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Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:24:00 - [1] Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or soemthing. I can see a claok duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at findign a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:25:00 - [2] Join New Eden Research today and never worry about queues again!
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:25:00 - [3] Originally by: Bylok Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or soemthing. I can see a claok duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at findign a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed How about, no? The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:26:00 - [4] How do I grief you if you can't see me ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:27:00 - [5] Trinity Corporate Services
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:27:00 - [6] Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me Maybe if your Avatar is too ugly? The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:28:00 - [7] Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me Maybe if your Avatar is too ugly? Oh. K, nerf ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:29:00 - [8] Features and Ideas forum is the best place for this topic. That being said I can not, with the little experiance I have, say that I disagree with the concept of a skill that would allow for probing of cloak device pulses or something of the such. But it is something that should be skill intensive and not easy to perform even with maxed skills. Slade Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine. ≡v≡
InSession Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:35:00 - [9] Yeah, I'm sick of those Raven's who warp to safes and cloak. Now my probe alt is completely useless because everyone in a ratting BS fits a cloak these days. Nerf the cloaks! Although I think the OP is complaining about cloakers in his ratting system, not what I'm talking about
MidnightTrader	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:35:00 - [10] ITT dumb ideas.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:35:00 - [11]
StealthGerbils	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:39:00 - [12] Why not add probes to detect cloaked players.
Nebuchadnezzar I Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Bylok Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or soemthing. I can see a claok duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at findign a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed YOU are out of hand!
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:42:00 - [14] Edited by: Haradgrim on 16/10/2008 21:42:06 Originally by: baltec1 This. Learn to deal people; stay aligned, pay attention, fit your own cloak. All the counters are there if you want them.... As for people trying to probe cloakers.... if you aren't succeeding; your doing it wrong. Not to mention if there were no counter to being probed....well.... -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
DubanFP Caldari Evil ALT Corp Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:44:00 - [15] Edited by: DubanFP on 16/10/2008 21:45:48 Would you say the Op is a "Waz dis?" or would stick with calling him an "Ooon' Fair"? _______________ "White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't mater to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer"
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:46:00 - [16] eve forums: trolls trolling trolls about being trolled. -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ashla Chifis	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:47:00 - [17] Im out of hand? Great come back so smart. Fact is there should be no skill that does not have a counter skill. Oh and how do you grief if your cloaked easy, if in 0.0 stay cloaked and just act as a spy for reds in the area. When done for days and days straight its for sure a grief tactic not game play.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Ashla Chifis Edited by: Ashla Chifis on 16/10/2008 21:50:05 Edited by: Ashla Chifis on 16/10/2008 21:47:29 Your out of hand? Great come back so smart. Fact is there should be no skill that does not have a counter skill. Oh and how do you grief if your cloaked, easy (if in 0.0 stay cloaked) and just act as a spy for reds in the area. When done for days and days straight its for sure a grief tactic not game play. This is why I love my bomber. Im only the size of a frigate but I can lock down a system for hours at a time even if I dont kill anything!
Bazman Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:53:00 - [19] God damn those Ghost ships -----
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:57:00 - [20] you had something in your hand and it got out? so you used the now free hand to make this stupid thread? put your hand back in there so we dont see more of this crap Adapt or Die

xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 21:57:00 - [21] Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me By sitting in system, mostly AFK, for days on end in a cloaked ship. Its psychological warfare without any sort of equal counter. A cloaked command ship can effectively shutdown mining, logistic and ratting operations in a system for an indefinite period so long as a few basic principles of patience and caution are adhered to. The problem with this is that there's no counter. The cloaked ship can sit AFK for an indefinite period of time. It guerrilla warfare but with no native population to crack down on. Instead the opposition just disappears into thin air. Instead of the guerrilla being hard to find, it's completely impossible. Instead of it being challenging for the guerrilla to stay hidden, its stupidly easy. Just get up and walk away from the computer, leaving the game on. The tactic should remain in game. Logistic harassment is sound and viable strategy. It shouldn't be indefinitely un-counterable. Especially not when it involves sitting AFK in game for 20 hours a day.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Bazman God damn those Ghost ships I see what you did there... Join New Eden Research today and never worry about queues again!
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 16/10/2008 22:06:05 Cloaked guy in system = one guy, in a tech2 cruiser, which can easily be ganked for the 5 guys in local who's he's frightening. the worst he can do is watch you and grab you just as a gang is one or two jumps out, and in that case, you'll have seen them coming in your intel channels and have ran away (that's if you were paying attention, or are smart enough to have scouts posted about watching for enemy movements (after all, he took the time to sit in system scouting yous, so you can take the time to have scouts watching for his friends)). He's not gunna AFK a lone guy (afkers camp station systems, and only idiots rat in station systems (higher than average local count; attracts roaming gangs and harder to see people enter local)), because you can just use another system, and if he follows HE'S NOT **ING AFK IS HE? Seriously, it's a cloaked cruiser, grow some balls, set a trap for him, get your mates ready to warp to you and start ratting in some belts and gank the bastard. jesus you guys are weak. --------- I JUST FOUND THE GAME!**
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:10:00 - [24] Its not that one guy that does the fighting. Its as the previous post stated. Its just a guy sitting AFK 90% of the time feeding intel to other reds in system. As far as growing balls and getting him thats my point there is no way to get someone cloaked for 3 days how about learn how to read. I do not see how this can possibly as it stands add any value to the game buf for griefers.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:10:00 - [25] the op made the mistake with in 7 word in his first poast greifers... there isnt such a thing in eve as another Desu sig tells The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
Malcanis RuffRyders	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed 2007 logged in. It wants it's cloak whine back.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis 2007 logged in. It wants it's cloak whine back. when new expansion comes into TQ you deserve a medal for that!!!!! The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:26:00 - [28] cloaking does indeed need a counter. those that say its fine are crazy, plain and simple. not the least is the intell gathering methods used by alliances in regars to this. having countless alts, trial accounts strewn across 0.0 or in empire gathering enemy movements without recourse is silly at best. Please, jump into traffic
Malcanis RuffRyders	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Gonada cloaking does indeed need a counter. those that say its fine are crazy, plain and simple. not the least is the intell gathering methods used by alliances in regars to this. having countless alts, trial acc null ounts strewn across 0.0 or in empire gathering enemy movements without recourse is silly at best. OK let's make it so that cloaked ships move at -75% speed, and can't target or activate modules, and can't lock until 15-30 seconds after uncloaking.
DubanFP Caldari Evil ALT Corp Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis OK let's make it so that cloaked ships move at -75% speed, and can't target or activate modules, and can't lock until 15-30 seconds after uncloaking. Sounds a bit weak... Lets keep them from warping out too and it should be fair. _______________ "White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't mater to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer"

Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:33:00 - [31] Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me I have no idea __________ Originally by: Tortun Nahme nah, that is the true badge of a forum warrior, to draw the humorous ire of the devs
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:34:00 - [32] Originally by: Gonada cloaking does indeed need a counter. those that say its fine are crazy, plain and simple. not the least is the intell gathering methods used by alliances in regars to this. having countless alts, trial accounts strewn across 0.0 or in empire gathering enemy movements without recourse is silly at best. trial accounts cannot train the skills needed. I also do not want my stealth bomber nerfed because it intimidates you. Man I realy have the urge to let loose my old swg waaambulance...
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Bylok Its not that one guy that does the fighting. Its as the previous post stated. Its just a guy sitting AFK 90% of the time feeding intel to other reds in system. As far as growing balls and getting him thats my point there is no way to get someone cloaked for 3 days how about learn how to read. I do not see how this can possibly as it stands add any value to the game buf for griefers. 1.) If he is Away From Keyboard he can't give Intel to Anybody. 2.) It is not possible to stay cloaked for 3 days, because there is a Downtime every day. Originally by: Gonada cloaking does indeed need a counter. those that say its fine are crazy, plain and simple. not the least is the intell gathering methods used by alliances in regars to this. having countless alts, trial accounts strewn across 0.0 or in empire gathering enemy movements without recourse is silly at best. Your only Problem is, that you see the enemy as soon as he enters the local chat. Simple remove it and you don't have to worry about the easy spying. Of Course a Carebear like you would never want to lose his NobrainerFeelsaveDevice, which the Local chat is. The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:44:00 - [34] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Malcanis OK let's make it so that cloaked ships move at -75% speed, and can't target or activate modules, and can't lock until 15-30 seconds after uncloaking. Sounds a bit weak... Lets keep them from warping out too and it should be fair. Congrats on missing the point. Combat effectiveness isn't the issue here. Its tactic without a counter. I don't want to get rid of the tactic. I want to be able to do something about it. Even if that something if costly and a hassle. Before you start with the 'just be smart about it, stay aligned' rant again think about the balance here. A skill a brand new character can train in a month and a half grants complete immunity for reprisal even though AFK?
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:45:00 - [35] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me I have no idea ZOMG LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO sotry couldnt help myself that was funny not having a face is certainly brightening up the forums The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:53:00 - [36] Originally by: xhardxcorex Its tactic without a counter. He's cloaked in your system. Counter: Ignore him. Originally by: xhardxcorex A skill a brand new character can train in a month and a half grants complete immunity for reprisal even though AFK? Reprisal? Reprisal is retaliating for an injury received by injuring them back. Since before he can injure you he has to uncloak... end of dilemma. Unless, I guess, you consider just being cloaked in the system an injury itself. If so, for your revenge you can cloak and go afk too. That'll teach him!
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:56:00 - [37] Originally by: Armoured C not having a face is certainly brightening up the forums It's true. __________ Originally by: Tortun Nahme nah, that is the true badge of a forum warrior, to draw the humorous ire of the devs
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:04:00 - [38] Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: MyOwnSling How do I grief you if you can't see me By sitting in system, mostly AFK, for days on end in a cloaked ship. Its psychological warfare without any sort of equal counter. A cloaked command ship can effectively shutdown mining, logistic and ratting operations in a system for an indefinite period so long as a few basic principles of patience and caution are adhered to. The problem with this is that there's no counter. The cloaked ship can sit AFK for an indefinite period of time. It guerrilla warfare but with no native population to crack down on. Instead the opposition just disappears into thin air. Instead of the guerrilla being hard to find, it's completely impossible. Instead of it being challenging for the guerrilla to stay hidden, its stupidly easy. Just get up and walk away from the computer, leaving the game on. The tactic should remain in game. Logistic harassment is sound and viable strategy. It shouldn't be indefinitely un-counterable. Especially not when it involves sitting AFK in game for 20 hours a day. Its only psychological warfare to people who have severe mental issues.
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:06:00 - [39] Again I am referring to game balance. There is no counter skill to counter it. You just can not ignore someone whom is feedng intel to reds. They can be AFK most of the time but when they are NOT AFK can cause lots of issues and yes damge by feeding intel. Sitting AFK myself does not resolve the intel issue and it certainly does not create a counter move. Why is it that the few of you whom seem to enjoy this dont have any real game balance solutions just insults. Carebear ya ok thats why I live in 0.0 Carebare is sitting cloaked up for days feeding intel now that is carebare.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Its only psychological warfare to people who have severe mental issues. /\__ Speaking of which.. I think they should ban docking and POS shields as both cause me lots of 'grief' too. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.

xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Counter: Ignore him. Ignoring a ship shooting at you can be done, but is not advisable. Originally by: Catherine Frasier Reprisal? Reprisal is retaliating for an injury received by injuring them back. Since before he can injure you he has to uncloak... end of dilemma. Unless, I guess, you consider just being cloaked in the system an injury itself. If so, for your revenge you can cloak and go afk too. That'll teach him! If I were talking about someone gathering intel that retort would make sense. Taking one sentence out of context doesn't make you witty. Its a one sided mechanic allowing one account, with minimal time, effort, strategy or thought, disrupt logistics in system.
Ra Vhim Black Bag Ops	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:13:00 - [42] I think ratters should be allowed to have a button that decloaks everything in the system. I also think a blob should have a button that stops all ships in the system to fly faster then 1 km/sec (though, a nerf.. erh.. rebalance patch is in the works to solve that speed thing. That can also work).
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Its only psychological warfare to people who have severe mental issues. /\__ Speaking of which.. I think they should ban docking and POS shields as both cause me lots of 'grief' too. A docked character can only undock from a hostile station once. A station can be taken. A POS can be taken down. Explain how you counter someone sitting cloaked.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:15:00 - [44] what is the difference between a cloaked ship giving intel and an inti giving intel? If both are using bookmarks they can be near impossible to stop once in a system.
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:18:00 - [45] Originally by: baltec1 what is the difference between a cloaked ship giving intel and an inti giving intel? If both are using bookmarks they can be near impossible to stop once in a system. The inty takes a live person sitting behind the controls at all times. A pulse is required. Cloaking requires that you get into the system and... that you go make a sandwich, do the laundry and come back in a few hours.
Sarin Adler Caldari Dark Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:22:00 - [46] Poasting in a "AFK cloakers are not good, mkay?" thread. ---
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:23:00 - [47] Originally by: xhardxcorex The inty takes a live person sitting behind the controls at all times. A pulse is required. Cloaking requires that you get into the system and... that you go make a sandwich, do the laundry and come back in a few hours. In that time you can jump in an entire capital fleet and several jump frieghters full of supplies and have it dock up and log off for later without that "scout" knowing. I see no case for nerfing my bomber.
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:26:00 - [48] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: xhardxcorex The inty takes a live person sitting behind the controls at all times. A pulse is required. Cloaking requires that you get into the system and... that you go make a sandwich, do the laundry and come back in a few hours. In that time you can jump in an entire capital fleet and several jump frieghters full of supplies and have it dock up and log off for later without that "scout" knowing. I see no case for nerfing my bomber. And this is a counter for cloaking... how? Unless you sit in your bomber cloaked for more than 12 hours at a time, it has nothing to do with your bomber.
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:33:00 - [49] I'm not saying nerf them I am saying there should be a counter to the tactic. If that isn't possible then fine "nerf" it since you will call it that. I call it common sense that a mechanism of some sort should limit it to some duration of a few hours. I don't like nerfs myself but cloak forever bah its just lame. Oh and as I said currently it can be used to grief as well.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Ore 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:39:00 - [50] Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 16/10/2008 23:39:02 Surely if the guy is cloaked and gathering intel for the reds. Technically that doesn't mean he is afk. I tend to use bombers because i like to kill people in belts. So I warp to a belt, cloak in a system that tends to be mined or ratted in and I sit there. I wait. And wait and wait. I move to a perfect position above or below the belt, or between the roids and the centre. I then wait. Very patiently AT MY COMPUTER for some soul who thinks I'm just AFK to come into the belt. Let him mine, let him rat. If he's the right kinda ship I'll pop him and disappear into the night. I can't warped cloaked (boy I wish) so if I warp from the gate to a belt or station I am visible. People can see me. I have to have luck on my side to be totally undetected in a busy system. Bombers and Covert ops are also built of paper. So if you do catch me, I'm dead meat. Yes you can't detect them with a scan probe. That is okay I think. Perhaps not allow the cloak to be mounted on certain types of ship? It totally nerfs ships that aren't designed to use them in the current state of the game. I use them all the time, and yes I do often hide at a safe spot and cloak but only if I'm being chased down. I certainly don't go afk for hours everyday and those that do are giving ALL people who use the cloak a bad name. But then again, I don't have any alts so if I did do that i wouldn't have fun stalking carebears or even playing EVE.

Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:43:00 - [51] We're still on this?? 2 years ago this wasn't new. Aside from the obvious troll, I'd just like to play devil's advocate here for a moment. When I learned cloaking I found it a valuable resource that brought the game to an entirely different level. With covert ops, I now had the means to bypass many a gate camp, travel silently to any place I'd need or like to be, etc. The people who whine about it are griefers themselves, unhappy or unable to adapt to the playstyles of others. You can't have it YOUR way while playing your massively singleplayer online mining game so you decide to ruin it for everyone. You come out here to the forums, whine for a few months about something only the forum cares about because they, too, are here to whine about the same issue you're wining about, and the rest of the population that never comes out here has to suffer when they change something for the worse. I've seen EVE evolve since late 2002. I've seen them change the names of the empires, the shape of the map, countless changes to modules, 2.5 different GUI's. Yeah. They removed the ability to scan into the other side of a stargate IIRC. Changing cloaking does not benefit the population. It benefits you, the complainer that you can't do what I can do. Learn cloaking. See the drawbacks. Come back and edit your post.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:46:00 - [52] THERE IS A COUNTER, you just have to get with in 2km of him !!!! althought it might take you a while... space is big you know The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:48:00 - [53] Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: xhardxcorex The inty takes a live person sitting behind the controls at all times. A pulse is required. Cloaking requires that you get into the system and... that you go make a sandwich, do the laundry and come back in a few hours. In that time you can jump in an entire capital fleet and several jump frieghters full of supplies and have it dock up and log off for later without that "scout" knowing. I see no case for nerfing my bomber. And this is a counter for cloaking... how? Unless you sit in your bomber cloaked for more than 12 hours at a time, it has nothing to do with your bomber. The only people who can get bombers to work are the ones who can wait. In major ops I tend to be in the system hours before the fight to get into position. While hunting I can spend an hour or two in a busy belt watching BS and HACs ratting away, waiting, watching for that one cruiser or hulk to show up. I continue to wait till it starts ratting/mining, then when I deem the timing and position correct I pounce, killing the target and warping off to a safe spot to once again wait while the system defenders close down the gates and search for me. You nerf the cloak and you nerf the only advantage my bomber has.
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Armoured C THERE IS A COUNTER, you just have to get with in 2km of him !!!! althought it might take you a while... space is big you know Zing! Alas, this is not always true. My covops seems to want to stay cloaked at random even within 2km. I think the actual distance in some slight cases is "Within somewhere around the sphere of" 2km, though the distance can be as little as 4m sometimes. I noticed that my bombers do this more than other ships, especially when docking or with cans.
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:55:00 - [55] Oh. By the by, there is a fix for cloaking: Remove local. It happened for a day once. Best bug ever. Anything that shuts Jita up is a win in my book.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:59:00 - [56] Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: Catherine Frasier Counter: Ignore him. Ignoring a ship shooting at you can be done, but is not advisable. So you can't ignore him 'cause he's shooting at you... while cloaked... and afk. Makes perfect sense. Originally by: xhardxcorex Its a one sided mechanic allowing one account, with minimal time, effort, strategy or thought, disrupt logistics in system. Actually it doesn't disrupt anything. You do by (over)reacting ineffectually. I'd stick to arguing that it allows them to gather intel without risk, that one at least has some truth to it.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Yeah cloak is griefing... are you ******ed? They cant shoot, cant activate mods, cant hardly move, cant warp, cant do anything but sit and stare at you.... cmon. _______________________________________ Sig? where. There's no sig here.
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:03:00 - [58] Edited by: Bylok on 17/10/2008 00:04:48 Originally by: Snake Doctor We're still on this?? 2 years ago this wasn't new. Aside from the obvious troll, I'd just like to play devil's advocate here for a moment. When I learned cloaking I found it a valuable resource that brought the game to an entirely different level. With covert ops, I now had the means to bypass many a gate camp, travel silently to any place I'd need or like to be, etc. The people who whine about it are griefers themselves, unhappy or unable to adapt to the playstyles of others. You can't have it YOUR way while playing your massively singleplayer online mining game so you decide to ruin it for everyone. You come out here to the forums, whine for a few months about something only the forum cares about because they, too, are here to whine about the same issue you're wining about, and the rest of the population that never comes out here has to suffer when they change something for the worse. I've seen EVE evolve since late 2002. I've seen them change the names of the empires, the shape of the map, countless changes to modules, 2.5 different GUI's. Yeah. They removed the ability to scan into the other side of a stargate IIRC. Changing cloaking does not benefit the population. It benefits you, the complainer that you can't do what I can do. Learn cloaking. See the drawbacks. Come back and edit your post. I do know how to cloak and in fact do utilize the skill. Maybe you should read what I said cloaking for 3 or 4 days has what purpose? (yes yes I know after down time you have to re-cloak). Funny you say what you do about people like me posting this here becasue you read it so your one of those people in fact. I can cloak very well and do fly covert ops. No one is compaining but you. Oh and forgive me I didnt play the game back in 2002 and I doubt that it matters at all to what I posted. In fact 90% of your reply does not apply to my post.
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:06:00 - [59] Edited by: Bylok on 17/10/2008 00:06:48 Originally by: Brigsby5987 Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Yeah cloak is griefing... are you ******ed? They cant shoot, cant activate mods, cant hardly move, cant warp, cant do anything but sit and stare at you.... cmon. Read the thread cloaking is not griefing. Try reading.
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Bylok Read the thread cloaking is not griefing. Try reading. I read it..this is what you said Originally by: Bylok Cloaking currently is great for griefers. I am the cloaker griefing you.

Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:16:00 - [61] Originally by: Bylok Its not that one guy that does the fighting. Its as the previous post stated. Its just a guy sitting AFK 90% of the time feeding intel to other reds in system. Let's play spot the logical inconsistencies!! I've even helped by bolding the relevant part. If he's feeding intel he's not AFK is he? And if he is AFK he's not feeding intel so in the end it doesn't affect you at all. -
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Bylok Its not that one guy that does the fighting. Its as the previous post stated. Its just a guy sitting AFK 90% of the time feeding intel to other reds in system. Let's play spot the logical inconsistencies!! I've even helped by bolding the relevant part. If he's feeding intel he's not AFK is he? And if he is AFK he's not feeding intel so in the end it doesn't affect you at all. -
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:19:00 - [63] When I rat or plex in lowsec I have to constantly watch local, use the scanner to keep an eye out for probes or hostiles, and generally be alert every second. In 0.0 the rewards are higher, MUCH higher...and you only rarely have to deal with having to watch your back, AND you can just jump to an adjacent system and do the same thing. Speaking as a lowsec dweller: grow some balls and stop expecting the game to protect yourself for you. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:19:00 - [64] When I rat or plex in lowsec I have to constantly watch local, use the scanner to keep an eye out for probes or hostiles, and generally be alert every second. In 0.0 the rewards are higher, MUCH higher...and you only rarely have to deal with having to watch your back, AND you can just jump to an adjacent system and do the same thing. Speaking as a lowsec dweller: grow some balls and stop expecting the game to protect yourself for you. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:24:00 - [65] Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: Catherine Frasier Counter: Ignore him. Ignoring a ship shooting at you can be done, but is not advisable. If it's shooting at you, it's no longer cloaked nor AFK.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:24:00 - [66] Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: Catherine Frasier Counter: Ignore him. Ignoring a ship shooting at you can be done, but is not advisable. If it's shooting at you, it's no longer cloaked nor AFK.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:34:00 - [67] there is no greifing in this game, the op entire arguement is about cloakers greifing when this game is all about non consensual PVP and as such greifing doesnt really exist!!!! if you dont like it stay in 1.0 in the station and talk to the new people forever (some are rather friendly) The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
Ashla Chifis	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:41:00 - [68] Edited by: Ashla Chifis on 17/10/2008 00:41:35 No its about the fact that cloaking for days on end has no purpose other then griefing and there have been in fact cases of griefing in this game. Someone can in fact be AFK 90% of time and still act 10% of the time. What started out the thread was saying that there should be no skill that has no counter skill to it. The only reason to cloak for days is to grief via spying.
Sensor Ghost	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:48:00 - [69] I'm sure I saw something about this in evemon, a skill or a module for detecting cloaked ships... I can't seem to see it now, so it's entirely possible that I mis-understood what was being said, or that I just dreamt the whole thing anyway...
Simetriz	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:49:00 - [70] I TOTALLY AGREE

xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:02:00 - [71] Edited by: xhardxcorex on 17/10/2008 01:04:31 Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: Catherine Frasier Counter: Ignore him. Ignoring a ship shooting at you can be done, but is not advisable. If it's shooting at you, it's no longer cloaked nor AFK. Really? You're serious? Thank god you were here to explain that. It's not like I was talking about someone sitting cloaked and AFK for hours and hours, then coming back (as in no longer AFK) and uncloaking and attacking someone. No, of course that's not what I was talking about. You really nailed it. I was talking about how unfair it is that people can attack other players while cloaked. That EXACTLY what I was talking about. Its a good thing you were here to clear that up for everyone else. No one else seems to get what I was really talking about. You're wrong about the AFK bit though. The tactics I'm talking about involve a highly complex macro, which requires no human presence and is therefore AFK. I really don't know what I'd do without you here to clear things up. In fact, you're so good at it, why not grace someone else with your insight. It's not about griefing. Griefing is a part of Eve. Its why I play Eve. Its about a situation where minimal force, effort, creativity and assets are used in an disproportional way.
Taedrin Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:16:00 - [72] People aren't scared of cloakers when they are AFK. They are scared of cloakers who might return from being AFK, while you think they are still AFK. That is the danger of cloakers. There is a similar danger with people docked up in stations, but in 0.0, stations can be bubbled. ANd nobody cares about low sec, I guess. And then again, you can confirm where people are if they are docked.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:16:00 - [73] I have argued this case to many times than I want to remember. There is nothing wrong with cloaking. There certainly seems to be a problem with how players deal with it. The removal of "Ghost Training"
NEUR0TIC CAT	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:40:00 - [74] Originally by: StealthGerbils Why not add probes to detect cloaked players. Would that not completely eliminate the usefulness of a cloak altogether? BTW *noobs*, a cloak ship cannot hurt you while he is cloaked Hello kitty ----->
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:18:00 - [75] Originally by: xhardxcorex It's not like I was talking about someone sitting cloaked and AFK for hours and hours, then coming back (as in no longer AFK) and uncloaking and attacking someone. No, of course that's not what I was talking about. Well if he uncloaks and attacks, lucky you, there's a counter for that: Shoot him. (Or run away because you were aligned, scanning, paying attention, all that stuff...) Seems to me what you're complaining about is that his cloaking prevents you from using local as an early warning safety system that lets you run for cover before anyone can possibly engage you. Well, as it turns out, that's not what local is for. In fact it kinda seems to me that his cloaking is the counter to your abuse of local.
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:30:00 - [76] while we are at it lets nerf docking. a person can sit, perfectly safe, in a station docked and gather intel all day long about who is in a system. this is totally unbalanced, they get intel for no risk. there should be a counter for docking, like a probe that will undock someone if they have been afk for more than 15 minutes
ghost st	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:40:00 - [77] The problem isnt really the cloak, its the amount of information a cloaked ship can get intel and be completely immune to any counters. I dont believe that cloaking is the entire issue tho, just the amount of information that he can gater from 100% saftry, local will tell the amount of people in the system, and the directional scan can give shiptypes, the cloaker can also see cynoes, etc. Cloakers that are there for the pew arent a problem, you can setup bait fairly easily, or just rat with combat fittings But cloakers that are there just for the intel are 100% immune and can gather all the intel a non-cloaked ship can. Personally i think that local should be on delayed mode, and that directional should be disabled for t1 cloakers. T2 ships however shouldnt have these drawbacks, or the drawbacks should be greatly reduced.
E Vile Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:40:00 - [78] To deal with the issue of people sitting in a system afk griefing locals, just group with someone, go rat and be a nice juicy piece of bait. Have your friend aligned or ready to warp to you. Beat the cloaker at his own trap. I would rather CCP Remove local chat so we don't automaticlly see everyone in the system. I always found that cheesy we can just tell whenever anyone jumps into the system no matter how far we are from that point. Make peoeple use radar for seeing who is around. THAT would make things MUCH more intresting without this big safety chat. EVE is supposed to be hardcore, yet this hello kitty way to auto detect as soon as someone enters the chat channel. As far as nerfing cloaks, I disagree. Cloaks are not a insta escape plan. It MAY get you out of trouble, but don't count on that being 100% Cloaks are fine with their intended drawbacks. Seems like the EVE community has developed into a bunch of whiners over the years. I havn't been on the forums awhile and all I see are cry nerf/cry about nerf threads.
Piper Halliwell Minmatar Phantom Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.17 04:34:00 - [79] 0/10 TBH the ghost training whines were better. Try again with a better complaint. -------------------- You've got a gun, I've got a gun, Let's write a tragic ending.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.17 04:57:00 - [80] Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed remember... what you want nerfed also works against you... if ccp put a limit on how long you cloak say ten mins then a 10 min cool down before it can claok again. this WILL also apply to you oneday should you need a cloak. if said pirate griever is in youre system in 0.0 do something about it.

CHAOS100 Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.10.17 04:59:00 - [81] rgr that! nerf incoming via overnight shipping from iceland! --------------
Sol Halcon Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:20:00 - [82] Originally by: E Vile Seems like the EVE community has developed into a bunch of whiners over the years. I havn't been on the forums awhile and all I see are cry nerf/cry about nerf threads. I hear ya bro.. This is most likely due to the spill over from World of Warcraft, Conan, etc... Where, when the whiners cry the devs jump. Welcome to EVE....Lady mercy don't live here.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.17 05:39:00 - [83] Quote: Its about a situation where minimal force, effort, creativity and assets are used in an disproportional way. Protip: Through use of directional scanner, local, and common sense, you can make it nigh impossible for them to gank you. 0.0 is dangerous, deal with it. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Vincenzo Delloro Amarr Lux et Veritas	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:08:00 - [84] xhardxcorex: poorly named character or most poorly named character?
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:43:00 - [85] The counter to AFK cloaking is as mentioned the removal of local. Preferably with the introduction of a new set of intel tools which if you look really, really hard might tell you there is someone cloaked in the system. It's not a public advertisement device, those are already in game and called cynosural fields. If it's cloaked you shouldn't know it's there, especially not for zero effort.
DjLowballer Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP	Posted - 2008.10.17 06:53:00 - [86] Here is one way to look at it; If I am in a Covert ops in hostile territory cloaked yes I can feed intel and you really wont ever find me. AFK or not I am not mining and making isk /resources for my alliance, I am not fighting you and causing you to lose assets, and if my friends do come it is 1 less gun that is pointed at you. Once I learned Covert Ops I spent hours practicing how to move about undetected, and many more hours were spent making safe nooks and learning systems. For all you know that neutral could be just someone bored exploring and learning. But to the point, Intel saves the day. Any time we went out ratting or ice mining we sent scouts 1-2 systems out in all directions and brought security for the Op. So GG cloaker, you told everyone where we are. Unfortunately by the time you get there we will be gone.
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:01:00 - [87] Cloaks are fine and fun. If you want to continue the debate, here's one of the best cloaking threads
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:24:00 - [88] Originally by: Haradgrim Learn to deal people; stay aligned, pay attention, fit your own cloak. All the counters are there if you want them.... As for people trying to probe cloakers.... if you aren't succeeding; your doing it wrong. Not to mention if there were no counter to being probed....well.... oh man.. this is exactly the arguement which was used with nanos.. there are counters.. THIS IS BULLSHIT. It isn't the most important fact that there are counters, but more how effective these counters are and even more important, how MANY counters there are. And ofc how widely this tactic is used in comparison to all other tactics in eve. And also: if you can't probe down a cloaker you're doing it wrong? plz be so kind and enlighten me what ways there are to probe a cloaker.. oh wait.. NONE. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:41:00 - [89] Originally by: Faife eve forums: trolls trolling trolls about being trolled. /signed. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki And also: if you can't probe down a cloaker you're doing it wrong? plz be so kind and enlighten me what ways there are to probe a cloaker.. oh wait.. NONE. Clue company called, but it wasn't for you. Cloakers are fine - at least they die when they jump through the gates. Cov. ops and Rapiers are hard - but I have seen very efficient tactics on killing them. But all in all - 0.0 is not a happy la-la land, you got to protect your territory. Unless the enemy got a whole AFK cloaking GANG in your system, basic precautions for a ratter will save your rear. If you don't know them - you don't deserve to have your Raven intact :) All these cloaking whines make me want to buy myself a Piligrim :) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun

Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:03:00 - [91] I vote to nerf afk cloaking by removing a ship that cloaks from local. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:10:00 - [92] Originally by: Merdaneth I vote to nerf afk cloaking by removing a ship that cloaks from local. CCP are reworking cloaking-scanning-local mechanics as far as I know. But I have a feeling that in the end CCP will either: 1) present us with new and exciting TIME GRIND that would give 100% immunity to cloaks. 2) goof it up and make it impossible to find someone in system, effectively removing belt/safespot-ganks altogether. 3) succeed in presenting us with new and exciting system, that would allow pilots to actively compete in hiding/searching for intel, making PVP more exciting by introducing additional strategic dimension - Information. Probability estimations: 1) 60% 2) 30% 3) 10% ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:10:00 - [93] Originally by: xhardxcorex Its psychological warfare without any sort of equal counter. It has the same counter as all forms of psychological warfare: train Ignore V (and Eyes In The Back Of Your Neck IV as an auxilliary support skill).
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:12:00 - [94] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Malcanis OK let's make it so that cloaked ships move at -75% speed, and can't target or activate modules, and can't lock until 15-30 seconds after uncloaking. Sounds a bit weak... Lets keep them from warping out too and it should be fair. Well that's a bit harsh, but yeah... might as well do the job properly. People will just have to adapt.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:14:00 - [95] How do you know they are there, if you can't see them? Headache
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki And I know the basics on how to rat in 0.0 with enemies in local, rest assured. And the guy I quoted wasn't talking about killing cloaker ships when jumping into a system. It's about the possibilty to probe cloaked ships in a system. You missed my point. You want to kill a cloaker - which is approaching the game from a wrong angle. I want to kill people in NPC corps - well, guess what, I have to sacrifice an un-reimbursable ship to do it and I still can't do it if they are docked. You should be approaching the game from how it affects you. You should be wanting SAFETY. And My point was - you can get a reasonable degree of safety cloaker or no-cloaker. Just follow the rules. Does a cloaked ship compromises this safety? Well - just as much as ship that has just jumped in from a nearby system, that you had no scout in. No difference. If you can't handle relative safety that is 0.0 - than tough luck and cry me a river. It is not cloaker's fault, it is yours. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Ore 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:21:00 - [97] Cloaking is absolutely fine. In every way. The modules fitted to ships designed not to carry them, have MASSIVE penalties. Those few ships that do carry them are very niche in respect to their abilities, especially stealth bombers. and like the guy above me said, it is no worse really in terms of safety than having someone jump into the system anyway. All of the arguments about AFK intelligence gathering and stuff are moot. You aren't AFK if the ship is being used in an hostile way, thus what is the problem? If they are AFK then they are no threat. The stealthbomber pilot who sits outside your station or belt waiting to pop your haulers and tech II frigs often has to sit there for HOURS watching and waiting for the right moment. Kudos to him for being patient and cunning. Its a very clever way of playing eve and offers a bit of diversity to the blobs and the direct head to head gang wars. Its one of the more inventive ways of doing pvp. The guy who probes out the low sec mission in his cloaky cloaky and then brings his BS into the mission to kill the missioner? Brilliant. In the grand scheme of things only a very small % of people do it. I've been killed lots by people who do that, and every time I think its great. The real issue is the ratters who use the cloak in 0.0 to protect themselves. Well, I would agree that in terms of my ethical view its a bit wrong. But really, to be honest, most people only fit a cloak when they are in an area that is very hostile or there is a big risk of runnning into someone, but they want to take the advantage of the money in 0.0. Its a protective tool for them, and like a Warp stab, nerfs considerably the ships ability to fight. Cloaking devices are suppose to be like this. On a bit of a geek note, in Startrek, its next to impossible to locate ships with cloaking devices. Considering that this modules in eve is based mostly on that sci fi series, this is how they should work. And like in that series, when we de cloak, we are vulnerable for a few moments. I have been decloaked so many times by good pilots. And its good to see people are clever enough to counter them. In the grand scheme of things, 5 pilots jumping into a system with recons and hacs causing havoc is worse than the single guy cloaked not doing anything or the bomber sitting at your ratting belt watching you carebear. And its one of the last remaining ways to solo pvp in this game. Solo, IMHO there is no more interesting and adrenaline way of fighting people in this game. Leave them as they are...or buff them so the bomber can use the covert ops cloak! :) The ships are made of paper too. Stop complaining about something that is cool in this game. They aren't really THAT deadly. I'd rather fight a raven with a cloaking device than one without. I'd rather fight a stealth bomber or a covert ops than a interceptor. I'd rather fight a hac or commandship with a cloak than without. My odds of surviving a much greater if they fit them. All it is is a state of mind, that someone might be watching you. But don't we all have that once we go lower than 0.5?
Xeronn Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:29:00 - [98] afk or not afk you dont seem to get the point cloakers have all the initiative I guess we understand the meaning of "COUNTER" in totaly different ways "beeing aligned or not mining or whatever" isnt a counter, it`s a precaution a "counter" would presume the ability to actively seek/find/kill the target, with at least some probability of success So no, NOS dosnt counter nanos it just makes them go away, no , aligned does not counter cloakers it just makes them not attack you or gives you a good chanche to escape Why would everyone argue that siting 100% safe anywhere in space is balanced? So what if he`s AFK or not, i could care less really, it`s the fact that you cant do shit about it one way or another UNLESS he decides to act . For all purposes, if he doesnt act he`s AFK from where i`m siting, i dont care if he`s browsing forums or out having a beer So you`re basicaly saying that in order to be safe in space one must allways take some sort of action (align, stay in gang, scout, scan)...unless one is cloaked?? So why dont you take your own advice a little, i mean sure if the worthless carebears should ALLWAYS do something while in space in order to stay safe, the l33t PvP`ers should do the same? IMHO there needs to be some sort of mechanic that requires permanent action while cloaked or otherwise cloack vanishes (dunno, like clicking sumthing every other minute) ,+ a workable way to pinpoint cloaked ships
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Ore 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:38:00 - [99] Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 17/10/2008 10:42:46 Originally by: Xeronn UNLESS he decides to act . For all purposes, if he doesnt act he`s AFK from where i`m sitting, i dont care if he`s browsing forums or out having a beer Whilst I agree with you about the fact that you CAN'T locate him. If he doesn't act then there is no problem. Because he's not doing anything. Thus you have nothing to worry about. And if he does act, he is more vulnerable than he normally would be, because he's inhibited by the cloaking device. Plus to attack you he has to warp uncloaked. Which means you spot him on the overview. It amazes me though how many people when mining don't even look at the overview in low sec or 0.0. When the neutral/hostile pilot warps in at 70km, and then disappears from view, you have enough time to leave. Or even if he decloaked, you still have time to run. It borks the ships. I hate fighting with a cloak, unless its a bomber. That locking delay tends to mean I can never catch anything anyway so I don't bother anymore. Just be a bit more organised in terms of security. If you don't have good enough protection to kill 1 guy.... then isn't it a case of doing a risky activity in eve online, of which we all know generally results explosions and stuff. I liken such ships to Nuclear subs. To be honest, the same problem exists....but you can't nerf subs. People just have to adapt. The whole point of the cloak is you can't find the ship.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:46:00 - [100] My usual response to my allies if there is a cloaker in system is always the same. Turn around and kick the shit out of it when it uncloaks. If it's a Mothership, then we run like ***gots. Also.

Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:47:00 - [101] I sense a possible new massive whine 'NURF!!!1' topic..
Elis Verone Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:49:00 - [102] well alot to be said about cloakers BUT i shall only say this.,. make it only work for the ships it is intended too... covert ops etc. and maybe haulers... t2 kind.. cloaking is not cool on bs and the likes...
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:50:00 - [103] Either a timer, or a scanner that can pick up cloakers for example in a >REALLY REALLY long timeframe. For example if you really want to find a cloaker, you need to search for a 1-2h. Pretty much depends on which is lighter to the servers.
Iva Soreass Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:55:00 - [104] Cloaking is the new Nano, true story. Quick all the WoWhiners whine now and it will be nerf'd soon.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:59:00 - [105] * Normal ships should simply not be able to move while cloaked * Nanotitans and Doomsday activations 20 seconds before DT are worse problems than cloakers... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:01:00 - [106] anti-cloak bomb with a diameter of 30km... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:04:00 - [107] 2/10 Points for even bothering. Keep working on those trolls! Frigate racing is fast and fun!
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:06:00 - [108] Originally by: Xeronn cloakers have all the initiative ...yes, aaaall the initiative (as soon as the cloaking delay has run out).
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:10:00 - [109] The moment cloaks get nerfed, people that rat with cloaks fitted will simply logout again. Will you then ask CCP to remove logging off from game?
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:26:00 - [110] I post in a 'whats going to be nerfed next' thread, i say i fear the Carebear Brigade will try and get cloakers screwed. Lo and behold whats this is see?

Murk Loar Caldari Polytope	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:27:00 - [111] So....tl;dr One cloaking red (who may or may not be afk,and may or may not be feeding intel) has effectively shut down 'your' system to the point you have to dock up/hide and run to the forums about it? Sounds like Covert tactics working as intended. 1 man > Your entire defence force.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:32:00 - [112] Wanna sort the problem of cloakers in your home systems?.... il tell you how: Be organized. SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:36:00 - [113] Originally by: Mioelnir The moment cloaks get nerfed, people that rat with cloaks fitted will simply logout again. Will you then ask CCP to remove logging off from game? Nerf ctrl + q!! Nerf nerf!! Frigate racing is fast and fun!
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:44:00 - [114] Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 11:44:45 Originally by: Xeronn Why would everyone argue that sitting 100% safe anywhere in space is balanced? While he is cloaked HE is 100% safe from you and YOU are 100% safe from him..............BALANCE For him to do anything to you he must uncloak thus allowing you to dmg him and him to dmg you while you cannot choose when to engage but suffer from no penalties at all............BALANCE He gets to decide when to attack but if he does attack he gets penalties to his lock time and a delay before he can even start locking you..........BALANCE
Hades In'aMiniskirt 30 ounces	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:08:00 - [115] Originally by: Merdaneth I vote to nerf afk cloaking by removing a ship that cloaks from local. I love this, it has many merits Now you see me.....now you don't, and wont even know I am in system about to decloak 10 klm's off your port and HURT you bad
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:18:00 - [116] OMG there's a cloaking griefer in system asfsafasfasf I'll go to forums!
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:23:00 - [117] whining little ***es all of you. Go play hello kitty island. Also if u don't know how to counter a cloaker ur an idiot FULL STOP!. Now if u have a brain a cloaker is no problem cause either hes giving intel (which means he has to see u therefore limiting ur area u have to find him in). If hes afk it is actually better so what hes there for 4 hours waiting im waiting just outside the system waiting for the noob to jump to the next system. So please all you whining ***es that say cloakers need a counter should get a life. E.g. Whats the point in cloaking if u can be found just as quick by a recon ship when ur cloaked then when ur not. Simply put Cloaking should make u invisible and very very hard to find thats the point otherwise there is no point
Fresky Smooovh The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:35:00 - [118] Its amazing how many people can completely miss the point of what the OP is trying to say. A red in your system will always make you more cautious about what you do,you dont know if he is AFK or has friends that are waiting for him to call them in. So it is psychological warfare, great, no problem, but I do want to have an option of doing something to drive him away from the system so that I can carry on with whatever I want to do. Whether he is AFK or not is irrelevant because I have no way to tell so I have to assume that he is not AFK and behave accordingly. He on the other hand is completely free to go make a sandwich in the knowledge that there is nothing i can do. So CCP give me a way to find him, make it as complicated, skill intensive, time intensive as you like but give me an option to find him.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Fresky Smooovh A red in your system will always make you more cautious about what you do,you dont know if he is AFK or has friends that are waiting for him to call them in. If he is a scout for a larger gang then its your fault for not having your own scouts and not seeing his gang approaching. If he is not a scout you should still have yours out checking your pipe/choke point anyway and be in a gang. Lets face it you can get more bonuses and be more productive in one anyway and you also can react to a problems faster. Organization is not a naughty word and it will make afk cloakers useless and give you a heads up and the ability to kill a hostile gang if he is not afk but a scout.
Jack Gilligan THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:59:00 - [120] I've always thought that the best solution that would still allow cloaks to be used reasonably by non purpose built stealth ships would be to have them use capacitor on non stealth ships, so that they can have a maximum duration of 5-10 minutes at most. Furthermore, non stealth ships should have a lengthy reactivation delay, I'd like to see the cloak take the same amount of time to "recalibrate" that it was active. So if you run the cloak for 5 minutes you can't cloak again for that long. After all, non covert ops, recons, or black ops ships weren't built to handle the thing and putting a cloak on ships that aren't amounts to jury-rigging. 5-10 minutes of cloak is plenty of time to slowboat to a gate cloaked, or to hide at a safespot in an escape attempt, but this stops the tactic of cloaking Ravens or something forever, which is commonly used by isk farmers to avoid gangs hunting them. My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.

BATMorpheous Caldari BAT.EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:02:00 - [121] \o/ woohoo new item idea......an anti cloak burst area of affect 20km...requires some form of fuel to activate and can be fitted to any ship :)
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:04:00 - [122] Edited by: IonKnight on 17/10/2008 13:06:35 Originally by: Fresky Smooovh Its amazing how many people can completely miss the point of what the OP is trying to say. A red in your system will always make you more cautious about what you do,you dont know if he is AFK or has friends that are waiting for him to call them in. So it is psychological warfare, great, no problem, but I do want to have an option of doing something to drive him away from the system so that I can carry on with whatever I want to do. Whether he is AFK or not is irrelevant because I have no way to tell so I have to assume that he is not AFK and behave accordingly. He on the other hand is completely free to go make a sandwich in the knowledge that there is nothing i can do. So CCP give me a way to find him, make it as complicated, skill intensive, time intensive as you like but give me an option to find him. Well u can still find them (mate of mine found me when i was cloaked but that's happened once in my life of eve). But thats not the point ur not using ur brain. If a flashy comes into system align if he jumps into ur belt insta warp off. Ur just not thinking about this. To put it simply u obviously are quite new and have no idea of how to counter a cloaker. Cloakers are one of the easiest thing to deal with. Yes there is no counter because if there was there would be no point in cloaking. Atm i uncloak about half of the cloakers that come into system (most of the others are in safe spots so im not bothered by them). Also yes its annoying seeing a red in system that u can't find but shit happens and anyone who says cloaking should only last 10 minutes or so is an idiot. Whats the point in cloaking if u can't scout for longer than 10 minutes. Please all carebares who have no idea how to counter a cloaker use UR BRAINS u don't have to counter a cloaker just go about ur day just be that little bit more on edge.
Jack Gilligan Caldari THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:08:00 - [123] Originally by: BATMorpheous \o/ woohoo new item idea......an anti cloak burst area of affect 20km...requires some form of fuel to activate and can be fitted to any ship :) You could call this some sort of "EMP burst" that will temporarily scramble cloaks, and give stealth ships (ie the ones that are supposed to fit cloaks) resistance to it per level of cloaking skill and their ship skill and launch them from scan probe launchers... Nice idea. My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
BATMorpheous Caldari BAT.EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:21:00 - [124] Edited by: BATMorpheous on 17/10/2008 13:22:43 Edited by: BATMorpheous on 17/10/2008 13:21:26 would be nice extra to have and i feel 20km area of affect isnt to drastic maybe a high rank skill that allows you to upgrade ur area of affect at added fuel cost? if the devs take this idea on (hopes they are listening)...we could call it a Morph Disrupter ^^ :)
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:34:00 - [125] sadly couldn't work what would be the point in an arazu if u can't sneak up on ppl and warp scram them.
Ascuris Wurm	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:56:00 - [126] I have to agree that local is the problem, not the cloakers. Local should be changed to 'System' and made optional just like 'Constellation' and 'Region'. You wouldn't even know they are there if not for local. You shouldn't know who is in the system without scanning unless they want to broadcast their presence. And I do have to agree that there should be a very specialized field of scanning for finding cloaked ships. Even something like that the scanning player has to be cloaked while scanning with the special probe that requires high cloaking and scanning skills... just so it is possible. Or let Recon ships live up to their name, and make them the only ship that can scan down cloaked ships. Just something to balance. "It's never too late to be what you could have been" -George Eliot Especially in Eve-Online
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:05:00 - [127] Yea ill agree with u there if any ship should it should only be recon ships and then i would still think it would be game breaking (well make it alot less fun). Sorry but i can't think of anything more fun than finding a cloaking and watching him shit himself as i uncloak him. But u know if recon ships could find cloaked ships noone would cloak pretty much everyone i know has a recon ship and giving them the ability to find cloaked ships would mean the end for actual intelligence. Creating an item to counter cloakers is also crazy all it would mean is that u get a guy to go into the system before u uncloak everyone at gate. Put it simply would make fitting a cloaking device to any ship that couldnt use a covert cloak would get owned. E.g. guy warps into system uncloaks the guys warps scrams them. Then simply its over for that ship. Also i love the fact that ppl think cloakers = griefers. A griefer is someone who kills u multiple times without even giving u a chance. Not a person who is AFk with a cloak on.
Imhotep Khem Minmatar Doom Guard Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:09:00 - [128] My solution is; 1. Add a POS module that can launch probes capable of tracking cloaked ships. 2. These probes are only useable by certain ships. Perhaps black OPs. 3. The POS module can only be mounted with a certain sovereignty. 4. Probes can only be launched like 1 per hour or something. The idea is you can break a cloak if you have enough players and infrastructure. It will still be very hard, but opening the door to breaking the cloak will allow to be some balance there. Tying it to a POS and sovereignty means you cant break cloak in just any system. Also, I support gas clouds around manufacturing stations like in the stinky Amarr system. _________ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:15:00 - [129] Originally by: Imhotep Khem My solution is; 1. Add a POS module that can launch probes capable of tracking cloaked ships. 2. These probes are only useable by certain ships. Perhaps black OPs. 3. The POS module can only be mounted with a certain sovereignty. 4. Probes can only be launched like 1 per hour or something. The idea is you can break a cloak if you have enough players and infrastructure. It will still be very hard, but opening the door to breaking the cloak will allow to be some balance there. Tying it to a POS and sovereignty means you cant break cloak in just any system. Also, I support gas clouds around manufacturing stations like in the stinky Amarr system. Now thats a system that could work without breaking cloaking.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:33:00 - [130] Originally by: Imhotep Khem My solution is; 1. Add a POS module that can launch probes capable of tracking cloaked ships. 2. These probes are only useable by certain ships. Perhaps black OPs. 3. The POS module can only be mounted with a certain sovereignty. 4. Probes can only be launched like 1 per hour or something. The idea is you can break a cloak if you have enough players and infrastructure. It will still be very hard, but opening the door to breaking the cloak will allow to be some balance there. Tying it to a POS and sovereignty means you cant break cloak in just any system. Also, I support gas clouds around manufacturing stations like in the stinky Amarr system. The last thing we need is yet more unique abilities in the hands of the large sov holding alliances.

BATMorpheous Caldari BAT.EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.18 12:48:00 - [131] Edited by: BATMorpheous on 18/10/2008 12:49:47 Originally by: Ascuris Wurm I have to agree that local is the problem, not the cloakers. Local should be changed to 'System' and made optional just like 'Constellation' and 'Region'. You wouldn't even know they are there if not for local. You shouldn't know who is in the system without scanning unless they want to broadcast their presence. And I do have to agree that there should be a very specialized field of scanning for finding cloaked ships. Even something like that the scanning player has to be cloaked while scanning with the special probe that requires high cloaking and scanning skills... just so it is possible. Or let Recon ships live up to their name, and make them the only ship that can scan down cloaked ships. Just something to balance. maybe local chat should only be available in systems that have a station? after all would there be any comms in a system without a station? the answer is no because there is nothing in that system to provide comms just another idea to throw in the mix :)
BATMorpheous Caldari BAT.EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.10.18 12:59:00 - [132] Originally by: IonKnight sadly couldn't work what would be the point in an arazu if u can't sneak up on ppl and warp scram them. dude it would work, eve is about risk..if ur sneaking up on someone and are cloaked there is no risk to u and you have an advantage of picking and choosing your fights a job made easy by the arazu. now what if when picking your fights you had to hope they didnt have a cloak disrupter? first of all they would have to know ur stalking them while cloaked (not possible apart from u showing in local) and second of all they would have to activate the cloak burst which would only extend 20km the cloak burst would basically be a guessing game not a defo hit. whats wrong scared you wouldnt be able to adapt and change ur tactics? cause im sure u would, personally i would wait outside the 20km till they did the burst then move in between the cycles see how easy that was? and its not even in game as a feature : /
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.10.18 13:41:00 - [133] Edited by: Koyama Ise on 18/10/2008 13:44:06 All I can say is your the cause CCP nerfs the absolute living **** out of everything. You can tone stuff down but when you finally convince... correction when CCP can't put up with it anymore they just blast the shit out of it mindlessly. If I'm cloaked I can't lock you, if I'm cloaked I have to wait several seconds before I can start targeting you (Stealth Bombers and Black Ops Excluded), if I'm cloaked my sig resolution gets practically halved (Except Force Recons and Covert Ops), if I'm cloaked I move slower than an Abaddon after the speed nerf (89ms^-1) (Black Ops, Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops and Force Recons exculded). If you're worried about afk cloakers in your ratting system fly a BC (Never fly what you can't afford to lose) or fly in a gang with other ratters who can help if something happens (MMORPG Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Game) or move to another system. Emphasis added ------ FIX THE BLOODY OVERVIEW ALREADY! SPEED NERF! RUN FOR THE HILLS!
ShadowDraqon Awesome Industries Group	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:30:00 - [134] SOLUTION: add a probe which gives you the location of the cloaked ship +/- ~10km. now you warp in. if he's afk, fly around a bit and eventually you'll bump -> lock -> pop the sucka. if he IS at the keyboard, he can warp out. if you don't find him after some time, you reprobe to see if he's still there. the error margin might even be set so that the bigger the ship, the less the margin, for example making a cloaked cap instabump on warp in, and covert ops ships causing added margin, since they're designed to cloak. there, i just countered afk cloaking without nerfing the whole concept of cloaks (too much). and please don't go, "this sucks", instead point out what parts of this idea could be improved. ____________________ I got killed from my kindness no, rly
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:33:00 - [135] Originally by: ShadowDraqon SOLUTION: add a probe which gives you the location of the cloaked ship +/- ~10km. now you warp in. if he's afk, fly around a bit and eventually you'll bump -> lock -> pop the sucka. if he IS at the keyboard, he can warp out. if you don't find him after some time, you reprobe to see if he's still there. the error margin might even be set so that the bigger the ship, the less the margin, for example making a cloaked cap instabump on warp in, and covert ops ships causing added margin, since they're designed to cloak. there, i just countered afk cloaking without nerfing the whole concept of cloaks (too much). and please don't go, "this sucks", instead point out what parts of this idea could be improved. The ideas a bad one because @-/+ 10km you can warp in cloaked and drop a blob right on top of the area giving the cloaker no chance to warp. Cloaks are fine if your organized, plus they are counters to scanning and probing so making them probable is kinda stupid.
Deimi	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:36:00 - [136] Even though I don't subscribe to the reasons put forward of the OP. I do agree with the follow up posts who like me appear to think that cloaking ability is out of hand for how we play the game. So yes, a /signed with those who suggest that time is ripe that the game gets a counter technology before we have all and everyone sneaking around in stealthed mode. =)
ShadowDraqon Awesome Industries Group	Posted - 2008.10.18 14:45:00 - [137] Originally by: lebrata The ideas a bad one because @-/+ 10km you can warp in cloaked and drop a blob right on top of the area giving the cloaker no chance to warp. Cloaks are fine if your organized, plus they are counters to scanning and probing so making them probable is kinda stupid. do you read? Originally by: ShadowDraqon please don't go, "this sucks", instead point out what parts of this idea could be improved. ok make it 20km or whatever _________________________ I got killed from my kindness no, rly
TZeer Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:33:00 - [138] - Need to difference the spec ships and non spec ships. - If you make scanning cloakers possible, specced ships need to be immune (maybe at Cloaking lvl 5) - Specced ships mean black ops, covert ops, force recon and any other specced ship that might come later. - Probing needs to be fixed so that if you move during a scan, the scanner dont get a result. Right now it doesnt matter where you are in the beginning of the scan, it`s where you are when the scan finnishes that count.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:56:00 - [139] Edited by: lebrata on 18/10/2008 15:58:35 Originally by: ShadowDraqon Originally by: lebrata The ideas a bad one because @-/+ 10km you can warp in cloaked and drop a blob right on top of the area giving the cloaker no chance to warp. Cloaks are fine if your organized, plus they are counters to scanning and probing so making them probable is kinda stupid. do you read? 1. the prober gets a result 2. he cloaks 3. he warps to the result (cloaked) knowing he will land 10km ish off a cloaked ship 4. he calls in his blob of 3 bazillion to warp to him and drop bubbles 5. the cloaker sees the blob land but cannot uncloak and warp cos of the blob and its bubbles, so he gets decloaked and popped. 6. cloaking becomes worthless. 7. disorganized moronic carebears take eve even closer to easy mode. 8. game has no challenges 9. game dies 10. morons move to another game and start screwing that up. Did i miss anything?.
Tykkis	Posted - 2008.10.18 16:18:00 - [140] Close the local window if that 1 red is annoying you. Nerfing things just because they annoy a bit is a bit excessive. Seen few cloaking whine threads allready all in few days, who put the first one? pod him

ShadowDraqon Awesome Industries Group	Posted - 2008.10.18 16:34:00 - [141] Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 18/10/2008 16:33:53 I think i have found the root of the problem, as well as a lot of other problems. nerf people! ______________________ I got killed for my kindness no, rly
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2008.10.18 20:42:00 - [142] Nerf stations! Seriously you can stay docked in them all day griefing ppl!
Darth Skorpius The Crow Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.18 23:14:00 - [143] last time i checked, if any object at all coems within 2km of a cloaked ship, the ship gets de cloaked, so learn to use your damn probes or just go to a different system bunnies stole my sig
Sig Sour	Posted - 2008.10.18 23:42:00 - [144] ****************************************** This problem is consistently mis-identified ****************************************** Cloaking is not the problem - the local channel is the problem
Ream Macrobutt	Posted - 2008.10.19 00:36:00 - [145] Very dumb suggestion. I don't grief, ever, but the only reason I ever go to 0.0 is because I can cloak. In a Cov Ops I can watch gates and feed intel to my blues or help guide corp and alliance members through areas of 0.0 Any type of ship I ever take to 0.0 has some type of cloak fitted, and without that I would never again even visit 0.0. It's just not worth it.
Alexander Vallen	Posted - 2008.10.19 00:39:00 - [146] Depth Charge Concept Originally by: Alexander Vallen Edited by: Alexander Vallen on 17/10/2008 23:59:36 [...] Perhaps what we need is a dedicated 'Depth charge' type missile weapon. Sort of a cross between a Torpedo and a smart bomb. [...]give some indication that the Sensor user is getting closer? An increased rate of ping perhaps? But you would still only have a directional cone to work with not an exact location. The SB can still dodge these weapons or attempt to stay at range, though they would start to take some damage.
annab Amarr Vermin.	Posted - 2008.10.19 01:36:00 - [147] Personally I think an afk log out timer is needed. You get 15mins of no keyboard/mouse movement then the game kicks you. You get a 5min counter on you so you can be probed down. Unless at a station then you just log. It gives the person 15mins to do something. If not you decloak (If cloaked) and sit for 5mins ready to be found. Then you disapper. It means the ratters,blob,miners ect have a change to punish the player. However it doesn't change the game play in a major way. It should apply to sitting in stations as well as they take up player limited systems. If it happens more than once in an hour the 5min timer doubles. So if you afk four times then you sit for 40mins. Seem fair to all players as it stops afk. If they are on after 15mins you know they are active.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.19 02:13:00 - [148] Originally by: annab Personally I think an afk log out timer is needed. You get 15mins of no keyboard/mouse movement then the game kicks you. You get a 5min counter on you so you can be probed down. Unless at a station then you just log. It gives the person 15mins to do something. If not you decloak (If cloaked) and sit for 5mins ready to be found. Then you disapper. It means the ratters,blob,miners ect have a change to punish the player. However it doesn't change the game play in a major way. It should apply to sitting in stations as well as they take up player limited systems. If it happens more than once in an hour the 5min timer doubles. So if you afk four times then you sit for 40mins. Seem fair to all players as it stops afk. If they are on after 15mins you know they are active. People would just make an extremely simple macro that would keep pressing a button every 10 minutes or so and keep hem logged on.. which would be worst for lag because the client would have to process that information for keeping them in, especially if its such a widespread problem as people make it out to be. Additionally, i like to sit in the game afk when im doing stuff so that i can log chats and check through them later to see if theres anything i missed... As for everything needing a counter to it. Whats the counter to FoF missiles? ZOMG there isnt one... unless you count defenders.. but then whats the counter to defenders? OH GOD THERE ISNT ONE! not everything has a counter.. certain things that dont have counters are intended to be the counters.. cloaks for probing.. FoF's for jamming, Defenders for missiles in general (even though defenders fail). There is no counter to smartbombs which appear to be the counter to drones. There is no counter to focused warp disruptors or warp disruption bubbles... no counter to doomsday devices. and since i wouldnt classify cloaking as a combat utility.. no counter to jump bridges, cynos (except in 0.0 with cyno jammers) etc etc... the list goes on and on... so shut up about there not being a counter, its a bad argument.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2008.10.19 02:55:00 - [149] I repeat, cloaking is NOT the problem. The problem is the LOCAL CHANNEL. Think about it.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.10.19 06:34:00 - [150] I love these topics. Brings out all the ******s that depend entirely on thier cloak to stay safe. Cloaking will get it's day in the nerf factory. First was nos. Now it's nano. Soon enough will be the permainvulnerablecloakofyoucan'ttouchthisevenwhenI'mafkness.

lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.10.19 08:05:00 - [151] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I love these topics. Brings out all the ******s that depend entirely on thier cloak to stay safe. Cloaking will get it's day in the nerf factory. First was nos. Now it's nano. Soon enough will be the permainvulnerablecloakofyoucan'ttouchthisevenwhenI'mafkness. lol the "nerf anything that does not sit still like the rats i pop" jihad rolls onwards........
Zathrus	Posted - 2008.10.19 10:45:00 - [152] Just make cloaks only usable on ships designed for them.
triQshot81	Posted - 2008.10.19 11:47:00 - [153] Blah, the cloak is the only thing that gives me an advantage when dealing with 0.0 space. When I'm rat farming a system, and 15 people jump in...what do you do...I warp to a safe spot and cloak. No point in getting ganked when you can avoid them. The cloak is fine. The WoW'whiners need to move back to WoW and leave the game alone. Take your elf and wizard magic with you. LEAVE THE CLOAK ALONE...oh and since I'm here, how about you (CCP) UN-NERF the torps. Takes my cloaky and goes back to rat farming.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.19 12:25:00 - [154] Edited by: Doc Iridium on 19/10/2008 12:27:10 Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Cloaking is not only great for griefers, it's great for everyone with any conceivable reason to hide. Thats great. What's not great, is that any pilot with half a brain and even less skill can warp to a safe spot, cloak, and coast off with a chance of being found. This means that for the grand cost of maybe a week's training, some noob pilot in a 20k isk frigate can make themself utterly untouchable, regardless of what force is brought to bear to locate them. So can anyone else. The absolute immunity to detection when cloaking is the single most broken part of EVE. Nothing else crushes the life out of solo or small group engagement gameplay like not being able to find solo or small group players because they are hiding with 100% certainty of successfully staying hidden. People who say that the current implementation of cloaking is not the worst possible implementation of a stealth system that they can possibly imagine are generally the ones abusing it as hard as they can. A partial list of abuses follow: 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. 2) Untouchable 0.0 Rathunters. A long range ship with good asteroid belt bookmarks can engage in PVE and at no time ever need to consider the possibility that they might actually get caught unless they simply don't understand how to properly abuse cloaking. 3) Hit and Run and hide/AFK tactics. Players stay cloaked in a busy system for days on end, only decloaking long enough for an attack on a vulnerable target that can be killed quickly, then they hide again for another few hours to several days. Until cloaking is limited in some meaningful way, PVP in EVE will remain severely broken.
triQshot81	Posted - 2008.10.19 12:37:00 - [155] Originally by: Doc Iridium Edited by: Doc Iridium on 19/10/2008 12:27:10 Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Cloaking is not only great for griefers, it's great for everyone with any conceivable reason to hide. Thats great. What's not great, is that any pilot with half a brain and even less skill can warp to a safe spot, cloak, and coast off with a chance of being found. Umm thats the point of a cloak. YOU not being able to find ME. What don't you get? Yes, if I'm rat farming, then why would I want to be engaged by someone PVP fitted? I wouldn't, I'd rather go cloak, **** YOU off, you leave, I go back to farming. You do know that you can equip a cloak too. There is no point for me to sit in a belt and wait for you to jump me. I like my ships. The cloak is fine. Have you looked at the penalties related to cloaking a battleship? If you can't warp away from a uncloaking BS, then your the slow one. So I think its time for you to go call the Whaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance. End your account and stick to minesweeper. This means that for the grand cost of maybe a week's training, some noob pilot in a 20k isk frigate can make themself utterly untouchable, regardless of what force is brought to bear to locate them. So can anyone else. The absolute immunity to detection when cloaking is the single most broken part of EVE. Nothing else crushes the life out of solo or small group engagement gameplay like not being able to find solo or small group players because they are hiding with 100% certainty of successfully staying hidden. People who say that the current implementation of cloaking is not the worst possible implementation of a stealth system that they can possibly imagine are generally the ones abusing it as hard as they can. A partial list of abuses follow: 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. 2) Untouchable 0.0 Rathunters. A long range ship with good asteroid belt bookmarks can engage in PVE and at no time ever need to consider the possibility that they might actually get caught unless they simply don't understand how to properly abuse cloaking. 3) Hit and Run and hide/AFK tactics. Players stay cloaked in a busy system for days on end, only decloaking long enough for an attack on a vulnerable target that can be killed quickly, then they hide again for another few hours to several days. Until cloaking is limited in some meaningful way, PVP in EVE will remain severely broken.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.19 12:43:00 - [156] Originally by: Doc Iridium 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. So what its not like they can hurt you if they are afk, and 1 look at their screen can tell them whats in local so commenting on "third party software" in a attempt to "fill out" a rather pathetic whine is a little sad imho. Originally by: Doc Iridium 2) Untouchable 0.0 Rathunters. A long range ship with good asteroid belt bookmarks can engage in PVE and at no time ever need to consider the possibility that they might actually get caught unless they simply don't understand how to properly abuse cloaking. They will just warp to a SS and log instead of cloaking bud, the only way to catch ratters in 0.0 is if they are not watching local. Originally by: Doc Iridium 3) Hit and Run and hide/AFK tactics. Players stay cloaked in a busy system for days on end, only decloaking long enough for an attack on a vulnerable target that can be killed quickly, then they hide again for another few hours to several days. Ok so instead of cloaking they bounce around safe spots in your ratting areas using the same "hit and run" tactics instead of cloaking, how do you intend to stop them?.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.19 12:54:00 - [157] Originally by: triQshot81 Edited by: triQshot81 on 19/10/2008 12:40:09 Edited by: triQshot81 on 19/10/2008 12:39:29 Originally by: Doc Iridium Edited by: Doc Iridium on 19/10/2008 12:27:10 Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Cloaking is not only great for griefers, it's great for everyone with any conceivable reason to hide. Thats great. What's not great, is that any pilot with half a brain and even less skill can warp to a safe spot, cloak, and coast off with a chance of being found. ________________________________________________________ Umm thats the point of a cloak. YOU not being able to find ME. What don't you get? Yes, if I'm rat farming, then why would I want to be engaged by someone PVP fitted? I wouldn't, I'd rather go cloak, **** YOU off, you leave, I go back to farming. You do know that you can equip a cloak too. There is no point for me to sit in a belt and wait for you to jump me. I like my ships. The cloak is fine. Have you looked at the penalties related to cloaking a battleship? If you can't warp away from a uncloaking BS, then your the slow one. So I think its time for you to go call the Whaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance. End your account and stick to minesweeper. If risking your ship is something you don't want to do, then don't hunt PVE in 0.0 unless there are defenders or friends nearby. Friends, yes, those other people that you are out in 0.0 with who don't want to pod you. If you like your Raven so much, and are unwilling to risk it, maybe you would be better off doing missions in highsec. There is a reason why the rewards are better in 0.0 - if you take away the risk, there is no longer a reason for the greater rewards.
triQshot81	Posted - 2008.10.19 13:03:00 - [158] Edited by: triQshot81 on 19/10/2008 13:03:52 I've been doing the mission thing, after running every lvl 4 they have...it gets boring. Yes the risk is greater in 0.0 and the cloak is an equalizer so to speak when a wolfpack jumps into the system. If I don't have a cloak, then I'll warp to a SS and log off. Its just easier to cloak and wait out them out. I have enough trouble getting passed P3 and IPAY to last me a life time. When I do manage to get a BS passed the gate camps, then I enjoy life in 0.0. You say nerf the cloak, I say nerf the warp bubble. Say it can only warp disrupt ships enbound to a gate, not people jumping into the system.
Builder Two	Posted - 2008.10.19 13:12:00 - [159] Edited by: Builder Two on 19/10/2008 13:13:47 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 19/10/2008 12:52:15 Originally by: Doc Iridium 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. So what its not like they can hurt you if they are afk, and 1 look at their screen can tell them whats in local so commenting on "third party software" in a attempt to "fill out" a rather pathetic whine is a little sad imho. Originally by: Doc Iridium 2) Untouchable 0.0 Rathunters. A long range ship with good asteroid belt bookmarks can engage in PVE and at no time ever need to consider the possibility that they might actually get caught unless they simply don't understand how to properly abuse cloaking. They will just warp to a SS and log instead of cloaking bud, the only way to catch ratters in 0.0 is if they are not watching local. Originally by: Doc Iridium 3) Hit and Run and hide/AFK tactics. Players stay cloaked in a busy system for days on end, only decloaking long enough for an attack on a vulnerable target that can be killed quickly, then they hide again for another few hours to several days. Ok so instead of cloaking they bounce around making new safe spots every warp in your ratting areas using the same "hit and run" tactics instead of cloaking, how do you intend to stop them?. After all a 6 x 1600mm plated Hyperion can turn and warp in 17ish seconds so it aint like probes are any use to a smart pilot even in a lump of a fitted BS..... It's all about balance and risk. There is not and can never be balance in a PVP system where one side can simply avoid engagement with no chance of failure. For any PVP environment to be balanced at all, there can be no absolutes. Nothing should be uncounterable. Nobody should be able to go AFK with 100% certainty that even though they are outnumbered 200 to 1 in a system, they are untouchable. If you don't think that third party local monitoring software is used quite successfully by some people, you don't know enough to have this conversation. Part of the reason it is used so successfully is because it can be used by "unplayed" characters that are absolutely safe. A warp and log character can be caught. It's not easy, but it is possible. A warp and log character can't know for certain what they are logging back into either. A highly skilled player can lead a merry chase without cloaking, yes, but they can't go AFK and eat lunch then come back later when their attackers have gotten bored and wandered off. They cannot eat up huge amounts of defensive PVPers time while they are AFK sleeping or at work. Broke is broke is broke. Any PVP feature that cannot be countered is broken. Edit Bleh, if you didn't figure it out already, this is a Doc Iridium industrial alt :)
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.19 13:21:00 - [160] Originally by: triQshot81 Edited by: triQshot81 on 19/10/2008 13:03:52 I've been doing the mission thing, after running every lvl 4 they have...it gets boring. Yes the risk is greater in 0.0 and the cloak is an equalizer so to speak when a wolfpack jumps into the system. If I don't have a cloak, then I'll warp to a SS and log off. Its just easier to cloak and wait out them out. I have enough trouble getting passed P3 and IPAY to last me a life time. When I do manage to get a BS passed the gate camps, then I enjoy life in 0.0. You say nerf the cloak, I say nerf the warp bubble. Say it can only warp disrupt ships enbound to a gate, not people jumping into the system. The thing about warp bubbles is that they are not uncounterable. If a gang is on a gate with a bubble, another gang can come kill them and take down the bubble. Are there room for changes to bubbles? Meh, maybe. I'm not terribly concerned with tactics that can be countered with reasonable risk vs effort vs reward scenarios.

Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:06:00 - [161] Edited by: Murina on 19/10/2008 14:14:15 Originally by: Builder Two It's all about balance and risk. There is not and can never be balance in a PVP system where one side can simply avoid engagement with no chance of failure. For any PVP environment to be balanced at all, there can be no absolutes. Nothing should be uncounterable. Nobody should be able to go AFK with 100% certainty that even though they are outnumbered 200 to 1 in a system, they are untouchable. A cloaked ship cannot be killed unless its inside 250km of a DDD or smart bomb/bomb range while its cloaked, but also it cannot kill at all while its cloaked. That is the very definition of balanced. Originally by: Builder Two A warp and log character can be caught. Only if he is stupid as logging mid warp is uncatchable. Originally by: Builder Two A warp and log character can't know for certain what they are logging back into either. login, check local, ctrl-q if nasty peeps are still around. Originally by: Builder Two A highly skilled player can lead a merry chase without cloaking, yes, but they can't go AFK and eat lunch then come back later when their attackers have gotten bored and wandered off. They cannot eat up huge amounts of defensive PVPers time while they are AFK sleeping or at work. If your pvpers are having their time eaten up by afk cloakers i suggest you tell your ratters and miners to get in a gang together. That is the answer tbh..organization all alliances should have a carebear channel that ppl can join and get into a gang together while they are ratting and mining, not only can you setup gang bonuses to increase your yield but its also social and will allow you to vaporize the cloaker if he decides to attack. Your not asking for a balance to cloaks your asking for a way to avoid the need to be organized. Originally by: Builder Two Broke is broke is broke. Any PVP feature that cannot be countered is broken. Organization = counter to cloaking, afk or not afk. After all a fella could be sitting in a station and be invulnerable and you would still need to watch the exit or the docking tab.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.20 00:50:00 - [162] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 19/10/2008 18:02:43 Originally by: Builder Two It's all about balance and risk. There is not and can never be balance in a PVP system where one side can simply avoid engagement with no chance of failure. For any PVP environment to be balanced at all, there can be no absolutes. Nothing should be uncounterable. Nobody should be able to go AFK with 100% certainty that even though they are outnumbered 200 to 1 in a system, they are untouchable. A cloaked ship cannot be killed unless its inside 250km of a DDD or smart bomb/bomb range while its cloaked, but also it cannot kill at all while its cloaked. That is the very definition of balanced. While it is the case that cloaked ships cannot attack when cloaked, this does not make their 100% immunity to any defensive action balanced. Even when cloaked, any pilot with more than a couple months of age must be considered a risk. This means that at any time, a smartbomb battleship can decloak on a miner or hauler, a recon cruiser or stealth bomber can decloak on pretty much any ratting ship. Teams of cloak abusers can gasp work together just like anyone else, and they do. Individuals with multiple accounts can abuse the cloaking system even more efficiently. Scenario: One sniper battleship and a couple recon ships. They stay logged in 23/7 only out of system during downtime. Defenders are bored as crap because they have been on guard duty for 22 hours with no action while cloak abusers are at work / asleep / masterbating / watching TV / on alts / AFK. Maybe the defenders are afk, or on alts, whatever, but they are not ready for instant action because gasp the broken cloaking system makes it so they cannot actively defend. Unearned massive advantage to the cloak abusers - THEY get to choose the time and place of their attack, AND can do so after extreme lengths of complete immunity to all possible defensive action. PVP should be about risk and actions taken, not complete immunity to all risk and lack of any action. Two EW recons and a sniper battleship will tear holes in just about any group of miners or ratters. Any sufficiently powerful grouping of miners or ratters that might be a concern will simply be waited out until people disperse a bit. BOREDOM is the AFK abuser's greatest weapon. No defender or aggressor is immune to it. With sufficient boredom, mistakes are made, people wander off, attention wanders. When boredom becomes a major PVP tactic, how interesting is PVP? There are lots of ways cloaking can be tweaked to reduce the current severe broken-ness. My personal favorite would be to require manual interaction every few minutes to stabilize the cloaking field. If you don't stabilize it, it collapses. This would have to be something that would not be possible to bot. Something like a simple puzzle which generates an analog image that must be deciphered into a series of letters, similar to what you see on the web would be ideal. It needs to be complex enough that it takes at least a little while to solve, but not terribly difficult because some people just aren't good at puzzles. The higher your cloaking skill, and the better the meta level of your cloak device, the longer you can remain cloaked betwen restabilizing efforts. ranging from 3-5 minutes up to maybe 20 minutes. Allowing AFK players to dictate how active players play, and allowing said AFK players to use boredom as a weapon against active players is simply broken. PVP should mean Player vs Player, not Player vs Empty Chair. Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot!
Falkus Windowmaker Minmatar Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.20 03:09:00 - [163] Edited by: Falkus Windowmaker on 20/10/2008 03:15:24 Originally by: xhardxcorex Originally by: Dr Slaughter Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Its only psychological warfare to people who have severe mental issues. /\__ Speaking of which.. I think they should ban docking and POS shields as both cause me lots of 'grief' too. A docked character can only undock from a hostile station once. A station can be taken. A POS can be taken down. Explain how you counter someone sitting cloaked. Hmmmm.....In regards to player owned stations....IMHO there should be a count down period in which when the end is reached ( say 2 weeks ) the now hostile station ejects a person from the station into space. After 2 weeks the moment you log in your former station you are ejected from the station into space. Be it in your pod or ship and any property you have is gone forever in that station. I might be up for allowing folks to have their stuff moved automagically to a home clone station in Empire but IMHO that needs some fee to be paid by the player.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Shadow.	Posted - 2008.10.20 04:13:00 - [164] Another one
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.20 06:37:00 - [165] My, my. A whole bunch of people missing the point and feeling highly intelligent when they do so :-) The "problem" with cloakers is not afk, non-afk, whatever - it's initiative. Of course you can prepare a trap for the cloaker. But if he doesn't bite, if he just stays AFK with his beer in the garden, you are waiting stupidly and can't have a beer in the garden. Then you grow bored and do other stuff, he comes back, and checks whether he can gank stuff now. Traps work still, though. But the initiative is fully and completely with the cloaker. And that is the problem the OP was trying to talk about. There is no way to take the initiative from the cloaker. There's not much fun in a group of 4-5 cloakers in your central system all day long that gank stuff twice a day. Originally by: Mioelnir The moment cloaks get nerfed, people that rat with cloaks fitted will simply logout again. Will you then ask CCP to remove logging off from game? And this is the important to remember. Cloaking is fine. It's an alternative to logging off that actually has in-game drawbacks. Sadly, that means that the cloaking ratting Raven will not be "fixable" :-( Solution to the initiative part, though: 1) Add an "afk" flag to local. Top right corner of the char portrait, where the logged in/logged off thingy from your buddy list would go. As soon as you do something in-game, that flag goes away. If you don't do anything for 10 minutes (random number, adjust as needed), show the flag. Remove the flag as soon as they do anything. 2) If this is not enough yet, make it so that you have a 30s delay or so before you can do something when you are afk and cloaked or docked. Some kind of timer saying "regaining consciousness" or so. (Obviously no timer if you are not cloaked)
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 09:36:00 - [166] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 09:37:10 Originally by: Doc Iridium While it is the case that cloaked ships cannot attack when cloaked, this does not make their 100% immunity to any defensive action balanced. Teams of cloak abusers can gasp work together just like anyone else, and they do. Individuals with multiple accounts can abuse the cloaking system even more efficiently. Cloakers cannot attack and cannot be attacked while cloaked that is total balance in fact they get locking penalties just for fitting a cloak as well. Miners and ratters can also gasp work together in a gang and defend themselves. Ratters and miners with multiple accounts can defend themselves even more efficiently.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.20 11:41:00 - [167] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 09:37:10 Originally by: Doc Iridium While it is the case that cloaked ships cannot attack when cloaked, this does not make their 100% immunity to any defensive action balanced. Teams of cloak abusers can gasp work together just like anyone else, and they do. Individuals with multiple accounts can abuse the cloaking system even more efficiently. Cloakers cannot attack and cannot be attacked while cloaked that is total balance in fact they get locking penalties just for fitting a cloak as well. Miners and ratters can also gasp work together in a gang and defend themselves. Ratters and miners with multiple accounts can defend themselves even more efficiently. You completely avoid the point here that PVP should not be preparedness endurance contests between active players and empty chairs. Empty chairs tend to win those sorts of contests. Saying "miners and ratters can gang together and defend themselves" is not an answer to the AFK cloaker's ability to hit their "I Win" button and go do something else for 20 hours while potential defenders either set up traps that are meaningless or gate camps that are eye bleeding boredom generators that only enhance the obvious broken-ness of EVE PVP. Cloaking ships should not have the ability to turn on the boredom clock at will and wait for it to degrade the performance of other players' PVP game. In it's current implementation, cloaking is simply broken. AFK PVP. hrm. What we need next is something to let people actually do things in EVE while they are cloaked - that way nobody ever gets to see anyone else! The perfect answer! Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot!
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 11:59:00 - [168] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 12:00:02 Originally by: Doc Iridium Saying "miners and ratters can gang together and defend themselves" is not an answer to the AFK cloaker's ability to hit their "I Win" button and go do something else for 20 hours. Clicking a button that says "join gang" does not cost anything and if you and other carebears actually worked together instead of just nerfing anything in the game that stops YOUR "I-can-rat-mine-solo-in-0.0-screw-ganging-up-or-being-organized-BUTTON". An AFK player "I-WINS" nothing against organized players and screwing over a module cos you cannot be bothered to organize is wrong.....and if this is such a great pvp game as you claim, being constantly prepared for pvp should not be a problem for you now should it?.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:20:00 - [169] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 12:00:02 Originally by: Doc Iridium Saying "miners and ratters can gang together and defend themselves" is not an answer to the AFK cloaker's ability to hit their "I Win" button and go do something else for 20 hours. Clicking a button that says "join gang" does not cost anything and if you and other carebears actually worked together instead of just nerfing anything in the game that stops YOUR "I-can-rat-mine-solo-in-0.0-screw-ganging-up-or-being-organized-BUTTON". An AFK player "I-WINS" nothing against organized players and screwing over a module cos you cannot be bothered to organize is wrong.....and if this is such a great pvp game as you claim, being constantly prepared for pvp should not be a problem for you now should it?. Nothing breaks a PVP game quite like boredom and enforced inactivity. Trying to PVP against empty chairs leaves you no choice other than to be bored - or go try to do something more active. The average person interested in PVP is not interested in sitting around doing absolutely nothing for 99% of their game time, in the hopes of getting a three second opportunity maybe twice per day to PVP. EVE is a PVP game. PVP games draw action-oriented people. AFK PVP players are action oriented people too, that's why they abuse the "I win" cloaking button so much - it lets them do other things while their primary PVP weapon, boredom, does most of the prepwork for their next kill for them, and allows them to generate "instant action" while defenders have been developing bleeding eyeball syndrome for the last 20 hours, and are unprepared at best, or AFK themselves at worst. Boredom should not be the most effective PVP weapon in any PVP game. The current implementation of cloaking in EVE ensures that boredom is, in fact, more powerful than any other force that can be brought to bear.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:21:00 - [170] Originally by: Doc Iridium What's not great, is that any pilot with half a brain and even less skill can warp to a safe spot, cloak, and coast off with a chance of being found. How is this different to docking or logging off? Originally by: Doc Iridium 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. Docking works pretty well too.. Originally by: Doc Iridium 2) Untouchable 0.0 Rathunters. A long range ship with good asteroid belt bookmarks can engage in PVE and at no time ever need to consider the possibility that they might actually get caught unless they simply don't understand how to properly abuse cloaking. Logging off works pretty well for this... Originally by: Doc Iridium 3) Hit and Run and hide/AFK tactics. Players stay cloaked in a busy system for days on end, only decloaking long enough for an attack on a vulnerable target that can be killed quickly, then they hide again for another few hours to several days. Seems rather the point of having a cloak? There are certainly enough disadvantages to fitting one. What would you prefer? Massive blobs and gatecamps? I'm impressed people actually take the time and trouble to do the above, given that a gatecamp is so much easier to organise. I just don't buy your argument that cloaking is broken and kills PvP. It forces people to think, true, but I don't see that as a bad thing. As for cloaks not having counters, and systems without counters being bad for PvP - what is the counter for probes if not cloaks? ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects

triQshot81	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:23:00 - [171] True enough, if I'm going to go PVP'n, then no I wont fit a cloak. I will however fit a cloak when rat farming. I will fit a cloak when flying my stealth bomber. If you want to nerf anything, then how about we make the stealth bomber more realistic, ie....you can't lock on to it b/c its stealthy. I still say nerfing the cloak is a bad idea, no point in it. Thats what they are made for, to hide from people. I'm going to say this to tick off low sec rats Nerf all low sec fire, if a person has -5.0 status, they cannot engage anyone unless they are in 0.0. Thanks to all the low sec crackheads that make life most painful. You know who you are....and thanks for teaching me a painfull lesson 3 times. Why take a BS out of empire when I can buy 1 in 0.0.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:27:00 - [172] Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 12:26:52 Originally by: Murina Clicking a button that says "join gang" does not cost anything and if you and other carebears actually worked together instead of just nerfing anything in the game that stops YOUR "I-can-rat-mine-solo-in-0.0-screw-ganging-up-or-being-organized-BUTTON". An AFK player "I-WINS" nothing against organized players and screwing over a module cos you cannot be bothered to organize is wrong.....and if this is such a great pvp game as you claim, being constantly prepared for pvp should not be a problem for you now should it?. Originally by: Doc Iridium Nothing breaks a PVP game quite like boredom and enforced inactivity. Trying to PVP against empty chairs leaves you no choice other than to be bored - or go try to do something more active. Your not trying to force pvp you do not give a crap about it, your trying to make it so you can rat and mine solo without the need for organization in 0.0.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:53:00 - [173] Edited by: Doc Iridium on 20/10/2008 12:54:15 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 12:28:09 Originally by: Murina Clicking a button that says "join gang" does not cost anything and if you and other carebears actually worked together instead of just nerfing anything in the game that stops YOUR "I-can-rat-mine-solo-in-0.0-screw-ganging-up-or-being-organized-BUTTON". An AFK player "I-WINS" nothing against organized players and screwing over a module cos you cannot be bothered to organize is wrong.....and if this is such a great pvp game as you claim, being constantly prepared for pvp should not be a problem for you now should it?. Originally by: Doc Iridium Nothing breaks a PVP game quite like boredom and enforced inactivity. Trying to PVP against empty chairs leaves you no choice other than to be bored - or go try to do something more active. Your not trying to force pvp you do not give a crap about it, your trying to make it so you can rat and mine solo without the need for organization in 0.0. I do not claim this to be a great PVP game, I claim it is a PVP game which has a severe fault in that the most effective small group PVP tactic is actually doing nothing at all. As mentioned before, one of the groups of people that benefit from cloaking being broken the way it is, is ratters in 0.0 If you remove cloaking, they will simply logoff. Fixing cloaking won't fix that. Null argument. Amazingly enough, if there is an inactivity timer to preclude AFK cloaking and AFK cloak botting, actively played cloaking ships gasp won't be affected at all, and any cloaker willing to take the time and effort to actually wait for an opportunity can PVP. Oh No gasp does that mean attackers will have to be patient as defenders! gasp Unfair! Allowing an even playing field would be against the AFK cloaker's guild rules! Cloaking in it's current implementation is broken NOT because it allows ships to be undetectable, it's because it allows ships to be undetectable while players are _AFK_. Players who are not playing the game actively should not be able to affect the PVP gameplay of those that are. Before you bring up the "people in station" argument, yes, that needs to be fixed as well. Perhaps with a similar AFK timer as I mentioned before. EVE needs to break away from allowing AFK players the ability to affect PVP. Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot!
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:00:00 - [174] Cloaking does what it says on the tin, its a counter to probing and to scanning you should be glad you have local and stop complaining about needing to be organized. AFK cloaking or ACTIVE cloaking the truth is you would not care if you were in a gang and prepared WHILE you were ratting and mining. After the first few times he uncloaked and hit your belt to be greeted by a gang of deranged carebears warping in and wasting him he will move to a area that is not so prepared and all they need do is the same as you. That simple truth is why cloaking is fine.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:23:00 - [175] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 13:11:03 Cloaking does what it says on the tin, its a counter to probing and to scanning you should be glad you have local and stop complaining about needing to be organized. AFK cloaking or ACTIVE cloaking the truth is you would not care if you were in a gang and prepared WHILE you were ratting and mining. After the first few times he uncloaked and hit your belt to be greeted by a gang of deranged carebears warping in and wasting him he will move to a area that is not so prepared and all they need do is the same as you. That simple truth is why cloaking is fine what your talking about is a way to make your 0.0 macro mining operations easier. Back up your accusations of me macroing or get off that track. The gang of deranged carebears fell asleep 9 hours after the AFK-and-cloak pilot went to work.
ShadowLord56	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:43:00 - [176] if your so worried that hes gathering Intel while hes doing the laundry we will do this. take a fleet of the biggest ship you have and fly every square inch until you bump into that 2km range problem solved. in all honesty if hes calling the big guns to ** your alliance/corp up its going to happen, and to keep on your toes you have YOUR cloaked ships watching for big doom fleets now please stop ***ing, goodnight
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.21 04:36:00 - [177] Let's open another can of worms: Cloak, MWD, align, decloak, warp. www.siigarikitawa.com
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:43:00 - [178] Originally by: Doc Iridium Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 20/10/2008 13:11:03 Cloaking does what it says on the tin, its a counter to probing and to scanning you should be glad you have local and stop complaining about needing to be organized. AFK cloaking or ACTIVE cloaking the truth is you would not care if you were in a gang and prepared WHILE you were ratting and mining. After the first few times he uncloaked and hit your belt to be greeted by a gang of deranged carebears warping in and wasting him he will move to a area that is not so prepared and all they need do is the same as you. That simple truth is why cloaking is fine what your talking about is a way to make your 0.0 macro mining operations easier. Back up your accusations of me macroing or get off that track. Ah can give it but cannot take it..... Originally by: Doc Iridium 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. Back up yours and il follow you of the track mmkay?.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.21 12:23:00 - [179] Edited by: Doc Iridium on 21/10/2008 12:24:36 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 21/10/2008 09:59:15 Originally by: Doc Iridium Originally by: Murina Cloaking does what it says on the tin, its a counter to probing and to scanning you should be glad you have local and stop complaining about needing to be organized. AFK cloaking or ACTIVE cloaking the truth is you would not care if you were in a gang and prepared WHILE you were ratting and mining. After the first few times he uncloaked and hit your belt to be greeted by a gang of deranged carebears warping in and wasting him he will move to a area that is not so prepared and all they need do is the same as you. That simple truth is why cloaking is fine what your talking about is a way to make your 0.0 macro mining operations easier. Originally by: Doc Iridium 1) Infinite duration stakeout. Log in after downtime, turn on third party software to record people in local. Go play another character. Parse data at leisure. Back up your accusations and il follow you of the track mmkay?. Either English is not your native language, or you are being intentionally difficult. It was abundantly clear in that post you pulled that from that I mentioned the above behavior as a problem. I do not use macros or third party client-interactive software. This is most likely simply a side-step attempt to get out of an argument you are losing. Cloaking in it's current implementation is quite simply broken. Adding some sort of AFK-preventer would be enough of a change for me, provided it was impossible to bot. At least then I will know that I am in competition with a live pilot, which means the other pilot(s) have to measure their effort and patience against any possible reward, just as the defenders must.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:00:00 - [180] Originally by: Doc Iridium It was abundantly clear in that post you pulled that from that I mentioned the above behavior as a problem. I do not use macros or third party client-interactive software. If your gonna point fingers at ppl, you should not complain when they point them back was the point i was making bud. I have used cloaks a lot but i have never used any sort of third party software and like you i do not like getting accused of doing so fair enough?, nor do i see any real worthwhile use to it as a spying tool tbh. Originally by: Doc Iridium Adding some sort of AFK-preventer would be enough of a change for me, provided it was impossible to bot. I have no problem with a countdown timer that you need to click every (insert time frame) to stay cloaked tbh. But a probe is out of the question as cloaking is a counter to probing in the first place.

RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:39:00 - [181] Originally by: Bylok Edited by: Bylok on 16/10/2008 21:48:51 Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Oh you poor precious little darling, are the nasty cloakers taking your lunch money? But seriously, stop making threads about this (and that goes to everyone making a cloak whine thread). Flying cloaky is a valid and reasonable playstyle, are these threads really just stealth F***** whines? Its not a singleplayer game, deal with it etc...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.21 14:42:00 - [182] Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/10/2008 14:44:08 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous. Happily carebearing away with infallible local is not dangerous. If you can't protect yourself in 0.0 then you don't deserve to be there.
Ewa White White Omega	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:02:00 - [183] Quote: Cloaking requires that you get into the system and... that you go make a sandwich, do the laundry and come back in a few hours. Funny because its true , I do that :) Ewa
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:23:00 - [184] first off, remove local = remove the problem. second, cloaks do have a scan resolution penalty coupled with a targeting delay. your effectivly damping yourself as well as giving your target a head start to get away. if you get probed out in low sec doing a mission by one of the afk cloaking people then its your own dumb fault for getting caught. we had several people in our alliance fall victim to it. first time we told them how to avoid it, second time we laughed at them. as far as 0.0 goes, there have been plenty of times where my heart felt like it was gonna pop out if my chest as the intercepters and cruisers did a sweep in the space next to me, often coming very close to uncloaking me, and even succesful a few times. If you know what your doing you can counter and/or avoid it. one way to avoid getting ganked is to use your scanner. if your in a mission and a snoop probe shows up on the directional, then align to a warpable object and shout prober over any friendly channel you got open. Point is this, if you get probed by a covert ops, ganked by a recon, or for epic failures caught by a T1 cloaking battleship, its your own dumb fault. don't cry nerf cloaks after you get ganked. learn how to avoid it. There were several people back at our old low sec stomping grounds that we could never catch. they didn't have any T2 detection modules or anti-cloaking 50km smartbombs, all they used was a free, standard issue directional scanner, a simple, but very effective tool that too many people don't know how to use. /end rant
arbiter reformed	Posted - 2008.10.22 14:33:00 - [185] no word from the dev yet? Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:54:00 - [186] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/10/2008 18:55:59 Oh god another one of these threads. The "problem" is the OP is afraid of a hostile in local, and will not do anything about it. He wont form a gang, he wont set a trap, he wont try and defend himself, he wont do anything. He just wants an easy way to get rid of somebody in local. Who may or may not actually be cloaked. Cloaks are balanced, the cloaked pilot cant do anything besides get intel while cloaked. The real issue is "local", and the OP's unwillingness to do anything about a hostile in local. Please OP, and other cloak nerf supporters, this issue has been discussed to death. Use the search function.
Bylok	Posted - 2008.10.23 00:48:00 - [187] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/10/2008 18:55:59 Oh god another one of these threads. The "problem" is the OP is afraid of a hostile in local, and will not do anything about it. He wont form a gang, he wont set a trap, he wont try and defend himself, he wont do anything. He just wants an easy way to get rid of somebody in local. Who may or may not actually be cloaked. Cloaks are balanced, the cloaked pilot cant do anything besides get intel while cloaked. The real issue is "local", and the OP's unwillingness to do anything about a hostile in local. Please OP, and other cloak nerf supporters, this issue has been discussed to death. Use the search function. You are a ass you dont know what I did and didnt do. The problem child is no longer in our space and was dealt with. Forming a gang lol for what maybe actually try reading this guy didnt attack he just sat there feeding intel now what EXACTLY is a gang going to do to him? The pest had nothing to do with my post and the pest was delt with accordingly but it took way to long and was just boring as hell. I know full well he had a alt account and just sat there for days. As far as sweeping the system and gettig withen 2000 dont make me laugh. Probe for him ya learn the game probes dont detect cloakers, using on board scanner, well thats nice if you saw him go to his hole he called his safe spot but guess what doesnt WORK unless you see them go that way. Every single way all of you point out to beet a cloaker, making a lame attempt at griefing (well he was there for days so perhaps not lame) is just not factual. But keep on posting the rants its almost funny to read them. Oh and for the guy that said DONT post any post like this anymore, like I care what you say or think.
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.10.23 02:08:00 - [188] here's a thought you knew there was a guy gathering intel in your system, which means that he couldn't have been afk to gather it, he had to be actually watching the screen, so you dont want to find a way to nerf afk cloakers, you wanna nerf them accross the board. secondly, you claim its an alt. if so it doesnt matter if its a cloaker or not and if theres a station in the system your screwed either way. alts are expendable, you pop it and its no loss to him, he'll just send another one. point is simple, nerfing cloaks wouldn't change the outcome here, only remove the only tank that cov ops have. how would you like it if we made modules to instantly zap caldari's shields and quickly strip armor off an amarr battleship. would suck wouldn't it. the only thing cov ops can while being perfectly safe is gather intel. probing requires you to uncloak, not to mention the probe is a giant i'm here to gank you sign anyone within 14 au can see. take away the recons cloak and you take away thier only advantage. touch the cloak in any way and you will break the game, as well as put half of my skill points down the drain do to an unusable class of ships from cov ops to black ops
Cajoes Starfurie Gallente Federation of Xenotech Xenotech Celestial Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.23 10:23:00 - [189] Just want to throw something out here, since it managed to appease a small group of quarrelers in game. Now the idea is not new, it is not unique, I'm fairly confident it's been posted before somewhere. And I sure as heck am not taking any credit for it. But here goes. Split the module into two. A Stealth module that prevents your ship from being scanned down in a system. But your ship remains fully visible and target able, to the human visual spectra at least. & A Cloaking module, which render your ship completely invisible and un-target able. But you can be scanned down with persistent probing or other means. Of course, then we'd have a whole slew of new issues. But I'm tired of pondering this over and over. It is a silly thing to be annoyed at anyway. Quote: "Do not argue against the sun, it is a lot brighter than you are."
Wesdon Carline Amarr Mercantile Investments Novus Aevum	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:52:00 - [190] Absolutely not. Cloaking is fine, the penalties are more than fair as is. And if you're getting killed by any frigate witha CovOps Cloak, gimme your stuff and quit. Matter of fact, DON'T gimme your stuff, it'd prolly taint my hangar with eternal bad fittings.

Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:14:00 - [191] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/10/2008 18:55:59 Oh god another one of these threads. The "problem" is the OP is afraid of a hostile in local, and will not do anything about it. He wont form a gang, he wont set a trap, he wont try and defend himself, he wont do anything. He just wants an easy way to get rid of somebody in local. Who may or may not actually be cloaked. Cloaks are balanced, the cloaked pilot cant do anything besides get intel while cloaked. The real issue is "local", and the OP's unwillingness to do anything about a hostile in local. Please OP, and other cloak nerf supporters, this issue has been discussed to death. Use the search function. There is absolutely nothing at all that can be done to counter the presence of an AFK cloaker. Forming a gang? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Creating a trap? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Trying to defend yourself? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK However, you MUST do these things because the threat of a cloaked player must be recognized and acknowledged, unless you know for a fact that said player is in a pathetic ship, or is such a feeble player that they can pretty much be ignored. Any player over a couple months old no longer fits in that category. Now you might say, and many HAVE said that there is nothing wrong with cloaking. As a cov ops 5 pilot I agree that the mechanics of cloaking work just fine, though I wouldn't mind a change in how local works, so a cloaked ship cannot see local or be seen in local. My problem isn't with how cloaking works, it's with how it is _abused_ by AFK players. There needs to be a change to the cloaking system that disallows afk cloaking. If someone is cloaked in system, harassing their enemies, they damn well should actually be there doing the harassing. If the defenders must maintain constant vigilance in the face of a possible threat, the very least we should require from cloaked ships is that they acknowledge that they are actually playing the game every now and then. I do not believe that asking to be allowed to compete against other players is asking too much.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:53:00 - [192] Originally by: Doc Iridium Originally by: Aarin Wrath Oh god another one of these threads. The "problem" is the OP is afraid of a hostile in local, and will not do anything about it. He wont form a gang, he wont set a trap, he wont try and defend himself, he wont do anything. He just wants an easy way to get rid of somebody in local. Who may or may not actually be cloaked. Cloaks are balanced, the cloaked pilot cant do anything besides get intel while cloaked. The real issue is "local", and the OP's unwillingness to do anything about a hostile in local. Please OP, and other cloak nerf supporters, this issue has been discussed to death. Use the search function. There is absolutely nothing at all that can be done to counter the presence of an AFK cloaker. Forming a gang? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Creating a trap? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Trying to defend yourself? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Threat level if he is actually AFK?......NONE. Left click "join gang" deals with if he is not AFK.......too hard for ya?.
Dalai Dan	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:58:00 - [193] Originally by: Doc Iridium Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/10/2008 18:55:59 Oh god another one of these threads. The "problem" is the OP is afraid of a hostile in local, and will not do anything about it. He wont form a gang, he wont set a trap, he wont try and defend himself, he wont do anything. He just wants an easy way to get rid of somebody in local. Who may or may not actually be cloaked. Cloaks are balanced, the cloaked pilot cant do anything besides get intel while cloaked. The real issue is "local", and the OP's unwillingness to do anything about a hostile in local. Please OP, and other cloak nerf supporters, this issue has been discussed to death. Use the search function. There is absolutely nothing at all that can be done to counter the presence of an AFK cloaker. Forming a gang? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Creating a trap? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK Trying to defend yourself? Meaningless if the cloaked player is AFK However, you MUST do these things because the threat of a cloaked player must be recognized and acknowledged, unless you know for a fact that said player is in a pathetic ship, or is such a feeble player that they can pretty much be ignored. Any player over a couple months old no longer fits in that category. Now you might say, and many HAVE said that there is nothing wrong with cloaking. As a cov ops 5 pilot I agree that the mechanics of cloaking work just fine, though I wouldn't mind a change in how local works, so a cloaked ship cannot see local or be seen in local. My problem isn't with how cloaking works, it's with how it is _abused_ by AFK players. There needs to be a change to the cloaking system that disallows afk cloaking. If someone is cloaked in system, harassing their enemies, they damn well should actually be there doing the harassing. If the defenders must maintain constant vigilance in the face of a possible threat, the very least we should require from cloaked ships is that they acknowledge that they are actually playing the game every now and then. I do not believe that asking to be allowed to compete against other players is asking too much. This is nonsense. You dont need to do ANYTHING difficult to protect against the afk, because they are AFK. When they come back from AFK (which you of course, cannot predict) you just warp to whichever ratter has been picked on, and all shoot him. Its not like he's at his most vulnerable or anything at that point (oh wait, yes he is) or that you have a perfect mechanic to immediately arrive on scene (warp to gang member). Seeing as you were all in a gang (not exactly a strenuous task) when you logged in, and on voice-comms, right? Just have a "ratting" room on vent/TS, and a running ratting gang. Simple rule: if you aren't in those then you are sacrificed to the "afk" cloaker. These are basic level things, simple organisation. Its not like you have to prepare a trap and STOP your ratting, and all sit cloaked yourself, although you can if you want. The only time this could possibly not work is if you are solo. In which case, you deserve to get preyed on, thats sort of the point. This doesn't require "constant vigilance", jsut the basic organisation that when a threat presents, you are ready to respond. You only have to change your organisation, NOT your activity. AFK cant hurt you. When they come back, kill them.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:41:00 - [194] Edited by: Doc Iridium on 23/10/2008 13:41:38 And yet again, people consider game mechanics to be an answer to the simple fact that AFK players should not have any direct influence on how active players play a game. If you aren't playing the game, I shouldn't have to worry about you. If I'm not playing the game, you shouldn't have to worry about me. People blow up macrominers regularly, and nearly everyone is in support. There is normally a communal cheer when someone manages to catch and trash MacroRaven4466, and yet there is some irrational belief from many here that AFK players actively influencing how other players play in PVP areas is perfectly OK. Honestly, it makes no sense. Period. I've written off 0.0 PVP in EVE due to the fact that I have no interest in blobbing, gatecamping, or testing my patience against an empty chair, which is about all the 0.0 PVP that EVE has to offer me. I'm a defensive oriented PVPer. I want to defend what I help build. When defending consists of dozens of hours of enforced camping, with the occasional three second window of opportunity to catch a person at a gate or as they realize they are in a trap, I've lost interest. If AFK cloaking were made impossible by methods I've already described, I would at least know that the enemies in system were at keyboard like me. If they have more patience than I do, that's well and good, but at least I know they are actually there. Again, and even simpler. It is rediculous to allow AFK players to have a direct impact on PVP play in any game. Enforced boredom does not make happy players.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:44:00 - [195] I do not think we need to change the counter to cloaks, getting within range is enough. The main fault with cloaks, is that it should take a lot of CPU power to calculate and cloak a ship. A frigate should be able to cloak in a couple of seconds (as now), but a battleship should take a minute of processing before the cloak is activated. The cloak function should be time delayed by the size of the ship. Also the larger the ship, the more cap should be required to keep the cloak active. Only the cap stable/small ships would be able to stay cloaked indefinitely.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:53:00 - [196] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 23/10/2008 13:53:26 Edit: grammar Originally by: Murina Threat level if he is actually AFK?......NONE. Left click "join gang" deals with if he is not AFK.......too hard for ya?. At least somebody had the brains to understand my point. Originally by: Bylok You are a ass you dont know what I did and didnt do. Nice emo rage there Bylok. Did I hit a nerve perhaps? shesh grow up.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:03:00 - [197] Adding an AFK flag for inactive players sounds perfectly fine and reasonable to me. Any kind of minigame to keep up my cloak would be annoying. And no - I do not go afk when I'm cloaked. I am paying to play this game so I play it actively.
Killian Bekker Caldari Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.10.24 01:39:00 - [198] Oh noes, the scary cloaked man is in my system for days collecting intel and I have no means to counter him. 1) Scout the surrounding systems. Guess what? You can see what he sees. Intel. Red comes in, Blue fights back. 2) Are you so paranoid that your movements are so critical that the cloaked individual will reveal some uberpwn buildup? See Part 1. 3) If I'm going to sit in a system for days, and you consider it "griefing" then I'm a "griefer". Yes, I watch local and see who comes in/out. If I'm near a gate, I see what ships but no fittings as I'm cloaked and can't scan and who is flying them. Can't scan cargoholds, as no scanners while cloaked. Hmm, not seeing the imbalance. See Part 1 4) A huge force rolls out and moves out of system. Well, I see x ships going through x gate of type x,y, and z. Or maybe I don't as I can only see Gate x, not y and z, etc. Not seeing an advantage other than eyes. See Part 1. Every scenario involves counter intelligence as a counter. We can see you, so what? Come see us. You bring your fleet, we know what you got, but not fits or resists or anything as WE ARE CLOAKED.... meaning, can't do much. Sure, I can uncloak and get popped. So, you run back and change ships. Or maybe leave through a different gate. Maybe you do things to make false alarms to confuse the intel pilot. I'm watching you... menacingly... but that's all I can do as I'm cloaked. I can pewpew little ships in my Stealth Bomber, but I'm sure if you come to find me I will die if you find me. Which... if I don't uncloak, you can't... but then all I can do is hide and watch... menacingly... Nerf Cloaks? Nerf carebears that can't see past their own nose. You want to counter something that can only hide and watch. Think outside of the box and stop asking for a nerf when you can't think of simple solutions to simple problems. --------------------------------------------------
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.24 03:24:00 - [199] When I'm out in lowsec ratting, I have to be careful. I have to pick a system that is relatively underpopulated, I have to keep my scanner open and check for local to see if there are any potential pirates in the vicinity. I need to be in a ship small enough to warp out when necessary, and I need to stay roughly aligned. Excuse me if I don't feel sorry for people making 3x as much in 0.0 who only have to take precautions like that 1/10 of the time. Someone sitting AFK in your ratting system? Change system or check your scanner periodically for a ship on scan. Maybe consider doing cosmic anomalies rather than ratting so it's harder to find you. Of course there is a problem...the problem being that you even know they're there when they're sitting cloaked in the system.
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2008.10.24 03:41:00 - [200] Cloaking is fine. I have had to do recon/intel many times where I am in a system (or multiple sytems) for hours. With a detectable cloak I would die. I 'gueeeess' I would be fine with a system where you have to reactive after an hour or so, but I would be strongly against anything that could detect a cloaking ship. I would threaten to whine, but CCP seems to enjoy the tears of whiners.

lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:40:00 - [201] Originally by: Doc Iridium I've written off 0.0 PVP in EVE due to the fact that I have no interest in blobbing, gatecamping, or testing my patience against an empty chair, which is about all the 0.0 PVP that EVE has to offer me. If that is all you found then you should switch alliance or get a pair of glasses, there's a lot of that in 0.0 but plenty of other stuff as well and removing or destroying options others may enjoy just because they are not appealing to your choice of game play is wrong.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:13:00 - [202] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Doc Iridium I've written off 0.0 PVP in EVE due to the fact that I have no interest in blobbing, gatecamping, or testing my patience against an empty chair, which is about all the 0.0 PVP that EVE has to offer me. If that is all you found then you should switch alliance or get a pair of glasses, there's a lot of that in 0.0 but plenty of other stuff as well and removing or destroying options others may enjoy just because they are not appealing to your choice of game play is wrong. How are people enjoying something, when they aren't even playing the game? Some sort of meta-meta gaming? People have fun thinking about the fun they might be having if that were actually at their keyboard? Oh, I'm sorry, do you mean that AFK people enjoy the fact that they can simultaneously do nothing at all, and infuriate people who actually DO want to compete in a PVP game? Sorry, I don't buy it. AFK cloakers cannot have fun playing EVE while they are AFK because they are AFK. All they can do is degrade the playing enjoyment of players that are actually at-keyboard. Again, there are no meaningful gameplay reasons for continuing to allow AFK cloaking. If there are hypothetical people out there who do get enjoyment from _not_ playing a game, just imagine how much _more_ fun they could have by not subscribing at all!
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:24:00 - [203] Originally by: Doc Iridium Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Doc Iridium I've written off 0.0 PVP in EVE due to the fact that I have no interest in blobbing, gatecamping, or testing my patience against an empty chair, which is about all the 0.0 PVP that EVE has to offer me. If that is all you found then you should switch alliance or get a pair of glasses, there's a lot of that in 0.0 but plenty of other stuff as well and removing or destroying options others may enjoy just because they are not appealing to your choice of game play is wrong. How are people enjoying something, when they aren't even playing the game? Some sort of meta-meta gaming? People have fun thinking about the fun they might be having if that were actually at their keyboard? Oh, I'm sorry, do you mean that AFK people enjoy the fact that they can simultaneously do nothing at all, and infuriate people who actually DO want to compete in a PVP game? Sorry, I don't buy it. AFK cloakers cannot have fun playing EVE while they are AFK because they are AFK. All they can do is degrade the playing enjoyment of players that are actually at-keyboard. Again, there are no meaningful gameplay reasons for continuing to allow AFK cloaking. If there are hypothetical people out there who do get enjoyment from _not_ playing a game, just imagine how much _more_ fun they could have by not subscribing at all! Allowing probes to find cloaks or anything that makes cloaking not work effects not just afk cloaking but active cloaking as well and the guys who are fully afk cannot hurt you at all so the discussion is moot and pointless. Get in a gang and afk or not cloakers cannot harm you.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:40:00 - [204] Originally by: lecrotta Allowing probes to find cloaks or anything that makes cloaking not work effects not just afk cloaking but active cloaking as well and the guys who are fully afk cannot hurt you at all so the discussion is moot and pointless. Get in a gang and afk or not cloakers cannot harm you. I enjoy cloaking. I am a covert ops 5 pilot. I have advocated for changes in how cloaking works, in the past, but I no longer do. At worst, cloaking needs some very minor tweaking. What needs fixing is the fact that AFK players are allowed to impact active players in a PVP environment. I couldn't give a rats arse what some red is doing in system, provided that I know they are at their keyboard, and that at some level I am in competition with them. By allowing players to have a permanent AFK invulnerability button, CCP makes it possible for players to turn PVP into a contest more about boring the opponent to death than outsmarting or outwaiting them and killing them. I'm sorry that people out there who park their AFK toons in systems for 20 hours a day to set themselves up for suprise attacks might feel that they have some right to gain from their _not_ playing the game, but I strongly believe that in a PVP game, players should test their skills and determination against other players. If you want to play, than play.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.10.24 15:24:00 - [205] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/10/2008 15:26:37 Originally by: Doc Iridium I enjoy cloaking. I am a covert ops 5 pilot. I have advocated for changes in how cloaking works, in the past, but I no longer do. At worst, cloaking needs some very minor tweaking. What needs fixing is the fact that AFK players are allowed to impact active players in a PVP environment. If they are or not afk you should be prepared and in a gang anyway as it saves time if roaming ganbgs enter your space, so you get a two for one, you have a faster response time to hostile gangs and you can kill non afk cloakers, afk cloakers are irrelevant. Originally by: Doc Iridium By allowing players to have a permanent AFK invulnerability button, CCP makes it possible for players to turn PVP into a contest more about boring the opponent to death than outsmarting or outwaiting them and killing them. While they are cloaked afk or not they are invulnerable to you and you are invulnerable to them.
Doc Iridium Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.10.24 15:46:00 - [206] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 24/10/2008 15:26:37 Originally by: Doc Iridium I enjoy cloaking. I am a covert ops 5 pilot. I have advocated for changes in how cloaking works, in the past, but I no longer do. At worst, cloaking needs some very minor tweaking. What needs fixing is the fact that AFK players are allowed to impact active players in a PVP environment. If they are or not afk you should be prepared and in a gang anyway as it saves time if roaming ganbgs enter your space, so you get a two for one, you have a faster response time to hostile gangs and you can kill non afk cloakers, afk cloakers are irrelevant. Originally by: Doc Iridium By allowing players to have a permanent AFK invulnerability button, CCP makes it possible for players to turn PVP into a contest more about boring the opponent to death than outsmarting or outwaiting them and killing them. While they are cloaked afk or not they are invulnerable to you and you are invulnerable to them. It is one thing to be prepared. It is another thing entirely to have to be on edge the entire time you are playing because you do not know if <x> cloaked red is active or not. Meaningless concepts like "you don't need to worry about them if they are AFK" are blather. If it's red, and it's in your space, it needs to be considered a threat or someone's going to get ganked. Period. Any other interpretation of the proper reaction to reds in a system with you either indicates real ignorance or feigned ignorance. If you spend long enough on edge, waiting on that red's possible actions, you lose that edge. You get lax. You get bored. All of these things work to the benefit of a cloaked opponent that isn't playing the game at all. If you do not believe that boredom and lack of attention are valid weaknesses, you really need to think again.
45thtiger 0109	Posted - 2008.10.24 17:26:00 - [207] Quote: Cloaking currently is great for griefers. There should be a limit on the time duration. Use current game mechanics to limit the time cap use or something. I can see a cloak duration of say a hour or two but unlimited cloaking is dumb and only usefull to griefers when its for that long of a duration. There should be a counter skill perhaps let skilled probers at least have a chance at finding a cloaked ship. Either a counter skill or a limit for the duration/frequency of cloak I feel is needed Man is this guy for real if not find another game that you can complain about. I wish peole who winge about aspects of the game should grow up and let people who enjoy the game alone. Another example of a carebear who wants CCP to nurf another module because he / she cannot catch a cloaker. Grow up people and let CCP do their stuff.
Blackend Sky Minmatar The Paratwa FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.10.24 17:53:00 - [208] Cloaking out of hand?No way,make everyone in EVE fit a cloak so we can`t find each other
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.10.24 21:11:00 - [209] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 16/10/2008 22:06:05 Cloaked guy in system = one guy, in a tech2 cruiser, which can easily be ganked for the 5 guys in local who's he's frightening. the worst he can do is watch you and grab you just as a gang is one or two jumps out, and in that case, you'll have seen them coming in your intel channels and have ran away (that's if you were paying attention, or are smart enough to have scouts posted about watching for enemy movements (after all, he took the time to sit in system scouting yous, so you can take the time to have scouts watching for his friends)). He's not gunna AFK a lone guy (afkers camp station systems, and only idiots rat in station systems (higher than average local count; attracts roaming gangs and harder to see people enter local)), because you can just use another system, and if he follows HE'S NOT ****ING AFK IS HE? Seriously, it's a cloaked cruiser, grow some balls, set a trap for him, get your mates ready to warp to you and start ratting in some belts and gank the bastard. jesus you guys are weak. True that. What's worse is when people are reluctant to leave a station system with two other station systems owned by the same alliance and they're both two jumps away and all behind one entry point system so that anyone can see anything coming from a mile away.
Lithia Tsanov	Posted - 2008.10.27 04:52:00 - [210] These threads always tickle me, even when eloquently presented. The argument can be summarized as: PRS is an unfair game, because Rock 'always' beats Scissors. Scissors never has an opportunity to defeat Rock, no matter the experience or wealth of the player fielding Scissors, nor the quality of the Scissors used. Bring paper. Have a friendly rapier/huggin around in system. LT What is an OTAL?

chiisai sakana	Posted - 2008.10.27 12:41:00 - [211] The cloak is like the dude in scream who calls the victim saying "I see you". And it seems to have the same effect stupid people panic, and die.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.27 14:15:00 - [212] At the risk of further boring people, I'm going to repost what I posted in a similar thread. Apologies to those keeping track of all of these. Cloaking does not need any more drawbacks. It has plenty already. It does not need fuel, it does not need cap usage, it does not need heat. Cloaks are the counter to probes. First, ask yourself the question 'why do I care about this person who is cloaked?'. If your goal is to kill some mission-runner in your 0.0 space, work harder on your gatecamps. If your concern is a cloaked ship interrupting ratting or mining, then stop ratting and mining without escort. If you're wishing to interdict the intel abilities of your enemy, well then we're into tactics - how about showing them false intel which will make them rely less on their scouts? Secondly, the real core of the issue about cloaking is that it's an all-or-nothing endeavour. Probes find you unless you're cloaked. End of story. So, what could be reasonably entertained is a proper rebalance to both probing and cloaking such that probes don't find you in seconds, cloaks don't render you totally immune to probes, but rather we have a continuum of modules and skills. For example, a new skill Signature Stealthing or somesuch - cloaks work just the way they do now, but depending on your level in the above skill, you may or may not be detectable to someone who has trained another new skill Recon Probing, which determines their ability to analyse probe data and penetrate cloaks. After that, it's just balancing to determine who has the favourable outcome and precisely how detection is fashioned - could be chance-based, could be a linear scale, etc. I'd personally want it such that if I've fitted T2 cloak of invisibility improved plus (remember I'm proposing more new cloaks and perhaps even probes, beyond the two we have now) and trained Stealthing to 5, I should be just as impossible to find now except to a dedicated hunter who has equally trained Recon Probing to 5, fitted T2 gear etc. You could even up the ante by giving the ships intended for recon work a bonus to stealth, and give some ship, perhaps even the recon ships themselves, a bonus to probing cloaked ships. This would give us dedicated subs & sub-hunters, and a more suitable range of options for both sides to play with. Given the chance, I'd probably take the entire thing further and have scanners as well as probes and a proper intel gathering system instead of 'look at local, maybe drop a probe or two', but that's me. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Enihcam Xes	Posted - 2008.10.27 16:57:00 - [213] Just to cast my vote, AFK cloaked ships affect you none if there is no local. I have heard there are changes planned to local in 0.0.
asp viper	Posted - 2008.10.27 18:23:00 - [214] I sold recently cloaks in Jita. DAMN, they sold out so fast! No doubts, cloaks are very popular. As aways I read topics like this with a smile. I recognize some alts from pvp players arguing for the 24 h-afk cloak (Burn Eden heheh, hello ). It is like suicide gankers arguing for suicide ganking and how fair it is for both sides. I know, some ratters, who have trouble with recon/cloaker gangs. They argue against it. They have no idea, how difficult it is to kill a proper tanked and fitted BS with a recon solo. It is not the game mechanics itself. We have in both directions (pvp and pve) very experienced players, who (ab)use cloaks to make themselves almost invulnerable. - recon cloaker gangs. 1 recon is no real problem, because it has not enough dps. In that case the game mechanics works as intended. But a group of 10-20 dedicated cloakers, who exercise afk-cloaking and login-traps, is indeed able to grief away a whole alliance with players, who do not have the right equipment and dedication to hunt down these cloakers. In this case the defender has to make even more efforts than the offender. - the pve opposite are the single farmer ravens with cloak in 0.0 systems. It is almost impossible to catch them. After you jump or log in a system with 1 of them, you have only a few seconds to scan and tackle him, before he cloaks. If you stay longer, he simply logs out and maybe logs in somewhere else with another char... So it is not only the cloaking. It is the destructive game play of certain players, which is at least boring and sometimes griefing other players. Players, who strictly avoid any risk and abuse cloaking to do so. My tip for ratters to avoid this, is - avoid the cloaker gangs. You can only conter this with the opposite. Get a high sec mission runner alt and log out, if you meet a cloaker gang. Avoid to be depend on ratting and mining in 0.0 in a certain system. Ninja ratting is the opposite way. Put a cloak, a smart bomb or Neut on your raven. Create an alt for scouting and you need another char, if you can not log in in your ratting system in 0.0, because it is under siege and you are outnumbered. Ratting in 0.0 belts is only more efficient than missions, if you do it alone (and have good spawns). I do not know a solution to nerve these destructive ways of using a cloak, without nerfing to the positive ways of using a cloak. I only know, how to make destructive offenders unsuccessful. Lets talk about positive ways to use a cloak. A cloak on a hauler or (super-)capital is a nice thing to have, if you meet an enemy blob. If you make a complex, put a lot of work into scanning and killing the NPCs and a hostile gang comes, it is also nice to have a cloak. So you can wait them out. I know, there are complex farmers. They abuse the cloak to sit into the complex to make it despawn, when they want. This is really bad game mechanics, but it is not the cloak, it is the bad despawn mechanicsm of complexes and their destructive game play.
Fresky Smooovh The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.02 11:58:00 - [215] cloak is not the problem it is no viable counter to afk-cloakers, cloaking as a defense or offense tool is fine. Afk cloaking and not being able to find that idiot is stupid.
Shann Wu	Posted - 2008.11.02 12:23:00 - [216] TL:DR, read it before elsewhere anyway. Cloaking is not the problem. The mechanic is fine. The problem is your omniscient Local which tells you who is in system whether you can see them or not. That being said, having a cloak-disruptor module with a short range (say, 20km?) would be interesting. Something similar to a smart bomb, but deals no damage, and counts as an agressive act...
Odessima Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.11.02 12:36:00 - [217] Edited by: Odessima on 02/11/2008 12:38:14 afk cloakers, the boogey man, monsters arent these all Urban Myths and really cant hurt you. Seriously are you scared of your own shadow as well. There is a time duration atm its called downtime. Probers should not be able to find cloaked ships ( aside from the options in game already), not every other skill in Eve has a counter.
Fresky Smooovh The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.03 07:51:00 - [218] There is a time duration atm its called downtime --- funny guy.


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