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Lillian D'Florite	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:54:00 - [421] Originally by: Synapse Archae Hello kitty online indeed. Speed 5 years building a hardcore PVP population and then nerf it all to hell by removing the most challenging parts of combat and adding safe zones. GG. I'm off to look for a real open PVP game :( Don't think I'm going to find one. I had to laugh.... hardcore pvp? ... define hardcore please..... ganking EVERY single industrial in highsec with destroyers and costing nothing but some sec status (which can be gained though pie 0.0 npc ratting) is hardcore?... oh as for a "pvp game" ... go pirates of the burning seas.... they are "hardcore pvp"... but yeah, they just had a server merge since hardcore pvp doesnt pay =P
Cassandra Beckinsale	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:56:00 - [422] Finally! Removing the Insurance is the best thing since the invention of Internet. Now suicide gankers can actually start playing EVE like it was meant to be played lol. I'm really happy for these changes. Faction items will now become actually useful. What was the fun of having Alqueada after your expensive ship? What was the fun of flying it? For me, it was way too risky and not fun at all. This finally brings sense to Secure Systems, which were everything but secure. Now there is space for both PVPers and Carebears. You don't like it? Go play WOW. :P If you think EVE is only about PVP you're wrong, I don't understand where ppl get this ideias. I don't understand also why should anyone do PVP in EVE, why should a trader / manufacturer do pvp? Oh yeah!
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:57:00 - [423] Boo freekin hoo. So you have to be a little more discerning now in your targets is all, how terrible.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:14:00 - [424] Edited by: Qui Shon on 06/08/2008 19:16:09 Originally by: Esmenet CCP didn't all of a sudden decide Veldspar will be worth such and such. I would argue that in a way they did, and continue to do so. No, not literally such and such a price of course, but up and down certainly. They set all drop rates/amounts, all spawn rates/amounts. They created the drone regions. How much of which mineral in that particular drone battleship? How often and in what places or missions does that BS spawn? How far and through which area of space is it from drone regions to suitable manufacturing and distribution systems? You know exactly how much are L4's looted, and how much of that is reprocessed at current values, so if you change drop rates, you should be able to predict the mineral flow changes your drop rate change will cause. To an extent, at least. How many roids that respawn how often? etc etc. We exploit the environment and each other, but CCP creates and modifies the environment. Is it hard to predict what the players will do? Maybe, but I dunno. It doesn't seem very hard to figure out that if you introduce new areas where a primary source of income will be large quantities of highends, that those areas will be used and this will reduce highend price. Or that if you remove price caps on minerals, certain ones will go up. Especially easy since you can check just how many shuttles/similar stuff were recycled and at which local mineral market price that recycling started or peaked. Will every prediction be spot on? Of course not. But they don't have to be.
low26 Caldari Politically Incorrect	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:29:00 - [425] My question to CCP is when are they going to "Fix" empire war decÆs. Why should someone simply be able to corp. hop, or join an alliance to escape a war? I am perfectly fine with war-decking carebears that **** me off but, it is too easy for them to get out of it. So in other words there is now little option for retribution now. So when will they fix the clearly broken war-deck mechanic? My opinion is they wonÆt. CCP now cares more about dollars than their game, and the majority of their dollars are now with the carebears thus all the nerfs. The behavior of CCP is the saddest part of this all.
Dominious New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:39:00 - [426] Originally by: Esmenet If you mine in high sec atm you are either a utter fool or a macrominer/afk miner. And this attitude is precisely what's making low end ores so valuable, the fact that you think it's utterly foolish to mine. Quote: The only reason you would be willing to spend your isk making time earning less than half of what a semicompetent mission*** is getting would be because you can do it with a macro. We the playerbase did not decide to set missionpayouts like they are now. So your statement is completely wrong. I was referring to low end ore prices, not mission payouts. That's a whole different story altogether. In any case mission runners may have a reconsideration once this change is applied to TQ. It creates a sense of security in low sec, and if it holds some water may actually keep some players in low sec. This is what this change is aiming for. Quote:** No its not a symptom of overhunting of low sec. You can never make low sec safe enough to make the tiny bonus better than missioning without any interruptions in high sec. Doing it in high sec also has the added bonus that you dont really have to pay attention to anything and can do some forumwhoring or watch tv while doing what many(most?) consider a boring activity to get isk. The problem with the status quo is that low sec is too risky at the moment, precisely because pirates run unchecked. A bulk has now crept into high sec looking for cheap and easy kills. Part of the problem is that it is unreasonably difficult to challenge pirates in low sec without becoming a pirate yourself. This is a major boost to anti-piracy. And this in turn, is a major boost to PVP and piracy in low sec. The bulk of PVP is being moved to low sec, where it belongs. You can still "PVP" in high sec, in the form of suicide ganks (or whatever else) but it will suit you best to do it in low sec. I don't see anything wrong with this line of reasoning.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:41:00 - [427] For all the people saying "lol, suicide gankers are carebears, no risk to them I could bring up the fact that we all have to haul stuff time to time and don't nerf the game when you in particular suck badly at it and make it far easier to be lazy and complacent but still that's not the point... The spirit of EvE practically died with this announcement. Eve was founded on an open based PvP system where noone was safe from one another. NPC corpers were already running around with virtually no risk, now with the announcement of faster concord and no insurance for concord they'll be practically all but immune. Even if it's a personal vendetta against someone hiding in an npc corp, likelihood is you'll do far more damage to your own character and wallet then you do to them. The typical Eve PVP'er does not want safe zones, the whole point of Eve Online is the sandbox. There's two options available to them that I can see to restore balance from this horrible announcement. 1. Remove insurance altogether. 2. NPC corporation system needs completely relooking at.
Balrokenx Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:42:00 - [428] Suicide ganking is one of the things that makes eve, well eve. This just proves if you whine enough you get your way....
Reaver One Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:50:00 - [429] I think these changes are fine. I also think more changes need to be made to balance the apparent ease of mining in hi-sec. I think the following changes will go a long way to addressing the problems with resource price disparity as well. 1. Make all asteroids in hi-sec yield veldspar only. Period. 2. Make the resource yield when reprocessing modules yield primarily veldspar, with only traces of other minerals (and none of hte more expensive ones such as Mex and Zyd). Everyone should be happy.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:55:00 - [430] Edited by: Esu Nahalas on 06/08/2008 19:55:38 Hate to say, SpinDizzy, the fact that you mention "the spirit of EVE" while lamenting the crimping of your personal play-style makes you a . EVE is a game. Its spirit is to make money for CCP.

Juleko	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:02:00 - [431] I have a question - one of the things that seems to come up regularly in this debate is the notion that "what am I supposed to do about L4 CNR mission runners now?". Well, unless I'm totally confused surely the answer is: nothing? Is there a shortage of targets in low-sec or something? A L4 CNR mission runner isn't aggressing you so you have literally ZERO chance of losing anything when they're in the same system as you. Yet apparently there is a problem when you can't take out someone who is completely minding their own business. I'm not opposed to suicide ganking as a game mechanic, people who fly ridiculously expensive fit ships should always be looking over their shoulder - but the current system is so obviously broken it's not funny. The delicious irony of course is how gankers are moaning about insurance payouts being removed and/or the dynamics of ganking changing - and in the same sentence whining about "where's the risk in Eve?". Tell me, where's the risk in knowing exactly how much it will cost to kill pretty much any ship, and that if you bring sufficient numbers that this kill is a certainty? (I don't know of any fit that will withstand 6-7 Raven overheated torp volleys)....
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:09:00 - [432] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Eve was founded on an open based PvP system where noone was safe from one another. Interestingly enough, this announcement and the implementation of proposed changes won't change that one bit. You can still keep a-gankin'. Now it will actually have a cost associated to it. But, hey, that'll make it more hardcore for those hardcore enough to keep doing it.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:11:00 - [433] Originally by: Esu Nahalas Edited by: Esu Nahalas on 06/08/2008 19:55:38 Hate to say, SpinDizzy, the fact that you mention "the spirit of EVE" while lamenting the crimping of your personal play-style makes you a . EVE is a game. Its spirit is to make money for CCP. I'm not a suicide ganker, I never have been, for the 500th time, I just don't want to live in happy chappy toy land.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:15:00 - [434] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Originally by: Esu Nahalas Edited by: Esu Nahalas on 06/08/2008 19:55:38 Hate to say, SpinDizzy, the fact that you mention "the spirit of EVE" while lamenting the crimping of your personal play-style makes you a . EVE is a game. Its spirit is to make money for CCP. I'm not a suicide ganker, I never have been, for the 500th time, I just don't want to live in happy chappy toy land. So in other words, you are complaining about a change to the game that didn't affect the playstyle of you and your opponents?
Dominious New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:17:00 - [435] Originally by: 5pinDizzy I'm not a suicide ganker, I never have been, for the 500th time, I just don't want to live in happy chappy toy land. Then all is well. There will still be suicide ganks in high sec and there will still be enough mindless PVP in low/0.0 sec. In high sec, things get a bit more interesting for the criminal-minded. View it as a challenge. It's what we want; a harder Eve, no? Pirates also now get the extra bonus of facing more antipirates in lower sec.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:18:00 - [436] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: 5pinDizzy Eve was founded on an open based PvP system where noone was safe from one another. Interestingly enough, this announcement and the implementation of proposed changes won't change that one bit. You can still keep a-gankin'. Now it will actually have a cost associated to it. But, hey, that'll make it more hardcore for those hardcore enough to keep doing it. Hey, self-styled suicide-ganking "hardcore pvpers" don't want this "risk" and "cost" thing. It messes up their hairstyle. Meanwhile, most people who do real pvp (against targets that actually shoot back) find this wailing and gnashing of teeth to be quite amusing. Bring more popcorn! Cry more! It's funny how few whiners have noted on the fact that sec status hits in 0.3 and below are actually getting reduced. You'd think they would be happily going on about more pvp in lowsec... but no, apparently "pvp" for these people means something else entirely. Not sure what it is, but it probably involves a dead horse and a big stick.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:21:00 - [437] well, it wont really affect me much, since i suck at suicide attacking, lmao, yeterday i had a brutix that i needed the insurance for, and fit it with a full rack of smartbombs and looked for a target, found a Mackinaw with an assload of POS fuel and a shuttlecraft, flew towards it, and blew off the bombs, and he jumped through right afterwards, he had JUST gotten to the gate, it was like a race, so again, this wont affect me much now, woohoo, it makes it a little harder for you to suicide gank a freighter, because honestly if you think about it, it was a little to easy, you could get 12 Torp Ravens and pop a freighter hella fast, causing the billion dollar loss of the freighter itself, a tremendous loss to the pilot, and dozens of billions of damage in cargo that they cant sell anymore, which is again, a TREMENDOUS hit, and what does that person get? maybe the insurance for their freighter, what do you 12 suicide gankers get? at the MOST you lose is about i would say 1 million at the MOST, assuming you didnt get anything from the freighter at all, and being a bit more optimisitic, you get around how much? lets say theirs 12 of you, the ship had 10 billion in cargo, you guys get around 800million a piece, PLUS the insurance from your Raven, so around 900million- a billion for a measly sec status hit you can get back up in 3 days, and 1 million dollars in modules, and then you guys go and ***** when it is to easy for Mission runners to make isk without reward, uh, this is probably the most chronic case of most isk vs. the smallest amount of risk, and you guys are complaining about it 12 people who will lose nothing can screw over supplies to an entire alliance, or an entire solar system/ systemS when they suicide gank a freighter, since they move tons of resources around (and it gets annoying when ammo is running low in the system, and i have to make 5 jumps for an op/ mission) and thats completely fair, but now you guys dont get the insurance back from your ship and your job is a bit harder, and you take a bigger sec hit, and thats UNFAIR LMAO cry me a river of wannabe PVP'er tears again i say, suicide ganking is probably the safest occupation in this game, the miners / manufacturers have it rough from can flippers, scammers, and people like you, the pirates have it rough since they are evicted from all high security space, take sentry gun fire constantly, and live in lawless space (practically lawless), the mission runners have to worry about their mission being scanned down and looted / salvaged by a random person, and you suicide gankers uhh. . . . let me think . . . . . right now you lose a whopping. . . oh wait. . . . you lose your 80million insured, oh wait, fully insured . . . you take a massive sec, oh, damn no thats not so much atm . . . . even the solid MISSION runners have more risk than you do right now, hell even the Macro Miners have more risk at what they do than your "occupational hazards" i say again, cry me a river of wannabee PVP'ers tears
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:25:00 - [438] tdlr; version (i think im doing this right) the suicide ganking "pvp'ers" are crying because they wont get the insurance payout from their crap t1 fitted ships, and they might get evicted to low sec space only where the TRUE pvp'ers are
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:29:00 - [439] Well eve is probably still cold and dark. But with everyone of these nerfs (think lofty, wtz, wardec nerf, now suicide ganking) its getting more and more cuddly and homelike. At some point in time lowsec/0.0 will be the only place where pvp of any scale happens. Then what will be the difference from a pvp server in any other mmo? I think given the recent nerfs and the "rebalancing" ccp is trying to streamline their product and make it more accessible to the mob. What they forget is that eve is a niche game. Once the unconsensual pvp has gone (i estimate 1-1.5 years from now) people will want the game to actually work. (as in bugs getting fixed, lag not being so unreasonable ****ed, ui working at least 75% of the time, balance issues adressed in say less than 2 years, ...) At that point ccp will realize how good they have it now. Because on a professional level when it comes to who makes the nicest carebear-grind-mmo they'll never compete with blizzard or even other gaming companies. The only reason why people accept the sorry state of the game is because they love it and they know they can't get the same thrill out of any other game. Once that goes there'll be nothing left. Anyhow for the time thats left i'll try to make use of any still existing game mechanic to grief the shit out of that bear. I suggest you all do the same. The inevitable is just that no matter what we do about it.
Fitzwelin	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:38:00 - [440] "Oh dear EVE is changing, what ever shall I do?" All those that think EVE wont change and adapt to an ever changing gaming populace might as well quit now. Can I have your stuff? Bravo CCP for thinking about the masses and not the minority.

Wynona Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:59:00 - [441] Translation: Letting your game client turn you into a virtual sitting duck while playing afk was getting too dangerous, we're making it safer for you to play while not playing. Next thing you know Paris Hilton will be running for president. What's your favorite CCP Time Sink?
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.06 21:40:00 - [442] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mire Stoude Why is it always the pirates (suicide gankers in this particular whine) claiming to be smarter? Because they are smarter than their victims. It's just a fact. Admitting to being suicide ganked is like admitting that you're an idiot. lmao, so the person that i suicide smartbombed a few days ago (and actually succedded) was stupider than me, just because i picked him as a target, and not the iteron that i decided not to attack? when in fact he was not AFK, and was just aligning to warp out to the next gate? lmao, so now attention people, if you become a target for anyone, you are now stupider then your attacker, just because they picked YOU
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.06 21:47:00 - [443] Unf. Between nerfing nano style play, and suicide ganking, the last two things I enjoyed about this game that hadn't been nerfed have finally been nerfed. OH WELL BACK TO 9 HOUR POS GRINDS FOR ME gg CCP, I was starting to get worried that the game was getting fun again. Enough of that then... -----------
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.08.06 23:11:00 - [444] Comedy gold ,How many of your alliance mates have alts in NPC corps ? Originally by: Pesadel0 If we could wardec your corp i would surely would.
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.08.06 23:31:00 - [445] One other thing I haven't seen mentioned here yet (most likely because it would ruin the drama) is that by forfeiting insurace payouts when CONCORD gets involved, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is about the biggest anti-carebear action that CCP has taken since I started playing (about a year ago). Think about it. A carebear screws up and fires on the wrong target. CONCORDakken ensues. Carebear limps home to base in his pod and finds that no insurance is paid out on his ship. Carebear realises that in EvE, your mistakes cost you. Carebear will either accept it and be more careful of what he's shooting at, or come here to whine on the forums. Either way, looks like a win-win situation for the carebear-haters.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:02:00 - [446] High Sec suicide piracy should be a serious money LOSER unless the target is fitted with / hauling extreme wealth. (If the target does have a multi billion fit on his raven, then all bets are off....) Its that simple. If you want more freedom to blast away, get the hell out of high sec. I've been saying it for years: IGNORE the high sec carebears. I never have, and never will, comprehend why so many idiots seem OBSESSED with shooting at them. Shoot at something else. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Atsuko Yamamoto Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:08:00 - [447] Originally by: DogSlime CCP haven't nerfed suicide ganking. CCP have nerfed CHEAP, almost RISK-FREE suicide ganking. As has been stated by others, suicide ganking against high value targets will still be possible and will still be profitable. This doesn't make the game "Hello Kitty Online". Cheap suicide ganking for amusement was an exploit of the game mechanics because of insurance. It didn't add anything to the game. That having been said, it would also be nice to see CCP taking some action to stop entire corps repeatedly re-forming and corp-hopping in order to break wardecs, because this also seems like an abuse of game mechanics. /agree People don't like thinking ahead or on a bigger scale, people like getting hysterical, and no one really tries to see much more than 2 inches in from of them. The idea makes sense, it doesn't make suiciding gone, just makes you gasp work for it. And yes I know "those mission runners have no risk and all that cash and and they can just, you know, buy stuff!" and then fly it into lowsec (kaboom) and/or get hit by a coordinated high sec attack (kaboom). If they horde it all up and never use it, well, who cares? If they want be Howard Hughes let'em. And I agree with getting people out of the NPC corps and into the game, no hiding I like EVE, and honestly comparatively with most MMOs, is the least ****ed up of them. It ain't perfect but it's fun. ____________________________________ "MONKEY!!"-Gir
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:51:00 - [448] Tarminic, are you there? Can we start making NWG references yet? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:52:00 - [449] Originally by: Sergeant Spot I've been saying it for years: IGNORE the high sec carebears. Get this: if my enemies fund their PvP by L4 mission farming alts, I cannot ignore them. Their safety is a direct nerf to me. Or I am required to do L4 missions in high-sec to be competitive ISK-wise? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Clinically Gallente ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.07 01:05:00 - [450] So when they fixing lag and sov mechanics? ________________ Q. How do you clear a system of 400 Northern Monkeys? A. Remind them its not cyno jammed.



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