Sounds fair.

Yeah... Surely you pay their sub with RL money.

If you don't buy PLEX for your buff alts, the price of PLEX would be less for single account players.

Unless a large percentage of the Elite players are paying for their buff alts with real $ (unlikely) then get ready for the off-grind nerf.

Making them ongrid would still be cooler.

Just learn to dualbox a bit better and you're fine

You know if off-grid boosting was nerfed then more CS pilots would be needed in fleets=your character just became more valuable than before. Then if you decide you don't want it anymore, sell it, I am sure there are plenty of buyers then.

Just saying.

I don't think anybody would really want a pilot that can only fly a tengu, with no gunnery or missile skills what so ever, or any shield/armor skills, or barely any fitting skills.

Or if they do they won't be willing to pay much.

You need to train more than just leadership to fly a CS.

They would be worth more than they are now.

I'm pretty sure an OGB alt will be worth more before the nerf, rather than after the nerf.

OP is totally right. Remember how CCP never nerfed Falcon range and so everyone still has a Falcon alt?



Long-term game balance is far more important for CCP's bottom line than short-term alt subscriptions. CCP isn't dumb and recognizes this. Off-grid boosting is going to be removed and yes, your alt is going to become useless.

It will happen, once CCP figures out how to make on-grid-boosters viable while nerfing off-grid at the same time.

thats not a hard fix.

make it so links only effect ships on grid with them, and they cant be activated inside a pos bubble, and buff the warfare processor sub on tech 3s so they have a comparable or better tank than a CS. If you fit a proper tank to a CS they are already pretty damn hard to kill if you have enough logi to keep them alive.

Making them ongrid would still be cooler.

Just learn to dualbox a bit better and you're fine

Alot of people whining about off grid boosters being OP and unfair, even though they have been around for a very long time.

I don't think CCP is ready to pull the plug on off grid boosting, because the fact of the matter is ... There many accounts being plexed and paid for just so they can provide the boosts.

CCP is a business afterall and it isn't good for business to be making changes that will reduce their income. I for one don't really feel too strongly how this matter is resolved, but I will unsub my OGB toon if they remove off grid boosting. Thats $15 a month less income for CCP. I'm sure many other OGB alt owners feel the same.

I have a reasonable solution though.

If I worked at CCP I would do the following:

1. No boosting inside a POS bubble (this is just downright unfair)

2. T3s can only boost for around 5 pilots or so, limiting their use to small gangs only. Buff to small gang warfare, which is never a bad thing. Unless you are a blobbing noob.

3. Fleet Command ships keep their 3% bonus, but also can give bonuses to the entire fleet. Maybe even buff their survivability a bit.


POS whiners are happy, Small gangs are happy, and command ship pilots can perform their role without T3s getting in the way. Unsubs are minimal, and gameplay/balance/whatever is fixed.

How would it affect Mining Fleet Boosters? You frequently get an Orca on Station or a Rorq in a bubble boosting for several wings of Miners and Industrials, any change to the mechanics would affect them as well.

They need to swap the bonuses for the tech 3 and commandship. Tech 2 is supposed to specialize, while tech 3 is supposed to be generalized (so under this assumption vulture>tengu, but that's not the case). I trained for a vulture on my main but I decided to say f*ck that and got my alt into a tengu.

If you made this change it would really hurt tech 3 cruiser boosting and buff commandship boosting. Also, I want to fly my vulture again.

You do know you can train for it too and have one as well right???


You fcking retards haha

A lot of thinking and decisions making at CCP's place from someone thinking he matters

Alot of people whining about off grid boosters being OP and unfair, even though they have been around for a very long time.

I don't think CCP is ready to pull the plug on off grid boosting, because the fact of the matter is ... There many accounts being plexed and paid for just so they can provide the boosts.

CCP is a business afterall and it isn't good for business to be making changes that will reduce their income. I for one don't really feel too strongly how this matter is resolved, but I will unsub my OGB toon if they remove off grid boosting. Thats $15 a month less income for CCP. I'm sure many other OGB alt owners feel the same.



I have a reasonable solution though.

If I worked at CCP I would do the following:

1. No boosting inside a POS bubble (this is just downright unfair)

2. T3s can only boost for around 5 pilots or so, limiting their use to small gangs only. Buff to small gang warfare, which is never a bad thing. Unless you are a blobbing noob.

3. Fleet Command ships keep their 3% bonus, but also can give bonuses to the entire fleet. Maybe even buff their survivability a bit.


POS whiners are happy, Small gangs are happy, and command ship pilots can perform their role without T3s getting in the way. Unsubs are minimal, and gameplay/balance/whatever is fixed.

Bad posters dont recognize that the entire cluster is the battlefield and if a booster at a POS is a problem for you its due to you not having the imagination, intellect, willpower or resources to deal with it.

OP is totally right. Remember how CCP never nerfed Falcon range and so everyone still has a Falcon alt?



Long-term game balance is far more important for CCP's bottom line than short-term alt subscriptions. CCP isn't dumb and recognizes this. Off-grid boosting is going to be removed and yes, your alt is going to become useless.

Well, you are wrong. Leadership skills would become more valuable since demand would increase by a lot. I am not knocking your ideas or anything but just knocking that part of your argument because it is wrong.

edit; actually, I would knock on your suggestions too if I had the time.

thats not a hard fix.

make it so links only effect ships on grid with them, and they cant be activated inside a pos bubble, and buff the warfare processor sub on tech 3s so they have a comparable or better tank than a CS. If you fit a proper tank to a CS they are already pretty damn hard to kill if you have enough logi to keep them alive.

You mean like they won't ban bots, since they're paying customers or they won't nerf datacore farming, since many people had datacore farming alt accounts and it had been around for a very long time? I'm sorry but your 15 dollars aren't any more important than anyone elses and if you think it buys you a nerf shield, you're delusional. CCP is making the best game they think they can and occasionally changing things just to keep the game interesting. Threats of account cancelation are heard with every major change to the game and are ignored unless they reach massive numbers. On the other hand well constructed counter arguments can change their minds every time.

They need to swap the bonuses for the tech 3 and commandship. Tech 2 is supposed to specialize, while tech 3 is supposed to be generalized (so under this assumption vulture>tengu, but that's not the case). I trained for a vulture on my main but I decided to say f*ck that and got my alt into a tengu.

If you made this change it would really hurt tech 3 cruiser boosting and buff commandship boosting. Also, I want to fly my vulture again.

Stop dreaming, eventually stop taking those things getting you high it might help to face reality: off grid boosting is going to change, and those changes you will not like them doesn't matter how much you dream.

Be reasonable, be a big boy and stop complaining.

I like your ideas, but your premise that CCP wont do anything about the problem is flawed. Or have you forgotten the 1500+ (I'm not sure what the current number is) of RMT accounts that have been banned. So, it is NOT a money issue, more likely a resource issue. I am sure they would love to fix this along with all the other things they have already fixed and are continuing to fix. It might make it into the upcoming patches, who knows.

I don't think CCP is ready to pull the plug on off grid boosting, because the fact of the matter is ... There many accounts being plexed and paid for just so they can provide the boosts.

Well, hopefully CCP realizes that this makes their "player base" (in quotes, as it's often one guy with 10 alts) very fragile.

If that one guy quits, for whatever reason - work, family, illness, loss of interest, better game, etc - they will lose not one account, but ten. If this happened on a large enough scale - like in case of a better game - the population could collapse to unsustainable level virtually overnight.

I mean, we're being given numbers like 450 subscriptions. Does that mean 450k unique individuals? Probably not. It likely means 450k paid/PLEXed accounts. Suppose an average EVE player has 3 accounts. Which I think is not too far from the truth. That means there's only 150k actual players. That's a pretty tiny and fragile population, as the Incarnageddon dip last year showed. It could easily fall 10% or more at the drop of a hat.

In other words, if CCP are smart, they will change game mechanics to encourage MORE PEOPLE, not more accounts. Current off-grid passive boosting encourages more accounts. Which in turns drives away people. I myself am pretty unhappy with being handicapped unless I use an alt account to boost myself. It's not enough to make me quit yet, but in the back of my mind it's yet another minus against EVE. Which I feel is a huge mistake.

More people is always better than more accounts.

Eh, i hate small gang off-grid boosting more than anything.

Umm... Why it's so difficult to just train CS5?

I'm sure someone has already said this: both sides can have OGB's. What is the big deal? It's fair by it's very nature. Anybody can train the skills, buy the hulls and mods. I'm not seeing what the problem is.

The OP points out the issues between T3 versus Command ships boosting, but that's a different issue of fairness based upon training times and functionality. I mean, if you are one of the people who trained command ships, I can see your beef.

I'm sure someone has already said this: both sides can have OGB's. What is the big deal? It's fair by it's very nature. Anybody can train the skills, buy the hulls and mods. I'm not seeing what the problem is.

The OP points out the issues between T3 versus Command ships boosting, but that's a different issue of fairness based upon training times and functionality. I mean, if you are one of the people who trained command ships, I can see your beef.

Why is it difficult to read a thread and understand every viewpoint on the matter?


Sorry if I'm being harsh, but you really should take a look around the thread and find out why the problem can't just be solved with training one skill.

Limit the T3 to less pilots so small gangs who use these aren't crippled/nerfed. But huge fleets would require a CS to get bonuses as the T3 cannot provide to everybody.

Because EVERY SHIP should need to be on grid and be in the danger of combat to affect the combat!

Did this really need asking?

Yeah, limit T3s to squad only. Ok, we have enough Tengu pilots with perfect leadership so we put one into every squad.

Why it's so difficult to see the problem?

Yeah, limit T3s to squad only. Ok, we have enough Tengu pilots with perfect leadership so we put one into every squad.

Why it's so difficult to see the problem?

So In fleets to 256 your going to have 25 off grid boosting tengues? Good luck with that Idea. What the OP is saying about limiting boosting T3's to squad mmand only is an option that would limit them. The problem that someone else has mentioned was that boosting T3's are damn hard to probe out. If you made it so that Gang links or better yet the Command Processors so that the more links you fit onto a T3 after 1 makes it easier to scan would be a great idea. My 2 cents

If they nerf the falcon so that if you want to get the same effectiveness you'd have to bring 20 falcons, does that make the falcon OP?

If they nerf Scimitars so that you need 20 scimis instead of one to do the same rep, are scimis still OP?

Is Tengu T2? No.
Is Falcon T2? Yes.
Is Scimitar T2? Yes.

Any reason why T3s should remain better at boosting compared to command ships? T2 battlecruisers (aka command ships) should be best at boosting.

Why do you think falcons are still viable and not just removed from the game? People pay subs for these alts, and this creates more revenue. They are not short-term alt subs either, I've been running my alt for more than 2 years.

CCP needs money bad since they are working on two games now instead of one, did you forget that dust 514 existed? Oh wait, theres also world of darkness. Why do you assume CCP doesn't want $?

And long term balance is more important than subs? LoL. Do you not remember how long hybrids were horrible for? I for one didn't even expect them to ever balance that weapon system. And It isn't "balance is good" It is "greed is good

Not everybody agrees with you. I personally don't.

This simplifies the game to derp mode IMO.

I think probers being a valuable part of a fleet fight is a good thing. If you want to find that OGB, then get yourself a decent prober. Stop trying to simplify the game :P

I agree with you on this, you are right.. I don't think this is possible though. I'll explain...SNIP...EvE Online, In general ... Is just easier / maybe more fun when you have multiple accounts. It's just how the entire game is, and changing it would change the game drastically IMO, so it will never happen.

Good luck with your life.

Also, post with main.

I don't recall saying CCP doesn't want money, I recall saying that they make more money by fixing their game.

Why not just put a limitation on the boosters themselves that prevents warp for a short period of time and prevents use inside a POS?

While in a POS you cannot boost, fleet boosters do not work while in warp and you cannot initiate warp for 5 seconds after disengaging fleet booster.

This will require the booster to be in system and provides ample time for anybody trying to scan for him to scan him down and kill him. No more invulnerable fleet boosters but still off grid.

1. No boosting inside a POS bubble (this is just downright unfair)

your idea would be the death of the rorq. many people pay for accounts just to use a rorq to support their mining operations. but since the beast is very expensive, has no defense of it's own, and must be in siege mode to do it's job, your idea would guarentee that no one could use the ship again.

Luckly is not your opnion that matters but of the main game designers.

And I can return your statement.. if you want to kjeep your booster safe PILOT IT! Stop tryign to dumb down the game to the point where you don even need to be on keyboard!

T3s being better at almost everythign than dedicated ships is whats wrong.

Alot of people don't think the game is currently broken. Me included.

T3s seriously need to not be able to fleet boost better than a dedicated command ship, its ridiculous, so yeah limiting their ability to boost large gangs AND be offgrid AND be almost unprobable needs to go.

For the people whining that command ships cant be used in main fleets, really? 200k ehp not enough? Command ships are fine and fully usable but should be limited to on grid. T3s being better at almost everythign than dedicated ships is whats wrong.

Basically what I'm suggesting is that bringing command links on grid requires a fundamental change to the Field Command Ships themselves.

Stop trying to simplify the game

Maybe this is what is needed and included in those BC T1/T2 rebalance, since those WILL be rebalanced soon. Of Grid boosting harms more the game than it's good. People never stop arguing "get friends" "L2P with friends" "omg miner = bot" but then when something is about to change like OGB some players always talk about "small gang" and very little about the solo/tandem dudes with the obvious OGB.

There's a noticeable difference in between being good at the game and being good at exploiting game failures or bad mechanics in need of changes, to take advantage over other players. OGB is one of those bad mechanics that need severe changes, the only thing I can hope it's properly done and not like giving ASB's to shield tanks and throw a RAH bone to the underdogs.

I'm all for having boosting ships on the field. Let it be CS, T3 or BCs with a link. Yes BC's can fit links and before the introduction of T3 cruisers this was the way the roaming gangs used to do it.


Have the boosting ships on the field AND have them to target the boost-receivers like Logistic ships do. If any change would make running fleets more complex and interesting, then this would be it. It won't be an alt-job anymore, so you'll have to train that one into a Retriever pilot...

*edit: Also the argument of having boosters forced to be on grid as a nerf to small gangs is complete bull excrement. Where were you before the T3 cruiser?! Ohwait... Retriever pilot....

They should just make the boosting less effective if not on grid.

- 100% boosting effectiveness to any fleet member on grid, 66% effective on any vessel off-grid..

or something like that.. would make all parties happy, make both options viable and give us tactical choice.

how is that?

our 5 man frigate gangs run with loki links.. why don't yours?

Are we trying to address the issue of off-grid boosters being unbalanced, or new players not being able to afford links.. I'm confused.

Small gang vs blob, small gang should be less effective..

Obviously I appear to be misunderstanding the point your trying to make.. But given your condescending attitude, I'm not particularly interested in continuing the conversation.. My 2c is in so I'm done.

Small gang vs blob, small gang should be less effective..

Obviously I appear to be misunderstanding the point your trying to make.. But given your condescending attitude, I'm not particularly interested in continuing the conversation.. My 2c is in so I'm done.

I contend that a small focused gang should be more effective than a random assortment of **** thrown together. Specialization is the only way that smaller groups are ever going to compete against larger groups.

Unless you'd like the game to just boil down to an auto resolution battle sim where them bringing N+1 ships simply self destructs yours.

-Liang

Ed: And frankly I find it peculiar that you should talk **** about my "attitude" when you're the one that starts laying the smack on.

Numbers usually aren't that close.

Like what I saw today. 200 of them vs 400, 500 by the time they ran off.

I contend that a small focused gang should be more effective than a random assortment of **** thrown together. Specialization is the only way that smaller groups are ever going to compete against larger groups.

Unless you'd like the game to just boil down to an auto resolution battle sim where them bringing N+1 ships simply self destructs yours.

-Liang

Ed: And frankly I find it peculiar that you should talk **** about my "attitude" when you're the one that starts laying the smack on.

It's going to depend on numbers. I think the real issue is that a lot of people who think they fly a small, organized gang really aren't that great themselves.

I don't think CCP is ready to pull the plug on off grid boosting, because the fact of the matter is ... There many accounts being plexed and paid for just so they can provide the boosts.

CCP is a business afterall and it isn't good for business to be making changes that will reduce their income. I for one don't really feel too strongly how this matter is resolved, but I will unsub my OGB toon if they remove off grid boosting. Thats $15 a month less income for CCP. I'm sure many other OGB alt owners feel the same. .

For every extra account for the sole purpose of off grid boosting I bet there are 10 people who leave eve, or never play because they are not interested in "alts online."

For every extra account for the sole purpose of off grid boosting I bet there are 10 people who leave eve, or never play because they are not interested in "alts online."

Dear CCP please make sure that everyone always brings equal numbers and ships when they come to fight me and also make sure that they never lie and also I would like it if nobody could pvp me unless I want them to thank you very much.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Yeep&page=2#kills

If structures got off grid boosts you would not like them either.

1:10 is pretty harsh, but 1:1 or 1:2 I feel is a very realistic number. Same goes for absurd mechanics like neutral repping, they really don't help. But it all falls under the "Alts: how they are harming EVE" header.

Though I still firmly believe the current skill system with offline training are the main culprits. I was once asked how long it would take to max out turret skills. I asked "All of them? For all races and ships?" and the guy said "Yeah." I simply shrugged and said "Two years?" The guy let out a guffaw and I never saw him playing EVE ever again. The sad part is, I was almost spot-on, I checked later - 45 mil SP in turrets in total, at 2.5k/hr would take 2.05 years. Nobody is going to make this kind of commitment to an MMO. Being able to fly all ships perfectly? 5.5 years. Seriously? I may be dead, or married, or both in 5.5 years.

That's because you deliberately scared him away from the game. You should have described Eve's skills as like a series of cups. There's a relatively small base down at the bottom that is shared between them all, but any particular ship only has so much volume you can pour into it. Thus, the absolute SP "cap" is actually pretty low because I can only fly one ship at a time.

This means that it's fairly easy for a noob to fill up a few cups well enough to compete with me on a level playing field.

-Liang

Yeah I think that is true of skills alone.

But then when we throw in the booster alts well, obviously he will no longer be competitive until he decides to dual box one himself.

1:10 is pretty harsh, but 1:1 or 1:2 I feel is a very realistic number. Same goes for absurd mechanics like neutral repping, they really don't help. But it all falls under the "Alts: how they are harming EVE" header.

Though I still firmly believe the current skill system with offline training are the main culprits. I was once asked how long it would take to max out turret skills. I asked "All of them? For all races and ships?" and the guy said "Yeah." I simply shrugged and said "Two years?" The guy let out a guffaw and I never saw him playing EVE ever again. The sad part is, I was almost spot-on, I checked later - 45 mil SP in turrets in total, at 2.5k/hr would take 2.05 years. Nobody is going to make this kind of commitment to an MMO. Being able to fly all ships perfectly? 5.5 years. Seriously? I may be dead, or married, or both in 5.5 years.

Whilst I agree on the fact that there's severe demand for a buff to small gangs, their main problem is the complete lack of objectives for small gangs in the current sandbox except for general 'air superiority' or simple kb-padding.


CCP does a fine job at the bigger ship Gëá better front , but entirely fails to find advantages for smaller numbers compared to bigger ones.

Regardless of that, CCP should remove any kind of offgrid boosting to avoid having more and more people heading down that road. It's an entirely flawed mechanic that by principle is just as bad as offgrid remote repping would be and it shouldn't exist in the game (I'll spare from me copy-pasting the countless reasons why offgrid boosting is a horrible mechanic and point you to this thread instead).


It needs to be removed ASAP.

It is in no way equivalent to off grid remote repair. It should not be removed until the fundamentals of the system are fixed.

-Liang

T3 offgrid boosters - if used and fitted properly - can be flown absolutely risk-free, offering bonuses to a gangs shield, speed and sig-tanking as well as their ewar capabilities without any range limit.
...

It is in no way equivalent to off grid remote repair. It should not be removed until the fundamentals of the system are fixed.

Remotely boosting the abilities of local reppers is every way equivalent to off-grid remote repair. Where is the extra shield boost coming from?

The fundamentals of the system are broken: you can boost from inside a POS shield where you cannot be shot.

Oh cool a killboard link, lets compare kill death ratios. Whats the most isk you ever killed in one go? What ratio would I need to join your corp? I love kiillboards they let me know exactly how much I'm worth.

Ed: Also, I think your post looks too much to null sec for determining why people PVP in small gangs. In low sec, we do it because it's fun. That's enough reason to play a game right?

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your post because we both know it's a complete bullshit strawman argument. However, the part I quoted is just flat wrong. People will probe out and attempt to kill you even if you "use and fit it properly". You have to remember that there's no such thing as "unprobeable" anymore.

-Liang

If the pilot flying the alt is remotely competent, he will know what distance to set his D-scan to, hit that every now and then and as soon as he sees probes in a certain range, he warps to another safe. People losing their offgrid T3 boosters are either incompentent, multiboxing on one screen, lazy, dumb, drunk or asleep - most likely a combination of all.
.

That's because you have some weird obsession with everyone having their own booster alt. The simple fact of the matter is that a gang only needs one. I frequently fly without booster alts because I don't like the performance penalty during frapsing.

-Liang

Ed: Look man, I know you'd say and do literally anything to nerf off grid boosters. Better yet, you'd like to see everyone with any leadership skills trained wake up with 20k SP tomorrow morning. But let's try to keep the complete nonsense out of the thread. Just this once.

I play the game to have fun, yes. Up until 3 years ago, I played it for killmails - pure highscore hunting. Getting a KM just satisfied me and I wouldn't get to sleep without at least 1 kill.


I made my isk elsewhere and used my other sources of income to fund that.

But that's exactly what's wrong with the game - people fly around in lowsec in expensive ships with absolutely no purpose, running high sec l4s, production chains and market alts to fund it, which renders the pvp entirely meaningless.

From a tactical/gameplay perspective, there's almost no point in running small gangs.

Call me a moron, but I think that's just a terrible design flaw in a so-called 'pvp-focused game'.

I don't know what you mean. I have no issue with leaderships skills. You are the one resorting to nonesense in order to support what is obviously a bad mechanic.

The OP is right these are alt accounts. It doesn't matter how many are in your gang somone better be dual boxing an alt or you will be at a severe disadvantage.

If they had to be on grid then people would have their mains use their leadership skills and use command ships in battles. It wouldn't be relegated to alts.

That's because you deliberately scared him away from the game. You should have described Eve's skills as like a series of cups. There's a relatively small base down at the bottom that is shared between them all, but any particular ship only has so much volume you can pour into it. Thus, the absolute SP "cap" is actually pretty low because I can only fly one ship at a time.

This means that it's fairly easy for a noob to fill up a few cups well enough to compete with me on a level playing field.

-Liang

Nah, it's not as bad as I described, I shortened it a bit to make a point. I explained that to be good at any one thing (especially small frigates) it doesn't take that long. He still didn't feel it was worth it, waiting months or perhaps even years to see some content. At the time I was aiming for a Marauder for L4s, and he asked how long my skillplan was, and I had about 180 days left. And he said that on average he plays an MMO for 3-5 months tops, unless new content keeps being addes. It's how most players are these days, which is why I maintain that until CCP stops and smells the 2012, the game isn't going anywhere good. What worked questionably well 9 years ago just doesn't work now.

And realistically, the cap you speak of, the absolute one, still takes a couple of years to train for even for a frigate, if you want to absolutely max everything, including targeting, capacitor, navigation, gunnery, drones, etc., to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of a ship. If you only go to IV, yeah it's quick. But all those 5, 10 and 20% do add up compared to V. That's the second major minus for most new players.

The point I was trying to make is that most people are not willing to commit to 3 months, never mind 3 years. Let's face it, there hasn't really been an MMO recently where to max out something the time frame is measured in years. Last one I can think of is Lineage II, where at higher levels you would maybe make 1% of a level in an hour. But even so, with some EVE skills even at 2.5k SP/hr you are still only gaining 0.13% of a "level" an hour. This may have worked in the good old days, when MMOs were few and far apart, and there wasn't much choice. But in today's MMO market, it just doesn't fly.

But back to the topic - it's true that not everyone has a booster alt. But there's a pretty huge difference between having one and not having one. And yes, it can be dealt with - such as bring more friends, bring your own booster alts, etc. But there's a concept from other MMOs that people also understand very well, called a "pocket healer". That is, a dedicated healer character attached to your main, usually played by another person and not an off-grid alt sitting at a POS like in EVE. And everyone knows that going solo or even 2v2 against someone with a pocket healer is a losing proposition most of the time. And in EVE, this is done with an alt. An alt means a second account. A second account means $30/mo instead of $15. Which isn't a killer by itself, but when you add to that the huge minus that is the skill system and a huge handicap a totally new player starts off with, it becomes too much for most players. Hence EVE's "growing" 450k subs, most of which are alt accounts. Not healthy, IMHO.

So this is you basically admitting that it's not zero risk? Cool, glad we could clear that up.

-Liang

Yes - I'd call figuring out the distance at which your T3 booster can be probed to a warpable result by an all V scanner in a fully t2 grav-capacitor-rigged T3 and a full lg virtue-set along with Poteque hardwirings and using the value in dscan whilst hitting that on the second screen every now and then basically risk-free.

That's what I meant with 'zero risk if used properly'.

Must be my bad English, I beg your pardon.

[edit]: I'm al little confused though - would you consider determining the value and hitting dscan risky?

So what you're saying is that if the person sits there staring at their T3 booster "alt" all the time and pounds D-Scan they can avoid getting probed out? Holy hell, that works in a target painted Marauder too.

-Liang

Ed: I mean it about the Marauder too, BTW. I was running Sansha missions in a Vargur and never got probed out despite the fact I was frequently painted. :) Just to be perfectly clear, I was running missions in hostile space and had standings to nobody at all. And they still couldn't take it down.

So we can agree there's no risk in fielding the T3 booster using the methods above.

And yes - I use 3 screens, triple box and am actually quite used to frequently hit D-scan on all of them.

Not really. I'd say that anyone's risk goes down as their ability to pay attention goes up. That doesn't make the activity itself riskless. The reasoning behind your "risk free" claim is the same as saying that mining in low sec is risk free - everyone will just point and laugh at you.

-Liang

Not really. I'd say that anyone's risk goes down as their ability to pay attention goes up. That doesn't make the activity itself riskless. The reasoning behind your "risk free" claim is the same as saying that mining in low sec is risk free - everyone will just point and laugh at you.

-Liang

As a matter of fact, despite disagreeing with you quite often, I usually appreciate your posts, but this comparison is just bad.

Comparing the effort , risk and reward to keep an interdiction nullified t3 booster with a cov ops cloak (-¦ a dissolution sequencer if you don't want to probe on it and a varying number of ECCMs depending on your ship and greed for links) sitting in a proper safespot with that of sitting in a belt in a mining barge must be a bad attempt at trolling.

I don't think anyone mines at a belt in low sec? I was assuming they were at a grav sig.

-Liang

I don't think anyone mines at a belt in low sec? I was assuming they were at a grav sig.

-Liang

Considering it takes me (qute a novice prober) 30 secs - 1 min to spot a guy in a grav site, I think that example is still far, far off from comparing to an anti-probe T3 booster setup.

Imo, OGB falls in the same category of Falcon, pocket cyno alt, RR neutral alts: super cheesy garbage that a good PvP game should never let happen. These things get quickly put on diminishing returns or nerfed in other games.

Small gangs need goals and benefits, but T3 offgrid boosters have to go.

Again, you mistake my intent. I'm fine with off grid boosters going... after they fix the problems that's going to cause.

-Liang

- T3s have a better bonus to links because they were supposed to fit just 1-2 of them - if people wouldn't gimp their fits by fitting tons of command links on them to abuse them, they'd be perfectly viable on grid in a proper gang.
- Off grid bonuses as a mechanic are just as stupid as having off grid RR. You think the latter is completely dumb idea? Congrats, but then you can't advocate for the former, because it's basically the same thing.
- After the initial investment, they only offer benefits for absolutely no drawback, making them a necessity sooner or later. We already have people flying T1 frigs with their own private T3 offgrid booster just to appear ~elite~. Great for real noobs trying to get their feet wet solo...
- People keep mentioning it helps small gang warfare, but basically, they're a force multiplier, which by definition benefits the larger number more than it does the smaller. Also, they (especially POS boosters) are easier to use for the defending party than the aggressors - hence, they discourage roams into hostile territory.

- To avoid Grid-Fu after they were made to be on grid only, they should only work withn an invisible 200 km radius bubble and shouldn't be able to be activated from within POS shields.

Yes - it will leave ~the blob~ even more overpowered than it already is, but nonetheless, OG-boosting is a flawed mechanic. However, people would still be able to fall back to 100 mn AB ongrid T3 boosters that are just as hard to hit, but at least people know what they're up to.

Fixing the issues with numbers>everytthing might take CCP forver and tbh, I'm afraid it will never happen.

I tend to think it's bad form to just wreck a working system on the belief that the new state might be better than the old one. There's absolutely no reason we can't both have what we want in a reasonable time frame.

-Liang

Ed: To be clear, I'm not asking them to fix the problems with Numbers > All. I'm asking them to fix the problems that prevent gang boosting ships from fitting into their intended gangs. Ideally, they could address several other problems at the same time - like the consequences of a lost fleet booster and T3/CS balance.

I don't think the curent state is a 'working system'. Eager noobs invest plex into grinding up tengu boosters - that may be in CCPs best interest in the short run, but definitely not in the long run.

If I wanted to, I'd just take my frig alt, hook it up with a set of pirate implants, pop a booster, have one of my higher SP characters in a safe in a boosting+probing T3 and just train up some ECM skills on another character that already has caldari cruiser and recon @V for a falcon alt in case I still manage to mess up.

My K/D ratio would be awesome I guess. Unfortunately, there are nerds playing this game really being that lame, popping noobs all day long. I don't call that 'a working system' - at least the nob should see the booster on grid.

I agree there should be a cheap, remotely viable frig-gang booster - probably a new destroyer.

However, fixing off grid boosting would be a start to fix the T3/CS imbalance, because current 6-link off-grid 5%/lvl boost abominations wouldn't work as well anymore. More nerfs to T3 boosters certainly will be necessary, just as well as boosts for fleet CS, but imho, it's a good first step.

I tend to think it's bad form to just wreck a working system on the belief that the new state might be better than the old one. There's absolutely no reason we can't both have what we want in a reasonable time frame.

However, fixing off grid boosting would be a start to fix the T3/CS imbalance, because current 6-link off-grid 5%/lvl boost abominations wouldn't work as well anymore. More nerfs to T3 boosters certainly will be necessary, just as well as boosts for fleet CS, but imho, it's a good first step.

It is not a working system. It adds virtually nothing to the game, and forces people to avoid specific systems, corporations, and players because fighting someone who is boosted is just not worth their time.

You seem a little jumpy.

Does the idea of structures getting gang boosts make you nervous?

You're right, the idea I might have to spend 3 minutes of my 5 minute siege cycle shooting things instead of 2 keeps me awake at night.

Stop demanding Eve be balanced around your stupid, old fashioned idea of fair fights. And stop trying to play an MMO solo.

I play the game to have fun, yes. Up until 3 years ago, I played it for killmails - pure highscore hunting. Getting a KM just satisfied me and I wouldn't get to sleep without at least 1 kill.


I made my isk elsewhere and used my other sources of income to fund that.

But that's exactly what's wrong with the game - people fly around in lowsec in expensive ships with absolutely no purpose, running high sec l4s, production chains and market alts to fund it, which renders the pvp entirely meaningless.

From a tactical/gameplay perspective, there's almost no point in running small gangs.

Call me a moron, but I think that's just a terrible design flaw in a so-called 'pvp-focused game'.

So what you're saying is that if the person sits there staring at their T3 booster "alt" all the time and pounds D-Scan they can avoid getting probed out? Holy hell, that works in a target painted Marauder too.

-Liang

Ed: I mean it about the Marauder too, BTW. I was running Sansha missions in a Vargur and never got probed out despite the fact I was frequently painted. :) Just to be perfectly clear, I was running missions in hostile space and had standings to nobody at all. And they still couldn't take it down.

You are the one who seems demanding.

I will play eve as i like, and give my opinions, as I like.

Actually its you guys that are demanding that boosting be changed because of your multiple misinformed arguments and exaggerations.

Confirming that most the arguments against OGBs are misinformed and bad.

Like nuren said, if you sit there pounding d-scan the entire time, what do you think will happen to your main that is fighting?

You trade attention to your other account to prevent your OGB from dying and instead your main gets tackled and you die, or you don't time a shield/armor boost correctly and suffer.

Right so becoming good at immersion breaking alt dual boxing becomes the key to eve. Allot of people don't think this sounds fun.

Yeah, and those people can stick to their simple minded blobs.

If OGBs are removed, small gangs will just get steamrolled by larger ganks who have claymores which are protected by 4 Logi ships. Good luck trying to kite anything or even escape, because they will have faster speeds and longer points.

If boosting for T3s are limited to a squad or even less pilots, then the small gang can atleast do something other than just die, they have a small edge over the claymores boosts.

Lots of people who fly solo or in small gangs don't want to dual box an alt to stay competitive against other solo pilots or small gangs.

Now if you want to have small scale combat against another solo or small gang you are at a severe disadvantage if someone in your gang is not dual boxing one.

Why is it that you feel this acute pressure to dual box when I don't - despite the fact that I have 2 perfectly skilled leadership alts for any given occasion? I'm not trying to say the system is great right now, but you present this as a doomsday case that it isn't really.

Like I said, we need to fix the core problems relating to gang boosting and then we can move them on grid.

-Liang

I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.

I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.

I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Yeah that sucks, but I'm not talking about solo or small gangs vs small gangs.

I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.

FW plexing is a great example of how to get allot of great small scale pvp. It could be improved allot. But it really works well at getting allot of good small scale fights. But the boosters are just shitting this up. Go into a medium fw plex in a cruiser and find a hookbill there guess what you will probably die before you can even target the hookbill long enough to get your drones on it. (they will just be popped anyway assuming they can catch the enemy).

How is this any different to someone officer fitting their frigate?.

Eve is not, has never been and will never be balanced around 1v1s. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you get into a fair fight in eve someone screwed up and that holds true at any size of engagement.

If a hookbill is killing you before you can even lock it, something's very wrong with the way you are PVPing. This kind of hyperbole is just ridiculous.

-Liang

Yeah well I am not the best pilot but I'm not the worst either. Even though we hang out in the same part of new eden, I think you haven't fought the same pilots, with the same boosters that I have.

I don't know what you mean by "fair fight." Nor do I care. But I have been in tons of good fights where my error in piloting cost me a kill or a ship. You may not realize this can happen in eve. If that is the case you may want to explore some new territory. Small scale pvp can be allot of fun.

Actually, I have fought the same people you have - and more. I just don't complain about it and make excuses like you do.

-Liang

And we're back to "I'm better at pvp than you so my opinions count for more".

If the pilot you're attempting to 1v1 has fleet bonuses then its not a 1v1, its 1v2. Its irrelevant whether that 2nd pilot is an alt or not. You're complaining you can't win a 2v1 when the game gives you plenty of options to make that a 2v2 or even a 3v1, whether you go make some friends or bring an alt, the choice is yours.

As for the officer mods, you could fight a frigate with officer mods and never know, much like you might never know if theres an offgrid booster. You're not entitled to know every factor involved in every fight, nor should you be. Is officer fitting your frigate also "cheating"?

I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.

Ok there are allot of differences in the risk reward of using officer mods. But the main reason I don't mind people flying with officer mods is I could do it too - without having to dual box alts.

Really I actually like allot of the bonuses boosters offer. I think they add another layer of complexity to eve pvp. I wouldn't mind them if I could get them without dual boxing an alt. For example let me have buy minmatar crew that gives the same bonuses as a loki booster. Then I won't mind - even though they will cost isk. At least I could compete without dual boxing. I just hate hate hate hate dualboxing in a game that I am supposed to be having fun in.

At this point you're trying to argue that having more accounts (whether controlled by one person or not) in an MMO shouldn't give an advantage and thats going to be a tough sell. I've done plenty of small scale pvp in the (admittedly distant) past, even some solo stuff (ask me about taking out an entire BoB t2 frigate gang in an Oneiros some time) but if I'm flying solo and I lose to 2 people thats my fault for engaging outnumbered, not the fault of the 2 people for breaking the non-existant sanctity of the 1v1.

It doesn't matter if those 2 people are 1 guy and an alt or 2 seperate physical people, its still 2v1. All other things being equal 2 on grid ships piloted by different people should beat 1 on grid ship and 1 offgrid booster.

So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.

So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.

Not emptyquoting.

Nice job just pulling things out of your ass and assuming things.

Fighting outnumbered isn't easy, without OGBs it will be damn near impossible.

And I don't care about my ego at all, I don't know where you are getting these random accusations. And I never brag to anybody about how l33t I am or how awesome I am at PvP. I don't like it if somebody doesn't post on their main, but that is nothing like that.


If you can't come up with a logical argument and instead resort to making things up and insulting then I can't take you seriously.

You can't counter my arguments on the forums so you try to slander me.

This is so funny.

And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Nice job just pulling things out of your ass and assuming things.

Fighting outnumbered isn't easy, without OGBs it will be damn near impossible.

And I don't care about my ego at all, I don't know where you are getting these random accusations. And I never brag to anybody about how l33t I am or how awesome I am at PvP. I don't like it if somebody doesn't post on their main, but that is nothing like that.


If you can't come up with a logical argument and instead resort to making things up and insulting then I can't take you seriously.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?