terribly wrong with the nanoed ships? (btw i do think a clone-ship setup worth 5+ billion isk should be supirior) bare in mind that a HAC can't beat a BC in a pure Tank/Gank engadement.
however, so if you find a way to survive (bubble) gatecamps without the need of "Ludicrous speed" ppl would fly less nanoships because the need would no longer be there.
Still i like the changes somehow, but if you implement them please give a new way to survive camps. ------------------ Believing is not wanting to know the truth! |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:01:00 -
[982]
Fact: If you are pro pvp alliance (lol tri), you must fly nano and engage with less ships than the enemy gang.
Fact: If you are noob carebear alliance (lol tri), you must fly slow ships and engage with more ships than the enemy gang.
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:01:00 -
[983]
Edited by: Moon Kitten on 25/07/2008 18:02:16
- False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are several.
Example: There are only two states of combat in Eve:
- the current state of unbalanced nanospeeds
or
- big blobs
This is not true, it is in fact false. There are far more than two types of combat scenarios in Eve. Eve is not black or white, it is gray.
CCP made the right decision. I and the rest of player base will enjoy a more varied and interesting eve universe after this well deserved patch.
edit: Atsuko Ratu, hi five!
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:01:00 -
[984]
Originally by: Oku Kee'lus
Maybe only warp scramblers should be able to disable MWDs?
That's what they said.
This is boost to small ships which want to fight close-range, as they can prevent the MWD away->'lol, die frig/AF/cruiser/HAC' behaviour when in a BS (which was incredibly effective and rendered any speed-tanking impossible in webrange).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Flem'berk
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:02:00 -
[985]
Originally by: AntonioBanderas you will **** up, as usual. what will happen to stabber? minmatar recons? Nano hacs in general are a bad thing, not ment to go 4+ km/s, but vaga is designed to go that fast. **** that, a DEV EFT warrior? WTF, do you know how stupidly pricy that stuff is? Do devs play eve at all? Intys? What, are we supposed to tank them? So help me God, if i won't be able to speed tank t1 missiles in my vaga, i'm quiting this stupid game. It's broken as it is, and you keep on breaking stuff.
HINT: do the maths vaga will still go zoom.... honest try it on sisi on monday...
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:03:00 -
[986]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 25/07/2008 18:03:57
Originally by: Entelechia Edited by: Entelechia on 25/07/2008 17:15:16
Originally by: Aenis Veros How about keeping everything as-is and just changing the warp-scrambler into an anti-MWD module, eg with scripts:
Warp Scrambler, changes from a continual-effect module to a "stop"-module (think manual mode with a long reactivation timer): a) -50% range (5km with t2), Disables MWD b) +50% range,(15km with t2), Reduces target MWD-speed by 90% instantly c) Unscripted, -80% range (2km with t2), Disables MWD & Reduces target MWD-speed by 50% instantly.
It no longer stops any ships from warping away, it's 100% designed to stop MICROWARPDRIVES. Make it have a 20 second delay before it can be used again.
The scrambler in this case isn't a continual point, but a stop-module. You use it on one target, it can still warp away, but it's designed to work against nano-ships. It's very short-range so you either have to get up close and personal, or be in an Arazu.
We have something like this already. We call them stasis webifiers. In fact, we even have ships that are really good at catching nanoships and stopping them cold. They are called the Rapier and the Huginn.
I said before, this is not nano nerf, this is a hidden Caldari boost. They are always cried for , and now get it they boost. Now the ships cant catch a Falcon who sit 200+ off range. Now the missile can beat anything, and now will be come the Caldari era. They hold the best attribute Achura class, half time learning for the missile skills, and ECM. Anyone want playing another classes ? Ask CCP.
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Terastra
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[987]
Quote: Have you ever been in a non-carebear Alliance?
yes, the problem is we never had an issue since when a nano*** gang came around we just nano***ged them back.
essentially what the nano***s are saying, have been saying forever, is their game choice or how they think the game needs to work is god and everyone else should be forced into the specific counter for their game style or die.
guess what, the shoe is now on the other foot. adapt or die.
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Dwindlehop
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[988]
"Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for."
I'm not sure I understand how interceptors will operate without being able to speed tank. Are they only intended for use against larger ship classes?
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[989]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Now the ships cant catch a Falcon who sit 200+ off range.
Everyone has falcons of their own, only nubbins fly single-race fleets.
Originally by: Cutesmile
Now the missile can beat anything
Ahahahah....ahahah....LOL, right.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
silken mouth
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[990]
Quote: i would also like to add that instead of giving scramblers simply the abilitiy to disrupt mwds, i would prefer a script for that. Said script should be usable by disruptors as well, however, due scrambling strength, on would need 2 scripted disruptors or 1 scripted scrambler for the job. As a result you can de-mwd someone by scrambling or double disrupting him, but in order to keep him from warping you would need another unscripted scrambler/disruptor.
You implemented scripts for tactical variety, you should use your own tools!
This plus:
standard webber: 90% speed reduction, range 5000m, scripted webber 40% speed reduction range 15km.
you want to nail him on the spot? you have to expose yourself to Smartbombs and neuts. you want to play it safe? You better bring dedicated ships/ lots of friends and he still gonna have some speed..
Still a vaga with t2 polycarbs and a full snakeset should outrun any t2 mod t1 rigs no-implant ceptor with ease!
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[991]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece QFT ... I could flush the toilet with the amount of tears in this thread. By the looks of it almost all of Pathetic Legion will be unsubscribing in a couple of months... oh the joy
This nerf is going to kill us like the wcs nerf killed Burn Eden.
Well, it might be a bit longer then two months, possibly a short while after you have been kicked back to low sec. |
Uzuki Shootmenow
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:04:00 -
[992]
Nozh - I feel sad for you. You have no idea what you're doing.
My proposal is this. Remove all races from EVE but Caldari.
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VaderDSL
Caldari Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:05:00 -
[993]
I apologise if it has been said but you missed out the 15% Speed boost from a Skirmish Warfare mindlink, although you included the Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus, maybe there should be an additional entry saying 5% Velocity Bonus from the Skirmish Warfare Mindlink
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HakanSherif
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:05:00 -
[994]
Ppl who talks about speed with no experience amuses me, the top speed is important becoz w/o it u cant pass the web range, web nerf is irrevelant coz w/o enuf speed and acceleration you will be blob webbed.
Right now there is already enough counter measures for nano ships including the nano setups itself, right there is the answer that ppl who are complaining about nano's are total ******s coz while they claim nano is invincible they are unable to use the same tool. Coz using a nano fleet requires some skill and actual piloting which these ***gots lack and it seems now they made their way to CCP.
The only thing which holds a lil ground missiles but tbh missile boats can still be quite effective against nano setups and since there is no counter against missiles other than speed with the exception of situational defender missiles which are pretty useless otherwise.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:06:00 -
[995]
Originally by: Terastra
Quote: Have you ever been in a non-carebear Alliance?
yes, the problem is we never had an issue since when a nano*** gang came around we just nano***ged them back.
essentially what the nano***s are saying, have been saying forever, is their game choice or how they think the game needs to work is god and everyone else should be forced into the specific counter for their game style or die.
guess what, the shoe is now on the other foot. adapt or die.
So what do you do when a heavy tanked gang comes? Using heavy tanked ships yourself? Looks broken to me if you need heavy tanked ships to kill heavy tanked ships.
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:06:00 -
[996]
dear devs, if you are trying to fix the "ludacrious speed" stuff then please nerf snakes and other imps, deadspace and faction modules, but don't break the common t2 and t1 modules. if u are concerned with missiles not hitting fast ships, then boost missiles. Please understand that breaking the speed that can be achieved by t2 modules and t1 rigs u are not fixing ludicrous speeds. they will stay out there with snakes and rare fittings they will still be faster than everyone else. but the normal speeds that can be achieved with cheap fittings will be seriously nerfed.
On the webbers nerf, it's not fixing anything too. now any HAC who gets in my webber range of my trusty megathron is dead for sure. with the webber nerf it will have a chance to escape, and i don't like it :)
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:07:00 -
[997]
Originally by: viper zulu Where Can I sign up BOB, I will listen to the FC's cause I am sure they will train me to be ahead of changes like this.
MAX Policy= if we struggle; don't worry, just sign on a dev account and and fix it.
The proposed nano nerf has clearly pushed this player over the edge. They have great drugs for insane people these days. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:07:00 -
[998]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/07/2008 18:12:59 Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/07/2008 18:12:23
Did you know you could setup a non-nanoed Vagabond to do more dps than a Zealot, while having more effective hit points, and being faster?
If the Zealot in it's current form is considered a good HAS, then by what mystery is the Vagabond going to be utter crap, even if nano-fits were completely unusable? (which they won't be)
Here's a few T2 setups, each with 2 damage mods, lv5 skills, standard gang bonuses, T2 thermal drones, tackling mods, no rigs, no implants, no faction:
800mm plated Ion Deimos: 1955m/s, 674 dps, 9km effective range, 30.4k effective hit points, huge cap issues
Single LSE 425mm vagabond: 3275m/s, 554 dps, 17km effective range, 31.5k EHT, no signifiant cap issues.
Single LSE HAM cerberus: 1650m/s, 440 dps, 45km optimal range, 37.8k EHT, few cap issues.
800mm plated heavy pulse Zealot: 1955m/s, 510 dps, 16km effective range, 28.4k EHT, huge cap issues.
Does the Vagabond strike you as underpowered, when fitted like hte other HAS? It looks pretty balanced to me. ------------------------------------------
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1Of9
Gallente The Circle STYX.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:07:00 -
[999]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
lol'z go learn tanking skills now.
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Shubs
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:08:00 -
[1000]
Worst nerf ever, apart from the GTC nerf costs people twice as much nice work CCP Pack it up, Pack it in, come on let it begin!
*- Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo -*
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:09:00 -
[1001]
All other concerns aside, I just want to bring up one that is gotten little or no comment.
Interdictors.
While its nice that they appear a little higher up on the "new mwd speeds" chart, they are still getting hit by two speed nerfs in a row and will need looking at, the previous nerf dropped the amount of pilots willing to fly them significantly and the HICs do not replace their functionality, nor should they – Interdictors currently have a unique role that they often struggle to accomplish properly due to lack of survivability.
Not to mention the Flycatcher needs either its base speed or its lowslot configuration looked at, and the Eris’s split weapon system / bonuses needs a rethink.
In general they all need higher survivability, such as a HP boost, resistances change, smaller sig, even a bonus to afterburner speed would do, there are many things that could be done to make dictors less of a flying coffin and they need some love.
Other thoughts:
CCP should really look into taking the obvious route towards balancing speed that has been waiting around all these years in the form of a not-very-useful-in-pvp module...
MWD = maximum speed but with drawbacks. AB = High(er than current) speed useful in PVP and with a high overload bonus for when you really need to run.
This combined with the proposed change to warp scrams would make a lot of sense, since there should be a viable counter to such a module, and right now there is no alternative to a MWD. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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deadok
Amarr RUS Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:09:00 -
[1002]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Thanks, I think you made my point for me. If you insist on thinking inside the box and are unable to go beyond what everyone else does, then no wonder you don't get the problem.
yay, i even have an ab fitted rr bs. ab fitted logistics are viable choice too. even ab fitted inty has a role in empire/losec pvp. but in 0.0 you got a bubbles, you got a 20bs's snipe fleet, that comes @ 150km, pwns everything in bubble, pwns every mwding inty, and returns at pos.
as i posted before 3-4 bcs in that 20ppl bs gang it becomes virtually invincible - they can't be couch by inty - they'll be long dead, you can't drop your close bs's on their head with scanning covops - all your bs sitting in bubble.
currently i don't see any role for inty in a semi-large fleet xcept a scout (covops better in that role) or belt-hunter-buster (oh yeah, that is most valueble part of pvp in eve). same goes for af, cruisers, hc's(xcept sniper ones).
welcome to a new snipe era (with a blobs ofc, since it takes too long to kill even 1 bs)
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Agent OO1
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:09:00 -
[1003]
Ok nerf speed but remove local.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:10:00 -
[1004]
Edited by: Yaay on 25/07/2008 18:15:39
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion
Anyone surprised?!
Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win?
Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD.
Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers...
Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up...
I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game...
I'll turn the tides on every arguement you've made in this thread..... get better FCs/pilots and maybe you won't need a blob to counter a blob.
Ask Cliest how he took 50-70 hacs into 200 bruce and decimated them.
Ask me how I took 20-40 into 40-70 man IAC gangs and sustained an active on field fight for an hour until more help could arrive to do enough damage against their carriers.
Ask your mates in BE how they can take a few Ravens and some sensor dampeners and take on 20-30 man gangs.
Ask Myndpyer Richie how 2 people in feroxs can go against 10-12 TCF and comeout with over 2 bil in kills/loot w/o loss.
Ask MC how a 15 man BoB gang maneuvered around their 30-40 with bubbles and traded equal losses.
Get a clue dude.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:11:00 -
[1005]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
While I like the idea of the combined warp scram/mwd killer, I am also concerned about the already difficult to use blasterboats being made essentially useless.
This is especially worrisome since the Gallente have already been nerfed to high holy hell AND back with the drone and damp nerfs. Killing the ability of our blasterboats to get in close would be a Bad Thing (tm).
May I humbly suggest that instead of nerfing the AB's down to near worthlessness, you BOOST the AB's while leaving MWD's where they are in terms of speed increase percent? Basically make the AB's a practical choice for PVP use. This would allow a blasterboat to simply slap on a big honking AB instead of a MWD, be just a bit slower, but be able to still be effective once they have closed range.
Other than that, I am happy to see the "Ludicrous Speed" issues potentially resolved. As someone who has focused on support and E-War it's nice to be able to compete again.
Now, can we talk about increasing the e-war bonuses on the Celestis, Lachesis, Arazu and Keres? Because nerfing Damps without giving an increased bonus to the role-specific ship meant to fit them is another Bad Thing (tm).
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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viper zulu
Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:14:00 -
[1006]
Yaay didn't you just loose a titan in your alliance? I think you need better FC's! |
Tempest Kane
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:14:00 -
[1007]
Well that was a waste of isk buying a HG snake set :/
Plugged in in last month, had some fun with it... useless now :P
IMHO if you pay 3-4bill for a set of snakes then you deserve the right to fly at them speeds purely down to the risk of asset loss you are taking, however i do think that speed is too powerful a game dynamic, as such the solution was to increase the ability of afterburning ceptors and allow for a web mod that has an area of effect dampening field on MWD's of say 15-25km so that small ships can be used in small gang warfair in a true tackler support role of the larget dps ships.
Anyways ill get over it... was never much of a vaga*** anyways. __________________________________________ - Tempest Kane, Band Of Brothers.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:14:00 -
[1008]
Originally by: Agent OO1 Ok nerf speed but remove local.
Breathe in, slowly exhale ... do this 10 times. Let it go.... let it go. |
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1009]
And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1010]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece QFT ... I could flush the toilet with the amount of tears in this thread. By the looks of it almost all of Pathetic Legion will be unsubscribing in a couple of months... oh the joy
This nerf is going to kill us like the wcs nerf killed Burn Eden.
If this patch goes through im joining burn eden... they must be bouncing off the walls trying to push this through.. shinra you could be hearing from me :p -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1011]
Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/07/2008 18:12:59 Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/07/2008 18:12:23
Did you know you could setup a non-nanoed Vagabond to do more dps than a Zealot, while having more effective hit points, and being faster?
If the Zealot in it's current form is considered a good HAS, then by what mystery is the Vagabond going to be utter crap, even if nano-fits were completely unusable? (which they won't be)
Here's a few T2 setups, each with 2 damage mods, lv5 skills, standard gang bonuses, T2 thermal drones, tackling mods, no rigs, no implants, no faction:
800mm plated Ion Deimos: 1955m/s, 674 dps, 9km effective range, 30.4k effective hit points, huge cap issues
Single LSE 425mm vagabond: 3275m/s, 554 dps, 17km effective range, 31.5k EHT, no signifiant cap issues.
Single LSE HAM cerberus: 1650m/s, 440 dps, 45km optimal range, 37.8k EHT, few cap issues.
800mm plated heavy pulse Zealot: 1955m/s, 510 dps, 16km effective range, 28.4k EHT, huge cap issues.
Does the Vagabond strike you as underpowered, when fitted like hte other HAS? It looks pretty balanced to me.
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Admiral Bear
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1012]
I had the sense to copy the contents of my GD thread that was guaranteed to be locked, so here it is:
The proposed changes will decrease the effectiveness of speed tanking on non-specialised ships. While ships such as the Vagabond will be slowed down, I expect they will still be able to reach speeds that allow for speed tanking. A T2 fitted Vagabond will still be able to outrun medium drones and will take mininmal damage from large missiles, and a faction/snake Vaga should still be able to reach interceptor speeds, just not faction/snake interceptor speeds.
Interceptors look to profit most from the widened speed gap between frigs and cruisers. They are seeing no reduction in base speed, and it really doesn't matter if your Crow now only goes 6km/s instead of 10 because there still won't be any non-inties that can catch up with you. The reduced effectiveness of webs may also make web range MWD frigs viable vs slower ships that are likely to be fitting Warp Disruptors rather than Scramblers.
The other factor that is harder to predict is the changes to warp scrambler mechanics. I'm sure we will see new tactics and setups arise to adapt to these changes, and various combinations of afterburners, microwarpdrives, webs and warp scramblers have the potential to be very powerful if used correctly. |
KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1013]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Did you know you could setup a non-nanoed Vagabond to do more dps than a Zealot, while having more effective hit points, and being faster?
If the Zealot in it's current form is considered a good HAS, then by what mystery is the Vagabond going to be utter crap, even if nano-fits were completely unusable? (which they won't be)
Here's a few T2 setups, each with 2 damage mods, lv5 skills, standard gang bonuses, T2 thermal drones, tackling mods, no rigs, no implants, no faction:
800mm plated Ion Deimos: 1955m/s, 674 dps, 9km effective range, 30.4k effective hit points, huge cap issues
Single LSE 425mm vagabond: 3275m/s, 554 dps, 17km effective range, 31.5k EHT, no signifiant cap issues.
Single LSE HAM cerberus: 1650m/s, 440 dps, 45km optimal range, 37.8k EHT, few cap issues.
800mm plated heavy pulse Zealot: 1955m/s, 510 dps, 16km effective range, 28.4k EHT, huge cap issues.
Does the Vagabond strike you as underpowered, when fitted like hte other HAS? It looks pretty balanced to me.
You left out the part where the vaga has to fight into falloff in order to have a 17km effective range. So 440 dps is closer to 250-300 DPS.
EFT != TQ
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:16:00 -
[1014]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 18:19:24
Originally by: deadok yay, i even have an ab fitted rr bs. ab fitted logistics are viable choice too. even ab fitted inty has a role in empire/losec pvp. but in 0.0 you got a bubbles, you got a 20bs's snipe fleet, that comes @ 150km, pwns everything in bubble, pwns every mwding inty, and returns at pos.
as i posted before 3-4 bcs in that 20ppl bs gang it becomes virtually invincible - they can't be couch by inty - they'll be long dead, you can't drop your close bs's on their head with scanning covops - all your bs sitting in bubble.
currently i don't see any role for inty in a semi-large fleet xcept a scout (covops better in that role) or belt-hunter-buster (oh yeah, that is most valueble part of pvp in eve). same goes for af, cruisers, hc's(xcept sniper ones).
welcome to a new snipe era (with a blobs ofc, since it takes too long to kill even 1 bs)
Yes but I think people are confusing three separate issues (granted they're inter-related, so I'd have been happier had CCP addressed all three at once). 1) ABs suck. They suck enough that almost everyone fits an MWD given the chance. 2) Nano-ships can run away from fights. If CCP wanted that, they'd have not changed WCS so everyone couldn't run away from fights. 3) Blobs and gatecamps combined promote... more blobs and gatecamps!
It's a deliberately short summary so I'm aware I'm over-simplifying it.
With regard to the AB issue alone, there was a time it was discussed that we'd no longer end up with the ridiculous case that you need one fit for missions and a completely different one for PvP, which promotes a separation between PvE and PvP, and there shouldn't be. A newbie out in a level 1 mission should be learning PvP on easy mode, and they don't.
As to the rest, I just find it sad that we don't have a good solution for blobs and gatecamps to go with this change. Overall I think if we had both, people would be happy enough and adapt. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:16:00 -
[1015]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Now, can we talk about increasing the e-war bonuses on the Celestis, Lachesis, Arazu and Keres? Because nerfing Damps without giving an increased bonus to the role-specific ship meant to fit them is another Bad Thing (tm).
Turning off MWD at range IS a increased bonus.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lord Testament
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:17:00 -
[1016]
nano nerf is great
and it's about time something happened about this nano madness
@nanonerf whines
adapt or die
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Tempest Kane
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:18:00 -
[1017]
Originally by: viper zulu
<--- Wishes I still had my titan:(
Originally by: viper zulu Yaay didn't you just loose a titan in your alliance? I think you need better FC's!
In fairness atleast they used their titan (-: __________________________________________ - Tempest Kane, Band Of Brothers.
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Nikita Alterana
Gallente Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:18:00 -
[1018]
Originally by: viper zulu You will be able to defend your space in 0.0 very easy these days. If a big enough gang comes into it, camp those chokepoints with bubbles and titans. It will be worth it. Big Carrier and Titan Gangs 4TW.
<--- Wishes I still had my titan:(
Looks like Ravens and Drakes are once again back on top.
Perfectly Fitted Nano Macherial = 5B Isk Snake Set = 3B ISK Minni Pilot Account = 14.95 per month CCP ruining the game for thousands = Priceless
Where Can I sign up BOB, I will listen to the FC's cause I am sure they will train me to be ahead of changes like this.
MAX Policy= if we struggle; don't worry, just sign on a dev account and and fix it.
uh question! I know this won't be taken seriously from a member of EXE, but honestly, I fail to see why you guys think BoB cheats, we don't have any problems with Nano gangs, and we haven't had any failures during MAX. Sure, we had some trouble at first, and thats when everyone paid attention to what was going on, but as soon as we start kicking ass and taking names, we vanish from the news. I'm more of the opinion that CCP is as against BoB as they are everyone else. Lets see, 2 days ago we took out a Nyx, we've taken out countless battleships while Iron refused to engage us. We destroyed at least 20 POS's, probably more, of course since we're not doing poorly then we don't even make the news. __________________________________________________ |
Terastra
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:19:00 -
[1019]
Quote: So what do you do when a heavy tanked gang comes? Using heavy tanked ships yourself? Looks broken to me if you need heavy tanked ships to kill heavy tanked ships.
yes, because heavy tank ships require loads of top end mods, implants and rigs to be effective or even in the ball park.
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Lord Acheron
Capital Produce Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:19:00 -
[1020]
Oh thank god the megathron has alot of midlsots so i can fit webs scramblers disruptors afterburners and cap boosters! Thanks ccp for effectively destroying gallente! Hey you wanna also make it so the dominix cant launch drones? Imho ccp states over and over that they want a "fair" and "equal" playing field for all of those who play in this "wonderful" world we call EVE. Well, only listening to people who decide that mining and missioning are the only fun aspects of EVE makes it so that you change everything for them and end up with a growing number of people who resent you because they dont wish to participate in mining or missioning yet you have effectively destroyed any other options like pvp by nerfing everything the carebears cant/wont/arent skilled enough to use. "Success is commemorated; Failure merely remembered"
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:19:00 -
[1021]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Single LSE 425mm vagabond: 3275m/s, 554 dps, 17km effective range, 31.5k EHT, no signifiant cap issues.
could u provide exact fits?
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TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:19:00 -
[1022]
Originally by: Pohbis
Yeah, cause Gallente Recons are sooo going to be useless after this change. Yep. No boost to be found in longe range warp disruptors after this
And what's up with people crying about their Minnie recons? This is an across the board speed change, your webs will still be just as effective, since pretty much everyone will be going slower, some will even fit ABs, making webs even better. Seems like most of you are Rapier solo-gankers in dasguise
Gallente Recons will still have horrible range with scramblers, this isn't an arazu/lach buff. If under 20km is long range to you, sure. They also won't survive long as at all with that range, the only reason Rapiers/Huginns do is they can move at a decent speed and fit a LSE (or two depending on setup) for buffertank. On top of that their secondary EW is still awful (Damps), so they're still going to be bad unless something else is done to help them.
My main issue with this is apparently deciding that overall speed is bad and nerfing it across the board, instead of selected areas that have issues. In particular minmatar are very hard hit by this. Rapiers and to a lesser extent huginns rely on a combination of decent speed and webbing to do their job, that's completely gone with this change. It will be nearly impossible to lock down capitals trying to get into POS shields, because in a realistic situation you'll have 2-3 rapiers max, usually more like 1-2. Webs are pretty much worthless, because no one's going to pack 4 webs on a Rapier to get just to get the effect of 1 90% web now (and that's how many it would take). This doesn't even include people burning back to gates, or trying to bump people off stations/POS shields.
The changes last year to speed were good in that they stopped the insanity of crazy fast battleships, with 2 rather expensive exceptions in the Mach/Panther. I'll wait and see how they perform after Monday in regards to bumping, but it's not looking too hot. So what this has done is render Minmatar EW 100% worthless, as no one uses TPs outside of maybe a Torp raven. This is an insane change that completely breaks the Rapier/Huginn/Hyena so badly they will not be flown, much like the Pilgrim and Arazu/Lacheisis now. To a lesser extent this is also a blaster nerf as they rely on webs to help with tracking, but I'll wait to see how that pans out with testing.
Next problem: CRUISE MISSILES. Have you ever tried to kill ratters in a HAC? Yea, it's pretty hard unless you can go just fast enough to not get hit by cruises. With this change, that disappears. Cruises are a battleship weapon, and with this change ratting ravens (which everyone knows is the most common PVE ship, be it in 0.0 or in empire running L4 missions) will roll all over any roaming HAC. Cruises are excellent HAC/smaller ship killers to begin with, as all it took was someone to drop below 3k to start getting hit pretty hard by them. With this change, they will be incredibly good. Not quite as good as the current Locus-Rigged ****Apocs with scorch, but pretty damn close. This is a hidden Caldari/Amarr buff if anything, as their LR HAC/BS are getting insane buffs with changes like this. It's like karmic payback for how crappy they were in PVP for ages, and Gall/Minmatar are getting stomped all over.
This pretty much eliminates solo PVP and removes options people have, it doesn't "add" anything and that's a serious, serious problem. It seems like the general push is towards nerfing everything while buffing nothing in return. If you aren't happy with people going so insanely fast that they can't get hit with missiles/drones, then there's probably something wrong sure. That doesn't mean nerf speed so badly that it renders a race useless (minmatar) and makes certain ships 100% worthless (rapiers, other speedtanked ships).
Also saying "we're ignoring the reactions" etc is incredibly disrespectful. Ignore the crappy replies like always. ----------------
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KingCappo
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:20:00 -
[1023]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
2) Nano-ships can run away from fights. If CCP wanted that, they'd have not changed WCS so everyone could run away from fights.
The difference is that, in order to fit a MWD, you have to gimp your cap and gimp the rest of your set-up in order to make it all fit. There was no similar trade-off with the WCS era.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:20:00 -
[1024]
Originally by: Moon Kitten
- False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are several.
Example: There are only two states of combat in Eve:
- the current state of balanced nanospeeds
or
- the proposed ridiculous nanonerf
This is not true, it is in fact false. There are far more than two types of combat scenarios in Eve. Eve is not black or white, it is gray.
CCP made the right decision in the first place, and it doesn't need to be changed.
fixed
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:21:00 -
[1025]
Originally by: Terastra
Quote: So what do you do when a heavy tanked gang comes? Using heavy tanked ships yourself? Looks broken to me if you need heavy tanked ships to kill heavy tanked ships.
yes, because heavy tank ships require loads of top end mods, implants and rigs to be effective or even in the ball park.
Exactly.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:23:00 -
[1026]
Originally by: TheAdj
CRUISE MISSILES. Have you ever tried to kill ratters in a HAC? Yea, it's pretty hard unless you can go just fast enough to not get hit by cruises. With this change, that disappears. Cruises are a battleship weapon, and with this change ratting ravens (which everyone knows is the most common PVE ship, be it in 0.0 or in empire running L4 missions) will roll all over any roaming HAC.
Not to mention drakes or cerberuses with heavy missiles.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:23:00 -
[1027]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 18:24:56 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 18:23:35
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
2) Nano-ships can run away from fights. If CCP wanted that, they'd have not changed WCS so everyone could run away from fights.
The difference is that, in order to fit a MWD, you have to gimp your cap and gimp the rest of your set-up in order to make it all fit. There was no similar trade-off with the WCS era.
Ah yes, because that's really very specific to a nano-ship. Pray tell, which PvP fits these days don't fit MWDs other than possibly snipers?
Edit: This sets aside that, regardless of the tradeoff, which as I've just shown is one we all have to make, not just nano-ships, CCP sent a clear message about committing to fights. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:25:00 -
[1028]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: TheAdj
CRUISE MISSILES. Have you ever tried to kill ratters in a HAC? Yea, it's pretty hard unless you can go just fast enough to not get hit by cruises. With this change, that disappears. Cruises are a battleship weapon, and with this change ratting ravens (which everyone knows is the most common PVE ship, be it in 0.0 or in empire running L4 missions) will roll all over any roaming HAC.
Not to mention drakes or cerberuses with heavy missiles.
Yea that's pretty terrifying as well, I ran outta characters so I had to cut a lot of stuff out. ----------------
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:25:00 -
[1029]
I think the biggest winner out of this is interceptors.
Solo nanoships will remain quite viable for taking on solo targets, but with the warp scram changes the era of the nano-gang is most certainly over - with these warp scram changes intys can now properly tackle nanoships.
It doesn't matter what else the defenders may have, now that an easy interceptor fit can stop any nano-hic in its tracks I think the risks will quickly outweigh the kills. The inty can even stay in range by switching from a MWD to a good AB when they get scrammed in return, and still maintain good speed since webs are nerfed. If AFs get the web immunity bonus that's been kicked around for a while now you'll see them suddenly take on a nano-tackle role as well.
I've been here through three major nerfs now - this, the Lofty nerf, and the indirect WCS nerf (through the introduction of HICs). The trend I see is that CCP wants to even out the risks to the aggressor and defender. With today's devblog, nanoships of any flavor can be tackled. Sure, you can still nano them, and I doubt an untackled nanoship flown by a skilled pilot will perform much worse than it does now. But now that they *can* be tackled effectively, especially by intys (which is what intys are designed for, after all), changes things up a lot - nanofits aren't exactly cheap, after all.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:25:00 -
[1030]
Originally by: Lord Testament nano nerf is great
and it's about time something happened about this nano madness
@nanonerf whines
adapt or die
Lord Testament, member, Imperial Academy, 28 days. ---
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Digi Mortal
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:25:00 -
[1031]
Originally by: Kwa Kaine And so, CCP take one more step towards blob online.
I think i just ****ed my pants!
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Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:25:00 -
[1032]
This finally takes speed back to the pre-kali level where it belongs and was best while at the same time retaining some of the unique benefits of modules added since. The interceptor will once again reign supreme in top end speeds and minmatar will true to form reign supreme at speed of general ship classes such as hacs but all within much more reasonable confines.
I for one wholly support this change and although there is some stiff opposition to these changes, it will greatly improve the dynamics of eve going forward on so many levels.
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Ivena Amethyst
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:26:00 -
[1033]
yes! oh gos yes, finaly the answer to the question "how sould i fitt this <ship> for pvp?" wont always be "nano it the frack up!"
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Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:26:00 -
[1034]
Originally by: TheAdj
CRUISE MISSILES. Have you ever tried to kill ratters in a HAC? Yea, it's pretty hard unless you can go just fast enough to not get hit by cruises. With this change, that disappears. Cruises are a battleship weapon, and with this change ratting ravens (which everyone knows is the most common PVE ship, be it in 0.0 or in empire running L4 missions) will roll all over any roaming HAC.
Ever tried firing cruise missiles at an afterburning Zealot? |
1Of9
Gallente The Circle STYX.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:26:00 -
[1035]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
1 problem i see here: while blasters will be very affected by someone using a AB instead of a MWD, torpedos wont. they will still hit and still do that crazy damage they do at ranges above 20km. torps need balancing, or at least, increase the blasters dps to match!
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Chavu
Minmatar Killer Koalas
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:26:00 -
[1036]
Well, the polycarbon, stacking penalty and snake/claymore nerf was all expected.
But the scrambler and webifier changes, I didn't see that. I will have to test this come monday. Sounds very interesting.
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Tvaishk Suzuki
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:27:00 -
[1037]
I like the look of the changes really, sure its going to take some getting used to I had my doubts about wcs nerf but all in all I think it turned out very well.
Thank you ccp for trying to make the game better all the time, am looking formard to the changes.
just leave with two general adages: "Without Change we will Stagnant" "With change comes opportunity"
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JS LiamElms
Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:27:00 -
[1038]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Asero [Ares, Speed] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I
ok, now that my vaga goes 3.4k what does the tackler on my vaga go at?
note: this is not a t2 crow, this is an ares, which are more common as cheap tacklers
hitting 5k
ok... this thread is running to fast for my reading. But any ship with 125s with iron ammo, and you'd eat through a ares trying to hold you down... even if that said ares is doing over 15k speed and sitting at about 25k disruptor range. and thats present mechanics for you.
as its been said many times, these nano ships can be countered, by the correct setups. Just like a Titan can be with the correct ships (before hics too). But then that was down the the genius of people coming up with solutions.
oh, and the aux t2 and od's stack :( really sad to see you do that and show how little knowledge you have of nano'ing your ship. Cause if you did, you'd know that any cerb/missile ship really hurts a ship going less than 4k.....
before i rant to much, and probably off topic by now, the reason you get the 1% able to afford the high end nanoships is because they are a group of people playing this game for awhile and have understood the isk farming ways... moons! the rest of us get knocked for six when loosing a high end ship.
oh... and the above setup stacks worse that the vaga posted... 2od plus 2 aux = 4xspeed boost = stacking |
goawayofmyway
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:28:00 -
[1039]
Please, think about all the people who put a lot of time, skill time for make the faster ships, think bout all the time when they learn to play like time.
and remember that all this time is also a lot of money who give it to ccp.
[b]DON'T kill all this time, and DON't KILL the blast ships !
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:28:00 -
[1040]
Originally by: AntonioBanderas Please explain what will be ups of minmatar race if this bullshit hits TQ. Why wouly anyone traing minmatar?
They'll still be the fastest ships?
And even if they would suck across the board, cross-train? Isn't that what every nanoer has been telling people to do, in order to get huggins/rapiers?
Irony?
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Anarine
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:30:00 -
[1041]
I'm not a nano-pilot, but even if I was, I don't think that this would bother me that much. The philosophy is simple; nanoed ships are not doing what they are supposed to. We weren't supposed to do racecourses in battleships, and intys were supposed to be the ships that caught anything. I agree with most that has been said by CCP, and some of what has been said on the forum. The key word here is adaptation, I mean, come on, it's not like CCP is removing all the weapons from the game and offering Tech II feather to tickle your enemies to death.
I'll give them some comments, and I'll argue the details with people on the forum, but the patch hasn't even been put on the test server yet! I'm not going to scream or jump for joy until that has been done, then, finally, I will know what I'm talking about.
A.
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Silver Sarena
Caldari Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:30:00 -
[1042]
/flamesuit on
Yes. I am a carebear. I run missions. I enjoy them. So, everyone can insult me, stop listening, and move on now. But, I will have my say anyway. That is what the forums are for after all.
Once again, and as usual, it seems that CCP is looking ONLY at PvP when considering changes; and completely ignoring (read: not giving a flying F) how it affects the rest of the player base.
Does speed need to be adjusted in PvP? Yes. It has needed to be for a LOOOONG time. (Yes, I do PvP occasionally too. Don't feint if you're still reading.) But, do you need to pull out the nerf-hammer to fix the system? NO!
The answer is staring CCP in the face, but they fail to see it, as usual. You want ships to have "defined top speeds that fit into their designed rolls" CCP? Fine. Hard code the speed maximums you feel are appropriate into the different ship classes. Boom. Done.
You say that you don't want to limit players creativity (in ship design) by setting hard maximums into the ship designs? But, isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing with this overly complicated set of unnecessary nerfs? And, at the same time, having a MASSIVE amount of unintended collateral damage in the process?
CCP OBVIOUSLY does not have a problem with hard coded limits; i.e. 250km max target distance, anyone???
Another change that makes AWESOME sense, and is badly needed, is the warp scrambler immediately dropping the effect of the MWD off of a ship. You get hit with a scrambler, and boom, you moving like a normal ship again. This makes absolute sense and fits in with game mechanics as they currently stand. I.E. You can't use MWD in most dead space pockets.
All of the rest of the changes are just mindless nerfs that are going to cost CCP accounts more than anything. Am I going to quit over them? No. But some hot-headed people will. Especially since the nerf-train has seemed to be out of control up at CCP for the last 2 years or more.
Summary: CCP, hard code the speed limits that fit into what your "vision" of what the different classes should be. Make scramblers immediately drop the speed bonus from MWDs. LEAVE THE REST ALONE. There. You'd be done with a minimum amount of pain; especially avoiding most of the pain to the PvE people who you are not trying to limit.
There. I've had my say. Everyone can ignore me and go back to what they were doing now.
Cheers.
*
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Jenny' JoJo
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:31:00 -
[1043]
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
Sung Tu
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:32:00 -
[1044]
Originally by: Lt Angus and as said earlier this makes arazu the new rapier
Yeah this is good because as i saw it the Arazu was kind of an awkward ship didnt have a well defined role within small gang warefare...
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:32:00 -
[1045]
Even blaster ships require a dedicated tackler? YAY!
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Kyodai Koga
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:32:00 -
[1046]
Originally by: HakanSherif Edited by: HakanSherif on 25/07/2008 17:56:47 Every MMO i played so far with the exception of WoW, did a smilar rewamp at some point listening to clueless idiots, then they died horribly. The scale of changes presented on the blog is very smilar to CU for SWG which successfully managed to bring down sub's numbers from 700k to 50k. Guess what? All those ppl who wanted CU quit the game.
Yea go ahead implement these, and remove the only actual skill required flight style from game, remove the danger from 0.0 where both sides with blobs can sit and shoot each other and the outcome is determined by who has more numbers or who lags less.
Couple of times i decided to leave the game becoz of stupid bugs and stupid customer service but then i changed my mind, coz there is nothing good out there to play however if these changes happen there wont be a reason left for me to play it other than spending time with friends. Well my accounts are paid for 6 or so months so i will wait and see but no more GTC's. I will just spend all the isk i have on exotic dancers.:)
I dont have much hope at this point judging from the wording of the blog, this will happen. My advice to CCP tho is to contact John Smedley, CEO of SOE and ask him what happens when you do such drastic changes to a game.
Yay, seems like CCp found a way to remove BoB of the game, props to CCP for that !
j/k
Really, and as much as I respect some corps heavily concerned by these changes in their playstyle, anyone who lives and fights daily in 0.0 knows that there's a problem with nanos.
The argument of "the only way to fight the blob" could be a valid one, but tbh, the gangs most harmed by nanogangs are small scale gangs.
In a blob you will always find enough webbers/tacklers/dictors/etc... to at least catch something jumping on you even if most of a nanogang could escape. A small scale gang is often unable to do that except being a nanogang itself or going for a completely non realistic config with heavy matar recon presence (hard to come by for small corps and even then, the gang will have to be nano'ed too to assure it can escape a regular gang where their special anti nano config would prove unefficient).
There's always been blobbing, it's a valid yet brainless tactic in all situations weither we like it or not. There's been blobbing before the nano fotm, there'll be blobbing after. Nano isn't a counter to blobbing, it's a problem in itself that deserves a fix, and while as a vaga/matar recon pilot I look at these changes with doubt, I'll wait to test and see by myself to complain.
Blobbing is a real problem that needs fixing and shouldn't be used as an excuse to allow broken game mechanics.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:33:00 -
[1047]
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE ---
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TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:33:00 -
[1048]
Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Originally by: TheAdj
CRUISE MISSILES. Have you ever tried to kill ratters in a HAC? Yea, it's pretty hard unless you can go just fast enough to not get hit by cruises. With this change, that disappears. Cruises are a battleship weapon, and with this change ratting ravens (which everyone knows is the most common PVE ship, be it in 0.0 or in empire running L4 missions) will roll all over any roaming HAC.
Ever tried firing cruise missiles at an afterburning Zealot?
I Sure haven't, but a quick EFT session shows that an afterburning zealot is well within cruise speed, and would therefore get ****d pretty hard. ----------------
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Borasatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:34:00 -
[1049]
Originally by: taylor04 IM NOT THE FIRST TO SAY THIS BUT SOLO SMALL PVP WILL BE FINISHED... CAREBEARS WILL BE OUR EQUALS..
SO F U AND F**K YOUR CRAZY IDEAS CCP..
80% PVP BASE USE nano's so why change ???
oh because carebears run the game oh how silly i forgot..
i got im from work to hear this bull crud...
thanks for the 4 years ccp now shove your game where the sun dont shine if these changes go through..
Can I have your stuff?
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:34:00 -
[1050]
Originally by: Mankirks Wife Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 25/07/2008 18:26:35 I think the biggest winner out of this is interceptors.
ever felt a volley of missiles from cerberus hit you inty? with the patch even ravens torp will hit you that hard
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:35:00 -
[1051]
Originally by: Silver Sarena /flamesuit on
Yes. I am a carebear. I run missions. I enjoy them. So, everyone can insult me, stop listening, and move on now. But, I will have my say anyway. That is what the forums are for after all.
Once again, and as usual, it seems that CCP is looking ONLY at PvP when considering changes; and completely ignoring (read: not giving a flying F) how it affects the rest of the player base.
Does speed need to be adjusted in PvP? Yes. It has needed to be for a LOOOONG time. (Yes, I do PvP occasionally too. Don't feint if you're still reading.) But, do you need to pull out the nerf-hammer to fix the system? NO!
The answer is staring CCP in the face, but they fail to see it, as usual. You want ships to have "defined top speeds that fit into their designed rolls" CCP? Fine. Hard code the speed maximums you feel are appropriate into the different ship classes. Boom. Done.
You say that you don't want to limit players creativity (in ship design) by setting hard maximums into the ship designs? But, isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing with this overly complicated set of unnecessary nerfs? And, at the same time, having a MASSIVE amount of unintended collateral damage in the process?
CCP OBVIOUSLY does not have a problem with hard coded limits; i.e. 250km max target distance, anyone???
Another change that makes AWESOME sense, and is badly needed, is the warp scrambler immediately dropping the effect of the MWD off of a ship. You get hit with a scrambler, and boom, you moving like a normal ship again. This makes absolute sense and fits in with game mechanics as they currently stand. I.E. You can't use MWD in most dead space pockets.
All of the rest of the changes are just mindless nerfs that are going to cost CCP accounts more than anything. Am I going to quit over them? No. But some hot-headed people will. Especially since the nerf-train has seemed to be out of control up at CCP for the last 2 years or more.
Summary: CCP, hard code the speed limits that fit into what your "vision" of what the different classes should be. Make scramblers immediately drop the speed bonus from MWDs. LEAVE THE REST ALONE. There. You'd be done with a minimum amount of pain; especially avoiding most of the pain to the PvE people who you are not trying to limit.
There. I've had my say. Everyone can ignore me and go back to what they were doing now.
Cheers.
see even the established carebears (sorry for term :/) know this is a bull patch... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:37:00 -
[1052]
Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 18:38:44
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
ITT: Someone tells shadoo about remote rep.
P.S. dear god you're stupid ---
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:37:00 -
[1053]
Raven and drake are begin!
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Anarine
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:37:00 -
[1054]
How can you possibly expect a Minmatar ship of any sort to fly at 14km/s? CCP, hard code something into the game where bits of your ship fall off at high speed. Any Minmatar ship flying at over 600m/s deserves to disintegrate. It's amazing that they are flying altogether. The line between a Minmatar ship and a wreck is thin...
YES, that was a joke. NO, you don't have to take it seriously. I wqas trying to add some humor to a sad post, not looking for a flame war.
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ArmaggedonPSA
Minmatar Royal Hiigaran Navy
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:38:00 -
[1055]
Thank. You. CCP.
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Zhilan Alaioki
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:39:00 -
[1056]
Its so unfortunate that there have been tons of posts by people who havent even understood the changes and the few that really bring up good points are more or less drowned out. I agree with those that are saying this will break a lot of gameplay, because this will really nerf all speed tanked ships beyond hope and a lot of other ships along with it. Those few ships that really were a problem because they were near invicible should have been adressed, I agree, but this is just breaks all small gang hit and run gameplay.
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:39:00 -
[1057]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm Look at the whines
Has anybody tried this on SiSi?
No?
Shud up
try on sisi 2 cach macroe who log of when you enter ****ing sistem with TRIMARK hac
MAKE AGRO FROM NPC THEN
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:40:00 -
[1058]
Isn't this a big hit to ANYTHING that previously could out-run warrior II's that now can't ?
Any standard fit, ie just t2 mods, ceptor that can no longer hit 6+km/s is totally worthless in a normal combat situation, making the ubermods in fact absolutely critical to anyone who takes their inty seriously.
Don't shout yet. Think it through.
You can hit very useful speeds in an inty at the moment without really pimping it. 6.5+ km/s is great because the drones can't catch you and you zip around on the edge of scram range generally hoping you don't bounce off something. You do your job of holding the guy down, and don't die in the process.
If after the nerf you need to uberpimp to hit what i'd say is the minimum speed to inusure some level of survivability, then that becomes the ONLY way to fit an inty.
Thats my main concern here. Where do we draw the line between 'silly' fast and 'survivable' fast, especially on ships like interceptors who have NO other form of defence.
But on to the wider issues.
I always thought that the speed thing was a problem almost exclusively because of snake implants, and that needed a kicking. 53% is just too much. LOADS too much. Made the gulf between pimp and un-pimp way too big. God only knows what we can do about that, but almost entirely destroying one method of combat doesn't do much.
As people have said, the fight stops being fluid without at least a few very fast ships. If a fight is entirely decided by warp in distance and the optimal you happen to have at the time, then theres no real skill to it. The only versatility you get is give by how much you can modulate your range.
The reason nano ships are good is becuase they can choose when and what to fight and are very difficult to trap or pin down. Thats not beign overpowered. Thats what any smart commander would want right ? Only get into a fight you can win ?
Thats the reason they are efficent, in number of nanos killed to number of ships killed by nanos, they just don't fight things if they don't want to. Now some people feel this is unfair. I equally think its entirely unfair that if i drop through a gate ontop of a blasterthron in... well pretty much anything non-nano cept a torp raven or an abbadon I have NO ability to escape.
You can no-longer use stabs in PvP, at least not without really gimping yourself. You can't use speed to really dictate a fight, not properlly anyway, and certianly not in a way that will make autocannons worth using, to beat tracking and so forth. So whats left ? ECM ? Big Woop for luck based PvP.
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Itzena
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:42:00 -
[1059]
It's this thread. This thread is the best thread.
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Borasatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:44:00 -
[1060]
The tears over the Curse with the NOS nerf were flowing like crazy sometime back... and today the Curse is considered deadly (still maybe the most deadly recon in the game) in spite of it (after people sat back and adapted).
Maybe people should give it a go first besides just crying about the first-order fears that you have?
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Lord EmBra
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:44:00 -
[1061]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:46:00 -
[1062]
Response is as predictable as it has ever been. Re-hashing arguments that the developers have probably already had internally.
Wait till the live test on the server. I don't honestly see how this affects the kind of nano-warfare I am used to.
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Kazan Bho
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:50:00 -
[1063]
Still trying to catch up on this thread (currently on page 29/40).
nerfing polys - been needed for a while nerfing snakes - there is room for a % reduction stacking istabs/nanos/OD - I thought this had already been done, but I guess they can be nerfed a little further.
nerfing 90%+ of players because of the 0.5% (probably less) who have spent considerable time & ISK to purchase high end equipment to make their ships better than everyone elses?
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:51:00 -
[1064]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE
Well your alliance should know how effective MK 3's are, and that they're pretty easily beaten if you know what you're doing. ------
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 18:52:00 -
[1065]
Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 25/07/2008 18:54:01
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
L M A O
Ok so as already posted, try to be a bit constructive. I don't think you've ever had more than 100 kills, and if you have, they've all been with fleet BS in large fleets. Prove me wrong. On the other hand, you sir, have proven, with your complete crap remarks, that you know nothing of which you speak.
I think most of us reasonable nano***gers would agree that a nano nerf is needed. But these changes aren't nerfing nanos, they're nerfing speed, and any ship that ever feels the need to undock.
Please CCP, the scram changes are fine, nerfing webs a bit is fine, but don't nerf the mwd itself, boost the afterburner, and be done. EvE is a great game, most people love to play it like it is, and we all recognize it's not perfect. What this nerf does is change the very fundamentals of the game. That is not acceptable. Speed in general, never needed a nerf. Please listen to reason, not bitter ze-vagas-killed-mines-raven tears. PLEASE I BEG YOU.
-----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Tal Notts
Caldari Divine Power R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:53:00 -
[1066]
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
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Serilla
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:54:00 -
[1067]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE
350mm Navy Megas?
__________________
|
Ed Kraka
The Mutineers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:54:00 -
[1068]
THIS IS BULL**** NANO FLEETS ARE NOT INVULNERABLE YOU JUST NEED THE SKILL AND KNOW HOW TO STOP THEM..
THIS IS A BUFF FOR ALL THE WHINGING CAREBEARS THAT JOINED FACTION WARFARE AND CRIED COS THEY COULDNT HIT SH*T.
ITS DISGUSTING THAT CCP IS EVEN THINKING OF NERFING EVERYTHING THAT GOES FAST. DISGUSTING!
In your galleries, jacking ur sigs |
Dominatus Crispus
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:55:00 -
[1069]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
I could not have said this better myself.
Hey CCP, how about you stop nerfing the game play decided by the players and maybe start looking into nerfing the lag? 10 min modulate activation in a system of less than 100 is horrible. ____________________
ravetrax.com ... player owned and operated |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:55:00 -
[1070]
What about scripting webifiers... let T2 become like 5km 90%(script for strength), 10km 60% (unscripted) or 15km 30% (scripted for range)
Just a suggestion ofcourse...
Nothing is bulletproof - just a matter of finding the right bullet for the right target... -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:56:00 -
[1071]
About time tbh. No matter how much fun nano-ships are, there is no doubt that the current state of game mechanics make them unbalanced.
Good call.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:56:00 -
[1072]
Originally by: Serilla
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE
350mm Navy Megas?
|
Alpha Type
Gallente Childhood's End
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:57:00 -
[1073]
Originally by: Ed Kraka THIS IS BULL**** NANO FLEETS ARE NOT INVULNERABLE YOU JUST NEED THE SKILL AND KNOW HOW TO STOP THEM..
THIS IS A BUFF FOR ALL THE WHINGING CAREBEARS THAT JOINED FACTION WARFARE AND CRIED COS THEY COULDNT HIT SH*T.
ITS DISGUSTING THAT CCP IS EVEN THINKING OF NERFING EVERYTHING THAT GOES FAST. DISGUSTING!
SKY IS FALLING, MUST POST IN CAPS TO CONVEY THE ENORMITY OF MY NERDRAGE!
I ONLY PLAY FW, AND EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME, SO THIS MUST BE BECAUSE OF FW PILOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Loka xDD
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:57:00 -
[1074]
Thats what i think:
If nano is overpowered, then get a nano ship and go kill stuffs.. Oh, you always die with a nano, but others nano always kill you? THEN YOU DESERVE TO DIE!!! Simply as that, dont go cry because nano are overpowered because its not =/
Have you ever tried to kill an Apoc with 100km pulse lasers with nanos? dammm, nano dont need to be nerfed, because its already being nerfed by the pvpers that knows what they are doing, and soon the noobs will learn how to fight agains nano too... Soo, noobs, stop crying about nanos being overpowered T_T
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:59:00 -
[1075]
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: Shadowsword
stuff
You left out the part where the vaga has to fight into falloff in order to have a 17km effective range. So 440 dps is closer to 250-300 DPS.
EFT != TQ
Where did I say the vagabond had to stay right at the limit of effective range (optimal+falloff)? Those setups are made to dish out pain right up your butt. And they work pretty well at that.
Quote:
could u provide exact fits?
I'll do it for that vagabond fit, cba for the other HAS, but they're similar.
5* 425mm AC II, RF EMP 1* HAM II, CN whatever
10MN MWD II Warp disruptor II LSE II Invul Field II
Damage control II 2* Power diags II 2* Gyrostab II ------------------------------------------
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:59:00 -
[1076]
Cruisers going 3.5-5km+ a second was broken too, as the only thing that could stop a small gang of them was another similarly speeded gang or 5-10 huginns.
That's why it was such an across the board change. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:59:00 -
[1077]
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
---
|
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 18:59:00 -
[1078]
Originally by: Serilla
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE
350mm Navy Megas?
If everyone fitted these we'd have no issue with people whinging about overpowered nanos...
Also a lot of spare lino and dead alliances ---
|
Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:00:00 -
[1079]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark What about scripting webifiers... let T2 become like 5km 90%(script for strength), 10km 60% (unscripted) or 15km 30% (scripted for range)
That doesn't fit the following criteria of CCP: "There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes."
Frigs operate at around 5km with standard ammunition and no sniper/longrange fitting. they would get webbed for 90% and have/lower speed than cruisers. Isn't intended.
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SSDD24
Gallente Logical Progression
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:00:00 -
[1080]
How the hell did we end up with a game in wich the peeps that make it (aka get money to develop, play and test it) know less about it then a guy that spends 20 hrs/ week playing it?
After reading all these pages i stil fail to see any coherent support for this nerf. You call this rebalancing? I think you dont understand the meaning of the word balance.
Mad props to all the peeps that tried to argue with valid arguements with CCP. CCP by calling theyr arguments knee-jerking you show you really dont deserve your players.
|
|
WidowMaker IX
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:00:00 -
[1081]
haha oh god i am soo happy thanx CCP
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DGWabbit
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:00:00 -
[1082]
Please someone (Dev) actually read this post:
Speed tanking is not always done with billion isk ships, I was able to speed tank a BS in a Hac using an AB and 1 polycarb, the low slots were tank and he barely ever hit me.
Rather than reducing the speed of all ships by 2k, increase tracking a little more? So they at least get glancing or light hits vs excellent or nothing at all. Boost missles and drone speeds even.
Also, you are NERFING the ENTIRE playerbase because of those few, very few that do have full snake sets. Why not just nerf down the implants? As it is, the only way for your dev to break 4k in a vaga was to abuse those particular implants.
Also, I hope you realize that nano-ships now have poor dps since their low's are full of speed and not damage, shouldn't that be trade off enough? Even a drake can push back a vaga 1v1.
Opinions that I feel the dev's should read:
I did not enjoy seeing that the devs are taking these posts' with a "grain of salt" because that effectively means they are ignoring 90% of them.
The solutions are easy, but your approaches you are taking are very game-breaking. Yes you can break your own game, you'd think that the 40 pages this has gone so far (majority are against your proposal) you would have realized that.
The Dev's balancing ideas...I do not believe he plays on the main server in a 0.0 alliance. He should not be allowed to drastically affect the ENTIRE game. It's almost as bad as the carrier proposal of a 5 drone limit. No offense intended, i simply do not believe the dev in question is qualified to make this balance.
|
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:01:00 -
[1083]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 25/07/2008 19:02:01
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
Signed too. CCP try to fix the lag and not try to nerf the all EVE. CCP working again for nothing and make more lag in EVE world. Pls go and work for the bigest problems of game.
|
Anahid Brutus
TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:01:00 -
[1084]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Whiners
You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???
Originally by: CCP
Yap
except people will just fly sniping ships and engage that way, or simply do deaggro/docking games. just because you kill off one way of fighting doesn't mean that people will suddenly stop caring about the time they put into their ships. you ****ing idiots.
|
matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:03:00 -
[1085]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Serilla
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Shadoo And so the Remote Rep on everything age begins.
Mark 3's... EVE WIDE
350mm Navy Megas?
If everyone fitted these we'd have no issue with people whinging about overpowered nanos...
Also a lot of spare lino and dead alliances
needs gravy quote imo
|
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:03:00 -
[1086]
Originally by: WidowMaker IX haha oh god i am soo happy thanx CCP
WidowMaker, member, State War Academy, 2 years, 4 months, 20 days. ---
|
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:03:00 -
[1087]
Originally by: SSDD24 How the hell did we end up with a game in wich the peeps that make it (aka get money to develop, play and test it) know less about it then a guy that spends 20 hrs/ week playing it?
After reading all these pages i stil fail to see any coherent support for this nerf. You call this rebalancing? I think you dont understand the meaning of the word balance.
Mad props to all the peeps that tried to argue with valid arguements with CCP. CCP by calling theyr arguments knee-jerking you show you really dont deserve your players.
CCP is just smart. I mean they know that there is no counter to nanos and that missiles not doing full damage sometimes is broken.
I'm pretty sure nohz camped a nano gang into a dead end const with a 60 man gang and then got angry when they just 'nanoed off' from his ratting raven gang. -----
|
Loka xDD
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:05:00 -
[1088]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed =)
|
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:05:00 -
[1089]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
---
|
Dinamita Tona
Minmatar Privateers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:09:00 -
[1090]
can you even more nerf minie ships or is that all? missile boats will love this change, but hit and run tactics are obsolete now and speed was only real weapon for some of minmatar ships, how do you intend to compensate that? almost every nerf goes in caldari favour
|
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:10:00 -
[1091]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.
|
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:11:00 -
[1092]
Nazh doesn't use a raven gang. I seen him nanoing on his mom the other night. He was going about 10K a sec and lasted only one volley. She was packing quiet a punch from the looks of it. Since he had no skill and he wasted time with that training and decided to fix it for good. Sad that the sick basterd had to do it this way. |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Buffalo Soldiers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:12:00 -
[1093]
A few comments on the proposed changes:
1. Interceptors and Nano-ships of larger classes are not invulnerable to missile fire because they fly so fast. They are invulnerable to missile fire because the explosion velocity is an order of magnitude smaller than the ship velocity. Missiles catch nano-ships just fine, except for some implant-boosted interceptors. It is the missile explosion that ships can easily outrun. What sense is there shooting a 7200 m/s cruise missile at a target, when the explosion only propagates at 500 m/s? It makes no sense. Boost missile explosion velocity 10 times.
2. No mention of Skirmish Mindlink implants in the dev blog. How are they affected? They presently add a 1.5x multiplier to the wearer's Skirmish Warfare boosts, passive and active.
3. I like the other changes. That a warp scrambler (short range) deactivates the target's MWD but not his AB is a pretty good idea. I also like very much that higher meta MWD impose a smaller capacitor penalty. It's a ***** trying to run 3 gang links at once while MWD around trying not to get splatted.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
|
OVERCOPES 1
Amarr Amarr Secret Service
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:12:00 -
[1094]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also lol, while we're at it, lets nerf carriers and let them only field 5 drones
Cry some more.
If you cant see that a ship,any ship should not be able to out run missiles then your just a one trick pony thats got found out.
Your famous for nano ***gotry now we will se how good you really are in proper fights.
Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:12:00 -
[1095]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/07/2008 19:13:51
Originally by: DGWabbit Yes you can break your own game, you'd think that the 40 pages this has gone so far (majority are against your proposal) you would have realized that.
The Dev's balancing ideas...I do not believe he plays on the main server in a 0.0 alliance. He should not be allowed to drastically affect the ENTIRE game. It's almost as bad as the carrier proposal of a 5 drone limit. No offense intended, i simply do not believe the dev in question is qualified to make this balance.
Actually I think if you were to count the posts and repeated posts, it's only been about 100 people discussing it; hardly a representative figure, but then most people probably stopped looking at the forums years ago because it's mostly just a bile-filled cesspool. Secondly, 0.0 is not the ENTIRE game, it's 0.0. Stop exaggerating. If nano-ships only worked in 0.0, hell I suspect half the whines from people would stop because that's where they are probably the most genuine use (to avoid blobs). Meh I for one have given up arguing, people are too passionate about either side to see any sense. At least CCP come at it from the right direction, that of entire game balance, whether their approach is too strong or weak or whatever. I trust them more than I do some biased alliance group or empire-only PvE group. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:13:00 -
[1096]
oh the Tears of Nanofaqs, soo sweet
|
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:13:00 -
[1097]
Originally by: fire5tar Excellent approach CCP, well thought out, good reasons for doing it, and it looks like it will be well implemented too.
That took guts and effort knowing how the skilless wonders will whine that they can't just spin around the system laughing in local anymore. Not that'll they'll ever admit thats what they are whining about :)
Congrats job well done looking forward to it!
fire5tar, six month old character, 3 losses, 0 kills: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-fire5tar-kills.html ---
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:13:00 -
[1098]
The fact that nano setups are unbalanced is kinda proved by the number of posts from people worried about losing their I-WIN button.
The more they post, the more clear it is that rebalancing is required.
This isn't the first major rebalance of something that was way out of line with game expectations, and I have no doubt that it won't be the last.
Adapt kiddies - do your guerilla stuff in ships designed for that role.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:22:00 -
[1099]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Avon losing their I-WIN button.
If you think nanos are the I-WIN button, you may consider using them to take a station system up north, as nothing else you do seems to be working very well.
I lawled.
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:23:00 -
[1100]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: Jesse Jamess so now n00bs have an equal opprotunity to kill people who have been skilling and playing for multiple years...
Ah, I see what you did there. Tell you what, lets rename ISK and skills to levels, and then you can go and complain that you're level 50 and this bunch of level 2s killed you.
why is it absurd to think that someone that has spent years skilling a certain tree should not have a advantage of someone that hasnt.... im not *****ing about omg im uber and this noob killed me... im saying that there is a logical advantage of someone that has spent time and isk to train and specialize in a certain field....
|
|
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:24:00 -
[1101]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 25/07/2008 19:25:24
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Loka xDD
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed =)
Quoting this for great justice.
My hero, and ive probably seen him on the battlefield too.
But in reality there are far less skilled players than there are those whining about the skilled players...
|
Kar Stoertebecker
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:25:00 -
[1102]
hm lol i am a good skilled minma pilot (i think)
so what i get from this is
Gang Bonus Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus Module: Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment 38.81% speedFactor
will be reduced thx ccp for all the trainingtime i waste
Webifiers Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%
lolers antinanogang will be rapier and huginn for my little mind the range from the webers was allways to short why i can scrample 25km t2 and only web 10km t2 why not can web 25km maybe with 85%
if good skilled nano gangs will not that much around but with a 10km /40km(recon) web you have not much change to web ships run all the time away
i think a longer webrange will do the job and you dont have to nerv this and here and there and soon
i think somewhere for 1 year i made a comment allrdy on one thread maybe with another char i think longer webrange will give less nanogangs
|
Borasatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:25:00 -
[1103]
Originally by: Stiletto Minmatar Character for Sale
LVL 5 RECON HIGH NAV SKILLS
2 x POLY RIGGED RAPIERS 2 X POLY RIGGED VAGA
1 isk or best offer,
CCP this is the most lame idea ever, This will become BLOB Online, What fun is that, This kill all Solo and Small Gang warfare which is enjoyable way of combat, Why not boost missles instead of nerfing Minmatar,
I like roaming in small gangs now with this being implement that gone out of the window,
If this goes ahead then my 5 accounts would be closed, unless you rebalance all time and isk i spent maximised a minmatar character which main bonus reley on speed to survive,
Boycott this Dam idea
Can I have your stuff? I'll pay you the 1isk. Contract to me in-game.
|
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:25:00 -
[1104]
When you got much skill and you flying shiney ship like a absolution for example.
Then you got clearly an advantage above those who can only use a cruiser. With these changes nothing about that will change. And it also means that when noobies get 20 cruisers, that absolution will go down quick.
When you got nano ships you shouldnt die to 20 t1 cruisers unless you are seriously screwing up. So it should mean that because you got skill for nano ship you should be immune to rookies in t1 cruisers?
|
alterist
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:25:00 -
[1105]
Originally by: Avon The fact that nano setups are unbalanced is kinda proved by the number of posts from people worried about losing their I-WIN button.
The more they post, the more clear it is that rebalancing is required.
So the more the experienced small gang pvpers point out that no nerf is needed or wanted and the fact that the examples ccp have given are all ridiculous you think means totally the opposite.
You are and always have been an idiot.
|
Cynthia Ysolde
Tritanium Workers Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:26:00 -
[1106]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Avon losing their I-WIN button.
If you think nanos are the I-WIN button, you may consider using them to take a station system up north, as nothing else you do seems to be working very well.
I lawled.
pretty much this
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Tal Notts
Caldari Divine Power R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:26:00 -
[1107]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Furb Killer No i am not alt.
Great changes imo. Always intresting to see that the nano abusers are filled with the idea that the only way to do small scale pvp is using nano ships. Probably because they think it is normal to reach ridiculous killrates. I do solo stuff mainly in battlecruisers. I get kills in them and i lose a shitload of them. You now just got to accept that you cant run away from every fight that is going sucky.
Something not much discussed: what i especially like is that now i can actually be flying during combat. Unless i got a nano circling arround me, i am usually webbed during combat, meaning that even with mwd i barely can move. With these changes i can actually move arround a bit.
and how much isk after insurance do you lose when you lose one of your BC? how much do you think a polycarbed hac loses?
Way too much, it depends a bit on which one i use. Hurricane probably 20-30 million. Harbinger closer to 30-40 million. (yes that is after insurance, and no i dont use very expensive crap). If i then add rigs i get to arround 70 million easily. (which is why i dont rig them). Sure you may lose a polycarbed hac less often than a non rigged battlecruiser. I also lose a rigged battlecruiser less often than a non rigged one. But right now i lose far more on battlecruiser than if i would use nano'd ships.
Using more expensive gear should mean you lose your ship less often. It shouldnt be that 2 times as expensive = you lose your ship 2 times less often (which would make it just as expensive as your cheaper ship). And right now it is more like 4 times more expensive, 20 times less likely to die.
it's not just price though, people invest a lot of time in skill training. it takes a LOT longer to fly a hac than it does to fly a BC. why should people invest in this training time if a ship 4 times the price is just going to die 4 times less often?
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SephiriotH
REUNI0N Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:27:00 -
[1108]
"Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for."
Gratz, someone finally realized it. Now plz make me even more happy by implementing it.
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matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:28:00 -
[1109]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:29:00 -
[1110]
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Furb Killer Random crap
it's not just price though, people invest a lot of time in skill training. it takes a LOT longer to fly a hac than it does to fly a BC. why should people invest in this training time if a ship 4 times the price is just going to die 4 times less often?
Quote pyramid broken
Let me see: So why should people fly a ship that they have to replace 4 times less often? Isnt that kinda obvious?
When i rig my battlecruiser it makes it at least 2 times more expensive, more usually. That doesnt mean i lose it 2 times less often. I dont complain about that. Spending more isk increases my changes to survive, but it doesnt get a war who can spend most isk on stupid setups so you become invunerably.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:31:00 -
[1111]
Originally by: Jesse Jamess why is it absurd to think that someone that has spent years skilling a certain tree should not have a advantage of someone that hasnt.... im not *****ing about omg im uber and this noob killed me... im saying that there is a logical advantage of someone that has spent time and isk to train and specialize in a certain field....
There is of course a logical advantage, but not one that should only be negated by equally spending ISK and training. The popular counters to nanos are exactly that, and it flies directly in the face of true MMO competitiveness. A group of new players should be able to take on a smaller group of older players and win 50% of the time on average (equal player skill of course).
Your statement directly contradicted that. You were complaining that a new player has an equal opportunity to kill a person who has been skilling for years. Either we go back to the old and broken level system that other MMOs use (or have it in another name), or we allow new players that opportunity; you can't have both. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Eviless
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:31:00 -
[1112]
How bout you guys save your HUGE NANO TEARS and first grade theorycraft and actually WAIT for the build to get to SiSi before you let loose your pent up emo anger and start cutting your wrists?
In any case, theres always WoW, lol. Heard the warlock is still OP, over there. *snickers*
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Galia Bonaventure
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:31:00 -
[1113]
Edited by: Galia Bonaventure on 25/07/2008 19:34:19 Lots of different opinions going on in here.
And I will submit mine.
These proposed changes sound fairly good, and I appreciate CCP taking a look at this. This doesn't look like the death of speed tanking to me, and the ships that are getting boosted in speed desperately needed it.
My only concern is that reducing webifiers to 60% is a bit too much of an effectiveness reduction. 70% - 75% might be a better value. I guess this is what we have SiSi for, so it can be analyzed and reevaluated to the proper strength.
Don't go crying yet everyone. Hop on Sisi on monday and try things out, then make reasoned arguements for or against the changes, or how they can be tweaked to be more balanced. It is what CCP needs us to do.
My two ISK
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Zen Tao
Minmatar The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:32:00 -
[1114]
Originally by: Shin Ra
But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.
This: BE ( may they die a thousand deaths ) have been using non-standard fits for years with great sucess.
Just because the ultimate cookie cutter fit in the history of eve is now nerfed doesnt mean you can't use small gangs - u just have to use your head first...
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Ed Kraka
The Mutineers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:32:00 -
[1115]
Originally by: Trojanman190 Edited by: Trojanman190 on 25/07/2008 19:25:24
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Loka xDD
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Read this CCP!
signed =)
Quoting this for great justice.
My hero, and ive probably seen him on the battlefield too.
But in reality there are far less skilled players than there are those whining about the skilled players...
/.Signed
Nerf all this and watch Eve turn into "WOW".
Eve is good cos everyone is on the same server, BUT if your gonna nerf everything the experianced, long-term pvpers have trained for just to benefit the *****ing carebear's that join FW you will end up with WOW. and you will deserve it CCP.
If you want to make love to carebears, give them a different server?!?!?!
what your looking at doing here is the worst thing i have ever seen or heard about in Eve's history.
This is THE BEST mmo ever, dont f*ck it up now.
In your galleries, jacking ur sigs |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:32:00 -
[1116]
So if the only difference between the various MWDs will be cap usage, how much cap will a 10MN MWD II use after the change?
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Dinamita Tona
Minmatar Privateers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:32:00 -
[1117]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Lol btw at people who think hit and run means that you should be circling arround your target with very high speed...
i hope that isnt adressed to me, my way of fighting is just oposite of that, still all this nerfing screws all that i have trained for
i like some changes - but dont screw minmatars any more, acs are dead with this, huginn and rapier same ( they did nice job tackling nano ships btw ) and speed up mine ships not caldari as in one patch before
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:32:00 -
[1118]
Originally by: Eviless How bout you guys save your HUGE NANO TEARS and first grade theorycraft and actually WAIT for the build to get to SiSi before you let loose your pent up emo anger and start cutting your wrists?
In any case, theres always WoW, lol. Heard the warlock is still OP, over there. *snickers*
Quoted for Fail
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Meridius Dex
Amarr Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:33:00 -
[1119]
It seems that the the most significant counter argument to these wholesale changes seems to be that, although this will correct speed imbalances in the game, it will not do anything to counteract blobs. (We'll disregard for a moment the fact that all these nanof*gs themselves are constantly blobbing, but whatever.)
Some time ago, a new ship and weapon system was introduced to Eve to help counteract the blob, particularly the gatecamp blob: the Stealth Bomber fitted with bombs. It's common knowledge that the expense of bombs has prevented their widespread use. There were also quirks in the system that CCP have tried to address regarding how bombs are delivered. The final corrective step they have indicated to be in the pipeline is an overall reduction in the cost of bombs.
So with these changes underway, it looks like The Age of Nano might finally be coming to a reasonable end. And now all CCP has to do is deliver us an effective anti-blob option in the form of relatively affordable bombs. -- Meridius Dex --
Amarr = EVE on Hard setting |
D4RT N3RDiUS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:34:00 -
[1120]
Quote: Edited by: Trojanman190 on 25/07/2008 19:25:24
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Loka xDD
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo HotahEdited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed =)
Quoting this for great justice.
My hero, and ive probably seen him on the battlefield too.
But in reality there are far less skilled players than there are those whining about the skilled players...
/signed and for all ppl who says oh this is beautifull nano gangs is over! .. ya now we become in blobs camps new eras and jump bridges blobs if this patch is implemented gerrilla wars is over and only blobs gangs can make something here lol dont you reallize this is bull?? and nothing is add only nerf nerf nerf..
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:40:00 -
[1121]
Originally by: alterist
Originally by: Zen Tao
Originally by: Shin Ra
But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.
This: BE ( may they die a thousand deaths ) have been using non-standard fits for years with great sucess.
Just because the ultimate cookie cutter fit in the history of eve is now nerfed doesnt mean you can't use small gangs - u just have to use your head first...
BE do not fight blobs they cloak until it is reduced to a more manageable number and they never jump through gates in a large camp. They are a virtual fixed position unless a route to another system is clear.
That is not to say that there style is not effective against numbers some what greater than their own or that their innovative style does not produce good stats, but against a blob they are not effective in the least.
alterist, member, School of Applied Knowledge, 8 days. ---
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:40:00 -
[1122]
what about the hic scrambler? www.garia.net |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:41:00 -
[1123]
Originally by: Furb Killer Going arround a blob and just ignoring them sounds like a fine counter to blobs. After a while they will get bored.
What? Someone who understand how a guerilla actually work? In this board? ------------------------------------------
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Tiirae
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:41:00 -
[1124]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
alterist, member, School of Applied Knowledge, 8 days.
Dungar Loghoth, PL, has never heard of alts. Srsly? An 8 day old character wouldn't even know what BE was ffs.
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PC5
Black Souls Industries The Unseen Company
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:42:00 -
[1125]
Now thats a devblog! Finaly something worth reading. Interesting ideas, please go ahead with your proposals and discustions.
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Zigg Omelo
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:42:00 -
[1126]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
This is the sentiment you seek among us players...
|
D4RT N3RDiUS
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:42:00 -
[1127]
Quote: So with these changes underway, it looks like The Age of Nano might finally be coming to a reasonable end. And now all CCP has to do is deliver us an effective anti-blob option in the form of relatively affordable bomb
s.
lol so mi gang of 100 mill ships gona be ganked for 5 ships who worth 20 mill .. lol. nice thinking ah i forgot is not the problem of the nanogang is the problem of the nano***ots who cloak all day long to and wait till one carebear is ready for ganking.
yi saw sot gang nanos and nice gangs but this nerf is to mucho wy now i need to have tranking in weapons or now wath is a fukin transversal .. now i get missile boat and im a pro... lol in 5 months i gor a pwnmovile now i get 1 year of skils and now i must start over .. luky mi i got mi uber mision runer char with missileboats.. so fuk off ccp you dont afect me but you only destroy the game for me and lots of ppl...
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:42:00 -
[1128]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
|
Selindra Lavaris
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:43:00 -
[1129]
Edited by: Selindra Lavaris on 25/07/2008 19:44:38 This might be the first time i write here since i don't like forums and i don't like *****ing, that been said...
CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds, that should be the job of the afterburner... so when you use and MWD you should get something like a 90% penalty to your ships agility, on top of that since you are not suposed to fight with an MWD make make it so that eigther you can't target with it on, or you have no control over you weapon system kinda like when you go it warp since it is a micro WARP drive system. i especialy like the part about the short range scram prevents the use of MWD's doing it this way you could also remove the cap penalty from the MWD...
The rest of you: No point in *****ing at me because i likely whon't read it... if you wanna discuse it contact me ingame where i can block you if you have nothing productive to add to the subject...
Shamrann out...
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:44:00 -
[1130]
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
|
|
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 19:44:00 -
[1131]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 19:44:59
Originally by: Tiirae
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
alterist, member, School of Applied Knowledge, 8 days.
Dungar Loghoth, PL, has never heard of alts. Srsly? An 8 day old character wouldn't even know what BE was ffs.
I explained my reasons for doing this a page ago.
edit:
Originally by: Selindra Lavaris This might be the first time i write here since i don't like forums and i don't like *****ing, that been said...
CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds, that should be the job of the afterburner... so when you use and MWD you should get something like a 90% penalty to your ships agility, on top of that since you are not suposed to fight with an MWD make make it so that eigther you can't target with it on, or you have no control over you weapon system kinda like when you go it warp since it is a micro WARP drive system. i especialy like the part about the short range scram prevents the use of MWD's doing it this way you could also remove the cap penalty from the MWD...
The rest of you: No point in *****ing at me because i likely whon't read it... if you wanna discuse it contact me ingame where i can block you if you have nothing productive to add to the subject...
Selindra Lavaris, member, Republic Military School, 1 Year, 1 Months, 5 Days. ---
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Zen Tao
Minmatar The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:44:00 -
[1132]
Originally by: Starfall Hammer
Originally by: Zen Tao
Originally by: Shin Ra
But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.
This: BE ( may they die a thousand deaths ) have been using non-standard fits for years with great sucess.
Just because the ultimate cookie cutter fit in the history of eve is now nerfed doesnt mean you can't use small gangs - u just have to use your head first...
Yes but the BE fit only works if you are happy to sit in a single system and camp a jump bridge, its no use for roaming and is very limited in its functionality.
it was just an example - the gist is that yuo come up with your own fits and tactics and stop relying on one single way of fitting every ship ...
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Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:44:00 -
[1133]
Comparison Chart. - Remade the ones in the devblog and put both charts into one :)
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:44:00 -
[1134]
This opens up a huge number of possibilities, for the pilot who speed tanks... for the pilot that operates in large groups, for the pilot that likes a spider tank gang.
Might I propose that dedicated blaster boats might get a AB speed bonus. The boats that are commonly fitted with either blasters or rails might need a bit of looking at, however keep in mind that when closing webs will be less of a hindrance to them as well as their opponent. In fact, the most disadvantageous situation for a blaster mega will be going up against an AB and scram equipped opponent while using a MWD themselves.
Very interesting.
We have never had a problem killing nano gangs, however this should make things much more entertaining all the way around.
And yes, people really should test the changes and provide constructive feedback on it before the come in here to have a nervous breakdown.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:47:00 -
[1135]
Originally by: Selindra Lavaris CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds
There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.
All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target ---
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Tiirae
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:47:00 -
[1136]
Originally by: Ed Kraka THIS IS BULL**** NANO FLEETS ARE NOT INVULNERABLE YOU JUST NEED THE SKILL AND KNOW HOW TO STOP THEM..
THIS IS A BUFF FOR ALL THE WHINGING CAREBEARS THAT JOINED FACTION WARFARE AND CRIED COS THEY COULDNT HIT SH*T.
ITS DISGUSTING THAT CCP IS EVEN THINKING OF NERFING EVERYTHING THAT GOES FAST. DISGUSTING!
Finally someone summarises the thread so we don't have to read all the way through it...
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Tani Hasegawa
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:47:00 -
[1137]
Edited by: Tani Hasegawa on 25/07/2008 19:50:59 Yeap. Lets nerf nano, the nano fights was too intense to be in, one mistake and you are down. The heart beats too much while you are fighting in a nano ship ( Freaking expensive and at same time fragile ), you have to prove how good you really are to not die, i cant take it anymore.
Im noob. Lets go back to: Lock Target -> Aproach -> F1-F8, way of battle, its more simple, the one with more SkillPoints wins, and now i will be able to kill something... It is too hard to keep looking for transversal velocity, check the overview for rapiers/huggins/curses/ceptors with webs, tactical overlay to not fly throgh one of them.. argh, so many things to think in a fight, NO NO NO, i cant !!! im noooob!
Its gonna be an awesome patch for noobs like me... Go go go CCP, i love you =) cant wait to sit in my drake, lock a nano ship and pwn him only pressing F1-F8 and doing nothing else... wEEEEE, im sooooo happy...
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Achura Model
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:47:00 -
[1138]
My cerberus will become just an uber pvp HAC. It's good. My huginn will suck badly. It's bad. But I like nano, so I will quit EVE and go to WAR. It's the best.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:47:00 -
[1139]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Selindra Lavaris CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds
There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.
All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target
stop answering the alts gomez ---
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DeathsEmbrace
Minmatar The Renegades Asylum DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:50:00 -
[1140]
Interesting conclusions but have you considered that this will remove the only effective way of tanking missle damage. CCp are you gonna provide another alternative to tanking missiels, as we all know that defender missiles have been broke for a long time. To live is to die, and to die is to give life. Thus pain is a form of euphoria.
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alterist
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:50:00 -
[1141]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Selindra Lavaris CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds
There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.
All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target
stop answering the alts gomez
Dungar Loghoth july 2004 to july 2008 - 331 kills 88 losses
Do you really consider yourself qualified to judge others opinions about pvp?.
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Destrukter
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:50:00 -
[1142]
don't nerf my blaster megathron, it made me sad!
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Zigg Omelo
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:52:00 -
[1143]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Avon losing their I-WIN button.
If you think nanos are the I-WIN button, you may consider using them to take a station system up north, as nothing else you do seems to be working very well.
Burn!
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Alcononymous
Caldari More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:52:00 -
[1144]
Edited by: Alcononymous on 25/07/2008 19:52:47 most of the stuff i am cool with but alot of it will kill the deimos an already broken ship..... aka its no where near the fastest and has no range what so ever and what ur saying will slow it even more so please at least atempt to fix it at the same time and dont leave my hac 5 completely and utterly useless
edit just for this 44 pages no way in hell im checking if this has already been posted my opinions are my own and don't represent the corps
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:52:00 -
[1145]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 19:52:30
Originally by: alterist
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Selindra Lavaris CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds
There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.
All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target
stop answering the alts gomez
Dungar Loghoth july 2004 to july 2008 - 331 kills 88 losses
Do you really consider yourself qualified to judge others opinions about pvp?.
I'd look you up on battleclinic, but somehow I doubt your 8-day old alt has a single one.
Given that, I'm not sure why you feel the need to post something you know absolutely nothing about. ---
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Blood Thorn
Minmatar AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:53:00 -
[1146]
So, with these changes (that are long overdue IMO), I have hope that missile launchers and assault missile launchers will again become usable in combat.
Is there anyone at CCP looking at these on the test server as well? .... [url=http://kb.intrepidcrossing.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39201] [/url] |
Zoraya Rouge
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:53:00 -
[1147]
Let's look at all the people who've posted in here....
Nanovirate... whining Polycarbon Legion... whining Against All Afterburners... whining
Carebears with no clue... thinking, that they now can kill the bove with a blink of an eye
People with half a clue... undecided until they can test it
The rest, that is posting, allthough they can't stand the silly arguments made, but having a clue is not recognized by all others, but they're spot on actually...
Nothing will change dramatically, as ships like a Vagabond will still go 4+km/sec even without Snake-Implants.
Yes I'm an alt
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:54:00 -
[1148]
Originally by: Ed Kraka THIS IS BULL**** NANO FLEETS ARE NOT INVULNERABLE YOU JUST NEED THE SKILL AND KNOW HOW TO STOP THEM..
THIS IS A BUFF FOR ALL THE WHINGING CAREBEARS THAT JOINED FACTION WARFARE AND CRIED COS THEY COULDNT HIT SH*T.
ITS DISGUSTING THAT CCP IS EVEN THINKING OF NERFING EVERYTHING THAT GOES FAST. DISGUSTING!
you sir win the thread
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:54:00 -
[1149]
Originally by: Tani Hasegawa Edited by: Tani Hasegawa on 25/07/2008 19:50:59 Yeap. Lets nerf nano, the nano fights was too intense to be in, one mistake and you are down. The heart beats too much while you are fighting in a nano ship ( Freaking expensive and at same time fragile ), you have to prove how good you really are to not die, i cant take it anymore.
Im noob. Lets go back to: Lock Target -> Aproach -> F1-F8, way of battle, its more simple, the one with more SkillPoints wins, and now i will be able to kill something... It is too hard to keep looking for transversal velocity, check the overview for rapiers/huggins/curses/ceptors with webs, tactical overlay to not fly throgh one of them.. argh, so many things to think in a fight, NO NO NO, i cant !!! im noooob!
Its gonna be an awesome patch for noobs like me... Go go go CCP, i love you =) cant wait to sit in my drake, lock a nano ship and pwn him only pressing F1-F8 and doing nothing else... wEEEEE, im sooooo happy...
i will join your corp i just destroyed low fric rigs on drake and fited core...and CCP can you please make 1 buton who will activited all mine missles so i dont nead 2 press f1f2f3f4f5f6f7f8 because thet is so hard..
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Jenny' JoJo
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:54:00 -
[1150]
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 18:38:44
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
ITT: Someone tells shadoo about remote rep.
P.S. dear god you're stupid
Nope. Learn to adapt. Eve is about evolving. If you do not adapt, you die.
Anti-remote rep tactics are very good. Remember how you used to tell people to "use brain to beat nano"? Well, use brain to beat remote rep.
Remote rep ships have low damage, some lack even full set of turrets. Remote rep range is less than web range making. You can ECM them. Bump them out of rep range. You an trick them into repping primary and secondary while you switch to attacking another target.
You can attack remote repping gangs by attacking everybody. You can use HEAVY NEUTS. No Cap = no remote rep (yeah remember how you lot used to say the same stuff to nano victims?).
You can also spread fire over several targets which breaks remote rep chains easaly. Remote rep gangs are complete rubbish currently, used mostly by people who lack tactics.
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:55:00 -
[1151]
interesting changes..... But SiSi is hardly the testing ground for pvp setups
i will wait till these go live on TQ before i pass judgment and depending on how badly these hurt the mechanics of the game will decide if another game might be better suited for my money.
im sure im not the only 1 here that thinks some of the proposed changes are possible game breakers for them.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:56:00 -
[1152]
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main? ---
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Furry Crusader
Yiffy Ventures Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:56:00 -
[1153]
I like where this thread is going.
Convo me ingame for hot cybers.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:56:00 -
[1154]
Originally by: Neth'Rae Comparison Chart. - Remade the ones in the devblog and put both charts into one :)
thank you,
Hey anybody else notice that regular frigs are gonna be faster then faction frigs? how the **** does that make sense?
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Alcononymous
Caldari More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:56:00 -
[1155]
Edited by: Alcononymous on 25/07/2008 19:57:50
Originally by: Tani Hasegawa Edited by: Tani Hasegawa on 25/07/2008 19:50:59 Yeap. Lets nerf nano, the nano fights was too intense to be in, one mistake and you are down. The heart beats too much while you are fighting in a nano ship ( Freaking expensive and at same time fragile ), you have to prove how good you really are to not die, i cant take it anymore.
Im noob. Lets go back to: Lock Target -> Aproach -> F1-F8, way of battle, its more simple, the one with more SkillPoints wins, and now i will be able to kill something... It is too hard to keep looking for transversal velocity, check the overview for rapiers/huggins/curses/ceptors with webs, tactical overlay to not fly throgh one of them.. argh, so many things to think in a fight, NO NO NO, i cant !!! im noooob!
Its gonna be an awesome patch for noobs like me... Go go go CCP, i love you =) cant wait to sit in my drake, lock a nano ship and pwn him only pressing F1-F8 and doing nothing else... wEEEEE, im sooooo happy...
quoted for effect edit fixed spelling quite drunk atm
my opinions are my own and don't represent the corps
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:58:00 -
[1156]
Edited by: Lee ChanKa on 25/07/2008 19:58:53
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 25/07/2008 19:56:54
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 18:38:44
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
ITT: Someone tells shadoo about remote rep.
P.S. dear god you're stupid
Nope. Learn to adapt. Eve is about evolving. If you do not adapt, you die.
Anti-remote rep tactics are very good. Remember how you used to tell people to "use brain to beat nano"? Well, use brain to beat remote rep.
Remote rep ships have low damage, some lack even full set of turrets. Remote rep range is less than web range making RR gangs inflexible and sitting ducks if your fleet/gang uses tactics. You can ECM/Dampen them. Bump them out of rep range. You an trick them into repping primary and secondary while you switch to attacking another target.
You can attack remote repping gangs by attacking everybody. You can use HEAVY NEUTS. No Cap = no remote rep (yeah remember how you lot used to say the same stuff to nano victims?).
You can also spread fire over several targets which breaks remote rep chains easaly. Remote rep gangs are complete rubbish currently, used mostly by people who lack tactics.
yes mister smart go wiyth RR BS gang in some hostile region 20 or 30 or 50 of you then you will c what will hapend..i dont wont 2 take some alliance in mine mouth but i hawe like 3 of them who will wiped you with supercaps...they trow supercaps on mine nano-gangs not on rr bs gang..
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Xiu Ju
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:58:00 -
[1157]
*looks around*
quickly, WotLK is coming soon!
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Junkie Beverage
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:59:00 -
[1158]
this thread rules
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Smothered Buffalo
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:59:00 -
[1159]
Originally by: alterist
Originally by: Zen Tao
Originally by: Shin Ra
But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.
This: BE ( may they die a thousand deaths ) have been using non-standard fits for years with great sucess.
Just because the ultimate cookie cutter fit in the history of eve is now nerfed doesnt mean you can't use small gangs - u just have to use your head first...
BE do not fight blobs they cloak until it is reduced to a more manageable number and they never jump through gates in a large camp. They are a virtual fixed position unless a route to another system is clear.
That is not to say that there style is not effective against numbers some what greater than their own or that their innovative style does not produce good stats, but against a blob they are not effective in the least.
QFT. BE will sit there cloaked for hours on end to try to hope that a stupid FC will make a pathetic "attempt" to get them. If the blob is larger(by larger I mean a composition they don't feel they can defeat), they remain cloaked and will not engage. I'm not saying that this is a Bad/Unfair/Cowardly/Cheesy tactic, it is a very smart and effective tactic...but it is not magically "beating blobs of larger numbers". It is simply "cloaking until a blob composition that we can defeat gives us an opportunity to engage it". That is all.
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Khanid Voltar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:00:00 -
[1160]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
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Jenny' JoJo
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:01:00 -
[1161]
Originally by: Lee ChanKa Edited by: Lee ChanKa on 25/07/2008 19:58:53
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 25/07/2008 19:56:54
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 18:38:44
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
ITT: Someone tells shadoo about remote rep.
P.S. dear god you're stupid
Nope. Learn to adapt. Eve is about evolving. If you do not adapt, you die.
Anti-remote rep tactics are very good. Remember how you used to tell people to "use brain to beat nano"? Well, use brain to beat remote rep.
Remote rep ships have low damage, some lack even full set of turrets. Remote rep range is less than web range making RR gangs inflexible and sitting ducks if your fleet/gang uses tactics. You can ECM/Dampen them. Bump them out of rep range. You an trick them into repping primary and secondary while you switch to attacking another target.
You can attack remote repping gangs by attacking everybody. You can use HEAVY NEUTS. No Cap = no remote rep (yeah remember how you lot used to say the same stuff to nano victims?).
You can also spread fire over several targets which breaks remote rep chains easaly. Remote rep gangs are complete rubbish currently, used mostly by people who lack tactics.
yes mister smart go wiyth RR BS gang in some hostile region 20 or 30 or 50 of you then you will c what will hapend..i dont wont 2 take some alliance in mine mouth but i hawe like 3 of them who will wiped you with supercaps...they trow supercaps on mine nano-gangs not on rr bs gang..
You missed my point. RR gangs are pretty crap. Saying nano is ok just because RR is strong is a falsehood since RR is crap (and RR should be crap. Logistic ships should be repping each other - not combat ships)
Oh and any Minmatar Nerf = Happy JoJo
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
Smothered Buffalo
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:02:00 -
[1162]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:02:00 -
[1163]
Being primarily Caldari, it makes me a little happy in the pants since my Crow will still be uber, but I have to say that the scrambler changes are just flat-out WRONG!
First, you nerf modules (damps, sensor boosters, tracking comps) having multiple bonuses by introducing scripts, forcing us to select one bonus or the other. Now, you change a module that had a single, useful bonus, and add an additional bonus to it for no penalty whatsoever.
Granted, it will still be a chore getting within 7.5 KMs to activate the damn thing, but it should at least be scripted to bring it in line with other modules. One script for disabling MWD, one script for warp scrambling. Otherwise, just introduce a new module to counter MWD's. (Hint: there already is one...it's called a neut!) -----------------------------------------
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El Mauru
Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:02:00 -
[1164]
Corpies and alliance mates alike will want to kill me for this but I like these changes- Might be because I hate having to nano my ships :-S
But exactly that seem to have been the problem until now- you kinda HAD to take part- there were no other options but RR or nano - if only in public opinion :-/
+ it sounds really interesting :D -
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ISpydeRI
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:03:00 -
[1165]
hey i got an idea , lets leave the game as it is , and FIX THE LAG facepalms, ccp , fails hard yet again
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:04:00 -
[1166]
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Nope. Learn to adapt. Eve is about evolving. If you do not adapt, you die.
Anti-remote rep tactics are very good. Remember how you used to tell people to "use brain to beat nano"? Well, use brain to beat remote rep.
Remote rep ships have low damage, some lack even full set of turrets. Remote rep range is less than web range making RR gangs inflexible and sitting ducks if your fleet/gang uses tactics. You can ECM/Dampen them. Bump them out of rep range. You an trick them into repping primary and secondary while you switch to attacking another target.
You can attack remote repping gangs by attacking everybody. You can use HEAVY NEUTS. No Cap = no remote rep (yeah remember how you lot used to say the same stuff to nano victims?).
You can also spread fire over several targets which breaks remote rep chains easaly. Remote rep gangs are complete rubbish currently, used mostly by people who lack tactics.
Oh Wow...
You're trying to teach me like I've never flown a remote rep bs before right? Cos I mean... all pandemic legion ever flies is nanohacs, all CI / SPA / TRI ever flew was nanohacs, and all Priory / SoD ever flew was nanohacs.
Just a little hint, this character has not left a battleship for more than an hour or two in the last year.
---
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thoraxius demioses
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:04:00 -
[1167]
aaah crap.. i trained my wrong char for pvp.. what a waste.. my caldari industry alt wil be better equipt now...
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PuncherDavis
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:05:00 -
[1168]
Noah im dam proud of you guys ccp is restoring some faith,
NOW FIX THE DAM MARKET interface and throw a coffe cup at those guys to upgrade it...A 5th grader with excel could make a nicer looking one imo. And one with better interface and user options.
As for those that are whining about why they cant go into enemy space in ur super nano ship.. PERHAPS you should consider what black ops was designed for... NOT the super elite with isk out the butt that could go LUDICROUS SPEEDS.
For those that whine about CAN we have 50% off everthing else..STHU and can I have your stuff..OR as we get told AdAPT and overcome this aint wow where we change ur diaper and your pacifier for you.
The hypocresy in eve is at LUDICROUS speed as well...WOnder if that will ever get nerfed
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:05:00 -
[1169]
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?
I have no problem with people having an opinion that is different than my own; I have a problem when people try to use alts to artificially bloat the support this patch has. ---
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:05:00 -
[1170]
DO NOT WRECK BLASTER SHIPS
Not enough of this in the last few pages tbh. Epic thread, 10/10, would read again.
News of the change has reached german nanopilots. -
DesuSigs |
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Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:07:00 -
[1171]
I ♥ the NerfBat ♥
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Xelloss Metallum
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 -
[1172]
Originally by: Furry Crusader I like where this thread is going.
The rickshaw?
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 -
[1173]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 25/07/2008 20:10:09
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Why nerfing webs, I really don't understand ?
"web is gameover", I really don't agree ! Since you still can instant warp out like how the game behaves when webbing an unaligned warping-out freighter, where is it gameover ?
The gameover is "web/scrambled". You just said web+scramble have a "overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%", so am I just dumb or isn't it much greater gameover than before ?
I really don't understand the reasons of this web nerf.
To me, all your problems would have been solved by doing this simple tiny thing : putting scripts on webs. For a tech II web version, something like 3 configs : - max velocity bonus -90 Optimal Range 10 km with a velocity script - max velocity bonus -72.5 Optimal Range 15 km without script - max velocity bonus -45 Optimal Range 20 km with a range script <--- there, most nanoships can't shoot real damage at more than 20km.
Oh and since I really hope someone read this, since CCP will touch all the tracking by modifying transversal speeds, will not solving once and for all the target painting problem too (aka the "not on my boat module") ?
Fetchez la vache !
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 -
[1174]
Originally by: Khanid Voltar
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Areo Hotah
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
more sensible posts like this please
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Furry Crusader
Yiffy Ventures Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 -
[1175]
My ship's top speed is 79.6m/s :(
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Cynthia Ysolde
Tritanium Workers Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:10:00 -
[1176]
hey guise i'm an alt lol
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:10:00 -
[1177]
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
Originally by: Lee ChanKa Edited by: Lee ChanKa on 25/07/2008 19:58:53
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 25/07/2008 19:56:54
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 18:38:44
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
ECM and ECM Bust > Remote rep.
Also remote rep without ECM is easy to beat. Only the primary or secondary gets remote repped. Just pick off people outside remote rep range etc. Remote rep ships lack damagemods etc. Very vurnerable to competent fleets. In fact, some of the top pvp alliances never use remote rep.
Oh Wait, that means you have to look at the battlefield tactically insted of firing MWD?
ITT: Someone tells shadoo about remote rep.
P.S. dear god you're stupid
Nope. Learn to adapt. Eve is about evolving. If you do not adapt, you die.
Anti-remote rep tactics are very good. Remember how you used to tell people to "use brain to beat nano"? Well, use brain to beat remote rep.
Remote rep ships have low damage, some lack even full set of turrets. Remote rep range is less than web range making RR gangs inflexible and sitting ducks if your fleet/gang uses tactics. You can ECM/Dampen them. Bump them out of rep range. You an trick them into repping primary and secondary while you switch to attacking another target.
You can attack remote repping gangs by attacking everybody. You can use HEAVY NEUTS. No Cap = no remote rep (yeah remember how you lot used to say the same stuff to nano victims?).
You can also spread fire over several targets which breaks remote rep chains easaly. Remote rep gangs are complete rubbish currently, used mostly by people who lack tactics.
yes mister smart go wiyth RR BS gang in some hostile region 20 or 30 or 50 of you then you will c what will hapend..i dont wont 2 take some alliance in mine mouth but i hawe like 3 of them who will wiped you with supercaps...they trow supercaps on mine nano-gangs not on rr bs gang..
You missed my point. RR gangs are pretty crap. Saying nano is ok just because RR is strong is a falsehood since RR is crap (and RR should be crap. Logistic ships should be repping each other - not combat ships)
Oh and any Minmatar Nerf = Happy JoJo
From what I have seen while flying in d00m RR gangs is we roll into a system with 20 t2 fit, well skilled battleships piloted by players who definitly know what the **** they are doing and we get nailed by 3 times the number of ships. We cant escape these blobs so we sit their and fight it out, in the end killing more of them than they of us but taking far more in monetary losses. we ARE trying other things than nano and they DONT WORK against the blobs. RR is a slight improvement tot he brute force mentality but is not the be all end all solution to combat. It almost always results in your opponenent waiting until his fleet is big enough to win.
Fun.
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N'olive
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:12:00 -
[1178]
Quote: Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
For the 2 minmatars recons that's even a 1600% nerf, because they usually have 2. Target was slowed down 100 times before, soon it will be 6 times. With 3 webs the target will be 15 times slower.
_______________ Olivier C., providing fleet support since 1902 - IAC's french wing, unique member - My Eve videos |
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:14:00 -
[1179]
Nerf bat is no longer a nerf bat... petition to change name to Nerf Hamm0r
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Wolf Parade
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:14:00 -
[1180]
If these changes go though, I'm ending my 2 accounts.
This is nerfing small gangs and pvp in general, thus my will to play eve.
Leave Eve's speed how it is, ignore stupid care bears.
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Cynthia Ysolde
Tritanium Workers Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:15:00 -
[1181]
Originally by: N'olive
Quote: Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
For the 2 minmatars recons that's even a 1600% nerf, because they usually have 2. Target was slowed down 100 times before, soon it will be 6 times. With 3 webs the target will be 15 times slower.
1600? that's almost over nine thou--
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Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:15:00 -
[1182]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Do WCS counter the Warp Scramblers ability to disable MWD's?
- No, not in our current implementation. We've thought about it, but as is, they don't.
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Will my MWD be affected by Bubbles?
- No, it won't.
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Are you realy that ****ing stupid? Small roaming gangs once worked when there was 20k less players on the server, all you will achieve by this nerf is destroying so many ship types and ways off fighting. Defending cyno jammed systems will be so easy you might aswell give the current sov holding alliances permament sov over there systems, you are just encouraging blobbing when you cant even handle anything bigger than 20vs20 well, i like flying fast ships, i liking flying sniping ships, i enjoy flying tanked bs but you are just ****ing over every aspect of pvp with your half arsed attempt at balancing nano speeds.
Do you guys even play this game, its hard enough to try and fight the 500 man blobs that rule 0.0 know you want to make it impossible? the only people who are happy with this change are people who only know numbers > everything else. Do i atleast get a kiss to go along with this nerf because i liked to be kissed when im being ****ed.
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Smothered Buffalo
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:15:00 -
[1183]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?
I have no problem with people having an opinion that is different than my own; I have a problem when people try to use alts to artificially bloat the support this patch has.
oh, you think ccp will decide if this should be nerfed by counting the number of forum posts?
lawl
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:16:00 -
[1184]
Originally by: Prez21
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Do WCS counter the Warp Scramblers ability to disable MWD's?
- No, not in our current implementation. We've thought about it, but as is, they don't.
Do Warp Scramblers still disable your warp drive?
- Yupp.
Will my MWD be affected by Bubbles?
- No, it won't.
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Are you realy that ****ing stupid? Small roaming gangs once worked when there was 20k less players on the server, all you will achieve by this nerf is destroying so many ship types and ways off fighting. Defending cyno jammed systems will be so easy you might aswell give the current sov holding alliances permament sov over there systems, you are just encouraging blobbing when you cant even handle anything bigger than 20vs20 well, i like flying fast ships, i liking flying sniping ships, i enjoy flying tanked bs but you are just ****ing over every aspect of pvp with your half arsed attempt at balancing nano speeds.
Do you guys even play this game, its hard enough to try and fight the 500 man blobs that rule 0.0 know you want to make it impossible? the only people who are happy with this change are people who only know numbers > everything else. Do i atleast get a kiss to go along with this nerf because i liked to be kissed when im being ****ed.
Quoting my alliance brosef for absolute truth.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:16:00 -
[1185]
I'm glad to see a change is finally being made to an aspect of the game that is flat out broken. The arguments coming from most of the pro-nano players tend to fall under "Well I put in time training for it" and "It cost me a lot of money", both of which are nothing but pathetic attempts at defending a problem aspect of the game that let them feel skilled in ways they aren't, as skilled players will do just fine, and those who relied on overkill nanos will just die because their overkill is balanced.
I have a question for the 'My snakes cost X billion isk' crowd:
If your 3-4 billion ISK snakes let you be that overpowered, then will you help me argue that rarer, more expensive mods are made godly too? Estamel's invuln goes for an easy 10-15 billion isk.
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Lysander Kaldenn
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:16:00 -
[1186]
Further proof of the idiocy of video game democracy. Is it not bad parenting to give your child a cookie because it cries for one for days on end? Cookies are unbalanced, please nerf baking.
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LuthienTinuviel
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:17:00 -
[1187]
nice CCP just as I was starting to get back in to the game properly you decide to **** it up royally...
Quote: That being said, this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis
If this is what you came up with tbh it scares me... god forbid someone got you 4 to sit down and speak about world peace or something really important .
Seriously I know the Caldari militia are sucking guys but maybe the dev's should move any alts they have to another militia and stop making this caldari online again.
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Bassius
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:18:00 -
[1188]
Good going on ruining the game, just to help unexperienced mission runners who went to FW.
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Agmar
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:18:00 -
[1189]
Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:20:00 -
[1190]
Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 20:22:09
Originally by: Thorradin I'm glad to see a change is finally being made to an aspect of the game that is flat out broken. The arguments coming from most of the pro-nano players tend to fall under "Well I put in time training for it" and "It cost me a lot of money", both of which are nothing but pathetic attempts at defending a problem aspect of the game that let them feel skilled in ways they aren't, as skilled players will do just fine, and those who relied on overkill nanos will just die because their overkill is balanced.
I have a question for the 'My snakes cost X billion isk' crowd:
If your 3-4 billion ISK snakes let you be that overpowered, then will you help me argue that rarer, more expensive mods are made godly too? Estamel's invuln goes for an easy 10-15 billion isk.
Thorradin, four month old Caldari FW alt.
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo oh, you think ccp will decide if this should be nerfed by counting the number of forum posts?lawl
No, I dont, but if I give them pause and make them question why there are so many mains posting against the patch and so many alts posting support for it, then I've achieved my goal. ---
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:20:00 -
[1191]
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
Star Wars Galaxies.
There I said it. Am I the first?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:21:00 -
[1192]
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
Yes, at the previous big ****up from CCP, you know, when the dev cheated and CCP let him get off easy while banning the whistleblower. That was more pages per day I'm sure.
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Re'quiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:21:00 -
[1193]
Awesome, the FW Caldari whiners got what they wanted. Press F1-F8, pwn everything in range, dock up, talk in corp how 'leet' you are 'cause you showed everyone to respect your T1 Drake/Raven fit.
So, CCP: When will I get a counter to missiles??! WHINE, WHINE, WHINE!!! I want a low-slot module that slows down the explosion velocity of missiles by 80% and a mid-slot module that causes all missiles to self-destruct when they are 1k away from my ship. WHINE WHINE WHINE
Thank you very much!
WHINE WHINE WHINE
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:22:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
Star Wars Galaxies.
There I said it. Am I the first?
I believe sir you are.
Its unbelievable to think these Devs even have a remote clue how the game is played.... Blob away ret3rds, blob away.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:22:00 -
[1195]
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?
I have no problem with people having an opinion that is different than my own; I have a problem when people try to use alts to artificially bloat the support this patch has.
oh, you think ccp will decide if this should be nerfed by counting the number of forum posts?
lawl
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
You are quite dumb aren't you?
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:23:00 -
[1196]
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
Yeah, when other horrible decisions were made, such as removing the market forums.
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Mad Girl
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:23:00 -
[1197]
Well i play long enought and see alot of ***** in eve and this is one of those ...well no its the bigest ***** that i ever see in eve !!!
Thank you CCP for ruining EVE ...or thank you for killing medium and small gang's for benefit of large onse whit this patch come the great LAG fest !!!And they say they try to make EVE less LAG YEA THINK AGAIN !!!
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:23:00 -
[1198]
no the point is ppl are tierd of nerfing and patches and thingis...
just fix damn lag focus all your ccp team 2 fix thet and 2 improve game on thet field and we will all be HAPPY MORE THEN IF YOU NERF EVRITHING like you started...
i will go then in fleet fight i promise..
if you open tread about how you will reduce lags in sistems it will be 200 pages in 6 hours and all ppl will salute to you ccp..
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:25:00 -
[1199]
My sideways-warping Obelisk, oh how I will miss it so...
Blockade runners are going to be hit hard too...
This doesn't just affect PVP ships you know...
While I do agree that nano ships have become overwhelmingly common, which is generally a bad thing, I think a better approach would be to introduce more tools for countering them rather than nerfing everything about them in general. For example, long range webbers make nano ships run for the hills, as do long range neuts.
Of course the problem really comes when you have a ship doing 4 KM/S that can web 40KMs away down to -90%. That is the primary reasoning behind the web nerf. Giving the players more options to deal with a specific tactic or setup is always a better alternative than just removing that tactic altogether. -----------------------------------------
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Agmar
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:25:00 -
[1200]
Word.
I'ma just be content in my 82.4 m/s ship and watch the fireworks. Call me when the patch is released.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:25:00 -
[1201]
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan? ---
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:26:00 -
[1202]
This is quite possibly the worst nerf and the biggest mistake ccp have ever tried to implement, even if you ignore all the points that the experienced players have shown on this and other threads the fact is that a huge percentage of the player base is having what they feel is the most enjoyable style of pvp removed from the game.
This fact alone should give ccp pause before removing such an enjoyable form of game play.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Agmar
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:27:00 -
[1203]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?
About 1 post. Tell Space Flyer I said what's up.
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Nyx Opet
Caldari Top Secret Robot Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:27:00 -
[1204]
thanks for killing blasterboats. appreciate it.
seriously, do you guys play this game?
all the changes were okay right up until you decided that 50% webs were a good idea. blasterboats will be completely unable to lock a target down now because our guns' abysmal tracking cant hit jack shit.
unless you propose we keep our mwd on just to stay in range. cuz blasterboats have so much free cap >.<
oh, afterburner you say? how on earth are we ever getting in range within the next century?
/angry
--- What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion. |
Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:28:00 -
[1205]
Originally by: Agmar
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?
About 1 post. Tell Space Flyer I said what's up.
Only 1?
Tell Sel I said what's up?
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Etien Aldragoran
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:31:00 -
[1206]
Glad I sold my t2 cruiser character as it's skillpoints are going to be worthless since the ships it could fly cant tank worth half a damn.
Pitty that CCP has seemingly forgotten about the Huggin and Rapier bonus to web range. A 20 and 24km web that reduces the target's speed by 20% or 30% would have solved this as well.
Minmatar are going to need a huge boost after this.
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Zarthanon
Gallente TEAMSTERS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:32:00 -
[1207]
Originally by: Nyx Opet thanks for killing blasterboats. appreciate it.
seriously, do you guys play this game?
all the changes were okay right up until you decided that 50% webs were a good idea. blasterboats will be completely unable to lock a target down now because our guns' abysmal tracking cant hit jack shit.
unless you propose we keep our mwd on just to stay in range. cuz blasterboats have so much free cap >.<
oh, afterburner you say? how on earth are we ever getting in range within the next century?
/angry
Agreed. If blasterboats already weren't hard enough to fly--either way--the most problem I see is the billions of isk I have spent on snakes, nerfing them by 50%ish is crazy. Waste of the isk now. Everything else is generally decent, but the snakes, NOOOOOOO I like pie. |
Smothered Buffalo
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:33:00 -
[1208]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Smothered Buffalo
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?
I have no problem with people having an opinion that is different than my own; I have a problem when people try to use alts to artificially bloat the support this patch has.
oh, you think ccp will decide if this should be nerfed by counting the number of forum posts?
lawl
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
You are quite dumb aren't you?
you must not of understood my intent.
that pandemic guy is trying to discount arguments based on the character being an "alt". all im trying to say is that its the content of the top quality replies in the entire thread that ccp will listen to, not stupid one-liners made by alts. i never once said "STOP DISCUSSING THIS!" i was just lashing out at the pandemic guy for making 897343 posts trying to discredit somebody's argument based on them being an "alt" instead of trying to actually discredit the ARGUMENT. that is the only point i was trying to make. was just trying to show him how stupid it is to use "alt status" as way to discredit an argument. he should be using reason and logic instead. i dont know if this nerf is good or not. based on the replies it looks like it is quite flawed in its initial implementation and based on some of the high-quality replies in this thread, they will likely comprehend some of these concerns(thus, the point of this thread, for them to get input and make an appropriate decision). but yeah, i agree with you and im not sure where i stated that "what the devs said should not be changed". my point: counting posts is pointless. the quality replies are the only one that will get examined more thouroughly so the pandemic guy should instead think up good arguments to some of the alts who reply, instead of simply insisting "THIS CHAR IS AN ALT! ANYTHING HE SAYS CAN'T BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!"
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Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:34:00 -
[1209]
Utterly ridiculous changes that will completely ruin the game.
Are they at least gonna make a new expansion and call it 'Eve: the Age of the Blob?
Let us play the game the way we want to instead of forcing everybody into battleships. At least right now there's variety. If these changes go through, you'll have to be in a big slow ship or you'll die.
I guess they're following all the other MMO's out there with their adage of 'bigger is always better'.
CELESTE LOTTERIES |
Foocurr
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:34:00 -
[1210]
so you say disabling mwd + 60% webber is more effective than 90% webber eh?
well, if i am solo, how am i supposed to keep something from warping with a 9km scram? do you expect me to fit a 3 slot tackle? scram+disruptor+web. sounds pretty shit to me.
i like the other changes, but here are your steps to success:
1. keep 90% web 2. change whatever else you want.(you can change blue to orange for all i care) 3. win
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:34:00 -
[1211]
wrong way taken with this imho.
I would prefer to nerf polys and snakes, and boost the AB only. the rest seems to pretty much kill whatever small-scale pvp that there was with the age of the blob. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:35:00 -
[1212]
It basically comes down to this:
Vagabond - broken - NERF ALL SPEED MODS!
Rapier - broken - NERF WEBS! -----------------------------------------
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:36:00 -
[1213]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
Star Wars Galaxies.
There I said it. Am I the first?
I believe sir you are.
Its unbelievable to think these Devs even have a remote clue how the game is played.... Blob away ret3rds, blob away.
I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, thats why they are introducing the changes. Blob away you say ? I remember the 50 nano hacs gangs you guys were using in Providence... Like you used to say ...ADAPT!
________________ God is my Wingman |
Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:36:00 -
[1214]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
really? how did those gangs deal with jump bridges? titan bridges? 400 man gangs?!?!?! Oh ya...there weren't any
You make all of the pro-blob changes, argue that there was small gang pvp prior to snakes etc....ya, when 5 man gangs were considered big, and carriers were exceptionally rare...seriously do you play the game or just run missions?!?!
You have made massive pro-blob changes and now you completely pretend they don't exist...and think we can go back to old time pvp...because giant alliance A wont see our slow gang coming and jump bridge triple our numbers right infront of us...no that won't happen?!
Seriously total fail...
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:38:00 -
[1215]
Fix the Lag, you can nerf the speed.
Ships go faster then missles? fine increase the missle speed.
Slow the ships down, fine move us ALOT further from the gate on jump in.
The issue here is lag, again speed is the only way the avoid the blob. Or does CCP just expect us to use our Titans to get on grid everytime there is a larger gang on the other side of a gate?
Oh wait here is a crazy idea, how about finding some way for us to jump into a camp without everyone else seeing (and shooting) your ship before you even load grid?
That should be what your working on, not these continued stupid nerf's
In case you haven't noticed the forums, all your carebear customers that went to FW are just discovering EVE DOESN'T WORK. Strongly suggest you fix the real issues.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:38:00 -
[1216]
Originally by: DeadDuck
I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, thats why they are introducing the changes. Blob away you say ? I remember the 50 nano hacs gangs you guys were using in Providence... Like you used to say ...ADAPT!
And you managed to counter quite well considering your alliance mostly flies Amarr.
What's your point?
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Morgane leFey
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:38:00 -
[1217]
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:39:00 -
[1218]
Ok, so these are the 5 objectives.
1. Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. 2. There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. 3. Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. 4. Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. 5. Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
Why didn't you choose a different set of changes that would have achieved this?
For example: - Introduce a new drone type or drone skill that gives additional speed to drones. Or add a new module that increases drone speeds. - Introduce a new skill that increases explosion velocity of missiles, and unnerf T2 precision missiles so their (explosion)speed is increased and they don't decrease speed of the ship using them. And fix the T2 heavy precision missiles. Or add a module that increases explosion velocity. - Nerfing the Snakes is probably inevitable. - Increase the speedboost of ABs to 250% and add an agility bonus to them (imagine it adds vectored thrust for better maneuvring or so).
What I think you should be going for is a setup where people can't reach speeds in excess of roughly 12kms anymore. Mostly that means nerfing snakes. If you wanna be nice to the snake owner, give them a different bonus instead, either agility or sig radius perhaps. And then you need to introduce a few tweaks that allows people to actually have a chance at hitting someone going 10-12kms, IF they make an effort for it. I.e. the right ammo/modules fitted.
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:42:00 -
[1219]
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
really? how did those gangs deal with jump bridges? titan bridges? 400 man gangs?!?!?! Oh ya...there weren't any
You make all of the pro-blob changes, argue that there was small gang pvp prior to snakes etc....ya, when 5 man gangs were considered big, and carriers were exceptionally rare...seriously do you play the game or just run missions?!?!
You have made massive pro-blob changes and now you completely pretend they don't exist...and think we can go back to old time pvp...because giant alliance A wont see our slow gang coming and jump bridge triple our numbers right infront of us...no that won't happen?!
Seriously total fail...
QFT...
Dunno how many times I've narrowly avoided a MM blob that jump bridged ahead of me on a roam.
"This needs to be looked at CCP" ****... fix blobs. I haven't seen much changes to "fix" blob warfare in 2 years even though it's always a subject. ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar! |
Wicked Princess
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:43:00 -
[1220]
Instead of nerfing something else....why not fix the one thing that impacts EVERYONE? The lag.
Nerfing nano and pushing even more toward large blobs is only going to exacerbate the base problem of lag.
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Lorzion
Minmatar Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:43:00 -
[1221]
One thing targeted twords the "Nano***s need to learn to adapt" thing
lol? are your kidding me? you couldn't adapt by bringing a minmatar Recon with you? what about a Large Nuet? why can't you adapt?
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 -
[1222]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/07/2008 20:45:27 Nanos arent the only way you can effectively do small gang pvp and imo they ruin solo pvp.
Nanos might be the only way to fight blobs, or at least one of the few ways. However: 1. Blobs are broken, doesnt mean nanos should also be broken. 2. Stop trying to fight blobs, go arround them.
And hit and run tactics/guerilla war is not the same as orbitting your opponent at 3-5 km/s
@lorzion, how will a heavy neut kill a nano? No way a battleship is in web range before you are gone.
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Loka xDD
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 -
[1223]
Lets see the good points about nerfing nano...
When u get in a fight, u can lock the target, press F1-F8.. and, alt tab to check e-mails, phone a friend and tell him hows the fight.. You can even download and watch some pron on internet go to bathroom, have some fun there and come back to check hows the fight...
In small gangs while u are fighting nanos u have to call ppls with webs in TeamSpeak, call jammings, commands to get out, alot of stuffs like that. Now u dont have to worry about it anymore, the TS will be way more clean, and u have time to say jokes, sing, and, oh, u will not need TS anymore... just broadcast the target, F1-F8 and wait =D
hmmmm The ships will be cheap too =D BS with insurance.. woooooot, im not gonna lose 100mil hacs and get 7mil isk back anymore =D
and yeahhhh!!! when hostiles enter in the system with 5x less people than us, lets buble them and blob them, hotdrop them, and KILL THEM ALL!!! wooooooooottt!! They cant escape anymore!!!!! awesome=D otherwise stay docked.. ofcourse...
should i go on? cant wait to this patch reach TQ... nano fights make me too concentrate while fighting, i cant even blink my eyes.. nah, i wanna do others stuffs while fighting... BS/BC/Blobs ftw...
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 -
[1224]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
For example: - Introduce a new drone type or drone skill that gives additional speed to drones. Or add a new module that increases drone speeds. - Introduce a new skill that increases explosion velocity of missiles, and unnerf T2 precision missiles so their (explosion)speed is increased and they don't decrease speed of the ship using them. And fix the T2 heavy precision missiles. Or add a module that increases explosion velocity. - Nerfing the Snakes is probably inevitable. - Increase the speedboost of ABs to 250% and add an agility bonus to them (imagine it adds vectored thrust for better maneuvring or so).
What I think you should be going for is a setup where people can't reach speeds in excess of roughly 12kms anymore. Mostly that means nerfing snakes. If you wanna be nice to the snake owner, give them a different bonus instead, either agility or sig radius perhaps. And then you need to introduce a few tweaks that allows people to actually have a chance at hitting someone going 10-12kms, IF they make an effort for it. I.e. the right ammo/modules fitted.
They mentioned testing "high speed" misssiles and drones, and apparently the physics engine couldn't handle it. Not saying that its ok to rebalance everything due to a tech limitation, but it was examined.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 -
[1225]
Originally by: DeadDuck I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, thats why they are introducing the changes. Blob away you say ? I remember the 50 nano hacs gangs you guys were using in Providence... Like you used to say ...ADAPT!
I don't remember exactly but wasn't that 50 man nanogang brought out while you were defending a cynojammer with the entire provi superfriends fleet of like 100+? ---
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notaway
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:45:00 -
[1226]
This is just wonderful--yesterday I bought a Domination web and earlier today I began to build two polycarbon rigs for the Rapier I just bought and now I see this post--it seems this will devalue both--at least I haven't installed the polycarbs yet. I guess the web bonus for the rapier will still apply.
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Benedic
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:46:00 -
[1227]
Basing balancing on SiSi combat is pretty awesome. Pretty sure it's fairly representative of actual combat on TQ, everyone has HG pirate implants, faction gear, strong drugs and fleet commandships sitting safespotted running as many gang links there too, right?
Awesome devs are awesome.
Luckily I will just keep spinnin in my station, your crazy nerfs better not influence my spin speed :\
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Daelan Lok'errt
SoT
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:54:00 -
[1228]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Ok, so these are the 5 objectives.
1. Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. 2. There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. 3. Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. 4. Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. 5. Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
Why didn't you choose a different set of changes that would have achieved this?
For example: - Introduce a new drone type or drone skill that gives additional speed to drones. Or add a new module that increases drone speeds. - Introduce a new skill that increases explosion velocity of missiles, and unnerf T2 precision missiles so their (explosion)speed is increased and they don't decrease speed of the ship using them. And fix the T2 heavy precision missiles. Or add a module that increases explosion velocity. - Nerfing the Snakes is probably inevitable. - Increase the speedboost of ABs to 250% and add an agility bonus to them (imagine it adds vectored thrust for better maneuvring or so).
What I think you should be going for is a setup where people can't reach speeds in excess of roughly 12kms anymore. Mostly that means nerfing snakes. If you wanna be nice to the snake owner, give them a different bonus instead, either agility or sig radius perhaps. And then you need to introduce a few tweaks that allows people to actually have a chance at hitting someone going 10-12kms, IF they make an effort for it. I.e. the right ammo/modules fitted.
Well, actually there's already a module that increases drone speed: Drone Navigation Computer. There are setups for missile ships that are effective even against ceptors leave alone relatively slower HACs (i'm not talking about 1 in a thousand developer dreamland setups with snake set, T2 polycarbons and faction modules, mind you) there's heavy neuts there's ships with bonuses to neut range there's ships with bonuses to web range
All in all, there's a *uckload of effective anti-nano out there already, but see, the point of this nerf is not to create a balanced pvp, but to just make it possible for a carebear in a drake or a raven or whatever to effectively fight off anything smaller without having to think, to specialize, to (omfg, no) refit.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:54:00 -
[1229]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time. -----
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:55:00 -
[1230]
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo two things i'd like to point out that some people seem to have ignored for whatever reason: a similar situation has cropped up several times in eve history - oversized afterburners being de rigeur, same for double MWDs at a different point. Each time the proposed changes came with a relatively similar amount of whining, phrased as 'you're removing all the fun out of the game', 'you're killing small-gang pvp' and, perhaps most memorably 'i quit' - i wonder how many people actually did as a result.
secondly, small gang pvp existed in eve long before boosters, rigs and snake sets. somehow it is wholly and utterly doomed now that speeds are to be lowered
oh, the irony.
QFT
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Isben Yamas
The Dandy KillerS
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:55:00 -
[1231]
Edited by: Isben Yamas on 25/07/2008 20:56:23 Only the web changes are anoying me.
I was thinking about using the signature radius in the effectiveness of a webifier. The idea is to encourage ships to have the lower signature radius to keep their speed. An inty with no mwd would only lose 50% of his velocity. But if he is using mwd, he will loose 90% of his velocity.
it's just an exemple, but the signature bonus on inty would be very usefull. Assault ships would have a new life with an afterburner against big targets. Combined with the others changes, ludicrous speed would be totally useless to kill anything.
Sorry for ugly english, if you need more details, contact me Isben
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Kell Braugh
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:56:00 -
[1232]
i agree with the intent and general direction of the changes, but the 9k scram stopping the mwd is just stupid. I enjoy the dynamics of a 90% web on a guy with a 500% increased sig much much better...
If your intent was to also nerf minnie recons, okay, keep the increased range of webs but reduce effectiveness.
role: 50% reduction in effectiveness, 60% range bonus for webs.
If its one thing id like to see in *how* these changes are made, its with tiny single attribute modifications and an all at once, sweeping change to any ship that used speed as an advantage- if for nothing else, but to allow players to adapt their play style and assets accordingly.
- EFT screen shots are NOT an accurate example of a ship's abilities. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:57:00 -
[1233]
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Actually, no they don't. They simply realize that while a reduction in speed means they may actually be able to hit you from time to time, it doesn't automatically mean that they will be able to do any significant damage to you at the speeds you will STILL be able to travel at.
Try again please.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Karjala Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:57:00 -
[1234]
Speed nerf - Finally
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:58:00 -
[1235]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo two things i'd like to point out that some people seem to have ignored for whatever reason: a similar situation has cropped up several times in eve history - oversized afterburners being de rigeur, same for double MWDs at a different point. Each time the proposed changes came with a relatively similar amount of whining, phrased as 'you're removing all the fun out of the game', 'you're killing small-gang pvp' and, perhaps most memorably 'i quit' - i wonder how many people actually did as a result.
secondly, small gang pvp existed in eve long before boosters, rigs and snake sets. somehow it is wholly and utterly doomed now that speeds are to be lowered
oh, the irony.
QFT
good thing nothing else in eve has changed, otherwise this might have been an unfair comparison! -----
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:58:00 -
[1236]
Originally by: Tempest Kane
Originally by: viper zulu
<--- Wishes I still had my titan:(
Originally by: viper zulu Yaay didn't you just loose a titan in your alliance? I think you need better FC's!
In fairness atleast they used their titan (-:
Actually, we had some nano FCs from the north running the circus that day :-)
It's the Economy Stupid |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 20:58:00 -
[1237]
Edited by: Avon on 25/07/2008 20:59:28
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw.
And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough?
Honestly, that is a terrible arguement.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:59:00 -
[1238]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: No, I dont, but if I give them pause and make them question why there are so many mains posting against the patch and so many alts posting support for it, then I've achieved my goal.
Want to run that one by me again Dungar?
I imagine quite a few tweaks well be tested before this all hits Tranquility, so everyone calm down a bit.
As has happened in the past, people tend to whip themselves into a frenzy whenever their "flavor of the month" is threatened to be balanced. Interesting term, flavor of the month. By its very nature it suggests that it will not last forever... people tend to forget that.
Speed tanking, in reality, has not achieved such popularity because it is the only answer available to counter blobs. Come on, admit it. Speed tanking is so overwhelmingly popular that even the "blobs" are using it.
Its also true that a hefty proportion of the pilots that enjoy high kill/death ratios when speed tanking are no more skilled than any other average pilot... however they do have the money available to throw extremely expensive equipment out there. Read that again. Most speed tankers (the ones enjoying the benefits of Ludicrous Speed as it has been put) do well because of the amount of isk in their wallets, not due to any sudden overwhelming increase in their level of skill.
Truth hurts, I know. I'll join you in a group hug after the patch.
Skilled pilots will do just fine with these changes, pilots with more isk than skill will get angry and quit or move on to the next flavor of the month.
Either way, lets keep in civil. I've had my favorite play style curbed a bit from time to time to make the game more balanced (and truthfully, more enjoyable in the long run). I survived nicely, I'm fairly sure you will too.
Best post I've seen so far.
And no, I haven't read all of them (you're kidding, right?)
Although I reiterate my amusement at the whaaaaaaaaa WHAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA comments coming from a few of the one trick ponies in the universe.
Honestly, if you hadn't already noticed yet - CCP know they've got it balanced when they get a 40 page lol'naught going.
Keep it up guys! Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:59:00 -
[1239]
Originally by: Yaay
Actually, we had some terrible pilots account sharing supercapitals that day
Fixed that bit for you.
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Klak
Caldari Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:00:00 -
[1240]
I don't understand the complaints about blasterboats. A disruptor does nothing to MWD. Webs currently function at 10k. Warp scramblers will work at 10k (or less). SO WHAT IN THE **** IS CHANGING?
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ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:00:00 -
[1241]
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
People seem to forget explosion velocity all the time as well.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:01:00 -
[1242]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/07/2008 20:59:28
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw.
And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough?
Honestly, that is a terrible arguement.
Not only that, speed still reduces missle damage... so zomg, we're taking 40 dps from missles going 2.5 km/s rather than .7 dps from missles going 4km/s and 0 dps going 5km/s.
It's the Economy Stupid |
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 21:01:00 -
[1243]
I was anticipating these changes, as shoud have everyone else.
As it stands snake implants and speed give you a level of invulnerabiliy that no other method of ship fitting can. Slave and crystal implants are a joke compared to snakes...as is any other setup then speed.
I wish they would go another route personaly, maybe a slight reduction in ship speed, plus an introduction of different webifiers with longer range and lower affects.
If speed was your crutch before and you didnt anticipate these changes based on the balance of the game you were blind.
This nerfs blaster setups far more then nano setups. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Kyguard
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:02:00 -
[1244]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?
How big is the whine thread on your forums when you read this blog?
You walked right into it dungar -
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Renyn Stimpy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:02:00 -
[1245]
Came here for the tears. Thread delivered.
To all the Minmatar who LOLed at the Myrmidon/Eos nerf, KARMA'S A ***** AIN'T IT? |
SunGod RA
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:03:00 -
[1246]
=[
Ripping out my eyeballs and frying them in a pan as we speak, to make the pain more bareable.
I am somehow reminded of a fat turtle stuck in cement. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:03:00 -
[1247]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/07/2008 20:59:28
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw.
And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough?
Honestly, that is a terrible arguement.
Yes the wrecking hits are great. Allthough those barely scratching hits with missiles are annoying.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:03:00 -
[1248]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Yaay
Actually, we had some terrible pilots account sharing supercapitals that day
Fixed that bit for you.
Heh, good work editing, may the truth haunt me forever n ever.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1249]
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Both weapon systems have advantages and disadvantages. Explosion velocity mechanics mean that anyone flying fast enough to get a missile damage reduction will get that reduction from every incoming missile(trained skills and bonuses aside) from any ship on the entire grid no matter what direction it comes from.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Loka xDD
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1250]
Originally by: InSession Well I hope that these changes are thought about and debated thoroughly before being put through.
I feel that these changes may render corporations like my own that depend on guerrilla tactics more useless. It's hard enough for my corp mates and I to enter 0.0 from Empire (gate camps all over), then we go in and attack alliance station systems get a kill, stay awhile to maybe get a fight and based on what happens we either fight or leave. Now we'll be in slower ships and we'll get trapped and killed.
It's been stated already that people who nano their ships in the current state already are putting tons of risk. HACs + polys = expensive. To achieve the insane speeds people faction fit, or use snakes which are also extremely expensive.
This game is supposed to take team work, and well why can't the nano-whiners get a Rapier + Curse + support and scare people like me off like they should? Instead of using their ratting Ravens/Drakes w/o neuts to kill us. And people wonder why they get slaughtered so bad. Fit a damn neut and solo nano's will go away. Pay attention to local like you should and you can avoid just about anything, even nano's!
Signed..
Carebears noobs mission runners dont know how to fight against nano... they have big numbers, and ccp like them... Now the real pvpers are fu**** =/
Theres some BS fitting really good against nano, example is the Apoc 100Km Pulse Lazors.. or the Harbinger with his amazing tracking... but, those noobs dont wanna know how to fight nano, they just dont wanna get ganked in belts with theirs drakes/raven... and ccp think its nice T_T
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1251]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Yes the wrecking hits are great. Allthough those barely scratching hits with missiles are annoying.
Oh, you mean when the target is going faster than your missile's explosion velocity?
Those ones?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1252]
Originally by: Avon The fact that nano setups are unbalanced is kinda proved by the number of posts from people worried about losing their I-WIN button.
The more they post, the more clear it is that rebalancing is required.
This isn't the first major rebalance of something that was way out of line with game expectations, and I have no doubt that it won't be the last.
Adapt kiddies - do your guerilla stuff in ships designed for that role.
Amen brother!
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1253]
Originally by: Kyguard
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?
How big is the whine thread on your forums when you read this blog?
You walked right into it dungar
Apparently, he missed carrier nerf prop 1
It's the Economy Stupid |
Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1254]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
secondly, small gang pvp existed in eve long before boosters, rigs and snake sets. somehow it is wholly and utterly doomed now that speeds are to be lowered
oh, the irony.
You mean when standard space defence gangs for a 10-20 man roaming gang were 80+ people, 50% of the cluster had a capital alt, half of the spaceholding alliances in the game owned titans and even the most ******ed alliances had jump bridge networks capable of placing them almost anywhere within a 10 jump range of their home system?
oh, wait.
This Assumption of Risk |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:04:00 -
[1255]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Actually, no they don't. They simply realize that while a reduction in speed means they may actually be able to hit you from time to time, it doesn't automatically mean that they will be able to do any significant damage to you at the speeds you will STILL be able to travel at.
Try again please.
What about when those turret based nanoships slow down so they can actually put some damage on a target? Oh look, that 120km long trail of cruise suddenly catches up and hits WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT! ---
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:05:00 -
[1256]
Originally by: Kyguard
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Agmar Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?
/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours
How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?
How big is the whine thread on your forums when you read this blog?
You walked right into it dungar
About 90% of the thread was me asking how fast I was going to go in my various ships with the nerf since I'm not good at math ---
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Zoraya Rouge
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:05:00 -
[1257]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Zoraya Rouge Yes I'm an alt
why can't you post your opinions with your main?
I'm not posting with one of my mains, because I'm in an alliance, that don't have problems with nano-***gots at all. We just kill them or go nano-***gots ourselves from time to time.
However, while smacking you 100% nano-***gots, I thought that it would'nt be fair for the rest of my alliance, if I would've posted this with my main. I just don't want to break a war about this stoopid whinings from both sides.
And like I said, I don't see any change in EvE after those changes are made. EvE is pretty much boring since everyone started going Cap-Fleets and crap like that.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:05:00 -
[1258]
Originally by: Dianabolic Honestly, if you hadn't already noticed yet - CCP know they've got it balanced when they get a 40 page lol'naught going.
Keep it up guys!
ur rite. I mean like when they tried to nerf carriers and MS. I mean they were right! Paying customers giving enough of a shit to voice concern is no reason for concern!
"Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw.
And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough?
Honestly, that is a terrible arguement."
Great idea, let's compare cruise missiles with rails. OK. Now run the numbers with no ships capable of speed tanking cruise missiles. I wasn't making an argument, by the way. Simply stating a fact like 'people seem to forget this all the time' is not an arguement.
honestly.. have people here ever been forced to formulate and defend an opinion NOT on the internet? -----
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alterist
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:06:00 -
[1259]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Tempest Kane
In fairness atleast they used their titan (-:
Actually, we had some nano FCs from the north running the circus that day :-)
Yup they had remote control over the titan pilots finger that made him not fit any rigs and forced him to jump to a cyno 200km off the pos while there was 60? hostile caps in the system.....
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Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:13:00 -
[1260]
Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 25/07/2008 21:14:54
Originally by: Zhilan Alaioki Its so unfortunate that there have been tons of posts by people who havent even understood the changes and the few that really bring up good points are more or less drowned out. I agree with those that are saying this will break a lot of gameplay, because this will really nerf all speed tanked ships beyond hope and a lot of other ships along with it. Those few ships that really were a problem because they were near invicible should have been adressed, I agree, but this is just breaks all small gang hit and run gameplay.
You are assuming hit and run within the wrong context, hit and run is actually you attack a target that is either isolated or alone - kill it then leave the field of engagement before backup arrives. The changes in the mentioned dev blog will make it so that 'speed tanking fleet battles' can not happen where you just swoop in at obscene speeds into groups of hostiles - do damage to target x and run away at obscene speeds. It will actually require some tactical thinking now which is perhaps just a bit too much work for some people.
This finally takes speed back to the pre-kali level where it belongs and was best while at the same time retaining some of the unique benefits of modules added since. The interceptor will once again reign supreme in top end speeds and minmatar will true to form reign supreme at speed of general ship classes such as hacs but all within much more reasonable confines.
I for one wholly support this change and although there is some stiff opposition to these changes, it will greatly improve the dynamics of eve going forward on so many levels.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:16:00 -
[1261]
CCP can you just cut to the real problem and nerf stupidity?
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:16:00 -
[1262]
Originally by: alterist
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Tempest Kane
In fairness atleast they used their titan (-:
Actually, we had some nano FCs from the north running the circus that day :-)
Yup they had remote control over the titan pilots finger that made him not fit any rigs and forced him to jump to a cyno 200km off the pos while there was 60? hostile caps in the system.....
Funny if you knew who lit the cyno and where it was supposed to be at.
It's the Economy Stupid |
ori16
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:17:00 -
[1263]
i mean wow
the last speed nerf was ok i mean i supported it but this goes to far. Your killing the t2 cruiser for minmatar the vaga is a peace of shit without speed and with this comin nerf i better f'in see some mid slots opens for a tank.
and heavy missiles i mean seroues they do alot of damage when they hit and not all nano ships can keep the cap at 100% to run the mwd so the missiles do hit and when they do its hitting hard, don't forget when the mwd is also on it blows the sig Throw the roof, also helping the missiles.
nerf some more shit well your at it.
FFs all people need to do is fit a damp neut and a web and the thing dies. ori16 |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:17:00 -
[1264]
Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 21:20:26
Originally by: Bobby Atlas You are assuming hit and run within the wrong context, hit and run is actually you attack a target that is either isolated or alone - kill it then leave the field of engagement before backup arrives. The changes in the mentioned dev blog will make it so that 'speed tanking fleet battles' can not happen where you just swoop in at obscene speeds into groups of hostiles - do damage to target x and run away at obscene speeds. It will actually require some tactical thinking now which is perhaps just a bit too much work for some people...
The only reason this is possible with nanogangs is because people in their 100 man fleets of battleships make stupid mistakes like warping to wrecks, getting bubbled and then seperated from their fleets. You can't just nano into 100 battleships in a 20 man fleet of nanoships and expect to come out alive, that is not the point; preying on ******s who make stupid decisions in a fleet and making them pay for their mistakes (this is, essentially, hit and run - splitting an unmanageable fleet up into groups that you can work down with your limited damage).
As for your opinions about the tactics behind what you THINK is nano***gotry ("swoop in at obscene speeds into groups of hostiles - do damage to target x and run away at obscene speeds"), maybe you should rethink it a little because fighting gangs of such sizes is rather more complicated than you think
Even if this is not what you think of as hit and run, it's much more enjoyable than ****ing about hunting spacktarded instalogging ratters ---
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LuthienTinuviel
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:18:00 -
[1265]
Originally by: Dianabolic Honestly, if you hadn't already noticed yet - CCP know they've got it balanced when they get a 40 page lol'naught going.
Keep it up guys!
Like they knew what they were doing when they put out those completely reatarded ideas regarding carriers last year and pretty much had to shelve 90% of what they said the were going to do after a 40page(plus) lol'naught thread.... yeah CCP are gods they know all and never make any mistakes .
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Wannabehero
Caldari Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:19:00 -
[1266]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I imagine quite a few tweaks well be tested before this all hits Tranquility, so everyone calm down a bit.
As has happened in the past, people tend to whip themselves into a frenzy whenever their "flavor of the month" is threatened to be balanced. Interesting term, flavor of the month. By its very nature it suggests that it will not last forever... people tend to forget that.
Speed tanking, in reality, has not achieved such popularity because it is the only answer available to counter blobs. Come on, admit it. Speed tanking is so overwhelmingly popular that even the "blobs" are using it.
Its also true that a hefty proportion of the pilots that enjoy high kill/death ratios when speed tanking are no more skilled than any other average pilot... however they do have the money available to throw extremely expensive equipment out there. Read that again. Most speed tankers (the ones enjoying the benefits of Ludicrous Speed as it has been put) do well because of the amount of isk in their wallets, not due to any sudden overwhelming increase in their level of skill.
Truth hurts, I know. I'll join you in a group hug after the patch.
Skilled pilots will do just fine with these changes, pilots with more isk than skill will get angry and quit or move on to the next flavor of the month.
Either way, lets keep in civil. I've had my favorite play style curbed a bit from time to time to make the game more balanced (and truthfully, more enjoyable in the long run). I survived nicely, I'm fairly sure you will too.
Quoted for being a level-headed individual and a good post, not some turd screaming his unvalidated opinion as fact, making baseless assumptions from non-existant playtesting, or seeking to use non-relevant arguements to disprove others opinions. --
Don't harsh my mellow |
alterist
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:19:00 -
[1267]
Edited by: alterist on 25/07/2008 21:21:31
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
You are assuming hit and run within the wrong context, hit and run is actually you attack a target that is either isolated or alone - kill it then leave the field of engagement before backup arrives. The changes in the mentioned dev blog will make it so that 'speed tanking fleet battles' can not happen where you just swoop in at obscene speeds into groups of hostiles - do damage to target x and run away at obscene speeds. It will actually require some tactical thinking now which is perhaps just a bit too much work for some people.
If you think that nano flying against a blob is as easy as you claim you have no clue tbh. Nano flying against blobs is all about separating ships from the group by pulling them out of position or even risking a bump in some casses, done correctly it is a highly skilled and tactical form of pvp and eve will be the worse if it is removed.
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Drave McClay
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:20:00 -
[1268]
THIS IS BULLSHIT
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:20:00 -
[1269]
IÆm sorry if this has already been brought up, but I am desperately worried about recons. I know thereÆs going to be a speed nerf to one extent or another. However I would implore CCP to take a close DETTAILED look at the ramification of this nerf on recons. Recons in general have no other option but to speed tank, with the pilgrim being the notable exception. ECM boats being another exception (one could argue that ECM is more effective than speed tanking)
In general Recons donÆt have the slots or the cpu, grid or cap to build a effective tank. Killing the speed of this class of ships will #1 Go against the intended roll of the class and #2 It will annihilate the class in general.
From reading the blog it appears that they want to implement EVERY single suggestion ever raised to counter the speed issue in ONE SHOT. I can not adequately express how foolish I think this is. Yes I would agree in some cases speed is an issue. But to fly off the handle and pull out the WMD of nerf batÆs is stupid.
And tomorrow the NOOBS with be crying when we get back to the TANK and GANK style of game play. It NEVER ENDS. Please donÆt go off half ****ed just to appease the VOCAL MINORITY. Because tomorrow it will be some other ôgame breaking issueö.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:22:00 -
[1270]
Edited by: Yaay on 25/07/2008 21:24:40
Originally by: ori16
FFs all people need to do is fit a damp neut and a web and the thing dies.
yes, when he's stupid enough to come in range and not get out in the time it takes to lock/damp/neut/web. You ever tried to jump on a group of nano running away from you? Damn near impossible unless you're faster.... So alternative, dock up or battleball until they get bored and run away...
oh wait, most nano pilots like orbiting stations at 300 off until someone makes a mistake on warp in or moves just a tad too far out. God knows, I've watched some corps do it for hours at a time in 1 system... that's real fair to the defenders.
I remember being in BoB in a 2 hr long fight with PL where I think the total loss count was 3. 3 We battle balled and moved around as a disciplined group, they nano'd . Might as well have been a song and dance.
It's the Economy Stupid |
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:22:00 -
[1271]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Ranger 1 Actually, no they don't. They simply realize that while a reduction in speed means they may actually be able to hit you from time to time, it doesn't automatically mean that they will be able to do any significant damage to you at the speeds you will STILL be able to travel at.
Try again please.
What about when those turret based nanoships slow down so they can actually put some damage on a target? Oh look, that 120km long trail of cruise suddenly catches up and hits WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT!
Nano-Zealots don't slow down to hit with their guns, they change their angle of attack.
Nano-Vagabonds don't slow down and use their guns to kill their targets unless they have lured their prey into the clear and are not under fire. Normally they maintain speed and tackle while killing with their drones if they are under attack.
Nano-Rapiers/Huggins follow the same general rules as Nano-Vaga's but usually at greater range.
Nano-Cerbs obviously don't enter into it.
Did I miss anything?
You know this, you are just putting out a smoke screen to bolster your arguments.
Try again.
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Zoraya Rouge
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:22:00 -
[1272]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
About 90% of the thread was me asking how fast I was going to go in my various ships with the nerf since I'm not good at math
Vagabond with 3x OD II (new numbers and stacking), HG Snake Set (24,7%), Zor's Hyperlink, Rouge CY-2, Rouge MY-2, Fully skilled Claymore + Link (25,8%) = ~6500m/sec
Vaga with 3x OD II (new numbers and stacking, Zor's Hyperlink, Rouge CY-1, Rouge MY-1 = ~4200m/sec
Note: This is without Nanofibers or Polycarbons, as calculating mass is much more tcomplicated, and too late for me atm to do it.
So a cheap Vaga doing still 4200 or pimped Vaga 6500 without overheating after the changes? no problem for me tbh.
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Psyflame
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:25:00 -
[1273]
Proposed change is awesome! Caldari should always be able to hit everything without having to worry about range OR tracking. Also, this will promote more mindless blobbing, something of which EvE is obviously in dire need.
I'm glad I have been training for capitals instead of spending several months training a HAC that is now useless, but I'm sad my other character spent several months on blasters, now I have to train lasers in order to compete in pvp.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:34:00 -
[1274]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 25/07/2008 21:34:47
Originally by: Lexi Belle PL tears are...delicious.
This is why i never fit fotm. Changes don't effect me all that much, i dont fly nano's and ECM has no tracking. Does sound alot like a missile buff though.
Maybe a slight one, just keep in mind.
Cruise/heavy missile explosion velocity is 500 ms (I believe around 750ms with max skills). Light missile explosion velocity is 1750ms base.
Yeah, missile may catch them more often, but will still do fairly insignificant damage.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:36:00 -
[1275]
Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 21:36:11
Originally by: Bobby Atlas Yes cause clearly all that rage in your reply speaks volumes, why not try to instead address some of the fundamental points ccp has posted with valid and tangible rebuttals other than you enjoy nanoing at obscene speeds. Let us face it, ccp has a very valid point that right now the only ceiling on speed is more speed by the opposing force (unless you get a couple of very lucky webs on a target coming at you).
Why don't you go on eve search and have a look at the previous posts I've made in this thread (some I made on Korinn btw), most of which have been perfectly reasonable and addressing the original points made in the dev blog; read, THEN post Bobby, your forum-fu needs work ---
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Jenny' JoJo
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:38:00 -
[1276]
Originally by: Luke Lamarr
Originally by: Crumplecorn DO NOT WRECK BLASTER SHIPS
This needed emphasizing, so I quoted here.
How are you gonna stay close to your target with, say, a deimos (3 mids, MWD, scram, web?)
And note that this does not exclusively apply to the deimos. And I ain't sure I'd accept "fit MWD and AB" as an answer...
Blaster boat fitted with MWD/Scram or AB/Web or Scram/Web. You no longer need three items from Speed/tackle/slow. You only need any 2.
If Anything, blasterboats will have better fitting if they switch to AB, since their scram shuts down enemy MWD
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
SoD0EnGine
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:39:00 -
[1277]
as the guys says small gang and solo play will end . are u looking for a big gang fights ? Fix ur servers and the lagy 0.0 systems and ur petition systems them look for other issues FFS .
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Zorda
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:39:00 -
[1278]
Awesome changes, I'm really looking forward to it.
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Psyflame
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:39:00 -
[1279]
Since we are in the process of breaking game mechanics, can you bring back the 8x heatsink armageddon?
OH WAIT. Since you are giving missiles an insane buff can you bring back the dual mwd raven also?
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:40:00 -
[1280]
Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 25/07/2008 17:08:29
Originally by: Haradgrim Cerberus is now the best HAC, Raven now the best non-fleet PVP BS, c/d?
D. Cerb does **** damage and has a **** poor tank. Sac's better.
Touche, Though that depends on how viable a AB HAM cerb is --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:42:00 -
[1281]
Just make sure you keep that web nerf in and this all fine by me. A bit overboard but vOv, things get stale if you don't change things once in a while.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:42:00 -
[1282]
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
The changes in the mentioned dev blog will make it so that 'speed tanking fleet battles' can not happen where you just swoop in at obscene speeds into groups of hostiles - do damage to target x and run away at obscene speeds. It will actually require some tactical thinking now which is perhaps just a bit too much work for some people.
You mean to say that the 'groups of hostiles' didn't have ECM, NEUTS, WEBS or fast ships of their own? Don't say there isn't any tactics involved just because you don't know how to counter nanos.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:46:00 -
[1283]
This is IMHO a good and quite balanced change!
However complex it might look, in total I don't really see this as more than a change in how webbing works (incl. making AB's slightly more viable), a slight reduction in MWD speed, speed balancing between ship classes, and a reduction of stacking benefits for speed.
For the Blasterthron pilots, I really don't see that you really have anything to worry about. You might not be able to effectively combat frigate sized ship, but as a battleship, you're not supposed to! If you target has a T2 MWD (550% today, 500% if changed), scrambling him will first reduce his speed by about 85% due to the loss of MWD, and you then put a 60% web on him, it'll reduce his speed by a total of just below 94%. Another web will get him to 97.5% speedloss. If the module changes are all done too, he'll even be slower to start with.
Mainly, this is a reduction of ludicrous speed as Nozh says. Small fast-moving gangs are still effective today as they've been over the years, EXCEPT when they meet a nano-gang! They'll still be effective after this (even more so), but nano-gangs will have become vulnerable again.
Nano'ed gangs has one advantage over normal small gangs, that they can disengage even if they've made a bad call to engage when they shouldn't have. This is simply too great an advantage, and has to be removed.
Bad decisions has a penalty for other ship setups, but not so for nanos. A good pilot in a non-nano setup will probably die if he makes a bad call when engaging, while a mediocre nano-pilot will probably not die. That's the main difference, and that has to go.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:46:00 -
[1284]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Ranger 1
Nano-Zealots don't slow down to hit with their guns, they change their angle of attack.
Nano-Vagabonds don't slow down and use their guns to kill their targets unless they have lured their prey into the clear and are not under fire. Normally they maintain speed and tackle while killing with their drones if they are under attack.
Nano-Rapiers/Huggins follow the same general rules as Nano-Vaga's but usually at greater range.
Nano-Cerbs obviously don't enter into it.
Did I miss anything?
You know this, you are just putting out a smoke screen to bolster your arguments.
Change my angle of attack in a nanozealot? 34km optimal doesnt exactly give you that luxury without reducing your speed to a point where missiles will hit you, dear
I'd be laughing at your post right now if I didn't believe that the people responsible for balancing this stuff at CCP agreed with you
Aaaaaaaaaanyway I love being baited by trolls but the point here is :care: if speed gets nerfed, I just dont want to see CCP blanketing changes like this when they will never be able to predict all the consequences of these changes
To be frank, if you are putting pulses on your nano-Zealot... your doing it wrong. Unless of course you are merely acting as a screen for your nano-Cerbs along with your nano-Rapiers to keep tacklers and lone wolves off of them. In that case if you are in range of the main fleet and actually have to worry about incoming damage... again... your doing it wrong.
We also seem to be avoiding talking about the Vagabond suddenly, interesting.
Again, you know exactly what I'm saying GO. I'm trying to be gentle, but I think your perception is colored by that Zealot loss to a Crow and a Raven a few days ago.
Just relax, you'll still be just as effective as you are now...
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TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:47:00 -
[1285]
So is there a Pilgrim/Arazu support group? Hi my name is Adj and I'm a Rapier pilot. ----------------
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:50:00 -
[1286]
It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.
If you can afford to put expensive mods on a ship to make it go faster now, you'll be able to do it afterwards, and you will still be faster than less expensively equipped ships (post-patch)
the truth hurts eh I'll probably be burned alive by my PL brosef's later for this but it is the sad truth that abusive of nano-fleets like this by alliances like mine is what has caused this change.
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GoldSnake
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:52:00 -
[1287]
Originally by: Gneeznow It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.
If you can afford to put expensive mods on a ship to make it go faster now, you'll be able to do it afterwards, and you will still be faster than less expensively equipped ships (post-patch)
the truth hurts eh I'll probably be burned alive by my PL brosef's later for this but it is the sad truth that abusive of nano-fleets like this by alliances like mine is what has caused this change.
Probaly true tbh, we'll adapt and ****face still so *shrug*
Wow I'm +1'ing to Gneez =[
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:52:00 -
[1288]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 25/07/2008 22:00:01 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 25/07/2008 21:53:17 Clever sneaky well-skilled Minmatar pilots will adapt depending on the reality deployed on TQ.
And the same clever well-skilled Minmatar pilots with Recon V/HAC IV/V will be headrolling F1-F5 and kesplatting you from hard-tanked 72km+ HAM-burning Sacriledges and other assorted surprises.
Because we will still beat the blob. Because we are better than you.
What on earth will you whine about and nerf next? HAMS?
p.s. Note to CCP on how to eat a whale: One bite at a time as opposed to trying to shove the entire unappetizing pile of blubber down your throat in one fell swoop.
p.p.s. Note to CCP regarding "Gilbert Gottfried misdirection": Well played for distracting players from the mess that is lag/sov/blobs/lag/blobs/capshipsonline/blob/lag.
p.p.s. Will all the above fit in my ever-so-hoped-for new and improved bio space? Because thats the important thing right there.
**EDIT**I don't use speed implants.....does that make me wierd ?
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:53:00 -
[1289]
Originally by: Gneeznow It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.
If you can afford to put expensive mods on a ship to make it go faster now, you'll be able to do it afterwards, and you will still be faster than less expensively equipped ships (post-patch)
the truth hurts eh I'll probably be burned alive by my PL brosef's later for this but it is the sad truth that abusive of nano-fleets like this by alliances like mine is what has caused this change.
PL 30 man drake gangs with 10 falcons.
**** yeah.
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BOldMan
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:54:00 -
[1290]
Arazu a new born.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:55:00 -
[1291]
Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 21:57:10
Originally by: Ranger 1
To be frank, if you are putting pulses on your nano-Zealot... your doing it wrong. Unless of course you are merely acting as a screen for your nano-Cerbs along with your nano-Rapiers to keep tacklers and lone wolves off of them. In that case if you are in range of the main fleet and actually have to worry about incoming damage... again... your doing it wrong.
We also seem to be avoiding talking about the Vagabond suddenly, interesting.
Again, you know exactly what I'm saying GO. I'm trying to be gentle, but I think your perception is colored by that Zealot loss to a Crow and a Raven a few days ago.
Just relax, you'll still be just as effective as you are now...
Oh hey look you brought kills and losses into it, I can't say I'm surprised
While we're being all grown up why don't you go blob a gate in a cynojammed system with 40 carriers, 10 motherships and 5 titans, and then whinge because you still can't catch nanogangs
Ok now seriously, this missiles v. turrets thing has been done for years, they both have their benefits and downsides when dealing with speed, I can't be bothered arguing about something that really doesn't relate that much to the original issue and you seem to be missing the fact that I dont CARE if speed is nerfed, I just don't like the way CCP uses heavy handed blanket nerfs to achieve something they could do with a couple of better thought out changes.
They said it themselves; they spent 5 hours between 4 of them working on an issue which has been in the game for the best part of THREE YEARS.
Oh also check the zealot loss prior to the one I lost to hungarian farmers, hey look beams!
Originally by: Gneeznow It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.
I'm trying not to nerdrage gneez, and I have nothing against any of the changes in particular, I just think that the same result could be achieved via a smaller number of changes which are actually aimed at the specific problems identified rather than the whole idea of speed in general ---
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Beatus Footus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:56:00 -
[1292]
So to think of the "Star Wars" parody, we will no longer be able to attain "Ludicrous Speed", however we will still be able to reach "Absurd Speed".
This is neither a whine nor is it an "about time" post. Rather just a thought that I am sure is going to meet with ridicule and jokes from both sides, but how about a bit of a compromise.
I don't know any "nano-tanker" who has not fitted for the fastest fit possible just to get from point A to point B or maybe just for kicks "buzz the belts". With that in mind, what if "ludicrous speed" were only attainable if absolutely NO offensive modules were fitted. In other words no launchers or guns or lasers, also no Jammers, Scramblers, Webifiers, Disrupters....etc? The goal here is purely defense and a chance to get away if you are a "non-combatant".
As I stated earlier...this is just a thought I had so as to add an extra dimension to the proposed changes.
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Xeliya
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:56:00 -
[1293]
If you are going to nerf snakes, nerf slave and crystals and allow crystals to be used on caps.
IMO a better speed nerf is making it if you go x amount faster then the ships base speed you take damage. So if the ships base is 100m/s say we put in a 10x multiplier, over 1k/s you take damage and the more you go over the more damage you take.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:56:00 -
[1294]
Originally by: GoldSnake
Originally by: Gneeznow It is a shame that most of this thread is PL going mad because of this when they have not given it a chance, they just see that they are not gonna be able to pwnpwnpwn with nano-zealots and snaked up Ishtar's and curses and now are throwing the rattle out of the pram, most of the PL in this thread fly almost nothing but speed ships with snakes despite them saying otherwise.
If you can afford to put expensive mods on a ship to make it go faster now, you'll be able to do it afterwards, and you will still be faster than less expensively equipped ships (post-patch)
the truth hurts eh I'll probably be burned alive by my PL brosef's later for this but it is the sad truth that abusive of nano-fleets like this by alliances like mine is what has caused this change.
Probaly true tbh, we'll adapt and ****face still so *shrug*
Wow I'm +1'ing to Gneez =[
We know who has a head full of snakes in this thread already, but major points for honesty gentlemen.
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Zabijucha
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:57:00 -
[1295]
Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless. Tkanks CCP, I got only one mini recon char skilled,now all ships I like and I can use are broken. Simple you do not respect people who invest time and money in your game. Better go under whine this all pvp crips. Because they are so stupid that they do not know how to counter nano.
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Kethry Avenger
VENOM72 Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 -
[1296]
I wish there was an I support button for these threads. Or a poll.
I think this could be good for us Amarians, now just switch the turret disrupter and webber bonuses on the recons and Eve would make sense.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 -
[1297]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 25/07/2008 22:00:30
Originally by: techzer0
Like a few other people have said, one step at a time CCP! Mass changes like this is only asking to break something, change one... wait... change another. Multiple annoying "hotfix" downtimes to "fix" the last "fix" 0are a bit ******ed and we've been through it with almost every large patch that changes a lot of stuff at once.
But they are changing one thing at a time: Speed. You can't just change speed on one ship while leaving it the same on all others. Speed as a whole has to be modified across the board in ways that will fix the overall problem. You can't the forest for the trees here.
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Ethyn
Caldari Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 -
[1298]
I'll keep my comments short and sweet. (relatively)
I fly ceptors. It's an addiction really. I fly expensive fast ceptors. No matter how fast I am a huggin or rapier can ruin my day quite nicely. (that or a crash) I do agree that ships the size of small planets should not be allowed to go as fast as a ceptor.
But if you slow down ceptors you make them nothing more than shooting practice. How am I suppose to tackle if I can't live long enough to do so?
That being said I see that ceptors appear to be getting hit the least by the nerf bat.
What I really don't want though, is my ceptor to be slowed down so that it can be hit by missiles. A ship with 10 times as much equipment for propulsion should be able to outspeed a stinking missile.
My suggestion would be to increase the amount of inertia created by using a MWD. This would keep us from being able to orbit at high speeds, but still allow us to break off and get away.
GO Fast or Die!
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Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 -
[1299]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe PL 30 man drake gangs with 10 falcons. **** yeah.
No, just 30 man carrier gangs on the gates...killing everything with neuts...one blast of neut+MWD reactivation delay...everything pops...
Plus we get CCP provisioned fighter lag...good times!!!!
Only need two ships now, ratting raven and carrier...truly caps online exactly what CCP wanted...
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Sunshine Katy
Patricia Lane Partners
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:01:00 -
[1300]
Originally by: Zabijucha Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless.
Just think of the Rapier/Huginn like a bit fat expensive Bellicose. Yeah that's it!
Seriously CCP, so you're going to change the target painter bonus on these ships to a web strength bonus to maintain their role, right? Right? |
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slip66
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:02:00 -
[1301]
About time.
they will adapt, just like everyone did when they changed stacking MWDs, then oversized modules on ships, nano/low slot stacking.
thumbs up!
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:03:00 -
[1302]
Originally by: Ethyn I'll keep my comments short and sweet. (relatively)
I fly ceptors. It's an addiction really. I fly expensive fast ceptors. No matter how fast I am a huggin or rapier can ruin my day quite nicely. (that or a crash) I do agree that ships the size of small planets should not be allowed to go as fast as a ceptor.
But if you slow down ceptors you make them nothing more than shooting practice. How am I suppose to tackle if I can't live long enough to do so?
That being said I see that ceptors appear to be getting hit the least by the nerf bat.
What I really don't want though, is my ceptor to be slowed down so that it can be hit by missiles. A ship with 10 times as much equipment for propulsion should be able to outspeed a stinking missile.
My suggestion would be to increase the amount of inertia created by using a MWD. This would keep us from being able to orbit at high speeds, but still allow us to break off and get away.
This change doesn't affect you except increases your odds of survival if a Huggin or Rapier lock on to you, but decrease it if one of the Gallente recons do. Any extra speed beyond 10 km/s is meaningless because at that point a light Missile Cerberus with velocity explosion rigs can't effectively hurt you are more.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:04:00 -
[1303]
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 25/07/2008 21:57:10
Originally by: Ranger 1
To be frank, if you are putting pulses on your nano-Zealot... your doing it wrong. Unless of course you are merely acting as a screen for your nano-Cerbs along with your nano-Rapiers to keep tacklers and lone wolves off of them. In that case if you are in range of the main fleet and actually have to worry about incoming damage... again... your doing it wrong.
We also seem to be avoiding talking about the Vagabond suddenly, interesting.
Again, you know exactly what I'm saying GO. I'm trying to be gentle, but I think your perception is colored by that Zealot loss to a Crow and a Raven a few days ago.
Just relax, you'll still be just as effective as you are now...
Oh hey look you brought kills and losses into it, I can't say I'm surprised
While we're being all grown up why don't you go blob a gate in a cynojammed system with 40 carriers, 10 motherships and 5 titans, and then whinge because you still can't catch nanogangs
Ok now seriously, this missiles v. turrets thing has been done for years, they both have their benefits and downsides when dealing with speed, I can't be bothered arguing about something that really doesn't relate that much to the original issue and you seem to be missing the fact that I dont CARE if speed is nerfed, I just don't like the way CCP uses heavy handed blanket nerfs to achieve something they could do with a couple of better thought out changes.
They said it themselves; they spent 5 hours between 4 of them working on an issue which has been in the game for the best part of THREE YEARS.
Oh also check the zealot loss prior to the one I lost to hungarian farmers, hey look beams!
I was just giving you a poke in the arm GO, no harm intended.
And I quite agree that these swooping changes are going to have to looked at VERY carefully before implementation... but I think they have promise. We'll have to see.
But you are busted on the Zealot argument though... I "knew" you understood exactly what I was saying.
/Ranger 1 goes away chuckling and muttering under his breath about Pandemic pilots that pretend not to know how to fly a nano-zealot properly...
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abzzo
S-44
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:05:00 -
[1304]
Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.
Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO
A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:06:00 -
[1305]
Originally by: abzzo Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.
Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO
A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...
You do realize that just because a missile hits does not mean it is doing full damage?
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Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:07:00 -
[1306]
These changes seem over the top. The polycarb changes and the stacking penalties on nano modules sure but the others....meh. I'll wait and see how these changes turn out on sisi before going all crazy though.
Reduction in ludicrous speeds is all fine and well but give us a way to mess with missiles in the same way that tracking disruptors can be used to mess up the optimal range/falloff or tracking off turrets. You could even just change td's to work on missiles with the tracking script working to reduce missile precision and the optimal range to some pseudo bs reducing their speed or whatever works. Because let's face it, if nothing is done every time you spot a drake while flying a speed tanked ship you'll a) have to have a falcon/kitsune with you b) bugger the hell out.
As someone that flies quite alot solo (and I mean solo, no falcon alt, no scouting alt, no spy in the intel channels) this makes is even harder than it currently is (and it aint easy at the moment) because basicly i'm reduced to even less targets I've got the chance of taking out before the blob arrives, and no, the answear is not bring your friends. I'm sure that I'm not the only player in this game that enjoys the thrill of hunting solo. Is it just me or shouldn't player skills count for something instead of mindlessly piling onto a target?
Also this seems like a very messed up way to buff the arazu/lachesis back to being of real use instead of just giving them back their pre nerf damp powers.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:07:00 -
[1307]
Originally by: Ranger 1
/Ranger 1 goes away chuckling and muttering under his breath about Pandemic pilots that pretend not to know how to fly a nano-zealot properly...
/emote looks at the killmail being referred to, sees a MWD as the only speed mod on the ship... Still trying to figure out how it's called a nano zealot.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:08:00 -
[1308]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
QFT.
And now what's going to happen to my Vindicator's MWD cap bonus? It'll be useless now when I can just fit an AB. Good job promoting the blob CCP! You should look at issues like server stability, or hell, overview bugs before you even attempt to fix speed tanking. Seriously, speed isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound. If the people who complain about getting popped by nanos actually used "strategy and tactics" like you said, they would have a Rapier or neuts in their gang setups.
What's the point in spending billions of isk on mods/implants when you're at the same playing field as the guy who doesn't have them? What's the point to making isk at all then if you don't utilize it to have an advantage over another player?
I guess we'll be seeing a lot more spidertanking BSes to combat groups of a larger size. Or are you going to nerf that as well?
Epic fail CCP. Make small tweaks first before you plan on changing things that can have unforseen consequences to the combat system. Besides, if you didn't intend speed to get so "ludicrous" why did you give us the option? You're trying to cover up your screw up with another screw up.
This blog needed more thought and foresight before it was released to the public.
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abzzo
S-44
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:08:00 -
[1309]
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: abzzo Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.
Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO
A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...
You do realize that just because a missile hits does not mean it is doing full damage?
Yes, I didnt say it was hiting whit full damage but it still hits dont they?
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:10:00 -
[1310]
Originally by: Wesley Baird
Originally by: Viper ****zIe PL 30 man drake gangs with 10 falcons. **** yeah.
No, just 30 man carrier gangs on the gates...killing everything with neuts...one blast of neut+MWD reactivation delay...everything pops...
Plus we get CCP provisioned fighter lag...good times!!!!
Only need two ships now, ratting raven and carrier...truly caps online exactly what CCP wanted...
You should probably ask yourself two questions.....
1. Why are your scouts so bad they didn't warn you about the carrier blob so you could go around it? 2. How long does it take for carriers to lock small targets, and how many times can you warp out in that time?
Unfortunately, you'll have to THINK now when playing EVE, and you'll have to face a risk similar to everyone else who're not nano'ed
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:10:00 -
[1311]
Originally by: Ranger 1 But you are busted on the Zealot argument though... I "knew" you understood exactly what I was saying.
I've been tricked D:
---
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:10:00 -
[1312]
Originally by: Zabijucha Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless. Tkanks CCP, I got only one mini recon char skilled,now all ships I like and I can use are broken. Simple you do not respect people who invest time and money in your game. Better go under whine this all pvp crips. Because they are so stupid that they do not know how to counter nano.
You're talking crap, man, those will be usefull as long as there is need in webbing. They will no longer be a "must have" though, just "nice to have"
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:11:00 -
[1313]
Originally by: Kerfira 1. Why are your scouts so bad they didn't warn you about the carrier blob so you could go around it? 2. How long does it take for carriers to lock small targets, and how many times can you warp out in that time?
Unfortunately, you'll have to THINK now when playing EVE, and you'll have to face a risk similar to everyone else who're not nano'ed
Oh I'm sorry, we should just avoid all things having to do with PVP unless we can find a lone ratter in a belt after traveling for an hour...
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:11:00 -
[1314]
Originally by: Mr Mozzie Edited by: Mr Mozzie on 25/07/2008 13:15:12 This is [not] very fair for those people who have spent billions on snake sets, officer speed mods etc. The value of their investment will be destroyed overnight.
I'm not sure how you could say that this is the case. The changes made were relative, not absolute. From the blog:
"...the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16% and the gang bonuses down to 25.8% but with an added agility bonus. So yes, there is a speed nerf underway, but exclusive speed bonus items still retain their relative value, the snake set for instance still being the fastest single speed bonus item that money can buy."
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Maria Chen
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:12:00 -
[1315]
Well just f'in great. I saved up and sold for months to get a recon pilot so I could fly a rapier for my corp. I've just spent the last two months hardening up my new character ( including speed and recon 5 ) and now your reducing the max speed of my rapier and reducing the effectiveness of its core role.
We're customers complaining about this issue or was it something you wanted to change? Since we're the ones paying to play I think you should remember who's opinion really matters.
Ludicrous Speed GO
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EveJoker
Minmatar Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:12:00 -
[1316]
why not try fixing the bug/issue with the physics engine first, or could this possibly lead to other fixes you dont want like ummm desync, node crashes etc?
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar HotRock Mining PLC
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:13:00 -
[1317]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 25/07/2008 22:14:00 How will in class balance be done? I'm referring to Minmatar vs. Amarr for example. Will Minmatar battleships be noticeable more nimble/faster then other battleships or like now, where the difference is minute? -- stuff -- |
abzzo
S-44
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:14:00 -
[1318]
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
QFT.
And now what's going to happen to my Vindicator's MWD cap bonus? It'll be useless now when I can just fit an AB. Good job promoting the blob CCP! You should look at issues like server stability, or hell, overview bugs before you even attempt to fix speed tanking. Seriously, speed isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound. If the people who complain about getting popped by nanos actually used "strategy and tactics" like you said, they would have a Rapier or neuts in their gang setups.
What's the point in spending billions of isk on mods/implants when you're at the same playing field as the guy who doesn't have them? What's the point to making isk at all then if you don't utilize it to have an advantage over another player?
I guess we'll be seeing a lot more spidertanking BSes to combat groups of a larger size. Or are you going to nerf that as well?
Epic fail CCP. Make small tweaks first before you plan on changing things that can have unforseen consequences to the combat system. Besides, if you didn't intend speed to get so "ludicrous" why did you give us the option? You're trying to cover up your screw up with another screw up.
This blog needed more thought and foresight before it was released to the public.
The funny thing about this is the servers cant handle 90 ppl in the same solar system. All the blobs are just gona grow. Solo PVP is dead to eve. To go deep in to enemy space is dead. Now it's going to be pointless to play if your not in bob or mining veldspar in high sec.
I agree fix the server problems and lagg (ops currently to all at CCP that dosent excist in eve) but guess what lagg do excist and now whit biger blobs your going to kill your game.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:14:00 -
[1319]
Originally by: abzzo Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.
Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO
A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...
Too late, that nerf was already done - sometime ago you could torp inty for full damage, instapoping it. Then explosion radius and explosion velocity appeared, then torpedo "boost" nerf. So now it's your turn to be hit by nerf stick
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:14:00 -
[1320]
Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Reduction in ludicrous speeds is all fine and well but give us a way to mess with missiles in the same way that tracking disruptors can be used to mess up the optimal range/falloff or tracking off turrets.
There is a missile you can use. They're called defenders! Of.c. they're pretty useless, but then again so are tracking disruptors these days....
Also, even if you'll be slower after this balancing, missiles might hit you, but they'll still not do a lot of damage if you're above 2k....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:15:00 -
[1321]
Originally by: abzzo
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: abzzo Why nerf everything. Whit the nos neut nerf you almost killed the curse. Great now you have succeed.
Why dont nerf all missiles and shit. Dosent mather how small a ship is they still hit. They hit everything. If something has to be nerfed its everything about missiles. A mega is shoting at a inty, doses it hit? NO
A raven shots at an inty, does it hit? Hell yea...
You do realize that just because a missile hits does not mean it is doing full damage?
Yes, I didnt say it was hiting whit full damage but it still hits dont they?
You are over-estimating the actual nerf to speed that this change causes to the average player. Severely.
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Lucas Avignon
Avignon Associates Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 -
[1322]
This is a joke, blasters are getting nerfed more, even though they have like the worst range in the game, they can't hit anything that moves even at relatively slow speed but hey lets boost missiles even more by nerfing speed into the ground
Stacking nerf to speed mods = good
Other poorly thought out stuff = bad
Originally by: CCP Prism X Yeah, and while we're at it we can create a controlled environment around account hacking and credit card fraud and all the other EULA breaches..
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 -
[1323]
Originally by: J Valkor You are over-estimating the actual nerf to speed that this change causes to the average player. Severely.
And you truely have no clue about how far it will go, none of us will until monday.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 -
[1324]
Originally by: EveJoker why not try fixing the bug/issue with the physics engine first, or could this possibly lead to other fixes you dont want like ummm desync, node crashes etc?
this ^^
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Dinamita Tona
Minmatar Privateers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:17:00 -
[1325]
to solve any new nerf or boost problem, i sugest ccp to make 1 ship aviable for each race caldari - raven amar - harbinger gallente - thorax minmatar - rifter
of course it will be not allowed to attack any raven with more than 2 ships at same time, but rifters and thoraxes shall be blobed i think then most people will be satisfied
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:17:00 -
[1326]
Ok, my turn for a wall of text.
First, I think you have a very wrong idea as to the viability of nano combat the way the game is right now. As things are right now, there is a very wide variety of available counters to nanoships:
1. Mimmitar recons. I hate to mention this simply because its the solution that everyone immediately thinks of, but it has to make the list so might as well get it out of the way.
2. Energy neutralizers. No Cap, no MWD.
3. Remote tanking and logistics. Nanoships average around MAYBE 400 DPS on average, not exactly your hardest hitting ships. A fair deal of that damage also comes from drones as well, making it possible to clear out a fair section of the incoming fire without even shooting at the nanoships themselves.
4. Traditional anti-support vessels. Undergunning vessels (namely Assault Missile launchers, the ones with light missiles - though frigate-class weapons do work) and emphasizing your tank can make you a formidable opponent against paper-thin nanoships. Additionally, with all turret weapons, generally if they can hit you, then they are moving slow enough that you can hit them if you are using the same weapons. Additionally, tracking becomes far less of a factor when at longer ranges, so after driving hostile nanoships out beyond a certain range, they become vulnerable to another array of weapons.
5. Interceptors. Yes, they don't take much fire, but its way easier and FAR less expensive to get one up to speeds capable of running down far more expensive nanocruisers, particularly now with heat in the picture.
6. Electronic warfare. Heavy Assault Cruisers have notoriously low sensor strength, and with decent skills and racials, failing jams is something that doesn't much happen. Jamming the recons is more tough, but only the Huginn, Curse, and Rapier really can get to any sort of decent speed, and they all rely largely on their drones as a source of damage, making their ability to do damage otherwise vulnerable to attack. Tracking disruptors can similarly shut down any turret vessels, nano or otherwise (particularly since nanoships often are on the very edge of their ability to track anyhow), and frankly damps just need a boost to become useful again.
Lets do examples of this by race as well, to demonstrate that all races can take advantage of the various counter methods using existing specializations in their ships:
ALL RACES: Battleship-grade Nosferatus Remote Logistics (remember, up to ~70km on logistics ships) Interceptors Ranged DPS to support friendly tackle
Caldari: Assault-fitted missile vessels (Namely the hated drake) ECM ships 2x Free utility highslots for neuts or remote reps on the raven
Matari: 2x Utility highs on the tempest for neuts and remote reps Huginn/Rapier
Amarr: Tracking Disruption Pulse Lasers (good range and tracking) Utility high on the geddon for neuts or remote tanking
Gallente: Utility high on Megathron and multiple good neut and remote rep fits on the Dominix They should have damps, but those got nerfed, un-nerf kthx. Many vessels with spare dronebay, can use Light drones on most everything(Warrior II can catch any nanoship that is at a close enough range to do damage)
Ultimately though, we've heard constant complaining about nanos. So, where there is smoke, there is fire, right?
No, not necessarily. Nanos are really only a perceived combat advantage. Really, what they are is a mobility advantage. They appear as an unfair combat advantage for a few reasons:
1. They are hard to catch. Often, even if you 'defeat' them they run off and take very few losses. So, people want to be able to murder an entire gang when they 'win' a fight.
Ultimately, nanoing away from a fight you can't win is not very different from scouting a gang and jumping someplace else because you can't fight it. Either way, no kills.
2. Nanos can easily tear apart gangs larger than them.
[CONTINUED]
_____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:18:00 -
[1327]
This is really a misconception. What nanoing allows gangs to do is simply make less coordinated enemies pay for their mistakes, and often before the enemy can react. Most of the kills nanogangs get in serious fights - are from pilots who put themselves in a vulnerable position. In a conclusive fight, the nano gang will be able to take out enough that what remains is small enough to slowly tear apart.
On the flipside, a well-organized gang can easily drive off a nano group without taking any losses. I've seen fights where BRUCE calmly drove off a combined PL/CI nanogang with a similarly sized force of ships - a couple battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, and other miscellaneous vessels - containing minimal electronics warfare support - simply because they were well coordinated and did not leave the nano group any openings to exploit.
I would argue that if speed was truly overpowered, then you would not have many common circumstances where a well-organized non-nano gang capabably forces off a nanoed gang through coordination and skill and often very little in terms of organized or designed counters.
In fact, its worth noting that a lot of kills many nano-gangs score are simply off of undefended vessels caught with their pants down. A non-nano gang would get the same kills, the difference being that the nano gang moves fast enough to escape before the blob can close the door out.
3. Well, how about that? Is it fair that its so hard to stop a nano gang from moving about? After all, we spend billions of ISK claiming space and building our empire, shouldn't our space be easy to defend and keep hostiles out of?
Understand its hard to avoid the angry PVPer response to this, and I'd give it under most circumstances but there is something of a valid argument to this. Frankly, this question really raises 2 points.
The first is, should their be methods by which a defending power can delay roaming barbarians from pillaging their space. The answer is yes, and that they exist. Sometimes, bad things will just happen due to being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but in most cases there are things in place that allow defenders the ability to hole up and prepare their defense without first taking losses. It is my opinion that if you are unwilling to do one of the following before getting killed, you deserve to die:
a. Warp to one of those POS you spend billions on, b. Dock at that outpost you spend more billions on, c. Be fast enough to run away OR d. Fit a cloak to your vulnerable ship. If danger enters local, safe up and cloak if the above are not options.
Anyhow, it is your space, so onto the second point. Should a defender be able to passively restrict access to space simply because they throw POS up and throw billions at it? My opinion is no. They can protect themselves from harm passively, but it is my opinion that to deny others access, you have to actively drive them out. There are in fact tools that assist this. Jump bridges are the unsung heroes of territorial defense, allowing even slow gangs, if operating on a well-organized network, to keep up with or even get ahead of nanoed groups.
With all of the resources available as counters described above and the cost and hitpoint vulnerability of nanoships added on, I simply ask, is speed really that overpowered?
I'd suggest a few things to bring things slightly more in line. Add diminishing returns for speed by ship class. Something like 5k/sec for cruisers, 4 for battleships, 6.5 for frigates, 8 for interceptors, 500m/s for capitals and supercaps .(Nanoed supercaps are an abomination)
This would make it not too difficult to go fast enough to dodge a lot of fire, and investing in a little extra speed will still give you an edge against similar-class vessels, yet smaller class vessels would retain something of a speed advantage over larger ones.
Additionally, allow larger launchers to fire smaller-sized missiles to balance missile ships in PVP. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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evilphoenix
3vil Industries Efferus Vehemens Inasnum Latrocinium
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:22:00 -
[1328]
So you desire gorilla warfare to exist after the nerf? How do you propose I get past the 50 man gatecamp?
You don't want me to leave a fight once I start it? So what you really mean is that when I get blobed while doing your gorilla warfare you want me to die.
What you really mean is you don't want people getting bumped off a station or gate forced to pvp?
Instead of nerfing why not create mods that counter? Web bubbles? Rigs that give a web/warp scram/neut bonus?
Do you have any numbers for the number of players who actually fly a ludicrous nano ship?
I like the idea of the warp scram, and can live with the web change. Why not test and implement those before such a massive change? --------
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Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:22:00 -
[1329]
Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 25/07/2008 22:25:29
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Reduction in ludicrous speeds is all fine and well but give us a way to mess with missiles in the same way that tracking disruptors can be used to mess up the optimal range/falloff or tracking off turrets.
There is a missile you can use. They're called defenders! Of.c. they're pretty useless, but then again so are tracking disruptors these days....
Also, even if you'll be slower after this balancing, missiles might hit you, but they'll still not do a lot of damage if you're above 2k....
Ok, now I'm going to call you out on this, do you actually pvp and use those things? A) not every ship has missile launcher hardpoints nor is there much of an incentive to fit one even if there is b) defenders just don't work and even if they did they are not going to shoot down 7 missiles from a drake, 5 missiles from a cerb or whatever. As for td's being useless, nah, perhaps less useful than ecm but I can assure that optimal range disruption makes your average vaga cry along with several other very good uses for it.
I'm willing to give up my speed if ccp implement real way of doing guerilla warfare in a different way. I.e. smaller actually workable blackops or anything that makes it possible for a small, well trained and dedicated force to be able to harass a larger, disorganized and blobbing force.
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thoraxius demioses
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:23:00 -
[1330]
Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 25/07/2008 22:23:38
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
Originally by: Luke Lamarr
Originally by: Crumplecorn DO NOT WRECK BLASTER SHIPS
This needed emphasizing, so I quoted here.
How are you gonna stay close to your target with, say, a deimos (3 mids, MWD, scram, web?)
And note that this does not exclusively apply to the deimos. And I ain't sure I'd accept "fit MWD and AB" as an answer...
Blaster boat fitted with MWD/Scram or AB/Web or Scram/Web. You no longer need three items from Speed/tackle/slow. You only need any 2.
If Anything, blasterboats will have better fitting if they switch to AB, since their scram shuts down enemy MWD
afterburner instead of mwd.. hrmmm.. oh wait the target is 20km away and mwdfng around you, how are youever gonna get that into your scram range???
i'm a Deimos pilot .i dont mind te speed nerfing. i love te scram thing... you do stil need a web just to slow it down and make your guns hit harder... but afterburner is a no go. in this case. the only thing that worries me is some one getting out of my web range....
however getting close to somewhat longer range ships... that wil be a perilous journey....
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R0ot
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:26:00 -
[1331]
That was actually an interesting read, as expected you have a lot of people crying already, but they obviously missed the whole huge yellow writing and they might try some intellectual input into the subject rather than screaming bloody murder. I can't say I agree with all of what was in the Dev Blog but look forward to the changes regardless, might actually have a use for the AF's after this.
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Zabijucha
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:26:00 -
[1332]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Zabijucha Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless. Tkanks CCP, I got only one mini recon char skilled,now all ships I like and I can use are broken. Simple you do not respect people who invest time and money in your game. Better go under whine this all pvp crips. Because they are so stupid that they do not know how to counter nano.
You're talking crap, man, those will be usefull as long as there is need in webbing. They will no longer be a "must have" though, just "nice to have"
Compare after patch rapier/huggin/hyena with falcon/rook/kitsune and arazu/lachesis/keres and pilgrim/curse/sentinel. Who talking crap? Now Minmatar EW ships are ludicrous gimped. FC wont say "nice to have a Rapier" in gang, but "take better ship".
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 -
[1333]
Page 52 Snipah
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Shamrann
Minmatar Marque and Reprisal
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 -
[1334]
Originally by: Tzrailasa This is IMHO a good and quite balanced change!
However complex it might look, in total I don't really see this as more than a change in how webbing works (incl. making AB's slightly more viable), a slight reduction in MWD speed, speed balancing between ship classes, and a reduction of stacking benefits for speed.
For the Blasterthron pilots, I really don't see that you really have anything to worry about. You might not be able to effectively combat frigate sized ship, but as a battleship, you're not supposed to! If you target has a T2 MWD (550% today, 500% if changed), scrambling him will first reduce his speed by about 85% due to the loss of MWD, and you then put a 60% web on him, it'll reduce his speed by a total of just below 94%. Another web will get him to 97.5% speedloss. If the module changes are all done too, he'll even be slower to start with.
Mainly, this is a reduction of ludicrous speed as Nozh says. Small fast-moving gangs are still effective today as they've been over the years, EXCEPT when they meet a nano-gang! They'll still be effective after this (even more so), but nano-gangs will have become vulnerable again.
Nano'ed gangs has one advantage over normal small gangs, that they can disengage even if they've made a bad call to engage when they shouldn't have. This is simply too great an advantage, and has to be removed.
Bad decisions has a penalty for other ship setups, but not so for nanos. A good pilot in a non-nano setup will probably die if he makes a bad call when engaging, while a mediocre nano-pilot will probably not die. That's the main difference, and that has to go.
I don't like BOB... that is until now Tzrailasa, with this one post changed my hole view on BOB, I hate that I'm forced to nano my ships, since in my opinion it's akin to putting stabs on you ship. And we all remember back when most PVP setups included stabs simply because then you didn't have to commit to the fight and risk loosing your ship.
Again thanx Tzrail. for making a valid post in this forest of whiners.
Shamrann (MAin) OUT...
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 -
[1335]
"That being said, this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis"
^ this made me roflcopter.
This shows you how much thought and time CCP actually put into addressing this issue. Yes, it is an issue and sure changes can be made. But to think that four devs in a matter of five hours can come up with a solution to something that could break many aspects of gameplay is probably the most arrogant and absurd thing I've ever heard.
Maybe with three other people and five hours I can solve world peace!
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:29:00 -
[1336]
Originally by: evilphoenix So you desire gorilla warfare to exist after the nerf? How do you propose I get past the 50 man gatecamp?
They should introduce a range of ship which can sneakly bypass gatecamps tbh..
Oh, wait..
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Tolderan
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:29:00 -
[1337]
Slowboats FTW, i love this Changes
I think lots of people needs handkerchiefs now
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:30:00 -
[1338]
Originally by: Tolderan Slowboats FTW, i love this Changes
I think lots of people needs handkerchiefs now
don't think this will make your alliance suck any less.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:30:00 -
[1339]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: evilphoenix So you desire gorilla warfare to exist after the nerf? How do you propose I get past the 50 man gatecamp?
They should introduce a range of ship which can sneakly bypass gatecamps tbh..
Oh, wait..
And you expect those uber awesome black ops to jump bridge past the gate camps into what system that isn't cynojammed again?
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Shiwan Khan
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:31:00 -
[1340]
So do CCP honestly just sit around and think, "how can we make it impossible for a smaller gang to attack a fleet two times their size?". All this does is promote blob warfare of hundreds of battleships where loading the grid is bigger than any tactical move you can make.
Reposted from other thread.
Anyway, basically I think this boils down to a group of forum warriors that always complain about nano gangs and how they are "unkillable" when they are too lazy to fit out rapiers/huginns with claymores and overloading. The game is fine the way it is, and anyone that regularly pvp's knows this. With the amount of people that play the game, there are really very few options remaining for smaller-sized groups that rely on setups, pvp ability, and sp specialization to combat large alliance blobs. If this change is indeed the end of fast ships then it kills an entire facet of combat and eliminates the abilty to fight blobs without being in a blob yourself. ____________________________________________
AEKDB |
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OVERCOPES 1
Amarr Amarr Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:31:00 -
[1341]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Tolderan Slowboats FTW, i love this Changes
I think lots of people needs handkerchiefs now
don't think this will make your alliance suck any less.
But will it stop PL crying any less.
Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P |
Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:33:00 -
[1342]
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Kerfira 1. Why are your scouts so bad they didn't warn you about the carrier blob so you could go around it? 2. How long does it take for carriers to lock small targets, and how many times can you warp out in that time?
Unfortunately, you'll have to THINK now when playing EVE, and you'll have to face a risk similar to everyone else who're not nano'ed
Oh I'm sorry, we should just avoid all things having to do with PVP unless we can find a lone ratter in a belt after traveling for an hour...
Why SHOULD your small group be able to get through a carrier battlegroup? Because you spent a lot of ISK on snakes?
However, you are touching another problem. The lack of small-gang targets in 0.0. The main reason for this is most likely that the only way to make money in 0.0 that is superior to making money in empire is moon mining.... which doesn't provide small-gang targets.
Ratting? Better money (in the long run) to do high-sec L4 missions. Exploration? You'll be in deadspace, so you're pretty safe with a scout. Mining? Sorry.. Silly idea... Other hunters? Bingo. Only target really left....
The only real target are other hunters.... who generally come in groups... So, blob leads to larger blog. Repeat....
Solo or very small-gang money-making in 0.0 is not worth it, thus the targets for small gangs are not there.
What is needed to address THAT problem is a change to the high/low/no-sec reward equation... A couple of suggestions: 1. A big fat nerf of high-sec L4 mission rewards. 2. No refinable loot drops from L4 missions. 3. Severe reduction of 'roid size in empire (making them not worthy of barge attention).
I make money for my 0.0 activities by high-sec L4 missions. I know how good they are! Semi-afk, available on demand, 20-40m ISK/hour with next to no risk.... Compare that to ratting....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:33:00 -
[1343]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 25/07/2008 22:34:43
Originally by: Zabijucha
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Zabijucha Rapier, Huggin, Hyena will be totaly useless. Tkanks CCP, I got only one mini recon char skilled,now all ships I like and I can use are broken. Simple you do not respect people who invest time and money in your game. Better go under whine this all pvp crips. Because they are so stupid that they do not know how to counter nano.
You're talking crap, man, those will be usefull as long as there is need in webbing. They will no longer be a "must have" though, just "nice to have"
Compare after patch rapier/huggin/hyena with falcon/rook/kitsune and arazu/lachesis/keres and pilgrim/curse/sentinel. Who talking crap? Now Minmatar EW ships are ludicrous gimped. FC wont say "nice to have a Rapier" in gang, but "take better ship".
Dampener nerf hit gallente recons, nos/neut nerf hit amarrs, web nerf hits minmatar recon, ECM nerf is probly next thing on nerf agenda Nothing catastrophic, just the usual rotation.
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Velvet69
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:34:00 -
[1344]
Originally by: DeadDuck I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, ......
How can you say that after a dev posted this ?
o/
Velve
IXC Velvet69 Proud Member of 'The House of Prawn' |
VoiceInTheDesert
Gallente Diplomatic Disruption
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:35:00 -
[1345]
Nanos are nerfed....and they're not even dead (since webs got nerfed as well), but nano pilots are sill whining.
Nano is still a viable option IMO. Just not as good as before (read "best").
The nerf and changes should make this game more interesting. Any of those pilots who are claiming that this will become "drakes online" have obviously been in their nano ships so long that they their minds fell out in mid-warp somewhere (running away from a fight no doubt).
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:36:00 -
[1346]
Again I think this is overdoing it. I think the introduction of something like the warp scramblers turning off mwd's and web falloff range idea would be much better.
Latest Video
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Sykes
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:36:00 -
[1347]
Edited by: Sykes on 25/07/2008 22:42:28 Edited by: Sykes on 25/07/2008 22:39:10 I guess for me the question is what happens after this nerf when a small and highly skilled PvP corp attacks a major 0.0 entity in its own territory, going up against: cyno-jammers, jump bridges, intel channels, system scanners and a massive blob of experienced pilots on standby. That's what it means to do 'guerilla warfare' in Eve and since all those advantages to the 0.0 territory holder were introduced, nanos have been one of the few approaches that gave a small, highly skilled gang a faint chance of taking on the big 0.0 blobs.
So I'm very interested to know how CCP are going to test whether 'guerilla warfare' still works after making these changes. I could see that these changes might be good, but the complexity of Eve means that they are inevitably going to have emergent qualities. That being so, testing is vital if you don't want a situation where the only solution to an 0.0 holder's blob is to bring a bigger blob.
So my question is, how exactly are the devs going to validate that 'guerilla warfare still works'?
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:37:00 -
[1348]
Originally by: Velvet69
Originally by: DeadDuck I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, ......
How can you say that after a dev posted this ?
o/
Velve
just wow
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Kyle Haque
Solstice Systems Development Concourse Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:38:00 -
[1349]
Ok where to start,
I started reading the devblog and well it started out fine we could benefit from a rebalance of ship speed keeping in mind specialist speed ships. (Inties, vagas, and certain faction ships) All good.
Scrams turning off mwds not a problem but there is a few thing needed to be looked at. First off didnt we just have this removal of dual function mods? It seems a bit overpowered in one slot disable someones ability to close range and warp. Solution as other might have mentioned a mwd script for scrams. 2 points of distruption or mwd bye bye button (possible hictor script too?).
reactivation delay on mwds: no comments could be good depends on how long anything over 2-3 seconds is rather crippling
MWD meta levels: Now this suggested change is way off if you want ti re-adjust the percents or the differences in percent that fine but making 20 something redundant mods that have no useful advantages from another be my guest.
Webs: Huginns and rapiers should be exempt unless you give them a defensive ewar and target painters don't count.
Polys: polycarbs are slightly overpowered easy balance PC T1: 10% mass reduction nanofiber T2: 12.5% or maybe 15% mass reduction PC T2: 15% mass reduction Domination nanofiber: 17.5% or 20% mass reduction.
Polycarbs a been slighly tweaked and made domination less useless.
Overdrives, Implants and Gang Bonuses Gang mod change is reasonable. Leave overdrives as is for now or map them like the Polycarbs and nanofibers above Snakes if your going to touch snakes all faction implants must be looked at. Personally I believe they are fine as is but if you are going to nerf them it needs to be a sweeping nerf.
Boosters: Do we really need to look at these? Almost no one uses the due to the drawbacks. and the people who do have shelled out some training time and isk to use them. By removing the velocity bonus and turning it into another useless booster as it is there are only 3-4 that are even worth using them.
Other Small changes: "Afterburners are being slightly adjusted to decrease the variation in speed boost from 105-171% to 112.5-162%" This says to me "We want to make everyone go the same slow speed." That and along with the snake nerf its says to me isk shouldn't matter in eve... if thats the case can you make it so I can fit a doomsday on my rifter plzmkaybai.
Overall as introduced this nerf has way too many implications across many different game play styles. This is in its current form is a swift kick to the balls to minmatar pilots and a square ball tap to gallente pilots as well. Luckly we have some time to review these ideas on the test server and get a solution that is reasonable.
To the Dev/GM that showed us a 4km/s vaga fitout with these words next to each other: "Implants. full snake set. No special named modules etc." put down your GM tools make a TQ character from scratch and come back when you have a full snake set (not to mention the t2 rigs).
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:38:00 -
[1350]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Nanos are nerfed....and they're not even dead (since webs got nerfed as well), but nano pilots are sill whining.
Nano is still a viable option IMO. Just not as good as before (read "best").
The nerf and changes should make this game more interesting. Any of those pilots who are claiming that this will become "drakes online" have obviously been in their nano ships so long that they their minds fell out in mid-warp somewhere (running away from a fight no doubt).
It's not the nano nerfs we're having issues with, it's the "lets continue to take a baseball bat to problems and end up screwing up more than we fix" approach that CCP is using.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:39:00 -
[1351]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 22:44:06
Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Ok, now I'm going to call you out on this, do you actually pvp and use those things? A) not every ship has missile launcher hardpoints nor is there much of an incentive to fit one even if there is b) defenders just don't work and even if they did they are not going to shoot down 7 missiles from a drake, 5 missiles from a cerb or whatever.
Of.c. I don't use defenders Neither does anyone else afaik. I don't use TD's either even though I can. Same reason: They're in general useless compared to other things in the slots they use.
Guerilla warfare is perfectly feasible with non-nano'ed ships. However, next to no risk guerilla warfare isn't. It shouldn't be either, no matter how much ISK you spend!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:39:00 -
[1352]
Man, the amount of nerd-rage in this thread is just ridiculous. Where's the love for CCP? Have they not generally made excellent game design decisions when it comes to Eve? Have they not made a brilliant game that we all love?
I mean please, do you think they don't have a deep understanding of the mechanics in Eve? The problems, the things that work perfectly, etc? Remember, they're not just developers, they're also every bit the dedicated players the rest of us are.
Give them the benefit of the doubt, provide constructive criticism and not just nerd-rage, test out the changes in SiSi, and then provide more constructive feedback. They want Eve to be as good as the rest of us do. Help them, don't just ***** and threaten to quit!
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:40:00 -
[1353]
So far nobody has emphasized the lack of data mining results from EVE database. EVE database is full of information on who is flying what ship, who's using snakes and other implants, how many people use boosters. EVE records combat kills and losses, recording setups used on dead ships. There is a huge amount of information available that can be data mined for useful conclusions.
Why do we need it?
Consider the statement: "nano-Ishtar's flying at 3500 m/s are completely overpowered and broken!"
What exactly does it mean? Without any additional information, we can only base our judgement of that statement on personal experience. People with different experience will disagree on that statement. There seems to be no way to tell who's wrong or right.. but there is a way!
EVE database has the answers. It may not have clear cut answers to that particular statement, but it can provide solid foundations on which to rely on. We CAN know how many nano-Ishtars are out there, we can know how many people they "pwn" and how many (or few) of them end up dying because of their "invulnerability". We can find out just how well this speed invulnerability argument holds up in practice.
We can also find out the costs involved in ships destroyed. We can learn how much damage in isk a 4 billion nanoship causes to other players before it is destroyed. We can compare the costs. We can compare the ship numbers.
From all that data, we can work out a set of facts and based on them we can guide our judgements on specific issues, such as "the nanoships are broken". People could interpret the facts in different ways, the is no clear cut logic, but at least it will be based on something solid.
CCP, if you are going to do something this drastic, at least dignify us with some real data analysis.
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OVERCOPES 1
Amarr Amarr Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:40:00 -
[1354]
I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P |
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:41:00 -
[1355]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Nanos are nerfed....and they're not even dead (since webs got nerfed as well), but nano pilots are sill whining.
Nano is still a viable option IMO. Just not as good as before (read "best").
The nerf and changes should make this game more interesting. Any of those pilots who are claiming that this will become "drakes online" have obviously been in their nano ships so long that they their minds fell out in mid-warp somewhere (running away from a fight no doubt).
Or running from dudes like you who only come out when you out number us 10 to 1. Sure, you stick around for that fight.
We routinely jump into gangs larger than us only to have larger gangs of assorted battle cruisers and battleships and cruisers bugger the hell out leaving one or two alliance mates to die without a fight.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:41:00 -
[1356]
Originally by: Velvet69
Originally by: DeadDuck I believe that DEVS know how the game is played, ......
How can you say that after a dev posted this ?
o/
Velve
That's so amazing lol.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:42:00 -
[1357]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Yet we will still be better than you will ever dream, even after we change (or don't change since 90% of our ships only use a MWD as our sole speed mod).
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:42:00 -
[1358]
All in all, not too bad.... Personally, I would have liked to see a more gradual approach...
I would have liked to see a range increase in webs...to something like 25-30km. That would still allow nanos to disengage, but without crushing speed mods...
Staking penalty...is great..and needed.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:43:00 -
[1359]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They enjoy themselves using this perfectly acceptable game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP.
fixed for ya
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:43:00 -
[1360]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
And the fact that the large alliances who blob are going "good job". Go figure.
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RDevz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:44:00 -
[1361]
Adapt or die. Cry some more. Would you like a tissue? [Insert demeaning catchphrase that was used when torps/drones/nos/ECM was nerfed here].
The tears. Keep them coming. It's so wonderful to watch.
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Ksea Vholdor
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:46:00 -
[1362]
Originally by: The Mach Edited by: The Mach on 25/07/2008 16:07:38 CCP, no offensebut..... you kinda missed the water when you fell out of the nano ship.
hahahaha, made my day so true
...
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:46:00 -
[1363]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
I agree with this poster.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:48:00 -
[1364]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 25/07/2008 22:49:47
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
And the fact that the large alliances who blob are going "good job". Go figure.
Originally by: RDevz Adapt or die. Cry some more. Would you like a tissue? [Insert demeaning catchphrase that was used when torps/drones/nos/ECM was nerfed here].
The tears. Keep them coming. It's so wonderful to watch.
^ thanks for proving my point. It was even better that a Goon proved it.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:49:00 -
[1365]
Originally by: Militis Kolosok As an inty pilot, I fail 95% of the time :)
fixed for ya
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:49:00 -
[1366]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Care to explain how nanos were broken? _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Omega Bloodstone
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:50:00 -
[1367]
Whats everyone going on about?
I'll focus on matar pvp with relying on my superior weapon tracking, dps, and amazing slot layouts for tanking
If CCP has learned anything from nerfing it is that they are terrible at it. Work on the servers...
How is speed a factor in 5 minute grid loads? Work on the servers...
Skirmish is a screwed concept now? I thought it was the better form of pvp in EVE. Anything larger then a skirmish fleet fight is lagtacular. Work on the servers...
Eve game mechanics and servers "best tackler in Eve". Work on the servers...
Moral to the story, stop trying to think CCP, it doesn't work out like you intend. Hire someone to fix your hardware, let the ships do their thing. If someone wants to invest in a Capital ship's value in implants to go fast, screw it, let em, its the price of a Capital class ship.
Oh, and please don't turn the Arazu into a Arazurapier, there wont be any room for the rapier if an Arazu effectively webs harder then a rapier sporting a 50% web, scrams, and effects targeting...tisk tisk...
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:51:00 -
[1368]
Originally by: Asero
Originally by: Sakura Nihil So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.
Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?
i actually get 5,654m/s with 2 polycarbs(t1 ofc) 2 overdrives and 1 nano. thats with hac5 and accel control 4. is it bad that i beat the dev fit by 1500m/s at 1/40th the cost?
đ
/me pats on the shoulder... I know m8, i know.. --------- I want to phew phew
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:52:00 -
[1369]
Originally by: RDevz Adapt or die. Cry some more. Would you like a tissue? [Insert demeaning catchphrase that was used when torps/drones/nos/ECM was nerfed here].
The tears. Keep them coming. It's so wonderful to watch.
Blobbers love the nano-nerf. Small gang people hate it. Case and point in the quoted post above.
CCP, please don't make all these changes. It will effect Matari ships like your last BIG nerf hit the Lachesis. Seriously, it is that bad.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:53:00 -
[1370]
Originally by: Ituralde
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Care to explain how nanos were broken?
If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:53:00 -
[1371]
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone Whats everyone going on about?
I'll focus on matar pvp with relying on my superior weapon tracking, dps, and amazing slot layouts for tanking
If CCP has learned anything from nerfing it is that they are terrible at it. Work on the servers...
How is speed a factor in 5 minute grid loads? Work on the servers...
Skirmish is a screwed concept now? I thought it was the better form of pvp in EVE. Anything larger then a skirmish fleet fight is lagtacular. Work on the servers...
Eve game mechanics and servers "best tackler in Eve". Work on the servers...
Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:56:00 -
[1372]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 22:56:57
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
EDIT: Damn. Thread is slowing down. 3 minutes without a post!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:56:00 -
[1373]
From: The Blog
Quote: Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
Basically, this is an argument that speed tanking should not be viable.
And that is a faulty premise from the start. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:58:00 -
[1374]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone Whats everyone going on about?
I'll focus on matar pvp with relying on my superior weapon tracking, dps, and amazing slot layouts for tanking
If CCP has learned anything from nerfing it is that they are terrible at it. Work on the servers...
How is speed a factor in 5 minute grid loads? Work on the servers...
Skirmish is a screwed concept now? I thought it was the better form of pvp in EVE. Anything larger then a skirmish fleet fight is lagtacular. Work on the servers...
Eve game mechanics and servers "best tackler in Eve". Work on the servers...
Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Yah, BoB/ASCN in EC- was pretty pathetic, I agree.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:58:00 -
[1375]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
Like I've mentioned before. What's the point in making isk and pvping if you don't plan on outspending your opponent on better ships/mods to give you an advantage?
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:58:00 -
[1376]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 22:56:57
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
EDIT: Damn. Thread is slowing down. 3 minutes without a post!
Wait, how does nanoing a ship make in an I-win button? Please explain. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Omega Bloodstone
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:59:00 -
[1377]
Edited by: Omega Bloodstone on 25/07/2008 22:59:13
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone Whats everyone going on about?
I'll focus on matar pvp with relying on my superior weapon tracking, dps, and amazing slot layouts for tanking
If CCP has learned anything from nerfing it is that they are terrible at it. Work on the servers...
How is speed a factor in 5 minute grid loads? Work on the servers...
Skirmish is a screwed concept now? I thought it was the better form of pvp in EVE. Anything larger then a skirmish fleet fight is lagtacular. Work on the servers...
Eve game mechanics and servers "best tackler in Eve". Work on the servers...
Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Your post is deliciously rediculous giving the fact that 120 (60 v 60) ships in local lags the system to hell and back. Its not a matter of blobbing, its lagging before there is a real blob to lag it.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:59:00 -
[1378]
Originally by: Kerfira
Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Funny, a lot of alliances have been out blobbing their opponents since before goons were even around. Afaik bob invented the B(l)OB
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 22:59:00 -
[1379]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 25/07/2008 23:01:24
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
The fact is that most pvpers fly nano ships because its great fun and adds levels of skill to the game that sitting opposite another fleet and plugging away like morons until one side runs out of ships will never achieve.
Who the hell do ccp think they are to remove a fun but harmless form of pvp from the game that many ppl enjoy.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
EDIT: Damn. Thread is slowing down. 3 minutes without a post!
Nano is not a i-win button its a i have a lot of fun style of pvp instead of a turkey shoot thats eventually decided by who has the most ships to begin with and so has some left at the end of the battle.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:01:00 -
[1380]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 22:56:57
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
So basically you're arguing that ISK should buy you I-Win buttons? Strangely enough, your alliance has always been an outspoken opponent of people with ISK having titans and caps.... I think I read the terms 'I-Win' and 'ISK' quite a lot from your guys in various discussions.
Ironic, isn't it?
EDIT: Damn. Thread is slowing down. 3 minutes without a post!
Nerfing I win buttons is always good. I don't think anyone complains about a reduction in speed for the 25kms interceptor or even the 15kms vagabond. But why does a 4-5kms HAC need to be nerfed? They are certainly killable, even a simple T2 fitted ceptor can chase them down easily. But it does generally require some planning and thought to kill a nanogang doing 5kms. Having been in those nanogangs, there are enough opponents who can take on a nanogang like that.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:04:00 -
[1381]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 23:03:58
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone
Originally by: Kerfira Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Your post is deliciously rediculous giving the fact that 120 (60 v 60) ships in local lags the system to hell and back. Its not a matter of blobbing, its lagging before there is a real blob to lag it.
Read what I wrote (bolded)! Before, people might have blobbed, but not with the intent of lagging out opponents! A 'certain alliance' was the first!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tate Aoko
Gryphon Dreaming
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:05:00 -
[1382]
Good to see CCP looking into this
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:07:00 -
[1383]
With the upcoming nerf Eve combat will now consist of the following: Assemble as many missile ships as you can and stand toe to toe with your opponent and exchange punches to the face. When you win, because you have more people than the other guy, you can shout "LOLSTFUNOOB!" and pretend you are the best pilot ever. All because you can fly a mission-fitted drake.
Good Job CCP. You are ruining Blasters AND speedtanking in one shot.
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Sir Hades
Caldari Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:07:00 -
[1384]
Oh hey guys, I am responsible for this nerf. I just bought my first vaga and now nanos are being nerfed. Sorry ;_;
But seriously CCP, while some nano setups were a bit over the top, most nano ships are NOT going that fast. I highly suggest that you rethink this idea and do a LOT of testing on SiSi.
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Biswen
My Small Personal Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:08:00 -
[1385]
Just logged on ... I can't fugging belive this!! The End Of Small Gang Warfare 4TL! What the fug have you been thinking devs?!
**** this shit and **** CCP!
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:10:00 -
[1386]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Nerfing I win buttons is always good. I don't think anyone complains about a reduction in speed for the 25kms interceptor or even the 15kms vagabond. But why does a 4-5kms HAC need to be nerfed? They are certainly killable, even a simple T2 fitted ceptor can chase them down easily. But it does generally require some planning and thought to kill a nanogang doing 5kms. Having been in those nanogangs, there are enough opponents who can take on a nanogang like that.
The question is whether a cruiser SHOULD be able to go 4km/s. As you say, they're killable, but it's not easy to catch them. Question is whether it is too easy for them to get out of tight spots.... It certainly seem that way given how many people use this type of setup.
I really don't think it'll matter either. People will whine for a while, then adapt to the new realities.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Omega Bloodstone
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:11:00 -
[1387]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2008 23:03:58
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone
Originally by: Kerfira Lag only really became a major issue after a certain alliance made it their tactic to outblob their opponents..... Makes your post deliciously ironic
Your post is deliciously rediculous giving the fact that 120 (60 v 60) ships in local lags the system to hell and back. Its not a matter of blobbing, its lagging before there is a real blob to lag it.
Read what I wrote (bolded)! Before, people might have blobbed, but not with the intent of lagging out opponents! A 'certain alliance' was the first!
Awesome dude, good point and post, glad the first alliance to do this wasn't us. I'd feel like you held something against us
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:11:00 -
[1388]
Originally by: Nemesor You are ruining Blasters AND speedtanking in one shot.
I actually think they are boosting blasters and the low CPU capacity of Gallente ships, making scramblers more important, but whatever.
Ghost Festival is recruiting. |
Trash Monster
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:11:00 -
[1389]
CCP use drugs?
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:12:00 -
[1390]
We didn't want the minmatar race anyway.
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:14:00 -
[1391]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Nemesor You are ruining Blasters AND speedtanking in one shot.
I actually think they are boosting blasters and the low CPU capacity of Gallente ships, making scramblers more important, but whatever.
Giving any opponent the ability to shut off a Deimos's MWD is a HUGE boost. Yeah.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:14:00 -
[1392]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Nerfing I win buttons is always good. I don't think anyone complains about a reduction in speed for the 25kms interceptor or even the 15kms vagabond. But why does a 4-5kms HAC need to be nerfed? They are certainly killable, even a simple T2 fitted ceptor can chase them down easily. But it does generally require some planning and thought to kill a nanogang doing 5kms. Having been in those nanogangs, there are enough opponents who can take on a nanogang like that.
The question is whether a cruiser SHOULD be able to go 4km/s. As you say, they're killable, but it's not easy to catch them. Question is whether it is too easy for them to get out of tight spots.... It certainly seem that way given how many people use this type of setup.
I really don't think it'll matter either. People will whine for a while, then adapt to the new realities.
After all, the Vagabond's bonuses aren't designed around speedtanking. Any successful Vaga should have a passive shield tank. It pwns.
Yes, cruisers shouldn't be able to go fast.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:14:00 -
[1393]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Nemesor You are ruining Blasters AND speedtanking in one shot.
I actually think they are boosting blasters and the low CPU capacity of Gallente ships, making scramblers more important, but whatever.
Since blasters are so useful when getting into range takes a ****ing miracle and god's blessing. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:15:00 -
[1394]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 25/07/2008 22:56:45
Originally by: Ituralde
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Care to explain how nanos were broken?
If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
The fact is that most pvpers fly nano ships because its great fun and adds levels of skill to the game that sitting opposite another fleet and plugging away like morons until one side runs out of ships will never achieve.
Who the hell do ccp think they are to remove a fun but harmless form of pvp from the game that many ppl enjoy.
Dude, you're talking as if you cant take 5-15 guys together, hop in ships with a tank (omg!) then go out into some enemies region and kill stuff.
You can dipshit! Its just htat the regions owners can now kill you without resorting to equally nano'd ships or huginns. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Daelin Blackleaf
The Reclaimed
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:15:00 -
[1395]
Pandemic Legion, 167 posts, around 10% of the entire thread, bravo. That's assuming I haven't missed a few and not counting the few people from Illuminati. who don't have their alliance tag on and of course any possible alt posts.
Exactly what did you manage to get across in the last 150 posts that the first 17 didn't quite cover?
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abzzo
S-44
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:16:00 -
[1396]
This says it all about dev and CCP:
Quote: That being said, this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis:
A million dollar company that dose this big changes in five hour and whit only four ppl. This is the ppl who tell me as a customer that when I have payed for my apple and left the store I cant share it whit a friend.
This is the ppl who closes there eyes of the real issues in eve. Like there hardware...
I dont say changes is a bad thing but I dont think dev have thought this thrue realy.
My skills and my wallent shouldnt give me an uper hand on a guy who started 2 mounth ago. Why do I even play this game I might wonder. I can go up to a raven that has a char thats only 4 mounth old in a zealot or a curse and damn that hurts. Im not even sure if I can win the fight. You say that isk shouldnt give you a win button. I aggree but If you have the isk and the skills it should give you a uper hand. Then it go down to tactics.
For the first time I cant answer the question why a play this game. It dosent mather what computer I have or what line of broadband I have but it still laggs (sorry ccp to hit you whit this real life oppinion but eve do lagg). You want everyone to be in this great big alliance and big fights. Thats why you created the faction warfare. But it still laggs.
I have one last queston:
Do you devs/CCP/GM even play the game???
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:17:00 -
[1397]
Originally by: Nemesor Giving any opponent the ability to shut off a Deimos's MWD is a HUGE boost. Yeah.
Put a warp scrambler on your Deimos and shut their's off too? :\
Ghost Festival is recruiting. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:17:00 -
[1398]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Nerfing I win buttons is always good. I don't think anyone complains about a reduction in speed for the 25kms interceptor or even the 15kms vagabond. But why does a 4-5kms HAC need to be nerfed? They are certainly killable, even a simple T2 fitted ceptor can chase them down easily. But it does generally require some planning and thought to kill a nanogang doing 5kms. Having been in those nanogangs, there are enough opponents who can take on a nanogang like that.
The question is whether a cruiser SHOULD be able to go 4km/s. As you say, they're killable, but it's not easy to catch them. Question is whether it is too easy for them to get out of tight spots.... It certainly seem that way given how many people use this type of setup.
I really don't think it'll matter either. People will whine for a while, then adapt to the new realities.
What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing.
If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:17:00 -
[1399]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Pandemic Legion, 167 posts, around 10% of the entire thread, bravo. That's assuming I haven't missed a few and not counting the few people from Illuminati. who don't have their alliance tag on and of course any possible alt posts.
Exactly what did you manage to get across in the last 150 posts that the first 17 didn't quite cover?
That their one-trick pony is about to be put down, and they're in a raw state of panic about it?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:18:00 -
[1400]
Edited by: Hul''ka on 25/07/2008 23:18:19
Originally by: KingCappo
Originally by: Asero [Vagabond, Nano] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x5
that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.
gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time
You have access to the CCP internal test server to get those number post nano nerf?
no, my good man, those are the ships us mortals fly on tranq.... this looks overpowered? --------- I want to phew phew
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:19:00 -
[1401]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 25/07/2008 22:56:45
Originally by: Ituralde
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Care to explain how nanos were broken?
If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
The fact is that most pvpers fly nano ships because its great fun and adds levels of skill to the game that sitting opposite another fleet and plugging away like morons until one side runs out of ships will never achieve.
Who the hell do ccp think they are to remove a fun but harmless form of pvp from the game that many ppl enjoy.
Dude, you're talking as if you cant take 5-15 guys together, hop in ships with a tank (omg!) then go out into some enemies region and kill stuff.
You can dipshit! Its just htat the regions owners can now kill you without resorting to equally nano'd ships or huginns.
The blaster nerf kills a good deal of your tanked ships.
Additionally, Jump bridges supply a massive defensive mobility advantage.
More importantly, you don't need huginns and rapiers to counter nanos, please refer to my wall of text on page 51.
Cheers,
Ituralde _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:19:00 -
[1402]
Instead of going through all these many changes, why not fix the one issue that is currently broken: the webbers.
You already mentioned in the blog, that there is "no tension, just slack", so you admit there is no viable counter. Webs are meant to be a counter for speed, so fix them.
Currently webs don't "web" i.e. slow down the target, they only cut the max speed... and the targeted ship continues to coast until it is out of web's limited range. You already implemented "slow down" feature on the Heavy Interdictors where they immediately slow down once the bubble is activated. Apply the same code to the web's effect, and maybe buff the range... and you got your "tension" that's required for balance. == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:20:00 -
[1403]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 20:22:09
Originally by: Thorradin I'm glad to see a change is finally being made to an aspect of the game that is flat out broken. The arguments coming from most of the pro-nano players tend to fall under "Well I put in time training for it" and "It cost me a lot of money", both of which are nothing but pathetic attempts at defending a problem aspect of the game that let them feel skilled in ways they aren't, as skilled players will do just fine, and those who relied on overkill nanos will just die because their overkill is balanced.
I have a question for the 'My snakes cost X billion isk' crowd:
If your 3-4 billion ISK snakes let you be that overpowered, then will you help me argue that rarer, more expensive mods are made godly too? Estamel's invuln goes for an easy 10-15 billion isk.
Thorradin, four month old Caldari FW alt.
Says the PL crier that his 'skill' has just been nerfed.
You know I'm right, and it pains you so you're left with calling me an alt, hoping it somehow makes what I said any less true. Much of the arguments put forth to defend the absurdity of nanos were nothing short of pathetic. Skill points to fly nano ships are a joke, and other aspects that take just as long, or longer, to train for are nowhere near the level of nano bullshittery. Cost, in a player driven market, is never a reason, just a vain excuse, and if you think otherwise, then I want you and your fellow nano-criers to scream bloody murder at CCP to make other expensive items/implants/setups just as powerful, or more so, since they cost so much.
That you cannot handle having the truth thrown in your face isn't my problem, but it does look like a lot of 'skilled' players are going to have to put up or shutup when they have to do more than drop a couple hundred million ISK on some mods and rigs to make their ship unkillable to all but a select few setups. I wouldn't mind seeing droneboats or active tanks have the immunity of absurd nanoships, but I'm more in favor of game balance.
The argument of skill investment to justify nano overkill is hollow and worthless, coupled with the fact that the 'nano ships' are most HACs, ships built with resistances and designed to tank. It's like you people think HACs didn't use to cost 4-5x as much as they do now, and die easier, yet still get used by people willing to front this ISK.
Cost investment, again, is completely bogus. People can spend just as much on other non-nano setups and not even have a fraction of the capabilities of a nano ship.
And lets not forget, as the blog itself mentions, nanos are so powerful because so many mods had 0 stacking penalties with each other. It'd be like if active hardeners, passive hardeners, and resist rigs never got stacking penalties. You'd have tanks that go well beyond overpowered, and people would *****, and the tanking would get nerfed, just like the days of filling a tempest or geddon's lows with damage mods to deal absurd damage is gone.
You and others like you are welcome to keep resorting to pointing out the age of this character, you're wrong when you say I'm an alt, but you're also wrong in thinking nanoships don't need nerfed, so why stop you now?
/me gets some more popcorn.
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:21:00 -
[1404]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Nemesor Giving any opponent the ability to shut off a Deimos's MWD is a HUGE boost. Yeah.
Put a warp scrambler on your Deimos and shut their's off too? :\
Great, you scram the T1 frigate, while your primary is 20km away and your gang is suffering from lack of DPS on target. Oh... you might have an activation delay on your MWD too!
Please, take your douchebaggery elsewhere.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:21:00 -
[1405]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Nemesor Giving any opponent the ability to shut off a Deimos's MWD is a HUGE boost. Yeah.
Put a warp scrambler on your Deimos and shut their's off too? :\
And watch anything further than 7.5kms just warp off?
Just sayin' _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:21:00 -
[1406]
Originally by: Trash Monster CCP use drugs?
ccc
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Sentinel Eeex
Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:23:00 -
[1407]
Originally by: XxAngelxX I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again.
CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships.
Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix.
Pretty much the most ******ed post in the whole thread.
Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered?
I find it amusing that nano***s think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ****ing "tactics" or "strategy".
And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing.
We'll see...
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:23:00 -
[1408]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 20:22:09
Originally by: Thorradin I'm glad to see a change is finally being made to an aspect of the game that is flat out broken. The arguments coming from most of the pro-nano players tend to fall under "Well I put in time training for it" and "It cost me a lot of money", both of which are nothing but pathetic attempts at defending a problem aspect of the game that let them feel skilled in ways they aren't, as skilled players will do just fine, and those who relied on overkill nanos will just die because their overkill is balanced.
I have a question for the 'My snakes cost X billion isk' crowd:
If your 3-4 billion ISK snakes let you be that overpowered, then will you help me argue that rarer, more expensive mods are made godly too? Estamel's invuln goes for an easy 10-15 billion isk.
Thorradin, four month old Caldari FW alt.
Says the PL crier that his 'skill' has just been nerfed.
You know I'm right, and it pains you so you're left with calling me an alt, hoping it somehow makes what I said any less true. Much of the arguments put forth to defend the absurdity of nanos were nothing short of pathetic. Skill points to fly nano ships are a joke, and other aspects that take just as long, or longer, to train for are nowhere near the level of nano bullshittery. Cost, in a player driven market, is never a reason, just a vain excuse, and if you think otherwise, then I want you and your fellow nano-criers to scream bloody murder at CCP to make other expensive items/implants/setups just as powerful, or more so, since they cost so much.
That you cannot handle having the truth thrown in your face isn't my problem, but it does look like a lot of 'skilled' players are going to have to put up or shutup when they have to do more than drop a couple hundred million ISK on some mods and rigs to make their ship unkillable to all but a select few setups. I wouldn't mind seeing droneboats or active tanks have the immunity of absurd nanoships, but I'm more in favor of game balance.
The argument of skill investment to justify nano overkill is hollow and worthless, coupled with the fact that the 'nano ships' are most HACs, ships built with resistances and designed to tank. It's like you people think HACs didn't use to cost 4-5x as much as they do now, and die easier, yet still get used by people willing to front this ISK.
Cost investment, again, is completely bogus. People can spend just as much on other non-nano setups and not even have a fraction of the capabilities of a nano ship.
And lets not forget, as the blog itself mentions, nanos are so powerful because so many mods had 0 stacking penalties with each other. It'd be like if active hardeners, passive hardeners, and resist rigs never got stacking penalties. You'd have tanks that go well beyond overpowered, and people would *****, and the tanking would get nerfed, just like the days of filling a tempest or geddon's lows with damage mods to deal absurd damage is gone.
You and others like you are welcome to keep resorting to pointing out the age of this character, you're wrong when you say I'm an alt, but you're also wrong in thinking nanoships don't need nerfed, so why stop you now?
/me gets some more popcorn.
Basically, you are saying that nanos are overpowered because they let you run away, yeah? Or am I missing something? Care to please elaborate?
_____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:23:00 -
[1409]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 25/07/2008 22:56:45
Originally by: Ituralde
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 I find it amusing that all the people that are crying foul of these changes are the likes of pandemic legion,EXCEED AMD TRI.
They have made there name from this broken game mechanic and are now bleating like stuffed pigs about it getting BALANCED.
Good move CCP dont sway on this one.
Care to explain how nanos were broken?
If you spent 6 bil on implants and mods then fitted them to a hac you could go as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor and drake pilots could not solo kill you.
The fact is that most pvpers fly nano ships because its great fun and adds levels of skill to the game that sitting opposite another fleet and plugging away like morons until one side runs out of ships will never achieve.
Who the hell do ccp think they are to remove a fun but harmless form of pvp from the game that many ppl enjoy.
Dude, you're talking as if you cant take 5-15 guys together, hop in ships with a tank (omg!) then go out into some enemies region and kill stuff.
You can dipshit! Its just htat the regions owners can now kill you without resorting to equally nano'd ships or huginns.
You mean, region owners can now drop capships on top of everyone and their mother without having to actually think about how to engage an opponent. They can run circles around any invading gang with battleships thanks to their jumpbridge network, because now the main counter to that is getting nerfed. I remember how ASCN used to fight roaming gangs. It was a long chase, where a defensive gang slowly accumulated numbers and tried to catch up to an enemy. Now, with the current number of people in Eve and the jumpbridges, you get a 30 man gang parked on top of you in 5 mins, and there is nothing you can do about it.
And the sad thing is, this will not lead to more good fights, it will reduce them. If you destroy the real nanogang warfare, people will either switch to interceptors and not engage any significantly sized gang, or they just will stop roaming as it gets pointless when you get blobbed in by defenders using their jumpbridge networks to box you in. Nanos were the counter to jumpbridge networks.
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Furion iV
Minmatar Gentlemen Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:25:00 -
[1410]
The speed nerf is bearable. However, with that nerf in mind, how does nerfing the web actually make sense? If the nano ships are going 500ms-1 slower (say 2700ms-1 for a non poly'd rapier), justify the huge reduction to the web's webbing amount. The minnie recons already have poor dps aswell as only 1 role (who honestly fit a target painter?). If a ship get's dual webbed before the [possible] nerf, it will be going slightly faster than after:
3000 *0.1*0.1 = 30ms-1 2500 *0.1*0.1 = 25ms-1
Is it not also slightly ironic that the web nerf(with the scram boost) will promote nano'ing? What is the point of getting in web range if it means you lose your mwd anyways thus people will be nano'ing to control range. How can a bs control range, or simply stop their target from drifting out of web range, if webs are nerfed.
Having skimmed this post I'm not sure I've actually made my point very clear so feel free to flame me and point out my mistakes. I also apolagize for the excessive use of the word "nerf".
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 -
[1411]
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Pretty much the most ******ed post in the whole thread.
Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered?
I find it amusing that nano***s think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ****ing "tactics" or "strategy".
And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing.
We'll see...
Care to explain why nanos need a nerf and how they confer an unfair advantage in PVP? _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 -
[1412]
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: XxAngelxX I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again.
CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships.
Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix.
Pretty much the most ******ed post in the whole thread.
Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered?
I find it amusing that nano***s think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ****ing "tactics" or "strategy".
And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing.
We'll see...
So does that mean blobbing is "tactics"? Case in point this post coming from a Goon saying nanos isn't a strategy.
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Howen
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 -
[1413]
in my opinion there was no problem with speed.Bosting warp scramber is good idea more options with pvp. P. S. you can achive same effect in ballance just increasing tracking speed and speed/explosion velocity with missles.
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Escobar Noreaga
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:30:00 -
[1414]
I love flying nano ships TBO, but even i must admit that im looking forward to the retuning of the game.
Doesnt really bother me much since i can fly every ship t1 and t2 up to and including battleships of everyrace, i will definatly be spending some time thinking up some new out of the box fittings.
Eve was getting a tad stale imho and this looks like a much needed breath of fresh air.
Quote: null
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:32:00 -
[1415]
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Tell you what, fly 4km/s at a missile ship, then fly 4km/s at a gunboat, straight line both times.
You get back to me on which one blows your inty out of the sky and which one is still only doing 0.1 damage. Missiles have a higher threshold to work with, but it goes purely by target speed and nothing else when checking (and sig ofcourse).
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 -
[1416]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing.
If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet.
I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships.
HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO).
That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that.
I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are).....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Eviless
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 -
[1417]
Originally by: Trojanman190 I dont understand why CCP's answer to EVERYTHING is to nerf it. Thats so ****ing backwards and depressing. Why do they constantly wish to move backwards instead of ADDING and BOOSTING things. You know... moving forwards. Nerfs nanos by BOOSTING something else.
GROW A PAIR.
Example of Nano Tears.
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Malena Panic
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 -
[1418]
Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot...
Because ships immediately stop dead when they are scrambled and webbed. ... |
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 23:34:00 -
[1419]
Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot...
7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway.
Ghost Festival is recruiting. |
Sykes
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:34:00 -
[1420]
Well, I think that if guerilla warfare is still possible, we'll find a way to do it. Star Fraction is all about tactical innovation after all. It'd be nice though to understand precisely how CCP plan to validate that it still works, as per their noble aspirations.
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Lady Rania
Minmatar The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 -
[1421]
43.3m minmatar spec char. Hmm wonder how long it would take me to get this char to fly Caldari as good as it does minmatar. Because you just doing the same to minmatar as you did to Amarr pretty mutch...
How about fixing lagg instead and your hardware. Or put grown ups at the table instead of 4 kids for 5 hours...
If I just shot you, someone payed a shitload of money to have you shot.. |
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 -
[1422]
Dear CCP Nozh,
how can it be, that just a few months ago, you and your colleges from the balancing department brought us scripts because you always felt that modules that give two bonuses are too strong, now present us a warp scrambler that still keeps its 2 points of scrambling AND deactivates MWDs? ++++++++++++++
Dear CCP Dionysus,
how can you in this very topic claim that this change is a nerf to ships that use non-stacking bonuses from manyfold sources, when instead of penalizing these massive amounts of items all affecting the attribute group, you nerf the entire range of items on an individual basis, without being ashamed of your self? Then propose the usage of boosters to get better speed, when your very own proposal switches x-instinct from speed to signature radius reduction, and then call an example with high grade snakes a stock setup without using fancy modules. ++++++++++++++
Honestly, this reminds me of Nozh' hour of glory when he "rebalanced" shield resistance amplifiers via excel, presenting blatant ignorance and fundamental lack of understanding of the flavour the races in New Eden were given by the original design team.
The statement that you need to closely monitor the ships that have MWD/web bonuses on Sisi once these changes are made is even funnier. When you nerf 1/2 to 3/4s of a ship's bonuses and decrease its speed which it had instead of a tank, you shouldn't really need to closely monitor it to know that it will be negatively affected. Big time. This at least should be plain obvious to even you.
And out of curiousity, did a vagabond pilot during your in-house testing manage to kill anything that wasn't frigate sized? And if he did, was it by accident or did he use a 1600mm Rolled Tungsten plate setup - on the t2 cruiser that is supposed to be the fastest of all. Was there more than the fluke chance of success against anything t2? We Matari already have a HAC that is only useful against smaller targets (Muninn), we do not need another one.
And how are gangs supposed to keep their t2 interceptor tacklers alive now? For turret ships, yes this is easy, a gangmate tracking disrupting the target. For drones it is a bit harder, as ceptors lack the DPS to rid themselves from Warrior IIs before they get killed. But for missile ships? Defender missiles do only work on missiles that are shot on you, missiles by design NEVER MISS, and the interceptor absolutely cannot outrun them anymore. I am obviously overseeing either a counter you had in mind of look into a design flaw the size of barn doors.
Thank you.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 -
[1423]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/07/2008 20:59:28
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw.
And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough?
Honestly, that is a terrible arguement.
Yes the wrecking hits are great. Allthough those barely scratching hits with missiles are annoying.
Luckily the Excellent hits from missiles happen a lot more often, especially against bigger targets, effectively increasing our DPS average.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 -
[1424]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Tell you what, fly 4km/s at a missile ship, then fly 4km/s at a gunboat, straight line both times.
You get back to me on which one blows your inty out of the sky and which one is still only doing 0.1 damage. Missiles have a higher threshold to work with, but it goes purely by target speed and nothing else when checking (and sig ofcourse).
And then try it with an inty circling your ship at 1km range while strafing you with his ACs. Guns won't hit due to the tracking, but missiles will when a ceptor is close because he needs to reduce speed to keep a small orbit. Missiles are great at short range and slower speeds, guns are better at idiots who fly at you with an MWD in a straight line. Any decent inty pilot will keep his transversal up vs a gunboat.
Its called a trade-off.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:36:00 -
[1425]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing.
If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet.
I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships.
HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO).
That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that.
I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are).....
Just because there is an alternative, doesn't mean you should nerf speed-based combat.
Nerf it if its overpowered.
Pray tell, how is it overpowered? _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:36:00 -
[1426]
Originally by: Korinn
Don't worry, I've unanchored all my poses in fountain and I'm cancelling my subscription as we speak
Can I have your stuff?
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Aya
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:38:00 -
[1427]
I see 2 good things coming from this nerf if it goes through
1. The people who whined about nanos will still get their asses kicked by the 04-05 people and realize its not the nano but the fact that they suck at this game which is causing them to die. 2. Hydra and Daisho will undock (instead of hiding in their stations)
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:38:00 -
[1428]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot...
7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway.
You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. A noob ship capable of shutting off your MWD... then webbing you. Yes... you can kill the frigate after you LOCK HIM... but now you have to wait for your reactivation time on your MWD to reset... THEN you have to motor toward your target again. All the while taking fire from your opponent... so even when you DO get into range, you have already been pounded on for enough time to render the fight effectively over.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:39:00 -
[1429]
Originally by: Korinn Don't worry, I've unanchored all my poses in fountain and I'm cancelling my subscription as we speak
If you're quitting, why did you bother un-anchoring your POS?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:41:00 -
[1430]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing.
If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet.
I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships.
HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO).
That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that.
I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are).....
The problem is, that just like with the wardec nerf, CCP does nothing for a long time and then goes completely off the scale in their response. Looking at the Dev responses in this thread and the original devblog, you can see the total ineptitude. They decided on this nerf in a single 5 hour session with 4 people. WTF? And then he proceeds to give examples of why nerfs were needed based on a 4 billion isk setup which very few people could ever afford to fly. It does not inspire any kind of trust that CCP has actually considered this properly with that kind of shoddy preparation and responses.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 -
[1431]
Originally by: Nemesor
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot...
7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway.
You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. A noob ship capable of shutting off your MWD... then webbing you. Yes... you can kill the frigate after you LOCK HIM... but now you have to wait for your reactivation time on your MWD to reset... THEN you have to motor toward your target again. All the while taking fire from your opponent... so even when you DO get into range, you have already been pounded on for enough time to render the fight effectively over.
Very good point Nemesor.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 -
[1432]
Originally by: Aya I see 2 good things coming from this nerf if it goes through
1. The people who whined about nanos will still get their asses kicked by the 04-05 people and realize its not the nano but the fact that they suck at this game which is causing them to die. 2. Hydra and Daisho will undock (instead of hiding in their stations)
Actually, thats not right at all:
1) The people who whined about nanos being overpowered will whine about something else being overpowered 2) Hydra and Daisho will still fail to undock, because at the end of the day they suck and always will.
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Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:43:00 -
[1433]
Originally by: Escobar Noreaga I love flying nano ships TBO, but even i must admit that im looking forward to the retuning of the game.
Doesnt really bother me much since i can fly every ship t1 and t2 up to and including battleships of everyrace, i will definatly be spending some time thinking up some new out of the box fittings.
Eve was getting a tad stale imho and this looks like a much needed breath of fresh air.
My thoughts exactly :) And oh, can't wait to try out my new lachesis with a faction scrambler and close range ranis for more excitement :>
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
Malena Panic
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:44:00 -
[1434]
Originally by: Nemesor You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him.
LOL! So this isn't a nano-nerf, it's a newb ship buff. Thanks for clearing that up. ... |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 -
[1435]
Don't know why everyone is whining about Scramblers. Seem to forget they only have 7.5km range - so unless you want to give up that 24k point...
Besides, I've seen maybe 3 Gallente recons since the Damp nerf, compared to about 200 Minmatar ones. Would definately be good for it.
And Afterburners might actually become useful. Imagine that ...
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 -
[1436]
Originally by: Malena Panic
LOL! So this isn't a nano-nerf, it's a newb ship buff. Thanks for clearing that up.
I used the Newb ship as an example of how ANY ship with two mids can remove one of the best close range combat ships in the game from a fight. Nice of you to notice.
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SebN
ShockTroopers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 -
[1437]
The one question that I would like to know the answer;
Does the reduction of the gang bonuses to 25.8% ONLY apply to the Rapid Deployment gang link or will it effect the other skirmish warfare gang links, the information was not particuly clear in the dev blog.
I can accept you changing the MWD mechanics in regards to warp scramblers but I have spent a lot of time and dedication on training Leadership skills and i would hate to have 3 modules "nerfed" instead of the one particular module that you consider to be an issue.
SebN
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Rhamnousia
Caldari Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:10:00 -
[1438]
Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
but don't you have to look at what really ruining the game? such as cyno jammer, blob warfare, capital infestation to name a few. Anything that revolve around a damn PoS.. or twenty.
Nano isn't "imbalance" at the moment. it's the inability to really stop it.
also, for the umpteenth time, nerfing isn't the answer. try boosting the other counterpart of nano. the stasis webifier. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor.
Forever Pelennor |
Robin Chuwan
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:13:00 -
[1439]
hmm as a pilot who nanos some of his ships, i cant really say this bothers me. just means i have to refit my ships.
though i am wondering about them scramblers
so they deactivate the targets MWD, scrambles people. But will it keep its 2 points? or will it lose a point, coz if it doesnt it will do 3 things.
1 scramble people with no warp stab 2 scramble people with 1 warp stab 3 deactivate MWD
??
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:14:00 -
[1440]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Thorradin
Heavy Assault Ships being turned into giant tanked interceptors for starters?
At the bargin price of only 6 billion isk
Vaga hit 7km/sec with T2 gear+polies easily enough. Most ceptors can't even reach that speed without rigs.
Nor can the vaga without rigs as you clearly stated.
So your problem is that the hac that is designed spoecifically to go fast...goes fast am i correct?.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:16:00 -
[1441]
Originally by: Ituralde Basically, you are saying that nanos are overpowered because they let you run away, yeah? Or am I missing something? Care to please elaborate?
If nanos ran you'd have a point, however nanos give raw superiority of the field, purely because someone had more isk than the other guy to spend on a borked ship setup type. If you want to run, and somehow can't in a ship that still moves several km/s and can warp out in a few seconds, it sounds like a personally issue.
I'm sayng a setup that completely dwarfs all others is overpowered. People like to throw ISK figures around ut putting several billion ISK into a non-nano setup makes others rich, rather than giving the nano's "Well I'll do whatever the hell I feel like because they lack the ability to plan a counter that far exceeds my effort to keep moving at breakneck speeds, doing whatever I want" status to them.
A single ship setup that can go on any ship, even ships designed to work entirely differently, allowing fleets of only that setup to be damn near unkillable, is broken. Remember when ECM was fit to every ship, even those not intended to be effective with it? Remember damps being the same way? Remember the results?
Your nanoboat will still be able to run from me if you choose to do so, as I'll be slower, but you will not also enjoy having a 'tank' that can negate firepower that can bring down capitals. If you want both, then go fly an inty.
The mods are being brought in line with the rest of the game, and having their pedestal taken away. Nano setups were a FOTM(Y), and have been long overdue for a fix, just like Javelin HAMs(nerf range if nothing else) and Precision heavy missiles(buff exp velocity from T1 stats), and other mods. Tracking disruptors still could use a little love as well imo, defenders should be changed to be alittle more useful, but not to the point that all missiles go the way of the Citadel torp when the target has smartbombs.
So keep in mind Ituralde, you'll still be able to run after this, but you won't be able to tank a fleet because they made the 'mistake' of not having several ships specifically to counter your setup on a ship to meant to use such setup, let alone the others in your gang with the setup.
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RuneTday
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:16:00 -
[1442]
Time to drop being a minmatar.. No Rapier, and no Vaga. Just getting to the point to use them. Might as well put them up for sale... Hail the BOB MAX BLOB !
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:16:00 -
[1443]
This nerf wasn't needed. Also, are we going to rebalance ships like the ishtar so that they don't suck without nanos? See, if there had been a viable alternative in the first place...
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Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:18:00 -
[1444]
Originally by: Rhamnousia Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
but don't you have to look at what really ruining the game? such as cyno jammer, blob warfare, capital infestation to name a few. Anything that revolve around a damn PoS.. or twenty.
Nano isn't "imbalance" at the moment. it's the inability to really stop it.
also, for the umpteenth time, nerfing isn't the answer. try boosting the other counterpart of nano. the stasis webifier.
Err, and what defence do the rapier and the arazu mostly use? speed, the pilgrim is about the only recon that can sucessfully tank it up and go up close and personal.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:18:00 -
[1445]
Originally by: Korinn Don't worry, I've unanchored all my poses in fountain and I'm cancelling my subscription as we speak
Your loss. People who don't throw a tantrum and quit will continue and be fine, just like with all the other 'wtf are you doing ccp' nerfs in EVE's history.
Assuming this hits TQ without any changes, but if there are none at all I'd be pretty amazed.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:18:00 -
[1446]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
That is not a complete list of counters
Nanogangs can be countered by: - Sniperfleet with support staying close together to make sure no stragglers get picked off and focusfiring on any Nano-HAC slowing down to fire (most nanoships cant hit anything unless they slow down a lot). - Fleets smart enough to shoot drones instead of Ishtars. - Fleets using enough blackbirds/rooks/falcons/scorpions - Fleets with a ton of interceptors that screen the rest of the fleet to keep nanoships away. - Fleet using logistics ships to keep alive (nano-HACs have pretty low DPS). - Fleets having so much support and ceptors on the gate that they can catch nanoships trying to get in system.
Lots of ways to counter nanos, but its not the fault of nanopilots if people don't learn the possibilities.
For small nano-gang vs. small non-nano-gang, my list IS the complete list of counters!
Your argument is why a numerically LARGE group (fleet) can counter nano-gangs. Of.c. they can! Essentially, you're arguing that just by fitting for nano, you should have a devastating advantage over other people, who don't fit particularly to counter that one play-style...
The nano group ALWAYS have the big advantage of being able to disengage fast (or not engage at all). This keeps their losses down, which is of.c. what makes it so attractive, but it is also the reason it is so unbalanced.
Take two similar sized groups (ne always fitted for nano). Several scenarios are possible: 1. Both group nano'ed. 2. One group nano, other fitted especially against nano. 3. One group nano, other fitted generally.
So, in #1, we have an equal fight. In case #2, the nano team will not engage as they see all the minnie recons. The non-nano team will be useless against every other similar sized group. In case #3, the non-nano team will loose.
So in essence, the only realistic counter to nano's for similar sized groups..... is nano'ing.... Otherwise you'll either not get fights (and'll die to anything else than nano's), or you'll die.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:19:00 -
[1447]
Edited by: Haakelen on 26/07/2008 00:19:22
Originally by: Rhamnousia Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
If you think that this nerf wasn't the result of people crying, you're an idiot.
If you think they haven't been and won't continue to cry about cloaks just as much as they did about HACs, you're an idiot.
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:21:00 -
[1448]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 26/07/2008 00:19:22
Originally by: Rhamnousia Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
If you think that this nerf wasn't the result of people crying, you're an idiot.
If you think they haven't been and won't continue to cry about cloaks just as much as they did about HACs, you're an idiot.
People cry alot about POS' and blobs... .
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:21:00 -
[1449]
the problem is that small gang/solo pvp needs fast ships, something you have a hope of excaping the blob with.
if you do this change, it will just become a case of who has the biggest gang.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:22:00 -
[1450]
But CCP apparently likes blobs, so there's nothing to worry about there.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:22:00 -
[1451]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 26/07/2008 00:19:22
Originally by: Rhamnousia Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
If you think that this nerf wasn't the result of people crying, you're an idiot.
If you think they haven't been and won't continue to cry about cloaks just as much as they did about HACs, you're an idiot.
Until the game has been nerfed so much that ppl can own all with passivly tanked drakes ppl will continue to cry for nerfs.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:23:00 -
[1452]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Kery Syander
Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users?
this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time.
Tell you what, fly 4km/s at a missile ship, then fly 4km/s at a gunboat, straight line both times.
You get back to me on which one blows your inty out of the sky and which one is still only doing 0.1 damage. Missiles have a higher threshold to work with, but it goes purely by target speed and nothing else when checking (and sig ofcourse).
And then try it with an inty circling your ship at 1km range while strafing you with his ACs. Guns won't hit due to the tracking, but missiles will when a ceptor is close because he needs to reduce speed to keep a small orbit. Missiles are great at short range and slower speeds, guns are better at idiots who fly at you with an MWD in a straight line. Any decent inty pilot will keep his transversal up vs a gunboat.
Its called a trade-off.
If an inty is 1km from me it's already webbed and disrupted so it's going to get blown away regardless of whether I'm using guns, missiles or drones.
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Kal Zaketh
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:23:00 -
[1453]
much neded change look forward to it
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:24:00 -
[1454]
Originally by: Haakelen But CCP apparently likes blobs, so there's nothing to worry about there.
If CCP would hate cloaks as much as you suggest, then they would'nt have removed the ability of Frozen Corpses or JetCans and Wrecks decloaking you .
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:24:00 -
[1455]
Originally by: Aya I see 2 good things coming from this nerf if it goes through
1. The people who whined about nanos will still get their asses kicked by the 04-05 people and realize its not the nano but the fact that they suck at this game which is causing them to die.
And the nano pilots that thought the ISK that allowed them to outrun all weapon types meant they were skilled, will get blown to hell. Honestly it's a win-win wouldn't you say?
The 'good' nano pilots will get wiped out, and the good nano pilots will survive, and some of each type may decide to use something else for a setup.
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:25:00 -
[1456]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Kerfira My post
That is not a complete list of counters
Nanogangs can be countered by: - Sniperfleet with support staying close together to make sure no stragglers get picked off and focusfiring on any Nano-HAC slowing down to fire (most nanoships cant hit anything unless they slow down a lot). - Fleets smart enough to shoot drones instead of Ishtars. - Fleets using enough blackbirds/rooks/falcons/scorpions - Fleets with a ton of interceptors that screen the rest of the fleet to keep nanoships away. - Fleet using logistics ships to keep alive (nano-HACs have pretty low DPS). - Fleets having so much support and ceptors on the gate that they can catch nanoships trying to get in system.
Lots of ways to counter nanos, but its not the fault of nanopilots if people don't learn the possibilities.
For small nano-gang vs. small non-nano-gang, my list IS the complete list of counters!
Your argument is why a numerically LARGE group (fleet) can counter nano-gangs. Of.c. they can! Essentially, you're arguing that just by fitting for nano, you should have a devastating advantage over other people, who don't fit particularly to counter that one play-style...
The nano group ALWAYS have the big advantage of being able to disengage fast (or not engage at all). This keeps their losses down, which is of.c. what makes it so attractive, but it is also the reason it is so unbalanced.
Take two similar sized groups (ne always fitted for nano). Several scenarios are possible: 1. Both group nano'ed. 2. One group nano, other fitted especially against nano. 3. One group nano, other fitted generally.
So, in #1, we have an equal fight. In case #2, the nano team will not engage as they see all the minnie recons. The non-nano team will be useless against every other similar sized group. In case #3, the non-nano team will loose.
So in essence, the only realistic counter to nano's for similar sized groups..... is nano'ing.... Otherwise you'll either not get fights (and'll die to anything else than nano's), or you'll die.
Seriously, do you even play this game? Of course a nano gang will beat a gang not meant to take out nanos. Fights shouldn't be even or fair just because you weren't prepared for the unexpected. That's the point of intel. If you can't take a nano gang then don't engage. Same thing if you can't take a BS gang.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:25:00 -
[1457]
Originally by: Xyleya
Originally by: Haakelen But CCP apparently likes blobs, so there's nothing to worry about there.
If CCP would hate cloaks as much as you suggest, then they would'nt have removed the ability of Frozen Corpses or JetCans and Wrecks decloaking you
Give it a few months. Since the CCP way to 'fix' things is to silently implement a set of widespread, sweeping, shortsighted changes that attack the results of problems, not the problems themselves, for all you or I know, there's already a Cloak nerf in the working that just hasn't been publicized yet.
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GreGh Rakrot
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:27:00 -
[1458]
so today we had 3 man nano gang roaming, we pewpew some stuff on gates then just when it dies gate flashes few times and local goes up 10 or so, thorax uncloaks we start hurting him then cyno pops! and 3 carriers jump in, on our 3 man gang, with rest of their gang rolling in... we get chased for few jumps and manage to get rid of them thanks to our speed ofc
now imagine 3 man bs/bc gang roaming like that...
ccp, this blanket style changes that you came up on 5h brain-storming session is overdoing it yes, balance speed, np with that, but there are less complicated core game changing ways of doing that like: - balancing polys (dont know why this hasnt been done next day after rigs were introduced) - stack penalty for all speed mods/rigs combined (as suggested) - simply reducing MWD speed boost - adding more counters like fixing bonuses on lachesis/arazu so they can properly damp
game has changed so much and is so complicated that no radical changes should be applied but instead slow step-by-step balancing
if you go on with this changes ...no i wont quit lol, ill just find next type of roaming gangs that will probably soon become next subject to endless cries and whines on this forums ...its not like i would do that the first time, think its more like the 4th time ^^ ...and round and round we go |
Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:28:00 -
[1459]
Are you still going to allow web stacking? Kind of makes the whole web nerf pointless if you allow them to continue stacking.
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Dr Decay
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:31:00 -
[1460]
Edited by: Dr Decay on 26/07/2008 00:31:05
Originally by: Haakelen Give it a few months. Since the CCP way to 'fix' things is to silently implement a set of widespread, sweeping, shortsighted changes that attack the results of problems, not the problems themselves, for all you or I know, there's already a Cloak nerf in the working that just hasn't been publicized yet.
Cloak nerf? Sweet about time.
As far as the nano nerf goes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8fWUUXeKM
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Sid Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:32:00 -
[1461]
Originally by: Shinigami Are you still going to allow web stacking? Kind of makes the whole web nerf pointless if you allow them to continue stacking.
This.
The effect on a ship should be the same wether one ship with 1 web is webbing it, or 20 ships with 2 webs each. Otherwise every 20man gatecamp is just going to have 40 webbers
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Deitre Cibrus
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1462]
-----------
Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
What is this sig missing? Pretty colours? -Conuion Not true! Has plenty -Deitre
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1463]
Originally by: GreGh Rakrot so today we had 3 man nano gang roaming, we pewpew some stuff on gates then just when it dies gate flashes few times and local goes up 10 or so, thorax uncloaks we start hurting him then cyno pops! and 3 carriers jump in, on our 3 man gang, with rest of their gang rolling in... we get chased for few jumps and manage to get rid of them thanks to our speed ofc
now imagine 3 man bs/bc gang roaming like that...
ccp, this blanket style changes that you came up on 5h brain-storming session is overdoing it yes, balance speed, np with that, but there are less complicated core game changing ways of doing that like: - balancing polys (dont know why this hasnt been done next day after rigs were introduced) - stack penalty for all speed mods/rigs combined (as suggested) - simply reducing MWD speed boost - adding more counters like fixing bonuses on lachesis/arazu so they can properly damp
game has changed so much and is so complicated that no radical changes should be applied but instead slow step-by-step balancing
if you go on with this changes ...no i wont quit lol, ill just find next type of roaming gangs that will probably soon become next subject to endless cries and whines on this forums ...its not like i would do that the first time, think its more like the 4th time ^^ ...and round and round we go
soooo, omg have a scout or bail earlier?
It's the Economy Stupid |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1464]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean At the bargin price of only 6 billion isk and it can all be flushed down the drain by a rapier, huggin or nuet ship.
Nano give players great enjoyment and that is soon to be removed for a nerf that will turn gang fighting into mini blob fights.
When other ship types are equally unkillable and the costs aren't due to a fluctuating player market you'll have an argument. Put that 6 billion ISK in to a tank on a BS and tell me what happens to the ship.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1465]
I disagree with the dev blog, but that's not the point. I disagree even more with the way this shit always plays out.
CCP doesn't make an ordered, (relatively) manageable '<Topic>: What of it' Thread and ask for ideas and post feedback and introduce huge things a little bit at a time to see the result. They (apparently) read whine threads and hide behind the idea of this CSM bullshit and then release all of it at once to the predictable response by the community. It's treated with a complete lack of understanding, which is the problem here, not just the changes. Because they'll keep doing it, and they'll keep ****ing it up.
This is one more step towards 'You get into a ship. You fire a weapon at another ship. It takes damage.', where everything might be named differently and look different but acts the same. You already have unskilled groups (see also Caldari FW militia) deploying homogenous fleets. That is the result of things like this, not 'diversity'. But you don't care, CCP. So whatever.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1466]
Originally by: Kal Zaketh much neded change look forward to it
- Kal Zaketh, member, Republic Military School, 4 Months and 21 Days. ---
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:34:00 -
[1467]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Kerfira Take two similar sized groups (ne always fitted for nano). Several scenarios are possible: 1. Both group nano'ed. 2. One group nano, other fitted especially against nano. 3. One group nano, other fitted generally.
So, in #1, we have an equal fight. In case #2, the nano team will not engage as they see all the minnie recons. The non-nano team will be useless against every other similar sized group. In case #3, the non-nano team will loose.
So in essence, the only realistic counter to nano's for similar sized groups..... is nano'ing.... Otherwise you'll either not get fights (and'll die to anything else than nano's), or you'll die.
Seriously, do you even play this game? Of course a nano gang will beat a gang not meant to take out nanos. Fights shouldn't be even or fair just because you weren't prepared for the unexpected. That's the point of intel. If you can't take a nano gang then don't engage. Same thing if you can't take a BS gang.
And YOU are seriously missing the point. If one fit make it impossible for others to effectively counter it (unless they use the same), then that fit is simply too good! And don't wave the discredited rapier/huginn argument! Saying "The counter is to have a majority of your ships being very specialised ones that are useless against everything else!" doesn't work.
But in essence, the argument FOR a nerf is made by nano'ing having SHOWN (in practice) to have no effective counter (no matter how much theory-crafting the nano-USERS do), and by how much nano'ing has taken over small-gang warfare. No other proof is needed really.
Anyone who have fought nano-gangs know so (which is why we support this), and all nano-users ALSO know this thus the desperate fight in this thread not to loose their I-Win button!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:37:00 -
[1468]
Originally by: Xyleya First of all, as there were calculated and written before, ships like a Vagabond or any Interceptor will still go easily 4+ km/sec without rigs or Snake-Sets, even without Gang-Boni!
i think u must have missed the dev post were he said his vaga with high grade snakes, t2 rigs and 2x overdrive t2 went just a bit over 4k
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Demagnon
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:37:00 -
[1469]
This proposition appears to change too much and does so too harshly, in too short a time span. Whether or not nano-gang ships need to be curbed is irrelevant, these are umbrella changes which will affect more than planned; not to mention that you are affecting months worth of skill planning all at once. You can argue that nothing will be affected, but there is more to a game than pure number balancing.
It just feels wrong. If change is to be effected this is not the way to do it, and everyone involved with these changes should take a step back. At least that's my two cents.
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Sid Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:38:00 -
[1470]
Originally by: Rhamnousia Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships.
(until those get nerfed)
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:38:00 -
[1471]
Originally by: Nemesor Edited by: Nemesor on 26/07/2008 00:05:59
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Basically you are fully twisting my argument because you don't want to define that ship as a tackler?
I know it is a tackler... BUT... should you ever jump in and say "oh noes. My target has a Velator wingman! I shouldn't engage."
I wonder what happens to a Velator that gets a Deimos's drones turned on it.
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Carnivorous Panda
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:39:00 -
[1472]
Originally by: Ksea Vholdor
Originally by: Ephemeron I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say
1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. [...]
now here is a guy who know what he's talking about. him for a developer CCP, not those failed pvp caldari pilots
I speak from the point of view of an INexperienced fighter that flies cheap frigates and destroyers. I can say this much about MWDs and afterburners:
I have flown with some faction warfare fleets. I was always told by the more experienced pilots, "If you don't have a MWD you aren't going to do any good, so until you can fit one, don't bother with PvP."
Well, against their words of wisdom, I went along anyways - and they were completely right. Being completely ineffective in a fight because I don't have a MWD is pretty frustrating, to say the least. MWD should be an option - not mandatory.
I have heard people on the forums say things like, "Don't change my style of play! That's not fair!" Well, conversely, forcing people into a particular style of play is just as bad.
I like the fact that CCP is trying to make afterburners a viable alternative again. Not sure if this is enough, but it is certainly something.
As for the whole nano-ship nerf: I agree with Ephemeron. Nerfs in general are bad. People end up feeling cheated. By offering more tools with which to handle the nano ships then more people would be happy all around. Perhaps the nano-pilots would feel less slighted and take the changes to be a challenge instead of an attack on their style of play.
But then again, maybe a nerf is the best way to go in this case. I'm not going to claim to be well versed in this kind of thing, because I'm not. All I can hope for is a better Eve for all.
Several people have mentioned that the test server isn't a good way of testing these changes, because not enough people use the test server.
...Well, stop whining, get off your butts, and jump on the test server. Maybe these changes won't be nearly as bad as you think - or perhaps you will find some more glaring issues. CCP is the only company I know of that lets us test changes and give feedback before things go live. So take advantage of it.
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Drakken Khan
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:40:00 -
[1473]
This is a bit off subject, but it does deal with the devblog in a way. To quote Nozh:
We are fully aware that such complex changes can have unforeseen results, especially since such an agglomeration of them is difficult to test without the participation of a large number of players. Thus, we urge you to log onto Singularity (our test server) this Monday, July 28TH to give them a spin and spare us no feedback or thoughts on these issues. We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
My point is, how about making the test server EASILY accessible by everyone. I would love to be able to get on there without having to spend hours deleting, downloading, patching, etc every time I want to test something. I am sure if you fixed the way your test server worked you would have ALOT more people helping out with testing the fixes.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:41:00 -
[1474]
Originally by: Shinigami Are you still going to allow web stacking? Kind of makes the whole web nerf pointless if you allow them to continue stacking.
Not really. If you count in the effect of the scrambler 'web' effect (turning off MWD), you get figures more or less like today. 1 web + scrambler will be 92+% speed decrease for an MWD ship. 2 web + scrambler will be 97+% speed decrease for an MWD ship.
For non-MWD ships who fit an AB, they might actually be able to escape the 60% web. Something they haven't got a chance of with the 90%'ers.
In effect, they're implementing a (limited) 'counter' to webs in the form of the AB.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Dust Walk
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:41:00 -
[1475]
Can we assume PL is going to dissolve now?
-- OMG NERF ME! |
Nexus Kinnon
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:42:00 -
[1476]
Edited by: Nexus Kinnon on 26/07/2008 00:44:51 postin' to check my new sig.
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus
quotin' some of my earlier work, hit me up if you want a sig yo.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:42:00 -
[1477]
There's been mentions of ways to counter nano's that don't require such drastic changes such as web falloff for let's say 10km and increasing the speed of Afterburners So that people may begin to think well the MWD has the cap penalty and the sig radius penalty but the AB doesn't, do I want to lose this much speed for that instead of like 70% of the speed . And for your little scram thing if you really have to implement something about scrams and MWD's maybe make it so the more points (after count Warp Core Stabilizers) on the ship the more cap the MWD uses. -------- Ohh and btw, China. |
Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:43:00 -
[1478]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Xyleya First of all, as there were calculated and written before, ships like a Vagabond or any Interceptor will still go easily 4+ km/sec without rigs or Snake-Sets, even without Gang-Boni!
i think u must have missed the dev post were he said his vaga with high grade snakes, t2 rigs and 2x overdrive t2 went just a bit over 4k
Use the new numbers and start calculating with a pocket-calculator. I've done it myself, after Zoraya Rouge did it in her post, and she's actually spot on.
Based on the new numbers given, a Vagabond with T2 MWD, 3x OD II and cheap Hardwirings will do 4.2 km/sec. No Snakes, no claymore, no gang-boni taken into account.
The Dev must have done something tottaly wrong in his calculations, or there's simply more done to ships and modules they're not telling us yet. .
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:43:00 -
[1479]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Ituralde Basically, you are saying that nanos are overpowered because they let you run away, yeah? Or am I missing something? Care to please elaborate?
If nanos ran you'd have a point, however nanos give raw superiority of the field, purely because someone had more isk than the other guy to spend on a borked ship setup type. If you want to run, and somehow can't in a ship that still moves several km/s and can warp out in a few seconds, it sounds like a personally issue.
I'm sayng a setup that completely dwarfs all others is overpowered. People like to throw ISK figures around ut putting several billion ISK into a non-nano setup makes others rich, rather than giving the nano's "Well I'll do whatever the hell I feel like because they lack the ability to plan a counter that far exceeds my effort to keep moving at breakneck speeds, doing whatever I want" status to them.
A single ship setup that can go on any ship, even ships designed to work entirely differently, allowing fleets of only that setup to be damn near unkillable, is broken. Remember when ECM was fit to every ship, even those not intended to be effective with it? Remember damps being the same way? Remember the results?
Your nanoboat will still be able to run from me if you choose to do so, as I'll be slower, but you will not also enjoy having a 'tank' that can negate firepower that can bring down capitals. If you want both, then go fly an inty.
The mods are being brought in line with the rest of the game, and having their pedestal taken away. Nano setups were a FOTM(Y), and have been long overdue for a fix, just like Javelin HAMs(nerf range if nothing else) and Precision heavy missiles(buff exp velocity from T1 stats), and other mods. Tracking disruptors still could use a little love as well imo, defenders should be changed to be alittle more useful, but not to the point that all missiles go the way of the Citadel torp when the target has smartbombs.
So keep in mind Ituralde, you'll still be able to run after this, but you won't be able to tank a fleet because they made the 'mistake' of not having several ships specifically to counter your setup on a ship to meant to use such setup, let alone the others in your gang with the setup.
If you are in a fleet with zero electronic warfare, no medium pulses or autocannons, no light missiles, no neutralizers, very few light drones, no interceptors or no means to support them, then I'd be very surprised. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Nyarlothotep
The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:44:00 -
[1480]
Edited by: Nyarlothotep on 26/07/2008 00:44:42 So how would scripts work for the web/scram/disrupt?
Stasis Webifier = - base 60% to speed, 15km range 1. Speed Control: +25% to speed reduction (75%), -50% range (7.5km) 2. Reaching Throttle: -25% to speed reduction (45%), +50% range (22.5km)
Why not combine Warp Scram/Disrupt to one module?
Warp Disruptor = -1 Warp Str, Range 20km, reduce target MWD bonus by 50% (250% velocity bonus for T1 MWD, instead 500%) 1. Engine Distortion: Deactivate MWD, -50% Range (10km), no penalty to Warp Str 2. Gravitic Anamoly: -2 Warp Str, +50% Range (30km), no penalty to MWD
But need to bring back +2 to Warp Str for T2 Warp Core Stabilizers.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:45:00 -
[1481]
Originally by: Ituralde
If you are in a fleet with zero electronic warfare, no medium pulses or autocannons, no light missiles, no neutralizers, very few light drones, no interceptors or no means to support them, then I'd be very surprised.
He's in the Caldari Militia.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:45:00 -
[1482]
Originally by: Haakelen If you think that this nerf wasn't the result of people crying, you're an idiot.
Originally by: From the blog itself If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely.
Clearly they only catered to the whiners.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:46:00 -
[1483]
What I don't get is why blasterboaters cry? Before this you get within 13 km and get 90% webbed. After this you get within 7.5( or 15?) and get mwd shut off and then 60% webbed, if mwd gave 500% velocity then result is like 92% webbing. Where's the approach nerf? Increased difficulty of tracking enemy with AB only affects all kinds of guns, and insufficient signature size decreases damage of missiles. And to track target easier you need to web and paint it. Come to think of it, it's minmatar stealth boost - both their ewars become required and as they have highest base speed they benefit from AB more then anyone.
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:46:00 -
[1484]
Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 00:48:18
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Kerfira Take two similar sized groups (ne always fitted for nano). Several scenarios are possible: 1. Both group nano'ed. 2. One group nano, other fitted especially against nano. 3. One group nano, other fitted generally.
So, in #1, we have an equal fight. In case #2, the nano team will not engage as they see all the minnie recons. The non-nano team will be useless against every other similar sized group. In case #3, the non-nano team will loose.
So in essence, the only realistic counter to nano's for similar sized groups..... is nano'ing.... Otherwise you'll either not get fights (and'll die to anything else than nano's), or you'll die.
Seriously, do you even play this game? Of course a nano gang will beat a gang not meant to take out nanos. Fights shouldn't be even or fair just because you weren't prepared for the unexpected. That's the point of intel. If you can't take a nano gang then don't engage. Same thing if you can't take a BS gang.
And YOU are seriously missing the point. If one fit make it impossible for others to effectively counter it (unless they use the same), then that fit is simply too good! And don't wave the discredited rapier/huginn argument! Saying "The counter is to have a majority of your ships being very specialised ones that are useless against everything else!" doesn't work.
But in essence, the argument FOR a nerf is made by nano'ing having SHOWN (in practice) to have no effective counter (no matter how much theory-crafting the nano-USERS do), and by how much nano'ing has taken over small-gang warfare. No other proof is needed really.
Anyone who have fought nano-gangs know so (which is why we support this), and all nano-users ALSO know this thus the desperate fight in this thread not to loose their I-Win button!
Yes, because we all know the insane dps Nano ships do. With your logic you would nerf every aspect of the game because you have no way to counter it. You can counter nanos. Try fitting a BS group with some Heavy Neuts. Or, face the grim reality of getting a Rapier/Huginn in your group. I would hardly say a ship doing 4-5km/s is too good of a fit. I can understand ships that are moving at 10km/s that really seem too big, but still, learn to play if you can't kill/counter nanos.
If you can't cut it then go back to WoW. People like you who complain about unfair advantages ruin this game. Use your head next time you decide to engage a gang you know you have no way to counter ffs.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:48:00 -
[1485]
I've had a good read of the blog and I think most of the ideas are really good. There is one proposition that was made, that I would strongly suggest doesn't go ahead - changing the X-instinct boosters to giving sig-radius changes instead of speed bonuses.
The reasoning for this is that if they preserve their bonus, interest in the new booster industry increases, and gas mining becomes a much more attractive profession - given how much effort goes into booster production I'd think keeping it attractive is important.
San Matari Official forums |
Tardar Muller
Spitzerr's Pirate School Yarr
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:51:00 -
[1486]
This is such a stupid nerf
You can already counter nano ships enough imho.
Pathetic that ppl cannot see that..
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Thread does not deliver
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:51:00 -
[1487]
Ohh and I forgot, who the hell did the calculations of drugs and overheating? The drugs are expensive, can have side effects and are not to common. Overheating cause the MWD to burn out in 4 cycles if your lucky 2 if you're not. Also not everyone and their dog use billions of isk worth in snake implants and hardwirings because of exactly that. And finally there aren't any officer mods that will fit on nano HAC's unless you go oversized which then you can't do anything other than tackle. Nano HACs and Inties are probably your main gripe because a nano BS still turns like a ******ed kid on a motorcycle so oversized officer mods won't affect them so great. -------- Ohh and btw, China. |
Cornullus Rage
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:52:00 -
[1488]
Why not boost the web? It just seems to me that if you have a mod that makes a ship go fast, the counter would be a mod to slow them down. That being said, Nano's have been breaking EVE for a long time, and then when there was a web nerf (10 seconds for full effect.) it mad a web almost useless. The way its suggested, webs will just take up a slot.
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:54:00 -
[1489]
Finally the nano exploiting is being looked at. People who really want to keep doing small scale guerilla will go back to the long lost way of blasterthrons that have been braving the skies for years before nanoing was invented.
Altho, I dont really understand the change to the high grade snake set. Instead of 16% for lg set it should be more like 10% to be more inline with post nerf overdrive injector. If you think about it - lg crystal set is about as good as t2 amp (one mid slot) so lg snake should be as good (or just slightly better) as t2 low slot speed mod.
- Gob
P.S.: CCP, forum counterwhining has already stopped you from destroying carriers dont let it happen again drop the changed on TQ right away before its too late!!
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Terianna Eri Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:54:00 -
[1490]
I like a lot of it, but... reactivation delay on microwarpdrives?
Seems kind of silly, doesn't it? Especially for inty v. inty fights where one of them is trying to avoid getting webbed - crusader v. taranis for example
taranis can sit basically still until the crusader's mwd cycles, overheat web and mwd, boom
is this intentional?
Also what about ships that try to permarun MWDs? I was unaware that this particular action is frowned upon.
Finally please increase the speed boost of ABs, such that if you overhead an AB you have a decent shot at burning back to a gate if you're in a smallish ( < BC ) ship. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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GreGh Rakrot
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.07.26 00:59:00 -
[1491]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: GreGh Rakrot so today we had 3 man nano gang roaming, we pewpew some stuff on gates then just when it dies gate flashes few times and local goes up 10 or so, thorax uncloaks we start hurting him then cyno pops! and 3 carriers jump in, on our 3 man gang, with rest of their gang rolling in... we get chased for few jumps and manage to get rid of them thanks to our speed ofc
now imagine 3 man bs/bc gang roaming like that...
ccp, this blanket style changes that you came up on 5h brain-storming session is overdoing it yes, balance speed, np with that, but there are less complicated core game changing ways of doing that like: - balancing polys (dont know why this hasnt been done next day after rigs were introduced) - stack penalty for all speed mods/rigs combined (as suggested) - simply reducing MWD speed boost - adding more counters like fixing bonuses on lachesis/arazu so they can properly damp
game has changed so much and is so complicated that no radical changes should be applied but instead slow step-by-step balancing
if you go on with this changes ...no i wont quit lol, ill just find next type of roaming gangs that will probably soon become next subject to endless cries and whines on this forums ...its not like i would do that the first time, think its more like the 4th time ^^ ...and round and round we go
soooo, omg have a scout or bail earlier?
lol yaay is that all you can reply with, go and come back with something better worthy of a serious answer
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Kira Pasisson
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:01:00 -
[1492]
i can just agree with all those posters before.... who will benefit from this? isk farmers and pvp noobs who are unable to create an effective counter gang.... small gang warfare will be extremely nerfed by this (it is already in a bad state...) the blob will be the only way left....great.... i mean making afterburners senseful (maybe it would have been enough to fix some grid probs of caldari :P) ok..... but nerfing a whole playstyle just cause of the whining of those ppl who are not participating in making eve special...omg..... i mean rapier, huginn, ishtar, vaga, curse, (sacrilege) will get obsolete...especially the ishtar wont have any value afterwards....what are u thinking?
tbth this is the most ridiculous nerf i have ever seen in eve or heard of....this is not balancing this makes eve boring, slow, noobish....i do totally agree with the p-l guy who said that we will soon see the age of the drake gangs....omg....
i am sure eve will suffer under this, if you are really gonna push it through, and u will loose many of those players who know what to do in pvp.....(as nanoing requires skillllllll)....so if u dont care about this, then it will be only the money that keeps eve running in the future....great
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Kilrex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:03:00 -
[1493]
Originally by: Nyarlothotep Edited by: Nyarlothotep on 26/07/2008 00:44:42 So how would scripts work for the web/scram/disrupt?
Stasis Webifier = - base 60% to speed, 15km range 1. Speed Control: +25% to speed reduction (75%), -50% range (7.5km) 2. Reaching Throttle: -25% to speed reduction (45%), +50% range (22.5km)
Why not combine Warp Scram/Disrupt to one module?
Warp Disruptor = -1 Warp Str, Range 20km, reduce target MWD bonus by 50% (250% velocity bonus for T1 MWD, instead 500%) 1. Engine Distortion: Deactivate MWD, -50% Range (10km), no penalty to Warp Str 2. Gravitic Anamoly: -2 Warp Str, +50% Range (30km), no penalty to MWD
But need to bring back +2 to Warp Str for T2 Warp Core Stabilizers.
Why not add an inertial/agility penalty? I seem to recall hearning about such before. Or give skills that affect the web str? Or the range of the web and warp s/d? Base it off Propulsion Jamming. The other EW skills have a basic skill for cap use and then a secondary that increases effectiveness. Also let Long Distance Jamming affect the web and warp s/d ranges.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:06:00 -
[1494]
If I scream bloody murder can I get my money back?
First off, I LOVE the idea of rebalancing the ship classes.
After that, NO NO NO.
MWD being killed by warp scrams will effectively END nano as we know it.
AB do not work for combat because WEBIFIERS, even if they are reduced in effectiveness, are not right.
MAKE THE DAMN WEBS SIG RADIUS BASED AND REBALANCE THE CLASS SPEEDS.
That is all that needs to be done! THAT'S IT! Your signature needs to be revised. signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to EVE Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe
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Cloue
Gallente Stripping Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:07:00 -
[1495]
NERF NERF NERF NERF
Instead of nerfing stuff all the time why not boost the ships/guns etc that are lacking?
Just thrown it out there. ---------------------------------------------- 8 out of 10 Owners who Expressed a Preference said Their Cats Preferred Gallente Stripping Agency. |
Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:12:00 -
[1496]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Yes, because we all know the insane dps Nano ships do. With your logic you would nerf every aspect of the game because you have no way to counter it. You can counter nanos. Try fitting a BS group with some Heavy Neuts. Or, face the grim reality of getting a Rapier/Huginn in your group. I would hardly say a ship doing 4-5km/s is too good of a fit. I can understand ships that are moving at 10km/s that really seem too big, but still, learn to play if you can't kill/counter nanos.
Your argument is as flawed as Malachon's. You're both arguing that the counter to nano's is bigger groups of bigger ships. Doesn't work that way.
Compare two similar sized groups. If one group fitted in a particular way will always do better than the other unless it is fitted the same way, then I think it fairly easy to point out that something is wrong! In this case, nanos!
The Huginn/Rapier argument is null and void! Just as it should not be a de-facto requirement to mount MWD's, neither should it be a de-facto requirement for all small gangs to have several of these (one'll not be enough) to have any chance against similar sized nano-gangs. These ships are not useful against anything else, whereas nano's are useful against anything BUT them. Clear disproportion there which needs to be adressed (which CCP seem to be doing).
PS: I've never played WoW. However, it is probably something you would like. I mean, having a for-sure way of winning (nanos) is like having finally grinded yourself to that uber-whatever-they-call-it-kill-em-all fit. You and your ilk are actually the ones who oppose diversity in the game by advocating a fit that makes all others ineffective.
PPS: Time for bed....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Marco Ragnos
Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:18:00 -
[1497]
overcomplicated way of dealing with the problems...
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:18:00 -
[1498]
Sorry do we not pay for this game?
So should we as the paying customer not decide how we play the game?
Why not simply but it to a vote or a poll to your paying customers and get an idea of what the majority would like to see happen?
Is that too much to ask?
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:18:00 -
[1499]
Originally by: Cloue NERF NERF NERF NERF
Instead of nerfing stuff all the time why not boost the ships/guns etc that are lacking?
Just thrown it out there.
If they did it that way, soon we'll all be going in ships at 20km/s, having 2 billion HP, doing 500000 dps/gun etc.
Boosts are usually done as part of adding new features. Nerfs are done to adjust them and the rest of the game so they fit well together.
New stuff was added (T2 mods, rigs) making things better. It broke speed though, so now it has to be balanced.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:21:00 -
[1500]
Originally by: Blue Sensation Sorry do we not pay for this game?
So should we as the paying customer not decide how we play the game?
Why not simply but it to a vote or a poll to your paying customers and get an idea of what the majority would like to see happen?
Is that too much to ask?
Actually it is. The players are the WORST people to decide how to balance a game.
I bet if we put it to a vote, the majority of players (empire dwellers) would vote that CONCORD should also be active in low-sec and 0.0......
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mike C
Caldari NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:23:00 -
[1501]
I know that I sometimes fit Nanofiber Internal Structure II's when transporting battleships through Jump Bridges, which decreases Liquid Ozone a little bit, which helps when going through 5 bridges over 24 LY. ________________________________________
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Deitre Cibrus
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:24:00 -
[1502]
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon Edited by: Nexus Kinnon on 26/07/2008 00:44:51 postin' to check my new sig.
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus
quotin' some of my earlier work, hit me up if you want a sig yo.
Quoting this -----------
Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
What is this sig missing? Pretty colours? -Conuion Not true! Has plenty -Deitre
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:25:00 -
[1503]
Originally by: Blue Sensation Sorry do we not pay for this game?
So should we as the paying customer not decide how we play the game?
Why not simply but it to a vote or a poll to your paying customers and get an idea of what the majority would like to see happen?
Is that too much to ask?
Actually, yes, it is too much to ask. That would be an incredibly stupid way to run your development company. The CSP on the other hand is a great addition; interaction and feedback with your players is very important, but handing them the keys is lunacy.
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Taladool
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:26:00 -
[1504]
WOOT, Im going to go buy a domi warp scram, and a keres, and turn off ppls MWD's at 20km :)
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:27:00 -
[1505]
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Blue Sensation Sorry do we not pay for this game?
So should we as the paying customer not decide how we play the game?
Why not simply but it to a vote or a poll to your paying customers and get an idea of what the majority would like to see happen?
Is that too much to ask?
Actually, yes, it is too much to ask. That would be an incredibly stupid way to run your development company. The CSP on the other hand is a great addition; interaction and feedback with your players is very important, but handing them the keys is lunacy.
I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweek the nerf abit to make the majority happier.
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ADR1AN
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:29:00 -
[1506]
Originally by: burek
On a separate point, a game in which things take considerable time to achieve, moving goalposts so drastically as proposed is unacceptable.
Exactly this. 1st rule of any science is to change one variable at a time. Throwing everything into the melting pot in one go will prevent anyone from understanding what the game has become. Sure, it will mix things up a little, but when someone has spent 6-9 months (or ú60-ú90 if you want to look at it that way) specialising in something to then have it radically redesigned takes away any satisfaction that can be gained from the time sink that is Eve. Stability is crucial to make people to want to carry on paying to wait for skills to train so they can master the ships they enjoy flying regularly - once this is gone, there is no point in making any skill plan longer than 2 months.
I play with nano ships, I fully understand their strengths and weaknesses, and I can clearly see that changes are required to modify top end speeds in certain ships. Anyone who has ever played with an overpowered ship knows that they are using one, and that it will get a whack from the nerf bat at some point (examples of this in the past are ECMing Nossing Domi, Damping Rapier, Stabbed Vagas, iStabbed Crows, iStabbed Phoons/Domis). However these were typically unique cases of select ships exploiting unbalanced modules / game features, and the fix was to subtly (depending on viewpoint) make small changes to bring things back in line. However the list of proposed changes here: scrams, mwd's, speed reduction, web changes and whatever else gets put in the mixer will clearly affect virtually every ship in game from Blaster boats to Rapiers, to Interceptors to Battleships as well as having some very strange effects on T1 cruiser combat.
Not only this - but even the announcement of "brainstorming" changes is already impacting the market on TQ devaluing items that people may have spent months saving for. I have no objection to change, but please, please keep it to small tweaks, see how things level out, then make another tweak if needed. What you (CCP) are currently proposing is clumsy and I seriously doubt that the effects will be seen by testing on SiSi alone.
When I read dev blogs like this I don't throw my toys out the cot or threaten to quit, all I do is sell most ships, set a long skill and then forget about the game for a month or so until things level out - I can come back and decide what is going to stay stable for longest and then spec in that. It's a real shame it has to be this way. I'll try and get on SiSi on Monday however I would suggest you record stats of who logs into SiSi so you can actually see what % of the playerbase is testing these changes, because I suspect that the vast majority will not test these changes until they hit TQ - when it will likely be too late.
Quote: Without accepting the fact that everything changes, we cannot find perfect composure. But unfortunately, although it is true, it is difficult for us to accept it. Because we cannot accept the truth of transience, we suffer. ~Shunryu Suzuki
When you are through changing, you are through
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:30:00 -
[1507]
Edited by: Kerfira on 26/07/2008 01:35:15
Originally by: Blue Sensation I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweak the nerf abit to make the majority vocal minority happier.
Corrected it for you...... And no, if a certain balance adjustment is the right one (decided by the game designers), it shouldn't be changed to satisfy players.
They should of.c. get input from players (hence this thread), but after that is done, they decide what to do, not the players. They did this for the 1st proposed carrier nerf, then changed their position as players (overwhelmingly) pointed out why it was broken. If any good arguments are made against these proposed changes, I'm sure they'll do so here. Until now though, I haven't seen any other counter-arguments except "Whaaaa, don't take our I-Win button away!"....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:31:00 -
[1508]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blue Sensation I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweak the nerf abit to make the majority vocal minority happier.
Corrected it for you......
Well if someone doesnt want to speak up about how the game will be changed that is there own fault
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Threeps
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:36:00 -
[1509]
Its About TIME CCP is on the right track to fixing this !
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:37:00 -
[1510]
Originally by: Blue Sensation
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blue Sensation I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweak the nerf abit to make the majority vocal minority happier.
Corrected it for you......
Well if someone doesnt want to speak up about how the game will be changed that is there own fault
90% of people happy with something will not voice their opinion. 90% of people not happy with something will voice their opinion.
That doesn't mean the unhappy people are right....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:41:00 -
[1511]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 26/07/2008 01:35:15
Originally by: Blue Sensation I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweak the nerf abit to make the majority vocal minority happier.
Corrected it for you...... And no, if a certain balance adjustment is the right one (decided by the game designers), it shouldn't be changed to satisfy players.
They should of.c. get input from players (hence this thread), but after that is done, they decide what to do, not the players. They did this for the 1st proposed carrier nerf, then changed their position as players (overwhelmingly) pointed out why it was broken. If any good arguments are made against these proposed changes, I'm sure they'll do so here. Until now though, I haven't seen any other counter-arguments except "Whaaaa, don't take our I-Win button away!"....
There is always going to be an I win button there always has been an I win Button, they keep nerfing stuff to prevent it but they are simply going around in a endless circle, unless they make all ships the same then people could only complain about others having more SP then them blah blah sigh whats the point....
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RafRam
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:42:00 -
[1512]
"If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds." Well, you just have to change your special high-speed missile in very-special-very-highest-boosted-speed-missiles&drones and leave the ships and mods as they are currently !
Instead to bother players trying to change things of 5+ years old that are the same for everybody you should try to think how to fight more the 50 players in the same system without the lag 6+ years old.
Good luck and fly safe
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:44:00 -
[1513]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blue Sensation
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blue Sensation I said get an idea of what they want to see happen not enforce it, but simply tweak the nerf abit to make the majority vocal minority happier.
Corrected it for you......
Well if someone doesnt want to speak up about how the game will be changed that is there own fault
90% of people happy with something will not voice their opinion. 90% of people not happy with something will voice their opinion.
That doesn't mean the unhappy people are right....
That would make things Balanced no?
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Destoration
Amarr Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:45:00 -
[1514]
Originally by: Stavros ABOUT TIME TOO! NERF THOSE NANOS!
quotin dis because he's right!
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War Bear
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:47:00 -
[1515]
Well I haven't been this ticked off about EVE since the Carrier debacle last year with Zulupark. Let's start shall we?
- Decrease in interdictors and heavy assault ships. They've already gotten hit hard once before. Even a small change now is just adding to the pile. Knock it off already. They're glass cannons as it is and easily taken out .. at least the Matari ones are.
- Faction battleship speed nerfs. Most of the monsters I see have a huge pile of isk dumped into them. Why should they be catching a nerf? The boom when they get nuked is bloody expensive. Do you want people to use these things? Nerf them and they'll just be another ship for the collectors to dust occasionally.
- The MWD\Scrambler change\nerf you proposed is seriously screwed up imho. Many pilots speed tank their ships, myself included. I do NOT want to be forced into a traditional tank because of this idiotic idea going on here. There are webs already for Christs sake and the ability to take down a speed tanked ship. Being able to completely shut down our MWD is just asking for us to hand our ships over for scrap. As a Sabre and Vagabond pilot I find this change disgusting (planning stages or not) and would find myself questioning my enjoyment with EVE. I fly by the seat of my pants. I don't like lumbering slug fests as they're f'ing boring. I like fluid fights with lots of jockeying for position and advantage. This is slowing (dumbing?) down the game for god knows what f'ing reason.
Guys, this is getting silly. YOU put the toys, skills, mods and drugs into the game so you did this to yourselves. As a pilot who doesn't use snake sets, T2 rigs, faction mwd, regular command ship or boosters it leaves me a few options to squeak some speed out of my ships. T1 rigs, modules, my skills, T2 mwd and occasional overheating. Don't kill my game because a few rich bozo's are able to dump a metric f*ck-ton of crap into their ship\head to allow them to hit ludicrous speed.
Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song |
burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:50:00 -
[1516]
Originally by: Kerfira
90% of people happy with something will not voice their opinion. 90% of people not happy with something will voice their opinion.
That doesn't mean the unhappy people are right....
Oh dear alt, the irony... You just described the months of nanowhining by failures... |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari Zero Divide The Red Skull
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:51:00 -
[1517]
I think that balancing the high end nano ships is a good idea don't get me wrong, the whole lack of speed stacking penalties in addition to ludicrous bonuses with implants, low slot equipment, faction MWD, and polycarbon rigs. This has lead to inflation to a level where to take on these pilots is very difficult (but when you take their ship down and pod them it is hilarious).
I have a few concerns:
-My main concern regards warp disruptors stopping MWD outright I assume this may also, by logic, apply to bubbles. Either of these issues is overpowered in my opinion.
MWD are not easy to fit or run so negating them entirly with a module mostr people use in PVP is over the top, a reduction in speed may work or introduction of a script to either stop MWD or stop warp (the scriptless or bubble effect could be to slightly slow MWD and stop warp)? Another option would be with the short range warp scrambler this could also finally become a more useful item if it worked purely on MWD(perhaps with an enhanced range).
-Afterburners need to become more in PVP effective then they are, they need more thrust and slightly more speed to bring them closer to the abilities of MWD so it is a viable alternative especially for transversing bubbles (which is one of the reasons why you really should attempt to fit a MWD in 0.0). Perhaps Afterburners should also reduce the effect of being webbed as an additional bonus over the MWD, this limited counter to webifiers would serve to kill two problems with one rather then wielding a nerf bat at webs.
-Speed is one of the few things that prevents hordes of overpowered T2 drones (with in my opinion ludicrous damage bonuses which almost always hit) ripping light ships apart, with these changes it will become even more unbalanced. Will this be addressed, or is PVP combat going to become more drone based (ie utterly boring)? If so I'll start buying up all the smartbombs now.
-Minmatar.. love em or loathe them they fill the wonderful skirmish role so well, however without speed to escape some heavier missiles and drones and heavy guns many ships like these will become like the deathtraps they look! These ships may disappear from use in PVP, only the heavy plated armour tanking ships may ever be used in PVP.
-3 Mid slots are needed by default for tackling and this proposed nerf is not going to change that, perhaps a potential fix for this and in fact active shield tanked ships being a bit rubbish in pvp as a whole would be if warp scrams and or webs became high slot items, this leaves more mid slots free for interesting different setups and brings in a new tension to solo and fleet ship setups (do you want more damage or tackling what do I fit in the mids anti EW or EW.. or more sensor /cap boosters or shield tank?). This would generally free up mid slots for all kinds of differant and nasty setups on all races ship's and add more challanges to fleet battles.
-The webifier nerf should not adversely effect the ability of the huginn, hyena or rapier in countering fast ships, these ships could be doubly nerfed between the proposed the speed and web nerf, and these ships are the only credible balance at the moment to 'ludicrous speed' ships and this balance should not be lost (and yes I do love flying them so please don't screw it up).
To sum up I would also like to see speed be more of a useful factor in combat for all ships (your pretty much either effectively static or going so fast that if you lag you end up 80kms away currently) so bringing this gap down is a good idea, just be sure that your not going to cause another issue in the long term which will mean more nerf batting.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:52:00 -
[1518]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 26/07/2008 01:53:42
Originally by: War Bear
Guys, this is getting silly. YOU put the toys, skills, mods and drugs into the game so you did this to yourselves. As a pilot who doesn't use snake sets, T2 rigs, faction mwd, regular command ship or boosters it leaves me a few options to squeak some speed out of my ships. T1 rigs, modules, my skills, T2 mwd and occasional overheating. Don't kill my game because a few rich bozo's are able to dump a metric f*ck-ton of crap into their ship\head to allow them to hit ludicrous speed.
Yes, they put things in and they have the power (and the right) to take them out again. Since when was Eve made YOUR game? This is CCP's game, last time I checked.
Some people just don't seem to get that an MMOG is a FOREVER evolving thing; it's not static like a console or arcade game. It's always going to be tweaked and modified for improvement; to better match the vision of the developers.
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:52:00 -
[1519]
I'd like to get in contact with CCP's legal department as I will be suing your company for lost time and money if the current change goes through (No, I am not kidding, I'd like some contact info). The amount of stupidity and incompetence in CCP seems to be never ending and I have suffered because of it. I believe that I (and others) are entitled to compensation as the product I originally payed for is no longer in existence and was not received (False advertisement). I hope others will follow suit and end this continued failure of a porject. -----
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ILikeTastyPie
Digital assassins
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:55:00 -
[1520]
I've had an overwhelming urge to do this all day. CCP, WRANGLER, AND ESPECIALLY THIS NOZH IDIOT WHO I'VE NEVER HEARD OF, YOUR IDIOTS
Got that out of my system. But on a serious note, many of the good pvpers in this game play nano. Why? Cos we are sick to death of getting blobbed. I swear I would fly a tanked ship over a nano any day if I knew the guy wasn't gna hotdrop 7 carriers and call in 15 falcons on me as soon as I engage. You have successfully ruined the last counter to the blob. Guerilla warfare is dead, no matter how many times u lie to us. Thanks.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:55:00 -
[1521]
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan I'd like to get in contact with CCP's legal department as I will be suing your company for lost time and money if the current change goes through (No, I am not kidding, I'd like some contact info). The amount of stupidity and incompetence in CCP seems to be never ending and I have suffered because of it. I believe that I (and others) are entitled to compensation as the product I originally payed for is no longer in existence and was not received (False advertisement). I hope others will follow suit and end this continued failure of a porject.
Surely, you jest? I hope so (either that, or I hope you're ready for any lawyer worth his/her salt to laugh in your face).
By definition, an MMOG is subject to CONSTANT change. The only thing you pay for is access to the game as it exists today. You are in now way paying for access to a static game. If you want that, go buy a Wii.
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:55:00 -
[1522]
Ok I've spent my fair share of time being a EFT *****, and here's a fact, you can achieve nearly 100km/s in a faction cruiser/hac if you use every bonus and know what your doing. REDICULOUS .
Who said HAC's were ever supposed to be nano ships from the start, inty's should retain there job as tacklers where most people have resorted to ishtars, zealots, vaga's, and curses.
Easy solve for the problem not some over complicated nerf, no one shoot me yet, but destroy od's and nano's maybe slightlly up the base speed of an inty, with snakes a claymore etc your gonna be looking at near 10km/s. other ship classes like hac's at max wouldnt get to far past 4 with all bonus's which imo is where they belong.
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 01:59:00 -
[1523]
Originally by: ILikeTastyPie I've had an overwhelming urge to do this all day. CCP, WRANGLER, AND ESPECIALLY THIS NOZH IDIOT WHO I'VE NEVER HEARD OF, YOUR IDIOTS
Got that out of my system. But on a serious note, many of the good pvpers in this game play nano. Why? Cos we are sick to death of getting blobbed. I swear I would fly a tanked ship over a nano any day if I knew the guy wasn't gna hotdrop 7 carriers and call in 15 falcons on me as soon as I engage. You have successfully ruined the last counter to the blob. Guerilla warfare is dead, no matter how many times u lie to us. Thanks.
Talk about being a idiot, who does the blobbing in eve... THE NANO PILOTS. I have over 800 kills in a mwd/ab free geddon, all solo/small gang. Sure I die here and there but i get ALOT more kills then deaths, I don't want to hear people say blobbing means we need high speeds.
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Camdim
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:00:00 -
[1524]
Why not just make it simple and place a cap on how much speed can be increased over base by ship type regardless of modules and cyber?
It would be much simplier to put in place and easily tunable for any future developments.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:05:00 -
[1525]
Originally by: LordVodka Ok I've spent my fair share of time being a EFT *****, and here's a fact, you can achieve nearly 100km/s in a faction cruiser/hac if you use every bonus and know what your doing. REDICULOUS .
Either you're an epic troll, or you need to pull your ass out of EFT and examine the actual game. This serves as a PERFECT argument that balancing versus the theoretical extremes is a bad thing ...
Anyways, http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831524&page=59#1750 ^ this. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:10:00 -
[1526]
Originally by: Cailais
Im not a massive expert on the vagabond, I must admit, plugging some modules into the dreaded EFT (2 x polycarb 1, 3 x OD II and 2 x Nanos) I get a max speed of 6754m/s for the vagabond. So assuming your drop of 2km/s is correct it would do 4754m/s.
Ok, now admitedly thats all skills at V (which Im sure most people don't have) but I know my curse isnt a bad tank and that really only goes around 2km/s (depending on fit) and it seems to do fine. Even if you knock of 1 km/s for lower skills the vagabond is still pretty darn fast for a HAC.
We need to see these changes in context - after all EVERYONE will be going a bit slower.
C.
with t1 polies, 2 over, 1 nano and 1 dmg control in lows you can get to 3,1 m/s all lv5 with curse. and trust me, that's not remotely bad for a ship that eat your entire cap in seconds, leving you wothout ability to repair or shoot back, or hold point or sustain speed. Vaga has only speed... and it's entire another class of ship...
--------- I want to phew phew
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Draconta
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:12:00 -
[1527]
My idea is that Frigates would remain the Top speed and acceleration kings, But be more subject to the webifiers.
Cruisers would become the Blockade runners, resiliant to the effects of webbers due to being of a greater Mass/Weight.
This would create a still purpose for vaga's and other Speed demon cruisers.
Base the webs on weight instead of gimping them down to 50-60%!!!! That will do nothing.
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:12:00 -
[1528]
what was i supposed to gain from post 1750, so some guy is quitting for a month cheers... Sure I agree with him on points ccp just devalued several highly expensive mods in eve by creating a panic, as were motherships at the time of the carrier nerf blogs, want my advice capitalize on that and buy yourself some faction. Overall though CCP needs to write these ideas out and get player input and testing, they can't just hide the idea then throw it at us in some patch and first read about it in patch notes.
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Altho Regilian
Caldari Zantiu-Braun Security Services
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:16:00 -
[1529]
Just a few words for everyone who is screaming that small gang and solo pvp will be dead after this:
Both on this character and an alt of mine, MacGuiness, are used mainly in small gang/solo pvp. On both of my characters there are only two types of ships that I've fit a MWD on. My interceptor (Gistii B-Type) and my battleship. My other ships get outfitted with either an AB or nothing at all.
My alt, MacGuiness, usually flies a Wolf (*GASP* an AF!!) and is VERY good at it. Currently I have 24 kills in just that one ship ranging from frigs, destroyers, cruisers, a few interceptors, other AF's and interdictors to round it out. The wolf has an AB on board and uses a damage tank instead of a "classic" tank or a speed tank. (E.G. Do so much damage that you kill the other guy first).
One of the other ships I fly in small gang and solo would be my crow on this character. Yes, I'll miss being able to go 11km/sec with the gistii B and 2 polycarbons but you know what? The only times I've lost crows are to HAC's which were traveling *faster* than me or where I got in too close to a Huginn/Rapier. And I've been noticing a trend as more and more people switch to "ludicrous speed" setups I've lost more and more crows. I am in complete agreement with the devs when it comes to having HAC's nerfed. I frankly don't give two if you spent 5 billion on your HAC, in no way should it go just as fast and or faster than an interceptor, which is little more than a pod strapped to engines.
As for people complaining about the missiles. I'm half and half with you. It's been one of my biggest peeves to sit and sling missiles at that orbiting vagabond just to see them not hit or when they do hit, doing no damage. I also take umbrage to missile users being referred to as "less skilled" players. Guns have been the big weapons for a long time in eve and will continue to dominate the field. I've got about 8 Million in gunnery and 7 million in missiles. On average (not even considering speed) guns do more damage then missiles. Per shot, a small AC II with barrage does about 3/4 the damage of a light missile. But with that AC, I can get a 2.01 sec RoF whereas I'm sitting around 6-7 seconds on the missile or 2-3 seconds on a rocket that does half the damage of the AC. Or have you seen a cruise raven in a sniper fleet? Most alliances I know outright ban them because they are useless.
But I digress, I've called on the devs to look more at the smaller missiles and modules affecting them for quite some time now. Namely, the lack of mid-slot items affecting missile velocity and explosion velocity. I saw this as a way to help counter the nano's and bring some caldari ships back into the field with more options to fit then missiles and shield tank. From reading the blog, they apparently took a look at missiles but noticed some funky stuff happening with the physics engine. As such, that means I'm OK with their proposed solution until I can sit and play with it in the test server.
Good job devs. I appreciate your work and I agree with you that speed has been an issue for a while now. I didn't think your idea for this game revolved solely around HAC's.
Small gang and solo PVP won't die, so I'm not going to worry about it. Will we see a return to blobs for a while? Yes. But as people get more creative with their fittings I'm certain we will see a resurgence of small/solo pvp.
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Carebear Caring
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:19:00 -
[1530]
Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:20:00 -
[1531]
Edited by: LordVodka on 26/07/2008 02:20:37
Originally by: Xorth Adimus
MWD are not easy to fit or run so negating them entirely with a module most people use in PVP is over the top, a reduction in speed may work or introduction of a script to either stop MWD or stop warp (the scriptless or bubble effect could be to slightly slow MWD and stop warp)?
Agreed I think they should consider a script to a warp disrupter, or the HIC's high slot warp disruption, which deactivates a MWD, or maybe a mid slot module such as a ECM type that has a chance to jam propulsion modules.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:20:00 -
[1532]
Originally by: Carebear Caring Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
this ^^
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facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:24:00 -
[1533]
Originally by: Carebear Caring Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
Personally, I'd prefer that whoever wrote the dev blog actually played the damn game.
Seriously.
That's not much to ask. |
Akira117
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:24:00 -
[1534]
Does ccp not even think of the isk aspect of this, probably not since the dev that wrote this obviously doesn't.
999.times {print " The Cake is a lie."} |
Garion Avarr
Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:24:00 -
[1535]
I have to disagree with CCP's first point, "Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for."
Speed for most ships should never reach ludicrous speed, yes, but a few ships specifically designed to use that tactic should be able to reach ludicrous speed (and without being insanely expensive -- it should be the ship that allows use of ludicrous speed, not the ISK) -- primarily interceptors should have 'ludicrous speed' as their main defense, but also a few specific other ships -- the Vagabond and Stabber, possibly some faction ships, too.
Being able to reach ludicrous speed is the whole point of certain ships -- but it shouldn't be something you can make any ship do if you have enough ISK.
Aside from that, the whole warp scrams turning off MWD sounds very cool, will mean people have tough choices to make regarding using a MWD or AB, a disruptor or scram. Might want to ensure that they have different icons in the EW part of the overview, so you can see who's turning off your MWD, and who's merely preventing you from warping.
It does seem like you're overdoing things, though -- though I haven't studied things in-depth, my gut feeling is that there does need to be a little balancing, but that it shouldn't be quite as drastic as what is proposed. Certainly polycarbons need to be brought in line with their module version, that isn't even completely just because of balancing speed, but it should be in line with the relationships other rigs have with module versions. I do hope, however, that you'll reduce the cost to make them to be in line with other rigs!
I don't know about making all MWDs give a 500% bonus to speed, I think the faction/deadspace ones need to be balanced a bit better, but I don't think a flatt 500% is the way to do it. I could be wrong, though, I'll have to look at the changes on SiSi.
I'm not sure about changing modules that affect mass to have them instead affect speed and agility, it doesn't seem quite right, but I suppose it makes balancing things easier. Would this mean that they now improve your speed even when you don't have a MWD or AB active? It seems like they should, if they're going to stack with modules that improve regular speed.
You mention that boosters like X-Instinct aren't used much -- if this is so, I would think that they should be left exactly the way they are, to make their use more attractive, instead of making them far less likely to be used. Changing them really doesn't make much sense.
Overall, it seems like you are going in a good direction, but going a bit too far. I'll withhold judgement until I can try things on SiSi, though.
PS: As an interesting tidbit regarding 'utopia': the word literially means a place that doesn't (or cannot) exist. More had an interesting sense of humor. ________________________________ This is not a signature. |
Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:25:00 -
[1536]
Good statements Altho...i fully agree with you
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XxKatharsisxX
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:29:00 -
[1537]
Please dont do it!
if my vaga only goes 3 k ill quit the game! Im serious! thats not what i skilled for 3 years
any damn bc would kill me easyly then
true that going 20 k in a vaga seems a lil overpowered .. but the ordenary one just does like 6 k
especially the vagas only advantage is its speed ! dont nerf that its fine like it is and if u spend 3 bil for a speedhac .. let it be so
if i spend 3 bil for a bs it can tank like hell too
and btw if u reach a certain speed u dont hit anything
also if u engage multiple targets u need that speed if u want to revive afterburners: INCREASE THE BONUS and not nerv everything!
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:31:00 -
[1538]
I haven't made my mind up about the upcoming changes. Its such a broad change that it will affect everyday combat not just for nano pilots. I'll wait to test the changes and give feedback then.
But as you were asking for feedback i'll start with this:
Originally by: "CCP Nozh"
Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds?
Why would you?
Probably because you cannot actually aquire a hac for the price of an interceptor. Much less one that is fitted with t2 rigs, faction overdrives, deadspace mwd and lg-snake set on top. My unrigged t2 crusader does 8km/s and few hacs will compete without said billion isk investments.
I just really don't believe you wouldn't know that. I am sorry and i don't mean to flame but this is disturbing.
And just to give an interesting anaology to your reasoning: why would you buy a hac instead of a much more durable and even cheap and insurable tier2 bc that even *outtanks* and *outdamages* you? I sincerely hope that after these changes the answer to this question is not "not at all" once again.
Sorry, i hope i'll be positively surprised when these changes hit Sisi. But statements like that don't reinforce the trust in you to actually make a thorough decision based on facts.
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Aya
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:33:00 -
[1539]
Quote: If nanos ran you'd have a point, however nanos give raw superiority of the field, purely because someone had more isk than the other guy to spend on a borked ship setup type. If you want to run, and somehow can't in a ship that still moves several km/s and can warp out in a few seconds, it sounds like a personally issue.
So if i was in a suped up ferrari that i bought and had years of racing experience, I should expect the 18 year old kid in a stock jetta from the dealership to have a chance?
In eve we all think the jetta should have a chance
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:38:00 -
[1540]
Originally by: Myra2007 I haven't made my mind up about the upcoming changes. Its such a broad change that it will affect everyday combat not just for nano pilots. I'll wait to test the changes and give feedback then.
But as you were asking for feedback i'll start with this:
Originally by: "CCP Nozh"
Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds?
Why would you?
Probably because you cannot actually aquire a hac for the price of an interceptor. Much less one that is fitted with t2 rigs, faction overdrives, deadspace mwd and lg-snake set on top. My unrigged t2 crusader does 8km/s and few hacs will compete without said billion isk investments.
I just really don't believe you wouldn't know that. I am sorry and i don't mean to flame but this is disturbing.
And just to give an interesting anaology to your reasoning: why would you buy a hac instead of a much more durable and even cheap and insurable tier2 bc that even *outtanks* and *outdamages* you? I sincerely hope that after these changes the answer to this question is not "not at all" once again.
Sorry, i hope i'll be positively surprised when these changes hit Sisi. But statements like that don't reinforce the trust in you to actually make a thorough decision based on facts.
I think you forgot the grand matra "Isk is not a balancing factor!" as LordVodka made perfectly clear by stating that all characters had a bill+ to drop into a HAC. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:39:00 -
[1541]
Originally by: facialimpediment
Originally by: Carebear Caring Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
Personally, I'd prefer that whoever wrote the dev blog actually played the damn game.
Seriously.
That's not much to ask.
this ^^ -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
ISpydeRI
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:39:00 -
[1542]
FIX THE GAMES LAG ISSUES , FIX THE COMMON BUGS K THX BAI
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Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:40:00 -
[1543]
Wow, no one whines like PvP'ers.
/me looks at his grossly insufficient bucket
ok, time to get a back hoe and dig a pool to catch all the nano tears.
Seriously guys, grow some. If you couldn't see this coming for the last YEAR you were purposely plugging up your ears and singing "na na na na, hey hey, good bye"
On a more serious note: Economic predictions:
Prices of vagas and ishtars etc should come down a bit. Prices of gallente recons up a bit, price of trit bar, down a bit (not a lot, still plenty of other uses in high demand). The high end market will of course be more volatile. Be interesting if we see a return of the faction afterburners. We've got enough lead time to see what happens on Sisi before deciding the exact effects and their economic repercussions.
I suspect we'll see a resurgence of some tanking setups and T1 combat as people wait to see what the flavor of the month turns out to be after the patch.
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Lt Jester
Shade.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:45:00 -
[1544]
"Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds?"
... An intie costs 20-30 mill and goes 7km/s a polycarbed vaga costs over 130 mill and goes 6km/s and is easier to hit, turns slower and aligns slower and cant permarun the mwd unless you use either a cap battery / some cap mods with a faction mwd
Is this Starwars galaxies all over?O.o this is gonna ruin the gameplay for a lot of people, and CCP will lose many subscriptions, fix the lag, fix the character sheet dissapearing. Geeze.
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Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:47:00 -
[1545]
Edited by: Internet Knight on 26/07/2008 02:48:07 60 pages and still growing fairly rapidly. No way in hell am I going to read all of it. But I do want to say that CCP may have partially regained my faith. The ideas in this devblod do need some tweaking. Perhaps this thread isn't the best place to discuss it, with all the people whining EVERYWHERE though!
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro you can't guarantee that you'll be able to withdraw
As I recall, CCP made a heavy nerf to WCS in order to prevent people from engaging and disengaging at will without consequences. Nanos were abused to bypass that -- they became the new WCS. If you engage, you shouldn't be guaranteed the ability to withdraw.
Originally by: Sid Zero 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
No delay to scramble. Don't throw away ridiculous drawbacks. WCS were nerfed for a reason.
Originally by: Aeo IV Whole Scramblers killing MWDs is crap. Just drop it, end of story. If they're really a problem, nerf them across the board, and introduce advanced MWDs, usable only on speed ships such as interceptors. Or you could just prevent missiles and drones from launching/being controllable, at such high speeds; that would severaly reduce the DPS of most of the problematic nano ships to maintainable levels. Or you could simply introduce effective countermeasures, like, say, Missiles who's explosion radius get reduced if the ship it hits is uses a MWD.
Your reasoning makes no sense at all. MWDs are MicroWarpDrives, scramblers are Warp drive inhibitors. They prevent you from warping.
"Advanced" MWDs? What's a t2 MWD? Preventing missiles from being launched and drones from being controlled doesn't make sense. Missiles can be launched at any speed (and they should inherit the speed and trajectory of the launcher). Communications aren't affected by speed (not speed that we can reach while fighting, anyways, whether ludicrous or not); they're affected more by distance, so preventing drones from being controlled doesn't make sense there.
And you completely missed the point whereas afterburners are currently completely obsolete except in niche positions (missions and when you really care about your sigradius more than speed).
You are correct on the missile points though. In fact, I wrote a reply to a thread regarding missile changes not too long ago. Basically, turrets have a tracking speed based on the target's transversal velocity. Missiles simply explode based on the target's radial velocity. I believe a lot of missile-vs-nano whines would disappear if missiles' explosions were more based on the target's transversal velocity.
Originally by: Mioelnir - Decreased web effect: so, how exactly is one supposed to stop a tanked ship from reapproching the gate, except by bringing so many people that you near-instapop it?
Why is it so important that you kill a tanked ship before it reapproaches? If it's 1v1, then either of you will die or disengage. I see nothing wrong with that. I, also, see nothing wrong with you bringing more people (or the tanked ship bringing more people).
Originally by: Mioelnir - Decreased large bubble radius: there are stations in New Eden with 'ludicrous' docking ranges where you actually need t2 large bubbles to come even close to the undock spot (Gallente Outpost 35km anyone?). How is this adressed?
In my opinion, all stations' docking ranges should be normalized. I don't believe the docking perimeter should be as large as the Gallente outposts', nor do I believe they should have a docking perimeter as short as some Minmatar stations who pretty much throw you beyond the docking perimeter as soon as you undock. I believe there should be a 10km perimeter for all stations and outposts.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:48:00 -
[1546]
Originally by: Mioelnir - Decreased web effect: so, how exactly is one supposed to stop a tanked ship from reapproching the gate, except by bringing so many people that you near-instapop it?
Why is it so important that you kill a tanked ship before it reapproaches? If it's 1v1, then either of you will die or disengage. I see nothing wrong with that. I, also, see nothing wrong with you bringing more people (or the tanked ship bringing more people). Assault Frigates will probably be more common -- since people will have fewer MWDs and more ABs, AFs will be able to keep up with some of them.
Originally by: Mioelnir - Decreased large bubble radius: there are stations in New Eden with 'ludicrous' docking ranges where you actually need t2 large bubbles to come even close to the undock spot (Gallente Outpost 35km anyone?). How is this adressed?
In my opinion, all stations' docking ranges should be normalized. I don't believe the docking perimeter should be as large as the Gallente outposts', nor do I believe they should have a docking perimeter as short as some Minmatar stations who pretty much throw you beyond the docking perimeter as soon as you undock. I believe there should be a 10km perimeter for all stations and outposts.
Originally by: Mioelnir - What do ships get whose single selling point was "it is fast"? Even with 3 projectile boni, a Machariel got reduced to being fast for all practical intents and purposes because the dps still lacked. Or to go to the a bit cheaper end, Stabber anyone? With 3/3 mids/lows it sure as hell can't tank. Now it can't run either?
Some ships fit the "solo" mindset very well. Others don't. A stabber is just fine with 3/3 mids/lows: it doesn't fit the "solo" mindset very well, but it does fit the "fleet support" mindset very well. Put a MWD (or perhaps an AB now), a webber, and a disruptor, and a speed tank, and now you're a heavy tackler.
Originally by: Mioelnir I am not convinced this is a change for the better. There are ships where evading damage is the only way to stay alive, which actually means the ship is broken if you now decleare the evading mechanic to be broken. You can't seriously "fix" one without the other.
I believe the only ships that really have any chance of getting broken by this change might be interceptors and the Vagabond. Anything else is getting fixed. And whatever happens, specific role ships can have special bonuses added to make them better in some way. For example, blasterboats can have a bonus which multiplies their webifier effectiveness. However, I do believe that blasterboats will manage just fine -- not only are they slower, but their targets are slower too.
Originally by: Koyama Ise if you really have to implement something about scrams and MWD's maybe make it so the more points (after count Warp Core Stabilizers) on the ship the more cap the MWD uses.
TBH, that sounds like an excellent idea.
Originally by: Carebear Caring Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
No, that honor goes to the devblog Zulupark wrote in which he announced plans for having carriers only be allowed use of 5 drones.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Sir Gwilloc
Gallente Shade.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:48:00 -
[1547]
I Like the idea of warp scramblers shutting off the mwd, everything else is rediculous
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:48:00 -
[1548]
Originally by: RafRam "If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds." Well, you just have to change your special high-speed missile in very-special-very-highest-boosted-speed-missiles&drones and leave the ships and mods as they are currently !
Instead to bother players trying to change things of 5+ years old that are the same for everybody you should try to think how to fight more the 50 players in the same system without the lag 6+ years old.
Good luck and fly safe
Ya because the missle speeds and the drone speeds are the physics engine.... buffing those speeds will repair the physics engine, how could they not have seen that.
Or maybe buffing those speeds wont change the physics engine, it will only further the problem. tard. Contract me your stuff when you're done with your little emo cry in the corner.
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Gronk NEF
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:49:00 -
[1549]
Quote: -Nozh, bringing balance to the galaxy
More like "Making the Minmatar Race completely useless"
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:51:00 -
[1550]
Altho Regilian and Garion Avarr: Wonderful, level-headed, thoughtful and constructive posts. Can all the whiners follow their lead? K, thanks.
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Sir Ector
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:54:00 -
[1551]
So basically, instead of making an effort to teach people how to use neutralizers and overheated webs, you're just making the isk factor as irrelevant as possible.
Little wonder I barely log in, already.
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:10:00 -
[1552]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 03:15:09 This dev brings more fail than we all can add to coad in 1 day.. and he did it in a mere 5 hours!
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Quoted for truth
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MD Dawg
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:10:00 -
[1553]
Ok, so how the hell are people going to escape blobs? Not only is this nerf going to get rid of small roaming gangs being able to run away from a blob, but it makes the minmitar race useless. Goodluck getting back to the gate in a 2km/s vagabond or webbing an interceptor in a rapier and catching up to it. Many people I know already cancelled subscription because who wants to play a game where the bigger gang always wins!
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:12:00 -
[1554]
Edited by: Matrixcvd on 26/07/2008 03:14:44 its beyond the nerf bat, its clearly an attempt by egotistical devs to "take back the game" from the very people who have defined the way PVP was carried out for over 2 years.
Most sane individuals accept Darwins theory of evolution and that, evolution makes certain ideas or concepts extinct thru natural selection. If something becomes obsolete based on player interaction, the logical step would be to add or improve the core mechanic.
The CCP way of looking at rectifying the evolution based on the players in the sandbox, is to ring fire and brimstone down, smash the undesirable, set forth massive changes and let the dust settle.
The language used by the devs is clearly omnipotent and full of religious overtones for a reason. Pssst they know the game of PVP better than we do!
what we have here is not a nerf bat but a struggle for who determines how PVP is carried out in this game, plain and simple. Some vocal devs have made the utmost ridiculous statements over the years to only further this thesis of mine. Each and everytime a dev poast goes up, the ridiculous statements by other dev's justifying the necessity of the change brings most human intelligence to a standstill, "Carriers, the swiss army of eve" "T2 auxillary Rigs and Snakes and I go 4k/s thats fine" "there is no lag" "blah bubbba blah blah blah"
Its the attitude that bothers me, the desire to wreak havoc with the core PVP mechanics, the blatant acknowledgement that while they say "Wait till the changes hit SiSi", but "We wont have any idea once they go live on TQ". The manner in which the stats were laid out EFT style from Dyiodonkey, the T2 rigs, the full snake set, the nonsense about 10k/s vagas. Every single dev poast up to this point has been utter garbage with a complete lack of understanding how PVP is carried out, on TQ, with everyones input, not with just with skillpoints but real isk and playtime.
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Lord Blandness
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:20:00 -
[1555]
Yeahhhhhh, now PL and Tri will quit and thus decrease lag for everyone. This truelly is a great decision and I fully support it. Bu-bye PL and Tri
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Taladool
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:22:00 -
[1556]
Edited by: Taladool on 26/07/2008 03:22:40
Originally by: Xorth Adimus Edited by: Xorth Adimus on 26/07/2008 02:03:47 I think that balancing the high end nano ships is a good idea don't get me wrong, the whole lack of speed stacking penalties in addition to ludicrous bonuses with implants, low slot equipment, faction MWD, and polycarbon rigs. This has lead to ISK inflation of these 'l334' items to a level where to take on these pilots is very difficult as they normally run away if you engage them or have 20 mates also in maxed out nano ships turn up just to kill one ship (but when you spring a trap on them take their ship down and pod them it is absolutly hilarious).
I have a few concerns:
-My main concern regards warp disruptors stopping MWD outright I assume this may also, by logic, apply to bubbles. Either of these issues is overpowered in my opinion.
reserved
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Brutore
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:24:00 -
[1557]
i agree with matrixcvd even if i didn't understand all that he said and ment, but why cant CCP just stop nerfing things and adding changes many may not like and just fix what they have at the moment? stop adding new things and fix the old stuff.
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Draahk Chimera
Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:24:00 -
[1558]
First of all, I fly 10km/s vagas myself and I like the changes. I felt there was way too little different setups lately. It was all vagas, nanorapiers and the odd falcon lately. My game becomes harder but also more fun.
Anyways, I have a question to the development team. With the change in meta levels thingy to mwd's. How will this affect the demios? Will a t2 mwd mean a cap increase? Like when you cloak in a stealth bomber means a speed increase? Or are we looking at a bonus change for the demios?
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:26:00 -
[1559]
So for the players who like to roam in small gangs effectively get shafted and get forced to flying in blobs. Got it.
I think the reason people are so outraged by this is because it took so long. You take two years to nerf something and you effectively legitimize it. Being able to run from a fight and pick off the stupid targets is the beauty part of flying nanos; it gives small gangs the ability to play with the big boys and punish them for being idiots. It is the epitome of tactical warfare, which CCP claims to love.
Honestly, it'll be interesting to see how this gets implemented.
PS. Don't forget to nerf the Crystal and Slave sets, if you're going to nerf the Snakes.
---------- I need a good sig, someone make one for me. |
D4rkF4lcon
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:26:00 -
[1560]
Originally by: Lord Blandness Yeahhhhhh, now PL and Tri will quit and thus decrease lag for everyone. This truelly is a great decision and I fully support it. Bu-bye PL and Tri
OMG were dead!! The Devs killed us!!! Well maybe just the Illuminati but no one cares about them
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:28:00 -
[1561]
There must be balance.
Nothing should be able to outrun modded Warrior II's and light precision missiles.
No ship should be useless, and no ship should be uber useful.
Perhaps these won't be the final changes (likely) but it is certainly something which needs changed.
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Re'taka
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:31:00 -
[1562]
Originally by: Elise Randolph So for the players who like to roam in small gangs effectively get shafted and get forced to flying in blobs. Got it.
I think the reason people are so outraged by this is because it took so long. You take two years to nerf something and you effectively legitimize it. Being able to run from a fight and pick off the stupid targets is the beauty part of flying nanos; it gives small gangs the ability to play with the big boys and punish them for being idiots. It is the epitome of tactical warfare, which CCP claims to love.
Honestly, it'll be interesting to see how this gets implemented.
PS. Don't forget to nerf the Crystal and Slave sets, if you're going to nerf the Snakes.
Well, once apon a time, there where these little gangs flying around, normaly 4 to 8 ships, these where battle crusiers, to battleship size, sometimes hac's if they could foot the bill, these ships did something that is hardly ever seen today, its called tanking, and your roaming gang wasn't a nano gang but a RR Roaming gang, thats right remote rep gangs, they did just fine back then, they will do fine now, Im glad to see this change, will mean more tanked combat instead of a bunch of ppl flying around me bugging me but with no DPS for the real kill...
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SunGod RA
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:38:00 -
[1563]
I know I'll have nightmares about this =[
FAT ROBOT STUCK IN CONCRETE ONLINE W0o |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:39:00 -
[1564]
Edited by: GO MaZ on 26/07/2008 03:43:02
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder There must be balance.
Nothing should be able to outrun modded Warrior II's and light precision missiles.
No ship should be useless, and no ship should be uber useful.
Perhaps these won't be the final changes (likely) but it is certainly something which needs changed.
That's funny - only the people spending utter billions on their ships can outrun modded warrior II's, it's a game mechanic fault that causes them to be useless because they switch into orbit mode when they catch up to the ship and drop to like 1500m/s; this isn't a nano issue
edited for the utter absurdity of this comment:
Originally by: Re'taka Well, once apon a time, there where these little gangs flying around, normaly 4 to 8 ships, these where battle crusiers, to battleship size, sometimes hac's if they could foot the bill, these ships did something that is hardly ever seen today, its called tanking, and your roaming gang wasn't a nano gang but a RR Roaming gang, thats right remote rep gangs, they did just fine back then, they will do fine now, Im glad to see this change, will mean more tanked combat instead of a bunch of ppl flying around me bugging me but with no DPS for the real kill...
I want to see your 4-8 man remote rep roaming gang take a trip into any large spaceholding alliances' space and see how long you "tank" against a doomsday and four motherships ---
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Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:47:00 -
[1565]
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 26/07/2008 03:43:02
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder There must be balance.
Nothing should be able to outrun modded Warrior II's and light precision missiles.
No ship should be useless, and no ship should be uber useful.
Perhaps these won't be the final changes (likely) but it is certainly something which needs changed.
That's funny - only the people spending utter billions on their ships can outrun modded warrior II's, it's a game mechanic fault that causes them to be useless because they switch into orbit mode when they catch up to the ship and drop to like 1500m/s; this isn't a nano issue
edited for the utter absurdity of this comment:
Originally by: Re'taka Well, once apon a time, there where these little gangs flying around, normaly 4 to 8 ships, these where battle crusiers, to battleship size, sometimes hac's if they could foot the bill, these ships did something that is hardly ever seen today, its called tanking, and your roaming gang wasn't a nano gang but a RR Roaming gang, thats right remote rep gangs, they did just fine back then, they will do fine now, Im glad to see this change, will mean more tanked combat instead of a bunch of ppl flying around me bugging me but with no DPS for the real kill...
I want to see your 4-8 man remote rep roaming gang take a trip into any large spaceholding alliances' space and see how long you "tank" against a doomsday and four motherships
Well as you nano users like like to preach "adapt or die". _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:48:00 -
[1566]
Originally by: facialimpediment
Originally by: Carebear Caring Worst dev blog ever, who ever thought of this should be fired tbqh
Personally, I'd prefer that whoever wrote the dev blog actually played the damn game.
Seriously.
That's not much to ask.
So much truth to this. The fact that all these changes are coming at ONCE, and not one by one, coupled with the posts that have been put out by the devs are just ridiculous. This looks like it was thrown together by people that don't even play the game, and has shattered any confidence I had in them putting together a decent solution to this situation.
If anything, these changes should come one or a few at a time, and not all at once. And they should be justified with more than a fit of 'ordinary' gear based on HG snakes. I mean, there was a suggestion in the dev blog like their 5 hour meeting was "a lot" of time to spend thinking on this, but considering there are tens of thousands of us paying $15 a month (or $30, or $45, or whatever depending on accounts), 5 hours of time by some people, some of which apparently don't even PLAY the game, is not a lot. It's not nearly enough thought put into this imho.
Do the changes a few at a time, and balance them on a decent damn fit, and go from there based on feedback/testing. Don't throw the book of changes/nerfs at a problem, based on whines and fits that aren't even realistic.
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Psyleste
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:48:00 -
[1567]
Originally by: Motaka Well as you nano users like like to preach "adapt or die".
We adapted long ago you friggin' idiot. Like it's been said before 90% of the ships in our gangs use a MWD as their 1 and only speed mod.
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:49:00 -
[1568]
Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 03:50:46 CCP Nozh's legacy.
25 July 2008 10:44 | CCP Nozh | Speed Rebalanced 18 February 2008 08:15 | CCP Nozh | Jump Freighters in Trinity 1.1 23 October 2007 19:49 | CCP Nozh | Carriers, the Swiss Army Knife of EVE???
So does he actually play the game or what? Because so far he's got 2 big nerfs under his belt. I'm afraid to see anymore ideas from this guy.
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mamolian
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:52:00 -
[1569]
100m for Nozh's frozen corpse.. -----------
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D4RT N3RDiUS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:52:00 -
[1570]
Quote: Edited by: GO MaZ on 26/07/2008 03:43:02
Originally by: Thebro NobrunderThere must be balance.
Nothing should be able to outrun modded Warrior II's and light precision missiles.
No ship should be useless, and no ship should be uber useful.
Perhaps these won't be the final changes (likely) but it is certainly something which needs changed.
That's funny - only the people spending utter billions on their ships can outrun modded warrior II's, it's a game mechanic fault that causes them to be useless because they switch into orbit mode when they catch up to the ship and drop to like 1500m/s; this isn't a nano issue Razz
edited for the utter absurdity of this comment:
Originally by: Re'takaWell, once apon a time, there where these little gangs flying around, normaly 4 to 8 ships, these where battle crusiers, to battleship size, sometimes hac's if they could foot the bill, these ships did something that is hardly ever seen today, its called tanking, and your roaming gang wasn't a nano gang but a RR Roaming gang, thats right remote rep gangs, they did just fine back then, they will do fine now, Im glad to see this change, will mean more tanked combat instead of a bunch of ppl flying around me bugging me but with no DPS for the real kill...
I want to see your 4-8 man remote rep roaming gang take a trip into any large spaceholding alliances' space and see how long you "tank" against a doomsday and four motherships Rolling Eyes
ccp pls read this.. man i use to figth patetic legion and all the argument you post is real mate GM READ and take note!!! if you only modifie the explosion velocity of missiles and the fuking mecanic of drones wen they engage combat you dont need to mees upp all the friking ships of eve .
lols.. ccp WHO ARE YOUR DEVELOPERS!! WERE DID YOU RECLUTE THEM IN EMPIRE MINING ???? lol
dont anione realize mining ships now are faster than a cruiser??? lol anione saw that in the grafic chart???
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mamolian
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:53:00 -
[1571]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 03:50:46 CCP Nozh's legacy.
25 July 2008 10:44 | CCP Nozh | Speed Rebalanced 18 February 2008 08:15 | CCP Nozh | Jump Freighters in Trinity 1.1 23 October 2007 19:49 | CCP Nozh | Carriers, the Swiss Army Knife of EVE???
So does he actually play the game or what? Because so far he's got 2 big nerfs under his belt. I'm afraid to see anymore ideas from this guy.
Bloody makebelieve dev.. they use when they know their going to get eaten alive by us ;) -----------
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Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:54:00 -
[1572]
Originally by: Psyleste
Originally by: Motaka Well as you nano users like like to preach "adapt or die".
We adapted long ago you friggin' idiot. Like it's been said before 90% of the ships in our gangs use a MWD as their 1 and only speed mod.
Oh puuuuuulease you really expect me belive that,you know battleclinic is an awesome tool for rooting out bullshit.
_______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:55:00 -
[1573]
Originally by: mamolian
Originally by: Tixxie Lix Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 03:50:46 CCP Nozh's legacy.
25 July 2008 10:44 | CCP Nozh | Speed Rebalanced 18 February 2008 08:15 | CCP Nozh | Jump Freighters in Trinity 1.1 23 October 2007 19:49 | CCP Nozh | Carriers, the Swiss Army Knife of EVE???
So does he actually play the game or what? Because so far he's got 2 big nerfs under his belt. I'm afraid to see anymore ideas from this guy.
Bloody makebelieve dev.. they use when they know their going to get eaten alive by us ;)
lol qft mate.
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Kimiyo Ishikawa
Brannigan's Law
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:59:00 -
[1574]
These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
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Psyleste
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:00:00 -
[1575]
Edited by: Psyleste on 26/07/2008 04:02:09 Ok if you take the illuminati out... damn oshit making my arguements invalid...
Edit: Then again if you looked at our killboards and used the battle reports you'd notice when ppl aren't out soloing they might have 1 speed mod (unless your in oshit or a cerb).
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Re'taka
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:14:00 -
[1576]
Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 26/07/2008 03:43:02
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder There must be balance.
Nothing should be able to outrun modded Warrior II's and light precision missiles.
No ship should be useless, and no ship should be uber useful.
Perhaps these won't be the final changes (likely) but it is certainly something which needs changed.
That's funny - only the people spending utter billions on their ships can outrun modded warrior II's, it's a game mechanic fault that causes them to be useless because they switch into orbit mode when they catch up to the ship and drop to like 1500m/s; this isn't a nano issue
edited for the utter absurdity of this comment:
Originally by: Re'taka Well, once apon a time, there where these little gangs flying around, normaly 4 to 8 ships, these where battle crusiers, to battleship size, sometimes hac's if they could foot the bill, these ships did something that is hardly ever seen today, its called tanking, and your roaming gang wasn't a nano gang but a RR Roaming gang, thats right remote rep gangs, they did just fine back then, they will do fine now, Im glad to see this change, will mean more tanked combat instead of a bunch of ppl flying around me bugging me but with no DPS for the real kill...
I want to see your 4-8 man remote rep roaming gang take a trip into any large spaceholding alliances' space and see how long you "tank" against a doomsday and four motherships
If your not smart and decide to fly without scouts thats your prob, no I didn't mention scouts, but TBH any gang without them in 0.0 has a fool for an FC, shouldn't have to mention the basics like that, plus your nano's wont live the dd any more then the BS's will, and don't say you can align and warp before it gos off, not going to happen, tried that a few times, even entering warp you get hit, and BOOM Dead...
Besides that, your nano gangs never went vs titians and mother ships they would just run at that point, like any small gang (including any smart RR gang), I didn't say it was perfect, and without risk, but come on, 2 bil isk fitted hac and pod, vs a BS worth 130 mil each and insured for 100 mil each, seems like a small loss compaired to the nano fit fleet. I can afford to lose 30 or so BS with full insurance to your one hac at that price.. so sure you might not make it out alive, but your not losing tons of isk either.
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:15:00 -
[1577]
Originally by: Ulasim Edited by: Ulasim on 26/07/2008 04:13:37 Dear ccp while I am deeply touch by the careful consideration you have put into these changes I must bring an extermly dire issue to your a attention.
The Golem
Now using the following fit which is affordable to most player who are regular pvpers in 0.0 with 20km/s nano HACs, macherials etc. with a commandship alt in system and combat boosters that of course everyone uses.
[Golem, See What I Did There?] Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Damage Control II
Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified X-Large Shield Booster Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field Draclira's Modified Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800
Estamel's Modified Siege Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Inferno Torpedo Estamel's Modified Siege Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Inferno Torpedo Estamel's Modified Siege Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Inferno Torpedo Tobias' Modified Siege Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Inferno Torpedo [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Core Defence Operational Solidifier II
'Augmented' Ogre x2 'Augmented' Hammerhead x2 'Augmented' Hobgoblin x1
with a mindlinked vulture and high-grade crystals which are cheaper then high grade snakes this setup can tank approx. 12500dps beforeheat, now I know you guys don't play eve much so I'll give you an example, a sniper apoc does approx. 400dps which means you would need 31in order to kill this ship, a 3 magnetic stab megathron does in the area of 1250dps that means it would take 11 in order to down this ship and they would have to fight at close range. Where as I can kill just about any pimped out nano hac with a few well (gisti b + poly) inties, a skirmish link claymore and 1 or 2 damage ships.
Dam this whole EFT is fun, lets just forget about eve and fighting all our battles in EFT.
You just made me lol so hard dude . I'd like to see that Golem with 3x Estamel's Invulnerability Fields.
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PsychoBones
Sons of Plunder.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:17:00 -
[1578]
I, for one, welcome our new Abaddon/Armageddon overlords.
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SSDD24
Gallente Logical Progression
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:17:00 -
[1579]
I cry when peeps that hate the PL and TRI guys miss the way they also get pwned by this. This utter crap means minnies will have even less ships flyable in real combat ( well maybe if ur geeky u could find a few vagabond setups with alot of EHP that make like the today drake die a little slower without doin shit) gallente lose all the nice blasterboats but gain the new i-win the arazu.
PS Stop beein stupid and see whats this is all about. I would remind what the real issues of EVE atm r but y the f*** since CCP takes everythin with a "grain of salt"
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:18:00 -
[1580]
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Ahva
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:19:00 -
[1581]
Edited by: Ahva on 26/07/2008 04:19:35
Originally by: Ephemeron So far nobody has emphasized the lack of data mining results from EVE database. EVE database is full of information on who is flying what ship, who's using snakes and other implants, how many people use boosters. EVE records combat kills and losses, recording setups used on dead ships. There is a huge amount of information available that can be data mined for useful conclusions.
Why do we need it?
Consider the statement: "nano-Ishtar's flying at 3500 m/s are completely overpowered and broken!"
What exactly does it mean? Without any additional information, we can only base our judgement of that statement on personal experience. People with different experience will disagree on that statement. There seems to be no way to tell who's wrong or right.. but there is a way!
EVE database has the answers. It may not have clear cut answers to that particular statement, but it can provide solid foundations on which to rely on. We CAN know how many nano-Ishtars are out there, we can know how many people they "pwn" and how many (or few) of them end up dying because of their "invulnerability". We can find out just how well this speed invulnerability argument holds up in practice.
We can also find out the costs involved in ships destroyed. We can learn how much damage in isk a 4 billion nanoship causes to other players before it is destroyed. We can compare the costs. We can compare the ship numbers.
From all that data, we can work out a set of facts and based on them we can guide our judgements on specific issues, such as "the nanoships are broken". People could interpret the facts in different ways, the is no clear cut logic, but at least it will be based on something solid.
CCP, if you are going to do something this drastic, at least dignify us with some real data analysis.
I agree, we need statistics. The main justification in the Dev Blog was that faction/complex mods that cost billions of isk with Snake implants warants a Nerf. Statistics to reveal how many people are actually using these super high grade items would be useful and actually give an idea as to how "big of a problem" nanos are.
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Saori Rei
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:19:00 -
[1582]
Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:21:00 -
[1583]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
Sounds like you missed a lot of kills to nanos. My point is, if the nano's are running away from you then they're obviously not attacking you, so they're no threat. How is this any different from a Recon cloaking up?
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:22:00 -
[1584]
Originally by: Lorzion
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ow are people making the logical leep that without nano's, people will need to blob more?
People blob to take massive objectives, like stations or POSs, and not for a 'small roaming gang'. Nano's have NEVER enabled alliances to take down large objectives with few people.
That's re****ulous, but something that seems to be a conception.
In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you. Otherwise, you engage like numbered opponants or tool around an enemies region looking for kills, albiet with less recklessness.
I fail to see hwo these changes will chaneg anything, except the level of caution and impunity that pilots use when deciding to engage, jump into a system, or loiter on a gate taunting the non-nano's opposing gang that could never hurt.
No one has yet to really address how this is game breaking, except for those pilots that enjoyed flying with impunity.
it's almost like he is contradicting himself.
Whoa there, your compelling argument poking holes in my logic has caused all will to live to drain from me. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Lorzion
Minmatar Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:24:00 -
[1585]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
stop talking please i beg you.
Quote: there was no reasonable way to counter it
................................................... i'm done with you idiots.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:24:00 -
[1586]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
Sounds like you missed a lot of kills to nanos. My point is, if the nano's are running away from you then they're obviously not attacking you, so they're no threat. How is this any different from a Recon cloaking up?
Recon's are meant to cloak? They have to uncloak to do damage? When they uncloak they're within weapon range?
When a nano gang zips off the gate, they're still there, waiting. And well out of the range of anything besides another nano'd gang or a nano'd huginn/rapier. They get to choose the engagement, like recons, but they have a level of survivability far and beyond what an uncloaked recon would have. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:25:00 -
[1587]
Originally by: Lorzion
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
stop talking please i beg you.
Quote: there was no reasonable way to counter it
................................................... i'm done with you idiots.
Whoa, another mental bomb dropped by lorzion. The earth is shaken all the way to rationality village. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Re'taka
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:26:00 -
[1588]
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
This will just make it so they have to have help catching you, I don't see it as a major issue, so a cepter has to tackle you first, nbd, MMO's are good for teamwork.
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:27:00 -
[1589]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
Sounds like you missed a lot of kills to nanos. My point is, if the nano's are running away from you then they're obviously not attacking you, so they're no threat. How is this any different from a Recon cloaking up?
Recon's are meant to cloak? They have to uncloak to do damage? When they uncloak they're within weapon range?
When a nano gang zips off the gate, they're still there, waiting. And well out of the range of anything besides another nano'd gang or a nano'd huginn/rapier. They get to choose the engagement, like recons, but they have a level of survivability far and beyond what an uncloaked recon would have.
Thank you for proving my point. Recons can choose their battle just like Nanos. I don't see what's wrong with that.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:27:00 -
[1590]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
No, please, keep talking. This is classic.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:28:00 -
[1591]
have you guys ever heard getting a FLEET of friends? solo pvp should have never been.
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Lorzion
Minmatar Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:30:00 -
[1592]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Lorzion
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kimiyo Ishikawa These changes are universally terrible.
The reason nano ships can outrun blobs is because they are designed to, this is how people fit them, with that purpose in mind. Blobs don't fit for a purpose. If they fit to kill nanos, they WILL kill nanos and DO kill nanos.
Specialization must always define EVE combat, NOT the whines of the disorganized blob or the faulty arguments of terrible devs. The fact that the devs are saying that a ship with t2 rigs and snakes is a normal fit just says alot really.
What does 'outrun the blob' mean btw????
Does it mean placing gates between you and a pursuing blob? Cause if thats the case (and the only really valid one) then you're stupid. Nano'd gang warps no faster than a non nano'd gang of similar ship types.
If you meant the statement by going so ludicrously fast that you're well out of the range of a blob, then staying there zipping around the blob for no reason, then I fail to see what point you're trying to make. There's no reason to go that fast. If you jump into a system, adn discover 10 baddies at the gate, you're ****ign loss dude. You should have used a scout.
If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout, as most nano-gangs dont even need to do.
The nano allowed a group of cruisers to travel soo fast that there was no reasonable way to counter it, and it enabled these crusiers to ignore almost any ship and choose the battles they fought. That's no EVE, that's lameness.
stop talking please i beg you.
Quote: there was no reasonable way to counter it
................................................... i'm done with you idiots.
Whoa, another mental bomb dropped by lorzion. The earth is shaken all the way to rationality village.
what amazes me is how you havn't had one point yourself either. you said there is no reasonable way and that people need to learn to avoid blob warfare by running away. The whole point of nanos is to get in kill a ship then get out before the blob gets there. take a roam somewhere like Morsus mihi with jump bridges in every system, and tell me that nanos are over powered. by the time you kill the ship and start to get out every gate is swarmed with enemys to the point where you can't avoid the blob.
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Lorzion
Minmatar Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:31:00 -
[1593]
Originally by: Stab Wounds have you guys ever heard getting a FLEET of friends? solo pvp should have never been.
get a friend with a heavy nuet or a web
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:32:00 -
[1594]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg <snip> In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.<snip>
<snip>If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout<snip>
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:34:00 -
[1595]
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
/signed
us minmatar slaves built pyramids you know
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Lorzion
Minmatar Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:34:00 -
[1596]
Edited by: Lorzion on 26/07/2008 04:34:41
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
/signed
us minmatar slaves built pyramids you know
/signed
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Andreya
Direct Intent
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:35:00 -
[1597]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
i figure the Devs would understand their own stacking modules.... you have 4 of the same mod....
why not try it with 2 overs and two polys, or two aux thrusters and two nanofibers and see what happens
_________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:37:00 -
[1598]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
People blob to take massive objectives, like stations or POSs, and not for a 'small roaming gang'. Nano's have NEVER enabled alliances to take down large objectives with few people.
From personal experience, massive objectives that justify a 40 ship fleet can very well be a 3-4 ship hostile gang.
If you got reasonable numbers you do not need fast ships that much, if you are small in numbers however superior mobility is the key for anything that you can actually do to hurt the enemy, namely intervening with his logistics and resource acquiring, picking off stray elements from larger fleets.
What a lot of people fear is that with one of the very few options to actually operate in hostile territory taken away it will be a step more in the direction of "how many BS / capitals can each side field".
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Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:40:00 -
[1599]
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
/signed
us minmatar slaves built pyramids you know
/signed (ps. make sure dictors and AFs tie for third in top speed class's ... after inty and eas) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
D4RT N3RDiUS
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:49:00 -
[1600]
Quote: i figure the Devs would understand their own stacking modules.... you have 4 of the same mod....
why not try it with 2 overs and two polys, or two aux thrusters and two nanofibers and see what happens
did you ever read they have a full set of snakes?? lol and is fited for speed mate with the new pach is the max velocity you can have Rigth now with 1 mwd t2 and a hi grade snake you can reach 4.5 k.. so mate is a litle nerf no? and if you read the dev log you cant get animore nanos and overdrive toguether becouse they stack a lot more than only overdives.. this is a full speed setup mate.. lol i dont now who is de dev but he maybe need to play some eve :P really he need to know we dont have paladins here.. oh shit we have sry but they dont weare thongs.. they are ships... THIS IS NOT WOW !!!!
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Tate Aoko
Gryphon Dreaming
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:52:00 -
[1601]
Originally by: XxKatharsisxX Please dont do it!
if my vaga only goes 3 k ill quit the game! Im serious! thats not what i skilled for 3 years
You spent 3 years skilling for one area in an MMO, during which there were countless nerfs to other popular setup's. You didn't see this coming, or even think it was possible?
/facepalm
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:53:00 -
[1602]
*insert pyramid quote here*
Intention is to have a balance between ship classes ( frig/cruiser/BS). Read the points on top of the dev blog. BS/cruiser aren't suited to web frigates to hell so that they can pop them instantly and cruiser shouldn't have frigate speeds on average only because of their plenty low slots. how would you balance this issue? all i hear is whine...no constructive discussion how the boost patch (i call it like that) could be different.
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Togg Bott
Minmatar 801
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:55:00 -
[1603]
ok... i'll be honest and say that i havent read all the posts. i will say i am Minmatar and i dont fly nano's. i have for the last few months trained almost to the point of quitting to fly a command ship and actually be a benifit to my corp. now i can understand SOME of the nerf bat swings... but why nerf the commandship boni? if some one else can explain that one to me... please do so.
and no... you cant have my stuff
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gtcsellalt
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:55:00 -
[1604]
Originally by: Andreya
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Tal Notts
Originally by: Lord EmBra
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Read this CCP!
signed
/signed
us minmatar slaves built pyramids you know
/signed (ps. make sure dictors and AFs tie for third in top speed class's ... after inty and eas)
signed
|
soldieroffortune 258
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:03:00 -
[1605]
Originally by: Stab Wounds warp disruptor shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
are you ****ing serious? thats a load of crap, now blasterboats dont have a way to get in range, you just gave the damn caldari a 20km ****ing stasis webifier CCP
what have you done CCP
I JUST TRAINED FOR MICROWARPDRIVES FOR THE SPEED, and NOW ITS COMPLETELY USELESS WTF IS THIS
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Lotty Granat
Superior Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.26 05:04:00 -
[1606]
A lot has been said and I'm sure no-one will ever read down to this but for what it's worth I think the speed changes look interesting. One area I would question is the balance between the MWD overheat bonus (+50% speed) and the webifiers overheat bonus (+20% range) - these 2 should be balanced against each other a bit more...
Give CCP a chance - Eve is complex. No change will make everyone happy. Remeber they are trying to deliver a fun and balanced game to us and their jobs depend on it, let's have a go on Sisi and be patient for the right balance to be reached...
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Boz Well
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:04:00 -
[1607]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
Originally by: Stab Wounds warp disruptor shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
are you ****ing serious? thats a load of crap, now blasterboats dont have a way to get in range, you just gave the damn caldari a 20km ****ing stasis webifier CCP
what have you done CCP
I JUST TRAINED FOR MICROWARPDRIVES FOR THE SPEED, and NOW ITS COMPLETELY USELESS WTF IS THIS
...
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Re'taka
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.07.26 05:12:00 -
[1608]
Edited by: Re''taka on 26/07/2008 05:14:35
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
Originally by: Stab Wounds warp scrams shuts off mwd \o/
ccp finaly listening to reasin.
are you ****ing serious? thats a load of crap, now blasterboats dont have a way to get in range, you just gave the damn caldari a 20km ****ing stasis webifier CCP
what have you done CCP
I JUST TRAINED FOR MICROWARPDRIVES FOR THE SPEED, and NOW ITS COMPLETELY USELESS WTF IS THIS
Don't feel to bad, if you just trained for MWD's then you really don't need to be playing around in nano fits anyway, they cost alot, and require your nav skills to be almost maxed, as well as cap skills, and gunning skills so you can still hit stuff, and tracking, range, tons of other things, including cybernetics, if you want the implants, biology for the boosters, so if your just now training MWD's then your good, bc you most likly dont have most of the other skills to support them. Aside from that, guys this isnt 1/2 as bad as it looks, you can still nano, you just cant be 100% safe when you do like you used to.
Edit: fixed first quote, check for bold, Its only scrams that stop the MWD from working, read the fricking dev blog instead of just *****in about it here.....
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:19:00 -
[1609]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
-
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.26 05:24:00 -
[1610]
Well I always knew this would be coming.
I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.
PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:26:00 -
[1611]
Originally by: El'Niaga Well I always knew this would be coming.
I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.
PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......
Well thought out? Hardly. It took 4 people only 5 hours to "solve" a problem that has been around for two years.
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Zorok
LEGI0N
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:27:00 -
[1612]
Thank you CCP for finally putting balance back into the game. Regardless what everyone else is complaining about, when missiles and drones can't affect a target because it's speed is insane and the ships don't commit to battle because they basically just run off at a super fast pace in their [vagabonds], you've got some serious balance issues here. I will attest that I have seen roving gangs of vagabond pilots and when you start to see stuff like this in the game, you know that the ships are unbalanced. I have yet to see a roving band of any one particular ship type other than the vagas.
Once again, thank you for saving this game and making it fair and balanced.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Collegium Mechanicae Holding
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Posted - 2008.07.26 05:30:00 -
[1613]
And again, to all those folks who keep repeating "its just a blog, they are going to test everything first!"
Think of all the shady ideas that appear on Sing.
How many of them get through, no matter how much testing and opinion shows them to be crap?
Reaching public testing = 99% chance of seeing a minimally modified version of the idea go live.
I don't even go fast and I can see that such massive overarching changes are asking for dumb trouble, bringing in new problems without being a reliable fix (a fix for a problem that's not That big and could have been solved more simply)
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:30:00 -
[1614]
Originally by: Zorok Thank you CCP for finally putting balance back into the game. Regardless what everyone else is complaining about, when missiles and drones can't affect a target because it's speed is insane and the ships don't commit to battle because they basically just run off at a super fast pace in their [vagabonds], you've got some serious balance issues here. I will attest that I have seen roving gangs of vagabond pilots and when you start to see stuff like this in the game, you know that the ships are unbalanced. I have yet to see a roving band of any one particular ship type other than the vagas.
Once again, thank you for saving this game and making it fair and balanced.
I guess CCP didn't give Vaga's that +5% bonus to max velocity per level for a reason huh?
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Boz Well
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:31:00 -
[1615]
Originally by: Zorok Thank you CCP for finally putting balance back into the game. Regardless what everyone else is complaining about, when missiles and drones can't affect a target because it's speed is insane and the ships don't commit to battle because they basically just run off at a super fast pace in their [vagabonds], you've got some serious balance issues here. I will attest that I have seen roving gangs of vagabond pilots and when you start to see stuff like this in the game, you know that the ships are unbalanced. I have yet to see a roving band of any one particular ship type other than the vagas.
Once again, thank you for saving this game and making it fair and balanced.
Just because there's a problem, just because there's an imbalance, doesn't mean that ANY solution is a great thing that's worth of praise. There are LOTS of ways to address this situation, and not all of them involve a sledgehammer-like approach and throwing a dozen large changes into the game at once.
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mamolian
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:32:00 -
[1616]
Originally by: Zorok T I have yet to see a roving band of any one particular ship type other than the vagas.
Ah dont worry.. Just start inventing Arazu's n wait for the profit.. Incidently.. it'll take bands of arazus to damp a single target after the last "balance".. -----------
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Miasia
Konstrukteure der Zukunft United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 05:35:00 -
[1617]
Hi,
think about the last patches.... They made Eve always better, not worse. Dont cry to hard, it wont be the end of Eve or the galaxy.
Think about .. .. the Torp nerf .. the Eos nerf .. the Drone nerf .. the carrier nerf
Think about .. .. paper .. stone .. scissor
Best Regards
Miasia
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Boz Well
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:00:00 -
[1618]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Zurrar
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: El'Niaga Well I always knew this would be coming.
I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.
PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......
Well thought out? Hardly. It took 4 people only 5 hours to "solve" a problem that has been around for two years.
im sure they took alot of the ideas from the forums...
stop crying seriously man...
Obviously they took too many ideas from the forums if they plan on changing so much.
Seriously. Pick the best of the ideas, implement those, and then reassess the situation. Don't throw every single suggestion into the game, after 5 hours of pondering it, and change everything completely around. While some of the devs apparently don't play the game at all (), most of us do, and it takes us a lot longer to train skills and earn the ISK to pay for casual mods (like a full set of HG snakes). It might be easy to make sweeping changes if you don't play the game and just plug HG snakes into EFT, I think most of us would prefer you use a little finesse in making these changes.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:00:00 -
[1619]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 26/07/2008 06:02:59
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Lorizon: So you're telling me you need 5km + cruisers to avoid people with jump bridges?
That's ludicrous. You're going to get a response from teh defenders no matter what. Jump bridges changes nothing except they can skip a few jumps ahead of you. Doesnt prevent a non-nano'd gang from (gasp) scouting ahead to avoid the ambush or going an alternate way when one is discovered.
And for the Recon chick: proving your point? Recons can choose their kill only IN a single system. In addition, once they've chosen, they cant succesfully disengaged if, say, 10 friends jump in.
Nano's can not only choose their kill in a system, but in any system by going so bloody fast they can avoid gate camps. In addition, unlike recons, if stuff goes south, they can just piont in a direction in space and speed off, disengaging. Unlike a recon who's stuck there with there crappy choice.
I'll post it again in case you missed it. These are your words.
Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 04:36:47
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg <snip> In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.<snip>
<snip>If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout<snip>
Your logic is quite flawed my friend. I do agree that there are SOME special cases where nanos are too overpowered but a nerf across the board is a silly idea.
And that's good if they are going fast enough to avoid gate camps. That just shows how effective blockcade runners can be.
How then can you not 'across the board' nerf the things? If they're OP in one instance, they're going to OP in another. Unless you're referring to the number of nerfs associated with the nano nerf. Well in that case, we'll see what testing shows, but I honestly cant see what you're getting at; every single mod was reduced and stacking-penaltied with others. How do you propose to not 'across the board' nerf the things without similary reducing everything to get cruisers back down below 4km/s?
And, what do you mean by:
"And that's good if they are going fast enough to avoid gate camps. That just shows how effective blockade runners can be."
First of all, blockade runners are an already existing class of ship, transports, so dont go throwing labels around willy nilly. Secondly, if they're that effective (at running from gates) then maybe they're OP'd like I've said they are?
A gang of nanos can (saying this for the 20th time in this thread) choose the fight they want, disengage when they went, leave an area if they please, and are near invulnerable when they engage to anything but another nanogang, a group of huginns/rapiers, or a desync.
For the reasons above, its become unfun to defend against a bunch of nano-***s because you're soo damn limited. And its unfun to attack (all small gang mind you) in anything but nano's because youre defenders are going to be zipping around your non-nanogang, never engaging, but always waiting.
How is this not appear broken to you people? There was variety in tactics and setups for small gang pvp before nano's, it doesnt exist now. ----------------- Friends Forever |
xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:02:00 -
[1620]
[Ishtar, New Setup 1] Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Nanofiber Internal Structure II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I
i have Zor's imp for mwd, and 'rogue' imp for 3% speed and 3% speed bonus
this fit goes 4km/s in straight line
how much will it be with the nerf?
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:02:00 -
[1621]
This is a stupidity nerf. They say we nerfing speed, but they nerfing lot of shiptypes and modules for no brain F1-F8 Caldari pilots. They why wants wants to be made of the game to crap ? I dont know. Who make it the MWD ? The CCP ? Why make it for MWD 550% speed bonus ? If they want nerfing speed, just should be nerfing to 300% and that is over 45% speed nerf. They say "we not nerfing the MWD thrust percent, better if nerfing 8 modules and more then 10 ship make to crap" . LOL. Hey CCP guys try to use your brains.
One idea. Scripts with t2 modules:
Thrusting script 1: 200% speed bonus, no cap penalty Thrusting script 2: 250% speed bonus, 12,5% cap penalty Thrusting script 3: 300% speed bonus, 25% cap penalty and etc.
Web script: 10km range 90% str 12km range 70% str 14km range 50% str
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The Ice
Caldari The All-Seeing Eye G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:06:00 -
[1622]
Edited by: The Ice on 26/07/2008 06:06:46 1 years before i total addict.
But now: pls CCP ff*uu*cc*kk* this game really and i can finish it finelly..:)
thx. --
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Saint |
Machanara
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:07:00 -
[1623]
Edited by: Machanara on 26/07/2008 06:09:27 Well, I have a suggestion for all the NANO-user-whiners now. If you want to keep your speed, thats fine with me. Give us weapons that can actually hit you and do some good damage then. Because with precision Hvy missles hitting a HAC going 6km/s ++ I do 0.0 dmg. So where exactly does that fit into the "fair play" doctrine??
IT DOESNT!
So either you bite the bullet and CCP nerfs missles and guns, or you take the nerf with the speed. Becasue a LOT of people in this game are fricking tried of not being able to hit you with any weapon system currently in the game and you running around scot-free.
So make your decision.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:08:00 -
[1624]
Originally by: Cutesmile This is a stupidity nerf. They say we nerfing speed, but they nerfing lot of shiptypes and modules for no brain F1-F8 Caldari pilots. They why wants wants to be made of the game to crap ? I dont know. Who make it the MWD ? The CCP ? Why make it for MWD 550% speed bonus ? If they want nerfing speed, just should be nerfing to 300% and that is over 45% speed nerf. They say "we not nerfing the MWD thrust percent, better if nerfing 8 modules and more then 10 ship make to crap" . LOL. Hey CCP guys try to use your brains.
One idea. Scripts with t2 modules:
Thrusting script 1: 200% speed bonus, no cap penalty Thrusting script 2: 250% speed bonus, 12,5% cap penalty Thrusting script 3: 300% speed bonus, 25% cap penalty and etc.
Web script: 10km range 90% str 12km range 70% str 14km range 50% str
MWD were fine before rigs, boosters, and improved speed modules. The speed modules need the balancing, not the MWD that's always been the same. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:11:00 -
[1625]
Epic troll CCP Wrangler, the only way you could have done it better was to have the read more go to a rick roll.
errr wait, I think he is serious
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:17:00 -
[1626]
Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 06:17:44 Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 06:17:33
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 26/07/2008 06:02:59
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Lorizon: So you're telling me you need 5km + cruisers to avoid people with jump bridges?
That's ludicrous. You're going to get a response from teh defenders no matter what. Jump bridges changes nothing except they can skip a few jumps ahead of you. Doesnt prevent a non-nano'd gang from (gasp) scouting ahead to avoid the ambush or going an alternate way when one is discovered.
And for the Recon chick: proving your point? Recons can choose their kill only IN a single system. In addition, once they've chosen, they cant succesfully disengaged if, say, 10 friends jump in.
Nano's can not only choose their kill in a system, but in any system by going so bloody fast they can avoid gate camps. In addition, unlike recons, if stuff goes south, they can just piont in a direction in space and speed off, disengaging. Unlike a recon who's stuck there with there crappy choice.
I'll post it again in case you missed it. These are your words.
Edited by: Tixxie Lix on 26/07/2008 04:36:47
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg <snip> In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.<snip>
<snip>If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it if you failed to use a scout<snip>
Your logic is quite flawed my friend. I do agree that there are SOME special cases where nanos are too overpowered but a nerf across the board is a silly idea.
And that's good if they are going fast enough to avoid gate camps. That just shows how effective blockcade runners can be.
How then can you not 'across the board' nerf the things? If they're OP in one instance, they're going to OP in another. Unless you're referring to the number of nerfs associated with the nano nerf. Well in that case, we'll see what testing shows, but I honestly cant see what you're getting at; every single mod was reduced and stacking-penaltied with others. How do you propose to not 'across the board' nerf the things without similary reducing everything to get cruisers back down below 4km/s?
And, what do you mean by:
"And that's good if they are going fast enough to avoid gate camps. That just shows how effective blockade runners can be."
First of all, blockade runners are an already existing class of ship, transports, so dont go throwing labels around willy nilly. Secondly, if they're that effective (at running from gates) then maybe they're OP'd like I've said they are?
A gang of nanos can (saying this for the 20th time in this thread) choose the fight they want, disengage when they went, leave an area if they please, and are near invulnerable when they engage to anything but another nanogang, a group of huginns/rapiers, or a desync.
For the reasons above, its become unfun to defend against a bunch of nano-***s because you're soo damn limited. And its unfun to attack (all small gang mind you) in anything but nano's because youre defenders are going to be zipping around your non-nanogang, never engaging, but always waiting.
How is this not appear broken to you people? There was variety in tactics and setups for small gang pvp before nano's, it doesnt exist now.
Yes I am referring to the Blockade Runner transport because it is built for speed. Vagas are built for speed. I don't see what the problem is if a fast ship got past your **** poor gate camp. And for the last time people, there are other ways of fighting nanos other than having another nano gang or Rapier/Huginn. I don't know why you say there's no variety in tactics for small gangs, there are plenty, it's your fault you're not utilizing them properly.
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Siffa
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:21:00 -
[1627]
CCP,
While I can agree that the current nano-***gotry is getting out of hand I beg you to keep at least the current things in mind:
1) If you remove the minmatar role of going faster than everyone else, then there is absolutely no reason to fly minnie ships anymore. I know you'll agree that that would be a great loss to the game
2) If you remove the possibility for pilots to work solo and keep alive due to their speed and an expensive fitting - then you are effectively pushing this game even more towards blob-warfare and "bring friends!". While multiplayer is all good and fun, you should still retain the choice to do so or not.
3) How are you gonna reimburse the ppl who just lost bilions of isk on snake sets and poly fitted ships?
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Reaver Con
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:25:00 -
[1628]
Two ideas and one concern.
1. Instead of empowering a Warp scrambler to be able to shut down an MWD, why not use a script to alter its function like the Tracking Disruptor?
2. What about introducing a Hybrid module, A MWD/AB hybrid. This module would combine the thrust of an AB with the "mass reducing" effect of the MWD. This module would be affected by both webbers and scrammers, while still providing the user with SOME boost to speed when webbed or scrammed.
And finally the concern, please do not nerf the Blockade runner like CCP did the last time they attempted to nerf speed.
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Tillakna
Gallente Rim Collection RC Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:32:00 -
[1629]
Originally by: TheTrueHorror
Love the changes.
A good way to promote guerilla warfare might be to get rid of local. This would allow small gangs to utilise stealth more effectively for hit and run tactics (tracking an enemy across systems would be much more difficult without the local window). It would also promote more engagements as forces would not be immediately aware of the size of an opposing gang from simply glancing at the local window. You can keep the local chat window there, just get rid of the player list and the number of players in system.
...oh dear... the mess...
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:33:00 -
[1630]
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: El'Niaga Well I always knew this would be coming.
I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.
PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......
Well thought out? Hardly. It took 4 people only 5 hours to "solve" a problem that has been around for two years.
5 hours?
proof or stfu
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:35:00 -
[1631]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Tixxie Lix
Originally by: El'Niaga Well I always knew this would be coming.
I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.
PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......
Well thought out? Hardly. It took 4 people only 5 hours to "solve" a problem that has been around for two years.
5 hours?
proof or stfu
"That being said, this is what four of us came up with during the course of a mere five hour meeting on the current speed crisis:"
Your proof. Read the blog next time.
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:35:00 -
[1632]
I'm not surprised about speed rebalance and nano nerf because ccp is going to make the game more easier for gate campers who doing nothing, just siting there at the gate and camp/ for them this will be the big boost cuz they will catch everything now without problem.
MINMATAR race will be the worst race in game, no point to fit shield extenders anymore cuz most of the MINMATAR ships tanked with nano/speed combination so it could be really painfull for MINMATARS after this patch. ( you will have to combine other modueles or just spend bilions and buy snake's)---> again and again cuz you will lost them sometimes and sometimes will be very expensive.
With upcoming patch more then anything CCP will boost isk farmers cause it would be much easier to kill a tackler in the belt cause there will not be warp disruptors and mwd so guys who like to spend all their time in belts now have big reasons to celebrate.
I dont understand what game developers doing again!?
With speed rebalance and nano nerf we will lost alot, we who use to kill by roaming around the map, now it will go more on fleets, and camping wich is the most boring thing in this game.
Why not add agro timer from npc's and nerf the cloak cuz its the big problem and big help to those who are lazy and don't like to work for anything besides sitting there and making isk.
Lets remove local from 0.0 space cuz its again big help to those guys who are lazy, but they will be scared cuz they will not have their realistic help local channel where they can see who is jumping and how many of them so they can react soo realistic and put on that gate even bigger numbers so it could be really nice lazy fight after it they do the nice easy salvaging and they put those honored kill mails on their killboard.
Shame on you all, this game should be developing different.
But let me be honest, very big % of ppl not pvp'ing so much, alot of them playing in empire cause it's much easier to play boss there with tons of noobs who are coming trough the doors everydays.
We would like to meet those guys who are working on development of this game, i bet they don't know nothing about real pvp'ing.
We play this game alot of years and this will be not good in our opinion, speed rebalance/nerf will only ruin the base and make things worst then they are atm but who cares cuz it's obvious that we are not majority here.
Imagine Vagabond after this patch!? What you will fit on the HAC after they cut and nerf his speed!?
Let's everybody sit at the gate and wait :P
Guys this will not going to be good for players who dont have bigger/bigest numbers and those giant fleets, this will kill the good old roaming around the map.
Sorry for my bad english.
Cheers.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:35:00 -
[1633]
Originally by: Siffa
1) If you remove the minmatar role of going faster than everyone else, then there is absolutely no reason to fly minnie ships anymore. I know you'll agree that that would be a great loss to the game
CCP doesn't do this. minmatar will always be faster/more agile/lower signature than other ships.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:36:00 -
[1634]
Guess this will drown in sheer mass of posts, but I'll try anyway.
What I'm currently wondering is if we agree that the real problem are HACs going extremely fast due to effects from boosters, ganglinks added on top of a good speedfit, why go into the direction of generally lowering HAC speeds instead of balancing the interaction of those modifiers?
Let me elaborate on the example of the vagabond: I fit purely t2 mods / t1 rigs, using 2x OD, 2x nanofiber, a shield res rig to plug the kinetic hole and low friction nozzle rigs for extra agility. With my skills I end up with (imho) fairly good acceleration, top speed around 5.04km/s, and around 5.54km/s applying my leadership bonus with skirmish warfare lvl5, slowing down to 580m/s to do decent dps and running mwd for one minute given a 90% charged capacitor.
Honestly, I dont think this is overpowered at all, its possible to hit it while going full speed, and easy to catch in the big picture and certainly not breaking anybodys game.
Now lets add a max-skilled claymore as gangbooster running a ganglink, topspeed climbs to 6.83km/s, still manageable while I admit it gets increased survivability in roaming gangs in case you manage to keep the CS alive. Sidenote: this would be lower with reduced ganglink efficiency ofc, dont know if its really necessary tho, read on.
If we would go on putting snake implants in the mix, we very clearly end up breaking a speed barrier which is unreasonable, with HG snakes I'd break 10.5km/s at my skills which are decent but not top notch, while boosted by said claymore, running the aforementioned vagabond fit.
Granted, this comes at a price, but here it starts breaking peoples games imho, since the chance to catch such a ship becomes very low even with organized efforts, this applies to inties just the same btw.
Now the problem is obviously piling up modifiers that affect speed, its not necessarily that implants or gang links or polycarbs itself are too powerful (see the above example with claymore), its rather they are too powerful combined.
Ideas on what to change (read: what I'd like to see):
1) reduction in polycarbon effect to be inline with t2 nanofiber (1x projectile burstI + 1x projectile collisionI ~= 1x gyroII, while 1x polycarbonI > 1x nanofiberII).
2) additional stacking penalty between implants/boosters/ganglinks, the idea is if you are using all of them together you end up with severe reduction in effect, I'm thinking along the lines of 1st effect 100%, 2nd effect 33%, 3rd effect 10%, just to take some numbers out of nowhere.
So much for this idea, I'm still curious to see whats actually on sisi
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Tixxie Lix
Outer Heaven
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:42:00 -
[1635]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Guess this will drown in sheer mass of posts, but I'll try anyway.
What I'm currently wondering is if we agree that the real problem are HACs going extremely fast due to effects from boosters, ganglinks added on top of a good speedfit, why go into the direction of generally lowering HAC speeds instead of balancing the interaction of those modifiers?
Let me elaborate on the example of the vagabond: I fit purely t2 mods / t1 rigs, using 2x OD, 2x nanofiber, a shield res rig to plug the kinetic hole and low friction nozzle rigs for extra agility. With my skills I end up with (imho) fairly good acceleration, top speed around 5.04km/s, and around 5.54km/s applying my leadership bonus with skirmish warfare lvl5, slowing down to 580m/s to do decent dps and running mwd for one minute given a 90% charged capacitor.
Honestly, I dont think this is overpowered at all, its possible to hit it while going full speed, and easy to catch in the big picture and certainly not breaking anybodys game.
Now lets add a max-skilled claymore as gangbooster running a ganglink, topspeed climbs to 6.83km/s, still manageable while I admit it gets increased survivability in roaming gangs in case you manage to keep the CS alive. Sidenote: this would be lower with reduced ganglink efficiency ofc, dont know if its really necessary tho, read on.
If we would go on putting snake implants in the mix, we very clearly end up breaking a speed barrier which is unreasonable, with HG snakes I'd break 10.5km/s at my skills which are decent but not top notch, while boosted by said claymore, running the aforementioned vagabond fit.
Granted, this comes at a price, but here it starts breaking peoples games imho, since the chance to catch such a ship becomes very low even with organized efforts, this applies to inties just the same btw.
Now the problem is obviously piling up modifiers that affect speed, its not necessarily that implants or gang links or polycarbs itself are too powerful (see the above example with claymore), its rather they are too powerful combined.
Ideas on what to change (read: what I'd like to see):
1) reduction in polycarbon effect to be inline with t2 nanofiber (1x projectile burstI + 1x projectile collisionI ~= 1x gyroII, while 1x polycarbonI > 1x nanofiberII).
2) additional stacking penalty between implants/boosters/ganglinks, the idea is if you are using all of them together you end up with severe reduction in effect, I'm thinking along the lines of 1st effect 100%, 2nd effect 33%, 3rd effect 10%, just to take some numbers out of nowhere.
So much for this idea, I'm still curious to see whats actually on sisi
^ this.
I agree, it's the way they're all stacked that's the problem. There's not enough stacking penalty as it reaches the higher speeds. It's not really the mods/implants/boosters, just the combination.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:46:00 -
[1636]
Was PvP impossible, before the Kali expansion when ludicrous speeds suddenly became the flavor of the year?
Sure there where some early Nano Domi with Snake Sets and Faction MWD but they were still rare. People used a variety of ships and setups and occassionally lost their ships, when they jumped into the wrong system.
The problem with nano is, that it offeres to much with to few downsides. Yes nanoships can die and I have personally killed a few. But it really started to **** me off, when the Nanoships simply disengaged and left the area when they met a force they could not beat.
Nanoships can be destroyed, but there are only few options that have really a chance to kill them. Most of them will simply drive them away. To kill a nanoship, the nanopilot needs to make the first mistake and start fight in a situation he cannot win.
PvP will still happen even if guys like TRI and PL lose a few more ships and *gasp* might have mine a day or two, to replace losses.
Sniping Cruisers like the Muninn and Eagle might return to PvP. Even Tracking Computers and Target Painters may become interesting. Jamming Falcons sitting at 200km will of course be the new flavor, but lets see how this plays out.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:47:00 -
[1637]
and hmm, if a vagabond can't hit with the mwd on, then what is the problem of only being able to use your mwd in shorter bursts to get into/out of range
oh and SAVE THE NANO CARRIER!!!!
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Huan CK
Gallente Koshaku
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:47:00 -
[1638]
*Sigh*
As much as I wanted a nano nerf (I fly nanos myself, I know they're good ;) ), I was hoping for ideas on "how to stop them" rather than "let's cripple them" solutions.
The scrambler change is a nice idea, but you'd want to increase their ranges further, since nanoships will make it easy to avoid those ranges.
Also, look at the speed nerf. If you have an MWD running, you get a 500% increased signature. You needed to go 4km/s to evade fire, otherwise you'd instapop with such a big signature radius. IF you reduce max speed by that much, you need to decrease the signature penalty. Change it to something like 200%, not 500!!
Also, keep in mind that the speed modules take away all your tankability (on most ships anyhow). You're not going to last long once your "speed-tank" fails. With all those changes you'll want to make sure that nano is stopable, but not dead, I hope.
I for one would be sad to see all my nano ships sit in a hangar doing nothing cause they cannot. I'd rather see them functional, but stopable :)
There's really nothing more to say, but it hits a bit too hard. Look more into options to stop nano than shutting it down. It's so much fun running at high speeds :) ----------
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:48:00 -
[1639]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Sniping Cruisers like the Muninn and Eagle might return to PvP. Even Tracking Computers and Target Painters may become interesting. Jamming Falcons sitting at 200km will of course be the new flavor, but lets see how this plays out.
I though falcons were already the flavor
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:49:00 -
[1640]
Originally by: Huan CK
The scrambler change is a nice idea, but you'd want to increase their ranges further, since nanoships will make it easy to avoid those ranges.
37k really isn't that short of a range. (Nor unrealistic for most decent gangs flying around currently.)
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jongalt
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:52:00 -
[1641]
lololololololololololol
-jg.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 06:55:00 -
[1642]
CCP will killing the small skilled PvPer corps. One simple passive Drake will be destroying lot of t2 ships. How mutch skill pont need for Hacs and Recons and how mutch need for Drake ? I see, when a blobbers Blob pilots say it, this patch fine. Small groups could fighting them succesfull before this patch. The nanos could to use hit and run tactics, they could to catch capitals with nanoships. What happens then ? I say it. 10 unskilled 3 months Drake pilots will be destroy it, a larger skilled middle ship group. Nice idea CCP. Skill versus blob. Long live the F1-F8 script again.
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Koti Resci
Knighthawk Light Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:07:00 -
[1643]
Edited by: Koti Resci on 26/07/2008 07:09:40 Page 65!!!
Originally by: Tixxie Lix Need for Speed
I think this devblog from just after Revelations 1 came out outlines a lot of problems still in existence today. Yes, I remember the devblog. Thanks for digging it up, Tixxie :P
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Huan CK
The scrambler change is a nice idea, but you'd want to increase their ranges further, since nanoships will make it easy to avoid those ranges.
37k really isn't that short of a range. (Nor unrealistic for most decent gangs flying around currently.)
For a disruptor on a Gallente Recon or EAS, sure. But if I'm not mistaken, the changes will only affect warp scramblers, not warp disruptors and not warp bubbles.
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon 37k is not the scramblerrange.
Scramblerrange will be more around 10-12k with overheat. As in the devblog it was started that the changes will go to the scramblers, not to the disruptors.
Sorry?
Arazu, domi scram + claymore in gang + overheated. This isn't as unrealistic as a 15k/sec vaga, and it has a 37.5k 2pt scram.
Sure, it's not as unrealistic as a 15k/sec vaga, but it's still more unrealistic that a vaga going at any ludicrous speed -- which is very easily obtainable currently.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:09:00 -
[1644]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon 37k is not the scramblerrange.
Scramblerrange will be more around 10-12k with overheat. As in the devblog it was started that the changes will go to the scramblers, not to the disruptors.
Sorry?
Arazu, domi scram + claymore in gang + overheated. This isn't as unrealistic as a 15k/sec vaga, and it has a 37.5k 2pt scram.
but I don't have recon ships 5, A friend with a claymore, or a domi scram
forum whine time!!!!
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:09:00 -
[1645]
Originally by: Death One If you do it to my lovely vagabond, I'll leave the game with both of my accounts. I like to play eve because nano ships are amazing. But on a gank ship it's just f1-f8. If you care about my opinion, please don't touch nanos. It's my wings. It's my freedom.
Dont worry if u stay more two week in game, u will be see it, how to destroying your vaga in 1v1 a simple crow.
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:09:00 -
[1646]
Originally by: Cutesmile CCP will killing the small skilled PvPer corps. One simple passive Drake will be destroying lot of t2 ships. How mutch skill pont need for Hacs and Recons and how mutch need for Drake ? I see, when a blobbers Blob pilots say it, this patch fine. Small groups could fighting them succesfull before this patch. The nanos could to use hit and run tactics, they could to catch capitals with nanoships. What happens then ? I say it. 10 unskilled 3 months Drake pilots will be destroy it, a larger skilled middle ship group. Nice idea CCP. Skill versus blob. Long live the F1-F8 script again.
Thats great and realistic:P Anyway Drake tanked many hac's, now Drake will kill HAC's without any problem wich is poor and unreal that ship worth few piece of mills rule this game:P Does CCP understand it!? hehehehe thats a question now.
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Daelan Lok'errt
SoT
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:12:00 -
[1647]
Originally by: Machanara Edited by: Machanara on 26/07/2008 06:09:27 Well, I have a suggestion for all the NANO-user-whiners now. If you want to keep your speed, thats fine with me. Give us weapons that can actually hit you and do some good damage then. Because with precision Hvy missles hitting a HAC going 6km/s ++ I do 0.0 dmg. So where exactly does that fit into the "fair play" doctrine??
IT DOESNT!
just another example of the people that CCP makes this nerf for. they don't know about neuts, they don't know about webs, i doubt they know that the interceptor can just as effectively be used against nano HACs not just against hunters in belts. using precision missiles and rigs for explosion velocity? are you mad, what sort of DPS would you have against that Malachim over there then? all they want is to be able to never have to leave the safety of their hunting-fitted raven and CCP feels the same way it seems.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:17:00 -
[1648]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 26/07/2008 07:21:11 I think it is funny that it only took a 5 hours!
Speed has only been a problem for a while and it gets fixed within a five hour meeting. I mean you just nerfed my Nano Phoon all to **** last summer! Next time do it all at once so I don't waste another year of training for Rapier, Sabre, Vaga and others. Five hours and a year of training is gone!
Lag has been a problem for atleast 3 1/2 years and you STILL can't come up with shit.
Serious to those guys that sat in a room for five hours, next time try constructive thinking and not just blurt out stupid ****ing ideas and post it in a blog.
Kinda like I am doing atm! I mean if you ban me for my harsh words then you need to ban those devs for being dumb as hell!
You guys are like Congress for the US. You can't get anything right and you are just helping those on the inside. Or the top 5%!
Really funny how eve is so much like real life.
Money talks and bullshit walks!
CCP you suck ballz! |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:43:00 -
[1649]
about freaking time.
i am really dissapointed by ccp's lack of interest in their own game.. if something is as imbalanced as speed is then you don't wait years to fix the problem, you fix it instantly and then find a good solution within few days...
atleast ccp got their heads out their asses.. so now we just have to wait 5 more years and maybe they have adressed some of the major issues...
well we are still awaiting that skill queuer on .. most be 6 year now... baaahhhh... sucks
____________________
for the changes, if anything disable the mwd then it would have to stop the boost instantly or the duration is more then enough for the person to get in hit you and be out again, or just go disengage no prob I declare war on stupidity |
kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:43:00 -
[1650]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 26/07/2008 07:44:43 Nobody else is posting and I still can't sleep. So here is another for ya Nozh! Your stroking the beard part, on the blog! From the looks of it, that hasn't been the only thing your use to stroking. You SUCK! You make eve suck! PLZ to walk into oncoming traffic or something.
If you have an eve character do us all a favor in the eve community and add that piece of shit to the terminate pile. You really don't know how to play this game! |
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:45:00 -
[1651]
Lets everybody fly Drakes and at least it will be realistic:P
CCP, give us all the favor and don't boost/nerf anything more cause obvious is that you are very confused.
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Gods Coldblood
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:45:00 -
[1652]
Edited by: Gods Coldblood on 26/07/2008 07:45:35 I seriously think this is going to far... I dont like moan about CCP changes to the game, i like to think i adapt to every new environment im faced with.
So then, we have now ingame ships like the falcon that can shut ur ship down to the point where you couldn't fight back
eveen if you wanted to but you had the small change of getting away if you were lucky. SO then CCP and the amazing Dev's
decide, " wouldn't it be a really cool if we could make a module than can turn another players module off and keep them warp
scrambled at the same time!! " I can see where this is going sooner or later we will have lots of other modules out that can
basicly shut down your ship to the point where u cant actually do anything...
As for my Blaster boat i have come to love, me thinks its future is in the Devs hands
P.S WTB New Dev's ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Anxiety |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:46:00 -
[1653]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 26/07/2008 07:48:57
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 26/07/2008 07:44:43 Nobody else is posting and I still can't sleep. So here is another for ya Nozh! Your stroking the beard part, on the blog! From the looks of it, that hasn't been the only thing your use to stroking. You SUCK! You make eve suck! PLZ to walk into oncoming traffic or something.
If you have an eve character do us all a favor in the eve community and add that piece of shit to the terminate pile. You really don't know how to play this game!
:DDDD We will need i think Elite IV MMO. Pls Mister David Braben and Ian Bell read this post.
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Escobar Noreaga
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:47:00 -
[1654]
the Emoragetears in this thread put a warm fuzzy feeling in my belly
Quote: null
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Amanda Avskalare
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:53:00 -
[1655]
Don't nerf Gallente Don't boost Caldari (its fine if u boost there precision missiles though..)
Now, if you all stop blobing, there will be no need for a way to counter blobs!! wOOt!!! And now to fix the lag.. oh, whait with no blobs there will be much less lag!! 2x wOOt!!
oh.. whait.. u can't stop blobing can u.. it's obvious that more ppl = more power... oh well..
whait!! make a stacking penalty f÷r every ship on grid that kicks in when local goes above 200!! that would fix jita to!! AND the ever growing misson hubs!! fracking amazing!!!
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:54:00 -
[1656]
as a missile user, these changes are ultra groovy brother
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.26 07:57:00 -
[1657]
Wow this is still going strong. Anyway, to those muppets who can't read, the warp disruptors are not going to stop MWDs. Warp scramblers - you know, those modules you never fit because they only go to 6.5km or so normally - they will disrupt the MWD.
So that's four pages of totally inaccurate whines we can delete right now... ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:01:00 -
[1658]
Edited by: mishkof on 26/07/2008 08:00:54
Originally by: Wil Smithx
The blasterboat is already dead, this is just another nail in the coffin.
Theres not any reason to use blasters if you can use torps or lasers now. Even projectiles get to hit at 20km... Blasters need a damage increase imo
Nanos killed the blaster boat.
I know not everyone in the community can remember the mutilation videos, but the key to soloing used to be packing a big punch and killing your enemy quickly to GTFO.
Now that is irrelevant with nanos, as there is a far larger margin for error. All it takes is 3 bil ISK to mask your horrible tactical decisions.
Also we are gonna see who forget to scout and use a scanner with these changes and your single best pilots will actually mean something now instead of just a guy who can go 10K plus.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:02:00 -
[1659]
Do you have any idea how much will changing webs to 50%, making MWDs disableable, and nod boosting ABs (indeed, they will actually nerf higher end ones) will completely change PVP mechanics of EVE?
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:05:00 -
[1660]
Originally by: ChuckNorris CRO Lets everybody fly Drakes and at least it will be realistic:P
CCP, give us all the favor and don't boost/nerf anything more cause obvious is that you are very confused.
Oh wait my main have BC lvl5 and heavy missiles skills. I think i starting now the Caldari cruiser lvl5 for Nighthawk and lets get ready the rumble. Hey CCP i need more 20km/sec speed missiles and 20k/s explosion velocity and i will be fine and the game will be more realistic. :D Oh i see when cried the Caldaris, less training time for missiles, best achura class in the game, no missed shot, useless tracking distruptor, heavily boosted ECM. Now they can hit anything. Just a question for them ? Anyone shot with AC or blaster a scratching shot or miss ? Just try to use when a ship staying for those guns optimal and missing the shot or use against them a weapon distruptor.
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Ishkara Blaine
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:10:00 -
[1661]
Edited by: Ishkara Blaine on 26/07/2008 08:12:16 OK...I've read the first 3.5 pages and the last 1...so I apologise in advance if this has already been said.
First I really like the intention of the ideas; I have always found BS's travelling at 4k+/sec disturbing. But...
- I agree that it looks like it reduces guerilla tactics, so this is deeply worrying as someone who enjoys small gangs. Testing on sisi will probably clarify what needs to be changed.
- The ability to run away makes people more likely to take risks. Which means more PvP, even if it is frustrating at the end (ie. they run away). Personally, I like to be able to run away, and I feel like I have succeeded when one or two stragglers die while the rest flee.
- It also seems to be a boost to gate campers. MWD & Cloak will still work, but anyone unfortunate enough to lose cloak (or be unable to cloak) faces almost certain death. At the moment I can't see any way to have a chance of surviving gate camps other than Bringing a Bigger Blob (BaBB (tm)).
- Affecting MWDs by scramblers but not disruptors, bubbles and 'dictors seemd very odd.
- It is also deeply worrying that so much is being changed at once. In such circumstances balance is very likely to be lost completely.
---
I have no real solutions to the above concerns, but as I said I like the original stated intention. However, once thing did occur to me:
Not sure if it is at all practical, but when the sensor booster 'nerfs' were brought in, scripts were added to allow something like the old behaviour. Could the same be done with either ships or MWDs?
eg.
- An MWD script that makes it immune to warp scrambling, but reduces speed boost to 250%.
- A ship script that says 'I want my BS to go 4k/sec' BUT which reduces armour by 50%.
The above scripts are not really well thought thru and are there to inspire comments from more experienced players. But the *intention* here is to ameliorate the sudden changes and so reduce the likelihood of massive imbalance.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:11:00 -
[1662]
Well, I stopped reading the thread somewhere around page 40 yesterday evening my time. I will just add some more knee-jerk comments (wow just the thing the already worked up community needed) before I read up the last pages, so just ignore the now obsolete comments.
Caldari: These changes are a huge boost for them. With the reduction of the overall speed of ships the size cruiser upwards, there is now no way of reducing incoming missile damage with defender horrible broken. ThatÆs while missiles are already the only weapon systems not bothered with tracking, optimal and falloff.
ThatÆs not all, they already have the best fleet sniper and, with the nerf to webs and nano setups, the most powerfull racial EW.
Amarr: The reduced speed will help with the already good tracking lasers have. Obviously the changes will hit their nano ships as well, but then the racial EW with tracking disruptors might save the already good curse. Afterall amarr was never supposed to be zipping around anyway.
Gallente: Enough people have commented on the effect to blaster boats (scram acting as web, their own web strength reduced and thus even more problems with tracking etc.).
The recons and EAS will get a slight boost thanks to scrams. While Im at ità the scrams. CCP created scripts for modules with two effects, forcing people to choose one. Now they are going to create another module with two effects, and a rather powerfull, that does not need scripts at all. ThatÆs some good planning there.
Minmatar: Oh man, where to start.
The Hyena will probably end up a bit slower than now, thus dying even faster. Eve if not, the racial EW got shafted and is rather useless now. On the plus side, this will free up the midslots for our other great EW that are target painters.
Same goes for the recons. They were extremely usefull because of nano gangs / ships. With nano ships bigger than ceptors pretty much gone (besides some people with billions upon billions to fit their nano cruiser /HACs) there is just not much need to web anything at 40km. Who cares about the captor orbiting you at 40km ? To make things even worse, the web strength is reduced to 50-60%. So when you web something, your now sluggish huginn will be unable to keep things at range or catch up to put a point on it.
A slower Stabber will just take too much dmg from pretty much everything to be still usefull.
The vagaà. Ironically the vaga was the in a way the worst nano ship. The real problems with nano ships came from ships like the Ishtar that was able to lay down dmg while at full speed. The vaga was:
a)not permarunning with most setups b)had to slow down to do any dmg
To not kill this ship completely, and thus the whole matari HAC range, this ship needs a speed of 3,5km with a fully trained clone, hardwirings and T1 rigs before gang boosts and booster or pirate implants.
So we are now stuck with two rather crappy racial EWs. Our racial bonus (speed) becomes pointless on all ships.
To echo earlier comments, speed was largly not a problem at all and a vital way of fighting blobs. Everyone would have been fine with polies being brought back in line with other rigs and certain ships getting their speed reduced. Instead of changing some stuff you opted to change an important part of combat in a radical way. I can only hope that you guys really know what youre doing, unfort. I donÆt think you do.
/rant off
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:17:00 -
[1663]
Originally by: burek <post 1760> Originally by: Kerfira
90% of people happy with something will not voice their opinion. 90% of people not happy with something will voice their opinion.
That doesn't mean the unhappy people are right....
Oh dear alt, the irony... You just described the months of nanowhining by failures...
Why irony? It doesn't mean they're wrong either.....
Whining about something, or the amount of people whining about it doesn't determine right or wrong. It simply determines who whines....
Lots of people complained over nanos. CCP investigated the issue and determined they were right and started doing something about it. Now the nano-fans loosing their I-Win buttons complain....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:27:00 -
[1664]
Originally by: MD Dawg Ok, so how the hell are people going to escape blobs?
The way they always did.... Use a scout in a ceptor!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:28:00 -
[1665]
Just to reiterate a point that I think got a bit drowned in here:
Balancing should be done with stock fittings. T2 Modules, T1 rigs, common LP-store available hardwirings.
And at that point than, one needs to ask himself, if rare module / implants that give a benefit beyond these stock fittings are wanted, or not. If yes, you simply have to accept that a full set of rare modules will create interesting effects, that is part of the deal. If not, faction, deadspace, officer and cosmos modules and implants have to go. Bang, remove from game.
You can't balance the tank of a BS or HIC on Gist boosters and Estamel Invuls. For the same reason, you can't balance HACs, Ceptors, Dictors on T2 Polys, Gistum MWD, full HG snakes and shaqil.
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:31:00 -
[1666]
Thank god, I was so sick of small gangs ruining eve, all these "small time" pvp corps need to nut up and join a big allaince
finally an eve where giant fleet battles and strength through bigger numbers is the true path to victory ----------------------------------------------
Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Weer Treyt
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:31:00 -
[1667]
Uninspired, inconsiderate. Lots of unintended side-effects will crop up. Factional balance is disrupted, quite some ships become completely pointless.
Failnerf.
Weer Treyt
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Roninix
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:35:00 -
[1668]
*sigh* one thing that all companies need to learn is to never let the engineers do the PR. On top of that, never take anything away from the public without being prepared to give them something in return. Take away their land and give them marbles and they will praise you for it. Take away their marbles and give them nothing will cause widespread angst.
I'm sorry but pulling this stunt after delivering a heaping slag dubbed Faction Warfare just doesn't cut it.
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Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:35:00 -
[1669]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: GreGh Rakrot so today we had 3 man nano gang roaming, we pewpew some stuff on gates then just when it dies gate flashes few times and local goes up 10 or so, thorax uncloaks we start hurting him then cyno pops! and 3 carriers jump in, on our 3 man gang, with rest of their gang rolling in... we get chased for few jumps and manage to get rid of them thanks to our speed ofc
now imagine 3 man bs/bc gang roaming like that...
ccp, this blanket style changes that you came up on 5h brain-storming session is overdoing it yes, balance speed, np with that, but there are less complicated core game changing ways of doing that like: - balancing polys (dont know why this hasnt been done next day after rigs were introduced) - stack penalty for all speed mods/rigs combined (as suggested) - simply reducing MWD speed boost - adding more counters like fixing bonuses on lachesis/arazu so they can properly damp
game has changed so much and is so complicated that no radical changes should be applied but instead slow step-by-step balancing
if you go on with this changes ...no i wont quit lol, ill just find next type of roaming gangs that will probably soon become next subject to endless cries and whines on this forums ...its not like i would do that the first time, think its more like the 4th time ^^ ...and round and round we go
soooo, omg have a scout or bail earlier?
Plz dont give advice on any way to run a gang, your the reason all the tri corps left req because you was an absolute joke.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:41:00 -
[1670]
A few points:
- People who say that it was possible to go on 0.0 roams before nanos, so it should be possible after. You are mistaken. 0.0 has changed. You will be surrounded by defenders using jumpportals and wiped out in your small gang if you jump through the next gate. Its not that nanogangs don't use scouts, its that nanogangs can go through small gatecamps without being slowed down enough for a big blob to catch them.
- That is not just a matter of getting to warp faster. A nanogang will typically be able to jump into a 10-15 man gatecamp and run off without losses if they just run off. Nanogangs don't kill anything while running off, but they can run through smaller gatecamps. That is important because otherwise the only alternative becomes to log off or cloak (unless you want to Leeroy and die horribly).
- Not being able to be hit while doing 5kms is not that much of a problem, since you won't be hitting anything yourself either. Its almost like a cloak, except there are counters to nanoing, but not to cloaking.
- Do not base your game changes on EFT, or even Sisi. Sisi is not Tranquility, you don't have to deal with motherships, titans, jumpbridge networks on Sisi. All of those affect the environment in which nanos are used, and are part of why nanos are needed to keep small gang warfare outside of camping a bloody gate for 3 hours viable.
- If you make changes, make them gradually. Why would you change 15 things at the same time? Make 1 or 2 changes, then see if the result is what you want. If you change 15 things at the same time, and you **** up, then you still don't know which of the 15 things was 'too much'.
- If nanos are no longer viable, it will make less fights happen. People are not gonna keep coming in small gangs if they get blobbed time after time and forced to logoff. If you would give normal ships just a bit more ability to fight back when attacked by nanos, that would not have the same effect as reducing the speed of nanoships.
- Why don't you add a new type of T2 ammo that does less damage but has superior tracking? You have the T2 ammo that does more damage but has 75% penalty on tracking. Add another type of T2 ammo that has say a 50% bonus on tracking. Then as long as people carry that they have a shot at even hitting those 10kms vagas.
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:45:00 -
[1671]
Originally by: Tobruk Thank god, I was so sick of small gangs ruining eve, all these "small time" pvp corps need to nut up and join a big allaince
finally an eve where giant fleet battles and strength through bigger numbers is the true path to victory
m8 please go play something else, didnt heard the bigger bu.....t for long time. path of victory, hahahaha. Weird that someone speaks like that, you are probably doing pos fuel thingy most of the time and you are listening the fight stories when your mates come back from battle.
true path of victory:) hehehe
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:53:00 -
[1672]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: MD Dawg Ok, so how the hell are people going to escape blobs?
The way they always did.... Use a scout in a ceptor!
Its not about not jumping into blobs. I guess you never flew nanogangs.
What happens is this.
You enter some enemies space, you get scouted 2 or 3 jumps out of a station system. Moving throught quickly, your scout spots a target (a ratter or a small gatecamp) and the gang engages. Try to score a few kills quickly, then run off. By that time, the opponent is on alert and starts assembling a defensive gang, and jumping through jumpgates. You got a few minutes, maybe 10-15 and then there is a 40-50 man gang chasing you, except that they can use jumpbridges, and you can't. So they get out in front of you.
Now that is where is a difference between a non-nano gang and a nanogang. A nanogang can at least try to burst through the enemy fleet and if they are poorly organised engage it. Even if outnumbered 2 to 1. If the defence fleet is competent though, a nanogang will not score kills. Even if the defence fleet is not specifically setup to deal with nanos, with proper tactics they can make it impossible for the nanogang to get any kills. What it will typically end up with is the defence gang sitting on a gate, trying to snipe off Nano-HACs, while the nanofleet hovers at 100km distance trying to pickoff small ships in the enemy fleet that get repped by logistics ships.
The non-nano gang has 2 options. Either log off or jump in and die. If they fitted cloaks, the third option is to safespot and cloak and wait till the enemy gets bored.
I think the nanogang is balanced with the defenders here. Defenders can always avoid engaging the nanogang, but if they want to engage they have quite a few options. - Have a nanogang themselves. - Play undock games at their station. - Jump around the nanogang with jumpbridges and try to get a better position at a gate. - Use Huginns/Rapiers. - Use RR - Use neutralizers - Use ECM - Use Carriers/Motherships under a cynojammer. - Use superior numbers of cruisers and interceptors.
The nanogang has a distinct advantage against opponents that take none of these available options. But I think that is fair considering that a nanogang will be vastly more expensive to replace. And just like the nanogang can always disengage, so can a normal fleet. It is very very rare that a normal fleet that wants to disengage is prevented from doing so by a nanogang. If that happens it probably means they were 5 BS without support, which is a stupid fleet anyway and deserves to die.
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Sid Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:58:00 -
[1673]
I was wondering if someone could shed some light on the following issue:
from the graphs it is clear that Assault Frigs are getting a MWD speed boost - how is this speed boost effected? Higher base speed, lower mass, or higher MWD multiplier?
Sid
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Nathan West
Cataclysm Enterprises HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:59:00 -
[1674]
jeez, I havent seen so much whining since they nerfed the nanodomi. Adapt or die simple as that. Everybody knew that nanos would be nerfed in one way or the other. I really like the new speed progression through all the ship types and that ABs and scramblers wont be as useless as before. My suggestion for the scrambler would be to use scripts on that, either disable the MWD or 2pts not both the same time.
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Demus DaVet
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:59:00 -
[1675]
Edited by: Demus DaVet on 26/07/2008 09:00:33 We should all get into our Caldari cruisers and HACs and start spamming missiles. Why bother with getting gunnery and navigation skills and fitting your ship and flying into range to hit something ? Slap on some heavy launchers or cruise, a couple of invulnerability fields and hit F1 - F6.
Same thing will happen with a MP Apoc with a couple of tracking comps, but at least the pilot there will need to have trained a couple of skills to get into it.
What I find really disturbing is that in the devblog is mentioned that missiles should always hit their respective ship class irregardless that missiles suffer no other penalty like optimal/tranvsersal/sig radius (since targets that will be MWDing will still be it) and their range is always longer than needed in realistic combat situations. To me it means that the dev(s) behind this simply have never been in an actual fight, big or small, roaming or camp.
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:02:00 -
[1676]
Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:55 Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:23 you whiners, look at the new speed chart in the blog, interceptor speed is the same, so fly that if you want super speed, no more nanohacs for you haha
and stop crying about missiles hitting, with your nanoships you wouldn't get hit by missiles at all and how is that balanced??
you are just being childish
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:12:00 -
[1677]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:55 Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:23 you whiners, look at the new speed chart in the blog, interceptor speed is the same, so fly that if you want super speed, no more nanohacs for you haha
and stop crying about missiles hitting, with your nanoships you wouldn't get hit by missiles at all and how is that balanced??
you are just being childish
yea you right..in pasiv drake(dont wont 2 take NH ) you can easy **** 4 hacs with right skills...drake -100 mil VS 4 hacs 700-800 mil...and IF this hapend in pasive drake you can kill like 5 hacs easy or more..
in game convo me il giwe you 10 links wher im killing 3-4 hacs with drake..point is NANO HACS ARE NOT PROBLEM NERF THEN ****ING DRAKES
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:14:00 -
[1678]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor you whiners, look at the new speed chart in the blog, interceptor speed is the same, so fly that if you want super speed, no more nanohacs for you haha
You are probably frustrated with experience against nano ships and your ratting BS had alot of problems in the past:P
better dayz coming:)
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:15:00 -
[1679]
nanoed ships put the "miss" in missiles
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Tal Notts
Caldari Divine Power R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:17:00 -
[1680]
Edited by: Tal Notts on 26/07/2008 09:18:19 for me all these cahnges are a nerf to everything i fly and have trained for. i was a caldari pilot initially so not even the best for nano ships (some might say the worst) but from the beginning i've invested all my skills in being able to fly nanos, i've cross trained cruiser 5 from other races when i can barely fly a raven.
Now all these changes are goign to nerf me but i will be prepared to except them if the ******ed changes to a warp scrambler don't go into effect. It's just too much, combined with a reactivation delay on a MWD especially. As stated the objective was to "balance" speed not utterly **** it.
edit: wow you can't say "r e t a r d" or "r a p e" on the forums
Also i think the change to webs is really unfair, i don't fly minmatar ships and all in all the proposals would probably benifit me but i just feel the proposed changes are just too unfair on rapier/huginn pilots.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:29:00 -
[1681]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Sorry?
Arazu, domi scram + claymore in gang + overheated. This isn't as unrealistic as a 15k/sec vaga, and it has a 37.5k 2pt scram.
but I don't have recon ships 5, A friend with a claymore, or a domi scram
forum whine time!!!!
A T2 scrambler will be at 18km with maxed out Recon Ship Skill and with Overheat 21,6km This is still a good range, but not overpowered. Also the Arazu risks something. Sure a Domination Scrambler will have a much greater range, as will be a probably more reasonably priced Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler.
A Zealot with Scorch will have you within range, as well as a Pulse Laser Armageddon. Blasterships were already dead, due to Nanoships. But they will be viable PvP Ships again. Neutron Blaster Mega with Neutron and Null ammo: Optimal 11km, Falloff 16km. Blaster-Rokh same weapon and ammo: Optimal 17km and Falloff 16km.
Pulse Laser Armageddon, can easily get an optimal of 45km or more and do not get me started on the Apoc.
Dampeners are of course a factor but still, the Arazu will not be able to scramble all their targets and dampen them, so that they are unable to lock something.
What I can already think of, is that High Damage, Remote Repairing BS are quite powerful when used together with EW-Cruisers and Frigs.
PvP will not be dead, just a bit riskier then before, when certain setups allowed near immunity. So please stop whining, adapt or GTFO.
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:29:00 -
[1682]
Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 26/07/2008 09:29:51 WOW...how the tides have turned!! First its the PVPers whining about the carebears whining so much. And now FATE deals a hand where the roles are reversed...the PVPers whining. Oh...the IRONY! lol
Anyways...i'll take another quote that has been stated on these forums directly from the PVPers for the last, nearly 6 years...
" if you dont like it, quit!! Can I have ur stuff!!??"
So, moral of the story...dont like the nerf? Then fuking quit and go play WOW.
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ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:31:00 -
[1683]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:55 Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 09:04:23 you whiners, look at the new speed chart in the blog, interceptor speed is the same, so fly that if you want super speed, no more nanohacs for you haha
and stop crying about missiles hitting, with your nanoships you wouldn't get hit by missiles at all and how is that balanced??
you are just being childish
If we gonna talk about nerfing then there are some stuff that are priority before we start to think about nano/speed.
Understand that you still wanna play DRAKE-ONLINE !
Wake up before you start to talk about nano thing.
Most of properly skilled/fitted Ravens/Drake's hitting Vagabond and make him run away because there is no enough cap for mwd-ing and orbiting, you can do mwd short time with max skills and after that you are f..... up.
Nano nerf/speed and that mean shield extenders are useless, tell me how would you fit a vaga then and what will you do with that fit!?
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:33:00 -
[1684]
Originally by: Tobruk Thank god, I was so sick of small gangs ruining eve, all these "small time" pvp corps need to nut up and join a big allaince
finally an eve where giant fleet battles and strength through bigger numbers is the true path to victory
I HOPE YOU ARE SARCASTIC!!!!!
I DONT WONT TO GO IN BIG FLLET FIGHTS I DONT WONT TO FIGHT FOR DISPO MOONS FOR MORONIC LEADERSHIP I DONT WONT 2 CAMP SISTEM 2 DAYS FOR POS BASHING I WONT TO GO ROAMING SOLO OR IN SMALLER GANG IF ITC POSIBLE PLEASE CCP DONT DESTROY FUN WHICH I HAWE 3 AND HALF YEAR
ofcorse i will not stop playing whatever change you make with any patch..BUT i will spend all mine isk 2 faind how 2 roam solo again if thet is not posible and if you PUSH ME in some big alliance if i wont 2 survive THEN I WILL LEFT GAME with 0 isk and 0 ships in hangar
dont make game harder for pvp players and easyer for NPC PLAYERS
THIS PATCH WILL NOT TUCH PIRATES ALSO BECAUSE THEY FLY HEAVY TANKED SHIPS AND ECM
AND MORONIC PPL WHO DONT KNOW WHAT IS ROMAING IN SMALLER GANG AND SOLOROAMING
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Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:38:00 -
[1685]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov y 6 years...
" if you dont like it, quit!! Can I have ur stuff!!??"
So, moral of the story...dont like the nerf? Then fuking quit and go play WOW.
This is too awesome right here.
I wonder if this could be avoided with the same "i quit if you do this" 100 page thread all the carrier guys threw up when that change hit the forums.
also, I hope all the nano pilots who do quit because they're being forced into a style of play they purposely trained out of simply trash all their crap, tbh, people like this fungus wouldn't deserve it anyway.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:40:00 -
[1686]
Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 09:40:49
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor nanoed ships put the "miss" in missiles
Quoting the clueless. If you would have ever flown one, you would now that non-interceptor ships get hit by missiles. It is just...well...the average pilot that uses EM versus minmatar t2 or kinetic versus gallente t2...
And if you get killed by a single ishtar you deserve to get killed.
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Cown
Caldari Xenophobes
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:43:00 -
[1687]
I love you CCP!
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Rhamnousia
Caldari Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:49:00 -
[1688]
I've read about 30 pages of this thread. The good ones, anyway. And have tried to bring up some points i think is right, albeit, biased.
The problem with speed mods is that there is 3 different factors that can be boosted, internally and externally.
Mass: reduced mass get more bonus from speedBoost modules such as MWD and AB. (Nanofiber, Polycarbon Engine Housing) Velocity: increased max velocity has increased max velocity with speedBoost. (overdrive, aux thruster, navigation, gang bonus, snake implants, vagabond's bonus, x-instinct) SpeedBoost Bonus: affecting directly to speedBoost value of the modules. (certain implant, rapid deployment gang link, overheating, acceleration control)
utilizing all three of these factors yield the so-called "ludicrous speed" for certain ships with built-in bonus, 4-5 lowslots, and rigs. and because these are three different factors, the penalty of stacking all 3 up practically doesn't exist. that is the core of the problem if you're looking at speedModifier directly.
balancing them is one idea, albeit a bad one. here's why:
think about it, MWD is used by most if not all ships used in PvP. It is, more often than not, mandatory to fit a MWD on a ship in gang, regardless of what you do in zero. Ask just about any FC worth his salt. Reason: bubble in zero, the need to get close to one another for remote repping, blasterboats need to get in range in order to do damage, ect. Taking that out, the MWD, would literally kill all small gang warfare. it will be ludicrous then to think of guerrillas warfare such as you mention in the blog. Without MWD, zero warfare will change forever, and let me remind you, not in a good way.
Let's take a look at Polycarbon Engine Housing Rig. They give -20% bonus to Mass. I don't know the exact figure it give to speedModifier when you turn a MWD on, but it gives a lot. The module version of the Polycarb is the nanofiber, the t2 version of it gives only -12.5% IIRC. that's 7.5% difference between a rig and a module. Let me remind you that there are NO other rig, even T2 variants, have better bonus than the t2 modules version of the same bonus. (if that make any sense)
let's take a look at the infamous nanoHAC, the Vagabond. any Vagabond pilot worth his salt will have navigation lvl 5, acceleration control lvl 4 (at least), evasive maneuvering lvl 5, high speed maneuvering lvl 4, capacitor-related skills, and gunnery skills, on top of engineer and other support skills. The Vagabond has 5 lowslots, on top of 2 rig slots. that's give you total of 7 speedModifier source if you're a speed freak, most dont try and crank the best speed out of a ship due to survivability, and damage modifying modules. Yet, it's still be able to outrun most standard fitted ceptors, why?
- Built-in 25% max velocity bonus. - 5 low slots - Rigs
Arguing that ceptors also have rig slots and 4 lowslots is a true statement, but it's invalid. A ceptor cost 10-15m ISK to buy if you dont produce your own. A polycarb rig costs 36m ISK, more than double, if not triple, the cost of the ship itself. It's the equivalent of fitting TWO 180m rigs on a vagabond. Most sane people dont do that. Only the ones with too much ISK.
Snake implants, faction MWD, boosters are rare things. It's rare to see a nanoHAC clocks more than 8km/s without external help. That's perfectly fine with me, who hate nanoHAC with a fiery passion. Changing the factor that isn't the source of the problem will affect other ships, beside the nanoHACs themselves. And that's what we are upset about.
also, fix tracking disrupt and remote sensor damp while you're at it. You broke it, now fix it.
Bottom line is, If you want to fix something, make _sure_ that you're doing it right. Don't make it worse than it is now. Don't create workload for yourselves.
Work smart, dont work hard get nothing done in the process. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor.
Forever Pelennor |
Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:49:00 -
[1689]
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 09:40:49
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor nanoed ships put the "miss" in missiles
Quoting the clueless. If you would have ever flown one, you would now that non-interceptor ships get hit by missiles. It is just...well...the average pilot that uses EM versus minmatar t2 or kinetic versus gallente t2...
And if you get killed by a single ishtar you deserve to get killed.
\ You good sir- are the clueless. All advanced missles skill @ 4, using t2 precision HVY missles shooting a nanohac....0.1 dmg. Wow..thats some REAL FRICKING BALANCE right there!!!! Yep!
We can see you use missles a lot.....
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galphi
Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:49:00 -
[1690]
Edited by: galphi on 26/07/2008 09:49:59 This is something I've been thinking about recently, speed needs even more speed to be countered (or a matari recon *yawn*). But I never thought you'd actually wield the nerf-bat with such accuracy. This is an excellent fix for the speed issue, well done CCP
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pardux
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:50:00 -
[1691]
ohgod finally <3 <3 <3 <3
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Desash
The Extremely Norty Gankers Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:53:00 -
[1692]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 26/07/2008 09:29:51 WOW...how the tides have turned!! First its the PVPers whining about the carebears whining so much. And now FATE deals a hand where the roles are reversed...the PVPers whining. Oh...the IRONY! lol
Anyways...i'll take another quote that has been stated on these forums directly from the PVPers for the last, nearly 6 years...
" if you dont like it, quit!! Can I have ur stuff!!??" ...
Would you know how to use a PvP ship if we gave you one ?
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:54:00 -
[1693]
* Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
Abso freaking lootly! nano HACs fling over 9k M/S can not be hit. even when they do it its for near fractions of maximum damage.
* There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes.
Interceptors should be the fastest moving ships in the game. nano hacs are so fast even special tackle recons with specialty bonuses can't tackle HACs on a gate, because it takes less time for the nano hacs to leave the recon range then it takes the recon to lock them. Only option is to risk a similarly or higher skilled pilot in similar nano HAC.
* Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for.
Interceptors should be the best ships in the game at tackling at long or short range. ceptors are currently useless compared with nano hacs having them beat in every category. who would use ceptors when you have a faster, higher hp/dps ship with more fitting options for tackle equipment available in the nano HACs? HAC = Heavy Assault Ships (Heavily Tanked cruiser carrying high amounts of DPS (not a cruiser size interceptor fling 9-14k M/S incapable of being caught by anything in the game)
Recons don't even have the same freedom of movement through 0.0 as your average nano HAC does. a well placed HIC and a fast interceptor could catch a recon. same situation the nano HAC would pop the interceptor, laugh at the HIC, and fly away.
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:55:00 -
[1694]
Originally by: Desash
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 26/07/2008 09:29:51 WOW...how the tides have turned!! First its the PVPers whining about the carebears whining so much. And now FATE deals a hand where the roles are reversed...the PVPers whining. Oh...the IRONY! lol
Anyways...i'll take another quote that has been stated on these forums directly from the PVPers for the last, nearly 6 years...
" if you dont like it, quit!! Can I have ur stuff!!??" ...
Would you know how to use a PvP ship if we gave you one ?
...and NO, your e-peen is not bigger so dont even try. and on a related note, i'm not the one whining up a storm
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Linistitul
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:56:00 -
[1695]
Originally by: CCP Nozh On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Interesting changes and waiting to test them on Sissi Still, i'm curious what will happen when i will fly my Deimos. Will I be able to catch a cruiser or somethig similar? Or only BS's and up? Or will the Deimos become just a suicide ship?
Also i believe that blasters should be looked upon. Especially @ tracking and damage. They are crap compared to other turrets. My main char flies gallente blaser do or die ships and i don't want them to become die or die ships.
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Soyemia
Minmatar Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:58:00 -
[1696]
Originally by: Linistitul
Originally by: CCP Nozh On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Interesting changes and waiting to test them on Sissi Still, i'm curious what will happen when i will fly my Deimos. Will I be able to catch a cruiser or somethig similar? Or only BS's and up? Or will the Deimos become just a suicide ship?
Also i believe that blasters should be looked upon. Especially @ tracking and damage. They are crap compared to other turrets. My main char flies gallente blaser do or die ships and i don't want them to become die or die ships.
Minmatar do less DPS and track worse Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.26 09:59:00 -
[1697]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 26/07/2008 09:29:51 WOW...how the tides have turned!! First its the PVPers whining about the carebears whining so much. And now FATE deals a hand where the roles are reversed...the PVPers whining. Oh...the IRONY! lol
Anyways...i'll take another quote that has been stated on these forums directly from the PVPers for the last, nearly 6 years...
" if you dont like it, quit!! Can I have ur stuff!!??"
So, moral of the story...dont like the nerf? Then fuking quit and go play WOW.
If your assumption is true (PvPers vs carebears), plz tell me why a PvP aspect of the game should be balanced around carebear needs ?
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WeightedCompanionCube
Aperture Science Enrichment Center
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:05:00 -
[1698]
Originally by: Damion Zyne
If your assumption is true (PvPers vs carebears), plz tell me why a PvP aspect of the game should be balanced around carebear needs ?
Because they are the majority of subscription-paying customers ?
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:08:00 -
[1699]
When drake narf? It can passive tank like hyperion with 2 lar ><
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:09:00 -
[1700]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 09:40:49
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor nanoed ships put the "miss" in missiles
Quoting the clueless. If you would have ever flown one, you would now that non-interceptor ships get hit by missiles. It is just...well...the average pilot that uses EM versus minmatar t2 or kinetic versus gallente t2...
And if you get killed by a single ishtar you deserve to get killed.
\ You good sir- are the clueless. All advanced missles skill @ 4, using t2 precision HVY missles shooting a nanohac....0.1 dmg. Wow..thats some REAL FRICKING BALANCE right there!!!! Yep!
We can see you use missles a lot.....
no you are noob and problem is thet CCP turning 2 help nobs because like 75% of you making game..i say in before post contact me in game and i will giwe you link wher with drake i kill 2-3-4 hacs solo...
BUT YOU WISH 2 STAND IN 1 PLACE AND 2 MAKE KILLS PRESING F1F2F3F4 so ccp MUST PULL DOWN GAME ON ******ED LEVEL so all of you who push this thing be happy on belts and when ceo call you 2 take fleet bs and 2 lisent targets because you canT go out alone or with friend 2 gank targets BECAUSE THET IS SO HAAAAAAAAAARD
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:12:00 -
[1701]
Edited by: Drumul Oaselor on 26/07/2008 10:13:40
Originally by: Damion Zyne If your assumption is true (PvPers vs carebears), plz tell me why a PvP aspect of the game should be balanced around carebear needs ?
what exactly are "carebear needs" ? a game in which no single strategy can defeat all the others ?
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Pimp Mustafa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:12:00 -
[1702]
Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube
Originally by: Damion Zyne
If your assumption is true (PvPers vs carebears), plz tell me why a PvP aspect of the game should be balanced around carebear needs ?
Because they are the majority of subscription-paying customers ?
that would be the macro's and them iskfarmer's we have doing the logoffski then the nano gang kill's em ya know ccp dont like that
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Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:15:00 -
[1703]
FFS! I imagine the nano brigade would still whine like this even if CCP just added polycarb stacking penalties and reworked ship base speeds and left everything else alone.
Folks, CCP wants to change the basic way webs, mwds and scrambs work, that has been such for ages. Forget the nanogangs, they will frack up everything.
I personally think that pimped out Vaga should break 5k without implants (speed IS the Minmatar thing), but that other HACs that are tank based should find it difficult to break 3k.
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Demus DaVet
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:15:00 -
[1704]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov You good sir- are the clueless. All advanced missles skill @ 4, using t2 precision HVY missles shooting a nanohac....0.1 dmg. Wow..thats some REAL FRICKING BALANCE right there!!!! Yep!
We can see you use missles a lot.....
Would you care to comment on how much damage said nano hac was delivering on your ship ? And while we're at it, please tell us what was the cost of your ship/implants against his/hers. Won't even go in to the SP needed to fly your setup against his/hers.
Hoping to kill a 250m Vaga with a pilot with 1bil worth of implants in a 100m Cerb/Drake is kinda silly isn't ?
Get a grip, that's all I am saying.
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Ninsoku
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:17:00 -
[1705]
Originally by: Yukisa You devs need to ask yourself a vital question and come to understand the game before you try to balance it...
1. What was the intention of the MWD as a module when it was designed and implemented?
Was it intended to be a module to quickly close the gap for short range ships, a quick short burst to escape or rather a constant super high speed as it turned to be?
Looking back at the implementation it suggested that the MWD was designed primarily for short burst of high speed as it was never meant to be sustainable. However, it didn't work out this way..
When it became sustainable it obsoleted AB. Thats when game balance went downhill and you guys failed to see it coming, especially when snake implants, command ship mods that boost speed, and even boosters were added in patches. This irritated many when CCP acknowledge ships flew too fast then added poly rigs...
Now let us go back to the original design concept of MWD. Instead of changing all the multitude of factors that now make it stupidly out of balance, simply go back and make MWD work in short bursts of speed, not sustained. i.e. Low duration, long reactivation. Then buff afterburners. They were always too slow. The changes suggested will hurt AB as well as speed is much less with MWD or AB.
A major problem for small ships is their extreme weakness vs light/heavy missiles and scout drones. It's either a hit or miss affair, you either go fast and evade it, or you die. Light missiles rarely occur on big targets so it isn't as big a concern, but almost all big ships have room for light drones. This makes them too effective as an anti-light platform when their role is to be anti-heavy. Think about this point over and you will understand there are many more changes required if you truly want to rebalance speed in Eve.
A few suggestions:
1. MWD returned to its short burst-high-speed usage. 10s duration, 60s re-activation timer. 2. AB speed is increased. The % increase can be tested to get the right amount. Basically the AB is the module of choice for dog fights while the MWD is for those wanting gap closing bursts or quick evasion, not constant evasion. 3. Lower sig radius of small ships so they can avoid some drone fire and lower light missile explosion velocity. (Speed and size is a defense, not a do or die mechanism with a threshold one can exceed to be invulnerable)
This is the greatest post ever. CCP, you need to nerf the MWD module not everything else under the sun.
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:18:00 -
[1706]
thanks for forcing all HAC pilot to think about using *Gasp* an armor tank rather then a speed tank!!
Using low slots for cramming speed mods in a heavy assault ship and by-passing the stacking penalties is not how the HACs were intended to be used in the first place. Just get over the idea they are nerfing anything other then a nich in the game that was exploited by players in a way CCP never intended.
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:20:00 -
[1707]
I'll refrain from commenting any longer, but every 10 pages or so, I'll throw in a little mathematics regarding the proposed changes and new numbers:
Vagabond (basespeed): 302.5 m/sec Navigation LvL 5: +25% = 378.125 m/sec Rogue CY-1 (+3% speed): 398.46875 m/sec 1st Overdrive: +12.5 % = 448.27 m/sec 2nd Overdrive: +10.875 % = 497 m/sec 3rd Overdrive: +7.125 % = 532.5 m/sec
10MN MWD II: 500% Acceleration Control LvL 5: + 25% = 625% Rogue MY-1: + 3% = 643.75% Zor's Custom Navigation Hyperlink: +5% = 675.93%
Result = 532.5 m/sec + 675.93% = 4131.82 m/sec (overheated = 5931.4 m/sec)
With Skirmish Warfare LvL 5: 4545 m/sec (overheated = 6524.64 m/sec) With Claymore and Gang-Links: 5197.8 m/sec (overheated = 7461.8 m/sec) With HG Snakes: 5152.3 m/sec (overheated = 7396.5 m/sec) With Claymore and HG Snakes: 6481.7 m/sec(overheated = 9304.9 m/sec) .
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:20:00 -
[1708]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed thanks for forcing all HAC pilot to think about using *Gasp* an armor tank rather then a speed tank!!
You'd have to be an idiot to fly a HAC after this. In every situation the tier 2 BC is better. From your posting you come across as pretty ****ing stupid however so I'm sure you'll do it.
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Sid Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:21:00 -
[1709]
Originally by: Sid Zero I was wondering if someone could shed some light on the following issue:
from the graphs it is clear that Assault Frigs are getting a MWD speed boost - how is this speed boost effected? Higher base speed, lower mass, or higher MWD multiplier?
Sid
Somebody? Anybody?
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:23:00 -
[1710]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Get a grip, that's all I am saying.
how would you feel if your most accurate weapons hit for 3 damage every shot (even though they are the correct type) just because the game lets ships fly at imbalanced speeds ?
no wonder caldari are considered the pve race, not any more after this patch
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:25:00 -
[1711]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor
Originally by: Demus DaVet Get a grip, that's all I am saying.
how would you feel if your most accurate weapons hit for 3 damage every shot (even though they are the correct type) just because the game lets ships fly at imbalanced speeds ?
no wonder caldari are considered the pve race, not any more after this patch
and how comes turets dont hit at all?
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:25:00 -
[1712]
Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube
Originally by: Damion Zyne
If your assumption is true (PvPers vs carebears), plz tell me why a PvP aspect of the game should be balanced around carebear needs ?
Because they are the majority of subscription-paying customers ?
No need to talk about "engine" breaking speeds then. Afterall, its not like nano setups are around for only a couple of month now. Im not saying that extreme speed setups and some of the ships / rigs are out of line atm, but it only became such a major issue with eve gen filling up with FW whine.
I like flying speed setups just as much as I like flying tanking ships. I cant see why taking out a viable (and counterable) way of fighting is such a great thing for a game centered around PvP. Less options cant be better than more. Fix some problems with nano (and maybe with heavy missiles) but dont scrap a whole alternativ way of having fun plus hitting a whole racial concept / Ewar while you do it.
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morteyfarus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:30:00 -
[1713]
Edited by: morteyfarus on 26/07/2008 10:31:59 this nerf will be the end of hac's and of dynamic pvp in eve. too bad that i wasted months in training to fly these ships... maybe i should just quit the game :/
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:33:00 -
[1714]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor
Originally by: Demus DaVet Get a grip, that's all I am saying.
how would you feel if your most accurate weapons hit for 3 damage every shot (even though they are the correct type) just because the game lets ships fly at imbalanced speeds ?
no wonder caldari are considered the pve race, not any more after this patch
You comment on this
Originally by: Demus DaVet Get a grip, that's all I am saying.
but not this ?!?!?
Originally by: Demus DaVet Would you care to comment on how much damage said nano hac was delivering on your ship ? And while we're at it, please tell us what was the cost of your ship/implants against his/hers. Won't even go in to the SP needed to fly your setup against his/hers.
Hoping to kill a 250m Vaga with a pilot with 1bil worth of implants in a 100m Cerb/Drake is kinda silly isn't ?
Wow, that is what taking something out of context is all about. And please, refrain from answering unless you answer the real questions, ok ?
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julius tel'kash
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:39:00 -
[1715]
nerf the MWD is a good idea ....but nerf too the web .... for me it's not a good idea
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Eternity INC. Project Alice.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:47:00 -
[1716]
The changes seem to be a good ider to stop people going stupid speeds, and people should stop crying becouse there may lose they "i win tactic", wait till its out on sisi and comment then.
PS i fly alot of nano ships.
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:49:00 -
[1717]
The adjusting of base ship speeds + MWD looks good, and the intention to make the AB a worthwhile mod in PvP again is a good one, though I'm not sure on the execution with the warp scrambler idea.
Other parts of the proposal seem a little overcomplicated in places; I'd be happy with a simple reduction of % increase to all relevant mods/implants across the board, and/or increased fitting penalties to MWDs. I also agree with those before me who have suggested scripts for webs, to be able to increase range at the expense of webbing strength and vice versa.
It's not perfect, but overall, the planned changes are for the best and they have my support.
/Ben
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Valuv
NightHawk Phantom Fleet
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:51:00 -
[1718]
Edited by: Valuv on 26/07/2008 10:52:31 Goals are OK, but methods are unacceptable.
There is no need for these huge changes. I don't know how long you've been testing these, but making this much balance changes into speed, -something that is important to every ship in this game- is going to backfire.
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FireFox McProwler
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:56:00 -
[1719]
What everyone who uses nanos is doing.
If you saw the writing on the wall... you would have seen it coming.
AXE is looking for members!! Clicky for info. |
Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.26 10:56:00 -
[1720]
67 pages wowzer.....
Ok this probably wont be noticed or read at this late stage but it seems CCP has missed what REALLY created the nano plague.
MISSILES speed is the only bloody defence you bunch of tossers and every 2 bit carebear flies a raven/drake.
So we go back to missiles hitting 100% of the time YAY you.
****heads!
Phel.
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Dwight Hammerhead
Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:00:00 -
[1721]
Do you folks in CCP honestly believe the crap you are talking about? And do you honestly believe anyone actually believes you? Your true motive is absolutely clear, but this is not the way.
EVE has two major flaws compared to other MMOs - you dont rly have an avatar (as in humanoid one, not a ship), and then there is the problem that newer players will always be owned by the old dogs. Thoseare inherent design flaws and while you can sort out the first one (oh noes, walking in stations), there is absolutely nothing meaningfull that you can do about the second one. Just live with it.
What's the current situation - a noob enters the game, puts an AB on his crappy T1 frig and then gets killed by a ceptor that goes 16k a sec before he knows whats going on. And thats the way it has to be, even though the noob will wine about it. Why? Because the said ceptor has spent a shitload of skills and money to make this happen. Even better - someone of his teammates like myself may have taken insane amount of time to learn specific charisma based crap that boost the speed of folks around him (yes, i am a maxed out Claymore pilot). And i even know people that created alts with starting skills specifically for this sort of thing. Now you wanna nerf all that just because your noob playerbase doesnt have the skills that some ppl have been learning for the last 1,5-2 years and die a quick and horrible death? Have you gone completely insane or smth?
Out of the devblog "Gang Bonus Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus" - it is actually 15% with the implant, get your numbers straight
Do you folks know what happens when a regular civilian somehow gets his hands on a small firearm, and then decides to face a heavily armed guy from the special forces? He dies before he could even think where the safety on the gun actually is. Its only normal that newer players die and can do nothing about when cought by people with insane amounts of experience and skill. You can't nerf smth to hell that people have spent years and billions learning/improving. And i sure havent learned a specific set of 15 mil SPs so that i can give a crappy 25% bonus.
Put it in short - how about you give me my money and SP back when you do this hilarious nerf, so i can spend it on a heavily tanked raven, killing anything that happens to slowly pass near me. And please do remove ceptors and dictors from the game, noone will fly them anyway provided they will die instantly from any light missile Cerberus that happens to pass through the neighbourhood.
Get some vacation and rest on a hot tropical island. The cold weather in the north sure dulls the mind. _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig. Amarr Victor? Unlikely. |
Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:00:00 -
[1722]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edit: BTW, for most Vaga pilots their weapons do hit for 3HP every shot or not at all when they are doing their uber dupper ultra high speeds. Oh, did I mention that they can do uber dupper ultra high speeds for about 1,5 minutes before their caps run out ? And if they were hit for 3HP each time they wouldn't fit one or two LSEs giving them the sig radius of a small planet (while MWD only gives you the sig radius of a small moon), would they ?
the real question is not how expensive your ship fittings are, it's whether or not ships should be allowed to be impervious to all damage, even for 1,5 minutes, through an imbalanced game mechanic
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:05:00 -
[1723]
Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:12:17
Originally by: Zaskarr In before nano*** QQ. Ah, too late.. CCP, don't get discouraged by all the whining you'll read here. These changes are needed, no matter what a vocal minority shout here. Protip to all: first read the blog, THEN poast!
not sure why nano users would cry, sure they going slower but the change looks to make speed fits a proper ship fit with 50% webs, vagabond seems untouched by the changes
The only reasons I can figure out is that: they will not disengage as fast as they used. They will not run to the gates as fast as they used and missile boats will hit them, when until now they were pretty much immune. In the end the odds of actually a fight happens will sky rocket.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:06:00 -
[1724]
Changes are laughable and absolutely ridiculous. MWD turns off when warp scrambled?
Quote "Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%."
So...how does turning off MWD when warp scrambled not make the game predictable? You seriously expect roaming gangs to fit Afterburners and try to leg it back to the gate in 35K bubble? Are you guys kidding me?
So now, any noob can anchor bubble, train Arazu, sit and wait for ubber 30M sp PVP toon to uncloak at gate, instantly become warp scrambled, lose his MWD and die...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOL... EVE is dead if you implement this change... |
Osric Wuscfrea
Gallente PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:06:00 -
[1725]
Personally, I'm enjoying the whines. If you are not in an intie or a Vagga you should not expect to reach:
-- Rgds Mike
Dead-Fish, Deep Sea Daddies...
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari Omicron Corp Royal Commonwealth of EVE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:08:00 -
[1726]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edit: BTW, for most Vaga pilots their weapons do hit for 3HP every shot or not at all when they are doing their uber dupper ultra high speeds. Oh, did I mention that they can do uber dupper ultra high speeds for about 1,5 minutes before their caps run out ? And if they were hit for 3HP each time they wouldn't fit one or two LSEs giving them the sig radius of a small planet (while MWD only gives you the sig radius of a small moon), would they ?
the real question is not how expensive your ship fittings are, it's whether or not ships should be allowed to be impervious to all damage, even for 1,5 minutes, through an imbalanced game mechanic
quoted for truth
oh and also: these tears taste so sweet... ahhhh
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:11:00 -
[1727]
Is it not clear your customers don't want this... you know the people that pay you?
Admit it was a bad idea, please get some designers that still play the game and understands what we really need changed.
WTH ever happened to the "need for speed" ? In case you didn't notice, lag never got better.
Can we get back to that please.
Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !! |
Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:11:00 -
[1728]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 26/07/2008 11:12:53
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:12:17
Originally by: Zaskarr In before nano*** QQ. Ah, too late.. CCP, don't get discouraged by all the whining you'll read here. These changes are needed, no matter what a vocal minority shout here. Protip to all: first read the blog, THEN poast!
not sure why nano users would cry, sure they going slower but the change looks to make speed fits a proper ship fit with 50% webs, vagabond seems untouched by the changes
The only reasons I can figure out is that: they will not disengage as fast as they used. They will not run to the gates as fast as they used and missile boats will hit them, when until now they were pretty much immune. In the end the odds of actually a fight happens will sky rocket.
Yea but I fly quite a slow gankier vagabond currently and it works just as well, going above 4000 is kinda pointless in a ship that cant track and mwd. and ive seen so many superfast vagas bump off the gate only to be webed and die
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:14:00 -
[1729]
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Do you folks in CCP honestly believe the crap you are talking about? And do you honestly believe anyone actually believes you? Your true motive is absolutely clear, but this is not the way.
EVE has two major flaws compared to other MMOs - you dont rly have an avatar (as in humanoid one, not a ship), and then there is the problem that newer players will always be owned by the old dogs. Thoseare inherent design flaws and while you can sort out the first one (oh noes, walking in stations), there is absolutely nothing meaningfull that you can do about the second one. Just live with it.
What's the current situation - a noob enters the game, puts an AB on his crappy T1 frig and then gets killed by a ceptor that goes 16k a sec before he knows whats going on. And thats the way it has to be, even though the noob will wine about it. Why? Because the said ceptor has spent a shitload of skills and money to make this happen. Even better - someone of his teammates like myself may have taken insane amount of time to learn specific charisma based crap that boost the speed of folks around him (yes, i am a maxed out Claymore pilot). And i even know people that created alts with starting skills specifically for this sort of thing. Now you wanna nerf all that just because your noob playerbase doesnt have the skills that some ppl have been learning for the last 1,5-2 years and die a quick and horrible death? Have you gone completely insane or smth?
Out of the devblog "Gang Bonus Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus" - it is actually 15% with the implant, get your numbers straight
Do you folks know what happens when a regular civilian somehow gets his hands on a small firearm, and then decides to face a heavily armed guy from the special forces? He dies before he could even think where the safety on the gun actually is. Its only normal that newer players die and can do nothing about when cought by people with insane amounts of experience and skill. You can't nerf smth to hell that people have spent years and billions learning/improving. And i sure havent learned a specific set of 15 mil SPs so that i can give a crappy 25% bonus.
Put it in short - how about you give me my money and SP back when you do this hilarious nerf, so i can spend it on a heavily tanked raven, killing anything that happens to slowly pass near me. And please do remove ceptors and dictors from the game, noone will fly them anyway provided they will die instantly from any light missile Cerberus that happens to pass through the neighbourhood.
Get some vacation and rest on a hot tropical island. The cold weather in the north sure dulls the mind.
What he said, this is so ****ing stupid. I've invested my sp in flying brutix, taranis and thorax and now the thorax/brutix seems to be totally ****ed over by this change.
Good going.
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Ash Bringer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:17:00 -
[1730]
We'll see how it will effect the game but there is only 1 point...
Dont kill minmatar...
Curse and ishtar never ment to be nanoed but Vaga is designed that way.
It should still do 3.5k/sec with t2 fittings in bursts. And if u want after 1bil you pour in it it should do 4k its your call.Do many stackings as u want..
Save the web. Save the rapier or else it will be a f***ed up ship with 2 useless bonus.
Caldari will prevail :) This is a side effect and I can live with it. No big deal there
Curse might still be viable but will be nerfed so much.
Pilgrim is probably boosted as it's intend usage is stealth assassin. And now it can decloak at 5km warp scramble. Shut off mwd and use his own AB to keep with target. Means easier fittings and no need for web :P
I think it might be good. But if u kill speed so bad u should redesign vagabond.. Dont forget :P
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rgreat
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:18:00 -
[1731]
Looking forward to test new changes.
Seems interesting.
Also, when you nerf caldary? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
YapYup
Gallente Pangalactic Acquisitions
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:20:00 -
[1732]
Some great ideas but...
Missiles hitting more often Guns hitting less often Drones hitting everything
...isnt it Drones & Missile that cause the most lag in eve?
True Blaster Boats might be able to float to target after being webbed/scrammed but its not going to be able to stay at optimal range unless fitting duel web and how many 'True Blaster Boats' can afford to fit duel web?
(ooh wasnt the Deimos offered a fourth mid slot) oh well
Im all for the proposed changes but then every ship that has side effects to nerfing nano needs to be boosted so their standard use is not effected because a vaga, ishtar, curse, sac, rapier/huginn, billion isk ceptors fly to fast.
It would be nice to see the Gal recon find a role.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:21:00 -
[1733]
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Do you folks in CCP honestly believe the crap you are talking about? And do you honestly believe anyone actually believes you? Your true motive is absolutely clear, but this is not the way.
EVE has two major flaws compared to other MMOs - you dont rly have an avatar (as in humanoid one, not a ship), and then there is the problem that newer players will always be owned by the old dogs. Thoseare inherent design flaws and while you can sort out the first one (oh noes, walking in stations), there is absolutely nothing meaningfull that you can do about the second one. Just live with it.
What's the current situation - a noob enters the game, puts an AB on his crappy T1 frig and then gets killed by a ceptor that goes 16k a sec before he knows whats going on. And thats the way it has to be, even though the noob will wine about it. Why? Because the said ceptor has spent a shitload of skills and money to make this happen. Even better - someone of his teammates like myself may have taken insane amount of time to learn specific charisma based crap that boost the speed of folks around him (yes, i am a maxed out Claymore pilot). And i even know people that created alts with starting skills specifically for this sort of thing. Now you wanna nerf all that just because your noob playerbase doesnt have the skills that some ppl have been learning for the last 1,5-2 years and die a quick and horrible death? Have you gone completely insane or smth?
Out of the devblog "Gang Bonus Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus" - it is actually 15% with the implant, get your numbers straight
Do you folks know what happens when a regular civilian somehow gets his hands on a small firearm, and then decides to face a heavily armed guy from the special forces? He dies before he could even think where the safety on the gun actually is. Its only normal that newer players die and can do nothing about when cought by people with insane amounts of experience and skill. You can't nerf smth to hell that people have spent years and billions learning/improving. And i sure havent learned a specific set of 15 mil SPs so that i can give a crappy 25% bonus.
Put it in short - how about you give me my money and SP back when you do this hilarious nerf, so i can spend it on a heavily tanked raven, killing anything that happens to slowly pass near me. And please do remove ceptors and dictors from the game, noone will fly them anyway provided they will die instantly from any light missile Cerberus that happens to pass through the neighbourhood.
Get some vacation and rest on a hot tropical island. The cold weather in the north sure dulls the mind.
Signed. My main trained 3 years ago, and now lot of my ships go to trash. Dampener nerfed, range for sniper nerfed, tracking speed, hit ratio, nos and speed same too. etc. I dont know the CCP why doing this sh*t again. Why they want use everybody the Drake and any Caldari ships ? Why they want if i fly a huginn or any nice t2 ships the simple Drake with a 3 months noob would be kill me ? This is unfair. Lot of old pilots trained 3 or 4 years ago and pay it for the CCP hundred dollars, but now they say it you are f*cked up and we were not interested because the new players will yield those money. I would say it if they would do some reasonable thing true is,like a reasonable speed nerf,i will say it thats good idea no problem. We fix the lag or something. But no they will be just increasing with this patch blob and lag, and will be a nice Eve Online a crapy Caldari or Drake Online.
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RDevz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:26:00 -
[1734]
Originally by: Cutesmile
My main trained 3 years ago, and now lot of my ships go to trash. Dampener nerfed, range for sniper nerfed, tracking speed, hit ratio, nos and speed same too. etc. I dont know the CCP why doing this sh*t again. Why they want use everybody the Drake and any Caldari ships ? Why they want if i fly a huginn or any nice t2 ships the simple Drake with a 3 months noob would be kill me ? This is unfair. Lot of old pilots trained 3 or 4 years ago and pay it for the CCP hundred dollars, but now they say it you are f*cked up and we were not interested because the new players will yield those money. I would say it if they would do some reasonable thing true is,like a reasonable speed nerf,i will say it thats good idea no problem. We fix the lag or something. But no they will be just increasing with this patch blob and lag, and will be a nice Eve Online a crapy Caldari or Drake Online.
I want to be able to kill any player that hasn't been playing for as long as I have just by looking at them, no matter what ship they're flying, and no matter what ship I'm flying. I don't care whether I'm in a ship with a paper-thin hull, and they're in what is effectively a brick with guns. They should still die. After all, they're n00bs, and they should never have the chance to kill someone with the MAD SKILLZ that I've trained up.
I ALSO WANT A PONY.
I'VE PAID YOU A LOT OF MONEY, CCP. YOU'D BETTER COME THROUGH ON THIS NOW.
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Is forporn
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:31:00 -
[1735]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed * Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
Abso freaking lootly! nano HACs fling over 9k M/S can not be hit. even when they do it its for near fractions of maximum damage.
Most Nano hacs go around 3-5k/s
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for.
Interceptors should be the best ships in the game at tackling at long or short range. ceptors are currently useless compared with nano hacs having them beat in every category. who would use ceptors when you have a faster, higher hp/dps ship with more fitting options for tackle equipment available in the nano HACs? HAC = Heavy Assault Ships (Heavily Tanked cruiser carrying high amounts of DPS (not a cruiser size interceptor fling 9-14k M/S incapable of being caught by anything in the game)
Two things: 1. Most nano hacs don't touch the speeds of interceptors, with the exception of hacs which have had billions poured into them 2. "(Heavily tanked crusier carrying high amounts of DPS)" Which is the role of battlecrusiers which completly obsoletes the hac ship class
Join THE INTERNET. today |
Z3r0n
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:31:00 -
[1736]
I welcome the changes! Finally CCP is fixing the "ludicrous speeds"... and ludicrous they are!
I can understand that many people have problems with these changes but I think in the end it will make the game better and more fun again. At least it would make non-nano a possibility again. I really hope CCP does not back down on these suggestions just because of whining... the game is really broken and sometimes some nerfing is required (for example think back to the missile nerf pre-RMR where you could one-hit a frig with a torpedo... there was much whining then but now I think we all agree that it was a necessary if somewhat painful change).
Thank you CCP! Can't wait to hop on sisi.
Currently Training: ePeen Compensation Rank (19) |
Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:35:00 -
[1737]
I'd comment on that, but I just can't stop laughing at people who fit vagabonds in EFT with snakes and t2 rigs and think it's average.
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Doonoo Boonoo
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:36:00 -
[1738]
Utter fail.
Come back with some changes that nerf just the nano ships.
Speed rebalanced? More like speed removed.
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Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:38:00 -
[1739]
Hey, a blasterboat nerf! Ohwai-
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Pete Stalker
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:40:00 -
[1740]
Edited by: Pete Stalker on 26/07/2008 11:40:32 Nano-Mining!!!
There are only two types of aircrafts -- fighters and targets. |
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Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:40:00 -
[1741]
CAST YOUR VOTES FOR OR AGAINST THIS NANO NERF NOW:
Vote for it HERE.
Vote against it HERE.
.: A Vagabond's Requiem (Blog) :.
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:43:00 -
[1742]
I don't think I can get the font size to go big enough to properly express the letters: WTF are you doing CCP?!?!
Where to start.... this is F'ed up beyond all recognition in so many ways. About the only thing you managed to get right was the fact that some speed tanks ARE too powerful. You got that part, and then proceeded to hump the bunk on EVERYTHING else. I guess I'll go with the two most messed up examples of CCP logic:
#1: You have a problem with a few ships, with certain modifiers, going faster than was intended. So, in a carefully (NOT) thought-out response, instead of addressing the issues and slightly modifying the most problematic ship types and a few implants, you instead nerf EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE in sight. Way to use the scalpel instead of the sledgehammer there CCP..... The sarcasm is supposed to be overwhelming at this point if no one has caught it....
#2: You say speed is a problem, and to address it you are nerfing EVERYTHING is sight that has to do with making ships go faster. One of the WORST ideas to come down the pipes in a long time... but whatever. But, WAIT, it gets better!!! You didn't think the CCP devs were going to stop with just entry level idiocy did you?!?! No, they had to go full-bore to Neolithic, mind-blowing, world-class, idiocy! The devs are telling us that: ôSpeed is such a problem you see, that we need to make all of these massive nerfs across the board, and while we are at it, in the same patch that we are going to take care of this ugly speed problem, we will nerf those horrid webbers too!!ö
*blink*blink*
Yeah. It took me a minute on that part too. Speed is SUCH a problem that CCP is proceeding DIRECTLY to nerf the webbers..... That must be some gold class ganja they are passing out up there at CCP HQ....
Epic CCP. Epic. Just when I thought the stuff coming out of the "balance" department wasn't going to be entertaining anymore...
*
* |
Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:46:00 -
[1743]
I, for one, welcome our new Caldari Militia whine overlords :D
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:50:00 -
[1744]
Originally by: Demus DaVet
However, they seem to have no problem disregarding the invested ISK of nano fitting players and what's more the very real dollars or euros these players have invested in months' training for command ship bonuses and implants.
This is such a hollow arguement. The price of rare modules is based on their effectiveness, and time invested in "nano" skills is no different to time invested in any other skill.
The ISK price is high because of the huge advantage given, not the other way around.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:50:00 -
[1745]
Edited by: Viper ****zIe on 26/07/2008 11:49:56
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:51:00 -
[1746]
Edited by: burek on 26/07/2008 11:51:55 Going a few years back, missiles were nerfed and new skills added for people to WASTE more time skilling to crawl back to a workable level. And now we're going back to the spam missiles, collect bacon era?
What ****es me off most about this is the "5 hours to come up with this brilliance, hoho look how cool we are", the condescending tones which make it clear without a doubt that these devs play (if they even play) as those dumbasses somewhere in bumfk land where the only pvp they get is when a call goes out "zomg, 3 hostiles in that system, get your drakes and yeeeeehaw!", and the fact that they laugh off the stupid amount of isk players have spent on perfecting their gameplay.
Now I've been burned before and managed to leave a sinking ship just before it happened, like selling of t2 BPOs before every ****** in the universe started being able to build everything, training up for amarr months ago as CCP caving in to stupidity was to be expected but I'm getting a bit tired of it tbh. Staying ahead of nerfs is annoying and exhausting.
And yes, I'm pretty sure eventually the whines will start about megapulse ships, "ludicrous" amounts of armour, trimarks, slaves. Where does it stop? For me personally will be right there.
FK the noobs, seriously. Does everything have to be vanilla.
Oh, if you really want to put every god damn fker on a level playing field you should nerf capitals back into the stone age. Amount of isk put into ships SHOULD make a difference otherwise what the god damn fk is the point? |
kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:51:00 -
[1747]
Nazh just admit it, instead of talking about a real solutions you guys where busy going down on each other. When the rest of the devs came to work to figure out what you guys came up with,within those five hours. You guys were put on the spot! You were pressured into making these dumb suggestions. We will all forgive you and we will back you with CCP. We will make sure you don't get fired, just come out of the cloest and we can move past this incident. Tell us what really happen in that meeting room. |
Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:51:00 -
[1748]
MY VAGABOND IS FITTED WITH THE FOLLOWING:
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Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:52:00 -
[1749]
Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 11:53:37
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 25/07/2008 11:12:17
Originally by: Zaskarr In before nano*** QQ. Ah, too late.. CCP, don't get discouraged by all the whining you'll read here. These changes are needed, no matter what a vocal minority shout here. Protip to all: first read the blog, THEN poast!
not sure why nano users would cry, sure they going slower but the change looks to make speed fits a proper ship fit with 50% webs, vagabond seems untouched by the changes
The only reasons I can figure out is that: they will not disengage as fast as they used. They will not run to the gates as fast as they used and missile boats will hit them, when until now they were pretty much immune. In the end the odds of actually a fight happens will sky rocket.
No the chance of a fight actually happening will drop. Because instead of that 15 man nanogang jumping into your 30 man fleet and nanoing off the gate before engaging, they will instead go the other way since they dont want to lose 5 ships on jumpin.
Secondly, the comments about HACs outrunning interceptors is bullshit. A simple T2 fitted crow, stiletto or claw will outrun practically any run of the mill HAC, including vagabonds. Even if the ceptor doesn't fit rigs.
A crow with only 2 T2 overdrives and a nanofiber and a T2 MWD will do 6628ms. Estimated cost, about 20 million.
A vagbond with 2 T2 overdrives, 2 nanofibers, 2 Polycarb Is and a T2 MWD will do 6092ms. Add a third overdrive and it will only just surpass the crow at 6754ms. At that time it will cost a rough 200 million. And the only benefit it has over a crow is that its sturdier, because its DPS will be beyond pathetic. The crow will align considerably faster 3.9 sec than the vaga 6.2 seconds.
If a ship costs 10 times more, only to really be a more sturdy tackler and only marginally faster, is that really overpowered?
And of course, the vagabond is by far the fastest HAC out there. What if we take a faster interceptor. Lets look at a claw. A claw with 2 T2 nanofibers, 2 T2 overdrives and a T2 MWD does 7641ms. It aligns in 3.8 seconds. In speedterms its far better than a vagabond. A malediction does 6784ms also faster than a vagabond. These interceptors cost only 20m each.
So where is the big problem. Plenty of interceptors will go faster than vagas based on a simple T2 fit, and at only 1/10th of the cost of said vaga. And the vaga will run out of cap a lot sooner than the ceptors as well.
If the real problem is vagabonds doing 15kms, then nerf the special modules that allow them to reach that speed. Nerf snakes, nerf Gisti MWDs. But stay away from the ships doing 4-6kms.
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Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:52:00 -
[1750]
Originally by: Malachon Draco A few points:
- People who say that it was possible to go on 0.0 roams before nanos, so it should be possible after. You are mistaken. 0.0 has changed. You will be surrounded by defenders using jumpportals and wiped out in your small gang if you jump through the next gate. Its not that nanogangs don't use scouts, its that nanogangs can go through small gatecamps without being slowed down enough for a big blob to catch them.
- That is not just a matter of getting to warp faster. A nanogang will typically be able to jump into a 10-15 man gatecamp and run off without losses if they just run off. Nanogangs don't kill anything while running off, but they can run through smaller gatecamps. That is important because otherwise the only alternative becomes to log off or cloak (unless you want to Leeroy and die horribly).
- Not being able to be hit while doing 5kms is not that much of a problem, since you won't be hitting anything yourself either. Its almost like a cloak, except there are counters to nanoing, but not to cloaking.
- Do not base your game changes on EFT, or even Sisi. Sisi is not Tranquility, you don't have to deal with motherships, titans, jumpbridge networks on Sisi. All of those affect the environment in which nanos are used, and are part of why nanos are needed to keep small gang warfare outside of camping a bloody gate for 3 hours viable.
- If you make changes, make them gradually. Why would you change 15 things at the same time? Make 1 or 2 changes, then see if the result is what you want. If you change 15 things at the same time, and you **** up, then you still don't know which of the 15 things was 'too much'.
- If nanos are no longer viable, it will make less fights happen. People are not gonna keep coming in small gangs if they get blobbed time after time and forced to logoff. If you would give normal ships just a bit more ability to fight back when attacked by nanos, that would not have the same effect as reducing the speed of nanoships.
- Why don't you add a new type of T2 ammo that does less damage but has superior tracking? You have the T2 ammo that does more damage but has 75% penalty on tracking. Add another type of T2 ammo that has say a 50% bonus on tracking. Then as long as people carry that they have a shot at even hitting those 10kms vagas.
CCP, please read this post and understand what he's saying. this is one of the best posts in this thread
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NoX PL
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:55:00 -
[1751]
Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
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Z3r0n
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:56:00 -
[1752]
Originally by: Sylthi
#1: You have a problem with a few ships, with certain modifiers, going faster than was intended. So, in a carefully (NOT) thought-out response, instead of addressing the issues and slightly modifying the most problematic ship types and a few implants, you instead nerf EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE in sight. Way to use the scalpel instead of the sledgehammer there CCP..... The sarcasm is supposed to be overwhelming at this point if no one has caught it....
#2: You say speed is a problem, and to address it you are nerfing EVERYTHING is sight that has to do with making ships go faster. One of the WORST ideas to come down the pipes in a long time... but whatever. But, WAIT, it gets better!!! You didn't think the CCP devs were going to stop with just entry level idiocy did you?!?! No, they had to go full-bore to Neolithic, mind-blowing, world-class, idiocy! The devs are telling us that: ôSpeed is such a problem you see, that we need to make all of these massive nerfs across the board, and while we are at it, in the same patch that we are going to take care of this ugly speed problem, we will nerf those horrid webbers too!!ö
Imo CCP is trying to nerf the speeds on EVERYTHING because thex want to reduce the speed of all ships.... that sorta makes sense wouldn't you agree? I really don't see the problem... CCP said their engine is broken when the speeds go above "ludicrous" level so they try and scale all the speeds down a bit. I don't understand why everyone is whining so much just because all ships are going slower including nanos, missile boats, blaster boats and even haulers with an MWD... so instead of charging a BS flying 1,3km/s in your blaster boat doing 3km/s you now will charge him flying 2,2km/s but he will also only be able to fly 800m/s so you will still catch up.
Currently Training: ePeen Compensation Rank (19) |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:57:00 -
[1753]
I cannot be bothered to sift through all the carebear tears to find people that are actually posting sense, so if this has been mention already, sorry.
I like the dev blog, excellent changes and about time to. But you must now look at the rapier, it is overpowered because nanoness is over powered, so you must look at nerfing the rapier. Must!!
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:57:00 -
[1754]
Originally by: Dendo Ordoss
Originally by: Malachon Draco A few points:
- People who say that it was possible to go on 0.0 roams before nanos, so it should be possible after. You are mistaken. 0.0 has changed. You will be surrounded by defenders using jumpportals and wiped out in your small gang if you jump through the next gate. Its not that nanogangs don't use scouts, its that nanogangs can go through small gatecamps without being slowed down enough for a big blob to catch them.
- That is not just a matter of getting to warp faster. A nanogang will typically be able to jump into a 10-15 man gatecamp and run off without losses if they just run off. Nanogangs don't kill anything while running off, but they can run through smaller gatecamps. That is important because otherwise the only alternative becomes to log off or cloak (unless you want to Leeroy and die horribly).
- Not being able to be hit while doing 5kms is not that much of a problem, since you won't be hitting anything yourself either. Its almost like a cloak, except there are counters to nanoing, but not to cloaking.
- Do not base your game changes on EFT, or even Sisi. Sisi is not Tranquility, you don't have to deal with motherships, titans, jumpbridge networks on Sisi. All of those affect the environment in which nanos are used, and are part of why nanos are needed to keep small gang warfare outside of camping a bloody gate for 3 hours viable.
- If you make changes, make them gradually. Why would you change 15 things at the same time? Make 1 or 2 changes, then see if the result is what you want. If you change 15 things at the same time, and you **** up, then you still don't know which of the 15 things was 'too much'.
- If nanos are no longer viable, it will make less fights happen. People are not gonna keep coming in small gangs if they get blobbed time after time and forced to logoff. If you would give normal ships just a bit more ability to fight back when attacked by nanos, that would not have the same effect as reducing the speed of nanoships.
- Why don't you add a new type of T2 ammo that does less damage but has superior tracking? You have the T2 ammo that does more damage but has 75% penalty on tracking. Add another type of T2 ammo that has say a 50% bonus on tracking. Then as long as people carry that they have a shot at even hitting those 10kms vagas.
CCP, please read this post and understand what he's saying. this is one of the best posts in this thread
Especially the tracking ammo idea
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.26 11:59:00 -
[1755]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I cannot be bothered to sift through all the carebear tears to find people that are actually posting sense, so if this has been mention already, sorry.
I like the dev blog, excellent changes and about time to. But you must now look at the rapier, it is overpowered because nanoness is over powered, so you must look at nerfing the rapier. Must!!
you want to nerf the new worst recon even more
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:01:00 -
[1756]
That is because he really didn't read the blog. He doesn't know how to read! He only knows F1 F2 F3. He flys his Hulk a little to much! |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:03:00 -
[1757]
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I cannot be bothered to sift through all the carebear tears to find people that are actually posting sense, so if this has been mention already, sorry.
I like the dev blog, excellent changes and about time to. But you must now look at the rapier, it is overpowered because nanoness is over powered, so you must look at nerfing the rapier. Must!!
you want to nerf the new worst recon even more
That why no gang ever undocks unless it had at least 5 rapiers, yeah your right they are the worst.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:11:00 -
[1758]
I like the changes...its more logical this way. Kind of...how it is meant to be. smaller ships evading larger ships by superior speed/size and agility. I like it and this will give a new game experience to me. More tactical...more unpredictable, more rock, paper, scissors...its the eve-stlye I wish i could go to sisi and test it today.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:12:00 -
[1759]
Sounds like he is mad because they trys and counters nano gangs with his nano ship. then he gets webbed down because he sucks and didn't kill the rapiers. It isn't our fault that you suck dude. PLZ log to character selection go to the low Left hand corner and terminate character. It will take about 10 hours I think but you will feel alot better. Then make a WoW account and you can play there and when you die, you don't loose anything! Game sounds like you style. |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:13:00 -
[1760]
On another point. When these proposed changed do get implemented then you may have a problem CCP. Eve is far more populated than it was before nanoships became the in thing.
0.0 is crowded, gangs are larger. We need more space in Eve, drone regions and new low sec don't cut it. We need A LOT more 0.0 space. People need to spread out invade and take over new regions.
This would help to counter a lot of the uber blobs that could form up quickly to detroy someones crappy little 20 man slow assed gang.
This really needs me to take the time to write a long thought out post, but I am hungover and this is all I can manage.
CCP give us more space!!!!
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Rastelle
Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:14:00 -
[1761]
TBH there are 4 problems here
1) Everything in the blog is ........ well pants tbh, i disagree with it all, but i do have an idea or 2 :-
2) Ship speed, All ships need a maximum top speed, once reached the ship cannot go any faster("due to possiable hull breaches" for the RP fans out there). this is good as once you are at the top/max speed it opens up slot often used for speed mods to be used for something else etc (damage mod anyone ) so snakes or other speed related implants still have there uses.
3) MWD's, i my view they are wrong atm, i believe they should not ramp speed of any ship up as fast as they do, maybe reduce there thrust alittle. this is good as smaller/lighter ships such as intercepter would still be able to get to full speed reasonably quick, but something heavy would take a while.
4) AB's, again in my view they are wrong atm. i believe they should give a massave initial speed boost, but have a short duration, with a long'ish cool down. good for heavy things, not soo good for smaller
These idears, may/may not work for alot of people but they are a decent trade off, and i believe dedicated setup's will still work, and counters will still work, but it opens up more potiential
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:14:00 -
[1762]
CCP ban chris because he just is writing stupid shit in the fourms! |
Rhamnousia
Caldari Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:14:00 -
[1763]
Originally by: Xyleya snip
10MN MWD II: 500% Acceleration Control LvL 5: + 25% = 625% Rogue MY-1: + 3% = 643.75% Zor's Custom Navigation Hyperlink: +5% = 675.93%
snip
actually, the 10MN MWD II gives 550% base before skill. with acceleration control lvl 4 it yields 660%. with overheating it yields 990%.
i did not take any implant into the equation. These numbers are live on TQ as of this post.
your math is a little off, IIRC. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor.
Forever Pelennor |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:15:00 -
[1764]
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER Sounds like he is mad because they trys and counters nano gangs with his nano ship. then he gets webbed down because he sucks and didn't kill the rapiers. It isn't our fault that you suck dude. PLZ log to character selection go to the low Left hand corner and terminate character. It will take about 10 hours I think but you will feel alot better. Then make a WoW account and you can play there and when you die, you don't loose anything! Game sounds like you style.
Thanks for the advice, but I already have a WOW account. But you are right I do suck.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:15:00 -
[1765]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor
the real question is not how expensive your ship fittings are, it's whether or not ships should be allowed to be impervious to all damage, even for 1,5 minutes, through an imbalanced game mechanic
You're still replying w/o answering the original question, you do understand that. Yes, I do find it logical that my Ferrari will outrun and outclass your Opel Tigra even both are in the same class of autmobiles (two seaters, sport cars, you name it). if price has no role here... I really don't know what will.
As for your 'real' question you do take out of context that the only thing a vaga or an inty at ludicrous invulnerable speed can do is tackle and maybe web. For intys, that is the purpose of their existence and for vagas it's the only reason worth flying the ship for. It can also be easily countered with a neut or a domi web.
On the other hand, I do not understand why missiles should the end of all weapons, that hits everything always for maximum specialized dmg.
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:15:00 -
[1766]
Originally by: Rhamnousia
Originally by: Xyleya snip
10MN MWD II: 500% Acceleration Control LvL 5: + 25% = 625% Rogue MY-1: + 3% = 643.75% Zor's Custom Navigation Hyperlink: +5% = 675.93%
snip
actually, the 10MN MWD II gives 550% base before skill. with acceleration control lvl 4 it yields 660%. with overheating it yields 990%.
i did not take any implant into the equation. These numbers are live on TQ as of this post.
your math is a little off, IIRC.
those are the post nerf stats
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:16:00 -
[1767]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 26/07/2008 12:17:42
Originally by: Slade Hoo I like the changes...its more logical this way. Kind of...how it is meant to be. smaller ships evading larger ships by superior speed/size and agility. I like it and this will give a new game experience to me. More tactical...more unpredictable, more rock, paper, scissors...its the eve-stlye I wish i could go to sisi and test it today.
I will like those changes when ur slave set nerfed and 1600 plates stacking too. Oops i forgot ur optimal and tracking speed. Pls CCP make the amarr ships lesser optimal like a blaster mega. And u will never hit a ship what flying 15km off range, because your speed sux and the webs cant hold them.
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Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:16:00 -
[1768]
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER CCP ban chris because he just is writing stupid shit in the fourms!
Lunas? Angmar? Nath?
come on tell me who you are.
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:16:00 -
[1769]
Originally by: Cur Ahahaha!! Thanks for making my day nano****** and please continue your outpour of emotion.
Don't give an inch Nozh. A greater variety of ships and setups will hopefully soon return to the battlefield then warp off or log when they realize they havent got the numbers or just sit staring at a static screen while lags wins the day
Fixed that post for you.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:17:00 -
[1770]
Titans should go up in price too because they wont miss many roaming gangs unless Orange S. is flying it. I mean if you camp choke points with large bubbles just what for the roaming bs gang to jump in. Log on five titans and BOOM! Where can I sign up another account for all this fun? |
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Kendolph
Caldari Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:19:00 -
[1771]
Yea STOP that nano crazyness !!! It shouldn't be normal to have a cruisers doing 15k m/s
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:20:00 -
[1772]
is SON of Tongra sick of fighting PL in fountain? |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:20:00 -
[1773]
Originally by: Drumul Oaselor
the real question is not how expensive your ship fittings are, it's whether or not ships should be allowed to be impervious to all damage, even for 1,5 minutes, through an imbalanced game mechanic
Ok, then I guess the next step for CCP would be to remove cloaks. People who are cloaked are pretty much invulnerable. And not for 90 seconds, but forever!
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:21:00 -
[1774]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Demus DaVet
However, they seem to have no problem disregarding the invested ISK of nano fitting players and what's more the very real dollars or euros these players have invested in months' training for command ship bonuses and implants.
This is such a hollow arguement. The price of rare modules is based on their effectiveness, and time invested in "nano" skills is no different to time invested in any other skill.
The ISK price is high because of the huge advantage given, not the other way around.
True. But still you are trying to answer a question out of context. Because this ISK and time has been invested. Same exact thing with T2 BPOs and oh, noes, noone is touching them, THAT was my argument.
As for time invested in every other skill... I don't get it. What do you mean, just because it's time we should through it away without any consideration for those that spent it ? Really my friend, in the western world nowadays you mainly work to save time or have a good time, not make money. Sounds pretty valuable to me.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:21:00 -
[1775]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Lol even more proof that the Dev's are stupid. That is a 4bil+ set-up and you think that is somehow a standard fit?
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:22:00 -
[1776]
I agree with the cloaks real FC's fly combat ships into battle!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Varaxian
Amarr Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:22:00 -
[1777]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
Lol, its called covops...and since when is it viable that even something that can cloak can't be found when jumping into larger gangs.
Nozh, you are Baby Jesus Incarnate! ;)
P.S.> I would actually like something released on how this will affect the rapier/huginn. As long as they are ranged similar to the rest of the recons with their ability, I am 100% for the nerf. ;)
May the tears of the nano'd wash away the weak minded.
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:24:00 -
[1778]
Originally by: Rhamnousia
Originally by: Xyleya snip
10MN MWD II: 500% Acceleration Control LvL 5: + 25% = 625% Rogue MY-1: + 3% = 643.75% Zor's Custom Navigation Hyperlink: +5% = 675.93%
snip
actually, the 10MN MWD II gives 550% base before skill. with acceleration control lvl 4 it yields 660%. with overheating it yields 990%.
i did not take any implant into the equation. These numbers are live on TQ as of this post.
your math is a little off, IIRC.
Post-nerf a 10MN MWD II will have 500% base.
My calculations are made, to show that a Vagabond will hit 4-5km/sec easily after those changes would be made. .
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Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:25:00 -
[1779]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
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Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:28:00 -
[1780]
I like most of these changes, and I'm happy enough to live with the changes I don't, especially since it helps remove some of the imbalanced crap that just gets worse as time goes by. Its nice to see all of the nano pilots posting in this thread as well, sweet irony on the "whine more noob" comments that used to plague every nanonerf thread.
I do however think the warp scrams switching off a MWD seems a little strange, as well as the nerf to webs that is being proposed with the current list of changes. My reason for not being comfortable with the scram/mwd change isn't because i see a problem with blasterboats, but more to do with the nano pilots in their hac's. Fair enough they need a reduction in speed (a big one) but if thats all they are relying on then let them keep it, as long as they are slower and we stop seeing 10km/s cruisers (imo they should be doing 4km/s and be happy with it) then we might at last have ships other than huggins/rapiers gettings webs on them.
I think a better upgrade for the scram would be, rather than switching it off, give it a 20km-30km (Tech I - Domination) range and have it reduce the speed bonus from a MWD by 40-75% (Tech I - Domination) with a stacking penalty, that way another ship (or your ship) can hopefully then be able to get close enough to web the target, but still a nano pilot may be able to dip in and out attacking your ship and using their velocity to carry them out of range again but not make them able to attack, kill and run away with little to no risk.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:33:00 -
[1781]
Keep the Nano Ships as they are but add those 0.0 Sentry Guns in the collestion soverighty that CCP use to talk about. Make those track Nano ships and leave everything else alone! You not nurfing then, your adding and most people didn't waste a whole race for nothing. I will have almost 60M SP of crap besides my Naglfar after the Nerf! |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:37:00 -
[1782]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: gavhriel I'm thrilled to see the CCP actualy tries to improve the gameplay. (of course those ideas need to be tested and twiched)
You like pvp ? nano actually killed solo pvp in the way that you couldn;t do solo pvp without being a nano yourself during this time shitting your pants in fear of losing your pimped ship.
you like to roam ? roam in cheaper ships...yes you will die more often but you wont lose 1 bil ships+fittings+implants (and ofc snakes and polycarbon rigs will be cheaper....3km/sec hac will be afordable by more people...the ones that dont own moons)
EVE was dominated by small gangs of nano hacs and recons and every new player that joined the game found out that he needs 1 year+ of trainning to be actualy any good at pvp. After the changes you might actually have a chance in an assault frig to kill a hac :)
Small ships are hugely buffed vs larger ships and this is a good thing.
Addapt people, or ofc quit :) (dont forget to send some stuff this way ... i'll actually start flying nanos more often that's for sure)
Pow! First ally in pages!
Long live big ship small gang!
Any prizes for guessing what happens to the big ship small gang that gets blobbed, thats assuming you made it thru the first choke point camp with out being shafted?
Any prizes for guessing how many people from the above mentioned big ships small gang want the go thru that fun experience again?
Are changes needed, yes of course they are, are the sweeping ludicrous changes suggested needed, no, no they most definitely are not.
This will not bring versatility it will reduce it even more, this game cannot handle blobs yet these changes pander to that play style, as someone else has already pointed out CCP need to tell us what they want, because like the rest im f**king confused.
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Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:38:00 -
[1783]
Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 26/07/2008 12:42:05 So you give a nice webifier bonus to marauders Paladin and Kronos, and now you take it back, so the bonus becomes useless but the Golem keeps it Target Painting bonus and the Vargur... well dunno about the vargur...
But you get my point... If you nerf, nerf balanced.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:40:00 -
[1784]
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 26/07/2008 12:41:41
Originally by: Cutesmile
I will like those changes when ur slave set nerfed and 1600 plates stacking too. Oops i forgot ur optimal and tracking speed. Pls CCP make the amarr ships lesser optimal like a blaster mega. And u will never hit a ship what flying 15km off range, because your speed sux and the webs cant hold them.
I only got LG slave :-/ can't afford HG yet. Amarr ships speed+agility+signature radius really sucks. But it is balanced like this. superior firepower+tank but lacks in navigation. weak point for amarr is short range, use it. Its ok for me if e.g. a stabber (lol t1 cruiser, but its smaller and much more agile, look at shipclass balancing) is orbiting my abaddon/geddon at 5km and i cant hit it and am tackled by him and doomed if no one helps me out or my drones will do their work (thats why battleships got a dronebay...defense vs. smaller ships). BS is rock, Cruiser is Paper...it's as simple as that. And i gladly accept rifters outtracking my punisher at 1km orbit. Its not made for this range. weapon tracking will be more important after patch and every ship has its benefits and disadvantages. Minmatar can now go close range without beeing webbed and instantly popped by bigger ships. Without PvP-Rule No. 1 = "if you're webbed, you're dead", they can fight much closer to their ACs optimal range which is a huge damage boost.
Don't look only to 0.0 Roaming gangs. Its a big part in Eve but so is low-sec (small scale, solo) pvp, FW and highsec wars.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:47:00 -
[1785]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
Yes I was around then.
Picture this scenario. You have a sniper BS gang that you need to jump into a camped, cyno jammed system. The defenders have also got sniper BS, a large anchored bubble, some dictors and a shit tonne of interceptors with scrams.
It is death to jump your sniper BS gang into that bubble and no BS will ever make it out before they have been sniped/DD'd/Ripped apart by fighters.
There are loads of other scenarios where it will no longer be "fun" or even "possible" to win such a fight.
I don't care about the speed reductions, I care about all these haphazard introductions of modules to combat a problem and not fix the cause. The scram thing is totally ******ed, the web nerf unneccessary (there are better ways to change them) and yeah, basically PVPers should decide how PVP in eve evolves, not the carebears or Devs who clearly havn't and won't have had the time to spend the last 2+ years PVPing every day.
--------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Licky Lips
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:54:00 -
[1786]
Could this be the end to the fabled 19km/s sleipner that is cap stable giving cloaking/nano'd gatecampers bonus's?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:55:00 -
[1787]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
Actually nowadays the snipers in the system will warp off a few titans will uncloak and vaporize every ship in your fleet as they now do not have enough speed to get out of the bubbles. This will happen not only to large fleets but to small gang unless you are maybe flying a interceptor.
Fun small gang combat will be a thing of the past if this nerf is allowed to be put through as with jump bridges and cyno jammers any roaming gang will enter a constellation look around while the guys living there stay docked. But as soon as they start to leave they will find the choke point out gate bubbled to **** and either blobbed by caps + conventional ships or just get DDD'd.
Without speed ever roaming gang will become a 100% leeroy op, well done ccp you have ****ed the enjoyment of pvp for hundreds of ppl.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Wyliee
Taurus Inc
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:56:00 -
[1788]
2 year now i have played this game, so i think i should have a say.
so here goes, the more you level the playingfield between all ships the more boring this game gets.
instead of nerfing ships and the things they can do, bring out a counter mod that people can fit, it will make the game more interesting, make it less upsetting for people that have invested skills in training stuff only to get that stuff nerfed.
and more importantly, it wil bring back wildcard type ships and setups, so you never know what you might be upagainst next.
instead the game gets predictable, and people then gang together in bigass blobs to get anywhere.
im sick to death of the nerf bat. i am a fully skilled amarr recon pilot (amounst other things) and i cant be the only only that knows the pilgrim is very difficult ship to fly, if it is made slower i think it will be useless against anything other than a cruiser.
and i know there are many ships out there that will just not be used once they have their speed cut.
why nerf nanos again? im guessing its coz they are used to wide spred now in fational warfare? its hardly suprising, 1000's of people fighting in low sec, massive rolling blobs and nano***s flying around..
yeah great ccp's said it would promote small scale warefare.
leave nanos and speed, and think of some inventive way to discourage blobs.
then i wil be happy.
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.26 12:56:00 -
[1789]
Might CCP be using the DITF technique on us?
Quote: The door in the face (DITF) technique is a persuasion method. Compliance with the request of concern is enhanced by first making an extremely large request that the respondent will obviously turn down. The respondent is then more likely to accede to a second, more reasonable request than if this second request were made without the first, extreme request. There is also a feeling of guilt associated with the DITF technique of sequential requests (Cialdini, 2000). A person is also more likely to agree with the second request because they feel guilty for having rejected the first request. A reference point (or framing) construal can also explain this phenomenon, as the initial bad offer sets a reference point from which the second offer looks like an improvement.
Will you donate $1000 to our organization? [Response is no]. Oh. Well could you donate $10?''
Can you help me do all this work? Well can you help me with this bit?''
Can I stay out until 4am? OK. How about midnight?''
Will you accept this huge nerf to nanos? Ok how about this slightly smaller one?
In any case, I don't object to the nerfing per se, but I agree with some of the concerns raised. The 'readjustment' of webs, for one, seems both needless and excessive. The MWD disabling scrambler I have no qualms with: afterall, its technically another web. If webs are left untouched (or adjusted only moderately), the scramblers will mostly serve as gallente recon enhancements (which is also welcome).
If, however, webs are left nerfed to the proposed extent, the consequence is that one must expend two slots to achieve the same result one achieved with one earlier. This can only be avoided by sacrificing scrambling distance which for a lot of ships and applications is not really an option (and, some of you are now even wanting the effect scripted which would bode even worse for many ships leaving this option out).
Two counterpoints to others' concerns:
1. Arazu & Lachesis will not be overpowered. They will achieve less of a speed reduction than Huginn or Rapier currently does at half the range (which is very significant, esp. versus smaller ships) aswell as only being able to put one effect per ship (whereas Huginns and Rapiers can put several webs on a single ship).
2. Blasterships are not significantly disadvantaged by the scrambler change: their approach is no more compromised than it is now by non-recon ships since scramblers' ranges are less than webs'. And the increased use of gallente recons, while surely bad for blasterships, will also disrupt other ships' ability to manipulate range and additionally -- given their (the recons') short range -- blasters have a much better chance at shooting those ships down than they do at shooting minnie recons (the use of which will also drop if the web nerf stays harsh).
The web nerf will hurt blasterships in hurting their ability to keep targets put and to track them if they are not using the scrambler in conjunction. It will, however, also hurt all other ships that wish to keep their prey still. Relatively speaking, it will be worst for those ships that don't neccessarily use an MWD but still need a web: it is less viable for them to use the short range scrambler to aid webbing than it is for blasterships and similar who burn up close. Of course, if using the short range scrambler, the close range ships cannot prevent ships from warping as easily and rely more on tackling support.
The worst case scenario is that CCP listens to people not happy with the scrambler changes but leaves webs nerfed. The alternative scenarios are better: A. if webs aren't nerfed too much, at worst the scrambler will be useless on ships other than gal recons but web will still be useful by itself; and B. if the scrambler is removed but webs aren't nerfed too much, webs are still useful. Keeping people in place is very important for nonconsentual pvp.
----------------------
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:56:00 -
[1790]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 12:56:00 -
[1791]
Originally by: Slade Hoo Edited by: Slade Hoo on 26/07/2008 12:41:41
Originally by: Cutesmile
I will like those changes when ur slave set nerfed and 1600 plates stacking too. Oops i forgot ur optimal and tracking speed. Pls CCP make the amarr ships lesser optimal like a blaster mega. And u will never hit a ship what flying 15km off range, because your speed sux and the webs cant hold them.
I only got LG slave :-/ can't afford HG yet. Amarr ships speed+agility+signature radius really sucks. But it is balanced like this. superior firepower+tank but lacks in navigation. weak point for amarr is short range, use it. Its ok for me if e.g. a stabber (lol t1 cruiser, but its smaller and much more agile, look at shipclass balancing) is orbiting my abaddon/geddon at 5km and i cant hit it and am tackled by him and doomed if no one helps me out or my drones will do their work (thats why battleships got a dronebay...defense vs. smaller ships). BS is rock, Cruiser is Paper...it's as simple as that. And i gladly accept rifters outtracking my punisher at 1km orbit. Its not made for this range. weapon tracking will be more important after patch and every ship has its benefits and disadvantages. Minmatar can now go close range without beeing webbed and instantly popped by bigger ships. Without PvP-Rule No. 1 = "if you're webbed, you're dead", they can fight much closer to their ACs optimal range which is a huge damage boost.
Don't look only to 0.0 Roaming gangs. Its a big part in Eve but so is low-sec (small scale, solo) pvp, FW and highsec wars.
Signed but... we need more simple words for ur post. An Amarr BS with full skill hit over 1200DPS, not need ammo recharge if u stand in optimal. The fitting easier like a Matar and u have better tracking speed. A Matar BS like a tempest have 700DPS need recharge and if the new patch coming with web nerf the AC bullets cant hit u hard, because the t2 high damage ammo cant hit u when u move over 200m/s. When the web will be just 60% slowing penalty the Matar and Gallente BS will be a crap. They cant to move fast enough to optimal range.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:01:00 -
[1792]
Originally by: Licky Lips Could this be the end to the fabled 19km/s sleipner that is cap stable giving cloaking/nano'd gatecampers bonus's?
Cant believe that some poster really think that the people complaining about the nerf are really bothered about losing these extrem setups. Nerf snakes, officer stuff and bring polies back in line and not even 10% of the posting would happen.
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:04:00 -
[1793]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:17:00 -
[1794]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 13:16:58
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
PVP with the skill range and equivalent variation of the game snap.....yea great.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Kalintos Tyl
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:21:00 -
[1795]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:21:47 http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ravenal5.jpg
red raven blue tempest light blue mega green geddon
raven can chosse damage also. 50% speed = new web raven next ship to train, im so glad that you can train torps sreight away not like with turets that you need to skill every turet to get large.
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Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:25:00 -
[1796]
Some thoughts: (this will probably be lost in the storm, bwth..)
Instead of the blanket cut to web effectiveness, please consider scripts for webs (and possibly scrams). Some of use use webs on non-mwd targets in PVE deadspace settings and this will impact there with a big loss of webbing.
Script for scram/disruptors: to choose between MWD or normal warp disruption effectiveness.
Script for webs: speed reduction or range of web, ie 90% at short range, 50% at long range.
If you level the MWD speed boost of faction mwds to 500%, (fine btw) rather than fiddlie with the fitting, which are fine atm, level the speed, but reduce the sig radius penalty for the higher meta levels.
Some of the interceptor fits are tight right now, and rather than upset that delicate balance, address the sig radius progression (which will be necessary anyway if the speed boost is constant), to make the gisti-Atype, for example, not blow out your sig radius nearly so much.
Otherwise I await to see how it pans out.
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zullita
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:27:00 -
[1797]
OMFG !!!!
Are u serious CCP??? Why did we trained all those skills for speed....why have we put so much ISK in those items and implants and all the things???? WHY???
Wouldn't be much better that instead of nerffing all day the EVE things.....just create some weapons and ships against fast ships???? Why is it that all the time when some nooblets are complaining about something you have to nerf?? Let them adapat and learn how to encouter diferent situations...how come other guys like me could of trained for speed...why can't they??? Couse they like to FARM and do Missions and they get killed couse they are to stupid to know how to stay alined and get safe?? If they hate speed this means they don't have it....so let them train for it...or give them a chance to defend themselfs with new items and ships. Give us something new to train !!
I am just wondering how borring EVE will be without the speed. I am just wondering how many ppl will quit playing this game in short while after you will nerf the speed.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:31:00 -
[1798]
God, I don't know where to start.
Ships should never be able to outrun missiles or drones - Yeah, it's not like that's been a valid tactic since the game's release, or has any counters.
AB's viable for pvp.....sure, that's gonna happen [maybe if you nerf mwd's into oblivion].
Biggest contributors to ludicrous speed are snakes and well-skilled claymores [the other factors combined do not get you to ludicrous speed, they just get you to a decent speed]. A good claymore requires so much specialisation that it's hard to argue all it's pilots need to be nerfed (especially since they aren't in every gang by any stretch). Snakes....well, perhaps they do add a little too much, but then again they do cost a fortune and are rather easy to lose (maybe up the cost a bit to match inflation?)
Scrams disabling mwd's.....F**K OFF. Seriously. Ridiculous idea. MWD reactivation delay? wtf?! Taking away velocity variation between mwd's....once again no. Reducing bs mwd speed? They're bloody bricks anyway, far as I'm aware bs speed hasn't been an issue since the last speed nerf (and then it was more the agility that causewd the issues), so why fiddle?
Nerf webs? Balance I guess, only necessary if speed is horribly nerfed. Change web drones, great they get changed to be proportionately as crap as they are now, why not nerf less and give them a boost so they actually get used? Implants slot changes....eugh. Marauders get their web bonuses increased.......er...ok. I guess they'll web cruisers in lvl4 missions a little better lol.
Way to turn x-instinct from awesome to a pile of shite. We already have some facilities for reducing sig radius, and we all know how underused and derided those bonuses are, why do you think this would be welcomed? Then consider the people and corps heavily invested in x-instinct production chains...pretty unfair on them.
With regard to the size/price issue: nice misrepresentation. Given equivalent mods etc a smaller faster ship will pretty much always remain a smaller faster ship.
Tbh I can't really sum up how I feel about all this, but it feels like you're redefining the game to remove an aspect of combat that has been perfectly valid since the game was released. Not only that but you propose drastic changes to the most basic of modules such as scramblers. It all seems like kowtowing to a small percentage of forum whiners to me.
Perhaps some small adjustment is necessary to reduce the very top speeds reached by combining all factors you list, but that since few people do so or have the vast quantity of isk necessary to do so, I would say that these large-scale nerfs and re-designs that drastically affect gameplay across the board are far too much.
Imo the situation, if anything, requires a nerf with a scalpel, not a sodding bulldozer.
This is gonna be worse than the carrier debacle.
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Kalintos Tyl
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:32:00 -
[1799]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:32:06 it will be drake/raven online. Becouse zomg my drake cant kill nano whiners
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Ever Red
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:36:00 -
[1800]
CCP please don't touch anything! FIX THAT BLOB LAAAAGGG IN THE GAME! AND FIX CLOAK AT THE NOT PROFILE SHIP'S! FIX POSES! MAKE NEW GUIDE FOR THE FAT CAREBEAR OR BELT RAT'S!
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Caiman Graystock
Quantum of Solace
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:37:00 -
[1801]
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Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:42:00 -
[1802]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
No need to be so agressive to get your point across.
But you need to open your mind new or in fact old tactics to win a fight, rather than clicking your MWD and hitting orbit, takes a lot skill that also, dosen't it.
|
Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:44:00 -
[1803]
Originally by: The Economist Edited by: The Economist on 26/07/2008 13:41:28 God, I don't know where to start.
Ships should never be able to outrun missiles or drones - Yeah, it's not like that's been a valid tactic since the game's release, or has any counters.
AB's viable for pvp.....sure, that's gonna happen [maybe if you nerf mwd's into oblivion].
Biggest contributors to ludicrous speed are snakes and well-skilled claymores [the other factors combined do not get you to ludicrous speed, they just get you to a decent speed]. A good claymore requires so much specialisation that it's hard to argue all it's pilots need to be nerfed (especially since they aren't in every gang by any stretch). Snakes....well, perhaps they do add a little too much, but then again they do cost a fortune and are rather easy to lose (maybe up the cost a bit to match inflation?)
Scrams disabling mwd's.....F**K OFF. Seriously. Ridiculous idea. MWD reactivation delay? wtf?! Taking away velocity variation between mwd's....once again no. Reducing bs mwd speed? They're bloody bricks anyway, far as I'm aware bs speed hasn't been an issue since the last speed nerf (and then it was more the agility that causewd the issues), so why fiddle?
Nerf webs? Balance I guess, only necessary if speed is horribly nerfed. Change web drones, great they get changed to be proportionately as crap as they are now, why not nerf less and give them a boost so they actually get used? Implants slot changes....eugh. Marauders get their web bonuses increased.......er...ok. I guess they'll web cruisers in lvl4 missions a little better lol.
Way to turn x-instinct from awesome to a pile of shite. We already have some facilities for reducing sig radius, and we all know how underused and derided those bonuses are, why do you think this would be welcomed? Then consider the people and corps heavily invested in x-instinct production chains...pretty unfair on them.
With regard to the size/price issue: nice misrepresentation. Given equivalent mods etc a smaller faster ship will pretty much always remain a smaller faster ship.
Tbh I can't really sum up how I feel about all this, but it feels like you're redefining the game to remove an aspect of combat that has been perfectly valid since the game was released. Not only that but you propose drastic changes to the most basic of modules such as scramblers. It all seems like kowtowing to a small percentage of forum whiners to me.
Perhaps some small adjustment is necessary to reduce the very top speeds reached by combining all factors you list, but that since few people do so or have the vast quantity of isk necessary to do so, I would say that these large-scale nerfs and re-designs that drastically affect gameplay across the board are far too much.
Imo the situation, if anything, requires a nerf with a scalpel, not a sodding bulldozer.
This is gonna be worse than the carrier debacle.
Yeah, something like that.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:44:00 -
[1804]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
No need to be so agressive to get your point across.
But you need to open your mind new or in fact old tactics to win a fight, rather than clicking your MWD and hitting orbit, takes a lot skill that also, dosen't it.
How about you list a few of those old or new tactics because if you think that clicking a mwd and then orbit is all you need to do when you fly nano's you are a clueless idiot.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Kristrina Belaure
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:47:00 -
[1805]
Great work CCP, these changes should be great, however, i personly believe ships designed for speed tanking (Interceptors and Certain ships like the Vagabond) should get a Role Bonus Decreasing the chance that a warp disruptor's pulse timmer (yes so every 5 seconds) will disengage the MWD, because otherwise these types of ships will dissearpear within a week after being initated, whats the point of flying a interceptor when you know you will be nearly instantly poped after your warp disrupted?, same with the vagabond, except you would last a little longer
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:48:00 -
[1806]
Quote: In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies
why the **** do you have to go faster than 9000m/s to fight in a small group?
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Sybil Loc0
Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:48:00 -
[1807]
Originally by: Ever Red CCP please don't touch anything! FIX THAT BLOB LAAAAGGG IN THE GAME! AND FIX CLOAK AT THE NOT PROFILE SHIP'S! FIX POSES! MAKE NEW GUIDE FOR THE FAT CAREBEAR OR BELT RAT'S!
Ghehe that should be fixed first before ccp start with new (blob da game)ideas ;)
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Tashiell Gao
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:49:00 -
[1808]
Having my face on a thread that kills.
Jim with that "door slams on the face" might be right...well i hope.
the boost on missiles seems to be right, i was just going to post something like "missiles are less effective and more restrictng than guns" thread with an alt. seems there is no such need now.
But Speed nerf...seems to be disgusting to the minmatar race from just reading it, even one less reason for me to cross train minnies in the near future.
But anyway, i ll wait till people have tested the changes over a long term of time.
-tash
Tashiell Gao, Minmatar Inside.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:49:00 -
[1809]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
I'm sorry but I never had to go faster than 5000m/s to get back to the gate stop whining.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:52:00 -
[1810]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
I'm sorry but I never had to go faster than 5000m/s to get back to the gate stop whining.
If thats the case why bother nerfing anything, besides you will have no choice about it if this ******ed nerf goes ahead and that is the real issue here.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:52:00 -
[1811]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
basically PVPers should decide how PVP in eve evolves, not the carebears or Devs who clearly havn't and won't have had the time to spend the last 2+ years PVPing every day.
You have hit the nail on the head here Frenchy, Gone are the days 5 nano ships kill 50 bs and get out unhurt tactics have evolved drones targetted nuets are been used sure some kills will be gotten but for the most part a 'serious' defence gang will come out on top a a nano gang or the nano's will chose to run.
What the hell needs to be changed if some dim wit carebear raven pilot getting ganked in the belts then whines like a tosser on the forum thinks this will help him **** me what has this game become.
P
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Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:53:00 -
[1812]
70k views and still rolling. I WANT 100k! -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Tyr'onth
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 13:53:00 -
[1813]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:54:00 -
[1814]
Originally by: Tashiell Gao Having my face on a thread that kills.
Jim with that "door slams on the face" might be right...well i hope.
the boost on missiles seems to be right, i was just going to post something like "missiles are less effective and more restrictng than guns" thread with an alt. seems there is no such need now.
But Speed nerf...seems to be disgusting to the minmatar race from just reading it, even one less reason for me to cross train minnies in the near future.
But anyway, i ll wait till people have tested the changes over a long term of time.
-tash
ok as a minmatar pilot I have to say I will not be effected by any of these changes.
The only thing this does is make speed more important that before. And I for one never used fancy mods before and won't now. in fact look at the interceptor it's nopt nerfed at all. I can still nano it and go 8000m/s
this change is only to stop 30,000 m/s which you can't fight at nayways.
hell now I can't be webbed to death meaning my speed skills are now meven better why would anyone but rich dumb ****ers complain about this change I don't get it.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 13:55:00 -
[1815]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
I'm sorry but I never had to go faster than 5000m/s to get back to the gate stop whining.
If thats the case why bother nerfing anything, besides you will have no choice about it if this ******ed nerf goes ahead and that is the real issue here.
actully that is why we have the CSM and I think you'll find more people vote for than agiants.
And the case is to nerf out 30,000 m/s this change doesn't effect anyone but blaster boats. and rich people with too many officer mods trying to go to fast.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:00:00 -
[1816]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
No need to be so agressive to get your point across.
But you need to open your mind new or in fact old tactics to win a fight, rather than clicking your MWD and hitting orbit, takes a lot skill that also, dosen't it.
I dont fly nanos but I can sure as hell tell you that a nano is NOT mwd + orbit.
Also, invincible nanos are invincible!!!!!!!!!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=806494&page=1#25
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=806494&page=3#73
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:02:00 -
[1817]
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
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Tashiell Gao
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:03:00 -
[1818]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Tashiell Gao Having my face on a thread that kills.
Jim with that "door slams on the face" might be right...well i hope.
the boost on missiles seems to be right, i was just going to post something like "missiles are less effective and more restrictng than guns" thread with an alt. seems there is no such need now.
But Speed nerf...seems to be disgusting to the minmatar race from just reading it, even one less reason for me to cross train minnies in the near future.
But anyway, i ll wait till people have tested the changes over a long term of time.
-tash
ok as a minmatar pilot I have to say I will not be effected by any of these changes.
The only thing this does is make speed more important that before. And I for one never used fancy mods before and won't now. in fact look at the interceptor it's nopt nerfed at all. I can still nano it and go 8000m/s
this change is only to stop 30,000 m/s which you can't fight at nayways.
hell now I can't be webbed to death meaning my speed skills are now meven better why would anyone but rich dumb ****ers complain about this change I don't get it.
Hi, hi, hopefully i pressed "f5" for once. otherwise i don't think i will ever replie your qoute.
I am talking about minnie recons.
As you have already stated, you don't use expensive mods, well some of us do, every nerf/boost is fine apart from the web nerf and the "max" speed intruduction-some people just want their fricking vaga go 100km/s with 10bn isk just for "i am just plain better than you cause i am faster" moments. They have paid genue american dollars every month for 5 years now, they have the isk to spend, you doesn't and you shouldn't be jealous.
-tash
Tashiell Gao, Minmatar Inside.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:03:00 -
[1819]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die.
People used to do this before the nano age. It's difficult but you can do if you are good enough.
You are a dumb shit.
How the **** can you be good at pressing mwd and then moving in a straight line ? Do people magically feel skilled and move 200m/s faster?
Wow ...
I'm sorry but I never had to go faster than 5000m/s to get back to the gate stop whining.
Did you bother reading my post? I was flaming the guy for saying that if you're good you can still get fleet BS out of mwd and i tell him he's dumb because being good doesn't magically make the ship move the extra 100-200m/s that is being nerfed.
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:03:00 -
[1820]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
This to be honest.
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RuneTday
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:04:00 -
[1821]
Just spent a year to train a Minmatar pilot to Hac and Recon. Just purchase 1st Poly. Rapier is now the new Myrmidon and just about worthless. Only 3 weapon slots, low armor and resists. Anybody want to buy them. The Hyena is already paper thin and now will be meaningless. You need to redevelop all three of the Mim ships that rely on webs. At least I do not have the range of Caldari jammers of 90K for a T1 cruiser.
Say goodbye to the Minmatar race
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:04:00 -
[1822]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 14:05:22 OMG. Laughing at all the Pandemic Legion, Sniggwaffe, Triumvirate, et al whines! AHAHAHAHAHA LOL
You're nothing without your nanos LMAO Look at all the tears.
CCP, please don't cave in to Tri and company. They've abused nanos long enough. Count their posts on this thread and see what I mean. As you said, MWD has become a MUST to counter MWD's/nanos. Your ideas just need a little tweaking, other than that it's all good. Two thumbs way up!
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Eraggan Sadarr
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:05:00 -
[1823]
I vote for balance, even though my nano-Ishtar will hurt for it. I think we can get this to work if we all do our parts on the test server (SISI).
Happy balancing CCP.
Eve Market Scanner |
Zhilan Alaioki
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:05:00 -
[1824]
Quote: I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/sign once more
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:09:00 -
[1825]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
OMG. Laughing at all the Pandemic Legion, Sniggwaffe, Triumvirate, et al whines! AHAHAHAHAHA LOL
You're nothing without your nanos and you know it. LMAO Look at all the tears.
CCP, please don't cave in to Tri and company. They've abused nanos long enough. Count their posts on this thread and see what I mean. As you said, MWD has become a MUST to counter MWD's/nanos. Your ideas just need a little tweaking, other than that it's all good. Two thumbs way up!
And ppl like you are nothing even with them so you try to gain some pathetic satisfaction from others fun style of pvp being removed from the game.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:10:00 -
[1826]
Quote: I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
There be sense in you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:11:00 -
[1827]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 14:06:31 OMG. Laughing at all the Pandemic Legion, Sniggwaffe, Triumvirate, et al whines! AHAHAHAHAHA LOL
You're nothing without your nanos and you know it. LMAO Look at all the tears.
CCP, please don't cave in to Tri and company. They've abused nanos long enough. Count their posts on this thread and see what I mean. As you said, MWD has become a MUST to counter MWD's/nanos. Your ideas just need a little tweaking, other than that it's all good. Two thumbs way up!
You do know that sniggwaffe dont fly nanos? You do know that PL, tri etc. fly battleships too, alot? You do know that you are a ****ing low whiner who should crawl in to a pit and die?
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Danny Altenburg
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:12:00 -
[1828]
I'm surprised at the amount of 1337 PVPers in this thread that don't have the first clue about how missiles work.
Four words:
* Explosion velocity
* Explosion radius
Sit back, read up, and start tucking those whines back in, soldiers.
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Kristrina Belaure
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:12:00 -
[1829]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
*Cough Cough* Defenders! Electronic Warfare! Our sig radius is naturally larger because we rely on our shields, you get to target us faster, meaning you can dampen us down so we cant target you and jam you. alot of larger ships have 1 or possibably 2 launcher slots, fit these with defenders and you negate some of our dps, fit out rocket launchers and you can fire even faster and out-destroy our missile launching, rendering us to 0 dps.
Use a gallente recon and snipe us, amarr recons to drain our active tanks dry, there are countless ways to counter us, as the same with the other races, Amarr with their tracking disruptors, gallente with sensor dampeners, caldari with our ecm and minmatar, well they support other ships really, target painters to make them larger for missiles, or to allow larger guns to deal more damage.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:13:00 -
[1830]
Originally by: Danny Altenburg I'm surprised at the amount of 1337 PVPers in this thread that don't have the first clue about how missiles work.
Four words:
* Explosion velocity
* Explosion radius
Sit back, read up, and start tucking those whines back in, soldiers.
Because missiles should be the end all weapon with insane range and should also hit nanos. Actually they should just make you instapop.
Turrets hit nanos.
Turrets don't hit very far unless you fit long range and then they dont hit nanos and then they do low dps.
There's pros and cons, expecting missiles to counter everything is naive.
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:15:00 -
[1831]
Quote: I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Reposting for empahsis. PAY ATTENTION DEVS! -----
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Deitre Cibrus
You're Doing It Wrong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:15:00 -
[1832]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 14:06:31 OMG. Laughing at all the Pandemic Legion, Sniggwaffe, Triumvirate, et al whines! AHAHAHAHAHA LOL
You're nothing without your nanos and you know it. LMAO Look at all the tears.
CCP, please don't cave in to Tri and company. They've abused nanos long enough. Count their posts on this thread and see what I mean. As you said, MWD has become a MUST to counter MWD's/nanos. Your ideas just need a little tweaking, other than that it's all good. Two thumbs way up!
You do know that sniggwaffe dont fly nanos? You do know that PL, tri etc. fly battleships too, alot? You do know that you are a ****ing low whiner who should crawl in to a pit and die?
Well said -----------
Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
What is this sig missing? Pretty colours? -Conuion Not true! Has plenty -Deitre
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 14:15:00 -
[1833]
Originally by: Kristrina Belaure
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
*Cough Cough* Defenders! Electronic Warfare! Our sig radius is naturally larger because we rely on our shields, you get to target us faster, meaning you can dampen us down so we cant target you and jam you. alot of larger ships have 1 or possibably 2 launcher slots, fit these with defenders and you negate some of our dps, fit out rocket launchers and you can fire even faster and out-destroy our missile launching, rendering us to 0 dps.
Use a gallente recon and snipe us, amarr recons to drain our active tanks dry,
Sig radius means squat in bs v bs slugout. You have ECM. Try fitting launchers on a megathron/geddon. One word: CPU. gall recons for sniping? . Active tanks?
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:17:00 -
[1834]
Quote: But you need to open your mind new or in fact old tactics to win a fight, rather than clicking your MWD and hitting orbit, takes a lot skill that also, dosen't it.
If you think thats all there is to being a good nano pilot then you and Nozh might have something in common.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:18:00 -
[1835]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean And ppl like you are nothing even with them so you try to gain some pathetic satisfaction from others fun style of pvp being removed from the game.
How about you take off the nanos off your ship and try something different? it's not the end of the world you know. USE YOUR BRAIN! to fit your ships instead of just nanoing even the kitchen sink. If not, can i have your stuffs on your way out? Keep crying noob.
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xGRIMERx
Minmatar The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:23:00 -
[1836]
Alright take away the speed, but then take jammers with it too
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:24:00 -
[1837]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 14:26:04
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean And ppl like you are nothing even with them so you try to gain some pathetic satisfaction from others fun style of pvp being removed from the game.
How about you take off the nanos off your ship and try something different? it's not the end of the world you know. USE YOUR BRAIN! to fit your ships instead of just nanoing even the kitchen sink. If not, can i have your stuffs on your way out? Keep crying noob.
You are a clueless r*tard with no idea how to enjoy the game, and ive killed more ships in non nano ships than i ever have in nano ships.
But then i understand the game and i have flown with ppl who enjoy fun fighting in pvp gangs from nano to sniper BS and all styles in between. Removing any form of gang pvp for the preferred ******ed blob style of skilless crap is always a mistake.
PS: your a moron.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:24:00 -
[1838]
Gonna give a run down on 90% of whats been said so far in this thread.
"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I'll quit if you nerf my broken crap, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, do what I say I pay $15 a month! without me the game will die"
Its amazing how many bullshit reasons people are coming up with over something that we can't even test yet, And all of the "My battleship will be useless" posts, thats horse shit, most of you've never left your <insert nanoship here> since you realized how broken it was. Just because nano pilots are actually going to have to put their billion isk fits at risk now doesn't mean its broken, it means its being fixed. Life goes on, and as you all used to be so good at saying "Whine some more".
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:25:00 -
[1839]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Kristrina Belaure
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:38 Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 13:04:19 well 1160 dps torp raven with 30km optimal that dont need to track and awlays hit, sounds nice isnt it?
Drake powning all cruisers/frigates with heavy misiles and tanking like hyperion with 2 lar dont using cap this sounds too intresting isnt it?
Caldari era will begin.
*Cough Cough* Defenders! Electronic Warfare! Our sig radius is naturally larger because we rely on our shields, you get to target us faster, meaning you can dampen us down so we cant target you and jam you. alot of larger ships have 1 or possibably 2 launcher slots, fit these with defenders and you negate some of our dps, fit out rocket launchers and you can fire even faster and out-destroy our missile launching, rendering us to 0 dps.
Use a gallente recon and snipe us, amarr recons to drain our active tanks dry,
Sig radius means squat in bs v bs slugout. You have ECM. Try fitting launchers on a megathron/geddon. One word: CPU. gall recons for sniping? . Active tanks?
Used torps and noticed reduction only vs cruiser and smaller ships. You will kill these ships in 4 reduced damage volley anyway. Unless they speed tank. Lol at inties getting pop with drakes after patch.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:26:00 -
[1840]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean And ppl like you are nothing even with them so you try to gain some pathetic satisfaction from others fun style of pvp being removed from the game.
How about you take off the nanos off your ship and try something different? it's not the end of the world you know. USE YOUR BRAIN! to fit your ships instead of just nanoing even the kitchen sink. If not, can i have your stuffs on your way out? Keep crying noob.
sophisticatedlimabean Favorite Ship: Falcon (106 kills)
His KM history also shows lots of kills with domi and mega.
What about trying again?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:36:00 -
[1841]
Originally by: Tashiell Gao
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Tashiell Gao Having my face on a thread that kills.
Jim with that "door slams on the face" might be right...well i hope.
the boost on missiles seems to be right, i was just going to post something like "missiles are less effective and more restrictng than guns" thread with an alt. seems there is no such need now.
But Speed nerf...seems to be disgusting to the minmatar race from just reading it, even one less reason for me to cross train minnies in the near future.
But anyway, i ll wait till people have tested the changes over a long term of time.
-tash
ok as a minmatar pilot I have to say I will not be effected by any of these changes.
The only thing this does is make speed more important that before. And I for one never used fancy mods before and won't now. in fact look at the interceptor it's nopt nerfed at all. I can still nano it and go 8000m/s
this change is only to stop 30,000 m/s which you can't fight at nayways.
hell now I can't be webbed to death meaning my speed skills are now meven better why would anyone but rich dumb ****ers complain about this change I don't get it.
Hi, hi, hopefully i pressed "f5" for once. otherwise i don't think i will ever replie your qoute.
I am talking about minnie recons.
As you have already stated, you don't use expensive mods, well some of us do, every nerf/boost is fine apart from the web nerf and the "max" speed intruduction-some people just want their fricking vaga go 100km/s with 10bn isk just for "i am just plain better than you cause i am faster" moments. They have paid genue american dollars every month for 5 years now, they have the isk to spend, you doesn't and you shouldn't be jealous.
-tash
then lets replace the painter bonus with a bonus to web effect?
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Adm Tecumseh
Caldari Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:37:00 -
[1842]
So if your so bored that you have to review this when do you think you may get bored enough to fix cloaking? I mean cloaks should not fit on ships that are not made for cloaking. Or should at least use up cap sa fast that the cloaks turn off in a couple minutes.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:38:00 -
[1843]
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
I think clearly that youve never flown gallente ever or you would never say such things.
At 5 kills 4 losses ever in eve (over 2 years) he has never flown any thing ever by the looks of it.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:39:00 -
[1844]
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
I think clearly that youve never flown gallente ever or you would never say such things. And for suggesting that the megas tracking bonus get changed to a terrible bonus like ab speed i hope you get cancer (ingame)
how will it hurt the non-blaster battleships if their drones can hit targets?
also with everyone moving slower the tracking bonus is less important.
are you following?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:41:00 -
[1845]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 14:42:01
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
I think clearly that youve never flown gallente ever or you would never say such things.
At 5 kills 4 losses ever in eve (over 2 years) he has never flown any thing ever by the looks of it.
My main ship is a logistics ship ask about in the minmatar alliance, our corp, FDN, and MNTZ. I don't fly with weapons. I fly with 4 large remote reps.
or jsut talk to all the pirate corps in MH and the surrounding area I'm a pain in the ass on my main.
my alt is a goonie and has many more kills :P
speaking of which when with logistics ships get on killmails or something :(
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:42:00 -
[1846]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
I think clearly that youve never flown gallente ever or you would never say such things. And for suggesting that the megas tracking bonus get changed to a terrible bonus like ab speed i hope you get cancer (ingame)
how will it hurt the non-blaster battleships if their drones can hit targets?
also with everyone moving slower the tracking bonus is less important.
are you following?
stfu or get a clue
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:43:00 -
[1847]
Originally by: MotherMoon
My main ship is a logistics ship ask about in the minmatar alliance, our corp, FDN, and MNTZ. I don't fly with weapons. I fly with 4 large remote reps.
or jsut talk to all the pirate corps in MH and the surrounding area I'm a pain in the ass on my main.
my alt is a goonie and has many more kills :P
speaking of which when with logistics ships get on killmails or something :(
My other cars a Ferrari?.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:44:00 -
[1848]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Saori Rei Thinking about it, I'm concerned about the effect all this will have on Gallente blasterboats. I can't help but think this will nerf them heavily. :S
we'll have to test it on sis but I think only the blaster battleships are going to get hurt. I still think the mega should get a change to it's tracking to instead get a bonus to afterburner speed.
I think clearly that youve never flown gallente ever or you would never say such things. And for suggesting that the megas tracking bonus get changed to a terrible bonus like ab speed i hope you get cancer (ingame)
how will it hurt the non-blaster battleships if their drones can hit targets?
also with everyone moving slower the tracking bonus is less important.
are you following?
stfu or get a clue
wow it's like you have no idea how the game works.
if your in scram range your in web range and THUS YOUR IN BLASTER RANGE.
coming from pandemic legion I though you would know something about PvP.
Who the **** cares this doesn't effect speed unless your fitting expensive modules. and as a nano scimitar pilot I will still be able to get up to 700m/s easily without extra mods. And with everyone else going slower minmatar ships are getting more powerful.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:45:00 -
[1849]
"A MWD perpetually wielded in your mid-slot is becoming an axiomatic truth, not an option with an alternative."
Just noticed this and thought it was worth a comment:
It is not becoming an axiomatic truth.
It has been one for any pvper worth his salt since 2004.
Before the introduction of all the factors you list, save skills.
Pedantic, I know, but thought it was worth pointing out the implied misconception that all these things you consider to be unbalancing factors have caused the MWD to become a must have module.....when everyone that's been playing the game for a significant amount of time knows that it's always been a necessity, not an option (unless you like dying/losing kills).
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:46:00 -
[1850]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 14:26:04
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean And ppl like you are nothing even with them so you try to gain some pathetic satisfaction from others fun style of pvp being removed from the game.
How about you take off the nanos off your ship and try something different? it's not the end of the world you know. USE YOUR BRAIN! to fit your ships instead of just nanoing even the kitchen sink. If not, can i have your stuffs on your way out? Keep crying noob.
You are a clueless r*tard with no idea how to enjoy the game, and ive killed more ships in non nano ships than i ever have in nano ships.
But then i understand the game and i have flown with ppl who enjoy fun fighting in pvp gangs from nano to sniper BS and all styles in between. Removing any form of gang pvp for the preferred ******ed blob style of skilless crap is always a mistake.
PS: your a moron.
I dont like to resort to simple name calling but he's right, you're a moron, back when i was in FZN we used to go out in small gangs of @ 10-20 ships in bs maybe a bit smaller but not nano'd, as time went on the need to move faster became apparent as we had to travel further to find the fights we liked as we'd be blobbed as soon as we appeared in local, even then the shift was to smaller none nano ships, but that wasn't enough, capitals and blobs and hot drops made us move over to the nano side of the game, that and that alone, not the ability to pick fights and bail if it didnt suit us even after all that there was ppl in corp who didnt like the idea of nano ships but saw it was the only option.
Well done, you didnt adapt, instead you cried and now the game will be poorer for it, some changes were needed but what were looking at even if some ideas dont make on to tranq is stupid, the problem mainly was polys and stacking, that was what had to be addressed.
Using HG snakes as a reason is pointless it represents a small minority of players, its a shame the way that this game is going but the real reason is cash, more people cry about speed then support it, and going with the crowd means more money for CCP.
All we need now is for SOE to take over and its all good.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:46:00 -
[1851]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
My main ship is a logistics ship ask about in the minmatar alliance, our corp, FDN, and MNTZ. I don't fly with weapons. I fly with 4 large remote reps.
or jsut talk to all the pirate corps in MH and the surrounding area I'm a pain in the ass on my main.
my alt is a goonie and has many more kills :P
speaking of which when with logistics ships get on killmails or something :(
My other cars a Ferrari?.
no it's a shity rifter that only gets on killmals because getting on a killmail is pointless and stupid, however tackling is important, keeping ships alive is important, running fleets is important I don't give a shit about killmails. I honestly never posted a single kill mail I've ever gotten so those that are up aren't me anyways.
Besides looking back you won't care but I've got 35 kills so far in FW on my sheet, sorry if I dont' care about waving my e-peen around.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:48:00 -
[1852]
Originally by: MotherMoon
if your in scram range your in web range and THUS YOUR IN BLASTER RANGE.
With Null maybe. Faction AM/Void on Ion IIs is 3.8/9.6 (with my skills). Null cuts the DPS and tracking a bit. As it is it would be bad enough, but if your mongoloid suggestion that the tracking bonus is removed and replaced with a ****ing AFTERBURNER SPEED BONUS was entertained, it would be catastrophic.
posting, could you stop it.
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Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:49:00 -
[1853]
Edited by: Xyleya on 26/07/2008 14:51:02 A little bit of calculation...
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1967/speednerfpl3.gif
Doesn't seem too much of a loss of speed to me.
I did not calculate the Rapier/Ishtar/Crow/Malediction with SnakeSet and Claymore, but it should be clear, what speeds you still can achieve adding all available stuff.
EDIT: I did not use Polycarbs or Nanofibers, because with Overdrives and Implants it's pretty straight forward with adding up boni and not taking Mass into account. .
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:49:00 -
[1854]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
if your in scram range your in web range and THUS YOUR IN BLASTER RANGE.
With Null maybe. Faction AM/Void on Ion IIs is 3.8/9.6 (with my skills). Null cuts the DPS and tracking a bit. As it is it would be bad enough, but if your mongoloid suggestion that the tracking bonus is removed and replaced with a ****ing AFTERBURNER SPEED BONUS was entertained, it would be catastrophic.
posting, could you stop it.
sorry I won't stop posting.
anyways, If it had a speed incease it would just be a big thoraxe. what's wrong with a battleship sized thoraxe? I'm being honest here I'll remove my suggestion if you give me a good answer.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:50:00 -
[1855]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
My main ship is a logistics ship ask about in the minmatar alliance, our corp, FDN, and MNTZ. I don't fly with weapons. I fly with 4 large remote reps.
or jsut talk to all the pirate corps in MH and the surrounding area I'm a pain in the ass on my main.
my alt is a goonie and has many more kills :P
speaking of which when with logistics ships get on killmails or something :(
My other cars a Ferrari?.
no it's a shity rifter that only gets on killmals because getting on a killmail is pointless and stupid, however tackling is important, keeping ships alive is important, running fleets is important I don't give a shit about killmails. I honestly never posted a single kill mail I've ever gotten so those that are up aren't me anyways.
Besides looking back you won't care but I've got 35 kills so far in FW on my sheet, sorry if I dont' care about waving my e-peen around.
If you lock a target and shoot anything at it even if it does not hit you get on the KM and just because you do not post yours does not mean others do not post there loss mail or KM's that yoou would have been on.
If your gonna preach about summat its a good idea to know wtf your talking about pal.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:52:00 -
[1856]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
if your in scram range your in web range and THUS YOUR IN BLASTER RANGE.
With Null maybe. Faction AM/Void on Ion IIs is 3.8/9.6 (with my skills). Null cuts the DPS and tracking a bit. As it is it would be bad enough, but if your mongoloid suggestion that the tracking bonus is removed and replaced with a ****ing AFTERBURNER SPEED BONUS was entertained, it would be catastrophic.
posting, could you stop it.
sorry I won't stop posting.
anyways, If it had a speed incease it would just be a big thoraxe. what's wrong with a battleship sized thoraxe? I'm being honest here I'll remove my suggestion if you give me a good answer.
There's no answer, accurate or not, that you'd 'accept', because you're a ****ing dipshit. Choosing between spending the time to write up a big :words: post or just telling you to **** off you're stupid will have the same effect: you're still a moron, I'm still right. So, I'll go with the second one.
also way not to reply to anything I said about the megathron. It's even worse on the Brutix/Astarte/Eos/Deimos (lol).
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:52:00 -
[1857]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
My main ship is a logistics ship ask about in the minmatar alliance, our corp, FDN, and MNTZ. I don't fly with weapons. I fly with 4 large remote reps.
or jsut talk to all the pirate corps in MH and the surrounding area I'm a pain in the ass on my main.
my alt is a goonie and has many more kills :P
speaking of which when with logistics ships get on killmails or something :(
My other cars a Ferrari?.
no it's a shity rifter that only gets on killmals because getting on a killmail is pointless and stupid, however tackling is important, keeping ships alive is important, running fleets is important I don't give a shit about killmails. I honestly never posted a single kill mail I've ever gotten so those that are up aren't me anyways.
Besides looking back you won't care but I've got 35 kills so far in FW on my sheet, sorry if I dont' care about waving my e-peen around.
If you lock a target and shoot anything at it even if it does not hit you get on the KM and just because you do not post yours does not mean others do not post there loss mail or KM's that yoou would have been on.
ok jezz I'll stop talking about blasterboats and just talk about speed, and duh other people might post my killmails but what fun is non-solo PvP when it comes to kills?
running around ammar space solo taking out people running plexes is just fun.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:52:00 -
[1858]
Been a couple of hours since I posted. So I thought I would update everyone on CCP sitution! They still suck a$$! |
adriaans
Amarr The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:53:00 -
[1859]
DON'T nerf the webifiers....:/ otherwise whats the point of nano nerf? OR you can always INCREASE web range as result of effectiveness reduction.... but seriously...50-60% -sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:54:00 -
[1860]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
if your in scram range your in web range and THUS YOUR IN BLASTER RANGE.
With Null maybe. Faction AM/Void on Ion IIs is 3.8/9.6 (with my skills). Null cuts the DPS and tracking a bit. As it is it would be bad enough, but if your mongoloid suggestion that the tracking bonus is removed and replaced with a ****ing AFTERBURNER SPEED BONUS was entertained, it would be catastrophic.
posting, could you stop it.
sorry I won't stop posting.
anyways, If it had a speed incease it would just be a big thoraxe. what's wrong with a battleship sized thoraxe? I'm being honest here I'll remove my suggestion if you give me a good answer.
There's no answer, accurate or not, that you'd 'accept', because you're a ****ing dipshit. Choosing between spending the time to write up a big :words: post or just telling you to **** off you're stupid will have the same effect: you're still a moron, I'm still right. So, I'll go with the second one.
also way not to reply to anything I said about the megathron. It's even worse on the Brutix/Astarte/Eos/Deimos (lol).
yes it cuts the tracking unless you can get in range for your closer range higher tracking ammo.
oh wow am I thinking to much for you? poor baby.
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:54:00 -
[1861]
Originally by: Demus DaVet You're still replying w/o answering the original question, you do understand that. Yes, I do find it logical that my Ferrari will outrun and outclass your Opel Tigra even both are in the same class of autmobiles (two seaters, sport cars, you name it). if price has no role here... I really don't know what will.
As for your 'real' question you do take out of context that the only thing a vaga or an inty at ludicrous invulnerable speed can do is tackle and maybe web. For intys, that is the purpose of their existence and for vagas it's the only reason worth flying the ship for. It can also be easily countered with a neut or a domi web.
On the other hand, I do not understand why missiles should the end of all weapons, that hits everything always for maximum specialized dmg.
missiles and drones have always functioned the way they do now, you're just feeling threatened because you will no longer be virtually invulnerable to them
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 14:56:00 -
[1862]
Originally by: MotherMoon
yes it cuts the tracking unless you can get in range
Originally by: MotherMoon
yes it cuts the tracking unless
Originally by: MotherMoon
yes it cuts the tracking
Originally by: MotherMoon
I am ****ing worthless
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Samantha Quii
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:04:00 -
[1863]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
|
Sid Zero
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:04:00 -
[1864]
The more I think about these changes the more they're growing on me...
Both the Wolf and the Enyo are now much more viable choices for pvp when fitted with a scram and AB, and will dogfight very nicely within webrange.
|
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:04:00 -
[1865]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 15:06:35
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
ok jezz I'll stop talking about blasterboats and just talk about speed, and duh other people might post my killmails but what fun is non-solo PvP when it comes to kills?
running around ammar space solo taking out people running plexes is just fun.
And your trying to make us believe that out of every one of those bazillions of plex kills you got none of them posted a loss mail?.
Keep talking your making a great case for why its only clueless ******s who want this nerf and how it is not needed.
ok instead I'll point at the fact that only 30% of all players have ever posted a kil mail or even looked at a forum don't be so full of yourself.
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-MotherMoon-kills.html
Here you go post away all your solo km's and prove me wrong.
Or you could stfu its up to you.
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
doesn't mean much but at least I've never lost my logtisics ship. http://nmtzkill.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=3856
I did lose an ashimmu unfitted ugh that was terrible lol.
|
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:06:00 -
[1866]
wonder if the Devs are in the US congress. I mean they get nothing right and they never help us with anything good. It usally just helps the upper 5% of the world and screws the middle class! |
Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:07:00 -
[1867]
Originally by: Malachon Draco ... Now that is where is a difference between a non-nano gang and a nanogang. A nanogang can at least try to burst through the enemy fleet and if they are poorly organised engage it. Even if outnumbered 2 to 1. If the defence fleet is competent though, a nanogang will not score kills. Even if the defence fleet is not specifically setup to deal with nanos, with proper tactics they can make it impossible for the nanogang to get any kills. What it will typically end up with is the defence gang sitting on a gate, trying to snipe off Nano-HACs, while the nanofleet hovers at 100km distance trying to pickoff small ships in the enemy fleet that get repped by logistics ships.
Ehem, why should it be necessary to assemble a fleet to deal with a gang?
In essence you're saying that a nano-gang, just because they've fitted certain modules, should be able to engage and possibly defeat far more numerous foes.
While it is to some degree true that a well-fitted group should be able to outfight more numerous foes who don't fit their ships well (assuming they're equally good pilots), when a specific fit that cripples your group against anything but a nano-group is required, then the balance is broken.
If a nano-gang is caught moving the wrong way, they should be annihilated just like any other group! However, because they can disengage within seconds (below many opponents lock times), and can get out of web range in 2 seconds, they're pretty close to impossible to catch even when they make mistakes. THAT is where the big imbalance lies. Other ships die when they make mistakes! This kind of near-invulnerability hurts the game because it is so unbalanced towards other modes of play. Hence what we have now where nano-gangs are getting close to being the only ones flown, simply because they're the only ones not loosing out against other nano-gangs.
Don't give me the Huginn/Rapier excuse either. You know as well as I do that if a gang is fitted especially against nano-gangs, the only thing they'll get is no fights (or they'll die to any other kind of opponent).
On average, nano-ships should die as often as other ships of the same class. Both you and I know they don't (except maybr to other nano-ships), and that means only one thing: That nano'ing is broken!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:07:00 -
[1868]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 14:06:31 OMG. Laughing at all the Pandemic Legion, Sniggwaffe, Triumvirate, et al whines! AHAHAHAHAHA LOL
Matrix skye, member of state war acadamy for 9 months and 8 days.
yet another chicken hiding behind alts in this thread
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:07:00 -
[1869]
Originally by: MotherMoon
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
How fortunate that you do not care about the very thing that could actually help validate what you are talking about.
Still not to worry anybody with any actual knowledge about the game knows your a clueless moron anyway.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:08:00 -
[1870]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
How fortunate that you do not care about the very thing that could actually help validate what you are talking about.
Still not to worry anybody with any actual knowledge about the game knows your a clueless moron anyway.
haha yes you make a great case for yourself.
|
|
Orar Ironfist
Capital Produce
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:09:00 -
[1871]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
How fortunate that you do not care about the very thing that could actually help validate what you are talking about.
Still not to worry anybody with any actual knowledge about the game knows your a clueless moron anyway.
/signed
Pirate for Life(no matter my sec)
|
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:10:00 -
[1872]
oh noes I made 3 people in the world hate me!
what will I ever do, oh wait the outside world ooo shiny.
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:10:00 -
[1873]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 15:11:01
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
How fortunate that you do not care about the very thing that could actually help validate what you are talking about.
Still not to worry anybody with any actual knowledge about the game knows your a clueless moron anyway.
haha yes you make a great case for yourself.
Post your uber solo kms or stfu.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:11:00 -
[1874]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: MotherMoon
sory I still don't care enough anyways back to the game forums are boring. The respect I hold in game is more important than here anyways :P
even with over 8000 posts which give me respect here too doesn't mean I'm always right but this has nothing to do with kills or killmails. what a waste or time.
How fortunate that you do not care about the very thing that could actually help validate what you are talking about.
Still not to worry anybody with any actual knowledge about the game knows your a clueless moron anyway.
haha yes you make a great case for yourself.
Post you uber solo kms or stfu.
post a km with a mega, brutix, astarte, or eos while you're at it or shut the **** up about blasters forever
|
keuel
Gallente Heretic Militia
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:12:00 -
[1875]
O don¦t know if I feel happy for the nerfing or sad for the nano players. Tho I liked it I wanted them to nerf nanos (now it remains carriers/neuts and my eve happiness is full), tho, lets see how this is going to be on SiSi and then the final result.
|
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:12:00 -
[1876]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
You sir are a rare individual, thank you for a good well informed post based on experience, there's a lot of clueless dull witted lazy c*nts that would do well to follow your example but i think its too late, but i'd like to thank you for renewing my faith in intelligent thought based on experience and practical application.
|
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:12:00 -
[1877]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831860
|
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:13:00 -
[1878]
All we are trying to say mother is we don't need some weekend warroir spewing shit in this fourm. The people who acutally play this game, have a deep love for what they do in this game. You come here will bullshit to make people ****ed off. So you can take your shit anywhere else but here. |
scorp3
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:14:00 -
[1879]
Can some one make some posters to send CCP saying (CHECK FOR SIMPLE SOLUTIONS FIRST)
|
burek
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:15:00 -
[1880]
Hey everyone, here's some tasty shit on this plate. Trust me, try it. I know it smells like shit. It looks like shit. But seriously, take a bite before you call it shit. Trust me! |
|
Crimsonshot Brooti
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:15:00 -
[1881]
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
You sir are a rare individual, thank you for a good well informed post based on experience, there's a lot of clueless dull witted lazy c*nts that would do well to follow your example but i think its too late, but i'd like to thank you for renewing my faith in intelligent thought based on experience and practical application.
Qft,
Arazu/lachesis Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range , doesn't look like a 15km warp scrambler bonus now does it(unless im missing something here)
And try it out before screaming murder already...not the end of the world, im sure we can adapt to changes*cough*, devblog sub title states: Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience!11!
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:17:00 -
[1882]
Originally by: MotherMoon http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831860
Originally by: TheG2 I've seen lots of complaints that blasterboats would be nerfed by these changes, however I don't think it changes much.
For example: Battleship is moving at 800m/s towards its target, it comes within 10km, web hits, it slows to 500m/s by the time he hits the 7.5km/s scrambler where his MWD gets cut, he continues to drift closer to his target (because he has also cut off his targets MWD and webbed him with his own web/scrambler) and well within to optimal range. The fight is now exactly as before except web is slightly less effective, so if the smaller ship is using an AB instead of a MWD, they choose their fit correctly and therefore should have an advantage in this case.
How fortunate that you and this r*tard never fight ships that burn away from you at the same speed or faster and that they all sit still so your totally absurd scenario may actually work.
PS: I suggest you and this other paer tiger login do some pvp cos you have no clue wtf you are talking about
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:18:00 -
[1883]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 26/07/2008 15:19:03
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER Nazh just admit it, instead of talking about a real solutions you guys where busy going down on each other. When the rest of the devs came to work to figure out what you guys came up with,within those five hours. You guys were put on the spot! You were pressured into making these dumb suggestions. We will all forgive you and we will back you with CCP. We will make sure you don't get fired, just come out of the cloest and we can move past this incident. Tell us what really happen in that meeting room.
They where going to come up with simple soultions but here is my intel I got off there fourms! |
Athanasios Anastasiou
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:22:00 -
[1884]
I'm glad I have heavy missile 5 trained. The drake awaits me.
|
PKlavins
Caldari The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:24:00 -
[1885]
In honour of the short-range scram now acting as a web for any ship with a MWD, I now christen the 7.5km scram the "Wamble".
That is all.
first -eris
|
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:27:00 -
[1886]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 26/07/2008 15:31:17 I would have to say I learned alot these last two days seeing PL right all this intel on ships and what they do. I bet most people have no idea on these figures and that is why they lose, to good PVP groups like PL. PL you guys are truly top notch and you have my repect after this is all said and done. |
Levaria
Gallente BirthIRight HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:27:00 -
[1887]
Genius sir....pure genius...Wamble it is.
*Levaria strokes his maxed out missile skills now*...precioussssssssss.. ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
|
The Economist
Logically Consistent
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:28:00 -
[1888]
Edited by: The Economist on 26/07/2008 15:29:49 Does anyone else think:
New scram mechanic + proposed MWD reactivation delay = overpowered?
[put the scram on an arazu and it gets worse...add a claymore to a gang and omg...]
Besides concerns related to min recons, webs, obsolescence etc... I am also concerned that scrams use very little cap; is it a good idea to have such a powerful effect (can completely disable a module) that one can easily perma-run? Not only that, but mods with comparable effects such as ECM and Neuts have significant drawbacks...in the first case cap use and blind chance in the second, huge cap use and range [damps and tracking disruptors I'm not mentioning due to their lack of effectiveness since the nerf and the fact that though they indirectly limit your options, they don't directly eliminate them]. Then take into account that ECM has the counter of ECCM, Neuts have injectors, tracking disruptors have enhancers, damps have sensor boosters; what counter will there be to this proposed scrambler mechanic?
Can it be called balance if there isn't one?
Personally I think the entire concept of both the scram change and the mwd reactivation resembles the raving idiocy of the institutionalized; however I post the thought above in the interest of intelligent debate.
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:30:00 -
[1889]
Nano*** alt checking in (cos my mains are forum banned right).
Let's just put it like this - the reason nanos are so effective is because the people USING nanos, TRI, CI, (PL's excuse for nano***s is pretty much OSHIT), are skilled pvpers who've put in years of practice flying and FCing these style of fleets. It's not because the setups are particularly overpowered, but because the people FIELDING these setups in general are a decently skilled group of pvpers who have learned to use this style of play to their advantage.
Throw 20 hydra (no offence hydra, just couldn't think of another example of a not-particularly-nano specced alliance) in nanohacs, send them to someones home system and see how they do; I can bet you they will all die.
You're all welcome to whinge and ***** and cry your little carebear eyes out over the fact that nano setups are overpowered, and rejoice that finally the one thing you hate most in the game (those dirty nanofaggots) is being nerfed, but you will realise sooner or later that the people who fly these setups and tactics are the ones at the forefront of PVP nowadays, the REAL innovators of skirmish warfare and once you realise this, you'll understand when this nanonerf comes in (if it does) when you're still unable to combat whatever new tactic it is we come up with to counter your unskilled, numbers-based style of "PVP".
Keep those whines up guys, your tears in local as you die through stupidity are delicious, and after this nerf we shall be harvesting them soon enough with another "overpowered" tactic that makes you all over the place.
Much ♥
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:32:00 -
[1890]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 15:32:55
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER I would have to say I learned alot these last two days seeing PL right all this intel on ships and what they do. I beat most people have no idea on these numbers and that is why they lose to good PVP groups like PL. PL you guys are truly top notch and you have my repect after this is all said and done.
Im not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but your closer to the truth about things than you realize.
Experienced pvpers learn about there ships capabilities and fits plus they group up to make the best of those bonuses and fitting styles.
While those who are either too stupid or lazy to learn those capabilities and styles run str8 to the forums and cry for nerfs and make claims about broken game mechanics instead of admitting to their incompetence or laziness.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
|
Levaria
Gallente BirthIRight HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:33:00 -
[1891]
Edited by: Levaria on 26/07/2008 15:34:00 [ Quote: i]Nano*** alt checking in (cos my mains are forum banned right).
Let's just put it like this - the reason nanos are so effective is because the people USING nanos, TRI, CI, (PL's excuse for nano***s is pretty much OSHIT), are skilled pvpers who've put in years of practice flying and FCing these style of fleets. It's not because the setups are particularly overpowered, but because the people FIELDING these setups in general are a decently skilled group of pvpers who have learned to use this style of play to their advantage.
Throw 20 hydra (no offence hydra, just couldn't think of another example of a not-particularly-nano specced alliance) in nanohacs, send them to someones home system and see how they do; I can bet you they will all die.
You're all welcome to whinge and ***** and cry your little carebear eyes out over the fact that nano setups are overpowered, and rejoice that finally the one thing you hate most in the game (those dirty nano***gots) is being nerfed, but you will realise sooner or later that the people who fly these setups and tactics are the ones at the forefront of PVP nowadays, the REAL innovators of skirmish warfare and once you realise this, you'll understand when this nanonerf comes in (if it does) when you're still unable to combat whatever new tactic it is we come up with to counter your unskilled, numbers-based style of "PVP".
Keep those whines up guys, your tears in local as you die through stupidity are delicious, and after this nerf we shall be harvesting them soon enough with another "overpowered" tactic that makes you all over the place.
Much ♥[/i]
Sounds like someones tissue papper nano setup got a boo boo...its ok....im sure you will harvest plenty of nano fails in the near future. ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
|
Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:36:00 -
[1892]
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:39:00 -
[1893]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Smart people use things that aren't modified missionrunning setups because they work in organized gangs of skilled PvPers, lead by competent FCs. They do this to overcome numbers advantages. Your premise is that anything that skilled organizations can use to overcome larger, unskilled enemies is unbalanced. If CCP agrees with you, god help this game.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:40:00 -
[1894]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Smart people use things that aren't modified missionrunning setups because they work in organized gangs of skilled PvPers, lead by competent FCs. They do this to overcome numbers advantages. Your premise is that anything that skilled organizations can use to overcome larger, unskilled enemies is unbalanced. If CCP agrees with you, god help this game.
Did you read the patch notes...we are here bud.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Sopha Serpentia
Core Dynamics
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 15:41:00 -
[1895]
Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 26/07/2008 15:42:41 This thread I like.
You can taste the 0.0 alliance tears, mmm delicious.
This this wins the forums. Im also impressed by the lack of bob or goon whines, I guess they don't roll like the nano***s.
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Manthrax
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:42:00 -
[1896]
*hands out tissue paper*
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:42:00 -
[1897]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Flavour of the month?
I think what you meant to say was flavour of the last four and a half years.
Also your implied logic that something should be nerfed because it gives those specialised in it an advantage over those that aren't is about as watertight as the titanic.
Fail.
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:42:00 -
[1898]
OMG, a group of 'skilled' players can zip around everyone else unless those other people are zippin around too or have tons of huggins/rapiers.
Not fun, bring back 2005. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Carrothead
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:45:00 -
[1899]
Originally by: PKlavins In honour of the short-range scram now acting as a web for any ship with a MWD, I now christen the 7.5km scram the "Wamble".
That is all.
Wamble it is... ccp should rename the shotr range scram as wamble :P
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:45:00 -
[1900]
Originally by: Kerfira
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
My bad I didn't know that training for HACs/Recons was training FOTM. I have the ability to fly every t2 cruser in this game, and you know what this patch will do? Make 50% of them not worth buying since a cheaper BC will out tank and out dps them.
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Sopha Serpentia
Core Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:46:00 -
[1901]
Originally by: The Economist
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Flavour of the month?
I think what you meant to say was flavour of the last four and a half years.
Also your implied logic that something should be nerfed because it gives those specialised in it an advantage over those that aren't is about as watertight as the titanic.
Fail.
No it being nerfed because its turning eve into a two trick pony. Heavy armoured warfare blobs or huggins.
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:46:00 -
[1902]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg OMG, a group of 'skilled' players can zip around everyone else unless those other people are zippin around too or have tons of huggins/rapiers.
Not fun, bring back 2005.
You just dont get it, you really dont.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:48:00 -
[1903]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Unbeatable lol
I-win lol.
lol.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:49:00 -
[1904]
Originally by: Kerfira
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
My bad I didn't know that training for HACs/Recons was training FOTM. I have the ability to fly every t2 cruser in this game, and you know what this patch will do? Make 50% of them not worth buying since a cheaper BC will out tank and out dps them.
Originally by: Sid Zero The more I think about these changes the more they're growing on me...
Both the Wolf and the Enyo are now much more viable choices for pvp when fitted with a scram and AB, and will dogfight very nicely within webrange.
Then someone shoots a missile at you and you run crying about how missiles are overpowered.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:50:00 -
[1905]
Originally by: Sopha Serpentia Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 26/07/2008 15:42:41 This thread I like.
You can taste the 0.0 alliance tears, mmm delicious.
This this wins the forums. Im also impressed by the lack of bob or goon whines, I guess they don't roll like the nano***s.
What a bob/goons? The biggest alliances in the game.
What do big groups do?
They blob.
What do the smaller groups (PL, tri, CI) do?
They nano to have a chance against blobs.
You've been missing the point all along. If CCP balances because of your skewed viewpoints then god help us.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:52:00 -
[1906]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Did you read the patch notes...we are here bud.
I give it ~6-9 months, I want to see what happens with Recons/Cloaks, and Logistics/RR. If they take a hit, then any form of asymmetric warfare is completely impossible in the game, and it isn't worth playing.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:53:00 -
[1907]
Edited by: The Economist on 26/07/2008 15:55:49
Originally by: Sopha Serpentia
No it being nerfed because its turning eve into a two trick pony. Heavy armoured warfare blobs or huggins.
Fair enough.
Let's analyze your statement:
Eve being turned into a two-trick pony.
Implies two-trick pony = bad.
Nerfing one trick leaves a one trick pony.
If a two trick pony is bad due to the lack of tricks; surely a one trick pony must be worse.
I therefore infer that you're against the nerf; thanks for your support
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:56:00 -
[1908]
Edited by: jitasucks on 26/07/2008 16:01:32
Originally by: Levaria Sounds like someones tissue papper nano setup got a boo boo...its ok....im sure you will harvest plenty of nano fails in the near future.
This is pretty funny, considering you should know for a fact that (PL at least) are not just nano***s (infact, afaik nano***s are very much a minority within PL as a whole with only OSHIT being really strong advocates (surprised? they're ex TRI!)), I mean didn't they hotdrop you a couple of weeks back with a load of carriers?
People constantly assume that the likes of TRI, PL, CI (ex) and a number of other entities that like to use nano style roaming gangs are a one trick pony; alliances built upon a single style of engagement without which, we, as a group of alliances who enjoy this fighting style, would be nothing.
It is going to be hilarious, then, when, post-nano-nerf, we login, jump into our next overpowered roaming gang setup, roll into your space and continue to **** in your cereal from a great height, much to your distaste and forum whines.
"But CCP, shouldn't our 100 man gang of T1, terribly fitted, terribly skilled 07/08 players with an FC who lacks any sort of positional awareness or tactical skill be able to fight off a gang a fifth of our size?"
It's not the ships that make the nanogang, its the abilities of the FC and the players behind the ships to make tactically important decisions - "do we engage here, can we pull this ship off here and gank it, are we now able to face the rest of their fleet head on and go in close?".
The utter skill and micromanagement that goes into fighting a blob 2-5x your size in a nanogang is just unfathomable to anyone who has yet to fly in a proper nanogang, under a skilled FC, with skilled gangmates. There is nothing better than your FC barely having to say a word (other than co-ordinate the fight as a whole) when your entire gang knows exactly what to do, how to do it, when to disengage and what to go for first. THIS is what it's like flying with a skilled fleet, not sitting in dock range on your conquerable station with your 45 buddies in Mark 3's while your FC herds cats trying to stop you from all getting killed...
You'll find, very soon after this nerf (again if it manages to make it past sisi), that the nano setups were simply setups developed by people with skill and intelligence to combat a growing problem that has been facing eve for the last couple of years, that of unskilled noob blobs whose only saving grace is the fact they have 200 people sat on a station along with 15 carriers and 2 motherships on standby.
You will also realise that these innovators, the people who devised the original nano setups, tactics and ways of combatting these blobs, are still here - still coming up with ways to get around the fact you have 3x the numbers and again continue to **** in your cornflakes.
Welcome to having CCP nerfing EVERYONE because of your epic whines and failing to realise that it won't fix your own incompetencies and lack of skilled FCs
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Groggmite
Minmatar The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 15:59:00 -
[1909]
OKAY I've played this game religiously for years and I'm now officially tired of whinny players always complaining of getting killed and this or that ship is overpowered. And I'm officially sick of CCP's knee jerk reaction and nerfs.
I'm sick of training for a ship and then see it nerfed to all hell(proposed web nerfs, carrier nerfs, cap ship cynoing inside shields nerf) or changed entirely (Amarr ships getting missiles)
The game was originally made of different factions with different strengths depending on that race's traits. That makes the game unique. Its unique also to the skills you take the time to train and master. Yet time after time, even the effectiveness of our skills are reduced by these nerfs. In addition, its not just a nerf if a few ships speed, its sweeping changes like changing how MWDs work and drastically reduce webby effectiveness. IMHO this will just make speed even more an issue. Webs take lock time to activate and its skilled based and then you are going to make then less effective after they do engage? Rubbish! If you balance something you don't make drastic changes on both sides of the pendulum.
So anyways just take all the ships away and let us pvp in Ibis' then maybe people will stop whining!
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gavhriel
Amarr Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:00:00 -
[1910]
more than 90% of 0.0 is totaly uninhabited ... cose noobs cant make it there..and the old people dont rat anyway :)
make it so noobs have a fighting chance against the nano gang bangers ... more happy pvp noobs ... more pvp ... more targets ... even the nano gang bangers are happy :)
the danger of making missles overpowered is real tho :P
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Sid Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:01:00 -
[1911]
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Sid Zero The more I think about these changes the more they're growing on me...
Both the Wolf and the Enyo are now much more viable choices for pvp when fitted with a scram and AB, and will dogfight very nicely within webrange.
Then someone shoots a missile at you and you run crying about how missiles are overpowered.
1) signature radius --> heavies won't do close to full dmg, lights aren't good on dps (unless cerb with assault launchers) 2) AF resistances 3) will have to wait and see.
I'm training Gal frig V in anticipation of these changes going through. If they don't, heck, it's only 7 days...
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Levaria
Gallente BirthIRight HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:03:00 -
[1912]
Edited by: Levaria on 26/07/2008 16:05:10
Originally by: jitasucks
Originally by: Levaria Sounds like someones tissue papper nano setup got a boo boo...its ok....im sure you will harvest plenty of nano fails in the near future.
This is pretty funny, considering you should know for a fact that (PL at least) are not just nano***s (infact, afaik nano***s are very much a minority within PL as a whole with only OSHIT being really strong advocates (surprised? they're ex TRI!)), I mean didn't they hotdrop you a couple of weeks back with a load of carriers?
People constantly assume that the likes of TRI, PL, CI (ex) and a number of other entities that like to use nano style roaming gangs are a one trick pony; alliances built upon a single style of engagement without which, we, as a group of alliances who enjoy this fighting style, would be nothing.
It is going to be hilarious, then, when, post-nano-nerf, we login, jump into our next overpowered roaming gang setup, roll into your space and continue to **** in your cereal from a great height, much to your distaste and forum whines.
"But CCP, shouldn't our 100 man gang of T1, terribly fitted, terribly skilled 07/08 players with an FC who lacks any sort of positional awareness or tactical skill be able to fight off a gang a fifth of our size?"
It's not the ships that make the nanogang, its the abilities of the FC and the players behind the ships to make tactically important decisions - "do we engage here, can we pull this ship off here and gank it, are we now able to face the rest of their fleet head on and go in close?".
You'll find, very soon after this nerf (again if it manages to make it past sisi), that the nano setups were simply setups developed by people with skill and intelligence to combat a growing problem that has been facing eve for the last couple of years, that of unskilled noob blobs whose only saving grace is the fact they have 200 people sat on a station along with 15 carriers and 2 motherships on standby.
You will also realise that these innovators, the people who devised the original nano setups, tactics and ways of combatting these blobs, are still here - still coming up with ways to get around the fact you have 3x the numbers and again continue to **** in your cornflakes.
Welcome to having CCP nerfing EVERYONE because of your epic whines and failing to realise that it won't fix your own incompetencies and lack of skilled FCs
When this alleged time of so called gnashing of teeth and lamentations of my enemies comes due to your so called "adaptation post nano nerf"..ill be sure to give you a cookie.
Just remember to watch out for the wambler.... ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
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Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:04:00 -
[1913]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco ... Now that is where is a difference between a non-nano gang and a nanogang. A nanogang can at least try to burst through the enemy fleet and if they are poorly organised engage it. Even if outnumbered 2 to 1. If the defence fleet is competent though, a nanogang will not score kills. Even if the defence fleet is not specifically setup to deal with nanos, with proper tactics they can make it impossible for the nanogang to get any kills. What it will typically end up with is the defence gang sitting on a gate, trying to snipe off Nano-HACs, while the nanofleet hovers at 100km distance trying to pickoff small ships in the enemy fleet that get repped by logistics ships.
Ehem, why should it be necessary to assemble a fleet to deal with a gang?
In essence you're saying that a nano-gang, just because they've fitted certain modules, should be able to engage and possibly defeat far more numerous foes.
While it is to some degree true that a well-fitted group should be able to outfight more numerous foes who don't fit their ships well (assuming they're equally good pilots), when a specific fit that cripples your group against anything but a nano-group is required, then the balance is broken.
If a nano-gang is caught moving the wrong way, they should be annihilated just like any other group! However, because they can disengage within seconds (below many opponents lock times), and can get out of web range in 2 seconds, they're pretty close to impossible to catch even when they make mistakes. THAT is where the big imbalance lies. Other ships die when they make mistakes! This kind of near-invulnerability hurts the game because it is so unbalanced towards other modes of play. Hence what we have now where nano-gangs are getting close to being the only ones flown, simply because they're the only ones not loosing out against other nano-gangs.
Don't give me the Huginn/Rapier excuse either. You know as well as I do that if a gang is fitted especially against nano-gangs, the only thing they'll get is no fights (or they'll die to any other kind of opponent).
On average, nano-ships should die as often as other ships of the same class. Both you and I know they don't (except maybr to other nano-ships), and that means only one thing: That nano'ing is broken!
qft
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Jakzin
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:04:00 -
[1914]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
I could not agree more. If someone brings in a specialized fleet, then it takes a specialized fleet to take them down...and this is a good thing. If there was one magic set up for ships then the game would be very dull, it would be WoW then. BRUCE alliance was the ideal example of what happens when you do not use specialized fleets, they believed that spider tanking battleships were the solution to all...and where are they now? Nano fleets are VERY easy to take down, and they can be fun to go against. Every ship has its benefits and its drawbacks, so figure out how to attack the weaknesses and any fleet can be brought down. Enough with the nerfs already, you guys are ruining the game! I would love to go up against a person with a Full set of HG Snakes and all the stuff mentioned in the dev blog, you take his nicely fitted ship and pod him he will feel that for a while...that is BILLIONS of ISK! That would actually make me physically sick if I lost that much from one ship loss, I probably would not log in for a few weeks. If crazy ideas for nerfs keep coming up, PvP is going to be no different from PvE and you will have successfully ruined the best MMO out there (that will be a great resume bullet).
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:05:00 -
[1915]
Originally by: The Economist
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: NoX PL Why you are nerfing high speed in every aspect? I was perfecting speed and nano ships for a long time and now i see that time spend on this would be a waste of time. I would understand little changes but this is insane.
And this'll happen everytime you train for FOTM!
You have, like so many others, trained for speed because you saw it gave you an almost unbeatable advantage to people who didn't. And you wonder why they're nerfing it???
If you train for the next FOTM I-Win button, you'll be caught out again when that is balanced down the line!
Flavour of the month?
I think what you meant to say was flavour of the last four and a half years.
Also your implied logic that something should be nerfed because it gives those specialised in it an advantage over those that aren't is about as watertight as the titanic.
Fail.
Nope! Win!
The keywords you missed were 'Almost Unbeatable Advantage' ....but then, you know that as well as I do... That's why you're fighting so hard not to loose it.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Baudolino
Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:07:00 -
[1916]
i looked over the list of factors effecting speed.
it would take about 5 billion isk to max out speed.
so because hundreds of players are poor PvPers, poor looser, but great cry-babies- CCP turn off the speed. Completely neglecting that 95% of all nano ships have a max speed of 3-4km/s and an orbit speed lower then that.
I`m sure players will adapt- they always do, but CCP is removing a playstyle that actually required great skill and insane amounts of isk to pull off effectively.
I`m very surprised CCP go about this as hard as they are. I`m not gonna doom the nerf, but PvP just got alot harder for small corporations and solo players.
WHAT IS CCP DOING FOR THE SMALL CORPS AND SOLO PLAYERS- thos who can`t field 10 carriers and 50 people in their gangs. What are you doing about those of us flying 1 or 2 or small gangs in the range of 3-5. What are you doing to keep us competitive?
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:07:00 -
[1917]
Great changes! Can't wait for the monday. Never thought that you guys will dare to make such radical rebalance.
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jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:08:00 -
[1918]
Originally by: Levaria When this alleged time of so called gnashing of teeth and lamentations of my enemies comes due to your so called "adaptation post nano nerf"..ill be sure to give you a cookie.
Who said anything about adaptions post nerf? The people flying nano setups are the ones constantly innovating, switching up their setups, their tactics, their styles of play, changing how they fight (whatever anyone says, nanos are NOT unbeatable and pulling the same shit every time, even in a nanogang against an incompetent and unskilled enemy will end up with you getting burnt and losing your ships). Adapting comes naturally (and is viewed as a challenge) to this type of player, as does voicing their distaste when they don't believe in the route in which the developers are taking their beloved game.
These are the hardcore.
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whoyoulookingat
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:10:00 -
[1919]
Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 26/07/2008 16:11:07 Another nail in the coffin for Minmatar ships.. way to go whiners Vaga will be useless, recons will be useless, BS's (well, useless for ages). Guess there's some others as well (not only minny) but won't take a genius to work out what.
Biggest problem with this game is that the Devs seem to listen to 5% who moan on the forums and can't adapt! Been playing this for too long now & it's shame that it's gone from a great game to Caps Online or maybe ISK online or how about whiners online or even POS (yawn) Online?
Easiest fix would have been to add a bit of code that caps the max speed of each ship.. e.g. doesn't matter then if you wanna fit all speed mods to get to "10k/s" as once it gets to "y (which is set to 2.5k/s)" it caps out & wont do anymore.
**rant off**
_____________________________________
Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
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Zia Lola
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:22:00 -
[1920]
Speed Crisis!!! -Missile and drones that cant catch a speeding ship-well it is supposed to be a speed tanking ship and if it doese not have it's speed then it is just a sitting duck(and my drones can go up to 7k) -Nerfing the speed is about killing half of the minmatar race!!! -Interceptors are faster than any nano fitted ship (if you need a proof get your fastest nano ship and join me to ingame-btw doese everything goes the way it was intented!!!) -Afterburners!!! and some other modules have almost no use so dont try to make them useful be more ingenious & create new modules for example a stasis web bubble!!! that would nurf speed. -For your info, speed can be encountered by many other ways then just by more speed again use your experience & imagination here is a hint: a BS with 2 heavy energy neut - 1 smartbomb and 1 ECM burst and no nano can harm it (just one of many different fitting)... -interceptors are much faster and cheaper. -A speed nerfed Hac or Recon VS a BS...who has more chance to stay alive & who will get an insurance help if killed? -Nerfing speed/reducing the stasis web effectiveness, a bit contradictory!!! -Large web bubble are not intended for BS (a bs even stuck in a small one, already have a big probleme) so reducing the diameter!! -Reducing the cap penality for MWD (did not get it right I think) but if it the case what happens to 1 of the Deimos attribute? -How many would use a marauder in PVP? so why more stasis attribute-make the stasis range bigger and that will help the inty's -BTW Nanoing is a tactic... -Warp dis/scram kill the MWD!!! then no more use for stasis!!!an inty with a scram = mostly deaddly (since no more speed). More over warp scramble/dis was not ment to kill speed!! -Speed is not a probleme or crisis, be ingeniuos & you'll figure out plenty of fittings to walk around nanoed ships & work your skills!!! -You have created the faction warfare, an interesting way to bring war to EMP, try to figure something to make 0.0 space more accesssible!! -What really needs to be worked out is more the sovregnity issue and not speed!! -Nano pilots have trained really long to get to that point, so they deserve a bit of respect (though I hate nano gangs because they are terribely hard to catch but this is part of the game and have to deal with it and not wait for CCP to help me out, so people crying about it work your skills out and be creative) -One last thing for CCP to really keep in mind: "I quit" wouldnt be a threat but more a fact, people who have been training long and long to get to the point to be able to fly a HAC or Recon at a certain speed and be happy about it, wont be glad if you just told them: hey dear players, sorry to inform you that you just have waisted all your time!!! The players are the clients, they are the ones who pays to play this lovely game, and the game in my opinion should be made to satisfy there demands and not the way you favore it (just reporting what you wrote)!!! and correct me if am wrong...
Sorry to be a pain in the ... it is not my kind of being but sometimes things have to be said the way they are. Beleive me I wont bother you again with the subject and I wont threat you that I'll quit, if I dont like the game or the way it might change, I'll just go play any other one :( said but true, and applies to any one in this world...
Be safe people and thank you for giving us the chance to states our opinnions, thank you for your effort and this lovely game. just please be careful about the way you change it. Thank you again
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:25:00 -
[1921]
guys guys they spent 5 hours talking about it, 5 HOURS. thats like almost a full workday.
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Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:26:00 -
[1922]
Quote: For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales
Im not mexican or anything but I kind of find it funny that a rep for a business uses a term that is considered to be quite racist and stereotypical. Whatever though. Anyone who wants to quit eve because of this term can send me their isk and contract me their stuff.
Now I first got into pvp waaaaay back when nanodomis + supervampires were pwnmobiles. orbit at 25km and you can basically kill anything; including capital ships because you eventually suck them dry though smartbombs would be hell. Ofcoarse we got threads and threads of whines because of that and we got a nerf... that nerf obviously wasnt enough... considering some ships fly like 50km/s and such...STILL. The guy is off grid in like 10 seconds... though that really isnt much of a person you need to worry about. It just puts a point of the issue though.
Quote: WhatÆs more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed, and so on in a dreadfully unidirectional tipping of the scales. There is no tension, just increasing slack. This is bad.
That is exactly right. Now I say that interceptors should be capable of reaching speeds where missles and such are nothing still... but vagabonds going this same speed is absolutely ridiculous. HACs should be at best near to getting away from missles BUT at the point where they become useless in that they have to orbit outside their optimal ranges or get caught up.
Now I'm happy with the changes suggested in the dev blog. Assuming that mass-agility was only adjusted and not base ship velocities... my slowboat dominix going like 120m/s is slow enough in that it doesnt need to be going any slower.
Quote: Webifiers Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.
This is ridiculous. Instead of doing this... what should be does is split webifiers for a new group.
Warp disruptors 1 strength 24km range Warp scramblers 2 strength 10km range.
Webifiers 90% strength 10km range new webs 60% strength 24km range.
This creates options... even people who would use 1 of each. Web them down say 60% and then get closer to them and pop on the other one.
Not to mention giving 24km range would shove the hacs out 25km at least to avoid being webbed which is further then their weaponry generally. Meaning their effectiveness is challenged. Not only that... it would make those minimatar recons worth something. They could be the ultimate anti-speed tools. This way there are many good anti-speed counter options and you eliminate the ever present "speed can only be countered by speed" ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Levaria
Gallente BirthIRight HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:26:00 -
[1923]
Guess its time to train up those missile skills...lest you can out run them..oh wait..you won't be able to quite soon....yarrrrr.. ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
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Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:26:00 -
[1924]
So, a few months ago CCP comes up with this awesome idea (so they said) called faction warfare so that all the nubs and veterans can share a pvp experience in empire if they want to.
the nubs join militas and start getting spanked by PL alts gank squads and the whining starts.
"zomg i can't kill an interceptor with my ubber t1 arbalest drake that cost me so much to get! and his buddys came and they all gang banged me! oh boy... now i have to go run 50 more level 3 missions so i can afford another drake like that... AND ITS ALL BECAUSE OF THE INTERCEPTOR!!! please CCP make my missiles hit them! it's unfair!!!"
something like this...
so the random nub spends 50m in a fitted drake, signs up in a milita, and decides to give it a try in the so called factional warfare pvp. on the other side we have a few veterans that decided to go gank nubs (this was expected), because there will be a ******ed ammount of targets (it's empire doh!) this gank squad fits for speed, which has been stated inumerous times to be a effective way (but not the only way) to fight blobs.
they have the isk, they have the experience, they have 80m sp chars and on the other side the random nub with his 2m sp char decides to venture himself and undock and go travel a few jumps expecting to kill something and feel the rush on his veins because he's actually seeing a PLAYER being targeted instead of a NPC.
then the gank squad scout, in his 5 billion implant set (last i checked, HG snakes + shaqil + all other hardwirings costed around this much) and flying around his t2 poly / gistii mwd / domi disruptor and web, with basically a CROW that is worth around 1.5b to 2b, tackles the drake, he can't kill the nub in the drake cause he has no DPS for the job and the drake can't kill him cause he's OMG-TOO-FAST-FOR-HIS-NEWBIE-MISSILES to hit him so the gank squad comes in and finishes the drake.
the random nub (like the other 30 thousand of them probably) makes a petition whining about how unfair is to have a 7billion investment HOLDING his 50m drake.
this was just an example of how CCP thinks it's FAIR to nerf the speed on the interceptor, they say: "it will still be faster than all the other ships and HG snakes will still be the best advantage over other implants", true but the only reason people invest in such implants is precisely the advantage of being able to literally RUN from gate camps, missiles, projectiles, hybrids, whatever...
I believe angel already said it, jumping into a 100 man gate camp with 8 large bubbles on the gate and being able to literally burn away and survive that camp is not something u should kill.
The game itself has ways to counter these so called "speedy gonzales", it's called huggins, rapiers and curses. basically neut and web an inty and see how fast it dies cause it is afterall... just a frigate.
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:27:00 -
[1925]
but because this is too hard for the random nub to train up, yes they all love to fly the "caldari easy mode mission running ships".
so once again, - CCP implements HEAT (overload), that DOUBLES speed, - CCP implements speed rigs, first it was the auxiliary thrusters, they got nerfed but polys got boosted (OOPS! WE DIDN'T SEE THAT COMMING!) but i understood this nerf, typhoons going around 18km/s was ******ed enough so something had to be done. now... those vagabonds (with a claymore + t2 polys + hg snakes, etc.) go around flying 28km/s (and they can go 40km/s if they overheat the mwd) deserves a nerf indeed, but fast ships (like the interceptor class ship) cannot be nerfed nor included in this so called "speed nerf"
what's supposed to be fast, keep it fast, what's supposed to be faster keep it faster, what's supposed to be slow, keep it slow.
balance it, don't kill it.
here's a suggestion CCP, why don't u develop some kind of "nerf" for the blobs and while you're at it, improve server performance so it can handle more than 200 ships fighting in the same grid. do that first, before u start comming up with those brilliant ideas (alas: faction warfare, new super-caps, etc) fix the game first, then bring more stuff in and balance it properly.
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
WarGod
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:29:00 -
[1926]
Sorry it was me!! some dev logged in to test how rats respond to people in belts (coz they fix important things)in his Harbinger and i killed him in my vaga that HAD A MWD!!! This calls for a nerf.
Wog1 |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:29:00 -
[1927]
Originally by: Gripen Great changes! Can't wait for the monday. Never thought that you guys will dare to make such radical rebalance.
I'm confused, are you being sarcastic, or did the original gripen sell you his account?
I'm assuming the guy who wrote EFT isn't an idiot.
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:30:00 -
[1928]
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
...
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
I could not agree more. If someone brings in a specialized fleet, then it takes a specialized fleet to take them down...and this is a good thing. If there was one magic set up for ships then the game would be very dull, it would be WoW then. BRUCE alliance was the ideal example of what happens when you do not use specialized fleets, they believed that spider tanking battleships were the solution to all...and where are they now? Nano fleets are VERY easy to take down, and they can be fun to go against. Every ship has its benefits and its drawbacks, so figure out how to attack the weaknesses and any fleet can be brought down. Enough with the nerfs already, you guys are ruining the game! I would love to go up against a person with a Full set of HG Snakes and all the stuff mentioned in the dev blog, you take his nicely fitted ship and pod him he will feel that for a while...that is BILLIONS of ISK! That would actually make me physically sick if I lost that much from one ship loss, I probably would not log in for a few weeks. If crazy ideas for nerfs keep coming up, PvP is going to be no different from PvE and you will have successfully ruined the best MMO out there (that will be a great resume bullet).
Could not agree more. It has probably been said in 75 pages but this really is a minnie nerf. You say that minnies are still the fastest, but look at it another way. Minnies are speed tanking race. They DO NOT ARMOR OR SHIELD TANK like every other race. Sure they can put together a mediocre setup to do either tank, but minnies speed tank. That is what they do. So killing speed across the board kills any sort of tanking ability that they once had = NOT COOL. These are completely drastic changes that are really unwarranted. Also, you killed the use for the gallente recons with the HIC, and now you are killing the minnie recons with the web nerf. Combine this with the speed nerf and the ROLES of the ship will be useless. A slow ship that is supposed to use range is a DEAD ship. Please actually think about the nerfs before you put them on the table gentlemen.
-Commander Tigre
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:31:00 -
[1929]
Interesting to note, virtually all the pro nerf posts on this thread are by people who essentially don't pvp unless they are tackled in a belt by people who do...Oh and we have a few posts by former MC people who thought caps online was pvp...and mistakingly believe their pvp prowess will return if nano's are nerfed...
Noah want to run missions together? I bet you are awesome at that!
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eXeGee
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:32:00 -
[1930]
Edited by: eXeGee on 26/07/2008 16:32:05
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote: Webifiers Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.
This is ridiculous. Instead of doing this... what should be does is split webifiers for a new group.
Warp disruptors 1 strength 24km range Warp scramblers 2 strength 10km range.
Webifiers 90% strength 10km range new webs 60% strength 24km range.
[...]
i must say its interesting idea :) more promising than scrambl turning off mwd and web nerfing
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:35:00 -
[1931]
Originally by: Spartac0 then the gank squad scout, in his 5 billion implant set (last i checked, HG snakes + shaqil + all other hardwirings costed around this much) and flying around his t2 poly / gistii mwd / domi disruptor and web, with basically a CROW that is worth around 1.5b to 2b, tackles the drake, he can't kill the nub in the drake cause he has no DPS for the job and the drake can't kill him cause he's OMG-TOO-FAST-FOR-HIS-NEWBIE-MISSILES to hit him so the gank squad comes in and finishes the drake.
I don't know exactly how much evil edna spent on his crow (esta bcu, t2 polys, dg launchers, gistii a-type mwd, domi ods, rf point + web) and snakes, but I'm guessing it was somewhere in the region of around 8b all in with his clone; he lost it to 2 chinese farmers in a raven and a drake.
Unkillable my ass, sure they're hard to catch but damn does it sting when you get caught.
The only way he was ever able to kill anything was either if it was plated only, or he caught it in a belt in front of rats
It's pretty funny when people spend these obscene amounts of isk on such persuits because it's fun for them and they can afford it; the thing is, in the grand scheme of things a couple of super pimped nano ships are relatively ineffective and usually aimed totally at speed, unable to put down any real damage of their own. And yet, they still anger every carebear and his sister enough to make whine posts on the forums.
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:35:00 -
[1932]
Originally by: Spartac0 but because this is too hard for the random nub to train up, yes they all love to fly the "caldari easy mode mission running ships".
so once again, - CCP implements HEAT (overload), that DOUBLES speed, - CCP implements speed rigs, first it was the auxiliary thrusters, they got nerfed but polys got boosted (OOPS! WE DIDN'T SEE THAT COMMING!) but i understood this nerf, typhoons going around 18km/s was ******ed enough so something had to be done. now... those vagabonds (with a claymore + t2 polys + hg snakes, etc.) go around flying 28km/s (and they can go 40km/s if they overheat the mwd) deserves a nerf indeed, but fast ships (like the interceptor class ship) cannot be nerfed nor included in this so called "speed nerf"
what's supposed to be fast, keep it fast, what's supposed to be faster keep it faster, what's supposed to be slow, keep it slow.
balance it, don't kill it.
here's a suggestion CCP, why don't u develop some kind of "nerf" for the blobs and while you're at it, improve server performance so it can handle more than 200 ships fighting in the same grid. do that first, before u start comming up with those brilliant ideas (alas: faction warfare, new super-caps, etc) fix the game first, then bring more stuff in and balance it properly.
Posting to agree with the BoB guy
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:38:00 -
[1933]
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mentalmonkey
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:39:00 -
[1934]
Loving the tears, this fix is fine, hope CCP goes through with it, cant wait to use AF with AB and have a use of the gallente recons, and Inty can get away with close-range AB fits (woo Taranis). Train FOTM / spec for it you should expect this, I only put a few skills into jumping on the nano band wagon in full knowledge this would happen, I wont feel this nerf much as I dont pimp my ships to attain the insane speeds.
IMO many ships will still be fine to nano (and I probably will), just because you dont have inviciblity speeds (yes there are counters. I know.) you will still avoid MOST damage if you just think and change your fittings and tactics.
Thank you CCP this looks like a good fix.
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Erok Starbringer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:39:00 -
[1935]
Well it's about time, pvp had devolved into fast moving conformity, not to mention missiles are almost unusable for pvp in small gang warfare. Guerrilla warefare btw is not only speedy hit and runs; it's cloak ambush, bait traps, and other types of tactics that don't utilize straight forward slug fest warfare.
And what is with the blob complaints? Don't you think if 4 thousand people all hook up together they should be able to control a region of space? - the Black ops and covert aspects of warfare will be looked at more- this may move the devs to finaly fix the black ops ships as the need to get behind enemy lines will still exist- but will be more limited when by untouchable fast moving gangs can effectivly ignore choke points with bubbles. 20 ships of all the same class moving fast enough to run through bubble after bubble across entire regions of space and still pack enough punch to chew through any cross section of ships in a fleet of equale size (minus capitals) pushes people to respond by making there own 20 ship nano hac fleet- look at the price of Poly rigs everyone buys them cause there is not an effective alternative counter for that kind of fleet. I like battles with dif ship classes this will help with specialization of role. Change is good, After all the global banking system is going down in flames s half of us prolly won't be able to afford to live in fantsy land eve soon anyway might as well enjoy a change of pace while we can : )
Would be nice if the word HEAVY in the title Heavy Assault Cruiser actually meant something...
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Levaria
Gallente BirthIRight HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:41:00 -
[1936]
Edited by: Levaria on 26/07/2008 16:42:06 Hehe so if my ass is not breaking warp factor 10 its automatically assummed i must be a carebear and or mission runner? Im sorry that your cookie cutter niche of "Im nano i thou shall pontificate to make my epeen larger".. Right....For once versitility is forced down your throat..sure tastes great...not being able to go that fast...and all that ISK down the drain for the implants..tisk tisk...Better watch out for them missiles...I hear they go FAST! ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:42:00 -
[1937]
Originally by: Mr Rive
Originally by: Spartac0 but because this is too hard for the random nub to train up, yes they all love to fly the "caldari easy mode mission running ships".
so once again, - CCP implements HEAT (overload), that DOUBLES speed, - CCP implements speed rigs, first it was the auxiliary thrusters, they got nerfed but polys got boosted (OOPS! WE DIDN'T SEE THAT COMMING!) but i understood this nerf, typhoons going around 18km/s was ******ed enough so something had to be done. now... those vagabonds (with a claymore + t2 polys + hg snakes, etc.) go around flying 28km/s (and they can go 40km/s if they overheat the mwd) deserves a nerf indeed, but fast ships (like the interceptor class ship) cannot be nerfed nor included in this so called "speed nerf"
what's supposed to be fast, keep it fast, what's supposed to be faster keep it faster, what's supposed to be slow, keep it slow.
balance it, don't kill it.
here's a suggestion CCP, why don't u develop some kind of "nerf" for the blobs and while you're at it, improve server performance so it can handle more than 200 ships fighting in the same grid. do that first, before u start comming up with those brilliant ideas (alas: faction warfare, new super-caps, etc) fix the game first, then bring more stuff in and balance it properly.
Posting to agree with the BoB guy
Stop it, we all know full well common sense and intelligence has no place in eve, only what brings in most subscriptions, because lets face it the hardware cant do the job and some one has to pay the bills, dont hide behind stupid stats and ignorance, tell us how it is, we might leave but we'd respect you for it, at least i would, so come on CCP do it, no really, do it, tell us what the bottom line is.
If you dont have the balls just f**k off and make this game exactly what you didnt intend it to be.
It might not taste nice but the truth is its own reward.
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Cosy
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:44:00 -
[1938]
Originally by: Tobruk guys guys they spent 5 hours talking about it, 5 HOURS. thats like almost a full workday.
plz link i cant belive that
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Any complaints can be directed towards our Music Director
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:44:00 -
[1939]
Originally by: mentalmonkey Loving the tears, this fix is fine, hope CCP goes through with it, cant wait to use AF with AB and have a use of the gallente recons, and Inty can get away with close-range AB fits (woo Taranis). Train FOTM / spec for it you should expect this, I only put a few skills into jumping on the nano band wagon in full knowledge this would happen, I wont feel this nerf much as I dont pimp my ships to attain the insane speeds.
IMO many ships will still be fine to nano (and I probably will), just because you dont have inviciblity speeds (yes there are counters. I know.) you will still avoid MOST damage if you just think and change your fittings and tactics.
Thank you CCP this looks like a good fix.
lol at you and assault frigates.
Wake the f**k up.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:02:00 -
[1940]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If that was the case ppl would be flying them moron.
but you have to give it a chance lima bean (from Pandemic). Right now its going to seem crazy and undo-able for PL and Tri. And believe me, I understand. It'll take time getting used to. Us carebears go through this all the time and we just move on and adapt. But you know what? Pandemic Legion and Tri can do it as well. It's what makes Eve great, trust me :)
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jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:02:00 -
[1941]
Edited by: jitasucks on 26/07/2008 17:02:45 It's gonna be alright, Matrix Skye from State War Academy. You just need to re-think your argument. Nanos are ok and all, but they're not an unbeatable tactic. But now you got them nerfed by whining, you're going to have no excuse when you go to Sisi and test the changes (and still get owned in the face). It wont be that bad. It's just a matter of rethinking outside of caldari, and maybe using the few braincells you were gifted with to actually come up with a solution to the challenge instead of crying to get it fixed. That's all. There are lots of fits that can work aginst nanos. You just have to try them :).
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:02:00 -
[1942]
Edited by: Commander Tigre on 26/07/2008 17:03:20
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Grath Telkin See, this proves how little how many people know about flying fast. This is NOT what you do in a Nano boat.
Your entire time you make course corrections, rarely orbiting ever at all. Why? A cloaked rapier or some other ship could easily predict your orbit and be in the way when you come around, so you keep your course unpredictable by making near CONSTANT minute adjustments to your ship.
It is honestly the closest thing to actually flying your ship you will get in EVE.
It takes skill, patience, and a full understanding of both your ship, and EVERY OTHER SHIP on the field that is against you, plus constant micro management of sub systems like ship scanners monitoring the system your fighting in.
Sure, you could just click orbit and switch on your MWD, but its a near promise that you would loose your pretty 2-5 billion investment in a flash of stupidity.
It's gonna be alright, Grath from Pandemic Legion. You just need to re-think your set up. Nanos are good and all, the best actually. But now there's more variety. Go to Sisi and test the changes. It wont be that bad. It's just a matter of rethinking outside of nanos. That's all. There lots of fits that can work. Just give it a chance :).
And what is your proposed fix for a minnie tank? Should it be armor tank, where any gallente or amarr BS will outlast you clear until downtime? Or should we fly drakes and Rohks to shield tank? Again I ask, what should minnies tank for? Speed (at the purposed levels) is easily destroyed by missile spamming...
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Cogline Boh
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:03:00 -
[1943]
Edited by: Cogline Boh on 26/07/2008 17:03:45
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote: For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales
Im not mexican or anything but I kind of find it funny that a rep for a business uses a term that is considered to be quite racist and stereotypical. Whatever though. Anyone who wants to quit eve because of this term can send me their isk and contract me their stuff.
How the F... is that racist or stereotypical? Speedy Gonzales was a mouse with a Spanish accent who was really fast. That's a fact. As far as I know, he never lost, at anything, so if anything, being compared to him should be a compliment.
On the other hand, he was also a cartoon, so anyone who feels anything other than amusement when hearing a reference to him is a moron.
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Kal'Kalagan
Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:03:00 -
[1944]
It seems that Minmatar are being nerfed back to the stone age.
Successive hitpoint inreases have wiped out arty alpha advantages. T2 ammo nerfs have killed of the arty range advantage over other snipers. Nos nerf killed the great compensator for our split weapon systems Now speed nerf to kill off our nano capabilities and web nerf to kill off the our crusier class ships.
For every ship class Minmatar will now be the inferior choice.
additionally I see a bleak future for those of us who fly solo or in small gangs vs more numerous oponents. I fear solo travel will be a thing of the past in anything but a ceptor or force recon.
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Admiral Brutii
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:04:00 -
[1945]
all I can say is im considering quitting EVE now and moving to a different game. I know a lot of people are thinking the same thing.
Intys wont be able to tackle; HAC's wont be able to speed tank; Blasterboats wont be able to get in range of anything to kill.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
I bet this idea came from the same guy who wanted to nerf the carrier by only being able to use them if they are delegated. IDIOTS
I understand having a maximum speed for a ship but to completely take away a ships ability is stupid.
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Kalvin Braunberg
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:05:00 -
[1946]
Edited by: Kalvin Braunberg on 26/07/2008 17:05:27
Originally by: Matrix Skye It's gonna be alright, Grath from Pandemic Legion. You just need to re-think your set up. Nanos are good and all, the best actually. But now there's more variety. Go to Sisi and test the changes. It wont be that bad. It's just a matter of rethinking outside of nanos. That's all. There lots of fits that can work. Just give it a chance :).[/quote
Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:05:00 -
[1947]
And, on sisi, how are you going to replicate a standard day PVPing in 0.0 / lowsec for testing these changes and how they will effect PVP overall? Jump bridging/Cyno Jammers/Titans/Capital Blobs/Fleets/Small gangs + Lag? Because testing it out, in FFA1 in fd-, just isn't going to cut it.
Just curious. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:06:00 -
[1948]
Originally by: Kal'Kalagan It seems that Minmatar are being nerfed back to the stone age.
Successive hitpoint inreases have wiped out arty alpha advantages. T2 ammo nerfs have killed of the arty range advantage over other snipers. Nos nerf killed the great compensator for our split weapon systems Now speed nerf to kill off our nano capabilities and web nerf to kill off the our crusier class ships.
For every ship class Minmatar will now be the inferior choice.
additionally I see a bleak future for those of us who fly solo or in small gangs vs more numerous oponents. I fear solo travel will be a thing of the past in anything but a ceptor or force recon.
The funny thing is that CCP wanted smaller gang sizes, and not these massive 250+ a side gangs that lag a whole region down... CCP if you really do read this, what is your plan here because you are leaning towards the bigger gang is better without improving your hardware to handle it...
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
melas teerts
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:06:00 -
[1949]
If this nerf goes ahead then i have only one thing to ask, let me remove my rigs on my ships so ican sell them to make some bloody isk back and go back to 1 frame a minute blob warfare.
I understand some of the problems, but to nerf so much of the game in one go will kill it, i can see alot of people leaving eve and waiting for JGE, i am now tempted to do this.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:07:00 -
[1950]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If that was the case ppl would be flying them moron.
but you have to give it a chance lima bean (from Pandemic). Right now its going to seem crazy and undo-able for PL and Tri. And believe me, I understand. It'll take time getting used to. Us carebears go through this all the time and we just move on and adapt. But you know what? Pandemic Legion and Tri can do it as well. It's what makes Eve great, trust me :)
FYI ive never flown a nano ship in PL ever so dropping my alliance name like i am biased makes you look like a idiot, and if your a carebear why would you care unless your a wannabe bitter pvper who tried and failed so gets his pleasure from others being nerfed.
Removing any form of pvp from a pvp game is a bad idea but having to listen to a ******ed carebear preaching about pvp and how nefs are a good thing is a joke and so are you.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:08:00 -
[1951]
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
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Mzr
Gallente Session9 Malum Exuro
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:10:00 -
[1952]
About the web changes.. don't know if it was suggested yet (didn't read all the posts), but maybe this is a good idea.
Have the web scripted. Un-scripted web at 10km, 50-60% speed reduction.
Script 1: Increase the web strength. 80-90% at 10km. Script 2: Increase the range: 10-15km (dev's choose a number, I'd go 15). 50-60% strength or strength decreased to 35-40%.
Ofc it needs some more thinking and tweaking till we see it on TQ due to usage on specialized ships (hyena, rapier, huginn). But my guess this would be neat change.
Was a suggestion in response for this: "I cant in all honesty see what your motivation is for 90% of the nerf, you want to reduce speed so you nerf the one mod in game to counter it." |
Akira Shan
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:10:00 -
[1953]
Edited by: Akira Shan on 26/07/2008 17:11:31
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
Which is NOT more variety. You just named 3 option. Sheild, armor, speed. Then said one is being taken away. This is someehow more options???
Go back to grade school and learn basic math please.
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Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:11:00 -
[1954]
Originally by: Admiral Brutii all I can say is im considering quitting EVE now and moving to a different game. I know a lot of people are thinking the same thing.
Can I have your stuff?
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:11:00 -
[1955]
Originally by: Matrix Skye That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
I think we should maybe just nerf all EVE players who use their brain at any point while playing and make autopilot permanently on, this is the game I wish to play, wouldn't you Matrix?
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Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:12:00 -
[1956]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
This guy has to be a troll. I mean, you can't be that stupid, can you.
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jitasucks
The Peoples Republic of Uganda
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:13:00 -
[1957]
Originally by: Shamharoth This guy has to be a troll. I mean, you can't be that stupid, can you.
If there's one thing I've learned over the past 4 years I've played eve, it is that ANYONE can be that stupid.
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GreGh Rakrot
Rionnag Alba
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:14:00 -
[1958]
Originally by: Cosy
Originally by: Tobruk guys guys they spent 5 hours talking about it, 5 HOURS. thats like almost a full workday.
plz link i cant belive that
dev blog, 3rd paragraph, last sentence |
Kalvin Braunberg
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:14:00 -
[1959]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
Wow, your actually dense aren't you? 2 options is less than 3 options, last time I checked basic math.
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Jakzin
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:15:00 -
[1960]
Edited by: Jakzin on 26/07/2008 17:14:58
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
Go ahead with all your infinite wisdom and tell us how you would set up a vagabond then. I would love for you to show us the error of our ways!
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:15:00 -
[1961]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Except there is absolutely NOT more variety? Where exactly is this more variety coming from?? They aren't adding a new class of ships, thay are making a whole range of ships completely useless.
The "Variety" will be dead with this nerf. All thats left if brick tanking and hitting fire. The thing that actually takes skill and rediculous amounts of micromanagment in this game, is the speed game.
That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
oh yeah.. then by your reasoning my dps should be tripled aswell.. you fail
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:23:00 -
[1962]
Originally by: Matrix Skye That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
And why do you think Shield and Armour tanks should be superior to Speed tanks? Right now, you are just angry that you can't blob all your problems away against nanos like you can with Armour/Shield tanks. _______________
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:24:00 -
[1963]
Originally by: jitasucks
Originally by: Matrix Skye no dood. basted ********* were overpowered and now they'll be in-line. you're over reacting. i know you're upset but just TEST IT OUT first before whining. Sometimes us phallus garglers whine and overreact so i understand where you're coming from. but its not that bad. it will make things interesting in the summerhouse. coming across a troupe of rabid apes was killing the game since the outcome was either a balloon party or clown ****. but now there might be other outcomes. it wont be all fun and games. give it a chance.
no no no thats not what i said at all
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:25:00 -
[1964]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Matrix Skye That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
And why do you think Shield and Armour tanks should be superior to Speed tanks? Right now, you are just angry that you can't blob all your problems away against nanos like you can with Armour/Shield tanks.
but im not angry any more . i think its time we just moved on and tried to leave things as is (after the august patch) and try and work on bettering the games ourselves as players.
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Jakzin
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:26:00 -
[1965]
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Removing any form of pvp from a pvp game is a bad idea but having to listen to a ******ed carebear preaching about pvp and how nefs are a good thing is a joke and so are you.
no dood. nanos were overpowered and now they'll be in-line. you're over reacting. i know you're upset but just TEST IT OUT first before whining. Sometimes us carebears whine and overreact so i understand where you're coming from. but its not that bad. it will make things interesting in the battlefield. coming across a gang of nanos was killing the game since the outcome was either death to the non-nanos or escape for the nanos. but now there might be other outcomes. it wont be all doom and gloom. give it a chance.
It was only doom and gloom because you were not prepared/capable of taking on a nano-gang. I have seen many nano gangs get owned by non nano gangs setup for killing them. Multiple BS with heavy nuets, webbing inties, even sentry drones.
I could not agree more. Nano ships are easy to kill, especially once you have their cap drained and them webbed. The pop pretty easy at that point.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:26:00 -
[1966]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Matrix Skye That's because you haven't yet seen the benefits of fitting other than nanos. And that's ok because nanos were a little over-powered and are being brought in line with armor and shield tanks. Shield and armor now becomes a better option. See?
And why do you think Shield and Armour tanks should be superior to Speed tanks? Right now, you are just angry that you can't blob all your problems away against nanos like you can with Armour/Shield tanks.
but im not angry any more . i think its time we just moved on and tried to leave things as is (after the august patch) and try and work on bettering the games ourselves as players.
You are a good troll. _______________
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Barasu
Minmatar Earned In Blood
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:27:00 -
[1967]
To all those leaving please contract me your stuff. To the nano***** ***s who are whining grow up and fly a real ship. To those blobbing **** YOU and to OSHIT you guys suck if you can't go over 15km/s and that vaga that did 20k/s is messed up. Continue your whines now I will send cheese as requested you ***s.
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Kalvin Braunberg
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:27:00 -
[1968]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Archetype02 nano ships compensate by lower dps compared to any tanking ship of the same value.. if you fit a propper tank no nano can solo your bs, but with your uber fitting and player experience i find this highly unlikely.
The first step is to let go of "nanos this nanos that". Nano ships are a fit that we as players use. It has become THE ONLY FIT almost and exclusively. Try something other than the vaga or ishtar. If you can't then you should be thinking to yourself, "wow, if these are the only ships I'm willing to use because the rest just aren't as good, maybe there is a problem". See?
Or maybe they are popular ships because they require a high amount of SP and skill to fly well. Ever think of that?
And I don't know what game you play, but hacs are hardly "THE ONLY FIT". Not to mention the large number of people flying these ships because they "think" they ar an I win button, and then mess up and die easily because they find the ship is anything but that.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:27:00 -
[1969]
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Removing any form of pvp from a pvp game is a bad idea but having to listen to a ******ed carebear preaching about pvp and how nefs are a good thing is a joke and so are you.
no dood. nanos were overpowered and now they'll be in-line. you're over reacting. i know you're upset but just TEST IT OUT first before whining. Sometimes us carebears whine and overreact so i understand where you're coming from. but its not that bad. it will make things interesting in the battlefield. coming across a gang of nanos was killing the game since the outcome was either death to the non-nanos or escape for the nanos. but now there might be other outcomes. it wont be all doom and gloom. give it a chance.
It was only doom and gloom because you were not prepared/capable of taking on a nano-gang. I have seen many nano gangs get owned by non nano gangs setup for killing them. Multiple BS with heavy nuets, webbing inties, even sentry drones.
I could not agree more. Nano ships are easy to kill, especially once you have their cap drained and them webbed. The pop pretty easy at that point.
That's the hard part you dipshit. Ofc its easy to kill someting with 60% of its structure gone to modules. Its actualyl catching the things with nos and webs that's the problem. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:28:00 -
[1970]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 17:29:21
Originally by: Matrix Skye .. lots of noob spam i cba to endure you people with AGAIN.
because you fail at killing nano's doesnt make nano's overpowered. it makes you a noob
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
That's the hard part you dipshit. Ofc its easy to kill someting with 60% of its structure gone to modules. Its actualyl catching the things with nos and webs that's the problem.
wait let me rephrase this..
a nano pilot managed to be superioir to me and stay out of webber and neut range. i died because he was the better pilot "whiiiineeee"
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Daelin Blackleaf
The Reclaimed
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:28:00 -
[1971]
Any chance of a mod coming in here and clearing out all the posts that break the forum rules?
We've got clear repeated breaches of rules 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11, 16, 19, and 20 by certain users and it's proving highly detrimental to any form of discussion. While I'm not usually the sort to agree with strict enforcement of rules regarding expression of opinion the sheer level hostility, deliberate offensiveness, and general ass-hattery has gone beyond the realms of reason.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:30:00 -
[1972]
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg Or maybe they are popular ships because they require a high amount of SP and skill to fly well. Ever think of that?
And I don't know what game you play, but hacs are hardly "THE ONLY FIT". Not to mention the large number of people flying these ships because they "think" they ar an I win button, and then mess up and die easily because they find the ship is anything but that.
nah i think they are overpowered. but they will be more in line with armor and shield tankers. it's going to make fights interesting just wait and see.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:30:00 -
[1973]
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Archetype02 nano ships compensate by lower dps compared to any tanking ship of the same value.. if you fit a propper tank no nano can solo your bs, but with your uber fitting and player experience i find this highly unlikely.
The first step is to let go of "nanos this nanos that". Nano ships are a fit that we as players use. It has become THE ONLY FIT almost and exclusively. Try something other than the vaga or ishtar. If you can't then you should be thinking to yourself, "wow, if these are the only ships I'm willing to use because the rest just aren't as good, maybe there is a problem". See?
Or maybe they are popular ships because they require a high amount of SP and skill to fly well. Ever think of that?
And I don't know what game you play, but hacs are hardly "THE ONLY FIT". Not to mention the large number of people flying these ships because they "think" they ar an I win button, and then mess up and die easily because they find the ship is anything but that.
Skill to orbit at 100km and only approach gates at warp? Yea right. You dont have to scout in a nano, just enter system and soom from gate. Then scury around looking for solo kills or other nano-gangs, avoiding any kind of conventional defense fleet because you're pathetic against it.
So, teh nano-gang just sits at 100km flying or moves on, unless the defense gang brings their own nano's or huginns. At that point its most often then not a chase, cause who wants a real fight in a nano. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:31:00 -
[1974]
Originally by: Barasu To all those leaving please contract me your stuff. To the nano***** ***s who are whining grow up and fly a real ship. To those blobbing **** YOU and to OSHIT you guys suck if you can't go over 15km/s and that vaga that did 20k/s is messed up. Continue your whines now I will send cheese as requested you ***s.
Thats cool I never travel at under 25km/sec anyway
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:31:00 -
[1975]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Look at all the headless chickens going nuts over their nano nerf . Adapt or die noobs. Tri and PL, are you ******s? Must it always be nanos? Learn to think and maybe just maybe you may survive the cold harsh unforgiving space of Eve, what it should be. Why do you cry over nanos? Could it be because you're useless without them? Here's a hint: This will add variety to the game. Stop crying to CCP every time your i-win button is fixed. Boohoo . It's not the end of the world, even if you decide to quit. Go back to your hangars and undust those other ships you have, you know, besides the those ishtars and vagas?
What CCP is doing is making the game enjoyable to more players other than the nano ho's from Pandemic, Triumvirate and friends. Don't like the change? Give me your stuffz and quit.
lol at you and adding variety to the game, when did your IQ drop below that of a brick, you f**kers just wont learn, its not that speed is overpowered its that your all to stupid, lazy, or scared to work out how to counter it, we've had 2 posts in almost 80 pages from people saying they've adapted and killed nano's, so are they really more intelligent than you? personally I dont know, what i do know is that they've looked at the problem and solved it, something you hapless low IQ c**ksuckers cant, wont, or are able to work out for yourselves.
Eve is not for you people, it never was and never shouldn't have been but now your here CCP want your money and dont want to lose it.
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:32:00 -
[1976]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 17:32:43
Originally by: Matrix Skye
nah i think they are overpowered. but they will be more in line with armor and shield tankers. it's going to make fights interesting just wait and see.
wait.. 50 people came with 50 reasons why your point is flawed and yet you still repeat the same bullcrap.. sigh, instead of wait and see why dont you come with a perfectly formulated plan why this soudnt ruin half the game ?.. Oh and make it quick i hear CCP only took 5 hours.
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Kalvin Braunberg
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:32:00 -
[1977]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
That's the hard part you dipshit. Ofc its easy to kill someting with 60% of its structure gone to modules. Its actualyl catching the things with nos and webs that's the problem.
Contrary to what CCP seem to think in this blog. T2 fit Inties are very good at running down nano-hacs. 90% of hacs are NOT fitting HG-snakes and T2 Rigs, and the ones that are, can still be caught by a similarly expensive and skilled inty.
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Barasu
Minmatar Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:32:00 -
[1978]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Barasu To all those leaving please contract me your stuff. To the nano***** ***s who are whining grow up and fly a real ship. To those blobbing **** YOU and to OSHIT you guys suck if you can't go over 15km/s and that vaga that did 20k/s is messed up. Continue your whines now I will send cheese as requested you ***s.
Thats cool I never travel at under 25km/sec anyway
no shit and you don't fly ships that can be killed. This is basically 2 mwds all over again
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:33:00 -
[1979]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg That's the hard part you dipshit. Ofc its easy to kill someting with 60% of its structure gone to modules. Its actualyl catching the things with nos and webs that's the problem.
No, it really isn't, get a Rapier, web it and scram it. Then let the damage hit it. It's over.
Originally by: Barasu To all those leaving please contract me your stuff. To the nano***** ***s who are whining grow up and fly a real ship. To those blobbing **** YOU and to OSHIT you guys suck if you can't go over 15km/s and that vaga that did 20k/s is messed up. Continue your whines now I will send cheese as requested you ***s.
Please tell me why tanked ships are real ships and nano ships aren't?
Also a Vaga going 20km/s is only going to go 150m/s when it's double webbed. Not to mention it costs about 6/7 billion + a friend in a claymore. _______________
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:34:00 -
[1980]
Originally by: Dray lol at you and adding variety to the game, when did your IQ drop below that of a brick, you f**kers just wont learn, its not that speed is overpowered its that your all to stupid, lazy, or scared to work out how to counter it, we've had 2 posts in almost 80 pages from people saying they've adapted and killed nano's, so are they really more intelligent than you? personally I dont know, what i do know is that they've looked at the problem and solved it, something you hapless low IQ c**ksuckers cant, wont, or are able to work out for yourselves.
Eve is not for you people, it never was and never shouldn't have been but now your here CCP want your money and dont want to lose it.
your mean your just a little irate (are you PL? Tri?) and i totally understand. i'll say it again, nanos were overpowered and now they'll be more in line with armor and shields. this IS a good thing! after the change let's just try to roll with the punches. give it time to play out.
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Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:34:00 -
[1981]
Originally by: Spartac0 but because this is too hard for the random nub to train up, yes they all love to fly the "caldari easy mode mission running ships".
so once again, - CCP implements HEAT (overload), that DOUBLES speed, - CCP implements speed rigs, first it was the auxiliary thrusters, they got nerfed but polys got boosted (OOPS! WE DIDN'T SEE THAT COMMING!) but i understood this nerf, typhoons going around 18km/s was ******ed enough so something had to be done. now... those vagabonds (with a claymore + t2 polys + hg snakes, etc.) go around flying 28km/s (and they can go 40km/s if they overheat the mwd) deserves a nerf indeed, but fast ships (like the interceptor class ship) cannot be nerfed nor included in this so called "speed nerf"
what's supposed to be fast, keep it fast, what's supposed to be faster keep it faster, what's supposed to be slow, keep it slow.
balance it, don't kill it.
here's a suggestion CCP, why don't u develop some kind of "nerf" for the blobs and while you're at it, improve server performance so it can handle more than 200 ships fighting in the same grid. do that first, before u start comming up with those brilliant ideas (alas: faction warfare, new super-caps, etc) fix the game first, then bring more stuff in and balance it properly.
Supported and agreed. Vagabonds should be uncatchable by anything other than ceptors or recons, though they should tank a little bit real damage, not have 99% damage reduction. Rest of Minmatar ships should speed tank a quite bit, but not >>3kms.
Nerf polys (stacking penalties), slightly nerf snakes, rework ship base speeds.
If all other HACs are rubish when not nanoed, REWORK THEM.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:35:00 -
[1982]
Originally by: Barasu
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Barasu To all those leaving please contract me your stuff. To the nano***** ***s who are whining grow up and fly a real ship. To those blobbing **** YOU and to OSHIT you guys suck if you can't go over 15km/s and that vaga that did 20k/s is messed up. Continue your whines now I will send cheese as requested you ***s.
Thats cool I never travel at under 25km/sec anyway
no shit and you don't fly ships that can be killed. This is basically 2 mwds all over again
Check their killboard, they have a losses page. On that losses page there are ships, these ships are the ones that are UNKILLABLE SUPER MACHINES HAX EXPLOIT ships, yet somehow they died. _______________
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Susitna
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 17:35:00 -
[1983]
Edited by: Susitna on 26/07/2008 17:35:28
Originally by: Sir Quentin
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
Areo
I keep seeing this reposted and reposted. I could not disagree more with this statement. To me it reads - newbs should not be able to play this game with those that have T-2 ships and played long enough to fit for speed.
While it true that missiles are a faster train than guns and don't need to track, I hardly think that should that make them totally ineffective and not even considered for the PVP game? Part of the charm of EVE is that new players can quickly train and compete with much older players and even beat them if they bring numbers. New players need to be effective pretty quick in their EVE experience or they will leave and the game will die.
The current game model already takes ship size and speed into account and missile damage is reduced. The problem is that rigs and implants push speed to ludicrous levels the model can't handle. http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_3.asp
I totally support these changes and think the Devs stated Goals are dead on. I will repost them in case some of you skipped them. * Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. * There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. * Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. * Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
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Kalvin Braunberg
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:35:00 -
[1984]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Skill to orbit at 100km and only approach gates at warp? Yea right. You dont have to scout in a nano, just enter system and soom from gate. Then scury around looking for solo kills or other nano-gangs, avoiding any kind of conventional defense fleet because you're pathetic against it.
So, teh nano-gang just sits at 100km flying or moves on, unless the defense gang brings their own nano's or huginns. At that point its most often then not a chase, cause who wants a real fight in a nano.
OH DAMN!! You mean you need similarly skilled pilots and ships to counter the same type of ship???
OH GOD, no not that!! Why can't I easily kill your 6 Billions isk setup in my 100m isk BS, WWWHHHHYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!
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Clone 231D
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:35:00 -
[1985]
I think this is a good first step in balancing out the game. I think there are some inaccuracies though.
First being the requirement to fit MWDs. This is there because of bubbles, plain and simple. No MWD = dead because of bubbles. Work on this if you want to see MWDs no longer being required.
Second, blobs. You made travel easy... way way too easy. This is why you have super-blobs and gigantic power-blocs taking up all of 0.0. IF 200 members can assember from across 3 regions in less than an hour, you just shrank eve. Fix this if you want to fix blobs. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:36:00 -
[1986]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Archetype02 nano ships compensate by lower dps compared to any tanking ship of the same value.. if you fit a propper tank no nano can solo your bs, but with your uber fitting and player experience i find this highly unlikely.
The first step is to let go of "nanos this nanos that". Nano ships are a fit that we as players use. It has become THE ONLY FIT almost and exclusively. Try something other than the vaga or ishtar. If you can't then you should be thinking to yourself, "wow, if these are the only ships I'm willing to use because the rest just aren't as good, maybe there is a problem". See?
Or maybe they are popular ships because they require a high amount of SP and skill to fly well. Ever think of that?
And I don't know what game you play, but hacs are hardly "THE ONLY FIT". Not to mention the large number of people flying these ships because they "think" they ar an I win button, and then mess up and die easily because they find the ship is anything but that.
Skill to orbit at 100km and only approach gates at warp? Yea right. You dont have to scout in a nano, just enter system and soom from gate. Then scury around looking for solo kills or other nano-gangs, avoiding any kind of conventional defense fleet because you're pathetic against it.
So, teh nano-gang just sits at 100km flying or moves on, unless the defense gang brings their own nano's or huginns. At that point its most often then not a chase, cause who wants a real fight in a nano.
You have no clue BUT after the nerf we will a roaming gang enter hostile space the space holders jump bridge a blob to the choke point, bubble the crap out of the gate and wait until the gang leaves and a total **** ensues.
Welcome to the new eve.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Clone 231D
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:39:00 -
[1987]
Originally by: Archetype02 Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 17:37:18
Originally by: Clone 231D I think this is a good first step in balancing out the game. I think there are some inaccuracies though.
First being the requirement to fit MWDs. This is there because of bubbles, plain and simple. No MWD = dead because of bubbles. Work on this if you want to see MWDs no longer being required.
Second, blobs. You made travel easy... way way too easy. This is why you have super-blobs and gigantic power-blocs taking up all of 0.0. IF 200 members can assember from across 3 regions in less than an hour, you just shrank eve. Fix this if you want to fix blobs.
Clone 231D 5 month old npc corp..
Thanks for proving me right. I mean I must be if the very best you can say in return is to look up an alt's age right... right? |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:40:00 -
[1988]
Originally by: Barasu no shit and you don't fly ships that can be killed. This is basically 2 mwds all over again
Just for your information, I fly a claymore without snakes. It goes 4.7k/sec before overload, and it still takes damage from cruise when orbiting on mwd. It has a 40km scramble range, and yet it still can't orbit within that 40km at maximum speed, so yes, it takes damage from missles, and it's big enough that a sniper can hit it with full transversal from under 100km.
I've had this same claymore since march last year, and I've flown it almost exclusively for the last 6-8 months, and it is yet to pass half structure.
That is not to say people haven't tried to kill it, it's just that 99% of the time when I've been engaged it's been by a moron who has no idea about transversal, speed, inertia or webs in general and I've managed to get away by not being utterly ******ed. Yes, it's relatively fast for a command ship, but it still BY FAR the slowest ship in a nanogang (which, lets be fair, skirmish mods really are aimed at supporting).
It's not the speed or the ship setups that makes people believe that nanogangs are unkillable, it's because the people who field them are not complete and utter morons (in general) like the people they fight who feel the need to whinge about supposed unkillable setups.
All it takes is a bit of common sense to make your fleet almost impossible to hurt with a nanogang, and yet people are too lazy to even think about it.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:43:00 -
[1989]
Originally by: Kalvin Braunberg
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
That's the hard part you dipshit. Ofc its easy to kill someting with 60% of its structure gone to modules. Its actualyl catching the things with nos and webs that's the problem.
Contrary to what CCP seem to think in this blog. T2 fit Inties are very good at running down nano-hacs. 90% of hacs are NOT fitting HG-snakes and T2 Rigs, and the ones that are, can still be caught by a similarly expensive and skilled inty.
And what will be happen this patch ? I say it. The simple crow will be destroy a Huginn or Rapier. Why i'm saying it this ? If the Matar recon useing 2piece 50% web cant will be slowing the ceptors. They will be flying 7-8k/s. 2 web not enough they will be slow just 2k/s. They will be orbiting you at 9km range and u cant hit them with arty and u will to die slowly. Thats will be realistic. LOL
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Krytie
Minmatar Dynatos Intergalactic
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:43:00 -
[1990]
ok, we have people on both sides of the fence either truly loving this or truly hating this. the dev blog said....... "We are fully aware that such complex changes can have unforeseen results... yada yada yada..... give them a spin and spare us no feedback or thoughts on these issues. We're ... yada yada yada... because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions."
Now, in many posts, people are running around claiming the world will end for half and be glorious and sunny for the rest. If you READ the above statement... they want players to actually TRY this and GIVE SUGGESTIONS..... Before yelling and screaming, how about.... ummm.... TRY THIS OUT FIRST..... Then give your critisism without the whining. They did not say that this was all written in stone yet...
I am minmatar myself and will look at these closely. But, I am not going to flail my arms in the air and run around stamping my feet and crying just yet like a 10 year old. It is only on test machines not uploaded into your mind just yet. |
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:43:00 -
[1991]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 17:44:34
Originally by: Clone 231D
Thanks for proving me right. I mean I must be if the very best you can say in return is to look up an alt's age right... right?
Hiding a larger carebear behind a newer one is always a good tactic.
i see the carebears are already addpting
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:44:00 -
[1992]
Originally by: Susitna
I keep seeing this reposted and reposted. I could not disagree more with this statement. To me it reads - newbs should not be able to play this game with those that have T-2 ships and played long enough to fit for speed.
It doesnt take long to get into a rapier or an inty, you dont even need t2 guns. Few months
Originally by: Clone 231D
Thanks for proving me right. I mean I must be if the very best you can say in return is to look up an alt's age right... right?
The point is you are a nobody, no one knows who you are, has seen you PvP, so why should we believe you when you say you know what you are talkign about, why should we trust your decision on the progress of this game, because quite frankly you are wrong and have nothing to back it up. _______________
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Barasu
Minmatar Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:45:00 -
[1993]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Barasu no shit and you don't fly ships that can be killed. This is basically 2 mwds all over again
Just for your information, I fly a claymore without snakes. It goes 4.7k/sec before overload, and it still takes damage from cruise when orbiting on mwd. It has a 40km scramble range, and yet it still can't orbit within that 40km at maximum speed, so yes, it takes damage from missles, and it's big enough that a sniper can hit it with full transversal from under 100km.
I've had this same claymore since march last year, and I've flown it almost exclusively for the last 6-8 months, and it is yet to pass half structure.
That is not to say people haven't tried to kill it, it's just that 99% of the time when I've been engaged it's been by a moron who has no idea about transversal, speed, inertia or webs in general and I've managed to get away by not being utterly ******ed. Yes, it's relatively fast for a command ship, but it still BY FAR the slowest ship in a nanogang (which, lets be fair, skirmish mods really are aimed at supporting).
It's not the speed or the ship setups that makes people believe that nanogangs are unkillable, it's because the people who field them are not complete and utter morons (in general) like the people they fight who feel the need to whinge about supposed unkillable setups.
All it takes is a bit of common sense to make your fleet almost impossible to hurt with a nanogang, and yet people are too lazy to even think about it.
I moved away from 00 because of the reason its eaither blobbing or nano ships. I know they are killable but the resources to do it are just not worth it. No fights will ever happen with you guys if the odds are not in your favor. You guys just live to gank. its sad that your powerhouse is comming to a end but now its time for you to discover some new fitting.
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Destructor1792
Minmatar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:46:00 -
[1994]
So much for Eve being a mature game I've never read so much cr*p before!!
Right, back on track.. Speed nerf eh? You whiners have been busy ain't ya What next - BS are overpowered, they can kill my AB cruiser now.. nerf BS please the word "MUPPETS" springs to mind.
As stated so many times before, nano is not a case of click & orbit.. takes skill, patience, lots of mistakes & lots of lost ships to get it right. Speed tanking "was" a viable form of PvP yet obviously not anymore! That's one whole Race wiped out in a 5hr brainstorm from so called Devs Impressive
I'm starting to seriously believe this game has just about ran its course & feel sorry for all those who have dedicated all that time to specifically fly nano 'style'
Now imho i can only blame one group for the current state of things & that's the DEVS.. why ? Each race was originally unique, each specialising in a certain aspect of combat. Not anymore.. it's all a big blurry mess with no clear lines anymore.
Ah well, time for a beer or 2 and take a look at JGE like so many others......
. ______________________________________
Bringing The Fun Back
I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak. |
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:59:00 -
[1995]
Originally by: Clone 231D
so, if joe schmoe says 2+2=4 who gives a crap because he is a nobody right? You fall into the same catagory as your buddy, you cannot dispute the arguement, so you attack the person. It doesn't amtter who my main is, I could be a famous pirate for all you know. Doesn't change the words I have written.
If you were anyone of any fame or worth in this community, you would post with your main and when you say something people would listen, yet you choose to post on an alt.
I don't need to dispute any arguement because you don't have one. _______________
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gtcsellalt
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Posted - 2008.07.26 17:59:00 -
[1996]
Edited by: gtcsellalt on 26/07/2008 17:59:11
Originally by: Theodox Gotan the tears of nano'ers are delicious.
nom nom nom nom nom ... time for a tear milkshake
oh my god, you mean .... nano gangs are actually going to have to RISK somthing now?!
lol still fitting stabs/cloak on carrier?
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:00:00 -
[1997]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Destructor1792 So much for Eve being a mature game I've never read so much cr*p before!!
It was once much more intelligent and respectable, here and in-game.
Yay for more subscribers \o/ .
i know what you mean i feel like it's just you and me that understand these changes are for the best. but how do we get the point across to Pandemic and Tri?
These changes suck on the whole.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:00:00 -
[1998]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Destructor1792 So much for Eve being a mature game I've never read so much cr*p before!!
It was once much more intelligent and respectable, here and in-game.
Yay for more subscribers \o/ .
i know what you mean i feel like it's just you and me that understand these changes are for the best. but how do we get the point across to Pandemic and Tri?
10 out of 10 for missing the point...
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Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:01:00 -
[1999]
Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
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Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:01:00 -
[2000]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Barasu I moved away from 00 because of the reason its eaither blobbing or nano ships. I know they are killable but the resources to do it are just not worth it. No fights will ever happen with you guys if the odds are not in your favor. You guys just live to gank. its sad that your powerhouse is comming to a end but now its time for you to discover some new fitting.
What powerhouse? PL is 600 people, hardly a powerhouse by any definition of the term.
We roam to kill stuff, we gank ratters to get people riled up to fight us, and we get our fights. You're welcome to believe what you want to but if you think that a nano nerf is going to stop or hell, even slow down alliances like PL and TRI you're sorely mistaken and it was probably a good choice to move out of 0.0 since you're obviously not up to the task
Guess were going to see how good PL really are now then arent we. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
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Clone 231D
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:02:00 -
[2001]
Edited by: Clone 231D on 26/07/2008 18:02:29
Originally by: Archetype02
Originally by: Clone 231D
so, if joe schmoe says 2+2=4 who gives a crap because he is a nobody right? You fall into the same catagory as your buddy, you cannot dispute the arguement, so you attack the person. It doesn't amtter who my main is, I could be a famous pirate for all you know. Doesn't change the words I have written.
what catagory do you falll under ? "epic fail".. Why post with an alt with something that concerns half of eve's PVP player base... if u want to make a valid point prove you have the experience to back up YOUR arguements.. otherwise u can take your rant to COAD where im sure the mods will apreciate you not using a corptag
Ok, obviously this is going to go nowhere with you as a person's corp ticker/alliance is the only thing that matters to you. Basically you are just being prejudice. Its like seeing a black person and thinking "He is probably doing drugs and gang banging." Sure its not the same degree, but that is merely semantics.
In a debate all opinions matter, lest we skip over anyone of anything but royal lineage. I guess we could do that, then we should say good-bye to the Teslas and the Einstiens of the world, as they are just NOOBs.
Unless you have something to say about what I brought up, do everyone a favor and stop talking.
EDIT: Dez, posting with an alt in unison to yourself doesn't make it anymore relevant. |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:02:00 -
[2002]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil These changes suck on the whole.
well yes, if it's changed or not changed how triumvirate and pandemic legion want it to then yes, i agree it would suck. but not how ccp is planning to balance it, wouldnt you agree?
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Barasu
Minmatar Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:02:00 -
[2003]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Barasu I moved away from 00 because of the reason its eaither blobbing or nano ships. I know they are killable but the resources to do it are just not worth it. No fights will ever happen with you guys if the odds are not in your favor. You guys just live to gank. its sad that your powerhouse is comming to a end but now its time for you to discover some new fitting.
What powerhouse? PL is 600 people, hardly a powerhouse by any definition of the term.
We roam to kill stuff, we gank ratters to get people riled up to fight us, and we get our fights. You're welcome to believe what you want to but if you think that a nano nerf is going to stop or hell, even slow down alliances like PL and TRI you're sorely mistaken and it was probably a good choice to move out of 0.0 since you're obviously not up to the task
Guess were going to see how good PL really are now then aren't we.
Not really they are going to quit and realize 1 week later they have no life and come back to whine their ships are going to have to actually fit a ship.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:02:00 -
[2004]
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
----------------- Friends Forever |
Spacetrekka
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:03:00 -
[2005]
Edited by: Spacetrekka on 26/07/2008 18:12:53 Well, it is good to see speed tanking is getting "rebalanced", as a ship that cannot be hit by drones, guns, or missiles is a tad rediculous or "ludicrous".
On the other hand, the current set of nerfs seems to be harming the small gang tactic more than ludicrous speed ships. What about the blob gangs that are roaming space both in 0.0 and factional warfare? What is going to be done about them? Small gang and solo pvp seems to be completely ignored in favor of bigger and bigger fleets. Look at factional warfare in general, as all it seems to be is one blob gang hitting another, with the larger gang always winning. Personally, I find that to be incredibly annoying and redundant.
In summary, if you want to nerf ludicrous speed, fine, but give small gangs a way to stand up to the blob gangs that are conquering any and all means of fighting in PVP.
Oh and I almost forgot, bombs deployed from smartbombers are no solution to the blob problem, as they cost too much to be readily used.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:03:00 -
[2006]
Originally by: Silevran Levanadel
Quote: Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Even though tis line was the first in the blog, and highlighted in yellow, it could seem that many people overlooked it. felt it was worth to direct peoples attention to it.
They stated that it was a brainstorm, an idea, a proposed change. But if you think its a bad move (and i have absolutely no idea of pvp) then go to the test server and show them how bad the changes are.
/rant off
Sorry about that, but the blog is barely out before a (at the moment of writing) 78 page long thread has sprung up, with whines and whatnot. Guess it just kinda ticked me off.
I'd love it if CCP actually took notice of legitimate qualms people bring up on the test server (aside from "bug reports" which have no place here), but they really don't. Sisi isn't the place to test such a blanket of changes, infact there is NOWHERE this can be tested properly aside from making it live on TQ, at which point it is very doubtful that it would ever be reverted.
Most people voicing their distaste at the blog are doing so WHILE KNOWING it's only a "proposed change", but while having experience of some of CCP's other "proposed changes" in the past where no amount of (constructive) feedback on Sisi did anything to stop changes being implemented.
I'm going to put it in the simplest way possible why implementing the ideas laid out in this blog is a bad idea:
MAKING SO MANY CHANGES TO SUCH A COMPLEX GAME IN ONE GO IS UNPREDICTABLE AT BEST AND COULD HAVE TOTALLY UNFORSEEN, GAME BREAKING CONSEQUENCES IN THE LONG RUN. "SISI" IS NOT A SUITABLE WAY (NUMBERS + 'NATURAL' PVP WISE) TO TEST THIS. SHOTGUN NERFS ARE NOT THE ANSWER WHERE KEYHOLE SURGERY IS REQUIRED.
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:03:00 -
[2007]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Day 2
So, on one of the earlier pages in this thread, one of the devs labeled most of these reactions you see here as "knee-jerk" - I partially agree, the concentration of alt posts has gone way up, while grammar and reason are way down.
However, after sleeping on it, I find myself still against this nerf. While I intend on testing it on SISI when deployed, unlike a decent number of people in this thread I have both a brain and 0.0 combat experience, and can think through what's probably going to happen with these changes.
- Guerilla warfare will be hurt badly, with only the Vagabond and interceptors (and potentially some AFs) continuing to be viable for combat. Its ironic in that many posts against nanos on GD, people complained about having to train for the Minmatar to play this style of combat or counter it - today, we have all races' cruisers represented for better or worse in nanowarfare. What about tomorrow? Back to Vagas only, and its going to be far more difficult to pull off successfully.
- The Arazu & Lachesis are going to become overpowered, with an ability to not only 2 point a target from 18km or so away, but also disable its MWD and slow it down as if webbing it. I wouldn't be so vehemently opposed to it if it wasn't all wrapped up in a single module, while the Rapiers and Huginns of today can do something similiar while webbing from farther out, they have to use two midslots to do it, not one. What's likely going to happen is that the Arazu and Lachesis will become standards in any 'roaming' gang, up there with interdictors as necessary for success.
- Testing on SISI is not the real thing. Angel's been going on about this, and she's right, how are you going to replicate what we face in 0.0 or even lowsec on a daily basis? Roaming around in a now-nerfed nanogang, and attacking a group of BSes only to get 10 carriers dropped on your head? SISI's good for testing 1v1 setups, and just general fun while beating each other over the head, but not for accurate simulations. To even have a halfass chance at testing this properly, you're going to have to get people who know what they're doing into gangs with good FCs, and send them against the standard 0.0 rabble defense. Short of getting a corporation to volunteer for, good luck.
- RR BS will probably be the best tactic out there post-patch. Not only does RRing someone not aggro them, allowing work to be done easily on stations and gates, several of the better ships suited for it have weapons that won't be as easily screwed over by the 7.5km scrams: the Dominix is a beast here, with the Geddon, Tempest, Raven, and Scorpion also being options. Hell, even a T2 blasterthron, courtesy of Null L, can work here; not only that, but logistics are also an option.
- ECM is going to be extremely overpowered. Its major defense today was range, and only partially effective as a nanogang could run it down - now? Vagas are easy to jam, and inties like
AGREED!
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:04:00 -
[2008]
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:04:00 -
[2009]
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
Obvious troll is more obvious than normal.
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Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:06:00 -
[2010]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
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Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:06:00 -
[2011]
Originally by: Barasu
I moved away from 00 because of the reason its eaither blobbing or nano ships. I know they are killable but the resources to do it are just not worth it. No fights will ever happen with you guys if the odds are not in your favor. You guys just live to gank. its sad that your powerhouse is comming to a end but now its time for you to discover some new fitting.
and because you think it's not worth it (to counter nano gangs) means CCP should nerf it? you are very coherent in your statements.
Because some people fly ships in a way you don't like them to fly (because it's hard to kill them) the GAME ITSELF should be changed to match your criteria of how the game should be played, "CCP please Let's change the game so i can win!"
it is easier to counter nano gangs than u think, the tools are there but you lack the will or the skill to do it...
next thing you know, you'll be asking to nerf officer mods so that titans can die faster.
this might sound arrogant but i don't mean it that way at all but i gotta say it: not everyone is skilled enough as a pilot to be able to fly above 15km/s in nano gangs OR not, it's much harder to do that than the easy mode of regular fleet combat that you're so used to. there are so many variables you need to account for (lag, cloaked rapiers, neuts, ecm, etc), flying those speeds you cannot afford mistakes.
I keep saying, there are some ships that should not be flying their current speeds (claymore and sleipnir for instance), as long as the "rebalance" makes what is supposed to be fast still fast and what is supposed to be slow to make it slow, make it as it's supposed to be.
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
Theodox Gotan
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:06:00 -
[2012]
Originally by: Archetype02
Originally by: Matrix Skye i already said i know it's hard for pandemic legion, dood i understand your anguish. but seriously, calling carebears whiners and little girls isn't cool . i'm telling you i understand. us carebears go through changes all the time. we just have to learn to adapt man. be cool.
wait.. your last adaptation was missions getting harder OH THE HORROR!!! THE PAIN !!
we are losing a viable option in pvp because you A. cant be arsed to fit against us. B. Fail to fit against us. C. Rant on forums about A.& B.
nom nom nom nom your tears are delicious.
|
Boz Well
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:07:00 -
[2013]
Originally by: Silevran Levanadel
Quote: Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Even though tis line was the first in the blog, and highlighted in yellow, it could seem that many people overlooked it. felt it was worth to direct peoples attention to it.
They stated that it was a brainstorm, an idea, a proposed change. But if you think its a bad move (and i have absolutely no idea of pvp) then go to the test server and show them how bad the changes are.
/rant off
Sorry about that, but the blog is barely out before a (at the moment of writing) 78 page long thread has sprung up, with whines and whatnot. Guess it just kinda ticked me off.
Typically language such as 'subject to change' is just boilerplate language and is them CYA'ing. Of course it's subject to change, if they find on the test server (okay for 1v1, but far from a good simulation of what it will actually DO to the game) something is absolutely trashy, they'll change it. But they wouldn't have posted a list if it was just a 'brainstorm'. These changes are going in MONDAY, that's in two days. If this was only a brainstorm, the code wouldn't be changed already eh?
And a 78 page long thread is expected and justified imo. People have spent billions on these ships, months and years training for them, and are having the rug pulled out by a list of nerfs that's as subtle as a sledgehammer. Maybe if CCP put more than 5 hours of thought into this, maybe if they implemented only a few changes at a time (rather than EVERYTHING they came up with), maybe if they justified it by anything but a loltastic vagabond setup (with no special named mods mind you), maybe then people wouldn't be a little frustrated/disappointed with them and this thread wouldn't be nearing 80 pages after a day, heh.
I'm off topic so I'll stop, but anyways, don't put too much faith in boilerplate language like 'subject to change'. They own the game, and they can do what they want with these changes. Battleships are 'subject to change', and they could remove them tomorrow if they wanted to. That doesn't make it likely, and neither does that language in the OP.
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Balcura
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:09:00 -
[2014]
Figured I would chime in now that were way into it. Of the 78 pages I've read about 30 of them and just smile. Remember a Time... When you could fit and activate (at the same time) 2 MWD's... the game figuted you were going too fast then, just like now.
When armor and Shield hardners suffered no stacking penalities (Scorpian Tank stands out)
When Damage mods suffered no stacking penalities (Pulse GANK Geddon anyone)
NOS could drain an enemies cap and power your duel tank (NOS Domi's)
Carriers could load Inty 5's into cargo bay full of crap (each carring 50km3 in the cargo hold)
Cruise missile launchers on a frigate class ship
Introduction of capitals and POS seiges (supercaps too)
Lastly: Remember when there was no tech 2 modules...
With all the changes in the game that were considered "game breaking" all they managed to do was change combat and PvP. You all have fallen into the flavor of the month, skill for months and bought the best crap just to have it all changes (BTW I'm pist about my skirmish warfare links being nerfed) but still the end result is that PvP will changes again and you guys will still be able to find many ways to kill people.
I do agree that the entire game has changed over and over and this one is going to be problematic to deal with as having titans/mom's/carriers dropped on your head is all too common now there will be the "new" best thing.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:09:00 -
[2015]
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
ummm what do you mean? i dont think calling pandemic and tri names is going to help, we HAVE to try and help them adapt! not insult them you see my point?
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Theodox Gotan
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:09:00 -
[2016]
Edited by: Theodox Gotan on 26/07/2008 18:10:30
Originally by: gtcsellalt Edited by: gtcsellalt on 26/07/2008 17:59:11
Originally by: Theodox Gotan the tears of nano'ers are delicious.
nom nom nom nom nom ... time for a tear milkshake
oh my god, you mean .... nano gangs are actually going to have to RISK somthing now?!
lol still fitting stabs/cloak on carrier?
you lost me ... please elaborate :)
p.s. your tears are the best of all.
|
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:10:00 -
[2017]
Edited by: Commander Tigre on 26/07/2008 18:14:33
Originally by: Spacetrekka Well, it is good to see speed tanking is getting "rebalanced", as a ship that cannot be hit by drones, guns, or missiles is a tad rediculous or "ludicrous". ...
Everyone who whines about their drones not catching a ceptor or missiles not traveling fast enough is not fitting for it. It is easy to build a ship with drones that travel over 10km/s and target out to 200 km. Also, all you missile spammers whine that your missiles cant travel fast enough to hit. TRY PRECISION MISSILES, they work wonders on those fast moving ships. Not to mention adding rigs to increase your missile speed. This game really is full of people who want to do everything with a single ship and be good at it. EVERY SHIP has a role, figure out what it is and play it. Dont whine when you fit for a tank and cant hit fast targets and be fast yourself.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:10:00 -
[2018]
Originally by: Theodox Gotan
Originally by: Archetype02
Originally by: Matrix Skye i already said i know it's hard for pandemic legion, dood i understand your anguish. but seriously, calling carebears whiners and little girls isn't cool . i'm telling you i understand. us carebears go through changes all the time. we just have to learn to adapt man. be cool.
wait.. your last adaptation was missions getting harder OH THE HORROR!!! THE PAIN !!
we are losing a viable option in pvp because you A. cant be arsed to fit against us. B. Fail to fit against us. C. Rant on forums about A.& B.
nom nom nom nom your tears are delicious.
At least we're trying to be constructive you idiot.
Click me! You know you want to... |
SK Rooster
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:10:00 -
[2019]
Originally by: Korinn I fly a claymore. It goes 4.7k/sec before overload.
That is not to say people haven't tried to kill it, it's just that 99% of the time when I've been engaged it's been by a moron who has no idea about transversal, speed, inertia or webs in general and I've managed to get away by not being utterly ******ed.
It's not the speed or the ship setups that makes people believe that nanogangs are unkillable, the people they fight who feel the need to whinge about supposed unkillable setups.
All it takes is a bit of common sense to make your fleet almost impossible to hurt with a nanogang, and yet people are too lazy to even think about it.
ok, since you are such genius, explain how i am suppose to kill a command ship that goes 4.7km/s with a traditional gang (read not nano).
Originally by: Korinn
All it takes is a bit of common sense to make your fleet almost impossible to hurt with a nanogang, and yet people are too lazy to even think about it.
maybe people whine because they dont want to be able to just survive a nanogang, but, oh, i dont know, actually kill one of the nanoships???
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:12:00 -
[2020]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
ummm what do you mean? i dont think calling pandemic and tri names is going to help, we HAVE to try and help them adapt! not insult them you see my point?
How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
|
SK Rooster
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:13:00 -
[2021]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
ummm what do you mean? i dont think calling pandemic and tri names is going to help, we HAVE to try and help them adapt! not insult them you see my point?
How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
someone call the whaaaaambulance
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Barasu
Minmatar Earned In Blood
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:14:00 -
[2022]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
ummm what do you mean? i dont think calling pandemic and tri names is going to help, we HAVE to try and help them adapt! not insult them you see my point?
How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
Lighten up Sophi! I hope they do something, probably modify this but Nanowh|orage needs to end!
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:14:00 -
[2023]
Originally by: SK Rooster
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dray 10 out of 10 for missing the point...
i know i was thinking the same thing. but i don't think pandemic and tri get it. hehe, let's not tell them yet though. theyre good people sersiously though.
I meant you tbh....
ummm what do you mean? i dont think calling pandemic and tri names is going to help, we HAVE to try and help them adapt! not insult them you see my point?
How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
someone call the whaaaaambulance
Your corporation appears to be a shining beacon of intelligence and reason.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:15:00 -
[2024]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
i know i know. its just that all these other guys (from pandemic and tri) think that nanos aren't overpowered and i get frustrated telling them to see things like you and me. but they just dont get it through their thick heads. it seems only us smart ones can see through the doom and gloom . have you tried explaining it to them? they don't listen!
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:17:00 -
[2025]
To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:20:00 -
[2026]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
The quick answer is yes, and it is to fill the roles needed to combat specific gangs. If you cannot believe this, well have fun throwing money at CCP.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:20:00 -
[2027]
Edited by: Korinn on 26/07/2008 18:21:21
Originally by: SK Rooster
ok, since you are such genius, explain how i am suppose to kill a command ship that goes 4.7km/s with a traditional gang (read not nano).
maybe people whine because they dont want to be able to just survive a nanogang, but, oh, i dont know, actually kill one of the nanoships???
Ok... it's a fat and slow claymore... it can't web from outside 19km, it has a limited cargo hold (8 cap 800's) and no real active tank... you get this thing called a rapier or a huginn, you web the thing, and you kill it with guns or missiles. If i notice the huginn / rapier fast enough, I'll hit overload and try to get out of range of whatever you have trying to kill me. It's pretty simple really.
My claymore is setup specifically so I can tackle way out of heavy neut range (and I spent a significant amount of money making it so), but 40km is still well within minmatar recon web range and its not that hard to stop something like a claymore dead in its tracks if you're an acceptable recon pilot.
I'm not saying the claymore (or any nano ship) isn't hard to kill (that is the whole idea when fighting people who outnumber you 2+:1), but there are a shedload of options for you to take, even with a non nano gang which allows you the ability to catch and kill nano gangs.
Hey when nanos are ****ing about 100km away from your fleet, why not have a prober run a probe and warp your entire fleet to the result instantly, you might catch something.
Then again, you might only warp half your fleet while the other half get bubbled, your guys who warped out get killed without support and you proceed to whinge that nanos are invincible.
This is how PVP works; in this case, the nano gang outsmarted you by bubbling half your fleet as you didn't have everyone aligned and you paid dearly for your mistake
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:20:00 -
[2028]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean How often do you need to be called a total ****** before you realise that aside from a few bitter mission runners and game trolls that nobody either likes you or thinks this is a good idea.
i know i know. its just that all these other guys (from pandemic and tri) think that nanos aren't overpowered and i get frustrated telling them to see things like you and me. but they just dont get it through their thick heads. it seems only us smart ones can see through the doom and gloom . have you tried explaining it to them? they don't listen!
They are right its ppl like you who are unwilling to learn piloting skills that are reducing the game and its content.
Here is a way for the morons who want eve to be perfectly "BALANCED" as thats the word they like to use.
Remove every ship apart from one from the game give it a single available fit and also give everybody perfect skills in it.
There perfect "BALANCE".
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:24:00 -
[2029]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
Hey man we not speaking for frigates. T2 ships and BS go to crap. Blaster ships go to crap for this patch. Matar ships go to crap. (Hyena,Huginn,Rapier,Vagabond and Tempest worster BS in the game)
Allright i see, u will flying with Drake and u will be use missile spam and F1-F8 or u wanna kill with a crow a Huginn or Rapier.
|
Clone 231D
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:25:00 -
[2030]
Well I guess one final post won't hurt.
Hopefully if and when this balancing goes thru, it will become plainly obvious which pilots/alliances are all they say they are.
Reminds me of when remote DDDs got nerfed. Sure, BoB is pretty badass, but they weren't that badass (taking regions like candy from a baby.) |
|
Daelan Lok'errt
SoT
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:25:00 -
[2031]
and no replys from CCP representatives for a long time now... I do hope that when one of them posts next it will be something along the lines of "Gee wiz, guys, you didn't really believe that stupid bullshit, did you?"
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:26:00 -
[2032]
Originally by: Clone 231D Well I guess one final post won't hurt.
Hopefully if and when this balancing goes thru, it will become plainly obvious which pilots/alliances are all they say they are.
Reminds me of when remote DDDs got nerfed. Sure, BoB is pretty badass, but they weren't that badass (taking regions like candy from a baby.)
yea its not like 3--40 thousand players attacked them all at the same time and yet still failed to destroy them...............
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:27:00 -
[2033]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean They are right its ppl like you who are unwilling to learn piloting skills that are reducing the game and its content.
Here is a way for the morons who want eve to be perfectly "BALANCED" as thats the word they like to use.
Remove every ship apart from one from the game give it a single available fit and also give everybody perfect skills in it.
There perfect "BALANCE".
I was thinking more along the lines of CCP actually fixing the imbalances such as nanos and letting the tards from Pandemic and Tri die off, since obviously they cannot live without hugging nanos .
Just quit and move on already. I have enough tears from you alone to power my satisfaction that you suck at Eve. Bye bye.
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Spacetrekka
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:28:00 -
[2034]
Originally by: Commander Tigre Edited by: Commander Tigre on 26/07/2008 18:14:33
Originally by: Spacetrekka Well, it is good to see speed tanking is getting "rebalanced", as a ship that cannot be hit by drones, guns, or missiles is a tad rediculous or "ludicrous". ...
Everyone who whines about their drones not catching a ceptor or missiles not traveling fast enough is not fitting for it. It is easy to build a ship with drones that travel over 10km/s and target out to 200 km. Also, all you missile spammers whine that your missiles cant travel fast enough to hit. TRY PRECISION MISSILES, they work wonders on those fast moving ships. Not to mention adding rigs to increase your missile speed. This game really is full of people who want to do everything with a single ship and be good at it. EVERY SHIP has a role, figure out what it is and play it. Dont whine when you fit for a tank and cant hit fast targets and be fast yourself.
You make an excellent point, as such ships can be fitted. When one pvps, should they be limited to only being able to counter one tactic? Solution is to get another person to counter the other tactic. This line of thinking leads to the creation of blob gangs, which I have more of a problem with than ludicrous speed ships.
I am just trying to make the point that these changes are quite radical and will have bigger consequences than simply nerfing nano ships, like creating bigger blobs that will kill any aspect of small gang/solo pvp.
|
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:28:00 -
[2035]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
Frigates and Hurricanes would be the only thing I'd bring out for a nanogang. As for a roaming gang, the last time we did them regularly sans nano was in Geminate over the winter holiday.
If we came close to 9P4, K25, BWF, anyplace like that, we almost always got blobbed by a mixed nano/heavy fleet of theirs that outnumbered us about 30:10. Most of the time, we usually had to retreat and lose about 10-20% of our forces that we couldn't get unstuck from their tacklers - we had a few good wins, but most of the time we couldn't stick around and had to haul ass for home. Got cut off by jumpbridges a few times, lost some scouts in the process, the works - so, I hope you can see why I'm more of a fan of nano than not.
It allows you to compete with their blob on a better footing - if they blob up to try and win, rather than through skill, you just shrug and head out. It makes them earn their kills, rather than just showing up and pressing F1-F8. If we hadn't been as good as we are, there are situations where we'd have been totally wiped out, rather than just taking a few losses...
Click me! You know you want to... |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:28:00 -
[2036]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 18:29:41
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean They are right its ppl like you who are unwilling to learn piloting skills that are reducing the game and its content.
Here is a way for the morons who want eve to be perfectly "BALANCED" as thats the word they like to use.
Remove every ship apart from one from the game give it a single available fit and also give everybody perfect skills in it.
There perfect "BALANCE".
I was thinking more along the lines of CCP actually fixing the imbalances such as nanos and letting the tards from Pandemic and Tri die off, since obviously they cannot live without hugging nanos .
Just quit and move on already. I have enough tears from you alone to power my satisfaction that you suck at Eve. Bye bye.
Isnt it odd the these imbalances that you claim need fixing also happen to boost ships and crappy tactics that useless tards like you fly..........
PS: Around 500 kills in the last month none in a nano ship fyi.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:31:00 -
[2037]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
inty's, because of scan res, 1 or 2 are always welcome, any moar than that and your just wasting my time as an FC
BCs: Claymores are great not just for gangs but for bumping and damage. Harbringers are serious damage dealers and Canes can work well with the speed fits. So yes
Nano is for quick align and dictating combat not uber total pwnage. Its only uber because the ships/skillz required are generaly relegated to the higher SP moar experienced pilots. If you bring crap to fight a nano gang, you will end up in the toilet. thats not bad game mechanics thats just failures trying to think they can win every fight.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:32:00 -
[2038]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Isnt it odd the these imbalances that you claim need fixing also happen to boost ships and crappy tactics that useless tards like you fly..........
"OH NOE4S! ITS NOT MY FAULT IDIOTS USE OTHER SHIPS THAT ARENT OVERPOWERED"
Go read a book or two. It should improve your IQ. Cant help you with your crappy 3-you-old tantrums though. You'll need to go back to mom for that, Mr. Bean.
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:33:00 -
[2039]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
T1 frigates? No, no damage, not much speed, no tank, waste of a player. Inties? Sure always need a fast locker Elec Frigs? Again sure.
BCs? Well being the slow guy is going to get you killed by the big 50 man blob when your 10 man gang has to leave but if you are in a faster ship like a hurricane or if you play smart as a BC then yeah you can bring one.
BSs? Definitly not on a nano gang, don't bring ships that don't work well together, BSs support good with other BSs but without a load of other BS, the 1 BS is useless, it's just going to slow the gangs movement and get a titan dropped on you. I wish I was joking but people will cyno a titan for 1 bs.
Originally by: Matrix Skye
I was thinking more along the lines of CCP actually fixing the imbalances such as nanos and letting the tards from Pandemic and Tri die off, since obviously they cannot live without hugging nanos .
Just quit and move on already. I have enough tears from you alone to power my satisfaction that you suck at Eve. Bye bye.
Go back under your bridge. _______________
|
Dran Black
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:33:00 -
[2040]
ok yeah nerf nanos but nerf 300 man bs blobs while your at it. How can you counter that?
|
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Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:34:00 -
[2041]
CAST YOUR VOTES FOR OR AGAINST THIS NANO NERF NOW:
Vote for it HERE.
Vote against it HERE.
.: A Vagabond's Requiem (Blog) :.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:34:00 -
[2042]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Isnt it odd the these imbalances that you claim need fixing also happen to boost ships and crappy tactics that useless tards like you fly..........
"OH NOE4S! ITS NOT MY FAULT IDIOTS USE OTHER SHIPS THAT ARENT OVERPOWERED"
Go read a book or two. It should improve your IQ. Cant help you with your crappy 3-you-old tantrums though. You'll need to go back to mom for that, Mr. Bean.
NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:36:00 -
[2043]
Originally by: Korinn
MAKING SO MANY CHANGES TO SUCH A COMPLEX GAME IN ONE GO IS UNPREDICTABLE AT BEST AND COULD HAVE TOTALLY UNFORSEEN, GAME BREAKING CONSEQUENCES IN THE LONG RUN. "SISI" IS NOT A SUITABLE WAY (NUMBERS + 'NATURAL' PVP WISE) TO TEST THIS. SHOTGUN NERFS ARE NOT THE ANSWER WHERE KEYHOLE SURGERY IS REQUIRED.
QFT
|
Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:38:00 -
[2044]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:39:00 -
[2045]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Isnt it odd the these imbalances that you claim need fixing also happen to boost ships and crappy tactics that useless tards like you fly..........
"OH NOE4S! ITS NOT MY FAULT IDIOTS USE OTHER SHIPS THAT ARENT OVERPOWERED"
Go read a book or two. It should improve your IQ. Cant help you with your crappy 3-you-old tantrums though. You'll need to go back to mom for that, Mr. Bean.
Well that's certainlly mature discussion.
Your caldari, I'm gona bet you've never glanced even sideways at medium rails? Just want to spack out heavy missiles and cruise until the cows come home? ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:42:00 -
[2046]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
So, you'd prefere it if PL and TRI and all those other corps and alliances who nano now, to go into full term siege mode in order to get a fights?
Also, as a self admitted care bear, how the hell do you know what nanos can and can't achieve? How powerful they are?
******. ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:42:00 -
[2047]
Originally by: Hehulk Well that's certainlly mature discussion.
Your caldari, I'm gona bet you've never glanced even sideways at medium rails? Just want to spack out heavy missiles and cruise until the cows come home?
Oh wait, now we're playing the "mature card"? When I descend to your low crappy level of intelligence you whip out the "THAT'S NOT MATURE!" Don't make me laugh. I rather you keep spewing ******ed remarks, as I'm willing to bet that's your true persona.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:44:00 -
[2048]
Originally by: Hehulk
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
So, you'd prefere it if PL and TRI and all those other corps and alliances who nano now, to go into full term siege mode in order to get a fights?
Also, as a self admitted care bear, how the hell do you know what nanos can and can't achieve? How powerful they are?
******.
Oh, you mean all of 0.0 is sovereign and player-owned? I don't know if you're playing the ****** or not. Either way the shoe fits. Wear it.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:44:00 -
[2049]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Hehulk Well that's certainlly mature discussion.
Your caldari, I'm gona bet you've never glanced even sideways at medium rails? Just want to spack out heavy missiles and cruise until the cows come home?
Oh wait, now we're playing the "mature card"? When I descend to your low crappy level of intelligence you whip out the "THAT'S NOT MATURE!" Don't make me laugh. I rather you keep spewing ******ed remarks, as I'm willing to bet that's your true persona.
You've gone from "can't we all just get along?" to making clueless remarks to flaming. You should win a trophy for most valuable forum contribution. Just be quiet already.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:50:00 -
[2050]
Originally by: gandrig
Your disliked cos your a ******* it has nothing to do with your eve carrier tbh.
Yes, but why am I an *******? Be more descriptive. Tell me how I'm ruining your life, etc. What can I do to make you go from disliking me to all out hating me?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:50:00 -
[2051]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 18:53:54
Originally by: gandrig
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
Your disliked cos your a ******* it has nothing to do with your eve carrier tbh.
If this was a nerf carebear thread you would not see me or others posting in it cos i could not give a toss as im a pvper in fact if i had to id actually vote for what ever the carebears enjoyed to do most as thats what playing the game is all about.
Your problem is you enjoy seeing other ppl pi*sed off about stuff they enjoy being removed from the game even though it does not effect you one little bit and that makes you a real ******* and exactly why me and others do not like you tbh.
You hit the nail right on the head buddy.
PS: LOL the tard cut out your explanation then asked for one in the same post ffs.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Cain Calzon
Caldari Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:50:00 -
[2052]
yey, me a very happy camper now :D now to fix the afk cloaking and ill be a very happy panda
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:52:00 -
[2053]
Edited by: Hehulk on 26/07/2008 18:52:28
Originally by: Matrix Skye Oh, you mean all of 0.0 is sovereign and player-owned? I don't know if you're playing the ****** or not. Either way the shoe fits. Wear it.
Again you show your ignorance. Alliances, as a rule of thumb that plenty of experience has show me, operate in two modes
1) Alliance leader tells his troops to relax, make some isk, go raid the hostiles next door to keep their PVP skills sharp and generally have some good old fasioned fun 2) Alliance leader says we're going to get some new space, everyone suit up. From then on you're talking about large BS slugfests, capitals droping like there's no tommorow, and lots of lag.
I know which I prefere, but there's a problem to that. When you go raid those hostiles, they'll get as many people as possible into a gang (Which in all fairness I can't say I fault, if people want to pew pew, shouldn't stop them) then come haring after you. Now, by this point you'll have caused what damage you can, all the idiots will be dead, those who watched channels will know your there and wil have safed up.
If your in nanos, their fleet needs to set it's self up to counter you. If your in general assorted slow ships, they'll bring whatever, damn how fast or slow you are, and just use jump bridges you drop on your head. I've seen it done, and I've done it plenty ot times. Now, nanos have a hope of escaping against a shit gang, something designed to stop them (Rapier, Curses, caldari and gallente rail boats, amarr pulse ships) will curb stomp them hard. The slow fleet will get slaughtered regardless of what the people you've just raided bring by virtue of sheer numbers.
Who's gona raid with that as the only option?
Also, how are nanos ruining your game? I can't see how tri nano gangs are effecting your mission running in motsu. ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Dray
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:53:00 -
[2054]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean They are right its ppl like you who are unwilling to learn piloting skills that are reducing the game and its content.
Here is a way for the morons who want eve to be perfectly "BALANCED" as thats the word they like to use.
Remove every ship apart from one from the game give it a single available fit and also give everybody perfect skills in it.
There perfect "BALANCE".
I was thinking more along the lines of CCP actually fixing the imbalances such as nanos and letting the tards from Pandemic and Tri die off, since obviously they cannot live without hugging nanos .
Just quit and move on already. I have enough tears from you alone to power my satisfaction that you suck at Eve. Bye bye.
Actually they're not crying as you understand it, they are telling you it isnt broken but CCP is listening to you and not them, but people like PL will adapt and move on, something which you seem unable to try or do, ultimately however many of these changes go thru they will come back at you and give you another reason to whine.
Infact if you look closesly they are doing you a favour, nano ships are easily countered, you get these changes in and they just try another tactic which you will invariably will come to the forums to moan about and this whole thing starts allover again.
It's all good tho, they will eventually get sick and CCP will finally be free of the vets, which on the face of it they dont seem to want anymore.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:54:00 -
[2055]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Boz Well You've gone from "can't we all just get along?" to making clueless remarks to flaming. You should win a trophy for most valuable forum contribution. Just be quiet already.
Wow! Very insightful! Please, tell me how much I suck and how much you hate me :P.
I am a Caldari player specializing in Caldari ships! BRING IT! \o/ Tell me how much you want me to quit, and how much I'm ruining your game
Sry m8, but i can flying with other races ship Frigates to BS and CS. But i and another palyers don't wanna playing with Caldari,Drake or Lag online. I like it use my brain, and i dont like it press just the F1-F8 buttons.
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Spacetrekka
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:55:00 -
[2056]
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 26/07/2008 18:48:29
Only aspect of 0.0 combat that daily pilots can partake in without sitting around for their own blob or getting blobbed themselves, is fast recon/hac gangs. If that gets taken away all of combat in 0.0 will be about numbers and nothing else.
Very good point about the dangers of this patch to small gang pvp. Thank you.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:56:00 -
[2057]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
Frigates and Hurricanes would be the only thing I'd bring out for a nanogang. As for a roaming gang, the last time we did them regularly sans nano was in Geminate over the winter holiday.
If we came close to 9P4, K25, BWF, anyplace like that, we almost always got blobbed by a mixed nano/heavy fleet of theirs that outnumbered us about 30:10. Most of the time, we usually had to retreat and lose about 10-20% of our forces that we couldn't get unstuck from their tacklers - we had a few good wins, but most of the time we couldn't stick around and had to haul ass for home. Got cut off by jumpbridges a few times, lost some scouts in the process, the works - so, I hope you can see why I'm more of a fan of nano than not.
It allows you to compete with their blob on a better footing - if they blob up to try and win, rather than through skill, you just shrug and head out. It makes them earn their kills, rather than just showing up and pressing F1-F8. If we hadn't been as good as we are, there are situations where we'd have been totally wiped out, rather than just taking a few losses...
I can sympathize with the position, and see your argument, but losing to superiour numbers (3 to 1) is just pure mathematics that shouldnt justify creating a class of ships that's only true counter is its own class.
In the end, either go at them with caps or roam in another region. Some places are too well defended and robbing those defenders of all that organization (that's tactics too, isnt it) by allowing a bunch of tricked-out-low-slot-abusing cruisers to roam around unscathed is just, not, right. ----------------- Friends Forever |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 18:56:00 -
[2058]
***IMPORTANT PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT*** ***IMPORTANT PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT*** ***IMPORTANT PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***
After reading Mother Moon's posts I would like to cordially extend a hearty invitation to interested parties to visit HEDALEOLFARBER.
Thats right...HEDALEOLFARBER! Thats right...HEDALEOLFARBER!
One of the Foundation preferred mission-running locations.
See the sights! Find mission running faction BS and take pictures! Featuring Mach/Navy Raven combos! Plenty of stations too! Start probing/scanning IVO top belt! Junk seen on scan on jump-in is usually POS'd up and/or unoccupied (normally a Sacriledge and random T1 stuff...but maybe they forgot to stront the towers? Who knows?)! Fun fun fun!
Get it while it's hot...and hey...it's the weekend .
Remember kids...its HEDALEOLFARBER! In Molden Heath losec just 5 quick jumps from TEONUSUDE!
Yeah!
***This public service announcement brought to you by the "get 'em back ingame committee supporting responsible game balancing"
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:57:00 -
[2059]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg In the end, either go at them with caps or roam in another region. Some places are too well defended and robbing those defenders of all that organization (that's tactics too, isnt it) by allowing a bunch of tricked-out-low-slot-abusing cruisers to roam around unscathed is just, not, right.
Oh so if we can't field over 1500 people that means that the entire south and the entire north is a no go area, and we should move back to lowsec? Riiiiiiiiight
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 18:59:00 -
[2060]
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn CAST YOUR VOTES FOR OR AGAINST THIS NANO NERF NOW:
Vote for it HERE.
Vote against it HERE.
Funny how the thread against the nerf is longer.
Minority is always loudest, right? ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar! |
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:00:00 -
[2061]
Originally by: Hehulk Edited by: Hehulk on 26/07/2008 18:52:28
Originally by: Matrix Skye Oh, you mean all of 0.0 is sovereign and player-owned? I don't know if you're playing the ****** or not. Either way the shoe fits. Wear it.
Again you show your ignorance. Alliances, as a rule of thumb that plenty of experience has show me, operate in two modes
1) Alliance leader tells his troops to relax, make some isk, go raid the hostiles next door to keep their PVP skills sharp and generally have some good old fasioned fun 2) Alliance leader says we're going to get some new space, everyone suit up. From then on you're talking about large BS slugfests, capitals droping like there's no tommorow, and lots of lag.
I know which I prefere, but there's a problem to that. When you go raid those hostiles, they'll get as many people as possible into a gang (Which in all fairness I can't say I fault, if people want to pew pew, shouldn't stop them) then come haring after you. Now, by this point you'll have caused what damage you can, all the idiots will be dead, those who watched channels will know your there and wil have safed up.
If your in nanos, their fleet needs to set it's self up to counter you. If your in general assorted slow ships, they'll bring whatever, damn how fast or slow you are, and just use jump bridges you drop on your head. I've seen it done, and I've done it plenty ot times. Now, nanos have a hope of escaping against a shit gang, something designed to stop them (Rapier, Curses, caldari and gallente rail boats, amarr pulse ships) will curb stomp them hard. The slow fleet will get slaughtered regardless of what the people you've just raided bring by virtue of sheer numbers.
Who's gona raid with that as the only option?
Also, how are nanos ruining your game? I can't see how tri nano gangs are effecting your mission running in motsu.
Use scouts to check next systems? Avoid roadblocks and use alternate routes? Move through a region fast and abandon it for another?
You dont ahve to loiter in an area until they have you cornered. You get in, kill what you can, and I doubt in 30-45min time you'll see the presence you're talking about. I know I havenet.
Hell, what prevents you from using long jumps to circumvent jump bridges? The gangs I operate in have done it to razor. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Sonreir
Gallente Band of Builders Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:01:00 -
[2062]
There is no such word as 'thusly'.
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:04:00 -
[2063]
Edited by: Archetype02 on 26/07/2008 19:04:52
Originally by: Sonreir There is no such word as 'thusly'.
there's also nothing meaningfull in this post.. if u want to be a spelling**** go find a forum where they discuss spelling.. eve forums are not the place for this..
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:04:00 -
[2064]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn CAST YOUR VOTES FOR OR AGAINST THIS NANO NERF NOW:
Vote for it HERE.
Vote against it HERE.
Funny how the thread against the nerf is longer.
Minority is always loudest, right?
take some math classes
hint: check the replies vs checks, views vs checks. and *IF* ccp were to use those as an indication of any sort i hope they examine the alt and same-account-owner votes.
g' day
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Zabijucha
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:05:00 -
[2065]
Now Eve is quiet boring, it will be more boring. More boring game less $ for CCP.I hope that CCP will wake up soon and realize these changes are going to far.
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Glowy
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:05:00 -
[2066]
Originally by: Mioelnir - Decreased web effect: so, how exactly is one supposed to stop a tanked ship from reapproching the gate, except by bringing so many people that you near-instapop it?
I ask why you insist that a tanked ship not be capable of surviving a whole 13km trip back to jump range. Would it really ruin Eve if someone flying a strong hull has the possibility of surviving your camps?
As it is only ships with "ludicrous" speed survive by re-approaching. Heaven forbid anyone else use that tactic......
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:05:00 -
[2067]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Use scouts to check next systems? Avoid roadblocks and use alternate routes? Move through a region fast and abandon it for another?
You dont ahve to loiter in an area until they have you cornered. You get in, kill what you can, and I doubt in 30-45min time you'll see the presence you're talking about. I know I havenet.
Hell, what prevents you from using long jumps to circumvent jump bridges? The gangs I operate in have done it to razor.
Then you'll know that it's all a bit hit and miss. How many times can you go down the back route until they learn you always go down there and shove up a bridge? Ofc, alliance reaction times are variable. I've been in alliances that takes forever to form up, and I've raided those who seem to form a 25 man gang for 5 invaders inside 5 minutes.
Serous curiosity: What type of gangs do you take to raid razor? ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:09:00 -
[2068]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn CAST YOUR VOTES FOR OR AGAINST THIS NANO NERF NOW:
Vote for it HERE.
Vote against it HERE.
Funny how the thread against the nerf is longer.
Minority is always loudest, right?
That is a false assumption.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
ZW Dewitt
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:09:00 -
[2069]
Originally by: Matrix Skye take some math classes
hint: check the replies vs checks, views vs checks. and *IF* ccp were to use those as an indication of any sort i hope they examine the alt and same-account-owner votes.
g' day
Take some statistics classes
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:13:00 -
[2070]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt
Originally by: Matrix Skye take some math classes
hint: check the replies vs checks, views vs checks. and *IF* ccp were to use those as an indication of any sort i hope they examine the alt and same-account-owner votes.
g' day
Take some statistics classes
Helping my case and I bet you're not even realizing it, are ya?
Not very bright you are. Read the page you just linked to me.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:15:00 -
[2071]
wah
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:19:00 -
[2072]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 26/07/2008 19:20:22
Originally by: Hehulk
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Use scouts to check next systems? Avoid roadblocks and use alternate routes? Move through a region fast and abandon it for another?
You dont ahve to loiter in an area until they have you cornered. You get in, kill what you can, and I doubt in 30-45min time you'll see the presence you're talking about. I know I havenet.
Hell, what prevents you from using long jumps to circumvent jump bridges? The gangs I operate in have done it to razor.
Then you'll know that it's all a bit hit and miss. How many times can you go down the back route until they learn you always go down there and shove up a bridge? Ofc, alliance reaction times are variable. I've been in alliances that takes forever to form up, and I've raided those who seem to form a 25 man gang for 5 invaders inside 5 minutes.
Serous curiosity: What type of gangs do you take to raid razor?
It was mixed (I normally flew a double rep Hyperion or Eos) and we never stayed in their domain, but moved to MM and other central southern Northen region (whoa). They responded with their own mix, mostly nano's. Was fun engagements, I--in my BS and Eos-- got out alive.
But hey, if those people have that kind of coordination and memory to respond to defenders in that way, why cant they be rewarded with blocking off the invaders? Its a bummer for the attackers, but there is 5,000+ systems in EVE. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Halviasan
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:20:00 -
[2073]
Originally by: Gnulpie I don't understand all the fuzz with speed and the proposed changes.
First of all, there are very effective counters!
Second, easy solution to fast speeds: add massive agility penalty when using mwd!
You can go fast as lighting, but you could fly only straight lines. So the only use would be to get quickly close to the target or trying to get quickly away.
Just add the speed bonus of the mwd as agility penalty and voila ...
Oooh, I like this idea.
But really, the fact that ABs aren't used in PVP is not a major concern for most players.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:22:00 -
[2074]
Thanks alot CCP, now it truely will be BLOBS ONLINE or BOB's ONLINE, which ever one fits.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:24:00 -
[2075]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Thanks alot CCP, now it truely will be BLOBS ONLINE or BOB's ONLINE, which ever one fits.
BOB'S BLOBS?.
Say it seven times fast.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:26:00 -
[2076]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 18:53:54
Originally by: gandrig
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
Your disliked cos your a ******* it has nothing to do with your eve carrier tbh.
If this was a nerf carebear thread you would not see me or others posting in it cos i could not give a toss as im a pvper in fact if i had to id actually vote for what ever the carebears enjoyed to do most as thats what playing the game is all about.
Your problem is you enjoy seeing other ppl pi*sed off about stuff they enjoy being removed from the game even though it does not effect you one little bit and that makes you a real ******* and exactly why me and others do not like you tbh.
You hit the nail right on the head buddy.
PS: LOL the tard cut out your explanation then asked for one in the same post ffs.
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
ok now I get it your an exploiter unhappy your cheat has been found. I understand I was able to walk through any wall in archlord in the beta by spamming forward and click but they took it awya :(
was fun to pk and run away through a wall by cheating to not die :P
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Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:29:00 -
[2077]
sophisticatedlimabean look m8 your overpowered solo pwn mobile is going,your just going to have to do it the old fashioned way to get your fun,you know all get into interceptors and you know actually take some risk.
You are sounding like a spoilt little child whose had his favorite toy taken away from him.
Apt or die,and quit your crying. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:30:00 -
[2078]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 19:33:19
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
ok now I get it your an exploiter unhappy your cheat has been found. I understand I was able to walk through any wall in archlord in the beta by spamming forward and click but they took it awya :(
was fun to pk and run away through a wall by cheating to not die :P
Ive never done or seen anybody do close to 45kms ever (although im not sure its possible tbh) and i really doubt that you have seen anybody do it either tbh.
And i have never seen a gang of ships do it either but if your saying that its prevalent around eve to see gangs doing these sort of speeds id be interested to see your evidence.
Originally by: Motaka sophisticatedlimabean look m8 your overpowered solo pwn mobile is going,your just going to have to do it the old fashioned way to get your fun,you know all get into interceptors and you know actually take some risk.
You are sounding like a spoilt little child whose had his favorite toy taken away from him.
Apt or die,and quit your crying.
I do not fly nano in fact my last 500 kills were in a caldari ship.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:31:00 -
[2079]
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
ok now I get it your an exploiter unhappy your cheat has been found. I understand I was able to walk through any wall in archlord in the beta by spamming forward and click but they took it awya :(
was fun to pk and run away through a wall by cheating to not die :P
FFS MORON! Nothing goes that fast. We're talking about a 4-5k/s HAC. I hope you get kicked from whatever blob your a part of and realize that nano's are the only anti blob tactic.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:36:00 -
[2080]
Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 19:41:01 Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 19:38:41
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
lol this. But im sorry to tell you that CCP have listened to whiners all the years. You actually proof CCP is doing wrong ATM.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
You too.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 19:36:00 -
[2081]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 26/07/2008 18:53:54
Originally by: gandrig
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean NANO is not overpowered ppl are just under trained and unwilling to improve when crying for a nerf is easier.
That's YOUR ******ed opinion. You know very dam well they're overpowered. It's why your alliance PL and TRI are so vehemently against this nerf. But keep sobbing and calling people stupid and idiots as long as it makes you feel better
And yes, I am a carebear, tell me how much you hate and despise me, I love your whines. I only wish I could harness the tears right off your cheeks, while they're fresh and still warm.
Your disliked cos your a ******* it has nothing to do with your eve carrier tbh.
If this was a nerf carebear thread you would not see me or others posting in it cos i could not give a toss as im a pvper in fact if i had to id actually vote for what ever the carebears enjoyed to do most as thats what playing the game is all about.
Your problem is you enjoy seeing other ppl pi*sed off about stuff they enjoy being removed from the game even though it does not effect you one little bit and that makes you a real ******* and exactly why me and others do not like you tbh.
You hit the nail right on the head buddy.
PS: LOL the tard cut out your explanation then asked for one in the same post ffs.
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
ok now I get it your an exploiter unhappy your cheat has been found. I understand I was able to walk through any wall in archlord in the beta by spamming forward and click but they took it awya :(
was fun to pk and run away through a wall by cheating to not die :P
Jeeez, how thick are you. No one cares about nerfing 45km/s ships. If you actuall would do combat you would know that most of the nano ships you might encounter dont even break 5-6km/s
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Big Al
Stoat's Ultimate Carebear Adventure
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:41:00 -
[2082]
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:41:00 -
[2083]
Originally by: MotherMoon so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
ok now I get it your an exploiter unhappy your cheat has been found. I understand I was able to walk through any wall in archlord in the beta by spamming forward and click but they took it awya :(
was fun to pk and run away through a wall by cheating to not die :P
You are quoted saying 45000km/s is a game break/cheat/etc. Seriously, what can you do at that speed except go in a straight line... THERE ARE BALANCES TO THOSE SPEEDS. This is what people are not paying attention to. Even at 10km/s you cannot orbit at 15km at those speeds. Therefore all you are good for is quick and close safe spots and running away. How is running away breaking this game? A retreat should never be considered a cheat. Otherwise we might as well loose all distance combat as well and just have everyone sit at 10km range and blast away at each other.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:42:00 -
[2084]
BTW Nerf titans now. Titans + cyno jammer + large bubble = Unbreakable sov
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Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:49:00 -
[2085]
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
rik jonno
Swift Retribution
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:49:00 -
[2086]
HMMM tasty nannotears.
On the other hand /me hugs his Arazu
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Big Al
Stoat's Ultimate Carebear Adventure
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:53:00 -
[2087]
Originally by: Spartac0
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
I didn't have to gang with a furry for my speeds though.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:53:00 -
[2088]
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
Dude your a ****ing idiot, find those setups on tq
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.26 19:54:00 -
[2089]
Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 19:55:03
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
Uh nice, is that gist x-type 100mn MWD on that vaga? Now thats impressive, but I guess this thread actually is about pvp setups with actually guns and stuff.
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Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:00:00 -
[2090]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
Dude your a ****ing idiot, find those setups on tq
I use the crow on tq, ask any bob member. the vagabond though is useless on pvp except to bump idiots from stations. the vaga "nano setup" I use on tq does around 40km/s I can take ss when i get home if u want
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:01:00 -
[2091]
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 26/07/2008 19:55:03
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
Uh nice, is that gist x-type 100mn MWD on that vaga? Now thats impressive, but I guess this thread actually is about pvp setups with actually guns and stuff.
Amazingly, that vagabond is still only going a third the speed of light. Its mass would be magnificent. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:08:00 -
[2092]
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Spartac0
Originally by: Big Al
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
Where have you seen people doing 45km/s other than interceptors or oversize mwd cruisers on SiSi using drugs + claymore + hg snakes?
relevant link
OH MY GOD, 47km/s OVERLOADED CROW WITH MAX SKILLED CLAYMORE + HG SNAKES + DRUGS. BETTER NERF ALL SHIPS.
Posts like this should be enough to convince CCP not to listen to these idiots, too bad it won't.
your crow is slow. this crow and this vagabond is what they are referring as ludicrous speed.
Dude your a ****ing idiot, find those setups on tq
I use the crow on tq, ask any bob member. the vagabond though is useless on pvp except to bump idiots from stations. the vaga "nano setup" I use on tq does around 40km/s I can take ss when i get home if u want
T20 handing out snakes, officer MWD's, max gang skills, boosters and T2 polys now huh?
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:10:00 -
[2093]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Amazingly, that vagabond is still only going a third the speed of light. Its mass would be magnificent.
That vaga: about 100 km/s the speed of light: about 300000 km/s
Mhhhh...
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Woo Glin
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:15:00 -
[2094]
What I don't understand is the deactivation of the mwd when hit with a warp scrambler. The duration of a scrambler is 5 seconds, compared to the 10s of an mwd. Unless they increase the duration of a scrambler to something more than 10s, it would keep the mwd off 50-100% of the time, or an average of 75% of the time. Factor in a 500% mwd speed boost and you essentially have a ship going say 500m/s 25% of the time and 100m/s 75% of the time for an average speed of 200m/s...a speed reduction of 60%, or the new proposed web effectiveness. So it's essentially a scrambler and a web in one for virtually no cap. Factor in lag greater than 5s and you are screwed 100% of the time unless the MWD auto-reactivates.
They've essentially tried to stop fast ships by nerfing the best weapon (webs) and platform (minmatar recons) for fighting them and buffing a module (scrambler) that requires speed to use due to its range. It's even more of a stealth nerf to the range of scramblers now that 7.5km is much farther because of somewhat reduced speed across the board. It's essentially range inflation.
Also consider the implications for fleet battles and tackling. If I'm 150km off, the trip to engage me which used to take 10s in your 15km/s ship will now take 33s in your 4.5km/s ship, giving me more than 3x more time to fire at you while doing increased damage due to reduced tracking/explosion velocity tanking.
Why then would they do this when there are many other, more simple, solutions? Let's take a look at who benefits...
Overall reduced ability to speed tank: ratters ( particularly ravens) trying to escape ganks Increased ab speed: mission runners moving in the absence of mwd, ratters who don't want to sacrifice grid/cap for mwd Reduced web strength: mision runners webbed by turrets.
To me, this seems like a mercy patch to alleviate some of the stuff pubbies complain about, but also wrecks current pvp mechanics, hence the use of the nefarious snaked deadspace gang/titan/drug/loud music boosted 20km/s vagabond that everyone flies and can afford as some sort of scapegoat for us all to hate.
Solutions: a.) Reduce the effectiveness of the HIGH-END modules, or increase their cost even more. Risk:Reward b.) Introduce modules which affect the effectiveness of missiles allowing pilots to specialize their damage. Giving them a niche would also reduce the related problem of missiles being less useful for pvp. Nanos are specialized ships, we need the option for a specialized counter-mechanism (other than webs), which is missing. c.) Have pubbie ratters pay the hell attention to local and fit neuts and a cloak like the rest of us.
The simple fact is that the proposed changes are heavy-handed, and severely limit the usefulness of the Minmatar race, and HACS in general. The result, as many others have pointed out, is an increase in blob warfare and nearly consensual PvP. Some action is needed to curb the top-end speeds which provide near-invulnerability against vanilla tactics, but this is not it. If you broadly nerf speed the super-rich highly skilled pilots will still be the fastest relative to everyone else. The people that will be hit the hardest will be those who cannot use or afford the high-end upgrades, as their speed will be too slow to be of consequence.
By the way... I'm Caldari and I fly ECM boats.
tl:dr ccp is dum lololol
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Kreeak
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:16:00 -
[2095]
Edited by: Kreeak on 26/07/2008 20:22:16 This is going to make Eve so much better. The amount of setups that may be viable due to weapon systems actually being effective will be staggering. Webs being reduced to 50-60% is harsh, but if that is necessary, so be it.
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg In the end, either go at them with caps or roam in another region. Some places are too well defended and robbing those defenders of all that organization (that's tactics too, isnt it) by allowing a bunch of tricked-out-low-slot-abusing cruisers to roam around unscathed is just, not, right.
Oh so if we can't field over 1500 people that means that the entire south and the entire north is a no go area, and we should move back to lowsec? Riiiiiiiiight
You almost got it. The correct answer is you, PL, Tri, and the rest of the cowardly glass nano*** alliances should disappear back into obscurity because all your skill and experience is departing with the speed rebalancing.
Bye bye now.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:20:00 -
[2096]
Originally by: Kreeak This is going to make Eve so much better. The amount of setups that may be viable due to weapon systems actually being effective will be staggering. Webs being reduced to 50-60% is harsh, but if that is necessary, so be it.
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Oh so if we can't field over 1500 people that means that the entire south and the entire north is a no go area, and we should move back to lowsec? Riiiiiiiiight
You almost got it. The correct answer is you, PL, Tri, and the rest of the cowardly glass nano*** alliances should disappear back into obscurity because all your skill and experience is departing with the speed rebalancing.
Bye bye now.
Yeah! Because when people are so stupid they ccan't counter your tactics and training, it's time for a nerf!
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:23:00 -
[2097]
CCP, good work!
It's been obvious to fair-minded people for quite awhile that the ludicrous speeds were ludicrous. It should surprise no one that the nerf bat is finally swinging.
What I'm especially pleased to see is a "nerf" that adds complexity to the combat engine, rather than simply removing a popular option. By enhancing warp scramblers and altering the behavior of MWDs, there's a bunch of tactical uncertainty, instead of one "obviously right" fit for every situation. I think this will make combat more interesting for everybody.
Being a missile-chucking Caldari, I'm delighted by the prospect of actually being able to shoot missiles at most combatants. However, I do agree that there needs to be some sort of available module-based counter to missiles.
The obvious approach, as many have suggested, would be to resurrect Defender missiles from their richly-deserved grave. I would propose making them an always-on defensive system, and letting them shoot at all enemy missiles, so that people could fly fleet-defense ships with lots of defender launchers. Right now, it's pretty pointless to fly defenders since you can't use them to defend your fleetmates and you can't turn them on during laggy combat.
I love missiles, but the brokenness of defenders is a fair complaint.
Very much looking forward to the play testing of the new changes -- lots of new things to try! ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Aoa Lux
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:24:00 -
[2098]
Originally by: Crumplecorn DO NOT WRECK BLASTER SHIPS
Well, I guess I can start training lasers...
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:25:00 -
[2099]
I wonder if Nozh expected 80+ pages of criticism.
Black Hand.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:30:00 -
[2100]
Originally by: Aoa Lux
Originally by: Crumplecorn DO NOT WRECK BLASTER SHIPS
Well, I guess I can start training lasers...
Luckily my Vaga-flying alt also has Amarr BS 5 and T2 Megapulse
But hey I can still use my mega for big 200v200 fleets
because that's incredibly fun right
right?
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:32:00 -
[2101]
For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
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DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:32:00 -
[2102]
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
Pinkranger
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:36:00 -
[2103]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
1 by 1
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:42:00 -
[2104]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
Fit ECCM and snipe the falcons. Smartbomb the drones.
Not even all that hard... ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar! |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:45:00 -
[2105]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin I wonder if Nozh expected 80+ pages of criticism.
Oh it'll easily hit the 160 mark. Mind you I think about half of it is just random mud slinging between alliances, and the rest is about 50/50 split in favour/against.
C.
See it the petitions: 25/75%
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Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:46:00 -
[2106]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
wait 6k ishtars ? what polycarb II's ishtars? lol.. i dont see any CS so im scrapping CS bonuses.. he must be using 3 billion in snakes too.. or overheating. wich wont last him long..
common nano ishtars travel at 3.8km/sec get your facts straight
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Zadren Radek
Gallente Ghost in the Machine Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 20:48:00 -
[2107]
Nice to see something being done to tone down the speed. But the nerfs may be a little too extensive.
From a purely personal perspective, I see big problems with the likes of the Blasterthron, Hyperion and Deimos. These ships NEED a functioning MWD to be able to close to combat range quickly, and the low tracking on blasters is going to make the reduction in web effectiveness even more painful.
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:00:00 -
[2108]
Originally by: techzer0 Fit ECCM and snipe the falcons. Smartbomb the drones.
Not even all that hard...
You have succesfully reduced some of their dps and EW, still 9 ships left to tackle and kill.
Originally by: Archetype02
wait 6k ishtars ? what polycarb II's ishtars? lol.. i dont see any CS so im scrapping CS bonuses.. he must be using 3 billion in snakes too.. or overheating. wich wont last him long..
common nano ishtars travel at 3.8km/sec get your facts straight
True, typo there, should be 5k/s ishtars.
CS is off grid so all you have to deal with are those 12.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:02:00 -
[2109]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 21:05:35
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
What ****ing ship in this game can go 45,000m/s? A completely maxed out, snaked, mindlinked claymore boosted gistii a-type t2 poly rigged stiletto overheating the MWD? You are throwing around strawmen like the ****** you are. That does not apply to 99.9% of situations in this game, and you know it.
no duh it doesn't, didn't you read the blog?
Quote: Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
also more importantly a cruiser shouldn't be an interceptor.
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Nas Xafat
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:03:00 -
[2110]
I WILL CANCEL MY 2 ACCOUNTS IF THAT STUPID PATCH BECOMES REALLITY
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:06:00 -
[2111]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: techzer0 Fit ECCM and snipe the falcons. Smartbomb the drones.
Not even all that hard...
You have succesfully reduced some of their dps and EW, still 9 ships left to tackle and kill.
Originally by: Archetype02
wait 6k ishtars ? what polycarb II's ishtars? lol.. i dont see any CS so im scrapping CS bonuses.. he must be using 3 billion in snakes too.. or overheating. wich wont last him long..
common nano ishtars travel at 3.8km/sec get your facts straight
True, typo there, should be 5k/s ishtars.
CS is off grid so all you have to deal with are those 12.
OHHHH so theres a CS now?? Lemme guess, when you get proven wrong again theres a nano-titan that decloaks right??? RIGHT???
Oh no nano-titan, it already popped
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Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:06:00 -
[2112]
Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:08:18 Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:07:41
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:12:00 -
[2113]
Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 21:06:52 Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 21:05:35
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
What ****ing ship in this game can go 45,000m/s? A completely maxed out, snaked, mindlinked claymore boosted gistii a-type t2 poly rigged stiletto overheating the MWD? You are throwing around strawmen like the ****** you are. That does not apply to 99.9% of situations in this game, and you know it.
no duh it doesn't, didn't you read the blog?
Quote: Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
also more importantly a cruiser shouldn't be an interceptor.
Quote: Combining all of the above with a faction MWD results in as much as an eightfold increase in speed over what a vessel can reach with a normal tech2 MWD. If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds.
Well we know 2 things about you, you fly in a blob and don't have enough balls to post with your main.
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Brzhk
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:16:00 -
[2114]
to all the 'new blob era prophets':
today, it's just getting a bigger nano blob than the other.
Is this what you call skirmish warfare?
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:18:00 -
[2115]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 26/07/2008 21:18:57 @Otellus: He's talking about killing, not driving off. Driving off a tackler is fine in a fleet fight, since it keeps him from doing his job, but killing is something else.
Constructive criticism at the dev department: at least make the 7.5km scram use scripts. no script = 10km, 1 point warpcore destabilistation amplifier script = 7.5km, 2 points local warpfield inversion script = 7.5km, disables MWD
OR
undo the scripts for Sensor Boosters, Tracking Computers etc. Because after all, you know, 2 distinct bonuses from one module is overpowered.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:20:00 -
[2116]
Originally by: Brzhk to all the 'new blob era prophets':
today, it's just getting a bigger nano blob than the other.
Is this what you call skirmish warfare?
No, apperently "skirmish warfare" means bring the bigger blob. Now I totally understand FW, train the noobs to blob.
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DelboyTrotter
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:23:00 -
[2117]
Originally by: Z3r0n
Imo CCP is trying to nerf the speeds on EVERYTHING because thex want to reduce the speed of all ships.... that sorta makes sense wouldn't you agree? I really don't see the problem... CCP said their engine is broken when the speeds go above "ludicrous" level so they try and scale all the speeds down a bit. I don't understand why everyone is whining so much just because all ships are going slower including nanos, missile boats, blaster boats and even haulers with an MWD... so instead of charging a BS flying 1,3km/s in your blaster boat doing 3km/s you now will charge him flying 2,2km/s but he will also only be able to fly 800m/s so you will still catch up.
The problem is that they are not changing the speed of missiles and drones along with the speeds of the ships, and that most minmatar ships only advantage currently of ships of the same class is speed, or in the case of the recons, the ability to stop ships speed and target paint (lol).
If they reduced the effect of missiles and drones somehow, like rail and projectile guns have to deal with tracking, optimals, and faloffs, and gave minmatar ships some other benefit other than speed, I would be perfectly happy to accept their changes.
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Joakim Wasyl
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:24:00 -
[2118]
Nano vagabond still looks viable ?, 4Km/s is fast enough to take almost no damage from drones / light missiles.
Of course, my main just finished training for am Ishtar, which may be a (cough) *little* (cough) compromised.
Ho hum.
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Kretin Arnon
Amarr Path of the Immortals
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:25:00 -
[2119]
Originally by: Otellus Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:08:18 Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:07:41
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
You don't find it a bit odd that your "success" criteria depends on if your ships stand a chance of surviving the nano fleets attack without a loss, and not on how well your chance of annihilating the nano fleet? +--------------------------+ For now I sleep and watch |
DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:28:00 -
[2120]
Originally by: Kretin Arnon
Originally by: Otellus Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:08:18 Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:07:41
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
You don't find it a bit odd that your "success" criteria depends on if your ships stand a chance of surviving the nano fleets attack without a loss, and not on how well your chance of annihilating the nano fleet?
This.
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:29:00 -
[2121]
The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:30:00 -
[2122]
Oh and nevermind the impact this will have on the eve markets. Angel rats are now worthless as salvage. Good luck for those running minnie missions as half of your lp store is now worthless. Oh and lets not forget the hugin/rapier builders, who now find themself with one of the most usless products in the game.
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Tobias Lee
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:31:00 -
[2123]
Why not just give any nano module a lock range penalty similar to the current warp core stab penalty but per module ie overdrive 1 penalty polycarb 2 penalties. Still means u can nano for travel but not for pvp.
From speaking to people in channel the only disrupter that stops an mwd are the short range around 10km ones. How many ceptor pilots or hac pilots for that matter fight at that range? urrrr none cause they like to stay out of web nos and neut range.If your gonna make disrupters turn off an mwd at least make it the 20km ones:)
Nano gangs are laughing at these changes as we speak cause all your doing is making it easier for em by nerfing webs? why? dont make sense. even if you make the ships slower but still nanoable all the nanos will do is switch hams for heavies and fly long range ishtars and still carrying on running away.
On the flip side people might think oh well we cant nano so lets urrrrm blob yeah great jump into system and die in a blob battle before your overview even loads epic fail :P
Oh yeah on a final note i do fly a vaga but mine does 4km a sec not 12km and i can fly alot of stuff that aint nano but i dont wanna b trying to pvp in 600 man blob gangs , may as well right click and self destruct cause thats about all i will b able to achieve with the extremely laggy servers.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:31:00 -
[2124]
Originally by: DefJam101
Originally by: Kretin Arnon
Originally by: Otellus Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:08:18 Edited by: Otellus on 26/07/2008 21:07:41
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
You don't find it a bit odd that your "success" criteria depends on if your ships stand a chance of surviving the nano fleets attack without a loss, and not on how well your chance of annihilating the nano fleet?
This.
Not at all. Since your nanofleet is incapable of killing anyone except for a lone ratter, for which a single vagabond, or perhaps a vaga and a falcon are sufficient, why would I set a higher standard needed for the fleet to counter it.
If I follow your line of thought, single force recons and covops and interceptors really need to be nerfed to hell. Because, tell me, what could ever hope to kill a crow who doesn't want to get killed. He can run back to gates at infinitum or warp around safespots. You would not catch him in a million years. For covops and force recons that can warp cloaked, the best you could ever hope for is driving them off if they don't want to get caught.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:32:00 -
[2125]
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:32:00 -
[2126]
Oh, Otellus is me. My computer seems to decide on a case by case basis which character I am gonna post with it this time.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:34:00 -
[2127]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
This sort of question is posed by paper tigers and proves nothing tbh cos if those ships are piloted by morons they will be ineffectual while a highly skilled gang of fewer ships could kick there butts.
The fact is that it in a lot if not all cases of gang fights it comes down to individual pilot skill, the skill and effectiveness off how each of the gangs work together and even a little luck for the jammers as falcons can be quite hard to jam.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:37:00 -
[2128]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Not at all. Since your nanofleet is incapable of killing anyone except for a lone ratter,
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:43:00 -
[2129]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
This sort of question is posed by paper tigers and proves nothing tbh cos if those ships are piloted by morons they will be ineffectual while a highly skilled gang of fewer ships could kick there butts.
The fact is that it in a lot if not all cases of gang fights it comes down to individual pilot skill, the skill and effectiveness off how each of the gangs work together and even a little luck for the jammers as falcons can be quite hard to jam.
Yet you answer without actually answering the bloody question. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:43:00 -
[2130]
Originally by: Otellus 3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
That sounds like a nice tactic but the result is just a stalement where the nanogang just won't engage and move along. To actually catch and kill them you need a bigger nanogang yourself, and even then they are likely to get away unless caught during jump in (unlikely with a competent scout).
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:50:00 -
[2131]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
This sort of question is posed by paper tigers and proves nothing tbh cos if those ships are piloted by morons they will be ineffectual while a highly skilled gang of fewer ships could kick there butts.
The fact is that it in a lot if not all cases of gang fights it comes down to individual pilot skill, the skill and effectiveness off how each of the gangs work together and even a little luck for the jammers as falcons can be quite hard to jam.
Yet you answer without actually answering the bloody question.
That is because as i said the question only has relevance to EVE fitting tool warriors who have spent most of their life in eve in missions or spinning their ship watching their skill training tick over.
Piloting and in gang teamwork skill + a little luck when both gangs are skilled is virtually always the deciding factor in a fight.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:51:00 -
[2132]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Otellus 3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
That sounds like a nice tactic but the result is just a stalement where the nanogang just won't engage and move along. To actually catch and kill them you need a bigger nanogang yourself, and even then they are likely to get away unless caught during jump in (unlikely with a competent scout).
To be honest I don't mind that they're making changes to nano's, slowing them down, etc. But I just can't say I like that they're throwing this MANY changes into the game all at once. Why not implement a choice few of this list, and then see how that changes things? Putting 5 hours of work into brainstorming, basing changes off a lolvaga fit (casual hg snake set), and then throwing in a ton of changes just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Nano's had a nerf coming, but CCP doesn't have to take a sledgehammer approach to it. Nerf polycarbs a bit, maybe implement stacking, and then see how things are balanced. Or throw some extra nano counters into the game, i.e. scramblers like proposed (except use a script) or go with the suggestion that webbers get scripts to work at range at reduced effectiveness. Make it so there are more counters to nano's (although there already are a decent number of counters) and then see how it balances out. But don't just nerf it all to hell and change everything around.
Meh, just my $0.02.
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Cosy
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:52:00 -
[2133]
Originally by: Suitonia The thing that ****es me off the most is the fact that CCP are balancing the game around pirate implants, max skilled commandship pilots, tech II rigs and drugs.
/qft
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Any complaints can be directed towards our Music Director
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:52:00 -
[2134]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
This sort of question is posed by paper tigers and proves nothing tbh cos if those ships are piloted by morons they will be ineffectual while a highly skilled gang of fewer ships could kick there butts.
The fact is that it in a lot if not all cases of gang fights it comes down to individual pilot skill, the skill and effectiveness off how each of the gangs work together and even a little luck for the jammers as falcons can be quite hard to jam.
Yet you answer without actually answering the bloody question.
Maybe your not smart enough to see the answer.
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The fact is that it in a lot if not all cases of gang fights it comes down to individual pilot skill, the skill and effectiveness off how each of the gangs work together.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:53:00 -
[2135]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Otellus 3 tanked scimitars. 3 damage fitted muninns with a shield tank 3 scorpions 3 ceptors to web anything coming close.
All ships stay close together to get reps from the scimitars. Muninns snipe the drones of the ishtars, scorpions (or other EWAR specced ships) keep the falcons at bay. Once you killed the drones the nanogang has to flee because they have the DPS of a wet paper bag. Anyone getting primaried but not repped quickly enough can warp out because the rapiers wont be scrambling anyone since that would make them get too close to the ceptors who would web them so the muninns would wipe them out. In fact, any gang could just warp out from your nanogang right away if they so choose since there is no real tackling ability there.
Tactics are very simple. EWAR the nasty nanoships, ceptors screen your fleet but stay close so anyone trying to web them needs to get close and gets killed. Its easy to drive a nanogang off beyond scrambling range so you can warp out when you get under heavy fire. Ishtars, always shoot the drones and ignore the ships. Once the drones are dead, Ishtars are expensive paperweights.
Most common mistake is sending ceptors directly at the nanogang, so they then get webbed and killed in short order by the nanofleet.
That sounds like a nice tactic but the result is just a stalement where the nanogang just won't engage and move along. To actually catch and kill them you need a bigger nanogang yourself, and even then they are likely to get away unless caught during jump in (unlikely with a competent scout).
Yes, its a stalemate. That nanogang is a shoddy gang anyway and can hardly kill anything. Actual fights always depend on tactics. If that nanogang makes a mistake, the ceptors will catch 1 or 2 of them and kill them. But if the nanogang is careful, they wont lose ships, but they wont kill anything either. Quite similar with a lot of other types of gangs. If it was 10 sniper battleships and 2 covops, you would have a hell of a time finding a 12 man gang capable of killing any of them as well if the snipergang doesnt want to get killed.
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DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:53:00 -
[2136]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean That is because as i said the question only has relevance to EVE fitting tool warriors
Irony alert!
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:55:00 -
[2137]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
12 curse/pilgram
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:55:00 -
[2138]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it to men with a pair of balls each.
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:56:00 -
[2139]
84 pages now....lets hope ccp gets their head straight and stops ****ing with the game while its still fun
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:57:00 -
[2140]
Edited by: Smokie McLottapot on 26/07/2008 21:59:07
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 21:55:40
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it men to men with a pair of balls each.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA someone needs a nap
Edit: but if you really want it, eve-mail me :) and fyi, there like bowling balls, but heavier
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Druadan
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:58:00 -
[2141]
Edited by: Druadan on 26/07/2008 21:58:14 For the most part this nerf is good. The speed rebalances are good, but I think that gang bonuses should be left close to how they are currently, and I think that the MWD-killing 7.5km scrams is just ridiculous, as it doesn't come close to effecting a change upon the prime nano offenders, while killing blasterboats outright.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Abernathy Wallace
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:58:00 -
[2142]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
And BTW Dionysus, I couldn't have proved my theory about CCP Dev's using EFT to figure out changes to game mechanics any better than your full snake set. Bravo chap you clearly fall into the "give them enough rope to hang themselves with" routine. Full snake set braking 4k/s now thats GENIUS! Cause god knows, appartlety with all the divine references in the dev poast you all think you are the gods of this game, EVERYONES GOT SNAKES. Theres a snake there, and a snake over there, oh look snakes it Jita, snakes EVERYWHERE... idiots.
QFT
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:59:00 -
[2143]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
dont you think that 9 people with over a billion isk of implants each deserve to stand a fair good chance in a fight? ****ing idiot
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:59:00 -
[2144]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:02:52
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 21:55:40
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it men to men with a pair of balls each.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA someone needs a nap
oh? what happened? i'm waiting? if you dont trust me we can use chribba to exchange info :) lets swap info so we can discuss this on a more man to man level. this is what you wanted, isn't it? :)
will the REAL Mr. Nutless please stand up :)
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:01:00 -
[2145]
Edited by: Smokie McLottapot on 26/07/2008 22:01:48 /quote CCP Nozh Get these motherfarking snakes of this motherfarking server!
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:02:00 -
[2146]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 21:55:40
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it men to men with a pair of balls each.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA someone needs a nap
oh? what happened? i'm waiting? if you dont trust me we can use chribba to exchange info :) lets swap info so we can discuss this on a more man to man level. this is what you wanted, isn't it? :)
well u certainly sound like one ****head who needs to be knocked down a notch
37 thornbury rise darlington england
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:03:00 -
[2147]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Edit: but if you really want it, eve-mail me :) and fyi, there like bowling balls, but heavier
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:06:00 -
[2148]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:06:56
Originally by: Red Thunder well u certainly sound like one ****head who needs to be knocked down a notch
37 thornbury rise darlington england
i need a number since i dont live in darlington, england :)
my address is:
7400 Stirling Rd Apt 121 Davie, Florida
id like to call you :)
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:09:00 -
[2149]
smokie,
i've sent you an evemail. now show me what those bowling balls of yours are made out of
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:09:00 -
[2150]
Edited by: Smokie McLottapot on 26/07/2008 22:10:06
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:06:56
Originally by: Red Thunder well u certainly sound like one ****head who needs to be knocked down a notch
37 thornbury rise darlington england
i need a number since i dont live in darlington, england :)
my address is:
7400 Stirling Rd Apt 121 Davie, Florida
id like to call you :)
(+354) 540 9100 - call and emo your heart out Mr. I'm tough over the phone.
Oh and this nerf sucks :)
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DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:09:00 -
[2151]
Originally by: Red Thunder well u certainly sound like one ****head who needs to be knocked down a notch
37 thornbury rise darlington england
Originally by: Matrix Skye i need a number since i dont live in darlington, england :)
my address is:
7400 Stirling Rd Apt 121 Davie, Florida
id like to call you :)
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
DelboyTrotter
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:10:00 -
[2152]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
Spending the same amount of isk that those ships cost would give you roughly 50 Drakes (including the insurance)
50x Drakes armed with FoFs for the 12 or so that get jammed. Before the nerf the recon gang would be decimated if they were stupid enough to engage.
Now think what it would be like after, when all the missiles are hitting for full damage as the recons are moving at 2-3km/s
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:12:00 -
[2153]
Originally by: DefJam101
The funniest thing ever posted
We have a winner!
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:12:00 -
[2154]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 26/07/2008 22:12:57
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
First of all, as you generously didn't specify the place, lets say:
this is in 0.0 space, the 12 hac/recon + 1 cs are a regularly visiting roaming gang with some nice bookmarks, the falcons are 220km off a gate not in line to anything celestial (but still idiots) and the other 9 hug the gate.
Now, Phase #1: - warp in a cloaked Cheetah using your awesome bookmarks too and position it to provide a warpin spot on top of the falcons (remember, they were established as idiots, so, sitting on top of each other and not cloaked) - warp in a plated bait discophoon on the gate and start the john travolta lightshow
Phase #2: - the 9 recon/hacs at the gate draw aggression
Phase #3: - warp a cap injected passive tank onyx to the gate and activate ze bubb0l - warp a disco raven on top of the falcons - warp in 8 200km optimal-range sniper Maelstrom, each to one of 8 different radial bookmarks surrounding the gate at 100km
Info-Mindlinked max skill Eos with all 3 information warfare, shield and armor resistance and signature reduction ganglinks is ofc offgrid parked at a pos (they get one too!)
\o/ Yes, I tried hard to come up with about as theoretical an answer as the question was.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:14:00 -
[2155]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:15:14
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot (+354) 540 9100 - call and emo your heart out Mr. I'm tough over the phone.
Oh and this nerf sucks :)
i see you punked out. nice try next time you call someone out to face you it would be nice if you didn't hide like the spineless creature you are! now hush
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:20:00 -
[2156]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:17:33
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot (+354) 540 9100 - call and emo your heart out Mr. I'm tough over the phone.
Oh and this nerf sucks :)
i see you punked out. nice try next time you call someone out to face you it would be nice if you didn't hide like the spineless creature you are! now hush
you're a work of art first you say i hide behind an alt and i'm nutless. when i call you out so we can be a bit more personal about it without hiding behind avatars you punk out like a girl. now you try and play it like "im tough". dood, i just did what you wanted and you *****ed out. :)
Yup, because giving personal info to a model mentaly stable person such as yourself is a great idea!
HIGH FIVE! o/\o
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:21:00 -
[2157]
itt idiot nano whiners are called idiots and prove it by posting their addresses onto an internet spaceship forum
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:23:00 -
[2158]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Yup, because giving personal info to a model mentaly stable person such as yourself is a great idea!
HIGH FIVE! o/\o
Here's a tip:
If you don't want crazy unstable people showing up to your face (and I am a bit unstable I admit ) STOP asking them to :) And especially don't call them nutless when they don't, and crazy when they do.
It makes you look a little like the nutless one.
real simple, no?
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Pattern Clarc
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:35:00 -
[2159]
Some quotes the CCP should take into consideration.
Quote: 1) The nerf doesn't fix anything, ships will still be able to go beyond the magic number and receive no damage, it's just a little harder. The mechanics is broken, hit effects and missiles are heavily simplified, instead of motion predictive effects, acceleration or deltaV, you have raw speed and transversal vs range determine the damage you receive. Until you fix this, you will not receive a fair mechanic for either side.
2) Most of the PvP'ers who you see as for nano's, are really just against the ******s you can't figure out how to deal with a tactic in the game. The real question is how do you deal with neuts and ECM?
3) 100mill ISK Cruisers flying at 2-3kms (before gang mods) did actually make sense, they where not immune to all damage, just stupid caldari HAM spammers (lasers really hurt Sad) and had a use/role outside that of what battlecruisers and frigs did.
4) People just can't seem to grasp the fact that you cant kill what you can't catch, it's a fundamental law of nature, if it's faster than you, it's going to get away, just as people will blob or go home when faced with an objective. It's just sheer pandering and idiocy that suggests we should be able to 'force engagements' magically, against anything that we are unable to out manoeuvre.
5) And what happens when we force an engagement???? The magical holy grail of PvP???? You either tank and gank, die, get ECM'ed or lag strikes and your left with the role of a dice... 80% of tactics and strategy in EvE revolves around starting a fight, unfortunately, it's like masturbating with sandpaper with a pay-off less pleasant than a poke in the eye with a rusty stick. Until there are more real time tactics in eve you shouldn't be touting that OMG, we cant force engagements bullcrap.
6) Most of EvE's problems fundamentally revolves around the laziness/ineptitude of the dev's, it took them 1 year to write that dev blog, jesusteddy****ingchrist, someone give them a noble prize.
Quote: the nerfing of nanos only serves to strengthen the DEFENSIVE side of EVE even more. The defense already has an undeniable advantage in large-scale gameplay, thus REDUCING fights. Nerfing nanos brings the scale even more in favor of a defensive style of play, thus REDUCING fights.
CCP needs to learn that they need to facilitate OFFENSIVE play, to make ATTACKING the normal mode of play. Offense is dynamic, defense is static and boring. Do they want to turn the game into a feudal contest where nobody leaves their borders except to siege a POS?
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DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:39:00 -
[2160]
Originally by: Mioelnir Edited by: Mioelnir on 26/07/2008 22:12:57
Originally by: Mashie Saldana *snip*
First of all, as you generously didn't specify the place, lets say: the 12 hac/recon + 1 cs are a regularly visiting roaming gang with some nice bookmarks,
lol
Quote: the falcons are 220km off a gate not in line to anything celestial (but still idiots) and the other 9 hug the gate.
lol.
Quote: remember, they were established as idiots, so, sitting on top of each other and not cloaked
lol!
Quote: each to one of 8 different radial bookmarks surrounding the gate at 100km
lol!!!
Quote: Info-Mindlinked max skill Eos with all 3 information warfare, shield and armor resistance and signature reduction ganglinks is ofc offgrid parked at a pos (they get one too!)
LOL!
Quote: \o/ Yes, I tried hard to come up with about as theoretical an answer as the question was.
Yes that is quite obvious m8. :P Even assuming all of these things this still doesn't really prevent them from running away as soon as shit goes down. Which is some very complicated shit to counter a single gang of idiots. (Idiots with nice bookmarks?)
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
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Xarax Sparow
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:40:00 -
[2161]
Stop to try to balance the speed system. This patch would be too much! It wont be a balancing because you dont know what will happen when the whole gameplay change.
I hate Blob und laggy fights!
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:40:00 -
[2162]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 22:45:34
Originally by: Boz Well Or, see how many racist/homosexual/political/survey/whatever else people think of free newsletters people subscribe you to, if you were stupid enough to post your real address/phone on the interweb.
i'm not *that* stupid :) just wanted to shut the "post with your main" crowd up i love it when the kiddiez call me spineless but when i scare them off a little they go hide behind their mommy's skirt. i'm quite enjoying all this actually.
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thoraxius demioses
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:40:00 -
[2163]
wel i got a question how wil this effect a thorax chassis bonus of mwd penalties?
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Pattern Clarc
Invicta.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:43:00 -
[2164]
Some quotes the CCP should take into consideration.
Quote: 1) The nerf doesn't fix anything, ships will still be able to go beyond the magic number and receive no damage, it's just a little harder. The mechanics is broken, hit effects and missiles are heavily simplified, instead of motion predictive effects, acceleration or deltaV, you have raw speed and transversal vs range determine the damage you receive. Until you fix this, you will not receive a fair mechanic for either side.
2) Most of the PvP'ers who you see as for nano's, are really just against the ******s you can't figure out how to deal with a tactic in the game. The real question is how do you deal with neuts and ECM?
3) 100mill ISK Cruisers flying at 2-3kms (before gang mods) did actually make sense, they where not immune to all damage, just stupid caldari HAM spammers (lasers really hurt Sad) and had a use/role outside that of what battlecruisers and frigs did.
4) People just can't seem to grasp the fact that you cant kill what you can't catch, it's a fundamental law of nature, if it's faster than you, it's going to get away, just as people will blob or go home when faced with an objective. It's just sheer pandering and idiocy that suggests we should be able to 'force engagements' magically, against anything that we are unable to out manoeuvre.
5) And what happens when we force an engagement???? The magical holy grail of PvP???? You either tank and gank, die, get ECM'ed or lag strikes and your left with the role of a dice... 80% of tactics and strategy in EvE revolves around starting a fight, unfortunately, it's like masturbating with sandpaper with a pay-off less pleasant than a poke in the eye with a rusty stick. Until there are more real time tactics in eve you shouldn't be touting that OMG, we cant force engagements bullcrap.
6) Most of EvE's problems fundamentally revolves around the laziness/ineptitude of the dev's, it took them 1 year to write that dev blog, jesusteddy****ingchrist, someone give them a noble prize.
Quote: the nerfing of nanos only serves to strengthen the DEFENSIVE side of EVE even more. The defense already has an undeniable advantage in large-scale gameplay, thus REDUCING fights. Nerfing nanos brings the scale even more in favor of a defensive style of play, thus REDUCING fights.
CCP needs to learn that they need to facilitate OFFENSIVE play, to make ATTACKING the normal mode of play. Offense is dynamic, defense is static and boring. Do they want to turn the game into a feudal contest where nobody leaves their borders except to siege a POS?
|
MECHcore
Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:44:00 -
[2165]
Good move CCP , these lames chicken nanosetups , it had to stop somewhere.
In the past you could fit dual or triple mwd,s , thx god this nano infestation will be solved aswell.
Looks like we might return to the gank/tank era again Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:46:00 -
[2166]
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 21:06:52 Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/07/2008 21:05:35
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: MotherMoon
so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
What ****ing ship in this game can go 45,000m/s? A completely maxed out, snaked, mindlinked claymore boosted gistii a-type t2 poly rigged stiletto overheating the MWD? You are throwing around strawmen like the ****** you are. That does not apply to 99.9% of situations in this game, and you know it.
no duh it doesn't, didn't you read the blog?
Quote: Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
also more importantly a cruiser shouldn't be an interceptor.
Quote: Combining all of the above with a faction MWD results in as much as an eightfold increase in speed over what a vessel can reach with a normal tech2 MWD. If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds.
Well we know 2 things about you, you fly in a blob and don't have enough balls to post with your main.
and this is a reply to the dev quotes how?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:48:00 -
[2167]
... and the EVE forums hit a new level of idiocy today.....
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:51:00 -
[2168]
Originally by: DelboyTrotter
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
Spending the same amount of isk that those ships cost would give you roughly 50 Drakes (including the insurance)
50x Drakes armed with FoFs for the 12 or so that get jammed. Before the nerf the recon gang would be decimated if they were stupid enough to engage.
Now think what it would be like after, when all the missiles are hitting for full damage as the recons are moving at 2-3km/s
I'd kind of like to buy some of those heavy missiles that hit even a 3km/sec target for anywhere near full damage.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 22:53:00 -
[2169]
Originally by: DefJam101 Yes that is quite obvious m8. :P Even assuming all of these things this still doesn't really prevent them from running away as soon as shit goes down. Which is some very complicated shit to counter a single gang of idiots. (Idiots with nice bookmarks?)
That is the nice thing about theorycrafting.
See, if the timing is right, and the 9 ships at the gate MWD out of the HIC bubble just as the Maelstroms exit warp, they are most likely not aligned to something to warp out and their MWD activation increased their align time + a bit of surprise and the +15% scan resolution from the mindlinked Eos can be enough for every Maelstrom to get one volley off.
Now all you need is a statistically improbable streak of wrecking shots (ask the inventors about that one...), perfect target calling by the cheetah and only one of the 9 to get stuck between discophoon and gate to kill them all.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:03:00 -
[2170]
I"M FREAKING OUT MAN!!
/brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior /brought to you by carl's junior
not sure what to think of all this. doesn't sound too insane i suppose, will be earth shattering however for the way EVERYONE flies.
i'd have to say my biggest fear in all this is creating worse blobs, we've done nothing but move towards the blobing style for the past couple years (anchorable bubbles really moved that along), this is another push in that direction.
---------
i'd have to say my biggest peeve in all this is wtf about missiles? many blasterboats are going to have trouble staying in range i bet. ac's are, well ac's (not overly great, not too shabby) but missiles things keep getting better and better.
i know there are some ships that shouldn't be able to evade missiles, and this is kinda off topic, but how the hell do we have a weapon system that has no VIABLE countermeasure? (defenders anyone? ). Speed was really the only one, and that will now be limited to very few ships to be able to evade.
how about a mid slot flack cannon? (or any midslot equivelent to a tracking disruptor) ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:03:00 -
[2171]
The for and against nano nerf threads seem to be telling the story of how ppl feel.
AGAINST THE NERF 15 PAGES SO FAR:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
FOR THE NERF TO GO AHEAD 5 PAGES:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:07:00 -
[2172]
Only if that "story" is a fairy tale.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:11:00 -
[2173]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean The for and against nano nerf threads seem to be telling the story of how ppl feel.
AGAINST THE NERF 15 PAGES SO FAR:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
FOR THE NERF TO GO AHEAD 5 PAGES:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369
LOL
________________ God is my Wingman |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:14:00 -
[2174]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean The for and against nano nerf threads seem to be telling the story of how ppl feel.
AGAINST THE NERF 15 PAGES SO FAR:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
FOR THE NERF TO GO AHEAD 5 PAGES:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369
This is cute, I voted.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:18:00 -
[2175]
there is something else nobody mentioned yet:
There are lots of men attracted to speed. Attraction to speed & high power machines is mostly a male trait and not everyone has it, but it is almost a genetic thing.
Speed is sexy. Building big powerful machines and controlling them is sexy.
This is one of those little facts of human life. It has nothing to do with game balance, but it has some relevance to the issue.
A nerf to speed is a nerf to fun. Many people play this game for fun.
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DefJam101
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:25:00 -
[2176]
Originally by: Mioelnir
Originally by: DefJam101 Yes that is quite obvious m8. :P Even assuming all of these things this still doesn't really prevent them from running away as soon as shit goes down. Which is some very complicated shit to counter a single gang of idiots. (Idiots with nice bookmarks?)
That is the nice thing about theorycrafting.
See, if the timing is right, and the 9 ships at the gate MWD out of the HIC bubble just as the Maelstroms exit warp, they are most likely not aligned to something to warp out and their MWD activation increased their align time + a bit of surprise and the +15% scan resolution from the mindlinked Eos can be enough for every Maelstrom to get one volley off.
Now all you need is a statistically improbable streak of wrecking shots (ask the inventors about that one...), perfect target calling by the cheetah and only one of the 9 to get stuck between discophoon and gate to kill them all.
Lol.
Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:25:00 -
[2177]
Originally by: DefJam101
Yes that is quite obvious m8. :P Even assuming all of these things this still doesn't really prevent them from running away as soon as shit goes down. Which is some very complicated shit to counter a single gang of idiots. (Idiots with nice bookmarks?)
Could you tell me what kind of gang that doesn't consist of total idiots cannot warp out of an engagement at the very start?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 23:30:00 -
[2178]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
so the current majority nano group is fine? aka the 3-4km/s hacs, and the vaga that goes a bit faster around 5km/s
and yet you change oh so much, when you think the problem is the uber pimped shit.
lovely
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Atreus Danerun
Amarr Caldari Bank
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:30:00 -
[2179]
Choose your side! "FOR" or "AGAINST" and then we shall see what CCP has to say.
Originally by: GO VOTE
AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF
FOR THE "NANO" NERF
T2 SALES & SERVICE
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:33:00 -
[2180]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
No, absolutely not and I am afraid we have detected humans that can't breath but are still walking. Oxygen helps your thinking chief. Do you even use your brain? MWDs stopping to scramblers. All MWDs getting the same boost, the list goes on and on.
For all of you nutjobs in this game and especially at CCP, I have seen 1, thats it 1 vaga go over 9k/s. 3 Intys around 24k/s. THATS IT. ALl of this nonsense you keep bringin up is just total garabage and has been brought on by FW. WHen you listen to complete PVP failures, will see how this game lasts
Yes, I make sure to always keep my oxygen tank firmly strapped and active.
The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.
so the current majority nano group is fine? aka the 3-4km/s hacs, and the vaga that goes a bit faster around 5km/s
and yet you change oh so much, when you think the problem is the uber pimped shit.
lovely
Silly Chainsaw, since average vaga user has t2 mods and casual t2 HG snake set, got to nerf the entire line-up. Your point would make sense if every casual player didn't have a full HG snake set, but c'mon, be realistic.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:44:00 -
[2181]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg In the end, either go at them with caps or roam in another region. Some places are too well defended and robbing those defenders of all that organization (that's tactics too, isnt it) by allowing a bunch of tricked-out-low-slot-abusing cruisers to roam around unscathed is just, not, right.
Thing is, we can't. Not only do we not have the numbers for a support fleet to field caps (that we don't have), but even if we did, we couldn't jump them into their territory as everything is cynojammed.
Every non-NPC sovereignty region is like this, from Geminate to Deklein to Providence. Only in places where sovereignty mechanics disallow defender advantages like jump bridges and cynojammers are old-style tactics like this possible (like Great Wildlands, where Foundation capital-blobs everything to death).
I'm not against a defender advantage - however, right now, its too severe. Nanos were the first and best defense against it, and now that they're being nerfed, going into 0.0 as a small corp and actively roaming it is going to be pretty suicidal. I wouldn't mind this nerf (at least most of it) if it didn't effectively rob us of 0.0 roaming capabilities.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Lobster Man
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:50:00 -
[2182]
Edited by: Lobster Man on 26/07/2008 23:52:32 For once I actually like the changes proposed here. Nanos have needed a nerf ever since the issue was first brought up ~2/3 years ago. Now 2 years and several nerfs later, it looks like it's time for round 3 of the nanonerf, and hopefully in this case, the 3rd time's a charm.
My only complaint is the afterburner will still probably be useless given the proposed changes, especially on larger ships.
People need to learn to change and adapt, and having an ishtar going 4k/s+ is just absurd
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:52:00 -
[2183]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Heartstone
So umm no offense but can we have an answer to them rather than answering the flippant ones please? Such as my question about how you are going to test the wide ranging implications of a change like this when you need the numbers to do so which simply aren't ever going to be available on SISI?
None taken at all.
Yes, the design and testing of these changes has already taken a lot of time and arguments here in CCP. But the range of testing has mainly been done to see that ships are balanced in speed and still able to be hit by appropriate weapon types, so most tests have involved small numbers of ships with very mixed weapon setups.
eg, Crow with speed setup vs a harp at extreme range, vs a kestrel with light missiles, and vs a drone boat using light drones. - or a vagabond vs a set of cruisers using turrets, missiles, and med drones to try to hit it etc. The ships have been balanced so far so that frigate sized ships can, with fitting, hit any other frigate sized ship, same for cruisers and battleships.
We are not sure about the final impact of things like the additional MWD disable effect of scramblers (just that it works and so far seems to give balanced results)
We have a month of time on Sisi to get play tests with more numbers. We would like to see some tests like a gatecamp setup, or a close in brawl, or an attempt at a hit/run attack. The things that are going on sisi need further playtesting and balancing - the values that have been given are not final and will be changed according to how the playtests go.
From the test we have done so far, a "speed setup" ship can still become pretty much invulnerable to ships that are not setup to counter them, but now an enemy that knows to expect "nano ships" will be able to have a serious effect, rather than just scaring them away.
heh a 125mm railgun II harpy can hit a 10.4km/s orbiting crow. as for a kestral, well it is fine for around around 5km/s interceptors.
anyway you can go fraps what happens with the high speed missiles on the internal server, sounds like an interesting watch also did you change the agility at all?
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.26 23:52:00 -
[2184]
Originally by: MotherMoon so going 45,000 m/s isn't overpowered or game breaking?
That's the thing.
It is too fast, it does need a nerfing. However, and this is a big however, in the process they shouldn't completely destroy the average nanoships out there.
Eliminate speed boosters, reduce snake and implant effects, stacking nerf polies? Most of these are okay within a reasonable nerf, to eliminate those people that are flying extremely fast while preserving the ability for "normal" people to nano around at slightly reduced speeds.
Its just, CCP's doing too much at once, changing too many variables too fast and nerfing it too hard. It also doesn't help that they don't know what a normal Vagabond fit is, or that they rely on the test server as much as they do - I'm not confident they know entirely what they're talking about, and that scares me, it really does.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:12:00 -
[2185]
Spped is not the issue for small gang tactics. Alpha strike and high dps is.
A trulky guerilla fighting style has nothing to do with speed. Its about finding your target, smashing it quickly and then running away.
So, the nerfing of speed is not the issue. The issue is restoring the alpha strike to minnie ships to rtebalance the loss of speed. By all means reduce speed, giove me agility instead. Let me hit like a sledgehammer and then warp away in five seconds..... then who cares about speed.
I see a blob, I warp in smash the highest dps ship as I am aligning and as it dies I warp out.
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Mar vel
Caldari A.I.M.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:18:00 -
[2186]
Finally....
This kind of nerf I don't mind.
There are several direct precursors to the evolution of Speed within EvE.
Fleet Warfare - horrendous experience. Gate Camping - 0.0 is essentially a series of gate camps. Bubbles - Mobile and Interdictors - the blight of 0.0 - *see gate camping Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs) HIC's and the Infini-point.
All of these "conditions" have enabled Nanology. People are ****ed about getting hosed every time the turn around to some new weapon or tactic that erases a few hundred million of their isk assets in :30s. Many times clones and implants as well.
So it should come as no surprise that people prefer Nano ships and Speed. Duh. It's the one thing that anyone can universally fit that allows them to protect themselves. This started off mainly as a means of Defensive tactics - it has now gotten to the point where it has been exhaustively exploited into the offensive format, which is why we're proposing to nerf it. I don;t have any fundemental problem with this, but I think you're dreaming if you think it will curb Speed.
So instead of having a 20-man gang of mix-use ships, you get 20-man Inty gangs, or (*surprise) more pilots and larger gangs in the speedier ships to make up for DPS considerations.
We're all fundementally aware that every ship has been *balanced* into oblivion so that everyone sucks vs. everyone (same class ships, ofc) however, it's no secret that numbers mismatch will yield the same results - DPS is DPS, and no ship has the ability to overcome concentrated firepower from a gang of 10-20 ships, even Intys.
And if they don't like the conditions of combat, Intys can just choose to MWD away @ 4k m/s - next gate/system/target. Oh well.
Conceptually I like the idea, but you're not addressing root-cause analysis (see items 1-5 above).
-Mar
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Lord Darcy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:27:00 -
[2187]
Edited by: Lord Darcy on 27/07/2008 00:30:15 OK i admit it i'm not reading 85 pager of um......comments my head will explode then i'll need to find a rifle and tall building. That said i'll add my 2 isk worth
I appreciate the idea of balancing class relative speed and appreciate the issues ludicrus speed presents to the game but in all honesty speed has always been and will always be a weapon both in reality and in a game. USAF unofficial moto - SPEED IS LIFE.
My suggestion is for ships and situations involving sily fast speed give players specific weapons to counter them like sily speed mods for small med drones. Also speed historicly has significant drawbacks that EVE simply doesnt penalize users on such as speed means fuel consumption and reduced armor and structural strength.
Can anyone remember the Battleship HOOD. Looked like a battleship. Hit like a battleship short on guns, ran like a cruiser. Armor of a tin frigging can. Respects to its iconic crew and its lost souls but in a match against a real armored dreadnaught in went down very fast.
Make all ships operating an anything over a ratio of X on its base speed use cap like crazy, make MWD effect base stats of armor, structure, shields and make them track like a dog. BUT if someone wants fast fast fast let them do it. This is a sand box remember not a CCP simon says game.
IT IS A LOGITIMATE STRATEGY TO MAKE HIGH SPEED STRAFING RUNS ON RELATIVELY STATIC TARGETS.
Don't take that away from players.
And no I am not a nano driver but do have 12 accounts with 6 capital pilots and do see a bad CCP trend of dumbing down the game.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:41:00 -
[2188]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Oh and do I get an all level 5 character to test stuff out on the test server? Also requesting the ability to spawn faction mwds, overdrives, and shaquils implant.
if not, I can't test a full snake set, or any ships other than zealot/crow, tech 2 rigs, or any of the game breaking stuff...
Get with it then!
Casual Vaga setup:
Quote: Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:44:00 -
[2189]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The reactivation delay only comes into effect when the module turns off - ie, the modules will continue and cycle until you turn it off, run out of cap, or are scrambled.
This was honestly the biggest problem I had with the proposed changes, but this quote may resolve that.
I take this to mean that if, say, I have a ship that's capable of permanently running its microwarpdrive (let's say it's a malediction with a few cap mods fitted), that once I turn it on, the MWD will run continuously until I turn it off, at which point it will, as normal, deactivate at the end of its cycle?
And further, that there will be some delay if I want to turn the MWD on again? Like something that would generate a message like "1mn Microwarpdrive II cannot be activated right now due to cooldown, please wait another 7 seconds" ?
Not complaining, just want to make sure I have understood your statement correctly. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:49:00 -
[2190]
Originally by: Gragnor Spped is not the issue for small gang tactics. Alpha strike and high dps is.
A trulky guerilla fighting style has nothing to do with speed. Its about finding your target, smashing it quickly and then running away.
So, the nerfing of speed is not the issue. The issue is restoring the alpha strike to minnie ships to rtebalance the loss of speed. By all means reduce speed, giove me agility instead. Let me hit like a sledgehammer and then warp away in five seconds..... then who cares about speed.
I see a blob, I warp in smash the highest dps ship as I am aligning and as it dies I warp out.
BRILLIANT... until you realize the next gate is bubbled......
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.27 00:50:00 -
[2191]
ok so.. incomming nano gang.....
get gang together some damage ships some remote reps and 1 or 2 mimitar recons - at which point the nano's are gonna cry.
this change is going to nerf the one things that is used to counter nanos 'minmatar recons' !
or have i missed something?
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UberTron
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Posted - 2008.07.27 01:26:00 -
[2192]
So like, have black ops been fixed yet?
ohsnap |
Cosy
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.27 01:32:00 -
[2193]
dunno if anyone posted this on missions a scrambler will affect the mwd frigates ? |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.27 01:39:00 -
[2194]
I felt I should post this, so it is visible to all the newcomers:
Here... this should suss all the screaming and yelling:
Vote, according to your opinion: ALL AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF
ALL FOR THE "NANO" NERF
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Motaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 02:05:00 -
[2195]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean The for and against nano nerf threads seem to be telling the story of how ppl feel.
AGAINST THE NERF 15 PAGES SO FAR:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
FOR THE NERF TO GO AHEAD 5 PAGES:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369
I lol'd at this,they had one with the gankageddon nerf as well and we all know how that turned out dont we.
But if you go to church today and pray really hard to baby jesus im sure...... NANO'S WILL STILL GET NERFED.
cry some more then cry harder.your one trick pony is going,and i for for one is a very very happy camper. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Miss Apple
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Posted - 2008.07.27 02:07:00 -
[2196]
So a HAC can go faster than a RECON? yeah that makes ALOT of sense [sic]
So while you rebalance speeds how about switching around the ships that would LOGICALLY go SLOWER with the ships that would LOGICALLY go faster
Ya know, I hate nano's as much as the next guy but thats why i'm training to fly them... I have a better idea.. how about we cut capital ship's armor in half.. I mean.. they have wayyyy too much tank after all...
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Nerra Fennur
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Posted - 2008.07.27 02:55:00 -
[2197]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I cannot be bothered to sift through all the carebear tears to find people that are actually posting sense, so if this has been mention already, sorry.
I like the dev blog, excellent changes and about time to. But you must now look at the rapier, it is overpowered because nanoness is over powered, so you must look at nerfing the rapier. Must!!
1) dianeces says you're retarded. 2) nerfing nanos is nerfing the rapier, and if you can't see that you really are retarded. 60% webs = rapier becoming pretty damn useless. Please, learn how to think before you make posts on this forum that I have to read. Also, the rapier is not overpowered currently, considering that if it scrambles you, then you can scramble it too, and neut it, and do damage to it, and regardless of range, it does absolutely terrible damage and is quite fragile. But I guess thinking is too hard for you, and the concept that it can't do anytihng to you without friends, unless you're fitting nanos, or are a blasterboat with no logn range ability, in which case, oh no, they thought and brought a counter, you didn't, too bad, so sad. And don't argue that it's overpowered in gangs because, guess what, if it's in a gang you should be in a gang too, in which case it just can't web enough people to protect itself, and even getting a frigate ontop of it can kill it fairly easily, or he'll have to unweb you to web it. Please, continue whining about things that aren't overpowered and making yourself look stupid. 3) I agree with dianeces, you're retarded.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:00:00 -
[2198]
Originally by: Nerra Fennur
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I cannot be bothered to sift through all the carebear tears to find people that are actually posting sense, so if this has been mention already, sorry.
I like the dev blog, excellent changes and about time to. But you must now look at the rapier, it is overpowered because nanoness is over powered, so you must look at nerfing the rapier. Must!!
1) dianeces says you're retarded. 2) nerfing nanos is nerfing the rapier, and if you can't see that you really are retarded. 60% webs = rapier becoming pretty damn useless. Please, learn how to think before you make posts on this forum that I have to read. Also, the rapier is not overpowered currently, considering that if it scrambles you, then you can scramble it too, and neut it, and do damage to it, and regardless of range, it does absolutely terrible damage and is quite fragile. But I guess thinking is too hard for you, and the concept that it can't do anytihng to you without friends, unless you're fitting nanos, or are a blasterboat with no logn range ability, in which case, oh no, they thought and brought a counter, you didn't, too bad, so sad. And don't argue that it's overpowered in gangs because, guess what, if it's in a gang you should be in a gang too, in which case it just can't web enough people to protect itself, and even getting a frigate ontop of it can kill it fairly easily, or he'll have to unweb you to web it. Please, continue whining about things that aren't overpowered and making yourself look stupid. 3) I agree with dianeces, you're retarded.
Lol. You nerf the rapier's primary module and then claim it isn't being nerfed? And overpowered? Huh? Maybe you meant useful, and it sure as hell is/was, but useful != overpowered.
4) I agree with Nerra.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:01:00 -
[2199]
Guys we really need this nano nerf
reason 1) nano ships are invincible. CCP have no admitted that they warp eve physics to become invisible, all powerful, and sexually virile
reason b) Snake sets are too cheap. Ive seen people undocking in thier first noobship with snake sets in. This is obscene and needs balancing. Im sick of 10km noobships harrasing me while im can baiting in school systems
reason III) Its really hard to hotdrop people with a 100man cap fleet if they wont stand still. How are 0.0 alliances meant to make up for their lack of skill if they cant just hotdrop or blob everything with lower numbers.
Hope everyone reads this and agree go nano nerf go. While your at it i once died to a bs too so they should probabaly be nerfed since its unfair that 2 noobships couldnt kill a bs.
Oh and nerf falcons cos a guy i know said once that they are ruining eve and he says hes good at pvp and stuff so he obviously knows what he is doing.
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Daelin Blackleaf
The Reclaimed
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:04:00 -
[2200]
Quote:
ALL AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF
ALL FOR THE "NANO" NERF
So the community is voting on changes they haven't tested yet. Reminds me of a child saying he doesn't like whats in the tin before he's tasted it based on the label.
Thankfully this is not a democracy despite some appearances to the contrary.
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keuel
Gallente Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:05:00 -
[2201]
meh, imo nanos really need a nerf, they¦re too fast and almost (at like 97-98% of time) invencible, even with neuts and many counters, the nano still have a chance to get out of the scram/neut/rapier/huggin range and warp, and engage and disengage at will even using a 90% web the nano is still too fast to get with (worse yet if he has a web too). IMHO (not offending) I really don¦t know why people complain about not nerf nanos if they know they are overpowered (and almost turning the game in to a nano-online, and yes, and then we have the capital online too, but ccp can prolly do a thing for it) that turn them invencible and jump a gate and run from a bubble quick enough without gettng hit (or some hits), I see no point and I totally suport the nano nerf as soon as the nerf don¦t kill the vaga asits a nano by nature.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:09:00 -
[2202]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 27/07/2008 03:11:06
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Quote:
ALL AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF
ALL FOR THE "NANO" NERF
So the community is voting on changes they haven't tested yet. Reminds me of a child saying he doesn't like whats in the tin before he's tasted it based on the label.
Thankfully this is not a democracy despite some appearances to the contrary.
So if I ask to you to drink some water from the toilet, you'll refuse, but then I'll say "but you haven't tried it yet! try it first before you complain" - and that would make it alright with you?
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:10:00 -
[2203]
Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 27/07/2008 03:11:16
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 21:56:57 Edited by: Matrix Skye on 26/07/2008 21:55:40
Originally by: Smokie McLottapot
Originally by: Matrix Skye The nano ho's defense:
"If you can't catch and kill nanos it's because you're an idiot and you suck! Now don't take my precious nano away because I don't want to die! But YOU are the cowards anyway!"
Maybe it's "Your taking away the only viable anti-blob tactic in game" thing that some don't like? And once again, post with your main Mr. Nutless
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it men to men with a pair of balls each.
lets see who's the chicken shit now. no hiding behind spaceship avatars. like two real men.
i live in fl can i play with you? you sound like a catcher and im an "ace" pitcher
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:18:00 -
[2204]
10 hours from my last post and the situation hasn't changed, the devs still suck ballz! |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:23:00 -
[2205]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Quote:
ALL AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF
ALL FOR THE "NANO" NERF
So the community is voting on changes they haven't tested yet. Reminds me of a child saying he doesn't like whats in the tin before he's tasted it based on the label.
Thankfully this is not a democracy despite some appearances to the contrary.
Aye, because it's better to have people that don't play the game but play EFT with their HG snakes decide these things after 5 long, grueling hours of brainstorming, rather than the people that are paying them for the services.
And to be honest, I think you can legitimately vote one way or the other even before you test any changes, because at least to me, it's pretty clear that this is too many changes at once. I don't mind a nano nerf at all, and I think one has been due, but do it with a few choice changes. Slow down the uberfast ships, put some controls on the 15+km/s ships, not the average joe 3.5km/s nanoboat. If there aren't enough counters in the game, and this is arguable, introduce some more counters. The scrambs as suggested can work for this, and I'd also consider the suggestion by Waratron (or whoever first came up with it) to implement scripted long-range webbers that slow for a reduced amount.
Maybe ALL these changes are necessary, and if so, implement them all. But do it a bit at a time, take feedback, and see how it goes. Don't just throw the entire list of changes in at once. I voted no because these changes simply look way too broad to me, and there's no need for such a sledgehammer approach. You can debate the utility of a poll that allows alts/other accounts/only regular forum readers to post (and that utlity is pretty close to 0 imo, haha), but that doesn't mean people can't express their opinion now.
Quote: IMHO (not offending) I really don¦t know why people complain about not nerf nanos if they know they are overpowered (and almost turning the game in to a nano-online, and yes, and then we have the capital online too, but ccp can prolly do a thing for it) that turn them invencible and jump a gate and run from a bubble quick enough without gettng hit (or some hits), I see no point and I totally suport the nano nerf as soon as the nerf don¦t kill the vaga asits a nano by nature.
Actually, some people are unhappy about the method of nerfing, not the nerf itself. This isn't a binary decision, it's not a question of "to nerf or not to nerf". That's only the first step, and then you have to ask the more/equally important question of HOW to nerf. Looks like here they brainstormed for 5 hours and then threw the book at this situation. And then they turn around and justify their plan to the community with an "average Vaga setup" including a full set of HG snakes? Meh, people have some right to be annoyed with CCP imo for this mess. When you train for something for a year + and spend billions on it (as well as countless hours), if they're going to nerf/change it, you'd at least like to see some decent justification, heh. Getting told a vaga with "nothing special except full HG snake set" was the basis for their numbers is like a slap in the face, imo.
I don't see it happening, but I'd love to see CCP come up with some numbers based on a decent, realistic setup, and then choose a handful of their list of changes to implement. Put in a few of these changes, maybe add in scripts for webbers (I always liked that idea), and see how those play out. Then go from there. This looks like too much at once to me.
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Stawos
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:29:00 -
[2206]
lolz @ all the PL crying!!!
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Nahia Senne
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:32:00 -
[2207]
Change is good.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:36:00 -
[2208]
Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 27/07/2008 03:42:03 Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 27/07/2008 03:41:31 Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 27/07/2008 03:36:50 i just found CCP's new Plan for PVP
I also will include a link to the footage that the screen shot was made from...
not a rick roll
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:38:00 -
[2209]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean The for and against nano nerf threads seem to be telling the story of how ppl feel.
AGAINST THE NERF 15 PAGES SO FAR:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371
FOR THE NERF TO GO AHEAD 5 PAGES:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369
I lol'd at this,they had one with the gankageddon nerf as well and we all know how that turned out dont we.
But if you go to church today and pray really hard to baby jesus im sure...... NANO'S WILL STILL GET NERFED.
cry some more then cry harder.your one trick pony is going,and i for for one is a very very happy camper.
you knwo what will be really funny though?
if the devs realize the error that they have made by thinking about such changes, and decide not to do it... that would be very amusing how many tears would that be then?
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:40:00 -
[2210]
Originally by: Nahia Senne Change is good.
change is so good it may even add up to equal dollars....
pffft... if it isnt broken dont fix it? perhaps we can focus on something that is broken... like
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Cassiuss
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:43:00 -
[2211]
Boost the matari race!!!
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techzer0
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.27 03:47:00 -
[2212]
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Oh and do I get an all level 5 character to test stuff out on the test server? Also requesting the ability to spawn faction mwds, overdrives, and shaquils implant.
if not, I can't test a full snake set, or any ships other than zealot/crow, tech 2 rigs, or any of the game breaking stuff...
Get with it then!
Casual Vaga setup:
Quote: Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
I'd like to say as a Vaga pilot... That is NOT a "Casual Vaga setup" and stacking OD's with Aux Thrusters = dumb.
Yes, it's true.
I don't use snakes, and I don't use Aux thrusters with overdrives... stack much? ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar! |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:23:00 -
[2213]
Originally by: Masked Shopper Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36 IRC Battle Report
What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else
How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
You're using an IRC vs. PL fight report on the assumption that IRC should've won to justify your point.
IRC would've never won, regardless of shiptypes.
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Masked Shopper
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:28:00 -
[2214]
Originally by: Haakelen You're using an IRC vs. PL fight report on the assumption that IRC should've won to justify your point.
IRC would've never won, regardless of shiptypes.
I think IRC is a pretty cool alliance. eh sits supercap on stations and doesnt afraid of anything.
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Is forporn
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:29:00 -
[2215]
Originally by: Masked Shopper How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
Complete and utter disorginastion can kill any fleet
Join THE INTERNET. today |
Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:30:00 -
[2216]
Edited by: Straife on 27/07/2008 04:31:06
Originally by: Masked Shopper Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36 IRC Battle Report
What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else
How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
Hmm looking at the 4 losses (it was 5 really) where are all these uber speed mods at?
PS - It's still missing the IRC Drake and Anethema that they doomsdayed on the 2nd attempt.
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IUCEPH
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:32:00 -
[2217]
Quote: MWD's have become a necessity in any combat situation. Setups almost revolve around fitting them, limiting variety and unpredictability, and there is no clear advantage to fitting an afterburner over one.
The MWD has always been the limiting factor for all PvP fittings
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:34:00 -
[2218]
I think IRC is a pretty cool alliance. eh sits supercap on stations and doesnt afraid of anything.
In a Sov 4 system where no other caps can enter and a Titan in system to clear those pesky RR battleships that attempt to kill the capitals...
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Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:54:00 -
[2219]
Edited by: Shin Zu on 27/07/2008 04:54:30
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
6x 10km/s Rapiers 6x 10km/s Curses 8x 5km/s Ishtars 6x Falcons 6x 15km/s Vagabonds 3x 20km/s Crows
I know you said 12 ships, but I'm thinking like a nano gang here.
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Uncle Mo
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.27 04:57:00 -
[2220]
I am for this nano nerf. For those that are against it I have two words for you.
Nano Titan.
Nuff Said. --------------------------------------------- Official US ambassador to the UK.
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.27 05:10:00 -
[2221]
Originally by: Gragnor Spped is not the issue for small gang tactics. Alpha strike and high dps is.
A trulky guerilla fighting style has nothing to do with speed. Its about finding your target, smashing it quickly and then running away.
So, the nerfing of speed is not the issue. The issue is restoring the alpha strike to minnie ships to rtebalance the loss of speed. By all means reduce speed, giove me agility instead. Let me hit like a sledgehammer and then warp away in five seconds..... then who cares about speed.
I see a blob, I warp in smash the highest dps ship as I am aligning and as it dies I warp out.
I agree with this man and with the dev who said small gangs were effective long before nanos
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 05:13:00 -
[2222]
Edited by: Haakelen on 27/07/2008 05:13:09
Originally by: Uncle Mo I am for this nano nerf. For those that are against it I have two words for you.
Nano Titan.
Nuff Said.
When every use of a Titan results in 50+ caps dropping on it, and lag prevents Moms/Carriers from effectively being able to remote rep the Titan, what do you expect? People are not going to throw a 110B+ ISK ship around suicidally. They'll warp/cyno in, DD, and (try) turn back around too quick to get tackled by a HIC/dictor.
I don't particularly like Titan mechanics at all, but that's not the point. You want a linear eve where more ships always equals more success, regardless of organization and skill.
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Kovaos
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Posted - 2008.07.27 05:19:00 -
[2223]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 27/07/2008 05:13:09
Originally by: Uncle Mo I am for this nano nerf. For those that are against it I have two words for you.
Nano Titan.
Nuff Said.
When every use of a Titan results in 50+ caps dropping on it, and lag prevents Moms/Carriers from effectively being able to remote rep the Titan, what do you expect? People are not going to throw a 110B+ ISK ship around suicidally. They'll warp/cyno in, DD, and (try) turn back around too quick to get tackled by a HIC/dictor.
I don't particularly like Titan mechanics at all, but that's not the point. You want a linear eve where more ships always equals more success, regardless of organization and skill.
have you seen Elliot Manchild's nano titan?
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stormyfs911
Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.07.27 05:49:00 -
[2224]
Originally by: Shin Zu Edited by: Shin Zu on 27/07/2008 04:54:30
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
6x 10km/s Rapiers 6x 10km/s Curses 8x 5km/s Ishtars 6x Falcons 6x 15km/s Vagabonds 3x 20km/s Crows
I know you said 12 ships, but I'm thinking like a nano gang here.
Erm... 12 remote repping pulsegeddons?
oh wait.. forgot amarr sucked...
-----SIGGY TIME-----
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Gods Coldblood
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.07.27 05:54:00 -
[2225]
I'm really glad the nano drama is being looked at and hopfully resolved..
I am really concerned about this MWD Scram thing, as i fear the ripple effect on this will be huge.. I mean do you dev's that
come up with theses ideas, actually play the game? DO u think there are many ships that can afford to put a MWD and a AB on at
the same time? Do you think people will want to fly faction battleships in PVP after this comes into play? Are we know saying a
BS with rigs wont go faster than 1000m/s? Do you expect 0.0 pvp operation that include BS's to jump into a hostile system to
actually do it when theres a bubble on the gate with lots of AF and inties the other side (not to even mention titans, opps to
late)? How long does it take a BS with a AB to get out of a Large buble? ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Anxiety |
Waukesha
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:05:00 -
[2226]
Bad move CCP.
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Psyleste
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:07:00 -
[2227]
Edited by: Psyleste on 27/07/2008 06:13:02 Edited by: Psyleste on 27/07/2008 06:09:02
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
1 x 3km/s Rapier 2 x 2km/s Basaliks 2 x 2km/s Munnin 2 x 2km/s Zealot 2 x 1.5km/s Cerb 2 x 1.5km/s HICs 1 x Falcon
OR
1 Battleship with a Cap booster + Smartbomb
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:08:00 -
[2228]
wow lets make blobbing even more effective and enticing cos you know, theres not enough of it already
if this comes through quiting eve is likely
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:17:00 -
[2229]
Originally by: stagz
if this comes through quiting eve is likely
..your stuff...
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Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:18:00 -
[2230]
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
Originally by: stagz
if this comes through quiting eve is likely
..your stuff...
Give it to me, and if you could move it to Jita first that would save me some time, kthxbye
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:39:00 -
[2231]
Dear CCP,
if you really think you need this harsh nerf to nano setups please consider the following:
-Make sig radius actually matter on ships bigger then destroyers. Cause at the moment it doesnÆt. Check the price of halo sets to get an idea on how usefull they are at the moment.
-While youre at it, make relative speed actually matter. Cause at the moment it doesnÆt. Its all about breaking the magic 3,5km/s threshold.
-When you lower speed on ships cruiser size up overall, please have a look at tracking. Some of the amarr pulse laser ships are already scary for the slower nano setups. Lower speed overall means hardly any tracking issues and more damage. I mean you boosted the HP for a reason, didnÆt you ?
-DonÆt give the scram a second function just month after you introduced scripts. Make it a new mod or at least split the function via scripts. While the gallente recons certainly got hit hard with the damp nerf, there is no reason to give them 3 bonuses now.
-Fix defenders or give us a new module to reduce incoming missile damage after you killed the only way of doing this. Also see above (sig radius, relative speed)
-Now something people will certainly flame me for. If you really want to go through with this (crappy) speed nerf, do it the proper way. No billion ISK should allow you to buy something you call ôbreaking the engineö. DonÆt just move the entry bar to nanoing a few billion ISK higher (aka shuttle sell orders) To make it clear I will use the vaga as an example. ItÆs the HAC that is certainly comes closest to ôthis ship should be nanoedö. So either an all T2 speed fitted (with T1 rigs, perfect skills, hardwirings and before gang bonus) is breaking the 3,5 threshold or you nerf it all out and not even a faction, T2 rigs fitted Vaga with snakes should be able to ôbreak the engineö.
-Stay away from webs. How can you propose a speed nerf and on the other hand nerf one of the best ways (Curse is good at it as well, are you gonna nerf it too ?) to counter it. The Hyena, Rapier and the Huginn are great ships BECAUSE of nanos. Erasing them AND reducing the web effectiveness leaves the matari with 2 rather broken racial ewars (thatÆs not mentioning the broken racial advantage of speed /sig radius). Not only is there a greatly reduced need to web anything (which is not scrambling it you know, they can just warp off) but you force us to fit even more webs to achieve the same effect thus making it only less viable to fit our beloved target painters. Its funny (actually Im quite bitter about it) that you not only give away the racial ewar to other races T2 BS but that you also consider to boost their web strength but not the web strength of the 3 ships that are supposed to be the queens and kings of webbing. All in the need to cater even easier mission running.
-The Claymore is clearly designed for fast gang support. If you nerf nanos this ships is in desperate need for a redesign. ItÆs already the slowest part of any nano gang and its quite expensive to even get it fast enough. Do you really want even more static combat with Claymore pilots hugging the station or sitting AFK in a POS ?
It would be greatly appreciated if you would at least read and maybe even consider the above. These are no knee jerk reactions but thoughts after sleeping 2 nights over your lovely little Friday shocker.
Yours,
Damion Zyne
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:40:00 -
[2232]
Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 06:44:57
(for the tl;dr crowd, summary: the argument against nano nerf is based on the challenges presented to the nanopilot. this argument is rendered invalid by prevalence of nano setups and market demand for required hardware. If it were as fallible as one is led to believe, it would also be less mandatory a way of fitting one's ship.)
(additionally, the argument of 'i trained so long for this' is rendered invalid by the fact that in eve you train 'so long' for everything.)
--------------------------------- i guess what i meant to say is, this was the scene back when dual MWDs were about to be taken out of the game.
Things like boosters, rigs, implant sets and re-balancing of individual modules such as inertial stabs were introduced into the game gradually, in many cases entirely overlooking other parts that comprised the core of pvp.
they were never actually-balanced against weapon systems and most of the ways of dealing with inane speeds came as jury-rigged attempts at compensating for a tactic which is/was by and large superior to any other form of ship fitting below, and at times within the battlecruiser class. Quite simply, assuming your pilot is competent as something of a given, speed fitting is the one true holy way of setting up a ship that is anything below a BS. This is evidenced beyond the slightest doubt through market comparison of speed rigs in cost and availability as well as high-end speed modifications, implants and so forth.
Though it is an obvious, glaring balance issue, people often drop the logic of this argument entirely and move on to the next: "but its fun!", as they had in the days of dual-MWD, oversized AB and whatever else that let you do crazy shit at varying points in this game's storied history (insta-WFTPWN cruise missiles on frigates anyone? )
Lately the 'but its fun' argument has been retitled to 'but anything else leads to a blob!' which is ..a fallacy. For one thing, small scale combat happens in most situations not because you don't want to take more people along but because you don't have them. This is why people used to fly in gangs below 10 back in the day before snake implants or polycarbs existed. This is why they'll keep flying in such numbers after the fact, though one can only assume their setups will change somewhat.
It should also be pointed out that nanogangs don't limit themselves in size, although they are frequently limited in composition - only a handful out of eve's total ships are able to well perform in the ideal nano capacity. many of the ships that aren't have essentially been relegated to the noob category, which probably doesn't sit very well with the people who designed them in the first place. Still, you tend to see a pretty bleak picture when nanogangs come to slug it out with eachother - if the massive walls of vagabond/rapier/ishtar/ishtar/ishtar/vagabond/rook/rook/ falcon/rook/ishtar/huginn/zealot/ishtar don't indicate there being something a little off with the game, i honestly don't know what gives.
limiting of viable setups and chassis is something ccp has always been keenly aware of in trying to stamp out, and its something of a miracle that this has taken them so long to intervene in.
ultimately, crazy-speed's probem is not whether it requires skill, or brains or any of that bullshit - if it were too taxing, it wouldn't be anywhere as popular, widespread or in demand as it has become. The problem is that it became the one true effective solution to non-fleet combat, chiefly based on running away as fast as possible and not committing forces to battle.
there are lots of other problems with the game, lag, titans, etc.. but nanoships didn't really solve any of them, and correcting such errors on an individual basis would prevent the change from really affecting the big picture. all of these things have to be changed, preferably together and as soon as possible.
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Talyn Lyczac
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:41:00 -
[2233]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
i'll tell you what, let's exchange address and phone numbers and let neither of us hide behind this internet bullshit. k? oh? that's not what you meant? dont have the balls? give me your info and i promise to send you mine. that way we're at it men to men with a pair of balls each.
lets see who's the chicken shit now. no hiding behind spaceship avatars. like two real men.
^ Possibly the most homoerotic post in this entire thread
Thanks for the lols
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emllik
Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:11:00 -
[2234]
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
LOL no u just fail and are sick of being pwned by nano and dont know how to counter it you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. learn to fly.
and if all ccp are on about is limiting stupid speeds of above 10k a sec just put a bloody limit on the game and not let any ship go past 10k a sec problem solved. is it that hard ??
seriously CCP if u implement this be prepared for loss of subscribers u have to remember if it wasnt for us your jobs dont exist. look at the voting poll over 20 pages against this nerf only 8 pages for it.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:15:00 -
[2235]
Originally by: Mar vel Finally....
This kind of nerf I don't mind.
Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs) HIC's and the Infini-point.
-Mar
You are lol man. An crow will be fly 8k/s. If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s
If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u can use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected. U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit u with yor arty when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:17:00 -
[2236]
Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 07:17:27
Originally by: emllik
LOL no u just fail and are sick of being pwned by nano and dont know how to counter it you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. learn to fly.
seriously CCP if u implement this be prepared for loss of subscribers u have to remember if it wasnt for us your jobs dont exist.
a shining argument for the proposed changes. ...and quite possibly birth control.
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burek
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:17:00 -
[2237]
Edited by: burek on 27/07/2008 07:18:33 Ok, so the carebears that think they're pvpers in their carriers or when they have 100 of their bear friends with them in battleships are rejoicing and lapping up the "tears".
So are the other failures, constant victims and career noobs.
The sad thing is they have a reason to rejoice. During the past year it was suicidal entering 0.0 for a roam in anything but a nano ship. Not coz it was "the pwn overpoweredness" but a necessity to avoid hot drops, ludicrous blobs (yes, ludicrous).
I really don't care if you get offended when I call you failures, coz you are. When nothing can happen without the inevitable hotdrop or an outnumbering so ridiculous that it boggles the mind.
And to those bright sparks that are saying bring tanking ships...lol. Why? So you blob of idiots which couldn't beat any one of those players in slow ships solo or in pair or even threes, can finally feel good how they finally got the 5 evul bad man. And all 50 of them are uber now and can chestbeat and ridicule those stupid 5. For couple weeks, until the next uber gank. Please.
You blobers are the most pathetic creatures playing this game. |
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:44:00 -
[2238]
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 07:17:27
Originally by: emllik
LOL no u just fail and are sick of being pwned by nano and dont know how to counter it you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. learn to fly.
seriously CCP if u implement this be prepared for loss of subscribers u have to remember if it wasnt for us your jobs dont exist.
a shining argument for the proposed changes. ...and quite possibly birth control.
This.
Learn to scout. Learn to scan. Learn to adapt. Learn to take it easy hombre.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:47:00 -
[2239]
87 pages and still going strong!
and this shit hasnt even hit the test server.
Any bets on how big the threadnought is after the tests?
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:49:00 -
[2240]
Originally by: Cutesmile
If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected. U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.
indeed...medium artillery isn't supposed to hit frigates on close orbit. otherwise we could trash tracking completly. rapier got drones right? kill crow with small drones. your guns are made for long range combat against cruiser sized ships.
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Shin Zu
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:55:00 -
[2241]
Originally by: emllik
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Superb set of changes. Ignore the whiners, none of them have any idea what they are talking about.
LOL no u just fail and are sick of being pwned by nano and dont know how to counter it you are the one who does not know what you are talking about. learn to fly.
and if all ccp are on about is limiting stupid speeds of above 10k a sec just put a bloody limit on the game and not let any ship go past 10k a sec problem solved. is it that hard ??
seriously CCP if u implement this be prepared for loss of subscribers u have to remember if it wasnt for us your jobs dont exist. look at the voting poll over 20 pages against this nerf only 8 pages for it.
All of the nano pilots are on the forums voting and complaining because their toys are going to get hit with a nerfbat, most of the other people who are happy speed is going to get looked at are playing eve-online instead. A speed nerf has been expected for a long time now, its not like it was never going to happen. Most of you who think your subscription fees will change the minds of ccp are sorely mistaken, even if you quit, the game would appeal to another group of people who would sign up and join, there is also a lot of people who don't fly broken nano setups that have threatened to quit as a result of 15km/s cruiser gangs getting cheap thrills. I notice a lot of the people are using how old their characters are as a justification of why things should be done their way or they'll quit also, but back in 2003 I remember TQ would have 2000 players online at peak times, now TQ gets 30-40k online at a time, I don't think CCP is going to cater to the 2k over the other 38k they have gained since.
Another point is, most people who say they are going to quit, don't, 1 week later they are back in game because they have no e-fame anywhere else.
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D4rkF4lcon
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:59:00 -
[2242]
Originally by: Masked Shopper Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36 IRC Battle Report
What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else
How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
Look at dem nano fits.
kill 1
kill 2
nanoed poorly.
kill 3
Its a dictor you want it to go fast
You obviously looked closely at statistics and took your time to think your post through.
You probably noticed the polycarb but most of our combat ships are fitted for range and dmg with maybe one speed mod or rig thats about it. We dont go ludicrous speed its smart tactics that one us that fight and the ability to out maneuver guys in larger ships and manipulate their gang the way we want.
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Lorna V
Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:04:00 -
[2243]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel Finally....
This kind of nerf I don't mind.
Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs) HIC's and the Infini-point.
-Mar
You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s. If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s
If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected. U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.
uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.
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greeny knight
Amarr Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:05:00 -
[2244]
i think the mwd cutoff go not far enough still you can fire your mwd when you jump into a hostile camp with bubble , i wold like to see that the bubble getthe same mwd cutoff when in a bubble otherwhise its no use , also i found it funny that ccp thinks that the speed is only 4000m/s on a septor , he din't play the game for a long time i guess Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Brignoli
Caldari 7th Regimental Combat Team
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:05:00 -
[2245]
little question why does the nanos increasing v-max? and not only lower the time until the ship reaches v-max!
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:20:00 -
[2246]
Originally by: Lorna V
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel Finally....
This kind of nerf I don't mind.
Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs) HIC's and the Infini-point.
-Mar
You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s. If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s
If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected. U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.
uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.
And you lost your drones or killed someone them a fregatt will kill you right ?
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Lorna V
Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:29:00 -
[2247]
Originally by: stormyfs911
Originally by: Shin Zu Edited by: Shin Zu on 27/07/2008 04:54:30
Originally by: Mashie Saldana For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:
3 x 6km/s Rapiers 3 x 6km/s Curses 3 x 6km/s Ishtars 3 x Falcons
6x 10km/s Rapiers 6x 10km/s Curses 8x 5km/s Ishtars 6x Falcons 6x 15km/s Vagabonds 3x 20km/s Crows
I know you said 12 ships, but I'm thinking like a nano gang here.
Erm... 12 remote repping pulsegeddons?
oh wait.. forgot amarr sucked...
Well, except for those 3 falcons... Maybe 9 Pulse pocs and 3 falcons? Point is, nano-fleets aren't that hard to kill with the current game mechanics. Rapiers, curses, pulse-pocs (especially with ceptor support), anything with a heavy neut, sentry drones, even a couple of drone nav computers. Give the poor pilgrim it's rightful nos range, and that'll be one more. Can even stop the run back to gate with a couple of hics, and a few gang members willing to jump through to the other side for a friendly game of ping pong. Nanos were a problem until people figured out how to stop them. No help from CCP required for anyone who actually knows how to PVP.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:33:00 -
[2248]
Originally by: Masked Shopper Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36 IRC Battle Report
What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else
How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
Just saying, no HAC in the PL gang, save vagabonds, went over 4k/sec. IRC lost due to their own failure to produce more PvP skill then a blind infant.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:52:00 -
[2249]
Originally by: greeny knight i think the mwd cutoff go not far enough still you can fire your mwd when you jump into a hostile camp with bubble , i wold like to see that the bubble getthe same mwd cutoff when in a bubble otherwhise its no use , also i found it funny that ccp thinks that the speed is only 4000m/s on a septor , he din't play the game for a long time i guess
Lol, do you want the possebility to turn of jump gates completly as well to make you feel save in providence ???
Also, what has the world come to that I have to agree with Lorna.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.27 08:58:00 -
[2250]
This thread is rapidly devolving into semi-literate grunts and howls.
Hopefully that means the blind panic has passed for most... and that people are preparing to do some testing and see what the actual pros and cons will be for speed tanking with the changes.
Looking at the numbers my modest prediction is that proponents of speed tanking will discover they have over-reacted a bit, and that speed tanking is still effective and fun.
I also predict that many who are currently defending the changes due to wanting their particular play style to be completely superior to (as opposed to being in balance with) the speed tanking style of play will start complaining that the changes don't go far enough.
The goal is not for one side or the other to "win" this debate. The goal is for the various types of play to be unique unto themselves, dependent on entirely separate skill sets and tactics, and above all fun for the participants... ALL of the participants.
Both sides need to be heavily involved in the testing for this to happen.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:06:00 -
[2251]
Oh CCP, where has you gone?
Where is your famous risk/reward approach?
If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?
Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?
(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)
Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!
Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?
Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.
And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.
STOP making a WOW in space!!!
We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!
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Lorna V
Minmatar IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:07:00 -
[2252]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Lorna V
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel Finally....
This kind of nerf I don't mind.
Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs) HIC's and the Infini-point.
-Mar
You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s. If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s
If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected. U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.
uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.
And you lost your drones or killed someone them a fregatt will kill you right ?
Huginn would be fine w/o drones against a crow. Rapier, it depends on how close you let the crow get, and if he has a scram or not (to kill your mwd and prevent your escape or ability to keep him at a range your guns might track at). I agree it's ridiculous that there's a circumstance in which a crow could solo kill a rapier, but I can't think of many circumstances in which I'd be forced to solo fight a crow in a rapier w/o drones. Moreover, the crow also needs to know you have no drones to even want to attempt it. Add in the possibility of a few lucky hits, and I don't see many crows rolling the dice on it. But, the fact that a drone-less rapier would have to run from a crow is embarassing, and I agree with you in principle.
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maxx2020
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:20:00 -
[2253]
This nerf is too wide spectrum to be anywhere near fair. They should take small baby steps if they are going to make a nerf of this scale. Reduce things over a 1 year period and see how it goes, not just a HUGE nerf that affects every module people use right now. That is essentially stealing. People pay billions for mods that overnight become obsolete, at LEAST give them a freaking chance to lose the mods before the nerf happens. And implants, OMFG people pay an insane amount of ISK for those, and again, overnight poof worthless. CCP runs this game like a neighborhood kickball game, where rules change at the whim of the neighborhood bully. And not only are they making insanely huge changes, but they do it over a 5 hour "discussion" and start the ball rolling on such an rediculous nerf. Are all the CEOs at CCP kids? Is impulsiveness the defining character of every person at CCP? Once again, another shining example of why EVE sits at 35k players online at any one time, and other competitors have millions, or hundreds of thousands. It all boils down to stunts like this. People get tired of the CCP devs being idiots and move on. If this nerf goes live, I too will move on. And I sure hope thousands of players feel the same way I do, because it would be wonderful to hit CCP in the pocketbook. Maybe then they would listen.
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Mangold
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:20:00 -
[2254]
"Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. "
ROFL.
cyno jammers jump portals HP buff destructible station services with a gazillion hitpoints speed nerf #1 speed nerf #2
and know this.
I'm just waiting for a cloak nerf. The whiners will get that too someday.
Hello blob online.
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:26:00 -
[2255]
Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 09:27:41
Originally by: Gnulpie Oh CCP, where has you gone?
If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?
They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better!
....STOP making a WOW in space!!!
We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!
..pardon me, but this post seems to be afflicted with a mild case of schizophrenia. lets take it from the top.
first you ask that ccp underscore the performance of ships through the price of their fits. Normally money buys one rather diminishing returns with few exceptions - the amount of difference between a faction and an officer armour hardner, for example, is fairly minor in application, but the differences in price are staggering. When it comes to speed modifications, expensive setups offer multiplied magnitudes of effect through what is a nakedly obvious design oversight (the guy putting in the rigs didn't really consider the guy putting in the boosters, who didn't in turn consider the bloke fixing (in good faith, i must say) the inertial stabs from being a useless module. And i'm sure that fellow who thought up implant sets didn't quite consider how they'd effect everything else after the fact either. So whilst someone investing in, say, active tanking solutions will spend a similarly vast amount of money on upgrades, theirs afford them very little in, uh, roughly speaking performance per billion when you compare them with speed mods.
And they should be better. but not by vast orders of magnitude. the whole 'learn skills' logic offered by some protesters caves in on itself right at that point, betraying itself for the measure the good old boys with vast isk reserves use to own the noobs without. And although it yields nice ratios, it provides for some rather stale gameplay, which brings us to the next point!
Variety. Options. Well, nano fits have brought a rather interesting mentality to flying sub-battleship. Or more specifically, Fit Nano Or Else, You Noob - at least if you're in a serious pvp alliance. So much for options i suppose. you're right about one thing, though - we need big differences. And that is exactly why the proposed changes were conceived to begin with.
You're warning ccp against creating 'wow in space' in the same post you're using to advocate pimp gear as deciding factor in pvp.
oh, the irony..
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:32:00 -
[2256]
Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 09:35:35 Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 09:32:35
Originally by: maxx2020 This nerf is too wide spectrum to be anywhere near fair. They should take small baby steps if they are going to make a nerf of this scale.
mate, this is exactly the problem. small baby step changes are what has effed this game's balance up to the point we see today. different things being done without any coherent oversight, greater vision of combat mechanics and ships balance.
I say whole vast systems need to be changed simultaneously and with full understanding and consideration of one another - the local as means of intel, the scanning, the interface, the sov system, titans and cyno jammers, everything. Granted its a bit to take in as a matter of scope, but whole systems should be published, not ragtag tweaks and notches here and there - you do not have to be weaned off of this ridiculous oversight like some sort of a junkie.
ps: can i.. uh, well, you know the rest.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:32:00 -
[2257]
I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.
They die and they die fast and you donÆt need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:
The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnÆt commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.
I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donÆt matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.
Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...
Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:35:00 -
[2258]
Originally by: DeadDuck LSE Zealot
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Zhilan Alaioki
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:48:00 -
[2259]
Edited by: Zhilan Alaioki on 27/07/2008 09:51:23 I think the real problem with this patch will be that itll require a lot of secondary balancing to adjust the ships of all four races to the new situation, especially Minmatar, which are supposed to be hit and run ships and I hope CCP doesnt really want to kill off that tactic.
Will see how things go on monday, but I really don¦t want combat to slow down. Itd really be a pity if all that were left of EVE were remote repping gangs. They were already a good counter to nano ships, but at least you were able to run or outmaneuver them.
From CCPs track record though, I presume they won¦t bother looking at anything except the current changes and tweaking those to not ruin everything too much, which is good, it just isn¦t always enough. Some ships will need to have their bonuses adjusted and some changes made.
P.S.: To DeadDuck: And how will removing that entire range of fittings help variety? Youre not supposed to be able to easily chase down someone whose entire focus is fitting on speed. If that becomes possible, it will make combat in EVE very boring, because it will be blobbing all the way. Ive been on the receiving end of harassing intys and other nano ships a couple of times and it was always FUN.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:49:00 -
[2260]
Originally by: DeadDuck I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.
They die and they die fast and you don’t need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:
The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesn’t commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.
I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, I’ve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus don’t matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.
Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...
Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.
Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.
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Nafri
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 09:49:00 -
[2261]
this situation is not really new...
speed was always the best choice in pvp since they introduced proper tracking.
We have seen the dual mwd ravens, tripple mwd thoraxes (my favourite tbh) and oversized AB times. It is all around the problem that in Eve it is very hard to fight superior numbers with smaller numbers if your not able to break the fighter into a few smaller engagements.
if you consider how fighting a nano gang works, nothing has changed over the past few years. Eve was always about creating superior numbers in an engagement. Nano gangs try to lure singe ships out of the blob to kill them, or to catch ships trying to melt into the blob. Same thing was with dual mwd and oversized ab setups.
Even fleetbattles were party about it, warping out and in trying to catch a part of the enemy fleet and slowly grinding through the enemy numbers.
I think one big issue is still that blobbing up has no real negative effect for the blobber, there is still nothing which makes it desirable to come with fewer numbers into a fight. And the problem with fewer numbers is, especially in 0.0, when you choose not to nano, and the enemy notices that you cant really run away, he can just drop caps and stuff on you and your ****ed.
As long as you dont have to counter once specific shipclass with a special shipclass it wont work without speedtanking. For example, the only thing that protects a frigate from a carrier is its speed and the time needed for the carrier to lock the frigate. Once the frigate is is locked, and didnt manage to get out of range, it gets ****d by the carrier. No matter what the frigate tries...
I think the only semi balanced shipclass in this game are dreads, they are truely only usable to kill caps and POSes, in which they really shine, but a single dread can never kill a smaller ship with its guns (yeah, the moros is cheating with drone pwnage).
Anyway, I think without a radical change in combat mechanics, people will always try to speedtank to avoid getting hotdropped and outblobb. There is just no other way, and there has never been another way. Remote repping wont work anymore if the enemy is bringing in the caps, and has at least 10 IQ points.
Public Noobism
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:03:00 -
[2262]
Originally by: Gnulpie Oh CCP, where has you gone?
Where is your famous risk/reward approach?
If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?
Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?
(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)
Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!
Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?
Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.
And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.
STOP making a WOW in space!!!
We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!
Signed. If CCP would want to relieve the problem, would be enough reduction the MWD throttle 550% to 300% and polycarbon mass reduction bonus -15 to -5% or -10%. This two simple changes changing the nanoships speed over 50%. But no, those CCP guys want to change another stupid things, what the balance of the game would be crap. Skirmish modules and implants value changing but the others not ? And another stupid ideas 7.5km distruptor turned off the mwd-s. Lol How two go a slow plated ship in distance with 50% webs ? How to catch a ship on gate when he try to go back to gate ? The lag is the game bigger problem, but not fixing just they try to make always idiotic nerfs. Pls CCP workin on the real problems, the speed could be solved with two simple changes with his alteration, than I wrote it down early
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:06:00 -
[2263]
Originally by: Gnulpie Oh CCP, where has you gone?
Where is your famous risk/reward approach?
If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?
Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?
(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)
Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!
Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?
I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?
Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.
And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.
STOP making a WOW in space!!!
We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!
/signed
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:21:00 -
[2264]
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.
They die and they die fast and you donÆt need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:
The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnÆt commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.
I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donÆt matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.
Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...
Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.
Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.
Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.
With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.
What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.
Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:24:00 -
[2265]
Originally by: DeadDuck or BS are way faster then frigates
You spout this shit every thread.
A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:34:00 -
[2266]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: DeadDuck or BS are way faster then frigates
You spout this shit every thread.
A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.
They are edge cases, yes, but a living example of how speed is unbalanced. The 17 K was a limit case, but because of the game mechanics flaws, things like this are possibile. The same flaws work for cheaper setups and for a variety of other ships.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:36:00 -
[2267]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.
They die and they die fast and you don’t need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:
The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesn’t commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.
I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, I’ve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus don’t matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.
Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...
Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.
Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.
Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.
With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.
What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.
Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.
Well, I for one would be fine with a limit to speed. Mentioning extreme examples of nano fits dont lay the ground for a general nano nerf though. You answer fails to show where the variety comes from.
Also your point about relative speed is moot as long as relative speed hardly matters in PvP. As it stands now post nano nerf, there isnt the choice of gank, tank or speed. It will be gank or tank cause going 300m/s more will yield you nada.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:39:00 -
[2268]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.
They die and they die fast and you donÆt need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:
The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnÆt commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.
I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donÆt matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.
Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...
Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.
Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.
Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.
With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.
What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.
Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.
Just a question. U wanna use missiles do I take it well? U wanna hit nanos with missiles ? Neutralize it and u will hit them. Use ur brains or something. I understand it that u want make better on your life in game. But his changes coming all players want to fly with Drake or missile spammers ship. Those ship have no tank, no firepower unfitteable a vaga or rapier for tank, if they lost the speed they will be unuseable for fight, and the pilots will be fly with missile spammer ships. And u know missile spam = lag, without small PvP groups = blob = lag
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:40:00 -
[2269]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: DeadDuck or BS are way faster then frigates
You spout this shit every thread.
A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.
They are edge cases, yes, but a living example of how speed is unbalanced. The 17 K was a limit case, but because of the game mechanics flaws, things like this are possibile. The same flaws work for cheaper setups and for a variety of other ships.
Going by your standards (which I don't concede to, btw), removing snakes, heavily nerfing gang bonuses, modifying polys, and redoing drugs would fix shit. If anything should be done, that should be the extent of it. You, however, fall into a category of anti-nano whiners in this thread: Bitter vets who want to return to an age that is impossible with 35,000 people online during peak.
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:43:00 -
[2270]
Originally by: Haakelen You, however, fall into a category of anti-nano whiners in this thread: Bitter vets who want to return to an age that is impossible with 35,000 people online during peak.
evidently you're placing ccp into this category as well, with the obvious exception of them actually designing the game.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 10:46:00 -
[2271]
Because CCP is obviously most forward looking and non-myopic, see also cyno jammers, remote DD, passive shield tanks, jump bridges, and etc.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:02:00 -
[2272]
Originally by: DeadDuck Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.
With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.
What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.
Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.
1. I've put the setups in this thread in which T2 fitted inties costing 20m are be faster than T2 fitted vagabonds costing 200m.
2. I think few people here object to nerfing the 15-25kms ships. But that does not require a full overhaul.
If I could decide what would be ok changes, it would be nerfing HG snakes and Gisti MWDs, and maybe polycarbs a little. Everything else seems huge overkill to me and would make non-blob warfare in 0.0 that much harder.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:06:00 -
[2273]
Edited by: Malachon Draco on 27/07/2008 11:06:10
Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
Originally by: Haakelen You, however, fall into a category of anti-nano whiners in this thread: Bitter vets who want to return to an age that is impossible with 35,000 people online during peak.
evidently you're placing ccp into this category as well, with the obvious exception of them actually designing the game.
The CCP developers in this thread have shown a shocking lack of knowledge and understanding about the game when it comes to nanoships. I'd like to invite any Dev working on this to make a character on TQ and convo me to go on a nano-roam to see what its really like instead of theorycrafting on Sisi or with EFT.
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ZAJEBUJCA
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:20:00 -
[2274]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: DeadDuck or BS are way faster then frigates
You spout this shit every thread.
A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.
They are edge cases, yes, but a living example of how speed is unbalanced. The 17 K was a limit case, but because of the game mechanics flaws, things like this are possibile. The same flaws work for cheaper setups and for a variety of other ships.
Mate you have ceptors that aproach rapier at 120km hoping to kill it, it dies and then you say they struggle to catch nanohacs? My rapier is worth 400mil, my clone 200, and with that i go like 4200m/s in a rapier, if you have a lets say 5ceptors and they hope to catch me one by one, while they dont even have webs - it's not nanoships that are broken, it's lack of understanding of how to fight them. Get gistii b-type and polys on your ceptor and ur gonna catch nanoships without any problems(it's not like only vaga goes 4,3km/s+ without snakes/claymore and with that speed you go like 3,5m/s on orbit=well skilled missile pilot hits you with ease).
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Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:33:00 -
[2275]
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 27/07/2008 11:37:02
Originally by: ZAJEBUJCA Mate you have ceptors that aproach rapier at 120km hoping to kill it, it dies and then you say they struggle to catch nanohacs? My rapier is worth 400mil, my clone 200, and with that i go like 4200m/s in a rapier, if you have a lets say 5ceptors and they hope to catch me one by one, while they dont even have webs - it's not nanoships that are broken, it's lack of understanding of how to fight them. Get gistii b-type and polys on your ceptor and ur gonna catch nanoships without any problems(it's not like only vaga goes 4,3km/s+ without snakes/claymore and with that speed you go like 3,5m/s on orbit=well skilled missile pilot hits you with ease).
Worst example ever.
Did I already say that I love the changes and that CCP should implement them exactly as they are in the Blog?
Well they should.
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Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:38:00 -
[2276]
Spending billions of ISK for ship rigs and implants and expecting to have a "right" to win or survive is silly.
You characters skills and your own skills should count.
Why shouldn't ISK count? Because ATM its broken. Nano ships are only ones that have slightest chances or evading engagements, running away when stuff goes FUBAR, and tanking 99% damage.
Go ahead, spend billions for faction/officer stuff and implants and use a insane crazy omg tanked BS or CS, you will be caught, pinned down and killed far "easier" and "cheeper" than a multibillion nanoHAC.
CCP should have just tweak polycarbs and ODs, left snakes alone or gave them minor nerf, and waited to see how the rest of things work out. If its really necessary increase base speeds of most Minmatar ships to balance out the module nerf. Other races than Minmatar shouldnt speed tank on anything larger than a frig.
If they want for ships smaller than BS to have a role and not have a blobfest, they could: increase signature size difference between ship classes, and accordingly adjust gun sig resolutions, so that 100 million HAC can tank, and if it doesnt use WMD its sig radius is its main defense from BSes. Similar for smaller ships.
Tweek webs a bit, perhaps by giving them scripts. 75% @ 10km, 90% @ 6 or 8 km, 40 or 50% at 12 or 15km. Maybe have web efficiency decreased by looking at size class of ship using web and of the target (aka signature difference changing effectiveness, as was proposed by most sane people for NOS long ago)
Simply boost ABs. And increase MWD sig radius penalty (so that a HAC with MWD on takes full damage from BS guns, but very little damage with its "natural" sig)
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Selk Cantor
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:45:00 -
[2277]
I guess the Minmatar are doing well in factional warfare and must be nerfed. Once again the speed nerf will affect their bc and smaller the most. The real kicker comes with the web nerf, so now you can't hang up your speed ship for your recon. Hopefully the rapier/huginn will get a web -speed bonus upgrade to compensate.
I'll just fly something else if it comes down to it, but I wonder what the point is. The changes seem to make more ships non-viable for pvp, limiting the field of options even more, instead of expanding them.
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Syrinthal
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:47:00 -
[2278]
Just giving feedback and thoughts.
Too many (complex) changes in a single swipe - Any software dev will tell you to make small incremental changes for some extremely valid reasons, listen to reason. You dont just throw pages of code into a compiler and hope that what comes out on the other end is what your design spec said.
A clear cut line between patches - A patch is either a "nerf patch or a boost patch" in the CCP method of doing things, you have lost focus on fixing things by either saying you need to nerf or boost the idea but hardly ever look for an "external" method to fix it.
While I agree that there are a handfull of ships that do go far too fast for their own good, I dont think that your across the board tinkering will do anything more than annoy people, look at what ships and what tactics are being whined about and then look at fixing things. I would suggest perhaps actually trailing a few roaming nano gangs and watching with your own eyes what's happening, because it really looks like you are a bunch of guys who have been told to fix a problem, but understand very little about it, not saying I'm an expert - but saying spend some research time on the subject and speak to the people involved on both sides. Simple fixes are the best fixes.
Take your time.
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:48:00 -
[2279]
Originally by: Psyleste PS - Have you ever flown in a 6km/s Ishtar/Curse/Rapier? Requires HG snakes AND a full Faction fit AND polycarbs... So approximately 4.5 billion per ship x 9...
No, I'm the guy in a maxed out Claymore giving them that last 38.8% speed boost.
I used to fly a 6.5km/s pimp Sleipnir back when you could exploit the wing commander position and have a 1-man gang with full gang bonuses.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:48:00 -
[2280]
Originally by: Masked Shopper Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36 IRC Battle Report
What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else
How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now.
you are familiar ofc that "related kils" thingy on killboards doesn't show what really happened? qall of those kills are in a timeframe of at least one hour. sooo, ganking them one by one is not nano overpowerednes, but most of those victims stupidity of not following FC orders, jumping in while gates ware hot, undocking while station was camped and so on and so forth... --------- I want to phew phew
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:50:00 -
[2281]
Originally by: DeadDuck I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's,
Originally by: DeadDuck BS reaching 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's,
Originally by: DeadDuck 17K m/s, IÆve seen LSE Zealot's
Originally by: DeadDuck seen LSE Zealot's
Originally by: DeadDuck LSE Zealot's
What ?
My ares goes 7km/s with just t2, no implants, standard nav skills and no rigs.
That will take ALOT to get a HAC to, most likely pirate implants.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Usually people use snakes to free up low slots so they don't have to use speed mods there. this frees up spots for cap, damage and tank mods (Nano armor tank ishtar/zealot). You are grasping at straws here demanding harsh nerfs because of a few ever so rare cases. If you think this is abnormal, then we should nerf deadspace/officer HG crystal cnrs because the amount of dps they can tank is stupidly high compared to normal battleships. You see where I'm going?
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Yukisa
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:57:00 -
[2282]
Originally by: Dzajic Spending billions of ISK for ship rigs and implants and expecting to have a "right" to win or survive is silly.
You characters skills and your own skills should count.
Why shouldn't ISK count? Because ATM its broken. Nano ships are only ones that have slightest chances or evading engagements, running away when stuff goes FUBAR, and tanking 99% damage.
Go ahead, spend billions for faction/officer stuff and implants and use a insane crazy omg tanked BS or CS, you will be caught, pinned down and killed far "easier" and "cheeper" than a multibillion nanoHAC.
CCP should have just tweak polycarbs and ODs, left snakes alone or gave them minor nerf, and waited to see how the rest of things work out. If its really necessary increase base speeds of most Minmatar ships to balance out the module nerf. Other races than Minmatar shouldnt speed tank on anything larger than a frig.
If they want for ships smaller than BS to have a role and not have a blobfest, they could: increase signature size difference between ship classes, and accordingly adjust gun sig resolutions, so that 100 million HAC can tank, and if it doesnt use WMD its sig radius is its main defense from BSes. Similar for smaller ships.
Tweek webs a bit, perhaps by giving them scripts. 75% @ 10km, 90% @ 6 or 8 km, 40 or 50% at 12 or 15km. Maybe have web efficiency decreased by looking at size class of ship using web and of the target (aka signature difference changing effectiveness, as was proposed by most sane people for NOS long ago)
Simply boost ABs. And increase MWD sig radius penalty (so that a HAC with MWD on takes full damage from BS guns, but very little damage with its "natural" sig)
Brilliant ideas in here. Webs efficiency based on target mass is an awesome idea, heavier objects get affected more. Gives smaller ships a surviving chance against big ships.
This was my reply to another post on nanos.. thought id post it in here also if CCP happens to look at these threads.
"HACs have to nano to be competitive, since their tank is extremely weak and without speed they are very vulnerable to BS class fire. BS-turrets and missiles will destroy slow HACs.
I suggest a chance to cruiser and frig sized ship SIG Radius. Reduce it a lot so BS class weapons are less effective against them. A BS should not be able to counter its own class and all the smaller ship class as well. With the speed nerfs, light drones will own frigs of any type, and big weapons will own cruiser size targets.
Something like this..
HAC sig radius = 70 Cruiser = 60 Destroyer = 30 AF sig radius = 20 Other frigate sig = 15 Ceptor sig radius = 10
Changes to the frig class sig radius = They can evade a lot of fire from light drones (not all, just some to give them a "chance"), and take much less dmg from regular light/heavy missiles but still have a weakness against precision light/heavies. Destroyers = Their current sig is too large, and they get owned by cruiser/BCs/BS so much it aint funny. Cruiser/HACs = Take much less dmg from cruise missiles/torps and evade some fire from heavy drones and with good flying make them hard for BS turrets to hit.
The current system is too much "hit or miss" affair. You fly faster than drones/light missiles as a frig and they can't hurt you. You fly slower than them, and you die. There's no inbetween.
Speed and ship size should be a viable method of "tanking" via evasion. Otherwise it just leads to these class of ships being worthless and everyone going for "bigger is better". With the current nano, you go fast enough, you are invunerable to many weapons and have few counters. I understand why players do it, because with the current system in Eve, you have no chance as a frig/cruiser size ship if you are slow. The big ship have weapon systems that can counter smaller ships too effectively.
If it is CCP's intent to encourage mix fleets, then the sig reduction of frig/cruisers is required." |
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:59:00 -
[2283]
Edited by: Stab Wounds on 27/07/2008 11:59:54
Originally by: Haakelen Because CCP is obviously most forward looking and non-myopic, see also cyno jammers, remote DD, passive shield tanks, jump bridges, and etc.
I bet less than 1% of EVE in uses this stuff or knows about it. :::care:::
The changes are perfect and well thought out.
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Gar Ddhen
Gallente North Yorkshire Trading
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:00:00 -
[2284]
Originally by: Lord Darcy Edited by: Lord Darcy on 27/07/2008 00:30:15
Can anyone remember the Battleship HOOD. Looked like a battleship. Hit like a battleship short on guns, ran like a cruiser. Armor of a tin frigging can. Respects to its iconic crew and its lost souls but in a match against a real armored dreadnaught in went down very fast.
HMS Hood was an Admiral Class BattleCruiser not a battleships, and to my knowledge was the only one of Her Class completed.
Everything else was right though, she was fast, well armed, but had very thin upper deck armour plating. Its that which killed her as plunging shot from KMS Bismark penetrated the upper deck armour and blew Her magazine.
I am going to save any thoughts on the speed nerf till I have actually had a look at them all on SiSi to get a somewhat better idea of the new mechanics... so far most of it has been sheer speculation.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:20:00 -
[2285]
Edited by: Euriti on 27/07/2008 12:21:09
Originally by: Stab Wounds Edited by: Stab Wounds on 27/07/2008 11:59:54
Originally by: Haakelen Because CCP is obviously most forward looking and non-myopic, see also cyno jammers, remote DD, passive shield tanks, jump bridges, and etc.
I bet less than 1% of EVE in uses this stuff or knows about it. :::care:::
The changes are perfect and well thought out.
Stepped in to 0.0 before?
Most likely not. Here's my take on the whole thing.
This change is way too radical, it's too much at a time and will totally turn upside down on everything and how we're used to fighting making lots of sp, isk etc. useless. The nerf is a sledgehammer nerf. This is not what we want, it upsets people and they loose trust in CCP. What is needed is scalpel nerfs, one step at a time trying out things and changing back if it doesn't work. Currently i see nano speeds sub 5k (6k for vagabond) as acceptable. Above that and we're in the realm of ludicrous speed. Above that should be nerfed and I think the way this is being approached is very very wrong. Currently you have to get HG snakes and t2 rigs to get the vagabond to go 4k. This is stupid, about no one can afford that and it kills cruiser speedtanking in gang situations. Dont even try talking about AB under web because both you and I know that people focus fire and bring several webs so this is the end of cruiser speed tanking. In my oppinion there needs to be a way to nerf it so that speeds above 5-6k on HACs are severely limited but the average 3% rogue no snaked t2 fit polycarb hac stays about the same. There were no big problem with these average ones. They could be countered in oh so many ways. The problem are the ones who go in excess of 6k. then we start seeing a problem, then we start seeing the game engine breaking.
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Talis'har
Eternal Perseverance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:32:00 -
[2286]
Welcome to Eve online, it's a litter box game! Devs crap all over play styles they obviously don't understand (4k a second inty? lols).
The people who complain "you can only kill a nano with a nano!" see nothing wrong with "you can only kill a big battleship gang with a big battleship gang!" These people have obviously never bothered to train tech 2 sentry drones (which can track most nano cruisers and make them cry uncle).
This nerf is overkill, can't wait to see it on sisi. What I think is going to happen is anyone who wants to fly a 'nano' gang is going to need lots of pvp condoms (falcons) with them.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:32:00 -
[2287]
Little tip to the CCP guys:
If someone asks you if you are a god, you say YES!
If you're going to talk about how long you worked on something, say five WEEKS! Not five hours.
You take the wind out of your own sails saying stuff like that.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:40:00 -
[2288]
Training Reading Comprehension beyond level 1 should be a pre-req for Forum Warrior ...
1) CCP talked for five hours about the goals, not the implementation. A five hour meeting about "what do we actually want" ("what", not "how") is quite a lot of work. 2) The graphs they published (4km/s inty) are for ships with all skills to 5, 1mn MWD II, no modules, no implants, etc. 3) The 2x ODI II, 2x aux thruster vaga was a test setup to see how fast you can push a Vagabond (hint: After the change, that's the "max speed" stup, with the 4th module having 28% effectiveness; usually not done, but still "max speed").
Uh, sorry for the interruption, please go ahead.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:04:00 -
[2289]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Oh and do I get an all level 5 character to test stuff out on the test server? Also requesting the ability to spawn faction mwds, overdrives, and shaquils implant.
if not, I can't test a full snake set, or any ships other than zealot/crow, tech 2 rigs, or any of the game breaking stuff...
Get with it then!
Casual Vaga setup:
Quote: Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
I'd like to say as a Vaga pilot... That is NOT a "Casual Vaga setup" and stacking OD's with Aux Thrusters = dumb.
Yes, it's true.
I don't use snakes, and I don't use Aux thrusters with overdrives... stack much?
That's the joke buddy.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:39:00 -
[2290]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 13:03:08 Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 12:02:08 Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/07/2008 11:43:41 As I said in the thread about the translated version, this removes a blasterboat's ability to get in range (MWD deactivation) and stay in range (Web nerf).
They are further harmed by the fact that because they need the MWD and the MWD can be deactivated, because this compensates their target for the web nerf. A blasterboat which is locked down will be webbed and unable to MWD, making it very slow, while any target with an AB will be relatively free to move due to the less effective web.
I like the idea of reducing web effectiveness, and balancing speeds across the ship classes, that's a good idea. Don't kill blasterboats in the process though?
Having only encountered nano ships once or twice in game, I'd rather keep things the way they are than lose the only shiptype I'm properly skilled for.
This isn't so much a nano nerf as a <any ship which depends on speed in any way> nerf.
Crazy Idea: Let blasterboats be exempt from the warp scrambler effect, just as they are exempt from MWD cap reduction (with skills). They only ever use speed to fly toward the enemy anyway.
REad again. The MWD will be turned off by the 7.5 km scrambler not the 20 km disruptor. At 7 km the blaster bboat is already very close to its optimal range. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Lord Perdition
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:47:00 -
[2291]
Sad when ppl cant fit a ship properly and always die to nano ship. If those stupid carebears fit heavy neut instead of cloak and salvager, so theres no freakin chance to get killed.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:48:00 -
[2292]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Training Reading Comprehension beyond level 1 should be a pre-req for Forum Warrior ...
1) CCP talked for five hours about the goals, not the implementation. A five hour meeting about "what do we actually want" ("what", not "how") is quite a lot of work. 2) The graphs they published (4km/s inty) are for ships with all skills to 5, 1mn MWD II, no modules, no implants, etc. 3) The 2x ODI II, 2x aux thruster vaga was a test setup to see how fast you can push a Vagabond (hint: After the change, that's the "max speed" stup, with the 4th module having 28% effectiveness; usually not done, but still "max speed").
Uh, sorry for the interruption, please go ahead.
/thread
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:50:00 -
[2293]
Originally by: Dzajic Spending billions of ISK for ship rigs and implants and expecting to have a "right" to win or survive is silly.
Ever heard of risk/reward balance?
If I spent billions of isk for a fitting I should expect it to be at least a bit better and give me better chances, no?
And as comparison, a carrier costs (after insurance) what? 600 mil? But no one in their right mind says that one or two 20 mil ships should be able to kill a carrier - and for good reason they say so.
What is broken with high speed stuff? Battleships going 15+ km/sec, yes, that is quite strange. But then ... it all comes at costs. And if you kill such ships you inflict big damage.
And IF CCP really wants to slow down things, why don't they do it in a REASONABLE way? Why throwing all in a pot, stirr wildly around and pour the mess out into game then?
Do SMALL steps, EACH at a time. As some already said: either do a boost patch or a nerf patch. See what happens, the evaluate and proceed maybe with another change.
There are lots of variables: pills, overheat, t2 rigs, stacking penalties.
Ahh ****** what am I writing???! CCP won't read that anyway (knee jerk, eh? .|.), they just will do their own *** and ruin this once nice game.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:53:00 -
[2294]
People need to calm down a bit. Try to annalyse the whoel scenario and point issues and suggestions. Jsut screammign won't solve it.
This is a far better fix then the 25/33% enrf on EM resistance we had on previous "boost patch".
On genreral i like the ideas, but as some noted there are some issues. A vagabond pimped up should be able to run along a CHEAP interceptor. By simple concept, otherwise its speed bonus is worthless.
Also for god sake CHANGE the MWD overheat value. Its insane! That is the largest cause for beign so easy to escape combat nowadays. Reduce the MWD overheat bonus and you can not nerf so hard the other speed modules.
The values proposed on the speed modules are not acceptable. Simply check how much extra advatange a ship gets addign a single damage mod or a single hardener (20% and 55%), giving 10 % for a speed module is very far from "Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic."
The path on the changes is very good, just the values seems a bit exagerated for me. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar SHRIKE. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:00:00 -
[2295]
The Combat Upgrade and New Game Enhancements coming SOOON(tm!) to an EVE server near you...
Oh wait... didn't that kill SWG? ----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris
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Ivena Amethyst
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:06:00 -
[2296]
c'mon ppl keep it up and take it to that lucky page #100
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Fester Lemming
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:07:00 -
[2297]
Originally by: Gar Ddhen
Originally by: Lord Darcy Edited by: Lord Darcy on 27/07/2008 00:30:15
Can anyone remember the Battleship HOOD. Looked like a battleship. Hit like a battleship short on guns, ran like a cruiser. Armor of a tin frigging can. Respects to its iconic crew and its lost souls but in a match against a real armored dreadnaught in went down very fast.
HMS Hood was an Admiral Class BattleCruiser not a battleships, and to my knowledge was the only one of Her Class completed.
Everything else was right though, she was fast, well armed, but had very thin upper deck armour plating. Its that which killed her as plunging shot from KMS Bismark penetrated the upper deck armour and blew Her magazine.
I am going to save any thoughts on the speed nerf till I have actually had a look at them all on SiSi to get a somewhat better idea of the new mechanics... so far most of it has been sheer speculation.
Argh...real world comparisons. Anyway. the Hood was the UK's last commissioned battlecruiser and was commissioned way back in 1916 (double you, double you, eye). The real world equivalent of a T1 battlecruiser.
The Bismarck, on the other hand, was a full blown battleship, commissioned in 1936 (for WWII) and at least comparable to tier one BS. She was faster, had better range, electronics and far superior beer.
Tier three would be the Yamato/Musashi/Iowa's and T2 would be today's Missouris.
If we MUST compare real world.
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Psyleste
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:16:00 -
[2298]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Psyleste PS - Have you ever flown in a 6km/s Ishtar/Curse/Rapier? Requires HG snakes AND a full Faction fit AND polycarbs... So approximately 4.5 billion per ship x 9...
No, I'm the guy in a maxed out Claymore giving them that last 38.8% speed boost.
I used to fly a 6.5km/s pimp Sleipnir back when you could exploit the wing commander position and have a 1-man gang with full gang bonuses.
Well then your starting your premise on a speed setup for a gang that isn't in the gang... Fail.
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Nurse Killbunny
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:17:00 -
[2299]
Will anyone tally up yeas and nays on this forum? At a glance, it appears the majority of players for this change have non-pvp corps and those against it are pvp'ers.
I am against. I agree with the "new drake overlords" vision from xxxAngelxxx. FWIW, nano gangs have their place, if nothing else, to root ratters/miners and break through gate blobs. Every race shouldn't be the same and every ship class shouldn't do the same thing, like be slow and tank a lot.
And no, you can not have my stuff. I will hoard it forever.
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Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:19:00 -
[2300]
Originally by: Horeta a really really great change. cruiser sized ships should never reach frig sized speeds. roaming is not dead, only now normal ships have a chance against nanohacs.
All Level 5 skills
Vagabond:
2 Nanofiber Int. Str. II's - 3 Overdrive Inj. II's - MWD II - 2 Polycarbs - 6,754 M/S
Stiletto:
1 Nanofiber Int. Str. II - 2 Overdrive Inj II's - MWD II - 1 Aux Thruster I - 1 Polycarb - 7,697 M/S
So this old argument is a fallacy, unless you believe that a T1 frigate that a a new player can jump in before they've figured out how to warp should always be able to outrun the fastest of HACs.
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Von LundenBerg
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:26:00 -
[2301]
stiletto is a T2 frig
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Grim Vandal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:40:00 -
[2302]
The speed changes are OK for me
HOWEVER missiles are not
As long as I get full exp velocity dmg with an active afterburner even tho I am one shipsize smaller (eg. cruise missile against cruiser) something is wrong.
The problem here is that you have to find a solution whereby an Afterbuner fitted ship going full throttle takes as well less dmg like an mwd fitted ship going full throttle otherwise MISSILES become a NO BRAINER.
So in my opinion if you ccp guys try to make this change correct you have to change the missiles formula as well.
And should ALL precision missiles WTFOWN ANY ABING ship in this game forever??? pretty lame if you ask me.
Honestly precision missiles are totally overpowerd aganst afterburner ships while totally underpowered agaisnt mwding ships ... solve it ccp
At last I have to say, it was CCPs biggest mistake EVER was to make missiles a primary weapon for a race even tho you didnt know right from the start that your Destniy Engine is quite poor.
Greetings Grim |
Penguin Sandwich
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Posted - 2008.07.27 14:49:00 -
[2303]
Edited by: Penguin Sandwich on 27/07/2008 15:02:37
Originally by: Von LundenBerg stiletto is a T2 frig
[Executioner, PWND] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II [empty med slot]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I [empty rig slot]
7073m/s
Sit down pls. The progression of ship speeds is already in the game. Sure go ahead and make it so ships aren't going 10km/s, makes my gangs even more invincible.
Edit: That's got room for more speed and isn't the fastest t1 frig... Do the same thing with a Vigil and you get 7521m/s, add the last polycarb that fits and you hit 8152m/s.
Even using a Mach and t2 speed mods and polys like the original setups you can only reach 4571m/s (and that's with 3 polys, 5 nanos and 5 overdrives... stacking ftw)
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:11:00 -
[2304]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Training Reading Comprehension beyond level 1 should be a pre-req for Forum Warrior ...
1) CCP talked for five hours about the goals, not the implementation. A five hour meeting about "what do we actually want" ("what", not "how") is quite a lot of work. 2) The graphs they published (4km/s inty) are for ships with all skills to 5, 1mn MWD II, no modules, no implants, etc. 3) The 2x ODI II, 2x aux thruster vaga was a test setup to see how fast you can push a Vagabond (hint: After the change, that's the "max speed" stup, with the 4th module having 28% effectiveness; usually not done, but still "max speed").
Uh, sorry for the interruption, please go ahead.
who cares how long it took, one idiot Dev got his EFT out and blatantly stated he broke 4k/s with the new rules with T2 auxilary rigs and HIGH GRADE SNAKES. And please don't tell me that was a test of the full range of all the changes because your still missing some major nerfs thrown in for lulz... if that doesn't besmirch the entire lot of devs and their consistently idiotic and stupid comments about the game, you would have to be on their payroll. The simple fact that the previous dev said Eve was a turning into a twitch shooter was enough to make my blood boil.
Its clear the DEVs believe they know the game better than the players developing the tactics and want to take back the game and control the way we play in their image and imagination. This goes counter to everything that has been marketed about EVE since its inception.
THe changes aren't just about speed but a clear afront to the guerrila tactics used by fewer pilots to engage larger groups. Its a game and ment to be fun, but if the stupid people too lazy to figure out how to PVP in our world can just go whine and complain then there is nothing that will ever get done with the real problems with EVE. Too much is being given to the masses of morons who can barely undock without self-destructing themselves.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:24:00 -
[2305]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 27/07/2008 15:24:59 Edited by: J Kunjeh on 27/07/2008 15:24:32
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Its clear the DEVs believe they know the game better than the players developing the tactics and want to take back the game and control the way we play in their image and imagination. This goes counter to everything that has been marketed about EVE since its inception.
It's clear that a majority of the devs are every bit as much players of this game as they are creators. So given that, they DO know the game better than most of us.
As to the second part of your comment, remember, this game was created in the minds of CCP and it will continue to be that way, as it should.
Seriously, if you don't like the direction Eve is taking, either offer up constructive, level-headed feedback, or move on and go back to WOW or something.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:31:00 -
[2306]
Originally by: maxx2020 This nerf is too wide spectrum to be anywhere near fair. They should take small baby steps if they are going to make a nerf of this scale. Reduce things over a 1 year period and see how it goes, not just a HUGE nerf that affects every module people use right now. That is essentially stealing. People pay billions for mods that overnight become obsolete, at LEAST give them a freaking chance to lose the mods before the nerf happens. And implants, OMFG people pay an insane amount of ISK for those, and again, overnight poof worthless. CCP runs this game like a neighborhood kickball game, where rules change at the whim of the neighborhood bully. And not only are they making insanely huge changes, but they do it over a 5 hour "discussion" and start the ball rolling on such an rediculous nerf. Are all the CEOs at CCP kids? Is impulsiveness the defining character of every person at CCP? Once again, another shining example of why EVE sits at 35k players online at any one time, and other competitors have millions, or hundreds of thousands. It all boils down to stunts like this. People get tired of the CCP devs being idiots and move on. If this nerf goes live, I too will move on. And I sure hope thousands of players feel the same way I do, because it would be wonderful to hit CCP in the pocketbook. Maybe then they would listen.
Make sure to send me your stuff.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:33:00 -
[2307]
Quote: It's clear that a majority of the devs are every bit as much players of this game as they are creators. So given that, they DO know the game better than most of us.
Agreed !
My t2 casual Vaga flying self (with HG snake set) agrees with this post.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:46:00 -
[2308]
Edited by: Yaay on 27/07/2008 15:47:31 Why don't they just change webs to class size modules and rather than decrease speed, they increase mass artificially..... this would slow down warping ships, slow down mwd, make ship size/class matter more and solve a lot of the polycarb arguements.
If that alone sounds bad, maybe just add a new mod to do this, while lowering web % and upping it's range a bit.... Hell, maybe up the range of webs and make the 2 scripts do this, dunno.
Any sort of mass increase mod would deffo need a good range like 20-30km base. Could change painter bonus on rapiers to affect these mods too.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Spartac0
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 15:59:00 -
[2309]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Training Reading Comprehension beyond level 1 should be a pre-req for Forum Warrior ...
1) CCP talked for five hours about the goals, not the implementation. A five hour meeting about "what do we actually want" ("what", not "how") is quite a lot of work. 2) The graphs they published (4km/s inty) are for ships with all skills to 5, 1mn MWD II, no modules, no implants, etc. 3) The 2x ODI II, 2x aux thruster vaga was a test setup to see how fast you can push a Vagabond (hint: After the change, that's the "max speed" stup, with the 4th module having 28% effectiveness; usually not done, but still "max speed").
Uh, sorry for the interruption, please go ahead.
who cares how long it took, one idiot Dev got his EFT out and blatantly stated he broke 4k/s with the new rules with T2 auxilary rigs and HIGH GRADE SNAKES. And please don't tell me that was a test of the full range of all the changes because your still missing some major nerfs thrown in for lulz... if that doesn't besmirch the entire lot of devs and their consistently idiotic and stupid comments about the game, you would have to be on their payroll. The simple fact that the previous dev said Eve was a turning into a twitch shooter was enough to make my blood boil.
Its clear the DEVs believe they know the game better than the players developing the tactics and want to take back the game and control the way we play in their image and imagination. This goes counter to everything that has been marketed about EVE since its inception.
THe changes aren't just about speed but a clear afront to the guerrila tactics used by fewer pilots to engage larger groups. Its a game and ment to be fun, but if the stupid people too lazy to figure out how to PVP in our world can just go whine and complain then there is nothing that will ever get done with the real problems with EVE. Too much is being given to the masses of morons who can barely undock without self-destructing themselves.
spot on.
liaoliao520 > These foreigners killed you! ! Dry your mother! |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:06:00 -
[2310]
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 27/07/2008 15:47:31 Why don't they just change webs to class size modules and rather than decrease speed, they increase mass artificially..... this would slow down warping ships, slow down mwd, make ship size/class matter more and solve a lot of the polycarb arguements.
If that alone sounds bad, maybe just add a new mod to do this, while lowering web % and upping it's range a bit.... Hell, maybe up the range of webs and make the 2 scripts do this, dunno.
Any sort of mass increase mod would deffo need a good range like 20-30km base. Could change painter bonus on rapiers to affect these mods too.
that, like all other creative sugestions would requiered some creativity from the developers. This game stoped developing long time ago, and all there it is now is some houligan carebears swingling their nerf bats.
I am really interested what requierements CCP sets when hiring their developers and do they have a quality departmant that at least check their developers knowlage of the game itself before they give them roles for changing it. --------- I want to phew phew
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:10:00 -
[2311]
dont forget vaga isnt cap stable. Its cool to kill things with 250 dps with (!)3 gyro. Having cap for less than 1,5minute. Pulsing mwd so speed droping to preserve cap. Welcome reactivation delay. Minmatar race will be trashed as whle now. All good ships got narfed already. Welcome rupture/huricane only.
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Quartex
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:12:00 -
[2312]
As nerfs go this one has the right aims at least and as a result ships that are supposed to be fast will be faster than those that are not. This is a good thing.
It's true that small gang warfare as we know it will not work in the same way. "Everyone get in vagabonds and follow me" had its time as an effective and simple cta but will R.I.P.
It's still possible to avoid the Blobs with a better mixed gang, taking advantage of the strengths of different ship classes. Tbh a close knit, well practiced and balanced small team should run rings around a big fat lazy nul sec group who respond to any threat with an ill thought out Blob and bubble mix. So long as there's good intel and preparation in advance
Also, wtf with the sniper fleet stuck in bubble points? Don't jump Fleet through until you have a survivable ship on the other side taking a peek ..... there's at least 2 gates in every system and usually a way around the system in front of you. Don't scout in your sniper Bs
Blaster boats do need a look at, as it would be intrinsic in their design for them to be able to close quickly. Perhaps the classes special bonus(s) need to be re-thought, or a rethink of their slot use. The Dev said that some modules may change slot location, which may help.
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Show MetheMoney
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:16:00 -
[2313]
I've seen a faction fitted machariel catch up too an interceptor and smartbomb it to death, while it was funny to watch it does prove that the game is unbalanced in the speed department. Please slow down ships. As far as blobing goes, a military doesn't send 1 or 2 marines to fight they send the whole battalion. Nano ships are just "blobing" easy prey with speed so I really don't see a difference, please stop whining people.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:18:00 -
[2314]
Just one thing:
reduce range on ECM or bonus on falcons. Last time i said falcons were overpowered response was "they are easy to burn to and catch". Now instead of 10-15 seconds you need around 40 seconds to catch up with one. Its enough time to even align a freighter save HAC.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:21:00 -
[2315]
Originally by: Show MetheMoney I've seen a faction fitted machariel catch up too an interceptor and smartbomb it to death, while it was funny to watch it does prove that the game is unbalanced in the speed department. Please slow down ships. As far as blobing goes, a military doesn't send 1 or 2 marines to fight they send the whole battalion. Nano ships are just "blobing" easy prey with speed so I really don't see a difference, please stop whining people.
Marines also aren't fighting for shits and giggles for a few hours after they get off from work. They aren't flying internet spaceships going pew pew. They also have nothing to do with this discussion or balance in this game.
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DarkStorm1000
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:29:00 -
[2316]
Edited by: DarkStorm1000 on 27/07/2008 16:33:13 IT'S ABOUT TIME!!! WTG!!!! It has gotten so you can't get a decent fight in 0.0 now unless you can do 10k. I noticed it's mainly the abusers of this game, well "Hack" for loss of a better word are the main folks complaining....(uh Trimuverate) We will finally see some balance and get back to real fights that involve multiple ship classes and weapons rather than orbiting targets at ludicrous speed you can't lock before they hit full speed, can't hit, and who use drones for a kill because they are practically invincible. We can finally start targeting ships again rather than just their drones. WOO-HOO!!!
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:30:00 -
[2317]
Originally by: Show MetheMoney I've seen a faction fitted machariel catch up too an interceptor and smartbomb it to death, while it was funny to watch it does prove that the game is unbalanced in the speed department. Please slow down ships. As far as blobing goes, a military doesn't send 1 or 2 marines to fight they send the whole battalion. Nano ships are just "blobing" easy prey with speed so I really don't see a difference, please stop whining people.
A fully speed fitted mach can cost billions while a ceptor can cost 16-20 mil and only go 5k.
And most modern military's have highly skilled highly mobile elite units that are capable of taking out more numerous but less skilled opponents and then clearing out while taking few losses.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:31:00 -
[2318]
Originally by: DarkStorm1000 IT'S ABOUT TIME!!! WTG!!!! It has gotten so you can't get a decent fight in 0.0 now unless you can do 10k. I noticed it's mainly the abusers of this game, well "Hack" for loss of a better word are the main folks complaining. We will finally see some balance and get back to real fights that involve multiple ship classes and weapons rather than orbiting targets at ludicrous speed you can't hit, who use drones for a kill. We can finally start targeting ships again rather than just their drones. WOO-HOO!!!
multiple torp ravens,drakes,caracals,pulse apocs,pulse geddons?
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:31:00 -
[2319]
Originally by: Penguin Sandwich Edited by: Penguin Sandwich on 27/07/2008 15:02:37
Originally by: Von LundenBerg stiletto is a T2 frig
[Executioner, PWND] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II [empty med slot]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I [empty rig slot]
7073m/s ..
Just say it them. :D
Slasher with three polys 6870m/s. Atron 7048m/s Vigil 8152m/s
T1 frigate all.
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Exoterix
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:45:00 -
[2320]
Edited by: Exoterix on 27/07/2008 16:51:59 Edited by: Exoterix on 27/07/2008 16:49:52 Funny how when nano's would respond to complaints about their practical invincibility with "OMG WTF adapt n00b!!!"
Well rather than screeching like a pack of howler monkeys why don't ya'll take your own advice and OMFG WTF adapt n00b!!!
*Exoterix fits all his low slots with T2 thermic hardeners* |
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:19:00 -
[2321]
Anyone want to bet me ISK that when the AF buff comes out it has a role bonus for warp scrambler range bonus?
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Dapanman1
Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:20:00 -
[2322]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Anyone want to bet me ISK that when the AF buff comes out it has a role bonus for warp scrambler range bonus?
You mean...like an interceptor? Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:20:00 -
[2323]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 17:25:34
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Poly's are unbalanced and the vast majority of polycarbon legion agree with this statement.
No one has any issue with CCP brining polys in-line with T2 nanos; our contention is that this nerf takes things way too far.
Matrix Skye, member, state war academy, 9 months and 9 days.
Finally, a decent reply from PL that isn't insulting the whole of Eve! Your arguments are definitely open for debate, but as I said it's too late as all there ever was was the "nerf nano!" and the "don't nerf nano" camps. And I disagree with your statement that PL agreed nanos needed fixing. Just in this thread alone I can find a whole lot of your ******ed alliance mates defending their i-wins to death. and this without even hinting that the problem was ever the poly's.
most of the PL and tri comments (except for very few) are in the form of:
"YOU ALL SUCK. CCP SUCK! NANOS ARE FINE DONT CHANGE THEM YOU ARE ALL ******ED HA HA COS YOU CANT KILL ME BLAH BLAH BLAH!"
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:24:00 -
[2324]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Poly's are unbalanced and the vast majority of polycarbon legion agree with this statement.
No one has any issue with CCP brining polys in-line with T2 nanos; our contention is that this nerf takes things way too far.
Matrix Skye, member, state war academy, 9 months and 9 days.
Finally, a decent reply from PL that isn't insulting the whole of Eve! Your arguments are definitely open for debate, but as I said it's too late as all there ever was was the "nerf nano!" and the "don't nerf nanos" camps. And I disagree with your statement that PL disagreed nanos were overpowered. Just in this thread alone I can find a whole lot of your ******ed alliance mates defending their i-wins to death.
I'd like you to find a post from a PL member that says, "Nanos are perfectly balanced as they are".
I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen. ---
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Dapanman1
Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:25:00 -
[2325]
I'm curious if CCP thinks that the people who couldn't adapt to combat nanos will be able to adapt to combat nanos with these new mechanics. :irony: Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
Jessickah
Minmatar The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:27:00 -
[2326]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Poly's are unbalanced and the vast majority of polycarbon legion agree with this statement.
No one has any issue with CCP brining polys in-line with T2 nanos; our contention is that this nerf takes things way too far.
Matrix Skye, member, state war academy, 9 months and 9 days.
Finally, a decent reply from PL that isn't insulting the whole of Eve! Your arguments are definitely open for debate, but as I said it's too late as all there ever was was the "nerf nano!" and the "don't nerf nanos" camps. And I disagree with your statement that PL disagreed nanos were overpowered. Just in this thread alone I can find a whole lot of your ******ed alliance mates defending their i-wins to death.
Then why don't you try to read.
Dungar stated that Pandemic Legion (on the whole) agree that the polycarbon engine housing rig was overpowered and that we'd be more than happy for that to be brought into line.
Nowhere did he say that we felt the speed thing was balanced. It isn't balanced, however this extreme amount of change to one of the only viable forms of small gang and skirmish warfare is quite crippling and further goes to show that developers really don't play their game: they continually state that they want to stop "teh blob" but yet somehow keep managing to nerf the ability of small gangs to operate.
They should pick a small area of speed to focus on - such as the way the modules stack, and the overpowered-ness of Polycarbons, and go with that and then assess how it has affected it.
Unless they just want us to fly passive tanked drakes around because lets face it, a passive tanked drake will be able to fist a small hac gang on its own if they can't avoid his fire. Osh-.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:32:00 -
[2327]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth I'd like you to find a post from a PL member that says, "Nanos are perfectly balanced as they are".
if i go searching through all 90+ pages will you admit you were wrong when i find the PL ******ed whines? or will this become a "well, he didn't really mean that he was just angry..."?
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:33:00 -
[2328]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:37:00 -
[2329]
Edited by: Korinn on 27/07/2008 17:37:06
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth I'd like you to find a post from a PL member that says, "Nanos are perfectly balanced as they are".
if i go searching through all 90+ pages will you admit you were wrong when i find the PL ******ed whines? or will this become a "well, he didn't really mean that he was just angry..."?
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Hello Gneeznow
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:38:00 -
[2330]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
This.
Polys are overpowered
5-6k+ speeds are overpowered.
Below that they can be hit by rails/ACs/Pulses as I've demonstrated in some posts made 1,5 months ago. It is on an alt but that was because Euriti was banned for a pyramid quite -.-
Missiles not being able to hit is a different issue where I personally think missiles need attention but on the other hand they're one of the most versatile weapons currently and they dont have to do much range management.
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:45:00 -
[2331]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth I'd like you to find a post from a PL member that says, "Nanos are perfectly balanced as they are".
if i go searching through all 90+ pages will you admit you were wrong when i find the PL ******ed whines? or will this become a "well, he didn't really mean that he was just angry..."?
The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.
If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed. ---
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Kieselmeister
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:45:00 -
[2332]
Its just sad how badly so many people misread the blog...
first off... When fully HALF of the main weapons in the game (missiles, drones, blasters) are near useless against a widespread playstyle, and whole ship classes are unintentionally rendered obsolete, there is obviously an imbalance in the combat system. Whining about how missiles are for carebears, and how everyone else should have adapted to your exploiting of the error in the game design, isn't going to change the fact that the system is broken. Even a more modestly fitted nano ship will still only take puny fractions of damage from even specialized missiles
Secondly... The devs already tried the "SIMPLE FIXEZ" that keep getting spouted out by some you persons with impaired mental abilities, the blog clearly said that when they tried to raise the speeds of the missiles and drones it borked the game engine. Since they couldnt fix that, the only solution then was to limit the invulnerablity granting speeds to a very few ships. (I.E. the interceptors and minmatar speed ships.) Once they settled on this drastic solution, they didn't really have any other option than to revamp several systems at once...
Thirdly... Shut your ignorant dip****s faces about the five hour meeting... that is a LONG @$$ meeting! Thats longer than the SAT that I'm sure some of you only scored triple digits on.(*that would be 4 hour american standarized testing used by the college board for those of you not in the know)... Not to mention the fact that the meeting ONLY determined the SPEED GOALS! remember those? "*Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. * There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. * Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. * Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic."
They didn't even come up with the proposed changes untill AFTERWARDS. This has been in the works for months, and there have been rumors about it for a LONG time.
So PLEASE just shut your little pie holes if you don't have anything productive to say... its obvious that these changes are going to happen in one form or another, and the only thing that might change is the scale. Your vagabonds will STILL be faster without implants after the patch than Istars were before, at least according to the maths that have been shown in the thread, so skill training for minmatar speed ships WILL NOT be completely wasted... There is no massive across the board speed nerf, anthing smaller than a cruiser will get faster (inties stay nearly the same). AND MWDs are only going to be nerfed if you get within warp SCRAMBLER range... warp disruption does nothing... the meta level MWDs get their additional speed bonus replaced with less cap usage, which will probably make them easier to fit.
p.s. nano-gangs are NOT guerrilla warfare in ANY sense of the term... they much more closely resemble CAVALRY tactics.(think Attila vs romans) and in cavalry terms... your horses just got shot out from under you because ccp just invented the machine-gun... if you want guerrilla warfare, you should be looking at stealthbombers attacking resource gathering and covert-ops spaming local residents with propoganda, and probably a black ops to get them into the system.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:46:00 -
[2333]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque (look it up)
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:49:00 -
[2334]
Originally by: Kieselmeister
if you want guerrilla warfare, you should be looking at stealthbombers attacking resource gathering and covert-ops spaming local residents with propoganda, and probably a black ops to get them into the system.
It's so unfair when my ratting Raven gets killed by Recons or HACs. That shit is totally uncool.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:51:00 -
[2335]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Kieselmeister
if you want guerrilla warfare, you should be looking at stealthbombers attacking resource gathering and covert-ops spaming local residents with propoganda, and probably a black ops to get them into the system.
It's so unfair when my ratting Raven gets killed by Recons or HACs. That shit is totally uncool.
/sarcasm
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:53:00 -
[2336]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.
If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed.
But we dont know that yet. You're getting ahead of yourself here. CCP has given us the "paper". Now we need to test it out. CCP is only asking for the chance to test it. But you're going all nuts over it. I agree that speed needs to be an alternative and if this nerf destroys it (as you imply it will) then hell, yes it's wrong. The whole point is to bring it in line with other options such as shield and armor, which at the moment isn't.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:54:00 -
[2337]
Edited by: Euriti on 27/07/2008 17:55:24
Originally by: Kieselmeister to your exploiting of the error in the game design... (I.E. the interceptors and minmatar speed ships.).... p.s. nano-gangs are NOT guerrilla warfare in ANY sense of the term... they much more closely resemble CAVALRY tactics.(think Attila vs romans) and in cavalry terms... your horses just got shot out from under you because ccp just invented the machine-gun... if you want guerrilla warfare, you should be looking at stealthbombers attacking resource gathering and covert-ops spaming local residents with propoganda, and probably a black ops to get them into the system.
Quoted the parts that wrecked your credibility.
It's not exploits.
Even minmatar speed ships will be borked with these changes. You need t2 rigs and HG snakes, we're talking near 4b here, 4billion, enough to buy you a 15-20m sp character. The vagabond needs more than speed, it also needs agility and acceleration because it has to use every bit of the mwd bursts it does. You fail to realize that most of these nanoships have to slow down to do damage and the average nano is open to damage both with and without mwd on, atleast to ACs, pulses and railguns, weapons that all 4 races have bonuses for on their ships.
Second of all your version of guerrilla warfare was hilarious. Keep it comming.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:57:00 -
[2338]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.
If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed.
But we dont know that yet. You're getting ahead of yourself here. CCP has given us the "paper". Now we need to test it out. CCP is only asking for the chance to test it. But you're going all nuts over it. I agree that speed needs to be an alternative and if this nerf destroys it (as you imply it will) then hell, yes it's wrong. The whole point is to bring it in line with other options such as shield and armor, which at the moment isn't.
The impacts of this is impossible to test on sisi, you cannot mimmick the conditions that make people use these tactics. There are no jumpbridges, supercaps, titans, gatecamps, bubbles etc. on sisi that are mimmicking the 0.0 conditions on TQ. We're upset about what seems to be the death of the small gang warfare and it can't be tested before it hits TQ.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 17:58:00 -
[2339]
Originally by: Matrix Skye if i go searching through all 90+ pages will you admit you were wrong when i find the PL ******ed whines? or will this become a "well, he didn't really mean that he was just angry..."?
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.[/quote
IF you searched 90 pages of posts here i would then say you have 0 life.....
and i dont believe that you have friends...
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:00:00 -
[2340]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Well, lets say it this way: both of us have a discussion, sitting on a round table with 10 chairs, I'm occupying one chair, you get nine.
Now we have a topic, and you voice your opinion on each of your chairs while just putting another hat on, and after that tell me the majority on the table is on your side.
Or in other words, I have 4 free character slots on my accounts, I could go ahead and back up what I just said by creating a few forum warrior alts, but I dont think its necessary.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:01:00 -
[2341]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 27/07/2008 17:16:34
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 17:02:16 If the nano huggers would have been honest from the getgo and admitted nanos were overpowered and suggested reasonable changes then perhaps this wouldn't have come as such a shock. But even in this thread they continue to spout that their precious nanos aren't overpowered and how the world will end without them which I find ironic. If these ships aren't overpowered why all this fuzz and tears over them?
Poly's are unbalanced and the vast majority of polycarbon legion agree with this statement.
No one has any issue with CCP brining polys in-line with T2 nanos; our contention is that this nerf takes things way too far.
Matrix Skye, member, state war academy, 9 months and 9 days.
Amen. A nano nerf was overdue, but there are different degrees of nerfs available to CCP. This one goes too far. At the very least, it's too much stuff to be going in all at once. Put in a few changes at once, and see how that changes gameplay. The scramblers aren't a bad idea imo, but they need to be scripted. Imo scripts for webs would also be nice, allowing them to reach out to longer ranges at a lower % slow.
The problem is a lot of people see this issue as 'nerf or don't nerf', and are flaming because they think people against this change are saying don't nerf. Nerfing is fine, but you have to look at HOW they're nerfing it. We're saying "this nerf needs to be scaled back" and you're screaming "lol noob they should nerf it!". In short, you're missing the point Matrix.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:04:00 -
[2342]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque (look it up)
please use english so i can insult you properly....
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:05:00 -
[2343]
Originally by: Fester Lemming
Originally by: Gar Ddhen
Originally by: Lord Darcy Edited by: Lord Darcy on 27/07/2008 00:30:15
Can anyone remember the Battleship HOOD. Looked like a battleship. Hit like a battleship short on guns, ran like a cruiser. Armor of a tin frigging can. Respects to its iconic crew and its lost souls but in a match against a real armored dreadnaught in went down very fast.
HMS Hood was an Admiral Class BattleCruiser not a battleships, and to my knowledge was the only one of Her Class completed.
Everything else was right though, she was fast, well armed, but had very thin upper deck armour plating. Its that which killed her as plunging shot from KMS Bismark penetrated the upper deck armour and blew Her magazine.
I am going to save any thoughts on the speed nerf till I have actually had a look at them all on SiSi to get a somewhat better idea of the new mechanics... so far most of it has been sheer speculation.
Argh...real world comparisons. Anyway. the Hood was the UK's last commissioned battlecruiser and was commissioned way back in 1916 (double you, double you, eye). The real world equivalent of a T1 battlecruiser.
The Bismarck, on the other hand, was a full blown battleship, commissioned in 1936 (for WWII) and at least comparable to tier one BS. She was faster, had better range, electronics and far superior beer.
Tier three would be the Yamato/Musashi/Iowa's and T2 would be today's Missouris.
If we MUST compare real world.
aa sorry but have to say. The missouri IS an Iowa class BB buil during WW2! Its not a different class, they just ignored their skill in mjinmatar guns and specialized into caldari weaponry fitting cruise launchers on it. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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greeny knight
Amarr Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:05:00 -
[2344]
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Lol, do you want the possebility to turn of jump gates completly as well to make you feel save in providence ???
Also, what has the world come to that I have to agree with Lorna.
lol no i just whant to catch you ,without a nanofit ship so you can't run back tru the gate when you going down. o well back to titantraining i guess , i heard the doomsdaydevice catch nanos Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Dapanman1
Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:09:00 -
[2345]
Originally by: Euriti You fail to realize that most of these nanoships have to slow down to do damage and the average nano is open to damage both with and without mwd on, atleast to ACs, pulses and railguns, weapons that all 4 races have bonuses for on their ships.
This. Vagabond is doing <200 dps outside of web range and if it gets in a bad transversal for a second its dead. If anything, speed tanked ships have more counters than armor or shield tanked ships, frankly I'm not too worried when my Abaddon gets webbed... Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:09:00 -
[2346]
Quote: Thirdly... Shut your ignorant dip****s faces about the five hour meeting... that is a LONG @$$ meeting! Thats longer than the SAT that I'm sure some of you only scored triple digits on.(*that would be 4 hour american standarized testing used by the college board for those of you not in the know)... Not to mention the fact that the meeting ONLY determined the SPEED GOALS! remember those?
It's never a good sign when you find yourself having to explain your jokes eh? This post is pretty hilarious imo, you flame people's SAT scores (do insults get lamer), then explain your own SAT joke (lulz), and you do this in a post full of stupid flames and generalizations. You're obviously the mature intellectual here, eh?
And yes, I'm sure they spent more than 5 hours overall discussing this. You'd hope, eh? It just came across in their post that they spent about 5 hours on this, and so I (and several others) cracked a few jokes about that. Not the end of the world.
Regardless, I'm thinking they need to spend more time thinking on this. They should start by figuring out what the average Vaga pilot is flying, lol, which includes t2 (they got it right!) but does not include HG snakes (wrong answer).
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:11:00 -
[2347]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 18:13:03
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque (look it up)
please use english so i can insult you properly....
oh boy, the ******s
Copy and paste the term into a google search. Click perhaps on the first link that you get. Read and learn something new, ****** .
I'd do all this for you and just link it up, but perhaps I'll teach you how to look stuff up. it'll help you later on in life. No need to thank me.
edit: Nevermind. I just realized I'm dealing with monkeys here and you really won't learn anything. Just pretend like you understood, skip all that, and get straight to the insult .
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Dapanman1
Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:12:00 -
[2348]
You totally didn't see what he did there. Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:14:00 -
[2349]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg To the nano people:
Is there a point to bringing frigates, BC's, or BS's out with your nanogang? Why and why not? Would you ever bring one out for a small roaming gang?
Hey man we not speaking for frigates. T2 ships and BS go to crap. Blaster ships go to crap for this patch. Matar ships go to crap. (Hyena,Huginn,Rapier,Vagabond and Tempest worster BS in the game)
Allright i see, u will flying with Drake and u will be use missile spam and F1-F8 or u wanna kill with a crow a Huginn or Rapier.
in fact this will be a HUGE boost to the tempest! Since now it can again fight against other BS by using AB and the 7.5 km disruptor to once again keep harder hitting battleships away.
And no, this is COULD NOT BE a nerf to minmatar because minmatar nanoships are the less overpowered ones. Ishtars that can deal 100% of dps while nanoed and zealots keeping range at 40 km are the ones being hit harder.. The overal reduction on speed is a BOOSt to traditional kiting like the vagabond does. Since everyoen is slower its easier to keep range while cycling MWD on and off (you have more time to respond). But for that, CCP must scrap the idea of a delay on MWD activation, since that makes kiting too hard (or apply it only after you are hit by the scrambler).
The rapier and huggin yes, those are being nerfed, with web nerf and mostly with the reduction on the need of rapiers and huggins on gangs. On other side that might mean that you won't be primaried always when flying a rapier... so is not that bad. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:15:00 -
[2350]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 18:13:03
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Quote: I'd also like you to stop posting with an alt, but I doubt either are going to happen.
and how exactly an alt's point invalidated? there are way way too many ******ed children playing eve and i dont wish to bring unwanted childish grief and waste of time to my online friends. if you cant understand this too bad.
Because it shows you have exactly zero credibility, and likely don't know what you're talking about.
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque (look it up)
please use english so i can insult you properly....
oh boy, the ******s
Copy and paste the term into a google search. Click perhaps on the first link that you get. Read and learn something new, ****** .
I'd do all this for you and just link it up, but perhaps I'll teach you how to look stuff up. it'll help you later on in life. No need to thank me.
edit: Nevermind. I just realized I'm dealing with monkeys here and you really won't learn anything. Just pretend like you understood, skip all that, and get straight to the insult .
i think you just dont like me because im black.....
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:16:00 -
[2351]
Originally by: greeny knight
lol no i just whant to catch you ,without a nanofit ship so you can't run back tru the gate when you going down. o well back to titantraining i guess , i heard the doomsdaydevice catch nanos
Translation: I want a situation where it is enough to bring a BS-only gang, I dont want to care about tackle, nobody should be able to go past my camp without exploding, heck they should be unable to even enter my system.
Also buff bubbles already, they should disable mwd, decloak and web things as well. Besides they are way too small, needs to be 100km minimum.
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Dinamita Tona
Minmatar Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:17:00 -
[2352]
sugestion dont nerf speed like it was your idea, make limitations ship cant be more agile and have more speed than xxx m/s no matter what ship implants or bonuses has
for example polaris :P
max speed 7500 m/s
no matter what is fited and how much bonuses it have, it will never go faster than 7,5 km/s that will give more room for fitings change and not only speed speed speed
such limitations should be done for each and every ship and we would not have problem as it is ( not only nano gangs but also nano insta warp industrials, haulers ( not even so hated vagabond has such agility) ) nano ships would still exists but there will be not so extreme speeds
but
if needed make speed change from class to class and race to race IMHO dont change anything just ships max speed and agility
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:19:00 -
[2353]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:25:00 -
[2354]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:25:00 -
[2355]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Thankyou! Current ways to counter nano-boats:
Rapier Huginn Hyena One or two Large Energy Neutralisers on a Battleship Remote-repping Battleships ECM
They are not overpowered. The only people who think they are, is noobs/forum whiners who don't have a clue, and apparently now CCP.
I will probably unsub permanently if these changes go live. Way to ruin a game, CCP.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:27:00 -
[2356]
Originally by: Deros
Originally by: Shadowsword
...The nanoers will absolutely hate having to choose between MWD, Web, disruptor, scrambler, cap booster, and their lover shield extenders, tought. The day of the "fragile" speed tanker having 9k passive shield are coming to an end, it seems. Can't say it's a bad thing...
right, so you now will have a 'nano'ship in at 2k webbed, so doing 50-60% of its speed. already being hit by missiles, already being tracked by guns, with no HP buffer.
yes that shows exaclty the poitn. You expect to not be trackeable by guns and not reachable by missiles. After sayign somethign like that all the nano defenders should simply shut up and pay attention on how absolutely stupid that concept is. Havign REDUCED chance of beign hit is balanced.. being unhittable is not. simple...
On the people that say this wil boost blobs, open a thread and insert USEFULL, TOUGHT, and REALISTIC ideas of how to penalize blobbing. 2 wrongs don 't make 1 good.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:32:00 -
[2357]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 27/07/2008 18:33:16
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
Its not about them its about you they actually have a reason to be p*ssed as a massively popular for of pvp is being removed from the game (so much for ccp listening to its customers) you do not.
You do not even pvp yet you gain pleasure from a hugely popular form of pvp being removed from the game and the fact its ****ing off a lot of ppl and then you brag about gaining that pleasure. That pal is the sign of not only a very sick mind but also a very angry and bitter person.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:38:00 -
[2358]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
i refuse to believe that your an adult...
ps how are the belts?
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:51:00 -
[2359]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Also lol, while we're at it, lets nerf carriers and let them only field 5 drones
Ban broadband connections tbh, they are way overpowered. 56k will make for a much better game.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 18:53:00 -
[2360]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Its not about them its about you they actually have a reason to be p*ssed as a massively popular for of pvp is being removed from the game (so much for ccp listening to its customers) you do not.
You do not even pvp yet you gain pleasure from a hugely popular form of pvp being removed from the game and the fact its ****ing off a lot of ppl and then you brag about gaining that pleasure. That pal is the sign of not only a very sick mind but also a very angry and bitter person.
i do pvp. its just i'm sick and tired of confronting nothing but nanos and having them warp away unless i'm in a rapier or huginn. and if you're ****ed because of me personally, then BOOHOO! i'm glad i'm ruining your game, and yes, cry me a river, N00B! see? i can insult too now continue telling me how i suck and how sick i am from gaining pleasure from your misery. i'm glad y0ur ****3d!
|
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 18:54:00 -
[2361]
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
i refuse to believe that your an adult...
ps how are the belts?
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:56:00 -
[2362]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Its not about them its about you they actually have a reason to be p*ssed as a massively popular for of pvp is being removed from the game (so much for ccp listening to its customers) you do not.
You do not even pvp yet you gain pleasure from a hugely popular form of pvp being removed from the game and the fact its ****ing off a lot of ppl and then you brag about gaining that pleasure. That pal is the sign of not only a very sick mind but also a very angry and bitter person.
i do pvp. its just i'm sick and tired of confronting nothing but nanos and having them warp away unless i'm in a rapier or huginn. and if you're ****ed because of me personally, then BOOHOO! i'm glad i'm ruining your game, and yes, cry me a river, N00B! see? i can insult too now continue telling me how i suck and how sick i am from gaining pleasure from your misery. i'm glad y0ur ****3d!
Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:58:00 -
[2363]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Matrix Skye
"EVERYONE'S AN IDIOT EXCEPT ME AND MY NANO BUDDIES SO SUCK YOU!!!! WAAAH WAAAH WAAH!!!!"
cry some more please. i luv your tears. insult me! tell me how much you hate me and how stupid and idiotic i am. tell me how i've ruined your game and how it makes you want to quit :D
You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
i refuse to believe that your an adult...
ps how are the belts?
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:58:00 -
[2364]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
nah your just on hissy fit cos you gonna LOOOOSE BOY! and your the l1ar cos i have lots and lots and lots of kills my my alt... your just a n00b and cant find them i steall all your lunch moneyz! hahaha! go back to w0w!!1!
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 18:59:00 -
[2365]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
nah your just on hissy fit cos you gonna LOOOOSE BOY! and your the l1ar cos i have lots and lots and lots of kills my my alt... your just a n00b and cant find them i steall all your lunch moneyz! hahaha! go back to w0w!!1!
Drake is your favorite ship, C/D?
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:00:00 -
[2366]
Originally by: Dinamita Tona sugestion dont nerf speed like it was your idea, make limitations ship cant be more agile and have more speed than xxx m/s no matter what ship implants or bonuses has
for example polaris :P
max speed 7500 m/s
no matter what is fited and how much bonuses it have, it will never go faster than 7,5 km/s that will give more room for fitings change and not only speed speed speed
such limitations should be done for each and every ship and we would not have problem as it is ( not only nano gangs but also nano insta warp industrials, haulers ( not even so hated vagabond has such agility) ) nano ships would still exists but there will be not so extreme speeds
but
if needed make speed change from class to class and race to race IMHO dont change anything just ships max speed and agility
This is a much much much much better solution.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:00:00 -
[2367]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Also buff bubbles already, they should disable mwd, decloak and web things as well. Besides they are way too small, needs to be 100km minimum.
You forgot the part where they should also Neut and ECM.
My views and opinions probably represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:00:00 -
[2368]
Matrix Skye a fine example of a person and mind set of those who does not fly nano or even pvp's but still wants them nerfed.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:00:00 -
[2369]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews You do not even give a crap about nano or not you just gain a sick pleasure from seeing other ppl ****ed off. You are one of life's victims and failures that sees something that is ****ing off other ppl and so you try to find as much joy in there annoyance as possible. You are the most sickeningly pathetic and repulsive individual i have ever had experience with.
PS: i think this nerf is excessive but i do think the speed issue needs a look at.
if you act like an adult i'll treat you like an adult. check out the posts especially from the first few pages. most of what you read are insults and hatred messages to caldari players, etc. unfortunately the only way some of these idiots here understand is by degrading oneself to their level and speaking their hatred vitriol.
i refuse to believe that your an adult...
ps how are the belts?
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
i know iwas laffing at hem too cos he's a noob im glad you saw the irony on that too hahaha . but he not smart like you and me. we're smart he's idiot right?
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:01:00 -
[2370]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
nah your just on hissy fit cos you gonna LOOOOSE BOY! and your the l1ar cos i have lots and lots and lots of kills my my alt... your just a n00b and cant find them i steall all your lunch moneyz! hahaha! go back to w0w!!1!
proof or stfu.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:02:00 -
[2371]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
nah your just on hissy fit cos you gonna LOOOOSE BOY! and your the l1ar cos i have lots and lots and lots of kills my my alt... your just a n00b and cant find them i steall all your lunch moneyz! hahaha! go back to w0w!!1!
Drake is your favorite ship, C/D?
wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:03:00 -
[2372]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Another little gem of a comment lol, i love the way you say its you who are ruining my game. Your a noisy pitiful child with no power anywhere so is jumping on a band wagon to try to gain a little pleasure.
BTW your a liar cos if you had pvp'd you would have taken losses or got kills and i see none.
nah your just on hissy fit cos you gonna LOOOOSE BOY! and your the l1ar cos i have lots and lots and lots of kills my my alt... your just a n00b and cant find them i steall all your lunch moneyz! hahaha! go back to w0w!!1!
Drake is your favorite ship, C/D?
wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:03:00 -
[2373]
This is my claymore. It points at 40km with gang bonuses, and goes ~4.7k/sec tops before overload.
Yesterday, I used it in a skirmish fight against foundation - they were sat on a gate, we jump in, mwd off and engage. I stay within about 35km for most of the fight, orbiting on mwd to point stuff (didn't see at the time they had a HIC bubble on themselves cos i had effects off (FIX THIS CCP LOL)).
I decided to go over the logs today cos I realised I was taking quite a bit of damage even though I'm nanoed and was perma mwding (almost, I have a cap injector), to see what was causing me the most issues with damage. Over the course of 10 or so minutes of tackling I took 15k damage AFTER resists (enough to kill me had there not been a scimitar for shield support). The results, as analysed by the combat log analyser, show the shots fired, hits & misses (less useful for missiles because you can't see if someone fired a missile and it never hit), average DPS and total damage done to my precious claymore.
I've taken the liberty of highlighting the lines with which type of weapon systems the damage came from - drones, be it sentries, heavies or lights are highlighted in green, turrets in blue and missiles in red: Claymore Damage Taken Summary
Yes, I *know* it's just a single situation and it doesn't describe every engagement with a nanogang ever, but it is there to illustrate the point that contrary to what people say, missiles can, and DO infact hit "nano" ships for acceptable damage; I mean, all you have to do is look at the amount of damage done by some of the turret boats in the same time period to see that I took a lot more damage from missles and drones than I ever did from turrets.
I've never understood people whining about missiles with relation to speed; just because you see 0.0 damage shooting at rigged interceptors with t1 cruise doesn't mean your weapons system is totally useless against speed tankers
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:05:00 -
[2374]
Finally ,actually a bit late
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:07:00 -
[2375]
Originally by: Kieselmeister Its just sad how badly so many people misread the blog...
first off... When fully HALF of the main weapons in the game (missiles, drones, blasters) are near useless against a widespread playstyle, and whole ship classes are unintentionally rendered obsolete, there is obviously an imbalance in the combat system. Whining about how missiles are for carebears, and how everyone else should have adapted to your exploiting of the error in the game design, isn't going to change the fact that the system is broken. Even a more modestly fitted nano ship will still only take puny fractions of damage from even specialized missiles.
All of weapon systems are useless against ludicrous speeds, but missiles and drones are only weapons ship going that fast can use and still be untouchable. So, for most nano ships – they have to slow down either because of unsustainable cap or because they are not hitting anything, and then they also can be hit. So, they way they intend to fix problems you indicated here is plain wrong.
Originally by: Kieselmeister Secondly... The devs already tried the "SIMPLE FIXEZ" that keep getting spouted out by some you persons with impaired mental abilities, the blog clearly said that when they tried to raise the speeds of the missiles and drones it borked the game engine. Since they couldnt fix that, the only solution then was to limit the invulnerablity granting speeds to a very few ships. (I.E. the interceptors and minmatar speed ships.) Once they settled on this drastic solution, they didn't really have any other option than to revamp several systems at once... .
Have they tried simplest solution of all – fixing polies and maybe increasing a way overdrives and nonoes stack? Again, wrong way of fixing a simple thing, mostly because of it’s complexity and tons of consequences that are not considered in any way..
Originally by: Kieselmeister Thirdly... Shut your ignorant dip****s faces about the five hour meeting... that is a LONG @$$ meeting! Thats longer than the SAT that I'm sure some of you only scored triple digits on.(*that would be 4 hour american standarized testing used by the college board for those of you not in the know)... Not to mention the fact that the meeting ONLY determined the SPEED GOALS! remember those? .
Five hour meeting is nothing in the concept of game design, especially when they came with such wrong conclusions, even wrong starting ideas, which for a careful observer are more then obvious in the blog. Not to mention that changes they suggesting are recognised by the player base as problem creating, and none of those problems ware mentioned, so I can conclude they newer realised what will those changes imply. It’s laughable, for a person well paid to only think about how to improve a game to do such a bad and superficial job and write a blog about it…Last dude that have done exactly that was Zulupark.
Originally by: Kieselmeister 1. "*Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. 2. * There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes. 3. * Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a smaller specialized ship was intended for. 4. * Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. 5.Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic."
1.If you remove speed tanking from the game you kill entire way of play style. This play style is not unkillable, as some of you imply, it’s killable all right. But that would remove some ships from the game. Look what happened to interdictors – with speednerf that hit them their and introduction of HICs those paper made cans become obsolete, since they can’t survive without HG snakes against anything that looks at them in the wrong way. 2. there is, it’s just the thing that you don’t invest 4B in --------- I want to phew phew
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:10:00 -
[2376]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:11:37
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:11:00 -
[2377]
Someone in a 163 member corp flies a HAC? STOP THE MOTHER****ING PRESSES.
My views and opinions probably represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:12:00 -
[2378]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:11:37
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
A rapier and a dictor.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:12:00 -
[2379]
Matrix doesn't really believe these changes are a good idea, he just gets a hard on trolling you. _______________
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:14:00 -
[2380]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:16:00 -
[2381]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
lmao lmao steaml0ller tbh....
my prediction is you will have your imgainary "girlfriend" untill you turn a bit older and he becomes a real life boyfriend...
keep up the good job writing code, and ruining "my" game... lmao
you may change your attitude when u start getting hair in funny places, and voice lowers a bit...
ps i really really do appreciate your infinite life experiance, and infinite eve experiance (flying drakes) you have to understand though that alot of people against this change have lost more skillpoints forgeting to upgrade a clone, then you have total...
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:16:00 -
[2382]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:11:37
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
A rapier and a dictor.
no look again:
i counted around 5 nano pilots when i cross-referenced their names to their losses (fit with nanos). now of course you can always argue they werent fit nanos at the time of this kill and they were just vagas/ishtar/curse armor/shield tanked right
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:18:00 -
[2383]
Originally by: Jesse Jamess
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
lmao lmao steaml0ller tbh....
my prediction is you will have your imgainary "girlfriend" untill you turn a bit older and he becomes a real life boyfriend...
keep up the good job writing code, and ruining "my" game... lmao
you may change your attitude when u start getting hair in funny places, and voice lowers a bit...
ps i really really do appreciate your infinite life experiance, and infinite eve experiance (flying drakes) you have to understand though that alot of people against this change have lost more skillpoints forgeting to upgrade a clone, then you have total...
NO U!
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:18:00 -
[2384]
Edited by: Haakelen on 27/07/2008 19:20:53
Originally by: Matrix Skye and they were just vagas/ishtar/curse armor/shield tanked right
According to you those are perfectly reasonable fits which work just fine in the real world so why not
e:
Originally by: Matrix Skye when i cross-referenced their names to their losses
you must have a lot of free time
My views and opinions probably represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:19:00 -
[2385]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Matrix Skye and they were just vagas/ishtar/curse armor/shield tanked right
According to you those are perfectly reasonable fits which work just fine in the real world so why not
NO U!
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:19:00 -
[2386]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:11:37
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
A rapier and a dictor.
no look again:
i counted around 5 nano pilots when i cross-referenced their names to their losses (fit with nanos). now of course you can always argue they werent fit nanos at the time of this kill and they were just vagas/ishtar/curse armor/shield tanked right
Just say they were all Armour tanked or shield tanked are you saying that the result would have been different?.
er nope.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:21:00 -
[2387]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:11:37
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Matrix Skye wow how did you know? nano is your favorite right? (c/d?)
D
I don't fly nano.
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
A rapier and a dictor.
no look again:
i counted around 5 nano pilots when i cross-referenced their names to their losses (fit with nanos). now of course you can always argue they werent fit nanos at the time of this kill and they were just vagas/ishtar/curse armor/shield tanked right
I see following sniggwaffe ships
Sabre Caracal Caracal Rapier Claw Rifter Vexor Rifter Vigil Ares Falcon Stilleto.
I dont see any vagas/curses/ishtars on here.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:21:00 -
[2388]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Just say they were all Armour tanked or shield tanked are you saying that the result would have been different?.
er nope.
I'm sure the result would have not been different. But that isn't what i'm arguing now is it . You do a great job at switching topics when it comes to bite you. Keep it up.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:23:00 -
[2389]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Andnowthenews Just say they were all Armour tanked or shield tanked are you saying that the result would have been different?.
er nope.
I'm sure the result would have not been different. But that isn't what i'm arguing now is it . You do a great job at switching topics when it comes to bite you. Keep it up.
NO U
look mom i can use caps and act like an idiot as well
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:23:00 -
[2390]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:24:23
Originally by: Euriti I see following sniggwaffe ships
Sabre Caracal Caracal Rapier Claw Rifter Vexor Rifter Vigil Ares Falcon Stilleto.
I dont see any vagas/curses/ishtars on here.
oh boy i know you're just acting up but i'll tell you again:
look at your buddies' fits (Pandemic Legion's specifically). Are they nano pilots or not?
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Theodore Calvin
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:25:00 -
[2391]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
Less moaning people, more using your brain to adapt, it keeps things fun.
Victim: Theodore Calvin Name: Ravn Silverclaw (laid the final blow) (99 things to do before you die: *Get fragged by a friendly corp member* - Check) www.thearrow.co.uk |
Fester Lemming
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:25:00 -
[2392]
More *irrelevant* real life examples
from a random wiki hit on 'speed of anti-aircraft missile': "Sea Dart is a two-stage, 4.4 m long missile weighing 550 kg. It is launched using a drop-off Chow solid-fuelled (sic) booster that accelerates it to the supersonic speed necessary for the operation of the cruise motor, a Rolls-Royce (Bristol Aerojet) kerosene-fuelled Odin ramjet. This gives a cruise speed of over Mach 2.5, and unlike many rocket powered designs the cruise engine burns for the entire flight, giving excellent terminal manoeuvrability at extreme range. "
note speed of 2.5 mach
from another page of the SR-71: "The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is, to date, the fastest airplane ever to streak across the sky, even though it's more than 30 years old. Capable of speeds over 2200 miles per hour -- that's more than three times the speed of sound -- the SR-71 can fly at altitudes above 80,000 feet."
Actually, I think only 3x mach is conservative and there are fighters doing that now. My point is there is a place in this game for ships that can outrun missiles.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:26:00 -
[2393]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 19:24:23
Originally by: Euriti I see following sniggwaffe ships
Sabre Caracal Caracal Rapier Claw Rifter Vexor Rifter Vigil Ares Falcon Stilleto.
I dont see any vagas/curses/ishtars on here.
oh boy i know you're just acting up but i'll tell you again:
look at your buddies' fits (Pandemic Legion's specifically). Are they nano pilots or not?
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:27:00 -
[2394]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Also, rapier + huginn with crap webs? Well, at the very least you're consistent with the nerfs. Now you only need to make the neut-curse go to 20m/s when using it's neuts and all recons suck equally ;)
Uhh Falcon much? That thing will be flavour of the YEAR if this patch goes through.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:28:00 -
[2395]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Also, rapier + huginn with crap webs? Well, at the very least you're consistent with the nerfs. Now you only need to make the neut-curse go to 20m/s when using it's neuts and all recons suck equally ;)
Uhh Falcon much? That thing will be flavour of the YEAR if this patch goes through.
As if it isn't already. Soon it will be 'see who has more Falcons and can get enough Drakes to alpha the enemy's falcons so they get unjammed and can shoot the enemy's drakes'.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Rick Thwaites
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:30:00 -
[2396]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
THIS THIS THIS THIS --
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Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:31:00 -
[2397]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 17:57:01
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.
If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed.
But we dont know that yet. You're getting ahead of yourself here. CCP has given us the "paper". Now we need to test it out. CCP is only asking for the chance to test it. But you're going all nuts over it. I agree that speed needs to be an alternative and if this nerf destroys it (as you imply it will) then hell, yes it's wrong. The whole point is to bring it in line with other options such as shield and armor, which I suspect you agree. Wait and test it out THEN give feedback. But seriously, person to person, if I can give you one piece of advice it would be to keep the vocal ******ed monkeys from PL from talking. I'd suggest they allow you to speak for them, given that they don't seem capable of holding mature conversations.
Testing is irrelevant when CCP has already given us the results of any test we run - you can't break 4k without snakes. Missiles murder HACs under 4k. I don't need to get on Sisi to figure out for myself what CCP has already told us. ---
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Rick Thwaites
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:33:00 -
[2398]
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 17:57:01
Originally by: Dungar Loghoth The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.
If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed.
But we dont know that yet. You're getting ahead of yourself here. CCP has given us the "paper". Now we need to test it out. CCP is only asking for the chance to test it. But you're going all nuts over it. I agree that speed needs to be an alternative and if this nerf destroys it (as you imply it will) then hell, yes it's wrong. The whole point is to bring it in line with other options such as shield and armor, which I suspect you agree. Wait and test it out THEN give feedback. But seriously, person to person, if I can give you one piece of advice it would be to keep the vocal ******ed monkeys from PL from talking. I'd suggest they allow you to speak for them, given that they don't seem capable of holding mature conversations.
Testing is irrelevant when CCP has already given us the results of any test we run - you can't break 4k without snakes. Missiles murder HACs under 4k. I don't need to get on Sisi to figure out for myself what CCP has already told us.
Every gang will be Falcons/Drakes/Ravens.
Every one. --
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:33:00 -
[2399]
Originally by: Rick Thwaites
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
THIS THIS THIS THIS
Agreed less nerfs and more boosts. Instead of nerfing every thing just add a few more counters. Oh but nerf polycarbs those things are imba
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:35:00 -
[2400]
Originally by: Dapanman1
Originally by: Marlona Sky Anyone want to bet me ISK that when the AF buff comes out it has a role bonus for warp scrambler range bonus?
You mean...like an interceptor?
Let me clarify.
They post-poned the AF buff because they wanted to give it a roll in pvp. True 4 interceptors currently get a range bonus to warp disruptors and warp scramblers. Now that this new affect on scramblers to disable mwds will be coming out what are the odds that CCP takes away the range bonus for warp scramblers from those 4 interceptors and gives it to some AF's. After a few other tweaks to the ship class and a new role bonus like that, it would make flying the ship class in pvp worth doing. Enough of a bonus to put the ship out of normal web range or something.
Anyways, just wondering if CCP would to do something like that.
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Fester Lemming
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:37:00 -
[2401]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Fester Lemming
Originally by: Gar Ddhen
Originally by: Lord Darcy Edited by: Lord Darcy on 27/07/2008 00:30:15
Can anyone remember the Battleship HOOD. Looked like a battleship. Hit like a battleship short on guns, ran like a cruiser. Armor of a tin frigging can. Respects to its iconic crew and its lost souls but in a match against a real armored dreadnaught in went down very fast.
HMS Hood was an Admiral Class BattleCruiser not a battleships, and to my knowledge was the only one of Her Class completed.
Everything else was right though, she was fast, well armed, but had very thin upper deck armour plating. Its that which killed her as plunging shot from KMS Bismark penetrated the upper deck armour and blew Her magazine.
I am going to save any thoughts on the speed nerf till I have actually had a look at them all on SiSi to get a somewhat better idea of the new mechanics... so far most of it has been sheer speculation.
Argh...real world comparisons. Anyway. the Hood was the UK's last commissioned battlecruiser and was commissioned way back in 1916 (double you, double you, eye). The real world equivalent of a T1 battlecruiser.
The Bismarck, on the other hand, was a full blown battleship, commissioned in 1936 (for WWII) and at least comparable to tier one BS. She was faster, had better range, electronics and far superior beer.
Tier three would be the Yamato/Musashi/Iowa's and T2 would be today's Missouris.
If we MUST compare real world.
aa sorry but have to say. The missouri IS an Iowa class BB buil during WW2! Its not a different class, they just ignored their skill in mjinmatar guns and specialized into caldari weaponry fitting cruise launchers on it.
Your point is somewhat valid but aren't t2 variants built on the same hull? The Misso is built on the same hull as the wwii version, making it a poster T2 ship, that is, T2 with improved electronics and resists. The compromise being the caldari / minmatar weaponry combination making it some sort of T2 mutant child.
Who knows, this faction warfare stuff might lead to more hybrids ships with combo features once thought to be exclusive to one particular race. Those little friggies with dual race bonuses for example.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:39:00 -
[2402]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 27/07/2008 19:43:00
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Just one thing:
reduce range on ECM or bonus on falcons. Last time i said falcons were overpowered response was "they are easy to burn to and catch". Now instead of 10-15 seconds you need around 40 seconds to catch up with one. Its enough time to even align a freighter save HAC.
3-4 ceptors will solve the problem of the jamming falcon.
3-4 ceptors will easily get permajammed. And im talking about killing him not forcing to hop from one 200km spot to another 200km spot.
EDIT: plus you are still looking from "we have more people than they have so can easily throw 3-4 ships per one enemy ship" point of view. Not everyone likes to blob ya know?
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:41:00 -
[2403]
Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
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Rick Thwaites
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:44:00 -
[2404]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Just one thing:
reduce range on ECM or bonus on falcons. Last time i said falcons were overpowered response was "they are easy to burn to and catch". Now instead of 10-15 seconds you need around 40 seconds to catch up with one. Its enough time to even align a freighter save HAC.
Great idea - solve a nerf problem with a nerf.
Turtles all the way down. --
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:44:00 -
[2405]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Matrix Skye
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.
almost all those ships are nanoships, wtf are you on?
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:44:00 -
[2406]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Just one thing:
reduce range on ECM or bonus on falcons. Last time i said falcons were overpowered response was "they are easy to burn to and catch". Now instead of 10-15 seconds you need around 40 seconds to catch up with one. Its enough time to even align a freighter save HAC.
3-4 ceptors will solve the problem of the jamming falcon.
3-4 ceptors will easily get permajammed. And im talking about killing him not forcing to hop from one 200km spot to another 200km spot.
Any ship can sit out at range and warp out if summat heads toward it the falcon is no different so why nerf its only use?.
Is somebody bitter about getting perma jammed?.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:46:00 -
[2407]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Matrix Skye
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.
almost all those ships are nanoships, wtf are you on?
Do you know how PL operates?
Obviously not.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:50:00 -
[2408]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 27/07/2008 19:51:31
Originally by: Alkie Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.
T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.
Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike
Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?
Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.
Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.
Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.
Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.
The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.
Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.
Quoting for great truth. I was actually all set up for cross-training into Gallente because the Minmatar BS are average to crap. Also I like the Ishtar. Now... I won't bother. I also won't bother paying for this game anymore.
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:53:00 -
[2409]
Edited by: Kira Novia on 27/07/2008 19:54:23
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 27/07/2008 19:51:31
Originally by: Alkie Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.
T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.
Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike
Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?
Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.
Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.
Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.
Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.
The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.
Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.
Quoting for great truth. I was actually all set up for cross-training into Gallente because the Minmatar BS are average to crap. Also I like the Ishtar. Now... I won't bother. I also won't bother paying for this game anymore.
Quoted for quoting a quote of truth.
CCP effectively kills the Gallente blaster boats with this nerf.
CCP screws Minmatar even more.
CCP, I am so very close to telling you to shove this game. It's been a fun ride. But if you're going to kill it to this extreme, there's no point in playing anymore.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:54:00 -
[2410]
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:56:00 -
[2411]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
You've got to be shitting me?
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:56:00 -
[2412]
Edited by: Haakelen on 27/07/2008 19:57:31 Because a weapon system with zero tracking, perfect hits every time, impossible to outrun (if this shit goes through), selectable damage type, with no gradient between ranges is not at all overpowered.
Missiles are now the perfect weapon for every single situation. ECM will continue to be the only effective Ewar. Passive shield tanks.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:57:00 -
[2413]
Edited by: Stab Wounds on 27/07/2008 19:59:08
Originally by: Kira Novia Edited by: Kira Novia on 27/07/2008 19:54:23
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 27/07/2008 19:51:31
Originally by: Alkie Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.
T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.
Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike
Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?
Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.
Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.
Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.
Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.
The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.
Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.
Quoting for great truth. I was actually all set up for cross-training into Gallente because the Minmatar BS are average to crap. Also I like the Ishtar. Now... I won't bother. I also won't bother paying for this game anymore.
Quoted for quoting a quote of truth.
CCP effectively kills the Gallente blaster boats with this nerf.
CCP screws Minmatar even more.
CCP, I am so very close to telling you to shove this game. It's been a fun ride. But if you're going to kill it to this extreme, there's no point in playing anymore.
Bolded the MAJOR FLAW in your worthless whine. QQ more. Get a fleet it's an MMO with PVE not a single player shoot 'em up
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:57:00 -
[2414]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 27/07/2008 19:57:44
Originally by: Dracorimus Bullshit
Deep Core Mining. Hmm, maybe I should do this with every NPC corp or FW noob in this thread. Don't talk shit about complex mechanics and tactics that you have no understanding of.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:58:00 -
[2415]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
You've got to be shitting me?
I'm not. You gallente *****s also get a secondary damage system (large drone bay with damage bonus to drones) for more dps.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 19:59:00 -
[2416]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
If you don't have 40 Drakes and 10 Falcons you should lose in PvP, every time.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Dungar Loghoth
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:00:00 -
[2417]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Matrix Skye
yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them. that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .
btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:
Linkage
Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.
almost all those ships are nanoships, wtf are you on?
Do you know how PL operates?
Obviously not.
People have repeated the Polycarbon Legion shit so much that it's all we're known for. Let them keep thinking that all we do is nano. ---
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:00:00 -
[2418]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
You've got to be shitting me?
I'm not. You gallente *****s also get a secondary damage system (large drone bay with damage bonus to drones) for more dps.
Abyssmal range, shit tracking, not the fastest ships for closing gaps.
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Kira Novia
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:01:00 -
[2419]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
That's a load of crap. Caldari need a BOOST to be in line with the other races. Please stop. You sound like a noob.
The point is, my Astarte with blasters has, with antimatter loaded, what, 5Km range roughly? Not sure, I'd have to look.
Unless I can hold your Drake still, I can't kill you.
With the mwd+web nerf, we're screwed.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:03:00 -
[2420]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
I'm not. You gallente *****s also get a secondary damage system (large drone bay with damage bonus to drones) for more dps.
right so the thorax is then now supposed to be a vexor with no damage bonus, no spare drones, and turrets it might get to use to slight effect if it managed to warp directly on top of its enemy? that's great
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:20:00 -
[2421]
Originally by: Yukisa You devs need to ask yourself a vital question and come to understand the game before you try to balance it...
1. What was the intention of the MWD as a module when it was designed and implemented?
Was it intended to be a module to quickly close the gap for short range ships, a quick short burst to escape or rather a constant super high speed as it turned to be?
Looking back at the implementation it suggested that the MWD was designed primarily for short burst of high speed as it was never meant to be sustainable. However, it didn't work out this way..
When it became sustainable it obsoleted AB. Thats when game balance went downhill and you guys failed to see it coming, especially when snake implants, command ship mods that boost speed, and even boosters were added in patches. This irritated many when CCP acknowledge ships flew too fast then added poly rigs...
Now let us go back to the original design concept of MWD. Instead of changing all the multitude of factors that now make it stupidly out of balance, simply go back and make MWD work in short bursts of speed, not sustained. i.e. Low duration, long reactivation. Then buff afterburners. They were always too slow. The changes suggested will hurt AB as well as speed is much less with MWD or AB.
A major problem for small ships is their extreme weakness vs light/heavy missiles and scout drones. It's either a hit or miss affair, you either go fast and evade it, or you die. Light missiles rarely occur on big targets so it isn't as big a concern, but almost all big ships have room for light drones. This makes them too effective as an anti-light platform when their role is to be anti-heavy. Think about this point over and you will understand there are many more changes required if you truly want to rebalance speed in Eve.
A few suggestions:
1. MWD returned to its short burst-high-speed usage. 10s duration, 60s re-activation timer. 2. AB speed is increased. The % increase can be tested to get the right amount. Basically the AB is the module of choice for dog fights while the MWD is for those wanting gap closing bursts or quick evasion, not constant evasion. 3. Lower sig radius of small ships so they can avoid some drone fire and lower light missile explosion velocity. (Speed and size is a defense, not a do or die mechanism with a threshold one can exceed to be invulnerable)
Very reasonable suggestions, apart from number one which is a bit ott. Maybe 30 seconds reactivation. Of course I would prefer none of this to happen, but hey.
Imo the ONLY thing that needs to be nerfed wrt speed is polycarbon rigs, to bring them in line with the other rigs/module equivalents. Faction mods, T2 rigs and pirate implants are not a problem because they are horrendously expensive and thus only a TINY minority of pilots use them.
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Kira Novia
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:21:00 -
[2422]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 27/07/2008 20:19:40 The more I ponder this pile of bullshit, the more I'm starting to believe that CCP saw the state of FW (Shitty, terrible homogenous fleets, awful setups, FCs with their heads up their asses, Mexican standoffs, etc), and thought it would be awesome if all PvP was like that.
That's why I didn't partake in Factional Warfare. I knew that's exactly what it would be.
CCP, do you have -any ****ing idea- what this is going to do the game?
You might as well stick a fork in it. It's done.
You go through with this, Eve is going to lose a large portion of it's player base. And I am seriously going to be one of them.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 20:22:00 -
[2423]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
So now any ship which isnt highest dps in class is underpowered? Did you check the tanks on some of those ships you mentioned. Did you notice that some of the missile ships have awesome dps and the rail ships are awsome at anti support.
Also a number of people in this thread need to work out the difference between hacs and nanohacs. Atm people just keep pasting battle reports with a gang full of hacs and going "oh look overpowered nanos" with no evidence that these hacs are nano fitted. Guess what not all of them are and the results are still gonna be the exact same afterwards your just killing off solo and small gang pvp with the nerf.
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:22:00 -
[2424]
Originally by: Rick Thwaites Stop nerfing, start boosting!
This to be honest. Wouldn't boost have just been better, even if it was a lot of them? CCP is just so negative with this game.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 20:25:00 -
[2425]
Originally by: Firkragg
Also a number of people in this thread need to work out the difference between hacs and nanohacs.
Particularly with Zealots. Many people use Locus-rigged Pulse zealots heavy on tracking/range mods to boost the range of Scorch.
Unrelated to that at all,
Re: MWDs, and their 'intention'. What was the point of having short range weapon systems on ships bigger than frigates if MWDs weren't to be used to get in range? Rapiers? MWD-related bonuses on ships? Vagabonds?
Don't even try to argue the Vaga isn't meant to speed tank and is only viable in that respect.
If the Vaga was truly meant to be the only HAC that could speed tank, that is a tacit admission that no other race, in your mind, deserves a good HAC.
Don't give me that 'tank it' bullshit. Tier 2 BCs are better in every single situation. Even in the mongoloid passive shield tanking Ishtars/Myrms with autocannons (please **** off). Even if they didn't tank significantly better, BCs have higher EHP. If EHP wasn't incredibly important, HP amounts wouldn't have been boosted.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 20:40:00 -
[2426]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 27/07/2008 20:40:45 Yep, that is what you get with you send a group of guys into a room for five hours and all they do is go down on each other! They come up with this bullshit because they are going to loose there job if they didn't have anything. There first mistake was 1 meeting? and there second mistake is five hours? I am a manager at a company and let me tell you, we have meetings in the morning and afternoon. Sometimes that streaches for two to three days so we can come up with good changes. You guys fail and I hope this causes you alot of money! I will be hear to laugh at you the whole step of the way CCP. I played eve for 5 years almost already and The next five I will remind you of this mistake EVERY SINGLE DAY! LOL
Day Four since mistake: CCP Still sucks! |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.27 20:42:00 -
[2427]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/07/2008 20:43:17
Originally by: Firkragg
Also a number of people in this thread need to work out the difference between hacs and nanohacs. Atm people just keep pasting battle reports with a gang full of hacs and going "oh look overpowered nanos" with no evidence that these hacs are nano fitted. Guess what not all of them are and the results are still gonna be the exact same afterwards your just killing off solo and small gang pvp with the nerf.
This. Quoted for the damn truth.
Whenever people see a small HAC gang, they all start to panic like 'zomg, it goes 20km/s, we cant kill that in 100 years'. Doesnt matter if nano or not, they wont try because they think they already know they cant catch it. They fail to notice it actually only goes 3-4km/s (or cant sustain the speed for more than a minute).
Even if you'd plate up every single HAC in the gang, they'd just wait in despair and get slaughtered all the same for being passive.
That is the whole point of the matter, if you dont try you dont succeed. If you'd try to catch my vaga once I start shooting, I'd say the chance to kill it lies around 90% if you just have 1-2 frigates with a web really (so much for nanofit doesnt commit to fights, lol), the pilots should be around 3 weeks old to do job nicely.
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Taya Tal
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Posted - 2008.07.27 20:47:00 -
[2428]
Edited by: Taya Tal on 27/07/2008 20:47:54 So who wants to fly arazu's/lachesis' now? It will be like a rapier with sensor damps >:)
Edit: At least this nerf boosted gallente recons.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 20:56:00 -
[2429]
Nothing wrong with boosting gallente recons, as damps are all but a joke atm. Had they implemented that boost to gallente (but made it require scripts), coupled with perhaps a change to webs (scripts to give less speed reduction/more range), and perhaps changes to introduce some diminishing returns to the uber high-end nano's, I'd have been happy. Slapping a t2 vaga down to 3km/s or so is a bit much I think. At least it's rough on me, since I'm even more casual than the casual player, in that I don't use a full HG snake set.
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Arte
AFK
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:01:00 -
[2430]
Originally by: Yukisa You devs need to ask yourself a vital question and come to understand the game before you try to balance it...
1. What was the intention of the MWD as a module when it was designed and implemented?
........... [solution number] 2. AB speed is increased. The % increase can be tested to get the right amount. Basically the AB is the module of choice for dog fights while the MWD is for those wanting gap closing bursts or quick evasion, not constant evasion.
The age of your character suggests you've not been in the game from early on and so you wouldn't know the state of play with speed mods in the first 1-2 years. If that's the case, your pontificating on the previous state of the game can be forgiven for being wrong (in my humble opinion), though your suggested 'solutions' have merit.
If you didn't know, there was a time when you could fit multiple MWDs, ABs or combinations of the two, it only depended on your fitting skills.
This obviously resulted in huge speeds (8km/s torp ravens anyone?) which needed to be nerfed.
This resulted in the capacitor and sig radius penalties for MWDs, afterburners had their speed bonus increases shortly after. To suggest they were both 'designed' differently previously is right, but not in the way you're saying.
Your summary of what their uses should be is something I can agree on. I also agree that the introduction of other speed affecting factors has magnified the perceived problem. Maybe make the MWD only allow you to go in a straight line (literally, a micro-warp) and introduce larger Mn value afterburners to compensate.
Anyway, not sure why I'm posting, this is never gonna get read. For what it's worth, please remember folks, how the devblog was introduced...
Originally by: Nozh
ATTENTION! THE MODIFICATIONS DISCUSSED BELOW ARE ALL SUBJECT TO CHANGE BASED ON PLAYER INPUT AND TESTING EXPERIENCE.
Speed has been nerfed a long time ago and the game still exists, the sky didn't fall and the world is still turning... CALM DOWN.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:04:00 -
[2431]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor That is the whole point of the matter, if you dont try you dont succeed. If you'd try to catch my vaga once I start shooting, I'd say the chance to kill it lies around 90% if you just have 1-2 frigates with a web really (so much for nanofit doesnt commit to fights, lol), the pilots should be around 3 weeks old to do job nicely.
Ehh... not strictly true. If some frigs came and tried to web me I would sic my Warriors and turn my guns on them; no more frigs. Still that's not to say a Vaga is unkillable, it certainly isn't with the correct ships or tactics. (Even a slower or non-specialised ship can nab the unwary nano-fit with judicious use of predictable orbiting mechanics and overloaded mwd and web.)
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Kretin Arnon
Amarr Path of the Immortals
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:28:00 -
[2432]
Originally by: Arte posting
I read your post Arte, it was a good one.
I also remember the days when you could fly as fast as the torpedoes you were launching. Alpha strike! Ahaha... I wonder how the game could possibly survive that nerf. +--------------------------+ For now I sleep and watch |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:28:00 -
[2433]
Quote:
Quote: Originally by: Nozh
ATTENTION! THE MODIFICATIONS DISCUSSED BELOW ARE ALL SUBJECT TO CHANGE BASED ON PLAYER INPUT AND TESTING EXPERIENCE.
Speed has been nerfed a long time ago and the game still exists, the sky didn't fall and the world is still turning... CALM DOWN.
I wouldn't put too much faith in language like that. The entire game is subject to change. They could remove battleships tomorrow if they wanted to.
But anyways, the 100 pages of this thread is called player input, and a lot of that input is for them to change it.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:31:00 -
[2434]
Originally by: Boz Well
Quote:
Quote: Originally by: Nozh
ATTENTION! THE MODIFICATIONS DISCUSSED BELOW ARE ALL SUBJECT TO CHANGE BASED ON PLAYER INPUT AND TESTING EXPERIENCE.
Speed has been nerfed a long time ago and the game still exists, the sky didn't fall and the world is still turning... CALM DOWN.
I wouldn't put too much faith in language like that. The entire game is subject to change. They could remove battleships tomorrow if they wanted to.
But anyways, the 100 pages of this thread is called player input, and a lot of that input is for them to change it.
As it stands the voting is:
Against the nerf 28 pages.
For the nerf 12 pages.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:39:00 -
[2435]
Edited by: Matrixcvd on 27/07/2008 21:43:09 What I find hilarious is the comments by the ret3rded devs that go "SPeed breaks the game mechanics"
Does a webber work on a ship going 6 k/s? Does it not work on a ship going 26 k/s?
Does a neutralizer work on a ship going 6k/s? Does it not work on a ship going 26 k/s?
Does a ECM module work on a ship going 6k/s? Does it not work on a ship going 26 k/s?
All this is about is bringing the game back to F1, F2, F3, youdie status. no thought at all. If the entire line of HACs can't be nano fit to some degree all you will see are a few ships. Right now, nanozealots, ishtars, Canes etc are used quite frequently, this will not be the case. If the only ship that can effectively engage and fight, disengage tactically is the vaga. You will only see gangs of vagas and all those morons out there that claim they fight 30+ vagas will see that come to fruition
As always, take the extremes and minimize them, not everything in the middle. Put a speed limit, other than that if people can't figure out how to fight speed fits they just need to die, or log off
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Sampanion
The Independant Jack
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:40:00 -
[2436]
Did they mean 'audacious'?
I support the principle that there should not be an 'optimal' way to succeed in combat. Right now the best way to fit your fleet is always for speed, the reason being that you can withdraw from combat without loosing. This changes the risk vs reward ratio.
I fully appreciate that those unstoppable vagga pilots got that way by putting blood sweat and tears into mastering the art - but the game can't continue with only HACs, CAPs and recons being useful in pvp and everything else consigned to ratting.
I have read a lot of comments along the lines of æhow do a few pilots defeat many?Æ and I wonder why that should ever be so. Why should 5 pilots fight 10, kill two and escape with no damage?
Kill two or three at risk to your five. Get a medal. But donÆt expect to cruise around all night killing anything at will without risk from anything but nano response.
And to answer the question how do you scout û use cov-ops, use recon, use an interceptor which is going to be relatively fast. ThatÆs what those ships are for.
I have spent the last few weeks training for a vagga û since there was no viable combat alternative and I live in 0.0.
Even so û I support this nerf.
On the essence of nerf generally; it always seems the people nerfed complain most û in fact the newer you are the more you suffer from any nerf.
Some of you got to play with nano-battleships û I didnÆt. Anyone who lives or works in 0.0 as a combat pilot got to fly vaggas really fast û I didnÆt!
Remember when your EOS was a solopwnmobile û I donÆt!
So donÆt cry because you are getting nerfed û pity players starting today; they never even knew what nano was.
Just jump on the next optimal pvp ship. Lachesis springs to mind.
If your going to cry, cry for those who are ratting for trit bars.
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 21:47:00 -
[2437]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 21:51:30
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Kira Novia Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.
You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.
Good show, Gents. Good show.
By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.
Smooth.
You win the internets.
I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.
BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.
cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.
That's a load of crap. Caldari need a BOOST to be in line with the other races. Please stop. You sound like a noob.
The point is, my Astarte with blasters has, with antimatter loaded, what, 5Km range roughly? Not sure, I'd have to look.
Unless I can hold your Drake still, I can't kill you.
With the mwd+web nerf, we're screwed.
fit an AB + scram and tracking enhancer
What do you talk about ? AB for gallente ships ?? You flew with anyone ? Man if u not have enough speed u cant hit the enemy. A blaster mega have with full skill and antimatter ammo 4.5km optimal and 13km falloff the pilot must to go short range. If he cant do this ,cant hit the target. And 1 more problem the CCP guys made for weapon disruptor a new bonus, the falloff range decreasing. One weapon disruptor without script on a curse modifying the shot range to 3.1km optimal and 9,4km falloff on a blaster mega. LOL . Try to hit someting with 50% webs and AB. This is a very-very bad idea. Why ? The Raven can shot to 30km with full damage and allways hit the target and no effect them a disruptor. An Amarr battleship aka. Abaddon with pulse lasers can shot 15+10km with full damage and 45+10km with scorch.And one thing more, the gallente ships are slow, when the web nerf coming the lighter ships will be kept the distance. Say it now, the blaster boats will be fine.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:50:00 -
[2438]
Originally by: Sampanion Did they mean 'audacious'?
Right now the best way to fit your fleet is always for speed,
Right now the best way to have fun in small gang PVP is to fit for speed. To cover large distances, engage when its viable tactically and disengage when superior numbers present themselves. Its not the best fit for other types of operations, we have snipe, RR, tank etc. If CCP gets serious about SOV mechanics and really allow small groups of (10-15) pilots to enter into other peoples territory and wreak havoc on their industrial and mining operations by reducing HP on towers/station services/pos anchorables, then you will see moar types of gangs in 0.0.
If CCP gets serious about not allowing people to amass 400 man naptrain failure cascade blobs by restricting overview mechanics and restricting friendlies and REQUIRE PEOPLE TO FIGHT FOR THEMSELVES, minor changes to speed might be acceptable. But these fundemental changes to PVP mechanics are in direct response to the lack of intelligence by a vocal minority of newer pilots who can't, will not, or lack the capacity to learn how to PVP
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:51:00 -
[2439]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Ehh... not strictly true. If some frigs came and tried to web me I would sic my Warriors and turn my guns on them; no more frigs. Still that's not to say a Vaga is unkillable, it certainly isn't with the correct ships or tactics. (Even a slower or non-specialised ship can nab the unwary nano-fit with judicious use of predictable orbiting mechanics and overloaded mwd and web.)
What I was trying to say is that sacrificing a few t1 frigates can already yield the result anyone is looking for, killing your target rather than chasing it off.
At the end of the day, if your gang lost some 30mill in cheap frigs, but you killed billions in HAC fittings, you were effective. Thats the way one should try to think when working out tactics.
That said, I'm looking forward to try a (speedfit) jaguar on sisi, I guess it could perform the nano-tackler role quite good
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:56:00 -
[2440]
Originally by: Sampanion
I have read a lot of comments along the lines of æhow do a few pilots defeat many?Æ and I wonder why that should ever be so.
Because the second that 'Yes, a larger unskilled blob should always succeed' becomes officially the way PvP is 'supposed' to be in Eve, it loses all flavor and turns to shit. And then, according ot your logic, 'the best way to fit your fleet is to completely outnumber the enemy'. You think lag is bad now, just wait.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:06:00 -
[2441]
Originally by: Taya Tal Edited by: Taya Tal on 27/07/2008 20:47:54 So who wants to fly arazu's/lachesis' now? It will be like a rapier with sensor damps >:)
Edit: At least this nerf boosted gallente recons.
i had mine arazu / lachesis in my hanger waiting for the day when it would be more useful other than a long range paper thing warp disrupter XD
eat your heart out ECM
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:22:00 -
[2442]
Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 22:22:44
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 27/07/2008 21:43:09 What I find hilarious is the comments by the ret3rded devs that go "SPeed breaks the game mechanics"
and why exactly are you playing this ******ed game developed by ******ed devs?
Go make your own game with Ki An, Nexus Kinnon, and Le Skunk and GTFO of this one before it falls and hits you in your face.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:29:00 -
[2443]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 22:22:44
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 27/07/2008 21:43:09 What I find hilarious is the comments by the ret3rded devs that go "SPeed breaks the game mechanics"
and why exactly are you playing this ******ed game developed by ******ed devs?
Go make your own game with Ki An, Nexus Kinnon, and Le Skunk and GTFO of this one before it falls and hits you in your face.
You sir need to go join WoW.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:31:00 -
[2444]
Originally by: Tomic You sir need to go join WoW.
actually with all the whines and tears on this thread the only ones headed to WoW is PL , Sir.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:32:00 -
[2445]
Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 22:22:44
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 27/07/2008 21:43:09 What I find hilarious is the comments by the ret3rded devs that go "SPeed breaks the game mechanics"
and why exactly are you playing this ******ed game developed by ******ed devs?
Go make your own game with Ki An, Nexus Kinnon, and Le Skunk and GTFO of this one before it falls and hits you in your face.
last time i checked they made a game for other people to play and pay for, and since i have been playing and paying like the other people who hold my views on nanos, and over and over again it appears your views are in the minority, you can go p1ss off
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:35:00 -
[2446]
Originally by: Matrixcvd last time i checked they made a game for other people to play and pay for, and since i have been playing and paying like the other people who hold my views on nanos, and over and over again it appears your views are in the minority, you can go p1ss off
look at you now having to defend your playstyle after knocking off other playsyles because you hate them. oh the irony!
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Ryelle
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:50:00 -
[2447]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
I love that a 14-year-old thinks he has such infinite wisdom and experience.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:58:00 -
[2448]
Originally by: Kira Novia Matrixcvd is right. You really do need to stfu. You are in the *minority* here. The older players, such as myself, can counter nano. We can fight nano. We know HOW to fight nano. Learn to do the same. And stfu.
and
Quote: ~~~EDIT~~~ Yes, Nanos are a bit over-powered. I, myself, admit this.
dont contradict at all. nope
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Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.27 22:58:00 -
[2449]
Originally by: Ryelle
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
I love that a 14-year-old thinks he has such infinite wisdom and experience.
it is obviously a troll attempting to paint all those who are for the new changes as immature, unreasonable and unfamiliar with pvp.
..which is out of touch with reality.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:00:00 -
[2450]
Originally by: Ryelle
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
I love that a 14-year-old thinks he has such infinite wisdom and experience.
and i luv how you're so easily entertained by a 14-year-old you see, grownups usually ignore me, but you give me attention. i luv attention from you
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Nathrezim
Gallente Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:03:00 -
[2451]
Well, i am Gallente pilot with some touch of amarr and as others have pointed out, there might be a problem with gallente blaster boats, since they lack the range on guns,mass and speed on ships that is needed via MWD and web, in order to reach a target and keep it there to pummel it down. But on the other side.... Its not a single-player game folks. Gallente people, stop crying.. You got corpmates. You got friends.. A well-balanced gang, with various shiptypes in it (logistics, damage dealers, some ecm, some *fast* tacklers* etc) can be devastating.So stop crying ''I wont reach my target, he'll get out of my web range waaa waa waaambulance''. Just use your corpmates/friends in various roles and various ships FFS (i hate seeing gangs of 15x vagas, one rapier and a falcon.It reminds me of 2004/2005 where everyone and their mother would fly nothing but geddons and scoprions. Yulai anyone?) and everything can happen, instead of using 1-2 shiptypes in the game.
Also, on a sidenote.. I only read through the first 3 pages of this thread.. Cba to read through 90-whatever pages and i cant help it, but say :
Let me lick your tears nano***s. They taste so sweet.
Now to all of you kids who ''cant play anymore and will quit if this happens as it ruins my gamestyle bla bla'', i say : Can i have your stuff?
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:05:00 -
[2452]
whats so strange is that Matrix Skype has offered nothing to the discussion but diatribes about other people and yet his poasts have not been snipped.
/me puts the tinfoil hat on
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Ryelle
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:07:00 -
[2453]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Ryelle
Originally by: Matrix Skye
im not an adult yet :) im 14 years old and im glad ccp is listenenening to me because im ruining YOUR game. PWND! HAHAHAHA! my imaginary girlfriend laffs at you N00b!
I love that a 14-year-old thinks he has such infinite wisdom and experience.
and i luv how you're so easily entertained by a 14-year-old you see, grownups usually ignore me, but you give me attention. i luv attention from you
I think people ignore you for other reasons rather than just being 14. All your posts don't help to solve the problem and only make people who support the nerf look like idiots. But you know, just keep feeding the flame and see what happens.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:08:00 -
[2454]
Originally by: Matrixcvd whats so strange is that Matrix Skype has offered nothing to the discussion but diatribes about other people and yet his poasts have not been snipped.
/me puts the tinfoil hat on
look again, fool. i gave my opinions to those that werent insulting. problem is that TRI and PL are mostly jerks that live off smack and insults like yourself. Give your view and i'll give you mine. talk to me like an idiot, and well, you got yourself one :D
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Ryelle
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:08:00 -
[2455]
Seriously, someone make a list of reasons why Nano is overpowered. All this arguing is getting nowhere.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:10:00 -
[2456]
Originally by: Ryelle I think people ignore you for other reasons rather than just being 14. All your posts don't help to solve the problem and only make people who support the nerf look like idiots. But you know, just keep feeding the flame and see what happens.
ok, we're playing the 'mature card' now it seems, eh?
so are you going to give this speach to the rest of the trolls or just the one that doesn't agree with you?
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Ryelle
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:12:00 -
[2457]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Ryelle I think people ignore you for other reasons rather than just being 14. All your posts don't help to solve the problem and only make people who support the nerf look like idiots. But you know, just keep feeding the flame and see what happens.
ok, we're playing the 'mature card' now it seems, eh?
so are you going to give this speach to the rest of the trolls or just the one that doesn't agree with you?
Mature card? If you want to play it sure, or I can play the card that you've never seen a vagina, but I choose not to. I'm neither for nor against the nerf, but I would like to see the arguments for nerfing nano because all this trolling is overshadowing the actual good arguments.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:13:00 -
[2458]
Originally by: Ryelle Seriously, someone make a list of reasons why Nano is overpowered. All this arguing is getting nowhere.
Cos carebears can't solo 5 nano hacs?
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Ryelle
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:14:00 -
[2459]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Ryelle Seriously, someone make a list of reasons why Nano is overpowered. All this arguing is getting nowhere.
Cos carebears can't solo 5 nano hacs?
I'd prefer it from someone who supports the nerf. But that could possibly be a reason
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:16:00 -
[2460]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Ryelle I think people ignore you for other reasons rather than just being 14. All your posts don't help to solve the problem and only make people who support the nerf look like idiots. But you know, just keep feeding the flame and see what happens.
ok, we're playing the 'mature card' now it seems, eh?
so are you going to give this speach to the rest of the trolls or just the one that doesn't agree with you?
You gave your idea at one point, but now you're just trolling. And you have been just trolling for pages and pages now.
TBH I've found the discourse from PL and other anti-nerf people to be, for the most part, more civilized than yours Matrix, at least after you went into baby-mode and started flaming. A lot of people disagreeing with you are simply saying this nerf goes too FAR, rather than this nerf shouldn't happen AT ALL. And yet you just come back with spam, trashing alliances (that most people give way more respect to than you) and basically flaming.
You started off acting mature. Now you're just spamming. Drop it already.
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Matrix Skye
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:20:00 -
[2461]
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Ryelle I think people ignore you for other reasons rather than just being 14. All your posts don't help to solve the problem and only make people who support the nerf look like idiots. But you know, just keep feeding the flame and see what happens.
ok, we're playing the 'mature card' now it seems, eh?
so are you going to give this speach to the rest of the trolls or just the one that doesn't agree with you?
You gave your idea at one point, but now you're just trolling. And you have been just trolling for pages and pages now.
TBH I've found the discourse from PL and other anti-nerf people to be, for the most part, more civilized than yours Matrix, at least after you went into baby-mode and started flaming. A lot of people disagreeing with you are simply saying this nerf goes too FAR, rather than this nerf shouldn't happen AT ALL. And yet you just come back with spam, trashing alliances (that most people give way more respect to than you) and basically flaming.
You started off acting mature. Now you're just spamming. Drop it already.
fair enough. i'll drop it.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:24:00 -
[2462]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 27/07/2008 23:25:17
Originally by: Ryelle I'm neither for nor against the nerf, but I would like to see the arguments for nerfing nano because all this trolling is overshadowing the actual good arguments.
The best argument ive seen that does not involve a ****ing contest about stats or top speeds is the simple fact that so many of the regular pvpers in eve absolutely adore flying nano ships. They do not fly the 10kms ships but the 4-5k ones in battles that are mobile, tactical and very strategic and super fun.
These battles normally involve losses on both sides but they do not normally involve either of the opposing fleets taking 100% losses and i do not consider this to be a bad thing as sitting opposite another static fleet hitting f1-f8 until the gang with any ships left over is considered the winner is a crappy way to fight and involves no tactical thinking or piloting skill at all.
To nerf them so hard is to remove from eve something that a huge amount of the player base loves so with that in mind how can ccp be thinking about what is best for the game as the game is the players.
On the other hand i have no issue with nerfing the 30+kms or silly speed fits mainly because and contrary to what some ppl may say you never see gangs like that or at least i never have and ive been playing since 2003, ive only ever seen single pimped out ships do that kind of speed tbh.
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keuel
Gallente Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:28:00 -
[2463]
Quote: Yes, Nanos are a bit over-powered. I, myself, admit this. My main concern here in what these nerfs will do to the Gallente blaster boats and my interceptors. Web Nerf: Can't Hold Enemy Still Long Enough To Kill MWD Nerf: Can't Close The Distance Quickly Enough /nor/ Keep Up With The Enemy Goodbye Astarte. Goodbye Hyperion. Goodbye Gallente blaster boats.
Meh, I think the idea of nerf nanos ok, they really need it imo...but why nerf blaster botas since they are not so overpowered, blasters have worst track (same as acs), wordt optimal and falloff but good damage, like, ccp should now then boost tracking of blasters and acs too in order to go counter the nerf instead of just kill blaster setups.
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Ryelle
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 23:50:00 -
[2464]
Edited by: Ryelle on 27/07/2008 23:54:57
Here's my take on speed.
The core argument is that ships are going too fast. But what determines a ship being too fast?
Arguments for a ship being too fast:
1) You can choose when to engage and when not to engage. 2) You can run away from a fight easily. 3) There are not enough ways to counter fast ships/Drones and Missiles can't hit them. 4) HACs/Cruiser sized ships should not be allowed to go as fast as a frigate.
If there are others I am overlooking please let me know.
Now here's what I think about these arguments:
1) You can choose when to engage and when not to engage. Cloaking also lets you choose when to engage and not engage a target. Using scouts allows this as well. So does safespotting. I don't really see how this is an issue. If someone can elaborate then please do so.
2) You can run away from a fight easily.
I don't think this is a valid argument. The reason being is that does this mean no one should be allowed to run from a fight? Should an interceptor that's not pointed not be allowed to disengage and warp off? Should a Falcon jamming at 100km+ not be allowed to sit aligned and ready to warp off either? If a ship is set up for speed and they are able to exploit your gang's weakness of being slow that was their tactical advantage. Just like if you are prepared for heavy dps with RR BSes, does that mean we should nerf that as well because you weren't prepared to fight that?
3) There are not enough ways to counter fast ships. These are the ways I know to counter Nanos. a) Another nano gang b) Rapier/Huginn/Cheetah c) Another smaller, faster ship, like an interceptor with a web, as most Nanos don't have webs themselves d) Ships fitted with Energy Neutralizers e) EW such as ECM, Sensor Dampening, and Tracking Disruption
Then the issue with Missiles and Drones not hitting. Isn't this an issue CCP can solve by making adjustments to these problems? Most turrets, let's say railguns, can't track well enough to hit a ship orbiting at 2l+km anyways. Couple that with tracking disruptors fitted to a Nano ship, the target will have no chance of hitting the target. However, I don't see what is wrong with this because EW like ECM exploits this same fact, that you cannot hit the target. Last time I checked, if you're being jammed and your drones aren't released, you can't send your drones against a target when you can't lock unless they are triggered. Should we nerf ECM because missile boats can still counter with FoF missiles and gunboats can't?
4) HACs/Cruiser sized ships should not be allowed to go as fast as a frigate. I agree with this. However, we put modules on our ships and implants in our clones to achieve either more damage, more tanking ability, or more speed, etc.. Frigates are naturally faster than most HACs and Cruisers to begin with. The disadvantage a cruiser going at 25+km/s is that they have poor agility and can't orbit tightly. What kind of speeds does a cruiser achieve while orbiting at 20km or so? They only go ludicrously fast in a straight line, but let's say I can orbit at 20km in my Vaga while going 25km/s (which is pretty unrealistic). Well, my guns aren't going to be able to track at that speed anyways, which means I can only hit while going in straight lines, leaving me open to turret fire. So the issue lies with something like an Ishtar where the damage is coming from the drones. But if the Ishtar is going so fast, the drones are still left vulnerable. So to me, it looks like nano missile boats can become a real issue.
I believe in risk vs. reward and if someone decides to spend the isk on HG Snakes and T2 rigs then they should expect an unfair advantage against the average joe.
In my opinion, I don't think CCP should dumb down the game. From what I see it seems pretty balanced to me. Sure, speed can probably use tweaking, but not a total overhaul.
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Axe 2Gr1nd
Minmatar Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.27 23:51:00 -
[2465]
Quote: Due to the slight reduction in battleship MWD speed, the radius of the large mobile warp disruptors might get reduced
Come on! PLEASE 1 + 1 = 2!!
if ur affecting how webb's work then this would be a Double nerf on a bubble. Let me be plain (using number that I have plucked from the air): - BS's Speed: Currently 2km's with MWD. - so a 100km bubble on a gate means that you have about 50~40km to travel to get out of there, or 25~20 sec's of MWD, - Current Web's 90% reduces BS MWD speed to 200ms = Dead BS in bubble.
So Guessing on the patch we have: - BS's MWD speed 1.2kms - so a 100km bubble on a gate means that you have about 50~40km to travel to get out of there, or 42~33 sec's of MWD, Hmm that is scary don't need to web him to kill him if there is enought DPS around (eg: Fleety = kill BS's, gate camp though may mean that BS's can tank out of bubble) - Web's now only 50~60% = BS MWD speed is 600~800ms = 66~50 sec's to get out of the bubble (based on 40km to edge).
See how webbing a Ship made dramatic dif between getting out of a bubble before but not any more.This means that in fleet engagements if a large number of targets come thur a gate, you are only going to be able to pick of the targets that get webbed. In a gate camp (like the one's you see at the entry to 0.0) which typically do not see 30+ ships sitting on a gate are going to have a hard time taking down a BS.
Also typically in a Camp Large's bubble are not used, either Med or interdictor's What is the affect of this going to be?
Now if you change the size of the bubbles, things are going to be "ludicrous" Again. This is not to even mention the affect that all this has on interdictor's.
I would love to see some more relevant figures on this as these are only my guesses.
PLEASE track these changes to all the relevant scenario's taht they affect. Thanks Enjoy -------------------------------------------------- To be put to the grind stone, To Sharpen One's Skills. --------------------------------------------------
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Gigi Barbagrigia
58th Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.28 00:06:00 -
[2466]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
Huh? And you based this proposal on what? We are all playing numbers here.
Numbers aside as they aren't set, I don't like the idea behind this. You start with utopia, set up Holy Graal of gaming and then mention in the passing that is mostly you, CCP, that has problem with ludicrous speeds.
Yes, your game prefers we sit still. At everything. That'd be Utopia, no? Just imagine how well would game perform if it was turn based ...
But you have a job to and it involves keeping this universe ... standing still j/k, going. Understood. I just wish you'd realize that unless you make it very boring, at any point in development there will be certain, rather large part of your player base that will be dying to one particular style and have no real clue.
It will be a different game and that's actually a good thing. We'll clone. Wish it was due to something else though.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.28 00:50:00 -
[2467]
I have been thinking and think there is a single point I don 't like. The reactivateion delay on MWD. Why? because will make kitign MUCH harder. Think on the way a tempest fight a mega, it keeps turnign MWD on and off just enough to keep the mega outside web range. THis already became VERY difficult since the introduction of overheat (sicne your enemy oveerheats and you cannot react before a full cycle of your MWD).
The reactivation delay wil make this maneuver even harder. That is how tempest, vagabonds and other ships with speed advantage were made to fight. And this small issue creates a big problem for them.
So please reconsider it, or make it at least it don 't happen after MWD deactivated normaly (by own user turning it off on a pulsing MWD fashion).
To the whinners.. wake up, CCP gave a very real and serius reson to change speed, the engine is not handlign it very well this is enough reason. Nothign will change it. What you can arguee is how to keep things balanced and not make some ships useless. But Anyone that stil have hopes of still going 8km/s or more.. wake up. Won't happen! My own expirience as someoen that owrked on game development industry, when the engine developers say, "t he engine cannot handle it ok" there is no ammount of beer that will make the game designers not change the mechanics associated with that issue. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Seishomaru
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 00:56:00 -
[2468]
Originally by: keuel
Quote: Yes, Nanos are a bit over-powered. I, myself, admit this. My main concern here in what these nerfs will do to the Gallente blaster boats and my interceptors. Web Nerf: Can't Hold Enemy Still Long Enough To Kill MWD Nerf: Can't Close The Distance Quickly Enough /nor/ Keep Up With The Enemy Goodbye Astarte. Goodbye Hyperion. Goodbye Gallente blaster boats.
Meh, I think the idea of nerf nanos ok, they really need it imo...but why nerf blaster botas since they are not so overpowered, blasters have worst track (same as acs), wordt optimal and falloff but good damage, like, ccp should now then boost tracking of blasters and acs too in order to go counter the nerf instead of just kill blaster setups.
just a hint, stop writtign crap and people might pay attention. You say "Blasters have worse tracking (same as ac)" .. comapred to what? They have the BEST TRACKING!!! For god sake ! where you got this idea that balsters have bad tracking! PLAsers have FAR worse tracking and AC have about same trackign PLUS the chance to miss inherent of fighting in falloff.
SO shut up until you start to understand a bit of how things are in game!
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Oyster Colors
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 00:59:00 -
[2469]
Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia (...) at any point in development there will be certain, rather large part of your player base that will be dying to one particular style and have no real clue.
Well, thats basically what devs try to balance right now. Even if they have no clue and could solve their problems themselves, the problem at hand is they're getting slaughtered by the thousands (this can be blamed on FW to a large extend imho, people do not pvp regularly but expect to do well against seasoned pvpers).
If they die too many times to a similar tactic they see no way to defend themselves from, they say the game sucks and turn away. The key here is getting killed by superior dps is something you generally accept, its just a number game.
However, getting beaten by a tactic you perceive as superior is a pretty dead-end situation, you can't hope to solve it by getting in a bigger ship, so the individual player will more likely give up in this situation.
So no matter what, you'll always **** off one side or another, and should find a way in-between.
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Blue Sensation
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.28 01:00:00 -
[2470]
Originally by: Aedron
My argument is without nano gangs, you have blobs and... well blobs... so one of two things will happen now. battleship blobage on a grander scale, which is happening regardless of this update
OR
More likely you will see Nano gangs turn into Recon gangs. 5 rapiers 2 falcons etc. Warp around cloaked, keep hidden when blobbed aposed to running. Then we will get a Recon nerf (which in a way has already happend. Reduction in Ewars been happening gradually for a while now, the whole -50% aposed to -90% on webs, the scripts for sensor damps, the effectiveness and range for jammers, The nos nerf.) All I know is that CCP wanted EvE to have small ships and small gang warfare and try to get rid of blob warfare when in fact evidence of their recent and previous patches show that any and all edge that smaller ships had over their larger tank and spank battleship counterparts has been removed.
In an interview after the most recent tournament one of the guys from CCP stated they where looking into fixing the Ewar Frigs. Talk of making them immune to webs etc. I was in favor of this, thinking that we where going to be reciving a cheap, fast frig that couldnt be webbed seemed like a good counter to the issues of nano.
Lastly, Why Why Why do all games start of with the much loved "Rock, Paper, Scissors" setup which in eve would seem perfect. Every ship has a weakness to one type and a strength vs another. The same as the races, Ammar not being very good VS Minmitar but blowing away Caldari and so on. BALANCE kills games. If there is balance then why is there a choice, if you have the same odds with one race or ship as another then why give the option to train 4 seperate races. The Vaga should never be compaired to the Cerb when it comes to what they should be able to do and their strenghs. By BALANCING the game your destroying the diversity of the game which in turn is srinking the tactical options avalible and so on.
All the talk about how the MWD has been made into a MANDATORY module, its the so called BALANCE that's caused this nothing else. That's my two cents anyway... and I'm not even American I'm brittish so I dont know where I got cents from.
^^ This
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.28 01:09:00 -
[2471]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl dont forget vaga isnt cap stable. Its cool to kill things with 250 dps with (!)3 gyro. Having cap for less than 1,5minute. Pulsing mwd so speed droping to preserve cap. Welcome reactivation delay. Minmatar race will be trashed as whle now. All good ships got narfed already. Welcome rupture/huricane only.
see? This is the type of crap people must stop postign if they want to be taking seriously by CCP. Just for starters.. vaga with 3 gyros on pretty common setup is 500 dps (and with asmart fittign wil have about 30 km falloff so about 400 dps at 15km) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 01:24:00 -
[2472]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
see? This is the type of crap people must stop postign if they want to be taking seriously by CCP. Just for starters.. vaga with 3 gyros on pretty common setup is 500 dps (and with asmart fittign wil have about 30 km falloff so about 400 dps at 15km)
So you mean vaga that barely hits 3km/s?
Common vaga setup is 2 gyro, nano, 2 od, 2 poly (or 3 gyro 2od 2 poly). This hits 5k+. If you remove polys and leave 3 gyros (2lows left for speed + faloff rigs as you wanted) its pretty slow.
And yea - it has 500dps - at 2km range. At 15km it is around 300.
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 01:43:00 -
[2473]
Originally by: Ryelle Seriously, someone make a list of reasons why Nano is overpowered. All this arguing is getting nowhere.
basically it comes down to the only way you can counter blobs in their home space is with speed. if CCP nerf speed, they nerf roaming gangs, and destroy a whole aspect of PvP. Id love to see someone from CCP explain to us some other way of taking on 4 motheships a titan 50 sniper BS and 20 support with 30 guys other than speed.
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Thea Arsoniztik
Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:01:00 -
[2474]
Edited by: Thea Arsoniztik on 28/07/2008 02:01:48
Originally by: Matrix Skye I like turtles.
QFT.
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Battlecheese
Caldari Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:05:00 -
[2475]
Everyone should stop this fud about blobs. Blobs are caused by the gate mechanic, and are present in both nano and non-nano warfare.
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:14:00 -
[2476]
Originally by: Mr Rive
Originally by: Ryelle Seriously, someone make a list of reasons why Nano is overpowered. All this arguing is getting nowhere.
basically it comes down to the only way you can counter blobs in their home space is with speed
or lots of e-war
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:26:00 -
[2477]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Originally by: Kira Novia Matrixcvd is right. You really do need to stfu. You are in the *minority* here. The older players, such as myself, can counter nano. We can fight nano. We know HOW to fight nano. Learn to do the same. And stfu.
and
Quote: ~~~EDIT~~~ Yes, Nanos are a bit over-powered. I, myself, admit this.
dont contradict at all. nope
Slightly refreshed from a nap, I come back ... and see this.
I wasn't contradicting what I was originally saying...
Nanos -are- overpowered. I think everybody knows this to be true. How overpowered? That is open to everybodies opinion. Personally, my *only* problem with nano is a vagabond. The Vagabond can move as fast as an Interceptor and has way-more in the terms of firepower. That IS unbalanced. It shouldn't be possible. I yield the floor the Vaga is designed for a speed tank. But it's missing a balance.
I don't have a problem fighting them though. Because I -will- get the bastard webbed. And once he's webbed, he can't do jack-shit to me.
This entire idea has been poorly thought out by CCP.
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slip66
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:30:00 -
[2478]
Originally by: Dray
dont hide behind stupid stats and ignorance, tell us how it is, we might leave but we'd respect you for it, at least i would, so come on CCP do it, no really, do it, tell us what the bottom line is.
If you dont have the balls just f**k off and make this game exactly what you didnt intend it to be.
It might not taste nice but the truth is its own reward.
0/ Dray
Anyways, this is actually are really good point. If ccp comes out and says what their idea of pvp should be it would make it easier for people to adjust too and possibly they would get the ideas they are missing to get it there.
If there is a maximum speed they do not want players going just say it. If there is some relative balance they are looking for spell it out with numbers and an objective.
personally I don't mind the nerf, I don't do nanos anymore. I just got tired of that style game play. I don't like the fact that with regards to speed you almost completely control the fight and can avoid gangs setup for you.
They just need to say what they(ccp)does and doesn't want pvp to be...
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 02:42:00 -
[2479]
Originally by: Kira Novia
Nanos -are- overpowered. I think everybody knows this to be true. How overpowered? That is open to everybodies opinion. Personally, my *only* problem with nano is a vagabond.
Funnily enough when im in BS nanoships are ones who die fastest. And ya know why? Because i have skills as a BS pilot - high enough to melt em and deny them escape. You average 4month old yoe who screams "nanos are overpowered" probably flies some shitty dominix with t1 (lvl2 hvy drone skill !! better than lv1) ogres and wonders why his medium nosf cant stop nanoship.
Agreed that "high end" speeds are screwed up (read: anything over 10-15km/s shouldnt exist maybe bar ceptors) but except for this rest is ok. But whatever - doesnt matter what CCP will do there are always tons of other ways to grief newbs.
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Subtarian
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:04:00 -
[2480]
Edited by: Subtarian on 28/07/2008 03:08:20 Edited by: Subtarian on 28/07/2008 03:06:45 I think the speed adjustments for all ships is fine. there needs to be a difference in the class of ships. But PLEASE reconsider the nerfing webs and such. This would
totally reduce the Minmatar recons to worthless. we dont use target painters on the recons, they are gimped and basically worthless. If you do go through with it, what
will be the new role of the minmatar recons and they're bonuses ? please CCP elaborate on this more.
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evilphoenix
3vil Industries Efferus Vehemens Inasnum Latrocinium
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:07:00 -
[2481]
Originally by: Ryelle (stuff...)
Now here's what I think about these arguments:
1) You can choose when to engage and when not to engage. Cloaking also lets you choose when to engage and not engage a target. Using scouts allows this as well. So does safespotting. I don't really see how this is an issue. If someone can elaborate then please do so. (more stuff)...
Lets not forget using local for intel.
Shouldn't you fix that too since that is an unintended game mechanic? --------
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Ambrosious Martin
Son of Man
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:18:00 -
[2482]
Edited by: Ambrosious Martin on 28/07/2008 03:19:57
Originally by: XxAngelxX I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again.
CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships.
Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix.
I first want to say I fully respect your post. Next I have to say that I beleive the reason the Devs are making blanket changes to a "style of play" ~NANOING, is becuase ship types and other play tactics fall short and obselete to such style. The ships you see being nanoed the most in my opinion are the ishtar and zealot, sacralidge... These are all ships that are not intended in the developers eyes to be used this way. Being able to lay down nearly 400DPS and still be moving at untouchable speeds IS unfortunatelly gamebreaking.
While I dont think the Devs are making the correct changes. I beleive there headed in the right direction. I beleive a change to missles and tracking are needed, not a change to speed. The point of nullifing damage at speeds greater than 4km/s is mute, its the application of damage that needs to be balanced.
I would like to beleive the only ships in the game meant to be speed tanked in effect are specilized ships such as the vaga, interceptors, and maybe EAS's.
I am not by anymeans an expert on EVE PVP tactics, I seem to have a very different style when it comes to gang combat. I do however have alot of experience in everything from small fleets and 1v1/solo combat. I would like to beleive the ship I have spent over a year specilizing in isnt going to become useless for its intended purpose the intricate hit and run attack.
edited out a bad try at scripting... also want to add that im a vaga pilot so that means not a nano whiner.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:21:00 -
[2483]
Originally by: Kira Novia Nanos -are- overpowered. I think everybody knows this to be true. How overpowered? That is open to everybodies opinion. Personally, my *only* problem with nano is a vagabond. The Vagabond can move as fast as an Interceptor and has way-more in the terms of firepower. That IS unbalanced. It shouldn't be possible. I yield the floor the Vaga is designed for a speed tank. But it's missing a balance.
I don't have a problem fighting them though. Because I -will- get the bastard webbed. And once he's webbed, he can't do jack-shit to me.
This entire idea has been poorly thought out by CCP.
The idea that a Vaga moves as fast as an interceptor is a fallacy. A triple OD/2x poly/T2 mwd Vaga hits about 6k. A triple OD/double poly/T2 Stiletto will be going at least 8k. Of course whether you want to rig a fragile inty is a different matter. I just leave my inties T2 mods and no rigs, they are fast enough like that.
So a couple points about the 6km/s Vaga. At the current time it costs about 190-200mil fully fitted. That is 80 for the hull, 80 for two T1 polycarbons, and say 30-40 for a T2 mod loadout and some Barrage, maybe a bit of nanite repair paste. Expensive I think you'll agree.
Caps out between 1:30 and two minutes running the mwd. Of course you only usually burst it to get in range or gtfo. It can't apply any significant dps while mwding. It has to run on normal drive at around 600m/s to do damage. At it's preferred range of about 15km (T2 webs overload to 13km now) it does reasonable dps. As you move towards the falloff range of about 20km it does less and less. After 20km the dps is negligable to anything other than say a T1 frig.
A T2 Large Neut zaps 600 cap inside it's 25km range every 24 seconds (base skills). So if a BS has a neut, you can't kill it safely, seeing as a Vaga's cap is about 1000 with a mwd on.
If they have Rapiers or Huginns in gang it's very, very risky to engage. They can web out to like 40km at a strength of 2x 90%. Hyenas are less dangerous, only webbing out to 18-20km where you can kill them, but an MSE Hyena could slow you down for long enough for something else to grab you. The double LSE tank is a decent buffer, but won't survive sustained fire. A fully webbed Vaga is a dead Vaga.
Curses or Pilgrims can cap you out very easily, leaving you pretty vunerable. Also even one or two TDs will screw over you DPS.
And of course Falcons will jam you, leaving you unable to lock anything. You could most likely hang around and wait for a failed jam cycle, or bug out if it turns bad, but you won't be able to kill anything.
Phew!! So I hope you guys realise they ain't the be and end all of combat. Cheers.
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Ambrosious Martin
Son of Man
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:22:00 -
[2484]
Originally by: slip66
Originally by: Dray
dont hide behind stupid stats and ignorance, tell us how it is, we might leave but we'd respect you for it, at least i would, so come on CCP do it, no really, do it, tell us what the bottom line is.
If you dont have the balls just f**k off and make this game exactly what you didnt intend it to be.
It might not taste nice but the truth is its own reward.
0/ Dray
Anyways, this is actually are really good point. If ccp comes out and says what their idea of pvp should be it would make it easier for people to adjust too and possibly they would get the ideas they are missing to get it there.
If there is a maximum speed they do not want players going just say it. If there is some relative balance they are looking for spell it out with numbers and an objective.
personally I don't mind the nerf, I don't do nanos anymore. I just got tired of that style game play. I don't like the fact that with regards to speed you almost completely control the fight and can avoid gangs setup for you.
They just need to say what they(ccp)does and doesn't want pvp to be...
I agree...
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:59:00 -
[2485]
Originally by: Battlecheese Everyone should stop this fud about blobs. Blobs are caused by the gate mechanic, and are present in both nano and non-nano warfare.
true, but nanogangs make smaller-scale combat feasible despite the gate mechanic.
sidenote: nozh is an idiot. -----
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praznimrak
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Posted - 2008.07.28 04:02:00 -
[2486]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Kira Novia Nanos -are- overpowered. I think everybody knows this to be true. How overpowered? That is open to everybodies opinion. Personally, my *only* problem with nano is a vagabond. The Vagabond can move as fast as an Interceptor and has way-more in the terms of firepower. That IS unbalanced. It shouldn't be possible. I yield the floor the Vaga is designed for a speed tank. But it's missing a balance.
I don't have a problem fighting them though. Because I -will- get the bastard webbed. And once he's webbed, he can't do jack-shit to me.
This entire idea has been poorly thought out by CCP.
The idea that a Vaga moves as fast as an interceptor is a fallacy. A triple OD/2x poly/T2 mwd Vaga hits about 6k. A triple OD/double poly/T2 Stiletto will be going at least 8k. Of course whether you want to rig a fragile inty is a different matter. I just leave my inties T2 mods and no rigs, they are fast enough like that.
So a couple points about the 6km/s Vaga. At the current time it costs about 190-200mil fully fitted. That is 80 for the hull, 80 for two T1 polycarbons, and say 30-40 for a T2 mod loadout and some Barrage, maybe a bit of nanite repair paste. Expensive I think you'll agree.
Caps out between 1:30 and two minutes running the mwd. Of course you only usually burst it to get in range or gtfo. It can't apply any significant dps while mwding. It has to run on normal drive at around 600m/s to do damage. At it's preferred range of about 15km (T2 webs overload to 13km now) it does reasonable dps. As you move towards the falloff range of about 20km it does less and less. After 20km the dps is negligable to anything other than say a T1 frig.
A T2 Large Neut zaps 600 cap inside it's 25km range every 24 seconds (base skills). So if a BS has a neut, you can't kill it safely, seeing as a Vaga's cap is about 1000 with a mwd on.
If they have Rapiers or Huginns in gang it's very, very risky to engage. They can web out to like 40km at a strength of 2x 90%. Hyenas are less dangerous, only webbing out to 18-20km where you can kill them, but an MSE Hyena could slow you down for long enough for something else to grab you. The double LSE tank is a decent buffer, but won't survive sustained fire. A fully webbed Vaga is a dead Vaga.
Curses or Pilgrims can cap you out very easily, leaving you pretty vunerable. Also even one or two TDs will screw over you DPS.
And of course Falcons will jam you, leaving you unable to lock anything. You could most likely hang around and wait for a failed jam cycle, or bug out if it turns bad, but you won't be able to kill anything.
Phew!! So I hope you guys realise they ain't the be and end all of combat. Cheers.
This post explains all.Game works fine the way is now working.CCP dont nerf nothing ever again.Make your game stabel and whith nice gameing expirienc.Some small spead balancing in ships class is ok,but there is not any real nead to nerf nano,or any other aspect of game.If nano is so overpowerd than PVP corps killboard woud not be full of destroed nano ships. Once more CCP dont brake this game down by introducin new stuff and puting all ships and races out of balance.You are just going to make a huge problem to your self and spend another year balancing out and resolving tha mess you gona make. Greatings
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:01:00 -
[2487]
When did CCP sell the ****ing game to EA? Because this shit is ******ed. --
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:11:00 -
[2488]
I miss Oveur and TomB a lot right now .
Click me! You know you want to... |
Taya Tal
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:13:00 -
[2489]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Originally by: Matrixcvd
SO did that 4km/s vaga not really have T2 lows but Republic fleet ODs? come on now tell us the truth, T2 polys with there 7& bonus... You can tell us you got that number right off EFT wiht all the best implants and fittings, barely broke 4km/s, and btw breaking 4km/s doesnt mean 4028m/s either.
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
Dear sir,
How many people do you think can indeed afford a full snake set, much less use their ISK to buy one?
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:16:00 -
[2490]
Edited by: Straife on 28/07/2008 05:17:10 Hey guys, someone forgot to tell PL that you can't "effectively" nano a dreadnaught. My phoenix couldn't get past 0m/s
Linkage
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Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:25:00 -
[2491]
QUESTION 1: Will a scam now be 1 point warp core + 1 point MWD damping, or will it still have 2 points of warp scram plus MWD damping?
QUESTION 2: Will a warp core stabilisers work to protect your MWD as well as the main warp core? e.g. would two WCSs neutralise a scram, 1 for warp and 1 for the MWD, or would you need 3?
QUESTION 3: Will there even be a counter module for the scram MWD effect, an MWD stabiliser if you will, and would it be high slot? :)
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Schnitzar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:31:00 -
[2492]
After thinking it over last night I'm less and less worried about these proposed changes and I'm now thinking they will really diversify fleets. Hopefully a lot of ships will now travel at a speed which medium guns can track but large cannot (right now most ships are either rocketing where nothing can hit them or web'd where everything can hit them) Command ships are going to gain more of a role because of their combination of good tracking and firepower. The same may be the case for the faster ships and assault frigs getting a role in taking them down. Right now I would almost never fly a command ship over a battleship or an assault frigs over a Cruiser. HAC's will still be able to mitigate a lot of BS damage due to small sig radius and the reduced effectiveness of webs making their tanks pretty strong. The Arazu and Lachesis get a new role which they have been begging for...
Really I can see these modifications creating a larger tradeoff between damage and tracking which will give smaller damage dealing ships a role in both small and large fleet engagements. It will also give pilots a less elaborate counter for nano's (nanoing is easy to do, it should not be so hard to counter)
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 05:42:00 -
[2493]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is the number of subscribers to eve. lol its probably gonna drop to half its current size.
This nerf will completely destroy pvp in eve. The only pvp will be laggy blobs. Can't wait. Gonna be great... I cannot believe you managed to ruin the game due to uneducated whines from people with probably very little pvp experience. Thanks again. --
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Zarathushtra
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:03:00 -
[2494]
Really, what does it matter if someone can reach ludicrous speeds? If people want to spend billions to fly omg 30k in a straight line let them. Nanogangs can be "easily" countered with neuts and proper fittings. Things are great as it is. Why to ruin everything?
Oh wait, now I got it my drake cant solo a vaga. Lets all be caldari and shoot missiles to eachothers. And so what if afterburners are useless in PVP so are tractor beams and coderbreakers.
I feel that you really should think again about this nerf. Can bunch of carebears, that have very little PVP experience, whining ruin it for everyone.
Great day to be minmatar. Cant wait when I get to choose do I fly a vaga, huginn or a rapier with this new nerf.
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Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:05:00 -
[2495]
Edited by: Evil Pookie on 28/07/2008 06:07:49
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is the number of subscribers to eve. lol its probably gonna drop to half its current size.
This nerf will completely destroy pvp in eve. The only pvp will be laggy blobs. Can't wait. Gonna be great... I cannot believe you managed to ruin the game due to uneducated whines from people with probably very little pvp experience. Thanks again.
I have, for the longest time now, argued that ccp is either incompetent or recalcitrant in their duties regarding blob warfare. A) they do not see the direct correlation between the game mechanics they implement and the way they contribute to the blob mentality (incompetance). B) CCP see the correlation between the game mechanics they implement and blob warfare and they choose NOT to make the necessary changes to combat the blob (recalcitrant - failing to do their job).
however, i think this nano nerf shows uncharacteristic insight and wisdom. This is probably because talented, intelligent people who play the game were involved in the drafting of these proposed changes. Also the fact that ZULUPARK was not involved in this project is a indicator of success also. Because lets face it, ZULUPARK is like passion fingers (everything he touches he farks).
Ohh and doin my bit to kick this ***** over 100 pages
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:21:00 -
[2496]
Well after the epic cap "fight" I had last night in 7bx i can wholeheartedly say... fix the lag, then we can talk. -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:22:00 -
[2497]
Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 28/07/2008 06:23:25 TBH i think the real thing here is that... with enough money, and skill you can make a crappy car go faster than an expensive sports car...
so in reality you should be able to spend the money and "pimp" your ride....
and you should be able to reach uncharacteristic speeds....
to those who think otherwise... in reality us nanno pilots will still be faster than you we will still catch you... and we will still continue to pimp our rides, and pwn you..
ps carebear tears are delicious...
pps if you (ccp) spent half as much time trying to fix things that effect everyone ie. lag.. you would make the game better for everyone instead of just new chars, with no skill....
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:29:00 -
[2498]
Edited by: stagz on 28/07/2008 06:29:22
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Kira Novia Nanos -are- overpowered. I think everybody knows this to be true. How overpowered? That is open to everybodies opinion. Personally, my *only* problem with nano is a vagabond. The Vagabond can move as fast as an Interceptor and has way-more in the terms of firepower. That IS unbalanced. It shouldn't be possible. I yield the floor the Vaga is designed for a speed tank. But it's missing a balance.
I don't have a problem fighting them though. Because I -will- get the bastard webbed. And once he's webbed, he can't do jack-shit to me.
This entire idea has been poorly thought out by CCP.
The idea that a Vaga moves as fast as an interceptor is a fallacy. A triple OD/2x poly/T2 mwd Vaga hits about 6k. A triple OD/double poly/T2 Stiletto will be going at least 8k. Of course whether you want to rig a fragile inty is a different matter. I just leave my inties T2 mods and no rigs, they are fast enough like that.
So a couple points about the 6km/s Vaga. At the current time it costs about 190-200mil fully fitted. That is 80 for the hull, 80 for two T1 polycarbons, and say 30-40 for a T2 mod loadout and some Barrage, maybe a bit of nanite repair paste. Expensive I think you'll agree.
Caps out between 1:30 and two minutes running the mwd. Of course you only usually burst it to get in range or gtfo. It can't apply any significant dps while mwding. It has to run on normal drive at around 600m/s to do damage. At it's preferred range of about 15km (T2 webs overload to 13km now) it does reasonable dps. As you move towards the falloff range of about 20km it does less and less. After 20km the dps is negligable to anything other than say a T1 frig.
A T2 Large Neut zaps 600 cap inside it's 25km range every 24 seconds (base skills). So if a BS has a neut, you can't kill it safely, seeing as a Vaga's cap is about 1000 with a mwd on.
If they have Rapiers or Huginns in gang it's very, very risky to engage. They can web out to like 40km at a strength of 2x 90%. Hyenas are less dangerous, only webbing out to 18-20km where you can kill them, but an MSE Hyena could slow you down for long enough for something else to grab you. The double LSE tank is a decent buffer, but won't survive sustained fire. A fully webbed Vaga is a dead Vaga.
Curses or Pilgrims can cap you out very easily, leaving you pretty vunerable. Also even one or two TDs will screw over you DPS.
And of course Falcons will jam you, leaving you unable to lock anything. You could most likely hang around and wait for a failed jam cycle, or bug out if it turns bad, but you won't be able to kill anything.
Phew!! So I hope you guys realise they ain't the be and end all of combat. Cheers.
THIS!!!!^^^^
cant stand people crying about nano ships being impossible to kill. well yeah maybe they are if you compare them to guristas.. a vaga has to get with in nuet range to tackle a bs, so nuet it... if you dont have a neut or web, thats you're fault. you dont hear people screaming nerf guristas, i fit the wrong mod so they killed me. so why are the tears over nanoing being listened to? i understand there may be issues with large ships hitting the 15k and up mark. but removing all speed based defense from the game is not the answer.
and what might i ask are Minmatar pilots supposed to do when their vagabonds, huggins and rapiers bonus's become useless? wow my speed bonus is really good now that im just as slow as other hac's oh and my extended fall off bonus is great as well now that i dont have the speed to keep at range and take advantage of it. oh my target painting bonus sure comes in handy... but more to the point my webs are absolute tops as well now that they are half as effective and practically unnecessary as everything now moves at snails pace.
blob warfare = bad why would ccp turn eve into a more blob dependant game which in turn will cause more lag. when they admit that there is a huge lag problem.
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:29:00 -
[2499]
Originally by: Dray
dont hide behind stupid stats and ignorance, tell us how it is, we might leave but we'd respect you for it, at least i would, so come on CCP do it, no really, do it, tell us what the bottom line is.
If you dont have the balls just f**k off and make this game exactly what you didnt intend it to be.
It might not taste nice but the truth is its own reward.
Boy, thats the way to get CCP to really give a $hit about what you think...by telling them to f**k off...LOL. I can see you haven't tained any type of diplomacy.
I would laugh my a$$ off if CCP now changed it all just to **** you off more!
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Zarlis
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:37:00 -
[2500]
Edited by: Zarlis on 28/07/2008 06:38:10 I'm disappointed that you are proposing that the this whole nano nerf spill over and affect the base speeds of BS and Faction BS so that they will go slower with ABs than they currently do. The problem you are trying to address is "Ludicrous Speed" as you put it and as such there is absolutely no reason why ABs on BS should get hit.
now I know someone will pull out the quote about the AB change but if you look carefully the only thing that's happening is the T1 AB is getting a slight buff but as nobody uses it its a waste even fiddling with it.
If you are unhappy with the speeds of BS and Faction BS with MWs then fix the microwarps. Just because the 1MN and 10MN T2 MWs are at 550% there is no reason why the 100MN cant be at 450% instead of 550% to cap their speed.
I see that you would like people to consider an AB for pvp and if you are actually serious about it and its not just a throwaway line then you really need to consider buffing AB not just for speed but also for acceleration so that there isnt such a massive gap between them and MWs
ABs are weak so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water and hit them when they are really needing a buff not a nerf especially if they are to be even remotely considered for a BS.
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:38:00 -
[2501]
Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 28/07/2008 06:40:17
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is the number of subscribers to eve. lol its probably gonna drop to half its current size.
This nerf will completely destroy pvp in eve. The only pvp will be laggy blobs. Can't wait. Gonna be great... I cannot believe you managed to ruin the game due to uneducated whines from people with probably very little pvp experience. Thanks again.
Destroy PVP?? you have GOT to be F**KING kidding me right?? You mean JUST like when Missles were nerfed, PVP was comming to and END!! Just like when armour and hitpoints were increased! PVP was DEAD!! You mean when ECM mods were completely changed..PVP WAS DOOMED!!
I can continue the list for a whole page!!!
Lets face it...the VAST majority of the whining is comming from those VERY people who have fricking *****ed and whined about PVP nerfs in the past and currently use NANO ship right now. And quite contrary to what some of you say, MOST alliance AND virtually ALL PVP allaince NOW use NANO ships because they KNOW they can kill much more efficiently and run away a lot easier without nearly as much risk for the reward.
Besides, all you fricking whiners always want to look over the EXPLICIT reason its getting nerfed. CCP have stated that the engine was NOT INTENDED FOR THOSE TYPES OF SPEEDS. When the F**K are you going to get that through your heads?>???????????????????????
So you can sit here and ***** about it all you want. When the GAME DEVS say it wasn't designed to work that way then all your whining and childish tantrums ISNT going to change the fact they are going to change THEIR game to the point THEY feel its more balanced.
Either LIVE with it or CANCEL your accounts and stop with the threats already. Put your mouse where your mouth is and hit cancel already. It will free up server resources for the rest of us!
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clyno
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:45:00 -
[2502]
Originally by: Jesse Jamess Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 28/07/2008 06:23:25 to those who think otherwise... in reality us nanno pilots will still be faster than you we will still catch you... and we will still continue to pimp our rides, and pwn you..
This. If you have good skills and are willing to pay loads of ISK then your pimpmobile will be faster that carebear ships, you will still catch them and you will still be able to get out of messy situations. But the difference will be reduction in your top speed, so you will be more vulnerable than you are now, so you'll have to use some common sense in deciding which targets you want to attack.
And hopefully ***as wont be able to catch rigged ceptors anymore.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:48:00 -
[2503]
Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 28/07/2008 06:50:24
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 28/07/2008 06:40:17
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is the number of subscribers to eve. lol its probably gonna drop to half its current size.
This nerf will completely destroy pvp in eve. The only pvp will be laggy blobs. Can't wait. Gonna be great... I cannot believe you managed to ruin the game due to uneducated whines from people with probably very little pvp experience. Thanks again.
Destroy PVP?? you have GOT to be F**KING kidding me right?? You mean JUST like when Missles were nerfed, PVP was comming to and END!! Just like when armour and hitpoints were increased! PVP was DEAD!! You mean when ECM mods were completely changed..PVP WAS DOOMED!!
I can continue the list for a whole page!!!
Lets face it...the VAST majority of the whining is comming from those VERY people who have fricking *****ed and whined about PVP nerfs in the past and currently use NANO ship right now. And quite contrary to what some of you say, MOST alliance AND virtually ALL PVP allaince NOW use NANO ships because they KNOW they can kill much more efficiently and run away a lot easier without nearly as much risk for the reward.
Besides, all you fricking whiners always want to look over the EXPLICIT reason its getting nerfed. CCP have stated that the engine was NOT INTENDED FOR THOSE TYPES OF SPEEDS. When the F**K are you going to get that through your heads?>???????????????????????
So you can sit here and ***** about it all you want. When the GAME DEVS say it wasn't designed to work that way then all your whining and childish tantrums ISNT going to change the fact they are going to change THEIR game to the point THEY feel its more balanced.
Either LIVE with it or CANCEL your accounts and stop with the threats already. Put your mouse where your mouth is and hit cancel already. It will free up server resources for the rest of us!
question for you m8.... do you pay to play this game?
if you pay to play... why not state your disdane for someone screwing up your fun?
the people who are complaining about nannos are people who are less than qualified pvpers... but they have their safe place to shoot pirates in empire....
leave my 0.0 alone plz
ps if i wanted to play in a huge fleet that sits on 2 sides and just lobs shots across a battlefield maybe i wouldnt be complaining... and maybe if there was less lag a large fleet engagement would be actually fun..
but as most older pvpers know.. a large fleet battle is 15 mins of module lag, some white flashes on your screen, and then you sitting in a station spinning your pod...
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.28 06:54:00 -
[2504]
Originally by: clyno
Originally by: Jesse Jamess Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 28/07/2008 06:23:25 to those who think otherwise... in reality us nanno pilots will still be faster than you we will still catch you... and we will still continue to pimp our rides, and pwn you..
This. If you have good skills and are willing to pay loads of ISK then your pimpmobile will be faster that carebear ships, you will still catch them and you will still be able to get out of messy situations. But the difference will be reduction in your top speed, so you will be more vulnerable than you are now, so you'll have to use some common sense in deciding which targets you want to attack.
And hopefully ***as wont be able to catch rigged ceptors anymore.
right cause nanno pilots dont have to be intelligent, and be wary of everything that is around them... keeping their trans fast enough, avoiding webbers, avoiding other nannos, avoiding neut boats, and overall have a larger spacial awareness than you do... (you being the 1 being ganked)
but hey i guess some people enjoy logging in undocking and clicking lock, and then f1 f2 f3 etc... and then not have to do anything untill your target is either dead or escaped... or in all likely hood if its a good nanno pilot has killed you...
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Thommy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:01:00 -
[2505]
So once more the PVP side will have consequences for the non PVP side.
I feel sorry for the people who run missions with large ships who cannot do them in smaller faster ships or are not near as effective in other ships or just dont have much skill to fly those. I flied with quite some people to help them in their missions and i usually get tired from waiting before that big slowboat of theirs arrive at the next acceleration gate so i usually proceed along to the next room if they didnt mind.
What will be the effect on missions? Will it mean even the generic missions that before took about 2 minutes to get to an gate will even with an fast setup command ship now take 3 or 4 minutes or even worse to reach? It is an choice some people made to have the best of the best speed wise even if not used for pvp but only for pve (thats why there are clones) with the best skills but not useing any overdrives or nanofibers or interia stabs but maximising their fit for max damage.
The question is not IF this will be shoved trough because i allready know for sure it will even with the 'nice' tagline that these are for now are crystal ball II idea's which are not yet ready to be put in like this.
So an promise can be made that this will indeed affect mwd-rig-nano-inertia-overdrive pvp'ers and not have terrible bearing consequences for the non-mwd-rig-nano-inertia-overdrive-but-afterburner useing pvp / pve'ers? This is what i make up from it since this is all aimed at the MWD module.
I hope an good and not very dissapointing balance can be reached here because there have been many before which seemed to be good but turned out much worse because of overnerf!
Im not even sure ccp wil read this but please do not just think about the PVP'ers but also those who mix pvp with pve or for those that do not do any pvp at all. Yes i know EvE its focus is arround pvp but as long as there is pve content in the game it cannot be denied there will be people that do not take part in the design etique.
Guide | Patch day |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:20:00 -
[2506]
hmm you ppl who are anti this proposed nerf must not really care. The Carrier Threadnaught made it to 100pages soo much faster than this.
That said, I support the general ideas behind this proposed change, and await feedback from SiSi trials. Most of you who have your undies in a twist are bent up over stuff you misread in the blog.
--
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1Of9
Gallente The Circle STYX.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:24:00 -
[2507]
Now that i have ur attention, let me just say that, maybe this nerf is too much at once, specially the blasterboats subnerf and the rapiers, but nano's are too overpowered.
Plz CCP, dont give up on this. Fix this nano crap.!
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Hi Lo
Faulty Solutions
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:40:00 -
[2508]
if I had any input on this blog it would just make the other comments redundant.
CCP needs to think about the reason why things are why they are and not just consider it a bad thing, ie blobing. saying guerilla warfare would be kept intact put me at ease a bit, but not totally. i think light missles and drones should be balenced more toward accuracy and a bit away from DPS. that would solve a big issue w.o creating too many new ones or power voids/overbalancing.
Thanks for listening CCP Karl Kopalnia > omg Hi Lo is the name I use for all my gaming characters for 15 years--you're the one that took it :*( |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:42:00 -
[2509]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 28/07/2008 07:42:39
Originally by: slip66
Originally by: Dray
dont hide behind stupid stats and ignorance, tell us how it is, we might leave but we'd respect you for it, at least i would, so come on CCP do it, no really, do it, tell us what the bottom line is.
If you dont have the balls just f**k off and make this game exactly what you didnt intend it to be.
It might not taste nice but the truth is its own reward.
0/ Dray
Anyways, this is actually are really good point. If ccp comes out and says what their idea of pvp should be it would make it easier for people to adjust too and possibly they would get the ideas they are missing to get it there.
If there is a maximum speed they do not want players going just say it. If there is some relative balance they are looking for spell it out with numbers and an objective.
personally I don't mind the nerf, I don't do nanos anymore. I just got tired of that style game play. I don't like the fact that with regards to speed you almost completely control the fight and can avoid gangs setup for you.
They just need to say what they(ccp)does and doesn't want pvp to be...
They, they did say it in the blog. They stated that cruisers shouldn't be going faster than medium drones, inties faster than light dornes, etc...
The stats of missiles and tracking guides are also a good way to see where speed tanking start getting in the "not intended" zone... ------------------------------------------
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:43:00 -
[2510]
Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized.
The same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:49:00 -
[2511]
Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 07:50:09 The problem with speed right now is the average fit can easily get speeds and passive tanks high enough to combat too many obstacles w/o fear of heavy loss.
I do not mind watching an alliance get camped into their home system by 20 people. I do mind that there is very little they can do about removing those people from local beyond besting their speed setup to even have a chance at catching them.
Speed goes in the same category as what cloaks should be, they should be good short term tools, ie 15-20 min.
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
I do think that to counter this speed nerf, CCP needs to Implement removal of the ability to both cyno jam a system while still allowing jump bridges. Alliances should have to choose one or the other.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:53:00 -
[2512]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 28/07/2008 07:53:54
Originally by: Sweet Rosella Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized.
The same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute, same attribute
Oh ye. Same attribute. We are waiting for somebody starting crying hardly for shield extender and shield rigs stacking penalty against passive tank or 1600 plates stacking penalty, right ? :D
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Destructor1792
Minmatar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:54:00 -
[2513]
Okay - First things first.. You DO NOT brainstorm for 5 hours about speed & suddenly have changes going LIVE on TQ shortly after! BULLCR@P!! Due to the amount of coding changes, this would have been in the pipeline for quite a few months.
Secondly - Matrix.. yes you.. take your stupid corp/alliance bashing elsewhere. Post with your main, post valid arguments for & against or just STFU!!
Thirdly - TIME TO BAN GTC sales & remove half these idiots from the game who want it to a be a simple F1-F8 exercise. 90% of the populas has a credit card or DD account of some sort so really no need for them anymore. What's this ? you're only 13 and have no income? TOUGH. The game is not WOW or COD4 and requires a BRAIN to play.
Right, that's the daily rant out the way.. back on topic...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh
Polycarbs overpowered ? Myself, along with over half the players agree with this yet why were changes not introduced when this became obvious? C'mon - how long have they been in the game for now??
So now lets look at what "The Devs" don't like: BLOBS - reasons being that it crashes the nodes & they haven't figured out how to get around this yet! The BLOB will always exist as this is a MMOG and people like to fly around with others whether that be corp or alliance mates.. Not much you can do with that expect sort the servers out to be able to handle your "so called" vision of massive lag free encounters.
SPEED - the ability to manual pilot a ship instead of clicking "orbit at" or "approach", being able to dictate when to engage or GTFO of dodge, able to roam deep into hostile teritory causing all sorts of mayhem. Maybe you should explain why you hate it so much & as previously asked, what "YOUR" vision of PVP is?
I've stated once how to solve the issue of ships going Ludicrous speeds so for those that missed it:
ADD a bit of code that caps the max speed of each ship. e.g. (using minny here.. biased i know ) Vaga -
- max speed attainable = 6,500m/s (includes gang bonuses, maxed skills, mods, etc)
- High grade implant set = +5% max speed attainable bonus
- TOTAL max speed acheivable = 6,825m/s
That's just an example but much easier than messing about with what scrams & webs do & all the unforseen consequences of the proposed *cough* changes.
When (and not If) the changes do go live, this is how i see 0.0 PvP fleets:
Lots of EWAR HIC or another heavy tanker c/w cyno MASSIVE CAP FLEET on standby ready to pop those one or two cruiser / BS
or
Roaming gang, mix of ships all fitted with a cloak why ? any FC ain't gonna risk the wrath of running into another gate blob with bugger all chance of burning out.. safer to SS & cloak up or head back!
Empire PVP will remain unchanged with the majority of people station hugging & continually undocking/docking til the odds are in their favour to attack
Think i've covered just about everything.. ahh.. one more thing.. MAKE EACH RACE EXCLUSIVE.. i.e. A race should be able to do 1 or 2 things great. Create clear definitions of what each is capable of so if someone wants to do pure close up damage they go Gallente. Wanna own some in a your cap ? go Amarr. get the picture?
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______________________________________
Bringing The Fun Back
I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak. |
Hans Angry
Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:09:00 -
[2514]
why does ccp always have to nerf shit that isnt broken, webs, disruptors, and mwds have been fine the way they are for the past year if not more, why not leave them? Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:17:00 -
[2515]
Originally by: Destructor1792 Okay - First things first.. You DO NOT brainstorm for 5 hours about speed & suddenly have changes going LIVE on TQ shortly after! BULLCR@P!! Due to the amount of coding changes, this would have been in the pipeline for quite a few months.
Secondly - Matrix.. yes you.. take your stupid corp/alliance bashing elsewhere. Post with your main, post valid arguments for & against or just STFU!!
Thirdly - TIME TO BAN GTC sales & remove half these idiots from the game who want it to a be a simple F1-F8 exercise. 90% of the populas has a credit card or DD account of some sort so really no need for them anymore. What's this ? you're only 13 and have no income? TOUGH. The game is not WOW or COD4 and requires a BRAIN to play.
Right, that's the daily rant out the way.. back on topic...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8923/abmwdjo1.jpg
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:20:00 -
[2516]
Originally by: Destructor1792 ...some bolded stuff...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh ... I did read the rest but ...
Awww so my salvager ship that has had a mwd and ab, online, for ages now, doesn't actually exist and is uber hax0r? For someone who apparently doesn't know certain things you certainly shout loudly about knowing those things..
It's perfectly legal and possible to fit both an AB and MWD. You can't have them activated at the same time, sure, but fitted and online, no problem.
These discussions really do not benefit from this type of ignorance.
In other news, please CCP, make a nice announcement and lets have a few balanced and planned SiSi tests, the best way to test this stuff is not by a bunch of old guys (like me) flying around solo in t2 rigged, snake setted faction hacs, but by getting some nano groups to fight ..
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:21:00 -
[2517]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka
Originally by: Destructor1792 ...some bolded stuff...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh ... I did read the rest but ...
Awww so my salvager ship that has had a mwd and ab, online, for ages now, doesn't actually exist and is uber hax0r? For someone who apparently doesn't know certain things you certainly shout loudly about knowing those things..
It's perfectly legal and possible to fit both an AB and MWD. You can't have them activated at the same time, sure, but fitted and online, no problem.
These discussions really do not benefit from this type of ignorance.
In other news, please CCP, make a nice announcement and lets have a few balanced and planned SiSi tests, the best way to test this stuff is not by a bunch of old guys (like me) flying around solo in t2 rigged, snake setted faction hacs, but by getting some nano groups to fight ..
We already know how it affects nanoships, they're butchered and broken after this, we cannot test small gang warfare under the conditions that TQ offers because there aint titans, caps, hotdrops, jumpbridges etc. etc. there spread over large areas filled with people with the same mentality as on TQ. Can't be tested,
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:24:00 -
[2518]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Destructor1792 Okay - First things first.. You DO NOT brainstorm for 5 hours about speed & suddenly have changes going LIVE on TQ shortly after! BULLCR@P!! Due to the amount of coding changes, this would have been in the pipeline for quite a few months.
Secondly - Matrix.. yes you.. take your stupid corp/alliance bashing elsewhere. Post with your main, post valid arguments for & against or just STFU!!
Thirdly - TIME TO BAN GTC sales & remove half these idiots from the game who want it to a be a simple F1-F8 exercise. 90% of the populas has a credit card or DD account of some sort so really no need for them anymore. What's this ? you're only 13 and have no income? TOUGH. The game is not WOW or COD4 and requires a BRAIN to play.
Right, that's the daily rant out the way.. back on topic...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8923/abmwdjo1.jpg
Owned.
C.
Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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Destructor1792
Minmatar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:28:00 -
[2519]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka
Originally by: Destructor1792 ...some bolded stuff...
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh ... I did read the rest but ...
Awww so my salvager ship that has had a mwd and ab, online, for ages now, doesn't actually exist and is uber hax0r? For someone who apparently doesn't know certain things you certainly shout loudly about knowing those things..
It's perfectly legal and possible to fit both an AB and MWD. You can't have them activated at the same time, sure, but fitted and online, no problem.
These discussions really do not benefit from this type of ignorance.
In other news, please CCP, make a nice announcement and lets have a few balanced and planned SiSi tests, the best way to test this stuff is not by a bunch of old guys (like me) flying around solo in t2 rigged, snake setted faction hacs, but by getting some nano groups to fight ..
Hooked, lined, sinker, copy of angling times - We have a bite Good to see some people do actually read posts ______________________________________
Bringing The Fun Back
I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak. |
Drgnvale
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:37:00 -
[2520]
I might have missed this somewhere in the dev blog, but is there a specific time today that the new patch will be on sisi? I'm anxious to see just how bad things are.
Also, that Matrix guy is pretty obviously trolling you all, and you're pretty horrible at the internet for falling for it so completely.
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:37:00 -
[2521]
Monday is here and you can all test out your new 7.5km/22.5km nanostoppers... lol
What a nanoboost. I can't believe all CCP want us to fly is nanoboats :( |
Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:40:00 -
[2522]
100k views. Impressive. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:44:00 -
[2523]
Edited by: Hul''ka on 28/07/2008 08:44:15 sooooo, monday is here, when will this failure of a patch be deployed on SISI?
Really really want to see how bad you screwed things up with this.. --------- I want to phew phew
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Unreal5
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:50:00 -
[2524]
Poasting in ze nano emo thread.
nano tears make baby jebus smile!
It's hard if you'd have to actually have some skillz to fly nano huh? So if you all nanoemorage kids quit eve, can i have your stuffs? plx! ASD |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:08:00 -
[2525]
Originally by: Destructor1792
Quote: By CCP Nozh Who knows? We might even see some crazy setups where both afterburners and MWDs are utilized
Err, the ability to fit an AB and MWD at the same time was removed from the game quite a few years back.. If you expect people to fit both then have to offline one to online another.. hehe.. really shows you don't play eh
Actually, it was the ability to activate both MWD and AB that was removed. I have a ship setup that has both AB and MWD fitted, and you can definitely have them both online at once, and activate whichever one you want in a situation. Given the above changes, it wouldn't be unreasonable to MWD into scram range and then switch to AB to keep range if/when your MWD gets disabled.
Anyway, having just moved and not having internet at home yet, I've had a couple of days to think these changes over without knee-jerk posting, and come up with some ideas about how it will impact on combat. And, I have to say, I like where it's heading.
Currently speed is an all-or-nothing thing - and a lot of this is due to the savageness of webs; currently, if you get webbed, any ability to dictate range and use speed to avoid turret damage is pretty much gone. Thus your options were either to go tank and gank, wade into web range and slug it out, or go all-out nano to avoid web-range at all costs. Bringing webs down to 50% speed reduction (still pretty significant) means that it is still possible to use higher speed to your advantage within web range, when previously (currently) getting webbed made speed more or less a non-issue and you were just trading damage vs. tank at that point.
Of course, 50% webs make speed difficult to affect on your opponent - so scrams turning off MWDs is actually pretty elegant, in many ways. First off, and the most basic, is that a scram and web will reduce a MWD ship to lower speed (half base speed) than a scram + web would have previously (10% full speed). So in terms of simply being able to keep ships stationary, the options are still definitely there. However, it now introduces a lot more tradeoffs - fit the scram for shutting down MWDs and applying two points, but at closer range, or keep the longer-range disruptor to stop enemies warping quicker, but use more cap and have no ability to shut down a MWD ship that comes close to you? And likewise, fit a MWD for higher top speeds and getting around ability, or fit the AB for a persistent speed boost that can be used within scram range?
It works really nicely with the rock-paper-scissors nature, as regarding speeds, MWD (unscrammed) > AB (any state) > MWD (scrammed). AB frigates in particular, with scrams, will now become a lot more viable as tacklers, as they'll be able to get into web range without it meaning automatic death for them - and imagine how much more cap they will have available to actually do things, without the MWD and long-range point. It might even be worth tanking them too, as they'll still be fast enough when webbed to mitigate a lot of damage from larger turrets and missiles. Light drones will, however, still wreck their day - so I can see that it might even encourage dedicated anti-drone ships such as destroyers to support the tacklers by taking out drones from long range (whereas currently, this isn't worthwhile as a webbed frigate will generally die to the webbing ship anyway).
And on the other changes, these are basically just rationalising base speeds, and reducing the effectiveness of speed mods overall due to either lower basic effectiveness (polycarbs) or increased stacking (nanos). This is fine again, since nano ships will still be faster than other ships, so still able to retain the tactical option to disengage, but are no longer immune to missiles and light drones - so their decision to trade off damage and tank against speed will be something that needs to be carefully weighed up. They'll be able to engage in hit-and-run tactics just fine, but against larger more powerful opponents they may well be forced off before they can inflict as much damage as they would like. Again, I consider this to be pretty balanced. This isn't so much the death of nanos, as it is an additional counter to nanos (missiles and light drones) that could previously be completely negated by the nanoships.
Of course with such a wide-ranging change, it will remain to be seen how things play out in practice. But I see a the possibility of a brighter future than the posters who have said combat will just be RR battleship gangs. There are now many more trade-offs and tactical options to be explored, such that I expect competant FCs will be able to bring a wider range of counters to the table. Importantly, it looks as if ABs and scrams will be viable alternatives to MWDs and disruptors in mainstream combat, which is excellent. I look forward to seeing how it all comes together.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:15:00 -
[2526]
Where is test server patch it should be there already
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:25:00 -
[2527]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Where is test server patch it should be there already
neeeeeeeeeeeed sisi patch...now! wanna test
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:39:00 -
[2528]
It would be interesting if CCP introduced racial webbers as the ships after all have stats for it. Say a racial webber would do 80% effect on the inteded propulsion type and 20% on the incorrect type. The multispec webbers would do 50% to all races.
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Brayiel
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:48:00 -
[2529]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana It would be interesting if CCP introduced racial webbers as the ships after all have stats for it. Say a racial webber would do 80% effect on the inteded propulsion type and 20% on the incorrect type. The multispec webbers would do 50% to all races.
If you look in the Item DB (out dated I know) there is a statistic for racial propulsion strengths. It's redundant, and from what I can remember way back they were hoping to have specific racial modules for engines.
e.g.
The Ares has an Ion Propulsion strength of 5.
But then there are a lot of redundant statistics etc. floating around. Like back in the day when Tactical Shield Manipulation was going to prevent shield and armour piercing ammo.
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Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:26:00 -
[2530]
Edited by: Shinigami on 28/07/2008 10:25:57 I would love it if they would focus on removing lag, boring timesinks, and revamping sov for the next 12 months. Introducing changes like this without tackling the major problems is pointless.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:34:00 -
[2531]
Originally by: Yaay
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
Maybe somebody who thinks of himself as such a great FC could enlighten us on how to counter a hostile blob jumping over a roaming gang in their systems to the constellation choke point with caps and other ships (maybe even a titan or 4), then putting a shed load of bubbles all over the gate?.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:46:00 -
[2532]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Yaay
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
Maybe somebody who thinks of himself as such a great FC could enlighten us on how to counter a hostile blob jumping over a roaming gang in their systems to the constellation choke point with caps and other ships (maybe even a titan or 4), then putting a shed load of bubbles all over the gate?.
That's very dependant on what both you and they have though.
One obvious step would be covops and flybys to give you warp in point then harass the gatecampers with snipers (warp in, snipe one target, warp out).
Or be flying a recon gang and just cloak past them.
Or a black ops one and cyno jump past.
Etc.
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Ithrinim
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:48:00 -
[2533]
Edited by: Ithrinim on 28/07/2008 10:48:59 Are we saying here that roaming gangs shouldn't be able to be caught in hostile sovereign space?
Cos that's how it sounds to me, and that statement in itself is quite ridiculous.
You enter a bottleneck constellation and start killing, and expect to be able to leave without consequence? Funny Funny Funny.
EDIT:
Maybe, just maybe, that's what Black Ops are for.... (with a slight tweak/buff)
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:51:00 -
[2534]
I was taking a look at this version of the speed chart (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0807/speed_nerf_comparison.jpg, just both of them put side by side on same graph) and I noticed a few things.
1. These graphs seem to be slightly confusing on the actual numbers. It would help if ccp said what setup they used on these ships, or what the skills of the pilot are. I did a quick calculation on slasher with just t2 mwd (no other speed mods) and max skills and I got 4035m/s where graph shows max frigate is about 3750. I'm wondering how the republic firetail (fastest faction frigate in game) which with no speed mods, max skill and a single t2 mwd should have speed of around 3681m/s yet faction frigates max speed is shown to be under 3000/ms
2. A lot of the sections are a lot more squeezed together now (for example frigates). This means that the fastest ships will be going slower obviously, but also the slower ships are getting a lot faster. How/why are these slow ships getting that much faster? I'm assuming that the slowest ship for frigs is probably the merlin or some similar slow frigate, this ship with mwd is now around 700m/s (40%) faster than it was pre-nerf.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:54:00 -
[2535]
Originally by: Typhado3 I was taking a look at this version of the speed chart (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0807/speed_nerf_comparison.jpg, just both of them put side by side on same graph) and I noticed a few things.
1. These graphs seem to be slightly confusing on the actual numbers. It would help if ccp said what setup they used on these ships, or what the skills of the pilot are. I did a quick calculation on slasher with just t2 mwd (no other speed mods) and max skills and I got 4035m/s where graph shows max frigate is about 3750. I'm wondering how the republic firetail (fastest faction frigate in game) which with no speed mods, max skill and a single t2 mwd should have speed of around 3681m/s yet faction frigates max speed is shown to be under 3000/ms
2. A lot of the sections are a lot more squeezed together now (for example frigates). This means that the fastest ships will be going slower obviously, but also the slower ships are getting a lot faster. How/why are these slow ships getting that much faster? I'm assuming that the slowest ship for frigs is probably the merlin or some similar slow frigate, this ship with mwd is now around 700m/s (40%) faster than it was pre-nerf.
My guess is the numbers have been fiddled to "prove" the guy's reasons for the nerf.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:54:00 -
[2536]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
The only thing you need to keep a close eye on is the number of subscribers to eve. lol its probably gonna drop to half its current size.
This nerf will completely destroy pvp in eve. The only pvp will be laggy blobs. Can't wait. Gonna be great... I cannot believe you managed to ruin the game due to uneducated whines from people with probably very little pvp experience. Thanks again.
LOL do you really think nano users represent more than 2-3 % of the total playerbase? LOOOOOOLLLL!!!!!!
NANO users represent the majority of the PVP player base and as this nerf does not effect miners, mission runners or ratters id say they should be the ones who have the say in the matter.
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:00:00 -
[2537]
Edited by: Kern Hotha on 28/07/2008 11:01:05 All the changes sound good except the webifier one. If the intent is to encourage combat at slower speeds, why diminish the module that makes combat happen at slower speeds?
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Ithrinim
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:02:00 -
[2538]
The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
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Birdynumnum
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:04:00 -
[2539]
Speed has needed to be nerfed somehow for a while. There is one aspect of these changes however that I completely do not get the point of. Microwarpdrives will all have the same speed bonus and only differ in fittings/reactivation delay and cap penalty/usage. This doesn't seem to do anything but make high end faction mwd's pointless.
- Tech II MWD is reasonably easy to fit already negating fitting
- Tech II MWD is reasonably easy to permarun negating cap penalty/usage
- If you require your MWD to survive (ceptors) then whether it is knocked off for 2 seconds or 1,000,000 seconds, your pretty much dead negating the reactivation timer
I personally think MWD's should keep there variations in speed bonus. I totally agree that it is stupid having ships so fast that there is no viable tactics to counter them but at the same time, there should be a worthwhile point to spending those extra ISK to fit higher quality modules.
I guess my question is are lowend MWDS (Tech 1, named and Tech II) going to be nerfed in line with this? Is the cap penalty/activation going to be increased on lowend MWD's for example! TBH I hope this specific change does not make it live though I do agree with the idea behind most of these changes!
My Vids |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:04:00 -
[2540]
Originally by: Ravil Thon
Originally by: Mashie Saldana It would be interesting if CCP introduced racial webbers as the ships after all have stats for it. Say a racial webber would do 80% effect on the inteded propulsion type and 20% on the incorrect type. The multispec webbers would do 50% to all races.
Well, thats certainly a better idea than the overall nerf to webs. No need for a multispec though. Correct racial web = 80% incorrect racial web = 50%. Its not like a web should be as specialized as the far more effective ECM.
mhhhmmmmm I am starting to LIKE this idea very much :-) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Ithrinim
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:05:00 -
[2541]
After digesting the changes, only one further change is needed to remove nano immunity to death.
Warp scrambling/disrupting prevents use of gates.
Otherwise, it's near impossible to prevent MWD-slide back through gate.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:06:00 -
[2542]
Im not a great fun of nanoships. I think that if there are just 1-2 possibilities to counter a ship, there is something wrong.
But other hand if u nerf nanoships under a certain level, would be useless to nano a ship and so the last type of smallgang pvp would die.
This would be sad but not tragical if the system u made could handle blobs, what can't!!!!!! In empire lowsecs even if u sitting in an SS and u "blobbed" by 20 ships u become a lag where u see after 5 min u already dead.
So if u destroy nanoships at least fix lag because at the moment the funny part of the game(pvp) is unplayable without nanos!!!!
Seems devs want us to missioning and farming in 90% of evetime to get money for ships which would be popped in blobs without be able to activate any module......
Have fun.....this game would day to day worst :(
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:06:00 -
[2543]
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Hello Ithrinim, unknown member of probably an NPC corp with zero killboard exposure. Thank you for telling people with years of experience what roaming gangs are supposed to be. Your insight is deep and broad and certainly worth listening to.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:10:00 -
[2544]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 11:13:42
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Borders?..Supply routes?..with jump bridges and cyno jammers?.
Nano pilots want to fly in gangs that do more than sit opposite another gang and hit f1-f8 bud.
While carebears like you want there home systems to be like empire. Cake and eat it indeed.
Thanks for at least clearing up the definition of the word r*tard for us.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:12:00 -
[2545]
Originally by: Typhado3 I was taking a look at this version of the speed chart (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0807/speed_nerf_comparison.jpg, just both of them put side by side on same graph) and I noticed a few things.
1. These graphs seem to be slightly confusing on the actual numbers. It would help if ccp said what setup they used on these ships, or what the skills of the pilot are. I did a quick calculation on slasher with just t2 mwd (no other speed mods) and max skills and I got 4035m/s where graph shows max frigate is about 3750. I'm wondering how the republic firetail (fastest faction frigate in game) which with no speed mods, max skill and a single t2 mwd should have speed of around 3681m/s yet faction frigates max speed is shown to be under 3000/ms
2. A lot of the sections are a lot more squeezed together now (for example frigates). This means that the fastest ships will be going slower obviously, but also the slower ships are getting a lot faster. How/why are these slow ships getting that much faster? I'm assuming that the slowest ship for frigs is probably the merlin or some similar slow frigate, this ship with mwd is now around 700m/s (40%) faster than it was pre-nerf.
ah thanks for the chart, I was too lazy to create one myself :-)
I think CCP forgot to exempt the speed bonused ships from comparison and they are screwing the max attainable speed for each class (and by speed bonused I mean all the ships that had a speed bonus and were changed in the past).
so each class slowest ship is on par with next class fastest (or a slight overlap). this is not that bad an idea, but then tracking needs to be revisited too I think. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:14:00 -
[2546]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:14:24
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 07:50:09 The problem with speed right now is the average fit can easily get speeds and passive tanks high enough to combat too many obstacles w/o fear of heavy loss.
I do not mind watching an alliance get camped into their home system by 20 people. I do mind that there is very little they can do about removing those people from local beyond besting their speed setup to even have a chance at catching them.
Speed goes in the same category as what cloaks should be, they should be good short term tools, ie 15-20 min.
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
I do think that to counter this speed nerf, CCP needs to Implement removal of the ability to both cyno jam a system while still allowing jump bridges. Alliances should have to choose one or the other.
How to kill a nanogang in your home system.
1: Interdictors/Heavy Interdictors 2: Rapiers/Huginns 3: A little DPS. 4: Engage enemy 5: Profit
Kindly shut the **** up.
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Dana Serenity
Caldari Guerillaz
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:18:00 -
[2547]
Originally by: Ithrinim After digesting the changes, only one further change is needed to remove nano immunity to death.
Warp scrambling/disrupting prevents use of gates.
Otherwise, it's near impossible to prevent MWD-slide back through gate.
Sorry bud I have to disagree with you there. Gatecamps should never be 100% unescapable. That would probably be worse than nano's already are. Yes a nano can turn and burn back to the gate and jump.. but they can just as easily bounce off the gate (Killed a few nanoships due to that happening ) The changes to scramblers already suggested by CCP will make gatecamps tougher to escape... Lets not make them unescapable completely
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:19:00 -
[2548]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 11:20:29 You don't even need a rapier and huginn or new Arazu to kill the slower nano hacs currently (Ishtar, Sac, Zealot). I've had my Sacrilege (going 4500m/s mind you) completely ****d by a Dominix with T2 sentries in less than 30 seconds, whilst being completely unwebbed. I've had my Vaga going 5200 hit with 500 damage hits from a Sacrilege. Warrior 2s will catch and barbecue an Ishtar. That's without ECM or Neuts even. ECM + Tacklers + Heavy Neuts/Curses = dead HAC. This is not complex.
'There is no counter' is a complete ****ing myth, and the fact that CCP is trying to parrot it back at us shows they either don't care and want to do this no matter what their playerbase say, or that they're too stupid to know it.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:23:00 -
[2549]
Originally by: Damned Force Im not a great fun of nanoships. I think that if there are just 1-2 possibilities to counter a ship, there is something wrong. (
What are solutions for blobing? Bigger blob or nano - only 2 solutions. what is the solution for ECM? Blob or ECM - only 2 solutions What is solution for nano? Nano, ECM, Neut, pulses, RR - counted 5
If there are only 1-2 possible solutions for a problem, invent some more, don't nbernerf the problem (small nerf for polies is welcome, but then you should consider what they are beeing made of so you won't have overpised t2 nanofiber) --------- I want to phew phew
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:23:00 -
[2550]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 11:20:29 You don't even need a rapier and huginn or new Arazu to kill the slower nano hacs currently (Ishtar, Sac, Zealot). I've had my Sacrilege (going 4500m/s mind you) completely ****d by a Dominix with T2 sentries in less than 30 seconds, whilst being completely unwebbed. I've had my Vaga going 5200 hit with 500 damage hits from a Sacrilege. Warrior 2s will catch and barbecue an Ishtar. That's without ECM or Neuts even. ECM + Tacklers + Heavy Neuts/Curses = dead HAC. This is not complex.
'There is no counter' is a complete ****ing myth, and the fact that CCP is trying to parrot it back at us shows they either don't care and want to do this no matter what their playerbase say, or that they're too stupid to know it.
Very true. Btw, 5200 m/s Vaga? Lolnoob
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:24:00 -
[2551]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 11:25:23 I was orbiting at 21km dude, I don't have a Snakeset or rogues, any faction/deadspace gear, T2 rigs (lol ccp), what do you expect? It supposedly goes 6500 straightline, but again, STRAIGHTLINE EFT SPEED IS NOT REAL WORLD ORBIT SPEED
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:25:00 -
[2552]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 11:20:29 You don't even need a rapier and huginn or new Arazu to kill the slower nano hacs currently (Ishtar, Sac, Zealot). I've had my Sacrilege (going 4500m/s mind you) completely ****d by a Dominix with T2 sentries in less than 30 seconds, whilst being completely unwebbed. I've had my Vaga going 5200 hit with 500 damage hits from a Sacrilege. Warrior 2s will catch and barbecue an Ishtar. That's without ECM or Neuts even. ECM + Tacklers + Heavy Neuts/Curses = dead HAC. This is not complex.
'There is no counter' is a complete ****ing myth, and the fact that CCP is trying to parrot it back at us shows they either don't care and want to do this no matter what their playerbase say, or that they're too stupid to know it.
Very true. Btw, 5200 m/s Vaga? Lolnoob
yep "noob dont have all 5 + snakes"
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:28:00 -
[2553]
All the people that keep saying "there shouldnt be ships that have no effective tactics to counter them" in justifying why ships shouldnt do 15-20km/s+ are idiots, a huginn/rapier with two webs fitted (standard fit) will ruin these ships day without any problem at all. A curse with a few neuts near the huginn/rapier will cause that ship to be dead in the water.
For example:
20km/s -> 2x90% webs -> 200m/s
then
curse neuts said ship -> ~10m/s
Now if you can't kill a ship doin 10m/s then you shouldnt play eve, simple as.
As has been said many times by the devs. Eve is meant to be a dark harsh world which is difficult to make your way in. Why on earth would you nerf things to make it easier? If anything you should be making the game even harder!
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:29:00 -
[2554]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:30:40 Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:30:20 Well I hit 7k with gang bonus and T2 fit/polycarbons no implants. That is max skills though. I'm just sad I will never get to fly with a Claymore and/or blow all my money on Gisti and RF mods and Rogues.
Speed is fun, and I ain't ashamed to say it. But yeah of course I don't try and orbit with mwd on, much less do any damage.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:31:00 -
[2555]
Originally by: Tomic All the people that keep saying "there shouldnt be ships that have no effective tactics to counter them" in justifying why ships shouldnt do 15-20km/s+ are idiots, a huginn/rapier with two webs fitted (standard fit) will ruin these ships day without any problem at all. A curse with a few neuts near the huginn/rapier will cause that ship to be dead in the water.
For example:
20km/s -> 2x90% webs -> 200m/s
then
curse neuts said ship -> ~10m/s
Now if you can't kill a ship doin 10m/s then you shouldnt play eve, simple as.
As has been said many times by the devs. Eve is meant to be a dark harsh world which is difficult to make your way in. Why on earth would you nerf things to make it easier? If anything you should be making the game even harder!
/signed
Nice to see somebody who knows how to fly ships instead of just knowing how to hit f1-f8.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:31:00 -
[2556]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 11:31:11
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Well I hit 7k with gang bonus and T1 fit/polycarbons no implants. That is max skills though. I'm just sad I will never get to fly with a Claymore and/or blow all my money on Gisti and RF mods and Rogues.
Speed is fun, and I ain't ashamed to say it.
Hit me up ingame about the flying with the claymore, if you have the sec status to get into an 0.5
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:34:00 -
[2557]
Oh, cool. Will do.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:41:00 -
[2558]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 11:42:26
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Lets hope that CCP sticks to its guns and doesnt give in to the whine. This thread is just full of the stupid crap that the forum warriors used to take the **** out of mercilessly, except now the forum warriors are the ones getting their ships nerfed and are spouting the "EVE will be dead if you do this" crap and similar. Just unsubscribe already you numptys.
We all know that nanoing up a ship is (soon to be 'was') more effective than WCS ever were, its going to be fun seeing killboards full of dead "used-to-be-nano-fitting HAC's.
Nerf them nanos CCP, nerf them gooood
0 losses 0 kills ever why do you even care?.
Oh look another non-pvper with a bit of venom to spit out.
PS: YAAAAAAAAAAY top of page 100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:42:00 -
[2559]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Lets hope that CCP sticks to its guns and doesnt give in to the whine. This thread is just full of the stupid crap that the forum warriors used to take the **** out of mercilessly, except now the forum warriors are the ones getting their ships nerfed and are spouting the "EVE will be dead if you do this" crap and similar. Just unsubscribe already you numptys.
We all know that nanoing up a ship is (soon to be 'was') more effective than WCS ever were, its going to be fun seeing killboards full of dead "used-to-be-nano-fitting HAC's.
Nerf them nanos CCP, nerf them gooood
0 losses 0 kill ever why do you even care?.
Oh look another non pvper with a bit of venom to spit out.
hahahaha ... I laugh in your general direction epeen measurer |
Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:43:00 -
[2560]
Originally by: Arctur Ceti Pardon my silly question, but I specialize in Gallente ships. Is there any agile Gallente ship I could use to kill a nano and not just have it warp away?
It's a little tricky using only Gallente. Best bet is probably a BS, fit a couple of Large Neuts. Let him get in his comfort zone, start doing some damage to you. Then make sure you are moving in a direction at max speed with mwd on. Hit the Neuts, overload MWD and Web at 13km and you should be able to grab him.
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BlondieBC
Minmatar 7th Tribal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:43:00 -
[2561]
I would like to see afterburners and microwarp drives moved to the low slot. This is not a nerf, but an adjustment, and should be better for the game. With this done, you have removed one module from all speed tanks.
Also, it just makes sense. If ewar is mid slots only, why are the speed items split?
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:44:00 -
[2562]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Hello Ithrinim, unknown member of probably an NPC corp with zero killboard exposure. Thank you for telling people with years of experience what roaming gangs are supposed to be. Your insight is deep and broad and certainly worth listening to.
Do your research - ie click Ithrinim - He's in a corp, matey. Here's my Main. Very successful pirate, billions in the Bank. Been playing since the start, done 0.0 and hated it, now pirating whenever I'm logged on.
Without Nano ships.
Who's the ****** now?
Oh and I'm sure you can find our killboard if you look hard enough.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:44:00 -
[2563]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Arctur Ceti Pardon my silly question, but I specialize in Gallente ships. Is there any agile Gallente ship I could use to kill a nano and not just have it warp away?
It's a little tricky using only Gallente. Best bet is probably a BS, fit a couple of Large Neuts. Let him get in his comfort zone, start doing some damage to you. Then make sure you are moving in a direction at max speed with mwd on. Hit the Neuts, overload MWD and Web at 13km and you should be able to grab him.
This has all been tested and works fine in la-la land. Unfortunately in tranquility you are stuffed. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:45:00 -
[2564]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Lets hope that CCP sticks to its guns and doesnt give in to the whine. This thread is just full of the stupid crap that the forum warriors used to take the **** out of mercilessly, except now the forum warriors are the ones getting their ships nerfed and are spouting the "EVE will be dead if you do this" crap and similar. Just unsubscribe already you numptys.
We all know that nanoing up a ship is (soon to be 'was') more effective than WCS ever were, its going to be fun seeing killboards full of dead "used-to-be-nano-fitting HAC's.
Nerf them nanos CCP, nerf them gooood
0 losses 0 kill ever why do you even care?.
Oh look another non pvper with a bit of venom to spit out.
hahahaha ... I laugh in your general direction epeen measurer
What a surprise.
But honestly why do you care as this only effects pvpers but i see a lot of pronerf angry posting and "we enjoy your pain" comments from ppl who are in no way effected by this nerf, are you such bitter and angry ppl that your only pleasure is others discomfort and annoyance cos thats kinda sad and pathetic bud?.
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BlondieBC
Minmatar 7th Tribal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:46:00 -
[2565]
Originally by: Marsaac Atlast a working nanonerf. My only concerns is about the Minmatar recon ships. Removing the target painter bonus and replacing it with a bonus for web velocity affection would make them worth flying after the patch. Same with the Hyena.
To keep minmatars recons viable, they need a role bonus boosting the effectiveness of webs. Assuming 50% base on new webs, give them a 5% additive bonus per lvl (for a total of 75%). This makes them useful, while still eliminatiing 90% webs.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:47:00 -
[2566]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:48:03
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Arctur Ceti Pardon my silly question, but I specialize in Gallente ships. Is there any agile Gallente ship I could use to kill a nano and not just have it warp away?
It's a little tricky using only Gallente. Best bet is probably a BS, fit a couple of Large Neuts. Let him get in his comfort zone, start doing some damage to you. Then make sure you are moving in a direction at max speed with mwd on. Hit the Neuts, overload MWD and Web at 13km and you should be able to grab him.
This has all been tested and works fine in la-la land. Unfortunately in tranquility you are stuffed.
Didn't say it was a sure thing, but it's doable. If he's at 15km, the overloaded mwd then web can grab them, and the neuts means he can't do shit after his current mwd cycle has ended. At the least you will scare him off.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:48:00 -
[2567]
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Hello Ithrinim, unknown member of probably an NPC corp with zero killboard exposure. Thank you for telling people with years of experience what roaming gangs are supposed to be. Your insight is deep and broad and certainly worth listening to.
Do your research - ie click Ithrinim - He's in a corp, matey. Here's my Main. Very successful pirate, billions in the Bank. Been playing since the start, done 0.0 and hated it, now pirating whenever I'm logged on.
Without Nano ships.
Who's the ****** now?
Oh and I'm sure you can find our killboard if you look hard enough.
So in other words by your own admission this nerf does not effect you as nano gangs hardly prey on ships in low sec?.
Sad pathetic angry little man venting his spleen much?.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:49:00 -
[2568]
Originally by: Andnowthenews What a surprise.
But honestly why do you care as this only effects pvpers but i see a lot of pronerf angry posting and "we enjoy your pain" comments from ppl who are in no way effected by this nerf, are you such bitter and angry ppl that your only pleasure is others discomfort and annoyance cos thats kinda sad and pathetic bud?.
LOL ... so someone needs to be killed by nanos to know if they are stupidly unbalanced now?. Also your tears are AWFUL, I might use them to clean that nasty mess in the bottom of the bin. |
Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:49:00 -
[2569]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 28/07/2008 11:49:30 wow! I have been waiting this for over 2 years!!
Yes scram should affect MWD, this makes sence and I was talking about this years ago!
Nano ships are WAY WAY over used because there over powered.
I will come back to the game when this is implimented correctly.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:49:00 -
[2570]
Originally by: BlondieBC
Originally by: Marsaac Atlast a working nanonerf. My only concerns is about the Minmatar recon ships. Removing the target painter bonus and replacing it with a bonus for web velocity affection would make them worth flying after the patch. Same with the Hyena.
To keep minmatars recons viable, they need a role bonus boosting the effectiveness of webs. Assuming 50% base on new webs, give them a 5% additive bonus per lvl (for a total of 75%). This makes them useful, while still eliminatiing 90% webs.
swaping 7,5% painter to 7,5% web strenght would be much welcome.(who uses target painters on rapier anyway)
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:50:00 -
[2571]
Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 11:50:46
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:14:24
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 07:50:09 The problem with speed right now is the average fit can easily get speeds and passive tanks high enough to combat too many obstacles w/o fear of heavy loss.
I do not mind watching an alliance get camped into their home system by 20 people. I do mind that there is very little they can do about removing those people from local beyond besting their speed setup to even have a chance at catching them.
Speed goes in the same category as what cloaks should be, they should be good short term tools, ie 15-20 min.
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
I do think that to counter this speed nerf, CCP needs to Implement removal of the ability to both cyno jam a system while still allowing jump bridges. Alliances should have to choose one or the other.
How to kill a nanogang in your home system.
1: Interdictors/Heavy Interdictors 2: Rapiers/Huginns 3: A little DPS. 4: Engage enemy 5: Profit
Kindly shut the **** up.
That's not how you kill them, that's how you discourage them to fight... that does not discourage them to sit 200 off of you and wait patiently for a mistake... I know, I've run both sides of it.
nor does it discourage them to leave your territory.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:51:00 -
[2572]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews What a surprise.
But honestly why do you care as this only effects pvpers but i see a lot of pronerf angry posting and "we enjoy your pain" comments from ppl who are in no way effected by this nerf, are you such bitter and angry ppl that your only pleasure is others discomfort and annoyance cos thats kinda sad and pathetic bud?.
LOL ... so someone needs to be killed by nanos to know if they are stupidly unbalanced now?. Also your tears are AWFUL, I might use them to clean that nasty mess in the bottom of the bin.
Considering that most of the nerfits are not really experienced 0.0 pvpers or even pvpers at all then yes you need experience to know wtf you are talking about id not strt lecturing ppl on mission running or mining as i have never done it and have no clue about it tbh.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:51:00 -
[2573]
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Hello Ithrinim, unknown member of probably an NPC corp with zero killboard exposure. Thank you for telling people with years of experience what roaming gangs are supposed to be. Your insight is deep and broad and certainly worth listening to.
Do your research - ie click Ithrinim - He's in a corp, matey. Here's my Main. Very successful pirate, billions in the Bank. Been playing since the start, done 0.0 and hated it, now pirating whenever I'm logged on.
Without Nano ships.
Who's the ****** now?
Oh and I'm sure you can find our killboard if you look hard enough.
Congratulations. This is my main. I don't claim to be particularly successful in anything, or an amazing oracle of any field. I'm a late 2006 player. Been in 0.0 on and off since 2007, including as late as a few weeks ago. The only thing I do claim to be is up to date on the 0.0 game mechanics.
Check battleclinic, and you'll find the only ships I've used in 0.0 in the past year have been Megathrons (Usually with rails), Thoraxes, and Ares. Because I've been in the role of a defender or didn't have the skills to do much else.
(serious) Have you tried to do asymmetric warfare in 0.0 since the introduction of cyno jammers and jump bridges?
Every form of combat in Eve (maybe not Titans) is perfectly reasonable, and there are no 'dirty tricks' or 'lesser' tactics. With that in mind,
It looks like you like using Abaddons a lot. Lowsec gatecamping?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:52:00 -
[2574]
Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 11:56:00 Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 11:53:28 quote=Andnowthenews] Originally by: Yaay
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
Maybe somebody who thinks of himself as such a great FC could enlighten us on how to counter a hostile blob jumping over a roaming gang in their systems to the constellation choke point with caps and other ships (maybe even a titan or 4), then putting a shed load of bubbles all over the gate?.
good job, you quoted the first half, wanna give the 2nd half a try?
Or one of my other post in the thread?
Maybe you see I'm arguing more for speed, and for counters and reasons not to use it.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:53:00 -
[2575]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Ithrinim The main issue here is nano-***s don't seem to understand the definition of raiding/roaming.
It isn't flying in and out of the Enemy's capital system without rebuke. It's harassing their borders and supply routes.
You want your cake and eat it, that's your problem.
Hello Ithrinim, unknown member of probably an NPC corp with zero killboard exposure. Thank you for telling people with years of experience what roaming gangs are supposed to be. Your insight is deep and broad and certainly worth listening to.
Do your research - ie click Ithrinim - He's in a corp, matey. Here's my Main. Very successful pirate, billions in the Bank. Been playing since the start, done 0.0 and hated it, now pirating whenever I'm logged on.
Without Nano ships.
Who's the ****** now?
Oh and I'm sure you can find our killboard if you look hard enough.
So in other words by your own admission this nerf does not effect you as nano gangs hardly prey on ships in low sec?.
Sad pathetic angry little man venting his spleen much?.
Affects us all the time. Despite having ALL the required counters in our gang, Nano's still escape 9/10 times. And most in lowsec now fly force recons or hacs with nano fits.
The main issue is acceleration. The ships achieve the majority of their velocity waaaaay too fast, and the drift factor is obscene when webbed. If these two issues were fixed, along with a 25% across the board speed reduction, the problem would be a long way to sorted.
I am not angry about the situation. You clearly are. I stated my opinion and got personally flamed about it, but heh who cares :-)
Posting on my main....
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pippan
Gallente The Wild Hunt Pure.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:55:00 -
[2576]
Page 100 \o/
plz make a mirror on the test server when we are to try the new stuff!! ---- - pippan
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:56:00 -
[2577]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:56:01
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 11:50:46
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 11:14:24
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 28/07/2008 07:50:09 The problem with speed right now is the average fit can easily get speeds and passive tanks high enough to combat too many obstacles w/o fear of heavy loss.
I do not mind watching an alliance get camped into their home system by 20 people. I do mind that there is very little they can do about removing those people from local beyond besting their speed setup to even have a chance at catching them.
Speed goes in the same category as what cloaks should be, they should be good short term tools, ie 15-20 min.
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
I do think that to counter this speed nerf, CCP needs to Implement removal of the ability to both cyno jam a system while still allowing jump bridges. Alliances should have to choose one or the other.
How to kill a nanogang in your home system.
1: Interdictors/Heavy Interdictors 2: Rapiers/Huginns 3: A little DPS. 4: Engage enemy 5: Profit
Kindly shut the **** up.
That's not how you kill them, that's how you discourage them to fight... that does not discourage them to sit 200 off of you and wait patiently for a mistake... I know, I've run both sides of it.
nor does it discourage them to leave your territory.
*shrugs*. Failing that get a carrier and assign as many fighters as you can to the fastest ship you can get.
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Yaay
Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:57:00 -
[2578]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
*shrugs*. Failing that get a carrier and assign as many fighters as you can to the fastest ship you can get.
good way to lose fighters
It's the Economy Stupid |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:58:00 -
[2579]
I reject the idea that every race has to have a <shiptype> that does everything the same as or similar to another race's <shiptype>. If everything is going to be the same, just looking different with different names, what's the point? Why allow training non-racial skills, then?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 11:58:00 -
[2580]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 12:03:18
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Zikka
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Yaay
People say speed is the only way to counter jump bridges and jammed systems and drake gangs, Yet they don't even try to come up with better solutions for those problems, instead, it's just let me keep my speed. That's such a ******ed arguement.
Maybe somebody who thinks of himself as such a great FC could enlighten us on how to counter a hostile blob jumping over a roaming gang in their systems to the constellation choke point with caps and other ships (maybe even a titan or 4), then putting a shed load of bubbles all over the gate?.
good job, you quoted the first half, wanna give the 2nd half a try?
Did you cut out the fools comments cos you realised how limiting and stupid they were?.
Sniper gangs jumping into a bubbled camp?. LOL
Black ops and recon only gangs in cyno jammed systems?. LOL
Seems to me the nano nerf is here to keep ppl who have no clue or are unwilling or unable to improve there pvp skill happy.
And reducing the skill needed to play a game just cos of a few whiney r*tards is a bad idea.
|
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:01:00 -
[2581]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
*shrugs*. Failing that get a carrier and assign as many fighters as you can to the fastest ship you can get.
good way to lose fighters
Oh wait I thought of another one. Dock/cloak/POS hug until they get bored and look for some other targets. I don't know wtf kind of nano-gang you run into, but the one's i've seen... If they can't kill anything within ten minutes, they will usually go off and try and find a ratting Raven or something.
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Ivena Amethyst
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:02:00 -
[2582]
so.... where is this patch that was gonna come out today on sisi but clearly hasn't???
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:02:00 -
[2583]
Originally by: Haakelen Congratulations. This is my main. I don't claim to be particularly successful in anything, or an amazing oracle of any field. I'm a late 2006 player. Been in 0.0 on and off since 2007, including as late as a few weeks ago. The only thing I do claim to be is up to date on the 0.0 game mechanics.
Check battleclinic, and you'll find the only ships I've used in 0.0 in the past year have been Megathrons (Usually with rails), Thoraxes, and Ares. Because I've been in the role of a defender or didn't have the skills to do much else.
(serious) Have you tried to do asymmetric warfare in 0.0 since the introduction of cyno jammers and jump bridges?
Every form of combat in Eve (maybe not Titans) is perfectly reasonable, and there are no 'dirty tricks' or 'lesser' tactics. With that in mind,
It looks like you like using Abaddons a lot. Lowsec gatecamping?
OK, that's much better :-)
Abaddon is our ship-of-the-line for almost all engagements. Yes, we camp, but we also scan mission runners, hit belt ratters etc - anything to get the kill and the isk/loot. We've also taken to killing an awful lot of FWers lately too.
I left 0.0 not long after Cyno Jammers and Jumpgates came in - and I do appreciate the issue of logistics being far too easy now. However, I also don't agree with being able to go into a core alliance system, kill people and then leave with impunity even if the defences are suitable.
My opinion - and it is just that - is that Black Ops were brought in to give a high risk (iskwise) but alternate way to orchestrate these types of attack. The fact that they are horribly prenerfed doesn't help tho.
Grats on the ship usage tho - you didn't climb on the Nano-wagon :-)
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:03:00 -
[2584]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Considering that most of the nerfits are not really experienced 0.0 pvpers or even pvpers at all then yes you need experience to know wtf you are talking about id not strt lecturing ppl on mission running or mining as i have never done it and have no clue about it tbh.
And you know who my main is how? I dont owe you that information, I dont give a damn if you think that that information is needed to prove my ability to post on this subject. In other words you can get knotted.
I very very rarely purposefully post with my main because I enjoy winding up muppets who measure everything by kills/losses and to a lesser extent 0.0 experience, which by the way I have two accounts in large 0.0 alliances.
I'll say it again, you dont need to have killed loads of people or lost loads of ships to know that excessive speed is imbalanced. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:03:00 -
[2585]
Regarding Recon effectiveness:
MWD gives 500% speed bonus, or 625% bonus at max skills. Meaning 7.25 speed multiplier. Removing that speed multiplier is equivalent to a 86% web.
So, Lachesis/Arazu can fit an 18km 86% web that does not stack, i.e. the second "web" will not do anything. It also will do 0% webbing on a ship with AB or no MWD. But they can fit multiple ones.
Two 60% webs can be put on a single target and are equivalent to an 80% web with stacking, or 85% web without stacking.
So, Rapier/Huginn can fit a 30km 80% web that stacks with other webs, and affects ABing ships just as well.
Different ships, with Rapier/Huginn in general more effective for tackling, but Lachesis/Arazu have their advantages. Rapier/Huginn will not be obsolete, but will also not be the "one ship to stop them all." Not too great, but also not the end of the world. The only thing I'd like to happen would be web stacking to be removed. That would turn the the dual web into a 85% web, making the Rapier/Huginn basically equivalent to an Arazu/Lachesis on an MWDing ship, leaving the tradeoff between more range and more effectiveness on ABing ships on the one hand, and having a damp ship with 40km scram range on the other.
(This was announced when I was 1/3rd into minnie cruiser 5 :-))
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 12:06:00 -
[2586]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
I'll say it again, you dont need to have killed loads of people or lost loads of ships to know that excessive speed is imbalanced.
So your saying thast you do not need to know what your talking about to know what your talking about???.
ok bud
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:13:00 -
[2587]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 12:05:57
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
I'll say it again, you dont need to have killed loads of people or lost loads of ships to know that excessive speed is imbalanced.
So your saying that you do not need to know what your talking about to know what your talking about???.
ok bud
ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
Read my post again, two mains in 0.0 alliances. Do you think I have never been attacked by a nano, or indeed that my huginn with a arazu mate hasnt made life miserable for a nano***?
The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang. |
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:17:00 -
[2588]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 12:10:24
Originally by: Redback911
Abaddon is our ship-of-the-line for almost all engagements. Yes, we camp, but we also scan mission runners, hit belt ratters etc - anything to get the kill and the isk/loot.
They're quite fun to move around in when trimarked eh? . This whole nerf business wouldn't be quite as bad if they were going to increase the agility of battleships a bit. Don't forget the whole, gimping Blasters part. **** polycarbons, ganglinks, and snakes. Don't do a 180 on game mechanics.
Allows us to fight the blobs.
Originally by: Redback911
However, I also don't agree with being able to go into a core alliance system, kill people and then leave with impunity even if the defences are suitable.
The problem is, that alliances nowadays are dropping outposts in any half-decent ratting system and trying to spam out Sov 4. Ratters in 0.0 cannot be allowed to gather resources with impunity. It's bad enough there's the legion of cloaking farmers.
So the fix is to make Outposts destructible (as CCP said they would evaluate in time when they first introduced them). Removal or severe nerfing of cloaks from anything but the specialist ships isn't a bad idea. Almost every FWer we kill has a protocloak fitted :-) There are now more than enough special cloak ships in game to make this change possible.
Originally by: Redback911
My opinion - and it is just that - is that Black Ops were brought in to give a high risk (iskwise) but alternate way to orchestrate these types of attack. The fact that they are horribly prenerfed doesn't help tho.
Assuming CCP doesn't nerf cloaks next, that's reasonable. I just think that it's getting far too easy to operate in Alliance 0.0 space nowadays, what with NAP lists 30 pages long and everything else that's happened.
So what you are saying is that 0.0 is getting civilised? :-) An alliance should be able to protect it's space from roamers. It's the POS / Sov system that is utterly broken.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:19:00 -
[2589]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 12:20:14
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 12:05:57
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
I'll say it again, you dont need to have killed loads of people or lost loads of ships to know that excessive speed is imbalanced.
So your saying that you do not need to know what your talking about to know what your talking about???.
ok bud
ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
Read my post again, two mains in 0.0 alliances. Do you think I have never been attacked by a nano, or indeed that my huginn with a arazu mate hasnt made life miserable for a nano***?
The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
So you want gang fights to consist of 2 non moving dictor bubbled blobs sitting opposite each other plugging away until the gang with any ships left is considered the winner?.
Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?.
WOW your idea of eve pvp sounds like so much fun....NOT.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:22:00 -
[2590]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 12:25:55
Originally by: Redback911
Allows us to fight the blobs.
My corporation uses RR Battleship gangs a lot. I am not disputing that it works in similar ways to Nanos, allowing a numerically inferior force to challenge a larger one. It works just fine, and will continue to work. It is fine. CCP is removing an alternative, however.
Originally by: Redback911
So the fix is to make Outposts destructible (as CCP said they would evaluate in time when they first introduced them). Removal or severe nerfing of cloaks from anything but the specialist ships isn't a bad idea. Almost every FWer we kill has a protocloak fitted :-) There are now more than enough special cloak ships in game to make this change possible.
Either I'm misreading you, or you're misreading me. I'll put the blame on myself first: I read what you're saying, and take it as 'Recon gangs should replace the nano gangs to gank ratters'?
Originally by: Redback911
So what you are saying is that 0.0 is getting civilised? :-) An alliance should be able to protect it's space from roamers. It's the POS / Sov system that is utterly broken.
The problem is not that competent 0.0 Alliances are able to secure their space. The problem is that incompetent entities are whining that they should be able to have a 0.0 system 100% safe from anything except a capital onslaught because they have 15 ratters in it.
No argument that POS/Sov isn't utter shit. It isn't fun. 200v200, 75 BS vs 75 BS, isn't fun. It might be if it wasn't laggy, but still even then.
Originally by: Redback911
Why should you escape THEIR space, that YOU just raided, without loss?
So, Player Sov 0.0 should be safer for the defenders than Empire space?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:25:00 -
[2591]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?. Quote:
Why should you escape THEIR space, that YOU just raided, without loss?
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:27:00 -
[2592]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 12:29:03
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Andnowthenews Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?. Quote:
Why should you escape THEIR space, that YOU just raided, without loss?
It would only be without loss if they sucked at actually pvping or hid and jump bridged over us to camp the choke point. If they had any real skill in individual and gang pvp they should get plenty of kills (and so should we) and have great fun along the way.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:31:00 -
[2593]
Originally by: Andnowthenews So you want gang fights to consist of 2 non moving dictor bubbled blobs sitting opposite each other plugging away until the gang with any ships left is considered the winner?.
Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?.
WOW your idea of eve pvp sounds like so much fun....NOT.
Sigh, quoting some smart dude :)
Quote: ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
If your PVP consists of always being in a bubbled fleet shooting at another bubbled fleet then your FC's are muppets. With the correct tactics a smaller BS gang will easily deal with a larger gang, not in all situations of course, but using your head > blobbing up 90% of the time. Remember, this is a PVP game, you dont walways win .... nano***s frequently forget that fact because of their low risk gameplay. |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:33:00 -
[2594]
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Andnowthenews Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?. Quote:
Why should you escape THEIR space, that YOU just raided, without loss?
Oh man i know you. You are never flew in space, just always did docking fought in low sec with your friend aka. Oberon Wolf. U talk about nano nerf ? LOL
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:39:00 -
[2595]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews So you want gang fights to consist of 2 non moving dictor bubbled blobs sitting opposite each other plugging away until the gang with any ships left is considered the winner?.
Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?.
WOW your idea of eve pvp sounds like so much fun....NOT.
Sigh, quoting some smart dude :)
Quote: ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
If your PVP consists of always being in a bubbled fleet shooting at another bubbled fleet then your FC's are muppets. With the correct tactics a smaller BS gang will easily deal with a larger gang, not in all situations of course, but using your head > blobbing up 90% of the time. Remember, this is a PVP game, you dont walways win .... nano***s frequently forget that fact because of their low risk gameplay.
Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:47:00 -
[2596]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Read my post again, two mains in 0.0 alliances. Do you think I have never been attacked by a nano, or indeed that my huginn with a arazu mate hasnt made life miserable for a nano***?
The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
Hi whiney obviously ex Bruce alt. BTW I can almost guarantee that we have never had a 60+ man nano gang as in what you guys interperit a nano ship to be. Yes I've seen a few random 20 man vaga/nano gangs go out but we usually change fits to something that will annoy you more when we hit 20 guys in a gang.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:48:00 -
[2597]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 12:48:57 The entire point of the 'Sandbox' aspect of 0.0 player sov is that you're able to make it very secure, with proper preparations, individual pilot skill, and organizational strategic knowledge (ie: on a higher level than 'put bullets and missiles into the enemy). Cynojammers and jump bridges, among other things, are vital to this discussion.
Player sov 0.0 should not be about 'rat in complete safety for a few hours. Buy a Sniper battleship. Wait 7 hours to never load grid and wake up in a faraway outpost, without seeing another ship.'
Fight in Highsec, Lowsec, NPC 0.0, Player 0.0 as a defender and attacker (in both non-sovereignty and sovereignty operations). At a certain point, when they engage, it becomes all about docking games (bumping them off) or blobbing. This is why Nanos exist as a fitting strategy.
A 20-25 player gang with 10 or so shortrange locally tanked battleships will, in this day and age more often then not get barbecued by a hot drop and motherships. People fly Nanos because it isn't fun to fit up a 250M ISK ship that can only be used suicidally if the enemy ever engages, and because their idea of fun is not getting in the cheapest piece of shit they can scrap together from their hangar for the least amount of money (Ie, FW).
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Space Explorer
Minmatar Evil Fluffy Bunnies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:54:00 -
[2598]
Great now we need to fit 4 webbers to get the same effect as one webber previously.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:59:00 -
[2599]
Originally by: Space Explorer Great now we need to fit 4 webbers to get the same effect as one webber previously.
Yea but a scram is now a 500% web to any ship that is using a mwd lol.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:02:00 -
[2600]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews So you want gang fights to consist of 2 non moving dictor bubbled blobs sitting opposite each other plugging away until the gang with any ships left is considered the winner?.
Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?.
WOW your idea of eve pvp sounds like so much fun....NOT.
Sigh, quoting some smart dude :)
Quote: ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
If your PVP consists of always being in a bubbled fleet shooting at another bubbled fleet then your FC's are muppets. With the correct tactics a smaller BS gang will easily deal with a larger gang, not in all situations of course, but using your head > blobbing up 90% of the time. Remember, this is a PVP game, you dont walways win .... nano***s frequently forget that fact because of their low risk gameplay.
Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
If the "small BS gang" choose one of the few dead end constellations in this game to invade, went most of the way through it before discovering this, and decide to back track out of it... well, they have more to worry about than their limited tactical options at that point.
People speak as though after these changes, even if they go through unaltered, that fast moving HAC and RECON gangs will no longer be possible. I suppose that makes it sound better when opposing the balancing effort... to make it sound like the end of a playstyle but seriously, come on. Just who, exactly, are you trying to kid.
Some of the more extreme abuses of the system will be curbed, average speed of a nano gang may drop slightly but hardly enough to invalidate the numerous advantages of speed tanking and being in a swift moving raiding group.
Less "OMG nano will die and the game will be ruined" posts please... we all know that isn't even close to the truth.
More suggestions on how things can be tweaked to make things more interesting for ALL players (both nano and non-nano).
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:05:00 -
[2601]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews So you want gang fights to consist of 2 non moving dictor bubbled blobs sitting opposite each other plugging away until the gang with any ships left is considered the winner?.
Or the hostile gang being ignored in the system while you jump bridge your blob over them to the constellation choke poin,t bubble the crap out of the gate so they have to jump through into YOUR capital/conventional blob or even a few titans?.
WOW your idea of eve pvp sounds like so much fun....NOT.
Sigh, quoting some smart dude :)
Quote: ah, the "putting words in their mouth" verbal shenanigans ...
If your PVP consists of always being in a bubbled fleet shooting at another bubbled fleet then your FC's are muppets. With the correct tactics a smaller BS gang will easily deal with a larger gang, not in all situations of course, but using your head > blobbing up 90% of the time. Remember, this is a PVP game, you dont walways win .... nano***s frequently forget that fact because of their low risk gameplay.
Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
If the "small BS gang" choose one of the few dead end constellations in this game to invade, went most of the way through it before discovering this, and decide to back track out of it... well, they have more to worry about than their limited tactical options at that point.
With a few well placed jump bridges who needs a dead end constellation, any choke point system will do as they can always jump ahead of any gang small BS or other.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:05:00 -
[2602]
Edited by: The Mach on 28/07/2008 13:06:13 Choice one: 10km Web Choice two: 7.5km Scram
When have you ever seen a nano ship inside 10km let alone 7.5km??
No change here, just another way to ineffectivly catch nothing.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:07:00 -
[2603]
This patch is like writing a letter to the government tbh.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:07:00 -
[2604]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
PANSPLOITER LEGION MUTHA****AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:24:00 -
[2605]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
PANSPLOITER LEGION MUTHA****AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
i know you are being sarcastic but these are the only types of ships you guys field.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:28:00 -
[2606]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 13:28:32 god this forum is great
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=alliance&name=Brutally+Clever+Empire&id=3471651&page=54&filter=losses#mail
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:30:00 -
[2607]
I'll quote my own post on the Assembly Hall vote threads:
I like a lot of the individual changes being proposed. The redistribution of ship speeds by class, the polycarbon nerf, and the elimination of mass reduction are all likely to be good things, and I can see the web nerf and the meta>0 MWD nerf being good things as well, though I'm less sure of those.
But so many more of the individual changes are utterly wrong. People spend billions on Snakes, and destroying their value this thoroughly seems a mistake. Boosters aren't as expensive, but them having utility seems a good thing, and sig radius just isn't as important as speed. If they're underused, you don't nerf them. Similarly, if you're willing to give up 300+ DPS of heavy drones, an 83% web is not unreasonable, and so nerfing the virtually unusable web drones is a mistake. And the scram change, while interesting on paper, just seems foolish - MWDs aren't a problem inside 9 km(because of webs), they're a problem at 15-20.
Furthermore, their whole approach seems flawed. Speaking for myself, I don't want a speed nerf. Nerfbats are unsubtle, uninteresting, and just serve to **** off people who have invested a lot of time and money into doing things in a way that is no longer possible. What I want is a countermeasure worth a damn. Right now, I can think of exactly one module a generic non-nano ship can fit to counter a nano ship, and that's a heavy neut, not counting funky faction webs and stuff. There's no T2 ammo that provides a tracking bonus(an ideal role for Tremor/Gleam/Javelin, IMO), there's no web with enough extra range for less than 200 million, there's really nothing. That's the problem - the only decent counter that lets you actually kill a nano HAC is an interceptor. Add an anti-nano T2 ammo, and maybe change webs such that a higher meta adds range instead of speed reduction - T2 webs doing -50% at 20 km would be almost enough by itself(and change the Paladin and Kronos to 10% web effect, to keep the 2-in-1 effect). But don't just say "Everything speed-based has got to go" and assume that's a fix, let alone the right fix. Cutting all speeds in half doesn't nerf nanos worth a damn, it just buffs bubbles.
And to stave off whining, the only ship I've ever speed-fit is an Ares. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:31:00 -
[2608]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Some of the more extreme abuses of the system will be curbed, average speed of a nano gang may drop slightly
You know the 4km vaga fit with 2x Aux thruster II, 2x OD and HG snakes? You know how fast this goes on TQ atm?
7,3km/s. It goes 4km/s after the patch. This is not a slight drop, this is a MASSIVE drop that will eliminate speedtanking.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:32:00 -
[2609]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
PANSPLOITER LEGION MUTHA****AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
i know you are being sarcastic but these are the only types of ships you guys field.
Yep, that's some nano dreads and nano carriers right there: https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2008-07-27 20:53:00&end_time=2008-07-27 22:44:00&system=7BX-6F
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:32:00 -
[2610]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:06:29
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
If the "small BS gang" choose one of the few dead end constellations in this game to invade, went most of the way through it before discovering this, and decide to back track out of it... well, they have more to worry about than their limited tactical options at that point.
With a few well placed jump bridges who needs a dead end constellation, any choke point system will do as they can always jump ahead of any type of gang, small BS or other.
Ahh, if it were only that easy. Fortunately, for everyone, it is not. Most constellations have multiple entry points (yes, even in 0.0), jumpbridges have limitations on number per system... range... and fuel use. If your assumption was accurate, even the nano gangs of today would be totally ineffective. And we all know that is not the case. No offense my friend, but your scenario only holds water if the defending territory is extremely well set up and the defenders have near perfect co-ordination. Yes, a defending 0.0 alliance has a "home court advantage" (as it should) but it is hardly insurmountable to a variety of types of "raiding groups". Personally, if I needed to rely on a small group of BS for such an incursion (and post changes there will still be no reason to have that as your only... or most viable... option) I would not look to push deeply into a heavily defended area. Instead a short, strong push to do as much damage as possible to any unprepared ships within a jump or two of the entry point. Pick off any early, disorganized response that may appear, and withdraw when resistance to heavy to effectively deal with arrives. These types of attacks happen multiple times every day in EVE now, and will continue to occur regardless of what happens. Classic hit and fade tactics. Perhaps we should try to stick to the reality of the proposed changes and see if we can give some construtive, realistic feedback.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:36:00 -
[2611]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I would not look to push deeply into a heavily defended area. Instead a short, strong push to do as much damage as possible to any unprepared ships within a jump or two of the entry point.
So, chokepoint camping/breaking up of camps and not too much further, with everyone in deeper constellations being mostly safe except for anti-sovereignty operations and capital stuff. That's awesome.
How about alliances that live 30 jumps in, behind a nap blanket?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:36:00 -
[2612]
MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit you blob style of defence down to the grounds.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for roaming gangs ffs.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:40:00 -
[2613]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ranger 1
Some of the more extreme abuses of the system will be curbed, average speed of a nano gang may drop slightly
You know the 4km vaga fit with 2x Aux thruster II, 2x OD and HG snakes? You know how fast this goes on TQ atm?
7,3km/s. It goes 4km/s after the patch. This is not a slight drop, this is a MASSIVE drop that will eliminate speedtanking.
That would be one of the more extreme cases I mentioned now wouldn't it? As I said, the average speed of your typical nano gang won't be impacted nearly that much.
And no, the only people that will stop speed tanking are the people that never really knew how to do it well... but had enough isk to invest in equipment that they were able to get great results regardless. Those folks will simply turn to whatever the new flavor of the month is.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:40:00 -
[2614]
Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 28/07/2008 13:40:36
Originally by: Andnowthenews Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
Quoting some smart dude:
Quote: Remember, this is a PVP game, you dont always win .... nano***s frequently forget that fact because of their low risk gameplay.
And tbh, if you have scouts out you will know that wtfbbq gang is there, so you stay in their constellation and pick off the dudes that arent watching alliance chat... worst comes to worst, you sit in a system without jumpbridges and wait for them to jump into you and kill as many as you can before you pop yourself... I know what you're thinking ...... "whats this? getting popped yourself? you got to be kidding right? this isnt some sort of pvp game where you can get killed is it?"
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:42:00 -
[2615]
Originally by: Ranger 1
And no, the only people that will stop speed tanking are the people that never really knew how to do it well... but had enough isk to invest in equipment that they were able to get great results regardless. Those folks will simply turn to whatever the new flavor of the month is.
You seem to be going on the assumption that anything that reduces the defender advantage is 'FOTM'/an 'exploit'/etc.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:45:00 -
[2616]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:37:51 MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit your blob style of defense down to the ground.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for dealing with roaming gangs ffs.
Actually, the largest part of our defenses come in the form of Hacs and Recons tricked out for long range and fast tracking. Please feel free to check our KBs if you have any doubt (or interest in reality). For offense you will find a very, very large number of our kills come from fast moving Hac and Recon gangs.
I will freely admit, we do occasionally drop a DD on a raiding group for grins, as its a bit of a challenge to time it correctly and puts a bit more excitement back into the game for everyone concerned. I can think of, hmmmm, twice, in the last few months that that has occured.
Nice attempt to avoid the point however.
|
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:47:00 -
[2617]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Ranger 1
And no, the only people that will stop speed tanking are the people that never really knew how to do it well... but had enough isk to invest in equipment that they were able to get great results regardless. Those folks will simply turn to whatever the new flavor of the month is.
You seem to be going on the assumption that anything that reduces the defender advantage is 'FOTM'/an 'exploit'/etc.
Actually no. But feel free to express your opinion of me rather than the facts at hand.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:49:00 -
[2618]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
And tbh, if you have scouts out you will know that wtfbbq gang is there, so you stay in their constellation and pick off the dudes that arent watching alliance chat...
Reducing roaming gangs to ganking solo idiots who do not watch intel channels?. Yea nice attitude pal your not screwing with gang pvp fights with this stupid nerf are ya.....
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
worst comes to worst, you sit in a system without jumpbridges and wait for them to jump into you and kill as many as you can before you pop yourself...
Or get camped in those systems as well until you need to log out and hope when you login its still not perma camped and bubbled.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
I know what you're thinking ...... "whats this? getting popped yourself? you got to be kidding right? this isnt some sort of pvp game where you can get killed is it?"
All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
|
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:50:00 -
[2619]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
PANSPLOITER LEGION MUTHA****AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
i know you are being sarcastic but these are the only types of ships you guys field.
Man...I dented my nose headrolling F1 in a pokey Broadsword last night.
Ya'll must have waffle faces doing it via F1-F8 .
**"waffle-faces" in no way alludes to or remotely resembles Snigwaffe pilots**
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:51:00 -
[2620]
this discussion seems to have descended to COAD levels....how about brining it back on topic?
|
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:52:00 -
[2621]
Originally by: Pushtan this discussion seems to have descended to COAD levels....how about brining it back on topic?
/signed
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:53:00 -
[2622]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Counter this pls.
You come into my systems with a "small BS gang" i tell ppl not to engage you here and procced to get a blob together including capitals and jump over you to a cyno jammed choke point so you are now stuck in my constellation with no targets. So you decide to leave and as you are leaving your scout reports a huge blob of caps and other ships on the other side of the out gate with half a dozen bubbles all over it.
Please enlighten us to your uber tactical scenarios and "CORRECT TACTICS" to deal with that in any ship types apart from nano mr pvp pro.
1. You pick targets you can handle 2. You leave a scout so you can get out in time before you get camped in.
Yup I know this takes a bit more thought, but frankly that is the point of nano nerf. Nano fleets are easy mode. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:53:00 -
[2623]
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Read my post again, two mains in 0.0 alliances. Do you think I have never been attacked by a nano, or indeed that my huginn with a arazu mate hasnt made life miserable for a nano***?
The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
Hi whiney obviously ex Bruce alt. BTW I can almost guarantee that we have never had a 60+ man nano gang as in what you guys interperit a nano ship to be. Yes I've seen a few random 20 man vaga/nano gangs go out but we usually change fits to something that will annoy you more when we hit 20 guys in a gang.
And you guess I am an ex Bruce how?
Yes you guys have MS's and carriers and dreads, but they are not what everyone knows PL likes to fly. Anyone who has been in the south knows you people are the biggest nano***s going atm. For every killmail you find where you were in a battleship or capital there are likely to be 20 where you guys are doing your nano*** thing.
Dont hide from it, come out of the closet and say "I'm a nano*** and I love it"
|
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:54:00 -
[2624]
Originally by: Pushtan this discussion seems to have descended to COAD levels....how about brining it back on topic?
Tbh the OP has the intelligent reasoning of a COAD alt poster, so why should the rest of the thread be any different?
|
RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:56:00 -
[2625]
Sisi up and running so go and start testing ;-P -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:57:00 -
[2626]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:57:58
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit your blob style of defense down to the ground.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for dealing with roaming gangs ffs.
Nice attempt to avoid the point however.
Its you who is avoiding the point and the point is that 0.0 alliances will move into choke pointed areas or those covered by jump bridge networks and that will be the virtual end of roaming pvp as we know it cos a quick JB a few bubbles and a blob or titan and the roaming gang may as well log off or self destruct.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:58:00 -
[2627]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
1. You pick targets you can handle
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Reducing roaming gangs to ganking solo idiots who do not watch intel channels?.
So, the only point of roaming gangs is entry point gatecamps and 'ganking' people not paying attention? 'Real' PvP is relegated then to sniper fleets?
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Anyone who has been in the south knows you people are the biggest nano***s going atm. For every killmail you find where you were in a battleship or capital there are likely to be 20 where you guys are doing your nano*** thing.
I was in a BRUCE vassal alliance during the end of Fountain. Before the first sovereignty/comfort-challenging maneuvers (ie: when the defender has the highest game mechanic advantage), that might've been true. The second POSes started falling, it turned to mostly battleship gangs with support fleet. The reason there's more killmails with nanos is because they move faster, and were able to get people before the inevitable 'Get back to YZ-/WY-/a POS and don't engage' order came through.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:58:00 -
[2628]
Edited by: Redback911 on 28/07/2008 14:23:54
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 12:25:55
Originally by: Redback911
Allows us to fight the blobs.
My corporation uses RR Battleship gangs a lot. I am not disputing that it works in similar ways to Nanos, allowing a numerically inferior force to challenge a larger one. It works just fine, and will continue to work. It is fine. CCP is removing an alternative, however.
I don't look at it as an alternative, as there is so very little risk with Nano it's untrue.
Originally by: Redback911
So the fix is to make Outposts destructible (as CCP said they would evaluate in time when they first introduced them). Removal or severe nerfing of cloaks from anything but the specialist ships isn't a bad idea. Almost every FWer we kill has a protocloak fitted :-) There are now more than enough special cloak ships in game to make this change possible.
Either I'm misreading you, or you're misreading me. I'll put the blame on myself first: I read what you're saying, and take it as 'Recon gangs should replace the nano gangs to gank ratters'?
I think this is what CCP is inferring. Once they fix black ops.
Originally by: Redback911
So what you are saying is that 0.0 is getting civilised? :-) An alliance should be able to protect it's space from roamers. It's the POS / Sov system that is utterly broken.
The problem is not that competent 0.0 Alliances are able to secure their space. The problem is that incompetent entities are whining that they should be able to have a 0.0 system 100% safe from anything except a capital onslaught because they have 15 ratters in it.
Why shouldn't they camp you in? FC's strategic failings let them camp you in.
No argument that POS/Sov isn't utter shit. It isn't fun. 200v200, 75 BS vs 75 BS, isn't fun. It might be if it wasn't laggy, but still even then.
Agreed. Server fix and POS revamp pls.
Originally by: Redback911
Why should you escape THEIR space, that YOU just raided, without loss?
So, Player Sov 0.0 should be safer for the defenders than Empire space?
I see your point, but nanos remove too much risk from the attacker's end.
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:01:00 -
[2629]
Originally by: Andnowthenews All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
Bleh, learn to quote FFS ..
And as others have pointed out several times yet you ignore them every single time, going into an enemy dead end constellation in a small bs gang that has a nice range of enemy caps and supercaps sitting around waiting to jumpbridge behind it is as contrived as it is likely to only end in one way. In the real world, a quick scout would have spotted the trap FC would have taken gang elsewhere .... unless you are suggesting that the small gang was an invasion force and couldnt go elsewhere?
If all else fails a "burn eden" fit would be employed and harass the hell out of the enemy. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:03:00 -
[2630]
Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 14:03:57
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Pushtan this discussion seems to have descended to COAD levels....how about brining it back on topic?
Tbh the OP has the intelligent reasoning of a COAD alt poster, so why should the rest of the thread be any different?
thats as maybe, but how about coming up with other constructive comments, instead of another excuse to flame alliances/corps/players....(not you partic, everyone in the last...30 pages lol)
EDIT: And yes, the test server is apparantly up, so how about we all go test this 'crappy' nerf? I know i will be when im back from work
|
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:04:00 -
[2631]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Pushtan this discussion seems to have descended to COAD levels....how about brining it back on topic?
Tbh the OP has the intelligent reasoning of a COAD alt poster, so why should the rest of the thread be any different?
The OP in this thread being Wrangler. Way to get CCP on your side there Mr Nano***. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:05:00 -
[2632]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Read my post again, two mains in 0.0 alliances. Do you think I have never been attacked by a nano, or indeed that my huginn with a arazu mate hasnt made life miserable for a nano***?
The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.
Hi whiney obviously ex Bruce alt. BTW I can almost guarantee that we have never had a 60+ man nano gang as in what you guys interperit a nano ship to be. Yes I've seen a few random 20 man vaga/nano gangs go out but we usually change fits to something that will annoy you more when we hit 20 guys in a gang.
And you guess I am an ex Bruce how?
Yes you guys have MS's and carriers and dreads, but they are not what everyone knows PL likes to fly. Anyone who has been in the south knows you people are the biggest nano***s going atm. For every killmail you find where you were in a battleship or capital there are likely to be 20 where you guys are doing your nano*** thing.
Dont hide from it, come out of the closet and say "I'm a nano*** and I love it"
|
Drgnvale
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:05:00 -
[2633]
Edited by: Drgnvale on 28/07/2008 14:06:30 Edited by: Drgnvale on 28/07/2008 14:05:14 Anyone else having problems logging in on sisi? I'm perpetually loading one of the FD- stations, but other characters on this account who are in other systems load up fine. It makes it really hard to test anything when your useful character can't load the station.
Edit: Would it kill CCP to update the ****ing mirror for big changes like this?
|
Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:05:00 -
[2634]
Quote: Currently when youÆre webbed itÆs pretty much game over unless youÆre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied.
Warp Scrambles turning off MWD
Not such a good idea because it would basically make the above true for warp scrams. If Warp Scrables turning off MWD, a feature that was created against NANO ships, it will still hurt slower nano boats even more.
This would make Minmatar recons worthless, and buff Arazus and create imblanace.
However I do think it's a neat idea that can be limited to 1 ship type though. maybe it's something that can be given to AF ships as bonus, with double the warp scrabling range bonus and disabling mwd.
As for the webs, do not completly disable them to the point where they are useless. Webs still need to be able to stop smaller faster ships such as interceptors.
|
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:05:00 -
[2635]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:57:58
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit your blob style of defense down to the ground.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for dealing with roaming gangs ffs.
Nice attempt to avoid the point however.
Its you who is avoiding the point and the point is that 0.0 alliances will move into choke pointed areas or those covered by jump bridge networks and that will be the virtual end of roaming pvp as we know it cos a quick JB a few bubbles and a blob or titan and the roaming gang may as well log off or self destruct.
Yes because the roaming gang was impossible in 0.0 alliance space even before the prevelance of nano gangs after jump bridges and bubbles came into gangs.
Oh wait...
Well, anyway, fast moving, well scouted gangs will be impossible after these changes.
Oh wait....
But they will get caught in those bubbles so easily.
Of course the bubbles will be smaller post changes...
But being a bit slower, they will be webbed and helpless in those smaller bubbles.
Of course the webs will be far, far less effective post changes...
I'm having trouble remembering, did you have a point?
I am poking fun at you a bit, I truthfully do respect your opinion. I just don't think it reflects the state of things accurately.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:06:00 -
[2636]
Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 14:06:12 nm misread ftl
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:07:00 -
[2637]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
Bleh, learn to quote FFS ..
And as others have pointed out several times yet you ignore them every single time, going into an enemy dead end constellation in a small bs gang that has a nice range of enemy caps and supercaps sitting around waiting to jumpbridge behind it is as contrived as it is likely to only end in one way. In the real world, a quick scout would have spotted the trap FC would have taken gang elsewhere .... unless you are suggesting that the small gang was an invasion force and couldnt go elsewhere?
If all else fails a "burn eden" fit would be employed and harass the hell out of the enemy.
As you seem to be ignoring the fact is that jump bridges and jammers can be positioned at any and multiple choke points around a area making any incursion into somebody's space a trap.
And why should pvpers be limited to BE's style of play not everybody wants to sit on a gate for 16 hours a day popping the occasional idiot who did not read the intel channel. Just by making that comment it shows that at least your seeing how much removing nano will reduce the options for pvp with the currant game mechanics.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:09:00 -
[2638]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
And why should pvpers be limited to BE's style of play
seriously if i have to start using orange text i will kill myself.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:11:00 -
[2639]
These changes are effectively giving missile ships (other than the crow) a better chance at standing against nanos. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. I don't expect Caldari HAC's to be able to stand against other nano HAC's toe to toe yet. But it's a good start.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:18:00 -
[2640]
Originally by: Andnowthenews And why should pvpers be limited to BE's style of play not everybody wants to sit on a gate for 16 hours a day popping the occasional idiot who did not read the intel channel. Just by making that comment it shows that at least your seeing how much removing nano will reduce the options for pvp with the currant game mechanics.
This is where the pro and anti nerf people just cannot see eye to eye. Pro nerf people say that nano fits are mandatory and this is a problem, if the enemy is in nano fitted ships then the only real chance of killing a few of them is to nano up yourself. Anti nerf people say "noob", "ECM", "Neut", "Huginn" .. which all drives off the nano***s great, then the anti nerf gang says "OMG small gang warfare is DEAD OMG OMG" ..
And I have great respect for BE, they sit right in the middle of alliances little empires and drive them nuts... Do you have a K/D ratio similar to theirs? Are you saying that what they do is not PVP? |
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:18:00 -
[2641]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 14:19:15
Originally by: Ranger 1
Yes because the roaming gang was impossible in 0.0 alliance space even before the prevelance of nano gangs after jump bridges and bubbles came into gangs.
Oh wait...
Well, anyway, fast moving, well scouted gangs will be impossible after these changes.
Not imposable but much harder if you got camped even with nanos as they are. With the nerf it will be suicide.
Originally by: Ranger 1
But they will get caught in those bubbles so easily.
Of course the bubbles will be smaller post changes...
Is this the "whats heavier a pound of lead or a pound of feathers" argument?.
If they reduce the size of bubbles im sure ppl with Eisenstein's level of pvp intelligence will figure things out. HHMM let me think PUT MORE BUBBLES DOWN!!!!. WOW I MUST BE A GOD OF PVP KNOWLEDGE TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.
Originally by: Ranger 1
But being a bit slower, they will be webbed and helpless in those smaller bubbles.
Of course the webs will be far, far less effective post changes...
Who needs strong web effects (or if you do fit 2 its not like you need a scram with all those bubbles) when you have a multiple bubbled gate to burn away from that has a huge blob on it?.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:19:00 -
[2642]
Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:25:00 -
[2643]
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Tell him to try a ***abond tbh |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:25:00 -
[2644]
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
wasn't this the intention of the patch changes? Yay, devs have made it!!! --------- I want to phew phew
|
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:27:00 -
[2645]
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Oh god lol, i like my ishtar...looks like im gonna have to actually tank it or something now...you know...like the old days?
Remember guys? i miss decent slugging 1 on 1, or even a few on 1, just as long as its fighting...not dieing. And yes i have died to a few vagas, now all i can think of is how to combat the new problems that will arrive....ADAPT...ive said this before in here..
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:28:00 -
[2646]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
Bleh, learn to quote FFS ..
And as others have pointed out several times yet you ignore them every single time, going into an enemy dead end constellation in a small bs gang that has a nice range of enemy caps and supercaps sitting around waiting to jumpbridge behind it is as contrived as it is likely to only end in one way. In the real world, a quick scout would have spotted the trap FC would have taken gang elsewhere .... unless you are suggesting that the small gang was an invasion force and couldnt go elsewhere?
If all else fails a "burn eden" fit would be employed and harass the hell out of the enemy.
This. Strategy is more important than fit.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:30:00 -
[2647]
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
Bleh, learn to quote FFS ..
And as others have pointed out several times yet you ignore them every single time, going into an enemy dead end constellation in a small bs gang that has a nice range of enemy caps and supercaps sitting around waiting to jumpbridge behind it is as contrived as it is likely to only end in one way. In the real world, a quick scout would have spotted the trap FC would have taken gang elsewhere .... unless you are suggesting that the small gang was an invasion force and couldnt go elsewhere?
If all else fails a "burn eden" fit would be employed and harass the hell out of the enemy.
This. Strategy is more important than fit.
So your strategy is to NOT go into others systems looking for pvp?. WOW your like a veritable god of tactical knowledge.....
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:31:00 -
[2648]
Originally by: Redback911
I don't look at it as an alternative, as there is so very little risk with Nano it's untrue.
This is where we'll have to respectfully disagree. I've been on all sides of it, and I don't see it the way you do.
Originally by: Redback911
I think this is what CCP is inferring. Once they fix black ops.
Believe it when I see it, etc.
Originally by: Redback911
Why shouldn't they camp you in? FC's strategic failings let them camp you in.
I said nothing about being 'camped in'. I said about that the impression I get from listening to some of these muppets talk is that 15 ratting Battleships sitting in a system should be mostly immune from anything except a huge sniper fleet or capitals.
Originally by: Redback911
Agreed. Server fix and POS revamp pls.
I wish it was that easy
Originally by: Redback911
I see your point, but nanos remove too much risk from the attacker's end.
Perhaps. But the entire concept shouldn't be scrapped, and certainly not all at once, with collateral damage in the immense nature like it is here.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Archetype02
Gallente Comply Or Die
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:33:00 -
[2649]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Oh god lol, i like my ishtar...looks like im gonna have to actually tank it or something now...you know...like the old days?
Remember guys? i miss decent slugging 1 on 1, or even a few on 1, just as long as its fighting...not dieing. And yes i have died to a few vagas, now all i can think of is how to combat the new problems that will arrive....ADAPT...ive said this before in here..
sigh.. epic fail on the ishtar now.. what makes it better than a tanked dominix ?.... domi tanks better.. domi has more cap.. domi can run heavier highs.. "neuts.. etc.." wow gee thanks for making the ishtar worthless!
|
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:34:00 -
[2650]
Originally by: Haakelen Perhaps. But the entire concept shouldn't be scrapped, and certainly not all at once, with collateral damage in the immense nature like it is here.
We actually agree here. Some simple module changes on both the nano and counter front would have sufficed (and sort out the acceleration issue)
|
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:34:00 -
[2651]
Originally by: Archetype02
sigh.. epic fail on the ishtar now.. what makes it better than a tanked dominix ?.... domi tanks better.. domi has more cap.. domi can run heavier highs.. "neuts.. etc.." wow gee thanks for making the ishtar worthless!
The myrmidon and Dominix are superior to the Ishtar in every single respect after this. There is literally no reason to ever fly one again unless you're a ****ing inbred.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:35:00 -
[2652]
Originally by: Archetype02
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Oh god lol, i like my ishtar...looks like im gonna have to actually tank it or something now...you know...like the old days?
Remember guys? i miss decent slugging 1 on 1, or even a few on 1, just as long as its fighting...not dieing. And yes i have died to a few vagas, now all i can think of is how to combat the new problems that will arrive....ADAPT...ive said this before in here..
sigh.. epic fail on the ishtar now.. what makes it better than a tanked dominix ?.... domi tanks better.. domi has more cap.. domi can run heavier highs.. "neuts.. etc.." wow gee thanks for making the ishtar worthless!
You just cant see its uses, think about it...just TRY something new...like the first guy who tried a myrm with Arties or rather Auto's...people were like...WTF?! now its pretty much standard practice for anyone with half a brain.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:36:00 -
[2653]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:36:51
Originally by: Pushtan
You just cant see its uses, think about it...just TRY something new...like the first guy who tried a myrm with Arties or rather Auto's...people were like...WTF?! now its pretty much standard practice for anyone with half a brain.
Yes, you're right. The only way to effectively use an Ishtar or Myrmidon is to shield tank it and use non-racial weapons. This is good why?
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Haakelen Perhaps. But the entire concept shouldn't be scrapped, and certainly not all at once, with collateral damage in the immense nature like it is here.
We actually agree here. Some simple module changes on both the nano and counter front would have sufficed (and sort out the acceleration issue)
Yup. /\
It's too bad CCP isn't a fan of incremental, thought-out change
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:38:00 -
[2654]
Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 28/07/2008 14:39:31
Originally by: Andnowthenews BE have the option to 100% pick and choose who and how many they fight because they are 1. static and 2. cloakers.
now, what other gameplay style lets you 100% pick and choose? what other gameplay style is even better because you can leg it if it starts to look a bit dangerous for you ...hmmm I wonder I wonder
Quote: They would never ever knowingly jump through a gate into a bubbled camp because they are not setup to deal with that sort of fighting. Nobody is saying that they do not get lots kills or that they can win outnumbered against certain types of gangs or that they annoy the hell out of certain alliances.
But the fact is that they do not run roaming gangs they run cloaking gate camps and as such this nerf is a benefit to that style of static pvp not a detriment.
A good FC would never jump into a system with no eyes on the other side. Only speed fitted ships do things like that because they are 99% sure they can burn back to gate or out of the bubble. The biggest danger? a single ship type or a nano*** bumping you before you reach the gate ... even then they are not much of a risk.
/edit typo |
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:38:00 -
[2655]
Actually, this is like the SWG CU upgrade ain't it :-)
-runs-
|
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:40:00 -
[2656]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:36:51
Originally by: Pushtan
You just cant see its uses, think about it...just TRY something new...like the first guy who tried a myrm with Arties or rather Auto's...people were like...WTF?! now its pretty much standard practice for anyone with half a brain.
Yes, you're right. The only way to effectively use an Ishtar or Myrmidon is to shield tank it and use non-racial weapons. This is good why?
Well for a start a myrm can sheild tank as well as it can armour tank, and it gets no bonii to its weapons.......both WORK, thats why.
As for the ishtar, well, why not try things? all i can do atm is EFT warrior stuff - when im back home, ill test it all out. But i suspect itll STILL be able to nano, 2 x tracking disruptors? IT DOESNT MATTER what you do...just TRY...
****es me off, all these tards saying ''ill cancel my umpteen billion accounts if this goes through''....that it? you can onyl do ONE thing with a ship or pvpstyle? christ, i think you should leave the game...
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:43:00 -
[2657]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:42:59
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:36:51
Originally by: Pushtan
You just cant see its uses, think about it...just TRY something new...like the first guy who tried a myrm with Arties or rather Auto's...people were like...WTF?! now its pretty much standard practice for anyone with half a brain.
Yes, you're right. The only way to effectively use an Ishtar or Myrmidon is to shield tank it and use non-racial weapons. This is good why?
Well for a start a myrm can sheild tank as well as it can armour tank, and it gets no bonii to its weapons.......both WORK, thats why.
As for the ishtar, well, why not try things? all i can do atm is EFT warrior stuff - when im back home, ill test it all out. But i suspect itll STILL be able to nano, 2 x tracking disruptors? IT DOESNT MATTER what you do...just TRY...
****es me off, all these tards saying ''ill cancel my umpteen billion accounts if this goes through''....that it? you can onyl do ONE thing with a ship or pvpstyle? christ, i think you should leave the game...
And you, as usual, keep missing the point entirely.
Suppose you accept the fact that a GALLENTE ship should be passive shield tanking and using autocannons. In that situation the Myrmidon is still better than the Ishtar, and there's no reason to fly an Ishtar.
Suppose you don't accept that ******ed shit up there and try to use racial weapons and tank (lol gallente) on them. The Myrmidon is still better than the Ishtar, and there's no reason to fly an Ishtar.
Hooray HACs being pointless.
Originally by: Redback911 Actually, this is like the SWG CU upgrade ain't it :-)
-runs-
Eve Online: NGEmpyrean Age
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
thoraxius demioses
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:44:00 -
[2658]
Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:58 Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:19
http://teamdynamicsskins.org/EVE/nanonerf.jpg
tell me why i woud bother witha tech2 mwd.. it costs more to run it.. it costs more pg. it costs more on the market.. and the rest of all the attributes are the same????
10secs reactivation delay.. thanks for makign the alrdy useless cap penalty bonus on my deimos .. even more worthless..
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:45:00 -
[2659]
Originally by: Archetype02
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Oh god lol, i like my ishtar...looks like im gonna have to actually tank it or something now...you know...like the old days?
Remember guys? i miss decent slugging 1 on 1, or even a few on 1, just as long as its fighting...not dieing. And yes i have died to a few vagas, now all i can think of is how to combat the new problems that will arrive....ADAPT...ive said this before in here..
sigh.. epic fail on the ishtar now.. what makes it better than a tanked dominix ?.... domi tanks better.. domi has more cap.. domi can run heavier highs.. "neuts.. etc.." wow gee thanks for making the ishtar worthless!
Ishtar has: control radius bonus, better resists, faster lock time, better align and warp flight time, it is green.
People flew ishtar's before the nanofad. People will fly them after. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:46:00 -
[2660]
''And you, as usual, keep missing the point entirely.
Suppose you accept the fact that a GALLENTE ship should be passive shield tanking and using autocannons. In that situation the Myrmidon is still better than the Ishtar, and there's no reason to fly an Ishtar.
Suppose you don't accept that ******ed shit up there and try to use racial weapons and tank (lol gallente) on them. The Myrmidon is still better than the Ishtar, and there's no reason to fly an Ishtar.
Hooray HACs being pointless.''
cba to try and clean that quote block up.
i dont use blasters/rails on a myrm for one reason. CAP. and i dont shield tank, im saying ive come across some that rival my own armour tank...
So, in conclusion, i wont be seeing you in a hac ever again, good stuff - at least you can stop *****ing now? meanwhile, us thinking men will try and figure a new way of working with the ishtar, if we choose to use it.
(didnt think so)
|
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:46:00 -
[2661]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg People will fly them after.
People fly Cyclones right now. What's your point?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:47:00 -
[2662]
Originally by: thoraxius demioses Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:58 Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:19
http://teamdynamicsskins.org/EVE/nanonerf.jpg
tell me why i woud bother witha tech2 mwd.. it costs more to run it.. it costs more pg. it costs more on the market.. and the rest of all the attributes are the same????
10secs reactivation delay.. thanks for makign the alrdy useless cap penalty bonus on my deimos .. even more worthless..
The cap thing on the mwd is skewed and will be fixed. Reactivation delay is only after being warp scrammed, you can keep running it like on TQ.
|
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:48:00 -
[2663]
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
Re-read my post.
I said extreme setups would get curbed more sharply. I also said that the avearge ship in a nano gang will see a smaller hit.
That example would be an extreme case, wouldn't you agree? (And frankly, if he got whacked by missiles at that even that speed, he's doing it wrong. Let me guess, flying solo in a close range head to head scenario. Please.... )
More to the point, this is the whole reason for testing on Sisi, to tweak things to the point where it is balanced and enjoyable for the speed tanker and the other players involved... win OR lose.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:49:00 -
[2664]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 14:51:56
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews BE have the option to 100% pick and choose who and how many they fight because they are 1. static and 2. cloakers.
now, what other gameplay style lets you 100% pick and choose? what other gameplay style is even better because you can leg it if it starts to look a bit dangerous for you ...hmmm I wonder I wonder
All of them tbh especially if you are fighting in your home systems with friendly posses on a station or gate. Why do ppl seem to ignore the fact that its the defenders choice to engage a roaming gang in their home systems or not?.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
A good FC would never jump into a system with no eyes on the other side. Only speed fitted ships do things like that because they are 99% sure they can burn back to gate or out of the bubble.
EXACTLY!.
So all defending alliances need do now is setup their jump bridges at choke points and jump over any gang that enters their space, bubble up and blob the gate. And as you say any good FC knowing that a alliance is gonna do this will not take his gang into that alliances systems in the first place. Like you say yourself only speed fitted ships stand a chance to get through (or away at a range so they can put up a fight) so with this stupid nerf roaming gangs are screwed.
TYVM.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:52:00 -
[2665]
Myrmidon being better than Ishtar?
Are you people dull? Ishtar can field heavy drones. There. That's it. Advantage.
And Ill anticipate what you dullards are going to say: you're forgetting the AC's/blasters that the mrmidon pilot is fitting.
And I'll say: you're forgetting the NOS/Nuets the Ishtar is fitting, along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Coupled with a faster lock time, align/warp time, speed, control radius (its got that bonus, duh), drone reserve....need I go on?
Silly nano-tards.
IN addition, that control raduis bonus (25km are lvl5?) allows that ishtar to speed away from a fight; using its drone 70km from the gate, letting them remote-**** targets while it stands safe from the action. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:52:00 -
[2666]
Originally by: RaTTuS Sisi up and running so go and start testing ;-P
The connection to the server was closed. Try it, and say it for CCP guys update this sh*t Sisi. over 3 months ago not updated.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:53:00 -
[2667]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:53:34
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ECM in the mids
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ECM
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg 4 slot tank
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:53:00 -
[2668]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Myrmidon being better than Ishtar?
Are you people dull? Ishtar can field heavy drones. There. That's it. Advantage.
And Ill anticipate what you dullards are going to say: you're forgetting the AC's/blasters that the mrmidon pilot is fitting.
And I'll say: you're forgetting the NOS/Nuets the Ishtar is fitting, along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Coupled with a faster lock time, align/warp time, speed, control radius (its got that bonus, duh), drone reserve....need I go on?
Silly nano-tards.
IN addition, that control raduis bonus (25km are lvl5?) allows that ishtar to speed away from a fight; using its drone 70km from the gate, letting them remote-**** targets while it stands safe from the action.
QFT
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:54:00 -
[2669]
Originally by: thoraxius demioses Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:58 Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:19
http://teamdynamicsskins.org/EVE/nanonerf.jpg
tell me why i woud bother witha tech2 mwd.. it costs more to run it.. it costs more pg. it costs more on the market.. and the rest of all the attributes are the same????
10secs reactivation delay.. thanks for makign the alrdy useless cap penalty bonus on my deimos .. even more worthless..
Interesting .... watch prices of best named go nuts. CCP will no doubt be tweaking, but without modifying % increase people will gravitate towards named. Also did I read that webs are getting a increase in range? |
Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:54:00 -
[2670]
Straight from SiSi...
Vagabond:
10MN MWD II (Acc. Control LvL 5) 3x OD II
No implants, hardwirings or rigs = 3500m/sec.
And yes... 3x OD II is the best you can do with the now changed Nanofiber's or Polycarbons. .
|
|
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:55:00 -
[2671]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 14:19:15
Originally by: Ranger 1
Yes because the roaming gang was impossible in 0.0 alliance space even before the prevelance of nano gangs after jump bridges and bubbles came into gangs.
Oh wait...
Well, anyway, fast moving, well scouted gangs will be impossible after these changes.
Not imposable but much harder if you got camped even with nanos as they are. With the nerf it will be suicide.
Originally by: Ranger 1
But they will get caught in those bubbles so easily.
Of course the bubbles will be smaller post changes...
Is this the "whats heavier a pound of lead or a pound of feathers" argument?.
If they reduce the size of bubbles im sure ppl with Eisenstein's level of pvp intelligence will figure things out. HHMM let me think PUT MORE BUBBLES DOWN!!!!. WOW I MUST BE A GOD OF PVP KNOWLEDGE TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.
Originally by: Ranger 1
But being a bit slower, they will be webbed and helpless in those smaller bubbles.
Of course the webs will be far, far less effective post changes...
Who needs strong web effects (or if you do fit 2 its not like you need a scram with all those bubbles) when you have a multiple bubbled gate to burn away from that has a huge blob on it?.
I missed this one earlier.
I have to point out that if that was practical in all situations now, alliances would always be doing that currently and thus render even the current nano gangs you think are so necessary totally ineffective.
I'm beginning to doubt your level of experience in these matters, no offense intended.
|
Xyleya
moon7empler Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:55:00 -
[2672]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: thoraxius demioses Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:58 Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 28/07/2008 14:45:19
http://teamdynamicsskins.org/EVE/nanonerf.jpg
tell me why i woud bother witha tech2 mwd.. it costs more to run it.. it costs more pg. it costs more on the market.. and the rest of all the attributes are the same????
10secs reactivation delay.. thanks for makign the alrdy useless cap penalty bonus on my deimos .. even more worthless..
Interesting .... watch prices of best named go nuts. CCP will no doubt be tweaking, but without modifying % increase people will gravitate towards named. Also did I read that webs are getting a increase in range?
Nope, still 10km on SiSi right now. .
|
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:55:00 -
[2673]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 14:53:34
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ECM in the mids
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg ECM
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg 4 slot tank
Just leave him (Haakelen) to wallow in pity that his only style of play is now nerfed. forget it, he thinks the world is over
|
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:58:00 -
[2674]
Originally by: Euriti Here's your slight drop ranger1:
Quote: Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives. Before: 6.2k/s After: 2.7k/s
*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*
This is from a guy who tested sis.
2.7k with snake and faction fit ? Oh my.... Now coming the ludicrous slow speed.
|
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:58:00 -
[2675]
Hm. After playing around a bit on SiSi, two comments:
1) The MWD reactivation delay is bad. Seriously. (For those without SiSi: If you deactivate your MWD, you can't activate it again for a full cycle of 10 seconds)
This might be a nice thing to do to ships that use the MWD speed as a tank against damage, but for the ships that use (need to use) the MWD to keep a certain range - blasters to get close, projectiles (mostly) to stay at range - it's death. You have to react to speed changes of the hostile, and if he just waits for you to deactivate your MWD (which you must to hit anything and to preserve cap), and then activates his, he has 10 seconds to catch up with you (or to get away from you, in the case of blasters). Blasters might be able to use scram to compensate for this, but the projectile user can't. It's already a dangerous dance to stay out of web range while still doing useful amounts of dps (at least in ships that don't get falloff bonus). This is even worse than the effect of overheating, where the other person can overheat his MWD at very bad times for you and you need to wait until the end of the cycle until you counter. The overheating is difficult to use, this is easy to use.
Please drop that "feature" :-(
2) Missiles. Most nano ships never out-tracked their opponents, but rather out-ranged them (that's why the badly-tracking, but high-range pulse lasers can hit most current nano ships). Against pulse lasers, you can use tracking disruptors - a single TD, and all is well. Or you use ECM. Against missiles, there is no ewar at all. Not even ECM works usefully (thanks to f.o.f. missiles).
Missile boats have been boosted up a lot in the last patches. HAML boost, torp boost, now the speed reduction - this all is adding up to a system that now lacks drawbacks. A while back, missiles were tracking-free, long-range weapons which had the drawback of low dps. The low dps part has been removed (HAMLs and especially torps have very good dps in their weapon classes), and while range is now a small problem for them - 18km effective range for HAMLs, and 25km effective range for torps are both very good ranges for their weapon sizes, but not the longest ones - they have the option to switch to javelins and get about the best ranges with their dps in their respective classes.
Missiles need rebalancing.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:00:00 -
[2676]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 14:51:56
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews BE have the option to 100% pick and choose who and how many they fight because they are 1. static and 2. cloakers.
now, what other gameplay style lets you 100% pick and choose? what other gameplay style is even better because you can leg it if it starts to look a bit dangerous for you ...hmmm I wonder I wonder
All of them tbh especially if you are fighting in your home systems with friendly posses on a station or gate. Why do ppl seem to ignore the fact that its the defenders choice to engage a roaming gang in their home systems or not?.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
A good FC would never jump into a system with no eyes on the other side. Only speed fitted ships do things like that because they are 99% sure they can burn back to gate or out of the bubble.
EXACTLY!.
So all defending alliances need do now is setup their jump bridges at choke points and jump over any gang that enters their space, bubble up and blob the gate. And as you say any good FC knowing that a alliance is gonna do this will not take his gang into that alliances systems in the first place. Like you say yourself only speed fitted ships stand a chance to get through (or away at a range so they can put up a fight) so with this stupid nerf roaming gangs are screwed.
TYVM.
Good! You can finally defend your frickin region! Roaming gangs have always been a problem because they're hard to pin down! This'll help protect everyone!
In addition, how can you really make a blanket assumption that this will kill roaming gangs? That at the very first jump into a region, a force larger than yours will immeadetly be formed and make the correct guess as to where you're going?
In addition, how long does it take for that defense gang's request to get filled, formed, adn deployed against you? Seriously, im asking you to guess. Even for a fast alliance, 10min? Add travel time, thinking time, all that, anotehr 5-10min. What are you doing? At most you enter a region, do some quick passes with scouts, gate camp an entry gate to a station system, then MOVE ON. You go to another alliances region where the klaxon hasnt been wrung.
----------------- Friends Forever |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:01:00 -
[2677]
Originally by: Ranger 1
I missed this one earlier.
I have to point out that if that was practical in all situations now, alliances would always be doing that currently and thus render even the current nano gangs you think are so necessary totally ineffective.
I'm beginning to doubt your level of experience in these matters, no offense intended.
Most alliances i have fought over the last few months love to jump over you using bridges and camp the other side of a gate in a cyno jammed "choke point" system with capitals or not in their blob including MM btw.
With the nano nerf it will be the preferred if not exclusive defensive tactic in eve and be honest you know it will cos no gang will want to enter space they are gonna get trapped in until the blobbers logoff.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:01:00 -
[2678]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Good! You can finally defend your frickin region! Roaming gangs have always been a problem because they're hard to pin down! This'll help protect everyone!
No commentary is required.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:03:00 -
[2679]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Myrmidon being better than Ishtar?
Are you people dull? Ishtar can field heavy drones. There. That's it. Advantage.
And Ill anticipate what you dullards are going to say: you're forgetting the AC's/blasters that the mrmidon pilot is fitting.
And I'll say: you're forgetting the NOS/Nuets the Ishtar is fitting, along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Coupled with a faster lock time, align/warp time, speed, control radius (its got that bonus, duh), drone reserve....need I go on?
Silly nano-tards.
IN addition, that control raduis bonus (25km are lvl5?) allows that ishtar to speed away from a fight; using its drone 70km from the gate, letting them remote-**** targets while it stands safe from the action.
EXCELLENT FOUR SLOT TANK
ECM IN THE MIDS
CONTROL RADIUS BONUS
BUY TODAY, DON'T DELAY
50% OFF
p.s. Drone control range bonus is really useful when you're limited to like 1.5k/sec with a tank and can't scramble outside of 30km anway
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:04:00 -
[2680]
Quote: what other gameplay style lets you 100% pick and choose? what other gameplay style is even better because you can leg it if it starts to look a bit dangerous for you ...hmmm I wonder I wonder
Originally by: Andnowthenews
All of them tbh especially if you are fighting in your home systems with friendly posses on a station or gate. Why do ppl seem to ignore the fact that its the defenders choice to engage a roaming gang in their home systems or not?.
Yes defenders have an advantage, but they have to come out of their pos's and stations and then they are vulnerable. With nano's it does not matter if they are in their pos's or not, you are mostly invulnerable.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece A good FC would never jump into a system with no eyes on the other side. Only speed fitted ships do things like that because they are 99% sure they can burn back to gate or out of the bubble.
EXACTLY!.
So all defending alliances need do now is setup their jump bridges at choke points and jump over any gang that enters their space, bubble up and blob the gate. And as you say any good FC knowing that a alliance is gonna do this will not take his gang into that alliances systems in the first place. Like you say yourself only speed fitted ships stand a chance to get through (or away at a range so they can put up a fight) so with this stupid nerf roaming gangs are screwed.
TYVM.
WTF? You are saying that because a good FC wouldnt jump into a system where the gate was held by a superior force is the reason that nano's need to stay? You find another target in that case, you make them come to you .... of course this is all for roaming, for an invasion all bets are off and there will be blobs (as there are in this situation now when someone wants to attack a system). vOv |
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kOZMIC sNIPER
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:04:00 -
[2681]
Edited by: kOZMIC sNIPER on 28/07/2008 15:05:09 To whom it may concern:
Devs your patch sucks D1ck!
You ruined this game, if you apply this changes.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:06:00 -
[2682]
This...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Good! You can finally defend your frickin region! Roaming gangs have always been a problem because they're hard to pin down! This'll help protect everyone!
Then this...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
In addition, how can you really make a blanket assumption that this will kill roaming gangs? That at the very first jump into a region, a force larger than yours will immeadetly be formed and make the correct guess as to where you're going?
In addition, how long does it take for that defense gang's request to get filled, formed, adn deployed against you? Seriously, im asking you to guess. Even for a fast alliance, 10min? Add travel time, thinking time, all that, anotehr 5-10min. What are you doing? At most you enter a region, do some quick passes with scouts, gate camp an entry gate to a station system, then MOVE ON. You go to another alliances region where the klaxon hasnt been wrung.
Is he arguing with me or himself or both of us lol i cannot tell????.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:06:00 -
[2683]
Oh boy, I'd certainly like to be able to test this garbage (Because how dare we criticize your horseshit viewpoints without 'direct experience with the new mechanics'), but since your test server is such complete garbage, I can't even log in.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:07:00 -
[2684]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 15:06:05 Oh boy, I'd certainly like to be able to test this garbage (Because how dare we criticize your horseshit viewpoints without 'direct experience with the new mechanics'), but since your test server is such complete shit, I can't even log in.
lolwordfilter
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Ravn Silverclaw
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:07:00 -
[2685]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:07:00 -
[2686]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Hm. After playing around a bit on SiSi, two comments:
1) The MWD reactivation delay is bad. Seriously. (For those without SiSi: If you deactivate your MWD, you can't activate it again for a full cycle of 10 seconds)
This might be a nice thing to do to ships that use the MWD speed as a tank against damage, but for the ships that use (need to use) the MWD to keep a certain range - blasters to get close, projectiles (mostly) to stay at range - it's death. You have to react to speed changes of the hostile, and if he just waits for you to deactivate your MWD (which you must to hit anything and to preserve cap), and then activates his, he has 10 seconds to catch up with you (or to get away from you, in the case of blasters). Blasters might be able to use scram to compensate for this, but the projectile user can't. It's already a dangerous dance to stay out of web range while still doing useful amounts of dps (at least in ships that don't get falloff bonus). This is even worse than the effect of overheating, where the other person can overheat his MWD at very bad times for you and you need to wait until the end of the cycle until you counter. The overheating is difficult to use, this is easy to use.
Please drop that "feature" :-(
2) Missiles. Most nano ships never out-tracked their opponents, but rather out-ranged them (that's why the badly-tracking, but high-range pulse lasers can hit most current nano ships). Against pulse lasers, you can use tracking disruptors - a single TD, and all is well. Or you use ECM. Against missiles, there is no ewar at all. Not even ECM works usefully (thanks to f.o.f. missiles).
Missile boats have been boosted up a lot in the last patches. HAML boost, torp boost, now the speed reduction - this all is adding up to a system that now lacks drawbacks. A while back, missiles were tracking-free, long-range weapons which had the drawback of low dps. The low dps part has been removed (HAMLs and especially torps have very good dps in their weapon classes), and while range is now a small problem for them - 18km effective range for HAMLs, and 25km effective range for torps are both very good ranges for their weapon sizes, but not the longest ones - they have the option to switch to javelins and get about the best ranges with their dps in their respective classes.
Missiles need rebalancing.
I most deffinantly agree with the reactivation time on that. I'd say 5seconds will accomplish what they're going for (preventing momentum from taking nerfed nano's out of warp disrupter range) while not harming those reliant on intelligent MWD use.
Missles though?
Ill start by agreeing with you on the torp boost: it makes Ravens viable combat BS, but it really turns them a bit OP. Even with a slow explosion radius and really low range they still seem too boosted. Esp. stacked against a blaster ship. But eh, they're useless against any ship smaller than a BS. So eh, wash.
But to say that missles just pwn in pvp is a little misguided. They've never really been huge because of travel time, explosion radius against smaller targets, and the fact that some ships can just outpace them. You'll never know frustration like that of a cerb pilot who has YET to get on a killmail on a gatecamp because his missles just cant get to the kill fast enough. Add to all this the fact that their DPS is still the lowest of all the weapon systems and I think you have something that's balanced against a turret that can be TD'd or who's tracking can be defeated. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:11:00 -
[2687]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Ranger 1
I missed this one earlier.
I have to point out that if that was practical in all situations now, alliances would always be doing that currently and thus render even the current nano gangs you think are so necessary totally ineffective.
I'm beginning to doubt your level of experience in these matters, no offense intended.
Most alliances i have fought over the last few months love to jump over you using bridges and camp the other side of a gate in a cyno jammed "choke point" system with capitals or not in their blob including MM btw.
With the nano nerf it will be the preferred if not exclusive defensive tactic in eve and be honest you know it will cos no gang will want to enter space they are gonna get trapped in until the blobbers logoff.
Actually, I was refering to having multiple layers of bubbles at a gate, but eh...
Of course they are going to utilize jump bridges to position defense of their area. They do that now and will continue to do so. Thats kind of the point of having them.
You contend that if a gangs top speed is curbed a bit then the tactics that are currently sucessful for a raiding gang will no longer work.
I disagree. Or rather I should say that will only be true if the commander of the raiding gang has little or no experience.
My main point is that we should spend less time arguing, and more time testing and giving informed feedback... both pro and con... so that these changes work well for everyone.
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:11:00 -
[2688]
Originally by: Xyleya Straight from SiSi...
Vagabond:
10MN MWD II (Acc. Control LvL 5) 3x OD II
No implants, hardwirings or rigs = 3500m/sec.
And yes... 3x OD II is the best you can do with the now changed Nanofiber's or Polycarbons.
out of interest what kind of speed are you looking at with 2 pollys on a x3 OD II setup?
also im guessing that vagas are going to have a tough time with zelots after this nerf.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:12:00 -
[2689]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Myrmidon being better than Ishtar?
Are you people dull? Ishtar can field heavy drones. There. That's it. Advantage.
And Ill anticipate what you dullards are going to say: you're forgetting the AC's/blasters that the mrmidon pilot is fitting.
And I'll say: you're forgetting the NOS/Nuets the Ishtar is fitting, along with the ECM in the mids and the excellent 4 slot tank in the lows.
Coupled with a faster lock time, align/warp time, speed, control radius (its got that bonus, duh), drone reserve....need I go on?
Silly nano-tards.
IN addition, that control raduis bonus (25km are lvl5?) allows that ishtar to speed away from a fight; using its drone 70km from the gate, letting them remote-**** targets while it stands safe from the action.
EXCELLENT FOUR SLOT TANK
ECM IN THE MIDS
CONTROL RADIUS BONUS
BUY TODAY, DON'T DELAY
50% OFF
p.s. Drone control range bonus is really useful when you're limited to like 1.5k/sec with a tank and can't scramble outside of 30km anway
Im sorry, didnt realize we're talking about making a solopwn mobile. Was that what you were wishing? I was refering to small gang warfare.
Also, you didnt answer ANY of my points, though that rollseyes was really cute. Added weight to your troll post.
loser. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:13:00 -
[2690]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Yes defenders have an advantage, but they have to come out of their pos's and stations and then they are vulnerable. With nano's it does not matter if they are in their pos's or not, you are mostly invulnerable.
Nano ships are invulnerable to badly fitted, badly piloted, badly led gangs but then so are every other type of fit.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
WTF? You are saying that because a good FC wouldnt jump into a system where the gate was held by a superior force is the reason that nano's need to stay? You find another target in that case, you make them come to you ....
Considering we are talking about a choke point out of the area how do you suggest the gang leaves and finds another target. Also my version of eve seems to be missing the button that forces the defender who is more than happy to sit on the other side of the gate to jump through into me. Maybe you can link me your version pls.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:14:00 -
[2691]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Im sorry, didnt realize we're talking about making a solopwn mobile.
The Ishtar is the slowest HAC and turns the worst. Its weapon system is the only one that can be shot at and destroyed. It is heavily reliant on cap boosters. How the **** is that a solo ship?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Faydelm
Caldari Central Research Nexus
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:14:00 -
[2692]
Edited by: Faydelm on 28/07/2008 15:14:19 So I did some testing on SISI and my worry wasn't top speed but acceleration and agility and all that seems to be mostly gone with the patch, since polycarbs now don't decrease mass.
Are you supposed to slug it out with a ship like the vagabond now?
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:14:00 -
[2693]
Originally by: Andnowthenews This...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Good! You can finally defend your frickin region! Roaming gangs have always been a problem because they're hard to pin down! This'll help protect everyone!
Then this...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
In addition, how can you really make a blanket assumption that this will kill roaming gangs? That at the very first jump into a region, a force larger than yours will immeadetly be formed and make the correct guess as to where you're going?
In addition, how long does it take for that defense gang's request to get filled, formed, adn deployed against you? Seriously, im asking you to guess. Even for a fast alliance, 10min? Add travel time, thinking time, all that, anotehr 5-10min. What are you doing? At most you enter a region, do some quick passes with scouts, gate camp an entry gate to a station system, then MOVE ON. You go to another alliances region where the klaxon hasnt been wrung.
Is he arguing with me or himself or both of us lol i cannot tell????.
Does it matter? Answer the points. Learn to debate and not troll. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:16:00 -
[2694]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Im sorry, didnt realize we're talking about making a solopwn mobile.
The Ishtar is the slowest HAC and turns the worst. Its weapon system is the only one that can be shot at and destroyed. It is heavily reliant on cap boosters. How the **** is that a solo ship?
Same frickin piont for the myrmidon. Assuming you're the person who's been trying to tell the drone community that the myrm > ishtar, cause if you are, you've YET to address my pionts. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:17:00 -
[2695]
Your points aren't worth my time. Coming from the guy who said 'Finally! No more of those goddamn roaming gangs!', why should I bother?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:18:00 -
[2696]
Originally by: Faydelm Edited by: Faydelm on 28/07/2008 15:14:19 So I did some testing on SISI and my worry wasn't top speed but acceleration and agility and all that seems to be mostly gone with the patch, since polycarbs now don't decrease mass.
Are you supposed to slug it out with a ship like the vagabond now?
I'm at work at the moment, so I can't help you directly... but as a suggestion try putting on an Istab or two and test.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:18:00 -
[2697]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:24:39
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Andnowthenews This...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Good! You can finally defend your frickin region! Roaming gangs have always been a problem because they're hard to pin down! This'll help protect everyone!
Then this...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
In addition, how can you really make a blanket assumption that this will kill roaming gangs? That at the very first jump into a region, a force larger than yours will immeadetly be formed and make the correct guess as to where you're going?
In addition, how long does it take for that defense gang's request to get filled, formed, adn deployed against you? Seriously, im asking you to guess. Even for a fast alliance, 10min? Add travel time, thinking time, all that, anotehr 5-10min. What are you doing? At most you enter a region, do some quick passes with scouts, gate camp an entry gate to a station system, then MOVE ON. You go to another alliances region where the klaxon hasnt been wrung.
Is he arguing with me or himself or both of us lol i cannot tell????.
Does it matter? Answer the points. Learn to debate and not troll.
Fine il answer..
1. "Defending" would be stopping them coming in AND fighting them off, not stopping them going out or camping them in.
2. PVP is about fighting but you seem to think its about avoiding the fighting and forcing the gang to move away to another system (if every alliance does that roaming pvp would end). Id say that pretty must covers the fact that this nerf will reduce pvp and roaming gang.
Your turn mr troll watcher...
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:21:00 -
[2698]
Originally by: Haakelen Your points aren't worth my time. Coming from the guy who said 'Finally! No more of those goddamn roaming gangs!', why should I bother?
Now Im not a debater, and I've only taken it in HS as a requirement, but not addressing a persons points concedes them.
I've taken the time to analyze your filth and take it on point by piont without making a blanket "this is crap" statement.
And as for my VERY FIRST POST in a 10,000 post thread that I've personaly posted in >20 times, whoa, stop the presses! I've been annoyed with nano's ever since the rig patch. They've robbed this game of diversity of fits its soo pationately claimed to be a selling point.
The game will be better off imho, and that's why I caps-locked my first celebratory post. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:21:00 -
[2699]
on the reactivation delay.
it should scale by MWD size.
10sec for 100MN 7sec for 10MN 3 sec for 1MN
If I have to wait 10 sec in a frigate to be able to hit MWD, I might as well selfdestruct ... it would achieve the same result ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Alek Row
Minmatar Silent Step
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:24:00 -
[2700]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
1) The MWD reactivation delay is bad. Seriously. (For those without SiSi: If you deactivate your MWD, you can't activate it again for a full cycle of 10 seconds)
This might be a nice thing to do to ships that use the MWD speed as a tank against damage, but for the ships that use (need to use) the MWD to keep a certain range - blasters to get close, projectiles (mostly) to stay at range - it's death. You have to react to speed changes of the hostile, and if he just waits for you to deactivate your MWD (which you must to hit anything and to preserve cap), and then activates his, he has 10 seconds to catch up with you (or to get away from you, in the case of blasters). Blasters might be able to use scram to compensate for this, but the projectile user can't. It's already a dangerous dance to stay out of web range while still doing useful amounts of dps (at least in ships that don't get falloff bonus). This is even worse than the effect of overheating, where the other person can overheat his MWD at very bad times for you and you need to wait until the end of the cycle until you counter. The overheating is difficult to use, this is easy to use.
Please drop that "feature" :-(
That was the *feature* that concerned me the most. How certain ships that have a very small window to do a bit more damage than the opponent will be able to dictate range? Ships able to perma-run the MWD while having no problems doing damage will not suffer from this, ships that have to pulse the MWD to do some damage are affected, wtf?
Drop it. If you want to keep the feature than create a heat damaging effect to ships perma running MWD.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:33:00 -
[2701]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I've been annoyed with nano's ever since the rig patch. They've robbed this game of diversity of fits its soo pationately claimed to be a selling point.
The game will be better off imho, and that's why I caps-locked my first celebratory post.
Actually a diversely fleet of nueting and sniping BS and BC, webbers, logistics, ewar, long range scrams and fast tacklers piloted by trained ppl and led by a competent and knowledgeable FC would cause a lot of devastation to a roaming nano gang.
But as with a lot of things ppl would rather nerf others that have gone through the training than skill up and improve themselves to the same level.
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bluebeyond
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:35:00 -
[2702]
Fking stupid change.
Why don't you bother to sort out the actual problems in eve instead of fking up everything that's good about eve.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:36:00 -
[2703]
Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 15:36:30
Originally by: bluebeyond Fking stupid change.
Why don't you bother to sort out the actual problems in eve instead of fking up everything that's good about eve.
nano*** much?
it WAS diverse...but it became mainstream....you idiots made it a problem...not us or CCP
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:37:00 -
[2704]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg If you're thinking about something larger, like 25+ ships or so, then you're looking at a skirmish: larger numbers of people who actualyl want to have a mini fleet fight. I'm pretty sure no one is refering to those numbers, as you want to meet another opposing blob. IF that blobs bigger, then you chose the wrong time to attack (enemies prime time) or a bigger alliance. If that's so, then ya, maybe you should lose.
So your confirming that you think the larger blob should always win? Yea that's exactly why I play a game and try to think tactically to confront larger fleets than my own, just so I can be guaranteed to lose or not engage...
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bluebeyond
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:38:00 -
[2705]
Edited by: bluebeyond on 28/07/2008 15:37:56
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 15:36:30
Originally by: bluebeyond Fking stupid change.
Why don't you bother to sort out the actual problems in eve instead of fking up everything that's good about eve.
nano*** much?
it WAS diverse...but it became mainstream....you idiots made it a problem...not us or CCP
God it's not my fault i enjoy playing eve.
Don't be so stupid...
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:38:00 -
[2706]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Hm. After playing around a bit on SiSi, two comments:
1) The MWD reactivation delay is bad. Seriously. (For those without SiSi: If you deactivate your MWD, you can't activate it again for a full cycle of 10 seconds)
This might be a nice thing to do to ships that use the MWD speed as a tank against damage, but for the ships that use (need to use) the MWD to keep a certain range - blasters to get close, projectiles (mostly) to stay at range - it's death. You have to react to speed changes of the hostile, and if he just waits for you to deactivate your MWD (which you must to hit anything and to preserve cap), and then activates his, he has 10 seconds to catch up with you (or to get away from you, in the case of blasters). Blasters might be able to use scram to compensate for this, but the projectile user can't. It's already a dangerous dance to stay out of web range while still doing useful amounts of dps (at least in ships that don't get falloff bonus). This is even worse than the effect of overheating, where the other person can overheat his MWD at very bad times for you and you need to wait until the end of the cycle until you counter. The overheating is difficult to use, this is easy to use.
Please drop that "feature" :-(
2) Missiles. Most nano ships never out-tracked their opponents, but rather out-ranged them (that's why the badly-tracking, but high-range pulse lasers can hit most current nano ships). Against pulse lasers, you can use tracking disruptors - a single TD, and all is well. Or you use ECM. Against missiles, there is no ewar at all. Not even ECM works usefully (thanks to f.o.f. missiles).
Missile boats have been boosted up a lot in the last patches. HAML boost, torp boost, now the speed reduction - this all is adding up to a system that now lacks drawbacks. A while back, missiles were tracking-free, long-range weapons which had the drawback of low dps. The low dps part has been removed (HAMLs and especially torps have very good dps in their weapon classes), and while range is now a small problem for them - 18km effective range for HAMLs, and 25km effective range for torps are both very good ranges for their weapon sizes, but not the longest ones - they have the option to switch to javelins and get about the best ranges with their dps in their respective classes.
Missiles need rebalancing.
If its like that the MWD reactivation then I must say INCREDBLY stupid thing CCP. And that commign from someoen that support nanonerfs. A vaga thta can go 8 Km/s but with this reactivation delay is FAR FAR FARO WORSE than a vaga that can only go 3 km/s and don have this delay. You simply cannot kite anythign anymore.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:39:00 -
[2707]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 15:39:00 Countdown until CCP gives in fully to the ****ing whiners and nerfs Recons and Remote Rep, and the remaining skilled members leave.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:39:00 -
[2708]
Well, I've been on sisi, and despite the devs saying they weren't going to listen to any "kneejerk reactions" the nerf is as bad as everyone thinks. Basically it has made all hacs pretty useless, being easily killed compared to bc/bs which are far cheaper (with insurance) and require less skills to use. WTG CCP!!! You have succeeded in giving us yet ANOTHER useless class of ship.
|
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:39:00 -
[2709]
Originally by: bluebeyond Edited by: bluebeyond on 28/07/2008 15:37:56
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 15:36:30
Originally by: bluebeyond Fking stupid change.
Why don't you bother to sort out the actual problems in eve instead of fking up everything that's good about eve.
nano*** much?
it WAS diverse...but it became mainstream....you idiots made it a problem...not us or CCP
God it's not my fault i enjoy playing eve.
Don't be so stupid...
so stop *****ing cus youre losing your advantage over other players who chose not to skill up that way and work around the problem...'dont be so stupid'
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:40:00 -
[2710]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 15:31:06
Originally by: Alek Row
That was the *feature* that concerned me the most. How certain ships that have a very small window to do a bit more damage than the opponent will be able to dictate range? Ships able to perma-run the MWD while having no problems doing damage will not suffer from this, ships that have to pulse the MWD to do some damage are affected, wtf?
Drop it. If you want to keep the feature than create a heat damaging effect to ships perma running MWD.
*Edit* Or at least give us a skill to decrease the delay.
A new skill I need just to use my ****ing battleship which has worked fine for a year? No, they should just drop it.
Im with ya there, f a new skill.
Im kinda skeptical of the need too. After all the speed nerfs, ships are going to be topping out at reasonable speeds already, why do we need the reactivation delay?
Is it to prevent people from reactivating their MWD after they've been snared by a warp disrupter on the gate? To stop them from using momentum to carry them out of the range and just reactivating the MWD? That could be a problem, maybe, guess testing will tell. but im thinking 10 seconds is too long, something like 5 or less would be more reasonable. ----------------- Friends Forever |
|
Polinus
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:42:00 -
[2711]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Im sorry, didnt realize we're talking about making a solopwn mobile.
The Ishtar is the slowest HAC and turns the worst. Its weapon system is the only one that can be shot at and destroyed. It is heavily reliant on cap boosters. How the **** is that a solo ship?
Because it can deal 100% of its dps independent form his own speed. That is a very good thing.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:43:00 -
[2712]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Now, defending is getting the roaming gang to leave your area or destroy them. No alliance is going to camp its ingress/egress systems 24/7. If you've managed to stay in an alliances region long enough for them to camp you that strong at a specific point ahead of you, then shame on you.
Also, so what, they've camped you at a system using jump bridges. Welp, move to another system to leave. Or, if they have multiple regions, move through a jump that's longer than 5ly (jump bridges have limited range) and you'll defeat their jump ahead strategy.
Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it so they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed. The type of gangs that are looking for solo ganks can do what you say but those looking for a mid sized gang battle need to stick around for the opposing gang to form up.
But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally **** the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate.
Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use then to cut off a gang than to go through the gates.
I do not know how you cannot see how this nerf will reduce the amount and quality of pvp in eve unless its because you do not want to cos it will; make your ratting and home systems so much safer.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:44:00 -
[2713]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I've been annoyed with nano's ever since the rig patch. They've robbed this game of diversity of fits its soo pationately claimed to be a selling point.
The game will be better off imho, and that's why I caps-locked my first celebratory post.
Actually a diversely fleet of nueting and sniping BS and BC, webbers, logistics, ewar, long range scrams and fast tacklers piloted by trained ppl and led by a competent and knowledgeable FC would cause a lot of devastation to a roaming nano gang.
But as with a lot of things ppl would rather nerf others that have gone through the training than skill up and improve themselves to the same level.
The thread has moved away from that argument as its unsustainable. To even catch the nano gang you'll need an amount of nano's equal to the nanogang or a ton of nano'd huginns/rapier. Once those guys are locked down, sure, use the support. OFc, those nano's are now 150km off the gate by now. So why even bring other ships, when your gang can more effectively kill the speed freaks with even mroe speed freaks.
You just cant lock down the buggers without more of teh buggers; they can just always fly away. That's the problem. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:45:00 -
[2714]
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg If you're thinking about something larger, like 25+ ships or so, then you're looking at a skirmish: larger numbers of people who actualyl want to have a mini fleet fight. I'm pretty sure no one is refering to those numbers, as you want to meet another opposing blob. IF that blobs bigger, then you chose the wrong time to attack (enemies prime time) or a bigger alliance. If that's so, then ya, maybe you should lose.
So your confirming that you think the larger blob should always win? Yea that's exactly why I play a game and try to think tactically to confront larger fleets than my own, just so I can be guaranteed to lose or not engage...
Wait, this statement of yours can go both ways. If I were to confront a gang of nanos on my Raven should I also have a chance to win against them? Because at the moment that is definitely not the case.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:46:00 -
[2715]
Originally by: Exlegion
Wait, this statement of yours can go both ways. If I were to confront a gang of nanos on my Raven should I also have a chance to win against them? Because at the moment that is definitely not the case.
Hydra member
crying about his raven
dis is me lollin
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:48:00 -
[2716]
Edited by: Exlegion on 28/07/2008 15:50:50
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Exlegion
Wait, this statement of yours can go both ways. If I were to confront a gang of nanos on my Raven should I also have a chance to win against them? Because at the moment that is definitely not the case.
Hydra member
crying about his raven
dis is me lollin
Once you're done "lollin" would you care in answering the question?
Edit: By the way, I can act just as immature as you and accuse you of crying about your nano. But I'm hoping we can keep this conversation between adults. Otherwise take your alliance biggotry to CAOD.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:50:00 -
[2717]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:51:46
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Exlegion
Wait, this statement of yours can go both ways. If I were to confront a gang of nanos on my Raven should I also have a chance to win against them? Because at the moment that is definitely not the case.
Hydra member
crying about his raven
dis is me lollin
Once you're done "lollin" would you care in answering the question?
If it was a gang of heavily tanked BC's with ECM would you be crying for a nerf just cos they could beat you as well?. Any well balanced or unbalanced gang for that matter could kill a solo ratting raven bud.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:50:00 -
[2718]
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg If you're thinking about something larger, like 25+ ships or so, then you're looking at a skirmish: larger numbers of people who actualyl want to have a mini fleet fight. I'm pretty sure no one is refering to those numbers, as you want to meet another opposing blob. IF that blobs bigger, then you chose the wrong time to attack (enemies prime time) or a bigger alliance. If that's so, then ya, maybe you should lose.
So your confirming that you think the larger blob should always win? Yea that's exactly why I play a game and try to think tactically to confront larger fleets than my own, just so I can be guaranteed to lose or not engage...
OKs. So, assuming everything is equal, and assuming some randomness with hits and such, you're claiming that a fleet of strength 1, should have a good chance against another fleet that has a sizeable size advantage? Like a fleet that's half again bigger? Twice?
Again, everything equal.
In addition, Im assuming you're claiming that a smaller nano-gang can beat odds that are much greater? First of all, why should one ship be that much stronger. Second, nanos could never do that feat to begin with. They dont have the DPS, and just CANT lock down a fleet that is that much stronger. If you have 10-20 nano zipping around a fleet of 50, and that fleet just cant hit them, they're not going to stay and let you needle them to death.
And lets say your nanogang gets 2 or 3 kills on that superior gang, and that gang realizes its futile and leaves the system. Have you won? Or have you annoyed the opposing gang to leaving? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:54:00 -
[2719]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:51:46
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Exlegion
Wait, this statement of yours can go both ways. If I were to confront a gang of nanos on my Raven should I also have a chance to win against them? Because at the moment that is definitely not the case.
Hydra member
crying about his raven
dis is me lollin
Once you're done "lollin" would you care in answering the question?
If it was a gang of heavily tanked BC's with ECM would you be crying for a nerf just cos they could beat you as well?. Any well balanced or unbalanced gang for that matter could kill a solo ratting raven bud.
Straife said:
Quote: So your confirming that you think the larger blob should always win? Yea that's exactly why I play a game and try to think tactically to confront larger fleets than my own, just so I can be guaranteed to lose or not engage...
You have answered his question then. All he has to do is replace "Raven" with "nano".
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:55:00 -
[2720]
I startign to think we shoudl have 1 thread in features forum for each feature on this NERF patch. So we can be clear on what we like what we dislike etc. Woudl make much easier for devs to get the whole reaction picture.
I for once liked every thing but HATED 100% the MWD reactivation delay. THAt single change really kills minmatar completely. No more kiting. The enemy just need to wait you shut your MWD off 1 cycle then they activate their own and will ALWAYS catch you before you can reactivate yours. is there a secret agenda to completely remove all tempests from the game? because this seems the case with this change.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
|
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:56:00 -
[2721]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Straife
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg If you're thinking about something larger, like 25+ ships or so, then you're looking at a skirmish: larger numbers of people who actualyl want to have a mini fleet fight. I'm pretty sure no one is refering to those numbers, as you want to meet another opposing blob. IF that blobs bigger, then you chose the wrong time to attack (enemies prime time) or a bigger alliance. If that's so, then ya, maybe you should lose.
So your confirming that you think the larger blob should always win? Yea that's exactly why I play a game and try to think tactically to confront larger fleets than my own, just so I can be guaranteed to lose or not engage...
OKs. So, assuming everything is equal, and assuming some randomness with hits and such, you're claiming that a fleet of strength 1, should have a good chance against another fleet that has a sizeable size advantage? Like a fleet that's half again bigger? Twice?
Again, everything equal.
In addition, Im assuming you're claiming that a smaller nano-gang can beat odds that are much greater? First of all, why should one ship be that much stronger. Second, nanos could never do that feat to begin with. They dont have the DPS, and just CANT lock down a fleet that is that much stronger. If you have 10-20 nano zipping around a fleet of 50, and that fleet just cant hit them, they're not going to stay and let you needle them to death.
And lets say your nanogang gets 2 or 3 kills on that superior gang, and that gang realizes its futile and leaves the system. Have you won? Or have you annoyed the opposing gang to leaving?
You have given them a education on how to bring the correct ships for the right job. Why should every engagement end in one side losing all or most of its ships?. Some of the most entertaining ang tactical fights ive had in eve ended with each side only losing a couple of ships but the maneuvering and repositioning, use of ewar and sheer piloting fun that we had was worth a thousand f1-f8 slug fests.
|
Aya
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:57:00 -
[2722]
Edited by: Aya on 28/07/2008 16:00:26 Edited by: Aya on 28/07/2008 15:57:14 Nerfing nanos is going to nerf one major factor of pvp in this game and thats bumping.
Test server Machariel that was doing 13km/sec is now down to 3.3km/sec. Before everyone cheers, everyone needs to remeber that at the moment the only counter to station camping Capitals is bumping them off. Unfortunatley your standard nanoship cannot accomplish this very easily and by nerfing these very rare, very expensive, and paper thin ships you will be nerfing the consequences that come with people wanting to station camp in carriers. Some stations have ridicoulas dock ranges up to 49km long (TVN and BWF) in which the locals regurally exploit this in order to scare off the hostile fleets with minimal losses. Even with nanoships at the moment it is nearly impossible to bump them outside of their own dock range and now stations with 5km or 10km dock ranges will become just as impossible.
By nerfing nano hacs you will eliminate the fear of people to undock in heavily tanked battleships and station camp with them. Station camping will become the new eve pvp along with massive blobs and little consequence for people who want to undock and fire missiles at a their target til they need to deagress and dock.
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teji
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:58:00 -
[2723]
When they said that they were looking in to assault frigates. You thought that they were going to make assault frigates actually useful. They really meant that they were going to nerf everything to be as useless as assault frigates.
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Johncrab
Minmatar XBeyond
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:58:00 -
[2724]
You guys really can't use common sense can you Why the revolution ffs
Remove nanos from game, 90% of speed fitts will lose some 25% top speed. We have overdrives for speed and istabs for agility, why do we still have nanofibers when we want to nerf speed?
Funny thing that you guys implement FW with complexes where you can and should use mwd... everyone uses mwd, a few whines later... let's make a revolution in pvp guys! We are bored, don't feel like fixing the server for now, let's do something totally new!!! /sound of claping around the office |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:01:00 -
[2725]
Originally by: Aya
By nerfing nano hacs you will eliminate the fear of people to undock in heavily tanked battleships and station camp with them. Station camping will become the new eve pvp along with massive blobs and little consequence for people who want to undock and fire missiles at a their target til they need to deagress and dock.
Even if the server could handle the kind of ridiculous blobs you're going to need to kill heavily tanked ships before they can deagress, how is that fun?
And don't say 'increase the aggression timer' either, that's the same ****ing 'fix the symptom not the cause' shit that CCP keeps doing and ruining the game.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:02:00 -
[2726]
A try it the sis, i say it this is a b*llsh*t. The Rogue Cy-2 implant goes to 6 from 7 slot and cant use with MY-2 implant. My Vaga and AF (jaguar with polycarbon) turn like a BC lol.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:02:00 -
[2727]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:48:07
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Now, defending is getting the roaming gang to leave your area or destroy them. No alliance is going to camp its ingress/egress systems 24/7. If you've managed to stay in an alliances region long enough for them to camp you that strong at a specific point ahead of you, then shame on you.
Also, so what, they've camped you at a system using jump bridges. Welp, move to another system to leave. Or, if they have multiple regions, move through a jump that's longer than 5ly (jump bridges have limited range) and you'll defeat their jump ahead strategy.
Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers or has at least equal numbers as them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it and enjoy it. So they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed. The type of gangs that are looking for solo ganks can do what you say but those looking for a mid sized gang battle need to stick around for the opposing gang to form up.
But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally r*pe the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate.
Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use them to cut off a gang than to go through the gates.
I do not know how you cannot see how this nerf will reduce the amount and quality of pvp in eve unless its because you do not want to cos it will make your ratting and home systems so much safer.
"Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers or has at least equal numbers as them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it and enjoy it. So they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed."
So they stick around for the opposing side to form up and get what they want? Where's the problem?
"But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally r*pe the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate."
So teh gang that's looking for a fight finds teh fight they were looking for. Mission accomplished.
"Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use them to cut off a gang than to go through the gates. "
Yap. But there's more than one way to leave a region. They camp something, go another way. Log off/on. Putz around behind the camp. IDK, do stuff. If you're under 10 pilots, do you think you're going to rouse a 150 pilot response? That the egress system is going to be bubbled wup with 50 pilots while there's two 50man gangs roaming around looking for you?
Essentially, your agrument is you need nano's to beat gate camps. because gate camps are alot more prevalent now because people can jump bridge ahead of you to choke points.
My argument is avoid the gate camps with scouts, who will tell you whats coming up (they're the inties that can beat gate camps still). Move to another egress system. Chances are that larger, superior gang that is camping the one system is going to get wise to you moving (unless you got a tail thats REALLY good) for a while. So its not like they're going to move instantly to the correct egress system your FC has chosen to leave teh region. That's assuming they have the JB's to that system.
Essentially, Im arguing that roaming gangs think a bit now. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:02:00 -
[2728]
Originally by: Exlegion
You have answered his question then. All he has to do is replace "Raven" with "nano".
We are talking about gang fighting and your bleating that you ratting raven is not a gang pwning tactical beast?.
Oh look a hydra member lol...NVM.
|
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:12:00 -
[2729]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Exlegion
You have answered his question then. All he has to do is replace "Raven" with "nano".
We are talking about gang fighting and your bleating that you ratting raven is not a gang pwning tactical beast?.
Oh look a hydra member lol...NVM.
No. I'm pointing out that a gang of nanos currently has the ability of taking out smaller size to same size gangs and escaping larger gangs when the numbers stack against them. A smaller gang of ships (none nano'd)don't get the option of escaping the larger gang of nanos. With the nerf a gang of nanos is now positioned so that if a larger "fish" comes along you will have the same chance as the smaller fishes you've been preying on.
And again, about the Hydra comments, would you care in taking that to CAOD as this is a discussion on nanos, not on how much you hate Hydra.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dinkytot
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:13:00 -
[2730]
Edited by: Dinkytot on 28/07/2008 16:14:48 Edited by: Dinkytot on 28/07/2008 16:14:03 With that changes most ppl will only go into PvP with other ppl if they have more pilots then the opponent fleet. Certainly ppl in Minmatar ships will only count as a half pilot.
|
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:15:00 -
[2731]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
But there's more than one way to leave a region.... Putz around behind the camp....go another way.
I put all these together as they are all mean the same thing but you listed them like they were not..
One answer JB CHAINS.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
They camp something
So much for roaming pvp not being effected...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Log off/on.
So "stop playing the game" is what you consider a option?.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
IDK
WOW a glimmer of honesty.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
do stuff.
Quality.
How about we all load up on t2 miner drones.
|
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:15:00 -
[2732]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Exlegion
You have answered his question then. All he has to do is replace "Raven" with "nano".
We are talking about gang fighting and your bleating that you ratting raven is not a gang pwning tactical beast?.
Oh look a hydra member lol...NVM.
No. I'm pointing out that a gang of nanos currently has the ability of taking out smaller size to same size gangs and escaping larger gangs when the numbers stack against them. A smaller gang of ships (none nano'd)don't get the option of escaping the larger gang of nanos. With the nerf a gang of nanos is now positioned so that if a larger "fish" comes along you will have the same chance as the smaller fishes you've been preying on.
And again, about the Hydra comments, would you care in taking that to CAOD as this is a discussion on nanos, not on how much you hate Hydra.
so basically what youre saying is now you can blob the shit out of people and they have to sit there and die to your ratting domis and ravens? yeah pretty much. Maybe you can get some motherships and a titan in every system and change your ticker to RAWR
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:17:00 -
[2733]
Originally by: Exlegion
And again, about the Hydra comments, would you care in taking that to CAOD as this is a discussion on nanos, not on how much you hate Hydra.
He cant, npc corp ... he probably mines a lot and eats babies. ... yeah yeah, I'm in an npc corp as well, but I dont mine *burp*. |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:20:00 -
[2734]
Originally by: Mr Rive so basically what youre saying is now you can blob the shit out of people and they have to sit there and die to your ratting domis and ravens? yeah pretty much. Maybe you can get some motherships and a titan in every system and change your ticker to RAWR
No. What I'm saying is your gang will now also be vulnerable to large numbers as small gangs are to nano gangs. Why are nano gangs OK to blob but it's not OK to blob nano gangs?
Every time I confront a gang of nanos I lose my ship. But now that you're threatened with the same fate you think it unfair you may lose yours?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:21:00 -
[2735]
Originally by: Exlegion Every time I confront a gang of nanos I lose my ship.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:21:00 -
[2736]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 16:23:44
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Exlegion
You have answered his question then. All he has to do is replace "Raven" with "nano".
We are talking about gang fighting and your bleating that you ratting raven is not a gang pwning tactical beast?.
Oh look a hydra member lol...NVM.
No. I'm pointing out that a gang of nanos currently has the ability of taking out smaller size to same size of badly led, poorly fitted, stupidly piloted, crapply chosen ship type gangs. And escaping larger badly led, poorly fitted, stupidly piloted, crapply ship type chosen gangs when the numbers stack against them.
A smaller gang of ships (none nano'd)don't get the option of escaping the larger gang of nanos or a gang of well piloted non nano ships either.
fixed for ya bud.
|
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:22:00 -
[2737]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Mr Rive so basically what youre saying is now you can blob the shit out of people and they have to sit there and die to your ratting domis and ravens? yeah pretty much. Maybe you can get some motherships and a titan in every system and change your ticker to RAWR
No. What I'm saying is your gang will now also be vulnerable to large numbers as small gangs are to nano gangs. Why are nano gangs OK to blob but it's not OK to blob nano gangs?
Every time I confront a gang of nanos I lose my ship. But now that you're threatened with the same fate you think it unfair you may lose yours?
Dude, im not afraid of losing my ship, at all, im afraid that when this patch comes out the only fights that you will see is huge blob fights in sov 3 systems with supercaps everywhere
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Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:23:00 -
[2738]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Exlegion Every time I confront a gang of nanos I lose my ship.
The maturity level from you is astounding. It's a waste of time arguing with you lot.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:24:00 -
[2739]
Edited by: Mr Rive on 28/07/2008 16:25:20 Also its got nothing to do with that, you guys dont fit to counter us, you just blob the crap out of everyone and hope your NPCing ships are good enough to face our 250m+ ships and when you cant do that with twice the amount of NPCing BS, you think the game is borked..
Edit: and i bet you ANY MONEY if we came down with 20 BS, and tried to fight you guys, youd just dock up, or bring in a titan and a couple of motherships
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Jengo Phatt
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:28:00 -
[2740]
And another nerf by CCP:
The implants CY-2 (Slot 7) and MY-2 (Slot 10) have been changed to Slot 6 (conflicts with Snake Omega). Besides that you completely destroy speed fittings you change implants that people have already plugged in.
How are you planning to compensate me and all the others for ISK spent on this implants that won't fit into their clones after this patch?
Best of all, it is mentioned on the dev blog as 'small change'! Please, CCP, for gods sake WAKE UP!
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:29:00 -
[2741]
And for all you idiots shouting ADAPT ADAPT, we did adapt, we brought out nano ships, when titans an motherships and sov 3 was brought out, but now that your stupid outdated ratting ravens cant take out our long range HAC's and nano HAC's you're screaming at CCP for a nerf, rather than opening your eyes and realizing that they are counterable, very easily, you just gotta stop being dumb and start getting organised. But as always, CCP are listening to the shouty shouty empire dwellers and destroying their game even more. Lets hope this thread changes things a bit eh?
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SirMario
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:32:00 -
[2742]
KILLING EVE ONE NERF AT A TIME.... let the crybabys that cry bout nanos... get their skills up and fihght nanos with nanos.........
i wonder if we cried bout the prices of GTCs they might nerf them too? .
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Arctur Ceti
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:32:00 -
[2743]
Originally by: Mr Rive And for all you idiots shouting ADAPT ADAPT, we did adapt, we brought out nano ships, when titans an motherships and sov 3 was brought out, but now that your stupid outdated ratting ravens cant take out our long range HAC's and nano HAC's you're screaming at CCP for a nerf, rather than opening your eyes and realizing that they are counterable, very easily, you just gotta stop being dumb and start getting organised. But as always, CCP are listening to the shouty shouty empire dwellers and destroying their game even more. Lets hope this thread changes things a bit eh?
If this doesnt convince them I dont know what will.
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Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:34:00 -
[2744]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:57:58
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit your blob style of defense down to the ground.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for dealing with roaming gangs ffs.
Nice attempt to avoid the point however.
Its you who is avoiding the point and the point is that 0.0 alliances will move into choke pointed areas or those covered by jump bridge networks and that will be the virtual end of roaming pvp as we know it cos a quick JB a few bubbles and a blob or titan and the roaming gang may as well log off or self destruct.
o/ sophisticatedlimabean
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:36:00 -
[2745]
Originally by: Evil Pookie
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 13:57:58
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Andnowthenews
MM are the biggest gate bubblers in the game its what you do with your caps titans and bridges so please this nerf will suit your blob style of defense down to the ground.
Unrealistic my arse its MM'S only real tactic for dealing with roaming gangs ffs.
Nice attempt to avoid the point however.
Its you who is avoiding the point and the point is that 0.0 alliances will move into choke pointed areas or those covered by jump bridge networks and that will be the virtual end of roaming pvp as we know it cos a quick JB a few bubbles and a blob or titan and the roaming gang may as well log off or self destruct.
o/ sophisticatedlimabean
Hey look it my stalker.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:37:00 -
[2746]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Andnowthenews All nano gangs risk losses unless they are fighting against total tards but then this is the real issue isn't it, the morons want the nerf cos they cannot be bothered to beef up on their piloting skills, ship fits and gang tactics.
Bleh, learn to quote FFS ..
And as others have pointed out several times yet you ignore them every single time, going into an enemy dead end constellation in a small bs gang that has a nice range of enemy caps and supercaps sitting around waiting to jumpbridge behind it is as contrived as it is likely to only end in one way. In the real world, a quick scout would have spotted the trap FC would have taken gang elsewhere .... unless you are suggesting that the small gang was an invasion force and couldnt go elsewhere?
If all else fails a "burn eden" fit would be employed and harass the hell out of the enemy.
This. Strategy is more important than fit.
So your strategy is to NOT go into others systems looking for pvp?. WOW your like a veritable god of tactical knowledge.....
Don't hate so much sophisticatedlimabean. Not everyone thinks your a complete and utter tool. Smile it could always be worse, you could be in the illuminati
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:37:00 -
[2747]
Originally by: Exlegion
Every time I confront a gang of nanos I lose my ship. But now that you're threatened with the same fate you think it unfair you may lose yours?
Because (what has been proven multiple times to you) you have no clue how to play this goddamn game.
2 days ago me (ishtar) + vaga + omen engage mega + raven + falcon on gate(in TVN). Sure they ran away (deaggro on gate, they were heavily passive tanked) but they could kill omen and vaga. Raven had hevy neut (i got hit by it in ishtar but i was injected), but vaga wasnt.
If you had a ****ing clue you would neut vaga (he was within 15km) and **** him new one with cruises drones and null on blasters and we wouldn tdo ANYTHING to stop ya because we couldnt. But you are hydra and you fail so much that you kept neuting injected ship and ignored most fragile toy in our gang.
Lets move on - p3 2 days ago. You lost 2 carriers to "nano" gang even tho we were vastly outnumbered and engaged at YOUR deathstar. Why is that your 50 man blob landing on our tacklers and close range HACs couldnt even tell WHO they pointed/webbed so POS gunners would kill em? Why your rapiers/ceptors instead of gang-banging one guy zoomes all around and got killed one by one? Guess you even fail if you try to use speed. Reason? not because nanos are overpowered but because you are naturaly inept in pvp.
No nothing will help it. Nanos nerfed? You will die to RR bs gangs. Or snipers. Or hac snipers. Or even nerfed nanos. Hello! - my zealot after nerf goes 2km/s i can overheat to 3km/s - thats ONLY t2 no implants. Guess what during that fight most of us didnt even use MWD. So yea basically thats it - learn2play or stfu.
Also: "my raven cant kill nanos". Funny my alt's raven got some nano kills and i use "OMG torps!!!". Ya know why? Because i have clue which you and ppl like you dont have.
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SirMario
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:40:00 -
[2748]
Let them cry more and more thats all they doo...lez start complaining bout pricesss and see if ccp does anything ........dogs....tell em to jump...they say how high....
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:41:00 -
[2749]
TBH, Scripts for webs
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Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:41:00 -
[2750]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: bluebeyond Edited by: bluebeyond on 28/07/2008 15:37:56
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 28/07/2008 15:36:30
Originally by: bluebeyond Fking stupid change.
Why don't you bother to sort out the actual problems in eve instead of fking up everything that's good about eve.
nano*** much?
it WAS diverse...but it became mainstream....you idiots made it a problem...not us or CCP
God it's not my fault i enjoy playing eve.
Don't be so stupid...
so stop *****ing cus youre losing your advantage over other players who chose not to skill up that way and work around the problem...'dont be so stupid'
Stop talking crap because stupid noobs like u will still be killed whatever happens, its not our fault most people cant be botheredto put the thought or time into engaging nano ships other than throwing numberas at the problem. CCP is punishing the players that use skill and adavance tatics to defeat enemies with upto 3 times there numbers and changing the game towards idiots who are to stupid to think of ways o counter nano ships.
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Aya
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:43:00 -
[2751]
Edited by: Aya on 28/07/2008 16:43:14 Deva dont forgot that they had cyclones with blasters fit, Megas with 1200 t1 artillery fit, and interceptors/battleships they were warping in at all different ranges (some 200km off and some right in the middle of our fleet). They have no clue how to fit their ships, fly their ships, or kill anything without Guristas in their name.
Because of all this hydra has now blocked their KB access to the general public because they are so afraid of spys and how horrible they are in pvp.
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Barsexual
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:43:00 -
[2752]
Edited by: Barsexual on 28/07/2008 16:43:23 ran some tests with a stopwatch... with complete removal of mass reduction bonus from mods and 1,590,000 mass increase on the Vagabond:
6-7 seconds to reach 5800m/s on Tranq 16-17 seconds to reach 3200m/sec on Sisi
Add 10 second mwd reactivation delay for taste
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Ikoras
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:44:00 -
[2753]
Edited by: Ikoras on 28/07/2008 16:44:54 Minnie race is now completely useless. Only 2 ships are useful. the cane and broadsword. and they aren't even close to the top of their class these notes go live I will most likely cancel my accounts
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NeOTM
Amarr Dopehead Industries FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:44:00 -
[2754]
Originally by: Ravn Silverclaw
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
/signed
Doing 4.7km in a interceptor (even lower in orbit) ain't enough to be safe in your "2-shots tank suicide ship"
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:45:00 -
[2755]
Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 28/07/2008 16:43:23 ran some tests with a stopwatch... with complete removal of mass reduction bonus from mods and 1,590,000 mass increase on the Vagabond:
6-7 seconds to reach 5800m/s on Tranq 16-17 seconds to reach 3200m/sec on Sisi
Add 10 second mwd reactivation delay for taste
But guys, the Vaga will still be useful!
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
WarGod
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:46:00 -
[2756]
"which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for."
I cba to read 106 pages so dono if this has been said but cant you just speed up missiles and drones abit?
Wog1 |
SirMario
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:46:00 -
[2757]
Originally by: NeOTM
Originally by: Ravn Silverclaw
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
/signed
/signed
Doing 4.7km in a interceptor (even lower in orbit) ain't enough to be safe in your "2-shots tank suicide ship"
signed
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Barsexual
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:53:00 -
[2758]
Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 28/07/2008 16:43:23 ran some tests with a stopwatch... with complete removal of mass reduction bonus from mods and 1,590,000 mass increase on the Vagabond:
6-7 seconds to reach 5800m/s on Tranq 16-17 seconds to reach 3200m/sec on Sisi
Add 10 second mwd reactivation delay for taste
oh yeah agility is a lot worse now
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:53:00 -
[2759]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
You claim that jump bridges allow a defender to jump ahead of a gang.
Ok, where's ahead?
Alliances can reposition JB networks enabling them to cut off egress points from large areas of their space. Making that space a place where if a gang should enter they can be easily bubbled and camped in and be forced to either log off or to jump into a well bubbled blob of caps and super caps.
Eventually most of the alliances with high sov in EVE will do this reducing pvp and mak8ing roaming gangs pointless as they will not be willing to enter such areas.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:54:00 -
[2760]
Originally by: WarGod "which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for."
I cba to read 106 pages so dono if this has been said but cant you just speed up missiles and drones abit?
I don't blame you. That was the first thing they attempted. Apparently it did some very twisted things in the current physics engine and would not work as a resolution.
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Aya
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:55:00 -
[2761]
Quote: Seems even stupider, doesnt it. But this is what you and everyone is claiming. This, after you all gave up the fact that nano's aren't overpowered. Because no one is claiming that anymore.
The anti-nerf crowd has now turned to this argument. Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again, that's damn ******ed.
Nanos are not overpowered, only the carebears claimed this. They are a perfect balance to blob warefare (which is all carebears know) and yes there will be no small gang pvp without nanos because the balance will have been removed because people who never bothered to learn this game decided to cry enough until it was changed into the game they know how to play
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Pete Stalker
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:56:00 -
[2762]
Local: Pete Stalker > 500m/s difference with gangmods + mindlink ... thats why i put 8,5 mil SP in leaderhip??? Pete Stalker > CCP you suck :P
Private Chan: [16:24:14] CCP Nozh > yo [16:24:16] Pete Stalker > hi [16:24:20] CCP Nozh > what are you testing with? [16:24:23] Pete Stalker > claymore [16:24:29] Pete Stalker > 8,5 mil leadership for nothing [16:24:30] Pete Stalker > great [16:24:41] Pete Stalker > thank you [16:24:43] Pete Stalker > ♥ [16:25:28] CCP Nozh > and your speed is increased by 500ms from what? [16:25:56] Pete Stalker > 16:25:44 Notify Speed changed to 2178 m/s without [16:26:07] Pete Stalker > 16:26:00 Notify Speed changed to 2657 m/s with gang mods + mindlink [16:27:02] CCP Nozh > ok [16:27:05] CCP Nozh > thanks [16:27:10] Pete Stalker > oh [16:27:11] Pete Stalker > and snakes [16:27:22] Pete Stalker > so bout 1 bil isk + 10 mil SP [16:27:23] CCP Nozh > what about them? [16:27:25] Pete Stalker > :P [16:27:53] Pete Stalker > that speed is with snakes [16:28:00] Pete Stalker > so [16:28:23] CCP Nozh > well it's a 25% increase, intended [16:28:36] CCP Nozh > you have to think of the speed in relative terms :) [16:28:43] CCP Nozh > 500ms is quite a lot after the changes [16:29:08] Pete Stalker > how are nano ships supposed to tank then? [16:29:58] Pete Stalker > speed is tank, nothing else, if you cant get enough speed you can as easily stop flying expensiv stuff like that and waste your SP somewhere else, until CCP swings it nerfbat again [16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out. [16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits [16:31:36] Pete Stalker > I just say your making a big mistake there... fly safe
There are only two types of aircrafts -- fighters and targets. |
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:58:00 -
[2763]
Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 28/07/2008 16:43:23 ran some tests with a stopwatch... with complete removal of mass reduction bonus from mods and 1,590,000 mass increase on the Vagabond:
6-7 seconds to reach 5800m/s on Tranq 16-17 seconds to reach 3200m/sec on Sisi
Add 10 second mwd reactivation delay for taste
I SAid and the turning speed is "ludicrous" slow. My AF like a BC. I hope the BS will be a Titan.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:59:00 -
[2764]
LOL so they are slowing ships and now they are gonna reduce everything else to compensate???????.
Howe about leaving it alone ffs.
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Alek Row
Minmatar Silent Step
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:03:00 -
[2765]
It seems that since Sisi update the discussion is now being carried here...
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:03:00 -
[2766]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
You claim that jump bridges allow a defender to jump ahead of a gang.
Ok, where's ahead?
Alliances can reposition JB networks enabling them to cut off egress points from large areas of their space. Making that space a place where if a gang should enter they can be easily bubbled and camped in and be forced to either log off or to jump into a well bubbled blob of caps and super caps.
Eventually most of the alliances with high sov in EVE will do this reducing pvp and mak8ing roaming gangs pointless as they will not be willing to enter such areas.
Okay, I was trying to let this pass and hope you got tired of this line you keep repeating... but apparently not.
In our alliance controlled space there is an alternate route leading to another region, and often opening a path to another area of our own controlled space, ever 2 systems on average.
Some of the routes go to other area's of space, some loop back in to our space at a distant point, most do both. That would be over a half dozen alternate paths you can take just off the main pipe. We won't talk about the other exit that takes you into large but dead end areas where a small gang can play endless games of tag with larger fleets... ignoring the choke points completely while locking down the stations and outposts in a sizable area (although in all honesty that is an unnecessary path to take, considering all of the better options for going in and out of our space)
Jump bridges can only do so much my friend, and small gangs can operate effectively, with moderate risk. There is nothing in the proposed patch that changes this, and this is acceptable to most folks I think.
Our area of space is far from uncommon.
So while in theory you make a valid point, in reality locking down an average area of 0.0 is not so easy, nor will it be. Another justification is going to have to be conjured up I'm afraid.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:05:00 -
[2767]
Originally by: Pete Stalker
... [16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out.
Here is the point. I they want to balancing the missiles, why not changing the missiles bonuses ? Why not make for caldaris new ammo against nanoships ? Why they make lot of ship to crap ? OMG
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:07:00 -
[2768]
Just got off SiSi, I knew the changes were gonna be stupid, unnecessary, and awful before, but man they are a whole hell of alot worse.
HAC's can't turn, MWD delay and 50-70% speed losses on my ships, not vagas, and not with top skillz, if you fly a vaga with top nav skillz your lookin at a higher speed loss.
These aren't the changes the Dev's were talking about regarding physics engines breaking or ludicrous speeds. These are fundemental changes to the way PVP is carried out. Just like i was talking about, blatant disregard for advanced PVP tactics and the result suits the noobs who can only add people to their fleets and F1, F2, F3
Nano before this would mean, lots of different roaming HAC/Recon ships in gangs, pushing far into enemy space, looking for fights. Typically going 60-100 jumps a night and maybe getting a fight or 2.
THIS IS OVER WITH, from Bubbles to Jump Bridges, to simply getting back to gates, the agility and speed have been so torched none of this is possible. You will not be able to engage outnumbered any moar, and the only thing that is required to win in a PVP fight is more numbers.
I don't know why the dev's even bothered with any of this, they should have just done what they wanted to all along and put concord in 0.0 because the end result will be the same.
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Sathrai
No Quarter. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:09:00 -
[2769]
Edited by: Sathrai on 28/07/2008 17:14:59 Things that I can agree with needing tweaking:
Snake implants and possibly the effects from speed-related gang links should be toned down. This is a correct statement. These two things make the *really* ludicrous speeds that people come to associate with the worst of nano-abuse possible.
Polycarbon rigs should remain mass reduction (not +speed +agility), but their effect should be ramped down to -10% or -7.5% so that nanofibers are more effective, much like overdrives are more effective than aux thruster rigs.
Warp scrambler idea is good. Ramping down the effect of webs is good too, but you should bump up the range a bit to compensate so that they're not being outclassed by the new scramblers as a speed denial tool. Maybe shave a bit off the bonus of the Hyena/Huginn/Rapier so that their web ranges remain similar.
Generally speaking, the 3 - 4km/sec HACs & recons are not a serious issue. Any medium gun with a bit of range can track them with relative ease, and their engagement band is usually within the range of heavy neutralizers. There you go, any cruiser gunship or battleship with a spare high slot or two can make those particular ships miserable. The real problems arise when you have guys going around with a ganglinking Claymore in tow and a head full of Snake implants. That is where countermeasures begin to break down hard.
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Kyle Haque
Solstice Systems Development Concourse Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:10:00 -
[2770]
"[16:28:43] CCP Nozh > 500ms is quite a lot after the changes [16:29:08] Pete Stalker > how are nano ships supposed to tank then? [16:29:58] Pete Stalker > speed is tank, nothing else, if you cant get enough speed you can as easily stop flying expensiv stuff like that and waste your SP somewhere else, until CCP swings it nerfbat again [16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out. [16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits [16:31:36] Pete Stalker > I just say your making a big mistake there... fly safe"
Dumbest thing I've heard from a DEV/GM The last thing we need is more dumb sweeping changes to this patch... So missle users be prepared to be nerfed
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:12:00 -
[2771]
Originally by: Sathrai Generally speaking, the 3 - 4km/sec HACs & recons are not a serious issue. Any medium gun with a bit of range can track them with relative ease, and their engagement band is usually within the range of heavy neutralizers. There you go, any cruiser gunship or battleship with a spare high slot or two can make those particualr ships miserable. The real problems arise when you have guys going around with a ganglinked Claymore in tow with a head full of Snake implants. That is where countermeasures begin to break down hard.
This. Edge cases and incredibly high-end setups that are exceedingly rare are being used in justification. CCP has admitted it (my Vagabond is fitted with the following), and don't seem to care.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:13:00 -
[2772]
Originally by: Sathrai Generally speaking, the 3 - 4km/sec HACs & recons are not a serious issue. Any medium gun with a bit of range can track them with relative ease, and their engagement band is usually within the range of heavy neutralizers. There you go, any cruiser gunship or battleship with a spare high slot or two can make those particualr ships miserable. The real problems arise when you have guys going around with a ganglinked Claymore in tow with a head full of Snake implants. That is where countermeasures begin to break down hard.
THIS THIS THIS THIS
|
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:14:00 -
[2773]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 28/07/2008 17:19:34
Before:
| | Speed | Mass | Inertia | Agility | |------------+-------+--------+---------+---------| | Tempest | 140 | 102.5m | 0.155 | 15.89m | | Megathron | 125 | 102.5m | 0.155 | 15.89m | | Apocalypse | 115 | 107.5m | 0.155 | 16.66m | | Raven | 115 | 110.0m | 0.145 | 15.95m |
After:
| | Speed | Mass | Inertia | Agility | |------------+-------+--------+---------+---------| | Tempest | 120 | 103.3m | 0.15 | 15.50m | | Megathron | 105 | 98.4m | 0.155 | 15.25m | | Apocalypse | 94 | 97.1m | 0.165 | 16.02m | | Raven | 94 | 99.3 | 0.155 | 15.39m |
Agility = Mass * Inertia Modifier (low is good!)
High inertia modifier means more (absolute) effect from agility modules.
So, some comparison:
Tempest: 85% speed / 97.5% agility Megathron: 84% speed / 96% agility Apoc: 81.7% speed / 96% agility Raven: 81.7% speed / 96.5% agility
Remember, low agility is good (that's a bit counter-intuitive). That is, all ships above have better agility now than before. Except that the Tempest has gained the least. Well, we all know that the Tempest has been the most overpowered battleship, it's time it's getting rebalanced. (If you have a sarcasm detector, be advised that using it on this post might cause severe problems)
To compensate, the base speed of the Tempest got nerfed the least. With the differences in mass, though, it is very difficult to say what speed you reach in reality. Sadly, I can't fly any BS but Minmatar, so can't give hard numbers, but Tempest (2x 1600mm plate, 3x trimark) is 1,094 m/s on TQ, 860 m/s on SiSi.
Edit: Also, Tempest has the highest mass, meaning it benefits from MWD the least. That can't be right.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:18:00 -
[2774]
Originally by: Ranger 1
In our alliance controlled space there is an alternate route leading to another region, and often opening a path to another area of our own controlled space, ever 2 systems on average.
Some of the routes go to other area's of space, some loop back in to our space at a distant point, most do both.
Jump bridges can only do so much my friend, and small gangs can operate effectively, with moderate risk. There is nothing in the proposed patch that changes this, and this is acceptable to most folks I think.
Our area of space is far from uncommon.
So while in theory you make a valid point, in reality locking down an average area of 0.0 is not so easy, nor will it be. Another justification is going to have to be conjured up I'm afraid.
So you are claiming that there are 0 points in your space that you can setup a JB chain and camp ppl in?.
Ive been in MM space a lot and like most large alliances a lot of your systems are empty even the ones with stations. It would take a bit of repositioning and thought but you could easily cut off a lot of your areas and set things so you could do exactly as i have said. Making areas of your space virtually 100% safe as after a few gang's jumped in and you camped them (while the carebears jumpbridge to another now safe area) eventually ppl would stop coming as all they would get is camped and have to log or jump into a bubbled blob.
And a lot of alliances will do the same tbh i know if i was in a alliance that had a big carebear contingent its exactly what i would do.
|
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:20:00 -
[2775]
This is it guys, jump in your ravens and 2-volley unwebbed interceptors with t1 cruise!
|
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:20:00 -
[2776]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 28/07/2008 17:25:04
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Before:
| | Speed | Mass | Inertia | Agility | |------------+-------+--------+---------+---------| | Tempest | 140 | 102.5m | 0.155 | 15.89m | | Megathron | 125 | 102.5m | 0.155 | 15.89m | | Apocalypse | 115 | 107.5m | 0.155 | 16.66m | | Raven | 115 | 110.0m | 0.145 | 15.95m |
After:
| | Speed | Mass | Inertia | Agility | |------------+-------+--------+---------+---------| | Tempest | 120 | 103.3m | 0.15 | 15.50m | | Megathron | 105 | 98.4m | 0.155 | 15.25m | | Apocalypse | 94 | 97.1m | 0.165 | 16.02m | | Raven | 94 | 99.3 | 0.155 | 15.39m |
Agility = Mass * Inertia Modifier (low is good!)
High inertia modifier means more (absolute) effect from agility modules.
So, some comparison:
Tempest: 85% speed / 97.5% agility Megathron: 84% speed / 96% agility Apoc: 81.7% speed / 96% agility Raven: 81.7% speed / 96.5% agility
Remember, low agility is good (that's a bit counter-intuitive). That is, all ships above have better agility now than before. Except that the Tempest has gained the least. Well, we all know that the Tempest has been the most overpowered battleship, it's time it's getting rebalanced. (If you have a sarcasm detector, be advised that using it on this post might cause severe problems)
To compensate, the base speed of the Tempest got nerfed the least. With the differences in mass, though, it is very difficult to say what speed you reach in reality. Sadly, I can't fly any BS but Minmatar, so can't give hard numbers, but Tempest (2x 1600mm plate, 3x trimark) is 1,094 m/s on TQ, 860 m/s on SiSi.
Lesser intertia good, but improved mass ? Larger mass = lesser accelerate. Oh no. Another stupid idea with 60% webs.Grat CCP Minmatar BS will be more worster.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:21:00 -
[2777]
I used to tell people who asked about Eve that all the negativity was wrong. More SP didn't matter as much, I would say, because you could specialize. You could find a nice ship that you like, get to within 2-5% of a multiyear vet, and work from there. Specialization was the key. The way to success was to NOT crosstrain all to hell. I feel really guilty for giving people that impression, and leading them into a game that will, overnight, do a complete 180 in terms of small-scale PvP. Into a direction that is nothing but negative.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:22:00 -
[2778]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Ranger 1
In our alliance controlled space there is an alternate route leading to another region, and often opening a path to another area of our own controlled space, ever 2 systems on average.
Some of the routes go to other area's of space, some loop back in to our space at a distant point, most do both.
Jump bridges can only do so much my friend, and small gangs can operate effectively, with moderate risk. There is nothing in the proposed patch that changes this, and this is acceptable to most folks I think.
Our area of space is far from uncommon.
So while in theory you make a valid point, in reality locking down an average area of 0.0 is not so easy, nor will it be. Another justification is going to have to be conjured up I'm afraid.
So you are claiming that there are 0 points in your space that you can setup a JB chain and camp ppl in?.
Ive been in MM space a lot and like most large alliances a lot of your systems are empty even the ones with stations. It would take a bit of repositioning and thought but you could easily cut off a lot of your areas and set things so you could do exactly as i have said. Making areas of your space virtually 100% safe as after a few gang's jumped in and you camped them (while the carebears jumpbridge to another now safe area) eventually ppl would stop coming as all they would get is camped and have to log or jump into a bubbled blob.
And a lot of alliances will do the same tbh i know if i was in a alliance that had a big carebear contingent its exactly what i would do.
But news, you are already in a corp that has a HUGE carebear contingent. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:26:00 -
[2779]
Originally by: Pete Stalker
[16:28:36] CCP Nozh > you have to think of the speed in relative terms :) [16:28:43] CCP Nozh > 500ms is quite a lot after the changes
500ms is nothing, this statement is hilarious
[16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out.
So instead of just limiting the top of the ludicrous speed bar, you went and effectively changed all combat regarding HACs, Inty's and Bumping BSs, ending small gang PVP, station bumping for capital station huggers, and eliminating the only effect tool for actually engaging blobs, so now you have to get even moar convoluted and change moar things jsut because you are so arrogant you can't realize the original concepts should just be scrapped? leading to moar changes, moar ret3rded balancing discussions and wasting moar time not fixing the real problems with the game only to create moar? gotcha!
[16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits
Flatt out the stupidest thing i have heard in 3 days. Unbelievable. This game is dead with people like him "balancing" things
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:26:00 -
[2780]
Originally by: Haakelen I used to tell people who asked about Eve that all the negativity was wrong. More SP didn't matter as much, I would say, because you could specialize. You could find a nice ship that you like, get to within 2-5% of a multiyear vet, and work from there. Specialization was the key. The way to success was to NOT crosstrain all to hell. I feel really guilty for giving people that impression, and leading them into a game that will, overnight, do a complete 180 in terms of small-scale PvP. Into a direction that is nothing but negative.
Spare me the dramatics. All a newb has to do now is train up a tank, and not max out navigation AND gunnery/missles. ----------------- Friends Forever |
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:27:00 -
[2781]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Ranger 1
In our alliance controlled space there is an alternate route leading to another region, and often opening a path to another area of our own controlled space, ever 2 systems on average.
Some of the routes go to other area's of space, some loop back in to our space at a distant point, most do both.
Jump bridges can only do so much my friend, and small gangs can operate effectively, with moderate risk. There is nothing in the proposed patch that changes this, and this is acceptable to most folks I think.
Our area of space is far from uncommon.
So while in theory you make a valid point, in reality locking down an average area of 0.0 is not so easy, nor will it be. Another justification is going to have to be conjured up I'm afraid.
So you are claiming that there are 0 points in your space that you can setup a JB chain and camp ppl in?.
Ive been in MM space a lot and like most large alliances a lot of your systems are empty even the ones with stations. It would take a bit of repositioning and thought but you could easily cut off a lot of your areas and set things so you could do exactly as i have said. Making areas of your space virtually 100% safe as after a few gang's jumped in and you camped them (while the carebears jumpbridge to another now safe area) eventually ppl would stop coming as all they would get is camped and have to log or jump into a bubbled blob.
And a lot of alliances will do the same tbh i know if i was in a alliance that had a big carebear contingent its exactly what i would do.
But news, you are already in a corp that has a HUGE carebear contingent.
Yea but i got concord if somebody shootz me.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:29:00 -
[2782]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 17:30:28
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Haakelen I used to tell people who asked about Eve that all the negativity was wrong. More SP didn't matter as much, I would say, because you could specialize. You could find a nice ship that you like, get to within 2-5% of a multiyear vet, and work from there. Specialization was the key. The way to success was to NOT crosstrain all to hell. I feel really guilty for giving people that impression, and leading them into a game that will, overnight, do a complete 180 in terms of small-scale PvP. Into a direction that is nothing but negative.
Spare me the dramatics. All a newb has to do now is train up a tank, and not max out navigation AND gunnery/missles.
And spare me your horseshit. I don't know a single person who finds huge, laggy fleet fights where you die without loading grid or die without activating a gun fun. I participated in fleet fights when I was in 0.0 alliances because that's what was required. There was no element of 'fun' in it.
Homogeneous 30v30 fleets full of either all gank or all tank, or heavy on ECM, aren't fun for anyone I know. That is why I and many others quit FW soon into it.
All a newb can to do now is train for a Drake, and have a high tolerance for boredom.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:31:00 -
[2783]
Skirmish mindlink now gives 15% agility instead of speed
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:33:00 -
[2784]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 17:30:28
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Haakelen I used to tell people who asked about Eve that all the negativity was wrong. More SP didn't matter as much, I would say, because you could specialize. You could find a nice ship that you like, get to within 2-5% of a multiyear vet, and work from there. Specialization was the key. The way to success was to NOT crosstrain all to hell. I feel really guilty for giving people that impression, and leading them into a game that will, overnight, do a complete 180 in terms of small-scale PvP. Into a direction that is nothing but negative.
Spare me the dramatics. All a newb has to do now is train up a tank, and not max out navigation AND gunnery/missles.
And spare me your horseshit. I don't know a single person who finds huge, laggy fleet fights where you die without loading grid or die without activating a gun fun. I participated in fleet fights when I was in 0.0 alliances because that's what was required. There was no element of 'fun' in it.
Homogeneous 30v30 fleets full of either all gank or all tank, or heavy on ECM, aren't fun for anyone I know. That is why I and many others quit FW soon into it.
All a newb can to do now is train for a Drake, and have a high tolerance for boredom.
That sounds ****in fun to me. Two fleets slugging it out, primaries being called, winner collects the loot. that's EVE. People would die for regular medium sized fleet battles like that. tacklers zipping around, snagging the next target, ECM trying to lock down their damage dealers. Remote reps being scurried around, people swearing as their tank fails, pods trying to race out.
And you want to zip around in a nano? Avoid large fights? Wtf is wrong with you kid? ----------------- Friends Forever |
ChuckNorris CRO
Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:34:00 -
[2785]
Don't touch anything please, leave like it is !
You already make a mess by boosting Caldari race and you want more with boosting missiles, nerfing nano/speed webbs and etc.
Losers/NOOBS and jelous lazy people around map screaming to nerf minority of guys who can buy snakes for billions and fly fast.
You need to work for something in this game, you cant just kill ratts and scream when someone catch you in the belt because you are poor and lazy to learn few things, you already have big help in cloaking and logofski/ no agro from npc, what more do you need from CCP !?
CCP turning this game to Caldari-Online wich is disaster for all other races, are we talking about some balance!!!!
CCP made great balance with Caldari race and what happend, some starter with few month of skills sit in Drake/passive tanking and tank (Sleipnir/vaga/2 intys-max skills) for such a long time that you could not belive- is that a good balance!?
But what the f... i want!?
Turn off all other races and lets everybody change to CALDARI, we will then have pure balance !
But you will need to change the name of this game to CALDARI-ONLINE ! :P
THIS GAME WILL BE PURE DISASTER !
Lot of mm online games collapse because of wrong development team and guys who do not know too much, tbh this game going in that way.
Good Luck.
Sorry on my bad english:)
|
Motaka
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:35:00 -
[2786]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:48:07
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Now, defending is getting the roaming gang to leave your area or destroy them. No alliance is going to camp its ingress/egress systems 24/7. If you've managed to stay in an alliances region long enough for them to camp you that strong at a specific point ahead of you, then shame on you.
Also, so what, they've camped you at a system using jump bridges. Welp, move to another system to leave. Or, if they have multiple regions, move through a jump that's longer than 5ly (jump bridges have limited range) and you'll defeat their jump ahead strategy.
Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers or has at least equal numbers as them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it and enjoy it. So they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed. The type of gangs that are looking for solo ganks can do what you say but those looking for a mid sized gang battle need to stick around for the opposing gang to form up.
But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally r*pe the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate.
Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use them to cut off a gang than to go through the gates.
I do not know how you cannot see how this nerf will reduce the amount and quality of pvp in eve unless its because you do not want to cos it will make your ratting and home systems so much safer.
Funnily enough yo,not all pvp takes place in 0.0,seeing as on 15% of the playing population live is 0.0. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
BaldMan01
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:39:00 -
[2787]
Edited by: BaldMan01 on 28/07/2008 17:40:42
|
Motaka
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:39:00 -
[2788]
16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out. [16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits
And this basicly sums it all up,and this why you lot are crying. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Super Twinkey69
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:40:00 -
[2789]
takeing advatange of not being banned to say
you guys are idiots,your ruining a huge portion of the game and if you go thru with this god will want you to die of cancer!
dont ruin the game for peopel that have put months of training into a way of playing the game because a group of people playing the game for a month complain about it-FAIL AT LIFE MORE plz
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:41:00 -
[2790]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:48:07
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Now, defending is getting the roaming gang to leave your area or destroy them. No alliance is going to camp its ingress/egress systems 24/7. If you've managed to stay in an alliances region long enough for them to camp you that strong at a specific point ahead of you, then shame on you.
Also, so what, they've camped you at a system using jump bridges. Welp, move to another system to leave. Or, if they have multiple regions, move through a jump that's longer than 5ly (jump bridges have limited range) and you'll defeat their jump ahead strategy.
Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers or has at least equal numbers as them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it and enjoy it. So they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed. The type of gangs that are looking for solo ganks can do what you say but those looking for a mid sized gang battle need to stick around for the opposing gang to form up.
But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally r*pe the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate.
Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use them to cut off a gang than to go through the gates.
I do not know how you cannot see how this nerf will reduce the amount and quality of pvp in eve unless its because you do not want to cos it will make your ratting and home systems so much safer.
Funnily enough yo,not all pvp takes place in 0.0,seeing as on 15% of the playing population live is 0.0.
Most of nano does as they do not tank gate guns to well tbh.
|
|
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:43:00 -
[2791]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 17:43:52
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Pete Stalker
[16:28:36] CCP Nozh > you have to think of the speed in relative terms :) [16:28:43] CCP Nozh > 500ms is quite a lot after the changes
500ms is nothing, this statement is hilarious
[16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out.
So instead of just limiting the top of the ludicrous speed bar, you went and effectively changed all combat regarding HACs, Inty's and Bumping BSs, ending small gang PVP, station bumping for capital station huggers, and eliminating the only effect tool for actually engaging blobs, so now you have to get even moar convoluted and change moar things jsut because you are so arrogant you can't realize the original concepts should just be scrapped? leading to moar changes, moar ret3rded balancing discussions and wasting moar time not fixing the real problems with the game only to create moar? gotcha!
[16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits
Flatt out the stupidest thing i have heard in 3 days. Unbelievable. This game is dead with people like him "balancing" things
Actually, no. In this case Nozh is quite correct. A speed tank should NOT mean evading all hits.
It SHOULD mean evading many hits, and softening the impact of those things that do hit you while you are at speed.
Unfortunately, things are currently weighted a bit too heavily toward your (apparent) point of view on the matter.
Thanks for proving the point however.
|
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:43:00 -
[2792]
Originally by: Motaka 16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out. [16:30:18] CCP Nozh > speed tank =! evading all hits
And this basicly sums it all up,and this why you lot are crying.
Yes. 1/3 time to training the missiles vs guns. Achura best class in game. Drake,Nighthawk,Onyx overpowered passive tank. ECm overpowered too. And what happening now ? Missile spam for everyone. Yup this will be Caldari Online.
|
Motaka
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:44:00 -
[2793]
Edited by: Motaka on 28/07/2008 17:45:28
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 15:48:07
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Now, defending is getting the roaming gang to leave your area or destroy them. No alliance is going to camp its ingress/egress systems 24/7. If you've managed to stay in an alliances region long enough for them to camp you that strong at a specific point ahead of you, then shame on you.
Also, so what, they've camped you at a system using jump bridges. Welp, move to another system to leave. Or, if they have multiple regions, move through a jump that's longer than 5ly (jump bridges have limited range) and you'll defeat their jump ahead strategy.
Most skilled pvpers want to fight a gang that outnumbers or has at least equal numbers as them cos they have the piloting skill and knowledge to do it and enjoy it. So they specifically hang around areas so a good sized gang can be formed. The type of gangs that are looking for solo ganks can do what you say but those looking for a mid sized gang battle need to stick around for the opposing gang to form up.
But with this nerf the formed gang need only jump to and camp choke points to totally r*pe the roaming gang with capitals and a bubbled gate.
Most alliances have JB chains linking various systems its not hard and its a lot quicker to use them to cut off a gang than to go through the gates.
I do not know how you cannot see how this nerf will reduce the amount and quality of pvp in eve unless its because you do not want to cos it will make your ratting and home systems so much safer.
Funnily enough yo,not all pvp takes place in 0.0,seeing as on 15% of the playing population live is 0.0.
Most of nano does as they do not tank gate guns to well tbh.
Wtf ths **** has the got to do with anything? And it cant be anyworse than minmatar online.
Oh post with your main scrub. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:45:00 -
[2794]
This change is allowing Caldari-specialized characters to actually have better PVP options. I think it's a good change. Caldari ships will actually fair better in PVP.
I'm looking forward to the changes.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:46:00 -
[2795]
whats going to be real scary is now people wont spend billions of isk on inplants or subcaps, we are all going to be in carriers now since we will have so much isk and that way CCP doesn't have to fix the lag beacuse you will last longer in a carrier so less reimbursement claims....
sweet jesus i get their plan now
|
Mik kyo
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:46:00 -
[2796]
Poasting after happy hydra members
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:47:00 -
[2797]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Actually, no. In this case Nozh is quite correct. A speed tank should NOT mean evading all hits.
It SHOULD mean many hits, and softening the impact of those things that do hit you.
Unfortunately, things are currently weighted a bit too heavily toward your (apparent) point of view on the matter.
If it did not evade all or 99% of hits all ppl would need to do is blob up.
Can't you see that doing this will make all webbing ships not worth flying as all you will need is a load of f1-f8 spam ships instead of nuets, webber, RR and logistics?.
|
SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:47:00 -
[2798]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 17:51:05 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 17:49:07 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 17:47:47 I suppose one option is to treat MWD speeds like overheating.. if you exceed the structural limit of the ship it slowly begins to cause damage to the armor and hull. Shields would remain in tact perhaps.. haven't thought it all the way through but.. that might be a worthwhile resolution.
So.. sure you can go insane speeds.. but at 15,000m/s your ship essentially disintegrates around you.. so you could use it for a quick in and out.. but if you fit poorly, you would be so damaged you would be an easier target if caught.
Skilled nano pilots would need to balance their speed with the survivability of their structure. More advanced fittings would need to be throught out rather than simply as many nanofiber and overdrives as you can fit. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:51:00 -
[2799]
Originally by: Mik kyo Poasting after happy hydra members
You can take your immature hate comments to CAOD. I don't mind your silly snipes, but they get old fast. It's why having a discussion with you and yours is a waste of time.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Loka xDD
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:51:00 -
[2800]
Why Anakin in Star Wars can speed tank missiles and gunnerys and we cant?
='(
ohh.. failure =P Blobs will rule the world =(
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:51:00 -
[2801]
hydra lol
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:53:00 -
[2802]
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Motaka
Funnily enough yo,not all pvp takes place in 0.0,seeing as on 15% of the playing population live is 0.0.
Most of nano does as they do not tank gate guns to well tbh.
Wtf ths **** has the got to do with anything?
If only 15% of the player population lives in 0.0 and nano is virtually a 0.0 entity then the pvpers that work in low sec or empire should not give a toss as it does not effect them. But most 0.0 pvpers do not want the nerf as it is removing a very enjoyable form of pvp.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:54:00 -
[2803]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Motaka
Funnily enough yo,not all pvp takes place in 0.0,seeing as on 15% of the playing population live is 0.0.
Most of nano does as they do not tank gate guns to well tbh.
Wtf ths **** has the got to do with anything?
If only 15% of the player population lives in 0.0 and nano is virtually a 0.0 entity then the pvpers that work in low sec or empire should not give a toss as it does not effect them. But most 0.0 pvpers do not want the nerf as it is removing a very enjoyable form of pvp.
Caldari FW Militia noobs, that's what you're forgetting.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:57:00 -
[2804]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 17:59:26
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Ranger 1
Actually, no. In this case Nozh is quite correct. A speed tank should NOT mean evading all hits.
It SHOULD mean evading many hits, and softening the impact of those things that do hit you.
Unfortunately, things are currently weighted a bit too heavily toward your (apparent) point of view on the matter.
If it did not evade all or 99% of hits all ppl would need to do is blob up.
Can't you see that doing this will make all webbing ships not worth flying as all you will need is a load of f1-f8 spam ships instead of nuets, webber, RR and logistics?.
I think you grabbed my quote a moment before I edited in a word to make more sense. My apologies for my poor timing on that one.
What I see is that speed tanking is not preforming as CCP intended, and is somewhat out of balance vs other styles of combat. I'll be right there with you if it is completely removed as a viable form of game play, but I'm going to wait and see what the play testing reveals before I make any decisions.
I do not have any doubt that SOME balancing is needed. And I think the general ideas behind the proposed balance changes do indeed make sense in theory. But I keep my verdict open as to the implementation until things have progressed a bit. It would be very easy to go to far, and I'm not for that either.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 17:59:00 -
[2805]
To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Akyr
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:01:00 -
[2806]
*gg*
five hours talking about 'Speed Rebalancing' is a wasted time. the simplest soloution is often the best. (see missiles - no missile can pass far the 249km range even with max skills)
fix only the max speed for each ship class ! everybody can fit what ever he want. i think, this soloution may fix the speed problem at once.
my 2ct
fly safe
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:01:00 -
[2807]
One note of consideration, do people realize that these changes nerf the majority of high isk items dropped from domination spawns.
Domi overdrive - worthless Domi MWD (any size) - worthless domi web - worth less domi disruptor - worth less domi scram - worth more
Afaik these are all the faction mods domi spawns drop that are wroth a damn... pls correct me if I am wrong.
so in effect anyone who rats in minnie 0.0 space, alliance controlled or NPC, your space has just been nerfed.
Comments?
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:01:00 -
[2808]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 17:59:26
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Ranger 1
Actually, no. In this case Nozh is quite correct. A speed tank should NOT mean evading all hits.
It SHOULD mean evading many hits, and softening the impact of those things that do hit you.
Unfortunately, things are currently weighted a bit too heavily toward your (apparent) point of view on the matter.
If it did not evade all or 99% of hits all ppl would need to do is blob up.
Can't you see that doing this will make all webbing ships not worth flying as all you will need is a load of f1-f8 spam ships instead of nuets, webber, RR and logistics?.
I think you grabbed my quote a moment before I edited in a word to make more sense. My apologies for my poor timing on that one.
What I see is that speed tanking is not preforming as CCP intended, and is somewhat out of balance vs other styles of combat. I'll be right there with you if it is completely removed as a viable form of game play, but I'm going to wait and see what the play testing reveals before I make any decisions.
I do not have any doubt that SOME balancing is needed. And I think the general ideas behind the proposed balance changes do indeed make sense in theory. But I keep my verdict open as to the implementation until things have progressed a bit. It would be very easy to go to far, and I'm not for that either.
And tbh i have no issue with them nerfing to hell the 10-30kms fitting types but the lesser 5kms should not be touched.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:03:00 -
[2809]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 18:04:26
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:07:00 -
[2810]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
Be honest the raven pilot is screwed no matter what gang is attacking him unless its a small noobship gang.
Id like to see faster fighters as well so i can pull them away from the carrier and pop or steal them when he docks or jumps :).
|
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:09:00 -
[2811]
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Well then, can we expect to NOT see you and your whining bunch of friends in EVE ever again? That would be nice, really!
|
kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:16:00 -
[2812]
Nozh your a ***git.
You suck You suck you suck! If i sucked as much as you I would just jump off a bridge or something. I hope that idea has come into your head, as soon as your gone mabye we can get back to having fun! Someone PM when he does that and I will start to play again. Until Nozh hurry up plz, just jump I don't want to waste to many GTC's! |
XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:17:00 -
[2813]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 18:04:26
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
I'm just relying on what others said in the sisi testing thread.
What's the point in testing it, testing is to find bugs not to decide whether its a good idea or not, they've obviously already decided it is a good idea.
And yes actually neuts will screw up a small nano gang, Wargod and I have met many chinese farmers with them fitted and they hurt our vagas a lot Also using ECM drones on a tackling scout is hella annoying too
Anyway, me and my whiney friends are purely arguing for something we believe is good for the game, small skirmish PVP, skills that we have trained for years, isk we have spent, and fun we have had.
Many of the Anti-nerf people have already expressed that yes, maybe speed needed to be looked at (in the way of bringing polys inline with nanos) but the way this has been handled is somewhat reprehensible and leaves me with less respect for the management at CCP than before.
Eve was supposed to be a "cold, dark place" (can't remember who from CCP said it, but they did) and now it is turning into a laggy, mission running hell, rewarding the masses instead of those who excel in different aspects of eve. What is there to aim for now? Who can put up and run the most pos? Who can field the most caps?
The biggest skill now will be in recruitment and PR --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Space Flyer
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:18:00 -
[2814]
Originally by: ChuckNorris CRO Don't touch anything please, leave like it is !
You already make a mess by boosting Caldari race and you want more with boosting missiles, nerfing nano/speed webbs and etc.
Losers/NOOBS and jelous lazy people around map screaming to nerf minority of guys who can buy snakes for billions and fly fast.
You need to work for something in this game, you cant just kill ratts and scream when someone catch you in the belt because you are poor and lazy to learn few things, you already have big help in cloaking and logofski/ no agro from npc, what more do you need from CCP !?
CCP turning this game to Caldari-Online wich is disaster for all other races, are we talking about some balance!!!!
CCP made great balance with Caldari race and what happend, some starter with few month of skills sit in Drake/passive tanking and tank (Sleipnir/vaga/2 intys-max skills) for such a long time that you could not belive- is that a good balance!?
But what the f... i want!?
Turn off all other races and lets everybody change to CALDARI, we will then have pure balance !
But you will need to change the name of this game to CALDARI-ONLINE ! :P
THIS GAME WILL BE PURE DISASTER !
Lot of mm online games collapse because of wrong development team and guys who do not know too much, tbh this game going in that way.
Good Luck.
Sorry on my bad english:)
Quoting this 100%, go CCP... I hope you'll get a lot of money from farmers/carebears/noobs accounts to justify all this...
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Pristin
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:22:00 -
[2815]
For the love of god these changes cannot be applied to live.
Why not just remove Minmatar from the game? I imagine there would be a lot less grief that way.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:28:00 -
[2816]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 18:04:26
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
I'm just relying on what others said in the sisi testing thread.
What's the point in testing it, testing is to find bugs not to decide whether its a good idea or not, they've obviously already decided it is a good idea.
And yes actually neuts will screw up a small nano gang, Wargod and I have met many chinese farmers with them fitted and they hurt our vagas a lot Also using ECM drones on a tackling scout is hella annoying too
Anyway, me and my whiney friends are purely arguing for something we believe is good for the game, small skirmish PVP, skills that we have trained for years, isk we have spent, and fun we have had.
Many of the Anti-nerf people have already expressed that yes, maybe speed needed to be looked at (in the way of bringing polys inline with nanos) but the way this has been handled is somewhat reprehensible and leaves me with less respect for the management at CCP than before.
Eve was supposed to be a "cold, dark place" (can't remember who from CCP said it, but they did) and now it is turning into a laggy, mission running hell, rewarding the masses instead of those who excel in different aspects of eve. What is there to aim for now? Who can put up and run the most pos? Who can field the most caps?
The biggest skill now will be in recruitment and PR
Actually, it's far more reaching than that. Stability, i.e. the opposite of huge changes, is what makes this game reputable.
In the same manner the Dollar floats based on reputation, it's value fluctuates.
What we see now at this point in time, is that EvE is no longer stable. Without stability, those who invest and think in long term scale have no guarantees. What attracted me to EvE was that factor, that it was the most hard core game out there. You take that away, and quite honestly, you take away the reason to play.
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BruceLee CRO
Caldari Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:30:00 -
[2817]
Edited by: BruceLee CRO on 28/07/2008 18:32:09 THIS IS THE END OF SOLO ROAMING and SMALL GANG WARFARE
thx ccp for making this game to:
f.u.c.k off nano roaming gangs online
f.u.c.k off guerilla warfare gangs
welcome to gate camping online
welcome to statin camping online
now i can secure 100% of my space online
blue online (belive or not but lots of smaller alliances will need to blue someone if they wanna get fair fight cos of lack of numbers)
we got more numbers online
if you dont have numbers go to empire or stay docked online
i dont wanna train speed skills and i wanna fly drakes that kills everything online
i am 2 month old caldari pilot and i can easly kill 70mil sp vaga char online
i dont wanna invest money for speed but i will invest money for my mission shield tanking raven online and gonna whine against nanofgts
and much more and much more online just pick name...
if you really dont knowwhat to change in eve, convo me and il fix it for ya cos you (gm's) dont have any experience in eve combat (as we see it from your ideas)
stuff to change and really fast
-moon mining... -local into delayed mode... -macro isk farmers... -logofski... -lag -pos warfare...
just pick one and fix that.leave this alone
for other ******s who dont understand that you can kill nano gangs with bses with neuts rapiers/hugins and other stuff convo meh and i will explain you how or atleast train for nano ships and do the same
i really dont understand why cos of like 50 ppl in eve that flies around with hg snake sets you nerfing everything
if you do that then you can also nerf mission runners cos i dont see difference why someone WHO INVEST 10 BIL IN SHIP (NANO ONE) that risk that ship in pvp and that dies at the end always is so big problem but some fgtry mission runner that invest in officer mods for his raven can solo tank hardest lvl4 mission or similar.so i demand nerf tanks also so you can with your 10bil isk cn raven tank only max 2 mission BS or 5 cruisers.
you ****ing up all ppl that invest billions in pvp and that takes risk cos you can easly die in 10bil isk vaga (go to providence,aaa space or mm space...)
and ******s who invest billions of isk in NO RISK mission farming ISK SELLING raven dont have nerf ever.
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kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:30:00 -
[2818]
Anybody have any friends in the CIA? I heard Nozh was a member of Al Quada, give them a call and tell them about this douche! |
Space Flyer
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:34:00 -
[2819]
Edited by: Space Flyer on 28/07/2008 18:34:45
Originally by: kOZMIC sNIPER Anybody have any friends in the CIA? I heard Nozh was a member of Al Quada, give them a call and tell them about this douche!
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kOZMIC sNIPER
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:36:00 -
[2820]
After they question him and beat the shit out of for two years then mabye we will be past this nag thing anyway. Worth a shoot. Atleast we can see of footage on YOUTUBE and laugh our asses off. |
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Warrior Goddess
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:38:00 -
[2821]
Edited by: Warrior Goddess on 28/07/2008 18:51:59 So question, why is the Assult frigate the same speed as it's bigger counterpart, the Heavy Assult Ship? accourding to you breif explainations it should be slower. sure it's an assult ship but it is "heavier"
just my 2 cents,
Warrior Goddess
edit- AHAH oops so thats the Stealth bomber thats is as fast as a cruiser, may bad. my eyes are playing tricks on me again. i guess this will work. i'll so enjoy the new fetures (assult ship lover)
-________________________________________________________________-
Crap I wasted a penny on my thoughts this time, can i get a refund?
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:40:00 -
[2822]
Originally by: Ranger 1
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
From my testing so far, the max you can get a HAC up to is a bit over 2k/s or about 2.5k/s maxed out with HG snake set.
Fighters move between 2 and 2.5km/s. (This is before Drone nav skills, not sure if they affect fighters)
I was in an engagement last week flying a zealot with a speed of around 2.3km/s and there is no way it would be fast enough to outrun them.
Latest Video
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:41:00 -
[2823]
Originally by: Warrior Goddess Edited by: Warrior Goddess on 28/07/2008 18:39:14 So question, why is the Assult frigate the same speed as it's bigger counterpart, the Heavy Assult Ship? accourding to you breif explainations it should be slower. sure it's an assult ship but it is "heavier"
just my 2 cents,
Warrior Goddess
-________________________________________________________________-
Crap I wasted a penny on my thoughts this time, can i get a refund?
Assault ships need a serious boost, but that is another matter. This is about killing off the last viable form of 0.0 combat that doesn't involve getting the biggest blob.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:41:00 -
[2824]
Originally by: Oniko Sengir (This is before Drone nav skills, not sure if they affect fighters)
Thank heaven for small mircales, they don't.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:42:00 -
[2825]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:43:52 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.. but honestly you'll still be in your vaga after this change i'll wager.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Space Flyer
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:44:00 -
[2826]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
I think I just heard some belt rats screaming your name because they felt lonely... you should stop posting and give them a hug...
lol hydra...
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:44:00 -
[2827]
Nice reply. Thanks for coming out. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:46:00 -
[2828]
is dat sum hydra in dis thread
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Space Flyer
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:46:00 -
[2829]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Nice reply. Thanks for coming out.
You're welcome, but I'd like to point out that those rats are still screaming .
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:47:00 -
[2830]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
You don't get it, because you don't fly nanogangs. Nanoships are extremely flimsy, low DPS ships. They can go about 3.5-5kms generally, and only the insane ones go above 10kms. This is not about saving the insane ones. Nerf em. But if you take a 3.5kms nanoship and reduce it to 2.5kms, it is dead meat. It costs 200-350m and it is dead meat. Any Tier 2 BC will be better to fly. Blobs will always win, even if they are ******edly stupid, since all they have to do is fly ravens and drakes and lob missiles. Even monkeys could do that. The only defence that exists against missiles is speed for a HAC, and now that gets nerfed they lose all reason to exist.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:47:00 -
[2831]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 18:49:07
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Nice reply. Thanks for coming out.
What do you expect when the previous post or so to yours clearly says that even with a set of HG snakes that a nano ship cannot get over 2.5k, and if you do not understand what that means you a total noob.
And your preaching about 11k setups ffs, your welcome to nerfing those tbh.
Go rat a belt ffs.
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Damien Wind
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:47:00 -
[2832]
I've already replied to this topic showing my support for the overall speed rebalancing, however, my one thought:
MWDs will no longer be viable for PvP if they are cut off by scramblers. MWDs are not currently viable for any deadspace missions, or mission-running in general. MWDs, if changed according to the ideas tossed around in the devblog, will become unviable for almost everyone in every circumstance, except maybe 0.0 ratters.
Why even keep them in the game at that rate?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:53:00 -
[2833]
Personally, I would have prefered something much simpler that maintains the current choices to a large degree but also avoids the "ludicrous speed" issue : Linkage Short version, absolute top speed limits for ships, with compensations (agility, sigradius) for speeds that would otherwise go above that enforced top speed.
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:54:00 -
[2834]
No I do get it. Honestly I get why its awsome to go so fast almost nothing can touch you and I have lots of experience being on the receiving end of that kind of power. I know for example it can be countered with a domi loaded with neuts and some quick drones as long as I bring a huggin with me.
The problem is that 0.0 has become a space that is plagued with massive nano-gangs running amok with very little that can counter them and in many cases these gangs are the ones doing 'ludicrous speed'. I don't mind HACS doing 4000ms.. that seems reasonable to me. Its the 7000ms or so that seems a bit daft. Ships should not be able to outrun assault missiles when in range.. thats silly.
It will be interesting to see what your average vaga does after this patch. If they are easily webbed and killed well then i'm all for continuing to change things. For 300mill you should at least get something cool that doesn't die quickly.. but the way it is now, in MANY cases.. its broken and I think thats sort of universally accepted as true. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Zigg Omelo
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:55:00 -
[2835]
Originally by: Space Flyer Edited by: Space Flyer on 28/07/2008 18:32:00
Originally by: ChuckNorris CRO Don't touch anything please, leave like it is !
You already make a mess by boosting Caldari race and you want more with boosting missiles, nerfing nano/speed webbs and etc.
Losers/NOOBS and jelous lazy people around map screaming to nerf minority of guys who can buy snakes for billions and fly fast.
You need to work for something in this game, you cant just kill ratts and scream when someone catch you in the belt because you are poor and lazy to learn few things, you already have big help in cloaking and logofski/ no agro from npc, what more do you need from CCP !?
CCP turning this game to Caldari-Online wich is disaster for all other races, are we talking about some balance!!!!
CCP made great balance with Caldari race and what happend, some starter with few month of skills sit in Drake/passive tanking and tank (Sleipnir/vaga/2 intys-max skills) for such a long time that you could not belive- is that a good balance!?
But what the f... i want!?
Turn off all other races and lets everybody change to CALDARI, we will then have pure balance !
But you will need to change the name of this game to CALDARI-ONLINE ! :P
THIS GAME WILL BE PURE DISASTER !
Lot of mm online games collapse because of wrong development team and guys who do not know too much, tbh this game going in that way.
Good Luck.
Sorry on my bad english:)
Quoting this 100%, I understand the need of nerfing battleships going 10k/s or 15k/s hacs, it's perfecly understandable... but killing a whole ship class (t2 cruisers...) means removing a lot of aspects that made Eve this popular: player skills (being flexible on the battlefield, planning strategies, swapping gamestyle according to the situation, etc.) actually meaning something instead of a flat game where every player does the same things.
Unfortunatly with these changes that's what will happen, there isn't too much to discuss about it...
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:57:00 -
[2836]
Edited by: Euriti on 28/07/2008 18:57:07 or not :(
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Gael Itrus
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:58:00 -
[2837]
Please stop special casing weapons CCP. You are not improving combat.
This is like the nos-nerf, where you magically stop sucking cap when you achieve cap-parity with your enemy. How is that even remotely realistic?
Or your carrier nerf which we all know is still in the works. In a game where training times can be measured in years, perhaps you should be thinking of more creative solutions than "Oops, my bad -- you can't have that anymore."
New and better mods please. Stop special casing. You are seriously jeopardizing your game.
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:58:00 -
[2838]
You know what --
I was laying in my hammock last night pondering these proposed *as in, decided* changes and I had a better one that I would like to share with CCP.
Build inherit speed-limits into every ship class. Leave the option to exceed it. But if said speed is exceeded, the hull begins to take damage. *Stress on the hull at too great a speed* (Thank you Star Trek).
This way, if a ship goes faster than it was *intended*, so to speak, it takes damage. Build inherit limits into every ship class. And wala. You just solved the goddamn nano-issue without screwing the game completely.
K, thx.
That is all.
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:00:00 -
[2839]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 19:01:46 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 19:00:25 Hey I just said that 5 min ago (40 posts ago :P)
EDIT: And I suppose its probably been said about 20 times already in here somewhere. :D ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:02:00 -
[2840]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 19:04:57
Originally by: SomeHardLovin
The problem is that 0.0 has become a space that is plagued with massive nano-gangs running amok with very little that can counter them and in many cases these gangs are the ones doing 'ludicrous speed'.
0.0 was plagued with blobbers and so ppl who did not want to bring a blob to counter it and watch a frozen screen used speed and skill/team work to balance the problem.
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Ships should not be able to outrun assault missiles when in range.. thats silly.
Why not or all we will see are caldari ships fitted with hams ruling eve in stupid blobs.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:02:00 -
[2841]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:43:52 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.. but honestly you'll still be in your vaga after this change i'll wager.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
who are you and who is your daddy? Kaikia? You have no clue what you are talking about.
WHat you fail to understand is the ONLY SHIP WORTH FLYING NOW IS A VAGA, with falcons. Thats if for PVP and you can forget ganking ratters Solo now it will be impossible.
your a joke and your whiney friends who have gotten this to even be considered are a joke. Its hilarious that after 2 years of constant *****ing about how bad "we suck at PVP and nano is unbeatable" the whine card gets played at us...
you people are utter trash, right up with eh dev's that designed this
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Equinox Daedalus
Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:04:00 -
[2842]
CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close to the sun |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:11:00 -
[2843]
Woot! 110pages! We're at the carrier nerf thread's level! Record, here we COME! ----------------- Friends Forever |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:11:00 -
[2844]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:57:56 No I do get it. Honestly I get why its awsome to go so fast almost nothing can touch you and I have lots of experience being on the receiving end of that kind of power. I know for example it can be countered with a domi loaded with neuts and some quick drones as long as I bring a huggin with me.
The problem is that 0.0 has become a space that is plagued with massive nano-gangs running amok with very little that can counter them and in many cases these gangs are the ones doing 'ludicrous speed'. I don't mind HACS doing 4000ms.. that seems reasonable to me. Its the 7000ms or so that seems a bit daft. Ships should not be able to outrun assault missiles when in range.. thats silly.
It will be interesting to see what your average vaga does after this patch. If they are easily webbed and killed well then i'm all for continuing to change things. For 300mill you should at least get something cool that doesn't die quickly.. but the way it is now, in MANY cases.. its broken and I think thats sort of universally accepted as true.
EDIT: Actually thinking on this further.. Assault frigates are getting a bit of a boost. It would be interesting to engage small fleets of AFs in the same way HACs used to work. It would be a better, more exciting fight I think.
Well, 7kms means for practically all ships they can't hit you at all. But I would have no problem with it if the effective cap on all ships speeds were around 6-7kms, as long as the nanoships with current T2 fits would still be able to hit speeds up to 6kms after the changes. And hitting 7kms ships is not that hard, even if missiles won't be able to do it. But all weapon systems have pros and cons. Missiles will hit any ship that is orbiting close as long as its not going too fast. Guns will never hit an orbiting ceptor until he is webbed. I don't see why everything must be killable by every weapon.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:11:00 -
[2845]
Edited by: Oniko Sengir on 28/07/2008 19:13:28
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
(edit to actually contribute something) Any coordinated traditional gang is practically immune to a nanogang.
Latest Video
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:15:00 -
[2846]
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
Can't you take Nozh out for a spin on TQ and show him there are plenty of tactics that work vs nanogangs?
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:17:00 -
[2847]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 28/07/2008 19:18:29
Originally by: Oniko Sengir Edited by: Oniko Sengir on 28/07/2008 19:13:28
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
(edit to actually contribute something) Any coordinated traditional gang is practically immune to a nanogang.
I flew with ex BE dudes in the conflagration and they chewed through them pretty easily as well. What's the secret?
It takes skill to beat skill. Plain and simple. If you know what you are doing, nanogangs arent any kind of a threat at all.
But then again the only skill these carebears have trained is Whining Lvl V
Edited for trollage removal
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:19:00 -
[2848]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
Can't you take Nozh out for a spin on TQ and show him there are plenty of tactics that work vs nanogangs?
so many people have asked to do that
don't think he has responded to that
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:22:00 -
[2849]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
Can't you take Nozh out for a spin on TQ and show him there are plenty of tactics that work vs nanogangs?
so many people have asked to do that
don't think he has responded to that
I hereby offer my time and service to take out any GM on a roam. Nano-***s will die. Nuff said.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:24:00 -
[2850]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 28/07/2008 19:24:40
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
Can't you take Nozh out for a spin on TQ and show him there are plenty of tactics that work vs nanogangs?
so many people have asked to do that
don't think he has responded to that
?
Other nanos?
Huginn/rapiers?
....
Profit?
Whoa there.
Originally by: Kira Novia
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
Can't you take Nozh out for a spin on TQ and show him there are plenty of tactics that work vs nanogangs?
so many people have asked to do that
don't think he has responded to that
I hereby offer my time and service to take out any GM on a roam. Nano-***s will die. Nuff said.
No, they'll run away. And, you'll be forced to nano yourself. They dont care that you can kill a nano***, they care that you need more nano to do it. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:25:00 -
[2851]
How-To Fix Nano-Issue:
Leave It Be! <<<~~~~ Suggested.
Possible Fix That Everyone Can Live With: Build inherent speed-limits into ships. Allowed them to be exceeded but at a cost. For every 100MS that breaks that speed limit, the hull begins to take damage. 100MS Exceed = X Damage Every X Seconds (varies depending on ship [ie: command ship would take less damage than a battlecruiser]. And whatnot.
You do this, you counter nano to a sensible and realistic extent. And don't screw the game royally. THIS will lead to variation.
And FFS: LEAVE MWD'S AND WEBS ALONE DAMN YOU CCP!
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:25:00 -
[2852]
Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:27:00 -
[2853]
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
----------------- Friends Forever |
Han Renbai
Omerta Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 19:29:00 -
[2854]
Originally by: Ander Another new Dev listening to the loud carebears on forums who havent trained for hyenas/huginn/rapier or know how to fit web, and now wants to make a mark on the game.
These proposed changes will drive eve even more towards blobbing.
We'll be seeing big sac fleets, remote rep BS fleets and eagles now as the new flavor of the month PVP. Numbers will be everything, not skill-driven combat.
/signed
Counters for speed already exist, try using them.
By all means slow ships down a bit, but swing the nerf bat with finesse rather than taking the scatter gun approach you seem to be serious about. Scramblers that turn off MWD's? Ships with web bonuses that are well short of being effective? Sigh...
Who wants to fly a T2 frigate that is going to get wtfbbq'd by anything with light missiles? Or, omg, you going to fix defender missiles at last? No? Didn't think so.
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Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:29:00 -
[2855]
I do somewhat understand the speed nerfs although I think for the most part all you are doing is giving blobs more power. However:
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU THINKING WITH THE MWD NERF AND THE WEB NERF. You are completely ****ing up pvp. This is pure bullshit. You guys are ******s. WE ARE LEGI0N. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. WE DO NOT FORGET. EXPECT US. |
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:30:00 -
[2856]
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
yep, we became pretty dam good at it. We just need to skill up our Anti-Dread Tactics now
________________ God is my Wingman |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:33:00 -
[2857]
Originally by: Galvatr0n
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU THINKING WITH THE MWD NERF AND THE WEB NERF. You are completely ****ing up pvp. This is pure bullshit. You guys are ******s.
Quoted for speaking the ****ing truth about the worst mother****ing nerf-patch in EvE's history.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:34:00 -
[2858]
NGEmpyrean Age amirite
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:34:00 -
[2859]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
yep, we became pretty dam good at it. We just need to skill up our Anti-Dread Tactics now
But how? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:36:00 -
[2860]
Originally by: Haakelen NGEmpyrean Age amirite
ROFL
...
Latest Video
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Asume Nosami
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:38:00 -
[2861]
GG CCP. GG.
If this patch goes through, my subscription ends.
Nuff' said.
I've said everything I have to say.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:42:00 -
[2862]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 28/07/2008 19:42:38 Something needed to be done about the speed issue.
This is something.
QED. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Equinox Daedalus
Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:44:00 -
[2863]
if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close to the sun |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:45:00 -
[2864]
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
But how? More nanos and webs??? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:46:00 -
[2865]
Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Sol Mortis
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:52:00 -
[2866]
These changes are a terrible idea. This seriously messes up people's long-trained skills and hard-earned ships, rigs, modules, and implants. I am not happy that months of planning and training for nano setups has been erased on a whim. Rigs and implants that people have invested hundreds of millions into are going to crash in value faster than the American economy. I am a Caldari in Faction War, and because we were getting pwned by nano gangs, I started training for my own nano setups and rapiers/huginns. The people complaining about nano can do the same, or come up with a different solution such as remote repair, Nosferatu, and sniping setups. I was in plenty of Caldari fleets where we fit for long range and chased off the nanos, even if we couldn't kill them they couldn't kill us.
CCP, instead of ruining a great part of the game that many people have invested enormous time and isk into; why don't you just give us new tools with which to combat nano ships rather than ruin those ships. The warp scramble changes to affecting MWD, if taken alone, are one good example of this idea. Perhaps web missiles or light web drones could be another alternative. Just don't ruin our ships, give us better equipment instead.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:56:00 -
[2867]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
But how? More nanos and webs???
FFS, like he said, mail him in-game. No reason to give specifics here. (Except maybe the devs could use a few pointers...) And no of course it's not with more nanos, that's the point we're talking about here, this is about a conventional fleet.
Latest Video
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:58:00 -
[2868]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 20:15:14
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Its kinda freaky as his kills seem to be a lot of recons and hacs on the first 2 pages although its mixed after that. And his losses are a mix of BS, BC, hacs and recons (A sigil and bestower too i tink we all gots a few of dem in our stats lol).
237 kills 37 losses so hardly ground shaking figures but not exactly sucky as far as k/d goes considering how he feels about the evils unkillable unbeatable nano peeps.
I would have thought 237 losses and 37 kills would have been closer the way you go on about nano ships tbh budski.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:08:00 -
[2869]
This is some Mickey Mouse BS. You went from making the MWD the most used module to making it basically useless. If you wanted more counters against nano, then add more counters - don't nerf tons of ships. Just make missiles a tad better, keep the arazu-change and boost some tracking.
Honestly Nozh, stop defending this sinking ship of an idea, it's full of holes and you need to get back to the drawing board.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:09:00 -
[2870]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 20:01:33
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Its kinda freaky as his kills seem to be a lot of recons and hacs on the first 2 pages although its mixed after that. And his losses are a mix of BS, BC, hacs and recons (A sigil and bestower too i tink we all gots a few of dem in our stats lol).
237 kills 37 losses so hardly ground shaking figures but not exactly sucky as far as k/d goes considering how he feels about the evils unkillable unbeatable nano peeps.
I would have thought 237 losses and 37 kills would have been closer the way he goes on about nano ships tbh.
iknowwhoyouare!
Also, yeah but I see vagas and stuff on there with him, so it looks like he could be legit about not knowing how to kill them without nanos of his own.
Latest Video
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:14:00 -
[2871]
Originally by: Oniko Sengir
iknowwhoyouare!
Tells meee coz iz forgotz
Originally by: Oniko Sengir
Also, yeah but I see vagas and stuff on there with him, so it looks like he could be legit about not knowing how to kill them without nanos of his own.
I suppose but they hardly show a dude who has been royaly bent over by nano's and a lack of pvp education is hardly a valid reason for a nerf.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:17:00 -
[2872]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 18:04:26
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
I'm just relying on what others said in the sisi testing thread.
What's the point in testing it, testing is to find bugs not to decide whether its a good idea or not, they've obviously already decided it is a good idea.
And yes actually neuts will screw up a small nano gang, Wargod and I have met many chinese farmers with them fitted and they hurt our vagas a lot Also using ECM drones on a tackling scout is hella annoying too
Anyway, me and my whiney friends are purely arguing for something we believe is good for the game, small skirmish PVP, skills that we have trained for years, isk we have spent, and fun we have had.
Many of the Anti-nerf people have already expressed that yes, maybe speed needed to be looked at (in the way of bringing polys inline with nanos) but the way this has been handled is somewhat reprehensible and leaves me with less respect for the management at CCP than before.
Eve was supposed to be a "cold, dark place" (can't remember who from CCP said it, but they did) and now it is turning into a laggy, mission running hell, rewarding the masses instead of those who excel in different aspects of eve. What is there to aim for now? Who can put up and run the most pos? Who can field the most caps?
The biggest skill now will be in recruitment and PR
I'm patiently waiting until I can get home and run some proper tests. If these changes to too far the other direction, you will have my support in this.
I don't think many truly want to see speed tanking become infeasable... a little trickier to do correctly yes, but not infeasable.
I personally want to have to sweat a bit when speed tanking (cause if your sweating, your having fun eh?). I think we are all agreed on chopping the upper end of the scale way back. The splitting of hairs will come when deciding what an "average" speed tank pilot should have to deal with.
I can see that to fix this correctly several things may need to be adjusted at once. Whether the correct things have been chosen to adjust, and if they have been adjusted to the correct degree, will take some time and tweaks to figure out.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:30:00 -
[2873]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 20:35:26 CCP, I want you to test these things:
1. 5 guys in Vagabond, Ishtar, Falcon, Rapier, Huginn go through a 0.0 gatecamp with a bubble and 20:ish ships. Pre-patch they can get into 0.0 with a very small chance of dying. Why is this important? It is important because it gives a small gang the chance of getting into hostile space and doing guerrilla warfare.
Questions:
a) Is the intention that a defending gang of 20 should always win in this scenario? Eg. if they have one or two arazu, should that be the end of anyone trying to get through? Eg. place sensor-boosted arazu's on 0 at the gate and activate mod = dead nano ships = end of guerrilla?
b) If that is the intention, then please provide me how you mean that guerrilla warfare is still possible? Eg. small gang can engage a bigger gang or at least get away from it? How is it, do you say that this tactic would still be viable? From my tests the Arazu is the new ship that you HAVE to have in a gang. Seems imbalanced.
c) If that is not the intention, then at the very least provide nano ships with a module to stop one scram from disabling your MWD.
2. Have 4 nanoships engage 4 drakes on a gate, using the current transversal & speed mechanics. When we tried it, it resulted in four very dead nanoships because at no time did the speed provide enough protection versus the missiles for the four nano ships to do anything against the 4 drakes. With four cerberuses it was even worse. And if we removed one drake and replaced it with an Arazu, it was extremely one-sided. To us it seemed as though you now want very predictable warfare. Whoever puts the most missile ships on a gate, wins. How is this a more tactical option?
Having a falcon coming along with the nano-gang didn't work either, as soon as the falcon uncloaked we managed to jam the Arazu, but the drakes loaded F.O.F's which made the falcon go popsicle, and with the setups we had to use to gain any speed there was simply not enough damaged caused by our nano-ships to bust the camp. In one trial we managed to kill the Arazu (losing the falcon), but then we had to get away. If it had been a 20 man gatecamp there would be a 90-95% chance of all of us dying. Making big gatecamps the be-all-end-all of controlling space and stopping small incursions.
You may wish to evade this empiric evidence all you want, I am warning you. The causality of this change actually goes against what you intend to accomplish. You wish the warfare to become less predictible. More tactical, and keep the option of guerrilla warfare.
It is my conclusion that the patch in it's current form very much goes against that intent, and instead breaks the option for smaller groups to have a viable way of at the very least get away from "the blob".
----
Here are some of the ideas from the test-group:
a) Make so that all 0.0-gates you decloak at a 30km distance from the gate. This way it will be more difficult to plug the gates and leaves room for smaller gangs to get through still.
b) Add a module that "protects" the MWD. From getting Arazu'd (eg. stops the anti-MWD effect).
c) Keep nano the way it is, but make it so while an MWD is activated you are unable to target anything. Provide all interceptors+assault ships with a bonus that evades this change.
d) Change the webs, but make the rapier & arazu instead of a target painting bonus have a web amount bonus. Add this bonus to the Bellicose as well, making the bellicose slightly less useless
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:35:00 -
[2874]
Go to the assembly hall and cast your vote either FOR or AGAINST this patch.
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Cloue
Gallente Stripping Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:43:00 -
[2875]
The game will lose alot of customers if this patch goes through FACT ---------------------------------------------- 8 out of 10 Owners who Expressed a Preference said Their Cats Preferred Gallente Stripping Agency. |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:44:00 -
[2876]
Originally by: Eternal Error Go to the assembly hall and cast your vote either FOR or AGAINST this patch.
Done & done.
Voted casted AGAINST this patch.
That is all.
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Mavi Gioia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:45:00 -
[2877]
Edited by: Mavi Gioia on 28/07/2008 20:45:28
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ranger 1
Some of the more extreme abuses of the system will be curbed, average speed of a nano gang may drop slightly
You know the 4km vaga fit with 2x Aux thruster II, 2x OD and HG snakes? You know how fast this goes on TQ atm?
7,3km/s. It goes 4km/s after the patch. This is not a slight drop, this is a MASSIVE drop that will eliminate speedtanking.
That would be one of the more extreme cases I mentioned now wouldn't it? As I said, the average speed of your typical nano gang won't be impacted nearly that much.
And no, the only people that will stop speed tanking are the people that never really knew how to do it well... but had enough isk to invest in equipment that they were able to get great results regardless. Those folks will simply turn to whatever the new flavor of the month is.
Are you stupid? If a T2 rig/HG snakes setup goes 4k, what do you think us regular shmoes will hit? 2.5k? 2k? Also known as oh look you just got ****d by heavy missiles speed.
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Eric Lendall
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:49:00 -
[2878]
@ Devs: These changes are really bad. I don't like any of them. I don't think that they would make EVE a better game, and I think the changes cause more problems than they eliminate. Also, the web change/nerf is completely unnecessary. Webs are not an overpowered module unless they're fitted on a Huggin/Rapier. Don't bend to the carebear whiners who can't figure out which end of the gun is supposed to point at the enemy, and then get owned in PVP and cry "it's cuz he was nano'd!" when in reality, they were beaten because they are ignorant, and haven't had enough PVP experience to know how to fit and fly their ships properly and went up against someone who simply had more skillpoints, a better ship (many times more expensive, fitted for pvp, etc.) and knew the game mechanics better than them.
In short, it would be a BAD COURSE OF ACTION TO IMPLEMENT THESE PROPOSED CHANGES.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:50:00 -
[2879]
I really hate this MWD nerf + Warp Scram boost. You're giving Scrams two functions which seems too powerful in my opinion. Put scripts on Scrams for something like range boost or point boost (I don't know exactly, that's to be worked out), but don't give them the option to turn off MWDs as well. If you plan on doing that then make a new module to shut off MWDs.
And seriously, +500% speed boost across the board for MWDs is ridiculous. MWDs were fine the way they are. If you need to improve ABs then change them, don't fix something that's not already broken.
I haven't had time to test how bad the speed nerf is but I'll be sure to comment on that as well when I get the chance.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:54:00 -
[2880]
Originally by: Xyleya Straight from SiSi...
Vagabond:
10MN MWD II (Acc. Control LvL 5) 3x OD II
No implants, hardwirings or rigs = 3500m/sec.
And yes... 3x OD II is the best you can do with the now changed Nanofiber's or Polycarbons.
What's it hit with the same but 2x poly?
That could be... almost reasonable. If Disruptors didn't kill your mwd that is.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:57:00 -
[2881]
I'll start out by refering to what happened during the Delve campaign, where PL was running around Delve for a few months with nano-gangs.
What would usually happen was that a PL gang would sit cloaked on or near a gate, and when someone approached alone('ish, dependent on PL gang strength), they'd attack. Now, I have no qualms about people dying when they don't move carefully in a battlezone (loosing ships when you do something stupid a great teacher), but the difficulty of countering this strategy made us decide most of the time to not even try.
Generally, when a gate was camped in this way, the comment on TS when someone wanted to try to kill a few of them was: "Don't bother, They can't be caught!". This was coming from some of BoB's most experienced fleet commanders and leaders.....
Let's take that again...... "Don't bother, They can't be caught!"
Now, why did they evaluate things this way. A combination of factors, but the main determining factor is this: A 4km/s (or more) ship can disengage and be out of warp scrambing range in less than 5 seconds. It doesn't matter whether it gets webbed or scrambled 3 seconds in because the inertia will carry it out of scramble/web range and it'll be able to either go to full speed again, or warp out. It doesn't even take a skilled pilot to do this. When you see the hostile list on the overview start to grow, just align/MWD/warp.... There is NO way to catch you, since the incoming ships will be visible on the overview for several seconds (final part of their warp) before they can start locking.
This 'feature' violates one of the rules that was quoted when CCP nerfed WCS. I can't remember the exact wording, but is was something like "Committing to a fight should mean that you can not extract from it without risk!", but this is exactly what happens today. Committing to a fight doesn't carry a risk for nano-ships that is comparable to other ships.
Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the amount of misrepresentation of the realities of speed gameplay coming from PL and others now in this thread.... During some of the quiet moments in Delve we were chatting with a few of them in local and they then freely admitted that they thought the speed mechanics were broken too, but would keep using them until they were changed. This is a fair enough attitude, and mirrors the attitude among BoB members on titans before they were nerfed (Bowling etc.). What is possible within game mechanics and is not declared an exploit is ok to use.
Now, on the proposed 'counters' against nano-gangs..... I really don't give a lot for any of the ones you all suggest, except for another nano-gang. That main fact we discovered during that period is that any nano-gangs (even quite unskilled ones), can extract from a situation faster than any countermeasures can be brought into play.
We DID try all the different suggested 'counters', but found that in reality they simply didn't work. The nano-gang could at least 9 times out of 10 extract without any risk, simply because they could be outside scrambler/webber range before people could even lock them.
The only counter we found DID work was lagging out the system (50-100 ships warping in staggered, etc.) and hoping some of our tacklers would be less lagged than the ships we were hunting. This only rarely worked, but was better than any other tactic. Lag is not a good basis for game mechanics anyway.....
[Continued below]
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:57:00 -
[2882]
Edited by: Tzrailasa on 28/07/2008 21:03:30 [Continued from above]
So, the main argument for restricting speed in the game is that where other ships run a reasonable risk when attacking, nano-ships run a much lower (by several orders IMO) risk of dying. This means that the famous K/D ratio for nano-ships is NOT in line with other types of ship fits, and is exactly why it needs to be modified. If it isn't done, then we loose variety in the game. As things are developing, everyone + dog is training their speed skills. More and more people fly nano-ships (because of the lower K/D ratio, and because they really are the only thing that can counter a nano-ship), so what'll we end up with? Only nano-gangs and blobs? I don't think that is want we want, and I definitely don't thing CCP wants it either.
Now, some people has argued that without the option to nano up ships, small ships combat is dead. This is patently not true. Even with jump-bridges, titans etc., it is still relatively easy to roam around and kill stuff, even in non-nano'ed gangs. Sure, you die once in a while, but I don't think anyone really expect to be safe on a roam..... Unless you're nano'ed....
Another very important factor in other types of roaming gangs de-facto disappearing these days is the fact that if you meet a nano-gang of similar size, you're most likely toast. Huginns and Rapiers are of no realistic use either. If you have enough of them, the nano-gang will simply avoid you, and you can't force the engagement yourself. They are also of little relative use against any other type of opponents. To even suggest that they should be a requirement to fight nano'ed ships is also pretty ridiculous. Nowhere else in EVE is a single very specialised ship class from a single race required to combat a very widely used tactic! Neither should it be so here!
So, to conclude.... I think CCP is definitely on track here. They've correctly defined the problem, and has set out some suggested changes that looks ok. Whether the changes they suggest are the exact right ones, I'll not be the one to judge as I don't have their data collection to go from, but I definitely know that something needs to be done to keep EVE combat varied. Having one type of fit more or less outcompete all other types of roaming setups simply isn't good for the future of the game.
Personally, I'd set up some guidelines for how fast individual ship classes should be able to go when optimally T2 fitted (not counting in boosters and pirate implants, but including gang bonus and T1 rigs), and then adjust the ships/modules from that guideline.
A guideline I think would work is the following: "No ship of the three main classes (Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship) should optimally T2 fitted be able to be faster than the fastest ship from the immediately smaller class equipped with only a T2 MWD!" So if for example the speed of the fastest interceptor with a T2 MWD is 4000 m/s, a fully T2 speed fitted Vagabond should only be able to reach 3999 m/s. Other guidelines could work equally well....
This would in my experience leave speed tactics and speed tanking intact, but it would of.c. no longer be the near riskless tactic it is today.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:01:00 -
[2883]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 20:35:26 CCP, I want you to test these things:
1. 5 guys in Vagabond, Ishtar, Falcon, Rapier, Huginn go through a 0.0 gatecamp with a bubble and 20:ish ships. Pre-patch they can get into 0.0 with a very small chance of dying. Why is this important? It is important because it gives a small gang the chance of getting into hostile space and doing guerrilla warfare.
Questions:
a) Is the intention that a defending gang of 20 should always win in this scenario? Eg. if they have one or two arazu, should that be the end of anyone trying to get through? Eg. place sensor-boosted arazu's on 0 at the gate and activate mod = dead nano ships = end of guerrilla?
b) If that is the intention, then please provide me how you mean that guerrilla warfare is still possible? Eg. small gang can engage a bigger gang or at least get away from it? How is it, do you say that this tactic would still be viable? From my tests the Arazu is the new ship that you HAVE to have in a gang. Seems imbalanced.
c) If that is not the intention, then at the very least provide nano ships with a module to stop one scram from disabling your MWD.
Ask yourself the following questions:
1) Use a scout
a) Why should a small gang be able to get past an entrenched defensive gang?
b) Guerilla warfare is still possible. Use a scout in a fast interceptor or a covops and use him to avoid any camps.
c) I agree here.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:03:00 -
[2884]
Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 21:05:59 No matter what happens with HACs and Nanos, the whole 'Scram kills MWD' and ridiculously weak webs need to be gone.
BTW, it's obvious CCP and every one of you pro-nerf whining mother****ers have no interest at all in keeping Guerilla and asymmetric warfare alive in Eve.
'Sure, we're removing the only effective way to do it, but Guerilla warfare must still be viable!'.
Get out.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:05:00 -
[2885]
Edited by: Korinn on 28/07/2008 21:06:29 CCP - Turning a spaceship MMO into a Submarine MMO in one fell swoop. Congratulations, all you need to add now is a PING button
@Tzrailasa - Those were not nanogangs you were fighting
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:06:00 -
[2886]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:07:29 1. Nothing is stopping any ship nano or not from warping off if as you say:
"When you see the hostile list on the overview start to grow, just align/MWD/warp.... There is NO way to catch you, since the incoming ships will be visible on the overview for several seconds (final part of their warp) before they can start locking".
This is about ship alignment and pilot skill and awareness and has nothing to do with nano fits as any ship can warp off when a blob comes up on their overview.
Ive done the same thing in sniper BS, falcons tbh pretty much every ship i have flown.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:06:00 -
[2887]
Originally by: Tzrailasa Now, some people has argued that without the option to nano up ships, small ships combat is dead. This is patently not true. Even with jump-bridges, titans etc., it is still relatively easy to roam around and kill stuff, even in non-nano'ed gangs. Sure, you die once in a while, but I don't think anyone really expect to be safe on a roam..... Unless you're nano'ed....
Ok, what options are there?
Please be specific how people can roam in smaller gangs that are not nanoed and who could still kill more than a single ratter and not be blobbed to hell and back?
Otherwise I will just have to see this as a member of a 'big blobs are better alliance' who is trying to get the one playstyle nerfed that doesn't get shot to bits by their blobs.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:08:00 -
[2888]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean 1. Nothing is stopping any ship nano or not from warping off if as you say:
"When you see the hostile list on the overview start to grow, just align/MWD/warp.... There is NO way to catch you, since the incoming ships will be visible on the overview for several seconds (final part of their warp) before they can start locking".
This is about ship alignment and pilot skill and awareness and has nothing to do with nano fits as any ship can warp off when a blob comes up on their overview.
What he said. If you're aligned and using your scanner, you can never get caught.
Also, if we follow this line of reasoning, recons cloaking and being able to warp cloaked also need to be removed right? I dont see the principal difference between the two playstyles.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:10:00 -
[2889]
Originally by: Internet Knight
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 20:35:26 CCP, I want you to test these things:
1. 5 guys in Vagabond, Ishtar, Falcon, Rapier, Huginn go through a 0.0 gatecamp with a bubble and 20:ish ships. Pre-patch they can get into 0.0 with a very small chance of dying. Why is this important? It is important because it gives a small gang the chance of getting into hostile space and doing guerrilla warfare.
Questions:
a) Is the intention that a defending gang of 20 should always win in this scenario? Eg. if they have one or two arazu, should that be the end of anyone trying to get through? Eg. place sensor-boosted arazu's on 0 at the gate and activate mod = dead nano ships = end of guerrilla?
b) If that is the intention, then please provide me how you mean that guerrilla warfare is still possible? Eg. small gang can engage a bigger gang or at least get away from it? How is it, do you say that this tactic would still be viable? From my tests the Arazu is the new ship that you HAVE to have in a gang. Seems imbalanced.
c) If that is not the intention, then at the very least provide nano ships with a module to stop one scram from disabling your MWD.
Ask yourself the following questions:
1) Use a scout
a) Why should a small gang be able to get past an entrenched defensive gang?
b) Guerilla warfare is still possible. Use a scout in a fast interceptor or a covops and use him to avoid any camps.
c) I agree here.
You don't get it. Its not about scouts. Its about getting fights. If a gang can jump through the gate, MWD off and then engage we got a fight. If they can't jump through without MWDing off, you dont get a fight because they wont jump in at all. They will either go the other way, or logoff if cornered. Woohoo. Now that is so much fun.
This change will reduce the number of fights, will increase blobs as the only viable fighting style and will lead to more frustrating tactics like logging off to avoid battle.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:12:00 -
[2890]
Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 28/07/2008 16:43:23 ran some tests with a stopwatch... with complete removal of mass reduction bonus from mods and 1,590,000 mass increase on the Vagabond:
6-7 seconds to reach 5800m/s on Tranq 16-17 seconds to reach 3200m/sec on Sisi
Add 10 second mwd reactivation delay for taste
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c36/MyHovercraft/bleedingeyes.png
Tbh.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:13:00 -
[2891]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:15:30
Originally by: Malachon Draco
You don't get it. Its not about scouts. Its about getting fights. If a gang can jump through the gate, MWD off and then engage we got a fight.
If they can't jump through without MWDing off, you dont get a fight because they wont jump in at all. They will either go the other way, or logoff if cornered. Woohoo. Now that is so much fun.
This change will reduce the number of fights, will increase blobs as the only viable fighting style and will lead to more frustrating tactics like logging off to avoid battle.
What he said.
This nerf supports mindless and skilless blobbing instead of encouraging ppl to improve their piloting skills and use and fit the many and a fore mentioned well documented counters in ships modules and tactics.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:13:00 -
[2892]
Originally by: Tzrailasa Nowhere else in EVE is a single very specialised ship class from a single race required to combat a very widely used tactic! Neither should it be so here!
You forget that MOST recons can still combat a nano ship. A Curse works pretty damn well against most nanos. So does a Falcon. How can you claim only one race's specialized ship can combat against a certain play style when you know that isn't true. Sure, a Rapier/Huginn is more effective but it is not the only ship.
Also I think CCP was stupid when they said "Committing to a fight should mean that you can not extract from it without risk!" because I bring up the argument that:
Does this mean if a ship is not pointed, it should still not be allowed to run away? Should we nerf the Falcons that sit 100+km away jamming their targets while aligned?
So if we do want to follow CCP word for word then running from any kind of fight shouldn't be allowed, it doesn't matter if you're pointed or not.
I agree in some rare cases ships are going too fast, but overall I don't believe the majority are exploited this (CCP needs to give us some data). Also, of course nanos are going to hit hard and run, they're using guerilla tactics. Why do you think it's so hard for traditional military forces in the real world to combat against guerilla warfare (ie Iraq).
No, you're not wrong, but I don't agree 100% with what you're saying as it's showing how a small percentage exploits game mechanics whereas a lot of these new changes effect most of the community (web nerf, warp scram change, etc.)
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:19:00 -
[2893]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa Now, some people has argued that without the option to nano up ships, small ships combat is dead. This is patently not true. Even with jump-bridges, titans etc., it is still relatively easy to roam around and kill stuff, even in non-nano'ed gangs. Sure, you die once in a while, but I don't think anyone really expect to be safe on a roam..... Unless you're nano'ed....
Ok, what options are there?
Please be specific how people can roam in smaller gangs that are not nanoed and who could still kill more than a single ratter and not be blobbed to hell and back?
Try a small non-nano gang yourself (and pray you don't run into a nano-gang). Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe. Unless of.c. you make mistakes, but then you deserve to die. The difference is right there. Even if a nano-gang makes mistakes, they'll most likely still survive because they can disengage faster than the opponent can lock you.
Originally by: Malachon Draco Otherwise I will just have to see this as a member of a 'big blobs are better alliance' who is trying to get the one playstyle nerfed that doesn't get shot to bits by their blobs.
It would be nice if you countered my arguments instead of just dismissing them because of my corp/alliance ticker.
However, your form of argumentation is pretty typical for the pro-nano group You don't really have good arguments for what you're claiming, so you use name-calling and misrepresentation instead. Not a useful way of arguing....
My post is based on the experiences of the best (yes, I think we are...) PvP alliance in the game against one of the better small groups (PL). I've myself participated quite actively in the mentioned part of the Delve campaign.
Arguments, not baseless accusations, will serve you far better than what you wrote above.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:20:00 -
[2894]
I have three main concerns with this patch atm.
1) The 2 point "deathscram" is overpowered. Either script it to serve dual functions, lower the bonuses that the Arazu/Lach/Keres get to scram range, or reduce the power of heat on it.
2) The nanonerf appears to be too severe, word on the streets is that the Vaga's pulling 3-3.5km/s with normal fittings (rigs, ODs/nanos, max skills).
3) In almost all cases, a tier 2 BC is superior to a HAC. The former is insurable, has 3 rig slots versus two on the HAC, and generally more firepower at its disposal; in contrast, the HACs' only real selling points are that they tend to be faster, and have T2 resists. If this goes through, I think it would be a good idea to look at buffing the HACs a bit more to make them worth the extra cost one would incur on the market.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:20:00 -
[2895]
Edited by: Commander Tigre on 28/07/2008 21:23:06
Originally by: Internet Knight
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 20:35:26 CCP, I want you to test these things:
1. 5 guys in Vagabond, Ishtar, Falcon, Rapier, Huginn go through a 0.0 gatecamp with a bubble and 20:ish ships. Pre-patch they can get into 0.0 with a very small chance of dying. Why is this important? It is important because it gives a small gang the chance of getting into hostile space and doing guerrilla warfare.
Questions:
a) Is the intention that a defending gang of 20 should always win in this scenario? Eg. if they have one or two arazu, should that be the end of anyone trying to get through? Eg. place sensor-boosted arazu's on 0 at the gate and activate mod = dead nano ships = end of guerrilla?
b) If that is the intention, then please provide me how you mean that guerrilla warfare is still possible? Eg. small gang can engage a bigger gang or at least get away from it? How is it, do you say that this tactic would still be viable? From my tests the Arazu is the new ship that you HAVE to have in a gang. Seems imbalanced.
c) If that is not the intention, then at the very least provide nano ships with a module to stop one scram from disabling your MWD.
Ask yourself the following questions:
1) Use a scout
a) Why should a small gang be able to get past an entrenched defensive gang?
There are several scenarios where a small gang should get away from a gate camp. Also, if your idea holds true, then holding pinching points on 0.0 -> low/high sec gates means 0.0 is even more static as far as sovereignty and guerrilla warfare.
Quote:
b) Guerilla warfare is still possible. Use a scout in a fast interceptor or a covops and use him to avoid any camps.
Just because you know where the camps are does not allow you passage from point a to c, which is needed in a small roaming gangs. If you need to get to point a -> c and point b was the only way through but point b was camped... then there is no chance to get there according to your logic.
Quote:
c) I agree here.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:23:00 -
[2896]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa Now, some people has argued that without the option to nano up ships, small ships combat is dead. This is patently not true. Even with jump-bridges, titans etc., it is still relatively easy to roam around and kill stuff, even in non-nano'ed gangs. Sure, you die once in a while, but I don't think anyone really expect to be safe on a roam..... Unless you're nano'ed....
Ok, what options are there?
Please be specific how people can roam in smaller gangs that are not nanoed and who could still kill more than a single ratter and not be blobbed to hell and back?
Try a small non-nano gang yourself (and pray you don't run into a nano-gang). Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe. Unless of.c. you make mistakes, but then you deserve to die. The difference is right there. Even if a nano-gang makes mistakes, they'll most likely still survive because they can disengage faster than the opponent can lock you.
Originally by: Malachon Draco Otherwise I will just have to see this as a member of a 'big blobs are better alliance' who is trying to get the one playstyle nerfed that doesn't get shot to bits by their blobs.
It would be nice if you countered my arguments instead of just dismissing them because of my corp/alliance ticker.
However, your form of argumentation is pretty typical for the pro-nano group You don't really have good arguments for what you're claiming, so you use name-calling and misrepresentation instead. Not a useful way of arguing....
My post is based on the experiences of the best (yes, I think we are...) PvP alliance in the game against one of the better small groups (PL). I've myself participated quite actively in the mentioned part of the Delve campaign.
Arguments, not baseless accusations, will serve you far better than what you wrote above.
You're ignoring the point I made because you dont have an answer I see. How do non-nano gangs run around enemy space without getting blobbed?
And secondly, how is the nano fleets ability to warp out any different from any fleet that is aligned to warp out? Or from any recon gang? The only real advantage I see for nanoships is the ability to bypass smaller gatecamps and thus avoid being blobbed to hell and actually get into a system to get a fighting chance. Any non-nano gang will get ****d by a gatecamp in enemy space. Thus preventing fights because noone would jump in under those circumstances.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:23:00 -
[2897]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:25:08
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Try a small non-nano gang yourself (and pray you don't run into a nano-gang). Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.
Unless of.c. you make mistakes, but then you deserve to die. The difference is right there. Even if a nano-gang makes mistakes, they'll most likely still survive because they can disengage faster than the opponent can lock you.
In other words roaming has been reduced by this nerf to ganking solo ratting ships and running away from gangs that have equal or greater numbers even if they fly crapply fitted ships.
Instead of having the ability to take on larger fleets while taking a few losses but getting a few kills as well.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:24:00 -
[2898]
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Tzrailasa Nowhere else in EVE is a single very specialised ship class from a single race required to combat a very widely used tactic! Neither should it be so here!
You forget that MOST recons can still combat a nano ship. A Curse works pretty damn well against most nanos. So does a Falcon. How can you claim only one race's specialized ship can combat against a certain play style when you know that isn't true. Sure, a Rapier/Huginn is more effective but it is not the only ship.
No, I didn't. You however did not catch the main argument.
The nano-ships are already gone before the above mentioned ships can lock and engage. That is the whole point.
I see no reason why nano-fitting a ships should mean you can disengage from fights without risk when other types of ships can't. It takes away variety because it makes one tactic (nano'ing) so much less risky than other tactics, thus hurting variety in the game (because everyone wants to fly nano..).
Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:24:00 -
[2899]
Originally by: Kira Novia Edited by: Kira Novia on 28/07/2008 19:26:58 How-To Fix Nano-Issue:
Leave It Be! <<<~~~~ Suggested.
Possible Fix That Everyone Can Live With: Build inherent speed-limits into ships. Allowed them to be exceeded but at a cost. For every 100MS that breaks that speed limit, the hull begins to take damage. 100MS Exceed = X Damage Every X Seconds (varies depending on ship [ie: command ship would take less damage than a battlecruiser]. And whatnot.
You do this, you counter nano to a sensible and realistic extent. And don't screw the game royally. THIS will lead to variation.
And FFS: LEAVE MWD'S AND WEBS ALONE DAMN YOU CCP!
EDIT:
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
No, they'll run away. And, you'll be forced to nano yourself. They dont care that you can kill a nano***, they care that you need more nano to do it.
Dare to believe it can be done w/o nano. A Curse + Astarte = Dead Nano ***.
This is a ****ing brilliant idea, though i wouldnt say that the ship is damaged, rather the MWD, meaning it takes overheat damage, this would stop people from perma running their MWD around say... A MISSILE SHIP. I cant see anyone having objectionsto this, as it adds a really nice aspect to PvP
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DogTyred
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:33:00 -
[2900]
/me mourns the loss of small gang warfare. It's hard enough for small gangs to work in hostile space as it is.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:33:00 -
[2901]
I still don't understand why there is not a hint of desire to analyze EVE database for PvP encounters, check how many people using nanos, who's getting killed, how much isk is destroyed, etc
If I was one of the devs I would have done it even if it was to satisfy my own private curiousity.
It certainly would answer a lot of questions and dispell many silly myths
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:34:00 -
[2902]
Originally by: Malachon Draco You're ignoring the point I made because you dont have an answer I see. How do non-nano gangs run around enemy space without getting blobbed?
If you didn't understand "Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.", there really isn't much I can do to explain it to you.....
We've done so plenty of times with non-nano HAC's (and smaller), and in the rare instance we get blobbed, we fight it out or die. The only thing that is really dangerous to us is..... wait for it.... a NANO-GANG!
It takes most alliances TIME to rustle up a response force, not to mention using jump bridges is not as fast as you make it look. The raiding force has the initiative, and can usually slip out if they don't overstay their welcome. If you opponent is alert and good enough to quickly gather a response force, and deploying correctly by predicting what your raiding force will do, he DESERVES to kill you. He'll never catch a nano-gang with current rules however.
This should not be a one-sided game where the attacker, just because he uses nano-ships, is not catchable by the defender.
What IS it about dying that you nano-pilots have such a problem with.... It's a natural thing in a game like this....
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Dendo Ordoss
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:34:00 -
[2903]
Originally by: Tzrailasa A guideline I think would work is the following: "No ship of the three main classes (Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship) should optimally T2 fitted be able to be faster than the fastest ship from the immediately smaller class equipped with only a T2 MWD!" So if for example the speed of the fastest interceptor with a T2 MWD is 4000 m/s, a fully T2 speed fitted Vagabond should only be able to reach 3999 m/s. Other guidelines could work equally well....
This would in my experience leave speed tactics and speed tanking intact, but it would of.c. no longer be the near riskless tactic it is today.
This is actually a much better idea then what the devs have come up with now, and it would still make you able to get fast ships if(and only if) your willing to spend a great deal of isk on them, but tbh i would have preferd if the cruiser speed would be 3k fully t2 fitted with a bit better speed for the vaga. the way it is on sisi now its a damn pain to even try to use a battleship to get in range of anything cause they are so slow they feel like a carrier to fly.
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:34:00 -
[2904]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
You do realize this is exactly what you're proposing?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:38:00 -
[2905]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:39:20
Originally by: Tzrailasa
If you didn't understand "Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.", there really isn't much I can do to explain it to you.....
I love this LOL your response to what this nerf will do and how roaming a gang will deal with another larger gang is they will need to....wait for it...LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET INTO A FIGHT????.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:40:00 -
[2906]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco You're ignoring the point I made because you dont have an answer I see. How do non-nano gangs run around enemy space without getting blobbed?
If you didn't understand "Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.", there really isn't much I can do to explain it to you.....
We've done so plenty of times with non-nano HAC's (and smaller), and in the rare instance we get blobbed, we fight it out or die. The only thing that is really dangerous to us is..... wait for it.... a NANO-GANG!
It takes most alliances TIME to rustle up a response force, not to mention using jump bridges is not as fast as you make it look. The raiding force has the initiative, and can usually slip out if they don't overstay their welcome. If you opponent is alert and good enough to quickly gather a response force, and deploying correctly by predicting what your raiding force will do, he DESERVES to kill you. He'll never catch a nano-gang with current rules however.
This should not be a one-sided game where the attacker, just because he uses nano-ships, is not catchable by the defender.
What IS it about dying that you nano-pilots have such a problem with.... It's a natural thing in a game like this....
Bullshit. If you have 15 guys, and the other guy has 20 guys on a gate waiting for you, if you jump in he can warp 40 more guys in and take you out. If you jump in with a nanogang, you can make it through and get a real fight. I think you got a bit rusty in those big blobs, you obviously don't know what kind of gangs get hotdropped with MS, titans and big defence gangs these days.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:40:00 -
[2907]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 28/07/2008 21:38:05
Originally by: Tzrailasa
If you didn't understand "Proper scouting and not loitering in the same system for more than a few minutes will most of the time see you perfectly safe.", there really isn't much I can do to explain it to you.....
I love this LOL your response to what this nerf will do is that roaming gangs is they will need to....wait for it...LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET INTO A FIGHT????.
lol I agree. This whole thing of "nanos leaving before another force has time to get there and lock" can be applied to any roaming gang with good intel.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:40:00 -
[2908]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:41:00 -
[2909]
Originally by: Mr Rive
Originally by: Tzrailasa Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
You do realize this is exactly what you're proposing?/quote] 'Variety' is not having nano-ships being the only viable small-gang type..... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:43:00 -
[2910]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
You still haven't really explained why nanos makes you MAGNITUDES safer over other fits.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:44:00 -
[2911]
Edited by: Korinn on 28/07/2008 21:43:57
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Mr Rive
Originally by: Tzrailasa Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
You do realize this is exactly what you're proposing?
'Variety' is not having nano-ships being the only viable small-gang type.....
So you're saying nanoing is the only viable way to run a small gang, and yet want to nerf it into the ground? Sounds like you want to remove small-gang pvp to me eh
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Zia Lola
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:46:00 -
[2912]
CCP here is a suggestion to avoid all these replys and ideas. Make a Blog where players can only answer by yes/no (radio button!!) to the speed nerf. Give it a month time and see the output
My answer will be NO!!! any way not like it is done right now.
Thank you for your understanding
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:47:00 -
[2913]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Bullshit. If you have 15 guys, and the other guy has 20 guys on a gate waiting for you, if you jump in he can warp 40 more guys in and take you out. If you jump in with a nanogang, you can make it through and get a real fight.
If your concept of a 'real fight' is that 15 people should be able to fight 60 in a system and come out ahead, just because they fit 'The Sword of a Thousind Truths', there is something wrong with your sense of perception.
Originally by: Malachon Draco I think you got a bit rusty in those big blobs, you obviously don't know what kind of gangs get hotdropped with MS, titans and big defence gangs these days.
Ahh, another insult.... You really are persistent on that strategy. It was better veiled this time though.....
Why shouldn't people be able to defend their space? Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:48:00 -
[2914]
Originally by: Zia Lola CCP here is a suggestion to avoid all these replys and ideas. Make a Blog where players can only answer by yes/no (radio button!!) to the speed nerf. Give it a month time and see the output
My answer will be NO!!! any way not like it is done right now.
Thank you for your understanding
CCP can't do that. That would be too efficient and would be listening to their subscriber base.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:50:00 -
[2915]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
If your concept of a 'real fight' is that 15 people should be able to fight 60 in a system and come out ahead, just because they fit 'The Sword of a Thousind Truths', there is something wrong with your sense of perception.
If you jump 15 into 40, some of that 15 will invariably die (even with nanos); but then you have a proper fight on your hands which benefits both sides. If the likelihood of ANY of you being able to survive the jumpin is much lower, there's no point and no-one will get a fight. Sounds like an excellent time will be had by all, the nanoers will **** off and log out, and the space defenders can go back to station spinning
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:51:00 -
[2916]
Originally by: Korinn
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Mr Rive
Originally by: Tzrailasa Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
You do realize this is exactly what you're proposing?
'Variety' is not having nano-ships being the only viable small-gang type.....
So you're saying nanoing is the only viable way to run a small gang, and yet want to nerf it into the ground? Sounds like you want to remove small-gang pvp to me eh
Nice try at deflecting, but doesn't work.
Nano-gangs are becoming the only viable type, not because the other types doesn't work, but because all other types carry much greater risk, and looses out if encountering nano-gangs.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:51:00 -
[2917]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
To paraphrase Mr. Samuel L. Jackson, "Answers M*********, do you have them?". All I see from you is bullshit and innuendo about supposed godlike abilities that nanoing gives your ship, but you don't explain what actually makes a nanoship better at warping out than any other ship. If it is about getting out, any gang is pretty much equal to a nanogang. Logging off is easy, cloaking is easy, jumping around safespots until aggro is gone is easy. Nanogangs are better at ONE thing. Getting to a position where they can engage instead of completely run away.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:54:00 -
[2918]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Bullshit. If you have 15 guys, and the other guy has 20 guys on a gate waiting for you, if you jump in he can warp 40 more guys in and take you out. If you jump in with a nanogang, you can make it through and get a real fight.
If your concept of a 'real fight' is that 15 people should be able to fight 60 in a system and come out ahead, just because they fit 'The Sword of a Thousind Truths', there is something wrong with your sense of perception.
Originally by: Malachon Draco I think you got a bit rusty in those big blobs, you obviously don't know what kind of gangs get hotdropped with MS, titans and big defence gangs these days.
Ahh, another insult.... You really are persistent on that strategy. It was better veiled this time though.....
Why shouldn't people be able to defend their space? Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
People are entitled to defending. I relish a good fight with a 60 man gang with just 20-30 of us. I also relish massacring them if they are poorly fit and poorly led.
Nanogangs allow for massacring noobs that outnumber them, true. But the same was true for sniper BS gangs engaging noobs. You were in BoB when you fought me in ASCN, you should know that. But the difference? Snipergangs can get blobbed, nanogangs can move more easily.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 21:54:00 -
[2919]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Every ship can warp away from a fight if they are aligned and pay attention. That is not exclusive to nanogangs. Jeez, are you really that noobish?
Ahh, I see you're back at the standard arguments for the pro-nano group. Insults.....
Anyway, no matter how many times you call people noobs or throw other insults, the basic fact that most people know, and CCP too, is that flying a nano-ship makes you magnitudes more safe than other ship fits. This for balance reasons should not be so, this is why it needs a nerf, and is plainly why CCP is thinking so.
To paraphrase Mr. Samuel L. Jackson, "Answers M*********, do you have them?". All I see from you is bullshit and innuendo about supposed godlike abilities that nanoing gives your ship, but you don't explain what actually makes a nanoship better at warping out than any other ship. If it is about getting out, any gang is pretty much equal to a nanogang. Logging off is easy, cloaking is easy, jumping around safespots until aggro is gone is easy. Nanogangs are better at ONE thing. Getting to a position where they can engage instead of completely run away.
^ this.
I still haven't seen a strong argument as to why nanos are so incredibly overpowered.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:03:00 -
[2920]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco ....All I see from you is bullshit and innuendo...
Your perfect argumentation skills at work again I see.
Please use a civil tone, and maybe try to read my post on the previous page? You know the one where I laid out the REAL INGAME experience of our alliance against PL in Delve....
All your name-calling and misrepresentations about the supposed vulnerability of nano-gangs fall flat on their face when taken ingame as most people fighting against nano-gangs will testify......
I read it. You said that PL could align and warp so fast that it was no point in engaging. I don't see why you should be the primary authority on fighting small gangs of PvPers. I bet the likes of CVA got a lot more nanogangs roaming their space. You could see it with BRUCE. When we first engaged em they sucked at fighting nanoers. But you could see em learn step by step. I also said that any gang worth its salt can align and warp out as long as you pay attention. Nanos dont warp faster. So what is the difference? Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:05:00 -
[2921]
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: Tzrailasa Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
I chose this post to clarify again the main difference.
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Oh, and on the 'let players vote' entries...... A benevolent dictatorship (CCP) is always better than a bunch of special-interest groups throwing insults and demonising their opposition.....
Sorry to say, but bed is calling. Have to get to work early tomorrow.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:07:00 -
[2922]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco ....All I see from you is bullshit and innuendo...
Your perfect argumentation skills at work again I see.
Please use a civil tone, and maybe try to read my post on the previous page? You know the one where I laid out the REAL INGAME experience of our alliance against PL in Delve....
All your name-calling and misrepresentations about the supposed vulnerability of nano-gangs fall flat on their face when taken ingame as most people fighting against nano-gangs will testify......
I read it. You said that PL could align and warp so fast that it was no point in engaging. I don't see why you should be the primary authority on fighting small gangs of PvPers. I bet the likes of CVA got a lot more nanogangs roaming their space. You could see it with BRUCE. When we first engaged em they sucked at fighting nanoers. But you could see em learn step by step. I also said that any gang worth its salt can align and warp out as long as you pay attention. Nanos dont warp faster. So what is the difference? Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
BE do it all the time and they fly ravens.
And i can assure you aside from wilds CNR efforts the standard BE raven fit aint nano.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:07:00 -
[2923]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: Tzrailasa Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
I chose this post to clarify again the main difference.
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Oh, and on the 'let players vote' entries...... A benevolent dictatorship (CCP) is always better than a bunch of special-interest groups throwing insults and demonising their opposition.....
Sorry to say, but bed is calling. Have to get to work early tomorrow.
A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:07:00 -
[2924]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Example?
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:08:00 -
[2925]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
The point, which you're conveniently forgetting, is that nano's can get out WITHOUT being aligned. A small press of that MWD button and you're out of warp scrambling range before your enemies can get you locked. You can then align and warp out.....
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:09:00 -
[2926]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
The point, which you're conveniently forgetting, is that nano's can get out WITHOUT being aligned. A small press of that MWD button and you're out of warp scrambling range before your enemies can get you locked. You can then align and warp out.....
What nanos are you flying? My Ishtar and Sacrilege (All T2, T1 rigs, no implants, accel 4) were never fast enough for that trick, and they certainly won't be even CLOSE now.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:09:00 -
[2927]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: Tzrailasa Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
I chose this post to clarify again the main difference.
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
That is THE imbalance that needs to be rectified, and which I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of.
Oh, and on the 'let players vote' entries...... A benevolent dictatorship (CCP) is always better than a bunch of special-interest groups throwing insults and demonising their opposition.....
Sorry to say, but bed is calling. Have to get to work early tomorrow.
A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
I agree, it's risk vs. reward. You pay all that isk to have a ship that'll give you an advantage. Where is the fun in making everyone equal? Why bother having SP at all if we're just going to nerf everyone to an even playing field? If I wanted that I'd go play some FPS.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:10:00 -
[2928]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes.
Only if the ppl they are flying against suck or its a 1 mistake insta pop for any nano ship that makes a mistake in combat against any sized gang.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
RuneTday
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:10:00 -
[2929]
Notice that most of the anti nano comments are from the same place, BOB. Yes nano gangs run rings around the 300 max caps, but what about the fighters from the caps. BOB intentionally overloads the system so nobody has any skill, just the biggest fleet will have enough sheer numbers somebody can shoot. In the real world hit and run tactics have always had a high level of success. Maybe CCP should add a maxi limit of ships from any allinace into a system to 30 ships, that would bring balance. Consider that CCP. If you need to nerf do it to the extreme, 10k+ people, get rid of the snakes and make polies cheaper but only 15% adjustment. Very, very few nano gangs are anywhere near the 10K speed. I am trying to get my Rapier over 3kms with out the poly or snakes... cost too much for my budget. The game has a multitude of differences. Get rid of the very top of the speed, leave the bulk were they are and can the scram and web changes. Minmatar, recon pilot.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:11:00 -
[2930]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 28/07/2008 22:12:46
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco Any gang who wants to disengage fast can do so, it does not require nanos.
The point, which you're conveniently forgetting, is that nano's can get out WITHOUT being aligned. A small press of that MWD button and you're out of warp scrambling range before your enemies can get you locked. You can then align and warp out.....
A small press of that cloak button... blah blah blah. It's all the same thing. So we should completely get rid of MWD because people are able to get out of range? Or should we just have infinite range warp scrams?
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:11:00 -
[2931]
Originally by: Malachon Draco A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
A properly fitted non-nano HAC also costs at least 150m.... not really a valid argument...... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:12:00 -
[2932]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
A properly fitted non-nano HAC also costs at least 150m.... not really a valid argument......
Why would you fly a non-nano HAC when you could use a Tier 2 BC?
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:12:00 -
[2933]
Edited by: Commander Tigre on 28/07/2008 22:15:37
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: Tzrailasa Why should nano-gangs be immune to people defending?
Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
I chose this post to clarify again the main difference.
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
I must argue that a nano gang PAYS far more if they loose their ships. That is the balance that everyone is forgetting. IT COSTS MONEY to fit ships to get to certain standards. It is true that some people have far to much money and they spend it buying really really nice stuff. Then people b**** when they cannot catch the 15km/s ceptor. No kidding, that ship cost over 2 billion to make. Don't whine because a 50 mill T2 fitted ship cant do anything against it.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:13:00 -
[2934]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Tzrailasa Nowhere else in EVE is a single very specialised ship class from a single race required to combat a very widely used tactic! Neither should it be so here!
You forget that MOST recons can still combat a nano ship. A Curse works pretty damn well against most nanos. So does a Falcon. How can you claim only one race's specialized ship can combat against a certain play style when you know that isn't true. Sure, a Rapier/Huginn is more effective but it is not the only ship.
No, I didn't. You however did not catch the main argument.
The nano-ships are already gone before the above mentioned ships can lock and engage. That is the whole point.
I see no reason why nano-fitting a ships should mean you can disengage from fights without risk when other types of ships can't. It takes away variety because it makes one tactic (nano'ing) so much less risky than other tactics, thus hurting variety in the game (because everyone wants to fly nano..).
Taking away variety is NEVER a good idea.
I wasn't with PL at the time you're speaking of. But I do know that what you're describing has nothing to do with nanos. Warping out as an enemy gang warps in is not what a nano-gang is good at. Using a Zealot as example, since it's what I fly, a standard setup will warp at 7.5 seconds, a nano setup will warp 2 seconds faster at 5.5 or if you have the MWD running, it will take a much longer time than a normal ship to get into warp.
Latest Video
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:15:00 -
[2935]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Malachon Draco A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
A properly fitted non-nano HAC also costs at least 150m.... not really a valid argument......
Why would you fly a non-nano HAC when you could use a Tier 2 BC?
Exactly.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:33:00 -
[2936]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Tzrailasa
A nano-gang can escape almost unscathed even when they make (many) mistakes. A non-nano gang will pay for it.
If you, like BOB does a lot. Fly with 200 people, then of course you will be more sluggish and not have an as easy option to get the hell out of dodge.
But when you fly with tops 8 people all the time, you have to be mobile to survive. Removing that mobility doesn't solve "the problem", it just creates another.
But if those 8 people don't pick nano-ships then? Then what? Well, of course they can bring half falcons and jam the living crap out of a bigger gang. While using 4 damage ships to take their targets out. Maybe this is what's going to happen then for those who fly in smaller groups. Tons of falcons instead. Guess what you will want to nerf next?
/signed
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:34:00 -
[2937]
Originally by: Inflexible
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Inflexible Did you just say that non-nano HAC is useless?
I sure did. There's about three or four exceptions (four if you count alternate fitting strategies of the same ship), but one of those is a feeble exploit at best.
Don't you think that fact there is ONLY one useful way to do things (fit ships in this case) is quite wrong?
This game is about putting specializations together to make a mash and take it against another. You would not shield tank a abiddon(sp?) or Hyperion would you? This is the same thing. Every ship can be fit a multitude of ways but only certain fits work well, or ever great.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
John Quicksilver
Caldari The Caldari Confederation Power Of 3
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:37:00 -
[2938]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Inflexible
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Inflexible Did you just say that non-nano HAC is useless?
I sure did. There's about three or four exceptions (four if you count alternate fitting strategies of the same ship), but one of those is a feeble exploit at best.
Don't you think that fact there is ONLY one useful way to do things (fit ships in this case) is quite wrong?
I certainly do. The fact that the only real way to fit HACs is nano is not the fault of the HACs or the nano pilots, it's the fault of the server, CCP, and blobbing. Treat the disease, not the symptom, etc.
Good sir i would argue that your generalisation about HACs sucking is wrong.
Sacrilige still pwns. Munin is a great atry boat from what i've seen Ishtar is still pwn raep Cerb is immense aswell
Eagle still seems to suck Zealot is fine aswell, great dps and range Deimos, not encountered one yet Vagabond, I have encountered several and discovered it is much easier to bring them down. Possibly a bit heavy handed with the speed nerf there.
As far as i can see your argument that HACs suck is either based on:
You fly vagabonds, boo-hoo, they're a bit shit now, the eagle has always been shit :P You're flying the other HACs wrong, fitting them wrong and puting them in the wrong situations.
/troll/flame/whatever.
My opinion I spose, nothing terribly important
Zombies in the house! ;) |
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:37:00 -
[2939]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 22:22:58 So those for this patch, do you agree with this:
1. A force that greatly outnumbers another should most oftenly win. 2. A force that greatly outnumbers another should most oftenly stop their target from leaving the battle. 3. A force that greatly outnumbers another should be able to lock down one gate.
Let's say we have twenty ships on a bottleneck gate:
2 x Arazu 2 x Huginn 2 x Falcon 6 x Drake 1 x Taranis 1 x Crow 1 x Curse 5 x Megathron
Scenario A is current Tranq-mechanics, Scenario B is Sisi-mechanics:
Our 5 man nano gang (Huginn, Rapier, Falcon, Ishtar, Vagabond) jumps into the bottleneck gate:
A) Small gang leader realizes that this fight is impossible to win, and tells his group to speed-align and warp off. B) Small gang leader realizes that this fight is impossible to win, and tells his group to speed-align and warp off. However, speed increase is too small to get out of range, MWD gets disabled, 3 of the "nano-ships" get destroyed.
Under no circumstance can the smaller gang engage the bigger, despite of how uber the current nano-mechanics are. The speed pretty much only guarantees an ability to get the hell out of dodge, an ability that with scenario B gets greatly reduced. Scenario A is still very risky for our 5 man gang. Most would probably not jump through, but at least if we handle things right we can. Scenario B is pretty much a sure-shot way of stopping the 5 man group. They either will have to take a longer route, die, or go do something different.
The thing is, "the blob" of today, with a well setup gang can still handle nano-gangs. Minmatar recons, ECM, etc. is required, but wasn't the argument that there should be more options for tactics? If there is only one way to evade large numbers in 0.0, nano, then the problem isn't nano. The problem is that there are too few options available for small gangs.
Naturally most "huge" alliances disagree. Because having this speed-option available means problems. While removing it is in favour of them. No longer can a 5 man gang get into those precious ratting-systems and kill unprepared ratters, no longer can the enemy evade a capital hot-drop simply by speeding away. This is of course perfect for a 1000 man alliance, protecting 0.0 is made easier.
I think the mentality from CCP here is a simple one, they've resolved the rock-paper bag-scissors game by (simplified) removing the paper bag. Naturally everyone who favours the rock is going to love this change, but not so much fun if you favour the scissors.
The mentality should instead be to add to this game, increase the number of options of waging war. Which the current solution says it does, but does NOT.
This is the one fatal flaw of the current SiSi-implementation. Saying that you want more tactical options is one thing, doing it is another. As it is with Sisi in it's current form we will see less tactics applied and more of the same old "numbers solves the problem".
How this type of patch can go through in a game previously reknowned for it's 'hard core'-sandbox mentality I don't know. But I guess in a way it reduces the load on the database when more and more people realize that 0.0 warfare is supposed to be clinging together in big groups and fighting until the nodes crash.
A step in the very wrong direction, in this EVE-players humble opinion.
But why should they fit like this when they can just all bring drakes? ITS NOT FAIR CCP YOU HAVE TO MAKE NANOS CRAP
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Inflexible
Shokei
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:38:00 -
[2940]
Originally by: Haakelen I certainly do. The fact that the only real way to fit HACs is nano is not the fault of the HACs or the nano pilots, it's the fault of the server, CCP, and blobbing. Treat the disease, not the symptom, etc.
Nanos are like blobs - some people really don't like to lose ships. Statement that nano counters blob is quite... not true.
Cancel insurance and blobs will slowly vanish because most blobers will rat instead. Nanos have nothing to do with it. They only grant stupid degree of invulnerability to tactical mistakes.
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:39:00 -
[2941]
"Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic."
lol ccp.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:40:00 -
[2942]
Originally by: Inflexible
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Inflexible Did you just say that non-nano HAC is useless?
I sure did. There's about three or four exceptions (four if you count alternate fitting strategies of the same ship), but one of those is a feeble exploit at best.
Don't you think that fact there is ONLY one useful way to do things (fit ships in this case) is quite wrong?
Yes, I do think this is VERY wrong. CCP needs to introduce more than one way to effectively engage larger fleets.
Latest Video
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:40:00 -
[2943]
Originally by: John Quicksilver
Good sir i would argue that your generalisation about HACs sucking is wrong.
Sacrilige still pwns. Munin is a great atry boat from what i've seen Ishtar is still pwn raep Cerb is immense aswell
Eagle still seems to suck Zealot is fine aswell, great dps and range Deimos, not encountered one yet Vagabond, I have encountered several and discovered it is much easier to bring them down. Possibly a bit heavy handed with the speed nerf there.
As far as i can see your argument that HACs suck is either based on:
You fly vagabonds, boo-hoo, they're a bit shit now, the eagle has always been shit :P You're flying the other HACs wrong, fitting them wrong and puting them in the wrong situations.
/troll/flame/whatever.
My opinion I spose, nothing terribly important
Munnin is a SNIPER BOAT. The eagle is the same way even though most people are not willing to fight/play that way. Each and every ship has a role but whether or not you see it or want to play it that way is another matter. HACs are great, expecially when you realize the role and fight that way.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
OMGNOTANOTHERALT
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:40:00 -
[2944]
A welcome change imo, but possibly a little extreme.
Certainly the MWD reactivation is a little dodgy.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:41:00 -
[2945]
Originally by: John Quicksilver Sacrilige still pwns.
No, the sacrilege still does moderate DPS for a missile boat (if fitted with T2 HAM launchers), and can tank gate guns. Otherwise a Harby is better, unless you have no laser skills.
Originally by: John Quicksilver Munin is a great atry boat from what i've seen
If your 'fun' is popping pods and frigs from 125km. Arty still has awful tracking.
Originally by: John Quicksilver Ishtar is still pwn raep
No, it's not. The Myrmidon will tank better (either passive shield oh jesus or armor), will have more EHP (either), and is insurable.
Originally by: John Quicksilver Cerb is immense aswell
If you like sniping with missiles. Read what I said up there about EHP, tank, and insurance.
Originally by: John Quicksilver Zealot is fine aswell, great dps and range
The Zealot, until they fix the Locus rig exploit, will have use. Hooray for Amarr Cruiser 5 on me alt.
Originally by: John Quicksilver Deimos, not encountered one yet
The Deimos is the quintessential example of what HACs will be after the nerf. That is why you don't see them very much, they're ****ing pointless.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
John Quicksilver
Caldari The Caldari Confederation Power Of 3
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:42:00 -
[2946]
Originally by: Commander Tigre
Originally by: John Quicksilver
Good sir i would argue that your generalisation about HACs sucking is wrong.
Sacrilige still pwns. Munin is a great atry boat from what i've seen Ishtar is still pwn raep Cerb is immense aswell
Eagle still seems to suck Zealot is fine aswell, great dps and range Deimos, not encountered one yet Vagabond, I have encountered several and discovered it is much easier to bring them down. Possibly a bit heavy handed with the speed nerf there.
As far as i can see your argument that HACs suck is either based on:
You fly vagabonds, boo-hoo, they're a bit shit now, the eagle has always been shit :P You're flying the other HACs wrong, fitting them wrong and puting them in the wrong situations.
/troll/flame/whatever.
My opinion I spose, nothing terribly important
Munnin is a SNIPER BOAT. The eagle is the same way even though most people are not willing to fight/play that way. Each and every ship has a role but whether or not you see it or want to play it that way is another matter. HACs are great, expecially when you realize the role and fight that way.
This man has the right idea. Thats pretty much what i was trying to say through the rambling
Zombies in the house! ;) |
Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:43:00 -
[2947]
For gods sake, stop it CCP.
I've been adapting for years now, maybe you should try just "adapting" the game instead of "moving the goal posts".
After 5 years, the game is fairly well balanced. The PvPers that use nano fits know the risks, and the people they are fighting against know how to beat them.
I can't help feeling that you are now catering to the "nouvel PvP n00bs" that are now actually fighting in FW against real players and not stupid NPC AI.
What you are currently proposing here will ONLY lead to more blobs and that will only lead to more lag. The more lag, the more "lag petitions" and the more ****ed off players you will have.
You have to really make 100% sure that small gang, hit and run tactics are still viable, if not, then you are going to seriously screw up just about the whole the of entire minmatar racial ships, their bonuses and their advantages (as small as they are).
So please think really hard about doing open heart surgery on a game that has been online for over 5 years.
So just tweak it instead and don't only listen to the "nouvel PvP n00bs" that can't handle the heat and should actually keep out of the EVE PvP kitchen. --
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:44:00 -
[2948]
What remains unanswered to me is a valid response to the problem that removing mobility creates. How can a smaller gang feasibly compete with a larger group without it?
I've suggested that falcons might be an answer. The problem with that is of course an enemy with access to a vast amount of allies is going to have more falcons. So with that problem, we come to the question again:
>> How can a smaller gang feasibly compete with a larger group without mobility?
It seems like those who argue in favour of the nano-nerf collectively believe that they shouldn't. And I can accept that, I understand the mentality of not wanting interferences in your style of game-play (your favoured 'rock' to the scissor to paraphraze myself). But the real people to ask it to is of course the developers.
What real options, means will smaller gangs have to interfere with larger groups (keeping in mind where combat takes place *)?
* Gates, asteroid belts, POS, stations, safespots, anomalies and hidden complexes.
I am not arguing in favour of having any combat mechanism being in complete favour of either side, but I want -realistic- options for a smaller gang to combat a larger one, not just through engaging a greater fleet, but for a small gang to get inside a bigger alliance's space and interfering with logistics etc. and having the ability to do so without dying 100% of the time as soon as a group twice their size comes in to stop them.
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:46:00 -
[2949]
Originally by: Aenis Veros What remains unanswered to me is a valid response to the problem that removing mobility creates. How can a smaller gang feasibly compete with a larger group without it?
I've suggested that falcons might be an answer. The problem with that is of course an enemy with access to a vast amount of allies is going to have more falcons. So with that problem, we come to the question again:
>> How can a smaller gang feasibly compete with a larger group without mobility?
It seems like those who argue in favour of the nano-nerf collectively believe that they shouldn't. And I can accept that, I understand the mentality of not wanting interferences in your style of game-play (your favoured 'rock' to the scissor to paraphraze myself). But the real people to ask it to is of course the developers.
What real options, means will smaller gangs have to interfere with larger groups (keeping in mind where combat takes place *)?
* Gates, asteroid belts, POS, stations, safespots, anomalies and hidden complexes.
I am not arguing in favour of having any combat mechanism being in complete favour of either side, but I want -realistic- options for a smaller gang to combat a larger one, not just through engaging a greater fleet, but for a small gang to get inside a bigger alliance's space and interfering with logistics etc. and having the ability to do so without dying 100% of the time as soon as a group twice their size comes in to stop them.
Very good point.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:47:00 -
[2950]
Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 28/07/2008 22:48:48
So, the word on the street is that the goal is actually to remove nano, rather than just weaken it?
Originally by: "Kane Rizzel" Spotted in FD- on SiSi:
Quote:
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
I'd argue this point. Ask yourself why its the "de facto method for fighting" - is it because its overpowered, or is it because its necessary in the prevalent combat environment?
Or perhaps both? In a lowsec environment, I can actually agree with nerfing it a bit, as there's no bubbles, no coordinated blobs on your ass, its easier to stay alive with a slow ship and fleet - but in 0.0, everything is against you, you need the ability to be mobile or you will die to the plethora of defense options that exist today.
Still thinking you're doing more harm than good with this "let's annihilate nano" approach...
(I still <3 you though, If...Atropos )
Click me! You know you want to... |
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Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:48:00 -
[2951]
Would I be right in thinking that even after these changes any HAC will still **** all over any T1 cruiser? And since a HAC is after all only a combat specialized cruiser isn't that really all it should do anyway?
The belief that a pimped HAC should be able to either kill or escape from almost anything else in the game just because it's expensive was always utterly unfounded (and never backed by CCP), and it clearly only did this due to unforseen consequences of certain game mechanics which were inevitably going to be readdressed at some point irrespective of how vocal the player community is about it.
I'm personally fairly critical of CCP's skills when it comes to game balancing. Their changes always seem inelegant, heavy handed, and based on arbitrary and unrealistic mechanics and these proposals are perhaps no exception.
Having said that though (and trying to look on the bright side), I can't help wondering whether if the proposed changes result in fewer nano gangs, (comprised largely of expensive pimped HACs), and if some of that spare isk ends up getting spent on pimped cruisers, BCs or BS for roaming gangs instead, might we not actually end up seeing more, and more interesting, small gang combat than we currently do?
While some of the proposed changes do at first glance seem somewhat harsh, they also hold the promise of new and innovative fittings and tactics, while at the same time all the old speed tanking tactics still exist, but just in a more limited form less applicable to quite as many ships, but similarly the main counter to speed, the web, also exists in a more limited form.
So in the round it all seems fairly reasonable to me, at the very least I'm pretty sure the world won't end if this is introduced.
Certainly a lot of people who were only used to dying very very infrequently may well end up dying more often than they were previously accustomed to. But surely that's a pretty small price to pay if there's even a chance that a bit more diversity can be returned to small gang PvP.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:48:00 -
[2952]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime So please think really hard about doing open heart surgery on a game that has been online for over 5 years.
Truer words were never spoken.
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Shinri Kyo
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:49:00 -
[2953]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Would I be right in thinking that even after these changes any HAC will still **** all over any T1 cruiser? And since a HAC is after all only a combat specialized cruiser isn't that really all it should do anyway?
Why would you fly a 200m uninsurable HAC to **** over a T1 cruiser if you can buy a 40m insurable BC and do exactly the same thing, only better?
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Ka'Shodan'Lah
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:49:00 -
[2954]
**** of with ur nerf bat its not 20/20
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:50:00 -
[2955]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset I can't help wondering whether if the proposed changes result in fewer nano gangs, (comprised largely of expensive pimped HACs), and if some of that spare isk ends up getting spent on pimped cruisers, BCs or BS for roaming gangs instead, might we not actually end up seeing more, and more interesting, small gang combat than we currently do?
Yeah, because people certainly won't just spam ever more drakes, confident in knowing that any smaller force will pop before their passive tanks start getting threatened, because missiles have no tracking and won't ever miss now.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:51:00 -
[2956]
Originally by: Shinri Kyo
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Would I be right in thinking that even after these changes any HAC will still **** all over any T1 cruiser? And since a HAC is after all only a combat specialized cruiser isn't that really all it should do anyway?
Why would you fly a 200m uninsurable HAC to **** over a T1 cruiser if you can buy a 40m insurable BC and do exactly the same thing, only better?
Quoting this for great truth.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:52:00 -
[2957]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 22:52:43
Originally by: CCP Atropos
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
Then please ADD MORE OPTIONS, don't remove the one of a few (if not only) way for a small force to do anything against a larger (not just tactically, but strategically).
You're creating a new defacto method instead, blobbing. Which clearly your engine is not up to specs to handle.
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Inflexible
Shokei
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:53:00 -
[2958]
Originally by: sakana "Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic."
lol ccp.
In my opinion, smaller and nimble gang should be able to avoid larger one and pick targets around. Thats guerilla. But definitely not be able to fly through its position and totally ignore it. Thats stupid.
Art of guerilla warfare is to be somewhere else than policing force is. If you get caught, you should pay for it.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:53:00 -
[2959]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
Certainly a lot of people who were only used to dying very very infrequently may well end up dying more often than they were previously accustomed to. But surely that's a pretty small price to pay if there's even a chance that a bit more diversity can be returned to small gang PvP.
The problem is how does CCP intend on doing this by nerfing webs, MWDs, and giving dual functions to warp scrams? Change is good, but it should come slowly, not all at once like it currently has on SiSi.
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Commander Tigre
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:54:00 -
[2960]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Would I be right in thinking that even after these changes any HAC will still **** all over any T1 cruiser? And since a HAC is after all only a combat specialized cruiser isn't that really all it should do anyway?
The belief that a pimped HAC should be able to either kill or escape from almost anything else in the game just because it's expensive was always utterly unfounded (and never backed by CCP), and it clearly only did this due to unforseen consequences of certain game mechanics which were inevitably going to be readdressed at some point irrespective of how vocal the player community is about it.
I'm personally fairly critical of CCP's skills when it comes to game balancing. Their changes always seem inelegant, heavy handed, and based on arbitrary and unrealistic mechanics and these proposals are perhaps no exception.
Having said that though (and trying to look on the bright side), I can't help wondering whether if the proposed changes result in fewer nano gangs, (comprised largely of expensive pimped HACs), and if some of that spare isk ends up getting spent on pimped cruisers, BCs or BS for roaming gangs instead, might we not actually end up seeing more, and more interesting, small gang combat than we currently do?
While some of the proposed changes do at first glance seem somewhat harsh, they also hold the promise of new and innovative fittings and tactics, while at the same time all the old speed tanking tactics still exist, but just in a more limited form less applicable to quite as many ships, but similarly the main counter to speed, the web, also exists in a more limited form.
So in the round it all seems fairly reasonable to me, at the very least I'm pretty sure the world won't end if this is introduced.
Certainly a lot of people who were only used to dying very very infrequently may well end up dying more often than they were previously accustomed to. But surely that's a pretty small price to pay if there's even a chance that a bit more diversity can be returned to small gang PvP.
I think this is a really REALLY bad assumption being made here. A pimped out (single) HAC costing 500 mill (not implants that could put it well beyond 2 bill) should be able to escape a t2 non-nano 5 man gate camp in certain circumstances. And these speed changes DO NOT allow for nano gangs with effective dps. Just because your nano should not dictate you to inties alone. Sure HACs going 8km/s is excessive but this is what the developers have created when implementing 'other' fixes such as pirate implants and such. This is a problem of oversight in the past and trying desperately to make up for it now.
"We Choose to listen to the lies we don't want to hear. The truth is, your already dead." - Commander Tigre |
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:54:00 -
[2961]
hey so i think missiles should be nerfed so ships can still speed tank ok that is all thank you get to it i demand dev reply.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:55:00 -
[2962]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
God forbid CCP allows the enjoyment to continue.........
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 22:55:00 -
[2963]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
[...]they also hold the promise of new and innovative fittings and tactics
Innovative fittings and tactics become pointless when numbers > all.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:00:00 -
[2964]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
[...]they also hold the promise of new and innovative fittings and tactics
Innovative fittings and tactics become pointless when numbers > all.
QFT.
Nanos came about as a response to the blob. If people want to blame someone, don't blame the people who use this strategy, blame CCP for giving people the option to go ludicrously fast. Seriously, if CCP didn't have the foresight or common sense to see that giving people Snake Implants and speed rigs would lead to it being abused then that's their fault. Now they're trying to correct it, but instead of slowly implementing the change to see how this affects pvp in the game, they're just going to change everything having to do with speed.
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Tardar Muller
Spitzerr's Pirate School Yarr
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:01:00 -
[2965]
Bah what ****heads, seriously why the **** would you implement something so ****ing stupid.
I think it's onto Age of Conan or something else. Trained for about 1 1/2 years to fly what I wanted to, only get ****ed in the arse by the guys making the game.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Thread does not deliver
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:01:00 -
[2966]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: CCP Atropos
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
God forbid CCP allows the enjoyment to continue.........
it would probably take longer to add new content, this is the ONLY reason i see CCP wanting to nerf things all the time, because its too much :effort: to actually do extra work. I MEAN SERIOUSLY... 5 hours, with 5 devs, and you think you can just ruin what some people have spent 100's of hours on working setups out, perfecting them, and spending umpteen billions developing? GG CCP
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:07:00 -
[2967]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:48 Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:16
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU! You had the same issues before and you managed.
You mean when every ship could fit ECM and NOS was standard-issue on any ship, and damage mods weren't stacknerfed, peak players on Tranq was around 10,000 or when you could fit multiple AB:s and MWD:s, or when even a small group could pop a ship in 5 seconds because it was before the HP-buff. Your argument is the same as Nozh's, and it sucks since the game was completely different then. (If you really were around at that time you would realize it, dear Steam-playing faction warfare loving 3 month old troll-jockey).
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:10:00 -
[2968]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:48 Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:16
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU! You had the same issues before and you managed.
You mean when every ship could fit ECM and NOS was standard-issue on any ship, and damage mods weren't stacknerfed, peak players on Tranq was around 10,000 or when you could fit multiple AB:s and MWD:s, or when even a small group could pop a ship in 5 seconds because it was before the HP-buff. Your argument is the same as Nozh's, and it sucks since the game was completely different then. (If you really were around at that time you would realize it, dear Steam-playing faction warfare loving 3 month old troll-jockey).
Aenis Veros for President!
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Serret
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:10:00 -
[2969]
Originally by: Mr Rive
I MEAN SERIOUSLY... 5 hours, with 5 devs, and you think you can just ruin what some people have spent 100's of hours on working setups out, perfecting them, and spending umpteen billions developing? GG CCP
I guess the moral of the story is, get your setup right in the first 5 hours and move on, go outside, have a beer, something.... ?!? --
<Coupo`Work> if i die illl gum you to death |
Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:12:00 -
[2970]
Originally by: "Kane Rizzel" Spotted in FD- on SiSi:
Quote:
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
I find that kind of ridiculous, I mean people will eventually start using tactics that fit their needs, you can't just go nerfing everything anytime something gets popular. People have been using sniper BS as the only way to engage eachother in large fleets for years (forever?). There's no other way to fight against that, it's what everyone does, it works, needs a nerf? No. It's effective, that's why it's done. The only difference is the nano gangs are smaller scale, more people see them and they can be used more often. There are counters and tactics used to defeat to both, but they are still widely accepted as the best strategy with their respective goals.
I can understand (and agree with,) concerns about 20km/s interceptors and vagas, but I really don't think you can compare that to your standard nanoship. Those are broken extremes, anyone remember tier 2 bc passive tanking? They were too powerful at their extremes and needed to be rebalanced, but not taken out entirely.
Latest Video
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:16:00 -
[2971]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
So, when can we expect the sniper BS nerf? Since those are the defacto for fleet warfare. Or the dread nerf? damn things are always used in POS warfare and it's ****ing me right the hell off. Hot droping black ops ftw tbqfh.
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It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:16:00 -
[2972]
Originally by: Si Raven Edited by: Si Raven on 28/07/2008 23:03:11
Originally by: Tzrailasa [The high speeds] violates one of the rules that was quoted when CCP nerfed WCS. I can't remember the exact wording, but is was something like "Committing to a fight should mean that you can not extract from it without risk!", but this is exactly what happens today. Committing to a fight doesn't carry a risk for nano-ships that is comparable to other ships.
QFT!!
From what I've read, the pro-nano lobby is complaining about the nerf, not how it is being done.
Nice argument to Tzra , you've done your homework.
As for you, Si, I'd recognize that there are two sides to the anti-nerf lobby, those that think nanos are fine the way they are today, and those that think some nerfing is in order but that this is the wrong way to go about it.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:18:00 -
[2973]
What ****es me off too is that CCP didn't bother to remirror SiSi for this big test patch. If they wanted it to be effective and accurate you would think they could at least update it... or give us all lvl 5 speed skills and make sure everyone had Cybernetics 5 to put in some HG Snakes and test out the fix to this "ludicrous speed" accurately. But no, they can't do that.
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Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:21:00 -
[2974]
Originally by: Serret
Originally by: Mr Rive
I MEAN SERIOUSLY... 5 hours, with 5 devs, and you think you can just ruin what some people have spent 100's of hours on working setups out, perfecting them, and spending umpteen billions developing? GG CCP
I guess the moral of the story is, get your setup right in the first 5 hours and move on, go outside, have a beer, something.... ?!?
Outside? What is this concept you speak of good sir?
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Si Raven
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:25:00 -
[2975]
Originally by: Aenis Veros Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:48 Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 23:08:16
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU! You had the same issues before and you managed.
You mean when every ship could fit ECM and NOS was standard-issue on any ship, and damage mods weren't stacknerfed, peak players on Tranq was around 10,000 or when you could fit multiple AB:s and MWD:s, or when even a small group could pop a ship in 5 seconds because it was before the HP-buff.
Not all those nerfs happen after the intro of snakes and polycarbs, so don't go from 1 extreme to another.
Originally by: Aenis Veros (If you really were around at that time you would realize it, dear Steam-playing faction warfare loving 3 month old troll-jockey).
Says the 10 month old power-gamer Achura character. Picking that character doesn't help your argument for balanced play! So what are you doing in your 1 man corp?
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:25:00 -
[2976]
CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:26:00 -
[2977]
Originally by: Tomic CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
I don't think you're the first Tomic, sorry. People are already calling this the NGE patch.
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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:28:00 -
[2978]
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU!
Just hold on there with comments like this.
I think that long time players should have at least equal say and not have to endure "STFU" abuse from the likes of yourself.
I'm all for adjusting the game and making changes to it, otherwise I wouldn't still be here after over 5 years.
But what CCP is proposing here is not adjusting so that people can adapt, they are talking about a serious change in game mechanics. Sometimes, after investing literally years of training in the game, you have to draw a line as to what is adapting to game development and what is simply an over reactionary response to forum whines.
EVE is a cold and dark place, get used to having people, that have the skills to do things that you can't do yet, kill you.
You should adjust to PvP life, not the PvPers being *FORCED* to adjust so that you can grow a pair and finally fight another player like he is an NPC.
EVE is about thinking about how to attack, defend and generally getting ahead in the game. The operative word being "think". If you can't do that, then EVE probably isn't your game because other players in EVE don't think like CCP's AI NPCs, so adapt from your NPC ways. --
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:30:00 -
[2979]
Originally by: Si Raven
Not all those nerfs happen after the intro of snakes and polycarbs, so don't go from 1 extreme to another.
No, they happened before the introduction of polycarbs, and most of them before snakes. Like I said, the game was very different before polycarbs and snakes (thanks for repeating my argument for me).
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Si Raven
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:30:00 -
[2980]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Si Raven From what I've read, the pro-nano lobby is complaining about the nerf, not how it is being done.
As for you, Si, I'd recognize that there are two sides to the anti-nerf lobby, those that think nanos are fine the way they are today, and those that think some nerfing is in order but that this is the wrong way to go about it.
I hope so! I'm just not going to read all 115 pages tonight/this year to find them!!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:30:00 -
[2981]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Originally by: Si Raven If you've been playing longer, just STFU!
Just hold on there with comments like this.
I think that long time players should have at least equal say and not have to endure "STFU" abuse from the likes of yourself.
I'm all for adjusting the game and making changes to it, otherwise I wouldn't still be here after over 5 years.
But what CCP is proposing here is not adjusting so that people can adapt, they are talking about a serious change in game mechanics. Sometimes, after investing literally years of training in the game, you have to draw a line as to what is adapting to game development and what is simply an over reactionary response to forum whines.
EVE is a cold and dark place, get used to having people, that have the skills to do things that you can't do yet, kill you.
You should adjust to PvP life, not the PvPers being *FORCED* to adjust so that you can grow a pair and finally fight another player like he is an NPC.
EVE is about thinking about how to attack, defend and generally getting ahead in the game. The operative word being "think". If you can't do that, then EVE probably isn't your game because other players in EVE don't think like CCP's AI NPCs, so adapt from your NPC ways.
^ I totally agree.
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manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:36:00 -
[2982]
Edited by: manasi on 28/07/2008 23:37:16
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Tomic CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
I don't think you're the first Tomic, sorry. People are already calling this the NGE patch.
get real..the NGE re-did every class, every specialty, the whole game for gods sake (( I was there) and was almost to the pinnacle of that game was supposed to be. I needed two more weeks to be fully templated...)
This changes one factor that they ( CCP, the owners, designers, caretakers of the game) asked US our responses for...in advance...up front.
Like it or hate it at least they have asked. Hell they can/could do whatever the hell they want, it is their game we pay to play it.
Look me up you'll see I started this game in May 2004. Yes i took a break, this is a game....adapt, survive , overcome.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:38:00 -
[2983]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
I think that long time players should have at least equal say and not have to endure "STFU" abuse from the likes of yourself.
I'm all for adjusting the game and making changes to it, otherwise I wouldn't still be here after over 5 years.
But what CCP is proposing here is not adjusting so that people can adapt, they are talking about a serious change in game mechanics. Sometimes, after investing literally years of training in the game, you have to draw a line as to what is adapting to game development and what is simply an over reactionary response to forum whines.
EVE is a cold and dark place, get used to having people, that have the skills to do things that you can't do yet, kill you.
You should adjust to PvP life, not the PvPers being *FORCED* to adjust so that you can grow a pair and finally fight another player like he is an NPC.
EVE is about thinking about how to attack, defend and generally getting ahead in the game. The operative word being "think". If you can't do that, then EVE probably isn't your game because other players in EVE don't think like CCP's AI NPCs, so adapt from your NPC ways.
Wisdom, my man.
I just think there should be added options, for instance there is nothing wrong with this chain of thought:
* Let's increase the usefulness of the afterburner in PvP. * Let's improve upon the ability of the Arazu. * Let's make nano's not be the one option for PvP.
They are all solid reasons, but the solution was just :facepalm:
Increasing opportunities for PvP by removing an option of how to do it is totally wrong in my opinion. Make the others at least as viable. How about working with buffing other things instead of nerfing things? For instance by making Black Ops. battleships move ANY ship with them with their jump portal? Or by creating several ways of getting through a blob other than speed. For instance, the ability to make you use an afterburner while cloaked. (Think about it, if you have an MWD on your rapier you can't move quickly while cloaked - and it would make the Pilgrim more fun as well).
It's just innovative thinking and making IMPROVEMENTS that get people positive. While CCP currently is working in a very negative fashion of nerfing things. Of course it's gonna **** people off. Who gets ****ed off if you decide to increase several ships ability to deal with not only nano, but with other ways of doing combat too?
I think there has been a little too little use of imagination in this patch. Are the devs seriously this unimaginative? =/
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:40:00 -
[2984]
Originally by: manasi This changes one factor that they ( CCP, the owners, designers, caretakers of the game) asked US our responses for...in advance...up front.
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
Yeah, it certainly sounds like they're eager for our input and opinions, not like they've already decided and just expect us to take it like little *****es, regardless of how amazingly gamebreaking these dipshit changes are.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:43:00 -
[2985]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: manasi This changes one factor that they ( CCP, the owners, designers, caretakers of the game) asked US our responses for...in advance...up front.
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
Yeah, it certainly sounds like they're eager for our input and opinions, not like they've already decided and just expect us to take it like little *****es, regardless of how amazingly gamebreaking these dipshit changes are.
Say what you want, they are asking....that was my point. Sure they have opinions but do you honestly think that they have not thought about the aspects that all these folks are mentioning? This is their life. This is their product, the fact that they even ask ( unheard of if you ask me) is good.
Persevere
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:44:00 -
[2986]
Originally by: manasi Edited by: manasi on 28/07/2008 23:37:16
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Tomic CCP start the downward spiral towards the end of EVE? Calling it here first.
I don't think you're the first Tomic, sorry. People are already calling this the NGE patch.
get real..the NGE re-did every class, every specialty, the whole game for gods sake (( I was there) and was almost to the pinnacle of that game was supposed to be. I needed two more weeks to be fully templated...)
This changes one factor that they ( CCP, the owners, designers, caretakers of the game) asked US our responses for...in advance...up front.
Like it or hate it at least they have asked. Hell they can/could do whatever the hell they want, it is their game we pay to play it.
Look me up you'll see I started this game in May 2004. Yes i took a break, this is a game....adapt, survive , overcome.
Yes, we pay to play it. CCP wouldn't have a game if we didn't pay them (Auto Assault come to mind?). They should and need to listen to the community. It's a good business strategy.
But CCP shouldn't go and make such huge changes without giving us some sort of numbers about how many people are abusing speed. They should tell us what they expect from the players. This is a sandbox MMO, they give us these options and we do adapt. This isn't a grind like WoW where they give us new items for new levels and new dungeons to get these items in, which then obsolete our old ones. They're taking the nerfbat to some ships that should get nerfed, but they're swinging too wildly and it's impacting other aspects of the game.
The problem is that the people who haven't adapted to fighting nanos have always been vocal on the forums and now CCP is trying to change a large portion of the game which could have unforseen consequences. We simply don't know what will happen. Isn't it better to make small changes first before doing all this wacky stuff with webs, MWDs, and scrams?
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:45:00 -
[2987]
Do I have to find that post of that Vagabond fitting? Do I really?
They are doing what they've been known for, shortsighted myopic nerfs.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Si Raven
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:48:00 -
[2988]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Si Raven
Not all those nerfs happen after the intro of snakes and polycarbs, so don't go from 1 extreme to another.
No, they happened before the introduction of polycarbs, and most of them before snakes. Like I said, the game was very different before polycarbs and snakes (thanks for repeating my argument for me).
Maybe I need to get some sleep because it sounds like you're repeating my argument! The game was very different between now and the period before the intro of polycarbs and snakes but after what you listed.
And I'm claiming it was only the increases in speed that has made the difference as far as nanos are concerned! Titans shouldn't affect only nanos, FW shouldn't affect only nanos, increases in subscriptions shouldn't affect only nanos.
The only important changes that affect nano cruisers that I can think of are interdictors & warp bubbles. So instead of flying cruisers and staying together, some will have to fly interceptors and the gang will have to use team work.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:48:00 -
[2989]
Over 3400 posts have been made as feedback, and it seems that player feedback really isn't that important anymore unless it's in favor of what CCP is doing. Well, it's their game, and I obviously pay for it (and likely will continue to). I will adapt by changing the way I play the game and accept the inevitable consequences of what they're doing. And I think most of us will.
But I think that the sacrifice made will have lasting effects that I have no clue about right now, but my best guess is that they will make the game less fun, and promote a type of game play that it actually was made to combat (one-sided cookie cutter PvP).
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:48:00 -
[2990]
Originally by: Haakelen Do I have to find that post of that Vagabond fitting? Do I really?
They are doing what they've been known for, shortsighted myopic nerfs.
Yeah seriously. If they showed some knowledge as to what the problem is then I'm sure less people would be annoyed. But the sheer ignorance some of the devs have shown about their own game is shocking.
Just because they are the ones in charge doesn't necessarily mean they're right.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:49:00 -
[2991]
Originally by: Si Raven Maybe I need to get some sleep
Probably :), PvP was way different then because there were other options in combat that aren't available anymore.
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manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:50:00 -
[2992]
Quote: Isn't it better to make small changes first before doing all this wacky stuff with webs, MWDs, and scrams?
Yes it is better, yes more info would be good, I said it was good I did not say great..hell i'm a ceptor pilot that just spent 25 days training minmatar to 5 to fly a rapier for petes sake..I understand being upset and whatnot was just trying for some prespective.
we shall certainly see what comes.
TheMule
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:01:00 -
[2993]
Edited by: Hehulk on 29/07/2008 00:00:55
Originally by: Haakelen Do I have to find that post of that Vagabond fitting? Do I really?
They are doing what they've been known for, shortsighted myopic nerfs.
Here you go
(I knew it was a good idea to book-mark that) ----------
It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:03:00 -
[2994]
GM Atropos is completely right:
There was little variety in pvp outside of fleet engagements. It was near risk free nano's zipping around, well nigh uncatchable to anything but other nano's or web specialized ships (whom themselves were normally nano'd)
The problem is only exasperated by people who have the skills and ISK to push the system to the limit, leaving the range of just following a trend and coming near to breaking the physics engine.
CCP has always made decisions based on their desire to see variety: they've never been fans of cookie cutter setups and have always made changes to increase difference of setups and tactics (rigs, overheating, implants, boosters...things that add variety to combat)
I think most everyone can say that the prevelance of nano's has gotten to the piont that something has to be done. CCP ahs done it, but they always nerf hard then adjust. Whether these changes are harsh will be determined by testing AND the player base. SUre, you dont have input now, but Im sure CCP will monitor threads carefully and weigh well thought out arguments based on testing down on SiSi.
Now, whether Jump Bridges have really changed teh dynamic of 00 pvp to the piont that small gangs just cant do anything besides get camped in is a matter of argument. Im sure if its the case, CCP will do something about it in a subsuequet patch. But until that point, CCP knows for sure that nano's are too numerous, too fast, and too invincible to anything except a small handful of tactics and setups.
That's my conclusive post. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Velvet69
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:03:00 -
[2995]
Edited by: Velvet69 on 29/07/2008 00:04:19 Edited by: Velvet69 on 29/07/2008 00:04:06
Originally by: Haakelen Do I have to find that post of that Vagabond fitting? Do I really?
They are doing what they've been known for, shortsighted myopic nerfs.
You mean this one ?
-edit- got beaten too it, but yeah, it's a good one to BM
IXC Velvet69 Proud Member of 'The House of Prawn' |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:07:00 -
[2996]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg CCP has always made decisions based on their desire to see variety
Why are they making a nerf that reduces variety then? This nerf will take away all the current advantages of hac's being smaller and lighter than bc/bs leaving them pretty pointless (why use a 90m hac when you can use a 30m bc).
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:08:00 -
[2997]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 00:09:09
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg GM Atropos is completely right:
There was little variety in pvp outside of fleet engagements. It was near risk free nano's zipping around, well nigh uncatchable to anything but other nano's or web specialized ships (whom themselves were normally nano'd)
The problem is only exasperated by people who have the skills and ISK to push the system to the limit, leaving the range of just following a trend and coming near to breaking the physics engine.
CCP has always made decisions based on their desire to see variety: they've never been fans of cookie cutter setups and have always made changes to increase difference of setups and tactics (rigs, overheating, implants, boosters...things that add variety to combat)
I think most everyone can say that the prevelance of nano's has gotten to the piont that something has to be done. CCP ahs done it, but they always nerf hard then adjust. Whether these changes are harsh will be determined by testing AND the player base. SUre, you dont have input now, but Im sure CCP will monitor threads carefully and weigh well thought out arguments based on testing down on SiSi.
Now, whether Jump Bridges have really changed teh dynamic of 00 pvp to the piont that small gangs just cant do anything besides get camped in is a matter of argument. Im sure if its the case, CCP will do something about it in a subsuequet patch. But until that point, CCP knows for sure that nano's are too numerous, too fast, and too invincible to anything except a small handful of tactics and setups.
That's my conclusive post.
And once again explaining that nanos are overpowered but not saying WHY other than them being uncatchable, just like my aligned Falcon jamming at 100km+. NERF ANYTHING THAT CAN GET AWAY!!!!
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:09:00 -
[2998]
I swear to god, it's as if you nerf whiners have talking points.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg variety in pvp
Because homogeneous blobs are 'variety in PvP'.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg web specialized ships
Curse + Neuts. Heavy neuts. Warhead Flare Catalyst Cerberuses. Sentries + Neuts on Drone ships. ECM + Interceptors.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg breaking the physics engine.
Fix your worthless physics engine, then.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I think most everyone can say that the prevelance of nano's
I think most everyone can say that the prevalence of blobs is...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg whether Jump Bridges have really changed teh dynamic of 00
'Roaming gangs have always been a problem!'
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg That's my conclusive post.
Your conclusive post is shit.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:09:00 -
[2999]
Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg CCP has always made decisions based on their desire to see variety
Why are they making a nerf that reduces variety then? This nerf will take away all the current advantages of hac's being smaller and lighter than bc/bs leaving them pretty pointless (why use a 90m hac when you can use a 30m bc).
Variety of ships homey. And, speed fitting is still very much a tank option for cruisers, just need a Turret disrupter...ofc, you wont be able to snub your nose at gatecamps. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:11:00 -
[3000]
Haaklen, you're saying w/o nanos there will be more blobs or that you wont be able to avoid the blob.
Cause I could care whichever was your intent. Avoid the blob with intelligence and roaming gangs will stay in teh same #'s. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:15:00 -
[3001]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Haaklen, you're saying w/o nanos there will be more blobs or that you wont be able to avoid the blob.
Cause I could care whichever was your intent. Avoid the blob with intelligence and roaming gangs will stay in teh same #'s.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
[...]In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.
[...]If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it
So running away from a blob in non-nano is okay, but running away from the blob is nano is not okay?
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:16:00 -
[3002]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Variety of ships homey.
Where is the variety? All I see is the removing of options from the game. There is no increase in variety of other styles of gameplay that weren't already there, only a decrease in the ships able to "nano".
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:17:00 -
[3003]
You have as much as said in this very thread that:
Roaming gangs, at the core, are incorrect. Numbers should always win. Blobbing is good, and fun. Guerilla Warfare exists only as ganking ratters and industrialists, and does not involve countering larger enemies (see also #2).
So, when you say, 'You'll find ways to avoid the blob', you're telling me that the collective community of people who know what they're doing will find more ways that you will whine and cry about that 'must be changed because they're FOTMsploitunbalancedjesuschristwhywon'tyounerfit'.
You'll excuse me for not taking you seriously when you talk about roaming gangs and asymmetric warfare.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:19:00 -
[3004]
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Haaklen, you're saying w/o nanos there will be more blobs or that you wont be able to avoid the blob.
Cause I could care whichever was your intent. Avoid the blob with intelligence and roaming gangs will stay in teh same #'s.
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
[...]In addition, people will not have to blob to do small gangs or 'avoid the blob'. You avoid the blob by not engaging it, and running away from it if its after you.
[...]If a nano gang jumps into a system and finds there's a 'blob' there, boohoo, you shouldnt be able to outrun it
So running away from a blob in non-nano is okay, but running away from the blob is nano is not okay?
I think what he actually means is "yay, now I can mine in peace". Seriously though, he is pointing out EXACTLY why this whole patch is completely wrong. It is a patch that PROMOTES blobbing. Any patch that does this is totally wrong, since in doing so it promotes lag. CCP should spend their time fixing the problems with the game, and not nerf something that is a non-problem.
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Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:23:00 -
[3005]
I'm not an evangelist on either side of this particular discussion, I can see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I am fairly suspicious of though is balancing ships of the same hull class by cost. I'm mostly against this because CCP sells isk for RL cash via the GTC system, so a fairly fancy HAC only costs the equivalent of a couple of pints of beer.
Originally by: "Sakura Nihil"
Why would you fly a 200m uninsurable HAC to **** over a T1 cruiser if you can buy a 40m insurable BC and do exactly the same thing, only better?
There are plenty of people in Eve with money to burn, and many HACs offer significant advantages over BCs to those who are even only reasonably well off.
Originally by: "Commader Tigre"
A pimped out (single) nano-HAC costing 500 mill (not implants that could put it well beyond 2 bill) should be able to escape a t2 non-nano 5 man gate camp ...
'Should' in this case equates to 'what should happen in Eve', which ultimately means 'what CCP wants to happen'. I've never heard any dev suggest that spending any amount of money should equate to a get out of jail free card. Therefore I resectfully suggest that your assertion is unfounded. Personally I always wanted Eve to primarily be a game of skill, having those with the most money being able to **** all over anyone else even if their skills are crap doesn't fit in with my view of what I would like Eve to be, therefore as much as I respect your opinion I do not support it.
But this is clearly not a black and white issue though. Obviously better equipment should convey some advantage to those able to pay for it and willing to risk it, but this is an area which requires careful balance or it gets out of hand. According to the game designers ships were never intended to be able to reach speeds at which they can avoid all damage, or be able to disengage so easily. So the swing of the nerf bat is inevitable. All that remains is to see is whether it swings judiciously.
One of Eve's most sacred and long standing tenets is 'no solo pwn mobiles' and balancing ships of the same hull class by cost risks violating that tenet, (especially in mid sized ship classes which are particularly versatile). Generally Eve maintains this tenet by assuring that something which is 10% better than its peers is a lot more expensive, and something which is 50% better is a crap load more expensive, and as a general rule nothing is intentionally orders of magnitude better than anything else.
Right now HACs are a crap load better than T1 cruisers. Compare a Stabber and a Vagabond, the Vagabond is miles better in every single respect. It is clearly much more than 10% better, I can't see anyone complaining that it should cost a crap load more. If the proposed speed nerf goes through the Stabber and Vagabond are both effected similarly, the Vagabond is still crap loads better, it should still cost a crap load more. A well fitted T1 cruiser costs 20M and is insurable for about 6M, a Vagabond is in reality around 100M fitted. I can't see a problem with this. Only rigged/faction fit does a Vagabond cost 200M plus and none of that's insured on the HAC or the cruiser anyway so there's little point bringing it into the equation, especially considering that one of the primary goals of this nerf is to make the severly pimped speed tanks which avoid all missile and drone damage and are many times better then their peers unfeasible.
Balancing stuff by cost, and having mechanics that give bonuses orders of magnitude over the baseline only overcomplicates things, creates FOTM playstyles, which inevitably leads to dissatisfaction when the balance must be readdressed. The only sensible way to balance stuff is by class and role. If a HAC is balanced by class and role then it should be balanced as a combat specialised cruiser, and with around 50% more combat effectiveness it should cost a crap load more.
...
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Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:23:00 -
[3006]
I'm fairly firm in my conviction that the whole HACs flying faster than max boosted light drones and missiles is an unintended and unhelpful mechanic that doesn't do the game any good at all. Whether the proposed changes are the best solution to the problem I'm not so sure.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:25:00 -
[3007]
Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 00:27:06 What Haniblecter Teg wants us to believe is that once a defender's fleet reaches a point of equilibrium, a non-sovereignty assault by an invader should not matter. It is an exploit, or at the best, 'unbalanced', that they could challenge such a fleet, maybe not even killing all of it (hell, some of it), but that they could be in the same system as it and not die. That Player sov 0.0 should be perfectly safe unless there's a direct attack on the sovereignty of it.
The problem is that that is ****ing boring as hell and only carebears want that.
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset I'm fairly firm in my conviction that the whole HACs flying faster than max boosted light drones and missiles is an unintended and unhelpful mechanic that doesn't do the game any good at all. Whether the proposed changes are the best solution to the problem I'm not so sure.
Warhead Flare Catalyst. Drone Speed Augmentor. The counters exist, not involving cap warfare or webs. You must be willing to look out of the box and specialize, just as nano pilots do.
My Ishtar goes 3.8km/s, my Ares goes 6.8km/s (unrigged). My Alt's Vaga (no implants, accel 4), goes 5.6km/s. HACs do not go faster than inties.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:27:00 -
[3008]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
Originally by: "Sakura Nihil"
Why would you fly a 200m uninsurable HAC to **** over a T1 cruiser if you can buy a 40m insurable BC and do exactly the same thing, only better?
There are plenty of people in Eve with money to burn, and many HACs offer significant advantages over BCs to those who are even only reasonably well off.
Get your quotations right . Though I do support the argument.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:31:00 -
[3009]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset I'm fairly firm in my conviction that the whole HACs flying faster than max boosted light drones and missiles is an unintended and unhelpful mechanic that doesn't do the game any good at all. Whether the proposed changes are the best solution to the problem I'm not so sure.
You could say the same thing about snipers though, and people aren't calling for those to be nerfed (in fact they just got a boost). Sniping from a long range negates drones and missiles just the same as speed does. It makes perfect sense to make ever faster ships, why wouldn't people make up modules for ships that make them go fast enough to evade enemies weapons, after all they invented shield and armor boosters to tank the damage from enemies weapons, speed is another obvious method of surviving. To effectively end the speed tank is to remove content from the game.
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Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:32:00 -
[3010]
Edited by: Divus on 29/07/2008 00:36:07 Edited by: Divus on 29/07/2008 00:33:23 People keep saying everyone is flying nano-gangs these days. I can not confirm this. In reality people field the fallowing (against our long range hac gangs - which aint no nano-gangs lol)
1. Carriers 2. Motherships 3. Titans 4. Mixed gangs 5. Battleship Gangs 6. Cruiser/HAC-Gangs 7. .... 9. .... 10. 2345. Nano Gangs <-- 87899. Smartbombing Battleships 455646. Battlebadgers
To be honest i remember exactly 1 nanogang in the last 6 month.
So i aint see the problem, someone pls enlighten me, cheers
edit: to get the point through: i think with this changes your just breaking the game for everyone who does not enjoy the blob. Saying it is naccessary is somple bs
-------------------------------------------------
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:32:00 -
[3011]
After a cup of tea and some deep breaths I started reading.
I dont think anyone argues the fact that NANO'ing is over powered.
Far FAR FARRRRR better solutions from suggestions in this thread.
- Scripted Web's hello this is good 20km range at say -30% effect best solution by a long shot.
- Polycarb/nano/overdrive/istab stacking fix yep its needed no doubt.
- Max Top speed of ship (Vaga 4500 Crow 5500 soemthing that simple)
The absolutely WTF are you thinking ideas.
- Scrambling MWD, hello arazu best ship ever, so that will need a nerf then something else will need a nerf to make the last arazu nerf less sucky rinse repeat......its how game designers keep there jobs.
- mwd reactivation, I can warp and hit warp again as soon as i stop right????????????????
Thats about as far as i got before rage quitting forums lol.
One question.....CCP you know missiles ALWAYS hit right defenders dont work you know that so the only defence is speed or have you another plan??
Welcome to passive drakes online.
P
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:34:00 -
[3012]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset 'Should' in this case equates to 'what should happen in Eve', which ultimately means 'what CCP wants to happen'. I've never heard any dev suggest that spending any amount of money should equate to a get out of jail free card. Therefore I resectfully suggest that your assertion is unfounded. Personally I always wanted Eve to primarily be a game of skill, having those with the most money being able to **** all over anyone else even if their skills are crap doesn't fit in with my view of what I would like Eve to be, therefore as much as I respect your opinion I do not support it.
I think you'll find in most MMOs it's the people with the most money/better items/more time spent that have an advantage over someone who is "skilled". If you want to play a game that only requires skill and no other factors then play a FPS, but MMOs are designed to factor in other equations.
Besides, what pimped out Vaga is going 10km/s+ with all level 1 skills? Most of those rare pimpmobile cases are from people who have trained up the skills needed to fly the ship so well that it "breaks" the game mechanics.
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:36:00 -
[3013]
Originally by: Divus Edited by: Divus on 29/07/2008 00:33:23 People keep saying everyone is flying nano-gangs these days. I can not confirm this. In reality people field the fallowing (against our long range hac gangs - which aint no nano-gangs lol)
1. Carriers 2. Motherships 3. Titans 4. Mixed gangs 5. Battleship Gangs 6. Cruiser/HAC-Gangs 7. .... 9. .... 10. 2345. Nano Gangs <-- 87899. Smartbombing Battleships 455646. Battlebadgers
To be honest i remember exactly 1 nanogang in the last 6 month.
So i aint see the problem, someone pls enlighten me, cheers
Battle mammoth are getting popular /me looks at gneez
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Ghostthor
Caldari Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:37:00 -
[3014]
Rock Paper Scissors.
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:39:00 -
[3015]
0.0 alliances Will be loving this there miners adn carebears will be n isk heaven, no more light gang raids into hostile space you will need some sort of heavy gang as everyone needs to tank now.
The map will be intel enough (the big red dot)
Yay for the bears.
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Jack Soul
Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:41:00 -
[3016]
I have tested a bit as requested by CCP and I am sad to say my worries were confirmed.
This nerf is far to heavy. All that is really needed is for polycarbs to be fixed, all speed mods made to stack and maybe lower the speed bonus on snakes (though by maybe 15 - 25% instead of 50%)
The new warp scram effect is interesting, and improves the Gallente recons, so this also could be a very interesting thing to add.
Overall though, these changes all add up to much to quickly and over the top.
Eve really doesnt need this huge change, it just needs the silly speed fits to be nerfed a bit, and maybe a boost in the way to fight against speed setups. NOT to reduce everyones speed, make changes to mods EVERYONE uses (ie webs), **** people off by making changes to skills / implants AND nerf speed mods!
Also this will cause many issues for tacklers. Warping to a belt in your Inty to find your target is 120k away from you will mean a lot of missed action when the target has about 15 seconds to warp out or find his cloak button.
Speed may be relative between ships, but distance is still the same, burning out to get to a sniper or jammer, getting out of a bubble or just trying to get into range for your guns.
Please rethink these changes.
*********
Blue are the life-giving waters, taken for granted, they quietly understand... Once happy turquoise armies lay opposite ready, but wonder why the fight is on...
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:42:00 -
[3017]
Originally by: Pheleus
- Scripted Web's hello this is good 20km range at say -30% effect best solution by a long shot.
Yep. The only problem that people will argue is that "then the nano ship can run out of web range". But it is a step in the right direction. Maybe have something like the effect is boosted another 10% against a ship that has a MWD running? I don't know. It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:45:00 -
[3018]
Originally by: Markas Crais It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense.
This part of the nerf is what gets me the most. It's what gives me the biggest impression that CCP threw this shit out, not caring what it did.
It breaks many, many ships. Some unrelated to this entire idea of 'nanos' at all. Some of which were already painfully lagging behind in usefulness. And why? As if the speed changes weren't enough. Boosting Gallente recons? ahahaha. Gallente is the one most hit by it.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:55:00 -
[3019]
Edited by: Kira Novia on 29/07/2008 00:55:26
Originally by: Haakelen Gallente is the one most hit by it.
Like I said... if these changes go through... and I lost 9 months of skill-training and get royally screwed, I am canceling my subscription and telling CCP to go **** themselves. What's scary is I can point out roughly 40 others who feel the same way. And those people know people who feel the same way. You can see where this is going.
CCP, you are going to kill your game with these changes.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:57:00 -
[3020]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:05:29 Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:04:38 Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 01:00:11
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Markas Crais It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense.
This part of the nerf is what gets me the most. It's what gives me the biggest impression that CCP threw this shit out, not caring what it did.
It breaks many, many ships. Some unrelated to this entire idea of 'nanos' at all. Some of which were already painfully lagging behind in usefulness. And why? As if the speed changes weren't enough. Boosting Gallente recons? ahahaha. Gallente is the one most hit by it.
I don't like the idea I need to rely on inertia to be carrying me in to range with my blasters. Optimal with Electron IIs and faction ammo on my Mega is 2.6km Void is a bit better at 4.5, so if from 9km I need to keep coasting to get in range of something that can be hitting me from further and kiting me, I find that ridiculous. Sure, I could put on a scram too, but if I'm warping in even 12km away from a ship I need a disruptor on a BS otherwise once I start doing damage it's just going to warp away. And I'm sorry, but after testing, the AB is still too damn slow on a blaster BS to be worthwhile unless you warp in right on top of your target because that -60% web nerf is still hurting me from holding the target in range.
To me, it doesn't make sense to be giving scrams points and the ability to turn off MWDs. Why not give some other module dual functions as well?
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NemisisEnforcer
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:58:00 -
[3021]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 21:05:59 No matter what happens with HACs and Nanos, the whole 'Scram kills MWD' and ridiculously weak webs need to be gone.
BTW, it's obvious CCP and every one of you pro-nerf whining mother****ers have no interest at all in keeping Guerilla and asymmetric warfare alive in Eve.
'Sure, we're removing the only effective way to do it, but Guerilla warfare must still be viable!'.
Get out.
/signed.
CCP Obviously don't have a grip on things if they are going to marginalize pvpers for the benefit of carebear's. CCP, don't nerf the webber and if you really do want to make something to shut off the mwd then why don't you just make a new item that does not also prevent warp. The Scram is designed to overpower a warp stab (I can't believe you guys don't know this, you call yourselves dev's?) not shut off an MWD. Very very stupid CCP. I understand a need to change the nano setups (but you don't need to completely destroy everything to do with speeding up a ship) but I think you also are going a little too far with some of this. Gee, it's worked for a few years but now it's time to completely nix everything? LAME.
I have begun to look for a new game, not sure if I'll quit or not should you some important aspects of pvp but I'm sure thinking about it. (No you cannot have my stuff)
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Battalier
Caldari eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:10:00 -
[3022]
This is a load of absolute crap. Why don't CCP engineers concentrate in solving Lag issues that seriously affect gameplay and leave ships, skills and mods alone for a while.
There are effective counters to 'Ludicrous' speed, just ask any nano pilot about rapiers. Players invest a lot of time and effort in training specific skills and obtaining specific items in order to attain certain goals. These efforts are then made totally meaningless by some CCP **** giving in to a whinger who has never bothered to try and come up with an effective counter measure.
Also consider that removing the abilty to move fast with some safety is going to seriously restrict movement throughout 0.0, the ramifications of this are scary.
Rather than destroy the enjoyment of a large number of players how about just increasing the availability of counter measures to speed.
Currently Caldari Ships overall quite useless for nano ops. How about giving some of them effective counters to speed.
Please keep uppermost in your mind that Ludicrous speed dont just happen, as a general rule, pilots must invest an awful lot of time and effort in to acheiving those speeds. Dont make that time spent meaningless.
And no, I dont own snakes, and I cant afford many faction mods, and I am not a very good PvP'r or a very fast one.
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:16:00 -
[3023]
Originally by: Markas Crais
Originally by: Pheleus
- Scripted Web's hello this is good 20km range at say -30% effect best solution by a long shot.
Yep. The only problem that people will argue is that "then the nano ship can run out of web range".
You strike a good point maybe the rate of decelleration once a web is applied needs a good hard look.
"" I don't know. It sure beats the wacky warp scram turning off your MWD and -60% web nonsense""
LOL man that is a great comment.
These changes strike me like a government instead of one or two fixed they used 50 changes to fix one thing and not know whatelse it effects then change more things to fix all the things the first change wrecked...my head hurts.
P
PS the scripted web thing is someone elses idea from page 25 i think so all credit to whomever it was.
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:17:00 -
[3024]
I BLAME THIS ON THE GOONSWARM JIHAD! THEY CAUSED THIS MESS.
That said.
The Era of the Carebear is upon us. The time of the PvPer is coming to an end. All that remains... is where we make our final stand.
On a side note: We now know, that without a doubt, CCP favors Caldari.
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:19:00 -
[3025]
Originally by: Kira Novia
CCP, you are going to kill your game with these changes.
Best Advice: Fire the idiotic developers...
~Looks at Nozh~
...who have not played this game and don't know what the hell they're changing.
THIS!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:21:00 -
[3026]
Posted this before, but here's my proof that not all nanos are so overpowered!
Nano Ishtar vs. Moros
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Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:31:00 -
[3027]
Originally by: Aenis Veros I want -realistic- options for a smaller gang to combat a larger one, not just through engaging a greater fleet, but for a small gang to get inside a bigger alliance's space and interfering with logistics etc. and having the ability to do so without dying 100% of the time as soon as a group twice their size comes in to stop them.
Use a scout. Try at different times. Eventually you will get into your target's space unscathed. If not, then either you're not trying hard enough, you have a spy amongst you, or your target is simply too well entrenched. Try hitting their lowsec routes, or perhaps a different target altogether.
The biggest problem you'll face, whether or not you're speed tanked, is moving through gates. So what's the solution? Don't move through gates. Stay in system and kill ratters and miners like you said you want to do. That is, after all, guerilla warfare.
Once you're in system and you're killing ratters, miners, even haulers... just be smart. If you get a defensive gang warping on top of you, you've got less than a moment to decide: fight or flight. If you fight, you could die, just like anyone else. If you flight, you flight to a safespot and hope you don't get scrambled while you're aligning. So what's the solution? Stay aligned. If you're already aligned, then you're pretty much just as safe as nanos currently are.
If you get a blob after you, then just cloak up if you can, or else bounce around safespots. Wait out your 15 minute aggression timer. If the blob is persistent, then just log off. Maybe you will die, maybe not. If you're good, you will have obviously killed plenty of ratters, miners, and industrials to already cause more damage to your target than you will lose in your ship.
That is, in effect, true guerilla warfare. Way too many of you nano***s today think that a roaming gang is guerilla warfare. It's not. If you're going into a target system for "guerilla warfare" and expect to be able to get out relatively safely before you log off, then you are not using guerilla tactics: you are using roaming tactics. If you're using roaming tactics with speed tanks, you are currently using broken game mechanics to make you disproportionately safer than less-skilled roaming gangs.
What is wrong with speedtanks that makes them broken? Simple: it is far easier to make your ship fast than it is to kill that fast ship. And that is what CCP is trying to fix... though perhaps they are being a bit heavy-handed with their fix.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:32:00 -
[3028]
Originally by: Commander Tigre There are several scenarios where a small gang should get away from a gate camp. Also, if your idea holds true, then holding pinching points on 0.0 -> low/high sec gates means 0.0 is even more static as far as sovereignty and guerrilla warfare.
Roaming gangs should have little to do with combatting sovereignty. And again, roaming gangs are not guerilla warfare.
Originally by: Commander Tigre Just because you know where the camps are does not allow you passage from point a to c, which is needed in a small roaming gangs. If you need to get to point a -> c and point b was the only way through but point b was camped... then there is no chance to get there according to your logic.
There's always a way around. Whether it's going an additional 20 jumps or simply waiting until your target's non-peak hours.
Or you can find a different target to harass. You are, after all, roaming, right?
Originally by: Tzrailasa This should not be a one-sided game where the attacker, just because he uses nano-ships, is not catchable by the defender.
What IS it about dying that you nano-pilots have such a problem with.... It's a natural thing in a game like this...
This.
Originally by: Malachon Draco Bullshit. If you have 15 guys, and the other guy has 20 guys on a gate waiting for you, if you jump in he can warp 40 more guys in and take you out. If you jump in with a nanogang, you can make it through and get a real fight. I think you got a bit rusty in those big blobs, you obviously don't know what kind of gangs get hotdropped with MS, titans and big defence gangs these days.
Currently, if you have a nanogang, you can jump in and MWD away. If the enemy doesn't have any anti-nanos, you will take few, if any, losses... disregardless of the size or disposition of the enemy.
Originally by: Commander Tigre Nobody said a nano gang was immune. It is on the other hand their choice whether or not to fight. All it takes is a rapier/huggin or curse/pilgram in a slower gang and all of a sudden that nano gang thinks real hard about fighting.
If you're roaming around someone else's space, why should you have any say as to whether or not you wish to fight?
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:33:00 -
[3029]
Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 01:33:02
Originally by: Internet Knight What is wrong with speedtanks that makes them broken? Simple: it is far easier to make your ship fast than it is to kill that fast ship. And that is what CCP is trying to fix... though perhaps they are being a bit heavy-handed with their fix.
If a 'fix' (or 'balance') creates more problems and breaks more things than it 'fixes', it is not a 'fix', it is a myopic nerf.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:34:00 -
[3030]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 01:33:02
Originally by: Internet Knight What is wrong with speedtanks that makes them broken? Simple: it is far easier to make your ship fast than it is to kill that fast ship. And that is what CCP is trying to fix... though perhaps they are being a bit heavy-handed with their fix.
If a 'fix' (or 'balance') creates more problems and breaks more things than it 'fixes', it is not a 'fix', it is a myopic nerf.
Thus why I said perhaps they're being a bit heavy-handed with it.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Chr0nosX
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:38:00 -
[3031]
Edited by: Chr0nosX on 29/07/2008 01:44:58 Edited by: Chr0nosX on 29/07/2008 01:39:16
Originally by: Internet Knight
Silly sillyness
So you think there shouldn't be roaming gangs into hostile space? If in a bc/c gang - w.e and you decide to fight most likely in hostile space you will most likely get blobbed as fighting - drake warps in, apoc warps in, falcon decloaks etc. I think nanos maybe need a change instead of lowering all speed why not just nerf the speed of some ships let mini still go fast, let inties still go fast. The problem with this change is it essentailly kills roaming gangs - eve has changed there are far more blobs when I started - 2006. I hated nano gangs so I trained for a rapier. It's my favourite ship. The vaga comes along attacking your battleship - decloak bam dead vaga.
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Delos Korelian
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:38:00 -
[3032]
Edited by: Delos Korelian on 29/07/2008 01:39:09 Didn't SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) killed the Starwars by trying to please the whiners and allow cookie-cutter Jedi crap?
I mean this is pretty much similar to that nerf. CCP, and a particular developer, buckling to bunch of whiners and are making the game more "regular" mmmo, where even the stupidest can survive. If this is the case, then forget it, make 0.0 small, increase Empire space, add L4 Agents to every station, remove .4 -.1 and lets all hold hands and sing something nice.
It takes skill and it takes allot of ISK to fit a really good speedy ship, we are talking billions upon billions in implants and in faction gear. Putting that on the line takes balls, and many people do it.
Vanilla nano ships can be killed quite easily, it has been evidenced on the forums by the same people who fly them, at the same time this is so detrimental to the game it is disgusting.
What I want to know is when did CCP Nozh joined the CCP, for how many years has he been playing the game before joining CCP, and if he came from EA or SOE to the CCP? Because, guys, if he came to you from SOE or EA, I would put my tinfoil hat on and say that this is an inside job to get you guys out of business, or make you loose a market share. (Text in Italics is a Joke, for the forum trolls)
Seriously the speed needs balancing, no questions asked, there are no arguments about it, even from those who love the NANO, including myself. It is the form that this "balancing" takes which surprises me. Such sweeping changes will imbalance the game further.
You will have to reevaluate the missiles, the sniper ships, the blaster boats, and the T2 ships. Because as things go, thats pretty much what this nerf affects" everything, in one way or another.
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Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:45:00 -
[3033]
Originally by: Chr0nosX Edited by: Chr0nosX on 29/07/2008 01:39:16
Originally by: Internet Knight
Silly sillyness
So you think there shouldn't be roaming gangs into hostile space? If in a bc/c gang - w.e and you decide to fight most likely in hostile space you will most likely get blobbed as fighting - drake warps in, apoc warps in, falcon decloaks etc. I think nanos maybe need a change instead of lowering all speed why not just nerf the speed of some ships let mini still go fast, let inties still go fast. The problem with this change is it essentailly kills roaming gangs - eve has changed there are far more blobs when I started - 2006. I hated nano gangs so I trained for a rapier. It's my favourite ships. The vaga comes along attacking your battleship - decloak bam dead vaga.
Your post doesn't make sense. You're attacking me without even reading what I said, you're attacking blobs, you're attacking nanos, you're supporting nanos, you're supporting blobs.
Be more consistent please.
--- How to resolve Singularity character syncing
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Chr0nosX
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:47:00 -
[3034]
Originally by: Internet Knight Your post doesn't make sense. You're attacking me without even reading what I said, you're attacking blobs, you're attacking nanos, you're supporting nanos, you're supporting blobs.
Be more consistent please.
Yes it does. I never supported blobs in my post I also showed that nanos need some change but the suggested is bad. I also showed nanos can be countered like in a rapier.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:59:00 -
[3035]
Anyone ANYONE who thinks that nano-ships are some kind of IWIN needs to look herder at the mechanics. Assuming we ignore the nano-ishtar, which is overpowered for a lot of different reasons.
A solo nano-ship can't do a damn thing. It just can't.
A vaga (the poster child of nanos) does like less than 200dps at fall off. What they hell can you kill doing 200dps ? Barges ? Haulers ?
A lone ratting BS is still probably not a viable target for one nano-ship. Sure you can shake the guy up a bit, but you won't kill him. Eventually you run out of ammo, or get bored, or make a mistake and you leave. Thats it.
Its only when theres a big blog of nano ships that people start getting ****y. And, looked at rationally, 3 or 4 ships of pretty much any kind can rip up any other single ship as long as its not too much bigger than them. So yeah ... Nano ships aren't 'IWIN' they are just 'IAMLESSLIKELYTOLOOSE'. Now thats a rather different thing to deal with. I agree to making them more vulnerable. Thats fine. It should be hard to be hard to kill.
People who say its unfair to be able to disengage once you start fighting .... Seriously... Have you NEVER disengaged ? Never docked up ? Never jumped out a gate rather than fight ? Never warped to a safespot then back to a station ? It should not just be a coin flip when you get into a fight. You need to be able to choose if you want to fight or not.
I totally don't agree with totally removing this facet from the game. We NEED ways to not just be rolling the dice everytime we fight. I mean, as much of the skill in eve is in fitting a ship as in flying it.
By the standard of anti-nano arguaments, damage fitted ships are unfair. The shout of 'OMG he killed me before i had a chance to shoot back NERFNERFNERFNERF' is JUST around the corner I swear.
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Arcane Carnage
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:08:00 -
[3036]
Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:11:17 Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:09:40 SRS POST
ok me and a corp m8, Goldsnake, have been testing now for what seems like more than long enough on the new sisi build. We tried alot of 1v1 setups and some gang ones with the help of lots of friends and randoms (props to you all).
However the most game breaking comparison we could find was as follows.
Arcane Carnage - Vagabond Goldsnake - Rifter (Tarnag - Claymore)
Vaga - High grade snake set - 4 bil shaquils speed enhancer - 800 mil Deadspace mwd - 500 mil T1 polycarbons - 75 mil faction other fittings 350 mil (2 gyro 1 nano od + point)
Rifter - no implants full t1 fitting (t2 guns) - 1.2mil
(I will not be telling you the setup incase this game ruining patch actually goes through)
Claymore - max skilled running 3 x gangmods + mindlink
vaga topspeed - 4.9km/s rifter topspeed - somthing less claymore - it could have been a station
(assume max spec skills all involved pilots)
ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga... -
Illuminati - Pathetic Legion
Ures truly kickin' ass Carn |
Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:17:00 -
[3037]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
You don't get it, because you don't fly nanogangs. Nanoships are extremely flimsy, low DPS ships. They can go about 3.5-5kms generally, and only the insane ones go above 10kms. This is not about saving the insane ones. Nerf em. But if you take a 3.5kms nanoship and reduce it to 2.5kms, it is dead meat. It costs 200-350m and it is dead meat. Any Tier 2 BC will be better to fly. Blobs will always win, even if they are ******edly stupid, since all they have to do is fly ravens and drakes and lob missiles. Even monkeys could do that. The only defence that exists against missiles is speed for a HAC, and now that gets nerfed they lose all reason to exist.
No dumbsh....I mean Draco, YOU dont get it!! CCP already told you and ALl your nano*** buddies that the overclocked speeds break their physics engine. So guess what, they are going to change it wether you fricking like it or not.
The sooner you understand that, the sooner you and your nano*** brothers can click the CANCEL on your accounts.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day!
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:32:00 -
[3038]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
You don't get it, because you don't fly nanogangs. Nanoships are extremely flimsy, low DPS ships. They can go about 3.5-5kms generally, and only the insane ones go above 10kms. This is not about saving the insane ones. Nerf em. But if you take a 3.5kms nanoship and reduce it to 2.5kms, it is dead meat. It costs 200-350m and it is dead meat. Any Tier 2 BC will be better to fly. Blobs will always win, even if they are ******edly stupid, since all they have to do is fly ravens and drakes and lob missiles. Even monkeys could do that. The only defence that exists against missiles is speed for a HAC, and now that gets nerfed they lose all reason to exist.
No dumbsh....I mean Draco, YOU dont get it!! CCP already told you and ALl your nano*** buddies that the overclocked speeds break their physics engine. So guess what, they are going to change it wether you fricking like it or not.
The sooner you understand that, the sooner you and your nano*** brothers can click the CANCEL on your accounts.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day!
And what you don't seem to understand is that nerfing everything dealing with speed is also not the answer. Ignorant posts like this don't help solve the problem.
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Battlecheese
Caldari Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:39:00 -
[3039]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
Clearly you have never flown a moa or Ferox? This is actualy what usually happens to a turret ship without shortrange guns.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:41:00 -
[3040]
Originally by: Battlecheese
Originally by: Arcane Carnage ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
Clearly you have never flown a moa or Ferox? This is actualy what usually happens to a turret ship without shortrange guns.
I can't tell you how many times I've been flyin' around with my alt's Vaga, thinking, 'god DAMN would i love this ship if it were more like a ferox.'
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:43:00 -
[3041]
Edited by: Markas Crais on 29/07/2008 02:43:17
Originally by: Battlecheese
Originally by: Arcane Carnage ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
Clearly you have never flown a moa or Ferox? This is actualy what usually happens to a turret ship without shortrange guns.
I think his point is that MWD is completely useless with the new scram feature and web nerf. Clearly, this is a turret nerf as well.
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Trilli Shaw
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:51:00 -
[3042]
First of all I would like to have some data from CCP
- How many people are in an active clone using high grade snakes?
- How many people have t2 speed rigs fitted to their ships?
- How many people have deadspace mwd's fitted to their ships and how many have t2 mwd fitted?
- How many speed tanking ships were killed (with/without podkill) in the last 3 months and what isk damage was inflicted?
- How many ships were killed by 'nano' ships in the last 3 months and what isk damage was inflicted?
- How many ships were killed by non-'nano' ships in the last 3 months and what isk damage was inflicted?
- At what point of speed is the current physics engine failing and cannot handle the game any more?
Surely CCP has all the numbers available and considered them before they made any decision to change the game in such a drastic way. So they only need to hand out those numbers.
Certainly they didn't base their game design decision on just forum/petition whines yelling 'bug bug! i cannot hit him!'. And when the devs on Sisi say that speed tanking is the most dominant style of play, then they can easily back up this statement by solid numbers, right?
Please give out some numbers CCP, especially those numbers above since you MUST have them considered before you planned such a big change in gameplay which is going to affect everyone and everything.
Thanks.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:53:00 -
[3043]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Anyone ANYONE who thinks that nano-ships are some kind of IWIN needs to look herder at the mechanics. Assuming we ignore the nano-ishtar, which is overpowered for a lot of different reasons.
Uh dunno. Vagas can kill nano ishtars (if pilot has a clue). Zealot will **** em. Heck even sacrilege can do this or solo huginn. All ships have their natural enemies and ishtar isnt excluded from this. In this case fast gunboats > nano ishtar.
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Velvet69
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:10:00 -
[3044]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:56 Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 28/07/2008 18:42:22 The people claiming the sky will fall really need to relax. A vast majority of people don't even take advantage of the speed thing. It will barely effect them except they will get ganked less.
It does suck for those who have spent a lot of coin on their nanoship hangar. I get that.
If everything is nerfed evenly you will still go faster than almost anything else and you will still have the advantage over most ships you currently gank in your nano ship (ie: T1's). You might not do 11,000ms anymore.. but realistically that was crazyness anyhow. Why would a big cruiser or worse, battleship, go faster and turn better than a built-for-speed interceptor?? that makes no sence.
The fix needs to be done.. but how exactly is certainly debateable.
You don't get it, because you don't fly nanogangs. Nanoships are extremely flimsy, low DPS ships. They can go about 3.5-5kms generally, and only the insane ones go above 10kms. This is not about saving the insane ones. Nerf em. But if you take a 3.5kms nanoship and reduce it to 2.5kms, it is dead meat. It costs 200-350m and it is dead meat. Any Tier 2 BC will be better to fly. Blobs will always win, even if they are ******edly stupid, since all they have to do is fly ravens and drakes and lob missiles. Even monkeys could do that. The only defence that exists against missiles is speed for a HAC, and now that gets nerfed they lose all reason to exist.
No dumbsh....I mean Draco, YOU dont get it!! CCP already told you and ALl your nano*** buddies that the overclocked speeds break their physics engine. So guess what, they are going to change it wether you fricking like it or not.
The sooner you understand that, the sooner you and your nano*** brothers can click the CANCEL on your accounts.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day!
And what you dont get , is that even after whatever changes are made to the nano ships , the people who fly them will still be good pvpers and you will still be shit.
Fly safe
o/ Velve
IXC Velvet69 Proud Member of 'The House of Prawn' |
Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:16:00 -
[3045]
Hahaha 117 pages? I don't think even the WCS nerf triggered such a whine!
Oh well, thanks CCP for having the guts to rebalance a system with obvious flaws from the very bottom. Where the earlier nano nerfs with adding stacking penalties were a step into the right direction, this one has the potential to balance the warfare ideals of the four races.
/me goes to sell all the stacked up alloyed trit bars
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:28:00 -
[3046]
Originally by: Disco Flint Hahaha 117 pages?....
...this one has the potential to balance the warfare ideals of the four races.
Listen to that man, he has obviously a clue!
And he really gave answer to at least 20 very specific question about non-nano ships which will be affected heavily by this nerf.
Bravo, I salute you ... not.
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:29:00 -
[3047]
Originally by: Disco Flint Hahaha 117 pages? I don't think even the WCS nerf triggered such a whine!
Oh well, thanks CCP for having the guts to rebalance a system with obvious flaws from the very bottom. Where the earlier nano nerfs with adding stacking penalties were a step into the right direction, this one has the potential to balance the warfare ideals of the four races.
/me goes to sell all the stacked up alloyed trit bars
A useless reply from someone who has not bothered to test anything on SiSi. God I love these people. </sarcasm>
Balance war ideals of the four races you say? Screws Minmatar speed-boats. Screws Gallente Blaster Boats. And gives Caldari an upper hand. Oh yes. Very balanced.
Personally, I think you're a ****ing idiot.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:53:00 -
[3048]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Anyone ANYONE who thinks that nano-ships are some kind of IWIN needs to look herder at the mechanics. Assuming we ignore the nano-ishtar, which is overpowered for a lot of different reasons.
Uh dunno. Vagas can kill nano ishtars (if pilot has a clue). Zealot will **** em. Heck even sacrilege can do this or solo huginn. All ships have their natural enemies and ishtar isnt excluded from this. In this case fast gunboats > nano ishtar.
Nono... you missed what i was trying to say. I wasn't saying the ishtar can't be killed by other nanos. Not at all. I was hinting towards the fact that it can achieve fast speed while doing its full amount of damage, and that this amount of damage is probably a lil too large even for a HAC. Context 4tw.
But you can kill an Ishtar's drones and then it has shit damage.
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Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:08:00 -
[3049]
I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp. But keep the bitter tears flowing, it amuses me
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catherda
Gallente Black Scorpion Navy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:11:00 -
[3050]
Come on people haven't you figured out by now. That ccp isn't even smart enough to replace servers that use gerbils and hamsters from 1966, let alone to figure it out to really even out the game they should of update turrets and guns who needed for a long time with better tracking and faster firing rates and give the bigger ships a little more speed. Noooo they aren't even smart enough to figure out what this kinda of mistake this is by actually using math. so I am gonna do it for them before patch 30,000 players *15.99 a month = the company just from players earns 479,700 a month. If this patch goes through and everyone who says they gonna leave just about 15000 players the company loses 254,700 a month. Leaving monthly profits of 225,000 monthly. now keep in mind this is rough estimate but Devs my suggestion . Pay attention what players say cause it might mean your behind being canned due to lay offs.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:14:00 -
[3051]
Originally by: Evil Pookie I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp. But keep the bitter tears flowing, it amuses me
Why would they read it? They wouldn't have made the code and put it on Sisi if they weren't intending to put it on Tranquility. Maybe with a slight figure change in one or two modules. I have never seen CCP roll out an announced patch on Sisi that didn't make it to Tranquility at least 90% the same as announced.
Buy lots of named webs and start trashing those polycarbons gentlemen.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:19:00 -
[3052]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Evil Pookie I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp. But keep the bitter tears flowing, it amuses me
Why would they read it? They wouldn't have made the code and put it on Sisi if they weren't intending to put it on Tranquility. Maybe with a slight figure change in one or two modules. I have never seen CCP roll out an announced patch on Sisi that didn't make it to Tranquility at least 90% the same as announced.
Buy lots of named webs and start trashing those polycarbons gentlemen.
It doesn't matter so much about the webs. They've been nerfed too much that they're not as effective as just putting a scram on to deactivate someone's MWD, unless they're using an AB, which is still a pretty bad mod.
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JSO Milic
JSO Intel
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:39:00 -
[3053]
Originally by: Tomic My first thoughts are that you fail on the final point made in the goals "Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic." With yet another speed nerf (already had two) you make guerrilla warfare less and less viable. The only thing that makes it possible for a small gang to fight a larger gang is the ability to "speed tank". In other words, the fact that missiles and drones can't hit you, and that larger ships have trouble hitting smaller ships at speed is the ONLY thing keeping you alive. If you take this away, all you will do is give every advantage to the blob. It seems to me that far from discouraging blob warfare, CCP actually seek to encourage it. Guess this is the end of the lag free fight :(
Blobs take time to assemble and they move slower, unlikely to catch a smaller guerrilla gang. The nerf should not effect these tactics as much as you think. It will increase your risk, but thats a fair trade off in preventing you from flying through enemy space at missile like speeds. |
JSO Milic
JSO Intel
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:44:00 -
[3054]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 25/07/2008 11:00:29yeah blastboats needed nerfing long live overpowered pulse geddons!
yeh well umm, like less then 10% of pvpers in 0.0 fly amarr ships so, what are you worried about |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:59:00 -
[3055]
The whining is strong in this thread. Especially amusing are all the Nano***s who think themselves as PvP-Pilots. Everyone who tried to avoid flying a Nanoship is a Carebear and should adapt or die, right?
Sorry Friends but I have fought long before Nano ever became a problem and I will still be here, after your favorite toy is removed.
Let's see who of you guys is really competent at PvP and who of you is just a one-trick-pony that is going to die horribly when flying anything other than Nano.
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Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:01:00 -
[3056]
Originally by: Evil Pookie I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp. But keep the bitter tears flowing, it amuses me
Its nice to see you back in Vale. And just a guess, but I bet this patch hurts when you sit down...
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:03:00 -
[3057]
Right, before I forget, here's my take of what I saw on SISI tonight.
1) Nanos got overnerfed. The only T2 Cruiser or BC that was able to get up to the 3-3.5km/s mark was the Vagabond from what we saw, everything else only reached around 2.1-2.5. Non-Vagabonds are very vulnerable to missiles and turrets alike, and its like you're flying something made of paper that has a machine gun firing at it, making no sense to nano them. Similarly, Vagas weren't that great either, with PulsApocs getting about a 50% hit ratio at their full transversal under the BS's optimal - missiles had the potential to do serious damage.
2) Falcons, Nighthawks, and Apocalypses are all very good. One of our EW pilots ran the numbers, and it would take a tackler a good minute to run him down from 200km range, while he's jamming almost with impunity. Only sniper-fit BSes or Eagles really stand a chance at doing damage against them, and its pretty difficult so long as they can utilize the "decloak, jam, recloak" technique to their advantage.
The latter two ships are great against sub-BC targets, be they T1 or T2. The Nighthawk's precision bonus makes it swat very hard against these types, rendering Vagabonds into scrap metal in short order - in addition, as mentioned above the Apocs are also quite powerful. Of special note is the fact that with this patch, CCP seems to have created a perfect storm, by reducing nanos and therefore their associated transversal, while a while back boosting pulse's tracking to a nice level. Not only can a PulseApoc do serious damage with a short-range setup, competitive with its BS rivals, it can load Scorch and dominate the mid-range, where nanos now can't get up to a sufficient speed to evade fire on a consistent basis.
3) Webs suck. This does allow for some potential by frigates and small ships to get under the guns a bit, but makes the BS a less viable option solo or without significant support. One unfortunate note is that it does encourage tight formations, where multiple webs from other BSes can be applied to slow it down enough to be killed. Hyenas are also suffering from this, with only 1 or 2 webs at their disposal.
4) RR BS gangs are still quite effective. Myself and two others tanked a hefty amount of firepower with the assistance of a Falcon for the better part of 5-10 minutes before loosing our first ship. I do see these more as a lowsec option, as being slow and immobile is more tolerable when stations are everywhere, bubbles aren't deployable, and there aren't a ton of locals out for your blood - in 0.0, that's a different story, and raises the number of people necessary in a gang to high levels.
Didn't get around to trying out the 7.5km scram yet, I'll try and think about it tomorrow. That being said though, seriously, the test server is not a reflection of what you would see in game. Unless the devs take the initiative and contact corps to try and test a variety of scenarios out, I don't think any real information of value will be obtained. FFA1 can give decent information regarding first-order effects, like what ships are powerful and not, tactics that need to be weakened and the like, but it doesn't really factor in tactics, terrain, or obstacles that are found "out there".
Click me! You know you want to... |
TheAdj
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:14:00 -
[3058]
Something that seems to have slipped under the radar here is the ridiculous nerf to officer webs. What the christ, was this seriously necessary? 25/30km 75% webs weren't super amazing before, and I really don't enjoy the range on my module I paid good money for cut in half for shits and giggles, it's not like a lot of them were being used to begin with :/ ----------------
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Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:05:00 -
[3059]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:11:17 Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:09:40 SRS POST
ok me and a corp m8, Goldsnake, have been testing now for what seems like more than long enough on the new sisi build. We tried alot of 1v1 setups and some gang ones with the help of lots of friends and randoms (props to you all).
However the most game breaking comparison we could find was as follows.
Arcane Carnage - Vagabond Goldsnake - Rifter (Tarnag - Claymore)
Vaga - High grade snake set - 4 bil shaquils speed enhancer - 800 mil Deadspace mwd - 500 mil T1 polycarbons - 75 mil faction other fittings 350 mil (2 gyro 1 nano od + point)
Rifter - no implants full t1 fitting (t2 guns) - 1.2mil
(I will not be telling you the setup incase this game ruining patch actually goes through)
Claymore - max skilled running 3 x gangmods + mindlink
vaga topspeed - 4.9km/s rifter topspeed - somthing less claymore - it could have been a station
(assume max spec skills all involved pilots)
ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
If you have time Fraps it stick it on the forums adn see if CCP can explain it.
P
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Antiequilibrium
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:09:00 -
[3060]
First of all, I haven't read this entire thread (120 something pages, yeah right) so excuse me if I'm repeating what has already been said a hundred times. But holy ****ing over-the-top gameplay changes, Batman! Seems like a case of the minority ruining it for the majority here. I could probably count on one hand the number of pilots who fly around 0.0 space with a head full of HG Snakes/T2 Polycarbs/Deadspace MWDs etc.
Some of the proposed changes seem fair, I think most could agree that even T1 Polycarbs are slightly imbalanced atm. But a lot of the changes seem like massive overkill to me. It's like CCP is only seeing in black and white. I really hope the devs are actually reading some of the responses in this thread, there have been some quality points made (for and against!). It seems crazy to implement a change of this scale to a game that is over 5 years old! Out with the massive nerfs (and ****ing off thousands of subscribers) and in with the boosts!
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Gods Coldblood
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:18:00 -
[3061]
Does anyone here know how the Megathron with blasters is affected by this change? ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Anxiety |
Olea Avenger
Gallente BigMek Industries GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:29:00 -
[3062]
Edited by: Olea Avenger on 29/07/2008 06:30:54 As a long time Gallente. I'm actually not in favor of the changes as they stand. I ran some tests with blaster ships and recons tonight and after that I have the following comments. I also have a Caldari pilot, a Minmatar pilot (who I also tested using similar setups as to what I was using for Gallente), and my Gallente is cross training to Amarr.
1. Over abundance of speed was a problem. However, hitting everything was a terrible idea. The better idea would have been to nerf the module combinations that allow the over abundance of speed through stacking penalties. Primarily implants and rigs.
2. Webs: Webs were only really overpowered on Minmatar recons. They range was too short on other races ships to ever be a problem if you could dictate your range with speed. What we needed was a web that at 10KM did full speed reduction and at 25KM only offered about 10% or a point I make in my next talking point.
3. Close range setups: I usually had trouble getting in range of nano ships because I couldn't slow them down. I still have this problem using all of the 3 turrets cause I'm slowed down just as much as they are. The only way I used to have a chance was through nos/neuts to kill their mwd and then I could mwd over too them. However, this only worked when using a BS because of the range. It did not work with smaller craft, because I couldn't get into the max range for nos/neuts. If all nos/neuts had their range extended and maybe the curse lowered, it wouldn't be so bad. The curse is the one cruiser whose NOS can reach out and kill an MWD.
4. Long range setups: Hard to stay at an optimal range again because once again speed ships could tighten up or outspeed my guns. The nerf helps this very little. Smaller guns lose their range too quickly to do damage and couldn't track to begin with. Now the tracking problem is somewhat fixed (if I use the smallest weapon type), however, the range issue is still off. Fitting medium guns proved that I couldn't track much of anything and still do significant damage if they were mwding.
5. The scram new role: This would have been nice, except it is to short to turn off an mwd on the ships that could abuse it most and by the time I'm in range my mwd is off from them also having a scram. I kept trying to kill my speed and move away out of range so I could pulse into them again. Unfortunatly, they also got their MWD again to keep range. So this lead me to trying the AB. This worked great as long as the enemy was either not paying attention to his range or was packing an AB also. I took me forever to get into blaster range. A faster AB ship proved impossible to catch without using an MWD unless I have a web. The web / scram range difference isn't enough to keep him webbed while I MWD back up to him. So, then we were back to the MWD scram problem.
6. The drone boats. The Dominix still does what it does. The Ishtar is more likely to take a Dominix role of sitting like a brick. It's heavy drones still allow it to put a world of hurt on a short range cruiser (Deimos/Muninn/Hurricane, etc). I guess it can no longer speed tank and now has to commit to a fight. Not bad, but it still can put the smack down in a fight on the Deimos by keeping just enough range that the heavy drones do more damage then my blasters can dish out. The pilgrim is still what it was. The curse can still dictate its range enough to keep my DPS down to manageable levels / cap me out if I go MWD instead of a cap injector. You can figure out the other drone boats.
So even with the changes I see very little change to speed > other options for the exception that missiles are awesome now. What we needed was more modules to help stop range dictation being a total winner. Making a scram useful was a good idea, but it needs more range. Same thing for nos/neuts of all sizes. This would have pretty much killed the speed > other options without having to resort to Minmatar recons.
Sign up for the campaign against Angel ratts today. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:35:00 -
[3063]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage
ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die.
2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
HACs were never meant to be anti-frigate platforms. Just because you threw lots of ISK into something dosen't mean it should automatically win against a cheaper ship.
Now just imagine the things a Vaga could do to a BS with the nerf to webs? ...
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Mymh Heretache
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:36:00 -
[3064]
Edited by: Mymh Heretache on 29/07/2008 06:44:17 Couple of things springs to mind;
The good: * It's nice to see CCP's intentions and thoughts, that gives an idea of how they want to perceive things (outrunning missile/drones is too fast). * Finally looks like the AB might be something to not only be used on NPCing ships and Rifters. Last time I had one on a PvP ship must've been my Pilgrims pre-nos-nerf..
The bad: * It looks like CCP seems to think that "numbers > all". I have no big love for PL, and their tears in this thread taste quite sweet, but they got a big point when they bring this up. Their way of fighting with sniping speedy HACs is one of few ways to fight a superior sized fleet in hostile homeland. - That's the key part, you can pick apart fleets that travel by utilizing dictors/bubbles/recons by some careful timing, but if you attack hostiles in their cynojammed homelands.. the PL way of fighting is the only real valid way to strike a greater blob, without blobbing back. [I'm saying the "PL way", might very well be others that use this tactic and/or have done it before them.. I just havn't seen others fight that way]
The ugly: * We've yet to see how this affects blasters, could be good, could be bad, could turn out to be.. real ugly. * Interceptor gangs should still be very viable for roams, but unlike the HAC-roams they lack range/firepower to take on bigger ships. These gangs can turn out to be very popular/useful (again), or.. they'll be outblobbed. We'll see. * I'll miss my nano-sac!
All in all I'm quite happy CCP at least declare their intentions, it makes it alot easier to browse through all the crying on these forums to find the constructive and relevant posts with some substance.
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Uncle Mo
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:47:00 -
[3065]
Warp to zero will ruin the game!!!!!
Wait, what? --------------------------------------------- Official US ambassador to the UK.
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:58:00 -
[3066]
man, some of the posters in this thread are seriously foaming at the mouth
is it really worth it, to get so aggravated over changes to a game ?
anyway, those threatening to quit won't quit because they're addicted
in the end, you'll play the game and enjoy it, cuz it's still internet spaceships
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:17:00 -
[3067]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Right, before I forget, here's my take of what I saw on SISI tonight.
Had some good fights there I think (Much <3)
Agree with all of your points - the only way we managed to beat a falcon was to manage to cycle jam it with a scorp fast enough so a tempest could force it to warp out.... still didn't kill it though ---
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:47:00 -
[3068]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 29/07/2008 07:51:39 despite some changes being more good and some not so good, making such drasting changes will result in a big wave of whines it feels like CCP is a group of sadists loving to see people crying
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:01:00 -
[3069]
Originally by: Evil Pookie I think its safe to assume at this point that noone is reading this thread. Especially not anyone from ccp.
This happened 118 pages ago |
Temp Boi
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:10:00 -
[3070]
Oh this is just ****ing brilliant CCP, well done. You've ****ed me up the ass for a 5 billion isk nanomach and another 5 billion isk speed clone, not to mention the millions of wasted skillpoints.
You truly don't understand it; your approach to "fixing" the game revolves around satisfying the whining victims' of experienced pvpers every whim. You simply find something that is an effective means to kill someone IN THE RIGHT HANDS, and remove it from the game. Those who can't adapt win, because if you actually can adapt to the point where you excel, you get nerfed.
"Ludicrous speed" I believe was the term used in the dev blog. Well CCP, ludicrous speed is relative; a 4km/s standard nano ishtar compared to a triple plated fleet battleship, even then, not really. Oh right, it's those guys farming kills in their 15km/s nano machariels. Sure, that's ludicrous speed.... at the price of about 10 billion ISK, but everyone can afford that right? That's what you'd either like us to believe, or maybe you truly are clueless as a company. You act like this is an epidemic; like every average joe can step into a domination vaga with a full highgrade snake set right off the bat. The fact is, "ludicrous speed" is only truly attainable with vast quantities of isk, and these overpowered super-nano battleships and hacs are not overpowered, but they are powerful; I sure ****ing hope they'd be after dropping multiple billions on setups and implants. What if I complained about "ludicrous tanking"? I think that a HG crystalled golem with a full estamel's setup and t2 rigs with a max skilled vulture in gang that tanks 30k dps is overpowered- it's the EXACT SAME ARGUEMENT. But no, no one complains about those.
The truth here is that this "speed problem" is a fabrication, an illusion, created by those who are inexperienced at pvp, and/or can't/refuse to adapt to a play style they fall victim to. THEY are the true epidemic; and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can reverse this game's ever apparent downward spiral into mediocrity.
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Togg Bott
Minmatar 801
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:13:00 -
[3071]
seriously over the top nerf... guess it time to train caldari...not like there are many of them out there.
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jk scowling
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:21:00 -
[3072]
we fear change
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Evil Edna
Seal Cub Clubbing Club
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:22:00 -
[3073]
Originally by: Hehulk
Originally by: CCP Atropos
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh [ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really [ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting [ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed [ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really
So, when can we expect the sniper BS nerf? Since those are the defacto for fleet warfare. Or the dread nerf? damn things are always used in POS warfare and it's ****ing me right the hell off. Hot droping black ops ftw tbqfh.
quoting this
ifni joins ccp and the incompetence rubs off on him
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Rupert VonDraken
Shade.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:33:00 -
[3074]
WTH CCP??
Noone will disagree with you that "ludicrous speed" was exactly that... however, you seem to have listened to the one group of people who are least qualified to comment about speed employment in PvP - namely empire carebears...
As such, I have the following questions (not expecting an answer, however, c'est la guerre) 1. What is ridiculous about a rapier doing 3000m/s? Minimal shields, average resists, low DPS - the only way to kill anything bigger than a frigate was to agility tank their damage and wear them down (proviiding plenty of opportunities for a reinforcement gang, from either side to appear)
2. With the proposed speed reduction, why is a character who has trained missiles for 1 month just as effective as a player who has specialised on navigation for 6 months or more.
Overall.... why have you listened to players who cannot fathom why their belt-ratting BS died to a specialised pvp ship???
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:19:00 -
[3075]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe CCP have effectively killed small gang/solo PvP in EVE if even half of these changes go though.
Glad to see the company that stands firm hasn't caved to uneducated whines yet again.
Solo and small scale PvP existed before, during and will continue after the changes.
You've all just lost your way with the current fixation on speed. I've flown the same ship for 3 years (Blasterthon) and will continue to do so.
--------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Gamesguy
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:22:00 -
[3076]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Okay, I was trying to let this pass and hope you got tired of this line you keep repeating... but apparently not.
In our alliance controlled space there is an alternate route leading to another region, and often opening a path to another area of our own controlled space, ever 2 systems on average.
Some of the routes go to other area's of space, some loop back in to our space at a distant point, most do both. That would be over a half dozen alternate paths you can take just off the main pipe. We won't talk about the other exit that takes you into large but dead end areas where a small gang can play endless games of tag with larger fleets... ignoring the choke points completely while locking down the stations and outposts in a sizable area (although in all honesty that is an unnecessary path to take, considering all of the better options for going in and out of our space)
Jump bridges can only do so much my friend, and small gangs can operate effectively, with moderate risk. There is nothing in the proposed patch that changes this, and this is acceptable to most folks I think.
Our area of space is far from uncommon.
So while in theory you make a valid point, in reality locking down an average area of 0.0 is not so easy, nor will it be. Another justification is going to have to be conjured up I'm afraid.
Oh bullcrap, you're lying through your teeth.
I was i tri, our favorite game was raiding your space. There is maybe 3-4 pipes out of your space. And you have jump bridges/cyno jammers on all those pipes.
Not only that but you keep a bunch of carriers and titans permenently logged off in your empire chokepoint along with multiple large bubbles on the gate. The other empire entrances are all 30+ jumps away. You hotdrop titans and carrier on 10 man roaming gangs inside cyno jammed systems liberally.
Everytime we took a BS gang to your space we ended up getting hotdropped by 10+ carriers, nanoships were the only way to feasibly roam your space without dying horribly. We did eventually counter hotdrop one of your carrier hotdrops when you got careless and did it outside a cyno jammer system though.
So stop pretending small gangs get anywhere against alliances that have cyno jammers and bridges in every system along with a massive capfleet(including titans) they like to hotdrop on 5 man gangs. Nanos were the only way we could do it. And with it nerfed, there's basically frig gangs or cloaky recons and thats it.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:31:00 -
[3077]
I quite like these changes.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Artemis
Xenobytes Stain Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:40:00 -
[3078]
zealot 12,580,000 kg vagabond 11,590,000 kg deimos 11,460,000 kg ishtar 11,100,000 kg
where is logic? (and compare visual size...)
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Crellion
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:54:00 -
[3079]
Originally by: Artemis zealot 12,580,000 kg vagabond 11,590,000 kg deimos 11,460,000 kg ishtar 11,100,000 kg
where is logic? (and compare visual size...)
I think this particular statistical set is ridiculous. I say this having 10x more kills with an Ishtar than I have with a Vagabond... I guess now it will become 100x.
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
5h4dy
Caeco Dominus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 09:55:00 -
[3080]
Edited by: 5h4dy on 29/07/2008 09:55:43 The changes are way over the top, the only ships the needed alittle nerfing were the ones going 10km/s and everyone new this. With this patch you effectivily destroy an entire way of playing, if people are unsure how to counter nano ships you need to ask cva for some advice because ive seen how these guy do it first hand and they are the best ppl ive flown against at countering nano ships.
To many people dont realise that 50 crap ships thrown together with poor fcing should lose to 20 highly skilled nano pilots, its not the nano pilots fault that people cant be bothered to think of effective counters to nano gangs. Missiles are going to be the only real weapon system worth using soon, they have good range, never miss and with this patch will be able to hit all nano ships, why bother with turrets?
Also the fact that ccp are basing this nerf from ships that have billions invested in them is proof enough that they are realy clutching at straws when it comes to balancing speed, If people invest that amount of isk into a ship they deserve the edge they are getting and it adds somthing to the game. Also how many of us actualy come across that many HACS that go over 4k/ms other than the vaga, i know i dont and when i do i know if i kill that ship im hurting that pilot very hard.
The webs changes along side the speed nerfs just seem like the final nail in the coffin for the minmatar race, 2 of the races top ships drop to near the bottom of there respective classes the rapier/huggin and the vaga. The phoon will stil be solid but the pest becomes even more of a joke than it already is, especialy since they have slowed it down even more.
One thing about eve is its a very big place, and involves alot of traveling, these changes are going to have such a dramatic affect on pvp that it may become gamebreaking, cloaks and ew will become the new way to pvp, smal gangs will not be as affective and will dramaticly decrease, people will get bored, blobs will take over, the servers will die because ccp cant even provide us with servers that can handle large numbers but are constantly pushing us into that style of play. If i did my job as bad as some of the guys at ccp are, i would be sacked, to have such a total lack of disregard for your customers is unbelievable.
And before anyone flames me for being just another nano *****, i only fly caldari ships and never fit speed mods, so this change doesnt affect me.
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eXeGee
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:17:00 -
[3081]
i did some testing on sisi
my conslusions: - gunboats suffer greatly because of this changes - missileboats are going to be top ships - solo piracy will be probably harder now, as mwd reuse prevents you to tackle well enough, and web nerf allows more easy escapes - scrambling ab frig is able to destroy turret cruiser with mwd, while missileboat cruiser will **** the frig - inties will be more important - arazu takes rapier/huginn function as well - nano will still be around (missile and maybe drone one), but as form of perma mwding and not gunboats ships (dont know how is zealot, it's turret but quite different from blasters/acs far better optimal, it may still work) - turrets suffer greatly from perma running mwd (effective tracking), and turning it off can be too risky/deadly.
anyway its - take from minmatars (gallentes), give to caldari and amarrs
probably new nano gangs, bunch of inties, sacris, cerbs, maybe arazu,rapier,ishtar as well
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:18:00 -
[3082]
Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
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Kwa Kaine
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:19:00 -
[3083]
I anticipate the nerf to blob warfare, capitals online and POS warfare eagerly.
Because when something becomes the de facto way of fighting it needs to be nerfed.
Eh ifni?
EVE Online Customer Support <- It would be nice if this actually existed.
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:22:00 -
[3084]
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Drive off, yes. Kill, no. They have option to run at any time.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:47:00 -
[3085]
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure. ...
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:48:00 -
[3086]
Originally by: Redback911
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Drive off, yes. Kill, no. They have option to run at any time.
Step 1 to killing a nano is preventing them running
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Pesadel0
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:50:00 -
[3087]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
So that means tha me in a hurricane will pop that vaga too,brb gonna test this out. ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:51:00 -
[3088]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
No, see, after this patch, the Drake is the anti-everything platform.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:56:00 -
[3089]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
No, see, after this patch, the Drake is the anti-everything platform.
Yes because the drake is so good ship. have such a firepower and tank together in 1 setup that can kill any other BC too
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:59:00 -
[3090]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 11:02:16
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ? We need stacking for Shield extenders , shield rigs for Caldari, same like the speed modules. Thats would be real.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:06:00 -
[3091]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 11:02:16
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ? We need stacking for Shield extenders , shield rigs for Caldari, same like the speed modules. Thats would be real.
NERF EVERYTHING. WTF KILLERNOOBSHIPS!!!!
Idiots like u are the reason this terrible nerf too. the drake is ok as it is. it can tank or have some dps, but not both. As was ok the normal nanohacs too. The only broken staff was BS sized ships and some cruisers going over 10k, but for this was a lot of bil needed. Is a terrible change. And pls stop calling nerf on everything what u cant kill if u dont use your brain
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:11:00 -
[3092]
Originally by: Serret
Originally by: Mr Rive
I MEAN SERIOUSLY... 5 hours, with 5 devs, and you think you can just ruin what some people have spent 100's of hours on working setups out, perfecting them, and spending umpteen billions developing? GG CCP
I guess the moral of the story is, get your setup right in the first 5 hours and move on, go outside, have a beer, something.... ?!?
You will make an excellent manager of software developers... Cause obviously those 5 hours were all the time they ever spent thinking, reading suggestions, and coming up with the best solution they could think of.
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Propolis
Gallente The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:13:00 -
[3093]
Edited by: Propolis on 29/07/2008 11:13:47 I would just like to say a few things:
1) The idiot who came up with these changes is r3t4rded. (l33t speak for filter)
2) I have seen unpaid subscibers to the game YOU DESIGNED have better ideas time and time again to make YOUR game better whilst 80% of your ideas so far are fail.
Thanks :)
Hugz and Kissez.
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Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:18:00 -
[3094]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
No, see, after this patch, the Drake is the anti-everything platform.
Yes because the drake is so good ship. have such a firepower and tank together in 1 setup that can kill any other BC too
I think 550 dps and 100,000 EHP fits the bill, thats with mwd and point
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
5h4dy
Caeco Dominus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 11:20:00 -
[3095]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
No, see, after this patch, the Drake is the anti-everything platform.
Yes because the drake is so good ship. have such a firepower and tank together in 1 setup that can kill any other BC too
Actualy seen as the entire speed nerf is based on investing billions of isk into a ship, you could invest maybe not even 2bil in a drake and get a ship that tanks 1200dps, 1600dps when overheated and at the same time deals around 420 dps and 460+dps including drones and overheating, that seems way to much for a single bc to do on its own so using the same logic as what has been used for the speed nerf surely passive shield tank on the drake needs nerfing. I understand not everyone can invest 2billion isk into a drake but theres no way most 95% of people can afford to invest 4 billion+ isk into a nano ship to produce the silly speeds the CCP is basing this entire nerf on.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:21:00 -
[3096]
you can now take a bc instead of hac, more tank/dps and cheaper! hey how about removing a bonus of all hacs and replace it with one that is build in already
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:23:00 -
[3097]
i think there is a very simple solution. Dont nerf everything thats way to complicated. Do what they do in real life. if a vehicle is to fast like for instance motorcycles were in 2002 agreed to be governed at over 187mph while they can go faster they are governed. The simple solution here is govern the ships ie, if a ship goes to fast the computers will say no u cant go that fast as it will rattle apart.
For hitting nano ships. Thats easy too increas there sig radius so much at those speeds that they cannot dodge missles and still get hit with less tracking becasue its like hitting a planet. The only thing i think is well done is the scrambler shutting off the mwd. Because this give this useless module a new life.
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R3ign
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:24:00 -
[3098]
Edited by: R3ign on 29/07/2008 11:24:44
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
No, see, after this patch, the Drake is the anti-everything platform.
DRAKE ONLINE
May god have mercy upon us.
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 11:25:00 -
[3099]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 11:02:16
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ? We need stacking for Shield extenders , shield rigs for Caldari, same like the speed modules. Thats would be real.
NERF EVERYTHING. WTF KILLERNOOBSHIPS!!!!
Idiots like u are the reason this terrible nerf too....
Not, Idiots like u are the reason this nerfs, who say it, this patch is fine, spamming missile for everyone. The stupid no brain users who cant anything just hit F1-F8 button. Passive tank realy good u say, lol seems like u cant use the armor reps or shield booster. Bravo brainless pilots.Your ****ing idiotic ideas killing the game balance, and make it blob and lag.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:29:00 -
[3100]
My Experience in Sissi:
I jumped to my Zealot and flow directly to BC arena where I saw 3 Vagas being vaporized. I was flying a tank setup and continue to pop easaly the nano setups apearing on the arena.
Time passed and few minutes later, the supposed "nano ships" started to apear and tanking my damage, people started to fly diferente setups, slower but way more effective in terms of damage/tank... Yes, pilots started to adapt...
________________ God is my Wingman |
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:30:00 -
[3101]
Edited by: Damned Force on 29/07/2008 11:31:56
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 11:02:16
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ? We need stacking for Shield extenders , shield rigs for Caldari, same like the speed modules. Thats would be real.
NERF EVERYTHING. WTF KILLERNOOBSHIPS!!!!
Idiots like u are the reason this terrible nerf too....
Not, Idiots like u are the reason this nerfs, who say it, this patch is fine, spamming missile for everyone. The stupid no brain users who cant anything just hit F1-F8 button. Passive tank realy good u say, lol seems like u cant use the armor reps or shield booster. Bravo brainless pilots.Your ****ing idiotic ideas killing the game balance, and make it blob and lag.
U ass if u would read what i wrote u would realise im against this speednerf. I just tried to tell u that to whining for another nerf is not a solution
Is a terrible nerf. it kills the last possibility to go trough enemy space and kill something with small gang. After this nerf it would count just how many ships u get together in the fleet and nothing else.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:33:00 -
[3102]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 11:02:16
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Cutesmile Test on Sisi. A half skilled Drake blowing up a Vaga very fast. LOL 35millio isk 10m sp vs 200m isk and 30m sp Very logic. Fck up CCP
Drake is an anti-cruiser platform
You were in a cruiser
go figure.
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ? We need stacking for Shield extenders , shield rigs for Caldari, same like the speed modules. Thats would be real.
NERF EVERYTHING. WTF KILLERNOOBSHIPS!!!!
Idiots like u are the reason this terrible nerf too....
Not, Idiots like u are the reason this nerfs, who say it, this patch is fine, spamming missile for everyone. The stupid no brain users who cant anything just hit F1-F8 button. Passive tank realy good u say, lol seems like u cant use the armor reps or shield booster. Bravo brainless pilots.Your ****ing idiotic ideas killing the game balance, and make it blob and lag.
Ok so yeah... I tested this on sisi i cant say im happy tanked the vaga what crap :( missile spam FTW dont get me wrong i fly caldari too but as is Minm ships suck the only thing we had on our side was speed we are already out gunned and out tanked now the race compeletly sucks and its the hardest to train... you have effectivly killed the Vaga GJ CCP I'm just gonna sell it maybe I,ll just finish training caldari as all this game is for is all the ******ed noobs who wanna go straight to BS and not train..........
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Sorted
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 11:34:00 -
[3103]
/me Boos loudly at ccp. again.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:40:00 -
[3104]
There is no need for nanonerf. If u had the toys u was able to kill them or make them run. And even if peoples think nanos need a nerf, there was some nice ideas on the forums. Devs should not make 5h brainstormings if they come up which such sux ideas. Just adapt what the playerbase think is good. The most pvpers here know much more about this game then devs, so why not listen on them?
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:42:00 -
[3105]
Originally by: Demus DaVet
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
HACs were never meant to be anti-frigate platforms. Just because you threw lots of ISK into something dosen't mean it should automatically win against a cheaper ship.
Now just imagine the things a Vaga could do to a BS with the nerf to webs?
Please don't post unless you know what you're talking about.
But okay, I'll imagine.
Let's take the off-chance that the BS pilot doesn't have a heavy neut fitted and the Vaga pilot is stupid enough to orbit at 20km with a point on the BS (there is no use to try and manually fly cause of the gimped agility). Yes, I do believe the Vaga pilot will be clever enough to stay out of web range at the "ludicrous" speed of 3,5km for a whole 1,5 minutes before his cap runs out.
I am theorizing that the stupid BS pilot would know enough to fly solo with short range weapons even though he never thought of packing a neut.
Now, during that 1,5 minutes the Vaga puts the ultimate hurt on the BS averaging 150-200 dps. On the other hand, the BS if it's a Amarr it will simply melt the vaga in about 20-30 secs. If it's a Raven it will simply blow it up in less than that. If it a Megathron, with Null ammo it will down the Vaga in about 8 volleys. Well, maybe a Tempest or Maelstrom might have a little problem with our new uber-Vaga put I never use a setup on those without a tracking computer so it's about the same with the Megathron. A Typhoon would of course cream the Vaga.
So.... if the Vaga's role isn't to kill light ships, it also isn't to kill BS - no problem with that. They certainly can't kill BCs. They can't even tackle anymore since trying to tackle with 3,5km/s and lock with the Vaga's scan res is not feasible.
Would you please tell us what exactly is the new Vaga supposed to kill - or do ? Since it is outclassed by every other faction's HAC, just like the gunboat Munnin.
AMen to this, and im an amarr pilot. But i love my minnie ships :)
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Zarathushtra
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:43:00 -
[3106]
To balance something why do u need to take away things that many hold dear. I mean really how hard is it to see that speed doesnt give you any advantage in the end.
People fly fast ship cause its fun. U can counter Vagas and stuff with Recons and neuting BS. How is it balanced when u counter everything with a drake?
I cant understand who got the idea that something is wrong with the current game mechanics. What does it matter if your mission running CNR cant hit crows? Is it really unbalanced if 2 bil Machariel can outran u but throw a web in there and boom there goes 2 bil.
And why o why does the AB need to be a viable option?
Well lets shoot missiles and fly Ravens then.
Great day to be Minmatar.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:44:00 -
[3107]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 29/07/2008 11:47:14 http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
guess what i will train (it have cheaper rigs, never miss, works vs every ship after narf,have more dps, have more ehp, tanks more)
forgot about lower sp investement
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:46:00 -
[3108]
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Originally by: Temp Boi Oh this is just ****ing brilliant CCP, well done. You've ****ed me up the ass for a 5 billion isk nanomach and another 5 billion isk speed clone, not to mention the millions of wasted skillpoints.
You truly don't understand it; your approach to "fixing" the game revolves around satisfying the whining victims' of experienced pvpers every whim. You simply find something that is an effective means to kill someone IN THE RIGHT HANDS, and remove it from the game. Those who can't adapt win, because if you actually can adapt to the point where you excel, you get nerfed.
"Ludicrous speed" I believe was the term used in the dev blog. Well CCP, ludicrous speed is relative; a 4km/s standard nano ishtar compared to a triple plated fleet battleship, even then, not really. Oh right, it's those guys farming kills in their 15km/s nano machariels. Sure, that's ludicrous speed.... at the price of about 10 billion ISK, but everyone can afford that right? That's what you'd either like us to believe, or maybe you truly are clueless as a company. You act like this is an epidemic; like every average joe can step into a domination vaga with a full highgrade snake set right off the bat. The fact is, "ludicrous speed" is only truly attainable with vast quantities of isk, and these overpowered super-nano battleships and hacs are not overpowered, but they are powerful; I sure ****ing hope they'd be after dropping multiple billions on setups and implants. What if I complained about "ludicrous tanking"? I think that a HG crystalled golem with a full estamel's setup and t2 rigs with a max skilled vulture in gang that tanks 30k dps is overpowered- it's the EXACT SAME ARGUEMENT. But no, no one complains about those.
The truth here is that this "speed problem" is a fabrication, an illusion, created by those who are inexperienced at pvp, and/or can't/refuse to adapt to a play style they fall victim to. THEY are the true epidemic; and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can reverse this game's ever apparent downward spiral into mediocrity.
Give this man a cookie.
Ban CCP.
i concur, i used to hate nano ships and i realised that i was not adapting and when i did i learned they are not the problem my inexperience was the problem. Now i stand saying tanks are great and nanos are great.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:49:00 -
[3109]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 29/07/2008 12:01:07 I like these changes.
Battlecruiser are heavily armed cruisers that are designed to combat other cruisers, while avoiding even heavier but slower ships.
That being said, comparing ships 1:1 is always flawed because the reality is, that PvP is teamwork. Yes I know some Nanopilots are now screaming: Blob!, but the reality is, that Nanoships already travel in groups. The Vagabond will still be much faster then the Drake, so it will still have the choice to disengage, when it took to much damage.
Please do not tell me, that a gang of roaming Vagas can no longer kill a lone drake, ratting in some system, because they will still be able too. Maybe even faster then before because, of new incentives to fit a damagemod or two, instead of all lowslots with overdrives, inertia stabs and nanofibers.
Roaming Gangs did exist long before Nano-ships became the flavor of the year and I will predict they will still exist after Nano has been nerfed.
Blasterships might be in a better shape then before, because right now, a Blastership has become a rarity but after the nerf we will see much more BS with close range weapons, to deal to with the Drake Plague.
As an Ex-Vagabond Pilot and skilled Gallente BlasterBS, as well as an Amarr Pulselaser BS Pilot and Minmatar Autocannon BS Pilot, I welcome these changes. I think will have fun again.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:50:00 -
[3110]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Blasterships might be in a better shape then before
You've obviously not tried things on Sisi, at all.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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Granmethedon III
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:52:00 -
[3111]
Edited by: Granmethedon III on 29/07/2008 11:52:42
Originally by: Zarathushtra To balance something why do u need to take away things that many hold dear.
Exactly. Balance can be introduced without bringing out the nerfbat everytime.
If the problem is that its impossible to hit extremely fast ships, look at inroducing weapons that can. Someone suggested scripted webs earlier, something along the lines of range versus speed reduction.
You could also address the "missiles do nothing over 5k/s" issue by introducing an equivalent mod for missiles to tracking comps and enhancers for turrets. Give the missile boat the option of increasing the performance of their missiles as well as their damage output with BCUs. Turrets currently have 3 upgrade types available - one damage mod and two tracking/range mods.
I'd much rather see introduction of content than the continued tinkering/mass re-writing of game mechanics every time someone whines.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:55:00 -
[3112]
Originally by: Zarathushtra To balance something why do u need to take away things that many hold dear. I mean really how hard is it to see that speed doesnt give you any advantage in the end.
People fly fast ship cause its fun. U can counter Vagas and stuff with Recons and neuting BS. How is it balanced when u counter everything with a drake?
I cant understand who got the idea that something is wrong with the current game mechanics. What does it matter if your mission running CNR cant hit crows? Is it really unbalanced if 2 bil Machariel can outran u but throw a web in there and boom there goes 2 bil.
And why o why does the AB need to be a viable option?
Well lets shoot missiles and fly Ravens then.
Great day to be Minmatar.
EXACTLY .... now all our ships will be useless the might as well say that the Rapier is being nerfed too finally it was viable there wont be any need for it now cause let me tell ya im really gonna bother to pay a crap load of isk to catch some ceptors that btw dont go as fast as they do now either Im really ****ed about all the money i have spent on useless ships and riggs.....if you were gonna nerf it CCP why put it out there to begin with.....O and while yer nerfing everything eles dont forget the Boosters cant leave them out GJ should rename Caldari race Missiles FTW
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:55:00 -
[3113]
honestly i dont know why we give feedback i mean i read many pages saying the nos nerf stunk way more than it was good and they continued with it anyways, now we just have a nuet plague. which imho is worse? but CCP does this as a formality but what we have is an accountant, who says he has had to pay so many folks for the man hrs to change everything that has been done and the time spent. Because CCP this is really only about money now isnt it? Not about a good damn game like it used to be. Seems you have lost the plot. What next 30 day gtcs only at 40 dollars and 500mil on formus.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:56:00 -
[3114]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 29/07/2008 11:58:39 Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 29/07/2008 11:57:48
Originally by: Cutesmile
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ?
Good news for all then, because as soon as combat is won purely based on SP amounts and the value of the ship then we will really be playing WoW in space.
You brought the wrong ship to the fight. Tricky now, isn't it? Having to use your brain to come up with different options.
'Adapt or die', I think the phrase goes, either that or 'learn to play the game nublet'
Edit - I would ask for your stuff, but as its all nano fit it's probably not worth very much anymore...
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:58:00 -
[3115]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Cutesmile
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ?
Good news for all then, because as soon as combat is won purely based on SP amounts and the value of the ship then we will really be playing WoW in space.
You brought the wrong ship to the fight. Tricky now, isn't it? Having to use your brain to come up with different options.
'Adapt or die', I think the phrase goes, either that or 'learn to play the game nublet'
'Adapt or die', in this case, being 'Train for a Drake (or a Falcon, or Torp Raven), or be gimped'.
The 'wrong ship to the fight' is now anything non-Caldari.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Forced Evil
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:59:00 -
[3116]
Edited by: Forced Evil on 29/07/2008 12:06:41
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 29/07/2008 11:47:14 http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
guess what i will train (it have cheaper rigs, never miss, works vs every ship after narf,have more dps, have more ehp, tanks more)
forgot about lower sp investement
[Myrmidon, Myrm] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Co-Processor II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 Hobgoblin II x1
95k HP 800 dps
[Hurricane, hurricane] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4
76k HP 850 dps
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:59:00 -
[3117]
Right, last night i tested my ishtar against a vaga....it died just the same again - and the vaga tanked the drones very well..
THEN i tested a myrmidon vs an ishtar...expecting it to mwd away and drop drones i had a scram and smartbomb...the ishtar orbitted me at 1k and tanked my drones, auto's with EMP and smartbomb combined. whilst giving my dual rep setup a hell of a pounding...it was a VERY close fight...and yes, i have max skills for BC stuff..
ishtar = not useless, proven.
(to the pilot, ive forgetten your name, but DAMN that was a GF)
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:02:00 -
[3118]
Originally by: Forced Evil shield tanking myrm
It's not like the Myrmidon gets an armor repper bonus and Gallente traditionally has no shield tanking, or anything.
Also, ^^^^ what an amazing use for an Ishtar, if I just happen to find a Myrmidon somewhere with absolutely no backup, it might be worth it. That's a great use of 200M ISK.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:02:00 -
[3119]
Originally by: R3DSKULL honestly i dont know why we give feedback i mean i read many pages saying the nos nerf stunk way more than it was good and they continued with it anyways, now we just have a nuet plague. which imho is worse? but CCP does this as a formality but what we have is an accountant, who says he has had to pay so many folks for the man hrs to change everything that has been done and the time spent. Because CCP this is really only about money now isnt it? Not about a good damn game like it used to be. Seems you have lost the plot. What next 30 day gtcs only at 40 dollars and 500mil on formus.
The Nos nerf is a good point. I remember supporting Nos nerf, there were many discussions about a good way to go about it. Then what CCP did was a total overkill. They destroyed it. It's terrible
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Tera Lefen
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:03:00 -
[3120]
Nanobear tears anyone? They are sooo delicious.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:05:00 -
[3121]
Originally by: Demus DaVet
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
HACs were never meant to be anti-frigate platforms. Just because you threw lots of ISK into something dosen't mean it should automatically win against a cheaper ship.
Now just imagine the things a Vaga could do to a BS with the nerf to webs?
Please don't post unless you know what you're talking about.
But okay, I'll imagine.
....
Yes, I do believe the Vaga pilot will be clever enough to stay out of web range at the "ludicrous" speed of 3,5km for a whole 1,5 minutes before his cap runs out.
Nice way to completely miss my point.
... which was, by the way, that you don't need to stay out of webrange anymore. You can dive right in with your Vaga and run circles around a Turret BS; at which range you'll easily be hitting 500 DPS and the only thing you really have to worry about is Drones.
But if you insist on continuing to fly it like it still goes 7km/sec, then I can't stop you. ...
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:12:00 -
[3122]
Originally by: Haakelen
Also, ^^^^ what an amazing use for an Ishtar, if I just happen to find a Myrmidon somewhere with absolutely no backup, it might be worth it. That's a great use of 200M ISK.
yeah....cus that never happens... 1 2
both were alone in a belt at the time, and both ended up calling in backup, which promptly died - and i could have easily done that with my ishtar in the same way, solo. just a shame i was in a bomber.
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Forced Evil
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:14:00 -
[3123]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Forced Evil shield tanking myrm
It's not like the Myrmidon gets an armor repper bonus and Gallente traditionally has no shield tanking, or anything.
Also, ^^^^ what an amazing use for an Ishtar, if I just happen to find a Myrmidon somewhere with absolutely no backup, it might be worth it. That's a great use of 200M ISK.
The nerf of nanoships is bad. but with the post above(even if are not realistic) just wanted to show, other BC class ships can do the same as the drake if needed, should we nerf them? Is idiotic to call every time for nerf if we cant find an easy solution to fight against.
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Mr Goldfish
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:18:00 -
[3124]
TBH, I'm not much of a fan of nerfs to begin with, but with the recent developments in nanogangs and the likes, I must admit that a change is due.
With enough money (yes I'm talking full snake set, faction mwd, boosters, t2 rigs, whatnot) you can achieve speeds beyond imagination. I've seen quite a lot of this and must admit it feels unfair to the 99.9% of the EVE residence who can't afford all these things, hence get an unfair disadvantage in combat.
I dont say everything should be fair, that's not my point. But when money makes such a big difference, I do think it's unfair.
Skills should matter, a lot more than it does today. But most of all, experience - actual time in the game, should be the most decisive of all.
It's hard to talk about fairness in terms of equality. What's equality?
I think it's wrong to change too many game mechanics too. If you change the way nano setups work today, it will just make another part of the game unfair. People will always find ways to gain an advantage. Because that's what PvP is all about - gaining an advantage over your enemy. That's also why people get upset when something that is giving them an advantage is taken away.
All in all I think the game is good as it is. Most important of all, make the changes as small as possible, and introduce more of them than few and big. That way it's easier to say hey this is not the way we intended it to be rather than wrecking it all in one swoop.
Time to hit the beach, so no more rambling from me. Seeya in space!
Goldie
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Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:19:00 -
[3125]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 29/07/2008 12:01:07 I like these changes.
Battlecruiser are heavily armed cruisers that are designed to combat other cruisers, while avoiding even heavier but slower ships.
That being said, comparing ships 1:1 is always flawed because the reality is, that PvP is teamwork. Yes I know some Nanopilots are now screaming: Blob!, but the reality is, that Nanoships already travel in groups. The Vagabond will still be much faster then the Drake, so it will still have the choice to disengage, when it took to much damage.
Please do not tell me, that a gang of roaming Vagas can no longer kill a lone drake, ratting in some system, because they will still be able too. Maybe even faster then before because, of new incentives to fit a damagemod or two, instead of all lowslots with overdrives, inertia stabs and nanofibers.
Roaming Gangs did exist long before Nano-ships became the flavor of the year and I will predict they will still exist after Nano has been nerfed.
Blasterships might be in a better shape then before, because right now, a Blastership has become a rarity but after the nerf we will see much more BS with close range weapons, to deal to with the Drake Plague.
As an Ex-Vagabond Pilot and skilled Gallente BlasterBS, as well as an Amarr Pulselaser BS Pilot and Minmatar Autocannon BS Pilot, I welcome these changes. I think will have fun again.
I dont think you understand nano gangs at all, yes we do kill solo ships if we find them ratting in a belt when we are roaming but what we are looking for is good fights, we like to provoke people into engaging us and then using better fleet skills and tatics kill gangs much larger than us, but this can only be done with lots of skill and hopibng the hostile gang isnt very organised so we can take advantage of that.
The other day we caught a hydra carrier off one of there poses, we killed 60+ and lost 8 this wasnt because we was a nano gang but because we had a good gang setup, good lgistics and also because they tried to throw a half arsed gang at us to save the carrier. The people who seem to moan about nanos are the ones who dont want to put any time or effort into thinking oftatics to stop them, they just think that if you throw 20 drakes 10 ravens and any other crap you can find that you should automaticaly win.
It just seems its always the pvpers who get nerfed, and when we adapt and start killing the same whiners again they just run to the forums and cry nerf once more, this isnt thefirst and wont be the last time pvpers get hit with a nerf but one thing will remain the same, the top pvp alliances will carry on killing you.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:20:00 -
[3126]
Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 12:21:49
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Haakelen
Also, ^^^^ what an amazing use for an Ishtar, if I just happen to find a Myrmidon somewhere with absolutely no backup, it might be worth it. That's a great use of 200M ISK.
yeah....cus that never happens... 1 2
both were alone in a belt at the time, and both ended up calling in backup, which promptly died - and i could have easily done that with my ishtar in the same way, solo. just a shame i was in a bomber.
Fair enough, I'll concede those . (I found a Cyclone in a belt once, loaded with Deadspace shit, piloted by a 4 month old. We got it with two AFs and a rifter, that was p. fun)
As I've said before, nanos being rebalanced (balance != ineffective) is good. I just think the way it's being done is ham-handed and ridiculous, and things like the MWD reactivation penalty and Webs need to be considered, lest Blasters get even worse.
I don't see why a poly/snake/ganglink nerf + precision missile boost wouldn't be fine for everyone. I'd love it.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:24:00 -
[3127]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 12:21:49
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Haakelen
Also, ^^^^ what an amazing use for an Ishtar, if I just happen to find a Myrmidon somewhere with absolutely no backup, it might be worth it. That's a great use of 200M ISK.
yeah....cus that never happens... 1 2
both were alone in a belt at the time, and both ended up calling in backup, which promptly died - and i could have easily done that with my ishtar in the same way, solo. just a shame i was in a bomber.
Fair enough, I'll concede those . (I found a Cyclone in a belt once, loaded with Deadspace shit, piloted by a 4 month old. We got it with two AFs and a rifter, that was p. fun)
As I've said before, nanos being rebalanced (balance != ineffective) is good. I just think the way it's being done is ham-handed and ridiculous, and things like the MWD reactivation penalty and Webs need to be considered, lest Blasters get even worse.
I don't see why a poly/snake/ganglink nerf + precision missile boost wouldn't be fine for everyone. I'd love it.
i do agree that the mwd-reactivation is a bit crap. but i tried AF's with AB's and both the Enyo and Ishkur pwned. I know what my new fave is gonna be :)
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Morris Falter
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:36:00 -
[3128]
Current nano is nothing compared to the awesomeness that was bouncing off planets in multiple 100mn mwd battleships in 2004/5.
We survived then, what's changed..? Current nano is a joke compared to that. Remember dual mwd kestrels..? Intys? Ruptures?
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Mr Goldfish
Ceptacemia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:39:00 -
[3129]
Edited by: Mr Goldfish on 29/07/2008 12:39:21
Originally by: Morris Falter Current nano is nothing compared to the awesomeness that was bouncing off planets in multiple 100mn mwd battleships in 2004/5.
We survived then, what's changed..? Current nano is a joke compared to that. Remember dual mwd kestrels..? Intys? Ruptures?
LOL true. Let's keep from doing too big changes. That will make the game better for all of us.
Goldie Goldie |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:45:00 -
[3130]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 29/07/2008 11:58:39 Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 29/07/2008 11:57:48
Originally by: Cutesmile
Anticruiser what ? LOL use ur brain, see it the differences 35m isk vs 200m, 10m sp vs 30+m Anti support cruiser lol. BS tank is reality for Drake ?
Good news for all then, because as soon as combat is won purely based on SP amounts and the value of the ship then we will really be playing WoW in space.
You brought the wrong ship to the fight. Tricky now, isn't it? Having to use your brain to come up with different options.
'Adapt or die', I think the phrase goes, either that or 'learn to play the game nublet'
Edit - I would ask for your stuff, but as its all nano fit it's probably not worth very much anymore...
Man i can fly with Drake (BC lvl5) but i dont want adapt for Caldari Online. Dont wanna be a stupid brainless pilot who can just do it the F1-F8 button push. I wanna fun the play, and not wanna make automatised ships and game. And dont forget when the GTC changed over 7000 costumer left the EVE = 105000$ if more will leave a CCP lost mutch 1/4 million dollars. Lag still there, but money gone. And see it how to make the CCP from EVE a SWG.
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Ba Sia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:50:00 -
[3131]
Edited by: Ba Sia on 29/07/2008 12:52:04 I hope that all opinions would be read by CCP and analyzed.
Here is mine:
This speed nerf sounds to me like some kind of castration of nano class ships.
What I am afraid of: - nano ships (speed tanker) will only be seen in museum. - I think these changes are too much drastic and should be implemented in very small steps altought the idea and sense of them is logical.
My suggestions to CCP: Maybe it would be better not to castrate nano ships so much. Maybe a little a better way would be to introduce new anti nano systems. For example:
1. a script for the the disruptor/scramble med slot module wich would: - could have a variable optimal range depending on some 'science' skill (but not the same as HIC) - could have a falloff - effect of script : warp scramble strenght = 0, reduce mwd boost bonus of targeted ship. - The closer the target gets the better the effect is. - The scripts focuses on disabling the MWD of the target ship so the scramble strenght is zero - because it is too weak to stop the main warp core engine from working but strong enought to break the module from working properly. - no idea for optimal and falloff and mwd boost minus. - do not stack from multiple ships (same effect from 2 ships do not sum, the strongest works)
2. Script for target painter - script that would boost the target signature it it uses MWD more than standard painter but also the signature of the ships using the scipt (target is better "visible" for hitting but you are also ). - reduces optimal/falloff or any other penalty like the example aboce to bring balance between using and not using the script.
3. new launcher for some kind of mwd wekening probe (like the interdictor sphere)
4. ... Any other "soft" script/module wich would give a non nano ships a better chance for repulsing a nano attack but not strong enought to disable the nano completly.
5. missiles slower than ships they should hit ? give a speed bonus to missiles :D
CPP Please ! The changes should not make nano ships completly useless !! Better give opportunities to REPULSE a nano ship/gang but dont give us the power to kill them immediatly.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:55:00 -
[3132]
Quote: I dont think you understand nano gangs at all, yes we do kill solo ships if we find them ratting in a belt when we are roaming but what we are looking for is good fights, we like to provoke people into engaging us and then using better fleet skills and tatics kill gangs much larger than us, but this can only be done with lots of skill and hopibng the hostile gang isnt very organised so we can take advantage of that.
I am not a Noob and when I add the kills that I and my second PvP char scored, I destroyed a lot more then I have lost and that includes Nanoships. I have in many situations fought outnumbered and without Nano and still came out on top.
Flying a Nanoship is a bit like staying above a certain line. You keep your transversal up, or simply get out when the whole hostile gang is targeting you. If you fall below the line, if the hostile turret ships have you in range and are still able to track you well enough, or the enemies has more Huginns,Rapiers, etc, or the Lag Gods look unfavoribly at you, then you die horribly.
I never complained that Nanoships are invincible. Only that they get to choose their fights at will and could not really being forced to stay and slug it out. It personally bothered me, that my personal choice of ships (Close Range Turret BS) was nearly, extinct.
But as you and many others have said, superior tactics will still win. So I do not know why especially Tri and and PL are whining as if they got their RL equivalent of an epeen into a pencil sharpener.
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Morris Falter
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:57:00 -
[3133]
The elephant in the room is CCP's policies and philosophical approach to game play. I've written a couple of times on this topic, summary below.
Issue one: The game is hard to learn Issue two: Tactics are varied and complex Issue three: Stupidity should be punished/punishable - no plan, no tactic, no win. Issue four: Numbers should not always win (nano arguably only way to fight a blob without a blob) Issue five: Inteligent gameplay should be rewarded
In general, eve players are an older bunch, who can handle complex things. Don't be afraid to give some more insight on the real issues - but I'm aware that inside any group there will be differences of opinions. I'm not asking for a vote or any bullshit, its CCP's game. But, I would like to see the meat behind the thinking.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:07:00 -
[3134]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/07/2008 13:12:42
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
I never complained that Nanoships are invincible. Only that they get to choose their fights at will and could not really being forced to stay and slug it out. It personally bothered me, that my personal choice of ships (Close Range Turret BS) was nearly, extinct.
So why not nerf station and gate huggers or cloakers or the ability to be aligned and insta warp or sitting inside or near a POS bubble, cos all of these things give pilots the ability to "choose their fights at will" and "not be forced to stay and slug it out".
The nano nerf is about reducing the overall skill level in EVE because the ppl who wish this stupid nerf are too lazy, stupid or incompetent to improve their personal and team work skills.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:27:00 -
[3135]
Guys, give up. CCP has already put this thread on ignore and are going to do things the SOE way.
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Olea Avenger
Gallente BigMek Industries GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:28:00 -
[3136]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Only that they get to choose their fights at will and could not really being forced to stay and slug it out. It personally bothered me, that my personal choice of ships (Close Range Turret BS) was nearly, extinct.
Unfortunatly, they still will be extinct from my observations tonight.
Sign up for the campaign against Angel ratts today. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:45:00 -
[3137]
Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
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Hehulk
Black Sea Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:50:00 -
[3138]
Edited by: Hehulk on 29/07/2008 13:50:09
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
Of course, your right. 20 man hours went into all this work, only a mad man would throw that away ----------
It's great being minmatar, ain't it |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:55:00 -
[3139]
Originally by: Hehulk Edited by: Hehulk on 29/07/2008 13:50:09
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
Of course, your right. 20 man hours went into all this work, only a mad man would throw that away
yeah, but they wouldnt let all this lovely lovely whining go to waste - or actually happen if it wasnt going ahead - there would have been a few more posts saying 'no worries guys, its only a joke , carry on f4gging it up, we're just kidding lololol'
Face up, get selling those vagas
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:12:00 -
[3140]
Oh yes. This patch will be released.
...And the exodus of the EvE subscribers will begin shortly thereafter.
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Seiji Hannah
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:14:00 -
[3141]
It seems there should be a discussion focusing on singular changes in the proposed patch instead of the whole thing at once. 1: Web effects nerfed to 60% - this is the most probable change, everyone knew it would happen, it was only a matter of when - the change itself makes sense - ecm, damps, nosf have all had their respective effects lowered for the benefit of specialized ships and setups to point out the nessecity to use support ships, however the specialized ships havent been properly boosted in their role - yet - perhaps it would be a good idea to add a role bonus to the efficiency as well as range on all Combat Recons.
2: Warp Scramble effects - excellent addition to the webifyer nerf, the alternative to the reactivation delay could be changed into a chance based 20 second delay upon successfull scramble and affect the MWD only. |
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:17:00 -
[3142]
Just as a CRAZY suggestion ... how about we roll out changes slowly and progressively rather than in one big world changing lump ?
Decide what the problem is, then one thing at a time, change how it works or how it fits together until you have changed it enough.
So, start by nerfing snake sets and nothing else, so we have a month where the fastest of the fast have lost a big chunk of speed, but us mere mortals aren't effected.
Then if thats not enough, tweak the stacking equation for propulsion mods/rigs. Maybe make them all stack together, but not have as harsh a penalty as the current normal stacking.
So its two months later, and speeds are gradually decreasing. If its still too much, then tweak it all again.
But this one shot at fixing everything is just ... horrible. And the scrammer thing is beyond horrible. Same with reactivation. Thats not something thats interesting and new and so forth, it just slows combat down and thats never a good thing.
Please guys. Don't dump a massive bundle of major changes in one go. Do them one at a time, and closely watch their results until you get to where you want to be. Aside from anything else, making something that a lot of people have spent alot of time and isk getting to be really good worthless overnight is a bad thing. A slow decline is fine, alows people to discover new things, rather than just having to deal with over a billion isk loss over one downtime.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:18:00 -
[3143]
Edited by: Demus DaVet on 29/07/2008 14:18:45
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 29/07/2008 12:01:07 I like these changes.
Battlecruiser are heavily armed cruisers that are designed to combat other cruisers, while avoiding even heavier but slower ships.
That being said, comparing ships 1:1 is always flawed because the reality is, that PvP is teamwork. Yes I know some Nanopilots are now screaming: Blob!, but the reality is, that Nanoships already travel in groups. The Vagabond will still be much faster then the Drake, so it will still have the choice to disengage, when it took to much damage.
Please do not tell me, that a gang of roaming Vagas can no longer kill a lone drake, ratting in some system, because they will still be able too. Maybe even faster then before because, of new incentives to fit a damagemod or two, instead of all lowslots with overdrives, inertia stabs and nanofibers.
Roaming Gangs did exist long before Nano-ships became the flavor of the year and I will predict they will still exist after Nano has been nerfed.
Blasterships might be in a better shape then before, because right now, a Blastership has become a rarity but after the nerf we will see much more BS with close range weapons, to deal to with the Drake Plague.
As an Ex-Vagabond Pilot and skilled Gallente BlasterBS, as well as an Amarr Pulselaser BS Pilot and Minmatar Autocannon BS Pilot, I welcome these changes. I think will have fun again.
You seem to miss the point. Of course 5 Vagas will currently kill the solo Drake. They might even kill the Apocalypse. But check this out, 5 Drakes would also kill the solo Drake and Apoc. So I see no argument there. And guess what, after the changes, the 5 Vagas won't be able to do even that :-) Even 5 to 1.
In gang/fleet tactics you only care about two things, your DPS and your survivability. It usually get high one and low on the other. Currently nano fits have low DPS and high survivability through their evading speed. Cut their survivability and you can effectively say that nano fits will have low dps and low survivability. So nanos are not effective anymore, even if everything else slows down.
Second, I find it funny that you believe that nano fits are mundane having their low slots filled with ODs. (Mind you, standard Vaga fit does have a gyro or two, or it won't do any DPS otherwise, just fly fast). Guess what, every tanking ship has their low or middle slot filled with their respective tanking modules, as well as their rigs slots. Is that mundane also ? Cause then every possible fit of every ship is just as.... mundane.
As for BCs, yes, it's a pitty they have no effective role right now, but that does not mean that we should dumb everything down so that they can finally fill a role, does it ? And I really don't think that their intended role was to kill T2 Cruisers fitted with T2 modules. Rather than a cheap way for corps to throw numbers against BSes.
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NemisisEnforcer
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:22:00 -
[3144]
You know I didn't even realize it at first but CCP Nozh is the same fool that came up with the proposed and failed carrier nerf as well. CCP you should not let this guy come up with ideas anymore as he always gets you in trouble with your players. WE MAKE EVE WHAT IT IS. Without us you are nothing and your little "don't make I quit" threats remark Mr Nozh was cute. Eat shit. You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:26:00 -
[3145]
From sisi:
Thank god I can fly arazus and have a caldari char.
Speed as a tactic in and of itself has been murdered. The entire style of combat is dead in the water. Only way to get the necessary speed to not get molested by everything from a frigate to a bs is to spend billions (which now only gives you a small advantage over spending peanuts). The nerfs are massively over the top; have more of an impact both directly in terms of speed reduction and indirectly in terms of ramifications in other areas of the game than the blog led us to believe. Too much at once.
Reactivation delay on mwd further encourages perma-running (I thought ccp was against the concept of turning it on, whizzing round in circles and forgetting about it - a tactic which incidentally will get you killed by anyone with a brain) since once it deactivates you have 10seconds during which time you can't make any split second reactions.
Warp Scram = Overpowered. Lucky I have recon 5, an arazu and a load of old faction scrams I never used lying around.
Webs = Too Weak
Change to warfare links/claymore/skirmish warfare/mindlink is all massively over the top and is a serious kick in the pants to those that have dedicated between months and a year of training.
Polycarbs + Nanos are now a pile of crap. (though I heard mention that they were broken on sisi, so it's possible I haven't had the chance to test them properly)
Everything feels horribly lethargic.
Vaga has been neutered.
Ishtar has been neutered.
Ceptors are now painfully slow.
Af's have a pleasant speed boost (surprised tbh)
Missiles are now > everything speed related. Heard mention that you now want to look at explosion velocity and missile dmg calculations......surely that alone should tell you that you've screwed up. Solutions should be concise and elegant, not sprawling behemoths that slowly spread to all aspects of the game. What else are you then going to have to change to balance the ml changes? All seems idiotic to me.
Light drones will now **** the average inty (putting inties back to being pointless)
There will be a lot of people with redundant rigs they can't remove and spent a lot of isk on, as well as a crapload of people with faction and deadspace mods that now aren't worth the pixels they're represented by.
X-instinct reducing sig radius: way to penalise those that invested in setting up advanced booster production chains. This could however be interesting, especially combined with the new agility modifying stuff. However, I think what we'll find is that either it's gonna be overpowered, enabling ships (with implants, gang mods, boosters etc) to become nigh on un-hittable, or, as is more likely, CCP will see the danger of it's being overpowered and "pre-nerf" it all as they put it. This of course will make it mediocre, a poor choice and therefore pointless.
Various other mods seem to be quietly having stats changed as well. T2 MWD's are now WORSE than standard named. Officer webs seem to be having their range reduced (which is really nice since all webs are also having their % reduced lol).
Minmatar recons...lol.
Blaster boats I'm not certain on. On the one hand the scrams put them at a disadvantage since they need their mwd to get in range and have to web the target. Though by the time they get close enough to they can now have their mwd's turned off (combine that with weak webbing against the target) and you've basically got a very angry midget held by the head at arms length while he swings his arsenal impotently. On the other hand 5 mid slot blaster boats potentially get a small buff since they can fit a disruptor, a scram and a web.
Snakes have been over-nerfed, as have high skilled, mindlinked claymores, which now give a pathetic speed increase.
That's all I can remember for now.
It was said that ships doing 3-5k and inties in general wouldn't really be affected...lie.
Basically it all seems incredibly badly thought out and badly implemented.
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 14:27:00 -
[3146]
Originally by: NemisisEnforcer
You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
Funny, I don't see drastic changes to my ship, oh you must have been flying one of nanoships? Well tough luck, don't say you couldn't see a nerf coming. Oh yea, and your stuff, can I have it?
_____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:33:00 -
[3147]
Ran out of space:
Small, fast ships are now small, slow moving targets with kick me painted on the aft.
Hacs also now offer precious little advantage over BC's with the changes to mass, agility etc. They tank less, they do less dmg, they're more expensive and now their agility and top speed is comparable (for those that want to argue, there is a difference, but it's not sufficient to make a significant impact in combat). I'd say the only one still worth using is the cerberus (caldari missile-spammer, what a suprise).
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:35:00 -
[3148]
Test on Sisi Plated thorax accelerate 0 to 1200 23sec with two speed implants MY-2 and Zor
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Dread Phantom
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:35:00 -
[3149]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: NemisisEnforcer
You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
Funny, I don't see drastic changes to my ship, oh you must have been flying one of nanoships? Well tough luck, don't say you couldn't see a nerf coming. Oh yea, and your stuff, can I have it?
check again
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:35:00 -
[3150]
Originally by: The Economist I'd say the only one still worth using is the cerberus (caldari missile-spammer, what a suprise).
The Zealot with the broken Energy Locus rigs is still useful. The Eagle and Muninn might be, if your idea of fun is popping frigs and pods from 150km. The sacrilege will still tank lowsec gate guns, which might be fun for... some people. It's still useful as a heavy tackler when used in concert with Guardians.
But yes, HACs are getting reamed.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
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Lament Etnellag
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:39:00 -
[3151]
I have been reading an watching this thread... sad very sad indeed. Past actions help CCP make these present changes. They introduce Factional Warfare, huge blobs enter low sec to fight against one another. Eventually they think because they are in blobs they can roam at will. Blobs get smaller and they run into low sec pirates they rip them out of the sky repeatedly at +5 to 1 odds. Hence we shouldnt be able to do that, we need to lose to those shyt fit blobs of 6 months olds. All you for the buff here are a few things for you all and tbh, if peeps get mad at this so be it. Here is a list of efective anti nano mods and tech available for you to purchase, which is in game right now. Which PVPer's pirates and anti pirates alike deply on a regular basis.
1. Heavy Neuts on BS's - 2x will insta neut a non injected HAC/Recon thats not injected and make injected ones run. 2. ECM drones - smalls will catch 90% of vagas out there 3. Other recons - IE Rapier and Curses in conjection spell doom for nanos 4. Fits that are out of the box non cookie cutters (non PVE fits) 5. Webbing inties 6. Sniper DPS support ships w/ tacklers
So does CCP test pvp or just what the pvers can do and incorporate what skill sets pvers have and say they should have better options and chances against nano ships. They do if they fit acordingly. All of these things have been said before and will be said again most likely.
Im not in sales but I know what tactic they are using the quick sell. Sell to as many people as possible and **** the base that has brought you all to one of the most diverse and greatest MMOs that I have ever played.
Its the pilots and leader of this shyt fit gangs CHOICE to be stupid, and shyt fit to not lose any precious iskies. Its our job as pirates and PVPers to keep the economy going. We create sales we make people want to be better, its not about who has what isk its about who has what brains period.
Is it smart to fly in a ship that has no insurance to pvp to a pver its not. They want to fly into our space and own us in T1 laser fit megas and ravens they just bought with no pvp gear or support ships and kill. They learn from that experience and get their arse handed to them. Which is the only way it should be. We as pvpers have learned, trained, and fought for our tactics and techniques.
Please for the love of the game and I mean love when I say it. Get your heads out of your arses and play the game you own, oversee, and develop. Make some 10M skill point characters and go into some anti nano setups and fight for crist sake. Instead of stoking each other beards over coffee and anal lube.
-Lament
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:42:00 -
[3152]
Edited by: The Economist on 29/07/2008 14:44:13 Edited by: The Economist on 29/07/2008 14:43:13
Originally by: Haakelen
The Zealot with the broken Energy Locus rigs is still useful. The Eagle and Muninn might be, if your idea of fun is popping frigs and pods from 150km. The sacrilege will still tank lowsec gate guns, which might be fun for... some people. It's still useful as a heavy tackler when used in concert with Guardians.
But yes, HACs are getting reamed.
Agreed, but I wouldn't say that those ships and setups have any significant advantage over their cheaper and tougher BC counterparts. Whereas the Cerb still has a huge lead on the drake in terms of effective range. (Possibly eagles too, never flown them so not in a position to comment....amusing that the ones not castrated are caldari though)
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:44:00 -
[3153]
Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 14:44:46
Originally by: The Economist
Originally by: Haakelen
The Zealot with the broken Energy Locus rigs is still useful. The Eagle and Muninn might be, if your idea of fun is popping frigs and pods from 150km. The sacrilege will still tank lowsec gate guns, which might be fun for... some people. It's still useful as a heavy tackler when used in concert with Guardians.
But yes, HACs are getting reamed.
Agreed, but I wouldn't say that those ships and setups have any significant advantage over their cheaper and tougher BC counterparts.
The Zealot does. With Sharpshooter 5 / HAC 5 / Two Locus rigs you can get some crazy ranges with Scorch M and do 4-500 DPS with p. good tracking. There are no Amarr missile BCs (T1), so the Sac is neat in that respect.
The Muninn, yeah. The Hurricane is better in every situation. The Ferox is better than the Eagle.
So it's pretty much... the Cerb and the Zealot.
GUYS GUYS GUYS PEOPLE ONLY USE 5 TYPES OF HACS IN GANGS WE NEED VARIETY AND DIVERSITY
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:45:00 -
[3154]
On an other note, I do challenge someone that believes that nanofits are so overpowered, to provide us with a kill mail where a properly fit ship, be it armour or shield tank, was outmatched and killed by a nanofit of the same class or lighter class, in a 1 on 1 fight. Cause if you gentlemen are crying bloody murder about nanofits when 5 of them barely can get to kill a Raven, I say nerf Cerberuses also, cause 5 of them can kill a Typhoon.
I would politely ask to refrain from posting nanomach killmails, I know, they are a problem, but honestly, too easily fixed leaving every other nanosetup unaffected.
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Forced Evil
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:50:00 -
[3155]
Originally by: Demus DaVet On an other note, I do challenge someone that believes that nanofits are so overpowered, to provide us with a kill mail where a properly fit ship, be it armour or shield tank, was outmatched and killed by a nanofit of the same class or lighter class, in a 1 on 1 fight. Cause if you gentlemen are crying bloody murder about nanofits when 5 of them barely can get to kill a Raven, I say nerf Cerberuses also, cause 5 of them can kill a Typhoon.
I would politely ask to refrain from posting nanomach killmails, I know, they are a problem, but honestly, too easily fixed leaving every other nanosetup unaffected.
i think u right, but still :) http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=24207
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:57:00 -
[3156]
Edited by: The Economist on 29/07/2008 14:58:37 One question I'd love to see an answer to (beyond that it hurts the servers) is:
Why is going fast a problem if in doing so the ship negates or otherwise mitigates all of it's combat capabilities when facing something with the mental acuity beyond that of a goldfish?
Paper-thin. Its guns can't track. Its drones will be out of remote rep range and can't be scooped without difficulty making them very simple to destroy. Speed isn't sustainable. Cap batteries mean no protection from a simple neut, injectors mean a finite supply of charges. Once your speed and agility go beyond a certain point you have to sacrifice a massive amount to remain within scram range (even if you have a faction disruptor). Bumping is one of the most common uses, an act which renders the ship vulnerable to anyone that knows what they're doing. If you haven't spent billions you can still be easily caught up with.
Been repeated ad nauseam but I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
I blame traffic for posting that picture of his vaga doing 99k/s
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:58:00 -
[3157]
Depends what someone thinks as a proper fitting. Fact is, that Nanoships even today do not travel alone. Tanking or driving of a single Nanoships is not a problem, but keeping it tackled long enough to have it killed is a problem.
As I said before the 1vs1 PvP Argument is flawed because it is simply such are rare situation, that every number we throw at each other will not help at all.
Situation: 5 Vagas, attacking a Drake or a Raven in a Belt. Result: Drake/Raven dead. Vagas taking minimal shield damage, if any at all.
Post Nerf: 5 Vagas, attacking a Drake or a Raven in a Belt. Result: Drake/Raven likely dead. Vagas might take some damage from the Drakes Missiles, which might force one or two them to warp out. Drake/Raven holding out a bit longer and might even hope for reinforcements. In the end the Drake/Raven will die if help does not come fast. But regardless of the results, both sides should have a little more fun, since the battle was not completely onesided.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:59:00 -
[3158]
Originally by: Forced Evil
Originally by: Demus DaVet On an other note, I do challenge someone that believes that nanofits are so overpowered, to provide us with a kill mail where a properly fit ship, be it armour or shield tank, was outmatched and killed by a nanofit of the same class or lighter class, in a 1 on 1 fight. Cause if you gentlemen are crying bloody murder about nanofits when 5 of them barely can get to kill a Raven, I say nerf Cerberuses also, cause 5 of them can kill a Typhoon.
I would politely ask to refrain from posting nanomach killmails, I know, they are a problem, but honestly, too easily fixed leaving every other nanosetup unaffected.
i think u right, but still :) http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=24207
Lol, agreed.
I knew someone would come up with something like this, hehe. But mind you, it's a ratting typhoon, hardly a PVP setup. I mean the guy is using lasers there !
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:59:00 -
[3159]
Originally by: Forced Evil
Originally by: Demus DaVet On an other note, I do challenge someone that believes that nanofits are so overpowered, to provide us with a kill mail where a properly fit ship, be it armour or shield tank, was outmatched and killed by a nanofit of the same class or lighter class, in a 1 on 1 fight. Cause if you gentlemen are crying bloody murder about nanofits when 5 of them barely can get to kill a Raven, I say nerf Cerberuses also, cause 5 of them can kill a Typhoon.
I would politely ask to refrain from posting nanomach killmails, I know, they are a problem, but honestly, too easily fixed leaving every other nanosetup unaffected.
i think u right, but still :) http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=24207
that guy deserved to die....to a bunch of frigs if nothing else..
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:02:00 -
[3160]
Originally by: Valea Silpha Just as a CRAZY suggestion ... how about we roll out changes slowly and progressively rather than in one big world changing lump ?
Decide what the problem is, then one thing at a time, change how it works or how it fits together until you have changed it enough.
So, start by nerfing snake sets and nothing else, so we have a month where the fastest of the fast have lost a big chunk of speed, but us mere mortals aren't effected.
Then if thats not enough, tweak the stacking equation for propulsion mods/rigs. Maybe make them all stack together, but not have as harsh a penalty as the current normal stacking.
So its two months later, and speeds are gradually decreasing. If its still too much, then tweak it all again.
But this one shot at fixing everything is just ... horrible. And the scrammer thing is beyond horrible. Same with reactivation. Thats not something thats interesting and new and so forth, it just slows combat down and thats never a good thing.
Please guys. Don't dump a massive bundle of major changes in one go. Do them one at a time, and closely watch their results until you get to where you want to be. Aside from anything else, making something that a lot of people have spent alot of time and isk getting to be really good worthless overnight is a bad thing. A slow decline is fine, alows people to discover new things, rather than just having to deal with over a billion isk loss over one downtime.
you miss teh point. Every other form of tactic and anti-blob tactic got nerfed because nano's existed. Now Speed tanking will no longer exist, people can use conventional tactics.
When you want to chop off a cancer, you chop it in 1 go. You do not take a piece today and wait 2 months and take another bit off - that is usually a bad management sign. What you do is take the pain once and then within a week, everybody has forgotten about it. Remember all the crying over WCS nerf? Week later, nobody says a word about it.
Nano's were imbalanced to the stage that anti-bob tactics became obsolete due to blobber having fast ships in them and the only counter became another super blob insted of tactics.
Also, 3 nano vagas do 1000dps. That will kill any ship without risk of loss. E.G 3 BS vs nano vaga has the nanovaga in no danger. 3 nanovaga vs any ship has that other ship in major danger.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:03:00 -
[3161]
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
so now this is the new argument against the nanonerf,
"Guys! just cause the Devs may have made a bad decision, it took them awhile to slip and fall into their own ****, they aren't gonna clean the mess up, just give them a napkin and tell them good job"
5 fighters for carriers anyone?
STFU with this logic. The changes are the death to PVP in this game, and clearly were not ment to solely represent an adjustment of the ludicrious speed. they are a complete and utter fail and joke that the majority of players will refuse to choke down
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:07:00 -
[3162]
Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:09:27 Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:07:41
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 29/07/2008 15:06:27
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
so now this is the new argument against the nanonerf,
"Guys! just cause the Devs may have made a bad decision, it took them awhile to slip and fall into their own p00p, they aren't gonna clean the mess up, just give them a napkin and tell them good job"
5 fighters for carriers anyone?
STFU with this illogicaly response. The changes are the death to PVP in this game, and clearly were not ment to solely represent an adjustment of the ludicrious speed. they are a complete and utter fail and joke that the majority of players will refuse to choke down
once again, lololol @ you idiots who claim the solo/small gang stuff is PURELY RELIANT on a nanogang/nanofit....ffs - i manage to solo all the time in non-nano crap...i dont find it hard, why do you?
cus i spent xxx isk on it...bawwww...
tough shit, leave the game you god awful idiot...resorting to 'WE WONT TAKE IT' go on strike, see who cracks first.
oh and try to post constructively, rather than just screaming STFU I DONT LIKE WHAT YOURE SAYING!!!!
i made a point, i believe to be valid, counter it you tit.
Edit, no, it inst an arguement AGAINST IT...christ learn to read the posts...
|
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:10:00 -
[3163]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Depends what someone thinks as a proper fitting. Fact is, that Nanoships even today do not travel alone. Tanking or driving of a single Nanoships is not a problem, but keeping it tackled long enough to have it killed is a problem.
As I said before the 1vs1 PvP Argument is flawed because it is simply such are rare situation, that every number we throw at each other will not help at all.
Situation: 5 Vagas, attacking a Drake or a Raven in a Belt. Result: Drake/Raven dead. Vagas taking minimal shield damage, if any at all.
Post Nerf: 5 Vagas, attacking a Drake or a Raven in a Belt. Result: Drake/Raven likely dead. Vagas might take some damage from the Drakes Missiles, which might force one or two them to warp out. Drake/Raven holding out a bit longer and might even hope for reinforcements. In the end the Drake/Raven will die if help does not come fast. But regardless of the results, both sides should have a little more fun, since the battle was not completely onesided.
The Vagas will take much more than a "a little shield damage" even with things as they are now...
And by my calculations if 5 Cerbs drop on a Drake/Raven in a belt, the ratting Drake/Raven will die and none of the attackers will even have to warp out. Doesn't that mean that 5 Cerbs are more overpowered than 5 Vagas ? Honestly now....
I hope you see what I am getting at. Someone that is not prepared or just gets in a bad situation is definately going to die, no matter how you tone down the gameplay. Granted, nano fits are difficult to counter, but hell, they are difficult to train for, difficult to use and cost money to do it. I see nothing broken with this. Honestly.
|
The Economist
Logically Consistent
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:16:00 -
[3164]
From Nozh:
* Missiles doing too much damage to smaller targets * Agility (especially on cruisers, blaster boats and minmatar ships) * Polycarbon Engine Housing / Nanofibers, possibly increase agility bonus (make them feel more like the old ones) * Inertia Stabilizers, boost them * Drones, speed / orbit speed and tracking (see if it needs tweaking) Stuff we want to see more info on: * Tracking
--------------
Ok, so now as a consequence of your attempt to "tweak" ludicrous speed (by which I of course mean blanket nerf everything realted to speed) you're realizing that you need to change the missile dmg calculations in some way, perhaps alter basic drone mechanics such as speed and tracking and maybe even turret tracking (not to mention already having to un-nerf parts of your nerf).......and you don't think the fact that your nerfs may require extensive rebalancing of very basic areas of the game suggests that you might be on the wrong track?
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:18:00 -
[3165]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Also, 3 nano vagas do 1000dps. That will kill any ship without risk of loss. E.G 3 BS vs nano vaga has the nanovaga in no danger. 3 nanovaga vs any ship has that other ship in major danger.
You do know that in order to deliver 1000dps 3 vagas have to be at about 10-15km range from target (that is very close to web range and certainly in neut range) doing 1500m/s at most (making them vulnerable to medium drones as well) right ? You do know that they have the sig radius of a small sun because of their shield extenders and MWDs and thus can be tracked by large guns ? And you do know that every self-respecting BS pilot packs a neut anyway, not for nanos but in order to break his enemy's BS tank ? And of course he also packs a web as well ? And you do realize that even 3 Rifters have one BS in danger right ?
|
Tekki Sandan
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:20:00 -
[3166]
CCP killing solo and small gang pvp one nerf at a time.
where getting very close to blobs online!
your killing the solo gamer!
LONEWOLF FOR LIFE! this game or the next
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:22:00 -
[3167]
Originally by: The Economist From Nozh:
* Missiles doing too much damage to smaller targets * Agility (especially on cruisers, blaster boats and minmatar ships) * Polycarbon Engine Housing / Nanofibers, possibly increase agility bonus (make them feel more like the old ones) * Inertia Stabilizers, boost them * Drones, speed / orbit speed and tracking (see if it needs tweaking) Stuff we want to see more info on: * Tracking
What is really funny is that they had to hold a "testing" session in Sissy to see all that. All these points and many more were made by post #10 in this thread once the changes were announced.
But I forget, the devs worked a whole 5x5 man hours to plan their changes. Long enough to iron out all possible implications.....
|
Wolf Parade
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:24:00 -
[3168]
How drunk do I have to be for this to make sense?
|
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:24:00 -
[3169]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan CCP killing solo and small gang pvp one nerf at a time.
where getting very close to blobs online!
your killing the solo gamer!
LONEWOLF FOR LIFE! this game or the next
Explain to me why, you, ''LONEWOLF FOR LIFE'' cant play in another type of ship????
are you so awesome, you can only play as a sniper in BF games? only a ... i dunno...sneaky whatever in others? cant you use BC's? are cruisers beneath you?
|
Octavio Santillian
Einherjar Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:25:00 -
[3170]
Its time for CCP to consider limited respec options:
We have all seen this kind of radical altering of the game mechanics before, and I applauded CCP for the continuing endeavor to create a better more enjoyable game. That being said; since this kind of radical change is becoming the norm, CCP needs to serve its customer base better, and explore a method for characters to alter their past choices without being able to exploit that mechanic. Like other changes to game mechanics, the ability to undo bad choices (or choices that were rendered bad of no control of your own) needs to be part of the evolution of Eve.
CCP needs to think about how to compensate players who have spent a lot of time training for a specific effect/game concept only to have them fundamentally altered. Simply saying ôjust train something elseö is no longer a reasonable approach (not that it ever was reasonable).
For just one small example, characters who have trained to use a skirmish mindlink trained for specific effects. Now some of those specific effects may be fundamentally changed. IÆm not attempting to discuss the utility of an agility boost vs a speed boost, I simply saying that players that trained to get a speed boost did not decide to train for an agility boost. Khanid ship changes are another example. Again, this has nothing to do with whether the changes make the ships/mods better or worse; the point is that players made specific choices based on criteria that were changed, but were not offered any recourse to change their choices. This amounts to a bait and switch. I believe this point can also be applied to concepts like speed tanking, etc.
Again, I donÆt mind an evolving game, but I simply feel that if CCP is going to alter the game, there needs to be a mechanic to alter your character. Perhaps you could ætrainÆ for a limited ærespecÆ or something like that. Options would have to be explored, but they need to be explored and explored in an honest and forthright manner.
|
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:27:00 -
[3171]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon That being said, comparing ships 1:1 is always flawed because the reality is, that PvP is teamwork. Yes I know some Nanopilots are now screaming: Blob!, but the reality is, that Nanoships already travel in groups. The Vagabond will still be much faster then the Drake, so it will still have the choice to disengage, when it took to much damage.
Think about something.
Why would people consistently nano if they had relatively even numbers against an enemy?
Click me! You know you want to... |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:27:00 -
[3172]
Originally by: Demus DaVet
The Vagas will take much more than a "a little shield damage" even with things as they are now...
And by my calculations if 5 Cerbs drop on a Drake/Raven in a belt, the ratting Drake/Raven will die and none of the attackers will even have to warp out. Doesn't that mean that 5 Cerbs are more overpowered than 5 Vagas ? Honestly now....
I hope you see what I am getting at. Someone that is not prepared or just gets in a bad situation is definately going to die, no matter how you tone down the gameplay. Granted, nano fits are difficult to counter, but hell, they are difficult to train for, difficult to use and cost money to do it. I see nothing broken with this. Honestly.
The point is, that this is not the end of all Gang PvP. The Vagas are still faster then most other ships, they can still get out as victors when handled right, but they need to be a lot more careful when choosing their targets and an overheated faction MWD is no longer the: Get away unharmed, Card.
So the sky is not falling. You can still adapt
|
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:31:00 -
[3173]
Originally by: Morris Falter The elephant in the room is CCP's policies and philosophical approach to game play. I've written a couple of times on this topic, summary below.
Issue one: The game is hard to learn Issue two: Tactics are varied and complex Issue three: Stupidity should be punished/punishable - no plan, no tactic, no win. Issue four: Numbers should not always win (nano arguably only way to fight a blob without a blob) Issue five: Intelligent gameplay should be rewarded
In general, eve players are an older bunch, who can handle complex things. Don't be afraid to give some more insight on the real issues - but I'm aware that inside any group there will be differences of opinions. I'm not asking for a vote or any bullshit, its CCP's game. But, I would like to see the meat behind the thinking.
I'll have to give a nod to those points.
Whenever I ask someone what playing EVE is like, the first word out of my mouth is always "hard". It still will be after this nerf considering what I do, but what about the bulk of the game's players - will it still be "hard" for them defending their space in 0.0?
I don't personally think so.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Max CAOD
Caldari MAX INTEL Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:36:00 -
[3174]
A Heavy Missile currently is awesome. It hits frigates. oh ye.. The all mwd around in 2-3k+++++. But they have an explosion radii that would hit a frigate.. oh yeah... They are all nanoed doing 3k-10km/sec and the heavy missile (8mil in missile launcher operation) hits the target painted sacrilege for 2 damage (faction scourge heavy missile, 1 explosion velocity rig). This is a MAXed cerberus. A cruiser doing anything above 1200ish m/s will still avoid almost all heavy missile, cruise, heavy assault missile damage, and ofc immune to torps. Anything flying over 2.5km/s will take just about 0 damage.
Making sure every nanoship ingame isn't immune to missiles won't hurt. Nano does deserve this nerf as it's currently the best fitting for ANY frigate/cruiser sized vessel and many bc sized and even some BS sized vessels. Being so fast you avoid almost all risks is ridiculous. And giving the only counter to nanoships (basicly) is the things you see in a nanogang. That's right. Recons (most nanoed). "Heavy Neuts makes sure nanoes can't kill nothing" any pilot in a HAC that engage the odd ratting raven with heavy neuts... can disengage before the MWD cycle (and the deceleration when MWD fades) is completed. "they always web me and I die in my nanoship :(:(:(" k
Overall. Nanoes does deserve a nerf. Some ships, like ceptors SHOULD be very hard to track/do damage to. Speedtanking should be viable, but not the only good alternative. However, Nano ships should not be made worthless, because it's one of the BEST PARTS OF EVE atm, the most fun of all no doubt. And I'm sure CCP won't make em worthless either, just making it bit more balanced. Your reporter of the BOB's progress in the MAX campaign and of the |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:37:00 -
[3175]
Where's this new Nozh post btw?
Click me! You know you want to... |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:39:00 -
[3176]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil will it still be "hard" for them defending their space in 0.0?
Get Sov 3 in a constellation with limited access (Less than three entrypoints), and in a system within JB range (preferably in an outpost system or very near to one)
Put 6-12 large T2 bubbles on either side of the gates into said constellation.
Put Jump Bridges in the prime carebearing systems, linking to the entrypoint and the non-constellation sov 3 system.
Laugh as roaming gangs have absolutely zero effect on any activity at all. For extra laughs, whenever there's hostiles, JB a blob of missile spammers and warp to the edge of the bubbles to kill the hostiles. The only worry you have as an alliance is a concerted effort against your sov.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:55:00 -
[3177]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 15:50:53 Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 15:48:51
Originally by: Sakura Nihil will it still be "hard" for them defending their space in 0.0?
Get Sov 3 in a constellation with limited access (Less than three entrypoints), and in a system within JB range (preferably in an outpost system or very near to one). Minotuar in Fountain is perfect for this (Also, PXF-RF )
Put 6-12 large T2 bubbles on either side of the gates into said constellation.
Put Jump Bridges in the prime carebearing systems, linking to the entrypoint and the non-constellation sov 3 system.
Laugh as roaming gangs have absolutely zero effect on any activity at all. For extra laughs, whenever there's hostiles, JB a blob of missile spammers and warp to the edge of the bubbles to kill the hostiles. The only worry you have as an alliance is a concerted effort against your sov.
This is the future of 0.0 in Eve. And it blows.
It was a rhetorical question, btw .
I actually just posted a bit on that very topic here, all I can say to those people who still want to roam "alliance-held space" is that you probably want to fly cheap, with a lot of Falcons, with cloaks on your ships . Or some combination thereof.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 15:59:00 -
[3178]
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:09:27 Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:07:41
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 29/07/2008 15:06:27
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
so now this is the new argument against the nanonerf,
"Guys! just cause the Devs may have made a bad decision, it took them awhile to slip and fall into their own p00p, they aren't gonna clean the mess up, just give them a napkin and tell them good job"
5 fighters for carriers anyone?
STFU with this illogicaly response. The changes are the death to PVP in this game, and clearly were not ment to solely represent an adjustment of the ludicrious speed. they are a complete and utter fail and joke that the majority of players will refuse to choke down
once again, lololol @ you idiots who claim the solo/small gang stuff is PURELY RELIANT on a nanogang/nanofit....ffs - i manage to solo all the time in non-nano crap...i dont find it hard, why do you?
cus i spent xxx isk on it...bawwww...
tough shit, leave the game you god awful idiot...resorting to 'WE WONT TAKE IT' go on strike, see who cracks first.
oh and try to post constructively, rather than just screaming STFU I DONT LIKE WHAT YOURE SAYING!!!!
i made a point, i believe to be valid, counter it you tit.
Edit, no, it inst an arguement AGAINST IT...christ learn to read the posts...
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Pushtan-kills.html
72 kills to 51 losses. You do well for soloing. As usual your point is meaningless. Point by the /me, the tit, has been made.
thats why you need to STFU, you don't know what your talking about, and wreak of failsauce.
Now the discussion is about isk? as if we need to go into the have and have nots?
See thats the problem for horrible videogame players, like you. The game mirrors RL too much. If you suck, you die alot and can't get anywhere. You waste RL money on GTC purchases only to see those ratting ravens and your PVP drakes lit up. Does a ferrari beat a ford, in nearly every case. If you don't spend the money to fit your ships properly you're wasting your time.
Grind in this game is time, time to wait for skillz to finish while you PVP in ships within your level and hopefully learn the lessons so that you can play with the big boys in the near future, not sit in a pool of your own p1ss and cry for nerfs every time you get slaughtered.
Eve is like a Le Mans race, except with gunz. Alot of different classes of Pilots, with regards to skill, ships, wealth, all competing at the same time. You can't possibly begin to think cause you suck, the Devs should make the game so you can win do you?
Lets put the nano nerf into something primitive that you can understand
Its like completely dumbing down the competition. lets say you enter a spelling competition with people age 4 to 40, and their age is the number of letters possible in their given words.
Doesn't sound to fair huh? well a drake with the 4 mil in SP and 50 mil under the hood can easily kill pretty much everything because of these stupid changes. So try again ret3rds.
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:00:00 -
[3179]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 15:50:53 Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 15:48:51
Originally by: Sakura Nihil will it still be "hard" for them defending their space in 0.0?
Get Sov 3 in a constellation with limited access (Less than three entrypoints), and in a system within JB range (preferably in an outpost system or very near to one). Minotuar in Fountain is perfect for this (Also, PXF-RF )
Put 6-12 large T2 bubbles on either side of the gates into said constellation.
Put Jump Bridges in the prime carebearing systems, linking to the entrypoint and the non-constellation sov 3 system.
Laugh as roaming gangs have absolutely zero effect on any activity at all. For extra laughs, whenever there's hostiles, JB a blob of missile spammers and warp to the edge of the bubbles to kill the hostiles. The only worry you have as an alliance is a concerted effort against your sov.
This is the future of 0.0 in Eve. And it blows.
Christ, if you were a strategy planner or FC for a 0.0 alliance your alliance would last about a week (if everyone had not already quit due to boredom of sitting waiting for that gang to get stuck in your bubbles) |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:05:00 -
[3180]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Christ, if you were a strategy planner or FC for a 0.0 alliance your alliance would last about a week (if everyone had not already quit due to boredom of sitting waiting for that gang to get stuck in your bubbles)
Technically it would have to last three weeks, for Sov 3 to flick on
You also missed the point entirely. Currently, to mitigate all risk for carebear activities in 0.0, people either operate in POS/Outpost systems or cloak. By reducing the ability to move through space quickly, you allow barricadable constellations to be secured to an even greater extent.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
|
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:05:00 -
[3181]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Where's this new Nozh post btw?
Nowhere, CCP are ignoring this thread and only saying things on Sisi.
Unfortunately that means that they *could* just deny anything like that.
From what I understand is that this patch will go ahead as announced and tweaking will be done over the next months.
|
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:09:00 -
[3182]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
The point is, that this is not the end of all Gang PvP. The Vagas are still faster then most other ships, they can still get out as victors when handled right, but they need to be a lot more careful when choosing their targets and an overheated faction MWD is no longer the: Get away unharmed, Card.
So the sky is not falling. You can still adapt
Granted, the sky is not falling.
You see, that's exactly what the whole argument is. Vagas and nano ships to have a get away, live to fight another day, get the hell out of Dodge button. But that's all they have. They have no tank, very little DPS compared to similar hulls, and they cost much more (relatively speaking) to similar hulls as well. They can only cause damage in numbers, picking off certain targets.
I don't think that is overpowered.
Oh, and I am adapting, just trying to decide whether to go Amarr or Caldari Cruiser. Probably Amarr though cause I am sick and tired of charges, hehe
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:10:00 -
[3183]
Originally by: Matrixcvd Ad Hominem attack
I can play too. You are a numpty.
I dont care how much you spent to be invulnernable. it just shows you have more isk than sense. I dont care that you can no longer go where you want, when you want. Thats how EVE was before the speed ratcheted up to stupid levels.
EVE is like a Le Mans race? WTF is going on in your head? Le Mans was won by a diesel, so translating that into EVE the best ship should be a Typhoon or something.
Also if you are going to use a spelling competition as a simile in your post FFS learn to spell. |
Alek Row
Minmatar Silent Step
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:10:00 -
[3184]
Check the Game Development Forum, there is a sticky there.
|
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:14:00 -
[3185]
Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 29/07/2008 16:15:15 Bleh.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:15:00 -
[3186]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 14:35:38 Test on Sisi Plated thorax accelerate 0 to 1200m/s 23sec with two speed implants MY-2 and Zor
wtb gallente tears lolol
|
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:16:00 -
[3187]
Originally by: Demus DaVet I don't think that is overpowered.
Thats why we are all in here, some beating their chests, some talking patiently, some crying. In your opinion is speed overpowered? this question is like an arse, and the answer is all over these forums.
Quote:
Oh, and I am adapting, just trying to decide whether to go Amarr or Caldari Cruiser. Probably Amarr though cause I am sick and tired of charges, hehe
Yeh, starting on Amarr as well, I hope to hell CCP dont fiddle with them for a bit. |
Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:20:00 -
[3188]
Originally by: Max CAOD A Heavy Missile currently is awesome. It hits frigates. oh ye.. The all mwd around in 2-3k+++++. But they have an explosion radii that would hit a frigate.. oh yeah... They are all nanoed doing 3k-10km/sec and the heavy missile (8mil in missile launcher operation) hits the target painted sacrilege for 2 damage (faction scourge heavy missile, 1 explosion velocity rig). This is a MAXed cerberus. A cruiser doing anything above 1200ish m/s will still avoid almost all heavy missile, cruise, heavy assault missile damage, and ofc immune to torps. Anything flying over 2.5km/s will take just about 0 damage.
Making sure every nanoship ingame isn't immune to missiles won't hurt. Nano does deserve this nerf as it's currently the best fitting for ANY frigate/cruiser sized vessel and many bc sized and even some BS sized vessels. Being so fast you avoid almost all risks is ridiculous. And giving the only counter to nanoships (basicly) is the things you see in a nanogang. That's right. Recons (most nanoed). "Heavy Neuts makes sure nanoes can't kill nothing" any pilot in a HAC that engage the odd ratting raven with heavy neuts... can disengage before the MWD cycle (and the deceleration when MWD fades) is completed. "they always web me and I die in my nanoship :(:(:(" k
Overall. Nanoes does deserve a nerf. Some ships, like ceptors SHOULD be very hard to track/do damage to. Speedtanking should be viable, but not the only good alternative. However, Nano ships should not be made worthless, because it's one of the BEST PARTS OF EVE atm, the most fun of all no doubt. And I'm sure CCP won't make em worthless either, just making it bit more balanced.
You should try t2 precision missiles then. You do know Vagabond pilots use Barrage ammo exactly for that reason. Why should you use T1 or named ?
I am also pretty sure a Vagabond will never break your maxed Cerberus tank just as you won't break his (for the 1,5 minutes it will last). Exactly why is that overpowered, can you explain it to me ? Unless you're talking about getting ganked by 5 Vagas, Ishtars, Sacrileges etc when anyone would die to anything when 1:5, that's just EVE.
As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:22:00 -
[3189]
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not, ISK should never be a factor in game balance
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:27:00 -
[3190]
Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 29/07/2008 16:27:40
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not. Spending in game currency on a few specific items should not make anyone for all intents and purposes invulnerable. |
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:34:00 -
[3191]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Matrixcvd Ad Hominem attack
Since there is no argument, or clearly factual claim, it can't be ad hominem, ret3rd.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
I dont care how much you spent to be invulnernable. it just shows you have more isk than sense.
nano is not invulnerable, you are pathetic at PVP.
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
EVE is like a Le Mans race? WTF is going on in your head? Le Mans was won by a diesel, so translating that into EVE the best ship should be a Typhoon or something.
I guess the idiot mind is too much for me to interact with. since you quote wikipedia try this and maybe the short analogy might begin to sink in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:36:00 -
[3192]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not. Spending in game currency on a few specific items should not make anyone for all intents and purposes invulnerable.
Thats why we have webber ships, nuets and all the other items that balance the standard or even the excessive speed fits out at the moment.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:37:00 -
[3193]
Originally by: Haakelen Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 16:29:26
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not, ISK should never be a factor in game balance
vvv good thing we don't have things like motherships and titans eh
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 29/07/2008 16:27:40
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not. Spending in game currency on a few specific items should not make anyone for all intents and purposes invulnerable.
If someone spends literally days of time trying to improve their ship, they should be allowed some of an edge over those who don't. When it comes down to it a 4 billion isk ship dies just as quick as a 200m isk ship when it's webbed by a Rapier. _______________
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Vitelius
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:41:00 -
[3194]
Ok, while I'm not pro-nano (but I do fly nanos as well) guy and at first I was YAY for speed nerf and thought that maybe we'll get something good out of this... GOD NO.
On what grounds is there a huge overhaul of just about EVERYTHING speed related when the most logical first step would be fine tuning? Scrams killing MWDs, reactivation delay on MWDs... completely wild ideas and totally uncalled for. You're trying to do too many things here, too much nerfing involved right now, it just can not work properly.
Please put some proper thought into these changes. The idea is to balance, not pile bricks into the other side of the scales but small bits, one at a time. I hope you test every single change very carefully before you even remotely think of bringing all these changes in.
What I'm seeing now is death to speed tanking (unless you have billions to throw in to get a tiny advantage). The changes are too drastic and should be toned down. While I hate the merry go around nanoing at ludicrous speeds, those speeds have been turned into pathetic speeds. Vaga, probably the only HAC that is meant to be speed tanked is a slow boat now - was this really intended? I would understand the other HACs but even the Vaga can't reach the speeds it really should.
If the changes were be subtle and well thought I would support this nerf from the bottom of my heart... but with these ludicrous changes I can't possibly support it. This just won't work as it now is.
---
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Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:41:00 -
[3195]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 29/07/2008 16:27:40
Originally by: Demus DaVet As for the 10km Vagas and Sacs, you do understand that they cost somewhere around 4bil right ? Don't you think they should have a little edge over you ?
Of course not. Spending in game currency on a few specific items should not make anyone for all intents and purposes invulnerable.
10km/s Vagas and/or Sacrileges are not invulnerable. They can still die to a good gatecamp. They can still be tackled. The Vaga, with its short range, is not even a problem. The Rapier/Huginn/Sacrilege/Curse with a very expensive fit are powerful with a skilled pilot, but they are still susceptible to neutralizers, can still be tackled, and killed.
ISK not being a factor in game balance is a valid point, but it is grossly overused until it loses meaning.
Perhaps stacking should be adjusted to lower overall speeds, but this incarnation of the patch is just silly - removing many reasons for fitting more expensive modules on your ship to aid survivability. This applies to inties as well as the current nano-cruisers.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:47:00 -
[3196]
The only thing good PVP pilots are invulnerable to is stupidity.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:49:00 -
[3197]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:09:27 Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:07:41
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 29/07/2008 15:06:27
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
so now this is the new argument against the nanonerf,
"Guys! just cause the Devs may have made a bad decision, it took them awhile to slip and fall into their own p00p, they aren't gonna clean the mess up, just give them a napkin and tell them good job"
5 fighters for carriers anyone?
STFU with this illogicaly response. The changes are the death to PVP in this game, and clearly were not ment to solely represent an adjustment of the ludicrious speed. they are a complete and utter fail and joke that the majority of players will refuse to choke down
once again, lololol @ you idiots who claim the solo/small gang stuff is PURELY RELIANT on a nanogang/nanofit....ffs - i manage to solo all the time in non-nano crap...i dont find it hard, why do you?
cus i spent xxx isk on it...bawwww...
tough shit, leave the game you god awful idiot...resorting to 'WE WONT TAKE IT' go on strike, see who cracks first.
oh and try to post constructively, rather than just screaming STFU I DONT LIKE WHAT YOURE SAYING!!!!
i made a point, i believe to be valid, counter it you tit.
Edit, no, it inst an arguement AGAINST IT...christ learn to read the posts...
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Pushtan-kills.html
72 kills to 51 losses. You do well for soloing. As usual your point is meaningless. Point by the /me, the tit, has been made.
thats why you need to STFU, you don't know what your talking about, and wreak of failsauce.
Now the discussion is about isk? as if we need to go into the have and have nots?
See thats the problem for horrible videogame players, like you. The game mirrors RL too much. If you suck, you die alot and can't get anywhere. You waste RL money on GTC purchases only to see those ratting ravens and your PVP drakes lit up. Does a ferrari beat a ford, in nearly every case. If you don't spend the money to fit your ships properly you're wasting your time.
Grind in this game is time, time to wait for skillz to finish while you PVP in ships within your level and hopefully learn the lessons so that you can play with the big boys in the near future, not sit in a pool of your own p1ss and cry for nerfs every time you get slaughtered.
Eve is like a Le Mans race, except with gunz. Alot of different classes of Pilots, with regards to skill, ships, wealth, all competing at the same time. You can't possibly begin to think cause you suck, the Devs should make the game so you can win do you?
Lets put the nano nerf into something primitive that you can understand
Its like completely dumbing down the competition. lets say you enter a spelling competition with people age 4 to 40, and their age is the number of letters possible in their given words.
Doesn't sound to fair huh? well a drake with the 4 mil in SP and 50 mil under the hood can easily kill pretty much everything because of these stupid changes. So try again ret3rds.
oh god, 4chan tit on board...not suprising seeing as youre tri...oh wait, was that a personal attack? it was indeed, now Shut. The Hell. Up with the personal/killboard stats and prepare to realise:
NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK/SAY/DO YOU WONT SURVIVE THIS UNLESS YOU ADAPT LITTLE MAN.
K, now, once again, back the ****ing subject at hand...how hard is it...
End of the little 'war' you have on me with words. dipshit
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:51:00 -
[3198]
Originally by: NemisisEnforcer You know I didn't even realize it at first but CCP Nozh is the same fool that came up with the proposed and failed carrier nerf as well. CCP you should not let this guy come up with ideas anymore as he always gets you in trouble with your players. WE MAKE EVE WHAT IT IS. Without us you are nothing and your little "don't make I quit" threats remark Mr Nozh was cute. Eat shit. You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
Wow.
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:51:00 -
[3199]
Originally by: Matrixcvd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
And I give you Diesel won Le Mans the last 3 years, who would have thought it
Originally by: Matrixcvd Since there is no argument, or clearly factual claim, it can't be ad hominem, ret3rd.
nano is not invulnerable, you are pathetic at PVP.
I guess the idiot mind is too much for me to interact with
From wikipedia: Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent
Sorry about the big words in there, you can look them up in one of the books at school, you might get your teacher to get the book down for you if its on a high shelf.
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:53:00 -
[3200]
Originally by: Wolf Parade How drunk do I have to be for this to make sense?
Im afraid alcohol is not enough...
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KayO
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:58:00 -
[3201]
okies iv been on sisi and tbh i dont realy like it, i think the ammount of changes your doing to solve a small 'problem' is a bit ott.
The web change is horrible, even tho most if not all ships are slower, keeping cruiser sized and below ships in web range with a bs/bc is quite hard to do if u catch them close to the max range of your web even with overlaod, and hitting them is realy gimped, bc's not as much because they can get away with fitting a warp scram and web but a hype that can only go 900m/s with a mwd now needs even more so a 24km point.
MWD reactivation is probably the worst change in this patch (tho only because i dont have a snake set i feel sorry for the guys who do) there are a lot of ships even without nanos that rely heavly on a mwd for either dictating range or getting to range, in fights you may have to do this many times in quick secsesion and now your forced to either fit to perma run your mwd which is impossible with a usable bc/bs fit or fit an ab, and on the suject of the afterburner change they were bad befor the patch, now you have lowerd thier speed increase they are worse, a hype with an afterburner goes a wooping 120m/s so an unnano'd cruiser with no mwd/ab can kite and laugh at you, cruisers and bc's dont get the speed boost from them to get any kind of transersal unless right next to a target and will be sitting ducks, interceptors are the only class that 'mite' find a use for an ab, but seeing as how intys are now ment to be the speed machines i dont think anybody who dosnt just engage at gates/stations will fit 1.
On the whole and if you could please ignor my alliance name when i say this this is quite a bad change, if you had simply added a stacking penalty across all speed mods od's/nano/i-stab + thier respective rigs, brought poly rig bonus' in line with other rigs and maybe changed x-ins boosters so a hac for example could only be fitted with 2 polys and a couple of ods befor stacking made any futher mods irrelevent you could have halfed the speed of most ships and not have to waste time rebalancing a quater of the game which i feel is unneeded as there are a lot of areas and mods that realy realy do need a going over.
so what now? the end of roaming gangs? no i dont think so, but the dynamics will change, hacs are to become what assault frigs are now, look good on paper but in practice they are to slow and fragile to be worth using. Why take a 100m hac out that cant be insured when a bc will be a tad, and i mean only a little bit slower, but can fit a better tank, deal more dps, is a third of the price, and is fully insurable.
rethink this, do a simple change to 'balance' becasue the time taken to mega nerf the whole lot, then balance the gimp mods that come from it could be spent fixing the stuff allready in game thats broken or usless, stuff like sensor damps, cyno jammers, black ops, tube tanking, smartbombs, almost all micro variations of modules im sure theres more but you get what im getting at im sure.
im sure theres lots of spelling mistakes in that wall of text sorry
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Tekki Sandan
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:01:00 -
[3202]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Tekki Sandan CCP killing solo and small gang pvp one nerf at a time.
where getting very close to blobs online!
your killing the solo gamer!
LONEWOLF FOR LIFE! this game or the next
Explain to me why, you, ''LONEWOLF FOR LIFE'' cant play in another type of ship????
are you so awesome, you can only play as a sniper in BF games? only a ... i dunno...sneaky whatever in others? cant you use BC's? are cruisers beneath you?
i can fly every ship in game on one account our another, in "BF" games im the who kills you so much you get so fustrated you want to turn the game off.
its all the industrials and the guys who loose there ratting ships because there too dumb to watch local that are the cause of this nerf.
Speed tanking was a real option, catch a raven in a belt and your doing over 4k he cant touch you, armor tanked demios, catch a raven and in a belt and he will still tank you.
are we going to nerf armor reps now? i think not! the reason where nerfing nanos is because all the nuubs who cant watch local are too low skilled to have a ship that can counter nanos, falcons rapiers and curses. EVERY ship in eve has its counter, and this nerf is simply saying every ship in eve can counter a speed tank.
its retarted tbh.
are we nerfing cloaks so that recons cant sit in hostile systems afk so people cant rat? no. are we un-nerfing the Black ops BS's because the cant carry fuel? no.
CCP should stop trying to NERF things and just BOOST other things.
NO TO THE NERF YES TO THE BOOST.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:01:00 -
[3203]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Matrixcvd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
And I give you Diesel won Le Mans the last 3 years, who would have thought it
Originally by: Matrixcvd Since there is no argument, or clearly factual claim, it can't be ad hominem, ret3rd.
nano is not invulnerable, you are pathetic at PVP.
I guess the idiot mind is too much for me to interact with
From wikipedia: Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent
Sorry about the big words in there, you can look them up in one of the books at school, you might get your teacher to get the book down for you if its on a high shelf.
Your right it was a ad hominem attack.
And he is right you are a r*tard.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:05:00 -
[3204]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Matrixcvd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
And I give you Diesel won Le Mans the last 3 years, who would have thought it
Originally by: Matrixcvd Since there is no argument, or clearly factual claim, it can't be ad hominem, ret3rd.
nano is not invulnerable, you are pathetic at PVP.
I guess the idiot mind is too much for me to interact with
From wikipedia: Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent
Sorry about the big words in there, you can look them up in one of the books at school, you might get your teacher to get the book down for you if its on a high shelf.
double the picard for U!
the concept of my analogy was to stress the different classes of pilots on the same track is all. Take your diesel engine and your obvious racism toward spark plugs and blow yourself out the soot shoot. BTW, not surprising Audi wins in that type of race since it's one of the only major car manufactures to partake in it... your special, you know it!
and again, the attack must be based in response to a factual argument it says it right there you just didnt quote the whole paragraph cause you likes to argue on the internetz... keep it up
NOTHING WRONG WITH NANOS!!!!! JUST STUPID PEOPLE PLAYING EVE. They should be handing out free diapers with every GTC... keep the wetting problem down
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 17:07:00 -
[3205]
Originally by: KayO okies iv been on sisi and tbh i dont realy like it, i think the ammount of changes your doing to solve a small 'problem' is a bit ott.
The web change is horrible, even tho most if not all ships are slower, keeping cruiser sized and below ships in web range with a bs/bc is quite hard to do if u catch them close to the max range of your web even with overlaod, and hitting them is realy gimped, bc's not as much because they can get away with fitting a warp scram and web but a hype that can only go 900m/s with a mwd now needs even more so a 24km point.
MWD reactivation is probably the worst change in this patch (tho only because i dont have a snake set i feel sorry for the guys who do) there are a lot of ships even without nanos that rely heavly on a mwd for either dictating range or getting to range, in fights you may have to do this many times in quick secsesion and now your forced to either fit to perma run your mwd which is impossible with a usable bc/bs fit or fit an ab, and on the suject of the afterburner change they were bad befor the patch, now you have lowerd thier speed increase they are worse, a hype with an afterburner goes a wooping 120m/s so an unnano'd cruiser with no mwd/ab can kite and laugh at you, cruisers and bc's dont get the speed boost from them to get any kind of transersal unless right next to a target and will be sitting ducks, interceptors are the only class that 'mite' find a use for an ab, but seeing as how intys are now ment to be the speed machines i dont think anybody who dosnt just engage at gates/stations will fit 1.
On the whole and if you could please ignor my alliance name when i say this this is quite a bad change, if you had simply added a stacking penalty across all speed mods od's/nano/i-stab + thier respective rigs, brought poly rig bonus' in line with other rigs and maybe changed x-ins boosters so a hac for example could only be fitted with 2 polys and a couple of ods befor stacking made any futher mods irrelevent you could have halfed the speed of most ships and not have to waste time rebalancing a quater of the game which i feel is unneeded as there are a lot of areas and mods that realy realy do need a going over.
so what now? the end of roaming gangs? no i dont think so, but the dynamics will change, hacs are to become what assault frigs are now, look good on paper but in practice they are to slow and fragile to be worth using. Why take a 100m hac out that cant be insured when a bc will be a tad, and i mean only a little bit slower, but can fit a better tank, deal more dps, is a third of the price, and is fully insurable.
rethink this, do a simple change to 'balance' becasue the time taken to mega nerf the whole lot, then balance the gimp mods that come from it could be spent fixing the stuff allready in game thats broken or usless, stuff like sensor damps, cyno jammers, black ops, tube tanking, smartbombs, almost all micro variations of modules im sure theres more but you get what im getting at im sure.
im sure theres lots of spelling mistakes in that wall of text sorry
Good write up, and I agree, the nerf bat bit too deeply. My mains favourite ships are sluggish to say the least, BC's may be where the fun is in future (no, not a bloody drake) ... I dont think any one of the pople calling for a nano nerf expected anything like this, in fact I am sure I had a nano nerf thread last month that asked for exactly what you mentioned above. |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:15:00 -
[3206]
Originally by: Matrixcvd double the picard for U!
You did that yourself? ooo its very good. Did the teacher help you, even a teensy bit?
Originally by: Matrixcvd NOTHING WRONG WITH NANOS!!!!!
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:56:00 -
[3207]
For the most part, I don't have a dog in this hunt... I am an industrialist...
The one point I did want to mention and agree with (For purely Logical reasons) is that a Warp Scrambler would also scramble a micro WARP drive... no affect on an afterburner that just increases your speed, but the mini warps that the MWD gives you are disrupted...
This would mean that each module would have a counter... Webifier <-> MWD to get out of Web range faster... Warp Disruptor <-> AB to get out of range...
Seems logical to me...
--------*****--------
"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
THRASHER23
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:24:00 -
[3208]
humm no response from ccp for 10's of pages now...stfu and deal with it mode? For death and glory
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attitude man
Minmatar eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:30:00 -
[3209]
obviously Nozh dont play the gamee, or he is a bob or goon
bd
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 18:30:00 -
[3210]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan because there too dumb to watch local that are the cause of this nerf.
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
because all the nuubs who cant watch local are too low skilled to have a ship that can counter nanos
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
are we nerfing cloaks so that recons cant sit in hostile systems afk so people cant rat? no.
Local isn't supposed to be intel tool, devs stated that repeatedly, but sadly, they did nothing to change it yet.
Originally by: Tekki Sandan Speed tanking was a real option, catch a raven in a belt and your doing over 4k he cant touch you, armor tanked demios, catch a raven and in a belt and he will still tank you. are we going to nerf armor reps now? i think not! the reason where nerfing nanos is because all the nuubs who cant watch local are too low skilled to have a ship that can counter nanos, falcons rapiers and curses. EVERY ship in eve has its counter, and this nerf is simply saying every ship in eve can counter a speed tank.
Everyone has counters to armor or shield tanking - they are called weapons, why should speed tank require special counters? It is fine when it reduces damage, but it's not supposed to nullify it. And speedtank even works as warpstab at no extra slot cost, ain't it cool?
_____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:32:00 -
[3211]
Originally by: THRASHER23 humm no response from ccp for 10's of pages now...stfu and deal with it mode?
If this quote was actually posted here by Nohz-
"I also want to point out something nobody seems to have mentioned regarding warp scramblers and them possibly being overpowered. Prior to the changes the stasis webifier reduced your speed by 90%, without touching your huge signature radius. So you were slow and had a huge signature radius.
While the warp scrambler + stasis webifier after the changes does indeed reduce your speed more than a -90% webifier, your signature radius is small."
-and it elicited the response it deserved, then I can understand why they might not want to come back here. Can I assume, without digging through the last 20 pages or so, that enough "corrections" were posted regarding this supposed benefit as to ensure a proper understanding between the devs and players was reached? ________________
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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:54:00 -
[3212]
Dear CCP,
Please don't do open heart surgery on a five year old game.
Adapt, yes, but drastically changing the advantages the only racial advantage that the Minmatars have ? NO
If you continue with the proposed changes you will totally imbalance the game, a balance that you have been working on for over 5 years now.
So just adjust stuff and not completely change it.
Who's idea was it that a WS should disengage a MWD ? Whats next ? A webber that can scramble too ? A module with a dual effect, thats a serious WTF? --
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:13:00 -
[3213]
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Originally by: THRASHER23 humm no response from ccp for 10's of pages now...stfu and deal with it mode?
If this quote was actually posted here by Nohz-
"I also want to point out something nobody seems to have mentioned regarding warp scramblers and them possibly being overpowered. Prior to the changes the stasis webifier reduced your speed by 90%, without touching your huge signature radius. So you were slow and had a huge signature radius.
While the warp scrambler + stasis webifier after the changes does indeed reduce your speed more than a -90% webifier, your signature radius is small."
-and it elicited the response it deserved, then I can understand why they might not want to come back here. Can I assume, without digging through the last 20 pages or so, that enough "corrections" were posted regarding this supposed benefit as to ensure a proper understanding between the devs and players was reached?
eh, dood, pro tip: if you cant concievably get away with the MWD you shut it off and tank your best? s
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:15:00 -
[3214]
Biggest problem with Nano vs everything else is it is only fun for the Nano gang. My only hope for this patch/nerf is that it makes small gang combat a little faster (paced!) with a bit more action.
There's nothing I hate more than sitting out with a group of huggins/rapiers/neut domix WAITING for someone to POSSIBLY, MAYBE come into range.. and just when the two groups meet.. they are suddenlt 250km apart. Wow.. fun. Zzz.
My hope is that the speed fix means more roaming gangs coming into direct contact with eachother when they decide to fight straight up. Guerilla tactics do not include the small stealthy band of fighters engaging a 20 man fleet and winning. They do include finding lone stragglers in space and killing them.. and I have no problems with that at all.
I want to see HAC/AF groups together fighting furiously 5 on 5 or whatever with wrecks littering the battlefield with the less skilled pilots. THAT sounds fun to me.
Make that happen CCP. Gentle with the nerf bat. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:15:00 -
[3215]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Where's this new Nozh post btw?
Nowhere, CCP are ignoring this thread and only saying things on Sisi.
Unfortunately that means that they *could* just deny anything like that.
From what I understand is that this patch will go ahead as announced and tweaking will be done over the next months.
Wrong. That's almost to the point of blatant trolling. There are fresh Dev posts in various threads on the Game Development forum. In particular there's a feedback thread with actual stats from player testing in it. Go read, perhaps.
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Turkantho
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:42:00 -
[3216]
Edited by: Turkantho on 29/07/2008 19:42:06
Quote: [16:30:10] CCP Nozh > we're taking a look at missile speed and explosion velocity to balance it out.
from a chatlog prolly posted in this thread as well
I got a proposal, how a bout not nerfing things so hard that you have to nerf other things to compensate the first nerf ? ________
Sometimes paranoiaÆs just having all the facts.
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Jimmy 4chan
H A V O C The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:52:00 -
[3217]
The more I think about it, the worse this change is. Just removing mass from the equation is enough to nerf every HAC into oblivion while still making intys/****tors viable and fast. The scram "feature" that turns off mwds is passable I guess, it certainly nerfs nanos, and is a huge boost to the Gallente Recons.
Beyond that however, the changes are horrible. THE worst idea in the whole thing was mwd reactivation delay. If you think this is a good idea, I want you to tell me how many hours a week you play this game.
Yes Devs, I want an answer to that. If you want this reactivation delay change to go through, I want you to honestly tell me how many hours you play per week.
I think it's very few, so in that case, listen to experience and reason, please. Nerfing HACs and making it impossible to reasonably fit more than 4-5 speed mods is fine, that's already a huge nerf to high end speeds. But some of the other changes are crap. Oh also, leave MWDs alone, you're changing the 1 mod that is more crucial to most 0.0 setups than anything else. If you want us to use afterburners, boost them. Don't nerf the alternatives just because the afterburner sucks.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:54:00 -
[3218]
Originally by: Pushtan
oh god, 4chan tit on board...not suprising seeing as youre tri...oh wait, was that a personal attack? it was indeed, now Shut. The Hell. Up with the personal/killboard stats and prepare to realise:
NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK/SAY/DO YOU WONT SURVIVE THIS UNLESS YOU ADAPT LITTLE MAN.
K, now, once again, back the ****ing subject at hand...how hard is it...
End of the little 'war' you have on me with words. dipshit
I've already adapted to nanos, that's why I can kill them and you can't. You refuse to use the ways of killing nanos that already exists and DEMAND that CCP adapt the game for you instead of you actually learning how to play the game. _______________
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:16:00 -
[3219]
Originally by: NemisisEnforcer You know I didn't even realize it at first but CCP Nozh is the same fool that came up with the proposed and failed carrier nerf as well. CCP you should not let this guy come up with ideas anymore as he always gets you in trouble with your players. WE MAKE EVE WHAT IT IS. Without us you are nothing and your little "don't make I quit" threats remark Mr Nozh was cute. Eat shit. You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
Nope, it wasn't Nozh. He-Who-Should-Not-Be-Named was ZuluPark. I still have the Raggedy Andy costume for him, and Michael Jackson still has the Rhopinal-laced Jesus Juice waiting for him. Grandma might not have paid her internet bill so the live feed might not be ready, however.
I fully support this change. Ships should not be allowed to fly so fast that no weapon can hit them.
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Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:51:00 -
[3220]
Originally by: Princess Jodi I fully support this change. Ships should not be allowed to fly so fast that no weapon can hit them.
Webs dont need tracking, I don't understand what you mean.
_______________
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:55:00 -
[3221]
I think something people forget is that the REASON speed was imbalanced was not because of the invulnerability factor. It's that Speed and the potential for speed was held in such regard that ships with little potential for speed or a basic inability to effectively engage a speedy target had no purpose in much of Eve PVP. Imbalance occurs when you have no justifiable reason to do something a different way.
Way back in the early days of Eve, before stacking nerfs the 8 Heatsink carrying Amarr BS was the undisputed master of PVP. There was no reason to fly ANYTHING else - you simply couldn't compete with that level of damage output.
Invulnerability speed, though annoying when encountered was hardly common. Assault Missile Launchers with flare rigs let me hurt most nano ships out there but the pace and tempo of the battle was still being dictated by the ships my Cerberus is built do take out. Could I get kills? Sure - but only if the other guy made a mistake. Personally, I was satisfied finding a ship that could actually do ANYTHING to the increasingly common nano boat in the Caldari lineup.
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:56:00 -
[3222]
Originally by: Princess Jodi
Originally by: NemisisEnforcer You know I didn't even realize it at first but CCP Nozh is the same fool that came up with the proposed and failed carrier nerf as well. CCP you should not let this guy come up with ideas anymore as he always gets you in trouble with your players. WE MAKE EVE WHAT IT IS. Without us you are nothing and your little "don't make I quit" threats remark Mr Nozh was cute. Eat shit. You drastically change game play and people will quit as they have invested time, skill training, isk, real money, and a lot of thought into their setups and for you to just take that away is bullshit.
Nope, it wasn't Nozh. He-Who-Should-Not-Be-Named was ZuluPark. I still have the Raggedy Andy costume for him, and Michael Jackson still has the Rhopinal-laced Jesus Juice waiting for him. Grandma might not have paid her internet bill so the live feed might not be ready, however.
I fully support this change. Ships should not be allowed to fly so fast that no weapon can hit them.
I fully support there being an intelligence test before your ability to post on caod...
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:06:00 -
[3223]
Originally by: Jimmy 4chan Oh also, leave MWDs alone, you're changing the 1 mod that is more crucial to most 0.0 setups than anything else. If you want us to use afterburners, boost them. Don't nerf the alternatives just because the afterburner sucks.
Isn't that exactly why they want to change it?
_____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:07:00 -
[3224]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:09:27 Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 15:07:41
Originally by: Matrixcvd Edited by: Matrixcvd on 29/07/2008 15:06:27
Originally by: Pushtan Edited by: Pushtan on 29/07/2008 13:46:18 Guys, why would they invest the hours and whatnot into making something thyere NOT going to put out?
They may change it a little, but not cancel it...this thing is GOING TO HAPPEN.
ed; spelling
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Pushtan-kills.html
72 kills to 51 losses. You do well for soloing. As usual your point is meaningless. Point by the /me, the tit, has been made.
thats why you need to STFU, you don't know what your talking about, and wreak of failsauce.
Now the discussion is about isk? as if we need to go into the have and have nots?
See thats the problem for horrible videogame players, like you. The game mirrors RL too much. If you suck, you die alot and can't get anywhere. You waste RL money on GTC purchases only to see those ratting ravens and your PVP drakes lit up. Does a ferrari beat a ford, in nearly every case. If you don't spend the money to fit your ships properly you're wasting your time.
Grind in this game is time, time to wait for skillz to finish while you PVP in ships within your level and hopefully learn the lessons so that you can play with the big boys in the near future, not sit in a pool of your own p1ss and cry for nerfs every time you get slaughtered.
Eve is like a Le Mans race, except with gunz. Alot of different classes of Pilots, with regards to skill, ships, wealth, all competing at the same time. You can't possibly begin to think cause you suck, the Devs should make the game so you can win do you?
Lets put the nano nerf into something primitive that you can understand
Its like completely dumbing down the competition. lets say you enter a spelling competition with people age 4 to 40, and their age is the number of letters possible in their given words.
Doesn't sound to fair huh? well a drake with the 4 mil in SP and 50 mil under the hood can easily kill pretty much everything because of these stupid changes. So try again ret3rds.
oh god, 4chan tit on board...not suprising seeing as youre tri...oh wait, was that a personal attack? it was indeed, now Shut. The Hell. Up with the personal/killboard stats and prepare to realise:
NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK/SAY/DO YOU WONT SURVIVE THIS UNLESS YOU ADAPT LITTLE MAN.
K, now, once again, back the ****ing subject at hand...how hard is it...
End of the little 'war' you have on me with words. dipshit
You tried to make a point that you can solo just as effectively in non nano ships as you can in nano ships, the killboard says you suck at pvp and have no clue what your talking about and your only response is shut the hell up and adapt, your just aclueless troll who is clutching to this patch in hopes it will allow you to actualy compete in pvp.
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little Psychobitch
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:10:00 -
[3225]
Give me my ISK back for the Snake Imps, This Nerf is crap
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KennyWar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:12:00 -
[3226]
Edited by: KennyWar on 29/07/2008 21:11:43 me too, Money back and then Nerf,...
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Jimmy 4chan
H A V O C The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:13:00 -
[3227]
Edited by: Jimmy 4chan on 29/07/2008 21:14:35
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jimmy 4chan Oh also, leave MWDs alone, you're changing the 1 mod that is more crucial to most 0.0 setups than anything else. If you want us to use afterburners, boost them. Don't nerf the alternatives just because the afterburner sucks.
Isn't that exactly why they want to change it?
Look I don't mind if they make it viable to fly BS and HACs through 0.0 without mwds, and I certainly would love to be able to fit an afterburner without dying horribly and having everyone laugh over the killmail. But don't you see, everyone will still use mwds with this change? The fact that everyone's speed is getting nerfed makes them even more crucial, and even after all of this, they're NERFING the afterburner. I don't recall anyone saying it's overpowered, but mebbe I haven't been playing the same game CCP has.
Originally by: "CCP" Afterburners are being slightly adjusted to decrease the variation in speed boost from 105-171% to 112.5-162%
Great move.
edit: As posted in the development forum, plugging in a LG snake omega is now worse than plugging in any 1 of the 2 5% speed implants. hahaha I am sooo glad I never bought snakes, however much I've been tempted.
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Necile
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:21:00 -
[3228]
What about a complete change on MWD ? :
The MWD no longer boost speed +500% but alow to warp on a target in the grid (less than 250km of distance). I know it is a complete change but this could introduce new tactics and gameplay.
The only active speed boost would remain the AB. This may solve all problems about incredible speed for some nanoships.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:26:00 -
[3229]
Originally by: Necile What about a complete change on MWD ? :
The MWD no longer boost speed +500% but alow to warp on a target in the grid (less than 250km of distance). I know it is a complete change but this could introduce new tactics and gameplay.
The only active speed boost would remain the AB. This may solve all problems about incredible speed for some nanoships.
You have a good point... Ships in Warp can't shoot, so why should ships in micro warp be able to? In fact you can't even lock while in warp... brings a whole new set of tactics...
--------*****--------
"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:29:00 -
[3230]
crow 3x overdrive injector II 1x 1mn microwarp drive II 2x polycarb I full snake set zors custom navigation hyper link
6.6km/s
I want to vomit.
my tq crow does just over 7km/s with 2x Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II and NO rigs zors custom and 2 3% implants.
and I would still get ****d by a destroyer, and do remember ships don't orbit at maximum velocity.
....
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T2Shuttle
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:36:00 -
[3231]
I think you should rebalance ecm as well. CCP gave all ecm but jamming scripts, and now jamming is way overpowered. It has awesome range AND effect, and the counter, ECCM hardly works.
I suggest a boost to eccm, maybe up to 30-40% and adding scripts to jammers just like other ecm. Have 1 script for jamming strength with nerfed range, and 1 for range with nerfed strength. Don't flame me, I'm only suggesting it be BALANCED with other ecms all of which are obsolete compared to the strength of jamming.
Lets keep in mind that since nano blobs are really the only current defense against falcons, this 'balancing' actually makes falcons stronger since fewer ships will be able to close the gap to actually fight them.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:44:00 -
[3232]
Originally by: Haakelen I used to tell people who asked about Eve that all the negativity was wrong. More SP didn't matter as much, I would say, because you could specialize. You could find a nice ship that you like, get to within 2-5% of a multiyear vet, and work from there. Specialization was the key. The way to success was to NOT crosstrain all to hell. I feel really guilty for giving people that impression, and leading them into a game that will, overnight, do a complete 180 in terms of small-scale PvP. Into a direction that is nothing but negative.
Very good point
SKUNK
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IronGoldenEagle
NightHawk Phantom Fleet The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:49:00 -
[3233]
CCP and Nozh you fail
Could go into a longer description of how I feel about these changes but CCP doesn't care. They dont care that my intereceptor is useless and that I will be flying t2 fitted t1 frigs from now on as there is no point in flying anything else. COuld rant about how I dont have massive amounts of money and dont use snake implants but I feel that if my enemy is willing to spend 800 mil on a ship (and alot more for snakes) to beat my 100 mil ship and he outskills me I think he should deserve to beat me. I could also rave about the MWD as you are now making it practically useless in short range warfare (within 25 km) So tell me whats my intereceptor supposed to do? I can stay out of web range at about 12 km minimum and then lose my MWD and put put around at 1600 m/s? Then they get into range easy and web me down. Lovely. Intereceptors are now useless except to get a quick sacrificial tackle. 22 mil per tackle CCP? Missles shouldnt get a boost, they fine as is imo. NERF THE RIGS CCP NOT ALL SPEED MODULES YOU IDIOTS!!!!! Just trying to make me quit this game one nerf at a time.
Time for the t1 frig blobs. Might as well now, small gang warfare is gonna take a huge hit from this.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:02:00 -
[3234]
Originally by: IronGoldenEagle I could also rave about the MWD as you are now making it practically useless in short range warfare (within 25 km)
Why is it useless at 24km? It's only the warp scramblers (2 pts, range about 9km) that disable MWDs, correct? What did I miss?
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Zanquis
Caldari SUBLIME L.L.C. - AMARR
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:20:00 -
[3235]
I think you nailed the problem right on the head, however I do not like your solution as it will kill Gurilla warfare and speed as a form of defense.
You need to make Speed into a form of tank in this game with its own strenghts and weakness. It should be agile and use evasion (ie increased miss chance) to defend itself giving the speedy pilot the ability to position himself in an advantagous way, and reduce the damage he receives from weapon fire through his speed. However the overall speed at which nano travels needs to be brought down quite a bit, and at no point should a nano ship be immune to damage from weapon fire.
I suggest you create a speed/evasion based tank system and use some ships which have it as a natural tank, such as the Vagabond. These ships should depend on the reduced damage given to them from their speed in the evasion but be unable to fit a strong traditional tank in addition to the speed tank. <a href="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/toys/testgen/6199/"><img src="http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25765.jpg" title="Gunslinger" alt="Gunslinger" border="0" /></a><br />Gunslinger<br / |
jongalt
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:35:00 -
[3236]
lolololololololololololol
-jg.
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Penta
Minmatar SuX ltd.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 23:00:00 -
[3237]
I play this game for almost 6 years now (way back in beta). I never understood why CCP would nerf or buff shit all the time. It's like the laws of physics get changed all the time. Why can't they do it right for a change? Nano ships are fun to fly but they are actually crap. When they go "Ludicrous fast" (God that sounds like Doctor Evil in Austin Powers), they do "Ludicrous" damage, as in practically 0. Unless you slow down you can do some real damage, which makes a nano pretty vulnerable.
So the only way to do some about it is to introduce new modules! I like the idea of a scrambler that deactivates the MWD. With that you don't need to do anything else cause a nano will be dead the moment it gets scrambled. This way our laws of physics in EVE stay the same and we won't feel cheated. Still the fuzz about nano is overrated. Ok they can outrun damage, but like I said before they won't do much damage themselves when they go that fast. They probable won't even have a lock on you when they run that fast.
1 things for sure. If CCP keeps ****ing us up like this nerfing I'm gonna be even faster then the fastest nano ever seen with the ride out of here! (cancel subscription all the way). I haven't bought a monster PC with 30" to see more blobs and their lag. The Syndome |
Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.29 23:06:00 -
[3238]
EvE online is for BLOB EVE ONLINE IS FOR BLOB BLOBLOBLOBLOBLOBLOBLOB BLOB BLOB Blob BLOB ->BLOB<-
AmI doing it right Curzon?
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Gustav Seriya
Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.29 23:33:00 -
[3239]
Edited by: Gustav Seriya on 29/07/2008 23:34:27 After flying my nanoships about on the test server...
The removal of mass reduction from the game is huge all by itself. Mass reduction, especially through the superefficient Polycarbon Engine Housing, added significant non-stacking speed and agility bonuses as well as a unique acceleration bonus to the game.
With mass reduction gone I don't see that everything else needs to be nerfed quite so heavily. In particular I think setting all MWDs to a flat +500% is horrible, this removes variety from the game and destroys the value of a lot of faction modules. The cap penalty is clearly not that important because everyone and their mother fits MWD; MWDs should still give different speed boosts.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:20:00 -
[3240]
I missed this thread for the past 5 days. Just read through the devblog and I'm left wondering how exactly these changes will fix the actual problem. I see a bunch of relatively minor balance tweaks (good ones, but still minor ones) and no solutions for issues like stasis web agility modification. Another thing that troubles me is that the graphs are incorrect. If they were meant to accurately portray the maximum obtainable speed on ships, the maximums are very much short of real values. They also ignore racial variations of ships like the Vagabond.
However, I will reserve judgement for now. If all of these minor tweaks add up to a complete solution, I'll be impressed.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
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Marius Maximus
Gallente Collateral Impact Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:03:00 -
[3241]
Goddamn ****ing CCP. Always out with the nerf bat and this time, ****ed with things royally cause a bunch of carebears whined about it, Goons whined about it and you went "Ok".
Just stop ****ing with the game.
Your doing it all wrong. Very wrong.
CCP, go play hide and go **** yourself. The pvp'ers in EVE need to kill some carebears to slow the whinefest.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 02:16:00 -
[3242]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
If only 15% of the player population lives in 0.0 and nano is virtually a 0.0 entity then the pvpers that work in low sec or empire should not give a toss as it does not effect them. But most 0.0 pvpers do not want the nerf as it is removing a very enjoyable form of pvp.
The increased viability of small ships makes me happy in the pants as a low-sec pirate tbh.
Dealing with nanoships was never a problem, but I like all the other impacts the changes have on gameplay.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 02:35:00 -
[3243]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 02:42:28 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 02:40:11
Originally by: Malachon Draco
A non-nano gang who makes mistakes loses a pittance in isk. A nanogang who makes mistakes loses hundreds of millions per ship. Maybe it tolerates a few more mistakes, but any mistakes that cost a nanogang a ship, is vastly more expensive. Is that not a form of balance?
This is nonsense; many non-nano gangs are fairly expensive. Yes, polycarbons are expensive, but hey, so are trimarks. And you're way more likely to lose the trimarked ship anyway, making your assertion about cost being the balancing factor rather silly.
Also: Guerilla warfare != engaging superior forces. Guerilla warfare is about hitting inferior forces and running away before the superior force arrives. There's a difference.
Seriously, I don't care about nanos specifically (although I love the new scramblers etc - all the new tools for small ships basically), but the 'don't nerf nano' brigade arguments are, well... you'd be better off if you just shut up, you know? Claiming you need a tool to engage superior forces doesn't say much in your favour.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 03:06:00 -
[3244]
Originally by: Pheleus
If you have time Fraps it stick it on the forums adn see if CCP can explain it. P
I'll explain it: (a) You need to fly smart, throwing large amounts of ISK doesn't do anything unless you do. Getting within overloaded webrange of a Rifter is flying stupid. I've killed/ransomed numerous nano-Stabbers (even rigged) in a freaking AB Rifter (on TQ) because they don't know shit about tracking and think that 14km is a good place to be. It isn't. The further you are, the better you track, I thought everyone understands this.
(2) Drones, use them. Use them when the target is close, don't send em off chasing a frigate way off.
(3) Fitting the Vagabond on SISI the same way you do on TQ is not good anymore. First off, you desperately need anti-frig/inty protection now. Fit it. The point of the changes is that now you need protection vs smaller ships. Regardless of how much ISK you've decided to spent, you won't be immune to everything unless you fit/fly smart.
(4) Broken argument is broken, because Maelstorm with estamel invulns and crystals dies to a Rupture after cap charges run out if it doesn't have web/mwd/point (or now: it dies anyway unless counter-fit for killing cruisers), and it should clearly win, because estamel invulns costs billions.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Drake Arson
Minmatar Infernal Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.30 03:09:00 -
[3245]
Congratulations.
You just ****ed up everything BUT the nano***s.
Blaster boats just got royally screwed, EVE blobs have become more of a possibility, You just pretty much DESTROYED solo warfare.
great job, CCP. Before implementing this "action", Think VERY hard. Your biting the bullet here, and trust me, your gonna screw up.
Honestly, **** the whiners. Nerfing the 1billion ISK implants is just OUT of the question.
Alot of people complain about what they cannot get there grubby paws on. EVER think of that?
Dare you Defy me?!
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mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 03:16:00 -
[3246]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jimmy 4chan Oh also, leave MWDs alone, you're changing the 1 mod that is more crucial to most 0.0 setups than anything else. If you want us to use afterburners, boost them. Don't nerf the alternatives just because the afterburner sucks.
Isn't that exactly why they want to change it?
lol, exactly. These are the types that have been catered to since the release of rigs.
Min Maxing wow players. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Atrei Capital
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Posted - 2008.07.30 03:31:00 -
[3247]
I've actually tried a "mixed" speed/tank setup to some decent effect. Even the nanoships now take damage from incoming damage, but the damage is still lower than the stationary equivalent.
Since 3 nanofibers is now enough for a full "speed" setup, more slots are freed up. It is no longer possible to avoid 100% of damage through nano. But when an interceptor with a small shield booster can "tank" a sleipnir (even though the Sleipnir is occasionally hitting due to reduced speed).. well, you get the idea.
If you fit a bit of tank (resists + reps / boosters), and mitigate 50% of incoming damage through speed... well, you get the idea.
The problem is, people are still trying for a 100% nano tank, with no way to deal with the trickle of damage that now gets through to them.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:52:00 -
[3248]
Originally by: Atrei Capital I've actually tried a "mixed" speed/tank setup to some decent effect. Even the nanoships now take damage from incoming damage, but the damage is still lower than the stationary equivalent.
Since 3 nanofibers is now enough for a full "speed" setup, more slots are freed up. It is no longer possible to avoid 100% of damage through nano. But when an interceptor with a small shield booster can "tank" a sleipnir (even though the Sleipnir is occasionally hitting due to reduced speed).. well, you get the idea.
If you fit a bit of tank (resists + reps / boosters), and mitigate 50% of incoming damage through speed... well, you get the idea.
The problem is, people are still trying for a 100% nano tank, with no way to deal with the trickle of damage that now gets through to them.
right, but most ships don't have the cap to pull that off. most vaga fits can't even permarun a mwd, not to even try to add a shield booster/armor rep in there
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cargo2000
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:19:00 -
[3249]
I think the changes in the proposition might be to drastic and miss the mark.
I am going to suggest increasing the deceleration effects of a web, and the mwd being deactivated (help the nuet defense). Also buff the rapier and huginn sig res.
Maybe toy with the stacking of pirate implants and gang bennies.
But in all honesty nano's aren't over powered, how to kill them has been well covered in this thread and many others.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:54:00 -
[3250]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
CCP should stop trying to NERF things and just BOOST other things.
NO TO THE NERF YES TO THE BOOST.
100% agree
Not the 4-5km/sec hacs need a nerf, not the ceptors they was ok.
If devs simply would boost heavy prec missiles and other t2 ammo a bit that would be maybe a better solution
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:55:00 -
[3251]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jimmy 4chan Oh also, leave MWDs alone, you're changing the 1 mod that is more crucial to most 0.0 setups than anything else. If you want us to use afterburners, boost them. Don't nerf the alternatives just because the afterburner sucks.
Isn't that exactly why they want to change it?
Sure but if they change, they should take away bubbles or reduce tem to 1-2km and remove cynojammers from the game too
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:01:00 -
[3252]
As mentioned in the dev blog Mobile Warp Disruptor (bubble) ranges have been changed on SiSi:
Small I - 4 => 5 Small II - 6 => 7 Medium I - 12 => 11 Medium II - 18 => 17 Large I - 36 => 26 Large II - 54 => 40
Both dictor bubbles remain the same.
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RazorCRO
Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:15:00 -
[3253]
Jezus christ....124 pages...
Well...i have only 1 thing i would like to "point" at which is probably written somewher ein this post, but dont blame me if i dont go trough 124 pages of crying and see if it's really there...
Will Minmatar recons get web bonus (not range, but strength) so they can stop targets as they used to or they are all screwed up?
And no, i am not Minmatar pilot, i'm good ol 100% caldari....i just think that it's way too much blow for Minnie recons.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:47:00 -
[3254]
Originally by: Nyphur I missed this thread for the past 5 days. Just read through the devblog and I'm left wondering how exactly these changes will fix the actual problem. I see a bunch of relatively minor balance tweaks (good ones, but still minor ones) and no solutions for issues like stasis web agility modification. Another thing that troubles me is that the graphs are incorrect. If they were meant to accurately portray the maximum obtainable speed on ships, the maximums are very much short of real values. They also ignore racial variations of ships like the Vagabond.
However, I will reserve judgement for now. If all of these minor tweaks add up to a complete solution, I'll be impressed.
Its Rock Paper Scissors now.
AB> Scram > MWD > AB
Also, the anti-blob tactics will return since due to slower speed, people can use distance as a combat tool again. Since nano, distance became mostly irrelevant since in 10 seconds, the enemy would be all over you no matter how hard you try. This forced people to blob up insted of using anti-blob tactics.
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Helfix
Caldari Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:49:00 -
[3255]
Edited by: Helfix on 30/07/2008 07:50:32 Edited by: Helfix on 30/07/2008 07:50:11 So let me guess this correctly,
1). We got 1% of EvE'S UBER rich who can afford Snakes,faction pimp and t2 rigs going ohh IDK 18k/s(ceptors (Edna <3 my crow too)). Then we go to presume the entire EvE population can afford said mods worth 6+ bill. Check
2). We sit at a table for a Pimp 5 hrs (while being high + sippin some cool booze) and discuss why the entire EvE nano-population is going at these crazy speeds. Then it hits us why don't we nerf everything to hell n back lulz and umm change a lot of dynamics all at once. Check
3). Before we go to Forumz lets do some EFT NUmbas CHECK
4). We are on forums now... Let's post our uber 5 hour solution to teh EvE PvP people.. while we stroke our e-peens at how uber our ideas are.
Ok sarcasm away and all...
If nerf goes threw you just encouraged even more blobbing. You said you were against blobbing but even your FW encourages Blobs. You can't go into low-sec and not run into a 60 man camp. If your with traditional tank/gank gangs your DEAD. Your slow and unable to run. Basically you just suicide d your small 5-10 man gang.
Let's not even talk about 0.0, you go into a enemy turf with said 5-10 man gang with slow ships, we all know whats gonna happen don't we 0.0 residents?
Nano's were the only way for small corps/alliances/gangs to engage in combat and you wish to take it away.
The only thing I can say about the people who are for the nerf is this. You probably are the carebears who do nothing but rat/mine (not saying that is wrong I rat too :D) and are forced to defend against the nanos when they come to mess up your perfect mining/ratting day.
What do you do?? You throw ill-matched ships vs. your foes and are stuck into believing they are invincible because your Ion Blaster Mega can't seem to bbq em rite?
Instead of going "Hey guys we need a couple neut boats/some snipers/and tacklers", But I suppose it's easier to go to eve-o and post a bunch of threads of how over-powered nano's are instead of spending the time necessary to fend off said nanos or pop em.
Now don't go all emo on me and start trolling me. I have been there and still am defending against said nanos and doing my nano-***oting at the same time. It takes tactics/co-ordination/correct ships for the job to defeat nanos.
But we all noe if our 1 ship can't insta bbq every other ship then those other ships must be using hax and are borked amirite?
-Helfix
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:50:00 -
[3256]
Minmatar Recons are fine, IMHO. Worse off than on TQ, but balanced on SiSi.
Let's take a typical Stiletto. 4.7km/s with MWD, 714 m/s without. Dual web from a Rapier will bring it to 921m/s. Close to what an Arazu will do (714m/s), from 34km instead of 18km. Also, a Rapier's effect stacks - put another web on the target, and it's down to 606 m/s. So basically, a dual web right now is an 80% web, a scram is an 85% web, the web also works on ABing targets (or non-speed-modded) targets, while the scram only works on MWDing targets. Nice balance there.
Add to this that larger ships have serious troubles hitting smaller ships in close range, and they usually do not have the mid slots to spare to fit dual web themselves. A support ship that can just apply a dual web from 34km is an enormous help there.
So no, Rapiers and Huginns aren't useless now. They don't turn everything into an immobile object anymore, but they are still very effective in the new environment.
Other Minmatar ships need more help :-(
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:08:00 -
[3257]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 30/07/2008 08:13:20
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Minmatar Recons are fine, IMHO. Worse off than on TQ, but balanced on SiSi.
Let's take a typical Stiletto. 4.7km/s with MWD, 714 m/s without. Dual web from a Rapier will bring it to 921m/s. Close to what an Arazu will do (714m/s), from 34km instead of 18km. Also, a Rapier's effect stacks - put another web on the target, and it's down to 606 m/s. So basically, a dual web right now is an 80% web, a scram is an 85% web, the web also works on ABing targets (or non-speed-modded) targets, while the scram only works on MWDing targets. Nice balance there.
Add to this that larger ships have serious troubles hitting smaller ships in close range, and they usually do not have the mid slots to spare to fit dual web themselves. A support ship that can just apply a dual web from 34km is an enormous help there.
So no, Rapiers and Huginns aren't useless now. They don't turn everything into an immobile object anymore, but they are still very effective in the new environment.
Other Minmatar ships need more help :-(
Bullsh*t. Use 3 web use more scrambler and disruptor, mwd or ab too. LOL How many med slot need for them ? Oh u are a shield tanker u cant use lot of med slots modul or your tank will to ruin. Alright we need more man for catch the enemy need more a rapier and arazu too. WE need more blobers and the PvP will be working fine. LOL If u are alone in system with a rapier and u lost your drones elsewhere a simple ceptor will kill you, because 3 webs not enough for slowing and your artys cant hit him ??? What a horrible idea. Just say it more, nice balance there.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:14:00 -
[3258]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Bullsh*t. Use 3 web use more scrambler and disruptor too. LOL How many med slot need for them ? Oh u are a shield tanker u cant use lot of med slots modul or your tank will to ruin.
Newsflash: Rapiers have always used at least two webs and often a point, or three webs for gang setups. Learn your ship fittings.
Originally by: Cutesmile
Alright we need more man for catch the enemy need more a rapier and arazu too. WE need more blobers and the PvP will be working fine. LOL If u are alone in system with a rapier and u lost your drones elsewhere a simple ceptor will kill you, because 3 webs not enough for slowing and your artys cant hit him ??? What a horrible idea. Just say it more, nice balance there.
You won't die to a lone interceptor as long as you're faster then him (and you will with him being triple webbed), even without drones; but don't you think you should die to a interceptor if you forgot anti-frig weapons and are only totting arties? It means you're brining totally wrong weapons for the job. That's called balance.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:18:00 -
[3259]
What's with that 7.5km scram thing anyway? 7.5km scrams have got nothing to do with nanoboats in the same way that 9km webs don't.
It seems that this change is the blasterboat nerf being slipped in under the carpet with the nanonerf. |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:29:00 -
[3260]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Cutesmile
Bullsh*t. Use 3 web use more scrambler and disruptor too. LOL How many med slot need for them ? Oh u are a shield tanker u cant use lot of med slots modul or your tank will to ruin.
Newsflash: Rapiers have always used at least two webs and often a point, or three webs for gang setups. Learn your ship fittings.
Originally by: Cutesmile
Alright we need more man for catch the enemy need more a rapier and arazu too. WE need more blobers and the PvP will be working fine. LOL If u are alone in system with a rapier and u lost your drones elsewhere a simple ceptor will kill you, because 3 webs not enough for slowing and your artys cant hit him ??? What a horrible idea. Just say it more, nice balance there.
You won't die to a lone interceptor as long as you're faster then him (and you will with him being triple webbed), even without drones; but don't you think you should die to a interceptor if you forgot anti-frig weapons and are only totting arties? It means you're brining totally wrong weapons for the job. That's called balance.
Man u dont want to say me, how can fitting a rapier. mwd,disruptor two web and two shield extender this is a conventional rapier fitt. If u use more 1 web and more 1 scrambler cant use shield extenders and ur ship not have tank. You will faster like a ceptor, if the ceptor use web ? Try it and die fast when he jump to you short range or catch u at gate.
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Lysit Kaune
Minmatar Phoenix Division
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:39:00 -
[3261]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Man u dont want to say me, how can fitting a rapier. mwd,disruptor two web and two shield extender this is a conventional rapier fitt. If u use more 1 web and more 1 scrambler cant use shield extenders and ur ship not have tank. You will faster like a ceptor, if the ceptor use web ? Try it and die fast when he jump to you short range or catch u at gate.
Or watch him die as he is still webbed and dies to precision heavies, like most sane people would take from now on.
Also just because your rapier is more expensive then a ceptor it doesn't entitle you to win automatically.
As for not having a tank for taking the extra web and scram, heres a tip, don't take them like everyone else, and have a bit of tank.
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Trigos Trilobi
X-Fire
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:54:00 -
[3262]
I'm not so sure I buy the "too many changes at once"-argument at all. In my opinion it looks like all the changes are aiming at the same end result, and don't work very well without each other. Namely, speedtanking should we viable at all ranges, but it should not be a 100% damage mitigation, and nanoed ships should have to commit more.
The web/scram changes boost speedtanking <13km, and the overall speed reduction makes speed ships more vulnerable beyond that, and a bit easier to catch. First impressions are that the changes reach their goal pretty decently, but there's quite probably a lot of changes to be made afterwards to balance the game properly around the new combat dynamics. I would've personally probably even went as low as 40-50% webs on non-specced ships, to be more in line with other ew, but even the 60% web is a lot healthier foundation to build on than the previous 90%. Also slight AB effect increase might be in order, and probably some tweaks for missile explosion radiuses and velocities, maybe even change from linear sig vs expl radius comparison to a nonlinear formula that reduces the damage more if you're a lot smaller.
I somewhat worry about the blobbage-factor aswell, but I think keeping one broken mechanic because other mechanics possibly are broken aswell is bogus, and in any case these changes have the potential to make combat a lot more interesting than now, even if there quite probably will be a lot of tweaking required to various other aspects of the game later.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:05:00 -
[3263]
Originally by: Cutesmile If u are alone in system with a rapier and u lost your drones elsewhere a simple ceptor will kill you, because 3 webs not enough for slowing and your artys cant hit him ??? What a horrible idea. Just say it more, nice balance there.
Hey, if you are alone in a t2 Fitted Rigged up Sniper battleship and lost your drones, a Cepter will kill you as well. Should we nerf cepters then?
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dojocan81
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:06:00 -
[3264]
wtb rigs which reduce the activation delay on MWD's
thx
also, nice changes at all ... looking forward
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:17:00 -
[3265]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 30/07/2008 09:19:41
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Cutesmile If u are alone in system with a rapier and u lost your drones elsewhere a simple ceptor will kill you, because 3 webs not enough for slowing and your artys cant hit him ??? What a horrible idea. Just say it more, nice balance there.
Hey, if you are alone in a t2 Fitted Rigged up Sniper battleship and lost your drones, a Cepter will kill you as well. Should we nerf cepters then?
Realy ? Sry man but smart BS pilots use neuts on high slot against the ceptors and 1 dampener in med slots against ceptor targeting range and against the falcons. If a ceptor not have cap they cant use disruptor and u can jump.
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Barsexual
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:26:00 -
[3266]
Edited by: Barsexual on 30/07/2008 09:26:41
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Andnowthenews
If only 15% of the player population lives in 0.0 and nano is virtually a 0.0 entity then the pvpers that work in low sec or empire should not give a toss as it does not effect them. But most 0.0 pvpers do not want the nerf as it is removing a very enjoyable form of pvp.
The increased viability of small ships makes me happy in the pants as a low-sec pirate tbh.
Dealing with nanoships was never a problem, but I like all the other impacts the changes have on gameplay.
Yeah too bad you and your corp camp in Onatoh almost 24/7 in BS and BC.
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:52:00 -
[3267]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Pushtan
oh god, 4chan tit on board...not suprising seeing as youre tri...oh wait, was that a personal attack? it was indeed, now Shut. The Hell. Up with the personal/killboard stats and prepare to realise:
NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK/SAY/DO YOU WONT SURVIVE THIS UNLESS YOU ADAPT LITTLE MAN.
K, now, once again, back the ****ing subject at hand...how hard is it...
End of the little 'war' you have on me with words. dipshit
I've already adapted to nanos, that's why I can kill them and you can't. You refuse to use the ways of killing nanos that already exists and DEMAND that CCP adapt the game for you instead of you actually learning how to play the game.
I can and have, not had chance in this alliance/corp. thats why you dotn see it.
Once again ''you cant adapt to us'' is thrown around (by TRI LMAO) and yet, once this comes in, youre gonna be even bigger whiners than the carebears you told not to...
Ok, so youve adapted, well done - heres your +1 internets. Now gtfo the arguement of 'you cant play the game' cus you looked up my stats on the kb, and wait...look! i dont HAVE to use nano ships :O
i havent ONCE said CCP should get rid of Nano ships, but they are overpowered. So, in comes the nerf. Goody. Maybe your alliance will finally realise its time to die off.
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:53:00 -
[3268]
Edited by: Sylthi on 30/07/2008 09:53:43 Well, here's one for the "its so sad you have to laugh or you'll cry yourself to death" pile.
With the new changes, as is, on SiSi, (assuming max skills) you can outrun an unfitted Raven in a Fenrir.
Check it out. Words fail. You really have to see this one to believe it.
And CCP DOESN'T see a problem with this???!! If Nozh REALLY doesn't see a problem with this situation all hope is finally lost for the future of this game. *
* |
Miss Rumpelstilzchen
Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd
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Posted - 2008.07.30 10:08:00 -
[3269]
hmm was right now sitting on the toilette, ans thing about Mwd and 2p scram... so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD, so... if you fitt a WCS (warp core stab) you can run the mwd but don`t warp away...
and so for the Blockadrunners, they are not effectiv on the Warpscrammler.
well lets hope CCP have the same view as me :)
ps.: wtb Warp Core Stab Rig
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:01:00 -
[3270]
Originally by: Prez21
You tried to make a point that you can solo just as effectively in non nano ships as you can in nano ships, the killboard says you suck at pvp and have no clue what your talking about and your only response is shut the hell up and adapt, your just aclueless troll who is clutching to this patch in hopes it will allow you to actualy compete in pvp.
oh god lol, tri....another one...you guys must REALLY be shitting bricks with this patch....wether im 1337 pvping solo or with a gang, it doesnt matter, im doing it and im ENJOYING IT...without a nanoship OH LAWD THE LOLZ
i have so much fun without them, and im gonna have even more fun seeing you idiots struggle without them. kbai
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JohnStar
Caldari Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:01:00 -
[3271]
another stop the nerf. when will the people learn that stop the nerf doesnt work,it didnt work for misilles,carriers,and the list goes on. just swallow the cr@p and play simple. they never ever listen and we sheep just play the game because we still love the game and as of today there isnt a other mmorpg that can compare to eve,hope there will be a few in the future than they realy have to listen.
---------------------------------------------- i prefer sex with corpses,they dont bi.tch |
Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:03:00 -
[3272]
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD,
scram just shuts down the mwd, you can warp out when scrammed, disruptor stops you warping out |
Judician Nar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:08:00 -
[3273]
A welcome change.
And to all thos of you whining about this .. read, think, then if you still want to whine...stfu.
Life changes. Fact. Get used to it and rethink your tactics. Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. ...there are no 'rooms' in space |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:16:00 -
[3274]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD,
scram just shuts down the mwd, you can warp out when scrammed, disruptor stops you warping out
er...what???
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:17:00 -
[3275]
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD,
scram just shuts down the mwd, you can warp out when scrammed, disruptor stops you warping out
Dear readers, don't read the above post as it contains false information.
Warp Scramblers now put 2 points of scram and disable MWD.
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Ms Lobster
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:18:00 -
[3276]
Im confused to why CCP (with the speed nerf) has also nerfed the most effective tool in slowing fast ships down.....webs!
You want ships to go slower, but you make webs half as effective? Sorry to be blunt, but that really makes no sense.
Furthermore what is left for Min. toons now? The vaga and saber in particular have lost their main advantages over equivilent ships from different races. What will be the role of the rapier with 50% effective webs?
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Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:23:00 -
[3277]
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD,
scram just shuts down the mwd, you can warp out when scrammed, disruptor stops you warping out
Dear readers, don't read the above post as it contains false information.
Warp Scramblers now put 2 points of scram and disable MWD.
yeah, i was thinking i'd missed something there...lol people
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:53:00 -
[3278]
Originally by: Ms Lobster Im confused to why CCP (with the speed nerf) has also nerfed the most effective tool in slowing fast ships down.....webs!
You want ships to go slower, but you make webs half as effective? Sorry to be blunt, but that really makes no sense.
Furthermore what is left for Min. toons now? The vaga and saber in particular have lost their main advantages over equivilent ships from different races. What will be the role of the rapier with 50% effective webs?
Increasing the strength of webs is a bad idea as it just causes static game play. Meaning nobody moves. I web you, you web me, we don't go anywhere or can't warp after being disrupted, so combat because about initial position to targets and nothing else.
10km average webber was perfect in that you needed to get close and maitain range to the target and then get into a death grapple with him, by using a secondary ship i.e huginn/rapier, cap warfar, a heavy neut or curse secondary ship, or prevent the agressor from firing, ECM secondary ship.
The logic is primitive for 1v1 contests, kill what you catch, but simple, understandable and finite. Now what we have is simply a case of who has moar people. which means the end of small gang PVP. and as I was reminded, the end of engagements at POS's. No moar grabbing capitals at JB's or cynos outside shields etc. Its disgusting
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.30 11:54:00 -
[3279]
While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:09:00 -
[3280]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul Blasters are officially dead.
Maybe. Maybe not. They're only dead under current proposals because of the 7.5km scram change proposed.
The 7.5km scram change has nothing to do with nanoboats. It should not be too difficult to explain this to CCP. |
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:09:00 -
[3281]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Aenis Veros
Originally by: Call'Da Poleece
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen so a Warp Disruptor are effectiv on the WarpDrive, and the Warp scrammler are effective on the WarpDrive and MwD,
scram just shuts down the mwd, you can warp out when scrammed, disruptor stops you warping out
Dear readers, don't read the above post as it contains false information.
Warp Scramblers now put 2 points of scram and disable MWD.
yeah, i was thinking i'd missed something there...lol people
oops, never tested scrams, just read that somewhere apologies.
In this case I agree with the whiners, THAT is overpowered. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:15:00 -
[3282]
Originally by: Lily Cole
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul Blasters are officially dead.
Maybe. Maybe not. They're only dead under current proposals because of the 7.5km scram change proposed.
The 7.5km scram change has nothing to do with nanoboats. It should not be too difficult to explain this to CCP.
And the weak webs, but yes. Deathscram must never be on TQ, no matter what other dumb shit ends up in this patch.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:33:00 -
[3283]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
Hmmm what was the answer every time if caladri pilots wrote about they ships are bad for solo pvp because all needed mods like scram, web, mwd are midslot modules? Hmmmmm......Wait i know.....They not soloships. Thats it
Take some friends with use more webs on the target and u can kill it
Adapt or Die
Eventually leave the game, but in this case may i have your stuff?
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TEX AVERYY
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:37:00 -
[3284]
Lets nerf such ideas from CCP !
But serious. If this patch goes through, over 40 % of my skillpoints will be for the trash.
In this case .... thanks to CCP for terminating my game.
TEX
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.30 12:53:00 -
[3285]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
Hmmm what was the answer every time if caladri pilots wrote about they ships are bad for solo pvp because all needed mods like scram, web, mwd are midslot modules? Hmmmmm......Wait i know.....They not soloships. Thats it
Take some friends with use more webs on the target and u can kill it
Adapt or Die
Eventually leave the game, but in this case may i have your stuff?
Oh no, another man who say it bring more man and adapt. LOL Bring more man for blob and lag. U could tell me, the players how adapt to lag ?
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:03:00 -
[3286]
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
Hmmm what was the answer every time if caladri pilots wrote about they ships are bad for solo pvp because all needed mods like scram, web, mwd are midslot modules? Hmmmmm......Wait i know.....They not soloships. Thats it
Take some friends with use more webs on the target and u can kill it
Adapt or Die
Eventually leave the game, but in this case may i have your stuff?
Oh no, another man who say it bring more man and adapt. LOL Bring more man for blob and lag. U could tell me, the players how adapt to lag ?
No, i just answered on the blasterthorn problem of the guy the same way like 99% of the gallente players answered before on every caldari thread about major ammount of caldari ships cant solopvp because all this mods are midslot mods.
And now if i answer sarcastic the same way u telling me about lag. If Caladri needs take extra tackler, extra webber etc to the fight that dont cause lag????
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THRASHER23
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.30 13:28:00 -
[3287]
Edited by: THRASHER23 on 30/07/2008 13:31:30
Originally by: Helfix Edited by: Helfix on 30/07/2008 07:50:32 Edited by: Helfix on 30/07/2008 07:50:11 So let me guess this correctly,
1). We got 1% of EvE'S UBER rich who can afford Snakes,faction pimp and t2 rigs going ohh IDK 18k/s(ceptors (Edna <3 my crow too)). Then we go to presume the entire EvE population can afford said mods worth 6+ bill. Check
2). We sit at a table for a Pimp 5 hrs (while being high + sippin some cool booze) and discuss why the entire EvE nano-population is going at these crazy speeds. Then it hits us why don't we nerf everything to hell n back lulz and umm change a lot of dynamics all at once. Check
3). Before we go to Forumz lets do some EFT NUmbas CHECK
4). We are on forums now... Let's post our uber 5 hour solution to teh EvE PvP people.. while we stroke our e-peens at how uber our ideas are.
Ok sarcasm away and all...
If nerf goes threw you just encouraged even more blobbing. You said you were against blobbing but even your FW encourages Blobs. You can't go into low-sec and not run into a 60 man camp. If your with traditional tank/gank gangs your DEAD. Your slow and unable to run. Basically you just suicide d your small 5-10 man gang.
Let's not even talk about 0.0, you go into a enemy turf with said 5-10 man gang with slow ships, we all know whats gonna happen don't we 0.0 residents?
Nano's were the only way for small corps/alliances/gangs to engage in combat and you wish to take it away.
The only thing I can say about the people who are for the nerf is this. You probably are the carebears who do nothing but rat/mine (not saying that is wrong I rat too :D) and are forced to defend against the nanos when they come to mess up your perfect mining/ratting day.
What do you do?? You throw ill-matched ships vs. your foes and are stuck into believing they are invincible because your Ion Blaster Mega can't seem to bbq em rite?
Instead of going "Hey guys we need a couple neut boats/some snipers/and tacklers", But I suppose it's easier to go to eve-o and post a bunch of threads of how over-powered nano's are instead of spending the time necessary to fend off said nanos or pop em.
Now don't go all emo on me and start trolling me. I have been there and still am defending against said nanos and doing my nano-***oting at the same time. It takes tactics/co-ordination/correct ships for the job to defeat nanos.
But we all noe if our 1 ship can't insta bbq every other ship then those other ships must be using hax and are borked amirite?
-Helfix
CCP imo have become expert trollers. For instance they claim to be against blobage but then create the titan. Then, forcing blob on blob warfare to be the only effective way of fighting blobs. Next, open the discussion of a highly controversial topic with, ôFor those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock."- I mean this shit is screaming TROLL!
They have no idea what they are doing anymore. The ideas on how to balance the game should be coupled with the eve community or maybe the player counsel that was elected a while ago. ItÆs obvious they are out of touch with this game. Nerfing speed at this level will nerf many playerÆs skills as well as making them useless on the battlefield. Eve is not some wow or AOC game. Drastic changes in behavior of ships, mods, or mechanics should be approached with extreme caution. It takes time to train the skills to use certain ships and maximize their abilities. For some reason, you ccp, think the player base should be penalized for your yo-yo way of making decisions. Just what the hell are we suppose to do with skills that took months to complete and are now useless? Also what the duce is with that dev posting that ******ed vaga setup?
For death and glory
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Aya Vandenovich
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Posted - 2008.07.30 14:03:00 -
[3288]
Since a lot of ships are getting speed, mass, and inertia modifier changes, will we see a change in those stats for BCs?
Currently, the BCs of each race are exactly the same when it comes to those three stats, which just doesn't seem right given that the tier two ships are "heavier".
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:00:00 -
[3289]
CCP has simply lost the plot. Everything people say against this nerf will be ignored. Just like with the nos nerf. I cant wait to see how badly this effects minmtar of all. :( they gonna get hit the hardest then gallente. I can see it now send in the uber tank fleet ships, with close range scrams to lock down all the blasterthrons. If they are smart they will actually look over what people are saying, and consider what age and the time spent. Are they gonna refund all the rigs and modules that become pretty useless. I mean isk takes time like skills to build.
CCP you dont need to slap out these big changes so fast. Take yer time ease into the speed changes. GOvern the ships not nerf all the modules. Whoever is creating deadlines smack him. Because his desire to pressure results is making stupid ideas happen before well thought out ones do. The game being great is more important than anything and so far this game has been the best one ever since 2k5 when i started and some will say longer. But you guys are really losing the plot bigtime. STop reinventing pvp every 6 months. Slow down, if u need to make something new add a new damn ship. make the orca or something already. Or some salvager specific ships.
CCP you neeed to be more giving not so taking.. Give us more take less. Balance doesnt mean take it means ease into balance. This nerf sucks and i for one vote against it totally. IT SHOULD NOT GO PAST TEST SERVER!!!
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:01:00 -
[3290]
Can anyone say Threadnaught?
Seems like a fairly negative response with very few solutions.
Webs with scripts anyone? (Range/Amount)
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:17:00 -
[3291]
Originally by: The Mach Can anyone say Threadnaught?
Seems like a fairly negative response with very few solutions.
Webs with scripts anyone? (Range/Amount)
Typical response if you read back there have been tons and tons of solutions, so yer wrong and cant click last on a post and then say little solutions. Yer a little slow on current events.
Problem is solutions dont seem to get tested. I saw brilliant nos solutions that didnt even get tried or talked about, they do this as a formality not becasue they want to actually Take these ideas and test them.
But then again being a member of BoD, you would more likly hear more than us.
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The Mach
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:24:00 -
[3292]
Originally by: R3DSKULL
Typical response if you read back there have been tons and tons of solutions, so yer wrong and cant click last on a post and then say little solutions. Yer a little slow on current events.
Problem is solutions dont seem to get tested. I saw brilliant nos solutions that didnt even get tried or talked about, they do this as a formality not becasue they want to actually Take these ideas and test them.
But then again being a member of BoD, you would more likly hear more than us.
I've read. List solutions please. Might be nice to see them all in one place anyways, even if they are on page 126.
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diabolic clone
Amarr Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:30:00 -
[3293]
Selfishly I haven't been looking forward to a speed nerf since I am primarily a battleship pilot and I compete in mobility with terrestrial creatures that have no legs.
I think separating speed differences by ship classes is a good thing even though everyones going to probably get the shaft of the nerf bat, it is pretty obvious even when you start playing EVE frigates are suppose to be fast > destroyers slower > cruisers slower > battle cruisers slower > battleships slower > capitals slowest. At the gain of more hit points, damage potential, and especially module slots, ect.
I am not trying to tear on speed-pilots but I doubt this will be the end of solo/small gang pvp, eve has an interesting social hierarchy. solo pvp'r gets eaten alive by small gang small gang gets eaten alive by big gang This isn't going to happen 100% of the time, but it sure will if you only want to rely on one tactic all the time. Adapt or die ethos would coin in nicely here but instead of being negative and emo, try to make suggestions and ideas in the proper channels for changes that would help out solo and small gang players gain an advantage over zerging. Does that sound any crazier than the speed changes that are on sisi or screaming this sucks and ruins everything?
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:32:00 -
[3294]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
funny.. did you checked sisi? The blasterthrons and blasterperiosn are powing everythign in the FFA arena.. Didn't noticed any more difficulties on their part to pown other BSs.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:40:00 -
[3295]
Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
James Flemming
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:49:00 -
[3296]
Wow, the moment I read this blog I knew there would be a lot of backlash. I think its about time that this change happened, the game is unbalanced and unrealistic currently, so certain ships really needed slowing down.
Not so sure about webs being weaker, quite like the idea of the shorter range scrams disabling mwd's though, however i think complety disabling them is a bit much, maybe just reduce their efficiency?
How about the idea of being able to overload tractor beams to allow them to lock onto ships that are using a mwd, and slowly pull them towards you. Allowing teams to work together to pull nano mwd setups out to a point where they're either out of range or easier to hit for your comrades, but inevitably pulling them closer to yourself. Probably a stupid idea but wanted to throw it out there.
- James -
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:05:00 -
[3297]
Having been on the test server and seen the changes in action, here is my feedback for the Devs:
I feel your testing of speed, which you treat as conclusive evidence that changes must be made, were unrealistic at best. As you know, you tested speed with faction modules, optimal fittings/riggings, perfect skirmish warfare bonuses, perfect strong boosters, full grade snakes, and heat active. Using this setup you appear to have taken rather lightly that achieving speeds like that costs upwards of 3 billion ACTUAL isk (not Sisi or Dev isk), runs the risk of booster side effects, requires a maximum skill Claymore pilot in system, and only lasts for 3-4 cycles before the MWD burns out.
A more appropriate test of speed wouldÆve considered data from more ordinary fights the most important set. Testing a T2 fit nano-HAC against a missile boat, or whatever you wanted to balance it against, wouldÆve been more realistic. You can add gang bonuses and HEAT, but testing HG Snakes and Boosters and Claymores the likes should be taken with the caveat that practically nobody does all of these things at once, and furthermore, when they do they realize that going 25km/s really isnÆt that useful.
I feel too many changes were made all at once. Proper game balance gently twiddles the knobs; the proposed changes use a jackhammer. There are several changes that, in combination with one another, likely couldÆve fixed the proposed ôproblemö of ludicrous speed. Changes such as speed averaging among the ships, stacking nerfing of all speed module types against one another, and polycarbons being brought into line are all lovely. Brought together, you would probably never see another 10km/s Ishtar.
However, the zany additions of an extreme stasis web nerf and the proposed warp scrambler changes come right out of left field, and seem to have nothing at all to do with speed itself. I propose you slate those modules changes for another patch entirely- test them separately, once speed has been worked on!
TL;DR:
1. Implement changes slowly. 2. Leave scram/web changes for another patch once speed is balanced. 3. Test realistically, not for the extremes and theoretics. 4. Stacking nerf all nano modules together and see how it turns out!
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:22:00 -
[3298]
Originally by: The Mach Edited by: The Mach on 30/07/2008 15:27:55
Originally by: R3DSKULL
Typical response if you read back there have been tons and tons of solutions, so yer wrong and cant click last on a post and then say little solutions. Yer a little slow on current events.
Problem is solutions dont seem to get tested. I saw brilliant nos solutions that didnt even get tried or talked about, they do this as a formality not becasue they want to actually Take these ideas and test them.
But then again being a member of BoD, you would more likly hear more than us.
I've read. I'd like for you to prove me wrong rather than saying it. List solutions please. Might be nice to see them all in one place anyways, even if they are on page 126.
lol silly man trying to get me to post all that info so you dont have to read. im not gonna do the work for u just because yer lazy.
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Predator Irl
Caldari Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:27:00 -
[3299]
Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane. CCP are 100% right to nerf speed and restore the balance.
PVPing should not be about who can win / escape because they have trained ships that cannot be shot by anyone. PVPing should be about the MOST SKILLFUL PILOT taking the upper hand.
I think its about time something was done! Good work CCP. |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:34:00 -
[3300]
So long as the battlefield is even, that's all that matters.
The game mechanics apply equally to all.
If you can't beat your enemy by neither force nor wit, you're inferior, deal with it.
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Barsexual
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:36:00 -
[3301]
Edited by: Barsexual on 30/07/2008 16:39:15
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane. CCP are 100% right to nerf speed and restore the balance.
PVPing should not be about who can win / escape because they have trained ships that cannot be shot by anyone. PVPing should be about the MOST SKILLFUL PILOT taking the upper hand.
I think its about time something was done! Good work CCP.
aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=PREDATOR+IRL&filter=losses#show |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:38:00 -
[3302]
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane. CCP are 100% right to nerf speed and restore the balance.
PVPing should not be about who can win / escape because they have trained ships that cannot be shot by anyone. PVPing should be about the MOST SKILLFUL PILOT taking the upper hand.
I think its about time something was done! Good work CCP.
thats how it was before CCP touched speed. Skilled pilots fighting against unskilled competitors wreaking for massive forum whines and hilarious killboard stats for 2 years. Alot of pilots learned that nano was a viable, defendable, and nonexploitable tactic.
You have just crapped on your keyboard and declared the drake supreme. Easy chief, you were probably garbage before the nerf and will be after |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:06:00 -
[3303]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
Click me! You know you want to... |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:21:00 -
[3304]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
That guy's the biggest dipshit ever, don't bother.
Also, I give it two weeks or less until he gets on his next nerf warpath.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Gustav Seriya
Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:43:00 -
[3305]
Originally by: Vitrael 1. Implement changes slowly. 3. Test realistically, not for the extremes and theoretics.
^^ Especially agree with this.
Quite happy with the web changes personally. Webs have been overpowered for a long time IMO, they could perhaps use a little more range but -90% speed from one module is very silly, and makes tracking irrelevant at close range.
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Amarr Holymight
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:46:00 -
[3306]
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane.....
Caldari can nano too and there is quite a lot of skill involved in manually flying a 10km/s vagabond moreso than hugging a gate in a passive tanked Onyx knowing you can tank a few Vagas til you make your escape. Vagas aren't unstoppable if you actually use the skill you speak of you can catch them, tricky but that's the challenge cause you know if you catch them you have just popped a ship worth a fair price. In this way I admire snaked polycarbed Vaga/other nano pilots as much as I strive to kill them and if they are willing to put that much ISK and training on the line they deserve to be hard to kill.
I fly anti-nano Neut Domi as Vitrael above has fallen victim to and I also fly a nano-ishtar from time to time these changes overall as a bundle do absolutely nothing to improve the game. They are so drastic they are leading me to believe that CCP has a problem with how it views its game. As it stands I can take on about four NanoHacs in my neut domi and if I was Caldari I could fit a Raven to do the same job probably more effectively. Obviously they will disengage but I will catch a 100-400 mil Turkey for my work.
I like the scram change but increasing its range is too much especially for blasterboats (Before you say anything I am currently training for an Arazu). The web change is also a little extreme though I'm for it. A Nano-Hac/Recon should still be able to outrun medium drones and interceptors should still be able to outrun light drones except while orbiting that could be your balance. Overall speed/inertia decrease as it stands will create a new game of daily blob and even less reds will venture into Providence or similar. Guerilla warfare works both ways it takes skill and a good FC to do it well you can do it too so quit ya whining and find a good PvP corp. If Drake pilots become ubergankmobiles Im quitting you can have all my stuff. Summary some good changes and ideas but really testing stuff on SISI is a whole lot different to TQ encounters so really CCP you will have to use your gut instinct on this one.
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Desoro
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:58:00 -
[3307]
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane. CCP are 100% right to nerf speed and restore the balance.
I'm sure the Guristas in Motsu feel the same way about the Caldari.
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:00:00 -
[3308]
Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 30/07/2008 16:39:15
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane. CCP are 100% right to nerf speed and restore the balance.
PVPing should not be about who can win / escape because they have trained ships that cannot be shot by anyone. PVPing should be about the MOST SKILLFUL PILOT taking the upper hand.
I think its about time something was done! Good work CCP.
aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=PREDATOR+IRL&filter=losses#show
Ahahahahahaha. Unbelievable. And this is the kind of arsehat that CCP listens to when it's time to fundamentally alter game mechanics?
Also Scagga, you're not still sore that your precision cruise missiles failed to catch my Stiletto the other night, are you? Don't worry friend! Here's what the "playing field' post patch will look like: Minmatar, who relied to a greater degree than any race on SPEED to dictate / win engagements, now have no tank (lol active tanking bonuses on ships with inadequate slots and universally worst capacitor sizes), no gank (split weapons FTW AMIRITE?), no ewar (target painters just don't count compared to ECM TDs and damps), and our bships which were already sub-par get their mass INCREASED while our secondary ewar, stasis webifiers, get their effectiveness HALVED.
That's not an "even" playing field by any stretch of the imagination. lern2crosstrain? I've got two weeks until Caldari Cruisers V finishes, doesn't mean I'm not ****ed that my Minnie skills are now worth squat-all. ________________
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:01:00 -
[3309]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it.
There are ways to create a basically unbeatable armor and shield tank, but we won't nerf the shit out of that will we? On page one it was said that the vagabond is really pretty much untouched by this whole thing, which 1) seems to be what this patch is aimed at and 2) seems to be true. By implementing this patch CCP, based on my time on singularity and my experience with Gallente pilots, instead of nerfing speed boats, which are now still untouchable with an mwd, (who is going fit a scram without like a 100% range bonus or more), you have effectively turned blaster boats into junk. I can fight and beat pretty much any enemy now with a nanotar, with good drone skills and the overall speed you can still make it go, but if i take out a Deimos or Thorax, I will get beat by any nano fit ship on singularity. I am 12 days from an Astarte and I LOVE the balance the game has now, making my command ship a formidable enemy, a tough nut to crack with a helluva lot of damage. This will be completely eliminated and my slow ass brick will now not only NEVER catch a nano ship, but probably NEVER catch anything going a relatively good speed without a f-ing faction web or something. You are about to crush any chance blaster ships have to cover range while moving in for the kill as a nano ship, if not ALREADY ON TOP OF ME for my scram to be useful. . . will just. . . fly away. I really don't know how many nano ships and pilots there are and pilots who are good at using them, but I'm going to guess that as with any pilot, their skills make them hard to kill, not the broken game mechanics of "you're going too fast". My Astarte (and other blaster ships) will now, with reduced speed, the SCRAM (only) turning off mwds and general rules that will be implemented to TRY to turn down the percieved "nano pwnery"will just hurt and kill blaster combat. Thanks for that
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Call'Da Poleece
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:13:00 -
[3310]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
There are ways to create a basically unbeatable armor and shield tank, but we won't nerf the shit out of that will we?
hax, there is no impregnable tank... |
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:27:00 -
[3311]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 18:29:42 well not impregnable, but incredibly strong, i know of no indestructible nano boats either, sooo you get my idea yes?
Originally by: Melegaunt TanthulWhile I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
THIS IS TRUE ^^^^^
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Kali Ananda
Minmatar Realm of Shadows
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:28:00 -
[3312]
I feel these speed nerfs are way too much at once. Speed was already nerfed once. There are currently in-game counters to fast ships such as Rapier / Huginn with long web ranges, Curses with long range nuets, etc. Bring those to battle to counter fast ships.
It has taken me quite a bit of skill point training, isk, and proficiency to be able to fly nano ships well. The bottom line is they are fun. They allow me to be in small gangs, or fly solo in hostile territory. The downside is built in. They are very, very expensive to kit out. And they are paper thin. If I get webbed, its over.
Thats balanced.
I haven't tried the new changes yet, such as the less effective web's, etc, but I must say, please don't disable MWD's if you get scrammed. Please.
What about if MWD'ing was like heat in a way. If you fly above a certain threshold, your ship/modules start to take heat/damage similar to normal heat. Just a thought....
Kali Ananda
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:39:00 -
[3313]
Edited by: Vitrael on 30/07/2008 18:45:02 Edited by: Vitrael on 30/07/2008 18:42:53
Originally by: Amarr Holymight
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane.....
Caldari can nano too and there is quite a lot of skill involved in manually flying a 10km/s vagabond moreso than hugging a gate in a passive tanked Onyx
Seconding Amarr Holymight on this one. Having lost a Vagabond to his neut Dominix and friends I know firsthand he is right.
Nano is not about "one race" being "virtually unstoppable." All races are fast- even Cerbs make good nanoships. It's really not Minmatar being nerfed. Say goodbye to your uber nanoishtars and nanozealots forever. Everyone is going to feel the bat.
The Gallente are feeling particularly screwed I'm sure, with their blaster boats being countered by the new warp scrambler iWin button. They can't close range inside 10km due to scrams, and they can't web their targets due to web nerf. On test server now it is surprisingly easy to solo a Blastermega in a scrambler Tempest. Don't just assume that because CCP says the changes will stop nanoships, the changes will be good for you because you don't like nanoships.
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:39:00 -
[3314]
Edited by: Vitrael on 30/07/2008 18:45:02 Edited by: Vitrael on 30/07/2008 18:42:53
Originally by: Amarr Holymight
Originally by: Predator Irl Having one race virtually unstoppable because of an unfair advantage is just insane.....
Caldari can nano too and there is quite a lot of skill involved in manually flying a 10km/s vagabond moreso than hugging a gate in a passive tanked Onyx
Seconding Amarr Holymight on this one. Having lost a Vagabond to his neut Dominix and friends I know firsthand he is right.
Nano is not about "one race" being "virtually unstoppable." All races are fast- even Cerbs make good nanoships. It's really not Minmatar being nerfed. Say goodbye to your uber nanoishtars and nanozealots forever. Everyone is going to feel the bat.
The Gallente are feeling particularly screwed I'm sure, with their blaster boats being countered by the new warp scrambler iWin button. They can't close range inside 10km due to scrams, and they can't web their targets due to web nerf. On test server now it is surprisingly easy to solo a Blastermega in a scrambler Tempest. Don't just assume that because CCP says the changes will stop nanoships, the changes will be good for you because you don't like nanoships.
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:26:00 -
[3315]
Edited by: RuriHoshino on 30/07/2008 19:26:35 I gotta disagree slightly Vit, if only to say that Minmatar actually are being shafted more than the other races. Cerb can still tank and do it's damage over long ranges, Zealot is the new king of killing, Ishtar still has it's sick drone DPS. But with it's being cut, the Vagabond loses it's role as the fast skirmisher because it's absolute speed is no longer adequate to substitute for it's total lack of real tanking ability.
Ad to this the fact that our real racial ewar, stasis webs, are being drastically reduced in effectiveness, our dogfighting interceptor (Claw) is still a joke, our primary combat cruiser (Rupture) is still short one bonused weapon compared to the other 3 races, and our battleship lineup which is without exception hailed as the least useful is being nerfed to be less maneuverable than the Caldari battleships, and it's hard not to take this as a massive punch in the nuts to Minmatar spec'd players. Blasters are taking a huge hit as well, but the Mega can still snipe brutally and the Domi is unaffected. ________________
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 19:26:00 -
[3316]
Edited by: RuriHoshino on 30/07/2008 19:26:35 I gotta disagree slightly Vit, if only to say that Minmatar actually are being shafted more than the other races. Cerb can still tank and do it's damage over long ranges, Zealot is the new king of killing, Ishtar still has it's sick drone DPS. But with it's being cut, the Vagabond loses it's role as the fast skirmisher because it's absolute speed is no longer adequate to substitute for it's total lack of real tanking ability.
Ad to this the fact that our real racial ewar, stasis webs, are being drastically reduced in effectiveness, our dogfighting interceptor (Claw) is still a joke, our primary combat cruiser (Rupture) is still short one bonused weapon compared to the other 3 races, and our battleship lineup which is without exception hailed as the least useful is being nerfed to be less maneuverable than the Caldari battleships, and it's hard not to take this as a massive punch in the nuts to Minmatar spec'd players. Blasters are taking a huge hit as well, but the Mega can still snipe brutally and the Domi is unaffected.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:44:00 -
[3317]
Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
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McDonALTs
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 19:44:00 -
[3318]
Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:53:00 -
[3319]
thats great they are nerfing the whole game so you can kill a nanomach. i will now be able to kill nothing using my blaster boats I've spent my whole career training for, so sorry you didn't get your nanmach. you win.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:53:00 -
[3320]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 19:59:01 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 19:58:26 thats great they are nerfing the whole game so you can kill a nanomach. i will now be able to kill nothing using my blaster boats I've spent my whole career training for, so sorry you didn't get your nanmach. you win. and ruri, thats BS's only, but you are right about the blaster boats getting whacked. its even MORE painful to BC and command pilots, since the Eos, Astarte, Rax, Hype etc. are all blaster specific (if not blaster ONLY) boats, and are going to become weaksauce because people don't like NOT getting kills against frig sized speed tanks :P instead of taking and fixing things that are wrong with speed, they are just going to nerf it. they could increase (or decrease) the mass of certain ships and adjust the physics engine so your frig cant bump that dread or titan, but instead, they'll just ruin the game, thats easier. Since, as has been said before, they could really care less what we are putting in this forum, this whack is going through full force, and theres nothing we can do to stop it.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:59:00 -
[3321]
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
I can build a battleship that can tank 12500 DPS. I guess the next nerf needs to be reducing armor, shields and hull of all battleships by 90% to combat this extremely abusive tanking power. Never mind that said tank battleship costs as much as a titan.
The nanomach you describe is probably worth 10b+ if you include the implants of the pilot. If not more. If you want to nerf that, fine. No problem. But don't nerf 20 other ships going a third of the speed of that Machariel with it.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 19:59:00 -
[3322]
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
I can build a battleship that can tank 12500 DPS. I guess the next nerf needs to be reducing armor, shields and hull of all battleships by 90% to combat this extremely abusive tanking power. Never mind that said tank battleship costs as much as a titan.
The nanomach you describe is probably worth 10b+ if you include the implants of the pilot. If not more. If you want to nerf that, fine. No problem. But don't nerf 20 other ships going a third of the speed of that Machariel with it.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:46:00 -
[3323]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 20:47:07
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
I can build a battleship that can tank 12500 DPS. I guess the next nerf needs to be reducing armor, shields and hull of all battleships by 90% to combat this extremely abusive tanking power. Never mind that said tank battleship costs as much as a titan.
The nanomach you describe is probably worth 10b+ if you include the implants of the pilot. If not more. If you want to nerf that, fine. No problem. But don't nerf 20 other ships going a third of the speed of that Machariel with it.
If that BS enters a engament and is loosing, he cannot avoid the engagement. Neut would imbilise him. Numbers would gank him. If its a super passive tanked drake, then even a bog standard ham drake can kill him due to low DPS on passive tanks.
The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:46:00 -
[3324]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 20:47:07
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
I can build a battleship that can tank 12500 DPS. I guess the next nerf needs to be reducing armor, shields and hull of all battleships by 90% to combat this extremely abusive tanking power. Never mind that said tank battleship costs as much as a titan.
The nanomach you describe is probably worth 10b+ if you include the implants of the pilot. If not more. If you want to nerf that, fine. No problem. But don't nerf 20 other ships going a third of the speed of that Machariel with it.
If that BS enters a engament and is loosing, he cannot avoid the engagement. Neut would imbilise him. Numbers would gank him. If its a super passive tanked drake, then even a bog standard ham drake can kill him due to low DPS on passive tanks.
The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:55:00 -
[3325]
Originally by: McDonALTs The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
You're exactly right. Nano ships do not have high DPS, they do not tank actively OR passively. The only thing they can do better than any other ship is run away. If you cannot make them explode, it does not mean the game is broken, it means you do not know how to fight them effectively. Either you don't believe the countless explanations from experienced players on how to counter nano ships, or you've never bothered to read them. In either case, that is your failure, not the game's. ________________
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:55:00 -
[3326]
Originally by: McDonALTs The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
You're exactly right. Nano ships do not have high DPS, they do not tank actively OR passively. The only thing they can do better than any other ship is run away. If you cannot make them explode, it does not mean the game is broken, it means you do not know how to fight them effectively. Either you don't believe the countless explanations from experienced players on how to counter nano ships, or you've never bothered to read them. In either case, that is your failure, not the game's.
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Subtarian
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[3327]
CCP PLEASE PLEASE, give the Minmatar something, anything of an explanation on how this is not going to criple our recons and the vagabond. I know u guys can say its our
game we dont have to explain nothing. BUT WE PAY to PLAY. so out of sheer courtsey please tell us your opinon on the minmatar race anything will do. I dont use snakes an I trully
believe most people dont. Caldari Falcons can Jam a entire fleet, and now you just gave there missiles an astounding boost. all im asking is some sort of explanation on
the role of a rapier or huggin. I agreed with the speed rebalance so this is not a complaint about that. But it is a plea to tell the minmatar who only specializes in
minmatar ships on a direction we are supposed to go. anyone from ccp who specializes in minmatar please post. so i can say i was wrong and those ships will still be
viable to solo pvp in.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[3328]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 21:10:16
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Originally by: McDonALTs The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
You're exactly right. Nano ships do not have high DPS, they do not tank actively OR passively. The only thing they can do better than any other ship is run away. If you cannot make them explode, it does not mean the game is broken, it means you do not know how to fight them effectively. Either you don't believe the countless explanations from experienced players on how to counter nano ships, or you've never bothered to read them. In either case, that is your failure, not the game's.
She is absolutely right. if you have never heard of carrying warrior II's in your drone bay, thats YOUR fault, not the broken game. again reference you to THIS MAIL to find out more about why this patch is about to nerf and fail eve
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Subtarian
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[3329]
CCP PLEASE PLEASE, give the Minmatar something, anything of an explanation on how this is not going to criple our recons and the vagabond. I know u guys can say its our
game we dont have to explain nothing. BUT WE PAY to PLAY. so out of sheer courtsey please tell us your opinon on the minmatar race anything will do. I dont use snakes an I trully
believe most people dont. Caldari Falcons can Jam a entire fleet, and now you just gave there missiles an astounding boost. all im asking is some sort of explanation on
the role of a rapier or huggin. I agreed with the speed rebalance so this is not a complaint about that. But it is a plea to tell the minmatar who only specializes in
minmatar ships on a direction we are supposed to go. anyone from ccp who specializes in minmatar please post. so i can say i was wrong and those ships will still be
viable to solo pvp in.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:09:00 -
[3330]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 21:10:16
Originally by: RuriHoshino
Originally by: McDonALTs The Nanoship can avoid engagement. Thats the only issue. No other ship can engage with minimum risk.
You're exactly right. Nano ships do not have high DPS, they do not tank actively OR passively. The only thing they can do better than any other ship is run away. If you cannot make them explode, it does not mean the game is broken, it means you do not know how to fight them effectively. Either you don't believe the countless explanations from experienced players on how to counter nano ships, or you've never bothered to read them. In either case, that is your failure, not the game's.
She is absolutely right. if you have never heard of carrying warrior II's in your drone bay, thats YOUR fault, not the broken game. again reference you to THIS MAIL to find out more about why this patch is about to nerf and fail eve
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Soulles
Caldari The SMITE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:18:00 -
[3331]
I think theres going to be more problems than a fix with the way they are implementing this. So instead of changing a little at a time your going to change allot dynamics thats going to bring more problems that we can expect to get fixed when? A year from now or longer? Sorry not acceptable.
I'm sorry but this is a sad way to treat your player base that pays to play your game. If I knew that all the problems would be ironed out before putting such a massive change into place I wouldn't worry much. But sadly there is still issues that have not been addressed with the changes you plan to make.
We still have issues from the past that haven't been worked out. You stated that we should try the changes on sisi before EMO quiting well After being on sisi I guess its time to go EMO.
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Soulles
Caldari The SMITE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:18:00 -
[3332]
I think theres going to be more problems than a fix with the way they are implementing this. So instead of changing a little at a time your going to change allot dynamics thats going to bring more problems that we can expect to get fixed when? A year from now or longer? Sorry not acceptable.
I'm sorry but this is a sad way to treat your player base that pays to play your game. If I knew that all the problems would be ironed out before putting such a massive change into place I wouldn't worry much. But sadly there is still issues that have not been addressed with the changes you plan to make.
We still have issues from the past that haven't been worked out. You stated that we should try the changes on sisi before EMO quiting well After being on sisi I guess its time to go EMO.
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Amarr Holymight
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:28:00 -
[3333]
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
Your main and his friends must be terrible pilots to allow that to happen, I pity you. I have just got off SISI my 200 mil Ishtar couldn't outrun a geddon two hyperions and a megas DPS so I guess at least, I have a good ratting ship or maybe I could use it for lowsec gatecamping. PvP will feel more like missions or large fleet encounters. So I'm just wondering what CCP think a HAC's new role is because I can't see any reason to fly them if I stand to lose that much ISK that easily.
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Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:28:00 -
[3334]
Originally by: McDonALTs Your gang jumps in to chase a nano mach. Nanomach jumps though the gate and you jump with him. nanomach instantly MWDs away at obscene speeds. As soon as you lock the nanomach with your sensor boosted rapier, the Nano mach is around 170km away and sniping you.
I am glad CCP is fixing these pathetic tactics and look forward to eve having a fantastic future again.
Your main and his friends must be terrible pilots to allow that to happen, I pity you. I have just got off SISI my 200 mil Ishtar couldn't outrun a geddon two hyperions and a megas DPS so I guess at least, I have a good ratting ship or maybe I could use it for lowsec gatecamping. PvP will feel more like missions or large fleet encounters. So I'm just wondering what CCP think a HAC's new role is because I can't see any reason to fly them if I stand to lose that much ISK that easily.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:37:00 -
[3335]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 21:39:21 Yeah true, everything is going to be slow, way too slow to be fun. If AB's become the mainstay of pvp propulsion, eve will be a mission grind, dull and boring.
This whole thing is nuts, I don't see why you can't, first of all, accept that the game is balanced as it is, second of all, merely stack nerf polycarbs and OD's to make them more in line with speed regulations or expectation. With nerfs like THAT, pvp will still be fun, as very near nothing will have changed, except those ships will be LESS infallible but still be able to actually TANK using their speed. HANDS DOWN the reason this nerf is dumb is because ships like the rapier are designed to defeat boats like the vaga. If you can't fly a rapier or have pilots in your gang who can. . .get more/better pilots. People know that you can beat a vaga, there are ships that can counter these speed demons, (rapier, curse) but no one is even looking into those. People KNOW there are nano gangs, why not come up with a gang to beat that game, not cry until CCP ruins eve by nerfing the speed of every ship, destroying the Minmatar and nerfing blaster boats to death, while ironically STIIILL making speed boats the best there are, since now EVERYTHING will be too slow to catch them.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:37:00 -
[3336]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 21:39:21 Yeah true, everything is going to be slow, way too slow to be fun. If AB's become the mainstay of pvp propulsion, eve will be a mission grind, dull and boring.
This whole thing is nuts, I don't see why you can't, first of all, accept that the game is balanced as it is, second of all, merely stack nerf polycarbs and OD's to make them more in line with speed regulations or expectation. With nerfs like THAT, pvp will still be fun, as very near nothing will have changed, except those ships will be LESS infallible but still be able to actually TANK using their speed. HANDS DOWN the reason this nerf is dumb is because ships like the rapier are designed to defeat boats like the vaga. If you can't fly a rapier or have pilots in your gang who can. . .get more/better pilots. People know that you can beat a vaga, there are ships that can counter these speed demons, (rapier, curse) but no one is even looking into those. People KNOW there are nano gangs, why not come up with a gang to beat that game, not cry until CCP ruins eve by nerfing the speed of every ship, destroying the Minmatar and nerfing blaster boats to death, while ironically STIIILL making speed boats the best there are, since now EVERYTHING will be too slow to catch them.
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Predator Irl
Caldari Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:40:00 -
[3337]
Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:45:06 Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:43:57
Originally by: Barsexual aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds [/quote
Well, get your facts right before you link to a site that has sweet FA up to date stats for me. Actually, I haven't been killed by a nano ship in a very long time, and only lost a few ratting ships when i started playing first, no shame in that.
Ive killed a few nano's so Im not agreeing with the nerf because i cant kill nano's, I certainly can. I probably didn't word what I said clear enough. I agree with the nerf in the sense that its too easy for a nano to escape a fight. I don't think they should cripple Mini, they should still have the fastest ships, but level things out.
Actually, the scram killing the MWD would suffice. I don't fly mini, but I do think its a pain in the ass to have someone to structure only for them to burn off. Im well aware of using neuts to kill nanos, and have done this with Amarr H also.
Caldari can nano too, but badly and have a very limited selection of ships.
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Predator Irl
Caldari Bat Country Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:40:00 -
[3338]
Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:45:06 Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:43:57
Originally by: Barsexual aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds [/quote
Well, get your facts right before you link to a site that has sweet FA up to date stats for me. Actually, I haven't been killed by a nano ship in a very long time, and only lost a few ratting ships when i started playing first, no shame in that.
Ive killed a few nano's so Im not agreeing with the nerf because i cant kill nano's, I certainly can. I probably didn't word what I said clear enough. I agree with the nerf in the sense that its too easy for a nano to escape a fight. I don't think they should cripple Mini, they should still have the fastest ships, but level things out.
Actually, the scram killing the MWD would suffice. I don't fly mini, but I do think its a pain in the ass to have someone to structure only for them to burn off. Im well aware of using neuts to kill nanos, and have done this with Amarr H also.
Caldari can nano too, but badly and have a very limited selection of ships.
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Psyrus Baine
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:45:00 -
[3339]
If the changes go through the way they are on sisi right now I wont be back. I understand that some setups was too fast but making every t2 Hac and recon I can fly complete crap (Between 2 accounts I can fly every T2 ship in the game) thats outclassed in every way to ships costing 1/4 the price is a kick in the nuts.
Feeling like a SOE game now. Guess the CCP I have supported for the last 4 years is gone.
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Psyrus Baine
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:45:00 -
[3340]
If the changes go through the way they are on sisi right now I wont be back. I understand that some setups was too fast but making every t2 Hac and recon I can fly complete crap (Between 2 accounts I can fly every T2 ship in the game) thats outclassed in every way to ships costing 1/4 the price is a kick in the nuts.
Feeling like a SOE game now. Guess the CCP I have supported for the last 4 years is gone.
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Pithecanthropus
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:46:00 -
[3341]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
That guy's the biggest dipshit ever, don't bother.
Also, I give it two weeks or less until he gets on his next nerf warpath.
I think you're just feeling the blunt of my brilliance and still recovering from head trauma. The naive and selfish players have to realize, Eve is not just a game to exploit, grief, and gank... its a game for multiple players and choose multiple paths.
The nerf turns you from being invincible to having risks. Speed is still effective and can be used in the way it was intended for with interceptors. Adapt, and learn. Change in inevitable. Dealing with it is YOUR problem, not mine.
Haakelen = a big loser --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Pithecanthropus
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 21:46:00 -
[3342]
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
That guy's the biggest dipshit ever, don't bother.
Also, I give it two weeks or less until he gets on his next nerf warpath.
I think you're just feeling the blunt of my brilliance and still recovering from head trauma. The naive and selfish players have to realize, Eve is not just a game to exploit, grief, and gank... its a game for multiple players and choose multiple paths.
The nerf turns you from being invincible to having risks. Speed is still effective and can be used in the way it was intended for with interceptors. Adapt, and learn. Change in inevitable. Dealing with it is YOUR problem, not mine.
Haakelen = a big loser --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Aura Mega
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:48:00 -
[3343]
I Think this is really unfair to the Minmatar's speed was our advantage the Gallente's have dps, Caldari's have snipering, and Amarr's have tank, if this hppens then Minmatar's should get better tank or better dps. This WILL effect the Minmatar's PVPing and and not in a good way. Maybe you should nerf Amarr's tanking, Caldari's range ,and Gallente's dps too so the playing fleid is truly even.
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Aura Mega
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:48:00 -
[3344]
I Think this is really unfair to the Minmatar's speed was our advantage the Gallente's have dps, Caldari's have snipering, and Amarr's have tank, if this hppens then Minmatar's should get better tank or better dps. This WILL effect the Minmatar's PVPing and and not in a good way. Maybe you should nerf Amarr's tanking, Caldari's range ,and Gallente's dps too so the playing fleid is truly even.
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Predator Irl
Caldari Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:56:00 -
[3345]
Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:56:28 One thing I will say about this nerf, is its going to make T2 HACs pretty useless, not many people will want to use them, when a cheaper alternative is available like a tanked BC or such, so maybe Im not as in favour of the nerf as I originally thought.
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Predator Irl
Caldari Bat Country Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:56:00 -
[3346]
Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:56:28 One thing I will say about this nerf, is its going to make T2 HACs pretty useless, not many people will want to use them, when a cheaper alternative is available like a tanked BC or such, so maybe Im not as in favour of the nerf as I originally thought.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:19:00 -
[3347]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:19:00 -
[3348]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
|
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:23:00 -
[3349]
Why the devs unstickied this thread?
this problem isn't going away.
|
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:23:00 -
[3350]
Why the devs unstickied this thread?
this problem isn't going away.
|
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:52:00 -
[3351]
Originally by: Predator Irl Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:45:06 Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:43:57
Originally by: Barsexual aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds [/quote
Well, get your facts right before you link to a site that has sweet FA up to date stats for me. Actually, I haven't been killed by a nano ship in a very long time, and only lost a few ratting ships when i started playing first, no shame in that.
Ive killed a few nano's so Im not agreeing with the nerf because i cant kill nano's, I certainly can. I probably didn't word what I said clear enough. I agree with the nerf in the sense that its too easy for a nano to escape a fight. I don't think they should cripple Mini, they should still have the fastest ships, but level things out.
Actually, the scram killing the MWD would suffice. I don't fly mini, but I do think its a pain in the ass to have someone to structure only for them to burn off. Im well aware of using neuts to kill nanos, and have done this with Amarr H also.
Caldari can nano too, but badly and have a very limited selection of ships.
Right, I wasn't saying (as i had also linked your loss there in a post) that you suck or anything, but do cry when they lose ships like that. I too have killed nano pilots and it's not as hard or impossible even as people do think; there are counter fits to the nano fit, as there is a counter to everything else. I agree though, there needs to be a nerf, but not the proposed one. Scram turning off mwd is fine, and a good way to make that module I've sold a billion of useful for a change. Do that and stacking penalize propulsion modules a percentage and you've got yourself a deal. Slowing down every ship in eve is not only ignorant (of the inherent issues with the fight styles of certain races and ships), its stupid and will take a lot of fun out of the game. I'm not playing a game thats not fun :P
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:52:00 -
[3352]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 23:02:32 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 23:01:43 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 22:58:17 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 22:57:43 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 30/07/2008 22:57:26
Originally by: Predator Irl Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:45:06 Edited by: Predator Irl on 30/07/2008 21:43:57
Originally by: Barsexual aww look someone lost a bunch of their ratting ships to vagabonds [/quote
Well, get your facts right before you link to a site that has sweet FA up to date stats for me. Actually, I haven't been killed by a nano ship in a very long time, and only lost a few ratting ships when i started playing first, no shame in that.
Ive killed a few nano's so Im not agreeing with the nerf because i cant kill nano's, I certainly can. I probably didn't word what I said clear enough. I agree with the nerf in the sense that its too easy for a nano to escape a fight. I don't think they should cripple Mini, they should still have the fastest ships, but level things out.
Actually, the scram killing the MWD would suffice. I don't fly mini, but I do think its a pain in the ass to have someone to structure only for them to burn off. Im well aware of using neuts to kill nanos, and have done this with Amarr H also.
Caldari can nano too, but badly and have a very limited selection of ships.
Right, I wasn't saying (as i had also linked your loss there in a post) that you suck or anything, but people do cry when they lose ships like that. I too have killed nano pilots and it's not as hard or impossible even as people do think; there are counter fits to the nano fit, as there is a counter to everything else. I agree though, there needs to be a nerf, but not the proposed one. Scram turning off mwd is fine, and a good way to make that module I've sold a billion of useful for a change. Do that and stacking penalize propulsion modules a percentage and you've got yourself a deal; speed is still a viable option (now instead of 3.5k/ms you can move like 2.9 or something with penalties, which i still a great tank speed) and nothing else is changed, and pvp gets more interesting with the scram thing as well. Slowing down every ship in eve is not only ignorant (of the inherent issues with the fight styles of certain races and ships), its stupid and will take a lot of fun out of the game. I'm not playing a game thats not fun :P also is there ANY WAY any way AT ALL to contact CCP personally for a discussion? ican write emails and post in here all damn day, but have no way of knowing if they even care or are even reading this and these and all the posts of all the pilots who have issues here.
|
Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:05:00 -
[3353]
LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
|
Wizzkidy
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:05:00 -
[3354]
LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:37:00 -
[3355]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
You and the rest of CCP are ***gots for bringing this nerf. CCP just BROKE EVE
thats my honest opinion
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:37:00 -
[3356]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
You and the rest of CCP are ***gots for bringing this nerf. CCP just BROKE EVE
thats my honest opinion
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:40:00 -
[3357]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
die in a fire
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:40:00 -
[3358]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
die in a fire
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:42:00 -
[3359]
I think Nohz or what ever should be banned from EVE and have his GM status revoked. He seriously just broke EVE and i think he stinks to.
|
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:42:00 -
[3360]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
Your post is really unclear, do you mean to say that NANOships owned the RR BS gangs etc.? How in the hell did you have a mixed gang without a huginn/rapier/curse/neut-ship and lost to a nano-gang? Dear Sir if that is the case you simply suck at tactics.
If your post means to imply the opposite, then you just need to learn how to write more clearly.
|
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:42:00 -
[3361]
I think Nohz or what ever should be banned from EVE and have his GM status revoked. He seriously just broke EVE and i think he stinks to.
|
Aenis Veros
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:42:00 -
[3362]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
Your post is really unclear, do you mean to say that NANOships owned the RR BS gangs etc.? How in the hell did you have a mixed gang without a huginn/rapier/curse/neut-ship and lost to a nano-gang? Dear Sir if that is the case you simply suck at tactics.
If your post means to imply the opposite, then you just need to learn how to write more clearly.
|
Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:44:00 -
[3363]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
LOL I bet you are a clueless carebear who have no idea how to counter nanoships and cry nerf when your inability to perform reaches critical. Don't deny it.
|
Aenis Veros
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:44:00 -
[3364]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
LOL I bet you are a clueless carebear who have no idea how to counter nanoships and cry nerf when your inability to perform reaches critical. Don't deny it.
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:46:00 -
[3365]
Garmon should be EXEMPT from this ENTIRE NERF and should become GOD of EVE. He is the true internet cyber hero and should be rewarded for his heroic actions.
1. He should NEVER be banned from the forums or EVE AGAIN 2. GM's shall bow to him 3. CCP shall give him free officer mods and also bow to him 4. CCP Wrangler should resign as part of the Dev Team and give it to Garmon
|
Gui Montog
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:46:00 -
[3366]
Garmon should be EXEMPT from this ENTIRE NERF and should become GOD of EVE. He is the true internet cyber hero and should be rewarded for his heroic actions.
1. He should NEVER be banned from the forums or EVE AGAIN 2. GM's shall bow to him 3. CCP shall give him free officer mods and also bow to him 4. CCP Wrangler should resign as part of the Dev Team and give it to Garmon
|
TimGascoigne
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:57:00 -
[3367]
this has suddenly removed one third of the effectiveness of the huginn, Rapier and hyena.
thanks CCP
|
TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:57:00 -
[3368]
this has suddenly removed one third of the effectiveness of the huginn, Rapier and hyena.
thanks CCP
|
Psyflame
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:12:00 -
[3369]
Ok question.
The "discovery" of this speed problem was when this Nozh guy couldn't hit a vaga with his missiles, yes? Well I must inquire, if that "ludicrously speedy" vaga wasn't taking damage, how well were his turrets tracking, and just how much damage was the vaga putting onto target? (I have never flown a vagabond so I don't know)
Also, my torp raven is now decimating nano-hacs on sisi. Much thanks ccp, now my battleship class weapons can destroy those cruisers who try to avoid damage... but that brings up another question. Does ccp plan to fix defender missiles? Defenders are a JOKE (tested them with max skills on armageddon day) and I honestly see no viable counter to missiles on the test server. I use tracking disrupters on turret ships, but missiles strike with impunity.
Does this seem broken to anyone else? Missiles are getting a huge buff and there are no counters to them, unlike other weapons. At least I can enjoy my insanely overpowered torpedo raven for a few months while the devs realize they made a game-breaking superweapon.
My suggestion would be to tone down polycarbs (make them in line with the other rigs,) tone down heat (overheated mwd gets 50% boost while everything else only gets ~15% boost, if you don't want insane speeds, why the lack of uniformity in poly's and heat?) and maybe add an umbrella stacking penalty for speed mods.
Nerfs are NEVER popular, how about a buff instead? You want afterburners to be viable, me too. How about boosting afterburners instead of these mwd-shutoff shenannigans? You want to change webs, how about scripted webs? 10km 90% vs 20km 40%, limit rapiers, huginns, and hyenas to the "original" script as to not make them overpowered.
I don't know, just some ideas that everyone will probably ignore.
|
Nzpure
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:12:00 -
[3370]
The nerf is BS and thats coming from someone who hates nano ships casue they outrun my missiles but you still shouldn't kill nano bollucks i say absolute bollucks
|
|
Psyflame
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:12:00 -
[3371]
Ok question.
The "discovery" of this speed problem was when this Nozh guy couldn't hit a vaga with his missiles, yes? Well I must inquire, if that "ludicrously speedy" vaga wasn't taking damage, how well were his turrets tracking, and just how much damage was the vaga putting onto target? (I have never flown a vagabond so I don't know)
Also, my torp raven is now decimating nano-hacs on sisi. Much thanks ccp, now my battleship class weapons can destroy those cruisers who try to avoid damage... but that brings up another question. Does ccp plan to fix defender missiles? Defenders are a JOKE (tested them with max skills on armageddon day) and I honestly see no viable counter to missiles on the test server. I use tracking disrupters on turret ships, but missiles strike with impunity.
Does this seem broken to anyone else? Missiles are getting a huge buff and there are no counters to them, unlike other weapons. At least I can enjoy my insanely overpowered torpedo raven for a few months while the devs realize they made a game-breaking superweapon.
My suggestion would be to tone down polycarbs (make them in line with the other rigs,) tone down heat (overheated mwd gets 50% boost while everything else only gets ~15% boost, if you don't want insane speeds, why the lack of uniformity in poly's and heat?) and maybe add an umbrella stacking penalty for speed mods.
Nerfs are NEVER popular, how about a buff instead? You want afterburners to be viable, me too. How about boosting afterburners instead of these mwd-shutoff shenannigans? You want to change webs, how about scripted webs? 10km 90% vs 20km 40%, limit rapiers, huginns, and hyenas to the "original" script as to not make them overpowered.
I don't know, just some ideas that everyone will probably ignore.
|
Nzpure
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:12:00 -
[3372]
The nerf is BS and thats coming from someone who hates nano ships casue they outrun my missiles but you still shouldn't kill nano bollucks i say absolute bollucks
|
GateScout
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:36:00 -
[3373]
What a bunch of whiny *****es. Have you ever seen a more pathetic conglomerate of complaining ****s?
There are valid reasons for altering the method CCP uses to nerf nano ships... So please stop the "I trained my whole career to fly nano ship..." NO ONES CARES.
Form valid arguments and maybe (MAYBE!) ccp will listen to you. However, with the insane amount of pure bullshit in this thread, no wonder CCP ignores your whines.
Format a semi-decent argument and stop whining...you pathetic shits.
|
GateScout
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:36:00 -
[3374]
What a bunch of whiny *****es. Have you ever seen a more pathetic conglomerate of complaining ****s?
There are valid reasons for altering the method CCP uses to nerf nano ships... So please stop the "I trained my whole career to fly nano ship..." NO ONES CARES.
Form valid arguments and maybe (MAYBE!) ccp will listen to you. However, with the insane amount of pure bullshit in this thread, no wonder CCP ignores your whines.
Format a semi-decent argument and stop whining...you pathetic shits.
|
Amarr Holymight
Bat Country Aegis Militia
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:51:00 -
[3375]
Originally by: GateScout What a bunch of whiny *****es. Have you ever seen a more pathetic conglomerate of complaining ****s?
There are valid reasons for altering the method CCP uses to nerf nano ships... So please stop the "I trained my whole career to fly nano ship..." NO ONES CARES.
Form valid arguments and maybe (MAYBE!) ccp will listen to you. However, with the insane amount of pure bullshit in this thread, no wonder CCP ignores your whines.
Format a semi-decent argument and stop whining...you pathetic shits.
Practice what you preach oh and use your main to flame it's unbecoming to do it with an alt.
|
Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:51:00 -
[3376]
Originally by: GateScout What a bunch of whiny *****es. Have you ever seen a more pathetic conglomerate of complaining ****s?
There are valid reasons for altering the method CCP uses to nerf nano ships... So please stop the "I trained my whole career to fly nano ship..." NO ONES CARES.
Form valid arguments and maybe (MAYBE!) ccp will listen to you. However, with the insane amount of pure bullshit in this thread, no wonder CCP ignores your whines.
Format a semi-decent argument and stop whining...you pathetic shits.
Practice what you preach oh and use your main to flame it's unbecoming to do it with an alt.
|
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:43:00 -
[3377]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
Errr... even before this patch, nanos would die if the defending group would know what to do... The issue is not that one, the question is that due to flaws in game modules design it is possible to reach stupid speeds completly distorting the roles of each ship class.
________________ God is my Wingman |
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:43:00 -
[3378]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 30/07/2008 22:28:33 We have tested:
1. NANO VS snipers....snipers owned.
2. NANO VS battle cruisers/hacs and recons(general mix tbh)..mixed fleet owned.
3. NANO VS RR bs....rr bs fleet owned.
4. NANO VS Other nano (although im not sure why)...lol.
Conventionally Tanked hacs/recons/BS vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
5. Conventionally Tanked hacs vs a mixed gang of BC....mixed gang of BC owned.
All nano ships had HG snakes and were T2 fitted and had a claymore in gang.
In all of the serious tests the hacs lost all if not 90% of there fleet while the other ships lost nothing in also virtually all casses.
And in all cases we made it so the gangs were of similar size (10-20 SHIPS ON EACH SIDE) a consideration that i doubt many defending alliances will follow.
The guys assigned as the "hacs/roaming gang" eventually got p*ssed off and hot dropped the assigned "defender team" with a large fleet of RR bs and carriers.
Errr... even before this patch, nanos would die if the defending group would know what to do... The issue is not that one, the question is that due to flaws in game modules design it is possible to reach stupid speeds completly distorting the roles of each ship class.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:44:00 -
[3379]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
I didn't have to go far to find someone had already posted my thoughts.
Terrible change. ALl your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine. We think you should do something about why we have to fly nano ships to do something fun with less than 400 people.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:44:00 -
[3380]
Originally by: Space Flyer THANKS CCP for killing the only way that we all had to fight blobs outnumbered in this game... really THANKS!
I didn't have to go far to find someone had already posted my thoughts.
Terrible change. ALl your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine. We think you should do something about why we have to fly nano ships to do something fun with less than 400 people.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:51:00 -
[3381]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
I'd like to quote this in the hope against hope that even one more person sees it. I have never been so worried that the game will die as I am now. Where is the guerilla warfare?
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:51:00 -
[3382]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
I'd like to quote this in the hope against hope that even one more person sees it. I have never been so worried that the game will die as I am now. Where is the guerilla warfare?
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Atlanticpyro
The Space BorderLine United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:20:00 -
[3383]
Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off. |
Atlanticpyro
The Space BorderLine United For 0rder
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:20:00 -
[3384]
Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:24:00 -
[3385]
Originally by: Spindeln Being able to kill anything with numbers while being untouchable by speed is just stupid.
If I sacrifice all my slots to armourtanking I dont become invincible, I last a little longer. If I go full gank I still can't instapop everything, I do a bit more damage. If I go full speed, I can outrun everything. Drones, missiles, tracking of guns, tacklers...
Ships with MWD only (blasterboats, sniping ships) will be mostly unaffected if I read the devs correctly.
Blasters might suffer from the web nerf, but time on SiSi will tell and give ample opportunity to fix that.
Speedships will still be fast, just not untouchably fast.
Now Harden the **** up.
Go Nozh! Don't let the weak sway you from the true path!
You have no clue what youre talking about. Every point you list here is flat wrong. Full speed cant outrun everything. Full gank doesnt cost billions, blasters will be VERY affected. Speed is not just a strategy its a TANK you dont fit reppers, and you count on being able to GTFO before you run out of shield. Its a tank.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:24:00 -
[3386]
Originally by: Spindeln Being able to kill anything with numbers while being untouchable by speed is just stupid.
If I sacrifice all my slots to armourtanking I dont become invincible, I last a little longer. If I go full gank I still can't instapop everything, I do a bit more damage. If I go full speed, I can outrun everything. Drones, missiles, tracking of guns, tacklers...
Ships with MWD only (blasterboats, sniping ships) will be mostly unaffected if I read the devs correctly.
Blasters might suffer from the web nerf, but time on SiSi will tell and give ample opportunity to fix that.
Speedships will still be fast, just not untouchably fast.
Now Harden the **** up.
Go Nozh! Don't let the weak sway you from the true path!
You have no clue what youre talking about. Every point you list here is flat wrong. Full speed cant outrun everything. Full gank doesnt cost billions, blasters will be VERY affected. Speed is not just a strategy its a TANK you dont fit reppers, and you count on being able to GTFO before you run out of shield. Its a tank.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:37:00 -
[3387]
Edited by: Sylthi on 31/07/2008 04:44:13
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
I have to agree with this. Absoultely. I mean, let me count the ways:
Minmatar have some of the worst shield and armor (numbered) tanks in the game. This is greatly offset by a skilled pilot that knows how to use speed as part of their tank.
Despite what everyone claims, I find artillery can be an effective weapon, in PvP and PvE. BUT, for it to be effective you MUST have a speed advantage so you can manage transverse and angular.
Autocannons are a wonderful weapon system. BUT, for them to be effective you have to perform the merge as QUICKLY as possible. To do this, you need, you guessed it, SPEED.
So, if you take speed away from the minmatar, what do they have left? Exactly?
Oh, and on a final note, the base speeds on entire classes of ships haven't been modified in over 4 years. Doing so now is pure insanity. AND: You slow down EVERYONE and EVEYTHING so that by default missiles get a huge boost. So, in turn, you are slowing down missiles. When the F*CK did "nano-nerf" turn into "eve-nerf"?!!? Come on devs!! WAKE UP!! You are changing the entire game to take care of a few (perceived) problem ships and players. Talk about using a broadsword to do the work of a scalpel.....
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:37:00 -
[3388]
Edited by: Sylthi on 31/07/2008 04:45:43
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
I have to agree with this. Absoultely. I mean, let me count the ways:
Minmatar have some of the worst shield and armor (numbered) tanks in the game. This is greatly offset by a skilled pilot that knows how to use speed as part of their tank.
Despite what everyone claims, I find artillery can be an effective weapon, in PvP and PvE. BUT, for it to be effective you MUST have a speed advantage so you can manage transverse and angular.
Autocannons are a wonderful weapon system. BUT, for them to be effective you have to perform the merge as QUICKLY as possible. To do this, you need, you guessed it, SPEED.
So, if you take speed away from the minmatar, what do they have left? Exactly? The need to train another race I suppose....
Oh, and on a final note, the base speeds on entire classes of ships haven't been modified in over 4 years. Doing so now is pure insanity. AND: You slow down EVERYONE and EVEYTHING so that by default missiles get a huge boost. So, in turn, you are slowing down missiles. When the F*CK did "nano-nerf" turn into "eve-nerf"?!!? Come on devs!! WAKE UP!! You are changing the entire game to take care of a few (perceived) problem ships and players. Talk about using a broadsword to do the work of a scalpel.....
*
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Shagrath Neptune
Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:47:00 -
[3389]
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
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Shagrath Neptune
Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:47:00 -
[3390]
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 05:09:00 -
[3391]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Nozh: What the hell game are you playing? Its certainly not eve. Please underrstand that there are many viable counters to nanos and none aside from speedtanks to blobs, and snake sets are not the status quo.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 05:09:00 -
[3392]
Originally by: CCP Nozh Answering a few common questions:
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.
- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.
Specialized webifing & MWD ships have dated bonsues.
- We'll keep a close eye on these ships once the changes hit SISI.
Death to small roaming gangs
- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.
Nozh: What the hell game are you playing? Its certainly not eve. Please underrstand that there are many viable counters to nanos and none aside from speedtanks to blobs, and snake sets are not the status quo.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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DRMALIKIA
Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat
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Posted - 2008.07.31 05:15:00 -
[3393]
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Define broken game mechanic? Pilots used their smarts, what they had available, and came up with a good tactic, SPEED. So now because "The Powers that Be" have taken notice and dub this "Ahmish Cart Speed" is too fast, it is a broken game mechanic? How the hell does that logic work?
CCP has a great capacity to give players tools and resources to be inventive in game. When pilots are inventive and CCP does not like that ingenuity, they nerf it. This happens time and time again, and to be honest it gets old. At the point that they (CCP) keep removing those inventive freedoms through nerfs, restructuring, buffs, etc. the game will be shedding players as fast as it adds them. New blood in, old blood out. Adapt or die. Can we get a frigging break here? I am tired of having to relearn the damn game every 6 months.
CCP's sand box will eventually turn into Hello Kitty with ships that all have the same speed, stats, and pilots all with identical ages/skills. I am so excited! For once, stop tinkering with the game, go work on walking in stations or something that will attract new players and stop fing around with everyone. Like a damn roller coaster ride around EVE every 6 months. CCP you are the cause of 90% of your own issues because you nerf something one way, players have to adapt to another method of game play. Then you nerf something else, and they adapt again. It is a vicious circle. Blobs, bring a NANO gang. NANO gangs, Huginn/Rapiers are introduced. First the comical "Need for Speed Initiative", now the "Wait too Much Speed, Slow Down Everyone Initiative". I give up. Make up your damn minds and stick with something, stop stirring the pot and ****ing the community off all the time.
Tools have been provided to counter NANO setups. "Ludicrous Speed" comes at a very high cost and who cares if they go 50 bazillion miles an hour, they can still die with current game mechanics. The player base is just to stupid to figure it out.
DR blue.dll Error CCP FIX IT ALREADY! |
DRMALIKIA
Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:15:00 -
[3394]
Edited by: DRMALIKIA on 31/07/2008 05:20:48
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Define broken game mechanic? Pilots used their smarts, what they had available, and came up with a good tactic, SPEED. So now because "The Powers that Be" have taken notice and dub this "Ahmish Cart Speed" is too fast, it is a broken game mechanic? How the hell does that logic work?
CCP has a great capacity to give players tools and resources to be inventive in game. When pilots are inventive and CCP does not like that ingenuity, they nerf it. This happens time and time again, and to be honest it gets old. At the point that they (CCP) keep removing those inventive freedoms through nerfs, restructuring, buffs, etc. the game will be shedding players as fast as it adds them. New blood in, old blood out. Adapt or die. Can we get a frigging break here? I am tired of having to relearn the damn game every 6 months.
CCP's sand box will eventually turn into Hello Kitty with ships that all have the same speed, stats, and pilots all with identical ages/skills. I am so excited! For once, stop tinkering with the game, go work on walking in stations or something that will attract new players and stop fing around with everyone. Like a damn roller coaster ride around EVE every 6 months. CCP you are the cause of 90% of your own issues because you nerf something one way, players have to adapt to another method of game play. Then you nerf something else, and they adapt again. It is a vicious circle. Blobs, bring a NANO gang. NANO gangs, Huginn/Rapiers are introduced. First the comical "Need for Speed Initiative", now the "Wait too Much Speed, Slow Down Everyone Initiative". I give up. Make up your damn minds and stick with something, stop stirring the pot and ****ing the community off all the time.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOME CCP EMPLOYEE SITTING AROUND THE OFFICE TRYING TO JUSTIFY HIS JOB!!!!! LEAVE SHIITE ALONE!!!!!
Tools have been provided to counter NANO setups. "Ludicrous Speed" comes at a very high cost and who cares if they go 50 bazillion miles an hour, they can still die with current game mechanics. The player base is just to stupid to figure it out.
DR blue.dll Error CCP FIX IT ALREADY! |
Shagrath Neptune
Series of Tubes
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:39:00 -
[3395]
Originally by: DRMALIKIA Edited by: DRMALIKIA on 31/07/2008 05:20:48
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Define broken game mechanic? Pilots used their smarts, what they had available, and came up with a good tactic, SPEED. So now because "The Powers that Be" have taken notice and dub this "Ahmish Cart Speed" is too fast, it is a broken game mechanic? How the hell does that logic work?
CCP has a great capacity to give players tools and resources to be inventive in game. When pilots are inventive and CCP does not like that ingenuity, they nerf it. This happens time and time again, and to be honest it gets old. At the point that they (CCP) keep removing those inventive freedoms through nerfs, restructuring, buffs, etc. the game will be shedding players as fast as it adds them. New blood in, old blood out. Adapt or die. Can we get a frigging break here? I am tired of having to relearn the damn game every 6 months.
CCP's sand box will eventually turn into Hello Kitty with ships that all have the same speed, stats, and pilots all with identical ages/skills. I am so excited! For once, stop tinkering with the game, go work on walking in stations or something that will attract new players and stop fing around with everyone. Like a damn roller coaster ride around EVE every 6 months. CCP you are the cause of 90% of your own issues because you nerf something one way, players have to adapt to another method of game play. Then you nerf something else, and they adapt again. It is a vicious circle. Blobs, bring a NANO gang. NANO gangs, Huginn/Rapiers are introduced. First the comical "Need for Speed Initiative", now the "Wait too Much Speed, Slow Down Everyone Initiative". I give up. Make up your damn minds and stick with something, stop stirring the pot and ****ing the community off all the time.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOME CCP EMPLOYEE SITTING AROUND THE OFFICE TRYING TO JUSTIFY HIS JOB!!!!! LEAVE SHIITE ALONE!!!!!
Tools have been provided to counter NANO setups. "Ludicrous Speed" comes at a very high cost and who cares if they go 50 bazillion miles an hour, they can still die with current game mechanics. The player base is just to stupid to figure it out.
DR
Okay. Broken game mechanic = Drones and missiles not hitting the targets they are intended to hit.
There is nothing wrong with players being inventive but when what they come up with goes outside what the devs intended, it is broken. The devs agree with that so don't bother arguing with me about it. Just read the log from this thread.
And no, the player base isn't stupid or lazy. I know you nano people say that to help you sleep better at night though. More like the player base knows it wasn't intended to be in the game.
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Shagrath Neptune
Series of Tubes
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 05:39:00 -
[3396]
Originally by: DRMALIKIA Edited by: DRMALIKIA on 31/07/2008 05:20:48
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Define broken game mechanic? Pilots used their smarts, what they had available, and came up with a good tactic, SPEED. So now because "The Powers that Be" have taken notice and dub this "Ahmish Cart Speed" is too fast, it is a broken game mechanic? How the hell does that logic work?
CCP has a great capacity to give players tools and resources to be inventive in game. When pilots are inventive and CCP does not like that ingenuity, they nerf it. This happens time and time again, and to be honest it gets old. At the point that they (CCP) keep removing those inventive freedoms through nerfs, restructuring, buffs, etc. the game will be shedding players as fast as it adds them. New blood in, old blood out. Adapt or die. Can we get a frigging break here? I am tired of having to relearn the damn game every 6 months.
CCP's sand box will eventually turn into Hello Kitty with ships that all have the same speed, stats, and pilots all with identical ages/skills. I am so excited! For once, stop tinkering with the game, go work on walking in stations or something that will attract new players and stop fing around with everyone. Like a damn roller coaster ride around EVE every 6 months. CCP you are the cause of 90% of your own issues because you nerf something one way, players have to adapt to another method of game play. Then you nerf something else, and they adapt again. It is a vicious circle. Blobs, bring a NANO gang. NANO gangs, Huginn/Rapiers are introduced. First the comical "Need for Speed Initiative", now the "Wait too Much Speed, Slow Down Everyone Initiative". I give up. Make up your damn minds and stick with something, stop stirring the pot and ****ing the community off all the time.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE SOME CCP EMPLOYEE SITTING AROUND THE OFFICE TRYING TO JUSTIFY HIS JOB!!!!! LEAVE SHIITE ALONE!!!!!
Tools have been provided to counter NANO setups. "Ludicrous Speed" comes at a very high cost and who cares if they go 50 bazillion miles an hour, they can still die with current game mechanics. The player base is just to stupid to figure it out.
DR
Okay. Broken game mechanic = Drones and missiles not hitting the targets they are intended to hit.
There is nothing wrong with players being inventive but when what they come up with goes outside what the devs intended, it is broken. The devs agree with that so don't bother arguing with me about it. Just read the log from this thread.
And no, the player base isn't stupid or lazy. I know you nano people say that to help you sleep better at night though. More like the player base knows it wasn't intended to be in the game.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:06:00 -
[3397]
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Okay. Broken game mechanic = Drones and missiles not hitting the targets they are intended to hit.
There is nothing wrong with players being inventive but when what they come up with goes outside what the devs intended, it is broken. The devs agree with that so don't bother arguing with me about it. Just read the log from this thread.
And no, the player base isn't stupid or lazy. I know you nano people say that to help you sleep better at night though. More like the player base knows it wasn't intended to be in the game.
No. A broken game mechanic would be drones and missiles hitting EVERYTHING. Thats what this patch does. Turrets can be out-tracked, out ranged, jammed with ECM or damps, had their range cut.
When will the carebears learn that balance is NOT about making everything even, but making everything "rock vs paper vs scissors" Some things get WTFpwned by the right other things and that is JUST FINE THANK YOU.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:06:00 -
[3398]
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Okay. Broken game mechanic = Drones and missiles not hitting the targets they are intended to hit.
There is nothing wrong with players being inventive but when what they come up with goes outside what the devs intended, it is broken. The devs agree with that so don't bother arguing with me about it. Just read the log from this thread.
And no, the player base isn't stupid or lazy. I know you nano people say that to help you sleep better at night though. More like the player base knows it wasn't intended to be in the game.
No. A broken game mechanic would be drones and missiles hitting EVERYTHING. Thats what this patch does. Turrets can be out-tracked, out ranged, jammed with ECM or damps, had their range cut.
When will the carebears learn that balance is NOT about making everything even, but making everything "rock vs paper vs scissors" Some things get WTFpwned by the right other things and that is JUST FINE THANK YOU.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Kayla Starfire
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:32:00 -
[3399]
Nozh says that there are ships in the game that can go so fast that they can break the physics engine, and that these ships/mods/implants need to be adjusted so they can't do that anymore. Along with this, he says that he wants to make nano-boats easier to catch and kill, making speed tanking a LOT less effective than it is now. Fine. Whatever. Do what you have to do as long as it is done in a carefully thought out manner that targets and affects ONLY THE OFFENDERS YOU ARE AFTER. (Of course, the balance devs NEVER carefully think out ANYTHING they do, but that is beside the point.)
Next, Nozh says that he wants to "balance" the classes of ships so that their speeds are more in line with what he "envisions" as to be proper. I.E. A more even slope going down from interceptors on one end to super capital chips on the other. Fine. Whatever. Do what you have to do as long as it is done in a carefully thought out manner. (Again, the balance devs NEVER carefully think out ANYTHING they do, but, AGAIN, that is beside the point.)
Having said the above, we now we get to my main questions: If these two things are REALLY Nozh's main goals, why does he find it necessary to make ships that were already slow, slower? BOTH of the above goals can be achieved (quite easily) WITHOUT touching the base speed stat of a single battleship. So, why are ALL of the base battleship speed stats being lowered 5-20%? For that matter, BOTH of the above goals can be achieved without touching the base speed stat of ANY ship. So again, why is the entire player base being nerfed to take care of a few extreme cases and because it is simply something that Nozh "envisions"? Why is Nozh acting like EVERYONE has a couple of full high-grade snake sets in their hangar just waiting to be used? Why is Nozh taking a hatchet to Overdrives, which is one of the first things a new(ish) player can use in their low slots to make their ship go faster? If Nozh is trying to make nano ships easier to catch and damage, why is he also cutting webber effectiveness by 33-60%?
To be honest, I don't think Nozh himself has any good answers for these questions because he hasn't thought any of this through. Or, perhaps he has blinders on as he plows inexorably forward towards whatever his twisted end "vision" is; and damn everyone and everything that gets in his way. Or, maybe he simply just doesn't care and he is trying to find an excuse to justify his paycheck.
I dunno. But, raising the questions to the public made me feel like I had my say. Not that anyone is listening.
I guess we'll all have a lot more time to wave at each other in local as our ships crawl at a snail's pace towards each other.....
Moving on....
|
Kayla Starfire
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:32:00 -
[3400]
Nozh says that there are ships in the game that can go so fast that they can break the physics engine, and that these ships/mods/implants need to be adjusted so they can't do that anymore. Along with this, he says that he wants to make nano-boats easier to catch and kill, making speed tanking a LOT less effective than it is now. Fine. Whatever. Do what you have to do as long as it is done in a carefully thought out manner that targets and affects ONLY THE OFFENDERS YOU ARE AFTER. (Of course, the balance devs NEVER carefully think out ANYTHING they do, but that is beside the point.)
Next, Nozh says that he wants to "balance" the classes of ships so that their speeds are more in line with what he "envisions" as to be proper. I.E. A more even slope going down from interceptors on one end to super capital chips on the other. Fine. Whatever. Do what you have to do as long as it is done in a carefully thought out manner. (Again, the balance devs NEVER carefully think out ANYTHING they do, but, AGAIN, that is beside the point.)
Having said the above, we now we get to my main questions: If these two things are REALLY Nozh's main goals, why does he find it necessary to make ships that were already slow, slower? BOTH of the above goals can be achieved (quite easily) WITHOUT touching the base speed stat of a single battleship. So, why are ALL of the base battleship speed stats being lowered 5-20%? For that matter, BOTH of the above goals can be achieved without touching the base speed stat of ANY ship. So again, why is the entire player base being nerfed to take care of a few extreme cases and because it is simply something that Nozh "envisions"? Why is Nozh acting like EVERYONE has a couple of full high-grade snake sets in their hangar just waiting to be used? Why is Nozh taking a hatchet to Overdrives, which is one of the first things a new(ish) player can use in their low slots to make their ship go faster? If Nozh is trying to make nano ships easier to catch and damage, why is he also cutting webber effectiveness by 33-60%?
To be honest, I don't think Nozh himself has any good answers for these questions because he hasn't thought any of this through. Or, perhaps he has blinders on as he plows inexorably forward towards whatever his twisted end "vision" is; and damn everyone and everything that gets in his way. Or, maybe he simply just doesn't care and he is trying to find an excuse to justify his paycheck.
I dunno. But, raising the questions to the public made me feel like I had my say. Not that anyone is listening.
I guess we'll all have a lot more time to wave at each other in local as our ships crawl at a snail's pace towards each other.....
Moving on....
|
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:47:00 -
[3401]
Yeah kayla, I'm reading, and I'm buying what you're selling.
Unfortunately, youre preaching to the choir.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:47:00 -
[3402]
Yeah kayla, I'm reading, and I'm buying what you're selling.
Unfortunately, youre preaching to the choir.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Lacco
Expedition and Engineering
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:58:00 -
[3403]
too many pages... i didnt read it.
nice balance though, I like it! I'm on TV! I'm famous! |
Lacco
Cool Ninjas of Awesome Ownage
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 06:58:00 -
[3404]
too many pages... i didnt read it.
nice balance though, I like it! I'm on TV! I'm famous! |
Lilth Hellspire
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:08:00 -
[3405]
Edited by: Lilth Hellspire on 31/07/2008 07:12:09 First lets get this out of the way: Yes, I am a mission runner and NPC ratter. I enjoy both. Sue me. Hate me. Trash talk me. Flame me. I really couldn't care less.
One question: Are the NPCs going to get hit as hard by the speed (and module/implant) nerf-bat as we players are? Or are they going to be unaffected by this change as they are unaffected by MOST of CCP's sweeping, poorly planned, even more poorly implemented changes?
If they are affected by these changes, then this issue is really a NON-issue for me as it only has drastic implications to PvP, which I admittedly do not do often.
If the NPCs are NOT going to be affected by these changes (as is standard) then this is a massive blow to (low SP players getting into) PvE AS WELL as all players in PvP.
Any comments from Nozh (or other devs) on this would be greatly appreciated.
|
Lilth Hellspire
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:08:00 -
[3406]
Edited by: Lilth Hellspire on 31/07/2008 07:12:09 First lets get this out of the way: Yes, I am a mission runner and NPC ratter. I enjoy both. Sue me. Hate me. Trash talk me. Flame me. I really couldn't care less.
One question: Are the NPCs going to get hit as hard by the speed (and module/implant) nerf-bat as we players are? Or are they going to be unaffected by this change as they are unaffected by MOST of CCP's sweeping, poorly planned, even more poorly implemented changes?
If they are affected by these changes, then this issue is really a NON-issue for me as it only has drastic implications to PvP, which I admittedly do not do often.
If the NPCs are NOT going to be affected by these changes (as is standard) then this is a massive blow to (low SP players getting into) PvE AS WELL as all players in PvP.
Any comments from Nozh (or other devs) on this would be greatly appreciated.
|
R McGunne
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:19:00 -
[3407]
Originally by: Kayla Starfire
Not that anyone is listening.
This. 128 pages and almost 4000 opinions. Wasting your time. |
R McGunne
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 07:19:00 -
[3408]
Originally by: Kayla Starfire
Not that anyone is listening.
This. 128 pages and almost 4000 opinions. Wasting your time. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:02:00 -
[3409]
Originally by: Lilth Hellspire Edited by: Lilth Hellspire on 31/07/2008 07:12:09 First lets get this out of the way: Yes, I am a mission runner and NPC ratter. I enjoy both. Sue me. Hate me. Trash talk me. Flame me. I really couldn't care less.
One question: Are the NPCs going to get hit as hard by the speed (and module/implant) nerf-bat as we players are? Or are they going to be unaffected by this change as they are unaffected by MOST of CCP's sweeping, poorly planned, even more poorly implemented changes?
If they are affected by these changes, then this issue is really a NON-issue for me as it only has drastic implications to PvP, which I admittedly do not do often.
If the NPCs are NOT going to be affected by these changes (as is standard) then this is a massive blow to (low SP players getting into) PvE AS WELL as all players in PvP.
Any comments from Nozh (or other devs) on this would be greatly appreciated.
NPCs will be unchanged as always.
NPC's mechanics arent just emulated player ships, they have their own set of rules. NPC ships dont even have the concept of capacitor, and you used to be able to nos them for energy indefinitely.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:02:00 -
[3410]
Originally by: Lilth Hellspire Edited by: Lilth Hellspire on 31/07/2008 07:12:09 First lets get this out of the way: Yes, I am a mission runner and NPC ratter. I enjoy both. Sue me. Hate me. Trash talk me. Flame me. I really couldn't care less.
One question: Are the NPCs going to get hit as hard by the speed (and module/implant) nerf-bat as we players are? Or are they going to be unaffected by this change as they are unaffected by MOST of CCP's sweeping, poorly planned, even more poorly implemented changes?
If they are affected by these changes, then this issue is really a NON-issue for me as it only has drastic implications to PvP, which I admittedly do not do often.
If the NPCs are NOT going to be affected by these changes (as is standard) then this is a massive blow to (low SP players getting into) PvE AS WELL as all players in PvP.
Any comments from Nozh (or other devs) on this would be greatly appreciated.
NPCs will be unchanged as always.
NPC's mechanics arent just emulated player ships, they have their own set of rules. NPC ships dont even have the concept of capacitor, and you used to be able to nos them for energy indefinitely.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
|
Vince Draken
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:36:00 -
[3411]
Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
|
Vince Draken
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:36:00 -
[3412]
Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
|
Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:33:00 -
[3413]
Originally by: Vince Draken Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
What you have to understand about that statement in yellow is this: CCP listens to player input that they like and/or agree with or supports their agenda. OR, they use player input as an excuse/explination for something that they were going to do anyway. Don't be fooled by all of this "hearts and puppies" talk about "it's your sandbox" and the recent formation of the CSM as "power to the players". At the end of the day, the cold hard reality is that its CCP's way or the highway; and they could really give less of a damn which way you choose.
Some people would argue that that is the way things SHOULD be. I'm not going to touch that subject either way here. Just replying to your question, but me-thinks you already knew the answer.
Fly safe.... oh, and slower now.
*
* |
Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:33:00 -
[3414]
Edited by: Sylthi on 31/07/2008 09:46:49
Originally by: Vince Draken Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
What you have to understand about that statement in yellow is this: CCP listens to player input that they like and/or agree with or supports their agenda. OR, they use player input as an excuse/explination for something that they were going to do anyway. Don't be fooled by all of this "hearts and puppies" talk about "it's your sandbox" and the recent formation of the CSM as "power to the players". At the end of the day, the cold hard reality is that its CCP's way or the highway; and they could really give less of a damn which way you choose.
All the forums are really good for is to vent your frustration with your fellow players, and to trash talk each other while we all await the final judgment to be passed down from the dark gods at CCP. They will NEVER go back on something they (the devs) want to do based on popular opinion. Just look at the voting poll in the "Meeting Hall" forum. The vote currently stands (at the time of this typing) at MORE than 2 to 1 AGAINST having a speed nerf (as proposed by Nozh). But, does anyone SERIOUSLY think that Nozh is just going to turn around and go "My bad. We'll just not nerf speed this time around." Hell, if the vote was 100 to 1 against, we would ALL still be flying slower ships in a moth or so.
Some people would argue that that is the way things SHOULD be. I'm not going to touch that subject either way here. Just replying to your question, but me-thinks you already knew the answer.
Fly safe.... oh, and slower now.
*
* |
Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:38:00 -
[3415]
Edited by: Prez21 on 31/07/2008 09:38:41
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Your lying or posting with an alt because you have only 22 kills and 40 losses so you dont know how to kill people just fine and you have no right trying to tell people anything about how to pvp. Looking at one of your losses, a vagabond to a omen and vexor i think you are the one that needs to learn how to fly your ships. Your just another clueless idiot who has no expierence of the game mechanic we are talking about but because you lack the skill to fly nano ships properly you come to the forums tell people to learn how to pvp, when you dont know how to yourself.
|
Prez21
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:38:00 -
[3416]
Edited by: Prez21 on 31/07/2008 09:38:41
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune
Originally by: Atlanticpyro Edited by: Atlanticpyro on 31/07/2008 03:22:02 Thanks for continuing the silent holocaust of the minmitar. I really just invested years of training Minmatar to become the fastest race to become obsolete ever.
EDIT: If they have a leg to stand on, cut it off.
I too have years of Minmater training and never nanoed a single ship except a Vagabond. I have killed people just fine without extreme speed setups with these ships.
Maybe learn how to fly your ships instead of using a broken game mechanic to get by?
Your lying or posting with an alt because you have only 22 kills and 40 losses so you dont know how to kill people just fine and you have no right trying to tell people anything about how to pvp. Looking at one of your losses, a vagabond to a omen and vexor i think you are the one that needs to learn how to fly your ships. Your just another clueless idiot who has no expierence of the game mechanic we are talking about but because you lack the skill to fly nano ships properly you come to the forums tell people to learn how to pvp, when you dont know how to yourself.
|
Robocop
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:49:00 -
[3417]
|
Alasashia
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:49:00 -
[3418]
Looking at the dev blog...
The speed goals are reasonable. Ludicrous speeds are currently attainable, and the patch currently on sing. certainly ends that.
However, the details of this patch seems to overtip the balance in my view.
MWD's do not give the ship a load of mini-warps, they are simply a super-boost of speed, and cost more in cpu, cap etc. MWD is just a name, and hence having them deactivate when a scrambler operates seems unreasonable. This makes a scrambler essentially a webber. The speed progression between MWD's of different meta levels is essential to it. Same as improving damage of turrets is essential to those. Please give MWD's differing speed boosts.
I agreee on the issue of webs.. They are extremely overpowered at the moment. Reducing their effect is necessary, especially when considering the rest of the combined speed reduction effects.
Polycarbons are definitely overpowered currently. Reducing their effect in line with other rig bonuses is sensible.
However if you are looking for some sort of logic and realistic and science based game, then clearly speed, agility and weight / mass are closely linked. If you change one you inherently have some impact on the others. However giving a stacking penalty for using combinations of mods which affect these attributes seems over the top. The simplistic logic takes ages to explain but essentially if I lost a bit of weight I'd expect to get more speed. Further losses wouldn't increase speed so much (like stacking nanofibers) However, if I lose some weight and then train my running ability and leg strength I'd expect to gain more speed from both losing weight and then more from training (like a nano and adding in an overdrive). Hence giving penalites for "stacking" modules which affect different aspects of a ship logically is unfair.
Afterburners clearly need a boost.. good to see it coming.
I haven't looked in detail at the formulae of game mechanics.. Other thoughts I had...
Do modules like turrets have any impact on mass and acceleration and speed? Abig heavy weapon clearly should make something go slower and make it less agile.
What about some of the specific ships and speed issues? For example the Vagabond? If that HAC can be allowed to go so fast then surely it wouldn't have the ability to carry such effective weaponry or have such effective armour? That's not just to poke the Vagabond.. What about the other ships too?
In summary, speed has become a fundamental issue in Eve. I think wholesale nerfing is harsh. Some ships should be able to get to almost "ludicrous" speed.. We have vehicles on earth now that reach escape velocity (11000 m/s) and that's with air resistance! SO in the far future in space some of them should certainly get pretty damn fast. However, there are costs.. Ships doing silly speeds shouldn't be effective in combat as well. That's unreasonable.. Maybe look at higher costs for using MWD's (CPU, cap) unless in certain ships specifically designed for speed? Maybe we are at the point of introducing more ships within certain classes, which have more specialised roles?
Probably all these things have at least been considered, but to me the changes currently on sing. are over the top in some ways. Please tone them down and give more testing.
Cheers, Alas
|
Robocop
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:49:00 -
[3419]
|
Alasashia
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:49:00 -
[3420]
Looking at the dev blog...
The speed goals are reasonable. Ludicrous speeds are currently attainable, and the patch currently on sing. certainly ends that.
However, the details of this patch seems to overtip the balance in my view.
MWD's do not give the ship a load of mini-warps, they are simply a super-boost of speed, and cost more in cpu, cap etc. MWD is just a name, and hence having them deactivate when a scrambler operates seems unreasonable. This makes a scrambler essentially a webber. The speed progression between MWD's of different meta levels is essential to it. Same as improving damage of turrets is essential to those. Please give MWD's differing speed boosts.
I agreee on the issue of webs.. They are extremely overpowered at the moment. Reducing their effect is necessary, especially when considering the rest of the combined speed reduction effects.
Polycarbons are definitely overpowered currently. Reducing their effect in line with other rig bonuses is sensible.
However if you are looking for some sort of logic and realistic and science based game, then clearly speed, agility and weight / mass are closely linked. If you change one you inherently have some impact on the others. However giving a stacking penalty for using combinations of mods which affect these attributes seems over the top. The simplistic logic takes ages to explain but essentially if I lost a bit of weight I'd expect to get more speed. Further losses wouldn't increase speed so much (like stacking nanofibers) However, if I lose some weight and then train my running ability and leg strength I'd expect to gain more speed from both losing weight and then more from training (like a nano and adding in an overdrive). Hence giving penalites for "stacking" modules which affect different aspects of a ship logically is unfair.
Afterburners clearly need a boost.. good to see it coming.
I haven't looked in detail at the formulae of game mechanics.. Other thoughts I had...
Do modules like turrets have any impact on mass and acceleration and speed? Abig heavy weapon clearly should make something go slower and make it less agile.
What about some of the specific ships and speed issues? For example the Vagabond? If that HAC can be allowed to go so fast then surely it wouldn't have the ability to carry such effective weaponry or have such effective armour? That's not just to poke the Vagabond.. What about the other ships too?
In summary, speed has become a fundamental issue in Eve. I think wholesale nerfing is harsh. Some ships should be able to get to almost "ludicrous" speed.. We have vehicles on earth now that reach escape velocity (11000 m/s) and that's with air resistance! SO in the far future in space some of them should certainly get pretty damn fast. However, there are costs.. Ships doing silly speeds shouldn't be effective in combat as well. That's unreasonable.. Maybe look at higher costs for using MWD's (CPU, cap) unless in certain ships specifically designed for speed? Maybe we are at the point of introducing more ships within certain classes, which have more specialised roles?
Probably all these things have at least been considered, but to me the changes currently on sing. are over the top in some ways. Please tone them down and give more testing.
Cheers, Alas
|
|
Valasaria
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:20:00 -
[3421]
Originally by: Vince Draken Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
I don't know how much CCP is going to loose.... but I doubt the semi-stealth GTC price increase is going to cover it! Yes, that was a stab directly aimed at CCP's obvious lack of concern for customer satisfaction.
|
Valasaria
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:20:00 -
[3422]
Originally by: Vince Draken Edited by: Vince Draken on 31/07/2008 08:40:51
Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
I don't know how much CCP is going to loose.... but I doubt the semi-stealth GTC price increase is going to cover it! Yes, that was a stab directly aimed at CCP's obvious lack of concern for customer satisfaction.
|
Colonel Scott
Herrscher der Zeit
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:24:00 -
[3423]
Originally by: Alasashia Looking at the dev blog...
The speed goals are reasonable. Ludicrous speeds are currently attainable, and the patch currently on sing. certainly ends that.
However, the details of this patch seems to overtip the balance in my view.
MWD's do not give the ship a load of mini-warps, they are simply a super-boost of speed, and cost more in cpu, cap etc. MWD is just a name, and hence having them deactivate when a scrambler operates seems unreasonable. This makes a scrambler essentially a webber. The speed progression between MWD's of different meta levels is essential to it. Same as improving damage of turrets is essential to those. Please give MWD's differing speed boosts.
I agreee on the issue of webs.. They are extremely overpowered at the moment. Reducing their effect is necessary, especially when considering the rest of the combined speed reduction effects.
Polycarbons are definitely overpowered currently. Reducing their effect in line with other rig bonuses is sensible.
However if you are looking for some sort of logic and realistic and science based game, then clearly speed, agility and weight / mass are closely linked. If you change one you inherently have some impact on the others. However giving a stacking penalty for using combinations of mods which affect these attributes seems over the top. The simplistic logic takes ages to explain but essentially if I lost a bit of weight I'd expect to get more speed. Further losses wouldn't increase speed so much (like stacking nanofibers) However, if I lose some weight and then train my running ability and leg strength I'd expect to gain more speed from both losing weight and then more from training (like a nano and adding in an overdrive). Hence giving penalites for "stacking" modules which affect different aspects of a ship logically is unfair.
Afterburners clearly need a boost.. good to see it coming.
I haven't looked in detail at the formulae of game mechanics.. Other thoughts I had...
Do modules like turrets have any impact on mass and acceleration and speed? Abig heavy weapon clearly should make something go slower and make it less agile.
What about some of the specific ships and speed issues? For example the Vagabond? If that HAC can be allowed to go so fast then surely it wouldn't have the ability to carry such effective weaponry or have such effective armour? That's not just to poke the Vagabond.. What about the other ships too?
In summary, speed has become a fundamental issue in Eve. I think wholesale nerfing is harsh. Some ships should be able to get to almost "ludicrous" speed.. We have vehicles on earth now that reach escape velocity (11000 m/s) and that's with air resistance! SO in the far future in space some of them should certainly get pretty damn fast. However, there are costs.. Ships doing silly speeds shouldn't be effective in combat as well. That's unreasonable.. Maybe look at higher costs for using MWD's (CPU, cap) unless in certain ships specifically designed for speed? Maybe we are at the point of introducing more ships within certain classes, which have more specialised roles?
Probably all these things have at least been considered, but to me the changes currently on sing. are over the top in some ways. Please tone them down and give more testing.
Cheers, Alas
nice and very logic argumentation . THX Alas. This is also my opinion.
|
Colonel Scott
Herrscher der Zeit
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:24:00 -
[3424]
Originally by: Alasashia Looking at the dev blog...
The speed goals are reasonable. Ludicrous speeds are currently attainable, and the patch currently on sing. certainly ends that.
However, the details of this patch seems to overtip the balance in my view.
MWD's do not give the ship a load of mini-warps, they are simply a super-boost of speed, and cost more in cpu, cap etc. MWD is just a name, and hence having them deactivate when a scrambler operates seems unreasonable. This makes a scrambler essentially a webber. The speed progression between MWD's of different meta levels is essential to it. Same as improving damage of turrets is essential to those. Please give MWD's differing speed boosts.
I agreee on the issue of webs.. They are extremely overpowered at the moment. Reducing their effect is necessary, especially when considering the rest of the combined speed reduction effects.
Polycarbons are definitely overpowered currently. Reducing their effect in line with other rig bonuses is sensible.
However if you are looking for some sort of logic and realistic and science based game, then clearly speed, agility and weight / mass are closely linked. If you change one you inherently have some impact on the others. However giving a stacking penalty for using combinations of mods which affect these attributes seems over the top. The simplistic logic takes ages to explain but essentially if I lost a bit of weight I'd expect to get more speed. Further losses wouldn't increase speed so much (like stacking nanofibers) However, if I lose some weight and then train my running ability and leg strength I'd expect to gain more speed from both losing weight and then more from training (like a nano and adding in an overdrive). Hence giving penalites for "stacking" modules which affect different aspects of a ship logically is unfair.
Afterburners clearly need a boost.. good to see it coming.
I haven't looked in detail at the formulae of game mechanics.. Other thoughts I had...
Do modules like turrets have any impact on mass and acceleration and speed? Abig heavy weapon clearly should make something go slower and make it less agile.
What about some of the specific ships and speed issues? For example the Vagabond? If that HAC can be allowed to go so fast then surely it wouldn't have the ability to carry such effective weaponry or have such effective armour? That's not just to poke the Vagabond.. What about the other ships too?
In summary, speed has become a fundamental issue in Eve. I think wholesale nerfing is harsh. Some ships should be able to get to almost "ludicrous" speed.. We have vehicles on earth now that reach escape velocity (11000 m/s) and that's with air resistance! SO in the far future in space some of them should certainly get pretty damn fast. However, there are costs.. Ships doing silly speeds shouldn't be effective in combat as well. That's unreasonable.. Maybe look at higher costs for using MWD's (CPU, cap) unless in certain ships specifically designed for speed? Maybe we are at the point of introducing more ships within certain classes, which have more specialised roles?
Probably all these things have at least been considered, but to me the changes currently on sing. are over the top in some ways. Please tone them down and give more testing.
Cheers, Alas
nice and very logic argumentation . THX Alas. This is also my opinion.
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Delichon
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:41:00 -
[3425]
Just my oppinion for the devs.
Watch SiSi, guys, listen to constructive ideas and ignore the cry babies. I like Eve for what it is - a new game every 6 months. I am sure the silent majority (people who ignore the forums) would agree with me.
Lost a nano-cerb yesterday to celebrate the upcoming change Training Recons to 5, anticipating the Falcon nerf (whenever it would come)
P.S. To all the cry babies - your tears, they are ambrosia. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:41:00 -
[3426]
Just my oppinion for the devs.
Watch SiSi, guys, listen to constructive ideas and ignore the cry babies. I like Eve for what it is - a new game every 6 months. I am sure the silent majority (people who ignore the forums) would agree with me.
Lost a nano-cerb yesterday to celebrate the upcoming change Training Recons to 5, anticipating the Falcon nerf (whenever it would come)
P.S. To all the cry babies - your tears, they are ambrosia. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 11:04:00 -
[3427]
Zulupark should have posted the Devblog. The comments would have been so much more delightful. -------- Ideas for: Mining Ships |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 11:04:00 -
[3428]
Zulupark should have posted the Devblog. The comments would have been so much more delightful.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Rumpelstilski
Caldari The Blackguard Wolves Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 11:40:00 -
[3429]
It's a bit too drastic, if BS-class weaponry can 1-volley interceptors in full burn with 100% certainty (precision cruise missiles anyone?), then they are nothing more than t2 shuttles for losec and empire. I hoped CCP will nerf the way speed bonuses don't get stacking penalized and give some loving to frigate hulls and some nerfing to cruiser and bs hulls to get that max speed slope in order, but instead the nerf is on everything across the scale. CCP is kinda throwing most of things we know about 0.0 pvp out of the window and trying to think something from scratch and I don't like it.
If, for example, snakes got stacking penalties with ods and/or nanofibers, there'd be no point in fitting polis and nanos on lows and rigs and you could have a 5-6km/s vaga with top gimmicks that still has a conventional tank too. Pretty awesome but not unbeatable unless webbed and well within range of receiving hurt from missiles and drones.
Interceptors should keep the unpimped speed awesomeness they have now (5-8km/s) imo but nerf the way bonuses didn't get stacking penalized that allowed 40km/s monstrosities.
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Rumpelstilski
Caldari Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:40:00 -
[3430]
Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 31/07/2008 11:53:43 My sisi impressions:
It's a bit too drastic, if BS-class weaponry can 1-volley interceptors in full burn with 100% certainty (precision cruise missiles anyone?), then they are nothing more than t2 shuttles for losec and empire. I hoped CCP will nerf the way speed bonuses don't get stacking penalized and give some loving to frigate hulls and some nerfing to cruiser and bs hulls to get that max speed slope in order, but instead the nerf is on everything across the scale. CCP is kinda throwing most of things we know about 0.0 pvp out of the window and trying to think something from scratch and I don't like it.
If, for example, snakes got stacking penalties with ods and/or nanofibers, there'd be no point in fitting polis and nanos on lows and rigs and you could have a 5-6km/s vaga with top gimmicks that still has a conventional tank too. Pretty awesome but not unbeatable unless webbed and well within range of receiving hurt from missiles and drones.
Interceptors should keep the unpimped speed awesomeness they have now (5-8km/s) imo but nerf the way bonuses didn't get stacking penalized that allowed 40km/s monstrosities.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:14:00 -
[3431]
Thinking over some of the proposals, they make a shitload of sense. THe microwarpdrive was always intended to be a short burst thing for closing the gap in between you and your target. It wasn't really intended to be a super-afterburner that you ran all the time but that's basically what it became. I find that the only times I really use a microwarpdrive are when closing in on a target and when reapproaching a gate after jump-in. In both cases, a single pulse is all that's required and a reactivation delay would not harm the microwarpdrive in either of those vital primary roles. It'd put the microwarpdrive back in its place for PvP. Ships like interceptors could get bonuses to the mwd cooldown time or burn duration.
The mass issue is well handled. It was the addition of mass-reducing modules like the current nanofibres and polycarb rigs that sparked off the nano craze. It allowed ships to fly as if they were a smaller size class, with HACs outrunning frigates and the vagabond outrunning everything but another vagabond. After the changes, we're probably going to see a migration back to traditional warfare styles. Ship classes will move at more predictable speeds and it'll be back to good old fashioned strategy with one fleet smashing into another. We've had a lot of good honest fleet smashing in the Gallente Militia and it's been awesome. It's PvP at its best and the sooner the option to "nano up" and evade traditional combat strategies is removed the better.
The short range scram disabling the enemy mwd is a controvertial topic but I have to say that change makes a lot of sense. It won't kill blaster ships at all, in fact it'll make them more effective at tackling. After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
One thing I do miss is something that I think was in the game around 2004. With an afterburner or mwd active, your ship would always accelerate to maximum no matter what. You would be at a standstill and hit the mwd and suddenly you'd be accelerating rather than sitting still wasting capacitor. You couldn't lower your speed without deactivating the afterburner. It made the module feel like it was an actual afterburner and not just a maximum-speed-increase-o-tron. Was that actually the case in 2004 or am I misremembering it?
I'll probably write up an article about it this weekend when I've had time to analyse it a bit more objectively but I think I'm starting to see where all these changes are coming from.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 12:14:00 -
[3432]
Thinking over some of the proposals, they make a shitload of sense. THe microwarpdrive was always intended to be a short burst thing for closing the gap in between you and your target. It wasn't really intended to be a super-afterburner that you ran all the time but that's basically what it became. I find that the only times I really use a microwarpdrive are when closing in on a target and when reapproaching a gate after jump-in. In both cases, a single pulse is all that's required and a reactivation delay would not harm the microwarpdrive in either of those vital primary roles. It'd put the microwarpdrive back in its place for PvP. Ships like interceptors could get bonuses to the mwd cooldown time or burn duration.
The mass issue is well handled. It was the addition of mass-reducing modules like the current nanofibres and polycarb rigs that sparked off the nano craze. It allowed ships to fly as if they were a smaller size class, with HACs outrunning frigates and the vagabond outrunning everything but another vagabond. After the changes, we're probably going to see a migration back to traditional warfare styles. Ship classes will move at more predictable speeds and it'll be back to good old fashioned strategy with one fleet smashing into another. We've had a lot of good honest fleet smashing in the Gallente Militia and it's been awesome. It's PvP at its best and the sooner the option to "nano up" and evade traditional combat strategies is removed the better.
The short range scram disabling the enemy mwd is a controvertial topic but I have to say that change makes a lot of sense. It won't kill blaster ships at all, in fact it'll make them more effective at tackling. After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
One thing I do miss is something that I think was in the game around 2004. With an afterburner or mwd active, your ship would always accelerate to maximum no matter what. You would be at a standstill and hit the mwd and suddenly you'd be accelerating rather than sitting still wasting capacitor. You couldn't lower your speed without deactivating the afterburner. It made the module feel like it was an actual afterburner and not just a maximum-speed-increase-o-tron. Was that actually the case in 2004 or am I misremembering it?
I'll probably write up an article about it this weekend when I've had time to analyse it a bit more objectively but I think I'm starting to see where all these changes are coming from.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:24:00 -
[3433]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:24:00 -
[3434]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
That guy's the biggest dipshit ever, don't bother.
Also, I give it two weeks or less until he gets on his next nerf warpath.
I think you're just feeling the blunt of my brilliance and still recovering from head trauma. The naive and selfish players have to realize, Eve is not just a game to exploit, grief, and gank... its a game for multiple players and choose multiple paths.
The nerf turns you from being invincible to having risks. Speed is still effective and can be used in the way it was intended for with interceptors. Adapt, and learn. Change in inevitable. Dealing with it is YOUR problem, not mine.
Me = a big loser
Fixed that for you... btw
Eve is a "Cold harsh place" but its really getting turned into hello kitty online with internet spaceships so i think most of us will just leave.
You can talk about being invicible but you just suck at PVP, c/d? poast with a main or stfu. You have garbage skills and if people learned to adapt to the nano age instead of whine in the mission running ravens, this wouldn't happen.
There are two reasons why we are here
1. People either can't field nanohacs, in which their opinion doesn't matter they need to wait till they have the sp and isk
2. People don't want to for some RP reasons, they don't like to fly fast or whatever. They don't like the type of combat and don't partake --------------------
Both reasons are BULLSH!T and should have never caused the dev's to consider not just changing speed but PVP, especially in 0.0. Thats right, this isn't solely about speed but fundementally changing the game making it easier for larger groups of people to dominate. its utter garabage just like you
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:24:00 -
[3435]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:24:00 -
[3436]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Excellent work CCP. Speed is still a viable option. Change is good, and this is great for Eve.
You haven't been to the test server, have you?
That guy's the biggest dipshit ever, don't bother.
Also, I give it two weeks or less until he gets on his next nerf warpath.
I think you're just feeling the blunt of my brilliance and still recovering from head trauma. The naive and selfish players have to realize, Eve is not just a game to exploit, grief, and gank... its a game for multiple players and choose multiple paths.
The nerf turns you from being invincible to having risks. Speed is still effective and can be used in the way it was intended for with interceptors. Adapt, and learn. Change in inevitable. Dealing with it is YOUR problem, not mine.
Me = a big loser
Fixed that for you... btw
Eve is a "Cold harsh place" but its really getting turned into hello kitty online with internet spaceships so i think most of us will just leave.
You can talk about being invicible but you just suck at PVP, c/d? poast with a main or stfu. You have garbage skills and if people learned to adapt to the nano age instead of whine in the mission running ravens, this wouldn't happen.
There are two reasons why we are here
1. People either can't field nanohacs, in which their opinion doesn't matter they need to wait till they have the sp and isk
2. People don't want to for some RP reasons, they don't like to fly fast or whatever. They don't like the type of combat and don't partake --------------------
Both reasons are BULLSH!T and should have never caused the dev's to consider not just changing speed but PVP, especially in 0.0. Thats right, this isn't solely about speed but fundementally changing the game making it easier for larger groups of people to dominate. its utter garabage just like you
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Lavraen
Minmatar Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:25:00 -
[3437]
Sony did a Combat Upgrade for Star wars galaxies. CCP did the nano nerf.
Six months... Lavraen |
Lavraen
Minmatar Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:25:00 -
[3438]
Sony did a Combat Upgrade for Star wars galaxies. CCP did the nano nerf.
Six months...
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Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:32:00 -
[3439]
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 13:33:54
Originally by: Vince Draken Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
They always listen..... They may not do as every player wants, but they DO listen!
This really is the only way to run a game like this. Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
All in all, these changes seems to restore the game balance for speed. Speed'll no longer be the answer to everything, but will have its own niche where it excels, just like all other strategies/tactics. It'll of.c. not be the same huge niche as its had until now, but it'll still be a useful one.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:32:00 -
[3440]
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 13:33:54
Originally by: Vince Draken Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
They always listen..... They may not do as every player wants, but they DO listen!
This really is the only way to run a game like this. Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
All in all, these changes seems to restore the game balance for speed. Speed'll no longer be the answer to everything, but will have its own niche where it excels, just like all other strategies/tactics. It'll of.c. not be the same huge niche as its had until now, but it'll still be a useful one.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:36:00 -
[3441]
So let me get this straight, CCP assembled the CSM, a group of player elected and admittedly seasoned players to get in touch with their playerbase and get a feel of what problems could be addressed to make gameplay in EVE even better. Let's see what they came up with
Quote: High Priority: 0004 Black Ops Improvements X Jump Bridges and Cynojammers 0029 Eve-Mail Issues 0019 Contract Improvements 0018 0.0 Sovereignty Issues 0013 Skill Page Tweaks 0007 Double Click function on avatars
Medium-High Priority 0026 Suicide Ganking 0012 Minimum Size of HUD elements 0009 Alliances and Factional Warfare 0017 Empire War Decs 0030 PVP Wreck Ownership 0003 Problems with Aggression Timer 0001 Skill Queue
Medium Priority 0016 Switching all Ammo at the same time 0015 Pilot Avatar Listing 0002 Bombs need a Boost 0039 Roleplay Storylines 0028 Forum Issues and Fixing 0021 Assembly Array Issues 0022 Shares and Dividends Issues 0024 Experimental Industry Issues 0027 Drone Implants 0036 Small Freighter X Corp -> Alliance sync
Low Priority 0006 Pillageable Outposts X More Corp Standing Slots 0011 Electronic Warfare Icons 0033 Color Deficiency 0014 Personal Assets and HUD 0038 Buff Large Autocannons
Rejected/Unfeasable/Completed 0025 Game Time Codes 0020 Public POS Arrays 0023 Sell order availability 0008 Cargo Hold Size
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:36:00 -
[3442]
Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:43:07 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:39:03
Quote: Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
So let me get this straight, CCP assembled the CSM, a group of player elected and admittedly seasoned players to get in touch with their playerbase and get a feel of what problems could be addressed to make gameplay in EVE even better. Let's see what they came up with
Quote: High Priority: 0004 Black Ops Improvements X Jump Bridges and Cynojammers 0029 Eve-Mail Issues 0019 Contract Improvements 0018 0.0 Sovereignty Issues 0013 Skill Page Tweaks 0007 Double Click function on avatars
Medium-High Priority 0026 Suicide Ganking 0012 Minimum Size of HUD elements 0009 Alliances and Factional Warfare 0017 Empire War Decs 0030 PVP Wreck Ownership 0003 Problems with Aggression Timer 0001 Skill Queue
Medium Priority 0016 Switching all Ammo at the same time 0015 Pilot Avatar Listing 0002 Bombs need a Boost 0039 Roleplay Storylines 0028 Forum Issues and Fixing 0021 Assembly Array Issues 0022 Shares and Dividends Issues 0024 Experimental Industry Issues 0027 Drone Implants 0036 Small Freighter X Corp -> Alliance sync
Low Priority 0006 Pillageable Outposts X More Corp Standing Slots 0011 Electronic Warfare Icons 0033 Color Deficiency 0014 Personal Assets and HUD 0038 Buff Large Autocannons
Rejected/Unfeasable/Completed 0025 Game Time Codes 0020 Public POS Arrays 0023 Sell order availability 0008 Cargo Hold Size
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
Edit. Oh, I forgot, we have the Sabre.... which, oh wonder!, it's nanoed for a reason. ---------------------------- Implement Racial Fleet Setups
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:39:00 -
[3443]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 13:33:54
Originally by: Vince Draken Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
They always listen..... They may not do as every player wants, but they DO listen!
This really is the only way to run a game like this. Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
All in all, these changes seems to restore the game balance for speed. Speed'll no longer be the answer to everything, but will have its own niche where it excels, just like all other strategies/tactics. It'll of.c. not be the same huge niche as its had until now, but it'll still be a useful one.
Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:39:00 -
[3444]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 13:33:54
Originally by: Vince Draken Wonder how much Money CCP is going to lose if they put this crap live on TQ
Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.
Does this mean CCP are actually going to listen to its player base for once ?
They always listen..... They may not do as every player wants, but they DO listen!
This really is the only way to run a game like this. Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
All in all, these changes seems to restore the game balance for speed. Speed'll no longer be the answer to everything, but will have its own niche where it excels, just like all other strategies/tactics. It'll of.c. not be the same huge niche as its had until now, but it'll still be a useful one.
Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:56:00 -
[3445]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:56:00 -
[3446]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:57:00 -
[3447]
Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 14:00:10 Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 13:58:50
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
How realistic is it to draw conclusions about balance on the basis of a single 1v1 encounter in a game where there is 40k+ people on a server who could potentially jump in to fight?
To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:57:00 -
[3448]
Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 14:00:10 Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 13:58:50
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
How realistic is it to draw conclusions about balance on the basis of a single 1v1 encounter in a game where there is 40k+ people on a server who could potentially jump in to fight?
To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:21:00 -
[3449]
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:21:00 -
[3450]
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Krij
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:44:00 -
[3451]
I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
This is one nerf that WILL cost CCP subscriptions.
My stuff?
You can have it.
It's all minnie nano, so it's worthless.
Maybe CCP could consider an SP and ship trade for minnie characters?
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Krij
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:44:00 -
[3452]
I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
This is one nerf that WILL cost CCP subscriptions.
My stuff?
You can have it.
It's all minnie nano, so it's worthless.
Maybe CCP could consider an SP and ship trade for minnie characters?
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:00:00 -
[3453]
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:00:00 -
[3454]
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:05:00 -
[3455]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:05:00 -
[3456]
Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:11:53 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:07:56
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly* with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC (since my weapon system needs no modules to dictate range, facilitate tracking etc) and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
*EDIT: Make that 3-4 times more costly. Sorry, was thinking implants for the Vaga as well. ---------------------------- Implement Racial Fleet Setups
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:07:00 -
[3457]
Originally by: Nyphur Thinking over some of the proposals, they make a shitload of sense. THe microwarpdrive was always intended to be a short burst thing for closing the gap in between you and your target. It wasn't really intended to be a super-afterburner that you ran all the time but that's basically what it became. I find that the only times I really use a microwarpdrive are when closing in on a target and when reapproaching a gate after jump-in. In both cases, a single pulse is all that's required and a reactivation delay would not harm the microwarpdrive in either of those vital primary roles. It'd put the microwarpdrive back in its place for PvP. Ships like interceptors could get bonuses to the mwd cooldown time or burn duration.
The mass issue is well handled. It was the addition of mass-reducing modules like the current nanofibres and polycarb rigs that sparked off the nano craze. It allowed ships to fly as if they were a smaller size class, with HACs outrunning frigates and the vagabond outrunning everything but another vagabond. After the changes, we're probably going to see a migration back to traditional warfare styles. Ship classes will move at more predictable speeds and it'll be back to good old fashioned strategy with one fleet smashing into another. We've had a lot of good honest fleet smashing in the Gallente Militia and it's been awesome. It's PvP at its best and the sooner the option to "nano up" and evade traditional combat strategies is removed the better.
The short range scram disabling the enemy mwd is a controvertial topic but I have to say that change makes a lot of sense. It won't kill blaster ships at all, in fact it'll make them more effective at tackling. After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
One thing I do miss is something that I think was in the game around 2004. With an afterburner or mwd active, your ship would always accelerate to maximum no matter what. You would be at a standstill and hit the mwd and suddenly you'd be accelerating rather than sitting still wasting capacitor. You couldn't lower your speed without deactivating the afterburner. It made the module feel like it was an actual afterburner and not just a maximum-speed-increase-o-tron. Was that actually the case in 2004 or am I misremembering it?
I'll probably write up an article about it this weekend when I've had time to analyse it a bit more objectively but I think I'm starting to see where all these changes are coming from.
nice post!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:07:00 -
[3458]
Originally by: Nyphur Thinking over some of the proposals, they make a shitload of sense. THe microwarpdrive was always intended to be a short burst thing for closing the gap in between you and your target. It wasn't really intended to be a super-afterburner that you ran all the time but that's basically what it became. I find that the only times I really use a microwarpdrive are when closing in on a target and when reapproaching a gate after jump-in. In both cases, a single pulse is all that's required and a reactivation delay would not harm the microwarpdrive in either of those vital primary roles. It'd put the microwarpdrive back in its place for PvP. Ships like interceptors could get bonuses to the mwd cooldown time or burn duration.
The mass issue is well handled. It was the addition of mass-reducing modules like the current nanofibres and polycarb rigs that sparked off the nano craze. It allowed ships to fly as if they were a smaller size class, with HACs outrunning frigates and the vagabond outrunning everything but another vagabond. After the changes, we're probably going to see a migration back to traditional warfare styles. Ship classes will move at more predictable speeds and it'll be back to good old fashioned strategy with one fleet smashing into another. We've had a lot of good honest fleet smashing in the Gallente Militia and it's been awesome. It's PvP at its best and the sooner the option to "nano up" and evade traditional combat strategies is removed the better.
The short range scram disabling the enemy mwd is a controvertial topic but I have to say that change makes a lot of sense. It won't kill blaster ships at all, in fact it'll make them more effective at tackling. After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
One thing I do miss is something that I think was in the game around 2004. With an afterburner or mwd active, your ship would always accelerate to maximum no matter what. You would be at a standstill and hit the mwd and suddenly you'd be accelerating rather than sitting still wasting capacitor. You couldn't lower your speed without deactivating the afterburner. It made the module feel like it was an actual afterburner and not just a maximum-speed-increase-o-tron. Was that actually the case in 2004 or am I misremembering it?
I'll probably write up an article about it this weekend when I've had time to analyse it a bit more objectively but I think I'm starting to see where all these changes are coming from.
nice post!
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:36:00 -
[3459]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
Hmmm what was the answer every time if caladri pilots wrote about they ships are bad for solo pvp because all needed mods like scram, web, mwd are midslot modules? Hmmmmm......Wait i know.....They not soloships. Thats it
Take some friends with use more webs on the target and u can kill it
Adapt or Die
Eventually leave the game, but in this case may i have your stuff?
Oh no, another man who say it bring more man and adapt. LOL Bring more man for blob and lag. U could tell me, the players how adapt to lag ?
No, i just answered on the blasterthorn problem of the guy the same way like 99% of the gallente players answered before on every caldari thread about major ammount of caldari ships cant solopvp because all this mods are midslot mods.
And now if i answer sarcastic the same way u telling me about lag. If Caladri needs take extra tackler, extra webber etc to the fight that dont cause lag????
That's your answer to the blasterthron or ships with bonus to mwd problem? That is no answer at all and it's only a flame. 150 pilot blob still won't fix the problem as still a blasterboat would be dead in every scenario. You obviously have no clue on the game or you're just being a troll. If you have nothing constructive to say then don't speak at all.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:36:00 -
[3460]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
Hmmm what was the answer every time if caladri pilots wrote about they ships are bad for solo pvp because all needed mods like scram, web, mwd are midslot modules? Hmmmmm......Wait i know.....They not soloships. Thats it
Take some friends with use more webs on the target and u can kill it
Adapt or Die
Eventually leave the game, but in this case may i have your stuff?
Oh no, another man who say it bring more man and adapt. LOL Bring more man for blob and lag. U could tell me, the players how adapt to lag ?
No, i just answered on the blasterthorn problem of the guy the same way like 99% of the gallente players answered before on every caldari thread about major ammount of caldari ships cant solopvp because all this mods are midslot mods.
And now if i answer sarcastic the same way u telling me about lag. If Caladri needs take extra tackler, extra webber etc to the fight that dont cause lag????
That's your answer to the blasterthron or ships with bonus to mwd problem? That is no answer at all and it's only a flame. 150 pilot blob still won't fix the problem as still a blasterboat would be dead in every scenario. You obviously have no clue on the game or you're just being a troll. If you have nothing constructive to say then don't speak at all.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:50:00 -
[3461]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
funny.. did you checked sisi? The blasterthrons and blasterperiosn are powing everythign in the FFA arena.. Didn't noticed any more difficulties on their part to pown other BSs.
I'm talking real world situations here not FFA arena or wharever people decide to warp in and smack each other randomly. Explain to me how a mega is going to cross 90km without mwd since in a real world scenario blasterboats are going to get scrambed immediately by tacklers. Hell it won't even be able to close a 40km distance not a 90km one. If tacklers don't tackle you then you're fighting clueless opponents that you'd win anyway. Also the problem is a blasterboat in general. Like the thorax or the deimos. Thorax with faction AM 900m optimal, bonus to mwd, scramb and it's impossible to land a single hit. Fit it with AB and it's useless anyway... No person in their right mind would use a blaster setup right now.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:50:00 -
[3462]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul While I fly a lot of speedy gonzalez ships, I'm quite happy with changes except one.
Blasterboats were very difficult to play. Now they're even worse. Blasters need redesign. A bonus to range and damage. There's no way a blasterthron can even scratch anything now. You need a considerable amount of mwding to get close and stay close. With these changes it's damn impossible. Battleship speed nerf, +12km optimal (with Null)? In 99.99% of the situations you won't even reach you target on fallout. If you use AB and you need to cross distance (like usually) you're also dead before you even get moving. I won't even get in the 6km optimal faction AM scenario. That's has -1000% chances of survival or dps.
Blasters are officially dead.
funny.. did you checked sisi? The blasterthrons and blasterperiosn are powing everythign in the FFA arena.. Didn't noticed any more difficulties on their part to pown other BSs.
I'm talking real world situations here not FFA arena or wharever people decide to warp in and smack each other randomly. Explain to me how a mega is going to cross 90km without mwd since in a real world scenario blasterboats are going to get scrambed immediately by tacklers. Hell it won't even be able to close a 40km distance not a 90km one. If tacklers don't tackle you then you're fighting clueless opponents that you'd win anyway. Also the problem is a blasterboat in general. Like the thorax or the deimos. Thorax with faction AM 900m optimal, bonus to mwd, scramb and it's impossible to land a single hit. Fit it with AB and it's useless anyway... No person in their right mind would use a blaster setup right now.
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:04:00 -
[3463]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
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Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:04:00 -
[3464]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:39:00 -
[3465]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14 Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
LOL, nothing can be compared with the SWG NGE fiasco. That one should be in guiness world records as the worst decision ever in game development. If that game wasn't backed up by Sony and Lucas Arts I'd be over by now. It would cost them more in bad press if it got the axe, much more than what they lost via the NGE.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:39:00 -
[3466]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14 Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
LOL, nothing can be compared with the SWG NGE fiasco. That one should be in guiness world records as the worst decision ever in game development. If that game wasn't backed up by Sony and Lucas Arts I'd be over by now. It would cost them more in bad press if it got the axe, much more than what they lost via the NGE.
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Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:41:00 -
[3467]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:11:53 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:07:56
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly* with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC (since my weapon system needs no modules to dictate range, facilitate tracking etc) and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
*EDIT: Make that 3-4 times more costly. Sorry, was thinking implants for the Vaga as well.
Price is dictated by market demand.... less demand for nano means less cost for the ship. Hac's aren't expensive b/c of thier build cost, polycarbs aren't expensive b/c of their rarity. They're expensive b/c every wants them right now. Reduced demand means lower cost, so quit arguing about cost vs reward.
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Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:41:00 -
[3468]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:11:53 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:07:56
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly* with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC (since my weapon system needs no modules to dictate range, facilitate tracking etc) and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
*EDIT: Make that 3-4 times more costly. Sorry, was thinking implants for the Vaga as well.
Price is dictated by market demand.... less demand for nano means less cost for the ship. Hac's aren't expensive b/c of thier build cost, polycarbs aren't expensive b/c of their rarity. They're expensive b/c every wants them right now. Reduced demand means lower cost, so quit arguing about cost vs reward.
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Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:43:00 -
[3469]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
Did someone forget they increased the cost of GTC, thus making more per player per month from Americans..
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Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:43:00 -
[3470]
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
Did someone forget they increased the cost of GTC, thus making more per player per month from Americans..
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Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:53:00 -
[3471]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
Did someone forget they increased the cost of GTC, thus making more per player per month from Americans..
Don't forget the European subscribers. An American cost for one month 14.99$. An European 14.99 Euro (23.37$). Over one and half of price.
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Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:53:00 -
[3472]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Cutesmile Edited by: Cutesmile on 31/07/2008 16:08:14
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Krij I don't think CCP will realise how unpopular this is until the average server level drops under 30,000. I suppose this is one way to reduce lag in jita...
If there are that many nano-pilots who're willing to quit, isn't that the surest sign that they are way overpowered???
Let's say 1 out of 4 pilots who're hit by this quit (this would be a VERY high quit-rate), this would mean that with current ~38k players online at peak, we loose 8k. That would mean that out of the 38k online players, 4x8k = 32k would be nano'ing their ships!
.....Stop making stupid arguments....
As with all other nerfs, the people actually quitting will be minimal...
I think u are wrong. See it: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/server_status.php
Current population in server in main time now just 31-32k. When the GTC nerf came the population decreased 39k to 31-32k The CCP lost 7-8k subscriber. If the nanonerf will coming, CCP will lost another 7-8k player again, i think. That is over 200.000 bucks. Eve developers turned to wrong way, like Sony with SWG.
Did someone forget they increased the cost of GTC, thus making more per player per month from Americans..
Don't forget the European subscribers. An American cost for one month 14.99$. An European 14.99 Euro (23.37$). Over one and half of price.
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:10:00 -
[3473]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
jesus christ u ****ing noob at least know SOMETHING about vagas before you start talking about them
a vaga CANNOT hit the drake while mwding as the tracking and orbit distance just becomes too great
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 17:10:00 -
[3474]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
jesus christ u ****ing noob at least know SOMETHING about vagas before you start talking about them
a vaga CANNOT hit the drake while mwding as the tracking and orbit distance just becomes too great
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:11:00 -
[3475]
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 31/07/2008 17:12:45 I think you need take a deep breath and rethink ,if i had been wanted to forced to play a class i dont want i would be on wow not at eve (or i might not understand english is not my native)
Originally by: Matrixcvd
There are two reasons why we are here
1. People either can't field nanohacs, in which their opinion doesn't matter they need to wait till they have the sp and isk
2. People don't want to for some RP reasons, they don't like to fly fast or whatever. They don't like the type of combat and don't partake --------------------
Both reasons are BULLSH!T and should have never caused the dev's to consider not just changing speed but PVP, especially in 0.0.
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:11:00 -
[3476]
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 31/07/2008 17:12:45 I think you need take a deep breath and rethink ,if i had been wanted to forced to play a class i dont want i would be on wow not at eve (or i might not understand english is not my native)
Originally by: Matrixcvd
There are two reasons why we are here
1. People either can't field nanohacs, in which their opinion doesn't matter they need to wait till they have the sp and isk
2. People don't want to for some RP reasons, they don't like to fly fast or whatever. They don't like the type of combat and don't partake --------------------
Both reasons are BULLSH!T and should have never caused the dev's to consider not just changing speed but PVP, especially in 0.0.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:20:00 -
[3477]
Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 17:25:21
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The invulnerability lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:20:00 -
[3478]
Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 17:26:02 Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 17:25:21
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:44:00 -
[3479]
I've done a bit more testing on Sisi:
1. Cruise missiles and large pulse lasers now easily destroy nano HACs and Recons. 2. Medium pulse lasers and heavy missiles now make interceptors go squish. 3. Even the slowest light drones now have no problems with nanoships. 4. No clear advantage of HAC over BC. 5. No clear advantage of HAC or BC over BS. 6. Minmatar battleships less agile than Caldari battleships.
All of these are - at least in my mind - glaring errors.
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:44:00 -
[3480]
I've done a bit more testing on Sisi:
1. Cruise missiles and large pulse lasers now easily destroy nano HACs and Recons. 2. Medium pulse lasers and heavy missiles now make interceptors go squish. 3. Even the slowest light drones now have no problems with nanoships. 4. No clear advantage of HAC over BC. 5. No clear advantage of HAC or BC over BS. 6. Minmatar battleships less agile than Caldari battleships.
All of these are - at least in my mind - glaring errors.
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:45:00 -
[3481]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:43:07 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:39:03
Quote: Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
So let me get this straight, CCP assembled the CSM, a group of player elected and admittedly seasoned 0006 Pillageable Outposts X More Corp Standing Slots 0011 Electronic Warfare Icons 0033 Color Deficiency 0014 Personal Assets and HUD 0038 Buff Large Autocannons
Rejected/Unfeasable/Completed 0025 Game Time Codes 0020 Public POS Arrays 0023 Sell order availability 0008 Cargo Hold Size
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
Edit. Oh, I forgot, we have the Sabre.... which, oh wonder!, it's nanoed for a reason.
Amen, give this guy a cookie spot on chap.
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:45:00 -
[3482]
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:43:07 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 13:39:03
Quote: Players are INHERENTLY bad at game balancing since they all favor their own little pet advantages. Same here with all the nano-fans.....
So let me get this straight, CCP assembled the CSM, a group of player elected and admittedly seasoned 0006 Pillageable Outposts X More Corp Standing Slots 0011 Electronic Warfare Icons 0033 Color Deficiency 0014 Personal Assets and HUD 0038 Buff Large Autocannons
Rejected/Unfeasable/Completed 0025 Game Time Codes 0020 Public POS Arrays 0023 Sell order availability 0008 Cargo Hold Size
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
Edit. Oh, I forgot, we have the Sabre.... which, oh wonder!, it's nanoed for a reason.
Amen, give this guy a cookie spot on chap.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 17:46:00 -
[3483]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
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Wizzkidy
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 17:46:00 -
[3484]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:47:00 -
[3485]
Edited by: Abrynn on 31/07/2008 17:50:31 Edited by: Abrynn on 31/07/2008 17:49:08
Originally by: Demus DaVet
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
Edit. Oh, I forgot, we have the Sabre.... which, oh wonder!, it's nanoed for a reason.
this affects your blasterboats too imagine your in you mega MWDing to a target your outta range of rep you they use a 9k scrammbler to turn off your MWD your stuck alone you go boom
Not only that but Mini already have no good ships we have no damage no tank and track like ass we have less armor and less shields than any other race because we are suppost to be the fastest this nerf makes all of our ships useless. The tempest cant get anywere and the HACS/Recons are shit no speed for the vaga and they tank like ass not to mention they are nerfing the webs as well im really ****ed off about this whole thing not only do i have alot of money into my ships but training as well as its the only race i can fly and it will be nerfed to hell and back Mini is the hardest to train and will now be shit should just rename the damn game
Nerf - online missle spam FTW
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:47:00 -
[3486]
Edited by: Abrynn on 31/07/2008 17:50:31 Edited by: Abrynn on 31/07/2008 17:49:08
Originally by: Demus DaVet
As you can see, the CSM did actually recognize nanofits and speed in EVE as a major problem. That's propably why it's not even in the list. What's more, I can find at least 5 items on that list that can be fixed much more easily and speedily than the proposed atrocity that is the current speed nerf. However, the dev team probably reasoned that is better to waste time and programming power on a very controversial and radical change on the gameplay. I mean... why take 5 hours and spend it on making an overview that is playable by the colorblind ? Let's just devote this time into destroying gameplay for one a half factions and throw their ISK and training down the toilet.
Have you ever asked yourselves why every Minmatar pilot you know flys either a vaga or a rapier 9 out of 10 times he undocks ? I mean yes, we are really happy to dish out a whole lot of 200ish dps on a target after about 6.5mil sp in gunnery, with our click finger in suspended animation to get the hell out as soon as anything approaches closer than 15k and we really enjoy being primaried in our flimsy Rapier. Do you honestly not understand that those two ships are the only Minnie ships that are not outgunned and outtanked and generaly outclassed by the respective ships of the other factions - at least when it comes down to what's needed in a gank ? Do you actually realize that minnie pilots take the trouble to train and get into a claymore just to give speed bonuses to the gang and for no other reason ?
Edit. Oh, I forgot, we have the Sabre.... which, oh wonder!, it's nanoed for a reason.
this affects your blasterboats too imagine your in you mega MWDing to a target your outta range of rep you they use a 9k scrammbler to turn off your MWD your stuck alone you go boom
Not only that but Mini already have no good ships we have no damage no tank and track like ass we have less armor and less shields than any other race because we are suppost to be the fastest this nerf makes all of our ships useless. The tempest cant get anywere and the HACS/Recons are shit no speed for the vaga and they tank like ass not to mention they are nerfing the webs as well im really ****ed off about this whole thing not only do i have alot of money into my ships but training as well as its the only race i can fly and it will be nerfed to hell and back Mini is the hardest to train and will now be shit should just rename the damn game
Nerf - online missle spam FTW
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:50:00 -
[3487]
Originally by: Wizzkidy
Originally by: Malachon Draco
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
the game isnt broken at all, and from what i can see there is 2 and a half more votes against the nerf than for it, unlucky m8, your t1 raven is still good at killing rats at least
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 17:50:00 -
[3488]
Originally by: Wizzkidy
Originally by: Malachon Draco
1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
Furthermore, the MWD does make the ship more vulnerable under certain circumstances. If you're a vagabond barreling straight at an enemy sniperfleet from 200km away, the first salvo will wipe you out, aided by the increased sig radius. Only a vagabond keeping up its transversal gets any benefit in terms of not getting hit by turrets. It requires active thought and preparation by the pilot and can be countered, for example by splitting the snipers up into 2 groups 50km away from each other, which would make it much harder for a vaga to keep up its transversal.
But no, the only ones who should be expected to actually consider moving and tactics and specific roles for specific ships and properly preparing the composition of a fleet are nano pilots, and because they do it they MUST BE NERFED!
Because all the ****** idiots who live in the rest of Eve are too ****ing stupid to actually come up with a counter on their own. (excluding those alliances here who don't whine and who manage to fight us just fine as is, you know who you are )
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
the game isnt broken at all, and from what i can see there is 2 and a half more votes against the nerf than for it, unlucky m8, your t1 raven is still good at killing rats at least
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:02:00 -
[3489]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 14:00:10 Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 13:58:50
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
How realistic is it to draw conclusions about balance on the basis of a single 1v1 encounter in a game where there is 40k+ people on a server who could potentially jump in to fight?
To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
Its called a cap booster and the point is not to kill the drake the point was if need be we can simply disengage and after this nerf we are simply dead end of story
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:02:00 -
[3490]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 14:00:10 Edited by: Malachon Draco on 31/07/2008 13:58:50
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco Have you actually tested the changes? How sure are you that there still is a niche for nanoships?
I tried the famous Vaga vs. Drake encounter.....
The Vaga could not kill the Drake (neither should it be able to, being a cruiser vs. a battlecruiser). The Vaga took relatively little damage to heavy T2 missiles (speed tanking worked) and had no problem running away when it took too much. The Drake could only kill the Vaga if the Vaga pilot decided to stay until he was dead.
Ie. it worked exactly as it should when a fast cruiser comes up against a battlecruiser. If one of them had had help, for example another HAC helping the Vaga, or a tackler helping the Drake, it would have turned out differently.
Speed tanking worked for the smaller ship, but it didn't confer invulnerability. This is of.c. not what you want, but it IS balanced!
How realistic is it to draw conclusions about balance on the basis of a single 1v1 encounter in a game where there is 40k+ people on a server who could potentially jump in to fight?
To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
Its called a cap booster and the point is not to kill the drake the point was if need be we can simply disengage and after this nerf we are simply dead end of story
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:07:00 -
[3491]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 31/07/2008 18:08:02
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
No, not really. The reason that NANO is used by a lot of people is the same reason why missiles are used by a lot of people, or ECM, or trimarked plate tanks. If we had a massive nerf to "passive" armor tanks and removed slaves and introduced stacking to plates and made remote-reps less effective (including remote armor drones) it would be the same amount of whine. Why? Because they're all effective tactics for PvP.
The reason why there is such extra resistance about NANO is because NANO-ships is one (if not the only) way for a small gang to NOT ALWAYS GET CAUGHT by blobs. There simply isn't any other effective means to avoid blobs if you want to eg. get through bottlenecks.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:07:00 -
[3492]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 31/07/2008 18:08:02
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
No, not really. The reason that NANO is used by a lot of people is the same reason why missiles are used by a lot of people, or ECM, or trimarked plate tanks. If we had a massive nerf to "passive" armor tanks and removed slaves and introduced stacking to plates and made remote-reps less effective (including remote armor drones) it would be the same amount of whine. Why? Because they're all effective tactics for PvP.
The reason why there is such extra resistance about NANO is because NANO-ships is one (if not the only) way for a small gang to NOT ALWAYS GET CAUGHT by blobs. There simply isn't any other effective means to avoid blobs if you want to eg. get through bottlenecks.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:15:00 -
[3493]
Originally by: Vitrael I've done a bit more testing on Sisi:
1. Cruise missiles and large pulse lasers now easily destroy nano HACs and Recons. 2. Medium pulse lasers and heavy missiles now make interceptors go squish. 3. Even the slowest light drones now have no problems with nanoships. 4. No clear advantage of HAC over BC. 5. No clear advantage of HAC or BC over BS. 6. Minmatar battleships less agile than Caldari battleships.
All of these are - at least in my mind - glaring errors.
You forgot the fact that we have no damage and we tank like ass even with over 6.5 mill in gunnery so major major issues
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:15:00 -
[3494]
Originally by: Vitrael I've done a bit more testing on Sisi:
1. Cruise missiles and large pulse lasers now easily destroy nano HACs and Recons. 2. Medium pulse lasers and heavy missiles now make interceptors go squish. 3. Even the slowest light drones now have no problems with nanoships. 4. No clear advantage of HAC over BC. 5. No clear advantage of HAC or BC over BS. 6. Minmatar battleships less agile than Caldari battleships.
All of these are - at least in my mind - glaring errors.
You forgot the fact that we have no damage and we tank like ass even with over 6.5 mill in gunnery so major major issues
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:20:00 -
[3495]
Originally by: KISOGOKU Edited by: KISOGOKU on 31/07/2008 17:12:45 I think you need take a deep breath and rethink ,if i had been wanted to forced to play a class i dont want i would be on wow not at eve (or i might not understand english is not my native)
no your english is just fine, and you have illuminated the huge problem with the nano nerf and the concept of eve and why this game is going down the toobs. There are 4 races and then there are 2 kinds of PVPers. Good ones and Bad ones. For every situation there are logical, combat tested and mother approved fits/fleet types to use in a number of situations.
You clearly don't feel the nano fits into your play style, which is fine but that doesn't make it "right" for you and your friends to complain that its unfair or overpowered FOTM. Since its been 2 and a half years of nano in the game, its hardly FOTM. Instead of learning how to PVP with the possibility of engaging nano, you lose and die and get frustrated.
The goal of any tactic is to get kills, for enjoyment with the least amount of isk spent. Speed has always been apart of the game. But, after 2005 when the majority of game tweeks, double mwd, torps in standard launchers, etc where taken care of, trends in 0.0 embraced speed + newly added stuff. ECM inty/frig gangs were all the rage due to ECM/low HP, quick strike capability. Then the nano BS, as became hugely popular because of the insurability, the capability of bumping other ships 10's of km with relative easy.
Nanohacs/recon came into there own as the nanobs faded out except for the extremely expensive, fits/implants.
whats going on now is destroying the concept of speed all together, not just rebalancing... now no ship can dissipate damage due to the harsh penalities or lack of bonuses on the modules... and for what? to some how make the afterburner effective? so we relegate a dozens of modules and implants for the sole purpose of making 1 module a viable choice for PVP?
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:20:00 -
[3496]
Originally by: KISOGOKU Edited by: KISOGOKU on 31/07/2008 17:12:45 I think you need take a deep breath and rethink ,if i had been wanted to forced to play a class i dont want i would be on wow not at eve (or i might not understand english is not my native)
no your english is just fine, and you have illuminated the huge problem with the nano nerf and the concept of eve and why this game is going down the toobs. There are 4 races and then there are 2 kinds of PVPers. Good ones and Bad ones. For every situation there are logical, combat tested and mother approved fits/fleet types to use in a number of situations.
You clearly don't feel the nano fits into your play style, which is fine but that doesn't make it "right" for you and your friends to complain that its unfair or overpowered FOTM. Since its been 2 and a half years of nano in the game, its hardly FOTM. Instead of learning how to PVP with the possibility of engaging nano, you lose and die and get frustrated.
The goal of any tactic is to get kills, for enjoyment with the least amount of isk spent. Speed has always been apart of the game. But, after 2005 when the majority of game tweeks, double mwd, torps in standard launchers, etc where taken care of, trends in 0.0 embraced speed + newly added stuff. ECM inty/frig gangs were all the rage due to ECM/low HP, quick strike capability. Then the nano BS, as became hugely popular because of the insurability, the capability of bumping other ships 10's of km with relative easy.
Nanohacs/recon came into there own as the nanobs faded out except for the extremely expensive, fits/implants.
whats going on now is destroying the concept of speed all together, not just rebalancing... now no ship can dissipate damage due to the harsh penalities or lack of bonuses on the modules... and for what? to some how make the afterburner effective? so we relegate a dozens of modules and implants for the sole purpose of making 1 module a viable choice for PVP?
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:23:00 -
[3497]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
Consider option #2 - That it's the most fun/high skill/low numbers mechanic left to us. If you could boost cloaks, AFs, marauders, black ops....I'd rather be flying those, but all of them have major issues which prevent roaming gangs from using them.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:23:00 -
[3498]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Synapse Archae Terrible change. ALL your most highly skilled PVPers are nano pilots. We love it, we think it's balanced fine.
What an excessively GOOD argument FOR the nano nerf! You're just demonstrating that you all KNOW that nano'ing ships are overpowered too. Otherwise, why are you ALL flying them????
Sorry, but you just pointed a BIG shotgun at the pro-nano teams foot!
Consider option #2 - That it's the most fun/high skill/low numbers mechanic left to us. If you could boost cloaks, AFs, marauders, black ops....I'd rather be flying those, but all of them have major issues which prevent roaming gangs from using them.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:37:00 -
[3499]
People fly nanos because it's fun. When you spend weeks or months doing fleet stuff with battleships and capitals, it is an incredibly rush. It's also nice to not have to wait 3 hours to get 15 minutes of lag, followed by manually reloading each of your guns.
You can scream FOTM all you want. It's not. It is a response to the blob tactics that the powerbloc style of alliance 0.0 have turned to.
When all that happens in 0.0 are races to see who can make the biggest homogeneous support blob or 200v200 Battleship slugfests or lagtastic capital fights where you lose 3B ISK without loading grid, people find an alternative that's fun. And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising Brotherhood of Nod.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:37:00 -
[3500]
People fly nanos because it's fun. When you spend weeks or months doing fleet stuff with battleships and capitals, it is an incredibly rush. It's also nice to not have to wait 3 hours to get 15 minutes of lag, followed by manually reloading each of your guns.
You can scream FOTM all you want. It's not. It is a response to the blob tactics that the powerbloc style of alliance 0.0 have turned to.
When all that happens in 0.0 are races to see who can make the biggest homogeneous support blob or 200v200 Battleship slugfests or lagtastic capital fights where you lose 3B ISK without loading grid, people find an alternative that's fun. And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 19:15:00 -
[3501]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:11:53 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:07:56
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly* with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC (since my weapon system needs no modules to dictate range, facilitate tracking etc) and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
*EDIT: Make that 3-4 times more costly. Sorry, was thinking implants for the Vaga as well.
Price is dictated by market demand.... less demand for nano means less cost for the ship. Hac's aren't expensive b/c of thier build cost, polycarbs aren't expensive b/c of their rarity. They're expensive b/c every wants them right now. Reduced demand means lower cost, so quit arguing about cost vs reward.
This is wrong for the most part. Supply/demand factors the market price but by very small margins. And if you actualy check the market you'll see that there's far more supply on HACs than demand.
As an Ishtar and Deimos manufacturer I can tell you that the cost of the Ishtar (which is a standard nano ship) is 45m up to 75m depending on if you have the tech2 bpo or you're inventing it AND have tech2 material deals (Get EVEMeep and do the numbers if you won't take my word for it). Most of the supply is invented and that means the production cost is way high. Not too mention that T2 insurance is a joke.
The only problem the supply/demand chain is causing, is the prices to actually drop continously up to the point inventors can barely make any profit if they can at all. (But that's another topic entirely that needs to get looked upon).
So how much does the Drake cost? The price difference is insane and a HAC is considered the same class as a BC (T2 ships are on par with their higher tier when compared in strengths). Yet, by your mentality, the HAC shouldn't be able to touch a BC.
PS This is not an argument in favour or against the nanonerf. It's just meant to point out that your facts and logic are fundamentally flawed.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 19:15:00 -
[3502]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Originally by: Demus DaVet Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:11:53 Edited by: Demus DaVet on 31/07/2008 15:07:56
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco To add, how would this encounter have ended on TQ today? Exactly the same I bet. A Drake can easily permatank a Vaga. He might do less damage to the Vaga, but the vaga could never pop him. Since the vaga cannot permarun its MWD in any normal nanosetup, the Drake would start damaging him once the MWD ran out.
It's called a 'Micro-Warp Drive', not a 'Micro-Warp and Invulnerability Drive'. Any particular reason (except for you flying one) that the Vaga should be invulnerable to a Drake once it turns on its MWD?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the main reason the MWD increases the signature by 5x or more is that the ship using it should become MORE vulnerable to compensate for the benefits of the speed increase!
So it's good for your Drake to idle around invulnerable to the HAC (which is about 4-5 times more costly* with just tech2 and rigs mind you) in both cases, but it's bad for the HAC to be able to evade damage.
I mean evading damage is so much more different than "Hey! look! I can fit a BS-class tank on my BC (since my weapon system needs no modules to dictate range, facilitate tracking etc) and will take 10 of you to take me down while my weapon system can dish a steady stream of damage!". Right, I get your point. I just hope you used t2 precision missiles and not damage ones...
Also, if you want to do tests that are somewaht relevant, try it with the Cerberus (exact same class) with t2 precision missiles both on TQ and on Sisi. Let's see how fast the Vagabond will warp out. I bet it'll warp out faster than it warps in.
*EDIT: Make that 3-4 times more costly. Sorry, was thinking implants for the Vaga as well.
Price is dictated by market demand.... less demand for nano means less cost for the ship. Hac's aren't expensive b/c of thier build cost, polycarbs aren't expensive b/c of their rarity. They're expensive b/c every wants them right now. Reduced demand means lower cost, so quit arguing about cost vs reward.
This is wrong for the most part. Supply/demand factors the market price but by very small margins. And if you actualy check the market you'll see that there's far more supply on HACs than demand.
As an Ishtar and Deimos manufacturer I can tell you that the cost of the Ishtar (which is a standard nano ship) is 45m up to 75m depending on if you have the tech2 bpo or you're inventing it AND have tech2 material deals (Get EVEMeep and do the numbers if you won't take my word for it). Most of the supply is invented and that means the production cost is way high. Not too mention that T2 insurance is a joke.
The only problem the supply/demand chain is causing, is the prices to actually drop continously up to the point inventors can barely make any profit if they can at all. (But that's another topic entirely that needs to get looked upon).
So how much does the Drake cost? The price difference is insane and a HAC is considered the same class as a BC (T2 ships are on par with their higher tier when compared in strengths). Yet, by your mentality, the HAC shouldn't be able to touch a BC.
PS This is not an argument in favour or against the nanonerf. It's just meant to point out that your facts and logic are fundamentally flawed.
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malet
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 19:19:00 -
[3503]
We get stupid speeds becasue the game allows us to train skills specifically for it. The game also puts in place the modules that allow us to reach these speeds. Now CCP decide it`s time to move the goal posts again. Many of us nano pilots have spent months of training to facilitate the speeds people here are moaning about.
The ship setups sometimes run into the billions so we are and already have paid the price for speed. The problem here is as far as I see it, there are thousands of non nano pilots out there that cant be bothered to actually think to them selves "" how can I kill this guy "". Instead they get frustrated and die.
My charachter is fully specced when it comes to speed and can hit extreme speeds in both the vaga and the ceptor. Why? because I invested nearly a year of training time making sure thats what I could do. If the newer players cant catch me then is that really my fault?
This game is soon going to be a case of warp press F1-F7 and thats it.
What about the command ship pilots that have spent the time training all the skirmish mods etc for speed gangs to benefit ftrom their bonuses. Again a complete waste of time and isk.
CCP - As far as I`m concerned with this nerf you will be effectivley shunning the older player base,, that might I remind you have been subscribing to you for years and pay your wages!!, in favour of moans and groans from players that cannot think for themselves. Nano gangs can be countered as the tools are already there to do it. The rapier or huggin will make 99% of nano pilots think twice about engaging. Neuts also will make a run for the hills. So I truly fail to see how you feel the game is unbalanced. If so then what are you going to do about the thousands of players that have trained all the nav skills hac 5 etc purely to hit these speeds? and now you just throw us aside.
You can keep my subsciption if this goes through as the game will go down hill faster than the speed a nano ship can ever go. QUAM - Hot dropping a system near you soon
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malet
Quam Singulari
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:19:00 -
[3504]
We get stupid speeds becasue the game allows us to train skills specifically for it. The game also puts in place the modules that allow us to reach these speeds. Now CCP decide it`s time to move the goal posts again. Many of us nano pilots have spent months of training to facilitate the speeds people here are moaning about.
The ship setups sometimes run into the billions so we are and already have paid the price for speed. The problem here is as far as I see it, there are thousands of non nano pilots out there that cant be bothered to actually think to them selves "" how can I kill this guy "". Instead they get frustrated and die.
My charachter is fully specced when it comes to speed and can hit extreme speeds in both the vaga and the ceptor. Why? because I invested nearly a year of training time making sure thats what I could do. If the newer players cant catch me then is that really my fault?
This game is soon going to be a case of warp press F1-F7 and thats it.
What about the command ship pilots that have spent the time training all the skirmish mods etc for speed gangs to benefit ftrom their bonuses. Again a complete waste of time and isk.
CCP - As far as I`m concerned with this nerf you will be effectivley shunning the older player base,, that might I remind you have been subscribing to you for years and pay your wages!!, in favour of moans and groans from players that cannot think for themselves. Nano gangs can be countered as the tools are already there to do it. The rapier or huggin will make 99% of nano pilots think twice about engaging. Neuts also will make a run for the hills. So I truly fail to see how you feel the game is unbalanced. If so then what are you going to do about the thousands of players that have trained all the nav skills hac 5 etc purely to hit these speeds? and now you just throw us aside.
You can keep my subsciption if this goes through as the game will go down hill faster than the speed a nano ship can ever go. QUAM - Hot dropping a system near you soon
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Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:49:00 -
[3505]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
lol i don't fly any sort of nano ship except my cloaking alt, which flys a an atron. . . hows that for your presumptuous ass
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Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:49:00 -
[3506]
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
lol i don't fly any sort of nano ship except my cloaking alt, which flys a an atron. . . hows that for your presumptuous ass
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:06:00 -
[3507]
Just to clarify -
Things that nanos cannot do
1. Attack poses and capture stations. 2. Destroy capital ships 3. Play an important part in the actual buisness of interalliance warfare. 4. Fight 1 vs 1 and expect to win. 5. Fight equal numbers and do anything other than run away.
Things nanos can do
1. Catch people who aren't fitted for PvP and kill them. 2. Run away.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:06:00 -
[3508]
Just to clarify -
Things that nanos cannot do
1. Attack poses and capture stations. 2. Destroy capital ships 3. Play an important part in the actual buisness of interalliance warfare. 4. Fight 1 vs 1 and expect to win. 5. Fight equal numbers and do anything other than run away.
Things nanos can do
1. Catch people who aren't fitted for PvP and kill them. 2. Run away.
|
Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:11:00 -
[3509]
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:11:00 -
[3510]
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
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Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:12:00 -
[3511]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:14:22 Yes, that is an excellent breakdown of nano ships abilities. with the exception of the 1v1 thing; a nano ship fit better than ANOTHER nano ship can beat it 1v1. Look, I see the forum wars going on and I can only say that my suggestion not only works, it completes the intended objective and it changes as little as possible for eve. I fear for you CCP, I fear you will lose a huge player base if the changes to speed go through as they are planned and I urge, no, I beg you to reconsider and look for my posts on those forums, listen to me when I say there is a simple solution, nothing drastic need be done. You needn't nerf the whole game to knock speed tankers down a peg. All thats needed to be done is increase stacking penalties. . . .thats it. Stacking penalties against rigs, propulsion upgrade modules (not MWDs and AB's) and implants (snakes). If these are increased in the stacking penalty area, instantly you will have leveled the playing field. Gone will be the insane speed I understand is reachable, but also unchanged remains the mechanics we know and love today. The changes about to be implemented will be much too radical, too extreme and even nonsensical, leaving your player base scratching theirs heads, but not not paying for this game. I am about to get my Command ship, the Astarte which will rely heavily on my MWD to get in range of blasters. This nerf will make my ship nearly completely useless, as anyone can scram me, deactivating my mwd, get out of range while keeping me pointed and I am dead and done for, if they can out dps me even a tiny bit, for I have no way to fight back, being pointed and out of range. This is true even MORE so against drone attack boats. Please CCP, PLEASE consider what I am saying and my fellows are saying, speed needs a little drop in their advantages over us (one person here posted that they are very little to no risk to take into battle, which I find is indeed the case), but please do not nerf everyone in eve to bring down 3 or 4 ships fits.
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:12:00 -
[3512]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:14:22 Yes, that is an excellent breakdown of nano ships abilities. with the exception of the 1v1 thing; a nano ship fit better than ANOTHER nano ship can beat it 1v1. Look, I see the forum wars going on and I can only say that my suggestion not only works, it completes the intended objective and it changes as little as possible for eve. I fear for you CCP, I fear you will lose a huge player base if the changes to speed go through as they are planned and I urge, no, I beg you to reconsider and look for my posts on those forums, listen to me when I say there is a simple solution, nothing drastic need be done. You needn't nerf the whole game to knock speed tankers down a peg. All thats needed to be done is increase stacking penalties. . . .thats it. Stacking penalties against rigs, propulsion upgrade modules (not MWDs and AB's) and implants (snakes). If these are increased in the stacking penalty area, instantly you will have leveled the playing field. Gone will be the insane speed I understand is reachable, but also unchanged remains the mechanics we know and love today. The changes about to be implemented will be much too radical, too extreme and even nonsensical, leaving your player base scratching theirs heads, but not not paying for this game. I am about to get my Command ship, the Astarte which will rely heavily on my MWD to get in range of blasters. This nerf will make my ship nearly completely useless, as anyone can scram me, deactivating my mwd, get out of range while keeping me pointed and I am dead and done for, if they can out dps me even a tiny bit, for I have no way to fight back, being pointed and out of range. This is true even MORE so against drone attack boats. Please CCP, PLEASE consider what I am saying and my fellows are saying, speed needs a little drop in their advantages over us (one person here posted that they are very little to no risk to take into battle, which I find is indeed the case), but please do not nerf everyone in eve to bring down 3 or 4 ships fits.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:13:00 -
[3513]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
lol i don't fly any sort of nano ship except my cloaking alt, which flys a an atron. . . hows that for your presumptuous ass
i have never fit speed implants. EVER the fastest my vagabond ever went was under 5km/s, and i couldn't sustain the mwd. these days in FW, i much prefer an upclose and personal rupture. been getting a lot of fun out of destroyers.
regardless. from a person that lives in his own house and pays the bills (i'm an adult, not in my moms basement) AND been playing this game over 4 years, looking at the changes all together this is the worst move ccp has ever made.
speed is part of the game. as the majority of ppl w/ brains in their heads are says, sure, nerf speed, but dont RUIN THE GAME
*bring all the ships base speeds in line (great idea) *nerf the ability to use gang warefare/implants/boosters(rare)/faction items to achieve rediculous speeds.
leave the BASE MECHANICS OF PVP ALONE.
i swear to god this is like watching someone getting ready to cut the wrong wire on the bomb. you scream NOOO!! but they cant hear you. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:13:00 -
[3514]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Wizzkidy LOL just LOL - I bet EVERY SINGLE pilot that has moaned about these changes either has a set of snakes in there head or fly nano's on a regular basis - dont deny it :D
I think its funny I really do, things come and things go lads, this was always the beauty of EVE.
Nano's where in for the nerf EVERYONE and the cats mother new it was coming.
It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
lol i don't fly any sort of nano ship except my cloaking alt, which flys a an atron. . . hows that for your presumptuous ass
i have never fit speed implants. EVER the fastest my vagabond ever went was under 5km/s, and i couldn't sustain the mwd. these days in FW, i much prefer an upclose and personal rupture. been getting a lot of fun out of destroyers.
regardless. from a person that lives in his own house and pays the bills (i'm an adult, not in my moms basement) AND been playing this game over 4 years, looking at the changes all together this is the worst move ccp has ever made.
speed is part of the game. as the majority of ppl w/ brains in their heads are says, sure, nerf speed, but dont RUIN THE GAME
*bring all the ships base speeds in line (great idea) *nerf the ability to use gang warefare/implants/boosters(rare)/faction items to achieve rediculous speeds.
leave the BASE MECHANICS OF PVP ALONE.
i swear to god this is like watching someone getting ready to cut the wrong wire on the bomb. you scream NOOO!! but they cant hear you. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:16:00 -
[3515]
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 20:16:34 There was a wonderful post in this thread.
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Incorrect. Read my thread on Anti-blob tactics.
The only thing that killed all anti-blob tactics was Nano. Nano meant the entire blob can warp to as far as the fastest ship, thus making a mockery of tactics baised upon countering a clumsey blob. This forced people to use bigger blobs vs blobs since both sides would be on top of each other at the same time, removing any incentive for lean mean small fleets to "peel the onion" of the clumsey blob by using drivebys and revese bottleneck gatecamp tactics etc which work very very well vs clumsey blobs.
Nano going away will mean anti-blob tactics will return to the game now. This is excellent.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:16:00 -
[3516]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 31/07/2008 20:19:25
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
2 ships cant hit each other? GOOD its not about fun, its about balance.
more than one ship needed to kill a ship? you dont say.... in a mmo? more than one player needed??
hows this, i get an arazu and damp/scram you outside your locking range. how about this, i get a falcon and i jam the crap out of you. scram you, and just sit there.
any specialized ship likely needs some amount of team work OR THE SAME SPECIALIZED SHIP to take it down.
vaga will be going 3500m/s? sure about that are ya?
edit: that last part was just rude. your right, it needs nerfed. but not the in the current manner, and not for the reasons your presenting. Its the most extreme of the fittings/pilots. not the average that are the problem ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:16:00 -
[3517]
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 20:16:34 There was a wonderful post in this thread.
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Incorrect. Read my thread on Anti-blob tactics.
The only thing that killed all anti-blob tactics was Nano. Nano meant the entire blob can warp to as far as the fastest ship, thus making a mockery of tactics baised upon countering a clumsey blob. This forced people to use bigger blobs vs blobs since both sides would be on top of each other at the same time, removing any incentive for lean mean small fleets to "peel the onion" of the clumsey blob by using drivebys and revese bottleneck gatecamp tactics etc which work very very well vs clumsey blobs.
Nano going away will mean anti-blob tactics will return to the game now. This is excellent.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:16:00 -
[3518]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 31/07/2008 20:19:25
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
2 ships cant hit each other? GOOD its not about fun, its about balance.
more than one ship needed to kill a ship? you dont say.... in a mmo? more than one player needed??
hows this, i get an arazu and damp/scram you outside your locking range. how about this, i get a falcon and i jam the crap out of you. scram you, and just sit there.
any specialized ship likely needs some amount of team work OR THE SAME SPECIALIZED SHIP to take it down.
vaga will be going 3500m/s? sure about that are ya?
edit: that last part was just rude. your right, it needs nerfed. but not the in the current manner, and not for the reasons your presenting. Its the most extreme of the fittings/pilots. not the average that are the problem ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:17:00 -
[3519]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:20:03 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:18:38 hahah nice bomb reference, and i agree with you on everything but nerfing the already slow as frozen shit speed on ships like the astarte and brutix; they are already bricks, they needn't MORE speed dropping and changes to the way they fight, its hard enough as it is, having to close the gap fast and get in the punches. . . my speed will be gone. . . and i don't even nano. . . :(
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Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:17:00 -
[3520]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:20:03 Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 31/07/2008 20:18:38 hahah nice bomb reference, and i agree with you on everything but nerfing the already slow as frozen shit speed on ships like the astarte and brutix; they are already bricks, they needn't MORE speed dropping and changes to the way they fight, its hard enough as it is, having to close the gap fast and get in the punches. . . my speed will be gone. . . and i don't even nano. . . :(
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Kerfira
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:23:00 -
[3521]
Originally by: HankMurphy vaga will be going 3500m/s? sure about that are ya?
2 nano 2 OD 2 poly Drugs or gang bonus Maybe an implant.
Yes, it'll go 3500...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:23:00 -
[3522]
Edited by: Kerfira on 31/07/2008 20:27:15
Originally by: HankMurphy more than one ship needed to kill a ship? you dont say.... in a mmo? more than one player needed??
You're right, that one doesn't hold. It was however just in response to Malachon.... When anyone has tried to argue that a nano-gang vs. a non-nano gang (same sizes) grossly shows off the unbalanced nature of the nanos, his answer is that the non-nano's should bring way more ships. Seems like magic nano-gangs in his mind has the right to own anyone else since they fit leet magic modules....
Originally by: HankMurphy vaga will be going 3500m/s? sure about that are ya?
2 nano 2 OD 2 poly Drugs or gang bonus Maybe an implant.
Yes, it'll go 3500...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:30:00 -
[3523]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
Just like well-known heavy speed-gang alliance members hurt their case against the nano-change by stating their opinion, you are hurting your case for the nano-change with comments like that. It sounds like whining, whatever the intent.
Back on topic, why do you think that removing nano-cruisers as a viable alternative will make people fly battleships instead? Don't you think it more likely that the current nano-ship pilots will switch to stealth bombers, force recons and inties instead? People will not want to suddenly risk their slow BS if they didn't want to do so before the change. This change will be very detrimental to non-large gang combat.
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Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:30:00 -
[3524]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai It's going to be like the good old days where tank and BS rule (and rightly so) I would rather that situation then a bunch of cruisers going 12m/s sec
Just like well-known heavy speed-gang alliance members hurt their case against the nano-change by stating their opinion, you are hurting your case for the nano-change with comments like that. It sounds like whining, whatever the intent.
Back on topic, why do you think that removing nano-cruisers as a viable alternative will make people fly battleships instead? Don't you think it more likely that the current nano-ship pilots will switch to stealth bombers, force recons and inties instead? People will not want to suddenly risk their slow BS if they didn't want to do so before the change. This change will be very detrimental to non-large gang combat.
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Finn Yr
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 20:57:00 -
[3525]
Listen up, RTFM (or the dev blog in this case): It¦s not just about the balance of the ships. All you speed-freaks need to chill a little bit. We¦ve all been nerfed at one time or another - don¦t lose your collective heads, ok? 130 pages of whining, jeez......
:) It¦s ALSO about the GAME ENGINE. Says so right there in the dev blog. The graphics engine is not coping with the current speeds attainable. To the detriment of all of us, hmmm....not just you guys. So stop whining, adapt (your favorite phrase, right?).
Act like the grown-ups you say you are and enjoy the game. I know I will.....
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Finn Yr
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:57:00 -
[3526]
Listen up, RTFM (or the dev blog in this case): It¦s not just about the balance of the ships. All you speed-freaks need to chill a little bit. We¦ve all been nerfed at one time or another - don¦t lose your collective heads, ok? 130 pages of whining, jeez......
:) It¦s ALSO about the GAME ENGINE. Says so right there in the dev blog. The graphics engine is not coping with the current speeds attainable. To the detriment of all of us, hmmm....not just you guys. So stop whining, adapt (your favorite phrase, right?).
Act like the grown-ups you say you are and enjoy the game. I know I will.....
|
Pithecanthropus
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:15:00 -
[3527]
Originally by: Haakelen People fly nanos because it's fun.
wrong... they fly nanos cuz its easy to kill, run, never get caught, never take damage, and to play near invincible. people fly nanos cuz they are good and overpowered. thus, why pvp has turned into ludicrous speed.
Quote: And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
no, you made Eve disgusting... lopsided... and game about speed. you made Eve your selfish ego trip. you want speed. CCP adjusted speed that is balanced... in line with other tanks... and a fair tactic among ALL of Eve
Adapt as we all have over the years... you'll find the latest and greatest new tactic that is out there waiting to be found! I'm excited, Eve is changing and new horizons are forming. Its not long your Haakelen Nano Online... waaa-waaa-waaaaa.
I'm guessing you won't leave Eve cuz you have too much fun forum trolling, but if you do... can I have your stuff? --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Pithecanthropus
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:15:00 -
[3528]
Originally by: Haakelen People fly nanos because it's fun.
wrong... they fly nanos cuz its easy to kill, run, never get caught, never take damage, and to play near invincible. people fly nanos cuz they are good and overpowered. thus, why pvp has turned into ludicrous speed.
Quote: And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
no, you made Eve disgusting... lopsided... and game about speed. you made Eve your selfish ego trip. you want speed. CCP adjusted speed that is balanced... in line with other tanks... and a fair tactic among ALL of Eve
Adapt as we all have over the years... you'll find the latest and greatest new tactic that is out there waiting to be found! I'm excited, Eve is changing and new horizons are forming. Its not long your Haakelen Nano Online... waaa-waaa-waaaaa.
I'm guessing you won't leave Eve cuz you have too much fun forum trolling, but if you do... can I have your stuff? --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Demondrew
Minmatar Trident Enterprises Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:21:00 -
[3529]
Dear CCP Wrangler and Nozh,
Great you have managed to nerf something else without adding content again. Why don't you actually do some work and add some viable anti nano ships rather than nerfbating crap. So far you have now wasted your subscribers time in skill training for nano combat which you have allowed for almost 2 years so all the current and past subscribers should be able to sue you for time and the cost of the lost skills needed to fly these ships.
Nozh your blog is limp attempt to rebalance the game which has become a blob fest rather than good pilots and pvpers dogfighting. How about fixing the lag in the blob crap fest you have going in pos warfare first rather than nerfbatting this last vestage of solo or small gang combat left. I hope I see you at fan fest so I can give you a.....wait your not fan this is just your job nerfing rather than inventing new ships or modules... Go back to your drawing board and fix lag rather than speed.
|
Demondrew
Minmatar Trident Enterprises Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:21:00 -
[3530]
Dear CCP Wrangler and Nozh,
Great you have managed to nerf something else without adding content again. Why don't you actually do some work and add some viable anti nano ships rather than nerfbating crap. So far you have now wasted your subscribers time in skill training for nano combat which you have allowed for almost 2 years so all the current and past subscribers should be able to sue you for time and the cost of the lost skills needed to fly these ships.
Nozh your blog is limp attempt to rebalance the game which has become a blob fest rather than good pilots and pvpers dogfighting. How about fixing the lag in the blob crap fest you have going in pos warfare first rather than nerfbatting this last vestage of solo or small gang combat left. I hope I see you at fan fest so I can give you a.....wait your not fan this is just your job nerfing rather than inventing new ships or modules... Go back to your drawing board and fix lag rather than speed.
|
|
Kyle Haque
Solstice Systems Development Concourse Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:49:00 -
[3531]
Edited by: Kyle Haque on 31/07/2008 21:50:42
Originally by: Finn Yr Listen up, RTFM (or the dev blog in this case): It¦s not just about the balance of the ships. All you speed-freaks need to chill a little bit. We¦ve all been nerfed at one time or another - don¦t lose your collective heads, ok? 130 pages of whining, jeez...... :) It¦s ALSO about the GAME ENGINE. Says so right there in the dev blog. The graphics engine is not coping with the current speeds attainable. To the detriment of all of us, hmmm....not just you guys. So stop whining, adapt (your favorite phrase, right?).
Act like the grown-ups you say you are and enjoy the game. I know I will.....
Incase you weren't paying attention in the last year or so we already had speed nerfed. Remember the nanophoon? When they nerfed it back then we came to a conclusion that super speed and agility make for overpowered ships (along with nos and missles). CCP decided that battleships could still be fast but they would be gimped and turn like bricks an other ships were fine to exist in there speedy state. Guess what it worked and we didn't have battleships and for that matter any ships that could match inties speed and agility.
This was all fine and well till of late where out of no where all these speed ships which existed for well over a year start breaking the game engine. How did this occur all of a sudden? Where was this engine breaking when the first nanonerf was instated? If it was there why we wait a year or more to deal with it? Was the new trinity engine coded properly?
Well i noticed the game engine seems break when you have a more than 200ish ships on grid. Might that be the problem?
|
Kyle Haque
Solstice Systems Development Concourse Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:49:00 -
[3532]
Edited by: Kyle Haque on 31/07/2008 21:50:42
Originally by: Finn Yr Listen up, RTFM (or the dev blog in this case): It¦s not just about the balance of the ships. All you speed-freaks need to chill a little bit. We¦ve all been nerfed at one time or another - don¦t lose your collective heads, ok? 130 pages of whining, jeez...... :) It¦s ALSO about the GAME ENGINE. Says so right there in the dev blog. The graphics engine is not coping with the current speeds attainable. To the detriment of all of us, hmmm....not just you guys. So stop whining, adapt (your favorite phrase, right?).
Act like the grown-ups you say you are and enjoy the game. I know I will.....
Incase you weren't paying attention in the last year or so we already had speed nerfed. Remember the nanophoon? When they nerfed it back then we came to a conclusion that super speed and agility make for overpowered ships (along with nos and missles). CCP decided that battleships could still be fast but they would be gimped and turn like bricks an other ships were fine to exist in there speedy state. Guess what it worked and we didn't have battleships and for that matter any ships that could match inties speed and agility.
This was all fine and well till of late where out of no where all these speed ships which existed for well over a year start breaking the game engine. How did this occur all of a sudden? Where was this engine breaking when the first nanonerf was instated? If it was there why we wait a year or more to deal with it? Was the new trinity engine coded properly?
Well i noticed the game engine seems break when you have a more than 200ish ships on grid. Might that be the problem?
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:55:00 -
[3533]
Originally by: Kerfira
2 nano 2 OD 2 poly Drugs or gang bonus Maybe an implant.
Yes, it'll go 3500...
drugs?
ok, lets not take things to the extreme. thats what got us into this mess to begin with.
the average t2 vaga out with his friends (MAYBE has a gang mod, gonna say less times than most) is not going to reach that speed, from what i've been seeing 2/3ds of that will be more likely.
either way we are getting a bit off center i think in every arguement before and after the nerf the vaga is the exception to the discussion.
we are better off discussing the line of HACs as a whole. which sadly are being thrown to the wolves in some half assed attempt to rebuild pvp from the ground up without taking into account the hundreds of subtle tweaks and rebalances, ships/module and item stats that have been built based off of the way things are now.
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Haakelen People fly nanos because it's fun.
wrong... they fly nanos cuz its easy to kill, run, never get caught, never take damage, and to play near invincible. people fly nanos cuz they are good and overpowered. thus, why pvp has turned into ludicrous speed.
Quote: And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
no, you made Eve disgusting... lopsided... and game about speed. you made Eve your selfish ego trip. you want speed. CCP adjusted speed that is balanced... in line with other tanks... and a fair tactic among ALL of Eve
Adapt as we all have over the years... you'll find the latest and greatest new tactic that is out there waiting to be found! I'm excited, Eve is changing and new horizons are forming. Its not long your Haakelen Nano Online... waaa-waaa-waaaaa.
I'm guessing you won't leave Eve cuz you have too much fun forum trolling, but if you do... can I have your stuff?
what an intelligent arguement you've built. some ppl do fly nano ships for fun. Some people fly ships fast that aren't even nano ships
people that constantly polarize the argument to two sides are the very people making this such a **** up.
If you would focus on discussion of balance to speed without trying to make the arguement it shouldn't even be an element of the game, you wouldn't look like such an idiot.
The core of the arguement isn't speed vs anti speed. Its about finding a good balance, leaving speed in the game and NOT RUINING the very foundation of pvp (the way tackling works). |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:55:00 -
[3534]
Originally by: Kerfira
2 nano 2 OD 2 poly Drugs or gang bonus Maybe an implant.
Yes, it'll go 3500...
drugs?
ok, lets not take things to the extreme. thats what got us into this mess to begin with.
the average t2 vaga out with his friends (MAYBE has a gang mod, gonna say less times than most) is not going to reach that speed, from what i've been seeing 2/3ds of that will be more likely.
either way we are getting a bit off center i think in every arguement before and after the nerf the vaga is the exception to the discussion.
we are better off discussing the line of HACs as a whole. which sadly are being thrown to the wolves in some half assed attempt to rebuild pvp from the ground up without taking into account the hundreds of subtle tweaks and rebalances, ships/module and item stats that have been built based off of the way things are now.
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Haakelen People fly nanos because it's fun.
wrong... they fly nanos cuz its easy to kill, run, never get caught, never take damage, and to play near invincible. people fly nanos cuz they are good and overpowered. thus, why pvp has turned into ludicrous speed.
Quote: And now CCP's destroying it. It's as if CCP is punishing us for making 0.0 fun.
no, you made Eve disgusting... lopsided... and game about speed. you made Eve your selfish ego trip. you want speed. CCP adjusted speed that is balanced... in line with other tanks... and a fair tactic among ALL of Eve
Adapt as we all have over the years... you'll find the latest and greatest new tactic that is out there waiting to be found! I'm excited, Eve is changing and new horizons are forming. Its not long your Haakelen Nano Online... waaa-waaa-waaaaa.
I'm guessing you won't leave Eve cuz you have too much fun forum trolling, but if you do... can I have your stuff?
what an intelligent arguement you've built. some ppl do fly nano ships for fun. Some people fly ships fast that aren't even nano ships
people that constantly polarize the argument to two sides are the very people making this such a **** up.
If you would focus on discussion of balance to speed without trying to make the arguement it shouldn't even be an element of the game, you wouldn't look like such an idiot.
The core of the arguement isn't speed vs anti speed. Its about finding a good balance, leaving speed in the game and NOT RUINING the very foundation of pvp (the way tackling works). ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:58:00 -
[3535]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Stuff 2 posts up
Who in the world are you? $5 says you aren't even a nano pilot and have no idea if they are fun or not (they are). I would love to switch to another roaming paradigm (assault frigs/cloaks/bombers/black ops) none of them are fun or useful. In fact I'd bet youre relatively new to 0.0 PVP, period.
So why are you commenting on things you clearly have no experience with?
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:58:00 -
[3536]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Stuff 2 posts up
Who in the world are you? $5 says you aren't even a nano pilot and have no idea if they are fun or not (they are). I would love to switch to another roaming paradigm (assault frigs/cloaks/bombers/black ops) none of them are fun or useful. In fact I'd bet youre relatively new to 0.0 PVP, period.
So why are you commenting on things you clearly have no experience with?
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:02:00 -
[3537]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
jesus dude do you even play eve?
1. yes the drake cant kill the vaga cos of its speed, but the vaga cant kill the drake either, so does that mean passive tanking is overpowered and must be nerfed? 2. wtf r u on about cov ops cant be used as warp ins, they are used all the time!!! 3. you say just because a ship fits a certain module it needs lots of enemys to take it down? well just because a drake fits a passive tank which needs multiple ships to break, does that make it need nerfing? and anyway it isnt just one module, you have to sacrifice damage mods to be able to go fast enough 4. how is sniper warfare dead? sniper warfare is the bulk of most large scale fleet combat, nanos dont stop them
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:02:00 -
[3538]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco 1. Its not invulnerable. It can be webbed and neuted or overtaken by ceptors to be webbed and scrambled.
Only if the pilot is incredibly stupid. He deserves to die then. And why do you always want to add other ships to the mix of the nano-ships opponent? Are your sense of perspective so warped that you actually believe that just because a ship fits a special module, it should take a combination of several other ships to take it down???
Originally by: Malachon Draco 2. Even if it was invulnerable, it could not hit an enemy at those speeds.
Your point? What's so fun about having two ships that can't hit each other....
Originally by: Malachon Draco 3. The supposed 'invulnerability' lasts about 90 seconds or so. With those limitations, I see no reason not to allow it. As far as I'm concerned, a force recon and covops being able to warp while cloaked is far more overpowered than a vaga possibly not getting hit for 90 seconds if his enemy is too stupid to bring rapiers/huginns/heavy neutralizers/hyenas/decent interceptors.
There you go again with your argument that wielding the magic MWD, it should take a combination of other ships to defeat a nano-ship.
Nano-ships killed fleet sniping and made the ability to use cov-ops for warpins in battle useless. Nano-ships are in the process of killing all other forms of small-gang combat, simply because it is much more efficient (don't loose many ships). EVE'll be better off when it is gone.
Even a Vaga will still be going 3500 m/s or so. That is enough to get away in most situations, and is enough to negate about 80-90% of the damage of heavy missiles. You'll not be close to invulnerable anymore, but then again, no ship should be!
jesus dude do you even play eve?
1. yes the drake cant kill the vaga cos of its speed, but the vaga cant kill the drake either, so does that mean passive tanking is overpowered and must be nerfed? 2. wtf r u on about cov ops cant be used as warp ins, they are used all the time!!! 3. you say just because a ship fits a certain module it needs lots of enemys to take it down? well just because a drake fits a passive tank which needs multiple ships to break, does that make it need nerfing? and anyway it isnt just one module, you have to sacrifice damage mods to be able to go fast enough 4. how is sniper warfare dead? sniper warfare is the bulk of most large scale fleet combat, nanos dont stop them
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:05:00 -
[3539]
Edited by: Haakelen on 31/07/2008 22:08:52 I am not opposed to the concept that 'HACs and Recons and Battleships with polys and Snakes and ganglinks are too fast'. Fine. Okay.
Role Bonus to all HACs and Recons and the Machariel: -45% Effective speed boost to MWDs.
That would be more reasonable than the changes on Sisi. The stuff currently breaks countless other mechanics that were completely unrelated to HACs and Polycarbons.
PS: No, you can't have my stuff. The new guerilla combat is range and cloaks. It will never be safe for you carebears. You will be crying to nerf things in less than three weeks after the patch if they keep the current changes.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising Brotherhood of Nod.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:05:00 -
[3540]
Edited by: Haakelen on 31/07/2008 22:08:52 I am not opposed to the concept that 'HACs and Recons and Battleships with polys and Snakes and ganglinks are too fast'. Fine. Okay.
Role Bonus to all HACs and Recons and the Machariel: -45% Effective speed boost to MWDs.
That would be more reasonable than the changes on Sisi. The stuff currently breaks countless other mechanics that were completely unrelated to HACs and Polycarbons.
PS: No, you can't have my stuff. The new guerilla combat is range and cloaks. It will never be safe for you carebears. You will be crying to nerf things in less than three weeks after the patch if they keep the current changes.
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:09:00 -
[3541]
there are already counter nano mods
the neut and the web
there are already counter nano ships
the rapier and the huginn and maybe the curse
now all you whiners need to do is to possibly not SUCK.
end of.
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 22:09:00 -
[3542]
there are already counter nano mods
the neut and the web
there are already counter nano ships
the rapier and the huginn and maybe the curse
now all you whiners need to do is to possibly not SUCK.
end of.
|
EadTaes
Minmatar Veni Vidi Vici. Red Dawn Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 23:02:00 -
[3543]
I like it and I like the reasoning. How ever here is a suggestion to make aftherburners viable VS MWDs.
First have warp scramblers not affect MWDs. I know it sounds liek ti should stopt hem but this must not happen since mwds will truely become useless since ships that do not fit a scrambler are few and far appart.
For MWD: 1: Remove the 25% cap ammoun't penalty. 2: Add a significant agilaty lost while the mwd is active. (So that mainting an orbit lower then 24km is not possible) 3: If possible remove the or reduce the signature radius penalty.
Ressoning: The 25% cap penalty was an attempt to prevent people from permarunning the MWD and being mister "Can't catch me". We all know how that turned out. Also this nerfed the ships abilaty with mwds to tank or use other items, which only further pushed people to get more speed since it was their 1 and only defencive option. So now you can perma run the MWD again but we still don't want you to just obit the guy going at ludicrius speed tackling him and killing him so the agilaty nerf comes in. Not to mentiont hat MWDs only push you forward like warp drives meanign more power in one direction only. Un able to orbit at speed with means your target has a fighting chance and for you beign able to perma run the mwd is useless your tank or EW come much more handy. And removing the signature penalty is so that frigile small ships like interceptors can reacht heir targets more easyly, and scouts ahve a better chance of making it back to the gate ECT.
For AB: 1: Add an agilati Bonnus 2: Add a resit to stasis webbifiers. (So That a web AB and MWD have the same speed)
Reason: If your instaling an AB system it would be good to install it on your manevering thrusters as well. Not to mention to use thrust differential ont he main engines to increase turning power. And to resit webbers tot he point were if webbeb you no worst off then someone with a MWD by going at the same speed. Hell you'll be better off since youll have more cap for your tank possibly giving you that precious second you needed to jump out or escape. 0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents |
EadTaes
Minmatar BLACKWATER INDUSTRIAL Red Dawn Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 23:02:00 -
[3544]
I like it and I like the reasoning. How ever here is a suggestion to make aftherburners viable VS MWDs.
First have warp scramblers not affect MWDs. I know it sounds liek ti should stopt hem but this must not happen since mwds will truely become useless since ships that do not fit a scrambler are few and far appart.
For MWD: 1: Remove the 25% cap ammoun't penalty. 2: Add a significant agilaty lost while the mwd is active. (So that mainting an orbit lower then 24km is not possible) 3: If possible remove the or reduce the signature radius penalty.
Ressoning: The 25% cap penalty was an attempt to prevent people from permarunning the MWD and being mister "Can't catch me". We all know how that turned out. Also this nerfed the ships abilaty with mwds to tank or use other items, which only further pushed people to get more speed since it was their 1 and only defencive option. So now you can perma run the MWD again but we still don't want you to just obit the guy going at ludicrius speed tackling him and killing him so the agilaty nerf comes in. Not to mentiont hat MWDs only push you forward like warp drives meanign more power in one direction only. Un able to orbit at speed with means your target has a fighting chance and for you beign able to perma run the mwd is useless your tank or EW come much more handy. And removing the signature penalty is so that frigile small ships like interceptors can reacht heir targets more easyly, and scouts ahve a better chance of making it back to the gate ECT.
For AB: 1: Add an agilati Bonnus 2: Add a resit to stasis webbifiers. (So That a web AB and MWD have the same speed)
Reason: If your instaling an AB system it would be good to install it on your manevering thrusters as well. Not to mention to use thrust differential ont he main engines to increase turning power. And to resit webbers tot he point were if webbeb you no worst off then someone with a MWD by going at the same speed. Hell you'll be better off since youll have more cap for your tank possibly giving you that precious second you needed to jump out or escape. 0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:36:00 -
[3545]
Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser
FRIGANK |
Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:36:00 -
[3546]
Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser - FRIGANK |
Reiaandra Ilin
Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 01:11:00 -
[3547]
Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
|
Reiaandra Ilin
Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 01:11:00 -
[3548]
Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:02:00 -
[3549]
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:02:00 -
[3550]
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
|
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:11:00 -
[3551]
Edited by: Haakelen on 01/08/2008 03:12:27
Originally by: Stab Wounds You ever heard of committing to a fight?
Station Hugging. POS hugging. Jump-and-log. Fix those and we'll talk. As well, any ship can stay aligned and warp out the second enemies find it.
Not that you'd know anything about POSes or docking games or jump bridges, or anything else that happens in 0.0, because you are yet another of the Caldari Militia legion of whiners.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising Brotherhood of Nod.
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:11:00 -
[3552]
Edited by: Haakelen on 01/08/2008 03:12:27
Originally by: Stab Wounds You ever heard of committing to a fight?
Station Hugging. POS hugging. Jump-and-log. Fix those and we'll talk. As well, any ship can stay aligned and warp out the second enemies find it.
Not that you'd know anything about POSes or docking games or jump bridges, or anything else that happens in 0.0, because you are yet another of the Caldari Militia legion of whiners.
|
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:37:00 -
[3553]
Edited by: Abrynn on 01/08/2008 04:00:48 Edited by: Abrynn on 01/08/2008 03:41:21 Ok so i here lots of blah blah but if you guys havent noticed CCP is trying to bury this dev blog
However i have to say im still really annoyed at the ******ed noobs/caldari pilots because
1. caldari ones complaining you have the easiest race in the game u dont need to worry about transversal velocity or managing cap exept to run your booster just f1 - f8 and sit there so nuthin from u
2. noobs do some skill training and then we will talk
i have tried tanking the vaga its garbage nuthin compaired to a zealot/ishtar ect. If you wanna complain about nano gangs instead of flying that t1 BS how about you train up so u can fly sumthing that might be able to counter them. Asbo's are amazing as are zealots. Nano ships can only go after certain ships. So I'm still trying to figure out why everyone complains so much if you dont like it SKILL UP to fix it the fact that CCP has forgotten that its the higher skill based ppl that have kept this game going ****es me off as a matter of fact im starting to feel like this nerf online game isnt worth the money i pay every month and i know alot of other mini pilots feel the same. and before u noobs start going off im an all t2 pilot have bs 5 blah blah blah starting cap training i have 2 1/2 yrs into this game add up the RL money thats $809 not including computers and time invested in training/isk so yeah i think i have a right to be ****ed this is my race being nerfed and if you guys payed any attention you would notice its gonna affect all races exept the caldari missile spam which btw is the most played race.
ok im done on my rant for now but this is the crapiest idea yet CCP i hope you havent forgotten who pays your bills - Cause its the players that have been here a long time that have kept this going and made it possible for the noobs to be here in the first place..........
EDIT - O yeah i also wanted to add there is more to being a good nano pilot than point and click there's alot of micro management cause in a vaga with your MWD on you arent hitting shit cause they track like ass and lets not for get cap issues yes folks if your running a MWD you have cap issues OMG RTFM - I know lots of ppl that get into nano's of any race and die so its not as easy as it looks -
and lets not just talk about Mini ships cause this affects all races that use an MWD including BS's
EDIT- and another thing if you dont even know how to get on the test server then dont bother posting about shit you have no clue about
|
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:37:00 -
[3554]
Edited by: Abrynn on 01/08/2008 04:00:48 Edited by: Abrynn on 01/08/2008 03:41:21 Ok so i here lots of blah blah but if you guys havent noticed CCP is trying to bury this dev blog
However i have to say im still really annoyed at the ******ed noobs/caldari pilots because
1. caldari ones complaining you have the easiest race in the game u dont need to worry about transversal velocity or managing cap exept to run your booster just f1 - f8 and sit there so nuthin from u
2. noobs do some skill training and then we will talk
i have tried tanking the vaga its garbage nuthin compaired to a zealot/ishtar ect. If you wanna complain about nano gangs instead of flying that t1 BS how about you train up so u can fly sumthing that might be able to counter them. Asbo's are amazing as are zealots. Nano ships can only go after certain ships. So I'm still trying to figure out why everyone complains so much if you dont like it SKILL UP to fix it the fact that CCP has forgotten that its the higher skill based ppl that have kept this game going ****es me off as a matter of fact im starting to feel like this nerf online game isnt worth the money i pay every month and i know alot of other mini pilots feel the same. and before u noobs start going off im an all t2 pilot have bs 5 blah blah blah starting cap training i have 2 1/2 yrs into this game add up the RL money thats $809 not including computers and time invested in training/isk so yeah i think i have a right to be ****ed this is my race being nerfed and if you guys payed any attention you would notice its gonna affect all races exept the caldari missile spam which btw is the most played race.
ok im done on my rant for now but this is the crapiest idea yet CCP i hope you havent forgotten who pays your bills - Cause its the players that have been here a long time that have kept this going and made it possible for the noobs to be here in the first place..........
EDIT - O yeah i also wanted to add there is more to being a good nano pilot than point and click there's alot of micro management cause in a vaga with your MWD on you arent hitting shit cause they track like ass and lets not for get cap issues yes folks if your running a MWD you have cap issues OMG RTFM - I know lots of ppl that get into nano's of any race and die so its not as easy as it looks -
and lets not just talk about Mini ships cause this affects all races that use an MWD including BS's
EDIT- and another thing if you dont even know how to get on the test server then dont bother posting about shit you have no clue about
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 04:47:00 -
[3555]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
Back right up there.
Attacking and killing things you can kill is what EVERY pvp pilot out there does. Why the hell would you swoop in to attack something that you knew would kick your ass ? Doesn't matter if its a vaga or a mega or an ibis, you avoid situations in which you will loose.
Also, the idea of commiting to a fight although very noble isn;t how the game works.
Log on traps are a perfect example of why commiting to a fight is tantamount to sticking your head on the chopping block. If the other guy isn't CERTAIN to smoke you when he arrives, he's pretty much certainly doing something else than just fighting for the sake of it.
Gate camping, a major source of dull evenings, a few kills and a lot of innsomnia, is hardly commitment to a fight, since if more reds show up than you can deal with you just warp. Fleet fights are not about commiting either, in fact they are entirely engineered so youd don't have to commit. ALL of the major PvP arenas are basically about not commiting, picking your fights and trying not to die.
Nano ships happen to be good at this. That makes them popular. However, I am still waiting for someone to show me a non-ishtar killmail from a nanoship that killed a pvp fitted bs solo.
If it takes two guys to kill you there almsot certainly isn't a problem with the ships, its just that eve rewards groups.
It it was 3 or more things, then you have NO right to complain. If a big enough blob of rifters showed up you'd still die.
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 04:47:00 -
[3556]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
Back right up there.
Attacking and killing things you can kill is what EVERY pvp pilot out there does. Why the hell would you swoop in to attack something that you knew would kick your ass ? Doesn't matter if its a vaga or a mega or an ibis, you avoid situations in which you will loose.
Also, the idea of commiting to a fight although very noble isn;t how the game works.
Log on traps are a perfect example of why commiting to a fight is tantamount to sticking your head on the chopping block. If the other guy isn't CERTAIN to smoke you when he arrives, he's pretty much certainly doing something else than just fighting for the sake of it.
Gate camping, a major source of dull evenings, a few kills and a lot of innsomnia, is hardly commitment to a fight, since if more reds show up than you can deal with you just warp. Fleet fights are not about commiting either, in fact they are entirely engineered so youd don't have to commit. ALL of the major PvP arenas are basically about not commiting, picking your fights and trying not to die.
Nano ships happen to be good at this. That makes them popular. However, I am still waiting for someone to show me a non-ishtar killmail from a nanoship that killed a pvp fitted bs solo.
If it takes two guys to kill you there almsot certainly isn't a problem with the ships, its just that eve rewards groups.
It it was 3 or more things, then you have NO right to complain. If a big enough blob of rifters showed up you'd still die.
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:15:00 -
[3557]
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:15:00 -
[3558]
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:25:00 -
[3559]
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser
way to illustrate exactly another issue, why the hell should an AF be more effective than a cruiser against say a BC? thats stupid, way to shoot yourself in the foot FOR the nerf
|
Tetsuo Hourai
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:25:00 -
[3560]
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser
way to illustrate exactly another issue, why the hell should an AF be more effective than a cruiser against say a BC? thats stupid, way to shoot yourself in the foot FOR the nerf
|
|
Semkhet
Spartan Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:57:00 -
[3561]
Having flown nanoships since 2005 and coped with the multiple nerfs over time that hampered speed (is there any area of EvE which has been so repeatedly nerfed to start with ?), I sometimes wonder if the Devs actually play this game...
Drones: no problem, you can make them fly at over 10 Km/sec if you want. Guns: no tracking problem on small ships, sniper BS + support can decimate nanos, and med range BS supported by tracking links are effective also. EW & neuts: no tracking required.
So this leaves us only with two problems:
A) Missiles. Always said that their speed should be increased. B) Webs: All what they need is a good falloff, around 200%. That way, a few nanos can't decimate anymore a blob which heavily outnumbers them since stacking webs on the same target will significantly reduce the nano's speed, while a few slow ships will still fall prey of a small & competent nanogang.
And voila. But why make it simple when you can make things complicated ?
|
Semkhet
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 07:57:00 -
[3562]
Having flown nanoships since 2005 and coped with the multiple nerfs over time that hampered speed (is there any area of EvE which has been so repeatedly nerfed to start with ?), I sometimes wonder if the Devs actually play this game...
Drones: no problem, you can make them fly at over 10 Km/sec if you want. Guns: no tracking problem on small ships, sniper BS + support can decimate nanos, and med range BS supported by tracking links are effective also. EW & neuts: no tracking required.
So this leaves us only with two problems:
A) Missiles. Always said that their speed should be increased. B) Webs: All what they need is a good falloff, around 200%. That way, a few nanos can't decimate anymore a blob which heavily outnumbers them since stacking webs on the same target will significantly reduce the nano's speed, while a few slow ships will still fall prey of a small & competent nanogang.
And voila. But why make it simple when you can make things complicated ?
|
Lysit Kaune
Minmatar Phoenix Division
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:05:00 -
[3563]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser
way to illustrate exactly another issue, why the hell should an AF be more effective than a cruiser against say a BC? thats stupid, way to shoot yourself in the foot FOR the nerf
It makes sense, traditionally and historically the battlecruiser was intended to be a cruiser hunting ship, with a little more armour than a standard cruiser, but much larger guns, it also allowed the battlecruiser to retain a little more speed and maneuverability to disengage from targets such as battleships (Which a typical cruiser would struggle to cause significant damage to due to smaller armaments).
Frigates, in history, have has many roles, such as scouts or more recently, anti air or anti submarine, and its unusual to see frigates involved in ship to ship combat, those that do employ long range missiles, akin to stealth bombers, or to deliver boarding parties or troops for shore landings, were there size and speed allows them to avoid enemy fire.
So for an assault frigate to be more effective against a BC than a cruiser, well maybe as far as surving the attack goes certainly.
|
Lysit Kaune
Minmatar Oddball Navy Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:05:00 -
[3564]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 01/08/2008 00:36:09 Aside from missiles being rather overpowered atm and interceptors being a little slow, this is by far the best thing to happen to EVE. Smaller ships are ridiculously fun to fly now that scrams are amazing and webs are weaker A well tanked AF now has a better chance vs larger targets than a cruiser
way to illustrate exactly another issue, why the hell should an AF be more effective than a cruiser against say a BC? thats stupid, way to shoot yourself in the foot FOR the nerf
It makes sense, traditionally and historically the battlecruiser was intended to be a cruiser hunting ship, with a little more armour than a standard cruiser, but much larger guns, it also allowed the battlecruiser to retain a little more speed and maneuverability to disengage from targets such as battleships (Which a typical cruiser would struggle to cause significant damage to due to smaller armaments).
Frigates, in history, have has many roles, such as scouts or more recently, anti air or anti submarine, and its unusual to see frigates involved in ship to ship combat, those that do employ long range missiles, akin to stealth bombers, or to deliver boarding parties or troops for shore landings, were there size and speed allows them to avoid enemy fire.
So for an assault frigate to be more effective against a BC than a cruiser, well maybe as far as surving the attack goes certainly.
|
Neal Cassady
Mutually Assured Distraction
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:34:00 -
[3565]
hello everyone,
notwithstanding your lame reference to space balls and the smarmy tone of your post (taketh away my nanos), you guys at ccp seem to go out of your way to come across as jackasses.
when my friend who flew gallente told me i would be next, i laughed it off. i'm not laughing now. as is becoming more common, a reactionary response to forum whiners has changed this game for the worse. nanos have already been nerfed, and these sweeping changes to fundamental mechanics are unwarranted and will have unintended consequences.
Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP.
anyone who has ever busted a mission will tell you they already are. i keep a tech 2 afterburner in the cargo hold of every one of my ships in case a mission gets busted. also, nerfing mwd's does not boost ab's. it just makes the game suck. speed is the only component of the game which requires constant user input and considerable skill.
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
You did not address this point at all in your entire post. as a pilot who has specialized in these tactics, to not have you mention hit and run warfare in your post while mentioning it as a goal seems irresponsible. did you proofread your post? did you accidentally cut out a paragraph? or perhaps you're just lazy. that must be it, because this whole nerf strikes me as lazy, addressing the symptoms rather than the cause of the problems in eve.
You guys are clowns. Go nerf a sig.
cassady
|
Neal Cassady
Mutually Assured Distraction
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:34:00 -
[3566]
hello everyone,
notwithstanding your lame reference to space balls and the smarmy tone of your post (taketh away my nanos), you guys at ccp seem to go out of your way to come across as jackasses.
when my friend who flew gallente told me i would be next, i laughed it off. i'm not laughing now. as is becoming more common, a reactionary response to forum whiners has changed this game for the worse. nanos have already been nerfed, and these sweeping changes to fundamental mechanics are unwarranted and will have unintended consequences.
Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP.
anyone who has ever busted a mission will tell you they already are. i keep a tech 2 afterburner in the cargo hold of every one of my ships in case a mission gets busted. also, nerfing mwd's does not boost ab's. it just makes the game suck. speed is the only component of the game which requires constant user input and considerable skill.
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
You did not address this point at all in your entire post. as a pilot who has specialized in these tactics, to not have you mention hit and run warfare in your post while mentioning it as a goal seems irresponsible. did you proofread your post? did you accidentally cut out a paragraph? or perhaps you're just lazy. that must be it, because this whole nerf strikes me as lazy, addressing the symptoms rather than the cause of the problems in eve.
You guys are clowns. Go nerf a sig.
cassady
|
CliveMerric
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:46:00 -
[3567]
hmm i keep checking this dev blog to see if they are listening to the massive rants about how this is a terrible idea. I think this could be good, however ccp needs to do this in steps or gradually, like rebalancing MWD then tweaking other things. IMO the massive changes of the 3 most used mods in the game could be very damaging to PVP and the game in general, i mean who dosent use webs scram MWD on every ship they pvp in? CCP please take a close look at this issue. It would be nice for you to post at least what you are thinking about this new change, and put some more thought in to changing the entire game than just 1 meeting. SWG anyone?
|
CliveMerric
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 08:46:00 -
[3568]
hmm i keep checking this dev blog to see if they are listening to the massive rants about how this is a terrible idea. I think this could be good, however ccp needs to do this in steps or gradually, like rebalancing MWD then tweaking other things. IMO the massive changes of the 3 most used mods in the game could be very damaging to PVP and the game in general, i mean who dosent use webs scram MWD on every ship they pvp in? CCP please take a close look at this issue. It would be nice for you to post at least what you are thinking about this new change, and put some more thought in to changing the entire game than just 1 meeting. SWG anyone? Clives BPC shop, Great deals!! |
King Hopy
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 10:22:00 -
[3569]
If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
|
King Hopy
Interstellar eXodus Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 10:22:00 -
[3570]
If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
|
|
RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 10:25:00 -
[3571]
Originally by: CliveMerric hmm i keep checking this dev blog to see if they are listening to the massive rants about how this is a terrible idea.
and see This forum for more info -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
|
RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 10:25:00 -
[3572]
Originally by: CliveMerric hmm i keep checking this dev blog to see if they are listening to the massive rants about how this is a terrible idea.
and see This forum for more info -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
|
Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 11:24:00 -
[3573]
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Signed and i think too. Your dangerous words what you talking about, will be coming soon. The combat will be too static and the static combat need more man, and that will be increasing lag. Some Caldari peoples complained about it many times, the missiles cant hit the fast ship and not hit the target instantly. But now they can hit anything and if the tactics move to static and short range, that will be upsets the balances of power totally. The blastersboats and short ranged minmatar ships go to ruin. The other ships with AB will be totally unuseable against missile boats. The changes too drastic, went hudreds of peoples SP to ruin and unbalancing the game to one way. How can adapt the players for this ? They will use lot of caldari ships or they will go to fight with blob. This will make the game one-sided though, which will not be an entertainer.
|
Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 11:24:00 -
[3574]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 01/08/2008 11:52:14
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Signed and i think too. Your dangerous words what you talking about, will be coming soon. The combat will be too static and the static combat need more man, and that will be increasing lag. This changes broken the small groups, small corps power of military and they favour the big corps at which the big military force is. Some Caldari peoples complained about it many times, the missiles cant hit the fast ship and not hit the target instantly. But now they can hit anything and if the tactics move to static and short range, that will be upsets the balances of power totally. The blastersboats and short ranged minmatar ships go to ruin. The other ships with AB will be totally unuseable against missile boats. The changes too drastic, went hudreds of peoples SP to ruin and unbalancing the game to one way. How can adapt the players for this ? They will use lot of caldari ships or they will go to fight with blob. This will make the game one-sided though, which will not be an entertainer.
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Cutesmile
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 11:30:00 -
[3575]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 01/08/2008 11:33:11
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Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:30:00 -
[3576]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 01/08/2008 11:33:11
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:53:00 -
[3577]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:53:36 Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:52:59
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Cya! Stuff this way please, no one cares that you might leave. This change will bring people BACK to the game, just because you CRY that you can't go as fast and run away all the time like a *****.
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Wizzkidy
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:53:00 -
[3578]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:53:36 Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:52:59
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Cya! Stuff this way please, no one cares that you might leave. This change will bring people BACK to the game, just because you CRY that you can't go as fast and run away all the time like a *****.
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rafaman
Unsafe Flying Ops
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:56:00 -
[3579]
Originally by: malet We get stupid speeds becasue the game allows us to train skills specifically for it. The game also puts in place the modules that allow us to reach these speeds. Now CCP decide it`s time to move the goal posts again. Many of us nano pilots have spent months of training to facilitate the speeds people here are moaning about.
The ship setups sometimes run into the billions so we are and already have paid the price for speed. The problem here is as far as I see it, there are thousands of non nano pilots out there that cant be bothered to actually think to them selves "" how can I kill this guy "". Instead they get frustrated and die.
My charachter is fully specced when it comes to speed and can hit extreme speeds in both the vaga and the ceptor. Why? because I invested nearly a year of training time making sure thats what I could do. If the newer players cant catch me then is that really my fault?
This game is soon going to be a case of warp press F1-F7 and thats it.
What about the command ship pilots that have spent the time training all the skirmish mods etc for speed gangs to benefit ftrom their bonuses. Again a complete waste of time and isk.
CCP - As far as I`m concerned with this nerf you will be effectivley shunning the older player base,, that might I remind you have been subscribing to you for years and pay your wages!!, in favour of moans and groans from players that cannot think for themselves. Nano gangs can be countered as the tools are already there to do it. The rapier or huggin will make 99% of nano pilots think twice about engaging. Neuts also will make a run for the hills. So I truly fail to see how you feel the game is unbalanced. If so then what are you going to do about the thousands of players that have trained all the nav skills hac 5 etc purely to hit these speeds? and now you just throw us aside.
You can keep my subsciption if this goes through as the game will go down hill faster than the speed a nano ship can ever go.
/signed!
And for the record I'm not a nano pilot. I do mostly BS, HAC and Command these days.
I'm a bit tired of getting my game experience affected by some guy that decided to start doing changes in the name of something.
Since this new guy came to the scene that we have seen some improvements but at the cost of nefr after nerf. Instead of adding new options to the game, like for example creating new ships or modules to counter nanos for instance, at a cost or isk and training time of course, this guy decides its best to nerf away.
When some players invested a lot of time and isk to train for the EOS, someone came along and decided that it was overpowered... and instead of providing other command ships with the same level of power, EOS got a nerf. Some told that it didnt made any sense that a command ship like the EOS could do more damage than a BS. WTF? EOS costs much more than a BS to buy and to fit properly and the insurance only covers a fraction of that. Plus to that, the skills necessary to pilot a EOS are erally expensive and takes up a lot of time. Stuill the nerf was done. Then came the Drones nerf. Then came the EM resistance nerf. Before that came the CPU nerf on EAN T2.
Over and over again I have seen for the last year my game experience getting worst and worst. New ships where added that does not serve any porpuse. Black Ops, Marauders... that cost huge amounts of money and have huge issues.
This game is going down hill really fast for some time now. I'm sure the competition, including some new games comming to the scene, will apreciate this.
CCP - Give us new stuff to play with. Dont mess with the way we play the game like this. Make us tools to counter nanos. Then make new tools for nanos, that will cost them more to use it. Then make new tools to counter that. and so on. Its called evolution.
Cheers
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rafaman
Unsafe Flying Ops Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:56:00 -
[3580]
Originally by: malet We get stupid speeds becasue the game allows us to train skills specifically for it. The game also puts in place the modules that allow us to reach these speeds. Now CCP decide it`s time to move the goal posts again. Many of us nano pilots have spent months of training to facilitate the speeds people here are moaning about.
The ship setups sometimes run into the billions so we are and already have paid the price for speed. The problem here is as far as I see it, there are thousands of non nano pilots out there that cant be bothered to actually think to them selves "" how can I kill this guy "". Instead they get frustrated and die.
My charachter is fully specced when it comes to speed and can hit extreme speeds in both the vaga and the ceptor. Why? because I invested nearly a year of training time making sure thats what I could do. If the newer players cant catch me then is that really my fault?
This game is soon going to be a case of warp press F1-F7 and thats it.
What about the command ship pilots that have spent the time training all the skirmish mods etc for speed gangs to benefit ftrom their bonuses. Again a complete waste of time and isk.
CCP - As far as I`m concerned with this nerf you will be effectivley shunning the older player base,, that might I remind you have been subscribing to you for years and pay your wages!!, in favour of moans and groans from players that cannot think for themselves. Nano gangs can be countered as the tools are already there to do it. The rapier or huggin will make 99% of nano pilots think twice about engaging. Neuts also will make a run for the hills. So I truly fail to see how you feel the game is unbalanced. If so then what are you going to do about the thousands of players that have trained all the nav skills hac 5 etc purely to hit these speeds? and now you just throw us aside.
You can keep my subsciption if this goes through as the game will go down hill faster than the speed a nano ship can ever go.
/signed!
And for the record I'm not a nano pilot. I do mostly BS, HAC and Command these days.
I'm a bit tired of getting my game experience affected by some guy that decided to start doing changes in the name of something.
Since this new guy came to the scene that we have seen some improvements but at the cost of nefr after nerf. Instead of adding new options to the game, like for example creating new ships or modules to counter nanos for instance, at a cost or isk and training time of course, this guy decides its best to nerf away.
When some players invested a lot of time and isk to train for the EOS, someone came along and decided that it was overpowered... and instead of providing other command ships with the same level of power, EOS got a nerf. Some told that it didnt made any sense that a command ship like the EOS could do more damage than a BS. WTF? EOS costs much more than a BS to buy and to fit properly and the insurance only covers a fraction of that. Plus to that, the skills necessary to pilot a EOS are erally expensive and takes up a lot of time. Stuill the nerf was done. Then came the Drones nerf. Then came the EM resistance nerf. Before that came the CPU nerf on EAN T2.
Over and over again I have seen for the last year my game experience getting worst and worst. New ships where added that does not serve any porpuse. Black Ops, Marauders... that cost huge amounts of money and have huge issues.
This game is going down hill really fast for some time now. I'm sure the competition, including some new games comming to the scene, will apreciate this.
CCP - Give us new stuff to play with. Dont mess with the way we play the game like this. Make us tools to counter nanos. Then make new tools for nanos, that will cost them more to use it. Then make new tools to counter that. and so on. Its called evolution.
Cheers
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Ferenc Puskas
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:57:00 -
[3581]
Originally by: Wizzkidy
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
So everybody has to suffer, even if the most I usually go in my nano ishtar is 4.5km/s with gang bonuses and one Polycarbon, because of a select few people going ludicrous speeds. What they could do is just reduce polies bonus, reduce snakes bonus, reduce gang bonuses and then a mild reduction to overdrives and nanofibers. Don't nerf the whole assembly line of speed factors cause someone decides they can go 30km/s in an interceptor and break the physics engine. Plus in the thread all those factors combined is a very very rare situation.
So if you reduce most of the top end of factors you have stopped ludicrous speeds without changing the inherent feel of the game and reducing HACs to the once were cool scrapheap. If Vagas are overpowered and annoying people so much simply increase the sig radius of LSE so they are easier to hit as most Vagas fit two nowadays.
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Ferenc Puskas
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:57:00 -
[3582]
Originally by: Wizzkidy
someone is getting annoyed that his FOTM is being nerfed, this speedthing "bringing in line" has been well known for ages now, it has nothing to do with the people that moan about nano's its because the game is broken with pilots like yourself getting stupid speeds when u should not be able to.
So everybody has to suffer, even if the most I usually go in my nano ishtar is 4.5km/s with gang bonuses and one Polycarbon, because of a select few people going ludicrous speeds. What they could do is just reduce polies bonus, reduce snakes bonus, reduce gang bonuses and then a mild reduction to overdrives and nanofibers. Don't nerf the whole assembly line of speed factors cause someone decides they can go 30km/s in an interceptor and break the physics engine. Plus in the thread all those factors combined is a very very rare situation.
So if you reduce most of the top end of factors you have stopped ludicrous speeds without changing the inherent feel of the game and reducing HACs to the once were cool scrapheap. If Vagas are overpowered and annoying people so much simply increase the sig radius of LSE so they are easier to hit as most Vagas fit two nowadays.
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Doctorah
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:06:00 -
[3583]
CCP, I hope all your cars and bikes are nerfed to 20 Km/hour |
Doctorah
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:06:00 -
[3584]
CCP, I hope all your cars and bikes are nerfed to 20 Km/hour |
Cutesmile
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:33:00 -
[3585]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 01/08/2008 12:37:54
Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:53:36 Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:52:59
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Cya! Stuff this way please, no one cares that you might leave. This change will bring people BACK to the game, just because you CRY that you can't go as fast and run away all the time like a *****.
What do you talk about it ? This change will players bring back to the game ? LOL Your words is nonsense. Lot of peoples will leave the game, when they will see, how many cash and SP of them go to ruin and long years of work too. I know the game need little speed balancing, but this changes is too aggresive, and points into a bad direction. CCP nerfing over 10 items or ships because of a problem. Ridiculous
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Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:33:00 -
[3586]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 01/08/2008 12:37:54
Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:53:36 Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 11:52:59
Originally by: King Hopy If this nerf happens as planned I might have to reconsider paying for my four accounts. At the moment speed is the only counter to massive blobs and the only way of fighting that needs skill. I agree there should be a significant difference between the speed of ship classes and races but some of these nerfs go way too far.
Cya! Stuff this way please, no one cares that you might leave. This change will bring people BACK to the game, just because you CRY that you can't go as fast and run away all the time like a *****.
What do you talk about it ? This change will players bring back to the game ? LOL Your words is nonsense. Lot of peoples will leave the game, when they will see, how many cash and SP of them go to ruin and long years of work too. I know the game need little speed balancing, but this changes is too aggresive, and points into a bad direction. CCP nerfing over 10 items or ships because of a problem. Ridiculous
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:42:00 -
[3587]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
Exactly, you'll have a choice between using a long range scram to get the initial tackle or using the short range scram if you have a tackler buddy along with you. The short range scram means you can be sure the enemy won't mwd away but the long range one means you can get the initial tackle. For fleet action, that short range scram is going to be extremely useful.
You can argue that using the long range scram isn't viable as when you get close enough to use your blasters, the enemy can shut off your mwd with a short range scram an escape. However, that won't let them escape because they have to stay within 7.5km range (and thus within your blaster range) to keep your mwd shut off. If they try to escape using their MWD, yours will reactivate once the enemy gets over 7.5km from you and you'll still have your 20km scram on them. You can resume chasing them immediately.
If you don't want to use the short range scram, just don't. Using a 20km scram will mean you'll have to chase your enemy with his MWD still active, but that still puts you on equal footing as it does right now. Very little will actually be changed.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:42:00 -
[3588]
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
Exactly, you'll have a choice between using a long range scram to get the initial tackle or using the short range scram if you have a tackler buddy along with you. The short range scram means you can be sure the enemy won't mwd away but the long range one means you can get the initial tackle. For fleet action, that short range scram is going to be extremely useful.
You can argue that using the long range scram isn't viable as when you get close enough to use your blasters, the enemy can shut off your mwd with a short range scram an escape. However, that won't let them escape because they have to stay within 7.5km range (and thus within your blaster range) to keep your mwd shut off. If they try to escape using their MWD, yours will reactivate once the enemy gets over 7.5km from you and you'll still have your 20km scram on them. You can resume chasing them immediately.
If you don't want to use the short range scram, just don't. Using a 20km scram will mean you'll have to chase your enemy with his MWD still active, but that still puts you on equal footing as it does right now. Very little will actually be changed.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:08:00 -
[3589]
And others have left the game already because it became a gang of Nano***s, wherevery has to sit in a Capital Ship, or a Nanoship or a specific designed Anti-Nanoship.
The Nerf does not happen because some less skilled players whined on the forums. It happens while CCP checked their database and noticed the drastic increase of Nanoships and that they circumvent game mechanics (explosion-velocitc, tracking, even limitations in CPU and PG are less then an issue when fitting Nanos).
I think I will play a short sad tune on a really small (Nano)Violin for you.
Be so kind to contract me your stuff and do not let the door hit you on your way out. Thanks.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:08:00 -
[3590]
And others have left the game already because it became a gang of Nano***s, wherevery has to sit in a Capital Ship, or a Nanoship or a specific designed Anti-Nanoship.
The Nerf does not happen because some less skilled players whined on the forums. It happens while CCP checked their database and noticed the drastic increase of Nanoships and that they circumvent game mechanics (explosion-velocitc, tracking, even limitations in CPU and PG are less then an issue when fitting Nanos).
I think I will play a short sad tune on a really small (Nano)Violin for you.
Be so kind to contract me your stuff and do not let the door hit you on your way out. Thanks.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:41:00 -
[3591]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon And others have left the game already because it became a gang of Nano***s, wherevery has to sit in a Capital Ship, or a Nanoship or a specific designed Anti-Nanoship.
The Nerf does not happen because some less skilled players whined on the forums........
I think I will play a short sad tune on a really small (Nano)Violin for you.
Be so kind to contract me your stuff and do not let the door hit you on your way out. Thanks.
Said a pilot who killed many skilled players with carrier. LOL http://www.eve-ho.de/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=14766&view=ships_weapons Dont hope, when this pilots leave the game you will never get they stuffs, because you are too unskilled for them.But sont worry you will play a nice Caldari Static online game. This unskilled peoples would be make this game to ruin.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:41:00 -
[3592]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon And others have left the game already because it became a gang of Nano***s, wherevery has to sit in a Capital Ship, or a Nanoship or a specific designed Anti-Nanoship.
The Nerf does not happen because some less skilled players whined on the forums........
I think I will play a short sad tune on a really small (Nano)Violin for you.
Be so kind to contract me your stuff and do not let the door hit you on your way out. Thanks.
Said a pilot who killed many skilled players with carrier. LOL http://www.eve-ho.de/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=14766&view=ships_weapons Dont hope, when this pilots leave the game you will never get they stuffs, because you are too unskilled for them.But sont worry you will play a nice Caldari Static online game. This unskilled peoples would be make this game to ruin.
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LVirus
GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:59:00 -
[3593]
It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
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LVirus
GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:59:00 -
[3594]
It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:19:00 -
[3595]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:19:46
Originally by: LVirus It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
Being limited to only a certain type of ship to stop a nano pilot is STUPID! People run too often in this game, jesus its hard enough just to get a 1 v 1 these days, good changes coming imo
Oh and guess what, they wont swap any implant you have because they never have! suck it up!
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Wizzkidy
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:19:00 -
[3596]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:19:46
Originally by: LVirus It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
Being limited to only a certain type of ship to stop a nano pilot is STUPID! People run too often in this game, jesus its hard enough just to get a 1 v 1 these days, good changes coming imo
Oh and guess what, they wont swap any implant you have because they never have! suck it up!
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:23:00 -
[3597]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 14:23:21
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Said a pilot who killed many skilled players with carrier. LOL http://www.eve-ho.de/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=14766&view=ships_weapons Dont hope, when this pilots leave the game you will never get they stuffs, because you are too unskilled for them.But sont worry you will play a nice Caldari Static online game. This unskilled peoples would be make this game to ruin.
Ah yes, the killboards are always dragged up when other arguments run out. FYI. Deviana is my main character and currently mostly used as a capital pilot (or to enjoy forum whinings)or in the past a Fleet BS Pilot.
My Gang PvP character: Tian Jade
Not entirely accurate since I do not post my kills there and not all victims have posted their losses. But it's all about Epeens, right?
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:23:00 -
[3598]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 14:23:21
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Said a pilot who killed many skilled players with carrier. LOL http://www.eve-ho.de/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=14766&view=ships_weapons Dont hope, when this pilots leave the game you will never get they stuffs, because you are too unskilled for them.But sont worry you will play a nice Caldari Static online game. This unskilled peoples would be make this game to ruin.
Ah yes, the killboards are always dragged up when other arguments run out. FYI. Deviana is my main character and currently mostly used as a capital pilot (or to enjoy forum whinings)or in the past a Fleet BS Pilot.
My Gang PvP character: Tian Jade
Not entirely accurate since I do not post my kills there and not all victims have posted their losses. But it's all about Epeens, right?
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:32:00 -
[3599]
Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:19:46
Originally by: LVirus It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
Being limited to only a certain type of ship to stop a nano pilot is STUPID! People run too often in this game, jesus its hard enough just to get a 1 v 1 these days, good changes coming imo
Oh and guess what, they wont swap any implant you have because they never have! suck it up!
Oh no, an another pilots who tell the truth, who bought his character and made two kills over two years ago in blob. Sit down or go home. http://dr.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Wizzkidy
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:32:00 -
[3600]
Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:19:46
Originally by: LVirus It's just sad that CCP is ready to nerf speed because of some whiners that don't know how to fit their ships. Theres nothing wrong if 3-4 nanoships kill a gang with 5-10 tards in drakes. If only people would learn how to fit their ships. A 3m blackbird can easily disable my 10b machariel and i cant shit about it. Damps, neutras, webs etc will make me run or die. I have seen my fair share of blob warfare and i hate it.
Oh and, if you really are going through with this nerf then i expect to see my snake set swapped to crystal or slave set and t2 poly rigs to t2 cap recharge rigs.
Being limited to only a certain type of ship to stop a nano pilot is STUPID! People run too often in this game, jesus its hard enough just to get a 1 v 1 these days, good changes coming imo
Oh and guess what, they wont swap any implant you have because they never have! suck it up!
Oh no, an another pilots who tell the truth, who bought his character and made two kills over two years ago in blob. Sit down or go home. http://dr.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Wizzkidy
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:40:00 -
[3601]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:41:55
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Oh no, an another pilots who tell the truth, who bought his character and made two kills over two years ago in blob. Sit down or go home. http://dr.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Wizzkidy
LOL, I might not be very active at the moment (RL stuff wedding and all that) but I can assure you that I have been. Also I started this game WITH this char in 2005 so STFU.
I think you need to adapt simple as that really :)
Oh and good augument for your side, since you must of IGNORED my whole post
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Wizzkidy
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:40:00 -
[3602]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2008 14:41:55
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Oh no, an another pilots who tell the truth, who bought his character and made two kills over two years ago in blob. Sit down or go home. http://dr.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Wizzkidy
LOL, I might not be very active at the moment (RL stuff wedding and all that) but I can assure you that I have been. Also I started this game WITH this char in 2005 so STFU.
I think you need to adapt simple as that really :)
Oh and good augument for your side, since you must of IGNORED my whole post
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:57:00 -
[3603]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon ... blabla ... But it's all about Epeens, right?
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:57:00 -
[3604]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon ... blabla ... But it's all about Epeens, right?
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:59:00 -
[3605]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
Back right up there.
Attacking and killing things you can kill is what EVERY pvp pilot out there does. Why the hell would you swoop in to attack something that you knew would kick your ass ? Doesn't matter if its a vaga or a mega or an ibis, you avoid situations in which you will loose.
Also, the idea of commiting to a fight although very noble isn;t how the game works.
Log on traps are a perfect example of why commiting to a fight is tantamount to sticking your head on the chopping block. If the other guy isn't CERTAIN to smoke you when he arrives, he's pretty much certainly doing something else than just fighting for the sake of it.
Gate camping, a major source of dull evenings, a few kills and a lot of innsomnia, is hardly commitment to a fight, since if more reds show up than you can deal with you just warp. Fleet fights are not about commiting either, in fact they are entirely engineered so youd don't have to commit. ALL of the major PvP arenas are basically about not commiting, picking your fights and trying not to die.
Nano ships happen to be good at this. That makes them popular. However, I am still waiting for someone to show me a non-ishtar killmail from a nanoship that killed a pvp fitted bs solo.
If it takes two guys to kill you there almsot certainly isn't a problem with the ships, its just that eve rewards groups.
It it was 3 or more things, then you have NO right to complain. If a big enough blob of rifters showed up you'd still die.
Its not that fact. Who cares about solo-ability of kills.
Look at any 00, non-fleet bs kill. Some large percentage of them are going to be from a gang of nano ships. They're popular because there's very little risk to them. And a group of 5+ can kill a solo bs very easily.
CCP is nerfing them because they dont have to commit to a fight and they're the de-facto choice for pvp. There's very little argument for that, its either nano or get out. CCP wants variety and that cant exist when every roaming gang fits poly's. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:59:00 -
[3606]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51 this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:
A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM! a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.
not one step backwards comrades.
___
seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?
OH wait I know! you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.
You ever heard of committing to a fight? But all you nanofail pilots do is attack and kill the weak and run when someone of equal skill comes your way. CCP wants us to commit to fights not run away. They really should rethink speed so most ships have to commit to a fight. IMO Snipers and ECM aren't in the spirit of the game.
Back right up there.
Attacking and killing things you can kill is what EVERY pvp pilot out there does. Why the hell would you swoop in to attack something that you knew would kick your ass ? Doesn't matter if its a vaga or a mega or an ibis, you avoid situations in which you will loose.
Also, the idea of commiting to a fight although very noble isn;t how the game works.
Log on traps are a perfect example of why commiting to a fight is tantamount to sticking your head on the chopping block. If the other guy isn't CERTAIN to smoke you when he arrives, he's pretty much certainly doing something else than just fighting for the sake of it.
Gate camping, a major source of dull evenings, a few kills and a lot of innsomnia, is hardly commitment to a fight, since if more reds show up than you can deal with you just warp. Fleet fights are not about commiting either, in fact they are entirely engineered so youd don't have to commit. ALL of the major PvP arenas are basically about not commiting, picking your fights and trying not to die.
Nano ships happen to be good at this. That makes them popular. However, I am still waiting for someone to show me a non-ishtar killmail from a nanoship that killed a pvp fitted bs solo.
If it takes two guys to kill you there almsot certainly isn't a problem with the ships, its just that eve rewards groups.
It it was 3 or more things, then you have NO right to complain. If a big enough blob of rifters showed up you'd still die.
Its not that fact. Who cares about solo-ability of kills.
Look at any 00, non-fleet bs kill. Some large percentage of them are going to be from a gang of nano ships. They're popular because there's very little risk to them. And a group of 5+ can kill a solo bs very easily.
CCP is nerfing them because they dont have to commit to a fight and they're the de-facto choice for pvp. There's very little argument for that, its either nano or get out. CCP wants variety and that cant exist when every roaming gang fits poly's. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:11:00 -
[3607]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Look at any 00, non-fleet bs kill. Some large percentage of them are going to be from a gang of nano ships. They're popular because there's very little risk to them. And a group of 5+ can kill a solo bs very easily.
CCP is nerfing them because they dont have to commit to a fight and they're the de-facto choice for pvp. There's very little argument for that, its either nano or get out. CCP wants variety and that cant exist when every roaming gang fits poly's.
LOL. One long range tackler and 2 or 3 stealth bomber can kill a solo BS too. What talk about it ? Nerf all ship who can blow up a solo BS ? Use your mind.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:11:00 -
[3608]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Look at any 00, non-fleet bs kill. Some large percentage of them are going to be from a gang of nano ships. They're popular because there's very little risk to them. And a group of 5+ can kill a solo bs very easily.
CCP is nerfing them because they dont have to commit to a fight and they're the de-facto choice for pvp. There's very little argument for that, its either nano or get out. CCP wants variety and that cant exist when every roaming gang fits poly's.
LOL. One long range tackler and 2 or 3 stealth bomber can kill a solo BS too. What talk about it ? Nerf all ship who can blow up a solo BS ? Use your mind.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:16:00 -
[3609]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 15:16:20
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
Wrong again.
I have enough experience to form my own opinion and my arguments stands. If you think the Nano-Nerf will be the end of PvP you may leave the game.
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:16:00 -
[3610]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 15:16:20
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
Wrong again.
I have enough experience to form my own opinion and my arguments stands. If you think the Nano-Nerf will be the end of PvP you may leave the game.
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:29:00 -
[3611]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 01/08/2008 15:31:35
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 15:16:20
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
Wrong again.
I have enough experience to form my own opinion and my arguments stands. If you think the Nano-Nerf will be the end of PvP you may leave the game.
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
Just read and you will get the answer.
The combat will be too static and the static combat need more man, and that will be increasing lag. This changes broken the small groups, small corps power of military and they favour the big corps at which the big military force is. Some Caldari peoples complained about it many times, the missiles cant hit the fast ship and not hit the target instantly. But now they can hit anything and if the tactics move to static and short range, that will be upsets the balances of power totally. The blastersboats and short ranged minmatar ships go to ruin. The other ships with AB will be totally unuseable against missile boats. The changes too drastic, went hudreds of peoples SP to ruin and unbalancing the game to one way. How can adapt the players for this ? They will use lot of caldari ships or they will go to fight with blob. This will make the game one-sided though, which will not be an entertainer.
I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not. You will cry for cloak,for crystal set,for huge armors and etc. Cry for everything when experted pvpers come and kill again. And next nerf will coming and make the game worster and worster. Not need more thing just an another space MMO (Jumpgate evolution or Black Prophecy)and the great,nice EVE goes to trouble, because the incompetent players always cried for something.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:29:00 -
[3612]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 01/08/2008 15:42:05
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 15:16:20
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
No, it's not all about E-peens. Just all about how to thinking an incompetent pvpers, who unexperienced and guess how to work pvp. (called whining) U dont wanna tell for the experienced players, which is the right choice in the game. CCP turning wrong way with this idiotic nerfbait, "fix one thing and nerf over ten others"
Wrong again.
I have enough experience to form my own opinion and my arguments stands. If you think the Nano-Nerf will be the end of PvP you may leave the game.
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
Just read and you will get the answer.
The combat will be too static and the static combat need more man, and that will be increasing lag. This changes broken the small groups, small corps power of military and they favour the big corps at which the big military force is. Some Caldari peoples complained about it many times, the missiles cant hit the fast ship and not hit the target instantly. But now they can hit anything and if the tactics move to static and short range, that will be upsets the balances of power totally. The blastersboats and short ranged minmatar ships go to ruin. The other ships with AB will be totally unuseable against missile boats. The changes too drastic, went hudreds of peoples SP to ruin and unbalancing the game to one way. How can adapt the players for this ? They will use lot of caldari ships or they will go to fight with blob. This will make the game one-sided though, which will not be an entertainer.
I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not. You will cry for cloak,for crystal set,for huge armors and etc. Cry for everything when experted pvpers come and kill again. And next nerf will coming and make the game worster and worster. Not need more thing just an another space MMO (Jumpgate evolution or Black Prophecy)and the great,nice EVE goes to trouble, because the incompetent players always cried for something. And an other word, you wrote for me. Your character 3 years old, why cant do adapt against nanoships ? Why cant using your smart mind ? Just few thing need if u want to kill them. Rapier or Huginn or web or neutraliser, maybe few sentry drones enough for you. The game have many choice against nanoships, but you and the whiners against the nanos, not enough smart.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:36:00 -
[3613]
To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:36:00 -
[3614]
To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:00:00 -
[3615]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 16:00:28
Quote: I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not.
As I said, I have adapted. But from my point of view, EVE is a simulation of spaceships, not Counterstrike and the whole nano-craze is unintended use, or may I say abuse of a gamemechanic.
When Nano-Hacs are outrunning everything, even small ships that are designed to go fast, then there is something wrong with the game mechanic. I read month ago, that the Devs do not like the ludicrous speed that some ships achieve. That a Nerf in one way or another would be incoming was really obvious.
I do not think the nerf will be the final word on balancing. For example I would like to see that shield HP boosting modules (extenders) do not increase the amount of HP that regenerate in a second. Many script using modules like sensor dampener and tracking computer could use a little boost. But that is another story for another thread.
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:00:00 -
[3616]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 16:00:28
Quote: I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not.
As I said, I have adapted. But from my point of view, EVE is a simulation of spaceships, not Counterstrike and the whole nano-craze is unintended use, or may I say abuse of a gamemechanic.
When Nano-Hacs are outrunning everything, even small ships that are designed to go fast, then there is something wrong with the game mechanic. I read month ago, that the Devs do not like the ludicrous speed that some ships achieve. That a Nerf in one way or another would be incoming was really obvious.
I do not think the nerf will be the final word on balancing. For example I would like to see that shield HP boosting modules (extenders) do not increase the amount of HP that regenerate in a second. Many script using modules like sensor dampener and tracking computer could use a little boost. But that is another story for another thread.
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
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Jallem Sims
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:14:00 -
[3617]
this op fails to deliever... never made 150 pages. means its not a real issue tbh.
however, you all whined at each other for whining at each other it was epic fun |
Jallem Sims
Minmatar Wyverns of Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:14:00 -
[3618]
this op fails to deliever... never made 150 pages. means its not a real issue tbh.
however, you all whined at each other for whining at each other it was epic fun |
Starfinder
Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:37:00 -
[3619]
I think this speed balancing is greatly needed and long overdue. Pilots should not be invulnerable unless they get stupid. Nano'ers talk about how Rapiers, Huginns and neut ships can easily counter them, but, of course they would never engage a gang with many of those ships. They would just run away or log. With the current insane speeds you can't even trap them in a bubble.
I am concerned about what this will do to blaster boats and Minmatar recons though. I suggest the following. Give blaster boats a boost in base speed and tracking. Give the ships with a current webber range bonus an additional webber effectiveness bonus. 5% per level?
Also, people are going to run back to the gate at gate camps with the webber nerf.. How about webber bubbles to help prevent that?
Thanks.
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Starfinder
Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:37:00 -
[3620]
I think this speed balancing is greatly needed and long overdue. Pilots should not be invulnerable unless they get stupid. Nano'ers talk about how Rapiers, Huginns and neut ships can easily counter them, but, of course they would never engage a gang with many of those ships. They would just run away or log. With the current insane speeds you can't even trap them in a bubble.
I am concerned about what this will do to blaster boats and Minmatar recons though. I suggest the following. Give blaster boats a boost in base speed and tracking. Give the ships with a current webber range bonus an additional webber effectiveness bonus. 5% per level?
Also, people are going to run back to the gate at gate camps with the webber nerf.. How about webber bubbles to help prevent that?
Thanks.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:39:00 -
[3621]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 01/08/2008 16:39:22
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 16:00:28
Quote: I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not.
As I said, I have adapted. But from my point of view, EVE is a simulation of spaceships, not Counterstrike and the whole nano-craze is unintended use, or may I say abuse of a gamemechanic.
When Nano-Hacs are outrunning everything, even small ships that are designed to go fast, then there is something wrong with the game mechanic. I read month ago, that the Devs do not like the ludicrous speed that some ships achieve. That a Nerf in one way or another would be incoming was really obvious.
But please, do differentiate between those going ludicrous speeds and those ships that are simply fast.
some ships are supposed to be fast, and it is fun. i'm not saying hac's should by and large out do interceptors, but if 90% of the ppl in this thread had any idea, the ones that do are the exception, not the rule. Hell, i've flown plenty of vagabonds, i think every one went roughly 3.5-4km/s, for a vagabond that isn't ludicrous. edit: and the cap was not sustainable
the counterstrike chestnut is worn out, if by that you mean internet spaceships should be slow and calculated and have no heart pumping action, they you couldn't be more wrong.
i am playing a combat game. there is a very real element to this game that requires you to be fast in response, have a spacial awareness of where your enemy or enemies are around you and how to react to that when piloting...
or is it that INTERCEPTORS AND FRIGATES should be like counterstrike? but nothing else?
how did the guy put it in ships and mods? "i can't wait to roll my forehead across my keyboard and fire my missiles" ?something like that ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 16:39:00 -
[3622]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 01/08/2008 16:39:22
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 01/08/2008 16:00:28
Quote: I can adapt, but you unexperienced players could not.
As I said, I have adapted. But from my point of view, EVE is a simulation of spaceships, not Counterstrike and the whole nano-craze is unintended use, or may I say abuse of a gamemechanic.
When Nano-Hacs are outrunning everything, even small ships that are designed to go fast, then there is something wrong with the game mechanic. I read month ago, that the Devs do not like the ludicrous speed that some ships achieve. That a Nerf in one way or another would be incoming was really obvious.
But please, do differentiate between those going ludicrous speeds and those ships that are simply fast.
some ships are supposed to be fast, and it is fun. i'm not saying hac's should by and large out do interceptors, but if 90% of the ppl in this thread had any idea, the ones that do are the exception, not the rule. Hell, i've flown plenty of vagabonds, i think every one went roughly 3.5-4km/s, for a vagabond that isn't ludicrous. edit: and the cap was not sustainable
the counterstrike chestnut is worn out, if by that you mean internet spaceships should be slow and calculated and have no heart pumping action, they you couldn't be more wrong.
i am playing a combat game. there is a very real element to this game that requires you to be fast in response, have a spacial awareness of where your enemy or enemies are around you and how to react to that when piloting...
or is it that INTERCEPTORS AND FRIGATES should be like counterstrike? but nothing else?
how did the guy put it in ships and mods? "i can't wait to roll my forehead across my keyboard and fire my missiles" ?something like that ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 16:49:00 -
[3623]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
i just realized what a complete waste of time it was replying to you above.
i'm losing count of how many times i have to say this:
If you have to polarize this to a discussion of 'us vs them' you are an idiot.
if you cant make room in your posts to discuss the various nerfs and leave room for 'perhaps we need THIS but not THIS' you are completely single minded
.... if your entire point of this debacle is to say "ha ha, we win, you lose" your one of the worst elements in this game and the very reason changes that could be considerate and logical are instead blown out of proportion. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 16:49:00 -
[3624]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
In the end, only those who adapt survive. I already adapted to the Nanos and I will adapt again after they nerfed. While you my friend, may go the way of the dinosaurs, after a giant meteor severely nerfed their way of living.
i just realized what a complete waste of time it was replying to you above.
i'm losing count of how many times i have to say this:
If you have to polarize this to a discussion of 'us vs them' you are an idiot.
if you cant make room in your posts to discuss the various nerfs and leave room for 'perhaps we need THIS but not THIS' you are completely single minded
.... if your entire point of this debacle is to say "ha ha, we win, you lose" your one of the worst elements in this game and the very reason changes that could be considerate and logical are instead blown out of proportion. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Exoterix
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:53:00 -
[3625]
I thought the same thing about blaster boats, but after talking with a corp-mate of mine I don't really think this is going to be the death of the blaster boat at all. First off, you have to be within 10k to be webbed down, generally speaking. Rapiers, and Huginns are the exception to this rule, as are overheated mods. Now, webs are not going to immediately slow a MWD'ing blaster boat down. The physics engine will still allow your inertia to carry you some distance closer to the target. All that you need to do is equip a web to your blaster boat and and he's just as caught as you are. So what if your MWD gets turned off by someone who's equipped a scrambler. You're still going to be gaining ground as you slow down to normal speed. In a blaster boat, if you ran into a rapier or a huginn you were pretty much screwed blued and tattooed anyway.
This really seems like a boost to the Arazu and Lechesis more than anything else. Those are going to get to be a hot item because of their bonuses to scrambling range. As my main is a Gallente pilot I like that Scrams are getting a little love. Now if they could only give a slight boost to dampeners I'd be set for life.
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Exoterix
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:53:00 -
[3626]
I thought the same thing about blaster boats, but after talking with a corp-mate of mine I don't really think this is going to be the death of the blaster boat at all. First off, you have to be within 10k to be webbed down, generally speaking. Rapiers, and Huginns are the exception to this rule, as are overheated mods. Now, webs are not going to immediately slow a MWD'ing blaster boat down. The physics engine will still allow your inertia to carry you some distance closer to the target. All that you need to do is equip a web to your blaster boat and and he's just as caught as you are. So what if your MWD gets turned off by someone who's equipped a scrambler. You're still going to be gaining ground as you slow down to normal speed. In a blaster boat, if you ran into a rapier or a huginn you were pretty much screwed blued and tattooed anyway.
This really seems like a boost to the Arazu and Lechesis more than anything else. Those are going to get to be a hot item because of their bonuses to scrambling range. As my main is a Gallente pilot I like that Scrams are getting a little love. Now if they could only give a slight boost to dampeners I'd be set for life.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:03:00 -
[3627]
Edited by: Esmenet on 01/08/2008 17:02:58
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
You can adapt by parking your HAC's and blasterboats and training Amarr or Caldari BS, but you cant adapt a BS to work in a small roaming gang in 0.0. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:03:00 -
[3628]
Edited by: Esmenet on 01/08/2008 17:02:58
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
You can adapt by parking your HAC's and blasterboats and training Amarr or Caldari BS, but you cant adapt a BS to work in a small roaming gang in 0.0. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:05:00 -
[3629]
Originally by: Exoterix I thought the same thing about blaster boats, but after talking with a corp-mate of mine I don't really think this is going to be the death of the blaster boat at all.
You need to test more, rather than listening to your mate.
Indeed, getting within range can be achieved, all be it with the use of more cap and less speed, whilst taking more damage. But when at range, just try keeping there and getting any good hits from those blasters of yours.
There is a Great Thread in the Game Development Forum, that details the issues with blaster boats. It's well worth a read.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:05:00 -
[3630]
Ships that are designed to go fast should go fast.
A Vagabond is designed to be a hit and run cruiser, it is right now doing the job as it should be. I still think some combinations of Modules, Rigs, Gang Bonuses, Boosters and other things, go over the top.
The problem is that people looked at the vagabond, a ship that is designed to do just that and thought about ways to get their Ishtar, Sacriledge etc. to achieve the same speeds. Suddenly everyone discovered that speed is the best tank, since you are excellent at catching your target, avoiding damage and often get away when things become messy. That is a bit too good if you ask me. Therefore a Nerf is needed.
Even after the Nerf ships designed for speed will go faster then ships that do not. The Vagabond will still be able to hit and run, but the Sacriledge that is supposed to be a heavy tanked HAC have a harder time.
It will also not be the end of all HACs. Tier 2 BC have in many cases a better tank and comparable firepower, but HACs are still faster and more maneuverable and many have extra range.
What will happen with Blasterships I do not know, they were my favorite shiptype aside from Snipertempest. But since roaming gangs will have an incentive to bring other ships than nanoed Cruisers, they might have a chance again.
Most likely Blasterships will need an extra tackler but once they catch up their targets they will be deadly. MWD deactivating Scramblers will be less of an issue since the Blasterships needs the MWD primarily to get into range, not out of it.
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Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:05:00 -
[3631]
Originally by: Exoterix I thought the same thing about blaster boats, but after talking with a corp-mate of mine I don't really think this is going to be the death of the blaster boat at all.
You need to test more, rather than listening to your mate.
Indeed, getting within range can be achieved, all be it with the use of more cap and less speed, whilst taking more damage. But when at range, just try keeping there and getting any good hits from those blasters of yours.
There is a Great Thread in the Game Development Forum, that details the issues with blaster boats. It's well worth a read.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:05:00 -
[3632]
Ships that are designed to go fast should go fast.
A Vagabond is designed to be a hit and run cruiser, it is right now doing the job as it should be. I still think some combinations of Modules, Rigs, Gang Bonuses, Boosters and other things, go over the top.
The problem is that people looked at the vagabond, a ship that is designed to do just that and thought about ways to get their Ishtar, Sacriledge etc. to achieve the same speeds. Suddenly everyone discovered that speed is the best tank, since you are excellent at catching your target, avoiding damage and often get away when things become messy. That is a bit too good if you ask me. Therefore a Nerf is needed.
Even after the Nerf ships designed for speed will go faster then ships that do not. The Vagabond will still be able to hit and run, but the Sacriledge that is supposed to be a heavy tanked HAC have a harder time.
It will also not be the end of all HACs. Tier 2 BC have in many cases a better tank and comparable firepower, but HACs are still faster and more maneuverable and many have extra range.
What will happen with Blasterships I do not know, they were my favorite shiptype aside from Snipertempest. But since roaming gangs will have an incentive to bring other ships than nanoed Cruisers, they might have a chance again.
Most likely Blasterships will need an extra tackler but once they catch up their targets they will be deadly. MWD deactivating Scramblers will be less of an issue since the Blasterships needs the MWD primarily to get into range, not out of it.
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:14:00 -
[3633]
Hi:
130 pages of anger and a week of testing on Sisi later no new dev comments other than that a Vagabond with 4 speed mods and rigs and implants and perfect skills can "easily break 4km/s" (lol, it can't unless those implants are snakes).
Can we please get some more dev responses? I am pretty tired of being in the dark about the patch that will completely negate my 30m SP in Minmatar T2 Cruisin'.
Thanks, -paying customer.
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:14:00 -
[3634]
Hi:
130 pages of anger and a week of testing on Sisi later no new dev comments other than that a Vagabond with 4 speed mods and rigs and implants and perfect skills can "easily break 4km/s" (lol, it can't unless those implants are snakes).
Can we please get some more dev responses? I am pretty tired of being in the dark about the patch that will completely negate my 30m SP in Minmatar T2 Cruisin'.
Thanks, -paying customer.
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Hyron
Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:42:00 -
[3635]
yesh! yesh!
GET BACK IN YOUR BATTLESHIPS ND COME FIGHT *****ES =D
/braces for eft warriors and those who use logic to solve problems..
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Hyron
Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:42:00 -
[3636]
yesh! yesh!
GET BACK IN YOUR BATTLESHIPS ND COME FIGHT *****ES =D
/braces for eft warriors and those who use logic to solve problems..
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:06:00 -
[3637]
Originally by: Vitrael
Can we please get some more dev responses? I am pretty tired of being in the dark about the patch that will completely negate my 30m SP in Minmatar T2 Cruisin'.
There is a new discussion thread open. There is also one or two posts by nozh asking for specific feedback etc.
Linkage
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:06:00 -
[3638]
Originally by: Vitrael
Can we please get some more dev responses? I am pretty tired of being in the dark about the patch that will completely negate my 30m SP in Minmatar T2 Cruisin'.
There is a new discussion thread open. There is also one or two posts by nozh asking for specific feedback etc.
Linkage --
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Allow me to summarize the dev blog in a much simpler way:
Dear players: F*** YOU.
Love, CCP.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:48:00 -
[3639]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 01/08/2008 18:51:23
Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 01/08/2008 17:02:58
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
You can adapt by parking your HAC's and blasterboats and training Amarr or Caldari BS, but you cant adapt a BS to work in a small roaming gang in 0.0.
Die in a fire. I want my race to be good at combat with all other races, I WANT to fly blaster boats, not get them nerfed and f***ed so they are worthless, I want to be an asset in pvp without crosstraining. That is not an option for adaptation, train another f***ing race, you're ignorant if you think thats adaptation.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:48:00 -
[3640]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 01/08/2008 18:51:23
Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 01/08/2008 17:02:58
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
But too, you if you are adapting, then everything is fine. Just quit whining.
You can adapt by parking your HAC's and blasterboats and training Amarr or Caldari BS, but you cant adapt a BS to work in a small roaming gang in 0.0.
Die in a fire. I want my race to be good at combat with all other races, I WANT to fly blaster boats, not get them nerfed and f***ed so they are worthless, I want to be an asset in pvp without crosstraining. That is not an option for adaptation, train another f***ing race, you're ignorant if you think thats adaptation.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:54:00 -
[3641]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
Exactly, you'll have a choice between using a long range scram to get the initial tackle or using the short range scram if you have a tackler buddy along with you. The short range scram means you can be sure the enemy won't mwd away but the long range one means you can get the initial tackle. For fleet action, that short range scram is going to be extremely useful.
You can argue that using the long range scram isn't viable as when you get close enough to use your blasters, the enemy can shut off your mwd with a short range scram an escape. However, that won't let them escape because they have to stay within 7.5km range (and thus within your blaster range) to keep your mwd shut off. If they try to escape using their MWD, yours will reactivate once the enemy gets over 7.5km from you and you'll still have your 20km scram on them. You can resume chasing them immediately.
If you don't want to use the short range scram, just don't. Using a 20km scram will mean you'll have to chase your enemy with his MWD still active, but that still puts you on equal footing as it does right now. Very little will actually be changed.
You are making seriously mistaken assumptions. Your target will not use mwd as i't useless now. He will use AB because he will most certainly expect to be scrambled otherwise they're dumb and it's not a proper example. So he can run away while he or a tackles is scrambling your bs. Also you assume that you're using a scrambler and a disruptor, coupled with mwd. Wrong again because of the limit of medium slots on armor tanked BS (eg a cap injector is a must with mwd in pvp otherwise you're out of cap immediately). Last by not least you're assuming 1on1 and no one but no one fights 1on1 in battleships. You don't undock BS without a gang. So you BS will be tackled with a scrambled the momment it warps in. You will never ever move 1km from your original warp in point. Your obviously not a pvper or a very newbie one as seen by your assumptions.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:54:00 -
[3642]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
Originally by: Nyphur After the changes, they would have a good reason to use the 7.5km scram. With the reduction in web strength, targets could just mwd out of 7.5km scram range if you catch them with less than two webs. Disabling the target's MWD corrects this issue and assures that close range ships like blaster boats can successfully tackle. It means that if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere. The point has been made that a blaster boat will have to be within range of the enemy's 7.5km scram to attack and that's a valid concern. However, a blaster ship doesn't NEED its microwarpdrive once it's reached its target.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
READ: if you can get within blaster range of the enemy, they aren't going anywhere.
If I am to believe that my target is going to sit around while I get within scram range, either one of us or both of us need to quit this game. If I cannot make use of my 24km disrupter because the enemy can just fly away from me because the speed reduction makes my ship (the Astarte)slow as shit, then blaster combat is indeed dead. No one, read: NO ONE is going to see my ship warp in at 22ks and sit. .. . sit and wait for me to get within 7.5ks. . . they. . . will. . . just. . . fly. . .away. . .
Exactly, you'll have a choice between using a long range scram to get the initial tackle or using the short range scram if you have a tackler buddy along with you. The short range scram means you can be sure the enemy won't mwd away but the long range one means you can get the initial tackle. For fleet action, that short range scram is going to be extremely useful.
You can argue that using the long range scram isn't viable as when you get close enough to use your blasters, the enemy can shut off your mwd with a short range scram an escape. However, that won't let them escape because they have to stay within 7.5km range (and thus within your blaster range) to keep your mwd shut off. If they try to escape using their MWD, yours will reactivate once the enemy gets over 7.5km from you and you'll still have your 20km scram on them. You can resume chasing them immediately.
If you don't want to use the short range scram, just don't. Using a 20km scram will mean you'll have to chase your enemy with his MWD still active, but that still puts you on equal footing as it does right now. Very little will actually be changed.
You are making seriously mistaken assumptions. Your target will not use mwd as i't useless now. He will use AB because he will most certainly expect to be scrambled otherwise they're dumb and it's not a proper example. So he can run away while he or a tackles is scrambling your bs. Also you assume that you're using a scrambler and a disruptor, coupled with mwd. Wrong again because of the limit of medium slots on armor tanked BS (eg a cap injector is a must with mwd in pvp otherwise you're out of cap immediately). Last by not least you're assuming 1on1 and no one but no one fights 1on1 in battleships. You don't undock BS without a gang. So you BS will be tackled with a scrambled the momment it warps in. You will never ever move 1km from your original warp in point. Your obviously not a pvper or a very newbie one as seen by your assumptions.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:16:00 -
[3643]
All i gotta say is after you nerf my best PvPer i sure hope you make some of my ships better .... did anyone everthink that maybe the reason Mini's always undock in a HAC/Recon is because they are the best ships mini's have ... and while we are at it have any of you ever noticed that mini ships have less armor and shields of any race because its suppost to be the fastest race? Hensforth the ducktape comments there is a reason ppl say that. Besides time, isk and rl there are other reasons this is a ******ed move it affects all of eve. Its all nano mods so that affects t2 invention, ships (look more t2 invention/ building) cause ppl arent gonna buy them, MWD's cause well tbh these will drop too, lets not forget the webs that just dont seem to work in sisi they wont sell either.So whats this,lets point out that the market is gonna crash not only for the ppl doing invention/building but for the ppl who make the t2 components / and riggs!!! It effects PvP as well as 4 races mini/gall/amarr/caldari because of the ability to web/scram is gonna be crap o yeah it will affect you missile spammers too because if your tanked proper you cant scramble/webb so think about that, this nerf is going to make PvP even more laggy and bloby cause to make up for the things they are nerfing there will be more ppl needed in gang so if you ppl think this is gonna make things better lol think again. This effects us all from industry to PvP from amarr to caldari if you dont believe me do some looking at things and ask indy ppl. Plus ppl always complain about Nano but the thing to think about is when u think of nano /ludacris speed did you ever think of if that ship was able to hit you going full speed? of course they cant exept the ishtar because of the drones and for the ones complaining about ppl running and being a nano pilot ive complained too and still do sometimes im not saying that there shouldnt be a speed nerf because i honestly think there should be but not like this ... this affects WAY WAY WAY too much at once there has to be a better way, You CCP guys better ask your economist about this and really think hard.
For all you ppl that just wanna fight with each other back and forth this is stupid do me a favor all of you do you homework and actually think about it and you know CCP isnt paying attention to us anyways so whats the point, Can we adapt and adjust yes we can everyone can!! do we want to lose isk skill training time and just the plain all out time ive put into this game? time we have all put into this game? No we dont. Do i want to have to train another race do i think CCP should make me have to no! In the same manner no one wants to have to train sumthing they dont want to...so do me a favar and just think about things
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:16:00 -
[3644]
Edited by: Abrynn on 01/08/2008 19:38:56 All i gotta say is after you nerf my best PvPer i sure hope you make some of my ships better .... did anyone everthink that maybe the reason Mini's always undock in a HAC/Recon is because they are the best ships mini's have ... and while we are at it have any of you ever noticed that mini ships have less armor and shields of any race because its suppost to be the fastest race? Hensforth the ducktape comments there is a reason ppl say that. Besides time, isk and rl there are other reasons this is a ******ed move it affects all of eve. Its all nano mods so that affects t2 invention, ships (look more t2 invention/ building) cause ppl arent gonna buy them, MWD's cause well tbh these will drop too, lets not forget the webs that just dont seem to work in sisi they wont sell either.So whats this,lets point out that the market is gonna crash not only for the ppl doing invention/building but for the ppl who make the t2 components / and riggs!!! It effects PvP as well as 4 races mini/gall/amarr/caldari because of the ability to web/scram is gonna be crap o yeah it will affect you missile spammers too because if your tanked proper you cant scramble/webb so think about that, this nerf is going to make PvP even more laggy and bloby cause to make up for the things they are nerfing there will be more ppl needed in gang so if you ppl think this is gonna make things better lol think again. This effects us all from industry to PvP from amarr to caldari if you dont believe me do some looking at things and ask indy ppl. Plus ppl always complain about Nano but the thing to think about is when u think of nano /ludacris speed did you ever think of if that ship was able to hit you going full speed? of course they cant exept the ishtar because of the drones and for the ones complaining about ppl running and being a nano pilot ive complained too and still do sometimes im not saying that there shouldnt be a speed nerf because i honestly think there should be but not like this ... this affects WAY WAY WAY too much at once there has to be a better way, You CCP guys better ask your economist about this and really think hard.
For all you ppl that just wanna fight with each other back and forth this is stupid do me a favor all of you do you homework and actually think about it and you know CCP isnt paying attention to us anyways so whats the point, Can we adapt and adjust yes we can everyone can!! do we want to lose isk skill training time and just the plain all out time ive put into this game? time we have all put into this game? No we dont. Do i want to have to train another race do i think CCP should make me have to no! In the same manner no one wants to have to train sumthing they dont want to...so do me a favar and just think about things
EDIT : you guys should post here too btw http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=833782&page=1
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:57:00 -
[3645]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 01/08/2008 20:01:40 jesus christ. wall of text much? edit: i do actually agree with you. that just hurt my eyeballs
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:57:00 -
[3646]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 01/08/2008 20:01:40 jesus christ. wall of text much? edit: i do actually agree with you. that just hurt my eyeballs
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:41:00 -
[3647]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul You are making seriously mistaken assumptions. Your target will not use mwd as i't useless now. He will use AB because he will most certainly expect to be scrambled otherwise they're dumb and it's not a proper example. So he can run away while he or a tackles is scrambling your bs. Also you assume that you're using a scrambler and a disruptor, coupled with mwd. Wrong again because of the limit of medium slots on armor tanked BS (eg a cap injector is a must with mwd in pvp otherwise you're out of cap immediately). Last by not least you're assuming 1on1 and no one but no one fights 1on1 in battleships. You don't undock BS without a gang. So you BS will be tackled with a scrambled the momment it warps in. You will never ever move 1km from your original warp in point. Your obviously not a pvper or a very newbie one as seen by your assumptions.
Melegaunt, I don't know what to tell you except I made absolutely none of those assumptions. If you would be so kind as to point out how you arrived at the conclusion that I did, I'll gladly contradict them.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 21:41:00 -
[3648]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul You are making seriously mistaken assumptions. Your target will not use mwd as i't useless now. He will use AB because he will most certainly expect to be scrambled otherwise they're dumb and it's not a proper example. So he can run away while he or a tackles is scrambling your bs. Also you assume that you're using a scrambler and a disruptor, coupled with mwd. Wrong again because of the limit of medium slots on armor tanked BS (eg a cap injector is a must with mwd in pvp otherwise you're out of cap immediately). Last by not least you're assuming 1on1 and no one but no one fights 1on1 in battleships. You don't undock BS without a gang. So you BS will be tackled with a scrambled the momment it warps in. You will never ever move 1km from your original warp in point. Your obviously not a pvper or a very newbie one as seen by your assumptions.
Melegaunt, I don't know what to tell you except I made absolutely none of those assumptions. If you would be so kind as to point out how you arrived at the conclusion that I did, I'll gladly contradict them.
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TaterTard
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:07:00 -
[3649]
Echoing the comments of others, my main concern is the effectiveness of Minny Recons. Now if at the same time that you nerf webs to 60% max, you would give target painters the ability to shut off MWDs like the proposed scram change, the Recons could tackle again.
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TaterTard
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:07:00 -
[3650]
Echoing the comments of others, my main concern is the effectiveness of Minny Recons. Now if at the same time that you nerf webs to 60% max, you would give target painters the ability to shut off MWDs like the proposed scram change, the Recons could tackle again.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:27:00 -
[3651]
Originally by: Esmenet To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships.
You do recall posts like yours, that just complain but give no worthwhile substance, are likely being page down'd over right?
A bunch of people saying over and over 'omg this is bad ur killin eve' without solid reasons why are just wasting time, just like those supporting it saying 'omg yay eve pvp r fixd' aren't helping.
The AF thread I read alittle early actually showed a nice effect that seems to be happening with this (AFs no longer nearly worthless despite only having 3 bonuses).
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:27:00 -
[3652]
Originally by: Esmenet To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships.
You do recall posts like yours, that just complain but give no worthwhile substance, are likely being page down'd over right?
A bunch of people saying over and over 'omg this is bad ur killin eve' without solid reasons why are just wasting time, just like those supporting it saying 'omg yay eve pvp r fixd' aren't helping.
The AF thread I read alittle early actually showed a nice effect that seems to be happening with this (AFs no longer nearly worthless despite only having 3 bonuses).
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:08:00 -
[3653]
There is a dynamic being taken away here. From A pvp standpoint its always been pre speed, you fit either gank or tank. This is pre plate. Then came the speed initiative. So we added a paper, scissors, rock element. We have gank, tank and speed. if a tank ship gets engaged by a speed ship it can usually tank it but cannot take it down. A gank ship can take a tank ship but a speed ship cant gank, it cannot tank, either. So it can only run or kill gank ships. Tank ships are best for dealing with gank ships pure gank, and speed is best for dealing with most gank. So it creates a triplistic dynamic. i know this is generalising as some ships dont work against eachother in such fashion but for most part this third speed dynamic creates a sort of balance of the two gank, tank mentalities. often u find if a vaga tackles a well skilled raven pilot in a belt he cant take him down. he has to have some dps backup. Where as an ishtar tends to be find in dps dept,but has to run if nano ships chase it as its weak as **** unless id abandons its drones.
Hacs like recons have become very specialised. IMho no way should a BC thats 30mil be able to hands down spank a hac thats 80 to a 100mil. Thats silly. With this new nerf it puts hacs down even more. If CCP is gonna nerf this they should consider nerfing the amount it takes to build hacs so they can drop below the cost of BC. I seriously hope speed is adressed but this method of all at once is shite. Lets do a little at a time. My suggestion which i feel is the simplest one in game. like thermodynamics. how when u overuse a module it gets damaged. Simple if a ship goes to fast it takes damage from that speed. Or u govern them. A vaga can still be the same so can all the rest but when they hit speeds of 10k or more then get damage, they so to say would rattle apart. Take star trek for example those ships can only go so fast in warp or they risk coming apart. CCP needs to stop this nerf take away thinking they always go for. Move more along the lines of limiting. Its faster and easier to govern ships, or make a cost for taking such actions. Then people can not lose what time and money they spent. but they pay a price when they use it. THe nano mach 10bil pilots would pay the most when they hit speeds of 10kms so they might be more inclined to only use it when dire situations occur. Webs nerf is crap. THis i hope doesnt happen webs are fine. They have been fine since 2k5 when i started. SCramblers well thas another story im not sure i stand in the middle with them. THey have a price. the MWD delay is crap. And the module changes and speed nerfs are the wrong approach. I doubt this will even get read but i can be hopeful a dev sees this and considers this very simple solution. Lets not regress to 2k5 tank, or gank style eve play. ITs laggy enough thank u.
|
R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 23:08:00 -
[3654]
There is a dynamic being taken away here. From A pvp standpoint its always been pre speed, you fit either gank or tank. This is pre plate. Then came the speed initiative. So we added a paper, scissors, rock element. We have gank, tank and speed. if a tank ship gets engaged by a speed ship it can usually tank it but cannot take it down. A gank ship can take a tank ship but a speed ship cant gank, it cannot tank, either. So it can only run or kill gank ships. Tank ships are best for dealing with gank ships pure gank, and speed is best for dealing with most gank. So it creates a triplistic dynamic. i know this is generalising as some ships dont work against eachother in such fashion but for most part this third speed dynamic creates a sort of balance of the two gank, tank mentalities. often u find if a vaga tackles a well skilled raven pilot in a belt he cant take him down. he has to have some dps backup. Where as an ishtar tends to be find in dps dept,but has to run if nano ships chase it as its weak as **** unless id abandons its drones.
Hacs like recons have become very specialised. IMho no way should a BC thats 30mil be able to hands down spank a hac thats 80 to a 100mil. Thats silly. With this new nerf it puts hacs down even more. If CCP is gonna nerf this they should consider nerfing the amount it takes to build hacs so they can drop below the cost of BC. I seriously hope speed is adressed but this method of all at once is shite. Lets do a little at a time. My suggestion which i feel is the simplest one in game. like thermodynamics. how when u overuse a module it gets damaged. Simple if a ship goes to fast it takes damage from that speed. Or u govern them. A vaga can still be the same so can all the rest but when they hit speeds of 10k or more then get damage, they so to say would rattle apart. Take star trek for example those ships can only go so fast in warp or they risk coming apart. CCP needs to stop this nerf take away thinking they always go for. Move more along the lines of limiting. Its faster and easier to govern ships, or make a cost for taking such actions. Then people can not lose what time and money they spent. but they pay a price when they use it. THe nano mach 10bil pilots would pay the most when they hit speeds of 10kms so they might be more inclined to only use it when dire situations occur. Webs nerf is crap. THis i hope doesnt happen webs are fine. They have been fine since 2k5 when i started. SCramblers well thas another story im not sure i stand in the middle with them. THey have a price. the MWD delay is crap. And the module changes and speed nerfs are the wrong approach. I doubt this will even get read but i can be hopeful a dev sees this and considers this very simple solution. Lets not regress to 2k5 tank, or gank style eve play. ITs laggy enough thank u.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:09:00 -
[3655]
Small gang pvp will still be alive. What the heck are all you nanoweenies whining about? Small gang pvp will always be here. Just cuz you can't take a small gang and pick off an uber fleet one by one anymore is the only issue you are concerned about. Small gang pvp will remain, you just need to look for similar numbers for targets. Gone will be the days of little weenie alliances and corps declaring war on large entities to knock them off one-by-one with little recourse and risk. If you ask me, that is what was flawed and is now going to be fixed.
It's been rebalanced... and will one day need to be rebalanced again. That is what keeps this game going... thank goodness for people who realize that. shame to those with selfish ego trips.
--------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Pithecanthropus
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 23:09:00 -
[3656]
Small gang pvp will still be alive. What the heck are all you nanoweenies whining about? Small gang pvp will always be here. Just cuz you can't take a small gang and pick off an uber fleet one by one anymore is the only issue you are concerned about. Small gang pvp will remain, you just need to look for similar numbers for targets. Gone will be the days of little weenie alliances and corps declaring war on large entities to knock them off one-by-one with little recourse and risk. If you ask me, that is what was flawed and is now going to be fixed.
It's been rebalanced... and will one day need to be rebalanced again. That is what keeps this game going... thank goodness for people who realize that. shame to those with selfish ego trips.
--------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 00:17:00 -
[3657]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Small gang pvp will still be alive. What the heck are all you nanoweenies whining about? Small gang pvp will always be here. Just cuz you can't take a small gang and pick off an uber fleet one by one anymore is the only issue you are concerned about. Small gang pvp will remain, you just need to look for similar numbers for targets. Gone will be the days of little weenie alliances and corps declaring war on large entities to knock them off one-by-one with little recourse and risk. If you ask me, that is what was flawed and is now going to be fixed.
It's been rebalanced... and will one day need to be rebalanced again. That is what keeps this game going... thank goodness for people who realize that. shame to those with selfish ego trips.
so what your saying is that you want everyone to have to blob to be able to fight?
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 00:17:00 -
[3658]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus Small gang pvp will still be alive. What the heck are all you nanoweenies whining about? Small gang pvp will always be here. Just cuz you can't take a small gang and pick off an uber fleet one by one anymore is the only issue you are concerned about. Small gang pvp will remain, you just need to look for similar numbers for targets. Gone will be the days of little weenie alliances and corps declaring war on large entities to knock them off one-by-one with little recourse and risk. If you ask me, that is what was flawed and is now going to be fixed.
It's been rebalanced... and will one day need to be rebalanced again. That is what keeps this game going... thank goodness for people who realize that. shame to those with selfish ego trips.
so what your saying is that you want everyone to have to blob to be able to fight?
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Elridon
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 00:59:00 -
[3659]
Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages. |
Elridon
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 00:59:00 -
[3660]
Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages. |
|
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 01:35:00 -
[3661]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Esmenet To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships.
You do recall posts like yours, that just complain but give no worthwhile substance, are likely being page down'd over right?
A bunch of people saying over and over 'omg this is bad ur killin eve' without solid reasons why are just wasting time, just like those supporting it saying 'omg yay eve pvp r fixd' aren't helping.
The AF thread I read alittle early actually showed a nice effect that seems to be happening with this (AFs no longer nearly worthless despite only having 3 bonuses).
Its pretty obvious for anyone thats actually lived in 0.0.
But wohooo AF's will be slightly more useful while hac's, intys and blasterships are firmly stuck in the pile of useless junk. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 01:35:00 -
[3662]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Esmenet To use CCP terms this change is Ludicrous. Its a massive nerf to small gang pvp, especially in 0.0. And it will completely destroy whats left of the blasterships.
You do recall posts like yours, that just complain but give no worthwhile substance, are likely being page down'd over right?
A bunch of people saying over and over 'omg this is bad ur killin eve' without solid reasons why are just wasting time, just like those supporting it saying 'omg yay eve pvp r fixd' aren't helping.
The AF thread I read alittle early actually showed a nice effect that seems to be happening with this (AFs no longer nearly worthless despite only having 3 bonuses).
Its pretty obvious for anyone thats actually lived in 0.0.
But wohooo AF's will be slightly more useful while hac's, intys and blasterships are firmly stuck in the pile of useless junk. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 04:29:00 -
[3663]
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
|
Luckyduck
Gallente Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 04:29:00 -
[3664]
Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 06:22:00 -
[3665]
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Hear I go thinking all your Req guys were nano***s. I take back my assumption. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 06:22:00 -
[3666]
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Hear I go thinking all your Req guys were nano***s. I take back my assumption. ----------------- Friends Forever |
mamolian
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 06:53:00 -
[3667]
132 pages lol -----------
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mamolian
Madhatters Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 06:53:00 -
[3668]
132 pages lol -----------
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dojocan81
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:30:00 -
[3669]
Edited by: dojocan81 on 02/08/2008 09:29:59
Originally by: mamolian 132 pages lol
and most of them contain only whine & s**t...
|
dojocan81
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:30:00 -
[3670]
Edited by: dojocan81 on 02/08/2008 09:29:59
Originally by: mamolian 132 pages lol
and most of them contain only whine & s**t...
|
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:44:00 -
[3671]
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Problem is that tanking in this game doesn't often achieve much. Since buffer tanks are SO much better than active tanks, HACs are just outclassed in that department by both BC and BS even though they are supposedly built to tank.
Now, becuase everyone and their mum fits plates and extenders, for a HAC to be worth using, it needs to put a crapton of damage on to cut through it and have a chance to live. However, they can't do that either, because pvp bs fits outclass them in that department too. So you are left trying to kill someone who has masses more HP than you and who is doing more damage.
How do you survive in this situation ? You use the advantage that a HAC has over a BS of course. SPEED.
Because seriously, if you make HACs sit and slug it out, they just loose so hard its not funny.
I mean there should be a reason to fly something that costs as much as a tier 2 BS, does less damage, tanks less well and has lower flexability and fitting choices. At the moment, HACs are great because they are able to use the one area they are better than BS to kill them. Take that away, and theres no reason to ever fly anything other than a tackler or a BS. All hail 'variety' in set-ups.
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:44:00 -
[3672]
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37
Originally by: Elridon Edited by: Elridon on 02/08/2008 01:01:59 While the nerf itself is sad to see contemplated, from what I've seen in the thread (only read 50 pages in, 132 is just too damn much), all of the responses by the devs have been snippy defensive remarks. There was one, ONE, post that was semi-decent, back on page 30 or 31.
I'm all for vagabonds not going 13km/s anymore, but seriously, 4 after a snake set? Minmatar ships having the largest mass? It's just too much of a change to every aspect of every ship at once. It's worse than being a nub and just learning the game like the way CCP apparently wants it to be.
Around the time of the first nano-nerf (the one where they changed the nanofibers, i-stabs, overdrives, some other stuff I really don't remember) I was training for a phoon, looked like a fun ship. Nerf hit, I trained for other races in case a nerf of what I like/wanted to fly was pulled again. Really didn't expect every damn ship ingame to get hit with a nerf Looks like it's time to train cruise missiles 2, eh?
------------------
Edit: Doh, just saw that there is a new thread about it. Time to read another 50 pages.
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Problem is that tanking in this game doesn't often achieve much. Since buffer tanks are SO much better than active tanks, HACs are just outclassed in that department by both BC and BS even though they are supposedly built to tank.
Now, becuase everyone and their mum fits plates and extenders, for a HAC to be worth using, it needs to put a crapton of damage on to cut through it and have a chance to live. However, they can't do that either, because pvp bs fits outclass them in that department too. So you are left trying to kill someone who has masses more HP than you and who is doing more damage.
How do you survive in this situation ? You use the advantage that a HAC has over a BS of course. SPEED.
Because seriously, if you make HACs sit and slug it out, they just loose so hard its not funny.
I mean there should be a reason to fly something that costs as much as a tier 2 BS, does less damage, tanks less well and has lower flexability and fitting choices. At the moment, HACs are great because they are able to use the one area they are better than BS to kill them. Take that away, and theres no reason to ever fly anything other than a tackler or a BS. All hail 'variety' in set-ups.
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Randal Pax
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:59:00 -
[3673]
ccp plx update the dev blog if you intend to listen to any of the rants in here
|
Randal Pax
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 09:59:00 -
[3674]
ccp plx update the dev blog if you intend to listen to any of the rants in here
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 10:28:00 -
[3675]
Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:48 Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:30
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 10:28:00 -
[3676]
Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:48 Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:30
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:06:00 -
[3677]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:06:00 -
[3678]
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Sanis Jalthar
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:43:00 -
[3679]
The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity. At last, some ingenuity will be involved as opposed to 75% ***abonds in fleet. Just think of all the options it opens up. Maybe for once roaming gangs won't be 50+% ***abonds and ***apiers. Nano*****s just wanna be able to use a 75 man 20K m/s+ fleet (TRI and GBC for example)and come out with almost 0 losses. Using speed to survive like that is NOT what this game is about.
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Truth be told, the only way to "test" if something is going to behave a certain way you feel it will is to literally test it. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
As for "killing the only way we have of killing bob", thats bullsh**. Nevermind bobits b/c they only fight when numbers are in their favor (MAXfailure for example), this will bring balance. Only the nano*****s will diagree b/c the only way they can skillfully survive is w/ 30,000 m/s speed carebear ships.
Blasterboats won't die either. Boats activate their webs once their in range and at that point they begin to think about killing their mwd anyways. So quit whining. I may train blasterboats myself after this. This doesn't kill Minmatar overnight either. Maybe you noobs didn't read, but Minmatar will STILL BE THE FASTEST RACE. Just not so fast to where they can go 0 to 20K in 3 secs and dodge anything that could potentially destroy those carebears.
This game is EvE online, not NASCAR online, so get used to it. Get some skill, sell your 30K m/s ***abond and stop carebearing. The only person who uses a ludicrous speed ***a is a carebear; and gang warfare should be about killing ppl, not about making a ship-so-you-only-attack-when-time-is-right bullsh**. It should not be the case, under any circumstances, that you are so fast that you can outrun your foe before they even have a chance of hitting you. That's not what this game is about. This game is about killing and dying. If you kill someone, awesome; if you die, man the **** up, grow a pair, and move on. Stop relying on speed to see you through battles , you stupid BoB-loving, carebearing sons of bit****. God...
And if you quit this game b/c of this nerf or feel that we are going the way of SWG, then good riddance. I'm frickin tired of ppl complaining that their 30K m/s ***abond will be going 7K m/s as opposed to the original. Its ppl like these whom the game has no need for.
|
Sanis Jalthar
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 11:43:00 -
[3680]
The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity. At last, some ingenuity will be involved as opposed to 75% ***abonds in fleet. Just think of all the options it opens up. Maybe for once roaming gangs won't be 50+% ***abonds and ***apiers. Nano*****s just wanna be able to use a 75 man 20K m/s+ fleet (TRI and GBC for example)and come out with almost 0 losses. Using speed to survive like that is NOT what this game is about.
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Truth be told, the only way to "test" if something is going to behave a certain way you feel it will is to literally test it. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
As for "killing the only way we have of killing bob", thats bullsh**. Nevermind bobits b/c they only fight when numbers are in their favor (MAXfailure for example), this will bring balance. Only the nano*****s will diagree b/c the only way they can skillfully survive is w/ 30,000 m/s speed carebear ships.
Blasterboats won't die either. Boats activate their webs once their in range and at that point they begin to think about killing their mwd anyways. So quit whining. I may train blasterboats myself after this. This doesn't kill Minmatar overnight either. Maybe you noobs didn't read, but Minmatar will STILL BE THE FASTEST RACE. Just not so fast to where they can go 0 to 20K in 3 secs and dodge anything that could potentially destroy those carebears.
This game is EvE online, not NASCAR online, so get used to it. Get some skill, sell your 30K m/s ***abond and stop carebearing. The only person who uses a ludicrous speed ***a is a carebear; and gang warfare should be about killing ppl, not about making a ship-so-you-only-attack-when-time-is-right bullsh**. It should not be the case, under any circumstances, that you are so fast that you can outrun your foe before they even have a chance of hitting you. That's not what this game is about. This game is about killing and dying. If you kill someone, awesome; if you die, man the **** up, grow a pair, and move on. Stop relying on speed to see you through battles , you stupid BoB-loving, carebearing sons of bit****. God...
And if you quit this game b/c of this nerf or feel that we are going the way of SWG, then good riddance. I'm frickin tired of ppl complaining that their 30K m/s ***abond will be going 7K m/s as opposed to the original. Its ppl like these whom the game has no need for.
|
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:04:00 -
[3681]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
Why?...just because you say so?.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity.
Sanis Jalthar 5 kill 4 losses EVER in over a year. Yea yea lets listen to the full time pro 0.0 uber pvper.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Yea fancy pvpers having a opinion on a pvp issue!!!!!!. And most others do not care its mostly those who suck at pvp and need summat to blame who are against NANO.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
Its been tested as much as it can be and the results are terrible for roaming gang warfare.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar A lot of ranting and clueless comments about stuff i know nothing about.
fixed
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:04:00 -
[3682]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
Why?...just because you say so?.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity.
Sanis Jalthar 5 kill 4 losses EVER in over a year. Yea yea lets listen to the full time pro 0.0 uber pvper.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Yea fancy pvpers having a opinion on a pvp issue!!!!!!. And most others do not care its mostly those who suck at pvp and need summat to blame who are against NANO.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar
. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
Its been tested as much as it can be and the results are terrible for roaming gang warfare.
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar A lot of ranting and clueless comments about stuff i know nothing about.
fixed
|
Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:11:00 -
[3683]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar Complete Load of Tripe
Did you even read any of the posts?
Nobody is saying nano's dont need a nerf they clearly do need a touch up the complaint is this change removes there viability from pvp. Thus reducing pvp options and more imporantly making small gang combat all but a waste of time as the blob will always win!!
P
|
Pheleus
Federation of Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:11:00 -
[3684]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar Complete Load of Tripe
Did you even read any of the posts?
Nobody is saying nano's dont need a nerf they clearly do need a touch up the complaint is this change removes there viability from pvp. Thus reducing pvp options and more imporantly making small gang combat all but a waste of time as the blob will always win!!
P
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:19:00 -
[3685]
Originally by: Pheleus
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar Complete Load of Tripe
Did you even read any of the posts?
Nobody is saying nano's dont need a nerf they clearly do need a touch up the complaint is this change removes there viability from pvp. Thus reducing pvp options and more imporantly making small gang combat all but a waste of time as the blob will always win!!
P
DING!!!
The voice of somebody who plays and enjoys pvp in the game.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 12:19:00 -
[3686]
Originally by: Pheleus
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar Complete Load of Tripe
Did you even read any of the posts?
Nobody is saying nano's dont need a nerf they clearly do need a touch up the complaint is this change removes there viability from pvp. Thus reducing pvp options and more imporantly making small gang combat all but a waste of time as the blob will always win!!
P
DING!!!
The voice of somebody who plays and enjoys pvp in the game.
|
Lois Bishop
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 14:12:00 -
[3687]
From corpmate.
Quote: what i learned after sisi? gogo sniper/cruise missile squads !!!! As soon as you have sniper 60+km from your hac - just warp off. Srsly - warp. Or you will die (unless you heavily tanked). Ofc if its sniper gang not sure if you will even align. Cruises? Oh yea... pack your ship and leave tbh :X At 50% thermic resist on my curse i was getting hitfor around 80-90 damage/cruise missile. Thats enough to remove it pretty fast and you have no way of countering missile spam.
What more: equipped sacri with assault launchers (no cerb skill on sisi, sorry). Ares came within 35km. Ares didnt warp out before he died (4 salvos on him considering my bad explo velocity and low precission lights skill).
Afterburner HAC = still dead hac. Got ishtar in my "nano" sacri (2 poly 1 nano = 1,9km/s) and he had no chance in hell of shaking me off. On the other hand i tried same trick with astarte (rail) and boy it did hurt like hell. My overheated reps barely kept up with damage.
TBH im still not sure how to fly some of HACs for example zealot. I guess ill either go sniping way (to evade afs and shite) but as soon as sniper BS shows on field i might as well logoffski.
apoc + megapulses (scorch) mwd, 2x web, sensor 3x sink, tracking enh, some tank 2x locus rig, 1x trimark
92 optimal, 110 lock
It ****d all hacs around. More fun? Lets get 5-10 of those and get primary. With a bit of luck any hac will be 2 salvoed.
2x web is for those buggers who like to come into "scrambler" range.
|
Lois Bishop
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 14:12:00 -
[3688]
From corpmate.
Quote: what i learned after sisi? gogo sniper/cruise missile squads !!!! As soon as you have sniper 60+km from your hac - just warp off. Srsly - warp. Or you will die (unless you heavily tanked). Ofc if its sniper gang not sure if you will even align. Cruises? Oh yea... pack your ship and leave tbh :X At 50% thermic resist on my curse i was getting hitfor around 80-90 damage/cruise missile. Thats enough to remove it pretty fast and you have no way of countering missile spam.
What more: equipped sacri with assault launchers (no cerb skill on sisi, sorry). Ares came within 35km. Ares didnt warp out before he died (4 salvos on him considering my bad explo velocity and low precission lights skill).
Afterburner HAC = still dead hac. Got ishtar in my "nano" sacri (2 poly 1 nano = 1,9km/s) and he had no chance in hell of shaking me off. On the other hand i tried same trick with astarte (rail) and boy it did hurt like hell. My overheated reps barely kept up with damage.
TBH im still not sure how to fly some of HACs for example zealot. I guess ill either go sniping way (to evade afs and shite) but as soon as sniper BS shows on field i might as well logoffski.
apoc + megapulses (scorch) mwd, 2x web, sensor 3x sink, tracking enh, some tank 2x locus rig, 1x trimark
92 optimal, 110 lock
It ****d all hacs around. More fun? Lets get 5-10 of those and get primary. With a bit of luck any hac will be 2 salvoed.
2x web is for those buggers who like to come into "scrambler" range.
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:00:00 -
[3689]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar insert wall of useless dribble...
mmmmmmmmmm carebear tears
ps u fail
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:00:00 -
[3690]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar insert wall of useless dribble...
mmmmmmmmmm carebear tears
ps u fail
|
|
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:14:00 -
[3691]
Originally by: Stab Wounds Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:48 Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:30
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
Oh gods I hope that was pure molten sarcasm that was so smooth that it slipped under my radar.
What is your sublime/completely rediculous reasoning for that ?
Between making everyone move around stuck in second gear except for those ships that actually need the speed to be of any use what so ever who are stuck in first... We aren't going to be looking at a good change for PvP.
Not that im especially cut up, since IMO pulse lasers are likely to be the new flavor of the month and i just finished speccing them, but still, in principal...
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Valea Silpha
Death Monkey's With Knives
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:14:00 -
[3692]
Originally by: Stab Wounds Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:48 Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 10:28:30
Originally by: Luckyduck
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
Oh gods I hope that was pure molten sarcasm that was so smooth that it slipped under my radar.
What is your sublime/completely rediculous reasoning for that ?
Between making everyone move around stuck in second gear except for those ships that actually need the speed to be of any use what so ever who are stuck in first... We aren't going to be looking at a good change for PvP.
Not that im especially cut up, since IMO pulse lasers are likely to be the new flavor of the month and i just finished speccing them, but still, in principal...
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
TimGascoigne
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:19:00 -
[3693]
CCP y are u penalising the minmatar recons? I understand that you are nerfing webs to make the warp scrambler more useful however that only applies to ships where the web only goes to 9KM. partnerships like a hyena of Rapier and the huginn the web distance can be up to 20km and 60km respectively. At this distance the boost you have given to warp scramblers is meaningless. So please give the minmatar recons a roll bonus to compensate.
|
TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:19:00 -
[3694]
CCP y are u penalising the minmatar recons? I understand that you are nerfing webs to make the warp scrambler more useful however that only applies to ships where the web only goes to 9KM. partnerships like a hyena of Rapier and the huginn the web distance can be up to 20km and 60km respectively. At this distance the boost you have given to warp scramblers is meaningless. So please give the minmatar recons a roll bonus to compensate.
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:21:00 -
[3695]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:21:00 -
[3696]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
KISOGOKU
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:24:00 -
[3697]
I loled who was that noob went vs raven in a curse? Seriously raven vs curse/pilgrim =dead curse/pilgrim if raven pilot is not noob
Originally by: Lois Bishop From corpmate.
|
KISOGOKU
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:24:00 -
[3698]
I loled who was that noob went vs raven in a curse? Seriously raven vs curse/pilgrim =dead curse/pilgrim if raven pilot is not noob
Originally by: Lois Bishop From corpmate.
|
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:26:00 -
[3699]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
BC's or BS's do that much better for a fraction of the cost. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:26:00 -
[3700]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
BC's or BS's do that much better for a fraction of the cost. Vote against the nano nerf! |
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:28:00 -
[3701]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
I doubt theirs a hac in the game that can tank as well as most battle cruisers, the only thing that most hacs are good for is nano, if you remove that you may as well remove hacs.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:28:00 -
[3702]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
I doubt theirs a hac in the game that can tank as well as most battle cruisers, the only thing that most hacs are good for is nano, if you remove that you may as well remove hacs.
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:43:00 -
[3703]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
I doubt theirs a hac in the game that can tank as well as most battle cruisers, the only thing that most hacs are good for is nano, if you remove that you may as well remove hacs.
they are good for a few things other than nanno but not really in conventional pvp...
so i really do agree with that if you nerf nanno just take away the hacs entirely and allow me to put my skillpoints where i want to compensate
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 15:43:00 -
[3704]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
I doubt theirs a hac in the game that can tank as well as most battle cruisers, the only thing that most hacs are good for is nano, if you remove that you may as well remove hacs.
they are good for a few things other than nanno but not really in conventional pvp...
so i really do agree with that if you nerf nanno just take away the hacs entirely and allow me to put my skillpoints where i want to compensate
|
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:14:00 -
[3705]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity. At last, some ingenuity will be involved as opposed to 75% ***abonds in fleet. Just think of all the options it opens up. Maybe for once roaming gangs won't be 50+% ***abonds and ***apiers. Nano*****s just wanna be able to use a 75 man 20K m/s+ fleet (TRI and GBC for example)and come out with almost 0 losses. Using speed to survive like that is NOT what this game is about.
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Truth be told, the only way to "test" if something is going to behave a certain way you feel it will is to literally test it. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
As for "killing the only way we have of killing bob", thats bullsh**. Nevermind bobits b/c they only fight when numbers are in their favor (MAXfailure for example), this will bring balance. Only the nano*****s will diagree b/c the only way they can skillfully survive is w/ 30,000 m/s speed carebear ships.
Blasterboats won't die either. Boats activate their webs once their in range and at that point they begin to think about killing their mwd anyways. So quit whining. I may train blasterboats myself after this. This doesn't kill Minmatar overnight either. Maybe you noobs didn't read, but Minmatar will STILL BE THE FASTEST RACE. Just not so fast to where they can go 0 to 20K in 3 secs and dodge anything that could potentially destroy those carebears.
This game is EvE online, not NASCAR online, so get used to it. Get some skill, sell your 30K m/s ***abond and stop carebearing. The only person who uses a ludicrous speed ***a is a carebear; and gang warfare should be about killing ppl, not about making a ship-so-you-only-attack-when-time-is-right bullsh**. It should not be the case, under any circumstances, that you are so fast that you can outrun your foe before they even have a chance of hitting you. That's not what this game is about. This game is about killing and dying. If you kill someone, awesome; if you die, man the **** up, grow a pair, and move on. Stop relying on speed to see you through battles , you stupid BoB-loving, carebearing sons of bit****. God...
And if you quit this game b/c of this nerf or feel that we are going the way of SWG, then good riddance. I'm frickin tired of ppl complaining that their 30K m/s ***abond will be going 7K m/s as opposed to the original. Its ppl like these whom the game has no need for.
30k m/s ***abond, that is classic! way to go loser with your awful rant, i leave the thread for 2 days and now you make me laugh..
only people this proposed cataclysimic shift in PVP helps are megafailblob alliances, nothing else
|
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:14:00 -
[3706]
Originally by: Sanis Jalthar The only people who will oppose this are the nano*****s and they deserve no mention.
"Killing small gang warfare" is something that only an inexperienced pilot would say. As a 0.0 full time pilot, this will help guerilla warfare diversity. At last, some ingenuity will be involved as opposed to 75% ***abonds in fleet. Just think of all the options it opens up. Maybe for once roaming gangs won't be 50+% ***abonds and ***apiers. Nano*****s just wanna be able to use a 75 man 20K m/s+ fleet (TRI and GBC for example)and come out with almost 0 losses. Using speed to survive like that is NOT what this game is about.
Those polls about the popularity of this nerf are no different than when California tried to pass a law placing a tax on cigarettes; it went to ballot and all the smokers who never vote came out and voted against it. MOST people APPROVE of this nerf.
Truth be told, the only way to "test" if something is going to behave a certain way you feel it will is to literally test it. I'm an engineer, I would know. Can't imagine how a bridge will hold up, lest you do testing. Have you guys (nano*****s) REALLY tested it out? No. Therefore, you can't be sure that it'll behave that way (the way you see it). Applying your reason or projections doesn't count.
As for "killing the only way we have of killing bob", thats bullsh**. Nevermind bobits b/c they only fight when numbers are in their favor (MAXfailure for example), this will bring balance. Only the nano*****s will diagree b/c the only way they can skillfully survive is w/ 30,000 m/s speed carebear ships.
Blasterboats won't die either. Boats activate their webs once their in range and at that point they begin to think about killing their mwd anyways. So quit whining. I may train blasterboats myself after this. This doesn't kill Minmatar overnight either. Maybe you noobs didn't read, but Minmatar will STILL BE THE FASTEST RACE. Just not so fast to where they can go 0 to 20K in 3 secs and dodge anything that could potentially destroy those carebears.
This game is EvE online, not NASCAR online, so get used to it. Get some skill, sell your 30K m/s ***abond and stop carebearing. The only person who uses a ludicrous speed ***a is a carebear; and gang warfare should be about killing ppl, not about making a ship-so-you-only-attack-when-time-is-right bullsh**. It should not be the case, under any circumstances, that you are so fast that you can outrun your foe before they even have a chance of hitting you. That's not what this game is about. This game is about killing and dying. If you kill someone, awesome; if you die, man the **** up, grow a pair, and move on. Stop relying on speed to see you through battles , you stupid BoB-loving, carebearing sons of bit****. God...
And if you quit this game b/c of this nerf or feel that we are going the way of SWG, then good riddance. I'm frickin tired of ppl complaining that their 30K m/s ***abond will be going 7K m/s as opposed to the original. Its ppl like these whom the game has no need for.
30k m/s ***abond, that is classic! way to go loser with your awful rant, i leave the thread for 2 days and now you make me laugh..
only people this proposed cataclysimic shift in PVP helps are megafailblob alliances, nothing else
|
DaHT1cT
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:55:00 -
[3707]
Devs, what are you doing? You are just bringing the era of huge, slow, dumb blobs. You are killing minmatar as a race - they are all about speed as much as caldari are about missiles. We need speed as we need the choice if we wanna be slow heavy armored tanks or fast and lighting little gangs who , after coninues training and wasting lots of isk, ARE ABLE to fight those huge ships.
Devs the eve needs the choice, it needs the speed!
|
DaHT1cT
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:55:00 -
[3708]
Devs, what are you doing? You are just bringing the era of huge, slow, dumb blobs. You are killing minmatar as a race - they are all about speed as much as caldari are about missiles. We need speed as we need the choice if we wanna be slow heavy armored tanks or fast and lighting little gangs who , after coninues training and wasting lots of isk, ARE ABLE to fight those huge ships.
Devs the eve needs the choice, it needs the speed!
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Elliott Manchild
omen. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:05:00 -
[3709]
ccp killing everything fun 1 thing at a time.
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Elliott Manchild
omen. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 17:05:00 -
[3710]
Edited by: Elliott Manchild on 02/08/2008 17:06:41 ccp killing everything fun 1 thing at a time. People aren't smart enough to fit there ships to defend against a nano ship that has 200+ -> billions in isk on it and want to kill it with there drake. I love eve but every patch I find it harder to find a reason to login.
|
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emllik
Minmatar Extreme Addiction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:41:00 -
[3711]
Edited by: emllik on 02/08/2008 18:44:50
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37 Edited by: emllik on 02/08/2008 18:42:15
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
yes everyone should listen to game over members they are uber and know all just ask them how to fit and hot drop titans ........ lol .....*cough*failboat*cough*
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:41:00 -
[3712]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
The guys above have a damn fine point.
A large repper repairs almost as much as two medium reppers. Yes HACs have some higher resists, but thye aren't high enough to make up for that differance in repair amount. In fact, if i make so bold, you would need 4 non-stacking penalised t1 hardeners to make up for that. Then HACs have fewer slots to tank in. Almost every bs if fitted for straight up tank gets 6 or more slots to do it with. HACs mostly get 5 or fewer, and that assumes you don't fit damage mods in those slots.
Even on the really really tanky HACs, (sac and zealot) you are still going to be repping WAY less than a bs and you'll have about a quarter of the buffer meaning that you may well never have a chance to cycle those reps.
|
emllik
Minmatar Extreme Addiction Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:41:00 -
[3713]
Edited by: emllik on 02/08/2008 18:44:50
Originally by: Luckyduck Edited by: Luckyduck on 02/08/2008 04:29:37 Edited by: emllik on 02/08/2008 18:42:15
I'm at a loss where people think 4km/s is slow for a hac... It's a Hac, not an interceptor ffs... get over yourselves.
Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.
yes everyone should listen to game over members they are uber and know all just ask them how to fit and hot drop titans ........ lol .....*cough*failboat*cough*
|
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:41:00 -
[3714]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
The vaga should max out at around 7kms the others at around 5kms at least or you may as well scrap the entire line of HAC's. And playing with the name to justify reducing them to utter worthlessness is just pathetic btw.
and ypou cant fit other than nano? like use the T2 resistances the HACs have and fit ythem for tank? or use damage bonuses and fit for gank? well fitet HAC is realy powerfull ship, not only with nano >_>
The guys above have a damn fine point.
A large repper repairs almost as much as two medium reppers. Yes HACs have some higher resists, but thye aren't high enough to make up for that differance in repair amount. In fact, if i make so bold, you would need 4 non-stacking penalised t1 hardeners to make up for that. Then HACs have fewer slots to tank in. Almost every bs if fitted for straight up tank gets 6 or more slots to do it with. HACs mostly get 5 or fewer, and that assumes you don't fit damage mods in those slots.
Even on the really really tanky HACs, (sac and zealot) you are still going to be repping WAY less than a bs and you'll have about a quarter of the buffer meaning that you may well never have a chance to cycle those reps.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:01:00 -
[3715]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Luckyduck
stuf
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
stuff
dont feed the troll. just look around a few threads, stab wounds just trolls
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:01:00 -
[3716]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Luckyduck
stuf
Exactly. The nerf isn't enough tbh.
stuff
dont feed the troll. just look around a few threads, stab wounds just trolls
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:45:00 -
[3717]
agreed
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:45:00 -
[3718]
agreed
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 01:44:00 -
[3719]
everyone still neglects to remark on the fact of what this is going to do to minm invention and the market these are also valid points
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 01:44:00 -
[3720]
everyone still neglects to remark on the fact of what this is going to do to minm invention and the market these are also valid points
|
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 02:18:00 -
[3721]
Edited by: Hoshino Rika on 03/08/2008 02:23:29
Originally by: Elliott Manchild Edited by: Elliott Manchild on 02/08/2008 17:06:41 ccp killing everything fun 1 thing at a time. People aren't smart enough to fit there ships to defend against a nano ship that has 200+ -> billions in isk on it and want to kill it with there drake. I love eve but every patch I find it harder to find a reason to login.
single nano is not a problem, oven 5 or 10 ofthem, i am tired of nanoblobs though, how to fight nano blob? with huggin blob? or 20 smartbomb fited MS campoing gate? this nerf is good, those wo want to fly 300bil nanpo wil still do itm, and still will kill ratters, but rest will need to think a ;little >_>
EDIT: and no i dont fly drakes or nanos >_>, i fly good neuron fitted blasterboats >_>only nano i use is sabre on dual overdrive
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 02:18:00 -
[3722]
Edited by: Hoshino Rika on 03/08/2008 02:23:29
Originally by: Elliott Manchild Edited by: Elliott Manchild on 02/08/2008 17:06:41 ccp killing everything fun 1 thing at a time. People aren't smart enough to fit there ships to defend against a nano ship that has 200+ -> billions in isk on it and want to kill it with there drake. I love eve but every patch I find it harder to find a reason to login.
single nano is not a problem, oven 5 or 10 ofthem, i am tired of nanoblobs though, how to fight nano blob? with huggin blob? or 20 smartbomb fited MS campoing gate? this nerf is good, those wo want to fly 300bil nanpo wil still do itm, and still will kill ratters, but rest will need to think a ;little >_>
EDIT: and no i dont fly drakes or nanos >_>, i fly good neuron fitted blasterboats >_>only nano i use is sabre on dual overdrive
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
Voodys Doll
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 09:12:00 -
[3723]
As soon as scoutdrones are fast enough to catch ANY nanoed HAC, balance will be reestablished. Fit webber and scrambler drones on a deimos and enjoy the firework
|
Voodys Doll
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Posted - 2008.08.03 09:12:00 -
[3724]
As soon as scoutdrones are fast enough to catch ANY nanoed HAC, balance will be reestablished. Fit webber and scrambler drones on a deimos and enjoy the firework
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 09:53:00 -
[3725]
er webber drones are slow and too big for a deimos, and there is no such thing as a scramming drone....
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 09:53:00 -
[3726]
er webber drones are slow and too big for a deimos, and there is no such thing as a scramming drone....
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
MiIitary Genius
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:27:00 -
[3727]
Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum. |
MiIitary Genius
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:27:00 -
[3728]
Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum. |
Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:54:00 -
[3729]
they will WIN in voting for nanno nerf if i lear mine chins 2 tipe engilsh!!!
|
Vitelius
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:54:00 -
[3730]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Problem is that tanking in this game doesn't often achieve much. Since buffer tanks are SO much better than active tanks, HACs are just outclassed in that department by both BC and BS even though they are supposedly built to tank.
Now, becuase everyone and their mum fits plates and extenders, for a HAC to be worth using, it needs to put a crapton of damage on to cut through it and have a chance to live. However, they can't do that either, because pvp bs fits outclass them in that department too. So you are left trying to kill someone who has masses more HP than you and who is doing more damage.
How do you survive in this situation ? You use the advantage that a HAC has over a BS of course. SPEED.
Because seriously, if you make HACs sit and slug it out, they just loose so hard its not funny.
I mean there should be a reason to fly something that costs as much as a tier 2 BS, does less damage, tanks less well and has lower flexability and fitting choices. At the moment, HACs are great because they are able to use the one area they are better than BS to kill them. Take that away, and theres no reason to ever fly anything other than a tackler or a BS. All hail 'variety' in set-ups.
Well HACs still have an advantage over BS in roaming gang warfare - speed. Yes, speed. They're still faster than any BS, they align faster, they have faster warp speeds and can generally still dictate the engagement range over any BS.
Why slug it out? If you can still dictate the range, you can get out of warp disruption range and warp. Tacklers? Take them into consideration and get rid of them first. When the shit starts to hit the fan, warp out, rep while warping, warp back in and join the fight. Doesn't always work yeah but this is the way it's been done for a long time before nanos hit the streets the way they are now.
It is true that HACs cost serious isk and with their survivability getting lower it makes you think hard if it's worth flying one. I agree that they should be rebalanced, if they don't have speed then give them some tanky bonuses. Then again we'll see how the price ends up, changes always affect the prices, if it came down a bit HAC might still look like a viable option.
Small gang warfare will always be there though. Generally I miss the days when a small mixed gang of 5-10 ships met another mixed gang, no speed ***gotry involved. Everyone know ships were going to be lost, sometimes it was fun to even engage a slightly superior force and see if they're organized enough or can they get wiped out by a smaller force - the bottom line was that people accepted that when the engagement started a lot of ships were going to get blown up. Even when duking it out, maybe half of the ships could still warp out (not everyone is warp scrambled in a fight anyway), it's not a rule that if you get close and get shot at it means scramble and death. The bottom line is people should do less of the "pimping mah shiny ship" and then only fighting when they deem it safe to do so. Hop in your ship, accept that it's 50% chance that it comes back and if you can get a good fight, take it.
Quite frankly I think that many people have formed this fear of losing their precious ships, they have so much isk invested in them that they'd rather skip a very close fight than lose their ship. I also believe this has something to do with expensive setups to get extreme speed and just run when it gets hairy. It's the mentality of running and fearing every single loss, which has crept in with the nanos. It shouldn't be that way. The more ships blow up, the more fun people have. I enjoy a good even fight and it's bloody hard to find those these days. I still think the speed nerf is a bit too extensive but it's still better than no nerf at all. I hope it will change the small gang warfare to better.
---
|
|
Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:54:00 -
[3731]
they will WIN in voting for nanno nerf if i lear mine chins 2 tipe engilsh!!!
|
Vitelius
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:54:00 -
[3732]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Problem is that tanking in this game doesn't often achieve much. Since buffer tanks are SO much better than active tanks, HACs are just outclassed in that department by both BC and BS even though they are supposedly built to tank.
Now, becuase everyone and their mum fits plates and extenders, for a HAC to be worth using, it needs to put a crapton of damage on to cut through it and have a chance to live. However, they can't do that either, because pvp bs fits outclass them in that department too. So you are left trying to kill someone who has masses more HP than you and who is doing more damage.
How do you survive in this situation ? You use the advantage that a HAC has over a BS of course. SPEED.
Because seriously, if you make HACs sit and slug it out, they just loose so hard its not funny.
I mean there should be a reason to fly something that costs as much as a tier 2 BS, does less damage, tanks less well and has lower flexability and fitting choices. At the moment, HACs are great because they are able to use the one area they are better than BS to kill them. Take that away, and theres no reason to ever fly anything other than a tackler or a BS. All hail 'variety' in set-ups.
Well HACs still have an advantage over BS in roaming gang warfare - speed. Yes, speed. They're still faster than any BS, they align faster, they have faster warp speeds and can generally still dictate the engagement range over any BS.
Why slug it out? If you can still dictate the range, you can get out of warp disruption range and warp. Tacklers? Take them into consideration and get rid of them first. When the shit starts to hit the fan, warp out, rep while warping, warp back in and join the fight. Doesn't always work yeah but this is the way it's been done for a long time before nanos hit the streets the way they are now.
It is true that HACs cost serious isk and with their survivability getting lower it makes you think hard if it's worth flying one. I agree that they should be rebalanced, if they don't have speed then give them some tanky bonuses. Then again we'll see how the price ends up, changes always affect the prices, if it came down a bit HAC might still look like a viable option.
Small gang warfare will always be there though. Generally I miss the days when a small mixed gang of 5-10 ships met another mixed gang, no speed ***gotry involved. Everyone know ships were going to be lost, sometimes it was fun to even engage a slightly superior force and see if they're organized enough or can they get wiped out by a smaller force - the bottom line was that people accepted that when the engagement started a lot of ships were going to get blown up. Even when duking it out, maybe half of the ships could still warp out (not everyone is warp scrambled in a fight anyway), it's not a rule that if you get close and get shot at it means scramble and death. The bottom line is people should do less of the "pimping mah shiny ship" and then only fighting when they deem it safe to do so. Hop in your ship, accept that it's 50% chance that it comes back and if you can get a good fight, take it.
Quite frankly I think that many people have formed this fear of losing their precious ships, they have so much isk invested in them that they'd rather skip a very close fight than lose their ship. I also believe this has something to do with expensive setups to get extreme speed and just run when it gets hairy. It's the mentality of running and fearing every single loss, which has crept in with the nanos. It shouldn't be that way. The more ships blow up, the more fun people have. I enjoy a good even fight and it's bloody hard to find those these days. I still think the speed nerf is a bit too extensive but it's still better than no nerf at all. I hope it will change the small gang warfare to better.
---
|
Scadoo
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 14:23:00 -
[3733]
Edited by: Scadoo on 03/08/2008 14:42:35 Ok. Cant test on Sisi because my skills aren't there yet, but I really want to fly a Huginn/Rapier, and have invested 8 months into getting support skills to the point where I wont be totally hopeless in one. So here is my suggestion:
Replacing the TP bonus with a webber bonus would be preferred, but if that is just unthinkable how about making an electronic warfare rig that helps the ability of webbers to get back at least to the 80% webbing ability range if that is what you choose to use your rig slots for.
Oh... and missiles and rockets really do need to miss occasionally. Maybe, fuel permitting, they could come pack for another pass, but the ability to mitigate damage from missiles to at least some extent should be considered.
Thanks
|
Scadoo
The Comancheros
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 14:23:00 -
[3734]
Edited by: Scadoo on 03/08/2008 14:42:35 Ok. Cant test on Sisi because my skills aren't there yet, but I really want to fly a Huginn/Rapier, and have invested 8 months into getting support skills to the point where I wont be totally hopeless in one. So here is my suggestion:
Replacing the TP bonus with a webber bonus would be preferred, but if that is just unthinkable how about making an electronic warfare rig that helps the ability of webbers to get back at least to the 80% webbing ability range if that is what you choose to use your rig slots for.
Oh... and missiles and rockets really do need to miss occasionally. Maybe, fuel permitting, they could come pack for another pass, but the ability to mitigate damage from missiles to at least some extent should be considered.
Thanks
|
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 16:31:00 -
[3735]
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
|
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 16:31:00 -
[3736]
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:12:00 -
[3737]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:12:00 -
[3738]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:14:00 -
[3739]
Originally by: Red Thunder Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
If someone really wanted to they could do that now too. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:14:00 -
[3740]
Edited by: Esmenet on 03/08/2008 17:22:45
Originally by: Red Thunder Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
If someone really wanted to they could do that now too.
The question is if the small alliances will have any real fun after speed is nerfed. Vote against the nano nerf! |
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:35:00 -
[3741]
wel present situation is clearloy notr balanced every natoon have a good or almost good nano, mnatar - vaga, caldari -cebr, ama both haces can be nanoed well , galente - deo,os makes poor nano, but nano ishtar have full DPS regardles sof its oen speed ( drones anyone !) and only ONE! natin have anti nano ships, the matari huggin/rapier, for tackler going directly after most nanos its certain death, as the taversal is going to be around 0, and theyll be popped easily, so yes i am waiting till the " nerf " hits tq. and to be hinest i am againstr nerfing webs so much (lowering it 10-20% should do the trick) or twaking scram/disrupt ranges (though i love the anti mwd ability oif scram!).
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:35:00 -
[3742]
wel present situation is clearloy notr balanced every natoon have a good or almost good nano, mnatar - vaga, caldari -cebr, ama both haces can be nanoed well , galente - deo,os makes poor nano, but nano ishtar have full DPS regardles sof its oen speed ( drones anyone !) and only ONE! natin have anti nano ships, the matari huggin/rapier, for tackler going directly after most nanos its certain death, as the taversal is going to be around 0, and theyll be popped easily, so yes i am waiting till the " nerf " hits tq. and to be hinest i am againstr nerfing webs so much (lowering it 10-20% should do the trick) or twaking scram/disrupt ranges (though i love the anti mwd ability oif scram!).
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:20:00 -
[3743]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 03/08/2008 18:22:52
Originally by: MiIitary Genius riiiiight
nice way to line em up and knock em down for yourself.
its simple. speed needs nerfed. the way they are doing it is too drastic.
i guess just by me saying that means i fly nanos everywhere and everyone i know will fall to much better pvp pilots once they no longer have nanoships
OR, i've been playing this game for years (and *gasp* many other games) and it would be much wiser for them to achieve goal #1 first (get rid of ludirous speed) by -implementing additional stacking penalties -neft implants + boosters -bring all rigs in line with their module counterparts -correct the hull's base speeds across the board
all of the above are things the community have wanted. all of the above will accomplish what ccp wants to do.
really, those 3 things are definitely needed after trying that out on tranquility, i'm sure ppl would be happy.
goal #2, AFs: here is a concept only a couple logical ppl have mentioned in the past year(s) (by a couple i mean countless) IF YOU WANT TO FIX AFs, THEN FIX THEM. you dont need to change the entire game
goal #3 warp scramblers shutting off MWDs and nerfing webs???: this is a crack pot idea that, while interesting yes, is going to throw a wrench in the works of what balance we have achieved to date (which has taken 5 years of adjustments and tweaking). it's obviously a knee jerk reaction, and as i've said elsewhere, the very size and scope is evidence this has all been poorly thought through.
you cant tell me someone else at ccp didn't raise there hand and say 'are you sure about this?'. this is no trite adjustment, its nothing short of completely redoing the way we do combat.
It's frightening to think they may impliment something like this so poorly thought through, as everyone knows when things like this are changed, they aren't normally unchanged. And IF it sucks and doesn't feel like eve anymore... well we know what ppl will do then.
ok, now that i've contructed that logic. i'm ready for the *waaah waaah nano pilot your tears sustain me* *can i have your stuff?* and all the other great arguements ppl that, for whatever reason, are trying to eject a rational solution from this change.
//those that know me know, i dont fly nano, i fly dps :)
------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:20:00 -
[3744]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 03/08/2008 18:30:12 its simple. speed needs nerfed. the way they are doing it is too drastic.
i guess just by me saying that means i fly nanos everywhere and everyone i know will fall to much better pvp pilots once they no longer have nanoships
OR, i've been playing this game for years (and *gasp* many other games) and it would be much wiser for them to achieve goal #1 first (get rid of ludirous speed) by -implementing additional stacking penalties -neft implants + boosters -bring all rigs in line with their module counterparts -correct the hull's base speeds across the board
all of the above are things the community have wanted. all of the above will accomplish what ccp wants to do.
really, those 3 things are definitely needed after trying that out on tranquility, i'm sure ppl would be happy.
goal #2, AFs: here is a concept only a couple logical ppl have mentioned in the past year(s) (by a couple i mean countless) IF YOU WANT TO FIX AFs, THEN FIX THEM. you dont need to change the entire game
goal #3 warp scramblers shutting off MWDs and nerfing webs???: this is a crack pot idea that, while interesting yes, is going to throw a wrench in the works of what balance we have achieved to date (which has taken 5 years of adjustments and tweaking). it's obviously a knee jerk reaction, and as i've said elsewhere, the very size and scope is evidence this has all been poorly thought through.
you cant tell me someone else at ccp didn't raise there hand and say 'are you sure about this?'. this is no trite adjustment, its nothing short of completely redoing the way we do combat.
It's frightening to think they may impliment something like this so poorly thought through, as everyone knows when things like this are changed, they aren't normally unchanged. And IF it sucks and doesn't feel like eve anymore... well we know what ppl will do then.
ok, now that i've contructed that logic. i'm ready for the *waaah waaah nano pilot your tears sustain me* *can i have your stuff?* and all the other great arguements ppl that, for whatever reason, are trying to eject a rational solution from this change.
//those that know me know, i dont fly nano, i fly dps :)
------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Otellus
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:25:00 -
[3745]
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
|
Otellus
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:25:00 -
[3746]
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:34:00 -
[3747]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 03/08/2008 18:34:28
Its amazing how many ppl thing their lives will be so much better and their pvp skills will improve if this r*etarded nerf goes through.
Here is the scoop guys:
1. You suck because you never trained or were never trained properly.
2. Its not nano or anything else that makes you bad at pvp its just you and your lazy and ignorant attitude.
3. As long as you look for things in eve to blame other than the fact that you cannot be bothered to get better you will never improve and others will always be better.
5. Small alliances, big alliances, corps or just a few buddies no matter the size of who you have got as long as you blame something other than yourself you will never get better.
NANO HAS BEEN HERE FOR AGES AND PPL HAVE BEEN USING IT AND FIGHTING IT FOR JUST AS LONG. IF YOU CANNOT BEAT OR REPLICATE IT BY NOW THEN YOU WILL ALWAYS BE USELESS AT PLAYING EV AND BLAMING THE STYLES OF FIGHTING IN EVE IS JUST SELF DECEPTION.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:34:00 -
[3748]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
i just wanted to say:
INSTANT, UNDESTROYABLE DAMAGE
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:34:00 -
[3749]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 03/08/2008 18:38:18
Its amazing how many ppl thing their lives will be so much better and their pvp skills will improve if this r*etarded nerf goes through.
Here is the scoop guys:
1. You suck because you never trained or were never trained properly.
2. Its not nano or anything else that makes you bad at pvp its just you and your lazy and ignorant attitude.
3. As long as you look for things in eve to blame other than the fact that you cannot be bothered to get better you will never improve and others will always be better.
5. Small alliances, big alliances, corps or just a few buddies no matter the size of who you have got as long as you blame something other than yourself you will never get better.
NANO HAS BEEN HERE FOR AGES AND PPL HAVE BEEN USING IT AND FIGHTING IT FOR JUST AS LONG. IF YOU CANNOT BEAT OR REPLICATE IT BY NOW THEN YOU WILL ALWAYS BE USELESS AT PLAYING EVE, AND BLAMING THE STYLES OF FIGHTING IN EVE IS JUST SELF DECEPTION.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:34:00 -
[3750]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
i just wanted to say:
INSTANT, UNDESTROYABLE DAMAGE
|
|
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:37:00 -
[3751]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
i just wanted to say:
INSTANT, UNDESTROYABLE DAMAGE
LOL has somebody been flying the caldari dwead against a few SBing carriers?.
Or is he jus shoooopid?.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:37:00 -
[3752]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
i just wanted to say:
INSTANT, UNDESTROYABLE DAMAGE
LOL has somebody been flying the caldari dwead against a few SBing carriers?.
Or is he jus shoooopid?.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:28:00 -
[3753]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
vagas do damage at 16km, i dont see how its too dangerous since not too many people have realised how useful neuts are yet
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:28:00 -
[3754]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: MiIitary Genius Ugh, this hotbed of misinformation, lies and flaming still going?
Lets try some assumtions, because if you can see _exactly_ how the game would be if this goes ahead you should open a top rate phone line and change your name to mystic smeg.
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that more and more 0.0 pilots will be flying nano ships. This is balanced?
If the rebalancing does not go through we can be pretty much certain that the price of snakes and top faction and officer mods used for nanoing will continue to rise so that the next time CCP mentions speed rebalancing people will be going on about their 10 billion isk investment.
If the rebalancing goes through in a watered down version where vagas can do 7km/s and the others do significantly less, what do you think all the nano pilots will be flying in a month or two? (answer for the numptys = vagabonds)
If the rebalancing goes ahead with no significant changes, people will have to adjust their modus operandi and some alliances will lose quite a lot space due to not being able to protect themselves with nanos any more.
I do agree with some of the posters - scram putting two points as well as turning off mwd is not good, just turning off the mwd is a good idea though. T2 and best faction webs should be 70% minimum.
You really are clueless aren't you? Vagabonds are only good for a few things, heavy tacklers, ripping up inties and ganking lone ratters. Vagabonds alone will not be a good nanogang in terms of dealing damage. And if you think that alliances will lose space due to not being able to field nanos you're an idiot. Space defence and attack is not done with nanos.
er vagas do deal damage, they are one of the most useful nanos in fights since they do instant, undestroyable damage. Also i can see what he means, small alliances who live in npc regions etc will die since the enemy can just blob them all the time
At what range do vagas do damage? How smart is it to go that close?
vagas do damage at 16km, i dont see how its too dangerous since not too many people have realised how useful neuts are yet
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:29:00 -
[3755]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 03/08/2008 18:38:18
Its amazing how many ppl thing their lives will be so much better and their pvp skills will improve if this r*etarded nerf goes through.
Here is the scoop guys:
1. You suck because you never trained or were never trained properly.
2. Its not nano or anything else that makes you bad at pvp its just you and your lazy and ignorant attitude.
3. As long as you look for things in eve to blame other than the fact that you cannot be bothered to get better you will never improve and others will always be better.
5. Small alliances, big alliances, corps or just a few buddies no matter the size of who you have got as long as you blame something other than yourself you will never get better.
NANO HAS BEEN HERE FOR AGES AND PPL HAVE BEEN USING IT AND FIGHTING IT FOR JUST AS LONG. IF YOU CANNOT BEAT OR REPLICATE IT BY NOW THEN YOU WILL ALWAYS BE USELESS AT PLAYING EVE, AND BLAMING THE STYLES OF FIGHTING IN EVE IS JUST SELF DECEPTION.
this sums up most of the posters here pretty well
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:29:00 -
[3756]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 03/08/2008 18:38:18
Its amazing how many ppl thing their lives will be so much better and their pvp skills will improve if this r*etarded nerf goes through.
Here is the scoop guys:
1. You suck because you never trained or were never trained properly.
2. Its not nano or anything else that makes you bad at pvp its just you and your lazy and ignorant attitude.
3. As long as you look for things in eve to blame other than the fact that you cannot be bothered to get better you will never improve and others will always be better.
5. Small alliances, big alliances, corps or just a few buddies no matter the size of who you have got as long as you blame something other than yourself you will never get better.
NANO HAS BEEN HERE FOR AGES AND PPL HAVE BEEN USING IT AND FIGHTING IT FOR JUST AS LONG. IF YOU CANNOT BEAT OR REPLICATE IT BY NOW THEN YOU WILL ALWAYS BE USELESS AT PLAYING EVE, AND BLAMING THE STYLES OF FIGHTING IN EVE IS JUST SELF DECEPTION.
this sums up most of the posters here pretty well
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Adacanavar
Caldari Void Angels The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:38:00 -
[3757]
I'm glad the speed tanking is being looked at but it does not seem as if the dev blog covers what i consider the main issue for it the fact that no matter how fast the ship goes when you get hit by something bigger than you. You'll get shredded. eample being:a frigate traveling at 6km/s actually gets hit by a shot from a large hybrid turret the bullet is the same size as the frigate. so technically shouldn't the frigate detonate rather than shrugging off the damage. It works the same with missles from my understanding all missles are nuclear warheads or the futurictic equivalent how is it that a ship can outrun the blast of a nuc when it takes a millisecond to hit its total blast radius. as seen even by the graphic when you strike a ship with a torpedo. the rings always outrun the ship thats orbiting you. Not to mention the guidince systems so a smart pilot aka any one with a brain in there skull can easily time a detonation to strike when and where they please with the push of a button while i understand not hitting them every time when you fly into a field of shrapnel in a ship traveling so fast you would get torn apart. Maybe thats just me the lvl on unrealisem when it comes to speed tanking is what makes it so effective in my personal opinion not the speed they are going. Death comes to us all its how we meet it that truly matters. |
Adacanavar
Caldari Void Angels The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:38:00 -
[3758]
I'm glad the speed tanking is being looked at but it does not seem as if the dev blog covers what i consider the main issue for it the fact that no matter how fast the ship goes when you get hit by something bigger than you. You'll get shredded. eample being:a frigate traveling at 6km/s actually gets hit by a shot from a large hybrid turret the bullet is the same size as the frigate. so technically shouldn't the frigate detonate rather than shrugging off the damage. It works the same with missles from my understanding all missles are nuclear warheads or the futurictic equivalent how is it that a ship can outrun the blast of a nuc when it takes a millisecond to hit its total blast radius. as seen even by the graphic when you strike a ship with a torpedo. the rings always outrun the ship thats orbiting you. Not to mention the guidince systems so a smart pilot aka any one with a brain in there skull can easily time a detonation to strike when and where they please with the push of a button while i understand not hitting them every time when you fly into a field of shrapnel in a ship traveling so fast you would get torn apart. Maybe thats just me the lvl on unrealisem when it comes to speed tanking is what makes it so effective in my personal opinion not the speed they are going. Death comes to us all its how we meet it that truly matters. |
Adacanavar
Caldari Void Angels The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 20:13:00 -
[3759]
in response to the last part of the blog guerilla warfare must remain viable. While speed tanking is the best way to execute guerilla warfare at the moment that is only because the ships you designed for guerilla warfare aka stealth bombers and black ops ships suck so bad with there having to uncloak in order to warp peopel know you are there as well as the local channel letting them know someone is in system with them. Makeing these ships all but worthless for the tactic. No offense intended to the devs (well maybe a little) but stop doing things to please a select few people aka carebears and do changes to pvp that actually make since. main example being the drone bay nerf as long as you all continue to sing the nerf bat uncontrollable at everything that upsets a few people you'll keep making small gang warefare impossible as well as the solo pirateing/pvp. And also the short range scrammers deactivating mwd's isn't really a solution guys unless your in a speed tank you aren't going to get that close to the other guy and if you are then you have the same thing coming back at you so it makes it completly idiotic.
webber nerf Oh yes devs lets make it even better to speed tank the one weapon that truly kicks the crap out of the speed tanker lets take that away and make it less viable. since any speed tanker worth there salt orbits outside the range of a webber anyway this makes the least since out of any of hte nerfs you propose if a speed tanker is dumb enough to fall victim to a web they deserve to get blown up don't nerf it just cause you have been caught by it in the past. Polycarbons: Ok at the amount of isk it takes to buy one of these a poly carbon should kick ass if you wanna risk one or three of them on a ship be my guest to do so it makes no since to nerf something that costs more than most of the ships its being put on. Snake set: This is probably the one thing on the list i agree with on the nerf. snake sets are overpowerd to the extreme they always have been if i had my way this set would just be eleminated from the game and those that already have it jacked in recompensed for the normal price of them. Nothing should be able to make a bs fly as fast as a snake set does or at least its effect should be limited to certain class's of ship. but reducing its effectiveness still doesn't really do that much guys you can do better than this.
all in all devs should stop listening to the carebears i think thats probably where every pvp nerf has come from in eve (the peopel that aren't even involved) give us back the crap you keep nerfing make small gang warfare viable again and stop fixing the crap that doesn't need to be fixed and fix the damn lag and remove local.
Death comes to us all its how we meet it that truly matters. |
Adacanavar
Caldari Void Angels The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 20:13:00 -
[3760]
in response to the last part of the blog guerilla warfare must remain viable. While speed tanking is the best way to execute guerilla warfare at the moment that is only because the ships you designed for guerilla warfare aka stealth bombers and black ops ships suck so bad with there having to uncloak in order to warp peopel know you are there as well as the local channel letting them know someone is in system with them. Makeing these ships all but worthless for the tactic. No offense intended to the devs (well maybe a little) but stop doing things to please a select few people aka carebears and do changes to pvp that actually make since. main example being the drone bay nerf as long as you all continue to sing the nerf bat uncontrollable at everything that upsets a few people you'll keep making small gang warefare impossible as well as the solo pirateing/pvp. And also the short range scrammers deactivating mwd's isn't really a solution guys unless your in a speed tank you aren't going to get that close to the other guy and if you are then you have the same thing coming back at you so it makes it completly idiotic.
webber nerf Oh yes devs lets make it even better to speed tank the one weapon that truly kicks the crap out of the speed tanker lets take that away and make it less viable. since any speed tanker worth there salt orbits outside the range of a webber anyway this makes the least since out of any of hte nerfs you propose if a speed tanker is dumb enough to fall victim to a web they deserve to get blown up don't nerf it just cause you have been caught by it in the past. Polycarbons: Ok at the amount of isk it takes to buy one of these a poly carbon should kick ass if you wanna risk one or three of them on a ship be my guest to do so it makes no since to nerf something that costs more than most of the ships its being put on. Snake set: This is probably the one thing on the list i agree with on the nerf. snake sets are overpowerd to the extreme they always have been if i had my way this set would just be eleminated from the game and those that already have it jacked in recompensed for the normal price of them. Nothing should be able to make a bs fly as fast as a snake set does or at least its effect should be limited to certain class's of ship. but reducing its effectiveness still doesn't really do that much guys you can do better than this.
all in all devs should stop listening to the carebears i think thats probably where every pvp nerf has come from in eve (the peopel that aren't even involved) give us back the crap you keep nerfing make small gang warfare viable again and stop fixing the crap that doesn't need to be fixed and fix the damn lag and remove local.
Death comes to us all its how we meet it that truly matters. |
|
Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:17:00 -
[3761]
Trinyel > come back after the patch and we will see how good your little gang is this *****
YEAAAAAAAA NERF MEEEEEE THEY HAWE 60 PPL WE HAWE 10 AND HE NEAD NERF YEAAAAAA
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Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:17:00 -
[3762]
Trinyel > come back after the patch and we will see how good your little gang is this *****
YEAAAAAAAA NERF MEEEEEE THEY HAWE 60 PPL WE HAWE 10 AND HE NEAD NERF YEAAAAAA
|
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:29:00 -
[3763]
While we are nerfing things... i think a kestrel should be able to take out a mothership... they are so overpowerd... plz ccp do something about this unbalanced pvp....
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:29:00 -
[3764]
While we are nerfing things... i think a kestrel should be able to take out a mothership... they are so overpowerd... plz ccp do something about this unbalanced pvp....
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:35:00 -
[3765]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 03/08/2008 23:34:57 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894
a better solution
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:35:00 -
[3766]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 03/08/2008 23:34:57 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894
a better solution
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:45:00 -
[3767]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 03/08/2008 23:45:20
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:45:00 -
[3768]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 03/08/2008 23:45:20
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Draco
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:16:00 -
[3769]
I personally think that only the proposed change to the scramblers is the only problem here. I see nothing else wrong at all. Nanoships do need be taken down a little, but still be able to compare to a good tanked ship, but in the fact that it is hard to hit it, unless countered with webs (which lower speed) or nuets/nos to kill the cap that is used by the MWD or AB.
Webs should be the main counter to a speed tanked ship, not something that prevents warping.
For example, what if I were flying a large transport and fitted a MWD on it to try to get out of range of a Tackler with a point on it. If it has a 2 point it makes it no use now and plus my ship is dead as well since I cannot warp. That makes it me unable to do ANYTHING to get out of that trap.
With the current TQ scramblers it will only prevent me from warping and I still have a change of running away with my MWD. I think would kill one huge factor of MWD, getting out of a hot spot where you are getting it bad or are out numbered and need to move out of scrammer range to warp off. ABs will not cut it with such a slow ship as a Transport.
The new change would make tackling larger ships VERY easy since MWD would be useless and ABs even more so since it would get you about 300m/s with even a AB and a non-nano fitting. That is still below the base speed of an interceptor, giving the larger ship a much less chance of getting away.
In effect, you are making the scrambler into two items, a super webbifer and two warp disruptors.
Please reconsider the change on warp scramblers as it makes even least reasonable sence of all the suggestions and that it is two items in one. Either make two different items, one to break MWDs and keep the scrambler as it is, or fix webs to have a falloff, in which is has less effect, thus giving a tackler the change to catch a faster ship, or has some have said let webs have scripts.
I will not respond to anyone commenting on my post besides a Dev.
Thanks for reading,
Draco
|
Red Draco
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:16:00 -
[3770]
I personally think that only the proposed change to the scramblers is the only problem here. I see nothing else wrong at all. Nanoships do need be taken down a little, but still be able to compare to a good tanked ship, but in the fact that it is hard to hit it, unless countered with webs (which lower speed) or nuets/nos to kill the cap that is used by the MWD or AB.
Webs should be the main counter to a speed tanked ship, not something that prevents warping.
For example, what if I were flying a large transport and fitted a MWD on it to try to get out of range of a Tackler with a point on it. If it has a 2 point it makes it no use now and plus my ship is dead as well since I cannot warp. That makes it me unable to do ANYTHING to get out of that trap.
With the current TQ scramblers it will only prevent me from warping and I still have a change of running away with my MWD. I think would kill one huge factor of MWD, getting out of a hot spot where you are getting it bad or are out numbered and need to move out of scrammer range to warp off. ABs will not cut it with such a slow ship as a Transport.
The new change would make tackling larger ships VERY easy since MWD would be useless and ABs even more so since it would get you about 300m/s with even a AB and a non-nano fitting. That is still below the base speed of an interceptor, giving the larger ship a much less chance of getting away.
In effect, you are making the scrambler into two items, a super webbifer and two warp disruptors.
Please reconsider the change on warp scramblers as it makes even least reasonable sence of all the suggestions and that it is two items in one. Either make two different items, one to break MWDs and keep the scrambler as it is, or fix webs to have a falloff, in which is has less effect, thus giving a tackler the change to catch a faster ship, or has some have said let webs have scripts.
I will not respond to anyone commenting on my post besides a Dev.
Thanks for reading,
Draco
|
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FatalDeception
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:30:00 -
[3771]
All I can say is - Good Going CCP =]
When I started playing this game it was said that Caldari were the crappest at PVP. And now the Caldari reign supreme!
In all seriousness though, nano really required a nerf - whether or not this was the right way to do it is up to us to decide when we've tried it..
|
FatalDeception
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 03:30:00 -
[3772]
All I can say is - Good Going CCP =]
When I started playing this game it was said that Caldari were the crappest at PVP. And now the Caldari reign supreme!
In all seriousness though, nano really required a nerf - whether or not this was the right way to do it is up to us to decide when we've tried it..
|
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 05:46:00 -
[3773]
Originally by: FatalDeception All I can say is - Good Going CCP =]
When I started playing this game it was said that Caldari were the crappest at PVP. And now the Caldari reign supreme!
In all seriousness though, nano really required a nerf - whether or not this was the right way to do it is up to us to decide when we've tried it..
horse shit... clearly no discernable intelligence here. nanos didnt need to be touched, 15km/s speed cap... done
|
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 05:46:00 -
[3774]
Originally by: FatalDeception All I can say is - Good Going CCP =]
When I started playing this game it was said that Caldari were the crappest at PVP. And now the Caldari reign supreme!
In all seriousness though, nano really required a nerf - whether or not this was the right way to do it is up to us to decide when we've tried it..
horse shit... clearly no discernable intelligence here. nanos didnt need to be touched, 15km/s speed cap... done
|
Super Failure69
Sort Your Life Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 08:24:00 -
[3775]
My Poem
Sort Your Life Out Triumvirate. Your tears. So sweet. I like.
|
Super Failure69
Sort Your Life Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 08:24:00 -
[3776]
My Poem
Sort Your Life Out Triumvirate. Your tears. So sweet. I like.
|
Woa Scrap
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 10:25:00 -
[3777]
Edited by: Woa Scrap on 04/08/2008 10:25:43 why not just script the scrambler, one script jam a microwarpdrive and the other prevent warps? or make a new module for MWD-dampening/jamming or something like that (which probably should be very cap-intensive)? more fun with more options than with less i'd say
i usually got no idea
|
Woa Scrap
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 10:25:00 -
[3778]
Edited by: Woa Scrap on 04/08/2008 10:25:43 why not just script the scrambler, one script jam a microwarpdrive and the other prevent warps? or make a new module for MWD-dampening/jamming or something like that (which probably should be very cap-intensive)? more fun with more options than with less i'd say
i usually got no idea
|
MMXMMX
Caldari Resistance is Futile United Freemen Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:58:00 -
[3779]
This Nerf is not big inuf but its a start .
CCP please do more nerf on the nanos its just not inuf .
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MMXMMX
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:58:00 -
[3780]
This Nerf is not big inuf but its a start .
CCP please do more nerf on the nanos its just not inuf .
|
|
Veryez
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 12:56:00 -
[3781]
In general I don't like nerfs, that being said yes changes to nano's needs to happen. I don't think changing the properties of warp scramblers is bad, but combined with the other changes it shifts the game too much towards smaller ship combat. I'll test it out on sisi to draw my final conclusions.
However the web changes are only half done. I like the 50% to 60% idea, but NOT with only a 10k range. I propose a change in web range t1 = 15k, t1 named = 20k, t2 = 25k. Reduced strength webs need to work at warp disrupter ranges.
|
Artemis
Xenobytes Stain Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 12:56:00 -
[3782]
I have only 1 question. Why new vagabond have _agility_ of a pregnant crocodile?
|
Veryez
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 12:56:00 -
[3783]
In general I don't like nerfs, that being said yes changes to nano's needs to happen. I don't think changing the properties of warp scramblers is bad, but combined with the other changes it shifts the game too much towards smaller ship combat. I'll test it out on sisi to draw my final conclusions.
However the web changes are only half done. I like the 50% to 60% idea, but NOT with only a 10k range. I propose a change in web range t1 = 15k, t1 named = 20k, t2 = 25k. Reduced strength webs need to work at warp disrupter ranges.
|
Artemis
Xenobytes Stain Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 12:56:00 -
[3784]
I have only 1 question. Why new vagabond have _agility_ of a pregnant crocodile?
|
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:02:00 -
[3785]
Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
|
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:02:00 -
[3786]
Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:21:00 -
[3787]
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
people will use tank HACs fine. you will probably see more of them. don't worry.
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:21:00 -
[3788]
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
people will use tank HACs fine. you will probably see more of them. don't worry.
|
Trail Katron
Minmatar Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:29:00 -
[3789]
Edited by: Trail Katron on 04/08/2008 13:29:43 way to give in to the carebears, faction phailware guys ccp worse. idea. evar.
way to kill the vagabond with which has compared to other hacs very low armor, hull and shield
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Trail Katron
Minmatar Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:29:00 -
[3790]
Edited by: Trail Katron on 04/08/2008 13:29:43 way to give in to the carebears, faction phailware guys ccp worse. idea. evar.
way to kill the vagabond with which has compared to other hacs very low armor, hull and shield
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:37:00 -
[3791]
[Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
|
Artemis
Xenobytes Stain Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:54:00 -
[3792]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield]
<skipped>
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
No MWD, no disruptor, faction modules, T2 rigs, nosferatu... Please, do not write about pvp more. |
Artemis
Xenobytes Stain Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:54:00 -
[3793]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield]
<skipped>
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
No MWD, no disruptor, faction modules, T2 rigs, nosferatu... Please, do not write about pvp more. |
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 14:09:00 -
[3794]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
Let me guess this is your alt nozh. And thats about a 500 mil fitting u have there. Why would i use that fitting when a drake can tank more and cost about 1/5 the cost.
|
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 14:09:00 -
[3795]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
Let me guess this is your alt nozh. And thats about a 500 mil fitting u have there. Why would i use that fitting when a drake can tank more and cost about 1/5 the cost.
|
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 15:44:00 -
[3796]
My Ishtar is equipped with the following,
ps stabwounds is terrible
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising Brotherhood of Nod.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 15:44:00 -
[3797]
My Ishtar is equipped with the following,
ps stabwounds is terrible
|
Gragnor
Groove Inc
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 15:58:00 -
[3798]
I just tried out the "new vagabond". The horrific conclusion - If you do not review these changes you have destroyed Minmatar as a viable PvP race for anything over a cruiser.
Minmatar capitals are the worst in the game. Minmatar BS are underpowered; you REFUSE to admit the Typhoon basic design is fundamentally flawed. It is no longer quite as agile or fastest - what were you trying to achieve here? The Tempest remains a bit of this and a bit of that - NO tank whatsoever. As for the Malestrom, its still stupid. Whoever heard of a slow, tanking tub of lard for a guerilla warfare specialist race?
Minmatar is the race of agility and speed, high alpha, should be high dps but it isn't and reasonable but comparatively weak tanks. If this goes ahead MATAR (May As well Train for the Amarr Race) certainly fits.
Nanosilliness was the target of these changes yet what you have done goes to to the core of playability. How can you get the changes so out of kilter? How could put forward proposals you know are simply far to out of whack to be accepted? Why alienate your entire player base with STUPID over the top changes, when all that was needed was tweaking to reduce speeds and prevent silly outcomes?
Why are you trying to make Eve fights all the same? Warp in at 100km and whale away, align and warp out and pray the lag monster doesn't get you?
|
Gragnor
Groove Inc
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 15:58:00 -
[3799]
I just tried out the "new vagabond". The horrific conclusion - If you do not review these changes you have destroyed Minmatar as a viable PvP race for anything over a cruiser.
Minmatar capitals are the worst in the game. Minmatar BS are underpowered; you REFUSE to admit the Typhoon basic design is fundamentally flawed. It is no longer quite as agile or fastest - what were you trying to achieve here? The Tempest remains a bit of this and a bit of that - NO tank whatsoever. As for the Malestrom, its still stupid. Whoever heard of a slow, tanking tub of lard for a guerilla warfare specialist race?
Minmatar is the race of agility and speed, high alpha, should be high dps but it isn't and reasonable but comparatively weak tanks. If this goes ahead MATAR (May As well Train for the Amarr Race) certainly fits.
Nanosilliness was the target of these changes yet what you have done goes to to the core of playability. How can you get the changes so out of kilter? How could put forward proposals you know are simply far to out of whack to be accepted? Why alienate your entire player base with STUPID over the top changes, when all that was needed was tweaking to reduce speeds and prevent silly outcomes?
Why are you trying to make Eve fights all the same? Warp in at 100km and whale away, align and warp out and pray the lag monster doesn't get you?
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:04:00 -
[3800]
Originally by: Gragnor
Minmatar capitals are the worst in the game.
actually, the minnie carrier is best to have in a carrier ball due to its boni and the naglfer is vertical. if that counts
everything else you said however is pretty accurate. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:04:00 -
[3801]
Originally by: Gragnor
Minmatar capitals are the worst in the game.
actually, the minnie carrier is best to have in a carrier ball due to its boni and the naglfer is vertical. if that counts
everything else you said however is pretty accurate. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Dracorimus
Caldari Edge Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:05:00 -
[3802]
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........
Dont believe me ?
Here: Ceptor 1 Here: Ceptor 2 Here: Ceptor 3
Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm - Die faster damnit! |
Dracorimus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:05:00 -
[3803]
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........
Dont believe me ?
Here: Ceptor 1 Here: Ceptor 2 Here: Ceptor 3
Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm . ≡v≡ powered |
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:13:00 -
[3804]
Originally by: Dracorimus
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........
Dont believe me ?
Here: Ceptor 1 Here: Ceptor 2 Here: Ceptor 3
Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm
those ceptor pilots were probably afk
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:13:00 -
[3805]
Originally by: Dracorimus
Originally by: L Cross Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28 With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.
And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.
CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.
Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.
IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.
Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!
Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........
Dont believe me ?
Here: Ceptor 1 Here: Ceptor 2 Here: Ceptor 3
Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm
those ceptor pilots were probably afk
|
Dracorimus
Caldari Edge Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:32:00 -
[3806]
You are a strange fellow aren't you
These were all in combat you silly boy - Die faster damnit! |
Dracorimus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:32:00 -
[3807]
You are a strange fellow aren't you
These were all in combat you silly boy . ≡v≡ powered |
Essque
Starlancers
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 17:06:00 -
[3808]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
After posting this setup I think you need say nothing more. Everything is clear now. I have no further questions. Please, fit all your HACs like that. Not that it would matter how you fit them, but we usually love to see such 'unconventional' setups. On the killboard. This one's even a bit better than the Vengeance with 4 tracking enhancers that we killed a couple of weeks ago.
Please, don't forget the faction mods.
|
Essque
Starlancers
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 17:06:00 -
[3809]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
After posting this setup I think you need say nothing more. Everything is clear now. I have no further questions. Please, fit all your HACs like that. Not that it would matter how you fit them, but we usually love to see such 'unconventional' setups. On the killboard. This one's even a bit better than the Vengeance with 4 tracking enhancers that we killed a couple of weeks ago.
Please, don't forget the faction mods.
|
Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:14:00 -
[3810]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
didnt wont 2 quote you because 2 many alredy did..but..I CANT REZIST AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH
YES CCP please nerf for player like this one he make NPC ISHTAR/DRAKE for caching npc on belt
wher is warp d wher is mwd(or ab after patch) wher is web WHER IS WHER IS WHERRRRR DONT POST ANYMORE PLEASEE GO PLAY WITH RAVEN ON BELT
NOW!!!
|
|
Lee ChanKa
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:14:00 -
[3811]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
didnt wont 2 quote you because 2 many alredy did..but..I CANT REZIST AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH
YES CCP please nerf for player like this one he make NPC ISHTAR/DRAKE for caching npc on belt
wher is warp d wher is mwd(or ab after patch) wher is web WHER IS WHER IS WHERRRRR DONT POST ANYMORE PLEASEE GO PLAY WITH RAVEN ON BELT
NOW!!!
|
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:20:00 -
[3812]
Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:20:00 -
[3813]
Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really? ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:25:00 -
[3814]
downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been removed, and hacs are no longer worth flying. Also the entire minmatar race sucks now. Enough reasons for ya?
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:25:00 -
[3815]
downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been removed, and hacs are no longer worth flying. Also the entire minmatar race sucks now. Enough reasons for ya?
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:28:00 -
[3816]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 04/08/2008 19:29:13
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been changed
Fixed.
Sometimes you just have to roll with the flow...
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:28:00 -
[3817]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 04/08/2008 19:29:13
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been changed
Fixed.
Sometimes you just have to roll with the flow...
------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:35:00 -
[3818]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 04/08/2008 19:29:13
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been changed
Fixed.
Sometimes you just have to roll with the flow...
erm no, removed. You can no longer speed tank a ship, so that tactic is dead. Instead if you still want to use a hac you must tank it and try to blob your target.
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:35:00 -
[3819]
its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so.... in any event i agree with you matari's are going to be ruined and almost all the HAC but like 3 are going to be shite not to mention what this will do to minm invention so.... there is alot more to think about besides just PvP, industry will be effected as well.
I agree nano does need a change... but this is over doing it. Speed caps are the best way no super speeds if a ship can only go so fast / as for u noobs/carbears if you cant missle spam us cry about it and train like we did.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:35:00 -
[3820]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 04/08/2008 19:29:13
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been changed
Fixed.
Sometimes you just have to roll with the flow...
erm no, removed. You can no longer speed tank a ship, so that tactic is dead. Instead if you still want to use a hac you must tank it and try to blob your target.
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
|
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:35:00 -
[3821]
its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so.... in any event i agree with you matari's are going to be ruined and almost all the HAC but like 3 are going to be shite not to mention what this will do to minm invention so.... there is alot more to think about besides just PvP, industry will be effected as well.
I agree nano does need a change... but this is over doing it. Speed caps are the best way no super speeds if a ship can only go so fast / as for u noobs/carbears if you cant missle spam us cry about it and train like we did.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:39:00 -
[3822]
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so.... in any event i agree with you matari's are going to be ruined and almost all the HAC but like 3 are going to be shite not to mention what this will do to minm invention so.... there is alot more to think about besides just PvP, industry will be effected as well.
I agree nano does need a change... but this is over doing it. Speed caps are the best way no super speeds if a ship can only go so fast / as for u noobs/carbears if you cant missle spam us cry about it and train like we did.
Yup, i agree that caps are a much better option, so i did some thinking: check this out http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894&page=1
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:39:00 -
[3823]
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so.... in any event i agree with you matari's are going to be ruined and almost all the HAC but like 3 are going to be shite not to mention what this will do to minm invention so.... there is alot more to think about besides just PvP, industry will be effected as well.
I agree nano does need a change... but this is over doing it. Speed caps are the best way no super speeds if a ship can only go so fast / as for u noobs/carbears if you cant missle spam us cry about it and train like we did.
Yup, i agree that caps are a much better option, so i did some thinking: check this out http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894&page=1
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:57:00 -
[3824]
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever...
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 19:57:00 -
[3825]
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever... ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:04:00 -
[3826]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
quoting for hilarity. GOGO LET'S KILL RATS! -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:04:00 -
[3827]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
quoting for hilarity. GOGO LET'S KILL RATS! -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:06:00 -
[3828]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever...
so anything t2 there exept the ships LOL And i agree you little troll you have no clue so keep blabing. I have a caldari alt as well that this doesnt affect at all so who cares the point here is that this nerf is too big no ones saying that it doesnt need a nerf just saying this nerf effects too much. They are also making it a huge deal when it doesnt need to be its called a speed cap plain and simple bring everything in line due to its mass, this seems to be the best action
|
Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:06:00 -
[3829]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever...
so anything t2 there exept the ships LOL And i agree you little troll you have no clue so keep blabing. I have a caldari alt as well that this doesnt affect at all so who cares the point here is that this nerf is too big no ones saying that it doesnt need a nerf just saying this nerf effects too much. They are also making it a huge deal when it doesnt need to be its called a speed cap plain and simple bring everything in line due to its mass, this seems to be the best action
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 21:46:00 -
[3830]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 04/08/2008 21:45:55
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever...
i agree with you there, you dont seem to know too much, with one of the main things being that SP dont effect how much of a noob you are at all. I know people with 7mil sp who would take on multiple hostiles in equal ships and still win, but i also know people with 40mil sp who, to put it simply, suck in every way possible. Im guessing your in that catagory until i get further proof
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 21:46:00 -
[3831]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 04/08/2008 21:45:55
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Abrynn its ok red thunder he's just a noob who has no clue whats going on and has prolly never ever pvp'd because he's using an alt to post so....
Yep, between my mains I can fly all four races HAC and recon. I can shield, armour and speed tank and use all the weapon systems and ECM. So I'm not really bothered what they nerf or boost because I'll just fly something else and fly in a different way. It's called adapting. When the next nerf hits I'll just change again.
So your right, I have no clue whatsoever...
i agree with you there, you dont seem to know too much, with one of the main things being that SP dont effect how much of a noob you are at all. I know people with 7mil sp who would take on multiple hostiles in equal ships and still win, but i also know people with 40mil sp who, to put it simply, suck in every way possible. Im guessing your in that catagory until i get further proof
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Miss Rumpelstilzchen
Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 22:13:00 -
[3832]
all right .. more then 1 week ago, since the blog are relaest .. can we get a statmend form CCP?
what you plan to to now? a huge amount of very good ideas are postet.
i want a statmant..pleace..
thanks
|
Miss Rumpelstilzchen
Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 22:13:00 -
[3833]
all right .. more then 1 week ago, since the blog are relaest .. can we get a statmend form CCP?
what you plan to to now? a huge amount of very good ideas are postet.
i want a statmant..pleace..
thanks
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:21:00 -
[3834]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 04/08/2008 23:21:36
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen all right .. more then 1 week ago, since the blog are relaest .. can we get a statmend form CCP?
what you plan to to now? a huge amount of very good ideas are postet.
i want a statmant..pleace..
thanks
Typing this in English so we can maybe get a response:
Alright, its been more than a week since the dev blog was released, can we get a statement from CCP?
What do you plan to do now? We have posted quite a few very good ideas, and some terrible, terrible ship fittings.
I want a statement, please.
Thanks.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:21:00 -
[3835]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 04/08/2008 23:21:36
Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen all right .. more then 1 week ago, since the blog are relaest .. can we get a statmend form CCP?
what you plan to to now? a huge amount of very good ideas are postet.
i want a statmant..pleace..
thanks
Typing this in English so we can maybe get a response:
Alright, its been more than a week since the dev blog was released, can we get a statement from CCP?
What do you plan to do now? We have posted quite a few very good ideas, and some terrible, terrible ship fittings.
I want a statement, please.
Thanks.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:39:00 -
[3836]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
/thread
the only ships they are really affected are the vaga and ishtar
|
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:39:00 -
[3837]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
/thread
the only ships they are really affected are the vaga and ishtar
|
R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:59:00 -
[3838]
Edited by: R3DSKULL on 05/08/2008 00:03:22
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
/thread
the only ships they are really affected are the vaga and ishtar
Are those stab wounds in yer head?? Because you seem to be clueless. lets not forgets hmm, rapiers/huginns, nano sacralige,nano zealot, nano curse, nano cerbs, basically any ship u can nano or mwd, Lets not forget u too can have a trackable cepter doing a whopping 5k fully nanoed.
And love yer blaster boats. For only 15bucks a month you too can web them... oh wait that doesnt work either. your TS web slows enemy for 30%,,, But you can web farther!!!! Stab wounds you silly noob get in a drake and show us yer uber leet pvp skills.
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R3DSKULL
Amarr CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 23:59:00 -
[3839]
Edited by: R3DSKULL on 05/08/2008 00:03:22
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
/thread
the only ships they are really affected are the vaga and ishtar
Are those stab wounds in yer head?? Because you seem to be clueless. lets not forgets hmm, rapiers/huginns, nano sacralige,nano zealot, nano curse, nano cerbs, basically any ship u can nano or mwd, Lets not forget u too can have a trackable cepter doing a whopping 5k fully nanoed.
And love yer blaster boats. For only 15bucks a month you too can web them... oh wait that doesnt work either. your TS web slows enemy for 30%,,, But you can web farther!!!! Stab wounds you silly noob get in a drake and show us yer uber leet pvp skills.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
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BetaRayBiff
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 02:23:00 -
[3840]
It's incredibly disappointing that the three ships I currently own, and enjoy, are a Vaga, a Huginn, and a Sabre. I'm all for improving the player experience, but in my particular case, the proposed changes sound like quite the opposite effect. |
|
BetaRayBiff
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 02:23:00 -
[3841]
It's incredibly disappointing that the three ships I currently own, and enjoy, are a Vaga, a Huginn, and a Sabre. I'm all for improving the player experience, but in my particular case, the proposed changes sound like quite the opposite effect. |
FatalDeception
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 03:53:00 -
[3842]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
YOU'RE WINNAR
|
FatalDeception
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 03:53:00 -
[3843]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
YOU'RE WINNAR
|
White Chasm
Caldari Blood In Blood Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 05:35:00 -
[3844]
ONOZ
EVE AM RUINED!
This is seriously the third time I've heard this reaction to proposed changes. All three times, I shrugged.
I'm sure it will be ok, maybe not right off the bat, but quit acting like this is the end of pvp in Eve, 'cuz I guarantee it isn't. _________________
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Although it's comforting to note that the majority of pirates will be remaining single for the foreseeable future.
|
White Chasm
Caldari Blood In Blood Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 05:35:00 -
[3845]
ONOZ
EVE AM RUINED!
This is seriously the third time I've heard this reaction to proposed changes. All three times, I shrugged.
I'm sure it will be ok, maybe not right off the bat, but quit acting like this is the end of pvp in Eve, 'cuz I guarantee it isn't. _________________
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Although it's comforting to note that the majority of pirates will be remaining single for the foreseeable future.
|
Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 06:21:00 -
[3846]
Originally by: Lee ChanKa
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
didnt wont 2 quote you because 2 many alredy did..but..I CANT REZIST AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH
YES CCP please nerf for player like this one he make NPC ISHTAR/DRAKE for caching npc on belt
wher is warp d wher is mwd(or ab after patch) wher is web WHER IS WHER IS WHERRRRR DONT POST ANYMORE PLEASEE GO PLAY WITH RAVEN ON BELT
NOW!!!
You sir, indirectly hit the nail on the head. CCP wants interceptors, interdictors, recons,heavy interdictors and smaller to have their roles as primary tacklers like cheap disposable frigates. I think in all honesty, they didn't expect everyone to be able to omni role their ship (able to web and disrupt, tank via nano, and deal damage like the ishtar.) And so they're going to shred things down to requiring armor/shield tanks again for most setups that either lack some tank or pack their own tackle, but can't be right on top of their target, thus meaning you need a mix of ships. not just nano-HASes, but interceptors, heavy assault ships, Battleships, etc.
And you'd better believe they're gonna nerf stuff to their vision every time, sadly.
Another one bites the dust. |
Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 06:21:00 -
[3847]
Originally by: Lee ChanKa
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
didnt wont 2 quote you because 2 many alredy did..but..I CANT REZIST AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH
YES CCP please nerf for player like this one he make NPC ISHTAR/DRAKE for caching npc on belt
wher is warp d wher is mwd(or ab after patch) wher is web WHER IS WHER IS WHERRRRR DONT POST ANYMORE PLEASEE GO PLAY WITH RAVEN ON BELT
NOW!!!
You sir, indirectly hit the nail on the head. CCP wants interceptors, interdictors, recons,heavy interdictors and smaller to have their roles as primary tacklers like cheap disposable frigates. I think in all honesty, they didn't expect everyone to be able to omni role their ship (able to web and disrupt, tank via nano, and deal damage like the ishtar.) And so they're going to shred things down to requiring armor/shield tanks again for most setups that either lack some tank or pack their own tackle, but can't be right on top of their target, thus meaning you need a mix of ships. not just nano-HASes, but interceptors, heavy assault ships, Battleships, etc.
And you'd better believe they're gonna nerf stuff to their vision every time, sadly.
Another one bites the dust. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 06:28:00 -
[3848]
Nano's needed the nerf, EVE will improve because of it!
--------End of Thread------- ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 06:28:00 -
[3849]
Nano's needed the nerf, EVE will improve because of it!
--------End of Thread------- ----------------- Friends Forever |
Xavieer Naidoo
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 07:07:00 -
[3850]
My 2 cents: - Overal speed change - win - Nerfing ludicrous speeds - win - MWD reactivation cycle - loose - MWD / web changes - loose
IMO the proposed changes are way too much and way too heavy. And dear CCP - nerfing 90% of Minmatar and Gallente ships is not a very good idea.
U want more blobs ? "Fix the lag first. Fix the lag first. Fix the lag first..." *the madman's scream slowly echoes away*
|
|
Xavieer Naidoo
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 07:07:00 -
[3851]
My 2 cents: - Overal speed change - win - Nerfing ludicrous speeds - win - MWD reactivation cycle - loose - MWD / web changes - loose
IMO the proposed changes are way too much and way too heavy. And dear CCP - nerfing 90% of Minmatar and Gallente ships is not a very good idea.
U want more blobs ? "Fix the lag first. Fix the lag first. Fix the lag first..." *the madman's scream slowly echoes away*
|
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 07:34:00 -
[3852]
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been removed, and hacs are no longer worth flying. Also the entire minmatar race sucks now. Enough reasons for ya?
pvp has been changed, not removed, and arent minmatar supposed to be better in gangs of smaller, faster ships??? they are a tribal, nomadic, by storyline, race who excel in small fast ship warfair with fast guns.....this should realy be seen as a boost to thier style of fighting...especially since thier best ships are frigs and thier 2 mean AFs
just my 2 isk..... Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 07:34:00 -
[3853]
Originally by: Red Thunder downside : 50% of eves pvp has now been removed, and hacs are no longer worth flying. Also the entire minmatar race sucks now. Enough reasons for ya?
pvp has been changed, not removed, and arent minmatar supposed to be better in gangs of smaller, faster ships??? they are a tribal, nomadic, by storyline, race who excel in small fast ship warfair with fast guns.....this should realy be seen as a boost to thier style of fighting...especially since thier best ships are frigs and thier 2 mean AFs
just my 2 isk..... Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 08:45:00 -
[3854]
IMHO, this whole thing has turned into an exercise in futility over the years. I mean, seriously, the CCP "balance" devs are fighting a loosing battle here.
The PvP min-maxers will ALWAYS find what the most effective setup type (under whatever the current rule-set deployed on TQ) is and exploit the living hell out of it. Since speed is being made far less effective of a setup, now there will be, let me see... hmmm... can you say back to the BLOB children?!?
I said the "Need for Speed Initiative" was a joke when they deployed it; and now the proof has finally come out in the devs' own actions. They are undoing most/all of the love that speed got in the game rules (with the speed initiative) and they NEVER did anything about the lag. So that whole initiative was fail and this one will be too.
Why? Because the "balance" devs NEVER consider positive changes, only negative nerf-bat nukes, like what is happening now. Bring in NEW modules to deal with massive speed, anyone??!? Hello??!?!? Nope. Not a single dev is listening to some of the WONDERFUL ideas offered by the creative PLAYERS of Eve in this thread to fix this "problem" in a positive manner.
One of the devs actually said about speed: "The devs give and the devs take away." What the quote SHOULD have been is: "The devs give and then the devs take away MORE."
Oh, and by the way, YES, I have been out to SiSi, MANY times. I also seem to be one of the ONLY ones that have tested these changes in situations that have implications BESIDES the ones that directly affect PvP. Guess what devs? These changes are going to have FAR more reaching consequences than you are even taking into consideration.
/rant off
Recommendations that not a single dev is going to read much less listen to: 1. Fix the SPECIFIC ships that are (capable of) breaking the physics engine. This is bad, mkay. 2. Nerf MWDs. Because they are the single greatest boost to speed in the game. Period. 3. Make MINOR adjustments to the other greatest speed boosters in the game. Namely: Snakes, and Polycarbs. 4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREAKY-FINGERS!! Meaning, everything you touch you break. Your track record proves it. 5. Consider putting in some of the wonderful ADDITIONS to the game that have been suggested by the creative players you have, rather than simply taking AWAY from the game. How about a module that is specifically designed to shut down MWDs and does nothing else; kinda like a warp scrambler, but with MUCH greater range and it only works on MWDs? This could also be done with scripts to existing modules. This would add a new form of tackler to the game and thereby diversity to PvP. Just ONE of the many great ideas that have been suggested by others that the devs will NEVER consider....
Meh. I am done talking about the speed issue. I have typed (overall) pages and pages on this subject, and now the devs are going to do whatever they please, as always.
/me waits for judgment of breaky-doom to be handed down.
*
* |
Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 08:45:00 -
[3855]
Edited by: Sylthi on 05/08/2008 09:23:51 IMHO, this whole thing has turned into an exercise in futility over the years. I mean, seriously, the CCP "balance" devs are fighting a loosing battle here.
The PvP min-maxers will ALWAYS find what the most effective setup type (under whatever the current rule-set deployed on TQ) is and exploit the living hell out of it. Since speed is being made far less effective of a setup, now there will be, let me see... hmmm... can you say back to the BLOB children?!?
I said the "Need for Speed Initiative" was a joke when they deployed it; and now the proof has finally come out in the devs' own actions. They are undoing most/all of the love that speed got in the game rules (with the speed initiative) and they NEVER did anything about the lag. So that whole initiative was fail and this one will be too.
Why? Because the "balance" devs NEVER consider positive changes, only negative nerf-bat nukes, like what is happening now. Bring in NEW modules to deal with massive speed, anyone??!? Hello??!?!? Nope. Not a single dev is listening to some of the WONDERFUL ideas offered by the creative PLAYERS of Eve in this thread to fix this "problem" in a positive manner.
One of the devs actually said about speed: "The devs give and the devs take away." What the quote SHOULD have been is: "The devs give and then the devs take away MORE."
Oh, and by the way, YES, I have been out to SiSi, MANY times. I also seem to be one of the ONLY ones that have tested these changes in situations that have implications BESIDES the ones that directly affect PvP. Guess what devs? These changes are going to have FAR more reaching consequences than you are even taking into consideration.
/rant off
Recommendations that not a single dev is going to read much less listen to: 1. Fix the SPECIFIC ships that are (capable of) breaking the physics engine. This is bad, mkay. 2. Nerf MWDs (if you feel you MUST). Because they are the single greatest boost to speed in the game. Period. 3. Make MINOR adjustments to the other greatest speed boosters in the game. Namely: Snakes, and Polycarbs. 4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREAKY-FINGERS!! Meaning, everything you touch you break. Your track record proves it. 5. For all that is holy, LEAVE SKILLS ALONE!! You don't think ruining months of paid game time for people isn't going to pis_s them off and/or make them leave the game?? 6. Consider putting in some of the wonderful ADDITIONS to the game that have been suggested by the creative players you have, rather than simply taking AWAY from the game. How about a module that is specifically designed to shut down MWDs and does nothing else; kinda like a warp scrambler, but with MUCH greater range and it only works on MWDs? This could also be done with scripts to existing modules. This would add a new form of tackler to the game and thereby diversity to PvP. Just ONE of the many great ideas that have been suggested by others that the devs will NEVER consider....
Meh. I am done talking about the speed issue. I have typed (overall) pages and pages on this subject, and now the devs are going to do whatever they please, as always.
/me waits for judgment of breaky-doom to be handed down.
*
* |
Miss Rumpelstilzchen
Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 09:23:00 -
[3856]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Typing this in English so we can maybe get a response:
Alright, its been more than a week since the dev blog was released, can we get a statement from CCP?
What do you plan to do now? We have posted quite a few very good ideas, and some terrible, terrible ship fittings.
I want a statement, please.
Thanks.
thanks Synapse for the rework :)
|
Miss Rumpelstilzchen
Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 09:23:00 -
[3857]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Typing this in English so we can maybe get a response:
Alright, its been more than a week since the dev blog was released, can we get a statement from CCP?
What do you plan to do now? We have posted quite a few very good ideas, and some terrible, terrible ship fittings.
I want a statement, please.
Thanks.
thanks Synapse for the rework :)
|
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 10:08:00 -
[3858]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Please may this guy DEV This guy actually plays the game and is not just an EFT warrior like Nozh. What he proposes are well thought out ideas not a knee jerk reaction to whines by non pvpers.
|
L Cross
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 10:08:00 -
[3859]
Originally by: Areo Hotah Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08 I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily. I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.
Observations from me fighting nano gangs: -nobody takes booster pills -Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot. -Hardly anyone uses snakes -There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors -I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.
I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.
I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.
I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.
There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.
I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.
Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?). Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.
Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).
Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.
Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement": Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.
Cause: Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships. Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.
Areo
Please may this guy DEV This guy actually plays the game and is not just an EFT warrior like Nozh. What he proposes are well thought out ideas not a knee jerk reaction to whines by non pvpers.
|
Sky Marshal
Aeden
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:27:00 -
[3860]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 11:28:50
I guess I am the only one to consider this changes as a boost and not a nerf.
Without a good webifier, kill a nanoship will require to be in a nanoship yourself to keep the target at range and avoid him to go away, or a good blob.
Nanoships will be more than today, the only way of playing, with just a reduction of the maximum speed.
____
Removing/Replacing Local is the stupidest idea who can be asked, ever. |
|
Sky Marshal
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:27:00 -
[3861]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 11:28:50
I guess I am the only one to consider this changes as a boost and not a nerf.
Without a good webifier, kill a nanoship will require to be in a nanoship yourself to keep the target at range and avoid him to go away, or a good blob.
Nanoships will be more than today, the only way of playing, with just a reduction of the maximum speed.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:34:00 -
[3862]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 05/08/2008 11:34:48 check this out - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894&page=1
this would be a far better change to nanos, as it doesnt kill off the entire concept
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:34:00 -
[3863]
Edited by: Red Thunder on 05/08/2008 11:34:48 check this out - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894&page=1
this would be a far better change to nanos, as it doesnt kill off the entire concept
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 14:02:00 -
[3864]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 11:28:50
I guess I am the only one to consider this changes as a boost and not a nerf.
Without a good webifier, kill a nanoship will require to be in a nanoship yourself to keep the target at range and avoid him to go away, or a good blob.
Nanoships will be more than today, the only way of playing, with just a reduction of the maximum speed.
if you fail at PVP, nano seems like impossible. so my suggestion would be to stop whining and stop engaging T2 when you are in a caracal
|
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 14:02:00 -
[3865]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 11:28:50
I guess I am the only one to consider this changes as a boost and not a nerf.
Without a good webifier, kill a nanoship will require to be in a nanoship yourself to keep the target at range and avoid him to go away, or a good blob.
Nanoships will be more than today, the only way of playing, with just a reduction of the maximum speed.
if you fail at PVP, nano seems like impossible. so my suggestion would be to stop whining and stop engaging T2 when you are in a caracal
|
Sky Marshal
Aeden
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 14:27:00 -
[3866]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 14:29:03
Well, I will not waste my time to counter that, I have better things to do ____
Removing/Replacing Local is the stupidest idea who can be asked, ever. |
Sky Marshal
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 14:27:00 -
[3867]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/08/2008 14:29:03
Well, I will not waste my time to counter that, I have better things to do
|
Popsikle
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 15:15:00 -
[3868]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime. |
Popsikle
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 15:15:00 -
[3869]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button. ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime. |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 16:32:00 -
[3870]
Originally by: Popsikle
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button.
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
|
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 16:32:00 -
[3871]
Originally by: Popsikle
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button.
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
|
White Chasm
Caldari Blood In Blood Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 18:37:00 -
[3872]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
Not everyone posts their kills.
Now back under the bridge, troll. You didn't even ask 3 questions. _________________
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Although it's comforting to note that the majority of pirates will be remaining single for the foreseeable future.
|
White Chasm
Caldari Blood In Blood Out
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 18:37:00 -
[3873]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
Not everyone posts their kills.
Now back under the bridge, troll. You didn't even ask 3 questions. _________________
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Although it's comforting to note that the majority of pirates will be remaining single for the foreseeable future.
|
PhalHell
Minmatar Pastry Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 19:00:00 -
[3874]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Signed
The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my corps, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.
|
PhalHell
Minmatar Pastry Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 19:00:00 -
[3875]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Signed
The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my corps, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 19:32:00 -
[3876]
Originally by: White Chasm
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
Not everyone posts their kills.
So your saying that this person has only ever killed ppl who never post there losses and the ppl she/he flew with never posted any mails either ever???.
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
White Chasm
16 kills 6 losses
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 19:32:00 -
[3877]
Originally by: White Chasm
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
Not everyone posts their kills.
So your saying that this person has only ever killed ppl who never post there losses and the ppl she/he flew with never posted any mails either ever???.
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
White Chasm
16 kills 6 losses
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
|
Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 21:39:00 -
[3878]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
Nothing looks better than a 400mil HAC that can't move into range, can't point, can't web, can't maintain cap, and most importantly, can't die without becoming the laughing stock of the entire cluster.
Fight on, EFT warrior.
|
Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 21:39:00 -
[3879]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
Nothing looks better than a 400mil HAC that can't move into range, can't point, can't web, can't maintain cap, and most importantly, can't die without becoming the laughing stock of the entire cluster.
Fight on, EFT warrior.
|
Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught
Placidity Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 22:45:00 -
[3880]
Edited by: Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught on 05/08/2008 22:54:19 Edited by: Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught on 05/08/2008 22:51:41
Originally by: Sylthi Edited by: Sylthi on 05/08/2008 09:23:51
Recommendations that not a single dev is going to read much less listen to: 1. Fix the SPECIFIC ships that are (capable of) breaking the physics engine. This is bad, mkay. 2. Nerf MWDs (if you feel you MUST). Because they are the single greatest boost to speed in the game. Period. 3. Make MINOR adjustments to the other greatest speed boosters in the game. Namely: Snakes, and Polycarbs. 4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREAKY-FINGERS!! Meaning, everything you touch you break. Your track record proves it. 5. For all that is holy, LEAVE SKILLS ALONE!! You don't think ruining months of paid game time for people isn't going to pis_s them off and/or make them leave the game?? 6. Consider putting in some of the wonderful ADDITIONS to the game that have been suggested by the creative players you have, rather than simply taking AWAY from the game. How about a module that is specifically designed to shut down MWDs and does nothing else; kinda like a warp scrambler, but with MUCH greater range and it only works on MWDs? This could also be done with scripts to existing modules. This would add a new form of tackler to the game and thereby diversity to PvP. Just ONE of the many great ideas that have been suggested by others that the devs will NEVER consider....
Meh. I am done talking about the speed issue. I have typed (overall) pages and pages on this subject, and now the devs are going to do whatever they please, as always.
/me waits for judgment of breaky-doom to be handed down.
I really like your ideas, but number six is a little bothersome as your suggested module would make any blaster fitted ship setup considerably broken.
I was thinking that MWDs and Microwarp Scramblers as I like to now call them, work on a points system like Core Stabs and Warp Disruptors -- where T1/T2 MWDS having 1/2 points respectively and Microwarp Scramblers having 1/2 points as well. Then, much like how a couple ships have a Warp Core Rating set above 1, CCP could give certain ships a Microwarp Rating.
Therefore a blasterboat could have a native Microwarp Rating of 1 or 2 points making it more difficult for a solo opponent to negate its MWD as well as making the fitting of a T1 MWD more valid in some setups to help free up fitting points since good blasterboat kits can be extremely difficult to fit.
|
|
Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught
Placidity Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 22:45:00 -
[3881]
Edited by: Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught on 05/08/2008 22:54:19 Edited by: Keiko Auhnhurbaccalaught on 05/08/2008 22:51:41
Originally by: Sylthi Edited by: Sylthi on 05/08/2008 09:23:51
Recommendations that not a single dev is going to read much less listen to: 1. Fix the SPECIFIC ships that are (capable of) breaking the physics engine. This is bad, mkay. 2. Nerf MWDs (if you feel you MUST). Because they are the single greatest boost to speed in the game. Period. 3. Make MINOR adjustments to the other greatest speed boosters in the game. Namely: Snakes, and Polycarbs. 4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREAKY-FINGERS!! Meaning, everything you touch you break. Your track record proves it. 5. For all that is holy, LEAVE SKILLS ALONE!! You don't think ruining months of paid game time for people isn't going to pis_s them off and/or make them leave the game?? 6. Consider putting in some of the wonderful ADDITIONS to the game that have been suggested by the creative players you have, rather than simply taking AWAY from the game. How about a module that is specifically designed to shut down MWDs and does nothing else; kinda like a warp scrambler, but with MUCH greater range and it only works on MWDs? This could also be done with scripts to existing modules. This would add a new form of tackler to the game and thereby diversity to PvP. Just ONE of the many great ideas that have been suggested by others that the devs will NEVER consider....
Meh. I am done talking about the speed issue. I have typed (overall) pages and pages on this subject, and now the devs are going to do whatever they please, as always.
/me waits for judgment of breaky-doom to be handed down.
I really like your ideas, but number six is a little bothersome as your suggested module would make any blaster fitted ship setup considerably broken.
I was thinking that MWDs and Microwarp Scramblers as I like to now call them, work on a points system like Core Stabs and Warp Disruptors -- where T1/T2 MWDS having 1/2 points respectively and Microwarp Scramblers having 1/2 points as well. Then, much like how a couple ships have a Warp Core Rating set above 1, CCP could give certain ships a Microwarp Rating.
Therefore a blasterboat could have a native Microwarp Rating of 1 or 2 points making it more difficult for a solo opponent to negate its MWD as well as making the fitting of a T1 MWD more valid in some setups to help free up fitting points since good blasterboat kits can be extremely difficult to fit.
|
Commander Shag
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 23:26:00 -
[3882]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
|
Commander Shag
Free Collective Sons of Tangra
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 23:26:00 -
[3883]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 23:59:00 -
[3884]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 23:59:00 -
[3885]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
|
Yahrr
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 00:30:00 -
[3886]
Introducing a weakened 24 km web just like the weaker 24km scram would do the trick too! AND would give us another item to play with.
You know, in RL we nerf a lot too: Russia is removing warheads from their nukes because with only one warhead per nuke it can still do the same damage as an US six pack. Having a more powerful missile would be unfair. ORLY!
**** happens if you make a mistake somewhere in designing the assets for a computer game. Just don't try to fix it by tweaking it. Come up with a new item to counter the mistake. The mistake is already part of the game.
Don't, just don't let this game evolve like Battlefield2 did. I bought BF2 and after a zillion patches it has become a total different game. Oh wow isn't that fun?!
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Yahrr
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 00:30:00 -
[3887]
Introducing a weakened 24 km web just like the weaker 24km scram would do the trick too! AND would give us another item to play with.
You know, in RL we nerf a lot too: Russia is removing warheads from their nukes because with only one warhead per nuke it can still do the same damage as an US six pack. Having a more powerful missile would be unfair. ORLY!
**** happens if you make a mistake somewhere in designing the assets for a computer game. Just don't try to fix it by tweaking it. Come up with a new item to counter the mistake. The mistake is already part of the game.
Don't, just don't let this game evolve like Battlefield2 did. I bought BF2 and after a zillion patches it has become a total different game. Oh wow isn't that fun?!
|
Jakzin
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 04:42:00 -
[3888]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
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Jakzin
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:42:00 -
[3889]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.06 09:01:00 -
[3890]
Well they did a good job burying this post and a Dev hasnt commented since page 30 i think so...... can we get an answer here or at least a comment i dont even think the carrier nerf has this many pages
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.06 09:01:00 -
[3891]
Well they did a good job burying this post and a Dev hasnt commented since page 30 i think so...... can we get an answer here or at least a comment i dont even think the carrier nerf has this many pages
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Pesadel0
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.06 10:47:00 -
[3892]
Originally by: Abrynn Well they did a good job burying this post and a Dev hasnt commented since page 30 i think so...... can we get an answer here or at least a comment i dont even think the carrier nerf has this many pages
I would like to see a actually intelligent post by Noz explaining why they decided to nerf speed ,not a 10 year old graf and statistic not accounting for allot of variables that exist in game.Or does he think that everyone is flying snake poly t2 ships :? ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2008.08.06 10:47:00 -
[3893]
Originally by: Abrynn Well they did a good job burying this post and a Dev hasnt commented since page 30 i think so...... can we get an answer here or at least a comment i dont even think the carrier nerf has this many pages
I would like to see a actually intelligent post by Noz explaining why they decided to nerf speed ,not a 10 year old graf and statistic not accounting for allot of variables that exist in game.Or does he think that everyone is flying snake poly t2 ships :?
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Crellion
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.08.06 10:48:00 -
[3894]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button.
Sorry but using 15-20 people to do the job of a 3-4 man gang (or something a solo Ishtar can do) is an even lamer I WIN button... All you do with this post is confirming that the end of nano will mean more blobing for those who cant use rr or some other fotm effectiverly.
Anyway if you want to gang stuff with 15 people I recommend insta damage BCs for lolz or velators for Megalolz. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 10:48:00 -
[3895]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Uh... We used to go out with 15-20 inties/dictors and do hit and run. None of them were nano'd and we were able to take down everything from solo ratters to a carrier at one point.
You might have to try harder then hitting your I WIN button.
Sorry but using 15-20 people to do the job of a 3-4 man gang (or something a solo Ishtar can do) is an even lamer I WIN button... All you do with this post is confirming that the end of nano will mean more blobing for those who cant use rr or some other fotm effectiverly.
Anyway if you want to gang stuff with 15 people I recommend insta damage BCs for lolz or velators for Megalolz. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2008.08.06 11:08:00 -
[3896]
CCP, say something Have you been testing on SiSi ? Anything you want to share with us ?
- no signature
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.06 11:08:00 -
[3897]
CCP, say something Have you been testing on SiSi ? Anything you want to share with us ?
- no signature
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Eurzadahn
Gallente Tenichigo Kaigun Spectrum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.06 13:43:00 -
[3898]
Originally by: Benedic Killing eve one nerf at at time.
Enjoy your blobs.
I agree. The more you mess with something, the more over time it can go dreadfully wrong. CCP keeps trying to prevent the evolution it starts. I like the idea of fleet engagements, but by forcing it to happen is not why all these members sign on to play religiously.
I propose we meet in the middle between the proposed changes and the current attributes. Let's try see how that may work.
Not being a pirate myself, but knowing the value of speed as I move around the game, I have enjoyed certain aspects of high velocity, sometimes it is your only escape. Plus, killing of the blaster boat . . . You are making one series of weapons, which were already relatively weak to begin with, obselete. Don't screw the pooch here guys, let's give the blaster boats something to keep them fighting. Also, consider, perhaps larger ships, which already have a hard time hitting fast targets, could maybe get a slight increase in web advantage, because with ther proposed web and MWD changes, in a variety of scenarios you are essentially screwing anything battlecruiser or above. I would need to run a lot more numbers before I am comfortable for changes like this to a service I am paying for. ---------------------------------------------
Eurzadahn
Sovereign & Founder, Tenichigo Kaigun Executor, Spectrum Alliance |
Eurzadahn
Gallente Tenichigo Kaigun Spectrum Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:43:00 -
[3899]
Originally by: Benedic Killing eve one nerf at at time.
Enjoy your blobs.
I agree. The more you mess with something, the more over time it can go dreadfully wrong. CCP keeps trying to prevent the evolution it starts. I like the idea of fleet engagements, but by forcing it to happen is not why all these members sign on to play religiously.
I propose we meet in the middle between the proposed changes and the current attributes. Let's try see how that may work.
Not being a pirate myself, but knowing the value of speed as I move around the game, I have enjoyed certain aspects of high velocity, sometimes it is your only escape. Plus, killing of the blaster boat . . . You are making one series of weapons, which were already relatively weak to begin with, obselete. Don't screw the pooch here guys, let's give the blaster boats something to keep them fighting. Also, consider, perhaps larger ships, which already have a hard time hitting fast targets, could maybe get a slight increase in web advantage, because with ther proposed web and MWD changes, in a variety of scenarios you are essentially screwing anything battlecruiser or above. I would need to run a lot more numbers before I am comfortable for changes like this to a service I am paying for. ---------------------------------------------
Eurzadahn
Sovereign & Founder, Tenichigo Kaigun Executor, Spectrum Alliance |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 14:29:00 -
[3900]
I am relatively certain that CCP hasn't responded in this thread because:
1) The are still testing and getting feedback on the changes made on SISI. It's only been in testing for a week people. (Psst, which is exactly what they should be doing).
2) As a general rule, CCP does not feel the need to make official posts in threads like this. In fact, considering what a cesspool this thread is, I really don't blame them a bit. I mean really, Noaz made a post throwing out numbers for a speed fit... obviously only looking at the parts of that fit that contributed to speed and only as a general example. Instantly every idiot in EVE cleverly portrayed that partial fit as Noaz's idea of a PVP fit!!111! Please people, thats pathetic even for the trolls in here. At least TRY to be inventive.
In case you don't realize it, with the possible exception of this thread... and that joke of a vote over in the hall... people posting rabid/panic stricken posts against the very idea of a nano nerf are pretty much laughing stocks. Now people that are constructively discussing the details of said patch do not fall into that category, I'm talking about the ones hyper-ventilate and claim small gang PVP will die and EVE will be ruined.
Yep, thats right, laughing stocks. So get over yourselves just a bit eh? Realize changes need to happen, are GOING to happen, and perhaps you can get your thoughts organized enough to have some positive effect on this patches final form.
It wouldn't break my heart a bit if some things currently in testing are eased up a bit. But coming in here and showing your ass in this thread are not going to help change anything (except reduce your credibility perhaps).
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:29:00 -
[3901]
I am relatively certain that CCP hasn't responded in this thread because:
1) The are still testing and getting feedback on the changes made on SISI. It's only been in testing for a week people. (Psst, which is exactly what they should be doing).
2) As a general rule, CCP does not feel the need to make official posts in threads like this. In fact, considering what a cesspool this thread is, I really don't blame them a bit. I mean really, Noaz made a post throwing out numbers for a speed fit... obviously only looking at the parts of that fit that contributed to speed and only as a general example. Instantly every idiot in EVE cleverly portrayed that partial fit as Noaz's idea of a PVP fit!!111! Please people, thats pathetic even for the trolls in here. At least TRY to be inventive.
In case you don't realize it, with the possible exception of this thread... and that joke of a vote over in the hall... people posting rabid/panic stricken posts against the very idea of a nano nerf are pretty much laughing stocks. Now people that are constructively discussing the details of said patch do not fall into that category, I'm talking about the ones hyper-ventilate and claim small gang PVP will die and EVE will be ruined.
Yep, thats right, laughing stocks. So get over yourselves just a bit eh? Realize changes need to happen, are GOING to happen, and perhaps you can get your thoughts organized enough to have some positive effect on this patches final form.
It wouldn't break my heart a bit if some things currently in testing are eased up a bit. But coming in here and showing your ass in this thread are not going to help change anything (except reduce your credibility perhaps).
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SlothLoveChunk
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:43:00 -
[3902]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
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SlothLoveChunk
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:43:00 -
[3903]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:22:00 -
[3904]
Originally by: SlothLoveChunk
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
Actually ive never used it either but that does not mean that it dosnt update from a lot of the various killboards in eve and in most cases is very accurate. This is a first that ive seen such a discrepancy in kills on anybodys stats.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:22:00 -
[3905]
Originally by: SlothLoveChunk
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
Actually ive never used it either but that does not mean that it dosnt update from a lot of the various killboards in eve and in most cases is very accurate. This is a first that ive seen such a discrepancy in kills on anybodys stats.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:44:00 -
[3906]
Originally by: SlothLoveChunk
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
Another little secret: Battleclinic gets killmails from a lot of other killboards. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:44:00 -
[3907]
Originally by: SlothLoveChunk
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 06/08/2008 00:14:50
Originally by: Commander Shag
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Battleclinic is not even close.
Don't care about your convo, just saying.
30% of your kills at least shows you have killed stuff and while its not totally accurate or impressive figures on either, as i already mentioned its a good guide to see if ppl actually pvp or not as less than 40 kills in 4 years is a good indication that somebody does not tbh.
Although i do agree that your figures are the most extreme ive ever seen as far as discrepancies on battle clinic is concerned, maybe its cos most of your kills were this year or summat else as some are posted but others are not.
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Nobody uses battleclinic.
Corps use their own killboards most of the time.
Another little secret: Battleclinic gets killmails from a lot of other killboards. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:05:00 -
[3908]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
QFT
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
You sir, indirectly hit the nail on the head. CCP wants interceptors, interdictors, recons,heavy interdictors and smaller to have their roles as primary tacklers like cheap disposable frigates. I think in all honesty, they didn't expect everyone to be able to omni role their ship (able to web and disrupt, tank via nano, and deal damage like the ishtar.) And so they're going to shred things down to requiring armor/shield tanks again for most setups that either lack some tank or pack their own tackle, but can't be right on top of their target, thus meaning you need a mix of ships. not just nano-HASes, but interceptors, heavy assault ships, Battleships, etc.
And you'd better believe they're gonna nerf stuff to their vision every time, sadly.
QFT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you speak to them |
Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:05:00 -
[3909]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Hmm, lets see...
Gallente recons - no longer useless Assault frigates now have a role Short range, small ship tactics now viable Missile ships now have a greater pvp role Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web
All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.
Downside?
Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently
All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?
QFT
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
You sir, indirectly hit the nail on the head. CCP wants interceptors, interdictors, recons,heavy interdictors and smaller to have their roles as primary tacklers like cheap disposable frigates. I think in all honesty, they didn't expect everyone to be able to omni role their ship (able to web and disrupt, tank via nano, and deal damage like the ishtar.) And so they're going to shred things down to requiring armor/shield tanks again for most setups that either lack some tank or pack their own tackle, but can't be right on top of their target, thus meaning you need a mix of ships. not just nano-HASes, but interceptors, heavy assault ships, Battleships, etc.
And you'd better believe they're gonna nerf stuff to their vision every time, sadly.
QFT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you speak to them |
Trader Jjoe
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 16:26:00 -
[3910]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: White Chasm
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Popsikle
Born in eve 2004.09.21
36 kills 12 losses in 4 years?????.
LOL were those kills in your dreams.
Not everyone posts their kills.
So your saying that this person has only ever killed ppl who never post there losses and the ppl she/he flew with never posted any mails either ever???.
Battle clinic is about as accurate as it gets bud not 100% but close enough to get a very good idea.
White Chasm
16 kills 6 losses
How close is that?...by all means post the hundreds that are missing and prove me wrong.
Is it not interesting that the majority of the pro-nerf crowd are mission runners and have little to no stake in PvP anwyay? What the hell is their problem? Maybe us PvP people should start suggesting that missions are wayyy to easy and LP's should be 10 times harder to get.
Go play your carebear game and let us play our PvP.
Clearly the biggest issue that the speed nerf poses is that Blob warfare wins out. The game cannot support large fleets well as it is. I was in a battle with Hyrdra and it was like playing a turn based game with no graphics.
Ships would not load on the overview, and when they did, they would soon dissapear off grid - because the frid was like 200km.
You just locked and targeted ships hit f1-fwhatever and hoped you got a kill. A couple hours later you checked the Kill board to see what if any kills you got.
This is the future of Eve? If so, CCP - say good bye to my 4 accounts. I love this game , but if you plan to ruin it as bad as Lucas ruined SWG (or worse) or screw it up Like Mythic did DAOC, then do not be surprised if the results are similar.
You want to reduce speed a little fine - but if you take it out as a vialbe play style you lose heavy.
You will keep all your carebears but us People who actually want to play versus People will leave slowly but surely.
And in case you want to look up my main - Sean Arek (I logged in with my isker account).
I Play Verus People.
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Amarr Holymight
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:30:00 -
[3911]
Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
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Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:30:00 -
[3912]
Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
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Trader Jjoe
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:35:00 -
[3913]
Originally by: Amarr Holymight Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
He makes an excellent point. HAC's offer little to no value over Battle Cruisers with this proposed nerf. Including insurance differances about 75mil more for . . . . what exactly?
|
Trader Jjoe
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 16:35:00 -
[3914]
Originally by: Amarr Holymight Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
He makes an excellent point. HAC's offer little to no value over Battle Cruisers with this proposed nerf. Including insurance differances about 75mil more for . . . . what exactly?
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 03:44:00 -
[3915]
well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also haced have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
Hoshino Rika
Caldari GBTeam
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 03:44:00 -
[3916]
well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also haced have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
"Wellcome to Rivendell... Mr Anderson"
|
somanco
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 06:47:00 -
[3917]
THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THIS THINGS IS GOING TO ANOTHER GAME ...
IF CCP GOT COMPETITION MAYBE AND THEN MAYBE CCP HEAR US THE CLIENTS ... TILL THEN CCP DO WATHEVER THEY WANT BUT REMEMBER BEFORE TRINITI PATCH WE USE TO BE 20 K OF PPL NOW WE ARE 30.. WEN THE PATCH COME CLEAR.. DUN NO... MAYBE 40 MAYBE 20 AGAIN BUT CCP COMPETITION IS NEAR.. MAKE SOME REAL CHANGES TO THE GAME NOT THIS CRAPY ONES CCP PPL CAN CHANGE GAMES YOU NOW AND GET BORED OF THINGS LIKE THIS THIS IS NOT WOW HERE YOU ONLI TAKE ONE YEAR OF PAYD GAME ONLY IF YOU SCREW THIS UP AND SOME GOOD PLAYERS GONA LEAVE THE GAME I HOPE YOU NOW WATH YOU ARE DOING XD.
|
somanco
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 06:47:00 -
[3918]
THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THIS THINGS IS GOING TO ANOTHER GAME ...
IF CCP GOT COMPETITION MAYBE AND THEN MAYBE CCP HEAR US THE CLIENTS ... TILL THEN CCP DO WATHEVER THEY WANT BUT REMEMBER BEFORE TRINITI PATCH WE USE TO BE 20 K OF PPL NOW WE ARE 30.. WEN THE PATCH COME CLEAR.. DUN NO... MAYBE 40 MAYBE 20 AGAIN BUT CCP COMPETITION IS NEAR.. MAKE SOME REAL CHANGES TO THE GAME NOT THIS CRAPY ONES CCP PPL CAN CHANGE GAMES YOU NOW AND GET BORED OF THINGS LIKE THIS THIS IS NOT WOW HERE YOU ONLI TAKE ONE YEAR OF PAYD GAME ONLY IF YOU SCREW THIS UP AND SOME GOOD PLAYERS GONA LEAVE THE GAME I HOPE YOU NOW WATH YOU ARE DOING XD.
|
Sophia Esperanza
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 07:10:00 -
[3919]
CCP could care less, they still own everyone who plays EVE lol.
|
Sophia Esperanza
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 07:10:00 -
[3920]
CCP could care less, they still own everyone who plays EVE lol.
|
|
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 08:54:00 -
[3921]
page 137.... this thread is too fast and needs serious rebalance
Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
|
Ethidium Bromide
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 08:54:00 -
[3922]
page 137.... this thread is too fast and needs serious rebalance
Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
|
Pesadel0
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 11:46:00 -
[3923]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also haced have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
LOl, you can bring your sisi vaga against my sisi drake and we will see how fast or how my BS t1 will kill your t2 vaga. ------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 11:46:00 -
[3924]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also haced have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
LOl, you can bring your sisi vaga against my sisi drake and we will see how fast or how my BS t1 will kill your t2 vaga.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 14:55:00 -
[3925]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also hac's have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
Your kinda living in your own little world there aint ya buddy?.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 14:55:00 -
[3926]
Originally by: Hoshino Rika well even tanked HAC is faster and more agile than a BC, which can m,ake a difference also hac's have better bonuses and resistances which in fact makes them superior to BCs
Your kinda living in your own little world there aint ya buddy?.
|
Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 18:38:00 -
[3927]
LOL CCP decided to unsticky the topic, I think too much whinage has occurred...
|
Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 18:38:00 -
[3928]
LOL CCP decided to unsticky the topic, I think too much whinage has occurred...
|
Amarr Citizen 15948891
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:15:00 -
[3929]
instead of worring about current ships and forcing more blob warfare junk. FIX THE SERVER SO YOU CAN FIGHT IN A BLOB. appears once again you have decided to ruin eve and force more boring gameplay. are you actually trying to lose subscribers? another sad day for wrongly placed efforts in the r and d department.
|
Amarr Citizen 15948891
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:15:00 -
[3930]
instead of worring about current ships and forcing more blob warfare junk. FIX THE SERVER SO YOU CAN FIGHT IN A BLOB. appears once again you have decided to ruin eve and force more boring gameplay. are you actually trying to lose subscribers? another sad day for wrongly placed efforts in the r and d department.
|
|
Cobra Raider
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:46:00 -
[3931]
Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. so tell me the point of this ship now i for one only like small gangs that move fast hit hard and can have ***** drive active we needed but now no point in play this game or maybe you should give my time and money i spent training for another useless ship
|
Cobra Raider
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:46:00 -
[3932]
Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. so tell me the point of this ship now i for one only like small gangs that move fast hit hard and can have ***** drive active we needed but now no point in play this game or maybe you should give my time and money i spent training for another useless ship
|
Develon Hitaki
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 02:02:00 -
[3933]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 08/08/2008 02:04:04 Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 08/08/2008 02:02:34 all I can say is this proposed change is ridiculous in so many ways.
first of all instead of changing one or two things that affect speed your solution takes 12 to many approaches that are completely un-nessesary.
secondly, By doing this your going to make people bring larger fleets in thus causing the small gang warfare to be non existant.
third, Instead of just changing the bonus poly carbs, and aux thurster rig's to a lower percanetage.
fourth, I can over heat a warp scram thus giving me the ability to disable a astarte or a mega from getting within opt range while i happily melt his armour down from my range. while he cant get any good hits on me.
fifth, the role of the huggin is now null and void.
sixth, gives unfair advantage to ships that can dictate range based on effective op ranges. (amarr, arty's, missles, rails).
rethink this plan it has more changes then neccesary.
I would put more emphisis on stacking penelties on all things that dictate speed as opposed to changing the base items properties. ie polycarb's actually get stack nerfed tied with nano's and aux thrusters get stack nerfed with overdrivers yadda yadda yadda.
I will say this again, by doing this you are going to boost caladri, rail boats, and amarr.
|
Develon Hitaki
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 02:02:00 -
[3934]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 08/08/2008 02:04:04 Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 08/08/2008 02:02:34 all I can say is this proposed change is ridiculous in so many ways.
first of all instead of changing one or two things that affect speed your solution takes 12 to many approaches that are completely un-nessesary.
secondly, By doing this your going to make people bring larger fleets in thus causing the small gang warfare to be non existant.
third, Instead of just changing the bonus poly carbs, and aux thurster rig's to a lower percanetage.
fourth, I can over heat a warp scram thus giving me the ability to disable a astarte or a mega from getting within opt range while i happily melt his armour down from my range. while he cant get any good hits on me.
fifth, the role of the huggin is now null and void.
sixth, gives unfair advantage to ships that can dictate range based on effective op ranges. (amarr, arty's, missles, rails).
rethink this plan it has more changes then neccesary.
I would put more emphisis on stacking penelties on all things that dictate speed as opposed to changing the base items properties. ie polycarb's actually get stack nerfed tied with nano's and aux thrusters get stack nerfed with overdrivers yadda yadda yadda.
I will say this again, by doing this you are going to boost caladri, rail boats, and amarr.
|
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 02:32:00 -
[3935]
moronic changes that make it clear that CCP does not understand or care about small gangs or any sort of 'balance' outside of their bank account numbers. I would appreciate it if there was some sort of dev blog about how if 'non-pvpers' generally don't like game mechanic X it will be changed within a few months, that way I could save some subscription money. Let me know when you go back to being the company that cares about providing your customers with a fun and unique game rather than pandering to the masses like all the other MMO creators. -----
|
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 02:32:00 -
[3936]
moronic changes that make it clear that CCP does not understand or care about small gangs or any sort of 'balance' outside of their bank account numbers. I would appreciate it if there was some sort of dev blog about how if 'non-pvpers' generally don't like game mechanic X it will be changed within a few months, that way I could save some subscription money. Let me know when you go back to being the company that cares about providing your customers with a fun and unique game rather than pandering to the masses like all the other MMO creators. -----
|
Haptic Roach
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 07:50:00 -
[3937]
These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players. |
Haptic Roach
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 07:50:00 -
[3938]
These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players. |
iloni atoriandra
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 11:39:00 -
[3939]
There is more money in catering to new players and CCP is a business.
Theres been 2 patches on Sisi but no patch notes saying whats been changed.
At least Jumpgate Evolution and Black Prophecy should be out soon so that should give CCP some competition in the spaceship MMO market.
|
iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 11:39:00 -
[3940]
There is more money in catering to new players and CCP is a business.
Theres been 2 patches on Sisi but no patch notes saying whats been changed.
At least Jumpgate Evolution and Black Prophecy should be out soon so that should give CCP some competition in the spaceship MMO market.
|
|
Darklin Eldaris
The Illuminati.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 20:05:00 -
[3941]
So, basically what you're saying is:
F*ck minmatar.
Seriously, without "ludicrous" speed what are minmatar ships. The vagabond, anyone?
The tanks, and damage output of minmatar need to be SERIOUSLY reconsidered if this nerf is going to be patched in. It is simply unfair to nerf an entire race, if this nerf goes in unchanged it is likely that I will play my caldari account, and you can take the $15 a month you used to get for this one and shove it up your entire ^&*. It is similarly as likely that I will just get fed up and quit the game entirely.
Simply because people found away around the norm in your game does not mean that you need to completely change it. This is not a "balance," it is a RADICAL change in the way your game will be played.
Tread lightly ccp, you've made enough mistakes as it is.
How bout some new servers instead of fail programmers/project managers coming up with this garbage?
|
Darklin Eldaris
The Illuminati.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 20:05:00 -
[3942]
So, basically what you're saying is:
F*ck minmatar.
Seriously, without "ludicrous" speed what are minmatar ships. The vagabond, anyone?
The tanks, and damage output of minmatar need to be SERIOUSLY reconsidered if this nerf is going to be patched in. It is simply unfair to nerf an entire race, if this nerf goes in unchanged it is likely that I will play my caldari account, and you can take the $15 a month you used to get for this one and shove it up your entire ^&*. It is similarly as likely that I will just get fed up and quit the game entirely.
Simply because people found away around the norm in your game does not mean that you need to completely change it. This is not a "balance," it is a RADICAL change in the way your game will be played.
Tread lightly ccp, you've made enough mistakes as it is.
How bout some new servers instead of fail programmers/project managers coming up with this garbage?
|
Darklin Eldaris
The Illuminati.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 20:08:00 -
[3943]
Edited by: Darklin Eldaris on 08/08/2008 20:08:47
Originally by: Haptic Roach These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players.
this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
|
Darklin Eldaris
The Illuminati.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 20:08:00 -
[3944]
Edited by: Darklin Eldaris on 08/08/2008 20:08:47
Originally by: Haptic Roach These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players.
this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 22:34:00 -
[3945]
These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 22:34:00 -
[3946]
These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 23:14:00 -
[3947]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT.
This. Times infinity.
For those, ahem, 'younger' posters, who feel they can influence CCP's balancing by typing 'this' over and over and over again...
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 23:14:00 -
[3948]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 08/08/2008 23:16:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT.
This. Times infinity.
For those, ahem, 'younger' posters, who feel they can influence CCP's balancing by typing 'this' over and over and over again...
Edit: And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Develon Hitaki
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 00:08:00 -
[3949]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 08/08/2008 23:16:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT.
This. Times infinity.
For those, ahem, 'younger' posters, who feel they can influence CCP's balancing by typing 'this' over and over and over again...
Edit: And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
|
Develon Hitaki
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 00:08:00 -
[3950]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 08/08/2008 23:16:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer These changes are great. End of story. Eat that nano-phags and ADAPT.
This. Times infinity.
For those, ahem, 'younger' posters, who feel they can influence CCP's balancing by typing 'this' over and over and over again...
Edit: And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
|
|
Mogren
CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 00:32:00 -
[3951]
Originally by: Haptic Roach These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players.
Well said.
|
Mogren
CCCP INC
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 00:32:00 -
[3952]
Originally by: Haptic Roach These changes are going to make the game more boring.
It will be bad for small gang pvp. It is bad for new players because they don't see a clear exciting end-game.
Sitting around in cap ship lag fests is not an exciting end-game.
Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs is a great end-game. I was usually on the receiving end - but the nano gangs inspired me to train up and to come up with tactics that will beat them.
It inspired some people to run to the forums and whine.
CCP - stop reading the forums and play the game - what changes to game mechanics do you think will make the game more exciting to play?
Why is the responsibility for balancing handed around so much - why cant we have one senior developer responsible for setting the pvp philosophy for eve. At least then we can have some confidence in the long term direction pvp is moving in.
After the proposed carrier changes and this silly suggestion i am wondering how serious CCP is about keeping the game exciting for older players.
Well said.
|
Melwitax
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 05:25:00 -
[3953]
I don't make many posts in forum, but when I have I think I've been fairly consistent in theme. In a game like Eve where every player enjoys access to all the technologies available, it is NEVER necessary to nerf the capabilities of ships or modules. Such actions are win-lose for players and lose-lose for the company as inevitably someone is so aggrevated by the change that he or she opts to cancel. The course that should be taken, one that is both fair to non-nano ships and speed-demons alike is to introduce new items capable of combating these ships. By adding hypervelocity drones and missiles to the game you give people who fly slower ships, the ability to take on this threat while still allowing those who fly ultra-fast ships to get the most speed for the buck. This is a logical and natural progression of the game's technology whereas a nerf to all the speeds of the ships in the game represents a very unnatural change to the game's physics.
Find ways to give people choices instead of taking them away. In the end it makes everyone happier.
P.S. It's worth noting that most ships in Eve, including most interceptors, are already slower than the Space Shuttles. Kind of funny considering that there's supposed to be a 21,000 year difference between the world of New Eden and the present.
|
Melwitax
|
Posted - 2008.08.09 05:25:00 -
[3954]
I don't make many posts in forum, but when I have I think I've been fairly consistent in theme. In a game like Eve where every player enjoys access to all the technologies available, it is NEVER necessary to nerf the capabilities of ships or modules. Such actions are win-lose for players and lose-lose for the company as inevitably someone is so aggrevated by the change that he or she opts to cancel. The course that should be taken, one that is both fair to non-nano ships and speed-demons alike is to introduce new items capable of combating these ships. By adding hypervelocity drones and missiles to the game you give people who fly slower ships, the ability to take on this threat while still allowing those who fly ultra-fast ships to get the most speed for the buck. This is a logical and natural progression of the game's technology whereas a nerf to all the speeds of the ships in the game represents a very unnatural change to the game's physics.
Find ways to give people choices instead of taking them away. In the end it makes everyone happier.
P.S. It's worth noting that most ships in Eve, including most interceptors, are already slower than the Space Shuttles. Kind of funny considering that there's supposed to be a 21,000 year difference between the world of New Eden and the present.
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Zooooooom
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Posted - 2008.08.09 12:16:00 -
[3955]
So....the Deimos will be worthless then. Wonderful...It gives a great bonus to the mwd, but hey! It gets shut off by scramblers! And I have to be within 3-4k range to even shoot them. So if they have an AB then the Deimos can't keep up, even if it uses a web now that they only do -50%.
But if the Deimos puts on an AB, that's one wasted bonus the Deimos has. Then if I fit a scrambler, gate camping or solo engagements are nearly impossible since I can't get to them in time before they warp off.
I suppose I could do a dual web setup, but I'd have to lose an MWD or point, which is unacceptable. Seems like a dual webbing phobos is going to be a valued ship these days.
Let's not forget the tracking of blasters...now since we can't slow down our targets, we won't be able to hit them! Even if they're in a BC. All they have to do is use an AB and hitting them is a pain (still possible, but won't hit as much..)
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Zooooooom
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Posted - 2008.08.09 12:16:00 -
[3956]
So....the Deimos will be worthless then. Wonderful...It gives a great bonus to the mwd, but hey! It gets shut off by scramblers! And I have to be within 3-4k range to even shoot them. So if they have an AB then the Deimos can't keep up, even if it uses a web now that they only do -50%.
But if the Deimos puts on an AB, that's one wasted bonus the Deimos has. Then if I fit a scrambler, gate camping or solo engagements are nearly impossible since I can't get to them in time before they warp off.
I suppose I could do a dual web setup, but I'd have to lose an MWD or point, which is unacceptable. Seems like a dual webbing phobos is going to be a valued ship these days.
Let's not forget the tracking of blasters...now since we can't slow down our targets, we won't be able to hit them! Even if they're in a BC. All they have to do is use an AB and hitting them is a pain (still possible, but won't hit as much..)
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.09 16:58:00 -
[3957]
Sorry to tell you guys, but you are likely just wasting your time by making all of these posts. When Interdictor speeds were nerfed in late 2007, there was a thread that was kept alive for 6 months with suggestions and comments regarding why the nerf was wrong and how it had utterly destroyed a style of play along with an entire class of ships as well as with requests for GM/Dev response.
Response thread to the Dev's first time making this mistake.
Granted, not all of the posts were well-reasoned and not all of them were even remotely logical. The crux of the situation is that despite 6 months of their players asking for help to make what they had once flown (some to the point of exclusivity) viable once more, the thread received exactly 0 replies from the Devs and GMs. If they can completely ignore the player base for 6 months it seems quite unlikely that they will listen to you guys after just a couple of weeks, despite the higher post count given this change is planned to destroy more than just one small specialty ship class.
It would be nice if CCP would choose to learn from and rectify their earlier mistake instead of implementing a larger and more far-reaching version of it.
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.09 16:58:00 -
[3958]
Sorry to tell you guys, but you are likely just wasting your time by making all of these posts. When Interdictor speeds were nerfed in late 2007, there was a thread that was kept alive for 6 months with suggestions and comments regarding why the nerf was wrong and how it had utterly destroyed a style of play along with an entire class of ships as well as with requests for GM/Dev response.
Response thread to the Dev's first time making this mistake.
Granted, not all of the posts were well-reasoned and not all of them were even remotely logical. The crux of the situation is that despite 6 months of their players asking for help to make what they had once flown (some to the point of exclusivity) viable once more, the thread received exactly 0 replies from the Devs and GMs. If they can completely ignore the player base for 6 months it seems quite unlikely that they will listen to you guys after just a couple of weeks, despite the higher post count given this change is planned to destroy more than just one small specialty ship class.
It would be nice if CCP would choose to learn from and rectify their earlier mistake instead of implementing a larger and more far-reaching version of it.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2008.08.09 18:30:00 -
[3959]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
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Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2008.08.09 18:30:00 -
[3960]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
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Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.09 18:40:00 -
[3961]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
You have obviously put some thought into this and its nice to see somebody who is pro this nerf thinking instead of spouting the usual "i love your nano tears " crap.
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.09 18:40:00 -
[3962]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
So what is your suggestion on how to prevent the blasterboats from becoming totally obselete? And what about the huggin's role?
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
You have obviously put some thought into this and its nice to see somebody who is pro this nerf thinking instead of spouting the usual "i love your nano tears " crap.
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.09 20:25:00 -
[3963]
Originally by: marakor ....
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
Perhaps fit both an ab and an mwd? Multiple fitting options for midslots are now available. Roll up, roll up, get your new and exciting variations here!
Alternatively, get someone in your fleet to web and disrupt them, and then warp to your mate, and splinter 'em.
Finally, the best option, stay docked.
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.09 20:25:00 -
[3964]
Originally by: marakor ....
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
Perhaps fit both an ab and an mwd? Multiple fitting options for midslots are now available. Roll up, roll up, get your new and exciting variations here!
Alternatively, get someone in your fleet to web and disrupt them, and then warp to your mate, and splinter 'em.
Finally, the best option, stay docked.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.09 21:58:00 -
[3965]
Originally by: Vrinimous
Originally by: marakor ....
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
Perhaps fit both an ab and an mwd? Multiple fitting options for midslots are now available. Roll up, roll up, get your new and exciting variations here!
Alternatively, get someone in your fleet to web and disrupt them, and then warp to your mate, and splinter 'em.
Finally, the best option, stay docked.
Those are great suggestions thank you, now say its a moderately sized gang of say 20-30 not a big fleet but a good sized gang. Now id be interested to know if you had say a similar gang how you would web, disrupt and so on each or most of those ships all at the same time so they cannot shoot your tacklers?. And how does having both a mwd and a afterburner fitted help?.
I mean no disrespect at all but i have some experience at pvp and i have never seen any gang able to disrupt, web whatever 30 ships simultaneously with 60+ ships let alone the same number. Do not get me wrong your ideas may seem good to you or look good on paper but the reality is that they are impractical and rely on the opposing gang not shooting back, moving or doing anything but letting you shoot them tbh.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.09 21:58:00 -
[3966]
Edited by: marakor on 09/08/2008 23:58:10
Originally by: Vrinimous
Originally by: marakor ....
Unfortunately any ship approaching a hostile gang with or without a afterburner or even a mwd will be dust long before it gets into range to be able to turn off a mwd.
Perhaps fit both an ab and an mwd? Multiple fitting options for midslots are now available. Roll up, roll up, get your new and exciting variations here!
Alternatively, get someone in your fleet to web and disrupt them, and then warp to your mate, and splinter 'em.
Finally, the best option, stay docked.
Those are great suggestions thank you, now say its a moderately sized gang of say 20-30 not a big fleet but a good sized gang. Now id be interested to know if you had say a similar gang how you would web, disrupt and so on each or most of those ships all at the same time so they cannot shoot your tacklers?. And how does having both a mwd and a afterburner fitted help?.
I mean no disrespect at all but i have some experience at pvp and i have never seen any gang able to disrupt, web whatever 30 ships simultaneously with 60+ ships let alone the same number. Do not get me wrong your ideas may seem good to you or look good on paper but the reality is that they are impractical and rely on the opposing gang not shooting back, moving or doing anything but letting you shoot them tbh. And with a 30 vs 30 gang or even less all you need is good alpha and dps to pop stuff tackle is not needed.
As ppl have already said this speed nerf allows ppl to kill without tackling as long as they have dps and numbers while nano forced ppl to work as a team and tackle to kill even if ppl had a blob.
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BtodaC
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Posted - 2008.08.10 01:18:00 -
[3967]
"The course that should be taken, one that is both fair to non-nano ships and speed-demons alike is to introduce new items capable of combating these ships."
This statement makes sense. Nerfing is a very lazy way of balancing a game. Think of it as an arms race; people win by going fast so add more ability to combat their speed. These changes look like a blob boost and a very serious nerf for small gangs and i for one loathe laggy blob fights. I concede that doing over 6km/s is excessive but if these changes result in the nano tactic being unviable then the only tactic that remains is ever larger bs fleets. How will this make fights more 'unpredictable'?
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BtodaC
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.10 01:18:00 -
[3968]
"The course that should be taken, one that is both fair to non-nano ships and speed-demons alike is to introduce new items capable of combating these ships."
This statement makes sense. Nerfing is a very lazy way of balancing a game. Think of it as an arms race; people win by going fast so add more ability to combat their speed. These changes look like a blob boost and a very serious nerf for small gangs and i for one loathe laggy blob fights. I concede that doing over 6km/s is excessive but if these changes result in the nano tactic being unviable then the only tactic that remains is ever larger bs fleets. How will this make fights more 'unpredictable'?
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.10 07:01:00 -
[3969]
Originally by: marakor
Those are great suggestions thank you, now say its a moderately sized gang of say 20-30 not a big fleet but a good sized gang. Now id be interested to know if you had say a similar gang how you would web, disrupt and so on each or most of those ships all at the same time so they cannot shoot your tacklers?.
I am guilty of a certain light-heartedness - we will all survive the changes, and new methodologies will appear. The important thing to remember is that it is the playing field that will change. All players have the ability to be affected to the same degree - it's just that some players have specialised more than others, and so will feel the changes more. That's evolution in action, for you. Some tacklers will always die in an engagement, that's the way it should be, no-one should be able to attack with impunity.
Originally by: marakor
And how does having both a mwd and a afterburner fitted help?.
The mwd gets you close (as now), the ab helps you continue some speed after an mwd shutdown, maintains your transversal (if you like) and helps keep your tackler (or whatever) alive. It only helps, mind you. My comment was just a thought on how else, perhaps, to fit mid-slots.
Originally by: marakor
.... And with a 30 vs 30 gang or even less all you need is good alpha and dps to pop stuff tackle is not needed.
That has always been the case. A gang with their preferred range, and with sufficient alpha, can pop members of a gang who are not at their preferred range now. I don't really see any change there.
Originally by: marakor
As ppl have already said this speed nerf allows ppl to kill without tackling as long as they have dps and numbers while nano forced ppl to work as a team and tackle to kill even if ppl had a blob.
The same applies here, as in my previous comment. It's just a change of paradigm, that's all. If you want to work together, work together. A game mechanic, such as nano, should not be the only reason people fly together.
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.10 07:01:00 -
[3970]
Edited by: Vrinimous on 10/08/2008 07:08:03
Originally by: marakor
Those are great suggestions thank you, now say its a moderately sized gang of say 20-30 not a big fleet but a good sized gang. Now id be interested to know if you had say a similar gang how you would web, disrupt and so on each or most of those ships all at the same time so they cannot shoot your tacklers?.
I am guilty of a certain light-heartedness - we will all survive the changes, and new methodologies will appear. The important thing to remember is that it is the playing field that will change. All players have the ability to be affected to the same degree - it's just that some players have specialised more than others, and so will feel the changes more. That's evolution in action, for you. Some tacklers will always die in an engagement, that's the way it should be, no-one should be able to attack with impunity.
Originally by: marakor
And how does having both a mwd and a afterburner fitted help?.
The mwd gets you close (as now), the ab helps you continue some speed after an mwd shutdown, maintains your transversal (if you like) and helps keep your tackler (or whatever) alive. It only helps, mind you. My comment was just a thought on how else, perhaps, to fit mid-slots.
Originally by: marakor
.... And with a 30 vs 30 gang or even less all you need is good alpha and dps to pop stuff tackle is not needed.
That has always been the case. A gang with their preferred range, and with sufficient alpha, can pop members of a gang who are not at their preferred range now. I don't really see any change there.
Originally by: marakor
As ppl have already said this speed nerf allows ppl to kill without tackling as long as they have dps and numbers while nano forced ppl to work as a team and tackle to kill even if ppl had a blob.
The same applies here, as in my previous comment. It's just a change of paradigm, that's all. If you want to work together, work together. A game mechanic, such as nano, should not be the only reason people fly together.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.10 09:04:00 -
[3971]
Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 09:45:32
Originally by: Vrinimous
Some tacklers will always die in an engagement, that's the way it should be, no-one should be able to attack with impunity.
Do you not find it a paradox that CCP on one hand say they need to add and change modules so ppl can be tackled and thus killed. Then change the game so they do not need to be tackled at all?.
Originally by: Vrinimous The mwd gets you close (as now), the ab helps you continue some speed after an mwd shutdown, maintains your transversal (if you like) and helps keep your tackler (or whatever) alive. It only helps, mind you. My comment was just a thought on how else, perhaps, to fit mid-slots.
It does'nt work or help in the least its worthless to fit both in a gang fight. You should really get on the test server and try it cos after losing tackler after tackler you may understand the problem.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.10 09:04:00 -
[3972]
Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 09:45:32
Originally by: Vrinimous
Some tacklers will always die in an engagement, that's the way it should be, no-one should be able to attack with impunity.
Do you not find it a paradox that CCP on one hand say they need to add and change modules so ppl can be tackled and thus killed. Then change the game so they do not need to be tackled at all?.
Originally by: Vrinimous The mwd gets you close (as now), the ab helps you continue some speed after an mwd shutdown, maintains your transversal (if you like) and helps keep your tackler (or whatever) alive. It only helps, mind you. My comment was just a thought on how else, perhaps, to fit mid-slots.
It does'nt work or help in the least its worthless to fit both in a gang fight. You should really get on the test server and try it cos after losing tackler after tackler you may understand the problem.
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Suitonia
Gallente interimo
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Posted - 2008.08.10 10:11:00 -
[3973]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
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Suitonia
Gallente interimo
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Posted - 2008.08.10 10:11:00 -
[3974]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.10 11:04:00 -
[3975]
What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game. ------
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.10 11:04:00 -
[3976]
What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game. ------
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.10 12:52:00 -
[3977]
Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 12:54:22
Originally by: Patch86 What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favorite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.
As per usual with ppl supporting this nerf you are fixating on a utterly rare and extreme fit to give credit to unneeded changes.
Try to find a group of anti-nerf ppl who care about the extreme fits your talking about bud it will be very hard to find even one as most do not give a toss or care about the 30kms fits or the multi multi billion isk fit BS that go faster than basically fitted frigs.
This nerf has changed gang fights from "tackle it to kill it" to "alpha it to kill it", now that is breaking the game and removing the need for skill and team work bud.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.10 12:52:00 -
[3978]
Edited by: marakor on 10/08/2008 13:24:46
Originally by: Patch86 What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favorite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.
As per usual with ppl supporting this nerf you are fixating on a utterly rare and extreme fit to give credit to unneeded changes.
Try to find a group of anti-nerf ppl who care about the extreme fits your talking about bud it will be very hard to find even one as most do not give a toss or care about the 30kms fits or the multi multi billion isk fit BS that go faster than basically fitted frigs.
This nerf has changed gang fights from "tackle it to kill it" to "alpha it to kill it", now that is called breaking the game and removing the need for skill and team work bud.
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.10 18:36:00 -
[3979]
Edited by: Abrynn on 10/08/2008 18:38:40
Originally by: Patch86 What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.
you correct that is stupid but this nerf is also stupid....i agree a speed nerf is needed but not like this this nerfs alot of game mechanics not just one or 2 and a whole race...instead of all this crazy crap this Dev who has prolly never played the game wants to do (/me points to carrier nerf proposal) it simply takes a speed cap thats it your ship cant go no faster than whatever speed it should go due to mass .... no way should a BS be able to catch anything that isnt a BS totally agreed....
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.10 18:36:00 -
[3980]
Edited by: Abrynn on 10/08/2008 18:38:40
Originally by: Patch86 What was it nano fans were fond of saying? "Adapt or die"? Yep, thats the one.
A Battleship being able to out-pace a Frigate is and always will be ridiculous, and evidence of unintended game mechanics. Anyone who didn't see this fix coming must have been living in a dream world. Just because it was your favourite ship setup does not mean it was good for the game.
you correct that is stupid but this nerf is also stupid....i agree a speed nerf is needed but not like this this nerfs alot of game mechanics not just one or 2 and a whole race...instead of all this crazy crap this Dev who has prolly never played the game wants to do (/me points to carrier nerf proposal) it simply takes a speed cap thats it your ship cant go no faster than whatever speed it should go due to mass .... no way should a BS be able to catch anything that isnt a BS totally agreed....
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.10 18:44:00 -
[3981]
i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame
Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.
Developer: Thukker Mix
Improving on the original Stabber design, Thukker Mix created the Vagabond as a cruiser-sized skirmish vessel equally suited to defending mobile installations and executing lightning strikes at their enemies. Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements.
Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to max velocity per level
Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff range and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level
notice the bonus to SPEED!!!!! CCP get your heads out your ass.............
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Abrynn
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.08.10 18:44:00 -
[3982]
i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame
Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.
Developer: Thukker Mix
Improving on the original Stabber design, Thukker Mix created the Vagabond as a cruiser-sized skirmish vessel equally suited to defending mobile installations and executing lightning strikes at their enemies. Honoring their tradition of building the fastest vessels to ply the spacelanes, they count the Vagabond as one of their crowning achievements.
Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to max velocity per level
Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff range and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level
notice the bonus to SPEED!!!!! CCP get your heads out your ass.............
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.08.10 23:24:00 -
[3983]
It only specifies that it is "The fastest cruiser".
How fast does being "the fastest cruiser" require it to be?
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.08.10 23:24:00 -
[3984]
It only specifies that it is "The fastest cruiser".
How fast does being "the fastest cruiser" require it to be?
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Otto Traugott
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Posted - 2008.08.11 00:22:00 -
[3985]
Your proposed adjustments to ABs seem rather odd to me, especially in light of what you wish to accomplish. If you want to make afterburners more viable in PvP (especially relative to MWD), then I would suggest increasing their bonus both on the top and lower ends:
105% - 171% --> 150% - 225% (or maybe even 175% - 250%)
This adjustment provides a better middle ground between no propulsion upgrades and MWDs as well as increasing the combat value of AB modules. Note that modern jet fighters (i.e., here on humble Earth) have afterburners that provide a boost of 140% - 170% to speed. In an era of warp drives and space travel, I think technology can do much better, especially in a space environment of no wind resistance.
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Otto Traugott
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Posted - 2008.08.11 00:22:00 -
[3986]
Your proposed adjustments to ABs seem rather odd to me, especially in light of what you wish to accomplish. If you want to make afterburners more viable in PvP (especially relative to MWD), then I would suggest increasing their bonus both on the top and lower ends:
105% - 171% --> 150% - 225% (or maybe even 175% - 250%)
This adjustment provides a better middle ground between no propulsion upgrades and MWDs as well as increasing the combat value of AB modules. Note that modern jet fighters (i.e., here on humble Earth) have afterburners that provide a boost of 140% - 170% to speed. In an era of warp drives and space travel, I think technology can do much better, especially in a space environment of no wind resistance.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2008.08.11 09:56:00 -
[3987]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 11/08/2008 09:59:06
Originally by: Abrynn i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame...
And yet again:
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so
Ship description based stats ftl. Its just manufacturers advertising after all
Perhaps you should look through all the other ship descriptions and see how many of them exaggerate their ships capabilities, or is the Vaga description different because you think it proves your point?
edit: Ironically the Vaga has one of the few descriptions which is actually true. It is, and will remain post speed-buff, the fastest cruiser in the game.
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Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 09:56:00 -
[3988]
Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 11/08/2008 09:59:06
Originally by: Abrynn i just wanted to point this out this is the actual discription of the vaga ingame...
And yet again:
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse And those peeps who keep copying the Vagabond ship description? Well that's like saying MS Windows is a fantastic OS because, well, Microsoft say so
Ship description based stats ftl. Its just manufacturers advertising after all
Perhaps you should look through all the other ship descriptions and see how many of them exaggerate their ships capabilities, or is the Vaga description different because you think it proves your point?
edit: Ironically the Vaga has one of the few descriptions which is actually true. It is, and will remain post speed-buff, the fastest cruiser in the game.
------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.11 09:57:00 -
[3989]
Originally by: Amarr Holymight Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
I have to assume it's a joke.
This is an absolutely stellar PvE fit vs Serpentis and Gurista, with a change to a couple of hardeners... you can solo L5s and you can run most plexes of the appropriate type.
The lack of mobility on this fit means that PvP is only going to be done in a large fleet where you project your drones forward and you hang back at 60km++ (So why use Ogres? They're slow as a glacier). The guns are only for taking out drones that might have the temerity to engage you.
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.11 09:57:00 -
[3990]
Originally by: Amarr Holymight Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 06/08/2008 16:30:00
Originally by: Jakzin
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
This is almost as funny as the guy who said that armor tanking the vaga is a viable alternative and will become the new standard fast.
I tried this fit on SISI last week ur basically just flying an expensive Drake with a DPS/Tank tradeoff, whats the point?
I have to assume it's a joke.
This is an absolutely stellar PvE fit vs Serpentis and Gurista, with a change to a couple of hardeners... you can solo L5s and you can run most plexes of the appropriate type.
The lack of mobility on this fit means that PvP is only going to be done in a large fleet where you project your drones forward and you hang back at 60km++ (So why use Ogres? They're slow as a glacier). The guns are only for taking out drones that might have the temerity to engage you.
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Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:21:00 -
[3991]
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Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:21:00 -
[3992]
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Marqui De'Xentura
Shadow Company G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.11 17:45:00 -
[3993]
It is bewildering how so many sit and look at when devs decide to change something, they will biaatch and moan so they don't have to overcome the next challenge. I have seen so many changes in the game that can be considered both good and bad. I think what people really need to look at is there are 2 mods now that really need to be adjusted to bring viability back to them. Yes there are things that will not make them ideal for everyone, however it does not mean it can not be overcome. The 2 point scram has needed something fixed with them for years now. The disabling of a MWD brings them back into a viable mod to fit, does that mean everyone and their dog will fit them? Probably not, due to the problem they have always had, the range. Does that mean ships that get a bonus to them will use them, I am certain they will. If you also look at the ships that get the bonus, they need some help regardless.
The AB has definitely needed some help especially for PVP. This can be done in 1 of 2 ways either boost it or cut the effectiveness of webs and bring other ships speeds in line. Even by boosting it if you get hit by current T2 Webs, your speed is -90% so that 500m/s you were doing is now down to 50m/s, most times you won't get hit by just 1 but by multiple. Bringing you to a complete stop, so the obvious option is to cut the effectiveness of the webs. Does that mean Min pilots are going to complain hell yeah they will, but get over it you will still have a viable ship and mod.
Now rebalancing all ships across the board. It does make some sense, however the way it is being done from a physics stand point does not make any sense. A Larger Vessel is expected to go faster than a smaller vessel, primarily due to the ability to fit larger engines, now that larger vessel should not have a faster agility or take off speed than the smaller vessel. (This is factoring in Gravity, but this doesn't apply in a 0-grav) Example look a motorcycle vrs a Tractor Trailor. The weight and momentum of the Tractor Trailor will be able to attain the high-end speeds the motorcycle can do, but it can not get there as fast or stop in the same amount of time.
Now to hear all the cry baby's try to flame me for my opinions and before you do, yes I have tested this proposed change on Sisi and if your too dam stupid to figure out how to turn it into an advantage, maybe you should go play something alittle easier like WoW. For all the Nano PvPers that want to cry, yes I can and do fly Nano's does it mean you can't overcome this no. My history I have been playing this game since July 2003 and am over 60mil sp yeah I had some breaks. When I am able to spend more time in the game vrs R/L I get on aver of 100kills/month with 80% of those being solo, be it in nano or tanks. The vaga pilots get over oh my ship is now screwed, quit biatching and test to figure out how to overcome this. There are alot of viable options. You crying would be like me continuing to cry about give me back my resists getting my armor tank to 99% resists across the board on my bship so I only have to fit a small t1 armor repper. Just how fracking stupid would that be just because you can't figure out how to overcome this challenge. This does not kill small guerrilla tactics but will definitely make doing so a different strategy and not doing it with any and every ship they can dump enough isk and mods into. I will certainly expect to see a lot more Arazu's out there if it does go through, but again they won't be Gods by any means. http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4738/marquisigjw1.jpg |
Marqui De'Xentura
Shadow Company G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 17:45:00 -
[3994]
It is bewildering how so many sit and look at when devs decide to change something, they will biaatch and moan so they don't have to overcome the next challenge. I have seen so many changes in the game that can be considered both good and bad. I think what people really need to look at is there are 2 mods now that really need to be adjusted to bring viability back to them. Yes there are things that will not make them ideal for everyone, however it does not mean it can not be overcome. The 2 point scram has needed something fixed with them for years now. The disabling of a MWD brings them back into a viable mod to fit, does that mean everyone and their dog will fit them? Probably not, due to the problem they have always had, the range. Does that mean ships that get a bonus to them will use them, I am certain they will. If you also look at the ships that get the bonus, they need some help regardless.
The AB has definitely needed some help especially for PVP. This can be done in 1 of 2 ways either boost it or cut the effectiveness of webs and bring other ships speeds in line. Even by boosting it if you get hit by current T2 Webs, your speed is -90% so that 500m/s you were doing is now down to 50m/s, most times you won't get hit by just 1 but by multiple. Bringing you to a complete stop, so the obvious option is to cut the effectiveness of the webs. Does that mean Min pilots are going to complain hell yeah they will, but get over it you will still have a viable ship and mod.
Now rebalancing all ships across the board. It does make some sense, however the way it is being done from a physics stand point does not make any sense. A Larger Vessel is expected to go faster than a smaller vessel, primarily due to the ability to fit larger engines, now that larger vessel should not have a faster agility or take off speed than the smaller vessel. (This is factoring in Gravity, but this doesn't apply in a 0-grav) Example look a motorcycle vrs a Tractor Trailor. The weight and momentum of the Tractor Trailor will be able to attain the high-end speeds the motorcycle can do, but it can not get there as fast or stop in the same amount of time.
Now to hear all the cry baby's try to flame me for my opinions and before you do, yes I have tested this proposed change on Sisi and if your too dam stupid to figure out how to turn it into an advantage, maybe you should go play something alittle easier like WoW. For all the Nano PvPers that want to cry, yes I can and do fly Nano's does it mean you can't overcome this no. My history I have been playing this game since July 2003 and am over 60mil sp yeah I had some breaks. When I am able to spend more time in the game vrs R/L I get on aver of 100kills/month with 80% of those being solo, be it in nano or tanks. The vaga pilots get over oh my ship is now screwed, quit biatching and test to figure out how to overcome this. There are alot of viable options. You crying would be like me continuing to cry about give me back my resists getting my armor tank to 99% resists across the board on my bship so I only have to fit a small t1 armor repper. Just how fracking stupid would that be just because you can't figure out how to overcome this challenge. This does not kill small guerrilla tactics but will definitely make doing so a different strategy and not doing it with any and every ship they can dump enough isk and mods into. I will certainly expect to see a lot more Arazu's out there if it does go through, but again they won't be Gods by any means. http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4738/marquisigjw1.jpg |
Swren1
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:13:00 -
[3995]
ok, yes 18k etc with command ship bonus is ridiculos.... but c'mon vagabond / hacs do not have the tanking abilties available and makes this ship class useless in solo pvp and big fleet pvp, you stand absolutly no chance in suriving with hacs really anymore. - thanks for that !!! solo pvp nerfed/no more ??/??/08 ccp signed
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Swren1
Funny Men In Funny Hats Capital Storm
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:13:00 -
[3996]
ok, yes 18k etc with command ship bonus is ridiculos.... but c'mon vagabond / hacs do not have the tanking abilties available and makes this ship class useless in solo pvp and big fleet pvp, you stand absolutly no chance in suriving with hacs really anymore. - thanks for that !!! solo pvp nerfed/no more ??/??/08 ccp signed
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 -
[3997]
Well, after reading all 138 pages of this thread, I have decided that, as it really doesn't matter whether you approve or disapprove of the changes (they're coming in regardless), some people, perhaps all people, will have to change their play style.
And that's all to the good - a good shake-up never hurt anybody.
Also, given the fact that it's very difficult to show tone of voice, emphasis, sarcasm, a lightness of touch, etc., within the language as she is typed, I have decided that all my future thoughts on this subject will be communicated to you all through the medium of...
...DANCE!
tra la
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Vrinimous
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 -
[3998]
Well, after reading all 138 pages of this thread, I have decided that, as it really doesn't matter whether you approve or disapprove of the changes (they're coming in regardless), some people, perhaps all people, will have to change their play style.
And that's all to the good - a good shake-up never hurt anybody.
Also, given the fact that it's very difficult to show tone of voice, emphasis, sarcasm, a lightness of touch, etc., within the language as she is typed, I have decided that all my future thoughts on this subject will be communicated to you all through the medium of...
...DANCE!
tra la
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.12 01:44:00 -
[3999]
Originally by: Selnix Sorry to tell you guys, but you are likely just wasting your time by making all of these posts. When Interdictor speeds were nerfed in late 2007, there was a thread that was kept alive for 6 months with suggestions and comments regarding why the nerf was wrong and how it had utterly destroyed a style of play along with an entire class of ships as well as with requests for GM/Dev response.
Response thread to the Dev's first time making this mistake.
Granted, not all of the posts were well-reasoned and not all of them were even remotely logical. The crux of the situation is that despite 6 months of their players asking for help to make what they had once flown (some to the point of exclusivity) viable once more, the thread received exactly 0 replies from the Devs and GMs. If they can completely ignore the player base for 6 months it seems quite unlikely that they will listen to you guys after just a couple of weeks, despite the higher post count given this change is planned to destroy more than just one small specialty ship class.
It would be nice if CCP would choose to learn from and rectify their earlier mistake instead of implementing a larger and more far-reaching version of it.
Aren't dictors getting faster base speeds from this change and being made faster overall in comparison to other ships?
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.12 01:44:00 -
[4000]
Originally by: Selnix Sorry to tell you guys, but you are likely just wasting your time by making all of these posts. When Interdictor speeds were nerfed in late 2007, there was a thread that was kept alive for 6 months with suggestions and comments regarding why the nerf was wrong and how it had utterly destroyed a style of play along with an entire class of ships as well as with requests for GM/Dev response.
Response thread to the Dev's first time making this mistake.
Granted, not all of the posts were well-reasoned and not all of them were even remotely logical. The crux of the situation is that despite 6 months of their players asking for help to make what they had once flown (some to the point of exclusivity) viable once more, the thread received exactly 0 replies from the Devs and GMs. If they can completely ignore the player base for 6 months it seems quite unlikely that they will listen to you guys after just a couple of weeks, despite the higher post count given this change is planned to destroy more than just one small specialty ship class.
It would be nice if CCP would choose to learn from and rectify their earlier mistake instead of implementing a larger and more far-reaching version of it.
Aren't dictors getting faster base speeds from this change and being made faster overall in comparison to other ships?
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speedcat
Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 11:45:00 -
[4001]
Well I haven't read all the pages but I can say as a Gallente I totally disagree with this changes... they are too much in one change. I for sure agree that the game itself (not just single ships) but a Vagabond especially are too fast. It's just a bad joke that a HAC is as fast or faster than an interceptor. It's also a bad joke that a Battleships is as fast as a cruiser.
As always I have spaceship movies in my mind and the epic fights they do there. But always I'm watching these movies (btw also the trailers of EvE) I know what's wrong with the gameplay itself.
Everything is too fast not just the ships... the travel itself from one end of the universe to the other, the clonejumping idea, everything is too fast. This has to change in future to guarantee a different playstyle. There has to be done massive changes.
But not in a single patch. And not this way...
My suggestion for this patch are, that the so called "speedy gonzales" ships get cut with penalties or malus on the speed modules like suggested by the Devs.
But don't touch "Webbers" as you also can do nothing about speed if you Nerf the main modul to hold speedy ships. This is just a very bad idea, sorry CCP.
My idea for another view of the things is that in space normally an object can go as fast as you get it boosted/speeded up. But then the "thing/object" will go steady ahead with that speed without any active module, right?
That in mind the speed-modules (MWD, AB) should be modules which have to accelerate AND decelerate the vehicle/object in space. So there would be values which combined with the mass of the ship automatically result in a maximum speed of the ship cause for higher speeds the module has longer to break down to zero again. Also there should be no energy use if the ship has the reached the manually defined or maximum speed as this is just not correct in space. Of course this is getting complex to handle manually so this should be integrated in the modules itself. The idea to have a cap negative bonus for MWD is correct as exactly this should be the buffer for the engine to accelerate and break but not to hold speed. This should be also adapted to the Afterburner.
In one sentence: The max. speed should be calculated on the basis of a few values out of the ship... there is a mass to be accelerated and decelerated again... to do this the power of the engine as well as the ships mass is essential... to maneuver a ship well, there should be a given time to every ship class in which it has to reach max. speed and max. speed to zero again or something.
Just an idea.
best regards, speed
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speedcat
Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 11:45:00 -
[4002]
Well I haven't read all the pages but I can say as a Gallente I totally disagree with this changes... they are too much in one change. I for sure agree that the game itself (not just single ships) but a Vagabond especially are too fast. It's just a bad joke that a HAC is as fast or faster than an interceptor. It's also a bad joke that a Battleships is as fast as a cruiser.
As always I have spaceship movies in my mind and the epic fights they do there. But always I'm watching these movies (btw also the trailers of EvE) I know what's wrong with the gameplay itself.
Everything is too fast not just the ships... the travel itself from one end of the universe to the other, the clonejumping idea, everything is too fast. This has to change in future to guarantee a different playstyle. There has to be done massive changes.
But not in a single patch. And not this way...
My suggestion for this patch are, that the so called "speedy gonzales" ships get cut with penalties or malus on the speed modules like suggested by the Devs.
But don't touch "Webbers" as you also can do nothing about speed if you Nerf the main modul to hold speedy ships. This is just a very bad idea, sorry CCP.
My idea for another view of the things is that in space normally an object can go as fast as you get it boosted/speeded up. But then the "thing/object" will go steady ahead with that speed without any active module, right?
That in mind the speed-modules (MWD, AB) should be modules which have to accelerate AND decelerate the vehicle/object in space. So there would be values which combined with the mass of the ship automatically result in a maximum speed of the ship cause for higher speeds the module has longer to break down to zero again. Also there should be no energy use if the ship has the reached the manually defined or maximum speed as this is just not correct in space. Of course this is getting complex to handle manually so this should be integrated in the modules itself. The idea to have a cap negative bonus for MWD is correct as exactly this should be the buffer for the engine to accelerate and break but not to hold speed. This should be also adapted to the Afterburner.
In one sentence: The max. speed should be calculated on the basis of a few values out of the ship... there is a mass to be accelerated and decelerated again... to do this the power of the engine as well as the ships mass is essential... to maneuver a ship well, there should be a given time to every ship class in which it has to reach max. speed and max. speed to zero again or something.
Just an idea.
best regards, speed
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Good Samaritan
Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
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Posted - 2008.08.12 12:33:00 -
[4003]
I think what has been proposed is a bit much. I agree that interceptors with speeds of 10KMS + do need a bit of a slow down, as do HACS / Faction ships which can achive 7KMS +.
What you must consider is the amount of time and effort put into training and fitting these ships VS the amount of effort required to counter them. For instance my crow will do 10KMS but to do so requires quite a specialist fit, round 100 mill on rigs alone.Is it then fair to assume that a battle cruiser should be able to take me out just because the guy flying it wants his ship to be able to do everything?
Its quite easy to take down a speed tanked ship if you have the correct setup. Several drone navigation computers can have warrior II going 10kms + and a light missile caracal can also easily shoot down speeding ships.
Whats required I feel are more dedicated anti speed modules for specific ships. The minmatar recons are a good example of such ships, with bonus to webs. Perhaps some of the interceptor class ships should be given bonus`s to web range and strength? or perhaps implement the 7.5kms MWD killing scramblers to these or other specific ships.
Either way I feel it will be unfair if speed tankers can be despatched by cheap setups with little invested skill when they cost so much time and money to set them up.
Also consider the effect these nerfs will have on the speed mod economy and the minmatar race ships in particular. Vagas arnt going to be much use , nor will rep fleet stabbers. So its not really fair on the people who produce such items either.
In conclusion :
YES to more specific anti speed ships bonus`s, interceptors with specific anti speed bonus`s ect. Make it so speedy ships can be counterd with the use of an equal investment.
NO to a poorly thought out general speed nerf. EVE is unique because it has so many diverse playstyles. If somone is good at a particular playstyle and has spent time and money on it then they deserve to have an advantage over somone who would rather whinge about being owned than think about how best to counter that playstyle.
Love and Kisses
GS Tea And Scones Please |
Good Samaritan
Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 12:33:00 -
[4004]
I think what has been proposed is a bit much. I agree that interceptors with speeds of 10KMS + do need a bit of a slow down, as do HACS / Faction ships which can achive 7KMS +.
What you must consider is the amount of time and effort put into training and fitting these ships VS the amount of effort required to counter them. For instance my crow will do 10KMS but to do so requires quite a specialist fit, round 100 mill on rigs alone.Is it then fair to assume that a battle cruiser should be able to take me out just because the guy flying it wants his ship to be able to do everything?
Its quite easy to take down a speed tanked ship if you have the correct setup. Several drone navigation computers can have warrior II going 10kms + and a light missile caracal can also easily shoot down speeding ships.
Whats required I feel are more dedicated anti speed modules for specific ships. The minmatar recons are a good example of such ships, with bonus to webs. Perhaps some of the interceptor class ships should be given bonus`s to web range and strength? or perhaps implement the 7.5kms MWD killing scramblers to these or other specific ships.
Either way I feel it will be unfair if speed tankers can be despatched by cheap setups with little invested skill when they cost so much time and money to set them up.
Also consider the effect these nerfs will have on the speed mod economy and the minmatar race ships in particular. Vagas arnt going to be much use , nor will rep fleet stabbers. So its not really fair on the people who produce such items either.
In conclusion :
YES to more specific anti speed ships bonus`s, interceptors with specific anti speed bonus`s ect. Make it so speedy ships can be counterd with the use of an equal investment.
NO to a poorly thought out general speed nerf. EVE is unique because it has so many diverse playstyles. If somone is good at a particular playstyle and has spent time and money on it then they deserve to have an advantage over somone who would rather whinge about being owned than think about how best to counter that playstyle.
Love and Kisses
GS Tea And Scones Please |
Voreshem MalDoran
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:43:00 -
[4005]
Personally, I believe that this KILLS the usage of an interceptor, I agree with many of the other posts about how a ceptor after this nerf will be able to be countered by a caracal with light missiles, or warrior 2s with a few drone navs. If this nerf goes as followed WHAT will an interceptor be for? Those who regularly PVP already know how to counter a ceptor that goes in excess of 10km/s, a. neut ship, b. other ceptors, or c. Huginn/Rapier...
I believe that this nerf if FAR too complex and too many things will have to be implemented in order to make it all fair. All these special mods, special bonuses, etc. I also believe that this will kill gallente blaster boat tactics, kill the use on the interceptor, and only give rise to large gangs.
I do have a couple suggestions though.
I believe that a thing in eve to encourage is SPECIALIZATION, so
1. Another class of T2 Cruiser "Heavy Interceptors" with special speed bonuses, or the ability to fit a specialized MWD.
2. Special MWD mod for interceptors which make it exempt from the warpscrambler boost, which also provides a special speed boost so that there isn't a need for overdrives, or polycarbs so the interceptor becomes a more viable combat option.
and / or
3. Increase the Heavy interdictor's bubble radius and have it disable MWDs as well, because if you're going to kill most other viable battle tactics, you may as well do it for everyone........
In this game, there should be ways for players to counter tactics and specialization, but it should come from knowledge of your opponent's ship type, and tactics, not from nerfing everyone's abilities.
Everything Nano can already be countered, you just need the right amount of specialization. Example
nano vaga, countered by nano huginn, nano curse, or a couple ceptors. (if the vaga wants to warpjam you, he has to get within web/neut range, if he doesn't send ceptors)
Cerberus with missile speed rigs can also take out many nano cruisers.
10km/s + ceptors? not a worry, send a few ceptors after it, OR wait for them to make a mistake and use a huginn / curse.
I believe that the interceptor fills a very much needed tactical niche which would be totally killed by this patch plan (along with many other tactical plans which this plan would kill)
It's not that we need this patch, it's that we need to encourage more thinking, more planning, and more specialization amongst players. I think that there's a counter to every tactic in EVE, you just have to know it, and have to have the skills.
In my opinion, it's FAR better to be able to fly 3 ship types of one race with excellence than fly 8 classes of all races....
People don't stretch your skillpoints so thin. it takes time to counter everything. Think, and be prepared.
|
Voreshem MalDoran
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 16:43:00 -
[4006]
Personally, I believe that this KILLS the usage of an interceptor, I agree with many of the other posts about how a ceptor after this nerf will be able to be countered by a caracal with light missiles, or warrior 2s with a few drone navs. If this nerf goes as followed WHAT will an interceptor be for? Those who regularly PVP already know how to counter a ceptor that goes in excess of 10km/s, a. neut ship, b. other ceptors, or c. Huginn/Rapier...
I believe that this nerf if FAR too complex and too many things will have to be implemented in order to make it all fair. All these special mods, special bonuses, etc. I also believe that this will kill gallente blaster boat tactics, kill the use on the interceptor, and only give rise to large gangs.
I do have a couple suggestions though.
I believe that a thing in eve to encourage is SPECIALIZATION, so
1. Another class of T2 Cruiser "Heavy Interceptors" with special speed bonuses, or the ability to fit a specialized MWD.
2. Special MWD mod for interceptors which make it exempt from the warpscrambler boost, which also provides a special speed boost so that there isn't a need for overdrives, or polycarbs so the interceptor becomes a more viable combat option.
and / or
3. Increase the Heavy interdictor's bubble radius and have it disable MWDs as well, because if you're going to kill most other viable battle tactics, you may as well do it for everyone........
In this game, there should be ways for players to counter tactics and specialization, but it should come from knowledge of your opponent's ship type, and tactics, not from nerfing everyone's abilities.
Everything Nano can already be countered, you just need the right amount of specialization. Example
nano vaga, countered by nano huginn, nano curse, or a couple ceptors. (if the vaga wants to warpjam you, he has to get within web/neut range, if he doesn't send ceptors)
Cerberus with missile speed rigs can also take out many nano cruisers.
10km/s + ceptors? not a worry, send a few ceptors after it, OR wait for them to make a mistake and use a huginn / curse.
I believe that the interceptor fills a very much needed tactical niche which would be totally killed by this patch plan (along with many other tactical plans which this plan would kill)
It's not that we need this patch, it's that we need to encourage more thinking, more planning, and more specialization amongst players. I think that there's a counter to every tactic in EVE, you just have to know it, and have to have the skills.
In my opinion, it's FAR better to be able to fly 3 ship types of one race with excellence than fly 8 classes of all races....
People don't stretch your skillpoints so thin. it takes time to counter everything. Think, and be prepared.
|
Vladameir Harkenin
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 17:41:00 -
[4007]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
Or you could do it the intelligent way, train amarr bs rank 5, train large energy weapon rank 5, train pulse laser spec rank 4 and poof, problem solved...although this doesn't solve the problem only shows the imbalance of the situation.
|
Vladameir Harkenin
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 17:41:00 -
[4008]
Edited by: Vladameir Harkenin on 12/08/2008 20:42:33
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Oh I don't know, perhaps you could bring something small and tanked to turn off your targets MWD and web him, and AF or two maybe, and then close to deal some major DPS. You know, brings some friends.
Its kinda like the nanosaurs telling us we had to bring a rapier, or had to use neuts or had to fit all our ships specifically and have a certain gang composition to take them on with one of the many 'apparent' counters.
At last we have some different options, you could possibly try some...
Or you could do it the intelligent way, train amarr bs rank 5, train large energy weapon rank 5, train pulse laser spec rank 4 and poof, problem solved...although this doesn't solve the problem only shows the imbalance of the situation.
Yes you should bring some specialized ships and setting up your ship in a certain way to kill a gang that is specifically setup. Why do you think rr gangs are good at breaking up gate camps? Because they absorb the damage, they are specifically setup to breach gate camps. Does this mean they are overpowered, no, they have to use tactics in order to keep each other alive (timing is key), they have to use strategy to kill there enemy instead of target locking whatever comes through the gate and shooting it.
It's not there fault the gate camp probably consisted of whatever said pilot decided to fly for the day instead of the gang specifically setting up for sole purpose.
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 19:20:00 -
[4009]
I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)... and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel. -----
|
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 19:20:00 -
[4010]
I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)... and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel. -----
|
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:01:00 -
[4011]
Originally by: Kery Syander I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...
You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have shitty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.
Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...
Quote:
and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship. ------------------------------------------
|
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:01:00 -
[4012]
Originally by: Kery Syander I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...
You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have shitty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.
Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...
Quote:
and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship. ------------------------------------------
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Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 -
[4013]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kery Syander I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...
You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have shitty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.
Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...
Quote:
and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.
Heres a shot in the dark: because they are Minmatar? Because speed is thier racial ability and without they are pure shite?
I'll avoid blabbering about drones or nuets (although they are valid counters.) I have a corp mate who killed 2 nanoships and a bb in cruise raven... On TQ... Solo. Shut up.
http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=606
Heres another... Battleships vs super-fast nano vindi... I'll admit his fit is a little fail, but he was doing way over 7k and he is still dead.
http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=806
I'll admit a BS shouldn't be able to hit those speeds, but all the same, it died, just like all nanos do. They can be killed by non-nanos.
|
Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 -
[4014]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kery Syander I also can't help but laugh at Nozh's argument for why nanos are overpowered because the same arguments could be made for other playstyles. Aren't tanks overpowered? I know of only one solution to killing a passive tanked drake (bring more dps)...
You can't really compare the trouble a nano-has can do with the one of a passive drake. The passive drake will be slow as a brick, won't kill you without tackling mods, will have shitty dps, won't be able to escape unfavorable odds.
Overall, that's a setup for pvp noobs, who make their own survival more important that what they bring to their gang...
Quote:
and I'm not even mentioning that the 'only one way to kill nanos is to nano yourself' is both moronic and false. I really can't believe the majority of devs actually bought into this drivel.
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.
Heres a shot in the dark: because they are Minmatar? Because speed is thier racial ability and without they are pure shite?
I'll avoid blabbering about drones or nuets (although they are valid counters.) I have a corp mate who killed 2 nanoships and a bb in cruise raven... On TQ... Solo. Shut up.
http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=606
Heres another... Battleships vs super-fast nano vindi... I'll admit his fit is a little fail, but he was doing way over 7k and he is still dead.
http://viperlounge.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=806
I'll admit a BS shouldn't be able to hit those speeds, but all the same, it died, just like all nanos do. They can be killed by non-nanos.
|
Vladameir Harkenin
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:25:00 -
[4015]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.
So they can take advantage of speedtanking. But seriously they don't have crap for tank slots, can't shield tank do to ewar and a 4 slot amour tank may work for amarr or gallente, but they have decent resist on armor, whereas minnie have lots of wholes in there armor, hence they speed tank. Still a 4 slot tank even for amarr or gallente is cutting it close, but doable do to decent base resist on t2 ships.
On another note they rolled back sisi and have applied a new mirror...just have to wait and see what happens now.
|
Vladameir Harkenin
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:25:00 -
[4016]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Then explain just why most huginns and rapiers are nano-fitted? They're the specialized anti-nano ships, they shouldn't need that, yet they do it. Why?
And don't start srpouting rethoric about neuts and drones and stuff, that's not going to kill a nanoship.
So they can take advantage of speedtanking. But seriously they don't have crap for tank slots, can't shield tank do to ewar and a 4 slot amour tank may work for amarr or gallente, but they have decent resist on armor, whereas minnie have lots of wholes in there armor, hence they speed tank. Still a 4 slot tank even for amarr or gallente is cutting it close, but doable do to decent base resist on t2 ships.
On another note they rolled back sisi and have applied a new mirror...just have to wait and see what happens now.
|
Lucai
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:40:00 -
[4017]
Edited by: Lucai on 12/08/2008 20:43:59 Adding to Vladameir, the ladies and gents in here might be interested in the following:
Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer The speed changes have been rolled back on Singularity. There will be a devblog with a more elaborate explanation.
You will be able to continue testing them on Multiplicity, once a new mirror is in place there.
Original post
Lets see if this thread manages to reach 200 pages
|
Lucai
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 20:40:00 -
[4018]
Edited by: Lucai on 12/08/2008 20:52:55
Adding to Vladameir, the ladies and gents in here might be interested in the following:
Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer The speed changes have been rolled back on Singularity. There will be a devblog with a more elaborate explanation.
You will be able to continue testing them on Multiplicity, once a new mirror is in place there.
Original post
Have a look Here for details.
Lets see if this thread manages to reach 200 pages
|
Hab0k
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 21:02:00 -
[4019]
CCP. Why not creat more counters toward speed, amp up missile spead amp up drone spead. this game needs to be fast. I have always preformed well as an interdictor pilot untill the nerf. because speed saved me. so my question is, Why make these ships (all ships that use speed) become useless? why not just create new counter nano mods? I Was thinking What should be done and what is being done are two different things. Here is my idea... All these people say OH my GOD NANO MOTHER ******* are destroying this game! But truely it is not hard to stop us. slap a web on us or if you are in a battle ship fit neuts. I like the idea of the scrams turning off the mwd but in a sence why have a mod do more that one thing? why not make a mod (like a neut small med and large with diff ranges) have the ability to turn off the mwd and keep it off as long as that module has its mwd disruptor on the target. The speed that is used by nano pilots is not different than a 1000dps resistant drake. (which is super easy to aquire) there are just different ways to take down these ships. Truely the only nanos with dps are nanos such as hacs. and a solo hac cant mwd forever unless you have a setup for that. and then your dps suffers. the way you take a drake out is with a slew of ships. Now some one said to me. "Hab0k, dont you understand? if i am being engaged by 10 nanos i am dead and i cant even take one with me... I know because it happend to me!" Then i asked this player, "well, tell me. If there were 4 battle ships attacking you while you where ratting do you think you could take one with you. because after you broke its tank im sure it would warp." The reply was that it probly would but atleast you can hit it. so i said "True true but why not fit a counter mesure, such as a neut." he said he did have one but that guy warped off after he used it on the hostile. so i asked "well how is that different from breaking another battleships tank and it warping off? because the capacitor is truely the ships tank. because once that runs out than the ship is dead. if you had a warp disruptor on yourtr ship than it would be dead just like any other ship. and you could probly repeate this process until they run." Truely this is how the game is. there is no way that nanos can be invincible becauise they die all the time. when you see engagments in huge battles its not like there are really shyte tons of nanos. there bs's. so that aspect is still solid. truely when fleets engage a squad of nano pilots they are in the wrong to say OMFG they are too damn strong. because they are the ones bringing the wrong equipment. they need to be educated about the way to counter such threats instead of being so rediculous about it an saying that it is unfair.
I like eve to have boundaries but when boundaries begin to counter pilots that revolve around a style of playing so much that they become unplayable that is bogus.
Eve-online is a free thinking game. and the only issue is that you are only hearing the victems complaining. a good portion of this game is already conqured by large alliances so how are the small corps supposed to remain free to ccombat? join an alliance as there bit** i dont think that should have to be required for combat. Do factional warfare where there are already amped up numbers of hostiles to the point where you would just be fighting larger blobs? not worth it.
The interdictor nerf that occured a while back will be further burried under this nerf... they will move at maybe 2km/s. so tell me how do you use an interdictor? has it become as usless as an assault frig?
(here is a new idea! why not create 1 more assault frig per class and give them the abilitys to shut off MWD's from 50% further per level.
Instead of converting the scrams that will now point and web targets to become crazily over powered.
More thought needs to be put into this.
Sure speed is crazy but to nerf it entirely drops that out of the game is even crazier.
|
Hab0k
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 21:02:00 -
[4020]
CCP. Why not creat more counters toward speed, amp up missile spead amp up drone spead. this game needs to be fast. I have always preformed well as an interdictor pilot untill the nerf. because speed saved me. so my question is, Why make these ships (all ships that use speed) become useless? why not just create new counter nano mods? I Was thinking What should be done and what is being done are two different things. Here is my idea... All these people say OH my GOD NANO MOTHER ******* are destroying this game! But truely it is not hard to stop us. slap a web on us or if you are in a battle ship fit neuts. I like the idea of the scrams turning off the mwd but in a sence why have a mod do more that one thing? why not make a mod (like a neut small med and large with diff ranges) have the ability to turn off the mwd and keep it off as long as that module has its mwd disruptor on the target. The speed that is used by nano pilots is not different than a 1000dps resistant drake. (which is super easy to aquire) there are just different ways to take down these ships. Truely the only nanos with dps are nanos such as hacs. and a solo hac cant mwd forever unless you have a setup for that. and then your dps suffers. the way you take a drake out is with a slew of ships. Now some one said to me. "Hab0k, dont you understand? if i am being engaged by 10 nanos i am dead and i cant even take one with me... I know because it happend to me!" Then i asked this player, "well, tell me. If there were 4 battle ships attacking you while you where ratting do you think you could take one with you. because after you broke its tank im sure it would warp." The reply was that it probly would but atleast you can hit it. so i said "True true but why not fit a counter mesure, such as a neut." he said he did have one but that guy warped off after he used it on the hostile. so i asked "well how is that different from breaking another battleships tank and it warping off? because the capacitor is truely the ships tank. because once that runs out than the ship is dead. if you had a warp disruptor on yourtr ship than it would be dead just like any other ship. and you could probly repeate this process until they run." Truely this is how the game is. there is no way that nanos can be invincible becauise they die all the time. when you see engagments in huge battles its not like there are really shyte tons of nanos. there bs's. so that aspect is still solid. truely when fleets engage a squad of nano pilots they are in the wrong to say OMFG they are too damn strong. because they are the ones bringing the wrong equipment. they need to be educated about the way to counter such threats instead of being so rediculous about it an saying that it is unfair.
I like eve to have boundaries but when boundaries begin to counter pilots that revolve around a style of playing so much that they become unplayable that is bogus.
Eve-online is a free thinking game. and the only issue is that you are only hearing the victems complaining. a good portion of this game is already conqured by large alliances so how are the small corps supposed to remain free to ccombat? join an alliance as there bit** i dont think that should have to be required for combat. Do factional warfare where there are already amped up numbers of hostiles to the point where you would just be fighting larger blobs? not worth it.
The interdictor nerf that occured a while back will be further burried under this nerf... they will move at maybe 2km/s. so tell me how do you use an interdictor? has it become as usless as an assault frig?
(here is a new idea! why not create 1 more assault frig per class and give them the abilitys to shut off MWD's from 50% further per level.
Instead of converting the scrams that will now point and web targets to become crazily over powered.
More thought needs to be put into this.
Sure speed is crazy but to nerf it entirely drops that out of the game is even crazier.
|
|
Zaranya Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 23:35:00 -
[4021]
Nice! Make Specialized webbers that only affect MWDs that have extra range and can only be fit on Assault Frigates? That might actually make them useful.
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Zaranya Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 23:35:00 -
[4022]
Nice! Make Specialized webbers that only affect MWDs that have extra range and can only be fit on Assault Frigates? That might actually make them useful.
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Kareena Evol
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 04:32:00 -
[4023]
Right lets discuss this in a bit more in depth you wanna reduce ridiculous speeds, heres a Crow fit with max skills going 50km/s with all the boosts possible ...
Domination Overdrive Injector Domination Overdrive Injector Domination Overdrive Injector
Gistii A-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Polycarbon Engine Housing II Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Ok now you want to get this down to around 20km/s per se without messing up the game for everybody and nerfing everything people care about too hard.
First change x-boosters to only effect sig radius as suggested in blog seems like good tradeoff.
43.9km/s
Change Polycarbons Mass -10% for T2 & Mass -5% for T1.
36.6km/s
Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus split this to -5% velocity and -5% inertia bonus
34.9km/s
Module: Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment 28.81% (Nozh wrote 38.8%) speedFactor reduce this to 19%
31km/s
Pirate Implants - Snake - 53.63% velocityBonus change to circa 45% Shaqil's speed enhancer - 8% speedFactor leave it Zors custom navigation 5% speedFactor - change to effect some other attribute like inertia or sig radius
26.5km/s
Nanofiber Internal Structure - -12.5% massBonus Overdrive Injector System - 22% velocityBonus change to 17.2%
23.9km/s
Overheating
Overheating MWD - speedFactor +50% change to 33%
Voila
21.3km/s
Well thats not too bad now a Ten billion setup with a buddy in a command ship and mindlinks on one of the fastest ships only doing 21.3km/s
A Vaga with similar setup is reduced to 18.5 km/s from 35. This does not effect how the game works for the average player but reduces potential ludicrous speeds more than 50%.
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Kareena Evol
The Chaos Engine
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 04:32:00 -
[4024]
Right lets discuss this in a bit more in depth you wanna reduce ridiculous speeds, heres a Crow fit with max skills going 50km/s with all the boosts possible ...
Domination Overdrive Injector Domination Overdrive Injector Domination Overdrive Injector
Gistii A-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Polycarbon Engine Housing II Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Ok now you want to get this down to around 20km/s per se without messing up the game for everybody and nerfing everything people care about too hard.
First change x-boosters to only effect sig radius as suggested in blog seems like good tradeoff.
43.9km/s
Change Polycarbons Mass -10% for T2 & Mass -5% for T1.
36.6km/s
Skill: Skirmish Warfare - 10% velocityBonus split this to -5% velocity and -5% inertia bonus
34.9km/s
Module: Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment 28.81% (Nozh wrote 38.8%) speedFactor reduce this to 19%
31km/s
Pirate Implants - Snake - 53.63% velocityBonus change to circa 45% Shaqil's speed enhancer - 8% speedFactor leave it Zors custom navigation 5% speedFactor - change to effect some other attribute like inertia or sig radius
26.5km/s
Nanofiber Internal Structure - -12.5% massBonus Overdrive Injector System - 22% velocityBonus change to 17.2%
23.9km/s
Overheating
Overheating MWD - speedFactor +50% change to 33%
Voila
21.3km/s
Well thats not too bad now a Ten billion setup with a buddy in a command ship and mindlinks on one of the fastest ships only doing 21.3km/s
A Vaga with similar setup is reduced to 18.5 km/s from 35. This does not effect how the game works for the average player but reduces potential ludicrous speeds more than 50%.
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Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 08:07:00 -
[4025]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Edited by: XxAngelxX on 25/07/2008 11:02:16 Thanks so much for this CCP!
I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords.
I have to admit these changes do sound like CCP is ringing in the command ship age, which pretty much ended when nanos became popular.
Should i hold a funeral for my rapier? Poor thing won't be seeing much action anymore.
Long Live the DRAKE! -----
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Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 08:07:00 -
[4026]
Originally by: XxAngelxX Edited by: XxAngelxX on 25/07/2008 11:02:16 Thanks so much for this CCP!
I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords.
I have to admit these changes do sound like CCP is ringing in the command ship age, which pretty much ended when nanos became popular.
Should i hold a funeral for my rapier? Poor thing won't be seeing much action anymore.
Long Live the DRAKE! -----
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 21:34:00 -
[4027]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.08.13 21:34:00 -
[4028]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
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Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.13 22:17:00 -
[4029]
Don't nerf the damn web and if you have to make something to shut down mwd's then make it a new damn item. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are really thinking about this stuff or if you just have a tub with manatees who take "idea balls" and give them to you for what to do next in EVE.
"Oh look at us, we like to change the entire game mechanics every six months which only ends up creating more problems to fix later!"
Item: MWD scram Range: 7,500 meters Effect: Shuts you down and makes you cry |
Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.13 22:17:00 -
[4030]
Don't nerf the damn web and if you have to make something to shut down mwd's then make it a new damn item. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are really thinking about this stuff or if you just have a tub with manatees who take "idea balls" and give them to you for what to do next in EVE.
"Oh look at us, we like to change the entire game mechanics every six months which only ends up creating more problems to fix later!"
Item: MWD scram Range: 7,500 meters Effect: Shuts you down and makes you cry WE ARE LEGI0N. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. WE DO NOT FORGET. EXPECT US. |
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Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.08.14 02:01:00 -
[4031]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
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Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.08.14 02:01:00 -
[4032]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
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Glowy
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Posted - 2008.08.14 06:01:00 -
[4033]
Originally by: Haptic Roach Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs
I've read this claims a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.
So quit your whining about "countering blobs". The next gaggle of nano-punks I see gallantly assaulting a blob with their gistiis and snakes on the line will be the first.
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Glowy
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Posted - 2008.08.14 06:01:00 -
[4034]
Edited by: Glowy on 14/08/2008 06:11:04
Originally by: Haptic Roach Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs
I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.
So quit your whining about "countering blobs". The next gaggle of nano-punks I see gallantly assaulting a blob with their gistiis and snakes on the line will be the first.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 07:02:00 -
[4035]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 07:03:16
Originally by: Glowy
I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
Shut up tw*t you know nothing.
NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Glowy I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.
Outbreak suck and BE use ravens as there main ships although they do have some nano tackle and anti support obviously. Any good pvp outfit nano or not will already be using command ships for bonuses and most certainly already uses ewar, so maybe you should know wtf your talking about before you start trying to correct others.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 07:02:00 -
[4036]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 07:03:16
Originally by: Glowy
I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
Shut up tw*t you know nothing.
NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Glowy I suppose that somewhere near the very top of the PvP pile you'll find a small number of uber players that actually terrorize blobs with their nano ships. You'll find them in rarified outfits like Outbreak or Burn Eden, probably. You're not among these and if you were you would know that they'll just change tactics (EW+command ships most likely) and go right on pwning just as hard as they ever have.
Outbreak suck and BE use ravens as there main ships although they do have some nano tackle and anti support obviously. Any good pvp outfit nano or not will already be using command ships for bonuses and most certainly already uses ewar, so maybe you should know wtf your talking about before you start trying to correct others.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.08.14 07:55:00 -
[4037]
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed. First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.
Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and they (by a large margin) don't! The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.08.14 07:55:00 -
[4038]
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed. First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.
Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and they (by a large margin) don't! The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:27:00 -
[4039]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 08:30:56
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Kerfira
So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
No thats not what i said at all but like most f*cking as*holes you need to twist the meaning of something to fit your purposes.
Originally by: Kerfira You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed.
I have correctly identifed you as a clueless idiot who knows nothing about pvp or nano if you think its even near to invincible.
Originally by: Kerfira First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.
Lets correct you shall we:
First of all, you essentially can't get hit UNLESS YOU HAVE THE SHIP TACKLED.
So you think you should be able to pop untackled ships hmmm interesting?.
And secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than SOME people can lock you.
So you think that a gang of slow ratting BC's and BS should be a pwn all fit?.
Originally by: Kerfira Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and they (by a large margin) don't! The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....
NANO pilots or just good pvpers die less often because they are better pilots and team players than most muppets who think enemies should behave like rats. They die less because they do not jump into every engagement like lemmings while flying heavily insured BC's not caring if they lose it or not.
You obviously have no idea what its like to fly in a high spec, high skilled gang NANO or not and it shows in your manipulative, naive and r*tarded posting.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:27:00 -
[4040]
Trolling is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.08.14 10:13:00 -
[4041]
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/08/2008 10:15:13
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!
But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.
You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods. On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!
Truth hurts.... I know... It probably hurts even more that you'll soon loose that I-Win button you depend on to feel uber
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.08.14 10:13:00 -
[4042]
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/08/2008 10:21:43
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter. The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed. If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance. If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!
Originally by: Kerfira So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.
You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods. On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!
Truth hurts.... I know... It probably hurts even more that you'll soon loose that I-Win button you depend on to feel uber
PS: My current 0.0 k/d ratio is about 750/25 or so. I've flown nano, and flown against nano. You'd probably be able to recognise my corp ticker if I posted with my main, but we don't post. A nano-ship will be able to get out of any danger 9 out of 10 times when other ships would (and should) die. No ship should be able to commit to battle without significant risk, or in other words have a 'Get-out-of-jail-for-free' card, and it is exactly for that reason nano'ing is getting a truly well-deserved nerf!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 11:42:00 -
[4043]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 11:55:11
Quote: Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter.
The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed.
If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance.
If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Kerfira
Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!
Added in red the parts you ignored so the meaning was interpreted your manipulative way instead of the truthful way. And also added what it was in response to (in yellow) for relevance as well.
Now as you say your gangs may only be skilled enough to take on solo ratters but theirs plenty of corps and alliances skilled enough to take on the blob..claiming it does not happen just because you are not good enough to do it is rank arrogance, ignorance and stupidity.
Originally by: Kerfira
But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.
You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods. On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!
Burn eden use ravens and apart from tackle and a bit of anti support they are not a NANO pvp corp, but i guess your gonna say they exploit cloaks now huh?.
Originally by: Kerfira My current 0.0 k/d ratio is about 750/25 or so. I've flown nano, and flown against nano. You'd probably be able to recognise my corp ticker if I posted with my main, but we don't post.
Mine was around 6-700 Kills as well although 700-1k/d in the last MONTH or so and 90+% of that was not in a nano ship in fact i was flying caldari as that is what the gang was short of. You see a good pvp out fit asks its ppl for specific ships to balance out the gang it is not all speed and more speed like you clueless tards seem to think
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-ship will be able to get out of any danger 9 out of 10 times when other ships would (and should) die. No ship should be able to commit to battle without significant risk, or in other words have a 'Get-out-of-jail-for-free' card, and it is exactly for that reason nano'ing is getting a truly well-deserved nerf!
YES YES PVP should be just like ratting with everybody sitting opposite each other until the side with any ships left can claim to be the winner...... i know i hear this a lot from skilless re*ards who want there ratting fit to also own all.
OH and Most gangs if they decide to warp off from a engagement will suffer minimal losses nano is hardly alone in that category, you really are a paper tiger aint ya.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 11:42:00 -
[4044]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 12:11:18
Quote: Nano gangs spend 99% percent of their time roaming around ganking ratters. You know it and I know it because we both do it daily. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but attempting to rationalize your nano nerf complaints by claiming your heroic assaults on mighty blobs with your daring nano ships will be ended is too disgusting to tolerate.
Originally by: marakor NANO is a roaming gang style of pvp so it kills anything it comes accross including ratters or anybody else for that matter.
The problem is that EVE and the players in it supports the blob so as soon as these ratters start crying into there intel channels a blob if formed.
If it is a blob made up of skilless morons in stupidly fitted ships with sh*te team work the nano gang stands a chance.
If its a competent well formed and balanced gang well led and piloted its gonna proly win and pick up some kills.
Originally by: Kerfira
Painted the relevant parts where you said what I interpreted!
Added in red the parts you ignored so the meaning was interpreted your manipulative way instead of the truthful way. And also added what it was in response to (in yellow+blue) for relevance as well.
Now as you say your gangs may only be skilled enough to take on solo ratters (the bit in blue) but theirs plenty of corps and alliances skilled enough to take on the blob if its unskilled and badly made up and led, if not and its a well balanced well led and skilled gang we lose, (but at least there's a fight)..claiming it does not happen just because you are not good enough to do it is rank arrogance, ignorance and stupidity.
Originally by: Kerfira
But, as most nano-pilots, when you found your arguments countered, you resorted to insults, not arguments.
You're also still so very wrong on continuing to claim nano-pilots are the elite of the elite. They've simply been abusing broken game mechanics for so long they've deluded themselves into believing they're PvP gods. On average, they're no better than other pilots, so on average they should die as often as other pilots of same experience. They don't!
Burn eden use ravens and apart from tackle and a bit of anti support they are not a NANO pvp corp, but i guess your gonna say they exploit cloaks now huh?.
Originally by: Kerfira My current 0.0 k/d ratio is about 750/25 or so. I've flown nano, and flown against nano. You'd probably be able to recognise my corp ticker if I posted with my main, but we don't post.
Mine was around 6-700 Kills as well although 700-1k/d in the last MONTH or so and 90+% of that was not in a nano ship in fact i was flying caldari as that is what the gang was short of. You see a good pvp out fit asks its ppl for specific ships to balance out the gang it is not all speed and more speed like you clueless tards seem to think
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-ship will be able to get out of any danger 9 out of 10 times when other ships would (and should) die. No ship should be able to commit to battle without significant risk, or in other words have a 'Get-out-of-jail-for-free' card, and it is exactly for that reason nano'ing is getting a truly well-deserved nerf!
YES YES PVP should be just like ratting with everybody sitting opposite each other until the side with any ships left can claim to be the winner...... i know i hear this a lot from skilless re*ards who want there ratting fit to also own all.
OH and Most gangs if they decide to warp off from a engagement will suffer minimal losses nano is hardly alone in that category, you really are a paper tiger aint ya.
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Tequila Fish
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Posted - 2008.08.14 12:13:00 -
[4045]
Originally by: marakor
MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.
While this remark was intended to refute the need for a nanonerf it actually demonstrates you should have nothing to worry about. Surely the above statement will be equally true post nerf, that we will all still have the same access to training, skill books, ships and equipment. The question then marakor is whether you will adapt and be a player that succeeds post nerf or become one of those you berate for blaming something other than themselves (i.e. a nerf).
It seems clear that you and many others are trying to protect a broken system that has served you well. Whilst the system could in theory serve everyone equally well once they have the requisite skills and large sums of cash to nanofit it makes the game boring, as according to your logic everyone would one day fly nano or one of the few viable support roles which do not require nanofitting.
Basically stop whining because you are losing your advantage, the problem is not that a well nanofitted t2 ship is better than say a tech 1 normally fitted ship, but that it can be almost unstoppable except by other nanofits.
You and some others will lose out a little bit but the gain overall for everyone is massive. I just hope the changes actually implemented go far enough.
I fully expect and hope for an angry whinging reply. Just remember post nerf we will all as you state have access to the same stuff, so are you gonna be a crap player who looks for something to blame other than themselves or suck it up
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Tequila Fish
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Posted - 2008.08.14 12:13:00 -
[4046]
Originally by: marakor
MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.
While this remark was intended to refute the need for a nanonerf it actually demonstrates you should have nothing to worry about. Surely the above statement will be equally true post nerf, that we will all still have the same access to training, skill books, ships and equipment. The question then marakor is whether you will adapt and be a player that succeeds post nerf or become one of those you berate for blaming something other than themselves (i.e. a nerf).
It seems clear that you and many others are trying to protect a broken system that has served you well. Whilst the system could in theory serve everyone equally well once they have the requisite skills and large sums of cash to nanofit it makes the game boring, as according to your logic everyone would one day fly nano or one of the few viable support roles which do not require nanofitting.
Basically stop whining because you are losing your advantage, the problem is not that a well nanofitted t2 ship is better than say a tech 1 normally fitted ship, but that it can be almost unstoppable except by other nanofits.
You and some others will lose out a little bit but the gain overall for everyone is massive. I just hope the changes actually implemented go far enough.
I fully expect and hope for an angry whinging reply. Just remember post nerf we will all as you state have access to the same stuff, so are you gonna be a crap player who looks for something to blame other than themselves or suck it up
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 12:34:00 -
[4047]
Originally by: Tequila Fish
Originally by: marakor
MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.
Another attempt to justify lowering that bar by playing word games instead of eve.
Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.
Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.
Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance.
The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fight like these, where even if you lose it and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight THATS why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO gang because if they had they would love it.
Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on it (im sure they will phrase it better though).
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 12:34:00 -
[4048]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 13:00:00
Originally by: Tequila Fish
Originally by: marakor
MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHY CRAP PLAYERS ALWAYS LOOK FOR SUMMAT TO BLAME OTHER THAN THEMSELVES, I MEAN WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME STUFF THE SAME TRAINING TIME THE SAME SKILL BOOKS AND SHIPS AND EQUIPMENT AND WE HAVE HAD ACCESS FOR YEARS. AND YET PPL LIKE YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL WHILE OTHERS SUCCEED, AND WHILE THATS INEVITABLE WHY BLAME IT ON SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO USE AND ALSO HAS PLENTY TO COUNTER IT, INSTEAD OF YOURSELVES?.
Another attempt to justify lowering that bar by playing word games instead of eve.
Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.
Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.
Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships or for reps on themselves, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance for position.
The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fights like these, where even if you lose the battle and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight, THAT is why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO/recon gang because if they had they would love it.
Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships, a BC what 2 volleys a BS 3 unless its extended or plated to hell the what 5 volleys?. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on them (im sure they will phrase it better though).
This nerf is supported by the lazy and ignorant and they have no idea what they are missing and never will if it goes through.
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Tequila Fish
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Posted - 2008.08.14 13:44:00 -
[4049]
My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.
However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.
I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.
Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.
More real options = more variety = more fun and less people feeling that the current balance leaves them limited options and penalises them for making other choices. |
Tequila Fish
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Posted - 2008.08.14 13:44:00 -
[4050]
My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.
However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.
I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.
Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.
More real options = more variety = more fun and less people feeling that the current balance leaves them limited options and penalises them for making other choices. |
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 14:17:00 -
[4051]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 14:19:31
Originally by: Tequila Fish My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.
Im not worried im ****ed that a great form of pvp is being removed instead of having things added to the game to help the plenty of things already in the game to counter it.
Originally by: Tequila Fish However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.
Its dead, get on the test server and try it bud its totally dead if this nerf goes through even ceptors are easy to kill now.
Originally by: Tequila Fish I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.
The fitting you may be surprised to hear needs to be varied as do the ship types although HACS and recons are normally prevalent although other ships are included in a lot of gangs. Against a badly led gang of ratting ships a good roaming gang will own, but against a RR BS gang or a fully mixed well led gang the nano/roaming gang will proly lose.
Ive flown in nano gangs, sniper gangs, RR gangs, fully mixed gangs plus all points inbetween and i can tell you that the best setup to beat a nano gang is not another nano gang its a fully mixed gang working well together.
Originally by: Tequila Fish Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.
Pro pvpers spend a lot on their ships and will never nor want to get into a slug fest against another gang that involves sitting opposite another gang and killing until one side or another runs out of ships.
If your hoping to see a mixed fleet of idiots heading into your space i can tell you that you will see no more than you do now as i know for a fact that myself, those that i fly with and those in other alliances like us have no intention of doing so..ever. If we have to we will find another way to engage that involves the use of skill instead of numbers and slug fest pvp and im sure the same muppets will cry exploit or nerf nerf instead of improving their skills and team work to counter us.
But as i say if this goes through its the end of something very special that a lot of ppl have missed out on and do not come close to understanding or they would be as ****ed as me and most of the ppl posting about it.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.14 14:17:00 -
[4052]
Edited by: marakor on 14/08/2008 14:47:59
Originally by: Tequila Fish My main point was that the nerf is going through and once it is through good players will adapt and do well and players who feel hard done by will whine about something else be it the nano nerf, cloaking, or something else. In this I think we agree, but as you consider yourself a good player why should you worry? The rules of the game will be different but the playing field will still be level. There, I've said it myself so don't accuse me of playing word games.
Im not worried im ****ed that a great form of pvp is being removed instead of having things added to the game to help the plenty of things already in the game to counter it.
Originally by: Tequila Fish However, I can't agree that speed tanking will be completely dead or that the changes will lead to less fun in pvp. They are nerfing ludicrous speed, not speed in its entirety and what evolves in pvp will be fun too.
Its dead, get on the test server and try it bud its totally dead if this nerf goes through even ceptors are pretty easy to kill now.
Originally by: Tequila Fish I'm glad you've had fun in your nano/recon gang engagements and yes it does sound fun, can't argue with that. However, the experience you describe sounds rather formulaic in the outfitting of ships and gangs (although not in the fight itself). I.e. you get a good fight when your nano/recon gang comes up against another similar one. Against anything else of a similar size but different makeup of ships I'm guessing you smite your opponents with few or any losses. Therefore combat has been becoming formulaic.
The fitting you may be surprised to hear needs to be varied as do the ship types, HACS and recons are normally prevalent (why fly t1 when you can fly t2 until the nerf that is) although other ships are included in a lot of our gangs. Against a badly led gang of ratting ships a good roaming gang will own, but against a RR BS gang or a fully mixed well led gang the nano/roaming gang will proly lose.
Ive flown in nano gangs, sniper gangs, RR gangs, fully mixed gangs plus all points inbetween and i can tell you that the best setup to beat a nano gang is not another nano gang its a fully mixed gang working well together.
Originally by: Tequila Fish Post nerf I'm hoping that if you come up against a similar size gang with a different makeup of ships then yes if you are better organized, skilled and tactically balanced then you will win but maybe they will have a chance to take out a ship or two. Or if they have a different setup and are differently tanked but equally adept maybe then you'll have a good fight on your hands, just not the fight you were used to pre nerf.
Pro pvpers spend a lot on their ships and will never nor want to get into a slug fest against another gang that involves sitting opposite another gang and killing until one side or another runs out of ships.
If your hoping to see a mixed fleet of idiots heading into your space i can tell you that you will see no more than you do now as i know for a fact that myself, those that i fly with and those in other alliances like us have no intention of doing so..ever. If we have to we will find another way to engage that involves the use of skill instead of numbers and slug fest pvp and im sure the same muppets will cry exploit or nerf nerf instead of improving their skills and team work to counter us.
But as i say if this goes through its the end of something very special that a lot of ppl have missed out on and do not come close to understanding or they would be as ****ed as me and most of the ppl posting about it.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:58:00 -
[4053]
Originally by: marakor
Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.
Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.
Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships or for reps on themselves, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance for position.
The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fights like these, where even if you lose the battle and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight, THAT is why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO/recon gang because if they had they would love it.
Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships, a BC what 2 volleys a BS 3 unless its extended or plated to hell the what 5 volleys?. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on them (im sure they will phrase it better though).
This nerf is supported by the lazy and ignorant and they have no idea what they are missing and never will if it goes through.
100% correct. The problem is that a given share of the player community don't play for fun, but for all out winning. Those are mainly the kind of players that will never understand how you manage to loose a 1 bil ship against a few boats totaling less than 100 mil, and you still come out happy, because you had FUN. And why whas it FUN ? Because those inferior ships where led by BRAINS who managed to counter a theoretical superior opponent.
Obviously, CCP makes more money by leveling the game requirements to the average IQ of the generic player. We can be confident that as a money making venture (nothing wrong with that), they have certainly enough studies defining the player profile which will bring optimal benefits.
After all these years, IIRC my mains are quietly reaching a combined 160 mil sp, almost all in PvP. So like many other players, I will still kick ass if I want, no matter if using rr BS, cap drops or whatever. If it will still be funny when nanowarfare as an alternative will be dead is another matter...
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:58:00 -
[4054]
Originally by: marakor
Ive been playing for a long time pal and i can tell you that with every nerf its the pvpers that adapt and the same whiners who look for excuses and things to blame instead of them selves.
Removing nano is removing a hugely entertaining and skilled form of pvp from the game its a style that forces you to atually tackle a ship to kill it and within that need a great deal of tactical and individual piloting skill evolves.
Your tacklers need to web and point the target ship, your jammers need to deal with their webbers defending the target, your dps ships need to be in range but not get tackled themselves. Both sides maneuvering, pilots calling for jams on certain ships or for reps on themselves, target callers searching for valuable targets to be removed from the field and BOTH sides doing this at the same time in a huge dance for position.
The ppl who want rid on nano i know can NEVER have experienced such entertaining fights like these, where even if you lose the battle and get several ships popped while only killing one or two you go away thinking "what a ****ing awesome fight, THAT is why i play EVE". And THAT is why i know that all the ppl who are screaming for this nerf have never flown in a proper and skilled NANO/recon gang because if they had they would love it.
Without nano what will we have?, no need to really tackle as a good alpha strike off 10-20 ships will insta pop most cruiser sized ships, a BC what 2 volleys a BS 3 unless its extended or plated to hell the what 5 volleys?. Sniping with cloaks may increase until the nerfit blobbers cry that cloaking is broken and that they want to scan down cloakers so they can drop a blob on them (im sure they will phrase it better though).
This nerf is supported by the lazy and ignorant and they have no idea what they are missing and never will if it goes through.
100% correct. The problem is that a given share of the player community don't play for fun, but for all out winning. Those are mainly the kind of players that will never understand how you manage to loose a 1 bil ship against a few boats totaling less than 100 mil, and you still come out happy, because you had FUN. And why whas it FUN ? Because those inferior ships where led by BRAINS who managed to counter a theoretical superior opponent.
Obviously, CCP makes more money by leveling the game requirements to the average IQ of the generic player. We can be confident that as a money making venture (nothing wrong with that), they have certainly enough studies defining the player profile which will bring optimal benefits.
After all these years, IIRC my mains are quietly reaching a combined 160 mil sp, almost all in PvP. So like many other players, I will still kick ass if I want, no matter if using rr BS, cap drops or whatever. If it will still be funny when nanowarfare as an alternative will be dead is another matter...
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Haptic Roach
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Posted - 2008.08.15 01:07:00 -
[4055]
Originally by: Glowy Edited by: Glowy on 14/08/2008 06:11:04
Originally by: Haptic Roach Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs
I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
You are showing your inexperience here. I have personally been larger gangs taken on by smaller well coordinated nano gangs - and we lost big time but was inspired by the pure skill it took to do that. I have never been in one of those nano gangs because i have never been in such a specialized corp.
And no not by the outfits you mentioned - again, just shows you don't know what you are talking about.
You don't need a nano gang to take out ratters - just a ceptor and a cruiser or BC.
Bottom line - this change will take away some of the interesting variation in eve - that is bad for everyone.
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Haptic Roach
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Posted - 2008.08.15 01:07:00 -
[4056]
Originally by: Glowy Edited by: Glowy on 14/08/2008 06:11:04
Originally by: Haptic Roach Buzzing around in a small well coordinated team and taking on larger gangs
I've read this claim a hundred times now. "Nano counters blobs", etc. I call bull***.
You are showing your inexperience here. I have personally been larger gangs taken on by smaller well coordinated nano gangs - and we lost big time but was inspired by the pure skill it took to do that. I have never been in one of those nano gangs because i have never been in such a specialized corp.
And no not by the outfits you mentioned - again, just shows you don't know what you are talking about.
You don't need a nano gang to take out ratters - just a ceptor and a cruiser or BC.
Bottom line - this change will take away some of the interesting variation in eve - that is bad for everyone.
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Hab0k
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Posted - 2008.08.15 04:29:00 -
[4057]
Quote: So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed. First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.
Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and t hey (by a large margin) don't! The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....
Hehe, We are people who poor 25m sp into speed. so thats why we go so fast... i didnt say that nanos need to be nerfed i said that all nanos do is use a diff tactic. if noobs cant counter thats there fault... atm there are so many ways to kill a nano fleet... and in no way nanos are overpowered... u lock a ship with an mwd on you lock faster! its called scan rez and mwds amp it about 600% if you have skills... so dont tell me you cant lock them before they excape... and even if they coast out they still do stop. so dont bash me unless you understand every single peice of the story
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Hab0k
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Posted - 2008.08.15 04:29:00 -
[4058]
Quote: So basically you're saying that flying nano means that you can kill everything you encounter unless it is a well-trained blob (meaning a much larger group than you), and even then all they'll get may be a 'few' kills.
Thanks for providing such a strong argument for WHY nano's need a big bash with the nerfbat
You've correctly identified the main reason nano is due a nerf, namely the near-invincibility you get when fitting for high speed. First of all, you essentially can't get hit, and secondly, you can get out of lock/web/scramble range faster than people can lock you.
Nano-ships should die approximately as often as other ships..... and t hey (by a large margin) don't! The nano pilots claim this is because they're the best of the best PvP gods.... but they're not! They've simply become too used to abusing a broken game mechanic, and now their ego can't cope with loosing their imagined status as elite pilots....
Hehe, We are people who poor 25m sp into speed. so thats why we go so fast... i didnt say that nanos need to be nerfed i said that all nanos do is use a diff tactic. if noobs cant counter thats there fault... atm there are so many ways to kill a nano fleet... and in no way nanos are overpowered... u lock a ship with an mwd on you lock faster! its called scan rez and mwds amp it about 600% if you have skills... so dont tell me you cant lock them before they excape... and even if they coast out they still do stop. so dont bash me unless you understand every single peice of the story
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Surrah
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:13:00 -
[4059]
I haven't read through the over 100 pages of comments on this topic. I just wanted to air a thought. As far as webbers go, why not make them like a tractor beam type thing (I know we already have tractor beams but you can't use them on anything but cans and wrecks, and then only the ones you have rights to), it has an attractive, magnetic force and uses the masses, thrusts and relative velocities of the two ships involved to determine the outcome.
For instance, if you were in a frigate and webbing a frigate, the two frigates (relatively same mass and sitting still) would be drawn together. Where if the target was running from the webber, the target would be slowed and the webbing ship would be accelerated, and if they were already moving toward each other you would get a slingshot effect increasing the speed of both.
This also eliminates the risk-less use of a webber. Currently using a web slows the other guy and using multiples will effectively stop him. If it gets changed like I'm suggesting, using a webber is going to effect you, potentially more than your target. It also gives the targeted person the opportunity to use their head to use the effect in a manner that will benefit them, rather than just being toasted. If you wanted to hold a frigate still and make it immobile, you would need 2, 3 or maybe 4 other frigates pulling in opposed dirctions to out mass it enough to keep it from moving. Because using 2 webbers on the same target would effectively just double the strength of the attraction making it harder to pull away, and or break away.
If, say you had a frigate webbing a BS, given the mass difference the frigate is going to get towed along with the BS. What this will do is allow the web to be effective for the frigate, but not so much for the frigate's gang. It doesn't make a whole lot of since that a tiny frigate can web a BS anyhow. I hate to make references to the real, but I'm going to in this case. The way that work in my head, is attach a bungee cord between an 80,000lb tractor trailer and a Mini Cooper. That little Mini is going for a ride unless it stretches the bungee to the breaking point. Thats how webbers should work in my head.
Not only does it make a little bit of since, but it will introduce a lot of tactical options. Say you want to move a cruiser up from the rear guard really quickly, use 2 or 3 of your front line BS's to web that cruiser and sling shot it to the front. With a little bit of timing and practice you could get your webbers off just at is makes the pass at the apex of its velocity.
As an interceptor, you could use a webber not to slow your opponent, but to increase your radial velocity. Because you effectively have a string holding you closer to another ship you should be able to orbit faster at any given distance because you are being helped in the turn by the web.
Beyond all the fun that would generate with ship to ship stuff, writing the programming would set the groundwork for really cool environmental situations. Gravity wells or black holes anyone? Maybe you are chasing someone and they get a little too close to a black hole (you really don't want to go into one of those) then to your surprise they throw on a web and drag you along for the ride! Or Maybe you are out in your BS and you get stuck in a gravity well. You have to call in your buddies to throw a web on you and help pull you out, the old tow rope for the win!
This will also give blaster boats a viable alternative to MWD's, as they can pull their target in rather than running to it.
You could go another step and give it scripts, one for attract, and one for repel. Then you can counter a web with a web, not just MWD or AB.
This is probably a ******ed idea that would require a crap ton of programming, but it would be neat to me, and add depth to the game. All of our ships and objects in the game already have all of these attributes and statistics(mass, thrust, volume, etc.), it seems such a waste to not use them.
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Surrah
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:13:00 -
[4060]
I haven't read through the over 100 pages of comments on this topic. I just wanted to air a thought. As far as webbers go, why not make them like a tractor beam type thing (I know we already have tractor beams but you can't use them on anything but cans and wrecks, and then only the ones you have rights to), it has an attractive, magnetic force and uses the masses, thrusts and relative velocities of the two ships involved to determine the outcome.
For instance, if you were in a frigate and webbing a frigate, the two frigates (relatively same mass and sitting still) would be drawn together. Where if the target was running from the webber, the target would be slowed and the webbing ship would be accelerated, and if they were already moving toward each other you would get a slingshot effect increasing the speed of both.
This also eliminates the risk-less use of a webber. Currently using a web slows the other guy and using multiples will effectively stop him. If it gets changed like I'm suggesting, using a webber is going to effect you, potentially more than your target. It also gives the targeted person the opportunity to use their head to use the effect in a manner that will benefit them, rather than just being toasted. If you wanted to hold a frigate still and make it immobile, you would need 2, 3 or maybe 4 other frigates pulling in opposed dirctions to out mass it enough to keep it from moving. Because using 2 webbers on the same target would effectively just double the strength of the attraction making it harder to pull away, and or break away.
If, say you had a frigate webbing a BS, given the mass difference the frigate is going to get towed along with the BS. What this will do is allow the web to be effective for the frigate, but not so much for the frigate's gang. It doesn't make a whole lot of since that a tiny frigate can web a BS anyhow. I hate to make references to the real, but I'm going to in this case. The way that work in my head, is attach a bungee cord between an 80,000lb tractor trailer and a Mini Cooper. That little Mini is going for a ride unless it stretches the bungee to the breaking point. Thats how webbers should work in my head.
Not only does it make a little bit of since, but it will introduce a lot of tactical options. Say you want to move a cruiser up from the rear guard really quickly, use 2 or 3 of your front line BS's to web that cruiser and sling shot it to the front. With a little bit of timing and practice you could get your webbers off just at is makes the pass at the apex of its velocity.
As an interceptor, you could use a webber not to slow your opponent, but to increase your radial velocity. Because you effectively have a string holding you closer to another ship you should be able to orbit faster at any given distance because you are being helped in the turn by the web.
Beyond all the fun that would generate with ship to ship stuff, writing the programming would set the groundwork for really cool environmental situations. Gravity wells or black holes anyone? Maybe you are chasing someone and they get a little too close to a black hole (you really don't want to go into one of those) then to your surprise they throw on a web and drag you along for the ride! Or Maybe you are out in your BS and you get stuck in a gravity well. You have to call in your buddies to throw a web on you and help pull you out, the old tow rope for the win!
This will also give blaster boats a viable alternative to MWD's, as they can pull their target in rather than running to it.
You could go another step and give it scripts, one for attract, and one for repel. Then you can counter a web with a web, not just MWD or AB.
This is probably a ******ed idea that would require a crap ton of programming, but it would be neat to me, and add depth to the game. All of our ships and objects in the game already have all of these attributes and statistics(mass, thrust, volume, etc.), it seems such a waste to not use them.
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Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.17 23:08:00 -
[4061]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 17/08/2008 23:10:07 If nano ships are useless after the nerf then a good portion of shield tankers will be gone as well, since most nano ships are either untanked or passive shield tanked. We are going to see a revival of armor tankers dominating eve with command ships and battleships dominating once more; they can tank the most and deal the most damage. HAC popularity should drop off drastically as most HACs cannot compete with Command Ships without superior maneuvorability, which will be signifcantly reduced post nerf.
It will be interesting to see where the vagabond stands after the nerf. Personally i'm going to stock up on Drakes since they are l337.
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
Second that FTW |
Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.17 23:08:00 -
[4062]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 17/08/2008 23:10:07 If nano ships are useless after the nerf then a good portion of shield tankers will be gone as well, since most nano ships are either untanked or passive shield tanked. We are going to see a revival of armor tankers dominating eve with command ships and battleships dominating once more; they can tank the most and deal the most damage. HAC popularity should drop off drastically as most HACs cannot compete with Command Ships without superior maneuvorability, which will be signifcantly reduced post nerf.
It will be interesting to see where the vagabond stands after the nerf. Personally i'm going to stock up on Drakes since they are l337.
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
Second that FTW -----
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:01:00 -
[4063]
Edited by: bundy bear on 19/08/2008 00:01:55
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
By using a real life comparison to describe balance?
Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.
we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.
Edit: spelling |
bundy bear
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 00:01:00 -
[4064]
Edited by: bundy bear on 19/08/2008 00:01:55
Originally by: Joey Meow
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: CCP Wrangler For those of you who consider yourself to be Speedy Gonzales and enjoy travelling in Ludicrous speed this blog may come as a bit of a shock. There are ways to travel way too fast in EVE and Nozh has written a blog detailing why that is bad and what we'll do about it, read it all, and check the graphs, in Speed Rebalanced.
LOL at "Balance".
In Scandinavian countries you're mostly safe everywhere, while in Panama you can get shot for a mere 50.- USD
Every time I go in a "Nikki Beach", I see peeps spending over 5K USD in a single night just for fun. Step outside and you will cross people happy they can still pay their rent.
A politician diverting over 100 million Ç gets less jail than the looser caught robbing a store.
Every hospital gives an exquisite glimpse into what mother nature understands as "balance" through congenital or hereditary-related conditions.
Every human exhibit an unique pattern of mental, physiological and morphological advantages & disadvantages.
So yes, BALANCE is all around us... Give me a break. Balance applied by humans invariably correspond to imposing the lowest common factor, which tantamount to reward mediocrity.
And the same peeps who laud "balance" later on cheer their idols, be it athletes, stars or politicians, who all reached their position due to specific & often unique characteristics. Very coherent
Balance my ass. The only objective balance is to give everybody the choice to use whatever tactic & gear at the place & time of their sovereign choice. Then natural selection does the rest.
You win this fraggin thread....
By using a real life comparison to describe balance?
Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.
we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.
Edit: spelling
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Le Cardinal
ECP Rogues
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:02:00 -
[4065]
My biggest worry is this: Have they tweaked the dread gurista webber? It sucks and it hurts my feelings.
On the topic itself. I mainly fly 2 races. Minnie and caldari. Good thing i started tweaking my caldari skills a couple of months ago. This change will result in what always happen. The good and skilled players adapt and the new players will still die horrible and embarrassing deaths. Rince and repeat.
Sad thing with the guerilla warfare part. Anyone done any proper tests on sisi?
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Le Cardinal
ECP Rogues
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:02:00 -
[4066]
My biggest worry is this: Have they tweaked the dread gurista webber? It sucks and it hurts my feelings.
On the topic itself. I mainly fly 2 races. Minnie and caldari. Good thing i started tweaking my caldari skills a couple of months ago. This change will result in what always happen. The good and skilled players adapt and the new players will still die horrible and embarrassing deaths. Rince and repeat.
Sad thing with the guerilla warfare part. Anyone done any proper tests on sisi?
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:22:00 -
[4067]
as i read this thread again, i cant help but feel tired about the way things go in eve.
i have been playing over 2 years now, and god know how many hours sat here watching the pixcels move.
it makes me sad to see time investment wiped out, i guess is the bottom line here. i wonder if CCP care about us older players that have all the invested effort and trainins and choices we made. i cant get 12 months of training back just coz nanos are useless now can i.
im sick of the nerf bat, im sure there is a better way perhaps more effort is needed from ccp to do this but after all on a úmillion+ a month turnover im sure they have the resourses.
personally i vote for webbing scripts 50% long range and 90% short or there abouts. and bring polycarbs into line with nanos.
and leave it at that.
i already have high skilled players who love the hac style of play, not bothering to login coz of this coming up.
think about it. |
Wyliee
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:22:00 -
[4068]
as i read this thread again, i cant help but feel tired about the way things go in eve.
i have been playing over 2 years now, and god know how many hours sat here watching the pixcels move.
it makes me sad to see time investment wiped out, i guess is the bottom line here. i wonder if CCP care about us older players that have all the invested effort and trainins and choices we made. i cant get 12 months of training back just coz nanos are useless now can i.
im sick of the nerf bat, im sure there is a better way perhaps more effort is needed from ccp to do this but after all on a úmillion+ a month turnover im sure they have the resourses.
personally i vote for webbing scripts 50% long range and 90% short or there abouts. and bring polycarbs into line with nanos.
and leave it at that.
i already have high skilled players who love the hac style of play, not bothering to login coz of this coming up.
think about it.
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Dan Grensson
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:35:00 -
[4069]
Edited by: Dan Grensson on 19/08/2008 21:39:27 "overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"
From what I've seen and heard, this patch will drastically reduce the effectivness of nano-fitted ships, which represent the primary alternative to heavy ship warfare as I call it. I'm not a 0.0 resident, but it seems to me that this will result in few, if any, alternative to simply fielding a more powerful force than your opponent.
Perhaps the suggestion of more inventive gameplay being boosted is valid, for a period, until the viable tactics under the new mechanics become well established, but I would say that overall variety has been reduced, that this moves EVE closer to all-out blob warfare.
And please, your graphs showing how the MWD speeds arn't significantly changed are patronising at best. You cant compare the base MWD speed of ships before and after to show the balance changes when its the nano/overdrive/etc changes which are the big change.
Balance polycarbs, maybe balance the weight of some ships to change the effectivness of MWDs on them, or balance the whole range of speed modules, within reason, but dont go and completely rewrite the mechanics of a major PvP tactic. It's not like the old days of 10km/s Phoons all over the place. |
Dan Grensson
Taurus Inc
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 21:35:00 -
[4070]
Edited by: Dan Grensson on 19/08/2008 21:39:27 "overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"
From what I've seen and heard, this patch will drastically reduce the effectivness of nano-fitted ships, which represent the primary alternative to heavy ship warfare as I call it. I'm not a 0.0 resident, but it seems to me that this will result in few, if any, alternative to simply fielding a more powerful force than your opponent.
Perhaps the suggestion of more inventive gameplay being boosted is valid, for a period, until the viable tactics under the new mechanics become well established, but I would say that overall variety has been reduced, that this moves EVE closer to all-out blob warfare.
And please, your graphs showing how the MWD speeds arn't significantly changed are patronising at best. You cant compare the base MWD speed of ships before and after to show the balance changes when its the nano/overdrive/etc changes which are the big change.
Balance polycarbs, maybe balance the weight of some ships to change the effectivness of MWDs on them, or balance the whole range of speed modules, within reason, but dont go and completely rewrite the mechanics of a major PvP tactic. It's not like the old days of 10km/s Phoons all over the place.
Taurus Inc is recruiting! |
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:03:00 -
[4071]
Originally by: Dan Grensson
"overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"
Wrong.
before the nerf a nano gang was used for roaming because it was so versatile and had a "chance" to be effective. It consisted of:
HAC's, recons, command ships, logistics and even the occasional BS.
Obviously the defender has the advantage of being able to swap out into any ship he has in his hangar depending on what is needed so a anti nano gang would consist of:
Ceptors/friggies(fast tacklers) Cruisers/battlecruisers(dps) Hacs(nano fitted to help tackle or kill) Recons(jamming/webbing/nueting) Command ships(bonuses+dps) Logistics (keeping tacklers and others alive) Nuet fitted BS (dps+cap killer/tackle)
Now after the NANO nerf do you really think your gonna need all those ships and the team work to fight a slow ass roaming gang?:
Ceptors/friggies (why bother when a bubble or two can stop warp offs and the gang is to slow to get out of it before popping).
Hacs(your kidding right a 100mil waste of space)
Recons(pointless as anything can now be easily hit and so alpha strike'd to death).
Command ships(no need as BC are a cheaper option).
Logistics (maybe but if your using heavily insured BC they are hardly much of a loss).
Nuet fitted BS (why bother with a nuet when the alpha off a single dps fitted bs can almost insta most cruisers, in fact why bother flying BS at all as the insured BC is a much better option).
So what are we left with?...oh yes BC, and maybe hics, dics and logistics if you can be bothered to bring them. |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 14:03:00 -
[4072]
Edited by: marakor on 20/08/2008 21:15:30
Originally by: Dan Grensson
"overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"
Wrong.
before the nerf a nano gang was used for roaming because it was so versatile and had a "chance" to be effective. It consisted of:
HAC's, recons, command ships, logistics, hics, dics, ceptors (even t1 variations of there ships could be used).
Obviously the defender has the advantage of being able to swap out into any ship he has in his hangar depending on what is needed so a anti nano gang would consist of:
Ceptors/friggies (fast tacklers) Cruisers/battlecruisers (dps) Hacs (nano fitted to help tackle or kill) Recons (jamming/webbing/nueting) Command ships (bonuses+dps) Logistics (keeping tacklers and others alive) Nuet fitted BS (dps+cap killer/tackle)
Now after the NANO nerf do you really think your gonna need all those ships and the team work to fight a slow ass roaming gang?:
Ceptors/friggies (why bother when a bubble or two can stop warp offs and the gang is to slow to get out of it before popping).
Hacs(your kidding right a 100mil waste of space)
Recons(pointless as anything can now be easily hit and so alpha strike'd to death).
Command ships(no need as BC are a cheaper option).
Logistics (maybe but if your using heavily insured BC they are hardly much of a loss).
Nuet fitted BS (why bother with a nuet when the alpha off a single dps fitted bs can almost insta most cruisers, in fact why bother flying BS at all as the insured BC is a much better option).
So what are we left with?...oh yes BC, and maybe hics, dics and logistics if you can be bothered to bring them.
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Sylvmar
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:20:00 -
[4073]
I've not read the 139 pages of replies so soz if this have been said before.
It seem to me that there are too many changes proposed with too many variables, do the devs really believe they can predict the outcomes?
Nano seems to be an exciting development of gameplay (even if it was not under the control of the devs). Instead of nerfing it out of the game, why not add aspects that help counter it?
Here's where I get flamed: One example might be a rig destabilizing module. Assault frigates could have a bonus for this module.
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Sylvmar
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:20:00 -
[4074]
I've not read the 139 pages of replies so soz if this have been said before.
It seem to me that there are too many changes proposed with too many variables, do the devs really believe they can predict the outcomes?
Nano seems to be an exciting development of gameplay (even if it was not under the control of the devs). Instead of nerfing it out of the game, why not add aspects that help counter it?
Here's where I get flamed: One example might be a rig destabilizing module. Assault frigates could have a bonus for this module.
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.21 08:36:00 -
[4075]
Edited by: Semkhet on 21/08/2008 08:36:52
Originally by: bundy bear
By using a real life comparison to describe balance?
Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.
we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.
Edit: spelling
Don't get me started with this kind of crap. Everything relates to RL like it or not. You're a RL living being, not some disney toon. Same for the money you pay your subscription with. And it's this RL element which perpetuates RL CCP's existence. Everything is correlated.
It's not because we are talking about a game that player's cognitive responses to interactions are virtual. Would you have the smallest clue about cognitive mechanisms, you would know that it is almost impossible to distinguish a neuronal process triggered within a virtual environment from a process triggered within a real environment if the immersion reaches an appropriate level. Why ? Because most humans REACT rather than THINKING before ACTING. It is one of the reasons why Spec Ops soldiers are 35 years old or more... It takes years of training to learn how to prioritize your mind over instinctive reactions, specially when you have a very limited time to both take a decision and then implement it.
Anyhow, each aspect of EvE which tends to slow down the pace of the game renders the whole premise more unattractive. Why should I log on a game which trumpets the amount of simultaneously logged in players as feature if I end fighting peeps who show less originality than any NPC of a third-class shooter of the 90's due to artificially imposed limitations ?
As I said, all they had to do was implementing a 200% falloff on webs, and bring missiles up to speed. But no, let's turn EvE into a contest of snails and turtles. For Pete's sake, Jules Verne was way more SciFi than all this BS... |
Semkhet
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 08:36:00 -
[4076]
Edited by: Semkhet on 21/08/2008 08:36:52
Originally by: bundy bear
By using a real life comparison to describe balance?
Balance in eve is whatever the GM's want it to be. If they have decided that a tactic is too overpowered they will nerf it back in line. Its up to all the people that used this tactic to adapt.
we realy dont need any overdone real life comparison to describe that.
Edit: spelling
Don't get me started with this kind of crap. Everything relates to RL like it or not. You're a RL living being, not some disney toon. Same for the money you pay your subscription with. And it's this RL element which perpetuates RL CCP's existence. Everything is correlated.
It's not because we are talking about a game that player's cognitive responses to interactions are virtual. Would you have the smallest clue about cognitive mechanisms, you would know that it is almost impossible to distinguish a neuronal process triggered within a virtual environment from a process triggered within a real environment if the immersion reaches an appropriate level. Why ? Because most humans REACT rather than THINKING before ACTING. It is one of the reasons why Spec Ops soldiers are 35 years old or more... It takes years of training to learn how to prioritize your mind over instinctive reactions, specially when you have a very limited time to both take a decision and then implement it.
Anyhow, each aspect of EvE which tends to slow down the pace of the game renders the whole premise more unattractive. Why should I log on a game which trumpets the amount of simultaneously logged in players as feature if I end fighting peeps who show less originality than any NPC of a third-class shooter of the 90's due to artificially imposed limitations ?
As I said, all they had to do was implementing a 200% falloff on webs, and bring missiles up to speed. But no, let's turn EvE into a contest of snails and turtles. For Pete's sake, Jules Verne was way more SciFi than all this BS...
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CoLe Blackblood
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:35:00 -
[4077]
What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.
Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.
Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.
This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.
My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?
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CoLe Blackblood
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:35:00 -
[4078]
What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.
Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.
Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.
This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.
My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?
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Zuko Droner
Dominion of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 13:19:00 -
[4079]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.
Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.
Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.
This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.
My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?
The one that is most effective.
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Zuko Droner
Dominion of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 13:19:00 -
[4080]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood What's to blame for the nanocide? Rigs.
Rigs brought on the first nerf, because fools figured out how to go 20kms in typhoons. Understandable. First nerf with coinciding removal of the offending MWD booster rig.
Remove polycarbs, remove snakes and you will still have fast ships, just not ungodly fast.
This upcoming nerf is fine, but a real compromise is the rig snake removal.
My worry is where will the next ***** come from. What playstyle will disappear next?
The one that is most effective.
|
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Paulette
Shadow Incursion Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:54:00 -
[4081]
Originally by: Gnulpie
I propose again: add the amount of bonus from mwd as malus to agility. 500% more speed = 500% less agile. PROBLEMS SOLVED!
really this makes a lots of sense make the MWD a get away thing only, not a I own you module...
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Paulette
Shadow Company G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:54:00 -
[4082]
Originally by: Gnulpie
I propose again: add the amount of bonus from mwd as malus to agility. 500% more speed = 500% less agile. PROBLEMS SOLVED!
really this makes a lots of sense make the MWD a get away thing only, not a I own you module...
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Moggy TheCat
Minmatar Arte et Labore
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 12:37:00 -
[4083]
i run threw all the pages and read some interesting and some nonsence comments
me as a non Nano pilot are interested in
does the nanonerf effect my T1 Mwd on a transportship ( blockade runner )
and if a heavy interdictor shows up can he switch off my mwd with his field
And yes in my opinion the game need some speed balancing it cant be that a ship (same class i.e cruiser) fly faster than a max. skilled missile there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.
what i mean is give all ship just a maximum speed and dont change mwds and so on. if the maximum speed is reached and u go over it ( thanks to fitting and implants) u run like overheat into structur. If u overrun your max speed you engage your structural integrity means u take hull damage over time while over max speed.
or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )
but the speedfactor and the structural integrity sound more (eve)-realistic than any change to moduls i can buy/build
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Moggy TheCat
Minmatar Arte et Labore
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 12:37:00 -
[4084]
i run threw all the pages and read some interesting and some nonsence comments
me as a non Nano pilot are interested in
does the nanonerf effect my T1 Mwd on a transportship ( blockade runner )
and if a heavy interdictor shows up can he switch off my mwd with his field
And yes in my opinion the game need some speed balancing it cant be that a ship (same class i.e cruiser) fly faster than a max. skilled missile there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.
what i mean is give all ship just a maximum speed and dont change mwds and so on. if the maximum speed is reached and u go over it ( thanks to fitting and implants) u run like overheat into structur. If u overrun your max speed you engage your structural integrity means u take hull damage over time while over max speed.
or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )
but the speedfactor and the structural integrity sound more (eve)-realistic than any change to moduls i can buy/build
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 13:15:00 -
[4085]
Originally by: Moggy TheCat
there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.
We do they are called webs, nuets and points and if you in a skilled group they work great.
Originally by: Moggy TheCat or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )
So much for the theory of relativity then hey bud lol.
If the missiles are in your tubes they are already going at the speed your traveling ffs, although its odd that in eve mechanics as soon as they clear your tubes they come to a sudden stop then accelerate and travel at there own speed.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 13:15:00 -
[4086]
Originally by: Moggy TheCat
there is just a simple way to get rid of all problems with the speed. as eve is a skill based game. so u must have a chance to engage a nanoship with good skilled chars.
We do they are called webs, nuets and points and if you in a skilled group they work great.
Originally by: Moggy TheCat or another idea could be to make it impossible to fire missiles if your speed is over the missile velocity, cos they will explode within your launcher ( like that cyno exploid )
So much for the theory of relativity then hey bud lol.
If the missiles are in your tubes they are already going at the speed your traveling ffs, although its odd that in eve mechanics as soon as they clear your tubes they come to a sudden stop then accelerate and travel at there own speed.
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N3oXr2ii
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:46:00 -
[4087]
i have never come across a nano'd ship so i thought this nerf would not affect me but i read and get shocked with this a webber nerf wtf i thought the hole point was to slow these ships down and it does seem like ur nerfin the blasterboat why not just give all ships a max speed that solves the whole problem without nerfing anything but hey when did ccp ever listen to us
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N3oXr2ii
X10 Punishment
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 21:46:00 -
[4088]
i have never come across a nano'd ship so i thought this nerf would not affect me but i read and get shocked with this a webber nerf wtf i thought the hole point was to slow these ships down and it does seem like ur nerfin the blasterboat why not just give all ships a max speed that solves the whole problem without nerfing anything but hey when did ccp ever listen to us
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Burn Mac
Minmatar Burning Steel Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 21:50:00 -
[4089]
Well what happened to the new nerf? You were going to rethink? hmm when do i get this shaft everyone is talking about will it be a low slot item?
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Burn Mac
Minmatar The Tuskers
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 21:50:00 -
[4090]
Well what happened to the new nerf? You were going to rethink? hmm when do i get this shaft everyone is talking about will it be a low slot item?
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:31:00 -
[4091]
CCP seems to have gone to ground lately; has the nano-nerf gone the way of the carrier nerf or are all the devs just hanging out at the drawing-board? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 17:31:00 -
[4092]
CCP seems to have gone to ground lately; has the nano-nerf gone the way of the carrier nerf or are all the devs just hanging out at the drawing-board? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved
|
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:15:00 -
[4093]
I'd love to see that follow up blog
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved
|
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:15:00 -
[4094]
I'd love to see that follow up blog
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Idara
Caldari Failure Corp
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:48:00 -
[4095]
Where the **** is some information about these changes? A blog a month ago, a couple Dev posts here and there, and then nothing.
Seems like you're avoiding saying much to avoid the uproar that the carrier "fix" blog caused. ---
in EVE - Idara |
Idara
Caldari Failure Corp
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:48:00 -
[4096]
Where the **** is some information about these changes? A blog a month ago, a couple Dev posts here and there, and then nothing.
Seems like you're avoiding saying much to avoid the uproar that the carrier "fix" blog caused. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first
in EVE - Idara |
Billy Merc
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 03:24:00 -
[4097]
Edited by: Billy Merc on 27/08/2008 03:24:55 LoL @ this thread ...honestly....people do not like change...especially when said change has a significant effect one ones day to day routine...or play style...
No matter what CCP does....there will always be someone unhappy...why ?? because it is impossible to keep everyone happy, especially in such a diverse and rich environment as eve is today..
But what makes eve so good is this diversity TBFH...u take away the diversity...and it becomes boring...sure ôspeed in generalö needs a (very specific) kick in the guts...but i think CCP really need to put ALOT more thought into it than they currently (?) are.
IF they want to nerf it, they need to accept that there WILL be a lot of work involved, and not just take the cheap road out by just nerfing the attributes in general....i think these nerfs need to be VERY VERY specific...for example i can and have flown vagas in the past...i like the way they are now (prefer zealot tho)...they are meant to be fast....if u want them to go OMGWTF fast...u have to pay LOTS of money to do so...and all it takes is a dirty old heyena ..and the investment CAN go down the shit shoot..and fast (look at any real killboard for evidence)....it has one strength...its speed..and that strength comes undone very quickly around a webifier or neut.
I think alot of the tossers complaining are those who have buck all experience OR those that have not put some thought/training into adapting...you can trow all the EFT u want at this thread because it means Sweet phuk all when it comes to actual play....and to all those who are *****in here about speed...i challenge u....go around...look at all the big alliances killboards...nano ships are VERY FAR from invincible.......
For the record...iÆd choose a tank zealot over a vaga any day so i couldnÆt give 2 shades of a flying ***** if these changes make it in.....
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Billy Merc
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 03:24:00 -
[4098]
Edited by: Billy Merc on 27/08/2008 03:24:55 LoL @ this thread ...honestly....people do not like change...especially when said change has a significant effect one ones day to day routine...or play style...
No matter what CCP does....there will always be someone unhappy...why ?? because it is impossible to keep everyone happy, especially in such a diverse and rich environment as eve is today..
But what makes eve so good is this diversity TBFH...u take away the diversity...and it becomes boring...sure ôspeed in generalö needs a (very specific) kick in the guts...but i think CCP really need to put ALOT more thought into it than they currently (?) are.
IF they want to nerf it, they need to accept that there WILL be a lot of work involved, and not just take the cheap road out by just nerfing the attributes in general....i think these nerfs need to be VERY VERY specific...for example i can and have flown vagas in the past...i like the way they are now (prefer zealot tho)...they are meant to be fast....if u want them to go OMGWTF fast...u have to pay LOTS of money to do so...and all it takes is a dirty old heyena ..and the investment CAN go down the shit shoot..and fast (look at any real killboard for evidence)....it has one strength...its speed..and that strength comes undone very quickly around a webifier or neut.
I think alot of the tossers complaining are those who have buck all experience OR those that have not put some thought/training into adapting...you can trow all the EFT u want at this thread because it means Sweet phuk all when it comes to actual play....and to all those who are *****in here about speed...i challenge u....go around...look at all the big alliances killboards...nano ships are VERY FAR from invincible.......
For the record...iÆd choose a tank zealot over a vaga any day so i couldnÆt give 2 shades of a flying ***** if these changes make it in.....
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Max Deth
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:39:00 -
[4099]
Edited by: Max Deth on 27/08/2008 14:39:57
Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 21/08/2008 08:36:52
Anyhow, each aspect of EvE which tends to slow down the pace of the game renders the whole premise more unattractive. Why should I log on a game which trumpets the amount of simultaneously logged in players as feature if I end fighting peeps who show less originality than any NPC of a third-class shooter of the 90's due to artificially imposed limitations ?
As I said, all they had to do was implementing a 200% falloff on webs, and bring missiles up to speed. But no, let's turn EvE into a contest of snails and turtles. For Pete's sake, Jules Verne was way more SciFi than all this BS...
QFT
a contest of snails and turtles indeed.
what is wrong with you Nozh? you see a tactic in the game that is fun, enjoyable, fast paced game play, and you come to the conclusion that it must stop? If your game engine is taxed by the speed then fix the engine, instead of nerfing speed.
my corp had a nano gang of 5 or 6 come into our space the other day, and it just stirred up the whole corp/alliance, it was awesome. do not nerf fun.
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Max Deth
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Posted - 2008.08.27 14:39:00 -
[4100]
Edited by: Max Deth on 27/08/2008 14:39:57
Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 21/08/2008 08:36:52
Anyhow, each aspect of EvE which tends to slow down the pace of the game renders the whole premise more unattractive. Why should I log on a game which trumpets the amount of simultaneously logged in players as feature if I end fighting peeps who show less originality than any NPC of a third-class shooter of the 90's due to artificially imposed limitations ?
As I said, all they had to do was implementing a 200% falloff on webs, and bring missiles up to speed. But no, let's turn EvE into a contest of snails and turtles. For Pete's sake, Jules Verne was way more SciFi than all this BS...
QFT
a contest of snails and turtles indeed.
what is wrong with you Nozh? you see a tactic in the game that is fun, enjoyable, fast paced game play, and you come to the conclusion that it must stop? If your game engine is taxed by the speed then fix the engine, instead of nerfing speed.
my corp had a nano gang of 5 or 6 come into our space the other day, and it just stirred up the whole corp/alliance, it was awesome. do not nerf fun.
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Havok Pierce
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:47:00 -
[4101]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
That's close to my current PVE fit (remove the highslots, change the hardeners to another LSE2 and a rat-specific shield amp). Meaning it's a fit that requires dedicated tacklers--I use mine to AFK L4 missions.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
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Havok Pierce
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:47:00 -
[4102]
Originally by: Stab Wounds [Ishtar, shield] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dark Blood Small Nosferatu [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger II Core Defence Field Purger II
Ogre II x5
DPS: 634
Defense: 904
HACs look fine to me after speed nerf. you have to use unconventional pvp fits.
That's close to my current PVE fit (remove the highslots, change the hardeners to another LSE2 and a rat-specific shield amp). Meaning it's a fit that requires dedicated tacklers--I use mine to AFK L4 missions.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:58:00 -
[4103]
one month later
where ya at Nohz? ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:58:00 -
[4104]
one month later
where ya at Nohz? ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 05:28:00 -
[4105]
RESPOONSE NOW! poudly annoying fc's since 2007
Originally by: Sheriff Jones *ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners...*goes back to reading*
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 05:28:00 -
[4106]
RESPOONSE NOW! Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
Ares Mars
Caldari The Night Crew
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 05:55:00 -
[4107]
I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks Run to fight another day>>> WCS all the way>>> |
Ares Mars
Caldari The Night Crew
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 05:55:00 -
[4108]
I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks Run to fight another day>>> WCS all the way>>> |
Hoinus
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 09:55:00 -
[4109]
I got an idea, leave all the stuff as is and have ships start taking damage from going too fast (lol maybe). Perhaps just nerf the few implants/rigs that make it extremely fast. But the webber change is... Or make it so ships can't substain the insane speeds for long periods without retreating. Also buff blasters (either more damage or better tracking/range), would lean on damage to not turn them into clones. Blah... |
Hoinus
Gallente Demon Theory UNLeashed Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 09:55:00 -
[4110]
I got an idea, leave all the stuff as is and have ships start taking damage from going too fast (lol maybe). Perhaps just nerf the few implants/rigs that make it extremely fast. But the webber change is... Or make it so ships can't substain the insane speeds for long periods without retreating. Also buff blasters (either more damage or better tracking/range), would lean on damage to not turn them into clones.
Blah... |
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CMHQ Morswin
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 20:17:00 -
[4111]
wow my ares is going to rock !!! with bonus to warp scrabler ares will be able to keep any ship at the range of 10-13km just enough to not to get into their warp scrambler range, orbit with an mwd on, even if ares got a web, 60% speed reduction will still mean over 2 or 3 km/s speed, imposible to get hit by medium size guns, and maybe medium drones, the same with taranis and other ceptors :)
what about getting out a babble during fleet battles? if bs and hac ships speed are reduced there will be no way for them to get out of the bobble and surgive a camp of several snipe bs, there would be no way to get into a camped system without capital support, systems with cyno jamers might be impossible to capture :(
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CMHQ Morswin
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 20:17:00 -
[4112]
wow my ares is going to rock !!! with bonus to warp scrabler ares will be able to keep any ship at the range of 10-13km just enough to not to get into their warp scrambler range, orbit with an mwd on, even if ares got a web, 60% speed reduction will still mean over 2 or 3 km/s speed, imposible to get hit by medium size guns, and maybe medium drones, the same with taranis and other ceptors :)
what about getting out a babble during fleet battles? if bs and hac ships speed are reduced there will be no way for them to get out of the bobble and surgive a camp of several snipe bs, there would be no way to get into a camped system without capital support, systems with cyno jamers might be impossible to capture :(
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Brionos
Specialized Light Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 23:06:00 -
[4113]
Edited by: Brionos on 28/08/2008 23:10:32 While we are wasting time talking about other solutions, how about something similar to real life? The USN fields the Aegis-class missile cruisers specifically to intercept very small, fast inbound targets.
Introduce a cruiser/bc with bonuses specifically to fight nano's.. a T2 Drake or Cerb variant that spits its payload fast enough to worry a vaga or similar would be mighty fun in some sectors of space.
Would this work? I have no idea tbh, but it sounds interesting enough to throw into the mix of ideas.
Thinking about this, one possible downfall would be a switch to heavy tacklers as inty's become even more vulnerable.. so balance is still a problem. |
Brionos
Specialized Light Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 23:06:00 -
[4114]
Edited by: Brionos on 28/08/2008 23:10:32 While we are wasting time talking about other solutions, how about something similar to real life? The USN fields the Aegis-class missile cruisers specifically to intercept very small, fast inbound targets.
Introduce a cruiser/bc with bonuses specifically to fight nano's.. a T2 Drake or Cerb variant that spits its payload fast enough to worry a vaga or similar would be mighty fun in some sectors of space.
Would this work? I have no idea tbh, but it sounds interesting enough to throw into the mix of ideas.
Thinking about this, one possible downfall would be a switch to heavy tacklers as inty's become even more vulnerable.. so balance is still a problem. |
Semkhet
Spartan Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 10:00:00 -
[4115]
Originally by: Brionos Edited by: Brionos on 28/08/2008 23:10:32 While we are wasting time talking about other solutions, how about something similar to real life? The USN fields the Aegis-class missile cruisers specifically to intercept very small, fast inbound targets.
Introduce a cruiser/bc with bonuses specifically to fight nano's.. a T2 Drake or Cerb variant that spits its payload fast enough to worry a vaga or similar would be mighty fun in some sectors of space.
Would this work? I have no idea tbh, but it sounds interesting enough to throw into the mix of ideas.
Thinking about this, one possible downfall would be a switch to heavy tacklers as inty's become even more vulnerable.. so balance is still a problem.
Good idea, but CCP would need to do that on a T1 ship, and not a T2 variant.
This could both fix the role of destroyers and be a welcomed opening to introduce young low-sp players as viable PvP support since these dessies do not require much training. Giv'em uber PG, weapon range, tracking and ROF bonuses to turn them into nasty little buggers but lacking any meaningful tank.
They would be cheap and effective.
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Semkhet
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 10:00:00 -
[4116]
Originally by: Brionos Edited by: Brionos on 28/08/2008 23:10:32 While we are wasting time talking about other solutions, how about something similar to real life? The USN fields the Aegis-class missile cruisers specifically to intercept very small, fast inbound targets.
Introduce a cruiser/bc with bonuses specifically to fight nano's.. a T2 Drake or Cerb variant that spits its payload fast enough to worry a vaga or similar would be mighty fun in some sectors of space.
Would this work? I have no idea tbh, but it sounds interesting enough to throw into the mix of ideas.
Thinking about this, one possible downfall would be a switch to heavy tacklers as inty's become even more vulnerable.. so balance is still a problem.
Good idea, but CCP would need to do that on a T1 ship, and not a T2 variant.
This could both fix the role of destroyers and be a welcomed opening to introduce young low-sp players as viable PvP support since these dessies do not require much training. Giv'em uber PG, weapon range, tracking and ROF bonuses to turn them into nasty little buggers but lacking any meaningful tank.
They would be cheap and effective.
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Arkon Rhys
Minmatar Equilibrium Inc. FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 13:00:00 -
[4117]
These changes are interesting, it is long ovedue that the stacking penalties come into play for a nano ship, seeing an interceptor go 14,000 m/s makes me cry. Using an AB with good skills can get a good speed without the nerf to your capacitor. It will help the arazu be a more solo centric ship as it will be able to use a scrambler to aid in it's defence. I do however worry over the stasis webifier changes, is the T2 variant going to be higher than 50-60%? and what about faction webifiers? It is gimping the rapier and huginn quite a bit so as to possibly make em not worth the bother of flying, I know us Minmatar are used to being trod on but this is a bit much, could scrypts not work better for webifiers? Then the people that have spent the time training recon ships could still have a good use for their ships instead of em having webifiers that do not do very much and they are sitting in lumps of metal worth about a hundred million and not being able to contribute much to a fleet and not worth using solo as it will break when looked at harshly.
I personally dont nano my ships as I feel it takes the danger out of some situations and it doesnt suit my style of play, I do however like to use webifiers for helping my weapons hit.
To introduce a proper stacking penalty would surely work better, it works with other mods when you use more than two in general. Speed tanking takes a lot of isk to do well and I quite enjoy the task of trying to catch those wiley buggers
CCP, can you be a bit more precise in the changes to webifiers? 50-60% is vague and needs explaining ---------------------------------------------- Fear me...for I am Noob! ---------------------------------------------- |
Arkon Rhys
Minmatar Equilibrium Inc. FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 13:00:00 -
[4118]
These changes are interesting, it is long ovedue that the stacking penalties come into play for a nano ship, seeing an interceptor go 14,000 m/s makes me cry. Using an AB with good skills can get a good speed without the nerf to your capacitor. It will help the arazu be a more solo centric ship as it will be able to use a scrambler to aid in it's defence. I do however worry over the stasis webifier changes, is the T2 variant going to be higher than 50-60%? and what about faction webifiers? It is gimping the rapier and huginn quite a bit so as to possibly make em not worth the bother of flying, I know us Minmatar are used to being trod on but this is a bit much, could scrypts not work better for webifiers? Then the people that have spent the time training recon ships could still have a good use for their ships instead of em having webifiers that do not do very much and they are sitting in lumps of metal worth about a hundred million and not being able to contribute much to a fleet and not worth using solo as it will break when looked at harshly.
I personally dont nano my ships as I feel it takes the danger out of some situations and it doesnt suit my style of play, I do however like to use webifiers for helping my weapons hit.
To introduce a proper stacking penalty would surely work better, it works with other mods when you use more than two in general. Speed tanking takes a lot of isk to do well and I quite enjoy the task of trying to catch those wiley buggers
CCP, can you be a bit more precise in the changes to webifiers? 50-60% is vague and needs explaining ---------------------------------------------- Fear me...for I am Noob! ---------------------------------------------- |
Spyra Gryra
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 03:22:00 -
[4119]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
Sorry I lmao @ this. |
Spyra Gryra
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 03:22:00 -
[4120]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
Sorry I lmao @ this.
CR-SE old timer. AKA "the dude"
|
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Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:06:00 -
[4121]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
So you think that a simple ceptor with a basic mwd and speed fit should out run every ship in the game no matter how the ship is fitted or boosted?...... |
Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:06:00 -
[4122]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
So you think that a simple ceptor with a basic mwd and speed fit should out run every ship in the game no matter how the ship is fitted or boosted?......
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BuckStrider
Fleem Co
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 13:09:00 -
[4123]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
Your lack of experience shows.
If you jump into a gate camp, have you ever thought of MWD back to the gate you just came in?
95% of the time, even if it's 20+ HACS all ganged banged and drugged out, you'll make it back to the gate without even getting shot at. |
BuckStrider
Fleem Co
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 13:09:00 -
[4124]
Originally by: Ares Mars I am tired of being caught on a gate camp in my MWD interceptor by a cursier slapped up on gang bonuses and drugs... stupid.. make the speeds more equal... some ships should never catch certin other ships... thanks
Your lack of experience shows.
If you jump into a gate camp, have you ever thought of MWD back to the gate you just came in?
95% of the time, even if it's 20+ HACS all ganged banged and drugged out, you'll make it back to the gate without even getting shot at.
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Caldfyr Aisyr'Gir
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 16:40:00 -
[4125]
I like that destroyers will gain some value from this. When did frigates become fighter craft, anyways?
Also, guerilla warfare has more to do with mobility than speed. A gang of T2 frigs circling some blob members aren't guerrilla fighters, they're speed tankers.
Use afterburners and warp core stabs to go in, blow something up, and get back out alive. Alive does not mean undamaged. Basically, start thinking about assassins. If there's one thing I took away from DAoC as an assassin class, it's that the mages will never stop sitting down on top of castle walls just begging to have their throats slit. The same thing applies to Eve. There's always going to be noobs in the blobs who can't figure out what's going on or can't be bothered to pay attention. Get a covert ops to pick targets, warp in, blow up noobs, warp out while the blob is still trying to react. It doesn't take long for a dozen cruisers to smash an unwary battleship. Rinse and repeat for hours of hilarity. If they start interdicting around their own ships, mount a sniper loadout, blow up 1 or 2 ships and warp out again. Guerrilla fighting doesn't crush fleets, it nibbles away at them.
It sounds like blaster pilots are complaining that they can't viably target smaller ship classes. Personally, if a Megathron pilot wants to be effective against, say, a Thorax, the Mega should mount some medium guns. However, blaster boats would need to be given boosts which would make their "big vs. smaller" effectiveness proportionate to long-range alternatives. Giving blaster boats inherent range and strength bonuses to the new 15km scrambler and webifiers might work.
Maybe some straight-from-the-factory inertial dampener bonuses that make blaster boats get an inherent acceleration boost, enabling a Megathron to accelerate far far more quickly than a Dominix. That way the Mega's top speed of ~1200 is reached quick enough to make the Domi's 600m/s catchable.
|
Caldfyr Aisyr'Gir
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 16:40:00 -
[4126]
I like that destroyers will gain some value from this. When did frigates become fighter craft, anyways?
Also, guerilla warfare has more to do with mobility than speed. A gang of T2 frigs circling some blob members aren't guerrilla fighters, they're speed tankers.
Use afterburners and warp core stabs to go in, blow something up, and get back out alive. Alive does not mean undamaged. Basically, start thinking about assassins. If there's one thing I took away from DAoC as an assassin class, it's that the mages will never stop sitting down on top of castle walls just begging to have their throats slit. The same thing applies to Eve. There's always going to be noobs in the blobs who can't figure out what's going on or can't be bothered to pay attention. Get a covert ops to pick targets, warp in, blow up noobs, warp out while the blob is still trying to react. It doesn't take long for a dozen cruisers to smash an unwary battleship. Rinse and repeat for hours of hilarity. If they start interdicting around their own ships, mount a sniper loadout, blow up 1 or 2 ships and warp out again. Guerrilla fighting doesn't crush fleets, it nibbles away at them.
It sounds like blaster pilots are complaining that they can't viably target smaller ship classes. Personally, if a Megathron pilot wants to be effective against, say, a Thorax, the Mega should mount some medium guns. However, blaster boats would need to be given boosts which would make their "big vs. smaller" effectiveness proportionate to long-range alternatives. Giving blaster boats inherent range and strength bonuses to the new 15km scrambler and webifiers might work.
Maybe some straight-from-the-factory inertial dampener bonuses that make blaster boats get an inherent acceleration boost, enabling a Megathron to accelerate far far more quickly than a Dominix. That way the Mega's top speed of ~1200 is reached quick enough to make the Domi's 600m/s catchable.
|
Gregore Jandori
Caldari Flashpoint.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 17:03:00 -
[4127]
How about some updates, CCP??? Give us some information on what the hell's going on, please. This is obviously something that is near and dear to everyone's heart (whether positive or negative), but the last official word we have is the original dev blog and a couple of responses sprinkled in...
|
Gregore Jandori
Caldari Flashpoint.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 17:03:00 -
[4128]
How about some updates, CCP??? Give us some information on what the hell's going on, please. This is obviously something that is near and dear to everyone's heart (whether positive or negative), but the last official word we have is the original dev blog and a couple of responses sprinkled in...
|
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:10:00 -
[4129]
Funny how everyone gets so ****ed that they can no longer /EXPLOIT/ a broken mechanic in a game.
This is a problem that's been well known to all proper players of EVE, you all realy need to stop whining.
'Boohoo! It's going to make Solo PvP worthless'.... no it's not, it's going to make solo PvP less GODLY. There is absolutely no reason why a couple interceptors can take out a large gang. It's not good fun gameplay. Hell, I even /HAVE/ an interceptor, so I get to feel how broken they are, and sure, it's kind of fun, but then again, it's stupid that I can /outrun/ standard missiles. It's just not right, and makes the game buggy.
All of you whining that it'll make small-gang/solo pvp useless are exploiters and deserve to be useless, if that's what this nerf will do.... Or you could just be /better/ at the game. I've solo PvP'd and wolf-packed my Stealth Bomber as well as a non-nano Interceptor.
Sure, it'll make it harder to fight blobs, but a solo/small-gang isn't going to beat a blob in any real-world situation. When fighting in blobs, it's normally the biggest blob wins (not always, but usually). A small group of interceptors shouldn't have a chance on their own, it doesn't make any sense.
I also don't like that MWD is almost a requirement for any ship in PvP (unless you're Caldari), and that AB is almost useless.
Only times I ever see an AB used is for making a super slow ship not quite so slow so it can move or some other mildly useless applications.
I hate all of you who argue that this nerf is ridicuolous. I do say they need to attack Nano before they attack anything, but this is a start, and it'll make it harder for solo/small-gang but it's not /supposed/ to be easy.
Hell, let's take a look at an anti-speed nerf. Let's give cruisers and larger /huge/ bonuses to speed to match speed tankers, aswell as boost missile speed to 20km/s for standards and scaled up.
Hmm... I'm guessing if that happened you all would probably whine even more! That would truly make small-gang and solo pvp useless, aswell as take away the thing that makes all of y'all's super-fast ships so much fun.
It's super unbalanced, and any balance changes made will make you exploiters whine, because you love exactly what makes this unbalanced. When you realize this, it makes you a cheater, and, instead of banning all of you exploiters, CCP is deciding to nerf speed.
So deal with the nerf, or maybe we should get a petition up to have CCP ban all exploiters, maybe that'll stop you all from whining when your account is axed off of the servers and you're banned from forums, etc.
Nerf or Ban. You decide. ----- Nerf or ---> Speed Exploiters Ban ----- |
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:10:00 -
[4130]
Funny how everyone gets so ****ed that they can no longer /EXPLOIT/ a broken mechanic in a game.
This is a problem that's been well known to all proper players of EVE, you all realy need to stop whining.
'Boohoo! It's going to make Solo PvP worthless'.... no it's not, it's going to make solo PvP less GODLY. There is absolutely no reason why a couple interceptors can take out a large gang. It's not good fun gameplay. Hell, I even /HAVE/ an interceptor, so I get to feel how broken they are, and sure, it's kind of fun, but then again, it's stupid that I can /outrun/ standard missiles. It's just not right, and makes the game buggy.
All of you whining that it'll make small-gang/solo pvp useless are exploiters and deserve to be useless, if that's what this nerf will do.... Or you could just be /better/ at the game. I've solo PvP'd and wolf-packed my Stealth Bomber as well as a non-nano Interceptor.
Sure, it'll make it harder to fight blobs, but a solo/small-gang isn't going to beat a blob in any real-world situation. When fighting in blobs, it's normally the biggest blob wins (not always, but usually). A small group of interceptors shouldn't have a chance on their own, it doesn't make any sense.
I also don't like that MWD is almost a requirement for any ship in PvP (unless you're Caldari), and that AB is almost useless.
Only times I ever see an AB used is for making a super slow ship not quite so slow so it can move or some other mildly useless applications.
I hate all of you who argue that this nerf is ridicuolous. I do say they need to attack Nano before they attack anything, but this is a start, and it'll make it harder for solo/small-gang but it's not /supposed/ to be easy.
Hell, let's take a look at an anti-speed nerf. Let's give cruisers and larger /huge/ bonuses to speed to match speed tankers, aswell as boost missile speed to 20km/s for standards and scaled up.
Hmm... I'm guessing if that happened you all would probably whine even more! That would truly make small-gang and solo pvp useless, aswell as take away the thing that makes all of y'all's super-fast ships so much fun.
It's super unbalanced, and any balance changes made will make you exploiters whine, because you love exactly what makes this unbalanced. When you realize this, it makes you a cheater, and, instead of banning all of you exploiters, CCP is deciding to nerf speed.
So deal with the nerf, or maybe we should get a petition up to have CCP ban all exploiters, maybe that'll stop you all from whining when your account is axed off of the servers and you're banned from forums, etc.
Nerf or Ban. You decide. ----- Nerf or ---> Speed Exploiters Ban ----- |
|
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:17:00 -
[4131]
Originally by: Billy Merc Edited by: Billy Merc on 27/08/2008 03:24:55 LoL @ this thread ...honestly....people do not like change...especially when said change has a significant effect one ones day to day routine...or play style...
No matter what CCP does....there will always be someone unhappy...why ?? because it is impossible to keep everyone happy, especially in such a diverse and rich environment as eve is today..
But what makes eve so good is this diversity TBFH...u take away the diversity...and it becomes boring...sure ôspeed in generalö needs a (very specific) kick in the guts...but i think CCP really need to put ALOT more thought into it than they currently (?) are.
IF they want to nerf it, they need to accept that there WILL be a lot of work involved, and not just take the cheap road out by just nerfing the attributes in general....i think these nerfs need to be VERY VERY specific...for example i can and have flown vagas in the past...i like the way they are now (prefer zealot tho)...they are meant to be fast....if u want them to go OMGWTF fast...u have to pay LOTS of money to do so...and all it takes is a dirty old heyena ..and the investment CAN go down the shit shoot..and fast (look at any real killboard for evidence)....it has one strength...its speed..and that strength comes undone very quickly around a webifier or neut.
I think alot of the tossers complaining are those who have buck all experience OR those that have not put some thought/training into adapting...you can trow all the EFT u want at this thread because it means Sweet phuk all when it comes to actual play....and to all those who are *****in here about speed...i challenge u....go around...look at all the big alliances killboards...nano ships are VERY FAR from invincible.......
For the record...iÆd choose a tank zealot over a vaga any day so i couldnÆt give 2 shades of a flying ***** if these changes make it in.....
It's not about them being invincible. It's about them being the staple of PvP. Nano's win over almost anything out there. That shouldn't be right. Sure, it's easy to pop the, if they're stupid. But if they're not, then you're ****ed, doesn't matter how smart you are, nano ships are easy-mode. Once you figure them out and get your style going, you're not going to get hit other than the random web here or there that luckily captures you. ----- Nerf or ---> Speed Exploiters Ban ----- |
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:17:00 -
[4132]
Originally by: Billy Merc Edited by: Billy Merc on 27/08/2008 03:24:55 LoL @ this thread ...honestly....people do not like change...especially when said change has a significant effect one ones day to day routine...or play style...
No matter what CCP does....there will always be someone unhappy...why ?? because it is impossible to keep everyone happy, especially in such a diverse and rich environment as eve is today..
But what makes eve so good is this diversity TBFH...u take away the diversity...and it becomes boring...sure ôspeed in generalö needs a (very specific) kick in the guts...but i think CCP really need to put ALOT more thought into it than they currently (?) are.
IF they want to nerf it, they need to accept that there WILL be a lot of work involved, and not just take the cheap road out by just nerfing the attributes in general....i think these nerfs need to be VERY VERY specific...for example i can and have flown vagas in the past...i like the way they are now (prefer zealot tho)...they are meant to be fast....if u want them to go OMGWTF fast...u have to pay LOTS of money to do so...and all it takes is a dirty old heyena ..and the investment CAN go down the shit shoot..and fast (look at any real killboard for evidence)....it has one strength...its speed..and that strength comes undone very quickly around a webifier or neut.
I think alot of the tossers complaining are those who have buck all experience OR those that have not put some thought/training into adapting...you can trow all the EFT u want at this thread because it means Sweet phuk all when it comes to actual play....and to all those who are *****in here about speed...i challenge u....go around...look at all the big alliances killboards...nano ships are VERY FAR from invincible.......
For the record...iÆd choose a tank zealot over a vaga any day so i couldnÆt give 2 shades of a flying ***** if these changes make it in.....
It's not about them being invincible. It's about them being the staple of PvP. Nano's win over almost anything out there. That shouldn't be right. Sure, it's easy to pop the, if they're stupid. But if they're not, then you're ****ed, doesn't matter how smart you are, nano ships are easy-mode. Once you figure them out and get your style going, you're not going to get hit other than the random web here or there that luckily captures you. ----- Nerf or ---> Speed Exploiters Ban ----- |
Max Vi0lence
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:32:00 -
[4133]
I didn`t really want to post on this thread but I can`t help it. CCP the old nerf thing ruins this game tbh. People train long and hard, spend their isk on items to achieve a goal and then it is taken away. I hope you are planning on compensating those with polycarb rigged ships or snakes. Oh no of course your not. I personally will be uneffected but it is a worrying trend, the carrier nerf was bad enough and whats next? Best not buy any slaves cause that armour tanking looks good........maybe too good. |
Max Vi0lence
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:32:00 -
[4134]
I didn`t really want to post on this thread but I can`t help it. CCP the old nerf thing ruins this game tbh. People train long and hard, spend their isk on items to achieve a goal and then it is taken away. I hope you are planning on compensating those with polycarb rigged ships or snakes. Oh no of course your not. I personally will be uneffected but it is a worrying trend, the carrier nerf was bad enough and whats next? Best not buy any slaves cause that armour tanking looks good........maybe too good.
|
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 19:43:00 -
[4135]
Originally by: Max Vi0lence I didn`t really want to post on this thread but I can`t help it. CCP the old nerf thing ruins this game tbh. People train long and hard, spend their isk on items to achieve a goal and then it is taken away. I hope you are planning on compensating those with polycarb rigged ships or snakes. Oh no of course your not. I personally will be uneffected but it is a worrying trend, the carrier nerf was bad enough and whats next? Best not buy any slaves cause that armour tanking looks good........maybe too good.
lol, if you spent your skillset towards exploiting the faulty speed, then it's your own damned fault, and you don't deserve compensation. Not like those skills you 'wasted' won't help you still, they just won't help as much. |
Keitoshi Yamada
Caldari Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 19:43:00 -
[4136]
Originally by: Max Vi0lence I didn`t really want to post on this thread but I can`t help it. CCP the old nerf thing ruins this game tbh. People train long and hard, spend their isk on items to achieve a goal and then it is taken away. I hope you are planning on compensating those with polycarb rigged ships or snakes. Oh no of course your not. I personally will be uneffected but it is a worrying trend, the carrier nerf was bad enough and whats next? Best not buy any slaves cause that armour tanking looks good........maybe too good.
lol, if you spent your skillset towards exploiting the faulty speed, then it's your own damned fault, and you don't deserve compensation. Not like those skills you 'wasted' won't help you still, they just won't help as much. |
Spyra Gryra
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 19:51:00 -
[4137]
Originally by: Keitoshi Yamada Funny how everyone gets so ****ed that they can no longer /EXPLOIT/ a broken mechanic in a game.
This is a problem that's been well known to all proper players of EVE, you all realy need to stop whining.
'Boohoo! It's going to make Solo PvP worthless'.... no it's not, it's going to make solo PvP less GODLY. There is absolutely no reason why a couple interceptors can take out a large gang. It's not good fun gameplay. Hell, I even /HAVE/ an interceptor, so I get to feel how broken they are, and sure, it's kind of fun, but then again, it's stupid that I can /outrun/ standard missiles. It's just not right, and makes the game buggy.
All of you whining that it'll make small-gang/solo pvp useless are exploiters and deserve to be useless, if that's what this nerf will do.... Or you could just be /better/ at the game. I've solo PvP'd and wolf-packed my Stealth Bomber as well as a non-nano Interceptor.
Sure, it'll make it harder to fight blobs, but a solo/small-gang isn't going to beat a blob in any real-world situation. When fighting in blobs, it's normally the biggest blob wins (not always, but usually). A small group of interceptors shouldn't have a chance on their own, it doesn't make any sense.
I also don't like that MWD is almost a requirement for any ship in PvP (unless you're Caldari), and that AB is almost useless.
Only times I ever see an AB used is for making a super slow ship not quite so slow so it can move or some other mildly useless applications.
I hate all of you who argue that this nerf is ridicuolous. I do say they need to attack Nano before they attack anything, but this is a start, and it'll make it harder for solo/small-gang but it's not /supposed/ to be easy.
Hell, let's take a look at an anti-speed nerf. Let's give cruisers and larger /huge/ bonuses to speed to match speed tankers, aswell as boost missile speed to 20km/s for standards and scaled up.
Hmm... I'm guessing if that happened you all would probably whine even more! That would truly make small-gang and solo pvp useless, aswell as take away the thing that makes all of y'all's super-fast ships so much fun.
It's super unbalanced, and any balance changes made will make you exploiters whine, because you love exactly what makes this unbalanced. When you realize this, it makes you a cheater, and, instead of banning all of you exploiters, CCP is deciding to nerf speed.
So deal with the nerf, or maybe we should get a petition up to have CCP ban all exploiters, maybe that'll stop you all from whining when your account is axed off of the servers and you're banned from forums, etc.
Nerf or Ban. You decide.
You are very angry and /stupid/ |
Spyra Gryra
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 19:51:00 -
[4138]
Originally by: Keitoshi Yamada Funny how everyone gets so ****ed that they can no longer /EXPLOIT/ a broken mechanic in a game.
This is a problem that's been well known to all proper players of EVE, you all realy need to stop whining.
'Boohoo! It's going to make Solo PvP worthless'.... no it's not, it's going to make solo PvP less GODLY. There is absolutely no reason why a couple interceptors can take out a large gang. It's not good fun gameplay. Hell, I even /HAVE/ an interceptor, so I get to feel how broken they are, and sure, it's kind of fun, but then again, it's stupid that I can /outrun/ standard missiles. It's just not right, and makes the game buggy.
All of you whining that it'll make small-gang/solo pvp useless are exploiters and deserve to be useless, if that's what this nerf will do.... Or you could just be /better/ at the game. I've solo PvP'd and wolf-packed my Stealth Bomber as well as a non-nano Interceptor.
Sure, it'll make it harder to fight blobs, but a solo/small-gang isn't going to beat a blob in any real-world situation. When fighting in blobs, it's normally the biggest blob wins (not always, but usually). A small group of interceptors shouldn't have a chance on their own, it doesn't make any sense.
I also don't like that MWD is almost a requirement for any ship in PvP (unless you're Caldari), and that AB is almost useless.
Only times I ever see an AB used is for making a super slow ship not quite so slow so it can move or some other mildly useless applications.
I hate all of you who argue that this nerf is ridicuolous. I do say they need to attack Nano before they attack anything, but this is a start, and it'll make it harder for solo/small-gang but it's not /supposed/ to be easy.
Hell, let's take a look at an anti-speed nerf. Let's give cruisers and larger /huge/ bonuses to speed to match speed tankers, aswell as boost missile speed to 20km/s for standards and scaled up.
Hmm... I'm guessing if that happened you all would probably whine even more! That would truly make small-gang and solo pvp useless, aswell as take away the thing that makes all of y'all's super-fast ships so much fun.
It's super unbalanced, and any balance changes made will make you exploiters whine, because you love exactly what makes this unbalanced. When you realize this, it makes you a cheater, and, instead of banning all of you exploiters, CCP is deciding to nerf speed.
So deal with the nerf, or maybe we should get a petition up to have CCP ban all exploiters, maybe that'll stop you all from whining when your account is axed off of the servers and you're banned from forums, etc.
Nerf or Ban. You decide.
You are very angry and /stupid/
CR-SE old timer. AKA "the dude"
|
Rydra Wong
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 15:26:00 -
[4139]
I do like a good whine in the afternoon...
Don't whine you've wasted SOO much time training for nano. Not like it takes much to fit a full T2 nano fit, a month of training and 50m isk and you've got ships that outrun missiles fully rigged.
The upside all you solo nano-whiners are forgetting, the noobs that used to just fit nano that you all used to kill being so much more uber than them, will now all have to go fit some nice armor or shield gear, all of which is worth more isk than most nano modules.
The nano trend made it so that if your not in one of about 4 ships with a near identical loadout, your going to lose, unless you fit 2b of faction and officer mods and implants.
It's still a case of those who fit to the max will still be near-godly at speed tanking, the vagabond is STILL a fast ship, especially with a full speed fit including faction, implants, and overburn. Difference is they won't be invincible.
I've spent far too long on the recieving end of a vagabond going at warp speed @ 20km from me hitting with AC's, while i sit glumly in the middle dying, wishing i hadn't fitted blasters!
Though i will miss my Super-speed Ares that can even outrun HAM drakes :)
PS, all go buy Arazu's/Lachesis, I don't sell enough of them!!
|
Rydra Wong
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 15:26:00 -
[4140]
I do like a good whine in the afternoon...
Don't whine you've wasted SOO much time training for nano. Not like it takes much to fit a full T2 nano fit, a month of training and 50m isk and you've got ships that outrun missiles fully rigged.
The upside all you solo nano-whiners are forgetting, the noobs that used to just fit nano that you all used to kill being so much more uber than them, will now all have to go fit some nice armor or shield gear, all of which is worth more isk than most nano modules.
The nano trend made it so that if your not in one of about 4 ships with a near identical loadout, your going to lose, unless you fit 2b of faction and officer mods and implants.
It's still a case of those who fit to the max will still be near-godly at speed tanking, the vagabond is STILL a fast ship, especially with a full speed fit including faction, implants, and overburn. Difference is they won't be invincible.
I've spent far too long on the recieving end of a vagabond going at warp speed @ 20km from me hitting with AC's, while i sit glumly in the middle dying, wishing i hadn't fitted blasters!
Though i will miss my Super-speed Ares that can even outrun HAM drakes :)
PS, all go buy Arazu's/Lachesis, I don't sell enough of them!!
|
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 22:35:00 -
[4141]
Originally by: Rydra Wong I do like a good whine in the afternoon...
Don't whine you've wasted SOO much time training for nano. Not like it takes much to fit a full T2 nano fit, a month of training and 50m isk and you've got ships that outrun missiles fully rigged.
The upside all you solo nano-whiners are forgetting, the noobs that used to just fit nano that you all used to kill being so much more uber than them, will now all have to go fit some nice armor or shield gear, all of which is worth more isk than most nano modules.
The nano trend made it so that if your not in one of about 4 ships with a near identical loadout, your going to lose, unless you fit 2b of faction and officer mods and implants.
It's still a case of those who fit to the max will still be near-godly at speed tanking, the vagabond is STILL a fast ship, especially with a full speed fit including faction, implants, and overburn. Difference is they won't be invincible.
I've spent far too long on the recieving end of a vagabond going at warp speed @ 20km from me hitting with AC's, while i sit glumly in the middle dying, wishing i hadn't fitted blasters!
Though i will miss my Super-speed Ares that can even outrun HAM drakes :)
PS, all go buy Arazu's/Lachesis, I don't sell enough of them!!
1. It takes over 4 or 5 months to train for a nano with t2 weapons, and thats with poor skills. 2. since when were armor and shield modules worth more than nano stuff? tanking rigs are 20mil tops, polys are 60mil. 3. You can nano pretty much any hac or recon and win, iv personally nanoed vagas, muninns, zealots, sacs, ishtars, cerbs, rapiers, huginns, curses, lachesis's, arazus and phoons (plus other smaller stuff) 4. a vagabond thats mwding around you at 20km wont hit you at all....they have to turn off mwd and drop down to around a 15km orbit to do any real damage.
play the game a little before you whine...
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 22:35:00 -
[4142]
Originally by: Rydra Wong I do like a good whine in the afternoon...
Don't whine you've wasted SOO much time training for nano. Not like it takes much to fit a full T2 nano fit, a month of training and 50m isk and you've got ships that outrun missiles fully rigged.
The upside all you solo nano-whiners are forgetting, the noobs that used to just fit nano that you all used to kill being so much more uber than them, will now all have to go fit some nice armor or shield gear, all of which is worth more isk than most nano modules.
The nano trend made it so that if your not in one of about 4 ships with a near identical loadout, your going to lose, unless you fit 2b of faction and officer mods and implants.
It's still a case of those who fit to the max will still be near-godly at speed tanking, the vagabond is STILL a fast ship, especially with a full speed fit including faction, implants, and overburn. Difference is they won't be invincible.
I've spent far too long on the recieving end of a vagabond going at warp speed @ 20km from me hitting with AC's, while i sit glumly in the middle dying, wishing i hadn't fitted blasters!
Though i will miss my Super-speed Ares that can even outrun HAM drakes :)
PS, all go buy Arazu's/Lachesis, I don't sell enough of them!!
1. It takes over 4 or 5 months to train for a nano with t2 weapons, and thats with poor skills. 2. since when were armor and shield modules worth more than nano stuff? tanking rigs are 20mil tops, polys are 60mil. 3. You can nano pretty much any hac or recon and win, iv personally nanoed vagas, muninns, zealots, sacs, ishtars, cerbs, rapiers, huginns, curses, lachesis's, arazus and phoons (plus other smaller stuff) 4. a vagabond thats mwding around you at 20km wont hit you at all....they have to turn off mwd and drop down to around a 15km orbit to do any real damage.
play the game a little before you whine...
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Jukhta Mein
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:17:00 -
[4143]
140 pages and counting.
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Jukhta Mein
Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:17:00 -
[4144]
140 pages and counting.
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CCP Zulupark
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Posted - 2008.09.07 00:48:00 -
[4145]
Edited by: CCP Zulupark on 07/09/2008 00:48:14 there's a small update and additional info here
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CCP Zulupark
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Posted - 2008.09.07 00:48:00 -
[4146]
Edited by: CCP Zulupark on 07/09/2008 00:48:14 there's a small update and additional info here
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Truthbringer
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Posted - 2008.09.07 21:57:00 -
[4147]
I think the most obvious and non-complicated way to fix this is to prevent the usage of offensive modules while the MWD is active. This means you can charge to the target (the initial purpose of the MWD), but you need an afterburner to maintain traversal speed in combat. The MWD remains useful in getting in and out of skirmishes, so guerrilla warfare stays intact. What it does prevent is the ludicrous speed that causes invulnerability.
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Truthbringer
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Posted - 2008.09.07 21:57:00 -
[4148]
I think the most obvious and non-complicated way to fix this is to prevent the usage of offensive modules while the MWD is active. This means you can charge to the target (the initial purpose of the MWD), but you need an afterburner to maintain traversal speed in combat. The MWD remains useful in getting in and out of skirmishes, so guerrilla warfare stays intact. What it does prevent is the ludicrous speed that causes invulnerability.
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gogeta23
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Posted - 2008.09.16 07:25:00 -
[4149]
I spent the isk and I spent the time that I paid for to go as fast as I can. so when I go pop it hurts. I play this game to have fun and ccp takes it away from me at every turn. I pay for the time for my skills. so stop stealing my money. stop nrefing everything. I understand that you want more players and thats fine. but do it by bring new and better things in the game (ships...etc) but plz stop killing the game we all love. nomore nerfs
p.s if this nerf happens I'm done (I hate saying that)
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gogeta23
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Posted - 2008.09.16 07:25:00 -
[4150]
I spent the isk and I spent the time that I paid for to go as fast as I can. so when I go pop it hurts. I play this game to have fun and ccp takes it away from me at every turn. I pay for the time for my skills. so stop stealing my money. stop nrefing everything. I understand that you want more players and thats fine. but do it by bring new and better things in the game (ships...etc) but plz stop killing the game we all love. nomore nerfs
p.s if this nerf happens I'm done (I hate saying that)
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.09.17 21:59:00 -
[4151]
Originally by: gogeta23 I spent the isk and I spent the time that I paid for to go as fast as I can. so when I go pop it hurts. I play this game to have fun and ccp takes it away from me at every turn. I pay for the time for my skills. so stop stealing my money. stop nrefing everything. I understand that you want more players and thats fine. but do it by bring new and better things in the game (ships...etc) but plz stop killing the game we all love. nomore nerfs
p.s if this nerf happens I'm done (I hate saying that)
can i have your stuff?
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.09.17 21:59:00 -
[4152]
Originally by: gogeta23 I spent the isk and I spent the time that I paid for to go as fast as I can. so when I go pop it hurts. I play this game to have fun and ccp takes it away from me at every turn. I pay for the time for my skills. so stop stealing my money. stop nrefing everything. I understand that you want more players and thats fine. but do it by bring new and better things in the game (ships...etc) but plz stop killing the game we all love. nomore nerfs
p.s if this nerf happens I'm done (I hate saying that)
can i have your stuff?
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Commander Spectre
The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:29:00 -
[4153]
Gezz man...why don't ya just dump every ship in the game so we can all fly around in shuttles and not acually hurt eachother while yer at it? You guys really need to stuff that nerf bat and make stuff better instead of worse. What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
I say grow a set and if ppl don't like how fast or good another ship is then they can do what the rest of us do and train the skills for it instead of whining cuz they can't take out a whole fleet with a T1 frig and 1 mil SP.
I don't know what the hell is goin on out there at CCP but in must involve drugs and a bunch of Ghandi posters or somethin. Try getting a TV with the Spike channel and change yer drinks from passion fruit daqaris to good ol Budwieser or some other Amercian made beer will ya?
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Commander Spectre
The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:29:00 -
[4154]
Gezz man...why don't ya just dump every ship in the game so we can all fly around in shuttles and not acually hurt eachother while yer at it? You guys really need to stuff that nerf bat and make stuff better instead of worse. What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
I say grow a set and if ppl don't like how fast or good another ship is then they can do what the rest of us do and train the skills for it instead of whining cuz they can't take out a whole fleet with a T1 frig and 1 mil SP.
I don't know what the hell is goin on out there at CCP but in must involve drugs and a bunch of Ghandi posters or somethin. Try getting a TV with the Spike channel and change yer drinks from passion fruit daqaris to good ol Budwieser or some other Amercian made beer will ya?
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Naridos
Caldari Dawn of Fire
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Posted - 2008.09.18 06:35:00 -
[4155]
Originally by: Commander Spectre Gezz man...why don't ya just dump every ship in the game so we can all fly around in shuttles and not acually hurt eachother while yer at it? You guys really need to stuff that nerf bat and make stuff better instead of worse. What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
I say grow a set and if ppl don't like how fast or good another ship is then they can do what the rest of us do and train the skills for it instead of whining cuz they can't take out a whole fleet with a T1 frig and 1 mil SP.
I don't know what the hell is goin on out there at CCP but in must involve drugs and a bunch of Ghandi posters or somethin. Try getting a TV with the Spike channel and change yer drinks from passion fruit daqaris to good ol Budwieser or some other Amercian made beer will ya?
THIS!
I have to agree. The fact that some players that have been playing for years are now getting the crap end of some of these nerfs is a little upsetting. I have been training for over a year for some of these ships so I can nano them and such and now that this nerf is coming into effect I feel as if I have wasted my time with this game and my training time.
Quote: You Know you play too much Eve when you get into a car crash and you run away as fast as you can so that you don't get podded.
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Naridos
Caldari Dawn of Fire
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Posted - 2008.09.18 06:35:00 -
[4156]
Originally by: Commander Spectre Gezz man...why don't ya just dump every ship in the game so we can all fly around in shuttles and not acually hurt eachother while yer at it? You guys really need to stuff that nerf bat and make stuff better instead of worse. What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
I say grow a set and if ppl don't like how fast or good another ship is then they can do what the rest of us do and train the skills for it instead of whining cuz they can't take out a whole fleet with a T1 frig and 1 mil SP.
I don't know what the hell is goin on out there at CCP but in must involve drugs and a bunch of Ghandi posters or somethin. Try getting a TV with the Spike channel and change yer drinks from passion fruit daqaris to good ol Budwieser or some other Amercian made beer will ya?
THIS!
I have to agree. The fact that some players that have been playing for years are now getting the crap end of some of these nerfs is a little upsetting. I have been training for over a year for some of these ships so I can nano them and such and now that this nerf is coming into effect I feel as if I have wasted my time with this game and my training time.
Quote: You Know you play too much Eve when you get into a car crash and you run away as fast as you can so that you don't get podded.
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Hannibal218
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Posted - 2008.09.18 10:59:00 -
[4157]
lets pretend that missiles do 10% more damage yes?
so people who train missile say, haaa we are great pvpers, we control the engagement , we kill much more than die
and guys would train for missiles, because missiles are the best.
then people who dont use missiles start to complain that its not balanced and stuff, CCP holds an investigation and decides to nerf the missiles.
all the players who trained missiles will now complain that they are targeted only because they are good, and because other players dont know how to pvp.
now replace every instance of missiles with nano
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Hannibal218
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Posted - 2008.09.18 10:59:00 -
[4158]
lets pretend that missiles do 10% more damage yes?
so people who train missile say, haaa we are great pvpers, we control the engagement , we kill much more than die
and guys would train for missiles, because missiles are the best.
then people who dont use missiles start to complain that its not balanced and stuff, CCP holds an investigation and decides to nerf the missiles.
all the players who trained missiles will now complain that they are targeted only because they are good, and because other players dont know how to pvp.
now replace every instance of missiles with nano
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Commander Spectre
The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:34:00 -
[4159]
Edited by: Commander Spectre on 18/09/2008 12:39:45
Originally by: Hannibal218 lets pretend that missiles do 10% more damage yes?
so people who train missile say, haaa we are great pvpers, we control the engagement , we kill much more than die
and guys would train for missiles, because missiles are the best.
then people who dont use missiles start to complain that its not balanced and stuff, CCP holds an investigation and decides to nerf the missiles.
all the players who trained missiles will now complain that they are targeted only because they are good, and because other players dont know how to pvp.
now replace every instance of missiles with nano
Too late...that allready happened with missiles and nanos both :p
The thing is when this game was first conceived it was pretty much balanced. It's all the nerfs that are making it unbalanced cuz you nerf one thing then you gotta nerf everything else in some way to make it balanced.
If you want balance go balance yer checkbook...something that accually needs balancing. You want to make the game better then leave it alone. You allready nerfed nanos once and that should have been sufficient. Speed has allways been a big factor in any type of warfare. Why should it be different now? You don't need to make warp scrams an "I win" button. There is allready mobile warp bubbles, interdictors, and now even heavy interdictors. The only way to combat them is with speed and it doesn't allways work. So how is making a warp scram so powerful in any way adding balance?
This game is turning into a big nerf fest. I say nerf the nerf bat.
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Commander Spectre
The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:34:00 -
[4160]
Edited by: Commander Spectre on 18/09/2008 12:39:45
Originally by: Hannibal218 lets pretend that missiles do 10% more damage yes?
so people who train missile say, haaa we are great pvpers, we control the engagement , we kill much more than die
and guys would train for missiles, because missiles are the best.
then people who dont use missiles start to complain that its not balanced and stuff, CCP holds an investigation and decides to nerf the missiles.
all the players who trained missiles will now complain that they are targeted only because they are good, and because other players dont know how to pvp.
now replace every instance of missiles with nano
Too late...that allready happened with missiles and nanos both :p
The thing is when this game was first conceived it was pretty much balanced. It's all the nerfs that are making it unbalanced cuz you nerf one thing then you gotta nerf everything else in some way to make it balanced.
If you want balance go balance yer checkbook...something that accually needs balancing. You want to make the game better then leave it alone. You allready nerfed nanos once and that should have been sufficient. Speed has allways been a big factor in any type of warfare. Why should it be different now? You don't need to make warp scrams an "I win" button. There is allready mobile warp bubbles, interdictors, and now even heavy interdictors. The only way to combat them is with speed and it doesn't allways work. So how is making a warp scram so powerful in any way adding balance?
This game is turning into a big nerf fest. I say nerf the nerf bat.
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CoLe Blackblood
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:37:00 -
[4161]
With a scram boost, we will see blob vs blob rise. I am all for the nano nerf Mk II, but we already have infinite point HICs in-game, bubbles, WCS was nerfed awhile back, and 24km points added. Do we really need another way to lock people down?
Nanos were utilized to allow for more guerilla type warfare. You get webbed you die. With them nerfed into uselessness will a web nerf, plus scram boost be necessary?
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CoLe Blackblood
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:37:00 -
[4162]
With a scram boost, we will see blob vs blob rise. I am all for the nano nerf Mk II, but we already have infinite point HICs in-game, bubbles, WCS was nerfed awhile back, and 24km points added. Do we really need another way to lock people down?
Nanos were utilized to allow for more guerilla type warfare. You get webbed you die. With them nerfed into uselessness will a web nerf, plus scram boost be necessary?
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Naibasak
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Posted - 2008.09.18 23:50:00 -
[4163]
Sounds like a real good thing for PvP, but IÆm still terrified that deadspace rats are going to make my Republic Fleet Firetail make a nice blue flash on the first day its implemented |
Naibasak
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Posted - 2008.09.18 23:50:00 -
[4164]
Sounds like a real good thing for PvP, but IÆm still terrified that deadspace rats are going to make my Republic Fleet Firetail make a nice blue flash on the first day its implemented |
Kach Hot
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Posted - 2008.09.19 14:08:00 -
[4165]
Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:15:07 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:10:40 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:09:43 Ok so after 140+ posts we all know that nano nerf or balance (whateva you call it) is comming. However I am curious if nano tactic will survive that changes- still functional but more vulnerebale and skill depended or it will disappear from space forever. I am quite young in eve and since I have lunched it for first time I was facinated by the speed. Thats why I am minmatar, and thats why I wanted to fly in fast gangs. So tell me, CCP members, old pros, funs of nerf, and whiners: is nano, and fast gangs idea goin to die? As I wana know shall I buy Warhammer.
Lots of edits due to my dislectia keke
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Kach Hot
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Posted - 2008.09.19 14:08:00 -
[4166]
Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:33:42 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:15:07 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:10:40 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:09:43 Ok so after 140+ posts we all know that nano nerf or balance (whateva you call it) is comming. However I am curious if nano tactic will survive that changes- still functional but more vulnerebale and skill depended or it will disappear from space forever. I am quite young in eve and since I have lunched it for first time I was facinated by the speed. Thats why I am minmatar, and thats why I wanted to fly in fast gangs. So tell me, CCP members, old pros, funs of nerf, and whiners: is nano, and fast gangs idea goin to die? As I wana know shall I buy Warhammer.
Lots of edits due to my dislection keke
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:46:00 -
[4167]
Originally by: Kach Hot Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:33:42 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:15:07 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:10:40 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:09:43 Ok so after 140+ posts we all know that nano nerf or balance (whateva you call it) is comming. However I am curious if nano tactic will survive that changes- still functional but more vulnerebale and skill depended or it will disappear from space forever. I am quite young in eve and since I have lunched it for first time I was facinated by the speed. Thats why I am minmatar, and thats why I wanted to fly in fast gangs. So tell me, CCP members, old pros, funs of nerf, and whiners: is nano, and fast gangs idea goin to die? As I wana know shall I buy Warhammer.
Lots of edits due to my dislection keke
No it won't die. Nano isn't being made obsolete, its just being balanced to where the only ships that can do it, are ships that were designed from the ground up to do it. Also, the theoretical top end speed will go down for ALL ships, but at the same time, from what I read.. for ships that are supposed to be fast movers, it will be easier/cheaper to get going to a good clip.
So less speed for everyone, but easier to achieve very fast speed for those who trained ships which are supposed to go fast.
On the tactical side of things. It is being made simpler to combat against MWD ships. So you're going to see less MWD used in engagements. Instead, MWD and Nano are going to become niche roles. Very useful if fit out and used correctly, but also streamlined to whatever that purpose is. They'll become just like all the other T2 ships. Setup toward a specific role, and near useless outside of it. Overall this is a net gain for eve. It leads to more overall flexible, and strategic, thinking in engagements. Instead of "Bring a nano" you'll see more types of ships and setups used.
So you're going to be marginalized. It happens, and everyone with an ounce of sense should have seen it coming. But thats the way it works. And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to. Its impossible to playtest and factor every possible setup into games as complex as MMOs. So you get nerfs. UO did it, EQ did it, WoW does it, Eve does it, and Warhammer is going to by god do it too. Nerfs are part of the landscape of these games, and if you're going into it expecting never to be touched by a nerf.. well.. you my friend are going to be a very disappointed person.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:46:00 -
[4168]
Originally by: Kach Hot Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:33:42 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:15:07 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:10:40 Edited by: Kach Hot on 19/09/2008 14:09:43 Ok so after 140+ posts we all know that nano nerf or balance (whateva you call it) is comming. However I am curious if nano tactic will survive that changes- still functional but more vulnerebale and skill depended or it will disappear from space forever. I am quite young in eve and since I have lunched it for first time I was facinated by the speed. Thats why I am minmatar, and thats why I wanted to fly in fast gangs. So tell me, CCP members, old pros, funs of nerf, and whiners: is nano, and fast gangs idea goin to die? As I wana know shall I buy Warhammer.
Lots of edits due to my dislection keke
No it won't die. Nano isn't being made obsolete, its just being balanced to where the only ships that can do it, are ships that were designed from the ground up to do it. Also, the theoretical top end speed will go down for ALL ships, but at the same time, from what I read.. for ships that are supposed to be fast movers, it will be easier/cheaper to get going to a good clip.
So less speed for everyone, but easier to achieve very fast speed for those who trained ships which are supposed to go fast.
On the tactical side of things. It is being made simpler to combat against MWD ships. So you're going to see less MWD used in engagements. Instead, MWD and Nano are going to become niche roles. Very useful if fit out and used correctly, but also streamlined to whatever that purpose is. They'll become just like all the other T2 ships. Setup toward a specific role, and near useless outside of it. Overall this is a net gain for eve. It leads to more overall flexible, and strategic, thinking in engagements. Instead of "Bring a nano" you'll see more types of ships and setups used.
So you're going to be marginalized. It happens, and everyone with an ounce of sense should have seen it coming. But thats the way it works. And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to. Its impossible to playtest and factor every possible setup into games as complex as MMOs. So you get nerfs. UO did it, EQ did it, WoW does it, Eve does it, and Warhammer is going to by god do it too. Nerfs are part of the landscape of these games, and if you're going into it expecting never to be touched by a nerf.. well.. you my friend are going to be a very disappointed person.
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Johho Bulon
Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2008.09.20 07:35:00 -
[4169]
Originally by: Halycon Gamma
Originally by: Kach Hot
So you're going to be marginalized. It happens, and everyone with an ounce of sense should have seen it coming. But thats the way it works. And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to. Its impossible to playtest and factor every possible setup into games as complex as MMOs. So you get nerfs. UO did it, EQ did it, WoW does it, Eve does it, and Warhammer is going to by god do it too. Nerfs are part of the landscape of these games, and if you're going into it expecting never to be touched by a nerf.. well.. you my friend are going to be a very disappointed person.
It's all true what you say there, but I think in general Eve is the only game where the nerfs are so far reaching, and in general enormously unbalancing.
Here we have an entire package of nerfs, any one of which applied on its own would have been enough to make combat more dangerous for Nano fitted pilots, which combined, will crush the vast majority of combat viable nano setups.
And its always the same story, CCP could make a small adjustment week on week, watching the statistics and taking feedback until they achieve a balance, but instead they choose to utterly break one area of the game, as players understand it, at a time, and then say 'hey you guys! We fixed it for you.':
Originally by: CCP Nozh We are fully aware that such complex changes can have unforeseen results, especially since such an agglomeration of them is difficult to test without the participation of a large number of players. Thus, we urge you to log onto Singularity (our test server) this Monday, July 28TH to give them a spin and spare us no feedback or thoughts on these issues. We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
That some of the changes inflicted in this way may accidentally work out for the best should fool nobody, its a pretty poor way to balance the game and we deserve better. ---------------
Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway |
Johho Bulon
Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 07:35:00 -
[4170]
Originally by: Halycon Gamma
Originally by: Kach Hot
So you're going to be marginalized. It happens, and everyone with an ounce of sense should have seen it coming. But thats the way it works. And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to. Its impossible to playtest and factor every possible setup into games as complex as MMOs. So you get nerfs. UO did it, EQ did it, WoW does it, Eve does it, and Warhammer is going to by god do it too. Nerfs are part of the landscape of these games, and if you're going into it expecting never to be touched by a nerf.. well.. you my friend are going to be a very disappointed person.
It's all true what you say there, but I think in general Eve is the only game where the nerfs are so far reaching, and in general enormously unbalancing.
Here we have an entire package of nerfs, any one of which applied on its own would have been enough to make combat more dangerous for Nano fitted pilots, which combined, will crush the vast majority of combat viable nano setups.
And its always the same story, CCP could make a small adjustment week on week, watching the statistics and taking feedback until they achieve a balance, but instead they choose to utterly break one area of the game, as players understand it, at a time, and then say 'hey you guys! We fixed it for you.':
Originally by: CCP Nozh We are fully aware that such complex changes can have unforeseen results, especially since such an agglomeration of them is difficult to test without the participation of a large number of players. Thus, we urge you to log onto Singularity (our test server) this Monday, July 28TH to give them a spin and spare us no feedback or thoughts on these issues. We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
That some of the changes inflicted in this way may accidentally work out for the best should fool nobody, its a pretty poor way to balance the game and we deserve better. ---------------
Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway |
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:36:00 -
[4171]
Edited by: Shera Gron on 21/09/2008 11:45:48 I Havent read all posts, but i totally agree with many people here who are against a speed balance.
Thousands of pilots spend more than 150m ISK for ONE ship, just to avoid 0.0 dawling bubble camps and their blobs. They skilled months and months to optimize their vessels and now, because someone says "things do not work as intended", they're going to ruin everything. 150m. Its worth 2 1/2 BS, depending on what rigs ure using. If you're still complaining about nanos and their uberness use: recons, sentinels, ceptors with webs, nanos, neuts. I could go on with anti nano tactics, but i wont. And if you still use your caldari navi ***lord missiles and wonder why you dont hit anything, you failed. I know i know. If you are sitting for hours at a gate with nothing coming through and suddently you spot a nano gang jumping into your system with the fact that you WILL NOT BE ABLE to kill them youre getting pretty disapointed and start shouting out ZOMFG, nerf 'em!!!11 Tech2 Ammo gives you a high dmg output in short range, or a very high max range. Ive only seen a hand full pilots using tech2 missiles, precision in particular, and you wonder why the hell you dont hit them. So why the hell no ones uses tech2 missiles. penaltys, lack of skills? Hrm. fix em! and do not nerf nano. Give those cakes different tactics to shoot nanos. Well, actually we allready have a dozen.
I do not want a game where 0.0 becomes a static me+x against you = win blobbing fights. Sure, we can do PvP in 0.0 with blobs and 50+ ship camps where you get lagged out for several minutes and have enough time to set up water for your tasty coffee. I dont want such a 0.0. If polys wouldnt be such expensive as they are now it might be an argument for nerfing speed. But they're not.
So imo there are only two possibilities. Fixing tech2 Missiles in their penalties and beating the **** out of ppl to use them against nanos and setup more specific gangs with many roles. Arazus, Rapiers, Sentinels and stuff. Just for your survivability. OR Nerfing nanos, thinking about new ideas for our shiny lagged out 0.0 fights, fixing missiles, thinking about new tactics for small roaming gangs, fixing the materials for polys, double the salvage of alloyed trit bars, or cutting their requirement for poly bpos to 1/3, watching the market to collapse, people getting dissapointed and EVE becoming a F1 to F8 game where you are able to play with one hand on your keyboard and the other one hugging the beer can.
just my two cents. Nanos are fine, learn to play and use your setup well!
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:36:00 -
[4172]
Edited by: Shera Gron on 21/09/2008 12:56:13 Edited by: Shera Gron on 21/09/2008 12:54:55 Edited by: Shera Gron on 21/09/2008 11:53:23 I Havent read all posts, but i totally agree with many people here who are against a speed balance.
Thousands of pilots spend more than 150m ISK for ONE ship, just to avoid 0.0 dawling bubble camps and their blobs. They skilled months and months to optimize their vessels and now, because someone says "things do not work as intended", they're going to ruin everything. 150m. Its worth 2 1/2 BS, depending on what rigs ure using. If you're still complaining about nanos and their uberness use: recons, sentinels, ceptors with webs, nanos, neuts. I could go on with anti nano tactics, but i wont. And if you still use your caldari navi ***lord missiles and wonder why you dont hit anything, you failed. I know i know. If you are sitting for hours at a gate with nothing coming through and suddently you spot a nano gang jumping into your system with the fact that you WILL NOT BE ABLE to kill them youre getting pretty disapointed and start shouting out ZOMFG, nerf 'em!!!11 Tech2 Ammo gives you a high dmg output in short range, or a very high max range. Ive only seen a hand full pilots using tech2 missiles, precision in particular, and you wonder why the hell you dont hit them. So why the hell no ones uses tech2 missiles. penaltys, lack of skills? Hrm. fix em! and do not nerf nano. Give those cakes different tactics to shoot nanos. Well, actually we allready have a dozen.
I do not want a game where 0.0 becomes a static me+x against you = win blobbing fights. Sure, we can do PvP in 0.0 with blobs and 50+ ship camps where you get lagged out for several minutes and have enough time to set up water for your tasty coffee. I dont want such a 0.0. If polys wouldnt be such expensive as they are now it might be an argument for nerfing speed. But they're not.
So imo there are only two possibilities. Fixing tech2 Missiles in their penalties and beating the **** out of ppl to use them against nanos and setup more specific gangs with many roles, if they're not willing to pay hundred of million ISK for nanos. Arazus, Rapiers, Sentinels and stuff. Just for your survivability. OR Nerfing nanos, thinking about new ideas for our shiny lagged out 0.0 fights, fixing missiles, thinking about new tactics for small roaming gangs, fixing the materials for polys, double the salvage of alloyed trit bars, or cutting their requirement for poly bpos to 1/3, watching the market to collapse, people getting dissapointed and EVE becoming a F1 to F8 game where you are able to play with one hand on your keyboard and the other one hugging the beer can. The young and sporty Matar becomes a grandpa and telling storys starting with: "once upon a time..."
just my two cent. Nanos are fine, learn to play and use your setup well!
Quote: No it won't die. Nano isn't being made obsolete, its just being balanced to where the only ships that can do it, are ships that were designed from the ground up to do it. Also, the theoretical top end speed will go down for ALL ships, but at the same time, from what I read.. for ships that are supposed to be fast movers, it will be easier/cheaper to get going to a good clip.
Oh dear, an eft nano expert. So tell me, what ship types ure talking about? A vagabond is made for speed. it becomes useless. A stabber is made for Speed. Useless. Ishtars can tank, but also nano. useless. Zealot can tank and nano. useless. Oh well, my frigate and AF will do 5k/s. nice. But the only thing i can to with it is circling arround and making left turns cause i have NO tank. Speed yeah, but my turrets have a ~8km range including falloff. Ships that are not designed to ne nanoed are BS. nothing else. If you nano a rupture. its your problem. Hacs are still cruisers with a pity buffer which could get melted by a t1 fitted rifter within a minute, since the HAC does 0m/s. What ships are intended to be nano? Frigates, aha.
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.09.21 13:38:00 -
[4173]
Quote: And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to
apples and peaches, dude. If something gets overpowered or pretty mighty in every other MMO you grind NPCs with friends to hit the lvl cap within a few days. Then you'll need gear.... and grind for it. In EVE you have to skill another 90d AND earn the 150m ISK to buy THIS ship with THIS fitting which you can lose if getting tackled. Waste of time and money. in WoW or Warhammer no one can take ur stuff and it even doesnt take 1/8 of EVE time to get this specific character and gear. AND the Market (trader, producer) doent suffer.
comparing EVE with WoW, Warhammer, Age of conan is epic... fail.
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.09.21 13:38:00 -
[4174]
Edited by: Shera Gron on 22/09/2008 00:22:03
Edited by: Shera Gron on 21/09/2008 13:48:39
Quote: And you'll get the same thing in any MMO you ever move to
apples and peaches, dude. This is bloddy serious. I mean... it's not a 'we chanced sum lights and colourz on ur ship, rooxx!' A daring change for PvP.
If something gets overpowered or pretty mighty in every other MMO you grind NPCs with friends to hit the lvl cap within a few days. Then you'll need gear.... and grind for it. In EVE you have to skill another +90d AND earn the 150m ISK to buy THIS ship with THIS fitting which you can lose if getting tackled. (Im not talking about invulnerability - just stupidity or good opponent) Waste of time and money? Nope. in WoW or Warhammer no one can take ur stuff and it even doesnt take 1/8 of EVE time to get this specific character and gear. AND the Market (trader, producer) doesnt suffer. comparing EVE with WoW, Warhammer, Age of conan is epic... fail.
For sure, it titans were nano'ble... lord. But we're talking about a Cruiser class hull flown by ppl putting expensive polys in it and using snaked which are more expensive. Pod them! :D they should not be invulnerable, but fast.. enough. Every time you kill a nano, a sailor gets a heart attack. Im ok with scramlers deactivating mwds. +1 anti nano. well.. yes.
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Roberto Edwardo
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Posted - 2008.09.21 14:10:00 -
[4175]
Edited by: Roberto Edwardo on 21/09/2008 14:13:49 Wasn't it said that they tried to buff missile speeds, but the physics engine acted strange at such high speeds? You would have them redesign the physics engine so you can go fast? Simplest solutions are the best, nerf the speed. While I would normally agree with buffing things, not nerfing, this situation seems a little different. |
Roberto Edwardo
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Posted - 2008.09.21 14:10:00 -
[4176]
Edited by: Roberto Edwardo on 21/09/2008 14:13:49 Wasn't it said that they tried to buff missile speeds, but the physics engine acted strange at such high speeds? You would have them redesign the physics engine so you can go fast? Simplest solutions are the best, nerf the speed. While I would normally agree with buffing things, not nerfing, this situation seems a little different. |
Sovereign Society
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Posted - 2008.09.21 15:56:00 -
[4177]
Edited by: Sovereign Society on 21/09/2008 15:59:16 It's always ridiculous when game creators nerf items, if you are going for any sort of realism than it doesn't make sense at all. I would rather see new items created to counterbalance the other items that apparently CCP wants to nerf.
I just created my 3rd alt that I pay for, I think I regret it now.
I have been playing since 2004 so thanks for the kick in the a**.
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Sovereign Society
Sanitized Souls
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Posted - 2008.09.21 15:56:00 -
[4178]
Edited by: Sovereign Society on 21/09/2008 15:59:16 It's always ridiculous when game creators nerf items, if you are going for any sort of realism than it doesn't make sense at all. I would rather see new items created to counterbalance the other items that apparently CCP wants to nerf.
I just created my 3rd alt that I pay for, I think I regret it now.
I have been playing since 2004 so thanks for the kick in the a**. ---- Want to setup a corp/alliance website, killboard, or forum? Sign up for webhosting here! |
Valescar
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Posted - 2008.09.21 23:47:00 -
[4179]
Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
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Valescar
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Posted - 2008.09.21 23:47:00 -
[4180]
Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
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Knocturnal
Infusion. G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.22 07:55:00 -
[4181]
Originally by: Valescar Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
yeah damn us for paying 3.5b for those hg snakes and shitloads of isk for the otherstuff. Oh and huginn and rapier have a role in this to..
F*ck Derek we got Xlop. |
Knocturnal
Infusion. G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.22 07:55:00 -
[4182]
Originally by: Valescar Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
yeah damn us for paying 3.5b for those hg snakes and shitloads of isk for the otherstuff. Oh and huginn and rapier have a role in this to..
F*ck Derek we got Xlop. |
dsfyxdg23 32
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Posted - 2008.09.23 05:17:00 -
[4183]
Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:22:07 Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:20:56 Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:20:05 If the snakes wouldnt grant invulnerability, they wouldnt be that expensive. And atm there is no possible way to counter that fast flying ships. Which is a strange thing. Cause ppl who can build ships flying 13km/s, should be able to build turrets that can track these ships!?
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dsfyxdg23 32
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Posted - 2008.09.23 05:17:00 -
[4184]
Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:22:07 Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:20:56 Edited by: dsfyxdg23 32 on 23/09/2008 05:20:05 If the snakes wouldnt grant invulnerability, they wouldnt be that expensive. And atm there is no possible way to counter that fast flying ships. Which is a strange thing. Cause ppl who can build ships flying 13km/s, should be able to build turrets that can track these ships!?
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.09.23 08:17:00 -
[4185]
Edited by: Strill on 23/09/2008 08:17:58
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
You realize that it's several billion isk for the snake set, and another 300 million for the T2 rigs right? That's worth several carriers or a full set of named modules. No special named modules etc...ya right.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.09.23 08:17:00 -
[4186]
Edited by: Strill on 23/09/2008 08:17:58
Originally by: CCP Dionysus
Vagabond: High: nothing Med: 10mn microwarpdrive Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2
Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2
Implants. full snake set.
No special named modules etc.
You realize that it's several billion isk for the snake set, and another 300 million for the T2 rigs right? That's worth several carriers or a full set of named modules. No special named modules etc...ya right.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.24 11:08:00 -
[4187]
Edited by: lecrotta on 24/09/2008 11:11:19 Edited by: lecrotta on 24/09/2008 11:08:07
Originally by: Valescar Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
Invulnerability does not exist in eve unless you stay docked.
NANO gives a good tank when left untackled, but when tackled nano ships melt so instead of turning pvp into pve and wanting players to behave like npc's and sit still so you can shoot them i suggest you work on your team work skills cos my mains corp/alliance find killing nano gangs highly entertaining and the best form of pvp in the game.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.24 11:08:00 -
[4188]
Edited by: lecrotta on 24/09/2008 11:11:19 Edited by: lecrotta on 24/09/2008 11:08:07
Originally by: Valescar Flying fast is a good thing. But Invulnerability is not. That needs a change. Easy solution: no more snake implants.
Invulnerability does not exist in eve unless you stay docked.
NANO gives a good tank when left untackled, but when tackled nano ships melt so instead of turning pvp into pve and wanting players to behave like npc's and sit still so you can shoot them i suggest you work on your team work skills cos my mains corp/alliance find killing nano gangs highly entertaining and the best form of pvp in the game.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Necroth
Smoke and Fly Academy Roids'Are'Us
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Posted - 2008.09.25 12:17:00 -
[4189]
So from now, you'll need rapiers AND arazus for stoping nano users... IMHO, these changes add complexity to possible fittings but finally boost than nerf the nano gangs. Now that web will be nerfed, long range webbers will be less dangerous, and long range scramblers will be TEH danger ! Why not, but the matar recons are crying...
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Necroth
Smoke and Fly Academy Roids'Are'Us
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Posted - 2008.09.25 12:17:00 -
[4190]
So from now, you'll need rapiers AND arazus for stoping nano users... IMHO, these changes add complexity to possible fittings but finally boost than nerf the nano gangs. Now that web will be nerfed, long range webbers will be less dangerous, and long range scramblers will be TEH danger ! Why not, but the matar recons are crying...
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Mecanos
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:29:00 -
[4191]
things are ok the way they work ,,, u can nerf a bit teh nanos,, so indeed the other huls make appearance in fleets at last.. but dont take it to far gyus.
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Mecanos
Caldari En plo
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:29:00 -
[4192]
things are ok the way they work ,,, u can nerf a bit teh nanos,, so indeed the other huls make appearance in fleets at last.. but dont take it to far gyus.
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General Fortel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 21:17:00 -
[4193]
all this speed nerf is for is to make it easier for BoB, as most of u shud know, most of ccp members have alts in BoB and they change the game to make BoB unbeatable, which ruins the game for everyone else, great tactics there ccp, thats gonna make people play more....learn to make the game more fair....nano fleets are easy to kill, its called tactics and a brain....not nerf to make it easier for u lot, BoB will fall, and i will laugh at ccp when they do thanks for listening, have fun ruining the game
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General Fortel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 21:17:00 -
[4194]
all this speed nerf is for is to make it easier for BoB, as most of u shud know, most of ccp members have alts in BoB and they change the game to make BoB unbeatable, which ruins the game for everyone else, great tactics there ccp, thats gonna make people play more....learn to make the game more fair....nano fleets are easy to kill, its called tactics and a brain....not nerf to make it easier for u lot, BoB will fall, and i will laugh at ccp when they do thanks for listening, have fun ruining the game
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General Fortel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 21:20:00 -
[4195]
**** easy way to shit on nano fleets, stealth bombers and bombs, or a nice titan to finish them off, also, jamming might help, and being able to get an effective remote rep tank system for a fleet, then it's **** easy, u lot are too lazy for that in ccp, u just decide to nerf it to save ur selves some time....
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General Fortel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 21:20:00 -
[4196]
**** easy way to shit on nano fleets, stealth bombers and bombs, or a nice titan to finish them off, also, jamming might help, and being able to get an effective remote rep tank system for a fleet, then it's **** easy, u lot are too lazy for that in ccp, u just decide to nerf it to save ur selves some time....
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Vixel
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.09.27 03:48:00 -
[4197]
I'm glad CCP is taking a good hard look at this now. These changes are for the better... they make the game the way it was meant to be played. Allowing small agile things to go crazy fast and bigger things to go slower. its the natural law of life here. If your big and huge you will probably go slow, but if you are quick and agile you will go fast... makes complete sense to me. And imo HACS deserve the nerf. 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses. They are much to expensive because they are so effecient, if you lower the overall effeciency and balance them so they fill their appropriate niche in EVE, the prices on them will drop, Poly Carb prices will drop, and people will be happy. The players will adapt... most will claim to leave them game and won't, its normal EVE for you. |
Vixel
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.09.27 03:48:00 -
[4198]
I'm glad CCP is taking a good hard look at this now. These changes are for the better... they make the game the way it was meant to be played. Allowing small agile things to go crazy fast and bigger things to go slower. its the natural law of life here. If your big and huge you will probably go slow, but if you are quick and agile you will go fast... makes complete sense to me. And imo HACS deserve the nerf. 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses. They are much to expensive because they are so effecient, if you lower the overall effeciency and balance them so they fill their appropriate niche in EVE, the prices on them will drop, Poly Carb prices will drop, and people will be happy. The players will adapt... most will claim to leave them game and won't, its normal EVE for you. |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:20:00 -
[4199]
Edited by: Murina on 27/09/2008 12:22:36
Originally by: Vixel Allowing small agile things to go crazy fast and bigger things to go slower.
Titan mothership carrier dreadnought battleship battle cruiser cruiser destroyer frigate
Hey look cruisers are the third smallest ship class in the game and just like destroyers and frigates they need speed to be useful.
Originally by: Vixel 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses.
30 idiots will always lose to 20 skilled pvpers no matter what ships they are flying. If my mains corp had been flying those 30 BS we would have lost none and killed plenty of the hacs if they had been stupid enough to engage us.
Still i suppose your experiences are from MM so if you cannot drop a blob on it or nap it i suppose your out of your comfort zone.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:20:00 -
[4200]
Edited by: Murina on 28/09/2008 13:32:47
Originally by: Vixel Allowing small agile things to go crazy fast and bigger things to go slower.
Titan mothership carrier dreadnought battleship battle cruiser cruiser destroyer frigate
Hey look cruisers are the third smallest combat ship class in the game and just like destroyers and frigates they need speed to be useful because unlike the larger and slower classes they do not have the hp buffer to survive or be effectively RR'd.
Originally by: Vixel 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses.
30 idiots will always lose to 20 skilled pvpers no matter what ships they are flying. If my mains corp had been flying those 30 BS we would have lost none and killed plenty of the hacs if they had been stupid enough to engage us.
Still your experiences are from MM so if you cannot drop a blob on it or nap it i suppose you are a little out of your comfort zone.
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Baaz Vinashak
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:44:00 -
[4201]
I like the idea of curbing ludicrous speeds. But maybe a mod nerf isnÆt the only way?
Remember how all those aircraft trying to break the sound barrier experienced turbulence, loss of control, airframe damage and even breaking apart in mid flight? Take a page out of the history of flying.
Instead of nerfing mods, why could you not introduce a factor of tolerance for speed, beyond which the ships will suffer a negative impact on their structure?
Start by setting a max speed tolerance base value. LetÆs say that is = Base speed of ship X Max speed multiplier of the Microwarpdrive being used. (The logic being the higher meta level MWDs give the ship more stability or some other decent reason). None of the mods or rigs fitted on the ship have any impact on on this base value.
As ships exceed this base value they start taking structural damage at a rate which increases exponentially as speed goes up. The rate of damage should be linked to the mass of ship itself, so ships continue to have the inherent advantages of lower mass for higher speed (e.g Stabber) which is what CCP designed them for in the first place.
So what this gives you is a ship taking increased damage to structure as they accelerate beyond their base tolerance speed, but still allowing the pilot to make a calculated decision on how much structural damage he is willing to take in return for the temporary increase above his ships base tolerance speed. At sustained speeds exceeding the base tolerance speed, the ship will fall apart over time (say a minute or a few). Like car speedometers, you could have a ôredö bar on the speed indicator which tells the pilot he is above his tolerance zone.
Also, you could simply extend the same logic used for overloading a mod and the heat damage caused, except that this is over-speeding and structure suffers turbulence damage (which nanite paste cant repair!).
Summary: 1. Each ship has a speed tolerance value linked to its mass and base speed (you could throw in assembled volume to complicate this a bit) 2. Beyond this speed, ships suffer damage to structure, which increases exponentially as speed goes up
Result: Speed remains a viable game mechanism, it just cant be sustained for more than a reasonable period of time.
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Baaz Vinashak
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:44:00 -
[4202]
I like the idea of curbing ludicrous speeds. But maybe a mod nerf isnÆt the only way?
Remember how all those aircraft trying to break the sound barrier experienced turbulence, loss of control, airframe damage and even breaking apart in mid flight? Take a page out of the history of flying.
Instead of nerfing mods, why could you not introduce a factor of tolerance for speed, beyond which the ships will suffer a negative impact on their structure?
Start by setting a max speed tolerance base value. LetÆs say that is = Base speed of ship X Max speed multiplier of the Microwarpdrive being used. (The logic being the higher meta level MWDs give the ship more stability or some other decent reason). None of the mods or rigs fitted on the ship have any impact on on this base value.
As ships exceed this base value they start taking structural damage at a rate which increases exponentially as speed goes up. The rate of damage should be linked to the mass of ship itself, so ships continue to have the inherent advantages of lower mass for higher speed (e.g Stabber) which is what CCP designed them for in the first place.
So what this gives you is a ship taking increased damage to structure as they accelerate beyond their base tolerance speed, but still allowing the pilot to make a calculated decision on how much structural damage he is willing to take in return for the temporary increase above his ships base tolerance speed. At sustained speeds exceeding the base tolerance speed, the ship will fall apart over time (say a minute or a few). Like car speedometers, you could have a ôredö bar on the speed indicator which tells the pilot he is above his tolerance zone.
Also, you could simply extend the same logic used for overloading a mod and the heat damage caused, except that this is over-speeding and structure suffers turbulence damage (which nanite paste cant repair!).
Summary: 1. Each ship has a speed tolerance value linked to its mass and base speed (you could throw in assembled volume to complicate this a bit) 2. Beyond this speed, ships suffer damage to structure, which increases exponentially as speed goes up
Result: Speed remains a viable game mechanism, it just cant be sustained for more than a reasonable period of time.
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Onyx Celestia
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Posted - 2008.10.02 22:56:00 -
[4203]
Any ETA on when the speed nerfs are actually coming now?
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Onyx Celestia
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Posted - 2008.10.02 22:56:00 -
[4204]
Any ETA on when the speed nerfs are actually coming now?
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TordenSkiold
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Posted - 2008.10.04 12:56:00 -
[4205]
It is incredible to se how narrow minded so many of the nano cruiser pilots can be. It's like pure logic and common sense does not apply.
In this dev blog very good arguments (pro-nerf) have been identified and presented in an easy-to-understand way.
Yet egotisitc, self-centered and very subjective arguements are trown back again and again by nano cruiser pilots.
Guys, this isn't just about your game. It's about everyone's game.
Of course CCP could instead give ludicrous tracking speeds, turret optimals, missile speeds and flight times to counter this (thus avoiding a nerf). But then the whole game would become ludicrous, right?
It should be clear to most that any tactic or fitting philosophy that is "invincible" does not contribute to the game as a whole.
And an attempt to make ABs a viable option for PvP set-ups should be most welcomed.
I am convinced that after this nerf small gang pvp will be more frequent, more varied and more fun.
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TordenSkiold
Gallente ACE'S OVER 8'S
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Posted - 2008.10.04 12:56:00 -
[4206]
It is incredible to se how narrow minded so many of the nano cruiser pilots can be. It's like pure logic and common sense does not apply.
In this dev blog very good arguments (pro-nerf) have been identified and presented in an easy-to-understand way.
Yet egotisitc, self-centered and very subjective arguements are trown back again and again by nano cruiser pilots.
Guys, this isn't just about your game. It's about everyone's game.
Of course CCP could instead give ludicrous tracking speeds, turret optimals, missile speeds and flight times to counter this (thus avoiding a nerf). But then the whole game would become ludicrous, right?
It should be clear to most that any tactic or fitting philosophy that is "invincible" does not contribute to the game as a whole.
And an attempt to make ABs a viable option for PvP set-ups should be most welcomed.
I am convinced that after this nerf small gang pvp will be more frequent, more varied and more fun.
- ---
Enough is never enough... |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.05 15:08:00 -
[4207]
Originally by: TordenSkiold
Of course CCP could instead give ludicrous tracking speeds, turret optimals, missile speeds and flight times to counter this (thus avoiding a nerf). But then the whole game would become ludicrous, right?
Are you a mission runner???..because you seem to think that their are no counters to nano in the game and that turret/missile speeds need buffing or speed needs nerfing because of this?.
Here is a clue and a list pal:-
Webs (already here) Nuets (already here) MWD killing scram (developed and ready to be implemented) Regularly dropped (by rats) BS sized web (on wish list)
My mains alliance fly varied types of gang styles (including NANO) and against varied forms of gangs (including NANO) and we have no problem killing the NANO gangs or any other as its a matter of teamwork, preparation and piloting skill.
All i have seen from pro nerfits is:-
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA my missiles/guns wont hit i wanna kill stuff without needing to tackle it..... NANO to hard nerf nerf....
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.05 15:08:00 -
[4208]
Edited by: Murina on 05/10/2008 19:15:34
Originally by: TordenSkiold In this dev blog very good arguments (pro-nerf) have been identified and presented in an easy-to-understand way.
The only arguments i have seen from pro nerfits are "WWWWAAAAA my missile spam cannot kill NANO unless its tackled, i do not wanna have tackle to kill i wanna just spam dps.....NERF NERF WWWAAA".
Originally by: TordenSkiold
Of course CCP could instead give ludicrous tracking speeds, turret optimals, missile speeds and flight times to counter this (thus avoiding a nerf). But then the whole game would become ludicrous, right?
Are you a mission runner???..because you seem to think that their are no counters to nano in the game and that turret/missile speeds need buffing or speed needs nerfing because of this?.
Here is a clue and a list pal:-
Webs (already here) Nuets (already here) MWD killing scram (developed and ready to be implemented) Regularly dropped (by rats) BS sized web (on wish list)
My mains alliance fly varied types of gang styles (including NANO) and against varied forms of gangs (including NANO) and we have no problem killing the NANO gangs or any other as its a matter of teamwork, preparation and piloting skill.
Originally by: TordenSkiold It should be clear to most that any tactic or fitting philosophy that is "invincible" does not contribute to the game as a whole.
What is clear is that you have no idea about NANO or pvp if you consider it "invincible".
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Imnar Blade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:18:00 -
[4209]
This may or may not have been already answered, but I'm not going to wade through 140+ pages of posts to find out.
In the DevBlog something was mentioned about changing some implant slots about. So what happens to implants I already have fitted in my head if this is done?
Am I going to be locked in station until I remove (ie. destroy) implants I spent 80m and 80k LP each on?
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Imnar Blade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:18:00 -
[4210]
This may or may not have been already answered, but I'm not going to wade through 140+ pages of posts to find out.
In the DevBlog something was mentioned about changing some implant slots about. So what happens to implants I already have fitted in my head if this is done?
Am I going to be locked in station until I remove (ie. destroy) implants I spent 80m and 80k LP each on?
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Furion iV
Minmatar Shadow Incursion The Church.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 00:41:00 -
[4211]
Why don't ccp just increase the velocity of the explosion from missiles to a high speed. Means that smaller ships can outrun the missiles but if they get hit, they take damage.
Same for these so called Ultra Nano***ged ships reaching 92kms-1+ vagabonds ( I got that in EFT so it must be possible to make a pvp fitting with it in game!); if you slow down, even if only for a split second, you will get damaged. Will remove the invunrability that the high end nano ships have whilst largly not affecting the standard nano's. In regards to the tracking of guns, have you ever tried simply sniping them? If they are as fast as you claim, they will be paper thin and so could be alpha'd by some ships.
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Furion iV
Minmatar Shadow Incursion The Church.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 00:41:00 -
[4212]
Why don't ccp just increase the velocity of the explosion from missiles to a high speed. Means that smaller ships can outrun the missiles but if they get hit, they take damage.
Same for these so called Ultra Nano***ged ships reaching 92kms-1+ vagabonds ( I got that in EFT so it must be possible to make a pvp fitting with it in game!); if you slow down, even if only for a split second, you will get damaged. Will remove the invunrability that the high end nano ships have whilst largly not affecting the standard nano's. In regards to the tracking of guns, have you ever tried simply sniping them? If they are as fast as you claim, they will be paper thin and so could be alpha'd by some ships.
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 10:22:00 -
[4213]
Hmmmm... with the proposed changes to Webs i can see a lot of people getting back to gates/stations before u can kill em. More targets escaping ftl.
Yet again i feel the long way around option has been taken here. Wouldn't a simpler solution have been better like giving a webber & webber drones an accuracy falloff??
A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km :
10km 100% 11km 90% 12km 80% 13km 70% 14km 60% 15km 50% 16km 40% 17km 30% 18km 20% 19km 10%
Overheat
13km 100% 14km 90% 15km 80% 16km 70% 17km 60% 18km 50% 19km 40% 20km 30% 21km 20% 22km 10%
Now i aint saying 5k falloff should be the set limit i just use 5k as an example more math would have to be done to find a ballance i'd say
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 10:22:00 -
[4214]
Edited by: Antdung on 07/10/2008 11:18:01 Hmmmm... with the proposed changes to Webs i can see a lot of people getting back to gates/stations before u can kill em.
A web with a 50% reduction on a target still traveling at 2000m/s means a tackler get oh about 15 seconds holding time before the target jumps through the gate laughing.. The changes seem more focussed on stopping the damage dealing nanno boats but i honestly don't think enough thought has been placed into everyday tackling.
Yet again i feel the long way around option has been taken here. Wouldn't a simpler solution have been better like giving a webber & webber drones an accuracy falloff??
A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km :
10km 100% 11km 90% 12km 80% 13km 70% 14km 60% 15km 50% 16km 40% 17km 30% 18km 20% 19km 10%
Overheat
13km 100% 14km 90% 15km 80% 16km 70% 17km 60% 18km 50% 19km 40% 20km 30% 21km 20% 22km 10%
Now i aint saying 5k falloff should be the set limit i just use 5k as an example more math would have to be done to find a ballance i'd say
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:53:00 -
[4215]
Ok so i've had a very good point about my suggestion made.. the lag caused by constant recalculation of Velocity reduction at different ranges would be too intense.
However i've had a lot of positive feedback about web range v's velocity reduction and a good suggestion was made about scripted webs
sort of:
10km - 90% 12.5 - 75% 15km - 50% 17.5 - 25% or somethin along those lines.
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:53:00 -
[4216]
Ok so i've had a very good point about my suggestion made.. the lag caused by constant recalculation of Velocity reduction at different ranges would be too intense.
However i've had a lot of positive feedback about web range v's velocity reduction and a good suggestion was made about scripted webs
sort of:
10km - 90% 12.5 - 75% 15km - 50% 17.5 - 25% or somethin along those lines.
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kronos blackstar
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:32:00 -
[4217]
these changes are no less than an epic fail , for people that are tired of the capital war and the mass blob fights of 600-1000 , nano is the only way to do anything as a small corp vs the larger ones . the only way this is going to help eve is be makeing people leave the game ,since they dont want to blob or live in empire so less people less blob is the only thing postive i can see about this change.
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kronos blackstar
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:32:00 -
[4218]
these changes are no less than an epic fail , for people that are tired of the capital war and the mass blob fights of 600-1000 , nano is the only way to do anything as a small corp vs the larger ones . the only way this is going to help eve is be makeing people leave the game ,since they dont want to blob or live in empire so less people less blob is the only thing postive i can see about this change.
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Gun Gun
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:25:00 -
[4219]
in regard to the problem of speed-ships outrunning the missiles: why dont't you introduce some defensive measure modules that would affect missiles' agility and thus offer smaller ships to outmaneuver the missiles with better agility?
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Gun Gun
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:25:00 -
[4220]
in regard to the problem of speed-ships outrunning the missiles: why dont't you introduce some defensive measure modules that would affect missiles' agility and thus offer smaller ships to outmaneuver the missiles with better agility?
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clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.08 21:43:00 -
[4221]
Quote: We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
At least half of that was true. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.08 21:43:00 -
[4222]
Quote: We're allocating a long time (a month or more) to oversee the changes because we are open to further tweaks, based on your suggestions.
At least half of that was true. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:31:00 -
[4223]
Better get working on that stackless python ccp so you can reinforce nodes faster.
Blobby POS wars is all you got left now in 0.0
I don't know how deranged the fan bois are that say you can hunt in 0.0 with rr BS, but here's a clue.
Cyno up...carrier blob in. You all die. Can't wait for this "new" style of combat
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Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:31:00 -
[4224]
Better get working on that stackless python ccp so you can reinforce nodes faster.
Blobby POS wars is all you got left now in 0.0
I don't know how deranged the fan bois are that say you can hunt in 0.0 with rr BS, but here's a clue.
Cyno up...carrier blob in. You all die. Can't wait for this "new" style of combat
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Danthomir
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Posted - 2008.10.09 04:01:00 -
[4225]
The one thing we can be ABSOLUTELY DEAD SURE about, is that blobs will rule. This isn't new - but will they rule more than usual?
Speed currently lets you run through camps. What'll happen when these changes go in?
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Danthomir
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Posted - 2008.10.09 04:01:00 -
[4226]
The one thing we can be ABSOLUTELY DEAD SURE about, is that blobs will rule. This isn't new - but will they rule more than usual?
Speed currently lets you run through camps. What'll happen when these changes go in?
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:06:00 -
[4227]
From all the nerfs and "rebalances" that ccp ever did this one left me pretty much speechless. I never flew a proper nano ship, all of my ships have trimark rigs, and I feel absolutely staggered by amount of self-countering changes and nonsense that this will bring. I sincerely hoped it's never done but now I somehow doubt it. "Nano nerf" has turned into a global nerf and severe shift of just about every rule and mechanic we knew in this game that seem to seriously threaten basic gameplay for anyone who's not a part of a 200 man BOB/AAA/GOON/whatever fleets where what you are flying and doing is unimportant anyway and, as Evil Thug said once long ago, even a pre-boost apoc with 6 tachs is considered a good ship.
Oh and btw, nerfing speed than nerfing missiles and drones to compensate, way to go, smart as hell.
P.S. Medium pulse lasers with scorch have no problem hitting nano cruisers even now, so please nerf that too. And add a drawback or 2 to hail and void while youre at it please, they are overpowered especially with the brilliant new 60% web. Something like -75% armor and shield amount, -75% armor and shield resists. Per gun. And -90% to web efficiency or something, that would balance stuff.
Question: do you people ever play this game? Seriously asking.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:06:00 -
[4228]
From all the nerfs and "rebalances" that ccp ever did this one left me pretty much speechless. I never flew a proper nano ship, all of my ships have trimark rigs, and I feel absolutely staggered by amount of self-countering changes and nonsense that this will bring. I sincerely hoped it's never done but now I somehow doubt it. "Nano nerf" has turned into a global nerf and severe shift of just about every rule and mechanic we knew in this game that seem to seriously threaten basic gameplay for anyone who's not a part of a 200 man BOB/AAA/GOON/whatever fleets where what you are flying and doing is unimportant anyway and, as Evil Thug said once long ago, even a pre-boost apoc with 6 tachs is considered a good ship.
Oh and btw, nerfing speed than nerfing missiles and drones to compensate, way to go, smart as hell.
P.S. Medium pulse lasers with scorch have no problem hitting nano cruisers even now, so please nerf that too. And add a drawback or 2 to hail and void while youre at it please, they are overpowered especially with the brilliant new 60% web. Something like -75% armor and shield amount, -75% armor and shield resists. Per gun. And -90% to web efficiency or something, that would balance stuff.
Question: do you people ever play this game? Seriously asking.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:41:00 -
[4229]
Originally by: Vixel 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses.
And they won't (unless it's 20 TRI HACs against 30 MM battleships). In normal circumstances those BSes will decimate nano HACs.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:41:00 -
[4230]
Originally by: Vixel 20 HACS should not be able to take out 30 battleships and get away with maybe 3-4 losses.
And they won't (unless it's 20 TRI HACs against 30 MM battleships). In normal circumstances those BSes will decimate nano HACs.
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Tyby
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:38:00 -
[4231]
Quote: What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
this.
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Tyby
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:38:00 -
[4232]
Quote: What's the deal with this ******ed thinking of making a kinder and gentler EVE anyways? Did a GM get beat up and can't handle it or something? Have you been going to too many peace rallys and it made you all wussies?
this.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.09 15:48:00 -
[4233]
CCP failed hard at this one..This whole nerf just skrews up every wrong ship for every wrong reason Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.09 15:48:00 -
[4234]
CCP failed hard at this one..This whole nerf just skrews up every wrong ship for every wrong reason Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
Kalii Parcon
Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:17:00 -
[4235]
Edited by: Kalii Parcon on 10/10/2008 16:29:01 Not that this is a GOOD solution, but if you wanted fast ships to be fast, while keeping slower heavier DPS/Tank ships slower, why don't they just make the MWD a role-specific module? Interceptors, Interdictors etc. Tacklers remain fast (like they are supposed to be) but hardly invincible, while the proposed leveling out of speed based on hull class makes for a much more realistic gradient in speed when MWD's are not even an option. Hit and run guerrilla warfare is still possible, but may require new tactics: webbing, neuting, jamming recons, stealth bombers for DPS etc.
It's just an idea, but if you want to nerf an overpowered tactic it's important to be careful that you nerf the tactic without alienating your player base by nullifying months of training as may be the case with gallente and minmatar pilots. A large portion of gallente ships rely on close quarters, minmatar rely on their speed at a racial level.
EDIT:
You could even work in an AB bonus to ships that rely on speed or close quarter. Boosting an afterburners performance isn't the game breaking mechanic, its offering that same percentage based bonus to a module that already gives a gigantic boost that makes larger hulls going 4+ km/s overpowered.
For the people arguing that the removal of MWD's will make it impossible to move around solo in 0.0 space, interceptors will still be able to MWD, and covops will still be able to cloak. If you're taking anything larger than that through 0.0 space solo, you're already taking a big risk.
-Kalii |
Kalii Parcon
Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:17:00 -
[4236]
Edited by: Kalii Parcon on 10/10/2008 16:29:01 Not that this is a GOOD solution, but if you wanted fast ships to be fast, while keeping slower heavier DPS/Tank ships slower, why don't they just make the MWD a role-specific module? Interceptors, Interdictors etc. Tacklers remain fast (like they are supposed to be) but hardly invincible, while the proposed leveling out of speed based on hull class makes for a much more realistic gradient in speed when MWD's are not even an option. Hit and run guerrilla warfare is still possible, but may require new tactics: webbing, neuting, jamming recons, stealth bombers for DPS etc.
It's just an idea, but if you want to nerf an overpowered tactic it's important to be careful that you nerf the tactic without alienating your player base by nullifying months of training as may be the case with gallente and minmatar pilots. A large portion of gallente ships rely on close quarters, minmatar rely on their speed at a racial level.
EDIT:
You could even work in an AB bonus to ships that rely on speed or close quarter. Boosting an afterburners performance isn't the game breaking mechanic, its offering that same percentage based bonus to a module that already gives a gigantic boost that makes larger hulls going 4+ km/s overpowered.
For the people arguing that the removal of MWD's will make it impossible to move around solo in 0.0 space, interceptors will still be able to MWD, and covops will still be able to cloak. If you're taking anything larger than that through 0.0 space solo, you're already taking a big risk.
-Kalii
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Arn Novelus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.13 20:38:00 -
[4237]
CCP, i love you and I love your game, but for the love of Derek, what is this rubbish, take it away now, before you lose a bucket load of players, its the same thing you tried less than 6 months ago and it was awful then and its awful now, take it away, rethink and this time change the sodding thing before you try saying youve reworked it!!!!! Also, your new mass's for BS's suck, suck really hard _____________________________________________________________________
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Arn Novelus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.13 20:38:00 -
[4238]
CCP, i love you and I love your game, but for the love of Derek, what is this rubbish, take it away now, before you lose a bucket load of players, its the same thing you tried less than 6 months ago and it was awful then and its awful now, take it away, rethink and this time change the sodding thing before you try saying youve reworked it!!!!! Also, your new mass's for BS's suck, suck really hard _____________________________________________________________________
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Stubek
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:32:00 -
[4239]
I really like the role-specific idea, but how about a step further.
Give interceptors (and possibly interdictors) a role bonus that reduces MWD capacitor usage by 50-99%. (balance as required) At the same time, increase the capacitor usage of all MWDs. This way, cruiser-class ships could still use MWDs for escapes, basically MWDing out of range and warping off, but they would lose the ability to perma-run a MWD. One or two cycles is all that would be possible for non-interceptors.
At the same time, buff afterburners to restore the perma-run mobility to the larger ships, while still giving them the tactical choice to fit a MWD to break gatecamps and get away from blobs.
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Stubek
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:32:00 -
[4240]
I really like the role-specific idea, but how about a step further.
Give interceptors (and possibly interdictors) a role bonus that reduces MWD capacitor usage by 50-99%. (balance as required) At the same time, increase the capacitor usage of all MWDs. This way, cruiser-class ships could still use MWDs for escapes, basically MWDing out of range and warping off, but they would lose the ability to perma-run a MWD. One or two cycles is all that would be possible for non-interceptors.
At the same time, buff afterburners to restore the perma-run mobility to the larger ships, while still giving them the tactical choice to fit a MWD to break gatecamps and get away from blobs.
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Debu San
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 23:17:00 -
[4241]
Weee I am so happy that I play Minmatar and now the last thing good about this race is being taken away its so awesome. Webs to even better I am so glad that you are going to destroy the value of my faction webs that are hard enough to get as it is and now are going to be more worthless. Life isn't fair. Therefore it makes sense that some setups and some ships should be vastly better at certain tasks than others. Thats how life is. To balance things out and make them more fair seems only to sate some tears of the few but meh. This plus the ghost training debacle make turning off the PC and reading a book a much more appealing option.
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Debu San
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 23:17:00 -
[4242]
Weee I am so happy that I play Minmatar and now the last thing good about this race is being taken away its so awesome. Webs to even better I am so glad that you are going to destroy the value of my faction webs that are hard enough to get as it is and now are going to be more worthless. Life isn't fair. Therefore it makes sense that some setups and some ships should be vastly better at certain tasks than others. Thats how life is. To balance things out and make them more fair seems only to sate some tears of the few but meh. This plus the ghost training debacle make turning off the PC and reading a book a much more appealing option.
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Tatianna
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:09:00 -
[4243]
Originally by: Debu San Weee I am so happy that I play Minmatar and now the last thing good about this race is being taken away its so awesome. Webs to even better I am so glad that you are going to destroy the value of my faction webs that are hard enough to get as it is and now are going to be more worthless. Life isn't fair. Therefore it makes sense that some setups and some ships should be vastly better at certain tasks than others. Thats how life is. To balance things out and make them more fair seems only to sate some tears of the few but meh. This plus the ghost training debacle make turning off the PC and reading a book a much more appealing option.
Agree!
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Tatianna
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:09:00 -
[4244]
Originally by: Debu San Weee I am so happy that I play Minmatar and now the last thing good about this race is being taken away its so awesome. Webs to even better I am so glad that you are going to destroy the value of my faction webs that are hard enough to get as it is and now are going to be more worthless. Life isn't fair. Therefore it makes sense that some setups and some ships should be vastly better at certain tasks than others. Thats how life is. To balance things out and make them more fair seems only to sate some tears of the few but meh. This plus the ghost training debacle make turning off the PC and reading a book a much more appealing option.
Agree!
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:41:00 -
[4245]
why doesnt ccp just call it what it is,
destroying minmitar.
id love to hear what ship would be remotely usefull after this nano nerf thats minmitar.
i now have to take 2 months to cross train amarr because you destroyed minmitar. Dont you see people will just find a new niche and use it. Youll nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:41:00 -
[4246]
why doesnt ccp just call it what it is,
destroying minmitar.
id love to hear what ship would be remotely usefull after this nano nerf thats minmitar.
i now have to take 2 months to cross train amarr because you destroyed minmitar. Dont you see people will just find a new niche and use it. Youll nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
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Indiference
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.10.15 08:40:00 -
[4247]
I have not had a chance to read through all 142 pages of comments, but I was wondering if the following idea would be viable as an option instead of actually swinging the nerf bat.
What if each class of ship has a structural speed threshold (this can be discussed in more detail) the smaller the class the higher the threshold, which means traveling at a certain maximum speed without taking stuctural damage (some ships wil gain a bonus to structural integrity e.g. vagabond), however with mods/implants/overheating the ship is able to travel faster than the structural threshold, but with the ship taking structural damage.
We all know that once you start taking structural damage your modules start to break which in turn means that the modules being used to atain the higher spead could be destroyed. If your lucky enough to keep your speed mods running until you run out of structure then your ship should be destroyed. It is a simple fact that no ship can maintain armor or shield if there is no stucture left. An extra skill or even a booster (drug) can be introduced to allow you to better maintain structural integrigty.
Idoes seem to me to be a much simpler way to atain the calming effect on speed rather than nerfing the modules/implants/ships
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Booomer
Disco Biscuits
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Posted - 2008.10.15 08:47:00 -
[4248]
Nozh, do you even play eve? or you're just making things out of your deranged mind?
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K'Talas Marta
|
Posted - 2008.10.16 00:19:00 -
[4249]
Originally by: Indiference I have not had a chance to read through all 142 pages of comments, but I was wondering if the following idea would be viable as an option instead of actually swinging the nerf bat.
What if each class of ship has a structural speed threshold (this can be discussed in more detail) the smaller the class the higher the threshold, which means traveling at a certain maximum speed without taking stuctural damage (some ships wil gain a bonus to structural integrity e.g. vagabond), however with mods/implants/overheating the ship is able to travel faster than the structural threshold, but with the ship taking structural damage.
We all know that once you start taking structural damage your modules start to break which in turn means that the modules being used to atain the higher spead could be destroyed. If your lucky enough to keep your speed mods running until you run out of structure then your ship should be destroyed. It is a simple fact that no ship can maintain armor or shield if there is no stucture left. An extra skill or even a booster (drug) can be introduced to allow you to better maintain structural integrigty.
Idoes seem to me to be a much simpler way to atain the calming effect on speed rather than nerfing the modules/implants/ships
This has been posted alot, seems alot of people think its a good idea.
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ATARI BABY
Lords Of Guile
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Posted - 2008.10.16 01:13:00 -
[4250]
umm. whats happend? nerfing nanos or not?
(bit lazy to read tons of shit.)
LIE |
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.16 02:17:00 -
[4251]
basically for nano recons and hacs your ship now goes half the speed it did before or will when this stupid patch hits. I just tried it out on sisi and almost got ass ****d by a ferox in a 250M isk rapier. Rebalanced my ass
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Kusotarre
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.16 04:34:00 -
[4252]
I'm sure it's already been pointed out, but here is the basic timeline of this capitulation to forum whiners (Introduced by Nozh, someone who clearly doesn't engage in a lot of PVP himself):
1) Listen to noisy minority of goofballs who complain about fast speeds, because they don't want to have to fit neutralizers or webs or bring a huginn or something.
2) Announce poorly thought out nerf.
3) Get huge, massively opposed feedback from the playerbase that spends time killing each other instead of crystallizing their tears into barely legible forum posts.
4) Wait.
5) Re-announce poorly thought out nerf in a format that doesn't easily lend itself to new response or wide dissemination of information, and still manage to make a complete ass of yourself (Black ops fuel bay durrrrrrr).
6) Hope people don't point out that the second iteration is exactly the same as the first iteration.
7) Wait to see if nerf can go ahead.
Basic PR tactic for gutter politicians, nice to see CCP has entered the world of grown ups. I always figured that schtick about having ideals for the game was a load of shit.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.16 05:23:00 -
[4253]
good post ^^ jumpgate evolution will crush this game anyways. I know where im goin if the nerf goes through.
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Hetjan
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.16 12:19:00 -
[4254]
Edited by: Hetjan on 16/10/2008 12:23:32 Thanks for making my 5 years of training mean nothing at all and dropping me to the same lvl as someone that has played the game for 1 year. I wasted 5 years of Training for nothing.
Due to this i am not renewing my subscription this year |
Booomer
Disco Biscuits
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Posted - 2008.10.16 12:49:00 -
[4255]
Originally by: Kusotarre
3) Get huge, massively opposed feedback from the playerbase that spends time killing each other instead of crystallizing their tears into barely legible forum posts.
4) Wait.
5) Re-announce poorly thought out nerf in a format that doesn't easily lend itself to new response or wide dissemination of information, and still manage to make a complete ass of yourself (Black ops fuel bay durrrrrrr).
6) Hope people don't point out that the second iteration is exactly the same as the first iteration.
7) Wait to see if nerf can go ahead.
Basic PR tactic for gutter politicians, nice to see CCP has entered the world of grown ups. I always figured that schtick about having ideals for the game was a load of shit.
you forgot one more important step, between the second announcement -
x). Announce a ghost training nerf, hoping it will block out the nano nerf noise somehow, and fail while doing it.
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FATZERS WIFE
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Posted - 2008.10.16 13:32:00 -
[4256]
Is ******* allowed in iceland?
They gotta be heavily stoned, if they nerf faction webs, snake set, MWD's etc.
I just cant understand the whine bout nano ships. If u have a cloak, stab and other crap fitted to your raven ofcourse you have to die to vagabond. Properly fitted raven would pwn t2 vagabond without any prob, only thing u gotta do is to fit a heavy neut on it.
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Hetjan
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:20:00 -
[4257]
well the new players got to be able to kill it in a noobship
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DogTyred
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.10.16 18:52:00 -
[4258]
about time this thread was accidently hidden ?
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OmgzHappy
|
Posted - 2008.10.17 00:42:00 -
[4259]
Edited by: OmgzHappy on 17/10/2008 00:49:00 about time ccp canceled these changes?
I would give you valid points, and believe me, play testing for a few computer games its somewhat something I do.
But your are going in such a wrong direction I wouldnt even consider a compromise with your current direction.
eve is going to be a s**T fest if sis goes to TQ.
nanos need a little less speed on TQ thats it. period.
Its better to just,
if sis = tq than account = canceled.
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Zheng Guo
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Posted - 2008.10.17 01:07:00 -
[4260]
I am minmatar and if you take the speed down please CCP give us a new Heavy assault than Vagabound is than useless
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Amarria Drezine
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Posted - 2008.10.17 01:08:00 -
[4261]
Changes are needed, but the changes proposed are crap.
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Johncrab
Minmatar XBeyond
|
Posted - 2008.10.17 17:24:00 -
[4262]
Everytime CCP puts out a new blog I start bleeding from the eyes
The CCP of the last year or so, reminds me the plot of Body Snatchers. Some allien form or even a well equiped competitor company has found a way to replace the people that build and design this game, with totally incompetent fools, determined to ruin this game.
Glad someone had 2 brain cells left to stop the mwd reactivation delay idea. Now, please go find a few more brain cells to stop this stupid idea of nerfing webbers.
We also need new bonuses for the vaga. Never flew blaster boats but I feel for you guys. I'm hurting with you.
PS -> Body Snatchers, go away please and bring back the old CCP. |
Gimme ISK's
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:02:00 -
[4263]
Instead of the Huge proposed Nerf, why not end Snake implants and limit booster strength.
I for one dont have a problem with seeing a Vaga flying at 15km/s if the guy spent 4bil to fit his ship and POD. He should have an HUGE advantage over all of 4mil SP players flying around their 0.0 home in BS's getting popped by a 20+mil SP player.
I personally cant afford all the High end implants ect.. But without speed all my Mini SP's for my t2 ships are pretty much wasted.
To much time was spent listening to the unskilled masses about the Nano gangs. Completly fix the Lag in Blob warfare b4 you ruin small gang warfare.
Also take a look at the Killboards across 0.0, plenty of these NANO ships are being lost everyday. If they were so invunlnerable they would be cheap to buy since nobody looses them.
None of this makes sense, what needs fixed are t2 missiles, who uses them when faction missiles are better, theres a problem with that.
Thanks for your time, doubt this will be read.
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Darkie82
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.06 14:42:00 -
[4264]
IWH
the greatest whine thread of all time :D
thanks CCP for puting an end to all those nanolovers :D
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.06 18:51:00 -
[4265]
Originally by: Darkie82 IWH
the greatest whine thread of all time :D
thanks CCP for puting an end to all those nanolovers :D
I guess tcf will need to find summat else to blame your losses on instead of your ****e pvp skills now nano is going....
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.07 03:34:00 -
[4266]
Linkage
Strange. Nothing there about the sickening missile and shield tank nerf currently on Test. Turrets (cept Blasters) and Armor tanks looking great though.
So when is this abortion of a patch going to go live? Maybe rushed in to coincide the same time as QR?
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Serge Tahlon
Gallente eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 16:31:00 -
[4267]
i am curious. why exactly did we test the changes and say that they are no good yet they still get implemented ?
i mean, what was the point of wasting hours on sisi ?
bye bye eve bye bye ccp.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.08 08:04:00 -
[4268]
Originally by: Serge Tahlon i am curious. why exactly did we test the changes and say that they are no good yet they still get implemented ?
EGO.
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Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.08 16:57:00 -
[4269]
Nozh now that this retar ded idea of yours in going through, I just wanted to say that you're a ****in idiot. Having played on the test server, this nerf completely sucks, and I hope that ccp loses at least 20k subscriptions in the first week of Quantum Sucks release and you get fired and they have someone that actually listens to the player base take your job. I've had a lot of fun on eve and remember when I had difficulty fighting nano gangs, but then I used my brain and figured out anti-nano fittings to take them down. I hope you get fired and CCP suffers great financial loss because of this stupid nerf and they take it off.
And no, the vultures can't have my stuff. I'm holding out that maybe ccp will correct speed in a more viable way that doesn't get rid of an entire game style. WE ARE LEGI0N. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. WE DO NOT FORGET. EXPECT US. |
Yokan Daifuku
Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 23:46:00 -
[4270]
With the ridiculous focus on PvP did you ever consider that Amarrian fliers will now have huge trouble with close range PvE?
Once again this is another stupid nerf that is happening just so someone can justify their job. ---- Yo-con Die-foo-koo |
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Yokan Daifuku
Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.11.08 23:56:00 -
[4271]
Originally by: Yokan Daifuku With the ridiculous focus on PvP did you ever consider that Amarrian fliers will now have huge trouble with close range PvE?
Once again this is another stupid nerf that is happening just so someone can justify their job.
Originally by: Patch Notes # All medium drones have been changed as they were too effective against small targets. The optimal signature radius has been increased to 125m and increased tracking by a factor of 1.2x giving a change of -42.4% against smaller targets.
Why make it harder for PvE? ---- Yo-con Die-foo-koo |
Ky'rena
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Posted - 2008.11.09 00:06:00 -
[4272]
Well... thanks Noobs. Rather then learn how to play you complain and now ruined that game for all.
No longer Eve.. should change the name to "New Eve".
Though i will give it a couple days but the changes make me sick and to think of all the time i have put into this game to see this. Disheartening it is.
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.11.09 03:57:00 -
[4273]
No other strategy really offered immunity from damage in so many forms, let alone required two types of ships and skills to stop. (other nanoships, and rapiers, which also had the problem of only being able to fit a nanotank as well.)
The fact that even with those, you had to be amazingly (I mean, let me summarize that even a generally skilled MMO player with two friends and specialized counterships for this example) competent in every aspect to catch one pilot using such types of setups. Blobbing is bad I'll admit, but that needs to be fixed in a whole different means (trust me, you think you've heard whines now? picture how bad blobbing/camping becomes now. Which, to be honest would make the need for a BS/cap and larger balancing much more visible.)
I flew nothing but caldari ships and used missiles for the first 18 million of my skillpoints over these near two years. I had to very specifically train navigation, gunnery skills, more ewar, and recons AND Minmatar cruiser V, and now they fix this. Even the few times I've had to play, even with me being spot on with two others it was too easy to escape. Catching a Nano was impossible unless you had a very good idea of them incoming, and even then a slight bit of lag could ruin it.
It was hit and run beyond any real power that had existed before in the game. It rendered missiles USELESS, which almost every single caldari pilot specialized in. Guns had you playing traversal games trying to snipe with multiple ships, of which they could warp out to escape anyway. It was either train for the Nano or train specifically for the counter. That's why it got hammered into a style of tank like every other. Another one bites the dust. |
khufo
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.09 12:59:00 -
[4274]
CCP can u please let us know how many people stopped their accounts by the end of November!!!
if less than a 500, i guess you win somehow |
lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.09 16:46:00 -
[4275]
Edited by: lebrata on 09/11/2008 16:48:46
Originally by: khufo CCP can u please let us know how many people stopped their accounts by the end of November!!!
if less than a 500, i guess you win somehow
-8k membership already.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.11.09 23:54:00 -
[4276]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 09/11/2008 16:48:46
Originally by: khufo CCP can u please let us know how many people stopped their accounts by the end of November!!!
if less than a 500, i guess you win somehow
-8k membership already.
Source?
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Tekno Viking
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Posted - 2008.11.10 05:29:00 -
[4277]
CCP can go **** themselves with this retarted 'balance'
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Rhamnousia
Caldari Pelennor Swarm G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.10 06:08:00 -
[4278]
Again, I agree that speed and nano need rebalancing. This nano nerf sucks the big one.
I'll take old nano-phoon/domi over this ANY day of the week.
and IIRC, the players base asked you to "fix" nano, not take a **** on the game.
bleh. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor.
Forever Pelennor |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.11.10 06:15:00 -
[4279]
How very... familiar this thread has become.
Every single time there has been a major re balancing of a major aspect of combat the same fury of "EVE will die" and "I'm quitting now" threads leap into existence. And so far the doom predicted in those threads has been off the mark, by a very large margin.
How many people screaming in here right now have even bothered to test the changes out on the test server? Hmmmm? 1...4...5... okay a handful have. Most of you can shut up now.
Of the ones that did test, did you actually test it or did you jump in your favorite nano set up and try to fly it exactly the same way as you always have... and then have a seizure because it was different now? Don't you think that was the point of doing the re balancing in the first place?
A great deal of very valuable feed back was generated by the testing on Sisi, with changes and tweaks coming fast and furious even over the course of a single day. The people that observed, tested, tried old tactics, tried new tactics and then calmly and factually reported their findings were listened to. Because that is what any game developer worth its salt does... strive to attain a balanced yet diverse game instead of catering to one particular play style over all others.
This, boys and girls, is why you aren't in charge of the development of a successful computer game. You lack a firm grasp of what goes into game design and game balance, and what is important to the game as a whole rather than the niche role you are currently comfortable with.
For those of you that can't deal with the changes and feel you have to leave, that's always a bit sad and good luck to you. With luck we'll see you again in the future, and no hard feelings. But we can do without the "I hope EVE fails now, because I don't like it any more" garbage. It makes you look very petty indeed.
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Umek
Minmatar Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2008.11.10 12:17:00 -
[4280]
Ranger 1,
I totally agree with what you have said, and I have all of my 48m SP's in Minmater!
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Don Shadow
Viper Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.10 14:11:00 -
[4281]
Originally by: Ranger 1
A great deal of very valuable feed back was generated by the testing on Sisi, with changes and tweaks coming fast and furious even over the course of a single day. The people that observed, tested, tried old tactics, tried new tactics and then calmly and factually reported their findings were listened to. Because that is what any game developer worth its salt does... strive to attain a balanced yet diverse game instead of catering to one particular play style over all others.
This, boys and girls, is why you aren't in charge of the development of a successful computer game. You lack a firm grasp of what goes into game design and game balance, and what is important to the game as a whole rather than the niche role you are currently comfortable with.
hmmm... who are you again? a some sort of medium or what? oh yea,and btw, how it's your wife?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.11.10 14:41:00 -
[4282]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/11/2008 14:41:52
Originally by: Don Shadow
Originally by: Ranger 1
A great deal of very valuable feed back was generated by the testing on Sisi, with changes and tweaks coming fast and furious even over the course of a single day. The people that observed, tested, tried old tactics, tried new tactics and then calmly and factually reported their findings were listened to. Because that is what any game developer worth its salt does... strive to attain a balanced yet diverse game instead of catering to one particular play style over all others.
This, boys and girls, is why you aren't in charge of the development of a successful computer game. You lack a firm grasp of what goes into game design and game balance, and what is important to the game as a whole rather than the niche role you are currently comfortable with.
hmmm... who are you again? a some sort of medium or what? oh yea,and btw, how it's your wife?
Sitting beside me, laughing at your lameness. I could say that your wife is with me as well, but that would be beneath me...
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Don Shadow
Viper Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.10 14:51:00 -
[4283]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/11/2008 14:41:52
Originally by: Don Shadow
Originally by: Ranger 1
A great deal of very valuable feed back was generated by the testing on Sisi, with changes and tweaks coming fast and furious even over the course of a single day. The people that observed, tested, tried old tactics, tried new tactics and then calmly and factually reported their findings were listened to. Because that is what any game developer worth its salt does... strive to attain a balanced yet diverse game instead of catering to one particular play style over all others.
This, boys and girls, is why you aren't in charge of the development of a successful computer game. You lack a firm grasp of what goes into game design and game balance, and what is important to the game as a whole rather than the niche role you are currently comfortable with.
hmmm... who are you again? a some sort of medium or what? oh yea,and btw, how it's your wife?
Sitting beside me, laughing at your lameness. I could say that your wife is with me as well, but that would be beneath me...
well it just happens that i don't have a wife, so your medium powers failed this time...; pls stick to the things that you know better, like" A great deal of very valuable feed back was generated by the testing on Sisi, with changes and tweaks coming fast and furious even over the course of a single day"
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.10 14:57:00 -
[4284]
Quote: well it just happens that i don't have a wife
Now that's a shocker.
Care to try and keep on topic, or do you prefer to continue failing with the attempts at high school humor?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.10 15:59:00 -
[4285]
As somebody who has spent a lot of time on sissi testing everything from frigs to BS in and out of gangs and mostly in realistic pvp scenarios i can honestly say that for everything ccp has fixed or tried to fix summat else or in some cases several things have been destroyed or made pointless.
Worst nerf ever for eve and for pvp in general.
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CountingCrow
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.11.10 16:58:00 -
[4286]
Drake prices about to skyrocket for sure
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StuckNJita
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Posted - 2008.11.10 19:12:00 -
[4287]
From the patch notes:
"The capacitor penalty associated with micro warp drives will now be based on meta level. A standard Tech I MWD will have a capacitor penalty of 25% when equipped while the meta 14 MWD will have a 0% penalty to capacitor status."
Will they change the bonus on the Thorax? It's pretty useless / nullified now.. (same for some other ships like the faction Megathron i believe)
------------------ Yes, the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.. |
Blackwaterz
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Posted - 2008.11.10 19:15:00 -
[4288]
WTS Drake BPO
WTS Drake BPO
WTS Drake BPO
WTS Drake BPO
WTS Drake BPO |
Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.11.10 20:14:00 -
[4289]
Edited by: Mitsuni Abashadoni on 10/11/2008 20:13:59 So to sum things up you went
"OH HAI! We care about our community and will take another look at this"
back when the first massive response to these changes were announced, and then took a look at it again, and decided that
"OH HAI! Sod that, we're going through with most of the changes that affect multiple aspects of this, and oh by the way, we don't really care what you think about this and that a lot of people are very upset about these changes and have provided feedback upon testing this, and oh, not to mention that you're changing pretty much everything that affects speed and inertia in the game."
Brilliant CCP, just brilliant.
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YTL Stinger
Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.11 00:02:00 -
[4290]
This is so gonna rock! Just wait til there are 15-20+ bc and bs fleets everywhere. Then let the lagfest begin! "CCP nerfs speed and players counter with passive drake fleets everywhere striking the server for BOOYAA damage!!!!"
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Darius Grey
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Posted - 2008.11.12 01:27:00 -
[4291]
ok, noah made a good argument on why they altered mwd's, afterburners, and implants. So if the intent was to make it so that those weren't as desirable (supposedly to get to ludicrous speeds) why cut so much from the base speed of the ships? My ship lost nearly 1/3 its speed, my only enhancment, space ship command trained to lvl 4. Now, i need to figure which med slot to cut so i can throw a afterburner or mwd in there, just so it doesn't take me 2hrs to float slowly to the acc gate i need to get to the next room in a mission.
I can see the "balancing" read nerfing of afterburners, and mwd's and some of the implants. but if u cut those out, his arguements about ludicrous speed don't stand up, because the factors affecting it are gone. But they still ****d the base speed of "most" ship classes.
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Darius Grey
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Posted - 2008.11.12 01:29:00 -
[4292]
i can't beleive that " ra p ed" in my earlier comment was ****'d
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Galies
|
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:33:00 -
[4293]
Hey CCP, thanks. I mean it, I just love the fact that i trained all that time to fly a Crow and have the ability to fit it properly, and now i lose 8oom/s. I cant get over how happy i am that i spent all that time getting into a ship that would allow me to conduct solo PvP and evade heavy missiles effectively and now that Crow might as well sit in my hangar collecting dust. Its touching to know that you guys care enough to kiil the effectiveness of some of the most specialized ships. One request though, if you are gonna hobble the Crow and other interceptors, please make it harder for the interceptor killers like the Vagabond, Curse, and Rapier to kill the interceptor?
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:48:00 -
[4294]
Don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but the MWD changes make the Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters MWD strictly better than MWD II. It has better cap and power requirements *and* requires less cap to use while giving the same speed bonus. Utterly ridiculous.
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Galiessis
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:59:00 -
[4295]
Exactly Faffy. i use the cat's exclusively on my Crow's. With all skills and with one T2 overdrive and one T2 nano, i used to be able to fly just over 4800 m/s. I've flown my Crow once tonight and i can just barely break 4100m/s. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know i wasted all that training.
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:35:00 -
[4296]
As far as my minmatar main is concerned, he still has a range bonus to webs with his rapier even if they are at 60%, and his dps/tank muninn will still be just as effective, and even faster perhaps with an AB.
If I understand the stats correctly, BS class weapons will be less effective on smaller ships then before. It will be harder then it is already to track and cause full damage on small targets with large projectiles. If this is so, I can't be the only person who still sees the potential for speed-tanking larger, more powerful (and unaware!) targets.
Sure the game will change, but tbh I think those who are primarily nano training are focusing too much on their top-speed and still haven't seriously read and understood the dev-blog!
1. You will still be able to escape and avoid the battles you cannot win or worse, cannot gain a kill with.
2. Being webbed does not mean instant death anymore. Rapier pilots like myself are no longer "GOD HAS STRUCK YOU DOWNNN, HAHA!" to nanos. Rejoice!
3. Your navigation training is still worth a lot. I haven't been in eve for as long as many of you have, but still I never regret training anything; and in reference to that one 4 year pilot who was complaining (he was at the beginning somewhere...) about training solely for nano and was threatening to leave eve: Snap out of it!
4. Slower battleships? It will be annoying as hell tbh, not that they were that fast anyway. Probably be using more armor tanks now, which isn't too much of a problem.
5. "Ludicrous speed" --- :P
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:45:00 -
[4297]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=861746&page=2
Seems the missile side of this is still being worked on. Haven't read all of it yet, but there are some good ideas at the beginning, before the discussion falls apart that is, heh.
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Aragonis
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:58:00 -
[4298]
Do CCP have no concept of "customer feedback"? They pitch some ideas, we tell them that the ideas suck. They go ahead and do it anyway.
Here's how I read the latest patch posts from CCP:
Quote: Dear Customers,
Please drop your pants and bend over.
- CCP
--- http://www.ninjacodingmonkey.co.uk/ |
Lorac Caladon
Caldari The Cowboy Junkies
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:05:00 -
[4299]
Originally by: Aragonis Do CCP have no concept of "customer feedback"? They pitch some ideas, we tell them that the ideas suck. They go ahead and do it anyway.
Here's how I read the latest patch posts from CCP:
Quote: Dear Customers,
Please drop your pants and bend over.
- CCP
This seems to be the policy lately...
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Rock'n'Roll Lady
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 02:29:00 -
[4300]
Originally by: Aragonis Do CCP have no concept of "customer feedback"? They pitch some ideas, we tell them that the ideas suck. They go ahead and do it anyway.
Here's how I read the latest patch posts from CCP:
Quote: Dear Customers,
Please drop your pants and bend over.
- CCP
^^this is the ultimate truth
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Firewolf21
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Posted - 2008.11.14 03:33:00 -
[4301]
CCP is conducting business just like everyone else is. If they are as cracked-up as you think they are, they seriously wouldn't have made it as far as this patch. There would be no eve right now to fight over.
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amarrian priest
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Posted - 2009.01.01 00:31:00 -
[4302]
you guys are whining to much, just adapt and overcome...or leave..this game isn't gonna give u free kills, we all have to adapt..besides..this game is about tactics and how to counter enemies...doesn't matter how many skills u have..if know how to counter effectivly u win....duh!
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