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Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:13:00 - [91] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Yea, so the Falcon can jam you - it sure cant kill you. Nope, but the rest of his gang that you sure as hell can't kill can kill you with no problem. We aren't talking about solo PvP here, we are talking about gang PvP. Well, if its small gang you can um like bring your own falcons?? This is exactly the reason why nano's were nerfed. Because the only counter (According to the dev's) Was that the only counter was another nano. Since nano's were overpowered because of that reason it stands to reason falcons are as well. OK by now you're just flat out lying. Read the dev blog. I will be waiting for your apology for saying I am lying.
Salvar Ar'adim State Property	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:23:00 - [92] Edited by: Salvar Ar''adim on 29/07/2008 18:24:11 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Yea, so the Falcon can jam you - it sure cant kill you. Nope, but the rest of his gang that you sure as hell can't kill can kill you with no problem. We aren't talking about solo PvP here, we are talking about gang PvP. Well, if its small gang you can um like bring your own falcons?? This is exactly the reason why nano's were nerfed. Because the only counter (According to the dev's) Was that the only counter was another nano. Since nano's were overpowered because of that reason it stands to reason falcons are as well. OK by now you're just flat out lying. Read the dev blog. I will be waiting for your apology for saying I am lying. I think he means about the falcon. You may have heard of ECCM, plus, Ancient Chinese Proverb: A damped falcon jams no targets Just because you can't think of any counters doesn't mean there aren't any.... ______ Salvar Ar'Adim [RLLUP]State Property "You better get down, or you gonna lay down!"
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:25:00 - [93] Fighting a bookmarking falcon This has multiple issues. First you must have bookmarks in the same system that the falcon does. This is unlikely. Second your bookmarks must be within range of the falcons bookmarks. This is even MORE unlikely. Third You must be packing enough ECCM (Probably 2 of them) to make sure that if you DO happen to have a bookmark within range of the falcons bookmarks that the falcon won't just jam you. Because your fitting those mods your range and accuracy is diminshed which means you have to be even CLOSER meaning the margin for error for your bookmarks being within range of the falcons is even lower. Lastly if the moon and stars happen to align and you get within range with a bookmark and get a lock the falcon simply warps to another bookmark and continues jamming your gang. He is out of commission for maybe 15 seconds. Warping. You are correct that it breaks locks but you fail to take into account that the majority of ships don't fight at that 150k to 200k range that you get to in your falcon. What does this mean? More than likely you are going to be pointed. That DOES prevent warping.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:26:00 - [94] Originally by: thisismyalt Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Yea, so the Falcon can jam you - it sure cant kill you. Nope, but the rest of his gang that you sure as hell can't kill can kill you with no problem. We aren't talking about solo PvP here, we are talking about gang PvP. Well, if its small gang you can um like bring your own falcons?? Or bring your own gang. In every fleet I am in the ECM ships are always primary and they die rather quickly.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Salvar Ar'adim Edited by: Salvar Ar''adim on 29/07/2008 18:24:11 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: thisismyalt Yea, so the Falcon can jam you - it sure cant kill you. Nope, but the rest of his gang that you sure as hell can't kill can kill you with no problem. We aren't talking about solo PvP here, we are talking about gang PvP. Well, if its small gang you can um like bring your own falcons?? This is exactly the reason why nano's were nerfed. Because the only counter (According to the dev's) Was that the only counter was another nano. Since nano's were overpowered because of that reason it stands to reason falcons are as well. OK by now you're just flat out lying. Read the dev blog. I will be waiting for your apology for saying I am lying. I think he means about the falcon. You may have heard of ECCM, plus, Ancient Chinese Proverb: A damped falcon jams no targets Just because you can't think of any counters doesn't mean there aren't any.... Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons. Look, let's cut this back to its fundamentals: You're a non falcon pilot who's telling me about the ways you've failed vs Falcons. I'm a Falcon pilot who's telling you about the ways that other pilots have - in my personal experience - succeeded vs Falcons. Who is best qualified to pronounce on whether the Falcon is overpowered? No matter how passionately you defend the fact of your failures - and believe me when I say that I'm convinced, they don't change the fact of the possibility of success. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:58:00 - [97] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Fighting a bookmarking falcon This has multiple issues. First you must have bookmarks in the same system that the falcon does. This is unlikely. Second your bookmarks must be within range of the falcons bookmarks. This is even MORE unlikely. Third You must be packing enough ECCM (Probably 2 of them) to make sure that if you DO happen to have a bookmark within range of the falcons bookmarks that the falcon won't just jam you. Because your fitting those mods your range and accuracy is diminshed which means you have to be even CLOSER meaning the margin for error for your bookmarks being within range of the falcons is even lower. Lastly if the moon and stars happen to align and you get within range with a bookmark and get a lock the falcon simply warps to another bookmark and continues jamming your gang. He is out of commission for maybe 15 seconds. Warping. You are correct that it breaks locks but you fail to take into account that the majority of ships don't fight at that 150k to 200k range that you get to in your falcon. What does this mean? More than likely you are going to be pointed. That DOES prevent warping. A question: do you habitualy make bookmarks around gates and stations? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Borat Sangdiev	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:04:00 - [98] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons. Look, let's cut this back to its fundamentals: You're a non falcon pilot who's telling me about the ways you've failed vs Falcons. I'm a Falcon pilot who's telling you about the ways that other pilots have - in my personal experience - succeeded vs Falcons. Who is best qualified to pronounce on whether the Falcon is overpowered? No matter how passionately you defend the fact of your failures - and believe me when I say that I'm convinced, they don't change the fact of the possibility of success. Ignatious' point made perfect sense. Why do you try to counter it with sycophantic BS?
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:04:00 - [99] Edited by: Malcanis on 29/07/2008 19:05:05 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons. T2 Damps can reach out to [Optimal = 30Km 1.5 1.2 1.17] + [Falloff = 60Km 1.5] = 153.18Km right now. I trust you will keep your promise. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:05:00 - [100] Originally by: Borat Sangdiev Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons. Look, let's cut this back to its fundamentals: You're a non falcon pilot who's telling me about the ways you've failed vs Falcons. I'm a Falcon pilot who's telling you about the ways that other pilots have - in my personal experience - succeeded vs Falcons. Who is best qualified to pronounce on whether the Falcon is overpowered? No matter how passionately you defend the fact of your failures - and believe me when I say that I'm convinced, they don't change the fact of the possibility of success. Ignatious' point made perfect sense. Why do you try to counter it with sycophantic BS? See the post above for the hard, numerical facts, you semi-evolved simian. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:09:00 - [101] i hate to say this, but if the nerf to nano goes thru, too many people are going to be complaining about how difficult it is to tackle them since they go so slow now and only inty's will be able to get out to them fast enough. Am I calling for a nerf, not really but i wouldnt be surprised with how stupid CCP is to bend to the next nerf falcon wave and make the ECM optimals at 25km just cause CCP NOZH thinks 500m/s is an apprieciable boost in speed... i wont be around for it and no you can't have my stuff
Borat Sangdiev	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:10:00 - [102] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Borat Sangdiev Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ignatious Mei Falcons/arazu's SHOULD be the anti falcon ship but unfortunately they are not. I would LOVE for them to be but damps don't have the range. It's hard enough to get close enough to get damps on them as it is now, ocne the speed nerf hits its going to be impossible. Increase damp range to 150k and I will shut up and never say another word about falcons. Look, let's cut this back to its fundamentals: You're a non falcon pilot who's telling me about the ways you've failed vs Falcons. I'm a Falcon pilot who's telling you about the ways that other pilots have - in my personal experience - succeeded vs Falcons. Who is best qualified to pronounce on whether the Falcon is overpowered? No matter how passionately you defend the fact of your failures - and believe me when I say that I'm convinced, they don't change the fact of the possibility of success. Ignatious' point made perfect sense. Why do you try to counter it with sycophantic BS? See the post above for the hard, numerical facts, you semi-evolved simian. you show no substantiated facts and counter arguements with assumptions on how much experience other people have vs you with falcons. Weak & lame on your end my balding little buddy.
Borat Sangdiev	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:18:00 - [103] Originally by: Matrixcvd i hate to say this, but if the nerf to nano goes thru, too many people are going to be complaining about how difficult it is to tackle them since they go so slow now and only inty's will be able to get out to them fast enough. Am I calling for a nerf, not really but i wouldnt be surprised with how stupid CCP is to bend to the next nerf falcon wave and make the ECM optimals at 25km just cause CCP NOZH thinks 500m/s is an apprieciable boost in speed... i wont be around for it and no you can't have my stuff ecm is already more effective than other ewar. no need for the falcon to have a range of 150+ km. thats just overkill and ***** tbh.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Borat Sangdiev you show no substantiated facts and counter arguements with assumptions on how much experience other people have vs you with falcons. Weak & lame on your end my balding little buddy. T2 Damps can reach out to [Optimal = 30Km 1.5 1.2 1.17] + [Falloff = 60Km 1.5] = 153.18Km right now. Refute or STFU CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Borat Sangdiev	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:23:00 - [105] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Borat Sangdiev you show no substantiated facts and counter arguements with assumptions on how much experience other people have vs you with falcons. Weak & lame on your end my balding little buddy. T2 Damps can reach out to [Optimal = 30Km 1.5 1.2 1.17] + [Falloff = 60Km 1.5] = 153.18Km right now. Refute or STFU what is an arazu's targetting range?
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:24:00 - [106] Originally by: Borat Sangdiev Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Borat Sangdiev you show no substantiated facts and counter arguements with assumptions on how much experience other people have vs you with falcons. Weak & lame on your end my balding little buddy. T2 Damps can reach out to [Optimal = 30Km 1.5 1.2 1.17] + [Falloff = 60Km 1.5] = 153.18Km right now. Refute or STFU what is an arazu's targetting range? What is a Falcon's targetting range? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:26:00 - [107] Originally by: Borat Sangdiev Originally by: Matrixcvd i hate to say this, but if the nerf to nano goes thru, too many people are going to be complaining about how difficult it is to tackle them since they go so slow now and only inty's will be able to get out to them fast enough. Am I calling for a nerf, not really but i wouldnt be surprised with how stupid CCP is to bend to the next nerf falcon wave and make the ECM optimals at 25km just cause CCP NOZH thinks 500m/s is an apprieciable boost in speed... i wont be around for it and no you can't have my stuff ecm is already more effective than other ewar. no need for the falcon to have a range of 150+ km. thats just overkill and ***** tbh. My apoc will beat down that falcon with ease and take no damage at all.
Thorek Ironbrow Caldari Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:36:00 - [108] nerf gallente to the point of extinction plztbhkthxbaiftwroflmaoDIE! ____________________________ Originally by: Elirel this thread is about serious Internet Spaceship stuff. [/
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:39:00 - [109] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/07/2008 19:43:04 Originally by: Derek Sigres ECM works well on several of the HAC's - or at least the Caldari HAC's both of which have the ability to engage in the native range of the Falcon and a fairly high sensor strength. They can work on Caldari HACs and the Ishtar maybe, the other HACs either lack sensor strength, free midslots or both. Amarr and Minmatar HAC pilots do not have that option. Again, judging by personal experience if your sensor strength is below 20 it is not worth bothering, but your opinion may vary. Originally by: Derek Sigres And in a gang fight the falcon is going to ECM the biggest DPS ships first. Yep I can perma jam a frigate - but unless someone needs to make a quick getaway from a tackler I don't bother. I almost always try to leave a jammer free also - never know when I myself need to make a quick getaway. Just as an example, if I am fitting 3 magnetrometic ecm modules, and I have 3 gallente targets, 2x Thorax and 1x Mega, my priority would be the 2 Thorax, for the simple reason I can reliably take more dps from the field that way. Usually 1 module is enough for a Thorax since they wont fit ECCM at all, so I get the most bang for the buck jamming them, with some luck I got the third module free to put on the mega. If you run the numbers for ecm, you should take potential dps and the number of jammers you need to be pretty sure to jam it into account, in the above example thats clearly the Thoraxes. Now if we look at BCs, I'd try to jam BCs over BSs naturally, because if you factor in their sensor strength, the number of ECCMs they could probably fit, and their dps, it makes no sense to try on a BS if there are BCs on the field you have a fitting racial for. For tacklers, I usually have a dedicated multispec module, if there are no tacklers I use that on targets where the last racial failed if I dont have anymore. Originally by: Derek Sigres For more fun, try using Stealth bombers for the falcon interdiction tasks. Yes, I love the manticore for that, if you're fitting ECCM it forces him to either dedicate unreasonable numbers of jammers to your ship, or bite it and take the missiles. PS: thread title is a bit misleading, it should read "boost eccm"?
Salvar Ar'adim State Property	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:54:00 - [110] Recipe for Falcon Pie: 1 cup cerberus 1 pinch ECCM 1 dash of 10mn MWD cook for 10 seconds ______ Salvar Ar'Adim [RLLUP]State Property "You better get down, or you gonna lay down!"

BABARR PARABELUM-Project	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:32:00 - [111] Yes the falcon is a pain,and more since CCP boosted the ECM target jammer strenght from 10 to 20% where NOBODY ask for this boost ! ... "Si vis pacem, parabellum"
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:36:00 - [112] Originally by: BABARR Yes the falcon is a pain,and more since CCP boosted the ECM target jammer strenght from 10 to 20% where NOBODY ask for this boost ! It was 15% - 20%. The reasoning was that the combat oriented Recon (The Rook) had better jamming ability in every respect (lock times/range/jammer strength) than the ewar oriented Recon (the Falcon)
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.07.29 22:01:00 - [113] fit one ECCM module, ask a friend with a spare mid to give remote ECCM... the E-war is an option and has been greatly underestimated. If you want a good Gang ship, then you need to worry about all holes in your tank, including cap, dmg resists and e-war resilience. ECCM works! go and try it
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:09:00 - [114] Is there something about Sensor Backup Arrays, ECCM modules, Projected ECCM, and Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity modules that the OP, and other posters do not understand? Even Falcons and Rooks will fit sensor backups or eccm modules because they will also be primaried by opposing jammers. Ship have a chance of not being jammed. Ships have no chance of avoiding a remote sensor dampener or turret disruptor activation. ECM has already gone through at least two major nerfs. Currently, its only practical to be used on certain ships. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:11:00 - [115] Originally by: Ignatious Mei This is exactly the reason why nano's were nerfed. Because the only counter (According to the dev's) Was that the only counter was another nano. Since nano's were overpowered because of that reason it stands to reason falcons are as well. The Dev Blog reason was that the speeds were, and I quote, "ludicrous." The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:55:00 - [116] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Originally by: Ignatious Mei This is exactly the reason why nano's were nerfed. Because the only counter (According to the dev's) Was that the only counter was another nano. Since nano's were overpowered because of that reason it stands to reason falcons are as well. The Dev Blog reason was that the speeds were, and I quote, "ludicrous." "As it stands, however, the previously mentioned arduous and crafty pilot wonÆt get to his revenge, WhatÆs more is that speed, alas, can only be countered properly with yet more speed and so on in a dreadfully unidirectional tipping of the scales. There is no tension, just increasing slack. This is bad." Please read the underlined part.
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.30 01:13:00 - [117] Quote: Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability. At the office we refer to this as ôludicrous speedö. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.30 01:19:00 - [118] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Quote: Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability. At the office we refer to this as ôludicrous speedö. I wasnt saying you were wrong, I was saying that I was also correct.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.30 02:19:00 - [119] falcon needs to go back to 10% strength bonus (as opposed to scorps 15% and rooks 20%) /thread
Xiaodown XERCORE	Posted - 2008.07.30 02:48:00 - [120] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: BABARR Yes the falcon is a pain,and more since CCP boosted the ECM target jammer strenght from 10 to 20% where NOBODY ask for this boost ! It was 15% - 20%. The reasoning was that the combat oriented Recon (The Rook) had better jamming ability in every respect (lock times/range/jammer strength) than the ewar oriented Recon (the Falcon) It was NOT 15%, it was 10%. You fail. Learn before speaking. Proof is here: http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/reconships/caldari/11957.asp CCP haven't bothered to update their database yet. And there was was a VERY BIG BONUS THAT THE FALCON HAD that you're forgetting. The Rook can't fly cloaked. Plus it only had 2 low slots at the time. It used to be essentially a cloaking blackbird, which was useful, but not overpowered. Crap DPS but good ewar. Now, it's an I-Win button vs. small gangs. ~X -- Sig under construction.



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