Really and where would you get your ships if industrial characters werent mining the resources and manufacuring them for you? Or is it like your moms house where you wake up and your laundry is done presumably by the laundry fairy? You are utterly clueless.

EVE is all about industry, there wouldn't be any ships without it!

Sounds pretty stupid right?

. . .

EVE is all about PVP, what else would the ships be used for?

JUST. AS. STUPID.

On the subject of PvE, it could really do with some new missions. I normally only play missions for 7-10 days a year but they are so repetitive and boring.

How full time mission runners are not just insane, I have no idea.

Selling to the PvE guys who would loose ships or other miners both of who with no-pvp could easily go into the insane anoms of null and WH space freely.

So yes a market exists without PvPers.

PvPers do not exist in this game without miners and Traders.

Yeah, cos pve'ers lose enough ships to support themselves. . And what stops pvpers doing pve? an allergic reaction? A funny version of eve you live in.

If there is no pvp the anoms and plexes are worthless as there is no demand for loot (as the only stuff being lost is by noobs who don't understand the incredibly basic pve mechanics). They get lots of isk from bounties but as everything is incredibly cheap from lack of demand (as practically nothing is being lost) everything is basically free anyway. Eve turns into just another game where you start, grind to the top and quit in 6 months.

Wspace? The FIRST THING I DID on release day was take a fleet of 13 carebears so deep into Wspace that they got lost and then ransomed them for all their ships and pods or I wouldn't lead them back out.[b] I made 7 billion ISK in ransoms in 40 minutes.

You don't get it do you?

Mining ore in a belt in competition with other miners trying to avoid gankers and thiefs hauling the ore to a station avoiding gakers where there are free factory slots and ideally a cheap office producing ships finding somewhere to sell ships at a good price is all done in competition with other players - hence it is PvP.

Add to that wardecing your competition, hiring mercs to gank their miners and haulers so they move from your space and it is even more obvious.

Now, you may also undercut their orders and fill all factory slots an buy up all the offices at the station to make them leave your market alone.

How cannot you se that it is all about players competing with players - what we usually call PvP?

Everytime I see someone call market-spreadsheet-wars PVP it hurts my brain.

Just what exactly isn't PVP with this ridiculously stilted reasoning?

So you're assuming that the people undercutting you on the market, and occasionally buying your stuff and selling things to you, are not players?

The things you listed, for one, since none of them have anything to do with players. As for in-game activities, very few. That's kind of what makes EVE a PvP game: you are always competing with other players over limited resources. You have no instances or shards to ensure that what you want will always be available to you and that your pursuit of something are separate from other people's pursuit of the same thing.

There are tons of games that are designed in such a way that what you're doing does not interfere with what other people are doing. EVE is very purposefully designed to ensure that what you're doing always interferes with other people, making every last activity (except maybe clicking the GÇ£request missionGÇ¥ and GÇ£complete missionGÇ¥ buttons) PvP in some way or another.

you are always competing with other players over limited resources.

I appreciate your kind words. I really do. But the only thing that CCP understands is money, and the only thing I can do is vote with my cash and take it elsewhere. Frankly, I think it would be an interesting exercise to study how much money CCP makes per person, over the lifetime of that person playing the game, and see just how much money is spent by the older (in Eve play time) players with multiple accounts and long term accounts, vs. younger players that play for a few months and drop it.

I think that the data would show that in the long run, older players end up spending much more money over the lifetime of their playing the game than the hordes of new players.

But that's not what Eve is about. Eve is about PVP. And until CCP fixes that, it's not worth subbing. Such a waste.

Some utter crap

Why do you even play EVE? I am asking because from your description of EVE you don't seem to like it that much. Maybe you are in the wrong place?

You somehow interpret my not accepting a delusionally open ended 'I got there first! Where ever that is...' definition of PVP as me not liking EVE? It'd be interesting if only it made sense.

From your ranting it looks like you rather play a game where everything was sold and bought via NPC buy and sell order so you wouldn't have to deal with all the market PvP. Guess what, that is not EVE.

Mineral prices, ships and for example ice products are directly affected by PvP in EVE. Sometimes by player cartels such as OTEC that has spiked the price on technetium and Hulks, and sometimes by direct intervention in the belts which tripled the price of oxygen isotopes for a long time. And part of the price increase in minerals is due to hulkageddon. Resources are not unlimited in EVE. If they were what do you think the price of a Hulk would be if there were infinite number of them on the markets?

In EVE you have to adapt to circumstances like those mentioned above and also to direct competition in your market. At least I have to sometimes rethink my plans when I notice that I can't make a profit from selling a specific poduct in a specifik market because someone else has interfered.

You don't seem to appreciate these things. But these are the things that make EVE stand out among MMOs.

So what are you doing in EVE?

'Competing' for a rock of veldspar is just as meaningfully interactive as .01 isk-ing a market order. You stole those sells from the competition you say? So what! You also stole that veldspar rock from anyone who might've wanted it. Is every auctionhouse in every online game PVP now because you bought that magic sparkly pony before someone else did? In EVE we have a fancy market and can do that in both directions, yay!

I've got bad news, resources aren't limited.

Thats why the ice interdictions didn't cause a rise in cost of ice products. Oh wai...

Reading sentences comprised of words to extract the ideas and expressions contained within appears beyond you. I'd recommend you forget everything I've said, except you apparently already have.

You essentially claimed that resources are unlimited in EVE and that resource and market PvP is meaningless. Well, that pretty much disqualifies the majority of what EVE has to offer. That is why I asked why you play EVE. Maybe you don't know?

A proper response usually comes afterwards, but I suppose if it's provided in advance that's okay too.

Link?

The funny thing is, my theory of what happened is fully in line with yours, but for some reason, you absolutely must believe that I'm only blaming Incarna, or that I'm only blaming PvE, when I said something quite different from the very start. This is why I'm calling you prejudiced: because you get so angry over what you think I'm saying that you fail to notice that we're largely in agreement.

WeellGǪ it's not really my fault if I have to ask repeatedly for people to produce facts to prop up their fantasies, and if they continuously fail to do so.

GǪexcept that the Gǣeverything elseGǥ is also PvP in EVE, and that all of it is rather dependent on combat to have any meaning or purpose. Eve is about PvP through and through, and offers it in a huge variety of forms to appeal to almost any kind of mindset (except the Gǣleave me alone and let me grindGǥ one).

You essentially claimed that resources are unlimited in EVE and that resource and market PvP is meaningless. Well, that pretty much disqualifies the majority of what EVE has to offer. That is why I asked why you play EVE. Maybe you don't know?

I read a post earlier about some 3 year player binning his character because he was suicide ganked and then lost his Golem (LOL) to Concord because he "shot a Noctis" (i.e. he was an idiot and made a huge mistake).

I'm an 8 year+ player (I've lost count to be frank) and I've had at least two accounts subbed at a minimum for the entire 8+ years. This month will be the first time in 8 years that I have no characters in training.

Why? CCP has continued and will continue to make Eve less lethal. CCP continually makes Eve a safer place, easier to survive, with fewer opportunities to die horribly as a result of your mistakes. Essentially, they've dumbed down the game, and continue to do so.

When I was a new player, Eve was incredibly lethal. Jump into a .4, get your face blown off. Rinse, repeat. Your life span was usually dictated by how long you could hold your cloak at a gate. This part of the game was what kept me coming back for more. Extreme risk, extreme danger, extreme loss if you make a mistake.

Eve PVP is now garbage. It's not that the balance is that bad, or the mechanics are terrible. That part of the game is just fine. It's the inability to have non-concentual PVP. 99% of the time, if you get a fight it's because either A) the other side wanted to fight, or B) the other side made such a huge mistake that they ignored all signs of danger for 10+ minutes while you 'snuck up on them' in broad daylight, broadcasting your presence in local. Anyway, I digress.

With every change, CCP has removed risk, weighted the balance towards the defender and generally pampered those players who otherwise would have been murdered like sleeping baby seals.

Maybe one day the game will turn the corner and CCP will start making it more lethal again. I seriously doubt it, but it might happen. Until then, it's looking less and less likely that I'll find it worthwhile to log back in. It's sad really. CCP has finally managed to pummel my fanatical enthusiasm for the game into mush. I've been transformed from Eve evangelist to apathetic apologist. And the worst part is, all the other aspects of Eve have never been better: graphics, new ship models, missile trails, interface updates, market improvements, industry, invention, etc. etc. etc.

But that's not what Eve is about. Eve is about PVP. And until CCP fixes that, it's not worth subbing. Such a waste.


***EDIT***

Some addendum:

This post isn't about gate guns, or high sec or low sec or whatever. The players focusing on issues such as these are behaving like a person running at speed and looking straight down at their toes. The focus should be at the horizon, not at the base of your feet. Think bigger. Think more fundamentally about how the game is constructed and how it's (so poorly) organized for PVP and how fundamental changes in gameplay can radically improve the game over the long run. CCP keeps placating you with tiny improvements and distracting you with changes designed to generate controversy and discord.

So no, this isn't a "Goons ruined Eve" thread. It's not a whine thread. I'm just voting with my wallet. The only thing CCP understands.