Originally by: BiggestT

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Originally by: Major Stallion

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Originally by: Sidewayzracer

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.

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no such thing as perma jamming only you being a completly unlucky tit

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yes there is...jam chance is a simple division problem. if the answer = 1..perma jam.

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LOL ur an idiot.
Plz actually learn how ecm works before you post, whine and be a general asshat whos posting made up loads of BS.

ecm is always chance based, can never =1.

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Originally by: Xiaodown

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You're theorycrafting. Not only is that a month+ of training, but also optimal + (falloff * 1.5). Plus, dedicating rigs to it, which is something you wouldn't do except on a specialized ship - or, at least, I wouldn't waste a midslot PLUS two rig slots just to counter a falcon; interestingly enough the fact that you say "DAMPS CAN COUNTER FALCONSLOL!", and then proceed to theorycraft a solution which requires extensive training, plus a midslot and TWO rig slots to counter, kind of proves my point, not yours.

I know you already posted about how this gives you a 50% chance per damp to hit the target. Well, [citation needed]. Wouldn't optimal + 1.5*falloff be more like a 25% chance to hit anyway? If (optimal) is 100%, and (optimal+falloff) = 50%, wouldn't (optimal + falloff + 1/2 falloff) be 25%?

So, yeah, EVERYONE TAKE NOTE:

THIS IS HOW TO COUNTER A FALCON JAMMING YOU FROM 150K, AS TOLD BY MALCANIS:
1.) Train damps for 2 months.
2.) Waste a mid slot AAAAAND two rig slots.
--2.a) (If you can't lock to 150km because you're a HAC or BC, waste TWO midslots (damp, SB) and TWO rig slots.)
3.) Be happy with a 25% chance to damp the falcon, IF you get a chance to lock him after he starts jamming you.
4.) Your damp cycle lasts 10 seconds, his jams last 20, so if you have the same percentage chance to damp him as he does to jam you, he keeps you disabled for 100% more time than you keep him disabled.

But it's cool, doesn't need a nerf.

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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falcons are fine as is. Paper thin, with negligible dps. A glass cannon of jamming. The way it should be.

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Originally by: Xiaodown

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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I am a big fan of the concept of letting the tacklers actually tackle. The problem then becomes that unless your tacklers have ECCM the falcon just jams them and you can't lock the target down. The reason so many ships fit point+web is because its needed. You have to have multiple on a target or else they can escape fairly easy if the opposing gang has a jamming ship.

I think the reason why so many people complain about the falcon is that a good falcon pilot is never in danger. Their range allows them to get out when they chose. A single ceptor can provide a warp in point on a falcon but all the falcon pilot has to do is warp to another bookmark. If the ceptor get a point on just jam them. If another ship warps in on top then jam them as well (Even though the falcon is going to split the second the inty gets within 50k of them and you KNOW they are already aligned.)

So maybe warp 2 or 3 ships on top of them. Then we are getting to the point where it take 3-4 ships to kill a paper thin recon. That's not balance. If we are fighting a 6 on 6 I have to devote 4 of my ships to doing nothing but killing your falcon? Or I could just bring my own falcon. Once again, the devs already made it clear that something thats only counter is its self isn't balanced.

The game is balanced around range and effectiveness. The more range you have the less effective you are. Sniper ships can have great range but the DPS sucks. Damps have good range but reduction amount and chance to hit are severely hampered. Same goes for tracking disruptors, blaster boats, even target painters. ECM remains to effective at extreme ranges. The range needs to be balanced. If a falcon only had a 25 percent chance to jam at 100-200k, 50 percent at 75k like the rest of e-war then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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This is an excellent post. You've said what I would have said, had I been more eloquent.

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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Edited by: Borat Sangdiev on 30/07/2008 21:57:41

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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Edited by: Borat Sangdiev on 30/07/2008 19:22:12

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Not exactly sure what youw ere trying to say with the first part of that post but I totally dont understand the second. You think ALL cloaking recons need a nerf??? If you think the arazu is overpowered I have to seriously question you sanity.

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My point is: There is no good reason not to pick the cloaking version. The force recons obsolete the combat recons. That is a problem beside the fact of other balance issues.

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ITT: Pilgrim is better than Curse!

Oh wait, it's not! It's failboat extreme! And let's ll remind ourselves why that is?

Because it didn't get it's range bonus.

Hey, my IronymeterÖ just melted.

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Hello at proving his point. The amarr combat recon is used regardless of its inability to warp cloaked. Not the case with the Caldari recons. Give the amarr force recon a range bonus and then it would be equal to the falcon's bonuses. Your ironymeter is a failmeter.

You shouldn't really compare racial force recons with each other anyway though, since they are apples and oranges.

Falcon's effective range is too far, that's the issue. Range or effectiveness, you should have to choose just like damps, just like tracking disruptors.

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highlighted for self contradiction.

So anyway, if you're stripping the rook/falcon's range bonus, what are you proposing to replace it with? You've dodged this question from me twice already but now I think it's time, little troll, for you to man up or shut up. The Falcon and Rook have the best EW of the recons because all their bonuses are applied to their EW. If you're proposing to take that away, what will they get to match the web/scram/capwar ability that the other recons get?

(Or do you just want whatever you don't fly to be nerfed?)

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Why not give it and the rook a RoF bonus to heavy missiles? Then you might actually be able to solo something and then you can quit crying about the ship's inability to do anything except jam. The other recons have to sacrifice mid slots for tackle gear as well, so don't go crying about that issue.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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falcons are fine as is. Paper thin, with negligible dps. A glass cannon of jamming. The way it should be.

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That is not the core issue with falcons. Rooks are fine for example. What breaks falcon is the ability to not be seen beforehand in combat and just pop up and also warp cloaked between bookmarks around a gate. THAT is overpowering. You'll see, one of these days falcon will get nerfed just like nano's did. Falcon DOES need a nerf.

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Originally by: Porcellon

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Im guessing that the OP has never fought a spider tank gang, ecm is vital to counter it.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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falcons are fine as is. Paper thin, with negligible dps. A glass cannon of jamming. The way it should be.

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That is not the core issue with falcons. Rooks are fine for example. What breaks falcon is the ability to not be seen beforehand in combat and just pop up and also warp cloaked between bookmarks around a gate. THAT is overpowering. You'll see, one of these days falcon will get nerfed just like nano's did. Falcon DOES need a nerf.

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How does that not apply to Rapiers, arazus and even pilgrims? Seems to me that what you actually dislike is the whole concept of a Froce Recon.

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Edit - Ill give you an example

You falcon is 150k away from its target. Your target is 50k away from its target. The aim is to get your target to stop shooting at it's target. You only have one racial jammer for the person you are trying to jam. You activate your jammer. You have a 50 percent chance to jam. It misses. You activate it again. Every time you activate it you have a 50 percent chance to jam that target thus achieving your goal of making it stop shooting at its target.

I am in a arazu. My target is 150k away. My targets target is 50k away from the person shooting at them. I activate my damps. 1 hits and 2 miss. The damp isnt enough to make take the ship loose lock. I damp again. 2 hit and 1 miss. Still not enough. I have to hit that 50 percent three times at the same time. You only have to hit it once. So once again, get a idea of how a mod works before you open your mouth.

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Wow, you keep moving the goalposts on that poor Malcanis guy. Before we continue this maybe you could acknowledge that an Arazu is capable at removing a Falcon at 150k away? Afterall the numbers he has presented adds up and you haven't refuted it.

As for the rest, your Arazu isn't a Falcon. You can't use it the same way and neither should you. If you hang about 150k away from a gate and a hostile fleet jumps in you're not only in the wrong place, you're also wasting the scramming bonus on the arazu.

So, to reiterate. The Arazu can force a Falcon to either come closer or warp away. It can't do the same thing as a Falcon from 150k. But then a Falcon can't do the same thing as an Arazu either. Arazus are about bringing hostile ships into striking range and making sure they can't escape from there. A Falcon could never dream of doing such a thing.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Edit - Ill give you an example

You falcon is 150k away from its target. Your target is 50k away from its target. The aim is to get your target to stop shooting at it's target. You only have one racial jammer for the person you are trying to jam. You activate your jammer. You have a 50 percent chance to jam. It misses. You activate it again. Every time you activate it you have a 50 percent chance to jam that target thus achieving your goal of making it stop shooting at its target.

I am in a arazu. My target is 150k away. My targets target is 50k away from the person shooting at them. I activate my damps. 1 hits and 2 miss. The damp isnt enough to make take the ship loose lock. I damp again. 2 hit and 1 miss. Still not enough. I have to hit that 50 percent three times at the same time. You only have to hit it once. So once again, get a idea of how a mod works before you open your mouth.

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Wow, you keep moving the goalposts on that poor Malcanis guy. Before we continue this maybe you could acknowledge that an Arazu is capable at removing a Falcon at 150k away? Afterall the numbers he has presented adds up and you haven't refuted it.

As for the rest, your Arazu isn't a Falcon. You can't use it the same way and neither should you. If you hang about 150k away from a gate and a hostile fleet jumps in you're not only in the wrong place, you're also wasting the scramming bonus on the arazu.

So, to reiterate. The Arazu can force a Falcon to either come closer or warp away. It can't do the same thing as a Falcon from 150k. But then a Falcon can't do the same thing as an Arazu either. Arazus are about bringing hostile ships into striking range and making sure they can't escape from there. A Falcon could never dream of doing such a thing.

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Arazus can't damp anything at 150km. Nothing can. Stop making shit up.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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itt: lots of ignorance and idiots shouting NERF NERF NERF

now that less people will be fitting webs with the coming change, this frees up mids for eccm

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Originally by: cianide pro

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Originally by: Xiaodown

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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I am a big fan of the concept of letting the tacklers actually tackle. The problem then becomes that unless your tacklers have ECCM the falcon just jams them and you can't lock the target down. The reason so many ships fit point+web is because its needed. You have to have multiple on a target or else they can escape fairly easy if the opposing gang has a jamming ship.

I think the reason why so many people complain about the falcon is that a good falcon pilot is never in danger. Their range allows them to get out when they chose. A single ceptor can provide a warp in point on a falcon but all the falcon pilot has to do is warp to another bookmark. If the ceptor get a point on just jam them. If another ship warps in on top then jam them as well (Even though the falcon is going to split the second the inty gets within 50k of them and you KNOW they are already aligned.)

So maybe warp 2 or 3 ships on top of them. Then we are getting to the point where it take 3-4 ships to kill a paper thin recon. That's not balance. If we are fighting a 6 on 6 I have to devote 4 of my ships to doing nothing but killing your falcon? Or I could just bring my own falcon. Once again, the devs already made it clear that something thats only counter is its self isn't balanced.

The game is balanced around range and effectiveness. The more range you have the less effective you are. Sniper ships can have great range but the DPS sucks. Damps have good range but reduction amount and chance to hit are severely hampered. Same goes for tracking disruptors, blaster boats, even target painters. ECM remains to effective at extreme ranges. The range needs to be balanced. If a falcon only had a 25 percent chance to jam at 100-200k, 50 percent at 75k like the rest of e-war then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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This is an excellent post. You've said what I would have said, had I been more eloquent.

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Funny this part ''like the rest of e-war then we wouldn't be having this discussion. ''



rest of the e-war is not chance based and not even racial. Make ecm non racial, multies only or make the other racials, dampers are very similar to the jammers as they effect on the sensor strenghts in a way so why not making them also racials and chance based????

75% jamm chance on close range is instant dead of a falcon, the long range is his way to survive when the jamm fails, and can be countered by eccm and long range snippers.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Bellum, there are optimal rigs for your damps if you want to use them. Malcanis's numbers are entirely correct. Stop pretending otherwise.

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Ok, Arazu with 2x optimal rigs gives me 63km optimal vs. My Falcons 230km optimal. Hmm, my Falcon's optimal is *almost* FOUR TIMES that of my Arazu. I'm not pretending shit. Stop being obtuse.

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Edit - Ill give you an example

You falcon is 150k away from its target. Your target is 50k away from its target. The aim is to get your target to stop shooting at it's target. You only have one racial jammer for the person you are trying to jam. You activate your jammer. You have a 50 percent chance to jam. It misses. You activate it again. Every time you activate it you have a 50 percent chance to jam that target thus achieving your goal of making it stop shooting at its target.

I am in a arazu. My target is 150k away. My targets target is 50k away from the person shooting at them. I activate my damps. 1 hits and 2 miss. The damp isnt enough to make take the ship loose lock. I damp again. 2 hit and 1 miss. Still not enough. I have to hit that 50 percent three times at the same time. You only have to hit it once. So once again, get a idea of how a mod works before you open your mouth.

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Wow, you keep moving the goalposts on that poor Malcanis guy. Before we continue this maybe you could acknowledge that an Arazu is capable at removing a Falcon at 150k away? Afterall the numbers he has presented adds up and you haven't refuted it.

As for the rest, your Arazu isn't a Falcon. You can't use it the same way and neither should you. If you hang about 150k away from a gate and a hostile fleet jumps in you're not only in the wrong place, you're also wasting the scramming bonus on the arazu.

So, to reiterate. The Arazu can force a Falcon to either come closer or warp away. It can't do the same thing as a Falcon from 150k. But then a Falcon can't do the same thing as an Arazu either. Arazus are about bringing hostile ships into striking range and making sure they can't escape from there. A Falcon could never dream of doing such a thing.

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Bellum, there are optimal rigs for your damps if you want to use them. Malcanis's numbers are entirely correct. Stop pretending otherwise.

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Ok, Arazu with 2x optimal rigs gives me 63km optimal vs. My Falcons 230km optimal. Hmm, my Falcon's optimal is *almost* FOUR TIMES that of my Arazu. I'm not pretending shit. Stop being obtuse.

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I'll ignore the insult for the moment and cherish the fact that you have come to understand that Arazu's can be effective just fine towards a target 150k way. Progress has been made.

Obviously all the MAX skilled and RANGE rigged Falcons in Eve with PROPER Bookmarks will just laugh at this but the rest probably won't when that particular Arazu shows up.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Xiaodown

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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I am a big fan of the concept of letting the tacklers actually tackle. The problem then becomes that unless your tacklers have ECCM the falcon just jams them and you can't lock the target down. The reason so many ships fit point+web is because its needed. You have to have multiple on a target or else they can escape fairly easy if the opposing gang has a jamming ship.

I think the reason why so many people complain about the falcon is that a good falcon pilot is never in danger. Their range allows them to get out when they chose. A single ceptor can provide a warp in point on a falcon but all the falcon pilot has to do is warp to another bookmark. If the ceptor get a point on just jam them. If another ship warps in on top then jam them as well (Even though the falcon is going to split the second the inty gets within 50k of them and you KNOW they are already aligned.)

So maybe warp 2 or 3 ships on top of them. Then we are getting to the point where it take 3-4 ships to kill a paper thin recon. That's not balance. If we are fighting a 6 on 6 I have to devote 4 of my ships to doing nothing but killing your falcon? Or I could just bring my own falcon. Once again, the devs already made it clear that something thats only counter is its self isn't balanced.

The game is balanced around range and effectiveness. The more range you have the less effective you are. Sniper ships can have great range but the DPS sucks. Damps have good range but reduction amount and chance to hit are severely hampered. Same goes for tracking disruptors, blaster boats, even target painters. ECM remains to effective at extreme ranges. The range needs to be balanced. If a falcon only had a 25 percent chance to jam at 100-200k, 50 percent at 75k like the rest of e-war then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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This is an excellent post. You've said what I would have said, had I been more eloquent.

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Who the hell wastes a jamming cycle on a tackler?

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Edit - Ill give you an example

You falcon is 150k away from its target. Your target is 50k away from its target. The aim is to get your target to stop shooting at it's target. You only have one racial jammer for the person you are trying to jam. You activate your jammer. You have a 50 percent chance to jam. It misses. You activate it again. Every time you activate it you have a 50 percent chance to jam that target thus achieving your goal of making it stop shooting at its target.

I am in a arazu. My target is 150k away. My targets target is 50k away from the person shooting at them. I activate my damps. 1 hits and 2 miss. The damp isnt enough to make take the ship loose lock. I damp again. 2 hit and 1 miss. Still not enough. I have to hit that 50 percent three times at the same time. You only have to hit it once. So once again, get a idea of how a mod works before you open your mouth.

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Wow, you keep moving the goalposts on that poor Malcanis guy. Before we continue this maybe you could acknowledge that an Arazu is capable at removing a Falcon at 150k away? Afterall the numbers he has presented adds up and you haven't refuted it.

As for the rest, your Arazu isn't a Falcon. You can't use it the same way and neither should you. If you hang about 150k away from a gate and a hostile fleet jumps in you're not only in the wrong place, you're also wasting the scramming bonus on the arazu.

So, to reiterate. The Arazu can force a Falcon to either come closer or warp away. It can't do the same thing as a Falcon from 150k. But then a Falcon can't do the same thing as an Arazu either. Arazus are about bringing hostile ships into striking range and making sure they can't escape from there. A Falcon could never dream of doing such a thing.

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I agree with you on some points but I am also a little confused on others. I agree with you that there is a chance a arazu can force a falcon to come closer. The average falcon has a lock range of around 230k with decent skills. One damp will drop them down to around 115k. Now the falcon is going to warp and come back 100k from someone in their gang so its going to take 2 damps to remove them from the fight. I would be OK with that if my 2 damps had a good chance of actually doing that from a 100-125k out. See, People keep saying "ECM is chance based and Damps aren't so its balanced!!!" But thats the thing. Damps ARE chance based at the range. You have a better chance of hitting with a chance based ECM at 150k then you do hitting with a NON chance based damp from the same range.

"Arazus are about bringing hostile ships into striking range and making sure they can't escape from there. A Falcon could never dream of doing such a thing."

This is the part I am confused on. Are you saying that you would rather be able to force one ship to move closer instead of totally being able to remove 3 from the fight? Maybe its just a case of the grass being greener on the other side but I will take the ability to remove 3 from the fight any day.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Bellum, there are optimal rigs for your damps if you want to use them. Malcanis's numbers are entirely correct. Stop pretending otherwise.

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Ok, Arazu with 2x optimal rigs gives me 63km optimal vs. My Falcons 230km optimal. Hmm, my Falcon's optimal is *almost* FOUR TIMES that of my Arazu. I'm not pretending shit. Stop being obtuse.

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I'll ignore the insult for the moment and cherish the fact that you have come to understand that Arazu's can be effective just fine towards a target 150k way. Progress has been made.

Obviously all the MAX skilled and RANGE rigged Falcons in Eve with PROPER Bookmarks will just laugh at this but the rest probably won't when that particular Arazu shows up.

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Wait, what? 60km != 150km. 60 is less than half of 150. How do you figure it can damp anything effectively at 150km?

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Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Bellum, there are optimal rigs for your damps if you want to use them. Malcanis's numbers are entirely correct. Stop pretending otherwise.

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Ok, Arazu with 2x optimal rigs gives me 63km optimal vs. My Falcons 230km optimal. Hmm, my Falcon's optimal is *almost* FOUR TIMES that of my Arazu. I'm not pretending shit. Stop being obtuse.

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I'll ignore the insult for the moment and cherish the fact that you have come to understand that Arazu's can be effective just fine towards a target 150k way. Progress has been made.

Obviously all the MAX skilled and RANGE rigged Falcons in Eve with PROPER Bookmarks will just laugh at this but the rest probably won't when that particular Arazu shows up.

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Wait, what? 60km != 150km. 60 is less than half of 150. How do you figure it can damp anything effectively at 150km?

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I am confused by this as well. How is a arazu effective at 150k when their optimal is 60k? Do you know what the chance to actually hit with a damp is at 150k with max skills and fall off rigs?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Out of interest, perhaps some Amarr pilot can tell me what DPS a Tachyon II fitted Apoc can get at 220Km or so?

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Out of interest, perhaps some Amarr pilot can tell me what DPS a Tachyon II fitted Apoc can get at 220Km or so?

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oh ffs. no one brings a tachyon fitted apoc to a small roaming gang. get real.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Edited by: Malcanis on 31/07/2008 13:19:24

Originally by: Ignatious Mei

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Lossy Lucy

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Bellum, there are optimal rigs for your damps if you want to use them. Malcanis's numbers are entirely correct. Stop pretending otherwise.

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Ok, Arazu with 2x optimal rigs gives me 63km optimal vs. My Falcons 230km optimal. Hmm, my Falcon's optimal is *almost* FOUR TIMES that of my Arazu. I'm not pretending shit. Stop being obtuse.

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I'll ignore the insult for the moment and cherish the fact that you have come to understand that Arazu's can be effective just fine towards a target 150k way. Progress has been made.

Obviously all the MAX skilled and RANGE rigged Falcons in Eve with PROPER Bookmarks will just laugh at this but the rest probably won't when that particular Arazu shows up.

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Wait, what? 60km != 150km. 60 is less than half of 150. How do you figure it can damp anything effectively at 150km?

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I am confused by this as well. How is a arazu effective at 150k when their optimal is 60k? Do you know what the chance to actually hit with a damp is at 150k with max skills and fall off rigs?

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EW has a 50% chance to work within falloff. T2 Damp has 90Km falloff with Frq. Mod. skill at level 5.

EDT: shouldn't you know this stuff before complaining about how ineffective damps are?

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