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Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:53:00 - [751] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: leona starfire For people who still have loans outstanding with e-bank I am willing with my main Nightjester to transfer up to 10B isk to your account once i have received 80% of the value of your loan in assets. You can then repay e-bank get back your assets from e-bank and instantly save yourself 20%. I will then allow you to pay back your loan with no interest over the following 12 months. Originally by: Leneerra Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. Get of your freaking high horse Ray. You say you wish the market to take care of liquidating accounts but your employees scoff at the opportunities that exist and insult those who even try to get an offer together. You provide absolutely no security in when, nor on how much we can get out of our account, thus completely destroying whatever value is left null in them. You joke and make fun of the little securities you did offer in the past. You state quite clearly there will be no liquidation. And when someone actually manages to finds a marketable option to liquidate their isk you threaten them. So I can either wait (indefenetely?) for my isk to be returned, or wait for some kind of ebank approved option to sell MY ebank isk to some ebank approved party? A bank needs trust. Without it, it will not work. You are quite effectively destroying whatever tiny piece of trust remained. Without trust in the opportunity to withdraw isk there is no isk. Without a time limit on your recovery plans my ebank isk are worthless. Calculating 3% a month my balance is worth only 3.1b at this time. Make it 2 years and it is worth only 2.2B at this time. And who even knows if they will be playing eve in 2 years time. And frankly, ebank is not an investment that warrants such a low %. Perhaps 5% is more realistic, making my deposit (assuming a likely withdrawal option in 1 year) worth only 2.4B.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:54:00 - [752] At this point I've come to the conclusion that you're all just getting trolled. They have you're money, and will keep the site open, so you can see your balances, mostly just to laugh at you.
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:00:00 - [753] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Dzil Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Do any of them really believe they'll get any collateral back if they repay? At this point, if I had a collateralized loan, I'd seriously start thinking of defaulting. Without third party confirmation, I would assume the collateral has been mostly lost, or will be tied up like deposit accounts. This goes doubly if the loan was collateralized at less than 100%. And I'm still waiting on a public list of defaulters. Maybe I missed it though. It could be entertaining at the very least.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:05:00 - [754] but, if they post defaulters then theyd have to add theirt own names, as they ceased paying intrest on the isk we loaned them. tricky path for them
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:17:00 - [755] Sorry to spoil the drama, but Ray is right on this point. If you have an Ebank loan secured by collateral, they would have to be crazy to let you pay off that loan with Ebank deposits bought from another customer at deflated prices. Those deposits are not worth anywhere near face value and will not be for the foreseeable future, if ever. If Ebank does let customers pay off loans with their own pre-frozen deposits, that is purely a courtesy on their part. The real problem is that you invested in an unregulated and uninsured bank and there is no body that has the authority to step in and take control of the assets and liquidate the business. In my opinion, the bank should be liquidated in which case depositors would eventually get 20-30% of their money back. But, the board of directors (as well as most of the customers) seem to be simple, optimistic folk, and they believe that the bank will eventually survive, supported mostly by absentee depositors. The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate.
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.09.14 18:33:00 - [756] After telling myself not to deposit into Ebank a while back im certainly feeling very pleased with myself that i didnt. Y'all got owned. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:35:00 - [757] Ray, You have stated you wanted to have the market take care of liquidating the ebank customers that wish it What steps are you planning to take to make that statement a reality? What timeframe are we looking at for such steps to be taken? What guarantees will ebank claim to provide to set a fair market value for current depossits? (things like timeframe until isk release, guaranteed conversion percetage for conversion of ebank isk into ccp isk. Which need to be set to allow any trade value over cosmoray's current 20% offering) Will eBank affiliates be forbidden from entering the trade in eBank isk?
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.09.14 20:15:00 - [758] Originally by: Claire Voyant The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate. QFT
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.14 20:34:00 - [759] Originally by: Claire Voyant The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate. Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other.
Landea Kimimi	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:10:00 - [760] Originally by: Ray McCormack Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. What Ray has indicated here is that he/EBank is looking for any reason not to repay people what they are owed. Such willingness to subjectively screw people indicates that few depositors, if any, will likely ever be repayed. So...all those who owe loans to EBank now have a reason not to repay EBank. After all, like EBank you need only a subjective reason to hold EBank in default. Forget your obligations everyone...EBank certainly has. Depositors, you're just being further duped: you have already lost your money....
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:34:00 - [761] Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 14/09/2009 21:34:02 Originally by: LaVista Vista In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. What gets me about this is it deliberately ignores the time value of money. When EBANK gets back to the value it was before it will have done nothing more than earn interest on the current money at a rate no better than the investors could do themselves. If anything, EBANK can be expected to perform worse than the individual investor who is working on a smaller scale and can get 2.5x there starting value faster than EBANK can possibly do. Because of that, if in one year even if EBANK has earned back all the lost ISK to this point the bank will have effectively forced most investors to take an effective loss on what they could have made if the had been given their 40%. The 1.2t EBANK has lost to this point is merely a sunk cost. The idea that EBANK is restoring the lost equity is a fallacy. Investors do not benefit from EBANK taking away their opportunities in the vain hope that the bank can save face. - Lexander Morinex
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:43:00 - [762] Originally by: Landea Kimimi So...all those who owe loans to EBank now have a reason not to repay EBank. After all, like EBank you need only a subjective reason to hold EBank in default. Forget your obligations everyone...EBank certainly has. Depositors, you're just being further duped: you have already lost your money.... I would certainly argue that those who own loans to EBANK are well within their rights at this point to insist they won't repay the loans for one to two years, and without interest. - Lexander Morinex
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:51:00 - [763] Lexander, I had prepared several quotes of things you've said in the past year but honestly it just isn't worth it. Please feel free to continue to give your opinion. <Amarr's signature>
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:56:00 - [764] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Lexander, I had prepared several quotes of things you've said in the past year but honestly it just isn't worth it. Please feel free to continue to give your opinion. My opinion is merely that EBANK investors would get a better deal after liquidation than EBANK is going to give them by keeping their money. In my view EBANK doesn't really even have the right to make that decision (whatever rights mean in this game). If EBANK has the right to say 'We will give you your money back when we decide' then any and all investors can do whatever they want with the money people loan them. I am noticing that something about the way I post really annoys people. Since that isn't really my intent when I write I am doing something wrong. - Lexander Morinex
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:58:00 - [765] Originally by: LaVista Vista Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other. Just in case anyone was going to be duped by this attempt at economic analysis: it makes no sense. Not as in "it's a bad argument", rather as in "it is nonsense". Just a heads up for all you TL;DRers out there who might think it is valid at a glance. If people really care, I'll elaborate. However, it'll probably be longer than the original post, and I'm just not in the mood
leona starfire LS Trading and Production Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.14 22:32:00 - [766] Edited by: leona starfire on 14/09/2009 22:32:28 Ray you have told us we cannot use isk within the bank to pay of other peoples loans. Am I ok to tranfer my isk to another account and sell the risk to someone else who is willing to wait for 1-5 years? Also would e-bank come to some agreement with IPO runners to get there isk out and allow trusted IPO's to pay interest for the access to the isk. I would be happy to pay say 1.5-3% interest for access to my isk.
Landea Kimimi	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:38:00 - [767] Originally by: leona starfire Edited by: leona starfire on 14/09/2009 22:32:28 Ray you have told us we cannot use isk within the bank to pay of other peoples loans. Am I ok to tranfer my isk to another account and sell the risk to someone else who is willing to wait for 1-5 years? Also would e-bank come to some agreement with IPO runners to get there isk out and allow trusted IPO's to pay interest for the access to the isk. I would be happy to pay say 1.5-3% interest for access to my isk. What you're asking them to do is quite reasonable - sort of like the CDOs of the real world. However, you're not taking into account the fact that EBank has no real intention of paying you back, thus the "collateralized" part doesn't really apply, and 1.5 - 3% isn't as good to them as the effective 100% interest you've already payed them.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:00:00 - [768] Every time I stumble upon this forum I get to read an A+ thread drowning in emo tears. It's exhilarating. So EBANK is a huge scam. Now thats lulzworthy all by itself but not only that: The people responsible (who would've to admit to being incompetent and naive if they're claiming not to be scammers) get to openly ridicule and debase the very people they're robbing. At the same time they do manage to string along a lot of these poor souls by pretending that the bank (speaking of which the BOD can't even know/prove it ever was one in the first place) - that turned out to be some kind of IPO you really didn't sign up for (and that has no interest) - really will be a bank 1 year from now. Well, maybe. Or 5 years. Patience is a virtue and after all you ***ty little whiners really deserve it for claiming the money you (supposedly) own. Also funny how no one but hexxx admits to any responsibility at all. (Unless he is part of all this...) I mean apparently LaVistaVista was one of the founders of the bank and I remember how he was downplaying ricdics theft and claiming that it wouldn't hurt EBANK too much(also I think he talked a lot about how secure everything was - quite a joke seeing you guys have admitted to total negligence in "housekeeping"). He also claims that he basically had no understanding/knowledge of the inner proceedings of the bank (or rather lack of) even after being warned by a former board member. I won't be the only person that thinks either he has misrepresented his involvement with the bank in many of his posts prior to this incident or he is trying to extricate himself from this hilarious mess. Because apparently he was only the janitor maintaining the website/sanitary facilities/pool among other stuff. Allright. At least thats my understanding of this rather awesome thread but surely someone will tell me how wrong I am in due time. Basically to all EBANK customers a few words of wisdom and commiseration cough: enjoy your BUKKAKE! -- Originally by:* Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
isevele	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:49:00 - [769] please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing?
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:07:00 - [770] Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? Crash and exotic dancers.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:23:00 - [771] Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? You are reading the balance sheet correctly. EBANK are in the midst of an audit, so the complete picture of EBANK's financial situation is not clear. This is changing all the time. The current asset position is worse than initial reports and is 736B (down from 800+B), and the losses is upto 1.27T
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:49:00 - [772] Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. <Amarr's signature>
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:55:00 - [773] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. Was down earlier, but it is currently showing fully updated as of September 15th.
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:57:00 - [774] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. Was down earlier, but it is currently showing fully updated as of September 15th. Well then it must not being showing the 1.2t in my wallet right now. <Amarr's signature>
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:57:00 - [775] Originally by: Myra2007 Basically to all EBANK customers a few words of wisdom and commiseration cough: enjoy your BUKKAKE! Hope you're happy... holds thumb and index finger real close together ... I came that close to spewing pop all over my laptop laughing at that one.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 03:08:00 - [776] Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 03:23:00 - [777] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:07:00 - [778] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it. Salaries, of course. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:15:00 - [779] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: LaVista Vista Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other. Just in case anyone was going to be duped by this attempt at economic analysis: it makes no sense. Not as in "it's a bad argument", rather as in "it is nonsense". Just a heads up for all you TL;DRers out there who might think it is valid at a glance. If people really care, I'll elaborate. However, it'll probably be longer than the original post, and I'm just not in the mood Wow! Your argument is great. My argument is fully valid. Short run(When variables stay the same) and long run(Change in variables, for instance a run on the bank as a result of us opening up again) are quite different scenarios. And they need to be dealt with in different wants.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:21:00 - [780] So, what are the variables?

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