Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: baltec1

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They work fine for me and countless others.

Fit remote multi spec ECCM onto a few ships and you will have no issues with any ECM ships.

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Sorry but have you actually done that? Im pretty sure you havent, it does not work. And if you still claim to have done it, Id like you do explain in detail how it works. Will be intresting to see that bluff.

Besides, no one in their right mind would try to fit their whole fleet with eccm mids just because they might face falcons. Good fleets bring enough of their OWN FALCONS. That is the most effective way of dealing with ecm. END OF STORY. You cant convince anyone that there is a better way, because there isnt. You either will lie or you are clueless about how combat actually works in eve.

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Originally by: Wideen

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Seeing as there are 14 pages of replies makes me think that there is truth to this

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Originally by: baltec1

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I would have thought you were smart enough to know how to use them.

Its simple, slower ships such as battleships, BC and even cruisers can fit ECCM rather than a web which will be of little to no use on the slower ships since nothing gets into web range unless its a blaster boat.

Now you have a large amount of ECCM which can be concentrated onto whichever ship is being jammed by any ECM. Depending on the size of your fleet and how many ECM ships the ememy have you can literaly turn a falcon into a useless hunk of expencive metal and keep the fleets firepower/RR intact.


Perhaps you should try this tactic and the many others in this threadnought before screaming nerf, its quite clear from your responces you have either little to no pvp experience or you have never attempted to make a real effort to counter ECM.

I am not a falcon pilot, hell I am not even a BB pilot, I just dont like flying something without any armour or firepower and use missiles which I hate. If you do somehow get falcons nerfed then its only going to make my life easyer but I just dont see why they should be nerfed when there are so many ways to counter them.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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R u special or somethin? What part of your wakkadoo mind do you think its even remotely sensible to equate a module to a ship in the sense that 1 is better than the other when selecting capabilities?? Ok lets break it down primitive style for you Captain Stupid, 1 module or many modules? who wins???? So how are you going to say

Ok now that we got that over and next question. Why do you feel your fail analysis "If the BEST counter to a certain ship is the ship itself then it is broken" is the end all be all of game mechanics mantra? The ECM has a percentage chance of jamming its target based on skillz and target type. ECCM decreases that chance. Neither is absolute. Obviously bringing your own EWAR ship is a good start towards FITTING A BALANCED FLEET. not introducing game breaking mechanics

you're a complete nubcake

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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I'm still not sure how I feel about the falcon.

It is the embodyment of specialization, which means ccp is going to nerf it regardless of what is said in this thread (see nanos).

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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It has no tank! Of any kind! 1 extender or 1 plate isn't a real tank, it's a "ok now I feel a LITTLE better about taking it out..." As such, they melt melt melt when targeted. And targeted often they are. (recon overview ftw)

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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If you have a fairly large engagement, say 15 v 15, one falcon will definitly help one side win, but not by much, and everybody is gona get pew pew.
So why are people ****ed?

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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SO, my argument against the falcon is that it is not fun in smallg ang situations AND can be setup to do its jamming at 200km. I think that the falconw ould be fine if the range was lowered. No other recon can strike fromt hat far

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Originally by: reivol

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For all of you, that wanted to nerf falcon and saying it's the same as nerfing nano, please ask yourselves :
- have you ever seen a gang full of falcon ?
- have you ever seen a solo falcon hunting in belts ?

The problem with nano was that they can do many things at one time :
- they can do great dps
- while avoiding every damage for every other kind of ships (but one or two)
- while being able to dictate range
- while being able to choose it's target
- while being able to flee away if wanted to
- they can fly and hunt solo
- they're mandatory in a any gang (even being better than inty's)
- they can cross even the most large hostile camp without a sweat

Falcon, in the other hand, does only one thing, but does it great : jamming .. and no other ships are better at jamming than falcons Yes that's right, but that's not a reason to nerf it
Or you'll have to nerf logistics too, because no other ship can be better at repping than logistics
And you'll have to nerf titan too, because no other ship can be better at wiping an entire fleet

And you'll have to nerf hulks too, because no other ship can be better at mining ... Well, of course, roids haven't access to this forum, have they ? so they can't whine and say how they haven't any counter to hulks and dies horribly fast as soon as a hulk enter a system

...

and please, learn, perma-jamming is not a reality, not by far... Perhaps one falcon can jam 90% of the time one other ship, yes, if it's lucky ... so disabling only one other ship in the hostile fleet, but then, the falcon itself serve no other purpose and so in terms of dps warfare he is kind of disabled too ...

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: baltec1

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I would have thought you were smart enough to know how to use them.

Its simple, slower ships such as battleships, BC and even cruisers can fit ECCM rather than a web which will be of little to no use on the slower ships since nothing gets into web range unless its a blaster boat.

Now you have a large amount of ECCM which can be concentrated onto whichever ship is being jammed by any ECM. Depending on the size of your fleet and how many ECM ships the ememy have you can literaly turn a falcon into a useless hunk of expencive metal and keep the fleets firepower/RR intact.


Perhaps you should try this tactic and the many others in this threadnought before screaming nerf, its quite clear from your responces you have either little to no pvp experience or you have never attempted to make a real effort to counter ECM.

I am not a falcon pilot, hell I am not even a BB pilot, I just dont like flying something without any armour or firepower and use missiles which I hate. If you do somehow get falcons nerfed then its only going to make my life easyer but I just dont see why they should be nerfed when there are so many ways to counter them.

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LoL, sorry but I'm pretty sure you haven't actually done this.

1. slower ships such as BS and BC don't fit webs normally anyway. It's not like eccm is free slot like you're trying to make it out to be.

2. The coordination of who is getting jammed in a bigger fight, time to lock him, using special broadcasts for remote eccm (this you havent even explained wich is why I'm certain you havent actually tried this and are just theory-crafting) and at the same time shooting primaries is just too much. Simple solution is: BRING YOUR OWN FALCON. End of story. You know why? Because every time you DONT encounter a falcon YOU will now have an advantage instead of having eccm sitting there useless in the mids of half your fleet.

3. Perhaps I shouldnt try this tactic because it's made up and it's not even good. I'll just bring more falcons and get it over with. You can fiddle around with your remote eccm all day if you like. You're just plain wrong about this.

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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Originally by: Wideen

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Seeing as there are 14 pages of replies makes me think that there is truth to this

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Or just lots of people argueing against it.

The fact of the matter is that, post nerf, the falcon will be one of the only remaining useful recons, if not the ONLY remaining useful recon.

So instead of nerfing the falcon... BOOST RECONS.

Nerfs fail. Boosts win.

There are better ways to keep eve changing than nerf the game to blandness.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Chr0nosX

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You bring your own falcon it is useful in itself not just for countering ecm like eccm. Also if you let the other guys falcon decloak first you can decloak and jam him.

P.S. Using long words does not make you look clever.

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QFT. THIS is exactly the point falcon-fans always try to avoid. The falcon itself is a GREAT asset while an ECCM is NOT. No fleet command will equip his fleet with ECCM instead of just bringing more falcons as ECM defense. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron. True story.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: baltec1

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I would have thought you were smart enough to know how to use them.

Its simple, slower ships such as battleships, BC and even cruisers can fit ECCM rather than a web which will be of little to no use on the slower ships since nothing gets into web range unless its a blaster boat.

Now you have a large amount of ECCM which can be concentrated onto whichever ship is being jammed by any ECM. Depending on the size of your fleet and how many ECM ships the ememy have you can literaly turn a falcon into a useless hunk of expencive metal and keep the fleets firepower/RR intact.


Perhaps you should try this tactic and the many others in this threadnought before screaming nerf, its quite clear from your responces you have either little to no pvp experience or you have never attempted to make a real effort to counter ECM.

I am not a falcon pilot, hell I am not even a BB pilot, I just dont like flying something without any armour or firepower and use missiles which I hate. If you do somehow get falcons nerfed then its only going to make my life easyer but I just dont see why they should be nerfed when there are so many ways to counter them.

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LoL, sorry but I'm pretty sure you haven't actually done this.

1. slower ships such as BS and BC don't fit webs normally anyway. It's not like eccm is free slot like you're trying to make it out to be.

2. The coordination of who is getting jammed in a bigger fight, time to lock him, using special broadcasts for remote eccm (this you havent even explained wich is why I'm certain you havent actually tried this and are just theory-crafting) and at the same time shooting primaries is just too much. Simple solution is: BRING YOUR OWN FALCON. End of story. You know why? Because every time you DONT encounter a falcon YOU will now have an advantage instead of having eccm sitting there useless in the mids of half your fleet.

3. Perhaps I shouldnt try this tactic because it's made up and it's not even good. I'll just bring more falcons and get it over with. You can fiddle around with your remote eccm all day if you like. You're just plain wrong about this.

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Perhaps you should stay out of 0.0 and large blobs because you realy dont deserve to be there if you are unwilling to adapt.

Then again, after showing a total lack of knolage on how fleets work in alliences in all areas I am sure you are just an empire wuss who is just trolling.

1. communication in fleets is done via TS, Vent or EVE voice. This means instantly knowing who needs repping, primary targets and reporting who is jammed.

2. I fly amarr ships which are well known for their lack of mid slots, yet I can easily fit 1 remote ECCM. It is not hard so you have no excuse.

3. massive blobs are to be avoided, if you cant avoid it then remember that ALL ships are in the same position as you. A falcon in this situation is next to useless since it cant switch targets quickly and has the firepower of a butterfly

4. I dont think you have ever faced a falcon before, hell I dont think you even PVP.

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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Baltec, you're a complete nub that always brought caracals to fleet fights when you were in PA, which was only a couple months ago i may add. You're talking out of your ass here, and it smells.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/08/2008 17:01:43

Originally by: Matrixcvd

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R u special or somethin? What part of your wakkadoo mind do you think its even remotely sensible to equate a module to a ship in the sense that 1 is better than the other when selecting capabilities?? Ok lets break it down primitive style for you Captain Stupid, 1 module or many modules? who wins???? So how are you going to say

Ok now that we got that over and next question. Why do you feel your fail analysis "If the BEST counter to a certain ship is the ship itself then it is broken" is the end all be all of game mechanics mantra? The ECM has a percentage chance of jamming its target based on skillz and target type. ECCM decreases that chance. Neither is absolute. Obviously bringing your own EWAR ship is a good start towards FITTING A BALANCED FLEET. not introducing game breaking mechanics

you're a complete nubcake

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Aw thats cute. Whats the matter? Afraid that your going to lose another FOTM tool in eve? You're about to lose one soon. I know it's hard for you to understand when you're flying in FOTM-ship fleets powered by GTC's 24/7 but not all eve are FOTM chasers. Glad we cleared that first.

Now, your whole discussion about 1 module vs more modules is irrelevant. Why? Because modules get bonuses from ships. So it is more sensible to actually compare 1 ship to another or a fleet of 10 mixed ships vs another fleet of 10. I dont know but YOU might be too special to understand this.

With that in mind if you have a fleet of say 15 and you need one more pilot you will pick a falcon instead of trying to eccm all 15 in your fleet. If you dont grasp this then youre utterly stupid.
What does this mean? Falcons counter falcons, eccm does not. Simple.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/08/2008 17:01:43

Originally by: Matrixcvd

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R u special or somethin? What part of your wakkadoo mind do you think its even remotely sensible to equate a module to a ship in the sense that 1 is better than the other when selecting capabilities?? Ok lets break it down primitive style for you Captain Stupid, 1 module or many modules? who wins???? So how are you going to say

Ok now that we got that over and next question. Why do you feel your fail analysis "If the BEST counter to a certain ship is the ship itself then it is broken" is the end all be all of game mechanics mantra? The ECM has a percentage chance of jamming its target based on skillz and target type. ECCM decreases that chance. Neither is absolute. Obviously bringing your own EWAR ship is a good start towards FITTING A BALANCED FLEET. not introducing game breaking mechanics

you're a complete nubcake

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Aw thats cute. Whats the matter? Afraid that your going to lose another FOTM tool in eve? You're about to lose one soon. I know it's hard for you to understand when you're flying in FOTM-ship fleets powered by GTC's 24/7 but not all eve are FOTM chasers. Glad we cleared that first.

Now, your whole discussion about 1 module vs more modules is irrelevant. Why? Because modules get bonuses from ships. So it is more sensible to actually compare 1 ship to another or a fleet of 10 mixed ships vs another fleet of 10. I dont know but YOU might be too special to understand this.

With that in mind if you have a fleet of say 15 and you need one more pilot you will pick a falcon instead of trying to eccm all 15 in your fleet. If you dont grasp this then youre utterly stupid.
What does this mean? Falcons counter falcons, eccm does not. Simple.

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oh god you are fail. So now you chose between a person and a mod? so you start your day going, I need 15 people, but if one moar person comes we have to deciede to bring him over another ship? do you know how stupid you are or do you just wake up and go, "F-it nothin i can do today about it" and does that happen everyday?

Falcons bring no additional DPS, they can scout, provide warp toos, have extremely low HP and offer little tank. There soul purpose is to stop the other side from shooting. A normal Falcon, can do that to with generally 5 jammer slots on a percetage chance basis. Good way of mitigating a falcon, is to bring your own. Just like when you need to out DPS your opponent you bring moar guns, or out speed your opponent you bring moar nano... either way.. your a complete moron and flash the FOTM whenever you get yourself pwn'd.

I have recon V i have max skillz i can remove 3 to 4 targets from most fights. Thats it, i provide no extra DPS... part of the game. If you can't handle that you need to cry to mom and not to the forums.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/08/2008 17:01:43

Originally by: Matrixcvd

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R u special or somethin? What part of your wakkadoo mind do you think its even remotely sensible to equate a module to a ship in the sense that 1 is better than the other when selecting capabilities?? Ok lets break it down primitive style for you Captain Stupid, 1 module or many modules? who wins???? So how are you going to say

Ok now that we got that over and next question. Why do you feel your fail analysis "If the BEST counter to a certain ship is the ship itself then it is broken" is the end all be all of game mechanics mantra? The ECM has a percentage chance of jamming its target based on skillz and target type. ECCM decreases that chance. Neither is absolute. Obviously bringing your own EWAR ship is a good start towards FITTING A BALANCED FLEET. not introducing game breaking mechanics

you're a complete nubcake

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Aw thats cute. Whats the matter? Afraid that your going to lose another FOTM tool in eve? You're about to lose one soon. I know it's hard for you to understand when you're flying in FOTM-ship fleets powered by GTC's 24/7 but not all eve are FOTM chasers. Glad we cleared that first.

Now, your whole discussion about 1 module vs more modules is irrelevant. Why? Because modules get bonuses from ships. So it is more sensible to actually compare 1 ship to another or a fleet of 10 mixed ships vs another fleet of 10. I dont know but YOU might be too special to understand this.

With that in mind if you have a fleet of say 15 and you need one more pilot you will pick a falcon instead of trying to eccm all 15 in your fleet. If you dont grasp this then youre utterly stupid.
What does this mean? Falcons counter falcons, eccm does not. Simple.

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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Originally by: baltec1

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Baltec, you're a complete nub that always brought caracals to fleet fights when you were in PA, which was only a couple months ago i may add. You're talking out of your ass here, and it smells.

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And yet dispite being forced to fly such crappy ships due to a lack of all amarr ships and parts I learned how to counter ECM.

I have yet to hear either you or Lyria bring up any viable reason the tactic I use wont work for you. The only people at falt here are you two who whine about a paper thin ship with the offencive power of a pebble. If you are just going to sit there and ignore everyone telling you how to beat ECM then you deserve everything you get.

I dont see how either of you can be taken seriously after comments like "I wont use ECCM because it will be useless most of the time". Bit of a contradiction dont you think? Why exactly does a ship need a nerf if you feel it dosnt justify fitting a modual on a few ships in your gangs?

Originally by: baltec1

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... with the offensive power of a pebble.

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Originally by: Borat Sangdiev

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There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.

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Originally by: tuxsmouf

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ship. During a battle of several ships, if your ship has a anti-jam strengh > 14, almost no falcon pilot will be able to perma jam you (for me it's 100% of the time).

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Falcons bring no additional DPS, they can scout, provide warp toos, have extremely low HP and offer little tank. There soul purpose is to stop the other side from shooting. A normal Falcon, can do that to with generally 5 jammer slots on a percetage chance basis. Good way of mitigating a falcon, is to bring your own. Just like when you need to out DPS your opponent you bring moar guns, or out speed your opponent you bring moar nano... either way.. your a complete moron and flash the FOTM whenever you get yourself pwn'd.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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I really try to take your responses with a grain of salt - I DO but the nerf threads you pop up in tend to take the revolving door style of argument.

My stance is fairly simple - firstly the falcon is not the ONLY or even the most effective counter to a falcon. In fact simply SHOOTING the falcon is the most effective counter in the most general sense. ECCM facilitates this shooting function quite nicely and as such it stands to reason that the single best counter to a falcon is an ECCM fitted ship with sufficient range to make the falcon run crying for the hills. I understand ECCM has little utility for most ships - my suggestion is rather than swinging the nerf bat around like it's the only way to resolve a problem try BOOSTING the couter. Making ECCM a sensor booster mod means it's going to work very well with the current best counter - afterall sniper ships will have sensor boosters and one cannot argue against the utility of the modules. If that still proves insufficient THEN you look at the ship itself - ratchet down the bonus gradually. The falcon was never used at 10% jammer strength but 15% would be approaching a finer balance - especially with boosted ECCM thrown into the mix.

It's not that I don't empathize with the annoyance of falcons - even as a caldri pilot i've been on the wrong side of a falcon more than once. I'm just irritated that the only solution people can see to an issue of balance is "nerf the thing that works" rather than "boost the thing that doesn't work". If you people have you're way we can ensure that the recon line of ships will be relegated to hanger queens.

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Originally by: tuxsmouf

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So you see, there's always a way. Just think instead of complaining...

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/08/2008 11:31:48

Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Falcons bring no additional DPS, they can scout, provide warp toos, have extremely low HP and offer little tank. There soul purpose is to stop the other side from shooting. A normal Falcon, can do that to with generally 5 jammer slots on a percetage chance basis. Good way of mitigating a falcon, is to bring your own. Just like when you need to out DPS your opponent you bring moar guns, or out speed your opponent you bring moar nano... either way.. your a complete moron and flash the FOTM whenever you get yourself pwn'd.

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You said it yourself. A good way (actually the best way) to counter a falcon is to bring a falcon.

But then youre claiming that you need to bring more dps to out dps and try to compare the two cases. Epic fail. You know why? There are several ways of defeating a gang with higher dps with LESS dps in a very effective way. You can for example jam them to crap and kill them one by one while that cant do shit. Guess what? DPS has more then one counter and it is not nessesarily DPS that is the BEST one.
In the case of the falcon the BEST counter IS the falcon ITSELF. IT IS OVERPOWERED. And I will laugh at you next nerf aswell just as I am today when your little FOTM is taken from you. You people had the same bullshit arguments about nanos a year ago. Back then I was the moron, we'll the shoe seems to be on the other foot now eh? LoL, kthxbai.

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