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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
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Posted - 2012.04.11 06:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
A hulk with a LSE would be a bit too much. A medium shield extender would be more balanced. You have to remember b Hulks can easily get over 80% to all resists. A LSE on a hulk would easily get it close to BS ehp. As it is now a properly fit hulk can get close to 40k ehp and that's pretty high |
Keno Skir
110
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Posted - 2012.04.11 06:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them (oil tankers) to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue
Think you'll find you're incorrect, 30 seconds of google says they have lenty of guns onboard and sometimes even mounted weapons.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
184
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Posted - 2012.04.11 06:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue
i c wat u did thar |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1207
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Posted - 2012.04.11 06:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:As it is now a properly fit hulk can get close to 40k ehp and that's pretty high
A hulk without three strip miners is not "properly fit". To fit an MSE on a hulk you need to use a MAPC, to fit a LSE requires removing strip miners.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
452
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Posted - 2012.04.11 07:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
So you need to downgrade "guns" in order to fit a better tank?
Sounds just like every other ship.
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
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Posted - 2012.04.11 07:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS.
But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig).
- bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks
And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space?
one word: STUPID! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
184
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Posted - 2012.04.11 07:46:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS. But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig). - bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space? one word: STUPID!
The Orca isn't actually a capital. It's an Industrial Command Ship. The Rorqual is the Capital Industrial. |
Severian Carnifex
163
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Posted - 2012.04.11 08:27:00 -
[68] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked.
^^ This!
Hulk is just pointless. 300mill ISK ship and pointless
And just dont get me started talking about the rest of the exumer line. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
526
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Posted - 2012.04.11 08:48:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
It's relevant to the buck for worth you get. An itty does the 1 task for 700k (depends on type), an hulk does 1 task for a bit more.
The best possible iteron costs 2M to do the task as best as possible. The corresponding best mining ship costs 308M right now to do the same 1 task. It's a bit of a different cost vs task done. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mystrak
Severasse Mining Independent Stars Allied Forces
3
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Posted - 2012.04.11 08:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS. But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig). - bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space? one word: STUPID! The Orca isn't actually a capital. It's an Industrial Command Ship. The Rorqual is the Capital Industrial.
No. The orca is under the capital ships section. I'm not Prencleeve Grothsmore. Are you? |
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Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section.
So, what?
Not all battleship sized modules can be fit on all frigs either. It takes role bonuses, like on stealth bombers or T3 battle-cruisers.
Some day a small capital ship may appear that will have role bonuses and be able to fit capital sized modules.
Orca is just not that ship.
Deal with it.
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Hroya
32
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
And they name it 'Hulk'
Of course you can tank a Hulk to some extent, just like a hauler with plates. But doing that you also gimp pretty much the reason why it is in the game. That then would make other ships far more viable to perform that role.
A plated hauler will still be a hauler but with way less capacity for a slighty more chance of survival. But it would still be a hauler and marked prime for the suicide. Rack a BS with expanders in the lows and you have about the same cargohold as the gimped hauler but with no exposure what so ever to it's intention.
A barge/exhumer allways had to go for max yield fit to make the mining worthwhile with the mineral prices over the years due to bots and what not. Now that the bots might be flagged as priority to deal with the prices are going up. Now you could argue that fitting a tank, ergo gimping yield, would become more viable. But atm it would just ensure you get the same income from mining now as you had with the lower mineral prices yet with a slighty better surviveabillity. So mineral prices would need to go up even more to effectively provide a better income and make tanking a sound option. Yet then you face a huge rise in ship prices, esp the hulk wich allready is patheticly expensive for such a ship, and in turn suiciding such ships with some more investment in gankships would remain the same as now.
The ships have to be looked at to provide yield plus survivabillty at a decent level. It would still be doable to suicide those ships but would also ensure that investment in both procuurment ships aswell as suicide vessels wouldnt get to a point that it is way to rediculous to be in the game.
You go your corridor but. |
Oxylan
1 Caldaryjski Pluton Uderzeniowy
9
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
This whole kamikaze game mechanic force miners to have at last one alt in logistic or force mienrs to play in group, if you want solo mining is your chose... but dont be mad if you lose ship, btw hulks are to expensive.
CCP should decerace material needs for productions and reduce cost to 50-70mil max because they just mining barge, espetialy while two destroyers for 4mil isk can destroy ship worth 210mil in less than 6 second, this is wired. If it bleed we can kill it. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
26
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?
Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy.
So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable. |
Sevena Black
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
Boosting HP has no effect on suicide ganking. You can gank ANYTHING.
The number of ships (ISK investment) required will increase. Thats about it.
The most effective method to prevent suicide ganking in H-sec is mining in a "quiet" system and watching directional. When 6 new guys jump in and your scanner shows they're catalysts etc, WARP
Ofcourse being aligned at 5 m/s helps
That being said, I've lost 3 hulks to gankers. So following my own advice was too complicated for me :)
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Severian Carnifex
163
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:31:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy.So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable.
I looked at the market few days ago and Hulk was around 300mill ISK |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so this is mega hulk maxed skills with a tengu running links with heat on give you just over 100k ehp its stupid expensive to even think about it but i guess it can be done...
[Hulk, New Setup 1] Damage Control II True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Medium Shield Extender II
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Wow, a 3 Billion ISK hulk that can mine 2m ISK an hour. Seems worth it.
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:45:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:Hulk....hmmm.....HEY OP your an IDIOT!
Have you taken the time to google the hulk tto fit against ganking? NO!
Thats what i thought. not going to give ya the answer going to mke you work but you can fit a hulk not all faction tank gear but able to have over 35k EHP with a nice shield resists but you would cry cause you could not fit the T2 strippers....still you cry when your hulk pops.
Stopped reading at "your an IDIOT!"
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
294
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Haha. Miners just never stop complaining and crying. They aren't even getting CCPwnd like Incursion runners and gankers - they just crying because they aren't getting the buffs they want.
Let me clue you in.
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
I don't think you can honestly say that Hulks are underutilized - its one of the most commonly flown ships in the game. It would be like CCP buffing the Drakes' resists because 'so many of them die'.
The problem isn't with the ship - its with the miners themselves. Like others said, it can fit 3x Strips and sport 33K EHP, and with Orca support almost 40K.
If you gave it another low slot - then watch as the vast majority of miners use it for Cargo-Expanders and make their ships even EASIER to kill. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1207
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
Roime wrote:So you need to downgrade "guns" in order to fit a better tank?
Sounds just like every other ship.
What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role? Even Caldari missile boats have sufficient CPU and PG to mount enough tank to do the job without sacrificing high slots.
As has been said in this thread already: a miner is actually better off flying a Covetor than a Hulk, because the Covetor can be flown with a maximum yield fitting, platinum insurance, and the inevitable loss will be more than compensated for by the difference in income between that Covetor and the max-tanked Hulk it replaced.
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Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
Correct.
Quote: I don't think you can honestly say that Hulks are underutilized - its one of the most commonly flown ships in the game.
As a matter of fact, when people start to fly only one ship and fit, which obsoletes all other ships and fits (cf. ECM nerf, nano nerf, NOS nerf, the second nano nerf, the second ECM nerf, supercap nerf), then CCP, well, you guessed it, nerfs it.
Hulk is up for a nerf, methinks.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:59:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy. So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable. GǪand cost, as always, is not a balancing factor. Again: both are non-combat industrial ships. The hulk is a whole lot more durable than its cousins if you choose to actually tank it (but no-one does, because god forbid that you reduce your yield even a tiny bit to improve on your safety).
The Hulk can fulfil its role just fine while still maintaining a proper tank.
Mara Rinn wrote:What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role? Even Caldari missile boats have sufficient CPU and PG to mount enough tank to do the job without sacrificing high slots. All of them, pretty much. Notice his wording, and then take a look at things like target painters, tracking computers, tracking enhancers, weapon upgradesGǪ
If you want to max out the tank on any ship, your GÇ£gunGÇ¥ part will suffer for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
ugh zug
20
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Posted - 2012.04.11 09:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
to ccp. while you envision mining vessels to be like oil rigs, you don't take into consideration that oil rigs are not attacked by combat vessels or kamikazed by zeros inrl.
Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it.
it wont be enough to save you from a gank but it will make them work for it. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor.
In what way is a non-combat ship meant for base industry use with 100k+ EHP balanced? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
120
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:11:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote:Yeah, Hulk is a T2 BC sized ship with a sub-cruiser tank. Fricken pathetic and should be addressed.
I do not advocate making Exhumers with super-tanks but at least something respectable for their size, cost and tech level.
Everything is ballance,
Less Tank - More DPS More Speed - Less tank More mining yield - Less ????
So CCP went with Less tank.
You know, if you went with less yield... you could probably get more tank... at least enough to save you from a thrasher any how.
[Hulk, terrible fit to prove a point] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
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Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
99
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor. In what way is a capital combat ship meant for base gank use with 100m+ EHP balanced?
I don't mind hulk having a weak tank but when you have to baby sit your alt in null not because of players but because of belt rats something is wrong.
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TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
120
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:23:00 -
[87] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Tippia wrote:ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor. In what way is a capital combat ship meant for base gank use with 100m+ EHP balanced? I don't mind hulk having a weak tank but when you have to baby sit your alt in null not because of players but because of belt rats something is wrong.
I'd take that as "working as intended" tbh.
If you want to avoid baby sitting, buy some stupidly price x-type shield booster. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Nice strawman. So you agree, then that the hulk is fine since you have to resort to fallacies like this to maintain something that might be mistaken for an argument. Goodie.
Oh, and people using the GÇ£safe against null ratsGÇ¥ fits in highsec, rather than a fit that would protect them against highsec dangers, is one of the primary reasons hulk ganking caught on, so not only can it be done GÇö it's the genesis. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
0
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Posted - 2012.04.11 10:56:00 -
[89] - Quote
Agree with OP, hulk can be fitted for reasonable tank, but then it is useless for mining. It can mine well, but then it won't be able to tank a destroyer. Of course you may spend 700m on modules, but when you but so much money into the ship you generally get an extra edge to be used somewhere. The fitting above is a great example. Expensive and useless, since the mining yield sucks. It is a common misconception about miners, being a miner isn't about having a strip miner, it is all about modules and implants. You increase your yield = you loose your high, low, some med slots and rigs. With the rest, there is no reliable way to tank. I'm ok with that, as long as the ship has lower material costs. Also, i would like to see some boost to structural HP, which i consider a reasonabe way to express how sluggish the vessel but still it shows somehow. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
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Posted - 2012.04.11 11:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
Correct. WRONG
If the Abaddon would be bad you could still chose Geddon or Apoc. If all 3 would be bad you can switch to Minmatar, Caldari or Galente Battleships.
Now ... there is ONE high end mining ship. The Hulk. You can NOT simply switch to an other ship like combat pilots can.
If there is just ONE ... you use it even if it has real and hardcore problems as there are no alternatives.
It's like the VW Beatle after WW2 or Trabant from DDR. If there is no alternative people use it even if this cars have ******* bad breaks, ~34 PS only, no airbags, no radio or whatever. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
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