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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:33:00 -
[541] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you agree, then, that price is not a factor in balance. Good. You're quite weird for tanking me for saying you were as wrong as you have always been. When CCP changed the prices for T2 ships did this certainly have an effect on the balance, because the prices for the T1 ships were not changed nor did none of the ships' abilities change. It just was not a question. |
Ibn Taymiyyah
Treasures Collectors Northern Associates.
5
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:34:00 -
[542] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Mate, the hulk is going for 300mil. both the impel and the mastodon are 100mil cheaper. Anyway, a hulk does not die to 2 dessies when maxed out for something not tank? When maxed out for yield and then tanked, it will have just over 15k EHP. Those two dessies will have a hard time chewing through that in 10s. The rule of the game was a ship in the 200/300M region, which the Impel and Mastodon fit into.
True. But I think you get my point, which is moot either way, but couldn't resist in putting it out ;)
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:41:00 -
[543] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
LOL Tippia, the thread is here, Go find it if you are so concerned. It's simpler for your ego to just deny it instead of go find it. You've ignored it before, you're ignoring it now, you will ignore it again.
As I said, you're ego will find whatever justification it needs. You choose to prove the point for me, deal with it. And you're not trying to help anyone but your self, you only wish to speak.
Keep up with your refrain about how I won't provide you with the argument you ignored. Please continue to allow me to advertise the fact that you ignore arguments that you don't like.
See ya soon, fish on a hook. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
297
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:42:00 -
[544] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Actually what I expect them to do is fit tanks and use their scanners.
We allready prove decent buffer tank fit is imposible. And it is allready mentioned, that scanner is useless in high as you can't allways jump out as soon as some neutral enter the system. And we allready prove, that a decent gank can kill ANY Hulk equal of fitting in less then 10 seconds (Hulk alligne time 17.4 seconds!!!!!!!). So who do you try to impress with your lies?
Dumbass.
A decent buffer tank is impossible - if you have the brainpower of a tuna fish.
Surviving a gank is a numbers game. Buff your stats and you are vulnerable only to determined, coordinated gank squads. (not as many out there as you think). Be an idiot and fail to tank, and you are killed by randoms in a single Catalyst.
Based on your poor grammar and weak reasoning skills, my guess is that you fall into the latter category. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6019
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:45:00 -
[545] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:LOL Tippia, the thread is here GǪand yet you find it completely impossible to link, copy-paste, refer to, or otherwise provide any specific argument. Why is that?
It should be soooooo easy for you, since, obviously, you know where it is and since it's apparently readily available to us all. And yet you can't. Very strange. It's almost as if it's actually really, really difficult and as if it doesn't actually exist after allGǪ hmmm.
Quote:Keep up with your refrain about how I won't provide you with the argument you ignored. Since you keep being unable to provide it, in spite of how ridiculously simple it should be to do so, I think I will.
So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:51:00 -
[546] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:The problem is with bleaters like this for every inch they get they WAIL louder for the mile that they actually want.
He wants to mine AFK risk-free.
Not even single-player games let you do that do they? Dude, I can't mine at all (except Arbitrator with T1 mining drones). With none of my chars. I'm just not such an ******* to not see the fail in balance and I don't try to defend this fail like you. Do I want to PvP? Sure, I do it every day! Do I need such an eazy target for my e-peen? No! Does it mean I just star "fair fights"? For sure not *g*. Enter the space of my ally and you are dead. Doesn't matter if you fly a shuttle or multi billion mothership. BUT as I like EVE I know this game can just survive when all professions are balanced. Not just the one I prefare. Without miners (and highsec miners too) I can't buy ships or equip as I have sero interest in mining+production. With the lose of drone regions I allready know the price will rise like crazy. If Hulkgeddon starts and the ore from all this highsec miners is missing too I allready know T1 stuff will become crazy expensive. And don't let's forget: 90% of all AFK highsec miners are ALTS FROM 00/low guys!! What you are actually on-record as saying is that 400M in hulls should be required for 400M in hull. That's 200 fitted destroyers, if not more. Do you stand by your statement or retract it? I am still waiting.
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:51:00 -
[547] - Quote
Tippia wrote:and yet you find it completely impossible to link, copy-paste, refer to, or otherwise provide any specific argument. Why is that?
It should be soooooo easy for you, since, obviously, you know where it is and since it's apparently readily available to us all. And yet you can't. Very strange.
Nope, I can find it quite easily. See, the difference, my ego is not invested in the debate, yours is. So I will keep poking you and letting you come back for more. And each time I will point out you ignore arguments you do not like.
Want some salt on that worm lil fish?
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Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:54:00 -
[548] - Quote
Tippia wrote:If the T2 ships' abilities did not change, nor did the T1 ships' abilities change then guess what GÇö the balance didn't change. The balance did certainly change. People wanted T2 ships to be cheaper so they can fly them more often. It shifted the balance towards T2 ships and away from T1 ships. |
Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
88
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:55:00 -
[549] - Quote
You don't even need a super tank. Fit a 15-20k ehp hulk and mine beside the guy that fits his hulk with a civilian shield booster. Once he gets ganked, it's time to move. Post with your monkey. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6019
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:55:00 -
[550] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Nope, I can find it quite easily. Unlikely, since you are so utterly unable to refer to it. SooooGǪ
GǪyou can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? Every time I repeat it, it becomes more and more obvious that you have nothing, until you do what I want and provide it. Or until you do what I want and admit that you're just making it up. Either way, you're doing what I want. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
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Posted - 2012.04.12 00:57:00 -
[551] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:If the T2 ships' abilities did not change, nor did the T1 ships' abilities change then guess what GÇö the balance didn't change. The balance did certainly change. People wanted T2 ships to be cheaper so they can fly them more often. It shifted the balance towards T2 ships and away from T1 ships. Balance is not just about the attributes of the ships within a ship class, but it is about all ships. Destroyer changed Tier 3 BC intrudocued weapon systems buffed
Tech 2 mining ships stay the same since they are introduced. Balance not changed? You are blind Tippia Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:02:00 -
[552] - Quote
Tippia wrote: you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
ROFL, too late to try and turn any tables fish. Your tendency to ignore arguments has not been noticed by me alone. Sorry, you have a reputation. Up till now I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but not today.
Keep on squirming to save your ego. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:02:00 -
[553] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: If you mine pre-aligned (LIKE I SAID) then your align time is zero, right? Then exactly what excuse besides "AFK" do you have if you just do it right?
ROFL, so stupid.
Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends.
Just stupid.
NO! Alligne time is not sero, not even with your false math. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Dilaro thagriin
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
35
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:03:00 -
[554] - Quote
Roime wrote: There are no suicide gankers outside hisec
well.. DUH!!!
that's kind of the point of low / null ... right? no suicide ganking... it's only SUICIDE if CONCORD will show up. should you need it spelled out better, they don't show up outside of highsec. so the hulks get popped just as often, if not more often, and those doing the popping don't even lose their destroyers.
seems to me that the hulk is not balanced against it's cost... that said, most t2 ships aren't... especially compared to some of their faction counterparts. |
Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:06:00 -
[555] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that, since nothing changed about the ships, the balance didn't change. Just because ships are used more or less from one moment to the next doesn't mean the balance is different GÇö it just means people are flying different ships. Preferences changed, that is all.
The fallacy you're committing here is GÇ£affirming the consequentGÇ¥ GÇö look it up.
So no, price is still not a factor in balance. How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance.
Why are we even discussing this? This should be basic stuff for you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6020
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:09:00 -
[556] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Destroyer changed Tier 3 BC intrudocued weapon systems buffed
Tech 2 mining ships stay the same since they are introduced. Balance not changed? You are blind Tippia We're talking about Dominion, when moon goo requirements changed GÇö affecting the prices of T2 ships and modules GÇö but where no changes were made to any T1 or T2 ships (okGǪ the cap/supercap revamp went though, but that's slightly beyond the scope of the ships we're disussing).
Whitehound is asserting that, by changing those T2 prices, CCP wanted to GÇö and indeed did GÇö adjust the balance between ships and modules, even though nothing about those ships and modules was modified and even though they were balanced against each other in exactly the same way as before Dominion.
So none of the changes you mentioned apply to the patch we're discussing.
Whitehound wrote:How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance. Again, cause Gëá effect. No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. It's the other way around: the balance affects how many fly the ships.
Price is a different factor that affects how many fly the ships. Price is independent from balance GÇö just because both affect the same dependent variable doesn't mean they depend on each other.
So no, price is not a factor in balance.
Adunh Slavy wrote:[complete lack of argument] So you still can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:12:00 -
[557] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. You heard it here for folks.
COST IS IRRELEVANT TO SHIP EFFECTIVENESS
Do you ever think, or does your **** posting diarrhea work automatically? |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:16:00 -
[558] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. Tengu -> other T3. Drake -> other BC. True for PvE and PvP.
Numbers prove balance.
Hulk is an exception as (allready mentioned) there is just ONE high end mining ship. Not 4 (T3) or 12 (BS) different.
So as dedicated miner ... you don't have the luxury of chosing what you fly. You MUST fly the Hulk. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
119
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:18:00 -
[559] - Quote
I haven't had a chance to test it but the only thing I can come up with for a Hulk is ECM drones. If it works, I'd like to see CCP double the drone bay of the Barge lines so they can run Medium ECM drones and still have bay for 5 small combat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:18:00 -
[560] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance.
Why are we even discussing this? This should be basic stuff for you.
Tippia can't admit this basic idea that ship cost in materials and SP is a form of balance, because that would throw his/her/its entire argument off kilter. It will simply ignore and equivocate its way out of having to adress this.
Of course it will also cite that hulks are popular ships, ignoring the long standing SP ease of going from a covetor to a hulk, while at the same time turning around and saying player preference, (determined by cost, ability and SP) isn't a factor. |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:19:00 -
[561] - Quote
Tippia wrote: So you still can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Back for more, worm breath? Why don't you ignore some more arguments as you are so well known for doing. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:20:00 -
[562] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: If you mine pre-aligned (LIKE I SAID) then your align time is zero, right? Then exactly what excuse besides "AFK" do you have if you just do it right?
ROFL, so stupid. Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends. Just stupid. NO! Alligne time is not sero, not even with your false math.
Plus there's not one suicide ganker who does not have scram. Warp to cloak "reference" ship, warp scramble and then you can have all the aligment you want that if you were not looking in those 3 seconds before you get locked, you are melted. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
30
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Posted - 2012.04.12 01:28:00 -
[563] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Again, cause Gëá effect. No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. It's the other way around: the balance affects how many fly the ships.
Price is a different factor that affects how many fly the ships. Price is independent from balance GÇö just because both affect the same dependent variable doesn't mean they depend on each other.
So no, price is not a factor in balance. Yes, the numbers of players flying a ship or a ship class is very important for determining the balance. Ships do get changed when they are flown too often. CCP does not change a ship only because a few attributes do not work out. It has not stopped players from flying these ships either. Only when too many players choose one ship or a ship class over another do you have an imbalance.
PS: I am going to bed now. May someone else teach Tippia the world. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:36:00 -
[564] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends. No, you won't be.
You'll be moving at 65m/s. You keep your lasers on target over a ~30km trajectory (a bit less, unless we're talking about a very small asteroid or a very magical Hulk). At that speed, you can stay on target for ~450 seconds GÇö 7-+ minutes. That's enough for 2-+ cycles, or about 11k m-¦ worth of ore. With command support, you get even more out of those 30km, and you might even get more than 30km to get more out ofGǪ that's a lot of GÇ£more.GÇ¥
Quote:Numbers prove balance. Actually, most would argue that numbers prove imbalance. But that's besides the point: numbers do not determine balance GÇö they are not a factor in how two ships are balanced against each other. Instead, it's the opposite: the balance between two ships will influence which of the two you'll see in larger numbers.
Same goes for price: price is not a factor in determining how two ships are balanced against each other. Instead, it's the opposite: the balance between two ships will influence what the ships' respective prices will be. You cannot adjust the balance of a ship by adjusting its price, because people will happily pay that price to get the advantage (or, conversely, they will ignore a lousy ship no matter how cheap).
Quote:Hulk is an exception as (allready mentioned) there is just ONE high end mining ship. Not 4 (T3) or 12 (BS) different. Funnily enough, this thread, and many of the threads it has spawned, contains claims to the opposite: that there are actually two high-end mining ships and that the Hulk isn't really the more worth-while of the twoGǪ
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia can't admit this basic idea that ship cost in materials and SP is a form of balance Congratulations on missing the point completely. You are wrong, as always. The argument is that you cannot balance a ship with price because it doesn't actually stop anyone from getting the ship GÇö see above. Price is not a factor in balance because it doesn't actually balance out anything. No matter how high you price something to GÇ£balanceGÇ¥ its superior stats, people will obtain the resources required and start using it, and now you have something that is inherently unbalanced wreaking havoc in the game.
By the way, you still haven't been able to provide any specific argument that I have ignored. It's safe to say, at this point, that this is because you have none. Case closed.
Whitehound wrote:Yes, the numbers of players flying a ship or a ship class is very important for determining the balance. Ships do get changed when they are flown too often. GǪand it's still not the numbers that determine the balance. The numbers are an effect of the balance, and CCP (or more commonly the players) look at those numbers to infer that something is or isn't balanced about the ships. The imbalance is with the ships themselves. No matter how the numbers look, the balance is determined by the ships and their stats. No matter how the numbers change, unless the stats change, the balance isn't altered. Likewise, price does not determine balance GÇö if anything, balance determines price. High price is then also an effect of balance, not the other way around: balance is a factor in price; price is not a factor in balance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:42:00 -
[565] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Congratulations on missing the point completely. You are wrong, as always. The argument is that you cannot balance a ship with price because it doesn't actually stop anyone from getting the ship GÇö see above. Price is not a factor in balance because it doesn't actually balance out anything. No matter how high you price something to GÇ£balanceGÇ¥ its superior stats, people will obtain the resources required and start using it, and now you have something that is inherently unbalanced wreaking havoc in the game.
You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness.
Nothing new here, same old tactics. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:45:00 -
[566] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness. GǪand you're still unable to point out what's being missed.
You have been asked to prove your nonsense. You have been unable to do so. So proof or shush, puppet. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:46:00 -
[567] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness. GǪand you're still unable to point out what's being missed. You have been asked to prove your nonsense. You have been unable to do so. So proof or shush, puppet.
ROFL - you are so blind. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:47:00 -
[568] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL - you are so blind. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:50:00 -
[569] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL - you are so blind. Prove it.
That the argument came around again and you slobered all over it with your standard refrains proves it, little fish. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
417
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:50:00 -
[570] - Quote
Yo guys keep arguing, and I'll just keep mining in my tanked hulk while you guys lose yours to a thrasher. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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